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Episode 165The Mentors We Need with Mark KelbelWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/xHCtJCyaxxAListen NowDescriptionIn this episode of Finding Peaks, Chris welcomes back Mark Kelbel, founder of Freedom Golf, to explore how mentorship, community, and purpose can transform lives both on and off the course. Mark shares how Freedom Golf has grown into far more than a nonprofit—it has become a place where young people, especially those navigating the foster care system, find guidance, belonging, and hope. Together, Chris and Mark discuss the importance of positive role models, the foundation that 12-step principles provide, and why recovery flourishes when people discover a purpose greater than themselves. The conversation dives into the grit that comes from persistence, the impact of surrounding yourself with the right people, the role families play throughout recovery, and why healthy boundaries are essential for lasting growth. Whether you’re in recovery, supporting someone you love, mentoring the next generation, or simply looking for ways to make a difference in your community, this episode is a powerful reminder that meaningful change rarely happens alone.

Talking Points1. Introduction to the Show 2. Freedom Golf in the community 3. The foster care pipeline 4. Mentoring the youth 5. 12-step and the foundation 6. Purpose in recovery 7. Community is the key 8. Persistence grows grit 9. Having the right people in your life 10. Family involvement during recovery 11. The importance of boundaries 12. Final thoughts Quotes

“I tell them too, look, you may not think you are capable of anything, but you are capable of something.” – Mark Kelbel

Episode Transcripts

Episode -165- TranscriptsAnything we can do to keep them from underneath the vi on I25 in Nevada is a very important endeavor for us. It’s difficult for families to remind themselves because it’s scary that we’ve never been here today before. This day has never existed. You may not think you’re capable of everything, but you’re capable of something. And so try to get something on your plate that you’re working towards.
Hey everybody and welcome to another amazing, enthusiastic and heartfelt episode of Finding Peaks. Joined today by a dear friend, colleague, someone that was on episode 138 and we talked about some fearless golf. And when you’re talking about fearless golf, you can’t talk about fearless golf without introducing Mark Clayball. Mark Clayball, welcome to the show, my man. Hey, thank you very much, Chris. It’s an honor to be back. We’re doing a lot of exciting stuff with Fearless Golf. It’s, you know, the the need never ends. Yeah. And so, off we go. I love that you’re doing that. I don’t know if Coupe told you, and I know I haven’t certainly, but we’re getting into the adolescent space. Yeah. So, well, we could definitely work together even more cuz that’s where we’re at. a aside from we do help vets and we’re you know one of the things that um we are focusing on is homelessness in the veteran population but where we started where we continue to grow is kids that age out of foster care and just trying to keep them out of homelessness and I don’t know whether you know or not Chris but the recovery rate for a kid that ends up at the mission that is not in an intensive program is 4% and that’s such a low number that we are doing everything in our power to partner with the place, the tiny home villages, uh, partnerships like that that keep these kids from going to the shelter. Yeah. And so that’s where we’re at. That’s really, really cool. And I appreciate you updating me on that. I was actually meeting with a guy the other day that I was went through the foster care system and he wants to create a nonprofit along those lines just to be some connective tissue cuz correct me if I’m wrong but when when the foster ends these these they just drop off the face of the earth. Yes. They have no resources. It astounds me that there isn’t more of a ramp up to when these kids actually get out of foster care. Fostering Hope is another good organization in town. Love to meet your friend. see if we can’t collaborate and um partner on whatever we can do to help the kids. But it’s a it’s an ongoing issue with, you know, the anxiety and the depression and the uh certainly the drug issue, certainly addiction, it all plays into it. And um you know, the chicken or the egg, what came first? That’s a good question. Mhm. Um but we’re we’re we’re doing whatever we can to be a resource for young people to give them a path out of where they’re at. And so and I have a soft spot for those kids, Chris, as you’ll recall, cuz they don’t have anybody to advocate for them. They don’t have a coach to say, “Hey, you’re close. Hang in there. You’re on the right track. Keep doing what you’re doing.” or hey don’t you know you you don’t you don’t have any business being within 500 miles of that kid or be careful about you know certain decision-m things that you do or be able to challenge them appropriately with employment or a a uh a worthy goal a diploma uh a certification even even everyday life stuff like a a physical fitness um regimen things like that where they could be proud of themselves something to build on yeah some meal health victories. Yeah. Amen. Some confidence, you know, and I I love what you’re talking about here. I was meeting with a clinical director a few weeks back. There’s two sides to this coin really because when we talk about like, you know, if I’m sending my brother to treatment, that’s that’s a path. If you’re sending a family member to treatment, that’s that’s probably the same path. the people we’re talking about helping, we’re talking about healing and and working on the depression and and working on the mental health issues. Those resources are abysmal in comparison, I would say. So, and I I think too that what I found is when these kids get around each other, they they kind of celebrate those ailments. In other words, if bipolar comes up, kid will want bipolar even though he may not actually or she may not have kids. Yes. Yeah, they want to have that excuse, some kind of that that tag. And so part of my thing is to get them on their individual journey and to have them think independently even above and beyond of what their program says. I want them to start forming in their own mind what they’re capable of. And I’m, you know, you got to nibble away at this. You can’t, the old saying goes, you can’t take it in one bite. But it’s a it’s important that they’re on a path. And I tell them it only matters if you’re standing still. If you’re moving forward in any way, God bless you. That’s a good thing. Mhm. How does it start? Like is it is it a is it kind Does it kind of go chronologically? How do you engage with these young individuals? I know they reach you through website and things of that nature, but we do it all through our community partners. And some we end up with um individuals. We’ll get a school counselor that calls us. We’ll get a church, you know, maybe a pastor, youth pastor, somebody that calls us that says, “Hey, we have a candidate for your program. We want to work.” And then the the partnerships are important because um I don’t know whether you have ever heard of Cliff Hunter, but Cliff has a has a nonprofit called Diaonia Project. He teaches kids the trades. Okay? And so we have a lot of his kids. He has a lot of ours, but we try to partner with getting that skill set in bred in them. We work closely with Shelley Jensen at the tiny home village to get them temporary housing. Peggy Bird at the place where there’s they have they need a safe space for a certain amount of time until they gain enough confidence to go out into the world. But that time is limited and also it’s it’s necessary that they use it wisely. And again, anything we can do to keep them from underneath the vioc I25 in Nevada is a very important endeavor for us because what we find is is small steps, but the more a kid functions and goes home and wakes up sober again and then, you know, that builds on it and then they’re able to take on a little bit more, whether that be getting a diploma, whether that be maintaining a job, whether that be um I want to rekindle a relationship with my biological parents or something. And I I’m big on that. We help provide those things. And so, we’re just trying to add value. Golf is simply a reason to get together. And for whatever reason, it has proven to me through the years that there’s an allure to it. I can’t explain it. Kids that would never whiff a golf course. If they make a 12ft putt, if they get an eight iron on the face and it goes up in the air, it it makes the kids happy and they want to come back. And so we we don’t have any trouble with uh attendance. That’s for sure. Yeah. Do you guys work with community partners that also have housing for these individuals when they transition out of foster care? Yes. Okay. And that’s where the place in the tiny home village. It’s so important. They got to have a a place they can go to with that that’s not too chaotic. That’s where trying to keep them out of the mission. It’s no place for a young person there. Yep. No, not at all. Yeah. The reason I ask is we’ve I’ve started working with some friends of mine who’ve gotten into the behavioral health space specifically for sober living. They’ve been working with some nonprofits and some of the nonprofits they’ve been working with and they go buy the real estate and the nonprofit just leases it from them. But the nonprofits are getting funding per house for the rent through the federal government. So they’re getting these grants for their nonprofit. I think he told me today one of the guys in my jiu-jitsu gym, they’re getting five or $6,000 a month per property. So, he’s opening up these properties for this demographic that otherwise wouldn’t be possible. Yes, it’s pretty cool stuff. It’s cool stuff and it’s a lifesaver in many regards because it they don’t have to worry about, okay, well, I don’t have money to pay rent. M um and so that but it it gives the nonprofits, it gives somebody like Shelley Jensen who does the tiny home villages enough incentive where she doesn’t have people breathing down her neck for for payments and costs and things like that where she can actually operate on the human level and try to help these kids. Yeah. That is really cool. I’m sure she’s working with it as well, is um I was meeting with another Medicaid provider out of um Arizona and they do sober living um through Medicaid and they were telling me that they get their their guests um acquainted with resources in the community that can help them pay rent. So now they’re they’re paying a little bit of their bill as well. You know, we’re talking about mental health victories, just little stuff like that. I remember, you know, I wasn’t quite when I got out of treatment, I was on Medicaid. I was on access through Arizona insurance and I was grateful for the time period that I had it and I remember little things for me um seemed monumental like you need to get a driver I got to get an ID card. Mhm. You know exactly you know or like I got to go to social security office and do what? Yes. You know I don’t how do I fill out a thing for food st like yes these are my and but I remember when I did them I remember staring at my first ID. It wasn’t even a license. I’m 22 years old. I should have a license but I had an ID in years. Yes. for good reason because they would have got me, you know. But um I remember looking at it and just like having so much pride. Yeah. Stupid [ ] like that, man. But those are accomplishments. I even talked, you know, a kid bragged to me one time, Chris, about how he actually ordered a pizza with his debit card and that was the biggest deal. He actually was able to rattle off the number and the expiration date and the security, you know, all of that jazz. But he he was that was an accomplishment for him. M and so yeah, look and as you know, you need momentum in life in those little baby steps that you keep going forward and okay, I feel better about how I can function on a day-to-day basis. I know how to do this, this, and this. And I like I tell the kids, only matters if you’re standing still. If you’re nudging forward, good. Mhm. You got it. But and and I I tell them too, look, you may not think you’re capable of everything, but you’re capable of something. And so try to get something on your plate that you’re working towards, whether it be employment, whether it be a certificate or a class or um even like I said, a physical fitness regimen. Hold yourself to it. And I’m always saying, do what you say. Do what you say. Do what you say. If you tell somebody you’re going to do it, do it. You know, if you tell somebody you’re going to text them back or message them or call them, do it. You know, emails, little things like that. Don’t be don’t, you know, don’t let that stuff slide because that’s a habit that will come back to bite you. Mhm. So, they told me when I got to AA, they’re like, “Do what you say and say what you mean.” Yeah. I was like, “Huh?” He’s like, “Do you get what I’m saying?” I’m like, “Say it again.” Did you Did you like 12step? I was a huge advocate for 12 steps and I still am in a way. Um, I did it for six years militantly from the age of 22 to about 27 and a half, 28 years old, right about the time I opened Peaks. And I was um a member at Crazy Birds Group, Alcoholics Anonymous, Prescuit, Arizona, the Unitarian Church. Never missed a meeting. I was told in 2008 that the only way that people like me get to stay alive and operate in this world is to go to meetings. And I didn’t I didn’t really like that option, but they said the other option was jail. I didn’t like that option. So I was like and I had been in jail and I was facing a lot of prison time. And so I was like, you know what? I’m going to I’m going to do this 12step thing to prove it doesn’t work. And I had a sponsor and I had a therapist and I went full steam into it. And you know, in servitude of others created a lot of purpose for me. Purpose that I otherwise hadn’t felt probably my entire life. And so by the time I got a year sober, I’d never been so proud of the guy who was holding it up. I was 23 years old. You know, I meet a lot of 23 year olds with a year sober. I felt very proud and I figured I’d just keep doing it. I really liked that I felt important in in in the 12step way of life. I was of value to people and it was in this community and I was needed. And when I wasn’t there, people asked me where I was and they wanted me there. And I hadn’t felt in a long time um that I was like needed or wanted anywhere. In fact, I’d felt more discarded than anything else. And so for me, it was like, “Holy [ ] I’ll go there just smoke cigarettes with my friends. This is the best place on earth.” And then I got a coffee commitment and I met a lot of really good people, man. Like people that really cared about me and they showed me a lot of care when I otherwise just hadn’t experienced that in a long time, not even from my family. And I was hooked. And I swear to you, it’s the only way to get sober. You could do all that clinical [ ] but you got to come here and work these 12 steps. What I’ve learned throughout the process in the journey of recovery of almost 18 years in July is that I believe in a multitude of ways to the common goal, which is sustaining lifelong recovery. I I think we need to take the rigid gloves off a little bit because younger people have more access to information than I did 20 years ago and they’re just not doing the rigidity as well as people like me did. I’ll tell you back then I said I needed that [ ] I need a swift kick in the ass. A lot of kids aren’t saying that these days. They don’t understand the benefit of that, right? You know, I needed to be just somebody really needed to tell me that I respected to shut up. Mhm. But that was 20 years ago. I couldn’t just jump on YouTube and like do a Bernay Brown and you know like whatever you know a lot of access. So I think we need to ensure I did this talk um the Colorado Champions dinner and I was talking about the five fingers of the glove and we’re talking about the integration of substance use and mental health treatment which is very near and dear to my heart. Um and and I think it comes down to human connection and where humans are feeling connected and where they can connect. um bigger than anything a provided me a community that empowered me to do tremendous things. I wouldn’t have been able to do tremendous things without the community. Today I have a multitude of communities that empowered me to do tremendous things. You know, jiu-jitsu, I have a work family. Um I have an endurance family. I have a mountain hiking family. I have these people in my life. I have close friends that I meet with weekly. I feel very insulated and supported by my community. 12step way of life taught me the value of that. Um, but I believe it can come in any different form or facet. So, I asked you your son, it was like if you ever has he ever done jiu-jitsu because if you did it and he liked it just once, he could get addicted to it. And I’d be all I talked to a lot of people about them. I pretty sure it’s about getting healthfully addicted to new habits, you know? So, I have a I have a very broad approach to the way that I look at things now. And I think what’s tough about folks that are experiencing substance use issues is you don’t meet many people in this world who have more shame inside of them. Mhm. So when you when you come across a human who has that much shame inside of them, you know, whipping somebody with shame, right, just makes more shame. And that can be difficult to not do because substance abusers make you want to smack them sometimes, you know, even the ones we love, you know, myself included. So, it can be really, really tough and it could be a delicate dance. And I’ve been encouraging a lot of people lately and I’ve been trying to do it for myself is like how how might I love this individual into recovery, you know, instead of get this individual to do what I want them to do. Yeah. You know, and that’s that’s the that’s the fine line we all walk. And as as you well know, Chris, I have a personal attachment to the addiction crisis because of my son. And it’s a very difficult road. Um, and you want him to have some say so in his own recovery. On the other hand, um, you’re also you also have the benefit of history of what has not worked in the past and so you try to avoid that. Um, but I the community thing is an interesting point that you make because like in your case when you were in the 12step program, I’m sure that the last thing in the world you wanted to do is disappoint the people that had meant so much to you that you were close to in the in the 12step. You didn’t want to go to a meeting and say, “Guess what? Guess who relapsed.” At the end of the day, too, to your point, at some point, I wanted to make him proud. Yes. And that’s what and then that passion. My son has been a very difficult person to find a passion for. He’s talented. He’s smart as heck, but a passion for like a physical activity um of any case. And and so even even if I don’t I wouldn’t care if it was comic books, something that he cared enough about to not partake. Mhm. And thus far, sadly, that’s, you know, we haven’t been able to get that. Mhm. But it’s a um it’s a neverending quest for peace. I you, as you know, Chris, you wouldn’t trade the headsp space with somebody going through addiction for anything. They’re trying to fill a space. And you’re absolutely right about the shame, the guilt, the, you know, the the unworthiness of a life. Are you kidding me? Yeah, I’m trying to get to tonight, right? You know, I I can’t What are you talking about? A master’s degree or meeting the right girl or, you know, or um you know, walking the the PCT or something, you know, I mean, it’s just it’s not going to happen for me, you know, I don’t have it in me, right? And so the expectation for those people goes in and they’re truly trying to get to the night, just try to get through the day. Mhm. And then of course when they get around each other it’s even worse. Y and um I think that’s the power of those community based resources is cuz it’s been this like battle for me personally and professionally throughout my entire the last 20 years is like how do we how do we get to presence? Because when I’m here with you and I’m drawn in with you and like it’s just like if if and when you can draw your son into a deep conversation, you can tell this side of him turns off and this other side turns on. if only for a moment. But there’s no suffering in the present moment cuz I’m engaged and I’m present with you. And so I think these community based opportunities, whether it’s jiu-jitsu cuz now you’re fighting for your life and people are trying to choke you. And um if you’re if you’re what was so great about mountaineering for me is I would do really difficult routes and then there’s something scientific about it. My doc the docs always talk about it, but I don’t know what it is. But there’s something about when you’re doing something like that requires all of your focus and all of your attention. your brain doesn’t have the space to think about all the [ ] Yes. And so you’re dialed and you feel so alive. And that present moment is something that we tinker with up at the facility with with guests. We have people come in who are experiencing bipolar and they’ll be walking around maybe they’ll be experiencing a manic episode and I’ll take stride with them because you can just they’ll put in steps man over and over and they all have Fitbits and so they do steps and and I can find when I walk with these individuals sometimes and I can get them just for a moment like you like dogs. Yes. That you want to engage like I I have dogs. I have a burn. this thing and you can see the guests will engage out of their anxiety or whatever they’re going through or their episode for a moment of clarity and maybe it’s 10 seconds but it’s beautiful and there’s no suffering and they pop back out and they’re like, “Hey, you got me, man. I’m walking.” Yeah. But then it’s it really is about slowly but surely for me and I’m not doctor therapist or anything. I’m not like never been published or anything. But I I think it really is about building on those moments of clarity and presence to to go from 10 seconds to a minute. Impatient treatment, right? 24 hours of care. Now we’ve got a week, we’re really present. Hopefully by the time we leave inatient care, we’re really present because the noise is turned down and then we’re going into this outpatient thing. But it’s about introducing a multitude of recovery resources or resources in general that curate presence and community. And I think the more we can walk with people into and that’s the that’s the difficult thing I think sometimes is the gap um where the transition takes place. Uh it’s almost like if you could have a friend finder. Yeah. You know recovery friend finder like that walks with you. Like I don’t want to go into a gym. When I first went to a gym I’m scared to death. Yeah. People are nuts. You got people like me in there acting nutty like put putting their leg by their ear and like whatever, you know? It’s like and and so I get that, but I want to walk with people into a gym. Yeah. I want to introduce them to everybody cuz I feel really comfortable in there now. Yeah. You know, so there’s things like that and and and gaps in which we can inform resources in that I think can be really supportive just to helping people feel a little bit more part of cuz it’s one thing to be like, “Hey man, go catch a fish.” You know, my business partner always say he’s like, “But let me teach you how.” Yes. You know, walk with me. Watch me fish. Do you ever work with Colorado Motion here in town? Motion? No. It’s a therapy place up off Garden of the Gods that does teaches um they they take kids on hikes, mountaineering, things like that as part of their counseling. That’s cool. Yeah, it is cool. And that and so we’ve tried that. Mhm. You know, it did not stick. But there’s it’s that headsp space as you say, Chris, to get somebody out of where they’re at. And I even think a book can do it. If you’ve got the right author, the right the right subject matter for the individual, it can take them out of that. Like if you ask my son, explain your condition to me, he will rattle stuff off to you in the most impressive fashion. You’ll think, “Man, this guy’s like a PhD in in addiction.” Yeah. He knows it. Yeah. Um but yet in the moment, he has no no ability to like the impulsivity of bipolar. Of okay. Um I’ve just been in treatment for a year and a half. I’m doing great. I come out. A buddy I met in treatment asks me to come over. I go over to his house. He says, “Hey, I got all this stuff.” And you say, “Oh, sure.” So, you just throw away in a moment a year and a half’s worth of sobriety and without even thinking about it. Sure, I’ll do it. You know, no, it’s probably not a good idea. And so, it it’s that ability to say we don’t want to do it. And that that of course, Chris, as you and I’ve talked about his his coming home scares me because of the triggers and his familiarity with some bad actors. Mh. And so at least there but you know it’s as you and I talked earlier too Chris it’s a matter of getting them to engage in their own recovery and take pride in it and actually enjoy it y and um until you get there though it’s hard and so you know brain chemistry body chemistry they’re used to inducing highs with coke or some other drug and now that’s no longer available and so they got to live with this medium um sort of mood Yeah. And they’re not comfortable with that. So it’s it’s an ongoing effort. And so like what we do with Fearless Golf is we’re constantly trying to find a path for somebody that gives them a reason to get up. Whether it be music, whether it be um I want to study um games. I want to study um geography. I I have an interest in We got to find some interest. What’s your goal? If I could if if you could do anything. Well, it’d be go to see my mom. I haven’t seen her in a long time. Okay. Where does she live? She lives in Corpus Christie, Texas. Let’s get you a plane ticket. Let’s get a hold of your mom. Let’s see how that can work. And these kids are often times like most of the kids you’re working with have experienced probably tons of abuse, tons of trauma, multitudes, right? Yeah. Okay. They’re starting from a very fragile position. Um, two things though. It’s a double-edged sword. Yes. They’re they’re going through hell. However, I tell them, I’m like, “Look, if you can get a handle on this, if you can round the corner, you’re going to have it way over your peers because your peers have not had to deal with this tough stuff. And at some point in their life, they will. And their knees are going to buckle because they’ve never had to develop the grit, that selfbelief, that underlying I’ll be okay.” Yeah. Type stuff because they’ve never had to deal with it. You You’ve put, you know, you’ve had to go through hell. You know, like I’ve had kids that tell me they’ve lived in 50 foster homes. I’ve had kids that were that we took from underneath the vi over there. Yeah. We’ve had kids that have come out of um terribly abusive situations where, you know, we have we work with a young lady. She was here 14, stepmom beat the hell out of her, raped on the west side, ended up I mean it’s a miracle she’s alive. A miracle. M. And so all we do is try to cover their flanks long enough and encourage really we’re we’re we just try to love on them and try to let them know, hey, look, we’re here for you. We want to spend time with you. We value you. When your birthday comes, we’re going to get you a cake. We’re going to have people over. We’re going to celebrate you. We’re going to celebrate when you get a diploma. We’re going to celebrate when you get a job. We’re gonna just find reasons for you to be happy and proud of yourself and keep nudging them along. So, it’s little little constant checks. Yeah. You know, what can we do to help? Do do you need a outfit to go interview in? Let me take a look at your resume. Let’s let Do do you need transportation somewhere? Can we can we help facilitate that where it’s not constantly on a kid’s mind? See, they’re used to dealing with all of it all the time. And so, they do one of two things. either they give up or they take the bare minimum. And so we’re trying to get them to expect a little bit more out of life. Yeah. And as I say, Chris, golf’s just a vehicle. It’s just a reason to get together. It’s called fearless golf cuz I know golf. And so, you know, and I tell kids, look, I like it because it’s visible. You know, if I see you on a golf course, I can tell three fairways over whether you’re having a beer or not. I love that. You know, we don’t call it fearless pool. You know, where Yeah. where you’re in a dark room and maybe you got some privacy and doing some things you shouldn’t. So, it’s it’s and I want them to be in an environment where it makes them uncomfortable at first. Mhm. A lot of these kids never whiff a golf course. If you and I went down the street like on Tahhon downtown and you saw four of our kids coming down the same street, you might say, “Hey, let’s go across the street.” They’re rough, but those are my favorite kind. And I’m sure they’re yours, too. Cuz you can make the biggest influence. You have the biggest influence on them and they need you, but they are the most reluctant to accept the help. Yep. Yeah. And you bring up something I think really unique to at least something I’ve experienced. You know, we talked about the gym earlier, but even the golf course, man, the first time I went out in in a T- box to swing a golf club, first off, you’re at like a nice place. Yeah. There’s all this what I feel like is a lot of stigma, a lot of judgment, a lot of hoyy toy. And I can remember experiencing I was allowed to be there, my brother worked there, all this stuff. You’re helping individuals not only be able to see their value like in the world, but overcome a pretty serious stigmatism. Yes. And you’re walking with them like I’m talking about where you’re not like, “Hey, go golf. Let me know how it goes. You to tell them your ticket 242.” You’re like, “No, man. Hey, I got the tea time where we’re headed out. We’re doing the thing.” I’m with you with them start to finish. And if I’m not with them, we have one of our volunteers that are with them. We have an adult with every group. Um, but you’re absolutely right, Chris. Even to the point, even to the point where, hey, look, you order that bag of box of chicken fingers over there. Here’s some money. Go pay for it. Go say thank you. Go take a seat where you think you should. You know, cuz in the beginning, the kids are all like, “Hey, can you order me this?” I’m like, “No, you’re going to order it. You can do it.” Yeah. You know, I know it’s a little bit different environment. It’s just like a restaurant. Just go up there and tell the lady what you want. Say, “Okay.” And and so just again that little nudging and even even okay how do you listen for your tea time? You know how do you know what that what does the tea time mean? You know when what when what how what are your expectations in regards to dress? What are your expectations in regards to um when you show up preparation? Are you there right at the time? Are you there a little bit early? Are you there and how long should it take you to play? And then what what are your boundaries? Like I said the one thing I like about golfers boundaries. Mhm. Okay. You know that if you’re going this way, you don’t you don’t aim over here. That would be dangerous. It’s kind of what we’re doing for life. A lot of metaphors with it. Yeah, man. And then, you know, bigger than anything for me, too, is like we’ve gone back to the last time around the episode is like the sunshine, fresh air. You know, I always tell Cass because I’m I’ve played a lot of rounds. I wouldn’t say a lot of rounds of golf, but compared to someone who’s never played, I’ve played a lot of rounds of golf. And I always say I want to I want to get better as I get older and I want to live on a golf course. But when I sign up for the uh membership, it’ll probably be expensive. And what what I’ll have to get in there is that I can no shoes barefoot whole time. Even if it’s Pebble Beach barefoot feet cuz I think about it, man. Like there’s this music festival I go to and I think about it every year like 3 months leading up. I’m like put my feet in the earth. It’s so good. And so I’m wondering if there’s golf courses. Wouldn’t that be something? Like you’re all dressed up. You got your shirt tucked in. You got your hat, you know, but we’re going we’re going shoeless. You imagine on the putting green. Oh, that feels so nice. You know what? That’s a great idea. I know the importance of grounding. Hey, in all of that, but don’t put us on the course. Don’t put us on the city course, Mark. As it stands right now, Chris, I don’t think we’d have too many options. I do think it’s a worthy goal. I think it’s something like that, you know, even if it was a community space like look, if you come out, if you want to wear shoes, great. If you don’t want to wear shoes, fine. That’s cool. You know what I mean? Yeah. Type of thing. Most people that are watching like, I wouldn’t want that, but you know, this is a Chris Burns thing for sure. Well, we have our new indoor golf space that we do use a lot of stuff downtown. Okay. And um it’s called City Golf. It’s inside the train wreck restaurant. I got four big, beautiful bays and it’s really cool. And we do a lot of nonprofit stuff in there for the kids, but they’re not required. They can wear I I’ve never seen them go barefoot, but I’ve certainly seen them in socks. Nice. And so it’s it’s a I think you were getting that going the last time, didn’t you? I probably was. And we’re doing fine. We got a long way to go. We’ve come a long way. But it’s one of those things where the kids feel comfortable and um it’s a good place for the for the sponsor adults to meet too where they can the kids are having fun and we’re all having a discussion on the on the various individual needs of each participant so we can address them appropriately. Are most of your participants right at 18? Mhm. No. You can age out of foster care at 15. No way. Yeah. Now, that’s weird. That’s odd. But I’ve I’ve worked with some 15 year olds through that. You’re too young. Yeah. But it I guess it’s legal. And they got nowhere to go. They got nowhere to go other than these places. And so they can end up there. But you know, with the no guard rails, with nobody covering your flanks, um it’s easy to end up on the street and so many of them do. And then, you know, then the then the anger sets in. Mad at the world. I don’t know what you know they don’t know which way to turn. And so what we try to provide is a place to turn and just so hey I don’t and I don’t have all the answers Chris as you well know I don’t all but I I I pride myself on knowing a few people and hey look is if this is what you need let me make a phone call for you um and let me see what we can do. And very few of them honestly are ready for employment. Most of them are not. I’d say maybe 8% are. Yeah. Um, and we’ll help them get introductory positions someplace that they can get their feet wet in the employment world and learn how to show up on time, work with a diverse number of people. Um, you know, basically be willing to organize their day. And so all of that’s important and that’s one of the measurements that we use for success or failure. But if you asked me, if you said, “Mark, what’s the one intangible measurement?” You you use to um you to measure a kid’s success, I’d say their confidence level. If I see it nudging up like Mark, I’ll take that on. I’ll go get him. Yeah. Hey, we need somebody to go get Jim. He’s he’s he didn’t have a ride in this today. I’ll go get him. I’ll be right back. And they do. Yeah. You know, things like that where you can tell, okay, he’s just performing. He’s just fulfilling a responsibility. He’s not looking to get out of something. Yeah. You know what I I found myself I spoke at Peaks last night, told my story, a version of it. I found myself telling everybody in there and I I feel like it rings true for the population you work with as well, is that for me, like I worked in a gas station, then I worked in treatment. So, I’ve just been doing this recovery thing half my life. And when we talk about success like a per like person being successful spiritually, mentally, emotionally, physically, monetarily, like the most successful people I have ever connected with. And and the next demographic would be a huge gap is is people who turn pain into purpose. Deep deep pain. People wrote a month, they had no chance. And so I wonder if you if if you’ve had the experience in working with some of these younger kids that that see the light and when they do, it’s been my experience that they have a way of dealing with life’s pressure. Mhm. In a way that is unbeknownst to regular people. Yes. Yeah. Goes back to the point I made about they’ll their ability to develop grit, a perseverance is amazing and what they can handle as far as gutwrenching problems and disadvantages and really unfair burdens that have been placed upon them by family situations or Lord knows. And it is impressive. Now, I’m not normally with them long enough, Chris. These kids get out at 24, where I could see them really truly bloom. And I haven’t been doing it long enough. I’ve been doing this since 19. Um, but I fully expect that. And I do I have had the pleasure of meeting people like yourself that did round the corner and learn to deal with it that are there’s one guy that comes to my mind in particular, which is my son’s sort of sponsor in Austin. a high energy, dynamic dude, bright to the nth degree, and fearless because of what he’s been through. Nothing nothing phases him. He’s like, “Are you kidding me? I’ve I’ve put myself through hell. I can handle this.” Yeah. And um appropriate risk taker now, but he does not mess with his sobriety. He is attentive to that. And his his um motivation continues to be his son. M he cannot stand the thought of screwing up and having his son suffer the consequences for it. But he’s brilliant. He’s like you. High energy, a lot going on. Can’t you know, let me take it on. Let me take it on. You know, in um in confident in that and yes, you’re right that there is it’s it’s an interesting thing with with addicts. I think that, you know, like in my son’s case too, I don’t know exactly what his IQ is, but I’ve had people tell me it’s way up there. And so he deals with things too that I certainly don’t. My IQ isn’t way up there, but I think like for him, it it it almost lends you like a Van Go. I think in a weird way those that intelligence level lends itself to some some unsettledness, even some mental I I hate to say insanity, but a little bit of discomfort when it comes to where you’re at. Well, I mean, at the very least, like extreme amount of hypervigilance and and weary, good word, hyper vigilance, you know, just kind of like skepticism. What about OCD? Did you suffer from that? Oh, yeah, man. My business partner came in the other day. He’s like, I didn’t know you had OCD. I was like, I didn’t either. Did I tell you I had OCD? He’s like, “Yeah, I can totally see it now.” And I was like, “I got OCD?” Yeah. Yeah. So, I quit. I I picked up a nicotine vape about a year ago. Our business was doing terrible, man. We were hiring and firing and losing money, and it was bad stuff. And I picked up this nicotine vape, man. It was so helpful. I was so grateful for it. But I quit 60 days ago. Yeah. 60 days ago. Let’s go. But in that process of quitting, I saw some OCD come up, man. I’m was like in the office. I’m like, I’m in the break room. I’m like, who even cleans this place, I’m like, you I’m throwing [ ] away all over the place and I’m like, and people are coming in. They’re like, you know, cuz anybody sees me, I’m picking up cigarette butts all over. Can I help you? I’m like, no, can you help me? You would have already helped me cuz this place is a disaster, you know? And I’m just like here and over here. And I’m in my office, man. I’m like putting the pencils over here and I’m putting the pens over here. I’m like any control that I can have I want. So at best I got a little bit of OCD. That stuff shows up. You know, you we talk about healing. That’s the goal. But that’s generally a long-term situation. But when you squeeze on a coping mechanism, it’s like when you got another one, you squeeze on that one, right? Until that healing takes place. And then I’m like, yeah, I can just kind of be with you a little bit better, you know? And that’s a that’s a hard place to get to that long term. But, you know, and it’s and it’s been my experience, Chris, that ADHD, all these kids have it. Um, they all have a certain level of uh antsiness. Mhm. Of Okay, can you go turn the light off over there by uh Grace? Sure. And then by the time they get over there, they’ll get, you know, glass of water or something. They’ll come back. I’m like, hey, forgot to turn off the light. Was I supposed to turn off the light? What were we talking about? Yeah, exactly. They just turn off the light like, “Hey, can you go grab me a Snapple out of the fridge here? Let me go get a snapp.” By the time they’re over there, they’re, you know, they look in the fridge and they shut it and just walk away. It’s like, “Hello, I’m Yeah. So, it’s it’s exactly it.” And bless their hearts. I It’s hard for me to relate other than I hate to see him suffer. and through my own personal experience with my son and as you describe Chris the level of shame, the guilt, the unworthiness, the the I don’t deserve anything. Um I don’t know where it comes from. I really don’t because you know like in my case his twin sister is you know on her way to being a nurse anesthetist and a high achiever and all this stuff. She does she doesn’t have the IQ my son does. Mhm. But yet his proclivity to turn to unhealthy substances um was his downfall. Mhm. It’s interesting because he doesn’t need to work on the stuff that his sister does, right? He doesn’t need to work hard at that at all. And that’s going to come natural. Got to fill this mental health, this substance use gap. Yes. And and I know but it’s it’s high risk, too, as we talked about. It’s scary. But when that gets filled, I mean, that’s the firm foundation with what? Community. Yeah. Great people. I say like I’m a consequence or a like vision of a a a great human to my right and a great human to my left. Even when I bowl even to today, man, like I prefer to go with bumpers. I just I I got to stay in the lane and I got to have really great people around me that are willing to say, “Hey, man. You’re getting a little bit out of who I know you are and want to be.” And those are really great friends. Yeah. Sucks to hear sometimes. I’m like, I’m not. Yeah, you’re right. But I need those people around me. It’s like, I know who Chris Burns wants to be today. And and that’s not in alignment with that. I’m like, for sure. Chucks out. You know, and I think the more people we can have that I look up to, that I care about deeply, that can speak life into me, the better opportunity I have to stay in that bowling lane. Now, you got to be more aware of that when you see it in other people than a person like me that’s never had an addiction issue for your ability to say, “Hey, look, you’re getting a little bit farflung here. Careful. Watch. You know, you’re walking a little close to the edge.” Mhm. Yeah. It’s really easy to see often times in just lifestyle changes far before anybody ever picks up a substance. It’s like I really believe like good outpatient integration like next level is like when they leave the impatient spot like when they leave Austin they have an appointment. We don’t do this anymore cuz we don’t do extended care in the way that we used to but we used to like if you were leaving our program you had a meeting with a sponsor, a therapist, the meeting place you were going to go to. And in fact cuz we were so 12step driven back in the day like you weren’t going home first. the plan. You’re going to the noon meeting to meet the sponsor. He’s taking you out to lunch. You might go out to dinner with the 12step group later and then you go home. They’re like, “But I haven’t seen my family in 3 months.” It’s like, “Yeah, but they’re not as valuable as this is, right?” you know, and so I think if we can introduce people throughout their recovery path or their afterare plan, some of these meetings, I think they got some things in their calendar to look forward to and that are potentially life-saving, mending, and and can fill a gap that otherwise is there. And there’s a steep fall. Do you have any recommendations, Chris, on whether a person would do better in a narcotics anonymous, an alcohol anonymous, you know, that type of wherever they feel comfortable. Yeah. Yeah. So, I went I went to a uh an AA meeting, one of my one of my first personal AA meetings. I used to go as a kid with my mom, but I was like cuz I I’m an addict and an alcoholic, but I like I to be like addicts a little more slick, you know? It’s a little cooler, especially when I was 22 when I was getting sober. Not like these old alcoholics. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So, and so I was in a closed closed meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. You guys say you’re an alcoholic. And there’s like 10 people. I was in Sedona, Arizona. And I was like, “Oh, well, I’m an addict. I couldn’t wait to [ ] up the meeting, right?” And um this guy goes around cheering the meeting and he said he’s you’re not supposed to cross talk. You can’t share at people. I’m 20. I was 21. This is before I got sober. And he said, “You know what you are? German Shepherd dog. I was like, “What?” He said, “Man, you’ll always be a dog. Doesn’t matter what kind of dog you are.” And I was like, “Damn, man.” Called my mom. I was like, “These people try to kick me out of AA, you know?” It’s like, but but to suffice it to say, what they were saying was it’s like, “It doesn’t matter, dude. Doesn’t matter.” I went to AA because the AA in Prescuit, Arizona was a lot better than the NA. The community, a lot of young people. Um, Colorado Springs, I’m not sure. I think AA has grown certainly in the last 12 years since we’ve been here. We got a lot of alumni in community. So is the dharma stuff. And so um I don’t think anything’s one better or another. I just think wherever there’s better recovery community, you hit that. Last I heard the AA here was a little bit better than the NA. How much say so do you think loved ones should have in a person’s recovery? In other words, locationwise, um, lengthwise, um, you know, how the the the the structure of a program. I mean, um, it’s it’s it’s I I think it’s it’s it’s similar to if you want to get an apartment with somebody in in early recovery. We we we have to have a plan. Mhm. We have a backup plan. We have to have uh an intermediary plan. The plan. Yeah. we need to insulate it with some of these, hey, like I want to support your recovery as well and like if this doesn’t work out in this way and it’s not successful, you know, can we agree to something a little bit different, a little bit more structured, a little bit more of this, maybe some of this? Absolutely. You know, getting some buy in. Hey, like I want to walk with you because I felt it necessary to share with you before and I just thought about it since you brought this up and it’s difficult for families to remind themselves because it’s scary. That we’ve never been here today before. This day has never existed. The past is weighted and can really influence this moment in a way that sometimes is fair and sometimes is unfair, but it’s certainly not present. So, we need to develop a plan in the present moment. I want to give you enough grace to meet you in the moment. You’re 23 years old in so many days and so many seconds right now. That matters to me. And being authentic with that, I think is is really really valuable. And it scares me. And and as your dad, I want you to know that like I’m not upset. I’m not pissed off. Even though sometimes I move to anger, I don’t know what to do. I’m scared. And man, I got nine and 10 year olds at home. I do this for a living and I feel like I have a lot of resources. That scares the [ ] out of me, man. It scares the [ ] out of me. So, I I can empathize with what what you’re walking through. Well, it does me, too. And see, my thing is, Chris is I’ve got other people in the family that I’m trying to protect, too. Mhm. And so his presence nearby is a ambient source of stress that is over the c over the long haul the cumulative is no good for anybody’s health. Yeah, because you’re constantly, oh god, now what? You know, you look at the phone, the time, where, the location, the um just the constant on your mind type stuff. And it’s always worry. It’s never, oh, I’m sure, right? You know, everything’s good. And so that’s been one of my things with um his recovery is look, John, I got to I have to think of other people here. I got to think your mother. I got to think your sisters. I’ve got my own I’ve got responsibility. Somebody’s got to pay for this stuff. Yeah. You know, and so I cannot have the distraction. In other words, I got to go off to work so I can have the financial resources to help you get better. And as you know, it’s not cheap. Um and so you’re doing the very best you can, although we’ve had a lot of people trying to do as much as they can. And I have absolutely no complaints with their buy in and their help in in any way. However, the reality is it takes time and it does take resources and as you said over the long haul. I mean you and I the 30-day rehabs for another day. Y but you know this is a longterm process. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe even looking into some, you know, Colorado is the place, then, you know, there’s some extended care resources as well for a little bit longer term. You know, that could be supportive. Cuz really what you want to do as a family is enlist the team and let the team do their thing. Yeah. Build it for them. Build it with them. Family really is like you’re at the club level at the Pepsi Center. Like he can hear you if you’re shooting a free throw. Yeah. Yeah. But otherwise, like he needs to hear the people courtside and the people courtside can’t be family. Uh and that’s the problem right now is you’re trying to you’re trying to do the family and then you’re doing the court side. Yeah. You know, and it’s difficult not to. Yeah. You know, but we want to enlist a team that sits courtside and then eventually who joins the coaches on the court is is is other team members. Yeah. And that’s my community. And I need to hear them yelling at me and I need to hear dad just clapping. So that’s the that that’s the delicate dance and that’s the process. It’s, you know, and it’s funny you bring that up, Chris, cuz I had this guy that I told you reminds me of you, who’s a very talented guy who’s had his own addiction issues, but who’s been clean and sober for a number of years, but he says, I’ll be the bad guy. Mhm. But see, in my as a parent, you’re thinking, look, I’m his dad. Mhm. I’ll handle it. Yep. Um, and you hate to hand that over, but I get his point. And I see it more and more now knowing him the way I do. Mhm. He’d be a hard ass. He’d be like, “No, here’s what you’re going to do. You’re not going to get that car back until you’ve proven to us that you are bought into the process of whatever. Your brain, your body is still adjusting your your equilibrium, your your normal level, you know, that type of thing.” We go through it a lot. We used to do like extended care for affluent young people, like really affluent young people. And families would come through and say, “How do I do it?” You know, “How do we manage this?” And like, “Hey, man. That’s your money. That’s not his. and I’m here to support your recovery, which is really dope. Like, you need the sober living. If and when your team tells me it’s time for the car, like, okay, here’s the car, you know, but I I have to I trust in the professionals. You trust in the professionals. We have a team that does this. Dad’s got to get back to being dad. Yeah. What do you think of a sober coach? I think it’d be great. Absolutely. I know some great ones in town, too. Good. And not only just in town, but in the Colorado area as well. I hear they’re very important. Yeah, he has one now. They’re not cheap either. No. Um, they’re not. But but if you can get him, you know, you start putting these people around him, too, and you’re like, you trust that guy? Yeah, he’s great. I do trust him. Cool. You know, then I trust him. Yeah. And you know, what does Daryl say? I I’m going to start removing dad from all this [ ] What does Daryl say? Sober coach. What is it? Is it What’s his feedback? I’m here to support you recovery. Where’s Daryl at? You know, take the pressure off of dad. Yeah, we got Thanksgiving dinner coming up. What do you think? What do you think about uh frequency of communication with with your with your attic love? I think it needs to be boundaries. Can’t be running Blitz Creek on the phone. You know, it’s not healthy for anybody, you know, setting a and what I mean by that is why don’t we set some meaningful time that matters aside? I say meaningful moments that matter matter the most. It’s kind of my thing. It just goes back into the presence that I think is valuable. But hey, son, like instead of this like knee-jerk, I need this. I need this. Yeah. Could we have a call once a week? Yeah. On a FaceTime for 20 minutes where you have a cup of coffee and I have a cup of coffee and we connect. Mhm. That’d be valuable to me. Yeah. And then you can bring your list to our meeting to our coffee where I really, you know, the goal for me is to connect with my son. Like I’m going to create it’s like date night with the wife, right? Or like, you know, like I need to create some time. I need to be intentional about that. That needs to be felt. Yeah. you know, so that’s what I would recommend there, too. And that’s what I I you know, getting with these kids, too, Chris, that we work with with Fearless Golf, you know, they’re always like, you know, I even have to draw some boundaries with them. Yeah. Because they they have had so little attention in their life that they’re dying for recognition and and they’ll go to great lengths to get it. Y and uh it’s not necessarily unhealthy at all. It’s just a matter of I need this void filled and you’re helping me do that. But yet, hey, look, I can’t have you calling me five times before we get together for golf because you know when we’re getting together for golf, I know why you’re calling. Yeah, but if you’re going to pick up the phone, I’m going to call you 15 times, Mark. Yeah, exactly. You know, that’s it blows Cass’s mind. The phone will be sitting there ringing. She’s like, “You answer?” I’m like, “Absolutely not.” Why? Because I got something going on. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it’s I don’t care who it is. Well, it’s a family. I Sunday, I’ll get a I’ll get a notification because I get my my card cuz I’ll tour a family before they go. It would disrespect. So, on a weekend, you need to call me. It’s emergency. Absolutely not. Yeah. Absolutely not. Not because I don’t think your issue is emergent. It’s because I know you have the contact information of the people that can help you with your emerging issue. I’m not going to uh disconnect my team from an opportunity to be of service to you and do their job extraordinarily well. And frankly, it’s disrespectful to text me on a weekend and say it’s emergency when you have my team at your disposal. I have a I’m a father. Yes. I have kids. Yes. It’s things hard. Yeah. So I And I’ve only started doing that in the last 5 years, but I’m not, dude. I remember this one time in my leadership meeting. I was like, I’m not answering my phone after five. And I thought they were gonna all like boo me. And they all got up and clapped. Yeah. I was like, dude, I’m a tyrannical source rex out here, you know? And so boundaries I think are are very very important are very important. Well, you’ve educated me once again, Chris. I think it’s so valuable. Yeah. To to hear that perspective because I think people need it more than they know they need it. Yeah. Yeah. Because otherwise it’s um you know, you’re chasing your tail. It’s not clear, right? Bnee Brown, back to her before we get out of here. It’s like clear is kind. Might hurt, but I really want to be clear with you. It’s It’s like if I’m supervising an employee. Yeah. And they’re not doing the job well. I don’t want to come in and be like, “You’re fired.” And they’re like, “Oh my god.” Yeah. I want them to come in on that day of supervision and and just hand me the keys. Chris, you’ve been extraordinarily clear with me. This just isn’t this position is not for me. You’ve been a great You’ve been real authentic. It’s been real clear. I just can’t hit the marks. Mhm. That gives me chills, man. That’s like a great That’s what I want to do. Amen. I I don’t want to because I want to have those tough conversations when they need to be had and I want to be clear with like what’s valuable to me, what’s appropriate, what’s not. Otherwise, I’m just a a doormat and it’s very difficult. Speaking of that, there’s a great book I read Patrick Bet David. Have you heard of him? He’s this business guru. Crucial conversations is the name of the book. Okay. And it’s a hell of a sort of a guide on the nec necessity of having tough but incredibly important conversations. Mhm. Anyway, and tough too. Tough and gracious. Yes. Yeah. But like very clear. Yeah. You know, the people that have conversations with me like that, although I hate it sometimes, is so candid. I’m just like, that’s Joseph, my business partner. He he has this way of um having a really direct conversation with you. It’s exactly what you need to hear and and if it’s wellreceived because it’s a fact. Yeah. You know, that’s what that’s the importance of a great partner, too. Yeah. They point out that you without threat of of uh judgment or or a unfair assessment. Hey, look, good point. Yep. Exactly. So, well, thanks for reminding me of the opportunity we have today to kind of like be where our feet are, you know, move our move move our passion and our purpose into this world, impact lives one day at a time. I think it’s I think I get into this work for a lot of the reasons that you do the work too is, you know, there’s been family. It’s very near and dear to my heart that I have the utmost of hope for in the recovery process, but it g me great strength to reach out into the community and u be able to help others as well. Well, our relationship means a great deal to me, Chris. You you as as people get older, they look for depth, and you are certainly a man of depth and your your wisdom, and I’m always trying to learn this and the world you’re in, is needed, and it’s only growing. And so, it it’s been a it’s been a very interesting journey with you. God bless. Thank you. Thank you, Mark. It’s a pleasure. Yes, sir. Thank you so much. It’s always a pleasure. We’ll have to have you on again soon. We’ll do Mark Clayball. Everybody, until next time, thank you so much. Find us on all your podcasts. Peace out, y’all.

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Episode 164Turning Loss Into Legacy – The Story Behind Krystle’s Corner with KK FearlessWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/Jy-iMoXYBb0Listen NowDescriptionIn this special episode of Finding Peaks, Chris welcomes back the team behind KK Fearless for a heartfelt conversation centered on recovery, family, community, and the transformative power of music.

Together, they unveil Krystle’s Corner, a dedicated music space for clients at Peaks Recovery Centers, where creativity, connection, and healing can thrive. The conversation explores how music can help dismantle shame, foster belonging, and provide meaningful outlets for self-expression throughout the recovery journey. The KK Fearless team shares updates on their mission, reflects on the lasting legacy that inspired the organization, and discusses the importance of innovative approaches that help people reconnect with themselves and others. From stories of hope and resilience to the simple moments that create lasting impact, this episode highlights why community remains one of the most powerful forces in recovery. Join us for an inspiring discussion about healing, connection, and how music can help people find their voice when they need it most.

Talking Points1. Introduction to the Show 2. Unveiling Krystle’s Corner 3. Dismiss shame 4. Updates on KK Fearless 5. The impact of music in recovery 6. Music is the great connector 7. Cutting edge modalitys 8. Community is key 9. Meaningful moments that matter 10. Final thoughts Quotes

“You can’t punish somebody into recovery”-Melinda Jackson

Episode Transcripts

Episode -164- TranscriptsYou can’t punish somebody into sobriety. And I say that all the time. And I did that. I did that. That’s what we were told to do, right? I was guilty. That’s how I was raised. I always tell people today that I think Peaks in a way has evolved into this this this thing that can heal and and doesn’t create more shame and more burden and more pain on our substance abusers. Music is like a a beautiful way to like find that refuge, regain that identity, um put the stigma behind you, um and move forward. Like I think it’s perfecting untapped for sure.
Hey everybody and welcome to another amazing, exciting and heartfelt episode of Finding Peaks. I am back with my friends from KK Fearless. Today you got your your yours truly, Chris Burns, president and founder in the house. We’ve got Brooke and Melinda. So grateful to have you guys back on the show. We got board members Katie and Len. Welcome to the show for the first time as well. Um I had it written down so I’m going to look. Um, but that you were on show 45, 104, and now show 164. Welcome to the show, you guys. Yeah. Wow. Thank you. Yeah. So grateful to have you. Um, this is a cause and a benefit that is like very near and dear to my heart. And we had done a benefit concert back in 2023 and we raised money and we had the guitar and subsequent things would happen from like a business perspective and life got busy and uh peaks wasn’t in a position to I think really give this space the depth and credit that it really really deserved both Crystal and Kevin specifically. And so I reconnected with you guys and today we were able to inaugurate the space Crystal and Kevin’s Corner for the first time at Peaks Recovery Centers. We’re really thrilled. It’s a nice little nook in the downstairs of the women’s home. We got a beautiful memorial that you all brought in. We got a guitar, a cool drum, a piano, and um I I think a lot of people are going to find um peace and connection in that space. And I think a lot of your mission will show up there to allow and what I always say your mission is and I I know this isn’t like verbatim but I always say you guys create spaces so artists can paint or artists can play you know and so um what was that like for you guys today you know coming back into a very much different space than we were in 10 years ago Melinda overwhelming and uh you know be able to still keep this energy alive keep this mission alive keep those beautiful faces through these beautiful spaces alive. Uh what was that like for you guys today? Yeah, I think it was great to see the space set up. You guys did a wonderful, beautiful job um honoring that space and keeping you know Crystal and Kevin’s corner what we had envisioned uh years ago. Uh it really is beautiful and even seeing some of the residents there um talk about what they did for that space and hope you like what you see down there and that kind of everything that they took into it as well. Um even though you know we talk about this all the time there’s a lot of people including Katie and Lynn people on the board that never met Crystal and Kevin but are here um supporting them and knowing the mission right and just loving that. And so it’s just so uh it’s a beautiful thing really to see that and their legacy still and them still touching people’s lives, you know. That’s why we’re here. Yeah. That’s what started it. That’s that was the whole point. Mhm. You know, to help people in recovery. That’s all I I That’s all I want. Mhm. I just want I want people to have that outlet. Mhm. Um to be able to help them get through their recovery in a healthy space. And it’s a warm space. Mhm. It’s beautiful. The view is unbelievable. The facility is, like I said, I feel like I’m in Bale at some resort, you know? You’re paying $500 a night to stay there kind of thing. That’s what it feels. The vibe. Mhm. The vibe is amazing. So, I couldn’t be honestly, I couldn’t be happier with it. Yeah. I’m so stoked with the way it turned out. And to your point, it just Yeah. It feels like the the vibes are alive there. And it is. Yeah. Mhm. as I’ve been talking lately about the space and about KK Fearless and and more specifically um Crystal who I knew well but Kevin as well and I I put them in the same the same boat but what what I often tell people is that what Crystal and Kevin needed was far beyond what the treatment industry could provide at that time they were far beyond they were so what anybody could offer and it wasn’t they were very very special humans and I always tell people today that I think peaks in a way has evolved into this this this thing that can heal and and doesn’t create more shame and more burden and more pain on our substance abusers, you know, and so I always feel like I need to say that and and that Peaks aims in a way to dismiss and lift that shame so that people like Kevin and Crystal that that struggle with shame and addiction um can do the work that they need to, you know. Yeah. So, Len, Katie, welcome to the show. These are board members. How many board members do we have? Um, total, I think there’s six or seven of us. Okay. Yeah. And how long’s the nonprofit been going? So, it originated we did a year after Crystal’s death. And so, February 12th, 2018 is when we originated as a nonprofit. Okay. Yeah. Cool. So, shoot, man. Almost a decade. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. It’s gone by fast. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe starting with you, Len, like what has been I think this nonprofit is just so rad. What what you all aim to do to build these musical spaces so people can paint and do their thing and feel safe in doing that is one of the coolest things. But what has it been like being on the board, Len? Um supporting this mission and this vision. Uh so far it’s been um a blessing um in my own life. I met Brooke at work. Uh she’s a co-orker of mine. um she shared her her passion for what she was doing and her nonprofit and it was contagious. Um it moved me. It made me want to be a part of it in any way possible. Um so it gives it gives me also a an avenue to um express my passion for music. Um I never met Kevin or Crystal. Um but like I’ve told before, I kind of feel like I get to know them through her being around her at work. I’m seeing what she’s like and and her inspiration in my own life and my recovery is has had an impact on me personally just watching how she perseveres and does what she does um with her life and in with this nonprofit. So, the music thing is a huge thing for me. Um it’s a refuge in my own recovery. I’m a person in long-term recovery myself and uh so it just makes sense to uh push it into KK as much as I can. Um so yeah. You play music? No, I don’t. But um I spend a lot of time discovering music. Um yeah, I mean that’s pretty much all I do when I’m not working. That’s cool. Um yeah, music’s a big deal to me. Better than medicine. Yeah, it’s so good. I don’t know how to play anything, right? And I think that’s something to touch on too is like with KK Fearless, it’s not We were also thinking about getting headphones to donate and people can just go in and jam, right? Just listen to music because not everyone, including me, know how to play an instrument, you know? I don’t know where they got but it wasn’t me. Yeah. Um but me, Crystal, and Kevin, I mean, we that’s what we did. We listened to music and discovered new music all the time and went to concerts and you know, we are Euro professionals. Let me tell you. Yeah. That’s so good. I mean professionals. Yes. Yeah. So, I think just to kind of touch on that like you don’t need to play an instrument um for us to be able to help or to work through that through your own recovery, through your own healing. You don’t need to know how to play, right? Yep. It’s just the beauty of listening to music itself. Yeah. One of the things I’m most excited about this space. Um is that like one of my favorite things to do is to watch artists on campus do their thing. They’ll write songs there about their stay there. They’ll get together. They’ll cultivate these things. And it’s like I’ll sit there and I’ll just watch and be moved to tears. I’m like, you cool if I watch? And now we got this space where I know that I’ll just be able to just go find people and I can just sit at that table and watch people express themselves because it’s it’s so cool for me because I’m one of these like a type people. I just I’m like I bounce off the wall and I’m very like and then to watch somebody who may be a bit more introverted get behind their instrument like that’s gangster. You’re just like whoa that’s how you talk like Yeah. It makes the hair on my neck stand up expression. It’s an avenue of expression. If they can’t do it another way, they could do it with their music. And that’s something I was thinking. We just went to the guitar center that we grew up going to yesterday. We were in that area. Um, and I just remember I just get flashbacks of seeing Crystal and Kevin go in there and in the little, you know, they have a little studio where you can play the drums or the guitar and just sitting there watching them. Oh, yeah. They’re like 14, 15 years old. Walk in there, grab a guitar, plug it in. They’re jamming out inside their and they’re just themselves, right? Drums and just, you know, they they taught themselves and it was their the way they healed themselves. Was he a drummer? They both were. They knew how to play a lot of They taught themselves drums and guitar and then Crystal taught herself uh piano. Oh, it’s beautiful. So, um we do have that video of her playing a song on the piano. So, just those people that could just Yeah, there are those people. Yeah. And then here’s me and Brooke. I’m like like how do I even like move this hand? I know it has to be not coordinated at all. Hear it. I love it, but I can’t play. I can’t do it. It’s so cool to watch. Yeah, they were amazing. They were amazing people. Mhm. They were. How about you, Katie? How long have you been on the board and and you know what kind of like impassions you about the project and the mission and kind of being here today? um been on the board for a few months. I also met Brooke at work. Um and music’s been a huge part of my recovery. Um music’s just been a big part of my life in general. Um and it’s been so helpful and beneficial that, you know, want to spread it to other people for their recovery as well. Mhm. So I’m not as talented as like just pick it up and burning strings which I wish I could. Yeah. Yeah. You do play the guitar though. I’m working on that. Yeah. She’s learning. Nice. I was more of a choir person. Mhm. You sing. Not well anymore. They call me the my generation.
That’s really really cool. It’s inspiring to be around other artists too. Even though like I don’t consider myself an artist or maybe I maybe I do. I just have a different kind of paintbrush and I think we’re all artists. I was going to say you’re an artist, you know. It’s just different. Yeah. And we’re all kind of doing our our painting of life and walking that thing through one day at a time, you know. But it’s interesting and I’ve told this story I think the first time maybe I had Brooke and maybe Stephanie on, but maybe Melinda was on as well. Um I when I got into this field I was 22 23 years old. I’m 40 now. M so I’m I’ve grown up in this thing and I’ll never forget I couldn’t wait. I was a house manager and I and I ran across this kid named Kyle. This kid named Kyle had been in this program that I’d been in for like 12 months. Like I thought it was a six-month program, whatever. So I would sit down with Kyle and I’m like a behavioral health tech house manager and I’m like it’s almost 20 years ago and I’m like Kyle tell me about yourself. He’s like yeah so my dad’s an orthodontist. I’m like oh okay cool. You know, I said, “What’s your mom do?” Said, “Mom’s an orthodontist.” I said, “What’s your cousins?” You know, my cousin’s loser. He does general dentistry, you know, or whatever. You know, they’re all dentists or orthodontist and dentist and orthodontist and dentist and orthodontist. Successful. Everyone’s successful. He hasn’t told me any issues from mental health perspective whatsoever other than a fluency and success. And I said, “Kyle, what are you?” And he goes, “I’m an artist.” And in that moment and having like fast forwarded through a 20-year career, I knew ex I know exactly what I am sitting in front of. And it’s been my experience over the last 18 to 20 years. A lot of times artists, they get so lost in our society because when we look at things like what’s the test, the IQ test, there’s not a lot of like I don’t I I’ve never taken an IQ test, but I imagine I wouldn’t do well. But now they have these new IQ tests that in inform like social and this artist thing and all these other components that inform I think some of this stuff that we’re talking about because often times artists are told why don’t you do something with your life that isn’t what you love cuz that would be foolish, right? Yeah. It’s the measurement. What do you measure yourself against? Yeah. It’s different for everybody because it usually comes from your environment. your environment that you grow up in um you know your friends. You measure yourself against that. So yeah. And sometimes dad’s like this big CEO and you’re a drummer. Yeah. And he’s like Yeah. They don’t get it. They’re on a different plane. Exactly. They don’t get it because they think differently. And And that’s okay. Right. Until somebody says, “You know what? I know I’m a CEO. I know I own this company. and I do all this, but you do you. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s what I love about What’s wrong with that? Exactly. Absolutely nothing. And that’s where sustainable recovery lives. Exactly. Exactly. Be okay with it. I think that goes hand in hand with with a person in recovery, you know, music, um someone in in active recovery, they’re they’re trying to um find their identity again. Oh, yeah. Yeah. you lose yourself, right? Lose yourself. You lose yourself. Music is like a beautiful way to like find that refuge, regain that identity. Um, put the stigma behind you. Yeah. Um, and move forward. Like I think it’s perfect thing. Untapped for sure in recovery. Yeah. Well said. Yeah. That’s beautiful. And I really believe like sustainable recovery is like what I do, what I what I’m passionate about. I I got to touch every day. Yeah. Like it’s what it’s what makes my soul sink, you know? And so what I tell artists, anybody who’s coming in, like if we paint, we paint every day. Whether we get paid for it or not, like if we play, we play every day. Like we’re into this thing that makes us come alive. And if some if if one day we’re at Red Rocks, one day we’re at Red Rocks, so be it. But otherwise, like I want to I want to feel that aliveness. I want to be connected with these things. I remember I used to do this. I don’t know if I’ve told you guys, but when I was a young entrepreneur, not not a young entrepreneur. I guess I would have been a young entrepreneur, but I was working for somebody, but I was a young house manager. They used to do this thing called music therapy at this place that I worked called Decision Point Center, and it was 1 hour every Thursday. And they’re like, “Chris, I mean, yeah, hopefully places that are doing it give it a little bit more uh a little bit more foundation than they did, but they’re like, “Chris, you do music therapy.” And I was like, “I can get I’ll do anything, man. I remember you. Yeah, you remember, right? So, I’m like, okay, so I’m music therapist. Like, let’s go. Like, what are we doing? Music moves my soul. You know what I’m saying? So, we get in there and I’m like, oh [ __ ] this is going bad. You know, but for the most part, it was just about us kind of getting together, vibing on the music, learning what that song may or may not have meant for the individual, understanding that, connecting with the person through that, and walking forward. And it so it was this very, very cool thing. Um that I think is just like music has this um I think the ethos of it in general is like a togetherness. It brings people together. Music will connect. Yeah. You can connect through music. And personally I can tell you how old I was and where I was from the song. I do it all the time. Oh, I was 13 and we lived in Aurora. Oh my god. When the song came out. I can tell you where I was. I remember all just because of the song. Not because I remember. I can’t remember what I did yesterday. Yeah, but I can tell you if certain song comes on, I can tell you how old I was and where I was and what was going on and that sort of thing. So that’s the connection with music doesn’t have to be I wasn’t I wasn’t sitting playing the guitar, right? I was listening to a song, the Go. I just heard it the other day. The Go-Os. We got the beat. I was 12. Oh, really? Oh, no way. That’s great. I was 12. That’s great. I was 12. I don’t know why. Like the cranberries are one of those bands for me, too. Just like kind of string you through time. You hear it and you go, “Oh my god, I remember this song and I was here and I this is when the music video came out and Yeah. Yeah. I was there when the first like John Baj joi
the first video. I’m serious. That’s awesome. Yeah. The first video. Back in my day. Back in my day. Well, you’re much older than me. Yeah. Right. We already talked about this, but back in my day, you would get the CD case or the tape case and you’d open it up because you’d be going to school the next day. You’d have to know the words of the songs. You didn’t want to be the person in fifth grade who didn’t know the words to the new Melissa Ethridge album or whatever. Sometimes they have the lyrics. Exactly. Yeah. And that was so disappointing. Yeah. I didn’t know they had lyrics on them. Yeah. So that’s how you because my kids now are like how do you know every word to this dad? I’m like cuz you read it back in the day. You just listen. You read it. And when you went from cassette tapes to CDs, it was great because the CDs, they had enough room in there to put the thing so you can unfold it and you had all the cassette tapes didn’t. And neither did vinyl cuz Yeah. I could go back as far as vinyl and Yeah. Now I got vinyl now. Oh, yeah. I love vinyl. Yeah. I had I had albums. I could tell my brother brought me Steve Miller Band when I was 7 years old for my birthday. Oh, that’s cool. I mean, that’s that’s how I associate her and it’s good. It’s good stuff. Y I remember my dad had the Billy Ray Cyrus tape. Oh, yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. Achy break your heart. It’s so funny. Yeah. I can tell you how old I was. Anybody want to know where I was? Did I ever tell you guys your music, man? It’s just we could all connect through music forever. And I think it’s cool that we’re having a conversation about it. Um, Miss Star was my I’ve said this on the podcast. Coop knows the whole story. But since we’re talking about music, so there in the early 90s, they would do you would you would pick a song, sing it out loud, and get a grade from the teacher. Oh, and you could have partners or you could do it by yourself, right? And I was like I always felt like I was on the edge of cool, but never quite like cool. No, just like right on the edge most often and just not in there. And so like back in the in the early 90s, one of the cool songs that was out was a Culio Dangerous Minds. Oh yeah. D gangster Paradise, right? And so everybody knew like you’re singing that song, man, like and you’re hiding it from your parents or you’re not or whatever, like and so I’m on the outside of Cool. So my three what I thought were my friends. They do the song. They didn’t ask me to be a part of it. So I’m I’m over here and my mom, she had just had got the new Melissa Ethridge album. Oh yeah. That had the song on it. Come to my window. Oh yeah. Right. Uhhuh. I’m third grade boy. You know what I mean? It’s hard. It’s early ‘9s, right? There’s no cameras. Like, so I go in there. I basically get booed out of there. She gives me a C minus out loud. Oh, no wonder the treatment really became popular like when I hit my 20s cuz we were like, “What?” Yeah. Right. They were given C minuses out loud by me star. Wow. And then the guys came up with Dangerous Minds. They got an A minus. Oh, they were so cool. And they were the coolest. I’m just like, “Oh, I was this is devastating.” Like, this is the worst. But so I’ve always thought about that. But yeah, music’s so valuable. Yeah. You don’t want to be on the edge of cool. Yeah. It’s a testament to how powerful it really is. In active addiction, I think I think music’s powerful for the wrong reasons sometimes, but in recovery, just as powerful, like the other end of the spectrum. Yeah. That’s why we would love to just push it everywhere we can. Yeah. Yeah. That’s we’re figuring it out. But yeah, now that we’re on that side of it, push it hard. Yeah. That’s nice. Yeah, I remember being in early recovery. Me and my roommate Rody, we picked up like one, two, three, four ears together. Um, and um, we would we would play music on the thing. We’d plug our phones in, play music. We would just clean and we would dump all our underwear out on the table. We would count them. Well, cuz when you’re in, we didn’t have very many underwear, unfortunately. So, we I came in with like one pair that were pretty tattered, you know, a lot of space in those things. And so, I remember we’re like, we’re like four months sober. Simple stuff, right? We’re we’re jamming, dude. We got the music. We got playlist. We can download music cuz we got phones and we got internet connection. Like really creature comforts that people take for granted that we didn’t have. And we do it and we’re like, we got six pairs of Tony’s, you know, and we’re listening to our favorite band and we’re in recovery. It’s like, dude, I remember those times. I talked about them all the time, like simplest, most gratifying, like connected times of our lives, you know, and a lot of it had to do with music, mopping, yeah, you know, undies and things. I’m a strong believer in it. I watched somebody that I love very much was an alcoholic for many, many years. And he got sober by putting headphones on and playing his guitar for months, weeks at a time. Mhm. That’s all he did when he wasn’t working. And that’s how he got sober. And he’s still sober. It’s interesting you’re in saying that, too, because a lot of the movement, especially for our vets who we’ve gotten into serving through our Triricare Tri West contract, um, a lot of the movement for the for vets is in the psychedelic realm now. Yeah. But a lot of it is integrated through song through music. Well, don’t isn’t it in the therapeutic setting they sit and listen to music while they’re Yeah. While they’re Yeah. And they’ll put on the eye I wear eye mask to go to sleep. I love it. But yeah, they wear they do that as well. Um and for like four to six hours it’s just like whatever comes to them through the music. I’m very hopeful for that because my my husband Jason is a Marine and he’s a Gulf War vet. Oh wow. and um he has a lot of PTSD and you know that sort of thing and I’m really hopeful that that’s something that he’ll be able to get to be a part of because I think it’ll be a lot more helpful than everything else they don’t do. Yeah, there’s a lot of um we’ve been in the space now for over the last year. We have a military leaison. He’s a 23 uh year vet. He’s been deployed six times. He’s on and off works in United States Air Force Academy. We work with a tremendous amount of providers up in Denver that’s serving this population. We’ve had Sam Peterson as well as Dr. Ron Schwinkler on the show. Uh he’s the psychologist for Denver Mind Spa up in Denver. I think in my opinion they’re doing some of the most funky stuff for vets, combat vets. They’re doing intraasal stem cell. They’re getting it approved through the VA. Vets are having TBI remission of symptoms in like 20 days. Oh wow. Um, not only does he do the TMS that we were talking about, the transcranial magnetic, he couples it with ketamine therapy through song, their ketamine chairs have Dr. Ron plays the sound bowls and they have like speakers on like boom boom like the vibration. Yeah. Know drags it through and they have hyperbaric oxygen chamber like they’re doing all this really really cool stuff. So um especially for PTSD and TBI and things of that nature. So and it’s interesting because all all of it’s integrated through song. Yeah. Yes. you know. Yeah, cuz sometimes like I’m going to see a artist say, this guy named protege and I call it protege church and people are like, “What are you talking about?” I’m like, “I made that up. I made that up.” But like, “What’s protege church?” I’m like, “If you just like, especially with music,” and I’ve learned this maybe over just the last few years when I’ve gotten more comfortable just kind of being who I am, which is just kind of this nutty dude. And that’s okay. And it’s okay to let that out a little bit. You know what I’m saying? And so like just being like at a concert and you’re vibing on some music, it’s like, “Hey, we’re just going to be with this, man. Just let your body do what it needs to do and shake that [ ] out.” And who cares? Like it doesn’t like I don’t have to look cool, any of that. We’re just going to be with the vibration and do this thing. And so like music over the last few years, specifically concerts, maybe it’s Red Rocks or just like taking my shoes off or just being with something. And this is like, you know, 18 years of sobriety in June, you know, like, and this is just like, wow. You know, so I love it. I love that we’re talking about this because I don’t I don’t know that there’s been something over the last few years. I didn’t go to concerts before I got sober ever. Never. Maybe like one or two. I was busy. Used to be opposite. Yeah. So like I get to go and I’m like, “Oh man, it seems heavy to drink.” Usually one and the same. Yeah. It seems really these stairs. Like I always think at red rocks when people are drinking I’m like [ ] stairs to climb like that man you know. Yeah. Imagine you got drunk and you got to go to the bathroom at the bottom and you got to come back at the top. I’m like dude this is hard for me dark. Yeah. I’m like totally with it you know. So yeah it’s it’s just it’s been so cool just having you guys back on today back in the facility like coming full circle which was you know literally a decade ago as we talked about. Um a lot of things have evolved for us and growing up. We kind of had a chat in the corner of, you know, some of the professionals aren’t here and it and it’s nothing about the professionals that aren’t here. It’s about the company and the business being able to evolve long term. It’s growth. Yeah. Yeah. To help you’re going to have to grow and create that culture like I said. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Yeah. And our mission here still is it’s very clear. It’s to save lives and it’s disrupt the industry through quality of care because as we’ve talked about before, not only were they ahead of this industry’s time, um I think a lot of people need to aim to be ahead of this industry’s time. There’s 13,000 treatment providers. I wouldn’t send someone I hated to 12,950 of them. And Peaks wants to be one of those 50 that aims to anchor with families like yourself to walk in a true and an authentic way into healing, not lifelong suffering. Yeah. Yeah. We got to get away from I mean not only the stigma which we’ve talked about many times the stigma of addiction but until you can’t punish somebody into sobriety and I say that all the time and I did that. I did that. That’s what we were told to do. Right. I was guilty. That’s how I was raised. My mom did it to my brother. Tough love. Yeah. Yes. Tough love. There we were. You know that that generation my generation was all about that tough love. Get up and do it. Don’t be a [ ] Well, not only that. Not only that, Melinda, but like intervention is like flying off the shelves when you’re going through this, right? And so it’s about bringing It’s interesting, too, and it’s sad because we don’t do it anymore, but it it really aims to bring the most vulnerable person into the room, wage every single piece of connection that they love and care about against them. Yes. And hope they make a good decision 100%. And you cannot punish anybody into sobriety. It doesn’t work that way. And unfortunately, I figured out the hard way. Mhm. I figured I two I lost two to it. Yeah. Because I That’s how I was raised. Mhm. Was you know you you don’t we don’t do [ ] like this. Y right. That’s not how we do things. Yeah. So get sober. Yeah. Not only were you raised by that, the industry met you in a very vulnerable spot as a parent because you’re you’re raised by this generational thing and then you’re coming into an industry like you’re right. Get your [ ] together. That’s how that’s what it was. It was like you were you were looked at like you were some loser because you know you you had addiction and unfortunately it’s still like that today. But as a parent, as a parent, that’s the biggest advice I could give a parent that’s has a child, old, young, it doesn’t matter. You cannot punish them sober. Yeah. You will not punish them sober. You have to try to get other people involved. Yeah. Like this. You have to give them that opportunity somehow. Mhm. Somehow for somebody to accept them for who they are. Yeah. I love what you’re saying. And write it. And you have to write it. And when when one person in your family is in active addiction, everybody is. Yeah. And a lot of people don’t realize that until you’re in it. Yeah. You know, you got to get far enough away from it to look back and say, “Yeah, man. I [ ] that up. I should have never done that.” And I do it all the time. Mhm. I love what you’re saying, Melinda, because what you’re talking about now is kind of the ethos of the way that we kind of walk people into recovery. And that’s what you were telling me today. It’s about I’m actually instead of going to wage this against you. I’m going to love you into recovery. Yes, exactly. I’m going to inform your values so much that you’re actually going to make a you’re going to pick up the phone and call because I’m just going to keep loving on you and I’m going to show you how much I love you and that I’m not going anywhere. And yeah, that behavior it’s not going to apply here and you can’t take my stuff and things like that. Sure. But I you are so lovable. You know what I mean? And I think somewhere and along the lines in our field we got lazy or we picked it up or we put it down. But I think it’s back to your point. It’s like, you know, my grandfather was the greatest human I ever met until I got into recovery. And you better His thing on kids was like, “You’d be seen, not heard.” Exactly. That’s that was a great guy. He’s my guy. You know what I mean? And I remember Thanksgiving, man, you couldn’t even hear the adult table, you know? And then we’re coming into here and it’s no wonder it’s taken us so long as a field and as an environment to go, “Oh, addiction, not no, not bad.” Yeah. Hard to get enough of something that almost works. That’s how we look at it. It has to be looked at as a medical issue, right? It’s not a criminal issue. It’s a medical issue. And until people start looking at it as a medical issue, mental health is medical. Yep. It’s not criminal because you’re struggling to get through the day and you steal something so you can get high. Okay. Yeah, you committed a crime, but what does that make you? I mean, are you really now a criminal? Like, maybe titlewise, but We have everybody has to stop especially law enforcement. Yeah. There there’s a lot of training that has to be done with mental health. Agree. A lot. And they and they are doing it and you hear talk of it and um talking to Brooke about different things that they’ve done in places she’s worked. Um but until everybody looks at it as like this is a health issue. This isn’t a criminal issue. Just cuz you’re an addict does not make you automatically a criminal. Oh, for sure. And it’s interesting. I I love that you say that too because everybody copes. I just happen to have a beer in my hand or whatever and it worked. Yeah. But like also too like my wife struggled with codependency. People die that way all the time from relationships. And if somebody with codependency who has this ability to put value in others more than themselves, if they live to 90 and a substance user lives to 90, they’re in the same spot, isolated, disconnected, all alone with no friends. It just so happens that substances have this informed risk and so people are like it’s the bad thing. Ever since Reagan was like war on drugs, you know, it’s like get them every like [ ] you know, it’s like but it’s not like I used to also tune my world out to say that I would disassociate so bad that you could be chopping up a body. I’ve never seen a body chopped up. I’ve said this before, but like I would disassociate and there’s such harmful effects to that. You get on probation at 22, you can’t follow the rules. Why? Well, cuz this behavior kept me alive at a young age and now it’s killing me as an adult. Similar to the substance thing. And so I think we got to just give our substance abusers a little bit of grace and space. And that’s why the Peaks model now, we don’t do substance use. We do mental health. Mentally healthy people don’t cope with substances. It’s not we can’t sobrietize sobriety into people. It’s the inverse, right? So now it’s like let’s work on our mental health. We might have some falls. We might have some scrapes, but let’s aim for mentally healthy. Yeah. And then watch the addiction go away. Watch the shame leave instead of being like, “What’s your relapse prevention plan? How many people have you called today? How many?” It’s like, “Oh jeez, this is shitty.” Yeah. So, and also after after recovery. Yeah. Long. Yeah. You have 28 days. You’ve got whatever it is, it doesn’t matter. Yeah. But what you do after that is really important too. You have, you know, because that’s everything when uh that’s usually when we lost Kevin was he would do great and even Crystal did a couple times. He do great and then it’s like, okay, he did great. Bye. Right. Bye. You know, and then they’re on the street and they’re like, “Where where’s everybody at now?” Mhm. You know, nobody wants to talk to him cuz you don’t want to be associating, right? You’re talking about community and it’s everything and it’s got to be long term. And it’s interesting you say that cuz what what folks find like Crystal and Kevin in programs like ours is, “Oh, this is what it feels like to be seen, valued, and heard in community. This is excellent.” So, they thrive and then they leave and they’re like, “Oh, this is what it feels like not to be seen, valued, and heard in community. So, I survive.” And then we come back into the facility. I know how. And then here we go. And it’s the cycle. Here we go again. Wow, this feels good. If we could emulate this somehow in community and have people that care, you know, but it’s almost like you can’t introduce the community quick enough down the line, you know? You got to have a lot of resources available to people for them to turn to when they are released from jail, from recovery, whatever. You know, they they still need help. 28 days is not going to it. All it does is get you sober. That’s why I said it’s like a it’s a detox. It’s a 28 day detox. Stability best. Exactly. And talk about what’s going on and you kind of clear your head to where you can think about things a little bit clearer and then you leave and then it’s there’s no support anymore. You’re on your own. Yep. And not only that, but you’re actually more vulnerable. Yeah. You have no job. You have no money. Your family doesn’t talk to you. Have no friends because you’ve screwed everybody over. But figure it out. Right. Yeah. Figure it out. Yeah. And I think sometimes like a person in long-term recovery like myself, there has to be consistency with just presence, just a kind gesture. We talk about it at work a lot like, oh yeah, you get burnt out. I mean, it’s a lot. It’s hard. But if you just give someone just a moment, what’s what’s the big deal? Maybe that’s all they’re going to need. And you keep doing it. Um, as a person in long-term recovery, that’s that’s huge for me. Yeah. To give to give back to people. because I’m not going to have all the answers. Um my my road to recovery is going to be different than theirs, but if I show up for them consistently, I might be what gets them over the hump. Yeah. You know, and it doesn’t take much. It really doesn’t. Yeah. It feels good for you. Yeah. It absolutely my recovery big time. That’s a great point. Yeah. That’s huge. It’s And when you really spend a moment, not like, “Hey, how are you? Okay. Great day. Bye.” Oh, yeah. But when you just do a moment, I call them like meaningful moments that matter. Yeah, people are like, “Fuck, you actually cared and it was like 8 seconds like thanks.” You know, so finding that I think we have a team of them at Peaks right now. It’s like that’s kind of the standard since over the last year is like, “Hey man, we’re going to show up and check it out.” Every day has to be like the Super Bowl, cuz these people that are walking in are making the most courageous decision of their lives. And somewhere somehow someway in our field, we’ve lost sight of that. So this is the standard. If you can’t meet the standard, you can’t be here. It has nothing to do with you. It has everything to do with us. It’s just what we got to do. This is our mission and it’s one day at a time. And the people that walk in the door like we got this one moment and these people Yeah. They’re hypervigilant. They’re not trusting. They’re called trauma informed people because they’ve walked through a lot and then they know [ ] Oh yeah. So quick. They’re like this is whack. You know, you’re like, I don’t know why we couldn’t say it’s like Yeah. Because you weren’t authentic with a human. Exactly. You know, in a moment where you’re a [ __ ] stranger. Yep. So, I’m really grateful too that I could sit here with you guys a decade removed and having really grown peaks in a way that I think is um really really valuable to the human race. You know, in the midst of a healthcare industry that’s being taken over by companies that are publicly traded on the Dow Jones for hundreds of thousands of dollars. Yeah. You know, we still got this personal touch. We’re able to sit here and I think through KK Fearless, Melinda, Brooke, you all’s impact and your voices, we get to keep Crystal and Kevin alive one day at a time in a really, really tremendous way. Yeah. And continue to talk about this. Yeah. Yeah. And I really appreciate what Peace has done. Yes. Um through it all as well and being a huge supporter with KK Fearless and Crystal and having a photo of her and just bringing this Crystal in Kevin’s corner. I mean you guys, it’s huge and we really appreciate repay you for that. Yeah. There’s no amount of money that would suffice to pay back for that. Yeah. Well, and you’re helping us carry on that legacy. You know, you have a huge part in that. Huge part. Yeah. You guys were a huge part of Crystal’s recovery, you know. Yeah. And uh if her little brother wouldn’t have passed away, she probably would still be here, right? We have to assume. Yeah. That you know, grief plays a a huge part in addiction also, which is mental health. It all just one big circle. Now we have a grief week. Turns out it’s a really big thing right now because a lot of people use, you know, that’s mental health. Grief. Yeah. Grief will take you down. Most people in this world are rolling over grief like it’s a little speed bump. These are big things. Oh god. Yeah. Yeah. It’ll take you out of the game. Completely. Well, I want you to know and I and I know you know this, but um Peaks is alive and well and I am committed from this platform to continue to tell this story. Um and and I assure you that our platform is going to continue to grow and the story is going to get louder. It’s going to get bigger. It’s going to get more connected. Um, and we’re going to continue to do that one day at a time. And we will do whatever we have to to help with that. Make sure it happens. Whatever you need, whatever we have to do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think we just hope that the the music space really does touch people, you know, make an impact in their recovery. Yeah. We want it to help somebody. I want someone to walk away and really think about that um when they’re not at the facility and still take that with them. Exactly. And try to and and take that piece of it and um hold on to that hopefully, you know, and remember that it’s really important. Yeah, it’s uh what this space will do. I think um I I I’m close to it, so I I know it’s going to be very very impactful. In fact, we had a guy go through our program and I’ll kind of leave you this just the power of music. Um, his name was Luke and his family was a um, a bunch of musicians on Broadway back in New York City. He’s from Manhattan. I see. Been to our program a couple times and um, the last time he came here, he’s doing really, really well. He’s up in Denver, unfortunately. Lost his life over. Luke, I mean, when he sang, it was so good. And so, he wrote this song when he was at Peaks and he played it and I had a video of it. It’s so good. It’s like 4 minutes and he just rips and it’s all about his thing here and recovery and it’s acoustic. So I call his dad after he passes, right? Right. And I said, you know, like I actually called his mom and his dad called me back. And sometimes artists are very stoked to, you know, they have a different way of expressing their emotions and things of that through, you know, and so I have this call with him and I said, “Hey, I I have a video of your son.” And every time this video, I played this video, I moved it. It’s how I remember Luke. And so I I sent it to his dad. And you know, 20 minutes later, he says, “That’s how I’m going to remember my boy. Mhm. You know what I mean? And I have these moments and these memories of of humans that um are no longer here. Um and I have these very very wonderful memories because I believe that I get to spend sometimes unfortunately or fortunately some of the best moments of people’s lives with them. Yeah. Oh, you do? And a side of their family they don’t see. You get to see that side, you know. Yeah. Really awesome. So, having said that, I I thank you for sharing your family with me. It means a lot. Thank you. Um, and thank you guys for coming on the show. Thank you, Robin. Uh, thank you all my beautiful people out there in podcast land. Until next time, my beautiful people.

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Episode 163The Belief That Makes the Impossible Possible with Patricia ShannonWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/t7wiZqkC-M8Listen NowDescriptionIn this episode of Finding Peaks, Chris sits down with Patricia Shannon, one of Peaks Recovery Centers’ Peer Recovery Coaches, to explore the belief that makes the impossible possible. Patricia shares what motivates her to show up each day, why recovery work is far more than a job, and what makes the Peaks approach different. Through pieces of her own story and the lessons she’s learned along the way, Pat reflects on the power of authenticity, the importance of truly being heard, and the lasting impact we can have on others, even when we may never fully realize it. This conversation is a reminder that healing often begins with connection, that hope can be contagious, and that sometimes the most meaningful change starts when someone believes in us before we’re able to believe in ourselves.

Talking Points1. Introduction to the Show 2. Pat’s motivation 3. It’s not a job 4. PRC is different 5. A piece of Pat’s story 6. The unknown impact 7. The importance of authenticity 8. The ones that last 9. Being heard 10. Final thoughts Quotes

“There are days when I want to sleep in. Oh gosh, I want to. But no, someone out there needs me”– Patricia Shannon

Episode Transcripts

Episode -163- TranscriptsWhat keeps me inspired is just seeing and and being there for for people that that needs it. There’s days when, oh gosh, I want to sleep in, but
somebody out there needs me. But like everything we’ve ever wanted is right here. Coming from a place where you never had it, it’s so nice to be able to give it.
Hey everybody and welcome to another amazing, exciting and enthusiastic episode of Finding Peaks. Yours truly, Christopher Michael Burns. I am joined today. Boy, am I excited for this show. You know, I got a dear friend, a colleague, someone who inspires me on a daily basis, reminds me to continue to work hard, reminds me to continue to show up with authenticity one day at a time, and treat every single day that we have the opportunity to serve humans like the freaking Super Bowl. So grateful to have you on the show, Miss Patricia. How are you today, my dear friend? Sexy as usual. You already know how. Sexy as usual. Oh my gosh, it’s so funny you say that, man. I was I was on some [ __ ] the other day at the dermatologist and you know they strip you down. You ever do you do the annual thing? You should. Anyway, they take this Well, they maybe just do it for me, but it’s a it’s a microscope and they run it on your body. I think it’s cuz I got tattoos, but they’re just looking for like any like bad moles or anything. So, when I get in there, the young nursing assistant or medical assistant, he says, you know, he’s probably 19 years old, good fit looking kid. He says, “Anything changed since last year, Mr. Burns?” I said, “Fitter by the day.” He said, he’s just like, “Huh?” said, “Happy Monday, man.” You know, “Here we go.” Yeah. I love that. That’s what I thought of when you when you opened up, man. That’s so cool. You should know. You should know. Yeah. I love I love what we get to share and that’s why I look so forward to to this show is that there there’s something when when when people are are connected in this world on kind of the same vibration in the same wavelength in the same type of energy. Um I just feel like I see them really really clearly and I feel like you see me really really clearly and have always seen me really really clearly. Always. Yeah. And so to have you sitting across from me on this beautiful snowy day in Colorado Springs with what we the big we like capital we have been able to accomplish over the last 12 months in the name of serving others has been pretty miraculous and and you’ve been a huge part of that. Um so I wanted to chat a little bit about you know what what’s what’s keeping you motivated lately um at Peaks. What’s keeping you so inspired? What keeps me inspired is just seeing and and being there for for people that that needs it, you know. Um coming from a place where you never had it, it’s so nice to be able to give it and that’s just the love, kindness, understanding, you know, having that active ear always. Mhm. It keeps me inspired to keep coming back. Mhm. Cuz I know that’s where I’m going to get it at. Yeah. And be able to give it. Yeah. It’s a beautiful thing. You know what they used to tell me when I was when I first started working in the field? What they tell you? When I was a young 12step kid, um they used to say that you your work your your work can’t be your recovery. And I had a real tough time with that at the time. Um because I’m sitting there thinking I said what what what else do I got? You know, when I started this thing almost 20 years ago, it’s like I got nothing. I got my credit score is 200. I’m working at the gas station. I got no friends. I got no family. You you telling me that that that can’t that’s not going to be a part of this. What I’ve learned over the years is yes, we show up and we do a job, but when you take it to the next level on a daily basis and you’re inspired in a certain type of way to deliver a certain type of energy and authenticity and sit with people, that can be every bit of your recovery and the way that you show up in this world because it’s it’s like it’s not even on the job description that way. You know what I mean? Yeah. It’s not a job. No, I love that. Yeah. How long um how long you been fighting like this recovery thing? You said 2013, but I know like So, I’ve I’ve had several relapses, but this recovery is the best recovery that I’ve ever had. It is the recovery that I can honestly say, um, wow, I’m done.
I’m done. I don’t need that. I know what I need and I get up every morning and I come to it. Mhm.
You got to show up though, huh? Got to show up. Yeah. Have to. There’s days when Oh gosh, I want to sleep in, but
somebody out there needs me. Mhm. Yeah. And it’s real special cuz I was actually talking about somebody on it about it on Monday. It’s like to I don’t know if it’s like for everybody but at least in my experience I I think you need to have both and with respect to like having the experience of maybe feeling what it feels like to be tossed away and and then be renewed in community and foundationalizing connection with friends and people, places, and things. But I it’s interesting to me that the best helpers, I don’t even like to call them helpers, the best humans that I know have somewhat at least touched or felt that experience and and come to the other side. Yes. And it’s it’s turned out to be very very valuable for them, you know, and and it is it it is it’s it’s very valuable. is um it gives for me it gives me that I’m grateful very grateful
for it because
my experiences and in my past has made me who I am today Chris
and by me not liking that life. Mhm. And you told me to be raw. Mhm. But man, it’s hard being raw sitting there talking to you. Tears is going to fall. I’m going let you know. Okay. So, let’s go, baby. Here we go. I’m ready for it. Being in that life where
Sorry.
Thank you. in that that part of life where um I didn’t have no one to be kind and and loving and um to understand where I was. You know, yeah, my family loved me, but they didn’t understand and their love really didn’t matter because they didn’t understand me.
And then they didn’t understand the shame, the guilt, and all I ever would hear is, “Hey, you ain’t got to do this. You don’t have to do that. You got this.” And I’m like, “No, I don’t. I want to have it, but I don’t know how.”
and um being able to come and talk to people every day and be there for them and when when they walk in that door and to be able to tell them, “Hey, you’re safe now and mean it.”
It makes me so happy. That’s some powerful [ __ ] powerful
if you’re there for it. If you’re there for it, you know, I’m a millionaire. Did you know that? Yeah. Self-made, baby. I am a millionaire. Wealthy. I mean, that is just that has so much in it, you know? I mean, even we were talking on the way over here. Yeah. You know, I got a meeting today at two that I reschedled from yesterday. like we with someone same thing, you know, like and these are people like I have a friend of mine who went through peak seven years ago. He’s one of my best friends and every week he reminds me he’s like he’s a helicopter pilot. I think what he’s got going on is pretty [ ] cool. You know, he’s got a camper van. He lives in Steamboat. He like picks people up in the middle of the woods and [ ] like and he’s always like, “What do you got today?” He was like, “I got this, this, and this, but my door’s cracked.” And you know what that means? And he’s just like, “Man, you have the
what a gifted and miraculous and beautiful opportunity every single day to show up.” And if you choose, you can have five to 10 of those conversations a day. some of the most like jaw-dropping, soul connecting, earthshattering conversations if you’re there for it. If you’re there for it, what a what a blessing. I I can remember thinking when I got sober, they they I said all the time on here, they they diagnosed me with antisocial personality disorder. And now you probably too. Now you’re s we’re sitting here being like, “Oh man, you know, like that’s what I was saying. And I’m on a tour yesterday and I’m these people. It’s it’s this family-owned company and I’m sitting here thinking like my business partner has this baby in the office, right? Like I’m here. We’re all here and our competitors or the people like what you know like it’s different, man. It’s so different. You know what I mean? I was in the cafeteria yesterday saw a new guy. He’s 48 hours. He’s been here few days. You know, like some hot chocolate, you know? that made me feel great, right? You know, simple stuff. And that same person, that same alumni always says this thing. Um, and I’ve talked about it on the show, but it came out of the depths of like despair for me. Like, and I’m so grateful for the community that I had wrapped around me when I was doing this, and you’re one of them. But I would go in there and I’d say, “Buddy, like, Kyle, I’m gonna lose everything, man. like the whole dream, everything I got. Um, it’s all for nothing. All these things. I said, “Yeah, but my relationship with my wife and my kids is so much better and all these things.” And no matter where I wherever I was in the conversation or in in the experience of business and life, he would always say to me, “But it had to happen, bro. All of it. Every last piece of it.” I said, ‘ Man, it’s hurt real bad. Like, it’s hurt real bad. And uh he’s like, “Yeah, but it had to happen. Had to.” You know what I mean? It’s back to like where we sit, you know, and and all the things you’ve been through and what we walked through. And it’s like, man, that’s a hell of a cross to bear. But that had to happen. Had to, man. It’s almost like you coming out of the flames and then it’s like, man, I don’t know what it is about this person, but I just I trust her and I believe her. I think what she’s saying has fruit and I think I’m just going to maybe take her suggestions. It’s the most beautiful thing. I watch you up front doing your thing. You’re painting like an artist out there. You’re like Vincent freaking Van Go doing your thing. I love it. Yeah. You can tell you love it. I love it. Yeah. And it’s really really inspiring to have people um like yourself around me and there’s just not very many. You know, if you had um back in 2020 when you when you got it back into recovery this last time you over at the IHOP, right? Yes. Yeah. I two years I was at the Woody’s gas station. I think IHOP’s probably better gig than that. Yeah. At least you get tips and stuff. That’s where I was. I haven’t been to an IHOP in a minute. Yeah. Yeah. But last time I went, I remember thinking it was bomb. I um worked there. Met so many so many good people there. Um I met Sparkle there. Sparkle used to come to IHOP. That’s right. Once or twice a week she would come in there and I would she would always ask for me. I would always serve her. We would have short conversations and then just this one day she came and wasn’t a soul in there but her. And for some reason I went and sat down in her booth and that’s when I knew that it was time for me to move on. How long was that in 2020 or was it like 21 22? So no that was in um 20 the ending about the ending of 21. Okay. Mhm. Yeah. And for everybody who knows or doesn’t know, we’ve had Sparkle on the show before. She just celebrated seven years in recovery. Right. That was like a couple days ago. Mhm. Yeah. That’s dope. So So Pat’s in early recovery. She’s over at the the IHOP doing her thing, one foot in front of the other, trudging the road to happy destiny. I’m sure. You know what I mean? I get it. Like we all the same kind of thing. And sparkle. Yeah. You’re just having these little mini conversations, whatever. Like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She would pick me when she would come in there. She would ask for me if if I was the night one, so most of the time I was by myself, but if it was more than me working, she would ask for me to serve her. And we never ever knew that we would end up with the relationship that we have. She’s she’s amazing. And um yeah, it was her that gave me confirmation that I wasn’t supposed to be at IHOP. M I needed to be helping others cuz it can be I remember thinking that too like even at the gas station like yeah I’m in recovery like this cool but I’m not happy here I’m not I’m not going to be doing this for very long. You know what I mean? And then something happens. Yeah, right. It was money or help others. I’m going to help others. Mhm. Cuz I got it to give. Yeah. you know, and I never got it. And then I just I knew it was worth it. And then then that’s where I’m a millionaire at is what I give. Mhm. It’s worth a lot and I know it. Mhm. Oh, it’s worth more because I never got it. Yeah. You know, and so now giving it, I feel it because I feel it for myself. Yeah, man. How many people do we get the opportunity to sit with who have all the money in the world and they’ll they’ll be in your office. They’ll be in my office talking about I I’ll just go be a BHT. Like I just want to be here with y’all. Like what the what you guys are doing is really cool. Hey, a million dollars in the bank. They’re like I’ll do like what’s minimum wage? Yeah. cuz they understand like it’s not and it took me a long time in recovery to figure this out and on bad days I miss it and I miss it bad. But like everything we’ve ever wanted is right here, right here. And some days I miss that because of anxiety and and because of depression and maybe I eat too much ice cream. I don’t know, whatever it might be. But on the days when I’m locked into that vibration, like the moment, oh boy, that’s amazing feeling. Can’t even explain how it feels. Yeah. That’s how tight it is. Yeah. That’s how tight it is. So, you started off as a peer recovery coach, right? That’s what you That’s I started off as CCA, but you did the peer recovery coach through Sparks, right? Yeah. Yeah. You got that PhD training immediately. Yeah. Yeah. It’s next level. I did with her immediately. What year did you do that? Um, I did that in 22. Okay. After I started working here. Uhhuh. I um got with her and did the peer recovery coach. Okay. And then with us, you went from CCA to peer recovery coach. Peer recovery coach. And I don’t know when we opened the PHP program, that’s when um I became um I was able to use my peer recovery coach skills. What did what is your what do we call you now? I am still peer recovery coach. That’s [ ] I’ll tell you that right now. She’s like director of some guarantee. But I work you know for outpatient. Yeah. Um but I’m over there and I’m with residential outpatient with everybody. Yeah. You’re kind of like an outpatient director kind of situation, you know, as it continues to grow because we got real small for a little bit. Yeah. You know, and y’all have been doing a great job um with growing that program back up. It’s been phenomenal. It’s been beautiful, man. They figured out that they really didn’t need no director cuz we was getting it done, right? Cuz she was looking right in front. She was sitting right in front. We was doing it. We was doing it, you know. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a beautiful thing. It’s beautiful. I remember it. I remember when I got my first key in recovery. They gave me a key. I don’t give a [ ] what the key was for. It could have been a massive lock on a tin shed over in the alleyway. You know what I mean? I got had a key. Yeah. You know what I mean? You know who’s got the most keys out of anyone in our entire this Miss P. Every time I see her, she’s like, “You need a key to this. You need a key to this.” I have a bowl and it’s just everything in there is from Miss Pat and they’re all keys. But you got to get indoors. You’re like this one’s for this one and this one. I was over at the house the other day doing the appraisal thing and I’m like what’s the code for this? Every door had a different man. You’re responsible for a lot. I care. Mhm. And um this is my this is my life. Mhm. This is my family
and I’m going to continue to do what I’m supposed to do. What good am I if I can’t guide or tell people what they want to know or what they need? I’m supposed to know where it is. I think everybody should know where it is. You know what I mean? cuz you have people that’s got so much going on till they don’t have time to think about that. Mhm. You know. Yeah. It’s even it’s even bigger than that for me. It I was thinking about it this morning actually when I was on my run and I’ve been sitting in I I always for whatever reason it’s just been built into me but I always try and sit in gratitude but lately I’ve been sitting in a lot of gratitude. Mhm. It’s a lot of gratitude um as a business owner, as a person, as a husband, as a father, as a friend. And um I’ve talked about on Finding Peaks, but I usually go around, but like business got really, really, really, really hard because it got complex because we opened a real estate company and we started doing real estate and treatment. And I’m grateful to be sitting with Miss Pat today, but if I went back and did it all over again, I probably wouldn’t have done it. if I knew the pandemic was coming and inflation all these things. So things were really really bad, right? And you like you talk a lot about inspiring our guests which you do in in our team’s leadership and otherwise. You do a really great job of that. Um but last May, you know, I came back as the CEO and I was scared to death, man. I didn’t know like I’d go in on a daily basis and make y’all believe like this was going to be successful. And I knew damn right damn well that that there was a higher likelihood that it was going to be unsuccessful every single day. And that was kind of my cross to bear what I started. But it what made it more bearable and what made it on days when it was really difficult just a little bit better was the way that you would look at me when I walk in cuz you didn’t have to say anything. You would look at me and be like, “You got you got this. Like you’re going to do this.” And I’d have all these doubts, man. It was people like you who looked at people like me and had such an impact on the way that I was able to put one foot in front of the other. And it was people like you that inspired this thing that I used to do. I used to look when I come around the corner and be like, “Look at this tile. It’s heron bone tiled. I really know that cuz Cassidy says it is.” Okay. Right. And um I appreciate that about you and I appreciate that belief. Um cuz it’s inspired this moment where we get to sit now and we get to have a lot of gratitude for what you and I and a multitude of other people have been able to build, sustain, and create over the last 12 months. And we made the impossible possible and now we’re here. You know, I don’t know if you know, but I believe in you. I know you do. You’re one of them ones. I’ll take you anywhere and know that we going to be all right. Yeah, just your personality, everything about you. I mean, I’ll take you anywhere with me. And I tell any of them, it’s like, you know, it’s not because you’re the owner or you’re my boss. It’s not that. It’s you
and I just want to let you know that. Yeah. You inspire me as well. Thank you, my friend. And that’s real. Yeah, I know it is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cassidy wish she could be here today with us. Yeah. I wish she could have. Yeah. It’s a beautiful thing, man. I was just chatting with her. I was just chatting with her last night. She’s like, “Man, we need to go out to dinner with them.” I was like, “Let’s do it.” Yeah. Let’s go. We have to. Yeah. But um this I have a purpose.
You remember what? This is my purpose. what it felt like what it feels like or what it felt like when that came alive for the first time. Oh, I’ll never forget it. Okay. I was right next door to this building in that house right there. Really? Yeah. And I came in and they were like, “Okay, you got Kipoo on your phone. That’s how you do this and this is how you do that.” And I was like, “I don’t even know how to answer my phone half the damn time.” What is these people talking about? So I walk in there, we leave Leah. Mhm. She leaves. The girl that’s supposed to train me, she was there for an hour and then she decided she wanted to leave and I’m by myself. Figure this thing out here. Mhm. walked around that house, asked everybody their names, and what can I do for them? How can I support them? Went home, got up that next morning, and walked in that door. Didn’t have no damn clue what I was going to do or how I was going to do it, but I felt like I’ve never felt before in my life. Hm. Because it it’s people like you and it’s people that have come before us that remind us the very simple tool of like if you can be with the people like if you can be authentic with the people but it really takes like stripping down you got to get rid of this some [ ] about how I look and how people are going to think you’re going to you know you got your shoe untie and I used to always be like that too. I’d be like we’re walking in now so [ ] all the [ ] dude. But like there was something that happened the people need in this this authentic thing. And I remember doing the big 12step thing and I’m just like hitting people. All I had was this baseball bat. So everybody’s a baseball [ ] [ __ ] We’re just doing home runs. And it’s like some people are cool then. Some people really appreciate it. But like most humans get down with just are are you are you being real with me? Are you being authentic with me? Cuz if that’s your real goofy ass self, like let me see it, right? you know, and so, um, that’s something really special that we we get to do at Peaks. I was we were touring that, uh, program yesterday, and I just gave that talk at the Colorado Champions called the five fingers of the glove. Did you know that? At a PowerPoint and everything. They made a PowerPoint for me. What? Yeah, I didn’t even Yeah, it was cool. Well, yeah. And it was the integration of substance use and mental health treatment. Here I am.
What do I know? You know what I mean? I know some people that know some [ ] for sure. Some real badass clinicians. They’re all around me. I’ve learned a little bit. But people thought that I was going to get up and I was going to talk there. I said, “You all think I’m going to come up and be like CBD and the modality and dialectical behavioral therapy. We want to transcend the model of clinical behavioral studies.” You know, it’s like, “No, no, no. I don’t need that [ ] We’re here.” like somebody does that, not me. I could take you anywhere.
So I’m like I told them all, right? I said I I probably didn’t mention your name. I got it recorded. I said it’s this thing that happens, man. You come in. People are making the most courageous decision of their lives. Takes one to no one. Right. Right. We understand that. We’ve inherited that. And and and then there’s all this [ ] we got to get done. And I need the Fitbit and the assessment and the consent to treat and psyche vow and this vow and the BMI and the T all this stuff. We got to have it all. Got but like there’s this real simple spot like where the juice is at and nobody’s squeezing it, you know? And it’s this human thing that you all do up there that like actually is a standard now that like we’re just going to be with people and then we’re going to get all the other [ ] done pretty quickly. Yeah. But the idea is we’re going to build trust. And that’s what I said in the talk. I said I got people up front like Miss Pat that like everybody calm down. Like we got a human in front of us. Got to is the h you know and then people in our field are like all right well let’s go get over and it’s like no man the human might be thirsty. You know what I mean? Like simple [ ] Yeah. It’s like when they go back to nursing it’s like are you hungry? I don’t like paperwork either. you know, like and you foster that because it’s you build trust with somebody um you see somebody, right? Cuz I remember when it happened to me when somebody saw I was like, you know, like you think you I have value. You really think so? All right, I’ll [ ] with you. You know, we we can hang out then. Cool. Then it’s like we’re off to the races, you know, when we’re walking together. And I think that’s the most powerful thing that we can do in recovery and as humans is is these people that get to show up and have this special thing with people on day one of courage. People come in that door. There’s a lot of them. They come in and you could just Well, for me, I could just see it and feel it that all they want is a hug from a stranger. Mhm. You know, that’s really powerful to me. Yeah,
man. They walk in the door and this, “Can I hug you?” Mhm. And but it’s kind when they know it. Mhm. And they know that everything that comes from me is genuine. They know it. Mhm. There’s no other way for it. And that’s from everybody that’s in peace or you ain’t getting that hug. Everybody. Yeah.
That’s where that’s that’s just what it’s about. Yeah. Everybody really has, to your point, everybody has their own unique way of showing the same thing we’re all talking about right now. You know what I mean? Everybody in there. like it’s uh it you know I’m loud and I make scenes and some people real quiet in the background just but they’re absolutely necessary y you know in value like coup man like he’s one of the people like you know you ever you ever heard anybody not say a nice thing about coup I mean everybody like coup because he’s everywhere man he’s a people’s like the human he’s a people’s champ he is yeah we don’t remember we going to have to bring him on the podcast I was talking about it the other Yeah, man. Bring him on. Go. They should. I know. Yeah. He’s on the ones and twos, man. We got a lot of people like that, man. A lot of architects in the back ensuring that the foundation is strong, you know. And what’s cool about it today, I think, for the most part, and I think it’s probably different than any other time in the 12 year history of Peaks Recovery. Mhm. Is I think most people know they’re valued in what they’re doing. and what they’re doing is extremely important, you know, and I think it’s been a shift over time going from like, you know, we we lost money for 3 years, so everything was very like can’t do anything. We can’t, you know, and and and it’s been cool over the last handful of months to be able to kind of open up and really begin to appreciate the team in a way and and value them in a way. You could tell the the ones that um don’t feel that way, they don’t last. Yeah, for sure. Because it But it ain’t got nothing to do with peace. It’s got something to do with them. Mhm. Yeah. You know, because if you know, and I tell people that come through their um all the time at their interviews, if you don’t got it to give Yeah. Ain’t the place for you. And it’s it’s not you. Yeah. You know, you got to you got to have that love. You got to have that love. You got to be kind. Yeah. And you can, you know, and you can tell Well, you could tell when people are are genuine. And people that’s not kind out there a person that’s in here can feel that you’re just doing this cuz you have to because I’m here. That’s not a part of you. Mhm. Yeah. And that that’s that that’s a lot. Mhm. That means a lot. Yeah. If you can’t do it outside of there, you can’t do it in here. It’s all fake. Yeah. And I see right through it. Yeah. You know, and that’s just like we said, Yeah. And there’s no way to quantify that on the Indeed post, you know? It’s got to be a part of you to be able to do it for it to be real, for it to even look real. You know what I mean? Yeah. the person don’t feel you, then that’s just what it is. That’s so funny you say that. And I can say that because I’ve been there the majority of my life on that other side. Mhm. But now I’m on this side. Mhm. You know what I mean? Mhm. Where it’s both. Yeah. That’s so funny you say cuz I, you know, over the last year, I mean, if we got 70 employees, you know, we’ve onboarded and oriented 40 of those people. Yeah. For sure. How many was it when I first started? It was over a hundred, wasn’t it? We had in 2020. It was more. We had 123 employees than guest. Oh, by 70. Like, man. Yeah. It was wild. We’re out there doing it, man. You got to have a business plan. You got to have a plan. If you don’t have a plan, man, you get shot down. But you know what I do miss from when I first started? What I do miss is everybody knew everybody. Mhm.
And you made that happen. Well, leadership where everybody knew everybody. We don’t get I remember when I started working it was like welcome Patricia, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome. Now when people come, I don’t see it. And I I miss that. It’s that off-site HR. I miss that so much. Yeah.
We all knew one another. Mhm. Even as big as it was. Even as big as it was. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Where people stopped and and would introduce this, “Hey, what’s your name?” Mhm. How you doing? You know, now we have sometimes, you know, you have people they just walk right by you. Well, they don’t walk by me cuz I I be like, “Hey, they don’t walk by me either.” Yeah. Yeah. this way you are too. Hey. Yeah. What did you just do? You know, but it’s just Yeah. The difference now is we’re operating a business and this real special familyowned situation we got going on. You know what I mean? And some people, you know, can be a part of the business and and some people feel a part of the other side. And that’s okay. But I think there’s a certain energy when you’re doing what’s best for the business that you’re always going to have. I think both. Yeah. A little bit of both, you know. And I think it’s valuable. It’s valuable, too. But it’s funny like the onboarding orientation thing. I’ll be sitting with people and I was like, “Yeah.” He’s usually like, “Yeah, you got to do this thing.” It’s like, “You got to care care.” And they’re like, “What?” I was like, “You’ll see.” But either you figure it out or you’re going to be really tired. You be all tired. And I know why you’re so tired. You know what I mean? Yeah, it’s so funny, man. It’s so good. I just I just want to thank you for the opportunity. Oh, you’re welcome. Thank you for the trust and the belief all these years. I believe in you. Yeah. Tell them quick. I don’t I don’t care what y’all talking about. I ain’t going nowhere. Yeah. Bye. Bye. I even told my wife, “Bye.” They’re all bye. That’s funny, man. Not going anywhere. No, it’s uh until it’s You say I got to go. Yeah. It’s just It’s this thing like um
when we’re operating in love and listen, man, I spent a lot of my life not operating in love and understanding what that is and that ecosystem of people um that have the opportunity to be within that. But I think when you’re operating in an ecosystem of love and authenticity in this human environment with people having this human experience, man, you’re real hard real hard to eliminate. You know, you’re real hard to to get gone. And in fact, I think it’s impossible. You know, I think love carries on. And I used to say things like, well, I didn’t I didn’t think, man, we’re doing a really good thing. Like, we should be successful. And that doesn’t always happen in business. doesn’t mean just cuz you have great apple pies that like doesn’t mean they’re going to sell. Don’t mean they’re going to sell, man. It’s like what’s the marketing look like? What’s the underpinning look like? You know, how does it work? Um, but I think ultimately with with Peaks Recovery in and the way that we get to show up today, um, I think there is some uniqueness because of the level of intimacy that we can walk through, because of the amount of people that we have and the amount of team members we have in order to serve them. I can’t believe we’re like the smallest thing in southern Colorado. We got 44 beds. Small. Small. It’s beautiful. You know, this is love. Yeah. Yeah. That make your cheeks hurt you smiling so big, right? I know, right? Oh, man. I’ve been there, too. It hurts. Yeah. It’s good, man. My favorite basketball coach and I believe this. That’s why I like running. But Jimmy Valvano won the national championship. He was like a six. Anyway, shouldn’t have won it. He had a heart of gold, man. And he went up and he went up. He was he died two months later of cancer. He formed the Jimmy Valv Foundation for Cancer Research. It’s raised more money for cancer research than any other foundation out there. So, he walks up there, man. He’s got tumors all over his body. And he he’s like he’s like a real like spirited Italian guy. And he’s like, I just think you should you should do these things every day. I think you should you should You should be moved to tears every day. You should you should have so much emotion that you’re moved to tears. You should laugh every day. You should celebrate every day. Like be with people like do these things. And I think and he goes, I think if you do that, it’ll be a good day. Yeah. It’ll be a good day. Yeah. That’s what I’m about. He’s like, I’m going feel a little bit of anger, too. You know, that just move through it all. I’m grateful to be here with you today. I am grateful to be on this earth and so humbled the opportunity that we have to be within the 24 hours that we’re in today. And uh I look forward to marching with you one day at a time and doing this thing like that I guess we call work.
Work work. Yeah. I was like I couldn’t believe it, man. I get a paycheck now. And I was telling people for what, you know, like I’m just doing what I love. And sometimes I got this busy work that happens like I was on this integration thing and like I got to do some CEO stuff and I’m there for it. Mhm. But otherwise, like I just want my heartbeat to be felt throughout that mother effort. I had when I when we were over here at the house, I had a a guest. her name was was um my I’ll never forget her um we were riding and she’s like you know I really love the kind of work that that you guys do that you do. She was like well but what course did you take you know to be able to work in this field and do what you do. I said girl my life. She said your life. I said yes ma’am. Yes ma’am. my life experiences. Yeah. What’ she say? She’s like, “No way. I want that. I want to do that course.” I was like, “You don’t want to do my life.” Yeah. Do the course. Take your life. Yeah. Yeah. You don’t want life. I don’t I don’t I don’t want no one to have to go through that do this part. Yeah. But Yeah. It’s it’s just so good to um see them when they walk in. Mhm. Some of them have broken and don’t even know whether they’re coming or going. Chris M. And then 45 days later, they’re like, “What do I need to do to stay?” Yeah. Helping you with tours? I I don’t want to go. Yeah. I’ve never felt so safe. Mhm. You know, trying to run out the door when they first was there and now they want to go hide in the closet so they don’t have to go and it’s just Oh, man. It’s priceless. Yeah. And we get to be there. It’s priceless. Yeah. And we don’t have to do treatment. We can just do life one day at a time. And I think when you look at it like that, it’s like it’s not it’s not work. like this is this is it is it’s profound. Yeah. It’s like like people are coming in and they’re doing a thing that’s like and we’re there. Yeah. The treatment I went through it was um in DOC. Mhm. And it’s TC therapeutic community. Yeah. you know, and and I’ve shared with a few people that
this treatment is love. That treatment, all they did was bring us down deeper. Mhm. You know, added on to the shame and the guilt. Mhm. Cuz that’s all you heard about is what you did,
you know? Mhm. And it’s just like half the people who had to go through that and then be on this side and see this treatment.
That’s wild. Can you imagine how many addicts that’s out there that don’t know? Cuz like for me, if id have had a peaks Yeah. back then, I wouldn’t have been in my addiction as long. And I know it because walking through peaks. You understand, you know, people there, they understand. They know what it’s like to be there. They know what we need, you know. Mhm. It’s hard to find in a lot of places. Yeah. I was actually talking about it yesterday. I was talking to a clinical director of a program, a good program, an outpatient program in Denver, and she’s like, “Well, this is how you got to care, and this is it.” And I said, “It’s I get it, man. Like, I agree. Like, what we’re doing needs to be done, but this isn’t touching 98% of the population,
like at all. At all.” And then, and that makes me sad. Right? Because that’s that’s what we’re talking about here is like you didn’t know. You thought you had to go through something because you deserved a therapeutic community, you know, with all the [ __ ] I did. And that’s what they make you believe, too, right? It’s like, no, man. This is just what you got, what you’ve always been, you know, like right here. Instead, like, and I used to say, and I didn’t go through a therapeutic community. I didn’t hear about him until I moved to Colorado. Um, but I used to say things like, “Well, I needed that.” I think what I needed was a hug and some love. And I eventually found that, but it took me a lot of years. Yeah. Don’t know it if you don’t know it. Yeah. And so that’s that’s my shtick with it’s not about the program or the resource in the community. It’s just um I want to aim, especially in my verbiage, in my conversation, to dismiss the shame um that for some reason has been a part of this recovery process for so many years. We we we don’t need that. And in fact, it’s not sustainable. That’s why they open extended care treatment 20 25 years ago in Florida. It’s like people in Alcoholics Anonymous, people with long-term recovery 15, 20 years are blowing their heads off. They’re not getting drunk. They’re dying sober.
You know, my name’s Chris Burns, your name is Patricia, and like there’s a lot more going on in your life today than alcoholism. Yeah. And I’m grateful to to let the people know that, you know, thanks. And I’m grateful to be more addicted today to the life that we get to experience, you know? It’s like cool. Like I want to I want to wake up tomorrow, you know, as I’m trying to be like how do I live to 140? Like I’m digging this [ __ ] right? They said I was talking to No, I wasn’t talking. I was listening to a podcast. They said, “If you’re alive in 8 years, you should be able to live to 120 cuz that’s going to be the advancements.” I was telling my boys this morning. What? Watch this. Ready? I tell my boys this morning, I said, “This place is going to blow up. This earth is really on fire here, but eventually, but not I’m going to be gone before it does.” Um, but I’m going to make sure I got him a reservation on the new Earth. Have you heard about the new the new planets? You haven’t heard about the new planets? Cool. What are they called? They’re called super planets. No, they’re super super Earth. Super Earth. Is that Super Earth? Oh, super Earth. Yeah, they’re super Earths, right? Aren’t they super Earth? Yeah, Super Earth. So, these Super Earth, they’re way off in the distance, right? But Elon Musk is trying to like get these things to like go to these super earths and they’re going to cultivate them. But they got like here, man, they got gravity and stuff. They’re way far away. It take a long time to get there. Like and I don’t know how long coup would know, but like I’m sure it’s like like days. It could be like I don’t know like 30 days to get the new earth. But when this environmentally if this place goes you want to have a reservation on the new So I told my boys today before I left, I said they’re like, “You got to work today?” I’m like, “You think I don’t work cuz it snows? I’m trying to get you a reservation on New Earth, you know, and that’s going to be expensive.” You and Judy are going to want to look into that, too. You don’t want to miss your You’re going to need a plane ticket to get over there. And then this is not a conspiracy theory show or anything like that. I just heard a podcast. New Earth, look them up. They’re crazy, man. I had no idea. I’m going to have Cool Cooper help me look it up. Well, you know how to do Keeper now. That’s cool. More than keeping. What is you talking about, man? Well, thanks for have this. I I never thought that I would be sitting here with you doing a podcast. And we’re a lot of people watch this. I watch them, but I never see myself sitting here. Oh, and C, thank you. You’re welcome. Thank you for all you do. Yeah. Looking forward to rocking it with you. You going to have to put me up. Let’s keep it moving. Yeah, me too. Yep. I’m here till the wheels fall off, buddy. Let’s do it. Or we get some new cool ones on. Yeah, let’s do that. Yeah, I love you. I appreciate you, my friend. I love you, too. All right, we’ll get back to it. And I mean that. I know you do, my beautiful people. Until next time, check us out podcast. We usually got pikes off to the left. We got the snow today. What a beautiful day to be alive and a blessed day to serve others. Until next time. Peace.

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Episode 162Shared Suffering, Shared Strength – Finding Purpose After Service with Michael SolleyWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/8Ta48vb37ZkListen NowDescriptionIn this episode of Finding Peaks, Chris sits with Michael Solley, combat veteran and Peaks Recovery Centers’ new Military Liaison, to explore the lasting impact of military service, leadership, and shared suffering. Mike reflects on his journey through the armed services, the brotherhood formed through adversity, and the challenges veterans face when transitioning back into everyday life. Together, they discuss community, purpose, giving back, and how Peaks Recovery Centers can better support veterans and active service members on their recovery journeys.

Talking Points1. Introduction to the Show 2. Meet Mike 3. Mike’s journey in the military 4. Community from the armed services 5. Leadership in the military 6. Sebastian Junger – War 7. The monster living in your room 8. Shared suffering 9. Where PRC can impact veterans and active service members 10. Leaving work at work 11. Giving back 12. Shared experiences 13. Final thoughts Quotes

“Your problems don’t just leave you because you left your home and joined the Army. A lot of those problems are going to follow you. . . Wherever you go, there you are” – Michael Solley

Episode Transcripts

Episode -162- TranscriptsYou know, I think for guys like me who had multiple combat deployments, seen a lot of, you know, death and destruction, I don’t think you you ever get past that. I think it’s something that you just get comfortable living with. Your problems don’t leave you just because you left your home and joined the army. Like a lot of those problems are going to follow you. So, you know, wherever you go, there you are. Yeah. Exactly. peaks uh in the work that we can do here is really going to mesh with kind of where I think the army’s going with um you know like mental health and substance use like help is not a cookie cutter solution right
hey everybody and welcome to another episode of finding peaks we’re at likeund and something getting close to 200 actually but uh I I am really excited today to be joined by my good friend, colleague, um, Army veteran, a good friend of mine, new and newly integrated into Peaks Recovery, military liaison, Michael Sullley. Grateful to have you on the show, sir. Thanks for having me here. I really appreciate it. Absolutely, man. I met Mike in jiu-jitsu about four years ago. Our kids fight together and kind of do this stuff. and had a meeting with him a couple months ago and we were on the precipice as I’ve talked about on the show of really starting to have a big integrated community integration and a larger footprint for not only our service members um our active service members but their families and their children and so Mike’s playing a huge role and already began to play a huge role in integrating us down there before Carson and um what makes you Mike what makes you so excited about kind of this uh this new path forward for you um professional Well, I think uh kind of for me it’s it’s a little novel. It’s new. It’s not really a space that I’m used to really working in. So, dealing with uh substance use disorder and mental health. Um, but you know, there’s kind of like the I guess an understanding of like what the problems are um when you’re an active duty service member and you’ve got, you know, you’re toggling a career and a family and, you know, whatever baggage you brought with you from the civilian world into, uh, you know, your home life in the army. And so, um, I just feel like it’s an opportunity, um, to kind of be a member of a team with you guys, um, that is really fulfilling for me and also help some people that can, you know, really use the help and maybe, uh, don’t have, uh, coping mechanisms that are going to be useful to them in the future or just useful to them in the present. um dealing with the day-to-day life of being in the military and as dynamic as the world is right now, it would be helpful to have some some coping mechanisms for sure. So, it’s just an opportunity to give back, I think, a little bit. Mhm. Yeah, I could tell. It’s interesting. Mike and I’s relationship came together. I really had no idea what he did. He had no idea what we did, but for some reason, we found ourselves in the same rooms together, whether it was Albuquerque last year or, you know, the meeting this year. And I think there’s just something about um some connectedness from a human perspective. And I think it goes back to like, you know, childhood. I think it has to go with growing up. I think it has to do with development and developmental stages when people were there and when they weren’t there. And um I think your experience, not only developmentally, but professionally um in the army aims to serve that when you have a great person your right and a great person your left, you can do really cool things. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Um, yeah. I think kind of us getting to this point is kind of been like the story of my life a little bit. You know, I’ve always kind of was like, who who do I need to hitch my wagon to, right? Who do I need to surround myself with? Um, and and when things were going really good for me, I hitched my wagon to the right people and kind of like, you know, surrounded people or surrounded myself with people that I knew were going to help me get to the future that I wanted, you know, or whether it was to be a good husband or to be a good father or to be um, you know, good at my job or just, you know, to be a good team player or just to be a good friend, you know. So, um I I’ve always kind of been on the lookout for that and I we’ve had conversations in the past like, you know, Chris, like I’d like to sit down and talk to you a little bit more, you know, and I I think that um I’ve always just kind of been aware of like who’s around me and like what’s my impression of like what are they about, you know? So, um that people relationship kind of thing has kind of always been something I’m attracted to, you know. And not only that, but something you’ve had to like develop. Like you talk about the leadership style in the army and how you’ve brought guys through and some of it’s like super compelling and interesting to me because it’s not it’s a really dynamic leadership style that clearly works in one of the largest companies in the entire world. And so what was it about and I think this will kind of draw into the passion where we sit today, but what was it about being a young man in the military that you felt like was going to be a good fit for you? And maybe you can take the viewers through, you know, what that young journey was like. Yeah. So, um born and raised in Houston, Texas, you know, um had a
lot of different experiences in my childhood. Some really, really bad, some really, really good. Um but always was kind of looking for that, I guess, father figure or or just that archetype of like what is a man, right? And so my dad was kind of like, you know, my biological father was um very troubled, had a lot of issues, a lot of substance abuse, a lot of uh there was some domestic violence and you know, just not a stable home life. Um and then my mom and dad separated and she met my uh stepfather, great guy, um but not like very forthcoming with his emotions, you know, told us he was proud of us, told us he loved us. Um but there was no hugs. there was no like, “Hey, let me sit you down and and put you on some game right now because you’re going to need this in the future.” Um because I just don’t know if he ever felt like that was his place. And so here I am, you know, fast forward to 2002. Um and I’m this troubled kid who’s like doing drugs and kind of don’t really know what I’m doing with my life. And 9/11 happens as a senior in high school. Um, and I’m kind of going through I’d moved out of my house and um was working and um still in school by the grace of God, you know, and then um the army recruiter called me one day out of the blue in like April. We had just invaded Afghanistan and he was like, “Hey, you ever thought about joining the army?” And I was like, “No, but I’m thinking about it now.” Um, and uh, I kind of just from that phone call, um, decided I was going to finish school, work that summer, and this is what I was going to do. Um, I always kind of felt like I was pulled to go do go somewhere and do something. Um, cuz I just knew that there was more to life than kind of what I was doing. And, uh, yeah, went went to basic training in August of 2002. um and found myself in Iraq not short not very long after that, you know. So, um but as far as your question goes, um I think that uh you know, as a young man in the military, I was really looking for like what is a man? Well, now you’re around all of these men and they come from all these different places, which I was not thinking about. M and I see like the ones that are like doing really good and they’ve got all of these schools and they’ve been to all these places and they’ve jumped out of planes and you know um it was always just like I want to do that. I want to do that. I want it was like fear of missing out like if I didn’t do it I was going to miss out on something some great opportunity even though I didn’t know what it was. Um but I think just a yearning to like know more. I was always kind of inquisitive and curious about people who did hard things. You know, I think that that’s a really sometimes undervalued and just your day-to-day dealings with people and walking through life. It’s like I always placed a really high importance on people who did like hard things like, “Oh man, that looks hard. That that is like really like how do how do you do that?” And then you realize it’s like an elephant that you have to eat. you just eat it one bite at a time and it, you know, sucks really hard and then you like you get used to that. You get inoculated to that. And so I think that’s kind of what it was just a a little bit of adventure seeking, you know, and then also kind of like wanting to see what’s out there, you know. So yeah, makes sense. And then and I’m sure every season as you progress through, you know, 22 23 year career is a new baseline. Yeah. And a new threshold of like what is actually possible, right? because the stories you’ve explained to me and I think that’s really what something really really cool that the army um and the armed forces can cultivate for you if you go in there is is like they can help this rapid growth and development process and they can create possibility where there’s impossibility and new foundations where it was I couldn’t even dream that big you know yeah I think um the cool thing at least my experience in the army is like people have done the math before you you know and it’s Yeah, there’s not always like these cookie cutter solutions to all of your problems, but there’s a lot of them, you know, and it’s like if you don’t have like a set of values or a set of beliefs or a leadership style or a set of principles to doing anything, somebody before you sat down, you know, a lot of them really smart guys and like did that homework and they were like, “Hey, man, these are the things that like make people tick, right? You’re going to get to a point in the army where you’re the one having to figure out what makes people tick and you’re the one that’s having to like show them that inspired leadership and you’re the going to be the one that has to figure out how to get these people to do this thing that they wouldn’t do on their own and then like get them to do it and do it well, you know? So, I think that that’s um super like it was just always very interesting to me that somebody sat down and like really broke down the kind of the human psyche at least for like a soldier. I was like, “Hey, we’ve we’ve done all this. We’ve experienced this. This is what worked for us and this is what didn’t.” Now, times change and, you know, people change and um you kind of got to figure out like, you know, what the leadership is for that season, like what your style is. But um you know, I think a lot of really good leadership, if you went and talked to those people like where’d you get your leadership style, they can probably point back to like the people that they saw do it really well and the people that they saw do it not very well. So I I would like to, you know, just give credit to all those great leaders before me that I would had the pleasure to serve with. Uh and all of it was just imitation, you know.
I love it though. Where did you know in your military career that you were going to move into like this more leadership role? When did you know like, hey, this is going to be a little this isn’t seasonal. It happens pretty fast, man. You know, like uh I was a young 19-year-old kid in torid Iraq. Um, and man, the world simplifies when you go to war, you know. Um, and uh, you know, you got to just make sure your weapon’s clean, make sure you’re right place, right time, right uniform, radios are working, trucks fill up with fuel, you know, I got all the stuff I need to to do our mission. And then, you know, at least my experience in the army is like your leadership potential is kind of based off of a lot of your potential to be a good subordinate. you know, like I was I I know I always look for that as a leader, it’s like, man, this guy just takes care of his business and he doesn’t have to be told to do a lot of things. Of course, you have to be taught to do these things, but once you’re taught, um, are you taking that like disciplined initiative to go out and do whatever it was you needed to do to make sure that we could go and, you know, fight the the nation’s enemies, you know. So, um, I think it happened pretty quick. Uh after that first deployment, um we came back, you know, 12-month deployment. Was there pretty much all of 2004. Um they were like, “Hey, you’re going to the sergeant board. We want you you have to study and go stand in front of all these first sergeants and the sergeant major.” And they kind of just drill you on all these questions. And it’s like, “Okay, well, you did what you had to do as a soldier. Now you’ve demonstrated that you are willing to like sit down and study regulation and all this stuff.” um and that you you want to be that you want to go to the next level to be a leader. So, you know, as a sergeant, you know. So, I think I I think I was a sergeant by the time I was 20 21 maybe, you know. So, um yeah, not very long. I was like in charge of a squad, you know, as like a 21 year old kid, you know. Yeah. People are juniors in college. Yeah. Out there. It’s like, all right. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And, you know, I didn’t think nothing of it. I thought that’s just how it is. You know, that’s I I knew that like this is what you’re supposed to do. You’re supposed to grow. You’re supposed to like learn how to do new things and then there’s going to be people coming in after you and you have to impart your your knowledge on them. It was never not ever something that I ever really questioned. Did you deploy twice before you were a sergeant? No, I deployed one time before I was a sergeant and then uh yeah, so um quick rundown of my like uh deployments kind of in that time it was like 2004 went to Torit. Um, I made sergeant like as soon as we got back. Um, and uh, it was a weird time. I I’m sure you remember like the stop loss stuff. So, like people were getting ready to get out of the army before we deployed the first time and they’re like, “Hey, you’re not getting out. You’re staying in. You got to deploy and then you can get out and get out. Then you can get out.” Yeah. Yeah. So, dudes are like thinking that they’re good. They’re going home. I don’t have to deploy. and it’s like, “Hey, you know, actually, I need you to go draw all of your gear again because you’ve already turned it in, but you’re staying.” And so, we went and did that deployment, come back. And uh everybody left. It was like this mass exodus. We had like a platoon of like 40some guys. It went down to seven people. And then all these new people started coming in and none of them had been anywhere. They were all like almost all brand new privates. It was like the ones that were seniors cuz I graduated 04. It was Mike people that were coming in. Yeah. So like um and nobody ever came to like take my job. Like a guy that was senior to me, a staff sergeant. So it was like, “Hey, uh Sie, Sergeant Sie, 20-year-old Sergeant Sie, you’re in charge of this these seven guys.” And then fast forward to 2006, a year and a half later, they’re like, “Oh yeah, still nobody’s came to to take my job. You’re going to take these seven dudes or eight dudes to war again in Baghdad, you know, during the surge.” So, um, talk about, uh, yeah, I had to be full of piss and vinegar like just to figure out how to do all that. And what kind of bond you building with those seven, eight guys? Like, it’s got to be I mean, we were tight. Um, so all of all of those guys, there was just a few of us. Uh, one, uh, really good friend of mine, uh, named Joe. He he was kind of like the senior of us but just barely, you know. He had he went to Kosobo and I didn’t go on that deployment because I wasn’t there yet. So like he had that one thing on me. 22. Yeah. He was like 20. He was maybe a year and a half older than me, you know, and we’re like we’re the senior dudes, you know. So but hey, you know that we were great because we were in our own minds hard as woodpecker lips and nobody could tell us different. Yeah. So it takes a little bit of that, man. For sure. Wow. So by the time you’re essentially most kids are getting their bachelor’s degree, you’re on your second deployment. Yeah, I’m on my second deployment and you know kicking indoors every night for 15 months and in Baghdad, Iraq, you know. Wow. So it was uh yeah, it was it definitely um lets you know what you’re made of pretty quickly, you know. Sebastian Junger, I was trying to think of it. Do you know it’s Sebastian Junger, right, Cove? Yes, sir. Okay. Sebastian Junger we had on the podcast. He’s an author. He’s not a military member. But he was interested on why people thrive in wartime settings and why they merely if they’re doing well survive when they get back. And so what he did is very invested in this project. He went and sat in the foxholes in Afghanistan with these like people like you guys with your seven people. Yeah. And he wrote about it and his book’s short and I read it and it’s what they because like I I think like the precipice like the pinnacle of the human experience is being seen, valued, and heard is what connects you in community, right? And I got to imagine what he said was like in those foxholes with those people, the person you’re right in your you don’t experience a deeper level of connection. You can’t. Yeah. I don’t think so. Like how would you, right? Yeah. I mean, you it’s like it’s like being married, right? You if you’re married for any like long duration of time, you see everything about that person. You see what you love about them. You see what you like about them. You see what you hate about them. You see what you don’t like about them, but you can tolerate, right? So, like, you know, you’re just you spend so much time with these guys and like number one, like you want to be successful, you want to do your job well, right? Um, but you also have these people that you’re like responsible for almost every aspect of their life. I need to make sure that they’re they’re fed, that they can do hygiene, that they can, you know, do all the maintenance on their equipment that they need to be. are they talking to their family, you know, are they getting the sleep that they needed to get, you know, and so, um, I didn’t know all of that stuff as a 22-year-old sergeant, you know, but I I knew I was lucky enough to have a really good platoon sergeant, platoon leader, and I was lucky enough to have just some good guys with me. Um, and we all kind of figured it out together. they probably figured it out and then told me what to do, you know, but but uh you know, like and then at the end of the day, like you don’t want to be sending people home in caskets, you know, that’s that’s heavy. Yeah. Um and it’s especially heavy when you’re very immature and you’re young, you know. Um, but it wasn’t something that was lost on us very quickly because uh especially that second deployment, we lost a lot of guys um in that unit. And um you know, we just we didn’t you didn’t want to be the one to mess it up. You didn’t want to be the bad egg. You didn’t want to be the the piece of crap that’s not pulling his weight. It was always kind of my motivation. It’s like, man, no, you got to do your job because there’s people that depend on you, you know, and so that was uh, you know, that was a very humbling experience even though if I didn’t realize how much at the time it was humbling me. Yeah. Just because of how young you were. Yeah. I had no perspective on anything. Now you look back like, whoa. Yeah. And I I I mean, we show up at peaks, you hear me, I’m like, “Today’s the Super Bowl.” And cuz there’s lives on the line. Yeah. But even more like you know like seriously like if I can’t rely on Peter I could be cuck today right you know and there’s a there’s a level of trust and a depth and a weight to relationship. Yeah. Um which is interesting because it’s you got to read that Sebastian Junger. You’ll love it. Yeah I’ll check it out. It’s good stuff for sure. Yeah. People seem to thrive in in what other people might think to be oh my gosh how do you do it? No way. There’s things I look back on all the time and I’m like, man, how do we pull that off? like, you know, like it’s I’m just amazed at like some of the things that we were capable of doing and and the these young men and and women too, you know, like some of the things that we were able to do, you know, like like how do you how do you get 22 year old 18 to 22 year old kids be like, “Hey, we’re going to go walk over that mountain and and we’ll be back in 3 days.” You know, like Yeah. Like, yeah, bring some water, bro. Yeah. Exactly. We’re going to walk 35 kilometers across this mountain range or this valley in Afghanistan, you know. It’s like I never would have dreamed that that I was even capable of doing that, you know. But literally, we’re going out 3 days on foot. Yeah. Yeah. That’s real. Sleep where we can sleep. Yeah. Yeah. We’ll we’ll go live in a goat pin or something for a day and then we’ll move on to the next one, you know? Yeah. Some people think they like the outdoors, you know? Yeah. Backpacking, dude. My wife always gives me a hard time. She’s like, “You want to go hike?” It’s like I’ve done a lot of hiking. You know what? I’m all hyped out, man. Not all hiked out, but but there I got to be in the mood for it for sure. Tell Tim, man. See, they drop me off, man. They pick me up two days later. Yeah. It’s crazy. I could be walking all over the place. Or they’re like, “Hey, we got to wait for these helicopters to come pick us up. We can’t We’re too far to walk back. We’re like in a very extended range of like artillery with these special rounds that can reach us.” Like, we have no We outstepped our support here. Get back on the line. Yeah, that’s funny, man. What a wild ride. So, both Afghanistan and Iraq. Yeah. Yeah. So, I did uh uh I went to uh Iraq twice. Um Iraq started kind of cooling off about 2008. Um and it eventually kind of wrapped up and then went to um RC East in Afghanistan, Gazny. Um kind of doing uh some like making sure that the the main highway through Afghanistan was kind of staying clear. Um, not at that. Everybody likes to blow it up. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that’s it was kind of like the the modus operandi at the of the highway. Yeah. Oh, damn. So, they’ll just put a huge house-sized hole in the middle of it and you’re like, “All right, now you got to figure this out. Get the tractor out of it.” Yeah. So, we would like, you know, do a lot of stuff in the villages around there just kind of trying to keep that secure. And um that was uh wasn’t too bad. And then, uh did that for like I think seven months or so. and then uh went and did some other assignments and kind of Afghanistan cooled off a little bit and then ended up back in Iraq in 2017 in Mosul um fighting ISIS, you know. So um yeah, four you four different combat deployments um mostly uh with uh the first infantry division and the 82nd Airborne Division. Um but you know like I look at the time I hated it but I look back on it I’m like man it was what a time to be alive you know like a lot of hurt but a lot of good too. Um and and it really builds character especially uh as you consider like those deployments like the first one in 2004 I was like living in a Saddam’s palace and then the last one in 2017 I’m like living in this bombed out building you know or like filling sandbags to just kind of keep overhead cover and stay safe you know and like right where everything was happening in Missoul. So um man that’s shifted a little bit here. Yeah for sure. Like what and you’re older and more mature and wise to everything. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think uh the the older and more mature and wiser I got, I think the the more scared I got, you know, something about that naivity that’s like Yeah. You know, like if if you how can you be scared of something you don’t know you’re supposed to be scared of it, you know? So, um, one of my big things, and you’ve heard me say it, is, and it’d be interesting if somehow Peaks and the mission can reach this deep, but I’ve always wondered why we don’t roll out the red carpet, especially for folks coming back from war times, you know, like you get off the plane, you get 30 days off, you get a nice spa retreat, some good therapy, some PE, maybe it’s an Ibagane, maybe It’s one of these things that we know are like helping people get through this because one of the saddest things I see like if they if they make it to the chair you’re sitting in all is well that ends well, right? But not a lot of people make it to the chair you’re sitting in. Yeah. I mean I think there’s still a lot of combat vets especially like us Giwa kids. It’s kind of the the the term that’s getting thrown around now. Um there’s still a lot of guys out there that are productive but there’s a lot of guys who are not. And um I I couldn’t tell you why I think people don’t like kind of roll out the red carpet per se for combat bets is like I think there’s still a little bit of a stigma. Um it’s almost like think about Memorial Day, right? You want to tell people like, “Hey, happy Memorial Day.” Like this is we should we should celebrate this day. But how do you celebrate something that’s sad? How do you celebrate something that is has so much grief and loss attached to it? Um, people tell me all the time, “Thank you.” You know, and and they were when we were coming home. Um, but it’s I I don’t really know how to put my thumb on like what it is that that kind of keeps us from um kind of like being like putting those guys on a pedestal. Not that I necessarily think they always should be, but um it’s it’s it’s almost like a dirty little secret like, “Hey, I’m proud of you, but man, like bore sucks, you know, like this is all of this is bad, you know, and and for whatever reason, we’re over there for reasons you agree with or you disagree with, but um and then that at the end of the day, you know, it comes down a lot of times to, you know, dollars too, you know, But there are a lot of people out there who did a lot of great things for their country and did a lot of great things for the people to the left and right of them that are really really really struggling. Right. Yeah. And that’s that’s my thing is it was one of the saddest things to see when I came to Colorado Springs and we weren’t in network with Triare Tri West is that somebody could go work on a military installation and then get Blue Cross Blue Shield Federal cover any treatment program in the United States and here our service members active and otherwise families independents. Yeah. Don’t have a space to call home like that. But and so there’s just such a division there. And so I’m starting to see at least through Triare some little bit more access to care. There’s one program I’ve told you about. It’s been a network with Tryare forever and it’s one of I think one of the greatest programs in the country, right? And it’s uh the Meadows in Wickerberg, Arizona. So, but yeah, I just think you know, you’ve talked about it before. We have a huge investment um in these men and women often times millions of dollars, right? um invested and for good reason. I just wonder if we invested a fraction of that in the afterare or the aftermath, you know. Yeah. I can tell you right now like the military uh and the government doesn’t always do good with like the follow through on things. Like the the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Like there’s usually good intentions behind anything at like the the operational level in the army. It’s like, hey, we’re going to do this thing. We’re going to do this thing. We’re going to make sure we take care of you. Mhm. Well, it’s like you get the thing done and then dollars dry up and then you know there’s like you know leadership change or there’s um you know a new party has taken over an office and agendas change quickly, right? And so um yeah, it does. It goes back and forth. I saw it go back and forth a couple of times just in my 22 years. Um but you know it’s I I think um it it’s just really just not the hot plate item, you know. Um, and and that’s really unfortunate cuz there’s a lot of people who probably could still be very productive members of society and take the those leadership lessons that they learned from those mentors to the left and right and all those good people and apply it to their business dealings or their home life or just their dayto-day interactions with people. um and they can’t because they are hung up with substance abuse or they’re hung up with PTSD and just, you know, emotional regulation. So, um it is a fortunate thing that I think happens. Um and it it definitely is something that, you know, we could be doing better as a nation, you know. Yeah. I wonder I’m I’m sure they’re beginning to do more of a costbenefit analysis on it. Yeah. Long term. Yeah. And it could for me it’s almost and I don’t you tell me but like it almost seems like just redefining when the mission’s complete you know some term or another. I think you know I think for guys like me who had multiple combat deployments seen a lot of you know death and destruction. I don’t think you you ever get past that. I think it’s something that you just get comfortable living with. You know it’s like a monster that lives in your room. He’s not going to do anything to you or if you pay him the correct attention. But the minute you stop paying attention to him and stop feeding him in the way he he needs to be fed to keep him docile and quiet, he shows up. Yep. You know, so Yeah. And what you mean by that is like showing up, doing hard things, getting some sun on your face, doing some jiu-jitsu, lifting some weights, doing things you don’t want to do, moving through uncomfortability, which is that’s the RX, but man, for it’s just really difficult for some people to get there. Getting started and then keeping it going. Once you do, I’m a living testament to that. like if I’m not doing, you know, those hard things or working out or or, you know, you know, challenging myself, whether it’s my mind or my body, I’m not the best version of me. So, um, I’m blessed enough and lucky enough that I realize that, you know, like I understand that there are thing things I have to do for me to be the best version of myself. Mhm. There are so many guys that never got to that point, you know, that like like I did all this stuff in the army and then like I got out and you know the economy was bad when the wars were slowing down, you know, 2009, 10, 11, 12. Um, and then you’re stuck and you’ve developed all these little things that are just hanging off of you. Um, and you don’t have any way to kind of put it away and get on with your life, you know. Yeah. And then then the new baseline becomes really difficult. Yeah. Foundation. Yeah. Because this is the new normal is like just grinning and bearing, you know, every day. And that that’s hard. And that I hate that for people. It’s like you you gave so much of yourself, whether it be physically or mentally. Um, and now you’re just this empty shell and you’re just you have no purpose and you’re not um living a fulfilled life when I think you should if you go to war as a young man, you come back, you know, not a whole lot of reasons better than to like live a fulfilled life and be like, “Hey, I made it through all of that.” Yeah. So, but we lose perspective on that. I know, man. And I really want like when you talk about this, like I almost think, well, insurance wouldn’t pay for it. Yeah. but just like a retreat for like military service members. I also I always think of like uh Cameron Haynes and the work those guys do with Ubermen and the military and just getting they’ll carry a stone up a mountain. Yeah. Sounds crazy, man. But like the bonds that are formed, the um resilience that’s obtained, the connectedness that’s in it’s like it’s spiritual, man. It’s like church. Yeah. Shared suffering, right? Shared suffering is a is a I Yeah, that’s the So good. That’s why you see people that have been, you know, together like married for a long time and they’ve really been through it. They’re just so calm. They’re like, “Yeah, whatever.” Shared suffering is like I don’t think you can be inoculated to get something better than that. But, you know, the trade-off is that like if you’ve done a lot of shared suffering with somebody, you got to continue that community um once you get out of the military. I was, you know, luckily smart enough to realize that like for me that was like jiu-jitsu, you know, like I knew I was like, okay, I had to get out fast. Ended up having to have my neck surgery. Got medically retired. Um, and uh I was like, I’m going to need somebody. I’m going to need some form of dudes around me to like just keep me sane, you know? Um, and he, you know what, it’s still hard to talk to him. It’s still hard to be like, “Hey man, I need help.” Hey man, how are you doing? Yeah, I’m not doing great. Yeah, good, man. Yeah, you know, yeah, it can be tough, man. But then when you do it, it’s uh it’s a very cool thing. And I think even more so I’ I’ve always said like community for me is everything. But going back to Sebastian Junger’s work and your experience, it’s like, man, can I just get like I actually really really need a great person on my right, great person on my left. Yeah. Like it’s actually non-negotiable, especially in from what you’re telling me with combat vets. Like that’s that’s that’s at the very least what is necessary for thriving for somebody who has been through that type of intensity. Yeah, for sure. For sure. That’s basine. Yeah. And you know, it’s like you know the whether it’s you’re doing something hard together or you experience loss together or you do something really good together. Um I think when you’re kind of in the military and you’re deploying and going to war, um the whole time you’re just like I just want some privacy. I want some peace. I want to be away from these dudes. And then you look, you know, fast forward 10 years in the future and you’re not in the military anymore. You’re like, man, I wish I I miss that, you know, like the brotherhood. And and you know, you might not even like all the dudes in your unit, but they’re still there. They’re still doing the same crap you are, you know? Um, and I that’s a really hard thing to find like in civilian society in America is like, hey, these are the boys. The boys ain’t changing. boys ain’t going nowhere, you know? So, um, that’s what I was really that’s why I love this recovery process so much and feel like I was just like extraordinarily blessed and able to turn pain into purpose at like a really young age is like, dude, like I felt like I was fighting for my life. Yeah. I was either going to die in a prison cell or somewhere out in the street doing something stupid, some high-risisk behavior. And then you get these other guys very similar like in a way like we’re going into aa we’re going into this thing as 20 year olds. We’re not going to drink anymore. Yeah. We’re not going to do drugs. We’re going to [ ] do it together. And then we’re going to meet at the gym in the evening and [ ] just turn up the music. Yeah. You know what I mean? And then you do this with these people for like 5 6 7 10 14 13. Mhm. and you’re like, I I just feel so grateful that that that actually was the ethos of which recovery has to go through is this connection thing. But as a young kid, if you don’t go to war, if you don’t you’re not fighting for your life for an opiate addiction, like you don’t you don’t see that. Yeah. I think that’s a I that’s a really great segue into kind of like um I think a big thing for military members especially uh guys with combat trauma and stress is like you know we boosted together hard you know when in our off time like we worked hard and we played hard and then like you start looking for that camaraderie and that community again and you’re not in the military anymore and you’re like oh well I used to you know we go party hard with the boys well now you don’t have those same boys those boys don’t have the same experience and then you find yourself partying hard by yourself because that’s the only thing you have left from that, you know, and you’re, you know, a lot of people just can’t really figure that out. It’s like I’m doing all this because I’m looking for a feeling um that I had when I had this community and now I don’t have this community anymore and I’m selfisolating and I’m abusing substances or whatever your vice is, you know. Um and I that that’s I think a real problem. Um I a lot of my friends that I’ve talked to, they’re retired or or ETS in their term of service out of the military. A lot of them went through that, you know. Um I just recently went and saw a bunch of guys. I went to combat with uh not too long ago in February, we um good good friend of mine. He was uh one of my soldiers um passed away on a motorcycle wreck. And I we were just kind of catching up, eating dinner and stuff. They’re like, “Yeah, kind of went off the deep end, went on like a two-year bender, you know, and, you know, kind of just now pulling myself up by the bootstraps.” And it’s like, why do we let it get that far? Like the it’s 2026. I can pick up the phone, call anybody, you know, so a little bit of the onus is on us, too. Um, but it’s it’s a real thing, man. It’s hard to explain. It’s hard to explain that feeling of I’ve lost something, but I don’t know what I lost and I don’t know how to communicate it, you know, and it’s it’s companionship. Yep. I think so. I think so, too. I mean, pretty clearly, even just from hanging out with you and the other vets and combat vets have had the opportunity to check in with. And it’s interesting, too, because I’ve been doing this work a long time, and I’m not able to make the impact in that community that you’re able to make. Yeah. And which I think is really, really special. And that’s why I’m so excited. He’s going to go sneak me on to Fort Carson later. Um, but we’re going on Fort Carson here next week, man. We got, you know, we’re sitting down with people and I think you have a real opportunity with the support of Peaks behind you, frankly, with the programs they defi describe that they work with to do something incredibly impactful, not only in Fort Carson, but in Colorado Springs and potentially, you know, the region, the world, make big impacts. Right. Super excited about that, too. Um, you know, I’m just I understand kind of the problems that they have as far as like being a leader in those units down there. And, you know, there’s never enough providers. There’s always too many patients that are coming in. Um, and I think that, uh, Peaks, uh, and the work that we can do here is really going to mesh with kind of where I think the Army’s going with, um, you know, like mental health and substance use like help is not a cookie cutter solution, right? The army is always like, “Hey, we’re going to give you the onesizefits solution.” Um, and for a lot of people, what they’re providing on Fort Carson is probably more than enough, right? But there are times when when um maybe there is a wait or maybe there is uh somebody does need some acute care or whatever the case may be. Um and um Fort Carson can’t provide that. I think we can help fill those gaps. Um especially being here in the community. Um, I think that that’s very important. Um, I know that I wish when I retired that I would have been a little more preemptive and preparing myself for dealing with regular civilian life problems. You know, a lot of times the solution, or at least my solution, the army was like, “Hey, just walk in, dominate the room. If you’re in charge, be in charge.” You know, that doesn’t work all the time out here. Out here, you know, like dang, man. Like, bro, who is this guy and who does he think he is? You know? Yeah, for sure. Um, but you know, that’s a real thing. Um, and you know, like people think that you know, you you leave a bad home environment from wherever you are, you know, XYZ USA. And it’s like your problems don’t leave you just because you left your home and joined the army. Like a lot of those problems are going to follow you. So, you know, wherever you go, there you are. Yeah. Exactly. So, that’s what they say. I was I got sober. I was like, “Well, I think I’m just going to move to Kentucky.” Yeah. And they’re like, “Will you still be looking at yourself in the mirror?” I’m like, “Damn.” Yeah. Really? Yeah. Yeah. If kids were sitting at MAPS in their city and they were like, “Hey, we’re going to You got a lot of childhood trauma.” All these dudes have childhood trauma, too. They’ll be like, “No, I don’t think I want to do that.” But I always say, “We’re not pulling silver spoons out of people’s mouth to put them in the military.” Yeah, for sure. So, like you get you get around up a lot of people like you, a lot of people who grew up like you, a lot of people who have the same problems you had. And then what do you guys do? Y’all do the same thing that y’all were doing when you were, you know, back home. Maybe you’re not doing drugs, but you’re making up for it with the drinking and and partying and staying out late and whatever, you know. So, um I I do think that we can make a lot of uh impact in that community. And, you know, like we need it as a country. We need it. We need healthy people. um doing that job, you know, we can’t afford to have people who are halfcocked, you know, so to say. Yeah. And I love your approach, too, cuz you obviously the active service members is a huge passion of yours, but you know, you have a family. You had kids in the military. Yeah. All of them. Yeah. You know, and so having proper support and good support, like when vets walk in our program, they’re like, “This is really nice.” Like, “Dude, you deserve nothing less.” Yeah. Like, bro, you deserve a nice place to figure out your things, you know? Yeah. And where you can just be you and people are just going to accept you for you. Not what you are, not what your rank says or, you know, what uniform you’re wearing or what silly hat you’re wearing, you know? It’s like just a place where you don’t have to focus on anything but you. Um, and I think that’s important. And and you know, like we always talk about in the army is like the servant leadership. Servant leadership, intrusive leadership. Well, you can go so far down that rabbit hole that you’re not serving yourself like you need to. Um, and then, you know, you you don’t have any people that you need to serve and be their leader anymore and uh your family are not in the army and then you have this giant hole in you where you didn’t take care of yourself. Um, and you didn’t really kind of put the things in order that you needed to to continue your life. Um, and that’s hard, man. It’s and it’s not an easy problem to fix. How do you fix 22 years of doing one thing this thing one way? Yeah. You know, that’s two decades. That’s wild. And to show up there not as a master sergeant. Yeah. But and I’ve only done treatment and been like CEO, president guy. Like nothing on that level where like like But I used to have to go home and be like, “Dude, shut it off.” Like that you’re not a boss. These aren’t your employees. They’re not your boys. Like this your [ ] family. Yeah. And so I’d have to do this breathing thing be like, “Dude, disconnect from whatever you think you’re doing right now cuz they can’t handle this type energy.” Yeah. You know, I bet it’s even harder on your side. Well, that’s what I did. So, I always made sure that I changed clothes before I came home. I would not like wear my uniform home. I wouldn’t just get in the car and drive home. It’s like, okay, I’m taking off the monkey suit. I’m going put it away. Now, Mike’s here. Well, I didn’t have a uniform anymore. And there was this like person in me, you know, where do you put him, you know, and where does he go? And um so it’s it can be very hard to kind of know who you are and and like when I say know who you are, like who is Mike Sullie, you know? Um because you’re as much as I used to say it. I was like, “Oh, the army is not my identity.” Well, yeah. Yeah, bro. It was. You were in the army longer than you were a civilian. Shut up. Yeah, you were. Yeah, you were. Yeah. So, exactly, man. That’s That’s cool. Yeah. Because at 42 I’ve been or at 44 I’ve been sober longer than h longer than half my life. Exactly. But you were in longer than half your life. Yeah. I mean that’s insane. Yeah, it is. It is insane. And you don’t you think it’s not a thing until it is. And and we don’t always get to choose the things in our life that are actually things, you know. So, um I I just really feel like um I’m kind of being drawn towards like this work, you know. I feel like my life is like that a lot of times. a recruiter calls me out of the blue. Um I know you for 4 years. I’m like, you know, was really struggling. I’m like, “Hey, Chris, we should get coffee sometime.” I don’t think we ever did get that coffee, but um and then you’re like, “Hey, we’re talking about doing this thing. I want you to come in and talk.” And it’s like, well, sometimes there’s just some sort of divine intervention, dude. And you know, on that day, I’ve told you like I’m like, “What is this meeting about?” Yeah. Like they’re like Matt and Mike and DC are up front. And like and I was sitting there and I’m like thinking maybe there’s an agenda. DC and Matt don’t schedule meetings where there’s not like [ ] going on. And then it dawns on me like no we’re just doing this thing. And then it dawn I’m like wait a minute Mike’s a new military liaison. I’m like it’s going down baby. I’m like holy [ __ ] You know it’s like perfect timing. If nothing else I can at least speak the language. That’s good. Yeah. I’m really excited to uh not only have that meeting, but really begin to have a community impact for the people that serve this country, their family members, and really have a more dynamic and more of a custom fit approach. Yeah. To active service members and their families. And I think that’s what we’re going to be able to cultivate um through your willingness and and of course the relationships that you already have is like, you know, we want to go in there and really say like not only how can we fill a gap, but like what do you need long term? how can we grow this? How can we make it easier? How can we create better soldiers, family members, um, and the like. So, I’m I’m really excited about the opportunity that we have in front of us. Yeah, I’m I’m super excited. like what I if I could like be king for a day and it’s like I’m going to make this thing happen. It’s like I I feel like there’s so many men out there who serve their country um and women too um that they have all of this potential and lessons learned and like how to like be productive and like be productive with a as a team. um that if we can help these people who have all these lessons learned and we can put them out there in the community, they can have a huge impact on on just the younger generation, you know, and I I would hate to see just all of that knowledge and just wisdom, you know, really it’s just wisdom um just die with them, you know, because that’s how wisdom dies, you know. So, um, I think it’s a really good opportunity for for me to give back and hopefully help enough people and inspire enough people for them to want to get out and give back, too. Whether that’s youth sports or volunteering and um, you just joining corporate America, you know, like I think that that is so overlooked. It’s like, all right, I’ve done this at the highest stakes. what we’re dealing with right now in corporate America. This is not life or death. We can figure this out. Just maybe that level of just confidence like we can we can get to yes on this. You know, there’s hundreds thousands of guys out there that are like wired that way, but because they can’t get past their own issues and trauma, um, grief and loss and stuff like that that they get stuck and they don’t get to help other people because they need help themselves. Mhm. Yeah, man. It’s going to be uh I’m I’m really excited. It’s been all these years. I mean, we were never in network with TriRiCare, Tri West, looking to move into the VA uh situation as well and and just kind of really move through it. You know, it’s it’s cool when they describe the not the companies, but the resources that they’ve been working with over the years and and why I think Peaks Recovery presents like maybe just a little bit of a differentiator, you know, a little bit different of an opportunity, a more s sophisticated, thoughtful, curious way to approach like helping service members. And we approach it from like, well, we don’t know. You tell us what you need. Yeah. What do you need? Which is wildly insightful. It is. you know, it’s like, how do I get my ego out of the way of this so I can actually help you? It’s like, oh, I’m I’m Mike and this is what I can do. It’s like, well, hey, what do you need me to do? All right, I’m going to figure this out. You know, that’s the probably the most, you know, emotionally intelligent thing we can do. Um, and and I think that people that need help, uh, especially in the military, they want that. They want I want you to see me as a person. You know, my last name is on here for a reason. It’s who I am. It’s not what I do. is who I am. That’s the only thing on this entire uniform that is me, right? Um so I think that that is like going to be a breath of fresh air for people that are, you know, potentially coming to see us. Um and and I just being around the campus and going through some of the you know group sessions and individual sessions and kind of seeing how Peaks works like I think that that is going to be a a strength for Peaks helping out service members and their families. Absolutely. And I love what you were talking about too is like dude my favorite employees are like when when act when combat vets and active service like when they get it right and they come into the like they’re the best. Yeah, like Chris in our nursing department, like get out of here. Like he’s the best. Why? Well, he he figured out a way to get in that seat to take what he learned in the military, cultivate it, and use it for something good and had great people to his right and to his left. And so, I love that what you’re talking about is like potentially doing job fairs up there is like for nursing and therapists and this and PhDs and like, hey, man, because you know, I think if you transition from a military career into some sort of behavioral health, it will inform the foundation connectivity you need to do to do your own thing. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I think like, oh, and by the way, you don’t have to do this in an austere environment, right? This is great. You don’t have to do this in a tent in the middle of somewhere or some airport. It’s climate controlled and everything. Yeah. Yeah. You don’t have to We’re not going to make you come in at 6:30 in the morning and do PT that you may or may not want to do. Do that. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a It’s a great opportunity. Um I’m so looking forward to kind of just getting down in the weeds and just talking to people, you know? I just I like uh I like relating to people and I like hearing who they are and where they’ve been and what have you done and oh man that’s cool. You were there at that thing, you know. Um and and it kind of like just that shared experience of just being in the military for that long and doing that many deployments. I think it really resonates with people. You’re like, “Okay, you hear me. You understand?” you know, and and being in the army is not they think it’s like full metal jacket, stand up straight, you know, private pile. It’s not that, you know, it’s there is some of that. Um, and that’s that’s definitely part of it, but you know, like just the day-to-day marathon of being like a guy in the military, like it don’t stop and it’s going to keep going with or without you, right? And if you give everything to the military, it will take everything you will give and it will give you nothing back but memories and in a DD214, you know. So like what you what you get back from the military, it’s already given you, you know, you just got to figure out how to be resourceful with all of that information and knowledge and experience and apply that into things that are practical um after your career career in the military. Yeah. you know, and and not everybody is that insightful, you know, there’s not. And so, um, if we can help in that facet and like just help people live like productive and generally happy lives, dude, that you deserve that, you know, you deserve it for sure. Everybody deserves that. You know, nobody deserves to just be miserable and like, you know, dragging around this, you know, proverbial rucksack, you know, for the rest of their life. I there’s you see them all the time. you pass by them on 25 every day and they’re just like they don’t know what to do with all this baggage. It’s like you can do something with it. You just got to look at it differently. Yeah. Well stated. Yeah. Yeah. Well stated. I was talking I was on a call this morning and I said somebody’s asking well how’s the military? I said you know this is going to be a new vertical for us but frankly man we’re going to check back in with Mike here in like 3 to 6 months. We might have an entirely new program built out of this. more will be revealed, man. Trust the process. Grateful to have you here. Thanks for coming on the show. Thanks for all you do in the community. Four Peaks. Um, looking forward to a lot of one days at a time. Hey, thank you for thinking I’m smart enough to even do this. Let’s go, baby. Yeah. Appreciate you, Mike. All right, my beautiful people. Until next time. If I didn’t say it on the front end, they’ll introduce me with a little thing that says Chris Burns, president, founder. Have a beautiful day. Don’t forget to get outside and look at Pikes.
Heat. Hey, Heat.

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Episode 161Connections That Build Bridges – Pierce Rosengren on Life & RecoveryWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/f7xLIeKXWAsListen NowDescriptionIn this episode of Finding Peaks, Chris sits with Sunwave & Lightning Step Account Executive Pierce Rosengren for a conversation centered around recovery, identity, growth, and purpose. Pierce shares his personal recovery journey, lessons learned through life and fatherhood, and the principles that continue to guide him both personally and professionally. Together, Chris and Pierce explore the impact of music on healing and self-expression, the importance of reconnecting with your true self, and how meaningful human connection can build bridges in recovery and behavioral health. Through honest stories, reflection, and laughter, this episode is a reminder to stay grounded, embrace growth, and “be present where your feet are.”

Talking Points1. Introduction to the Show 2. Meet Pierce 3. Pierce’s recovery journey 4. Just a piece 5. Principles for life 6. Adjustment to fatherhood 7. The impact of music 8. Early expectations 9. Greatness is selfless exceptilism 10. Reconnecting to your true self 11. Working in behavioral health 12. Met with love 13. Connections that build bridges 14. The next 10 years for Pierce 15. Be present where your feet are 16. Final thoughts Quotes

“Everybody is going to be on their own journey. Everyone is going to have their own steps to take. And I think what I need to be careful of when I am helping someone, is not to take those steps for them.”– Pierce Rosengren

Episode Transcripts

Episode -161- TranscriptsEverybody’s going to be on their own journey. Everybody’s going to have their own steps to take. And I think what I need to be careful of when I’m helping somebody is not taking those steps for them. Now, I say I want individuals to see themselves in their own story, in their own recovery. It’s personalized, fits like a glove. this. But when you have somebody doing great work and they’re doing like phenomenal treatment and they’re reaching people where they’re at in the community and then you have somebody else that’s offering a different type of service and you connect those two people, dude, you just built a bridge that so many people can cross. So many people can cross that bridge and so many relation new relationships can be built off that.
Hey everybody and welcome to another episode of Finding Peaks. Yours truly, grateful recovering member of society. Chris Burns, president and founder, Peaks Recovery Centers. So grateful to be joined by a friend, colleague, um account executive over at Sunwave Human and Long-Term Recovery, dear friend of mine, uh Pierce. Welcome to the show, my friend. I’m so excited to be here. Yeah, it’s so exciting. I was thinking this morning when I was getting up looking at the mountains because I’m not from here as you know I’m from little small town in Oklahoma called Davis home of Turner Falls and uh so we don’t have these big beautiful peaks out here and I’m sitting thinking and and this happens to me consistently. I think how did I get here? Mhm. Like what got me here? Mhm. And it’s not and and sitting in this podcast today, I’m incredibly grateful. And it’s not that I feel like unworthy. It’s not that I don’t feel like I like I don’t have an imposttor syndrome, but it’s more like what am I doing here? Mhm. Like how did I go from being that young lost kid with no direction, no close tie to my family, no friends to sitting here knee to knee with you looking at pikes. Hey man, speaking on some experience, strength and hope. It’s a beautiful thing. Yeah. And one of which throughout my recovery and throughout my professional journey, I missed that opportunity to be present with that. Mhm. We were at I’ve talked about it on the show before, but since you brought it up, um I was sitting at the conference, maybe I mentioned it to you with Cassidy, and it was like our 12th year of setting up and you know, I’m 40 now and we’ve been out here a while and it was one of these things where like it’s okay to say like I I made it like I’m doing it. M and to recognize that and to sit with that and to become witness to that on a daily basis, I think is what creates like a lot of momentum and a lot of really good one days at a time and and and what can be like a celebration of life. And I think that’s kind of what you’re talking about. It’s like a wow. Yeah. You know, I said it last night in the, you know, and I believe in the spot in the Big B when it talks about rocketing like I I took that very seriously. I want to see what that felt like. Mhm. You know. Mhm. And now now I just want to share with people. Yeah. I just want to share with people and show people that like it is possible to step forth. So when I when I started my recovery journey um and I’m really looking forward to going through all this. It’s funny. I was in the bathroom right before we jumped in and I’m praying. I’m like just clear my mind, you know, clear my mind. Help me be present. And now I feel like my mind’s clear and I’m like, “Oh my gosh, what do I say? What do I talk about? Here we go. jumping in. But u there was a piece of my recovery journey that was so important. It it was it was it was uh it was my third course of treatment and uh it was right before I jumped in. I had been working at a nightclub as a as like a bouncer door watcher downtown Oklahoma was working at a nightclub as a like a bouncer washing off tables or whatever. And they came to me and they said, “Pice, we we see the work that you’re putting in. we want to make you the opener. And what came out of my mouth was, you can’t do that. I’m addicted. I’m addicted to heroin. And I don’t know what it was in that moment of just brutal honesty, but I had a decision to make. There was two forks in the road. There was a fork in the road that I could go on and keep living the life that I was living. I could go on to the end of that destiny, go find my dope dealer, get the next hit, disappoint my family again. But that’s okay because I’ve been living that way for so long. I know what to expect out of this path. Yeah. And then there’s the other way. And it’s like two steps into that path, you know, making that first phone call and then the rest of it shrouded in fog. There’s no visible line of sight of where I’m going to go. And I had to trust that. I had to trust that. And um you know, for anybody that’s like thinking about taking that step, that step, like I said, I didn’t know what I was about to get into, but because I took that step, I’m like sitting here in Colorado Springs with you. Yeah. You know, Yeah. It’s a crazy thing. I remember being at that inflection point too with my sponsor and being like, “But I don’t know what’s down that path.” And he’s like, “Yeah, and I can’t assure what it is, but what I can assure you is it won’t be that.” And that was so difficult for me and was causing so many problems in my life. I came to a point of willingness where I was like, “As long as you can promise it won’t be that, I’ll do handstands downtown naked. I don’t give a [ ] man. Let’s roll.” You know what I mean? Like we’re ready to go. Like you stay up, we jump. I don’t give, you know? we’re it’s on, you know, and that’s what it was for me. It was like because I didn’t believe I didn’t believe for a second people really stayed sober. Like the the idea and I’ve said it multiple times, but like I’ll go to AA with my mom and I thought it was a novel idea. It was so pimp. So they go in, you’re like, “Nobody drinks for an hour.” Well, I didn’t know that the other people didn’t drink for the rest of the day because then my mom would go get a six-pack, whatever. We like the thing. But I thought it was cool cuz she would show up sober and she would leave sober and that was the only time I saw her sober. So then like you get into this process and I’m like I it doesn’t work because my mom still had all these things and then I meet this subgroup of people hanging out in the unarian church that are like just kind of vibing, kicking it, doing their thing. And what was so cool to me was like seeing 25year-olds absolutely ascending in their lives. And that for me was like I was like a man in man I’ll follow those guys, you know. How old were you when you got sober? 22. 22. 22. I was a 23. Nice. I know. I always love 22 year olds that come in, man. I’m like, you me, we’re the same, you know? But it’s a good it’s a good age, but it’s a really tough age to get sober because what what you’re really asking a 22-year-old or a 23-year-old is to cash in their 20s in the way that they may have imagined it or the way that is synonymous with our culture. And that is so difficult about putting down that coping mechanism um throughout that really crucial developmental stage of life. Yeah. I think I think when you get to that point though, when you’re miserable enough, you’re willing to do whatever it takes to get out of it. And as as somebody that has experienced getting sober at 23, it really wasn’t like I mean, gosh dang. When you get down to that point where you’re just like so miserable about like everything you’re doing like you’ve like tarnished like your life. I’m just sitting in the basement of my father’s house playing video games for 26 hours a day, you know? There’s like no point in my life that isn’t surrounded with that stuff. Mhm. And um and I think when like one thing that you’re really good at is coming at at at recovery in this way that’s exciting. Like you want to like you pump people up. You get people excited about doing this. Like your life looks good. Yeah. You look like you have something that is worth it uh striving for and and going for and obtaining. And I think that’s that attraction rather than promotion. Yeah. Like we’re not trying to push it like we don’t want to push recovery down your throat. I’m going to pivot a little bit. Yeah. cuz something that that has been in my recovery journey lately is learning that everybody’s recovery journey looks a little bit different. Mhm. It’s a tough lesson. It’s a really tough lesson and it actually is like it’s born from some pain in my own life, you know. Um, but when I first got sober, I entered into a 12step program. And that like I think whatever helps you find life, whatever helps you come back to this, maybe not even come back to is the right way to say that. Find this new person that’s that is you. And you just want to jump up and scream at the top of your lungs. You just want to get out there and get excited about it and tell people this is the way to do it. This is how you want to do it. Yeah. M but what if your way isn’t the way that is for everybody else? Right. Right. Well, you’re talking about the you know oneizefits-all mentality and that’s the way we really used to approach it and like you I would put that AA flag. I mean you can imagine me on 12step mountain. I was on 12step mountain for six years straight meeting every single day. I was ask secretary of the largest meeting in Arizona. Like I was the dude. And if you told me for a second like you don’t do AA I’d be like what step did you not do? Talk to me about it. And I would just ra But that’s what I was talking about last night. People sit in front of me like this. [ ] man. Okay, man. I’ll do the steps. Jeez. But now it’s like, well, dude, have you have you gone for a walk lately? You know, um, you want to go for a walk with me? You know, and I really, to your point, I want to emulate what is possible, like an openness and a broadness to my approach so that the individuals sitting across from me can see themselves inside their own recovery. And I used to say, I want individuals to see themselves inside my story. Now I say, I want individuals to see themselves in their own story, in their own recovery. It’s personalized, fits like a glove, you know? So, I’m I’m with you on that, man. And that was really tough for me when we opened Peaks Recovery cuz I mean, I’m telling you, dude, everybody at Peaks Recovery for 6 months went to three meetings a day. I mean, you talk 21 meetings a week, working steps, getting service positions, doing the thing, 20 applications, all this stuff. Uh, and then I went and went to the Meadows cuz my life was on the outside was really, really good, but on the inside it was the worst it had ever been. And I went and learned about some authentic healing. And you’re sober. I’m sober. But that’s just a piece of it. Yeah. That’s just a piece. That’s just a piece. That’s right. That’s just a piece. I think it’s it’s a big piece to the foundation to start. Mhm. But it’s a small piece in regards to happiness. Yeah. You know, I think some people look at like, well, sobriety is going to inform mental health. And I think sometimes that’s what people get hung up when in 12step is like, I’m going to be mentally healthy because I just do this. I think it’s like a cold plunge really, man. And I think it’s like ancillary to a primary project and you have a lot of options and we got the cold and we got the sauna and we got the 12step and we got the jiu-jitsu gym and we got the mountain climbing club and we got the dharma recovery and we got the salt caves and we got the meditation. We got the Buddhist temple, we got the church, we got the prayer, we got the meditation, we put God in the room, we it’s beautiful. And when you start speaking like that to people, regardless of my belief and I’m authentic with it, I found that people will just like, “Dude, that sounds ripping, dude. I’ll go check out some Buddhist Dharma thing. Never done it before. Got cowboys sitting in Dharma. They’re like, “Fuck, this is cool.” You know, you get excited about it. It’s cool, man. This is like the things that brought you back to life, right? It’s going back to what I was saying a little bit. I kind of remember my train of thought. Um, it’s interesting sitting in a podcast like and like naturally when you’re having conversations with somebody, there’s not like cameras getting pointed directly at your face. Dude, I can’t tell you how many times in this podcast, like live where I’ve been like, especially when I first started, first three years, you’d be talking And I’d be like, like what are we talking about? Gone. Because I’m so nervous. I’m just trying to be like, okay, question three, question four, question five. And I’m like, I’d be sitting there, dude. Like a real good conversation apparently. And I’m just like, what is your name? You know, just boom. I’m like, I think God does that for me, man. He’s like, here, man, try this out. Get better. I’m going to try this. Well, jumping back into what I was saying, and it actually came up at the winter symposium. The winter symposium was really cool. was like super authentic connections there, right? I had never been to the Winter Symposium. I’ve been hanging hanging around Denver and Colorado Springs quite a bit, so I met a lot of the folks in the area, but then getting seeing everybody together and the com and the kind of community effort that’s put forth and making sure that the right connections are in place. It’s my bread and butter. Love being a connector of people. That’s like my that’s like my genuine passion. I want to learn what you do and I want to learn what they do and I want to learn how we can do that together. And I think there’s a really there’s a really special moment in that when you can connect people. But man, back to what I was saying with the, you know, getting excited about your own recovery.
Everybody’s going to be on their own journey. Everybody’s going to have their own steps to take. And I think what I need to be careful of when I’m helping somebody is not taking those steps for them. Mhm. Because I really want to, right? Like and and then that inflection point when there was two paths to take and I took the one that was shrouded in fog. I needed it to be shrouded in fog. I didn’t need to be able to see down that path. I had to have faith and I had to walk down. Y I had to trust the people that were right in front of me saying, “Hey, there’s a good life on the other end.” But you’re not going to be able to get here unless you take those steps yourself. And so when you step into it and you find then you find life, you get really excited about it. You want to tell everybody about that thing and you want to help people walk along their journey. But that but you know the the with the more time that I’ve spent in recovery I’ve learned like hey people are going to be on their own journeys and what we really need to do is support that journey. Of course when somebody first gets sober like their ideas are going to be nuts and you probably need to do some tailoring to those ideas. You know like I don’t need to go hang out with some old friends back in the old hood I used to hang out with. I don’t need to go burning and gunning like that. I need somebody to say hey Pierce that’s not a good idea. How about you come to a meeting with us? How about you pivot that idea? I know it sucks to pivot that idea. I know it sucks to maybe say goodbye to that, but how about you come over here and you help and and you come through. But often times what I see in our recovery community is that people will get here. They’ll find this life. They’ll get really excited about it and they won’t transition out of that phase of like what I needed in the beginning maybe not what I maybe isn’t what I need now. I need to find some new way of Mhm. So when I when I think about the 12 steps, I think about the purpose that they’ve fulfilled in my life. Well, when I’m get first getting sober, like I don’t have any principles. I don’t I don’t live my life by principles. I lie. I cheat. I steal. I cheat. I um I I go out of my way to make sure that I need that I get what I need. And if there’s somebody in the way, I’m going to make sure that that that person is removed from my path so I can go at any means necessary. And often what’s that what that looks like is hurting people. like I hurt a lot of people. And so what the 12 steps did for me, broken down real easy, is they just gave me a guide of life. Behind each of the 12 steps is a principle. Principles like honesty, perseverance, faith, courage, um integrity, uh service. These are things that I don’t know and I need a program like a structured program around me to teach me those principles. How do I put that into action? Right? How do I get courageous enough to tell somebody that of all the secrets that I hold in my heart? How do I get courageous enough to do that? Well, there’s four more steps before that to get you to that place, right? There’s four more steps you can take before it’s time to share all your secrets, right? And I needed that. I needed that structure. And I still need that, right? But as my recovery grows, as my network grows, as my people around me grow, as the like like we were mentioning, those titans that are around me, those those living titans, those pillars in that are in my life. Um, how do I continue to grow that? And part of that journey has been learning how to approach people in a way that makes recovery look fun. And I’m not forcing it down their throat, right? I’m meeting them where they’re at. And we get to connect on a very like we get to connect on a human level. Mhm. And um yeah, that’s a that’s a that’s a part of the journey that I’ve been on lately and it’s been a lot of fun. Yeah. Trying to find that little piece. I love what you said, too, cuz it’s like, you know, when I got into 12step in my first year, I hope in my fifth year, I’m not fighting the same things I was in my first year. It’s a completely different box of box of goods and you got to treat it that way. And different seasons require different reasons. you know, TJ, we got to hang out with TJ last night, and I really love he’s he was an old 12step. He did 12step for 10, 15 years, and now he’s on he’s developed his own uh conscious recovery. It’s actually really cool. I think it’s great. And um he goes on to talk a lot about like great clinicians, like great helpers in this world, um are the people that just show up whole and perfect. And and that’s a lot of the essence of his conscious recovery is that everybody comes into this world whole and perfect and then the environment happens in these things. But it’s reminding you of that wholeness and perfection. And so he talks about like really great therapists coming into the room and just holding a space of wholeness and perfection. like like I come in and and I sit with you in a way that that without saying a word shows you emulates to you and you receive energetically how valuable you are because I know how valuable I am as a human, right? And he talks a lot about that and he talks about what it what it disconnects is oftentimes polarity and trying to help people meaning like I have the solution, you have the problem, follow me. It creates a bit of a disconnect. Whereas I think people in longerterm recovery, even big 12 steppers, they have a a a a a maturation to them where they can exist in a lot of different spaces, but still in that 12step way of life, you know, in service to others. Um picking up my trash, not littering, pushing my cart in. These very simple things, making amends whenever necessary. Um journaling a daily, you know, tent step. These are things that I’ve done nearly five days a week since I left the program almost 10 years ago. Like they’re just ingrained in my life. And those are the components that I be continue to share with others. It’s like community, service, integrity, perseverance, honesty, courage. These are dope ass things. And what I love about AA is it’s a bunch of competitive people in there, of course. And there’s no finish line. You know what I mean? Like you have so much integrity. Like you won, right? you you do so much service that you just serviced yourself. Yeah. So like you’re so honest like you’ve you know you’re right there and that’s what kept me coming back for more which is really cool. Yeah. I think I and I too need to be very careful in what I’m what I’m saying because I know today what I what the words that come out of my mouth can are um you know as somebody that’s stepped into into this journey what the words that I come that are coming out of my mouth can be very dangerous to the newcomer potentially if I’m misrepresenting something man that can be very dangerous to the newcomer if I say man you don’t have to go to the meeting right every day right I don’t go to a meeting every day but you and so That means me must mean you don’t have to go to a meeting every day. And my my strongest words of encouragement are when you first get sober, you need to do every single possible thing you can do to get yourself involved in every single way. Mhm. I don’t think there’s a time limit on when you can start to be of service. Mhm. In fact, I know there ain’t no time limit on when you can be of service. Yeah. You know, it would be like a time limit on feeling good. You know, that would be a time limit on feeling good. Yeah, you’re you on a time limit on feeling good. I’m trying to help you feel better, you know. Actually, it’s it’s taking out the trash at my clubhouse. Something about it, man. That was like the thing that connected me to the people in that group. Yeah. You know, service changes over time. Yeah. You’re the ticket guy, you’re this butt guy or you’re the coffee guy. Like I was the coffee guy. Yeah. You know, if you’re making coffee, man, you’re the dude. You get to know everybody. You just know everybody. That’s cool. So, jumping in. Jumping straight in. How old were you when you had your first kid? I was 19. 19. That’s cool. Mhm. All right. How So your oldest is seven. My oldest is eight. Eight. Okay. Boy. Yep. Okay. And you have four kids? I have three. Three. Three boys. Let’s go, dude. I was raised like an 8-year-old, a 5-year-old, and a 2-year-old. Okay. They’re a whole lot of fun, man. Yeah. And my first one was born in my addiction. Really? Yeah. My second one is the only My second one I was 6 months sober when he was born. Mhm. So, conceived during my addiction, but I got sober. And that was a really interesting thing to have to try and navigate. Like, how do I live in sober living, but also be a dad? Oh my gosh, man. That’s, you know, I had all this I was talking last night about it to somebody and I was like, man, I used to do when I went to treatment, I’m like, you know, my mom, she was worse. Yeah, I did heroin with her and she did drugs and all this. And then I only come to realize like everybody’s doing the best they can, man. you know, and and she had me at like 19, 20, you know, so like she kept me alive. I feel like that’s a really big deal at 19 or 20. Like me at 19 or 20, like I don’t turn the bathtub off. Like I’m not in a good place. And so shout out to you for being here with all your kids, man. Oh, buddy. It’s, you know, and very quickly after that, quickly after that, you were you found your your recovery pretty. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, I did like a little foxhole prayer. Okay. with my first um before my first son was before we ever found out he was pregnant. I’m going to dig a little deeper. This is this is that piece of the honesty in this in this in this show that I want to get out there, you know, cuz I think it’s I think it’s I think it’s there’s something really genuine about being open and honest about things. So I found out um I had I I was living with my mom for a while for most of my life. And uh she she just couldn’t handle me anymore. And so she sent me over to my dad’s house. My dad is a flight attendant. And my dad has a quite a nice home. I mean, he’s pretty big. Yeah. And uh but he’s gone 5 days a week. And what does a what does an 18-year-old do with a father that’s not in his nice home for 5 days a week? I’m throw some rager parties. Yeah, there’s some raers and um I was at it was one of my parties that I just separated myself from the group. It was all it was all kind of crashing down around me like that that lifestyle wasn’t it’s not sustainable, man. It’s not sustainable. It doesn’t after a while it doesn’t feel good anymore. It’s not fun. After a while, you’re doing it just because like well I really don’t have any control over why I’m doing it. I don’t even know why I’m doing it for the most part. I don’t I don’t like most of these people in my home, but I’m doing it anyway. And um and my girlfriend and she comes home and I’m like tripping acid, you know, with all these people in the house and she’s like, “Pice, I need to talk to you.” Two weeks before that, I had a foxhole prayer. I had stepped away from one of the parties and I prayed, “God, send me something. Send me something to get me out of this life.” And so two week about two weeks later, she came to me. She’s like, “Pierce, I need to have a conversation with you. I just found out I’m pregnant.” And so, you can imagine 18-year-old Pierce like tripping. Yeah. Just this whole house full of people. I don’t know what I’m going to do, but in the moment, I just knew I was an answer. That was an answered prayer. Mhm. The worst of my addiction was yet to come. Unfortunately, you know, he’s eight and I’m 5 years sober. The worst of my addiction was yet to come, but it started it was the kind of like the catalyst that pushed me into into it. And so being a dad, being a young dad has its difficulties, right? Like there’s a lot of pieces. There’s a lot of things that I would change if I could. Like um like being a single dad is difficult. I don’t get to I don’t get to live in I don’t get to live in a home with my boys. I get to spend time with them and they come and stay with me, but I don’t get to be there dayto day. And that’s hard. Yeah. That’s been difficult. Um, and when I when my second son was born, I was in sober living. That’s not ideal. That’s not where I saw myself. Um, and then then, you know, my third son is born and like I said, they don’t, you know, I’m a single dad and that has its troubles that it’s struggles, but I’ve surrounded myself with men that are on in the same vein, on the same journey with me. And um and what I’ve what I’ve learned is all this stuff is happening for a reason. All these things, all these pieces, all these gifts. Mhm. I have these gifts in my life for a reason. Um exactly what the reason is yet, I don’t know. But I I think I think I know. As you’re sitting here talking, I’m just thinking to myself like I think our kids actually need to see need to see our humanity, man. I think they need to see that humans struggle. I think they need to see dad, including myself, do things that they know are unhealthy and that I’ve labeled as unhealthy. And they need to continue to see me to do them. And then they need to see me stop. And I think that’s the profound spot I think that we miss in all of it is like I carry shame or guilt because X, Y, and Z. But really the the bread and butter on the backside is like and we have the ability to stop these negative behaviors, improve our lives and create light for others. And I think that’s more profound than not having gone through it at all. Quite frankly, I I look at, you know, my dad drank his entire life, never drew a sober breath. You know, had had he at 20 gone to treatment, I mean, we’ve been through a lot, man. My dad was tough on me. I would have been like, “That’s my [ ] dad.” Talked about it all the time, man. And so, I don’t think there’s any mistakes, only lessons as long as we move forward and get better as a result. And and that’s that’s what I want to teach my kids. There’s no perfect slice of pie in this world. Daddy is not perfect. Like, I’m imperfect. I make mistakes. Sometimes I don’t talk to your mom the way I should. Sometimes I don’t show up with you guys the way I should. But I want you to know that I can own when I’m wrong and I can get better. It’s called an amends. And that’s what AA taught me. And not just to show up to make amends, to make amends, because I can make amends all the time to make amends. Now I’m a changed behavior, right? And I want you to call me on it. And now I have a relationship with my kids, too. Because even though I was sober when I had my kids, I was a disconnected father. I was struggling with mental health issues. I was soaked in this like money labyrinth that I thought was had a quality of life in it and it didn’t. And so I’m here to say that I’ve been able to correct a lot of that and do these certain things. And it’s unfortunate sometimes because with our kids, like I was telling you last night, it’s like they’re suffering from what I suffered from two years ago, I just have to be on the right path sustainably for a long time for them to move on with me. But I don’t get it twisted at all. Like our kids are generally speaking spitting images of us. So I think what you did is actually really really cool. I know a lot of people that are parents right now at the facility that really have a difficult time finding any. I also think that that the journey that um that I’m on as a father is uh cuz like cuz who I used to be and who I am today are completely different. Who I the father that I was a year ago versus the father that I am today is completely different. Right. We learn our lessons as being a dad. We move on. We we take those lessons we take those pieces that maybe wrapped in a little bit of shame. Mh. You know like I was saying like getting getting honest about that saying my kids don’t leave my home. Man, that comes with so much shame, dude. It comes with so much shame. I actually got sweaty sitting here and I was like, I don’t know if I should have shared that. But it’s important to share that thing because I’m not the only person going through that. There’s other there’s other young men out there that are in the same position I am. And then so, you know, taking a couple steps into the journey of being a single dad. What does it look like? Well, it looks like spending very intentional time with your kiddos. Yeah. It looks like making some sacrifices and not always doing what you want to do. Mhm. because it’s really easy for me to do what I want to do, right? Because of course it’s what I want to do. But what about when I sacrifice that time and I go spend it with my kiddos and I go we go do some kind of fun adventure or I teach sit down and I teach them the lessons that I’ve learned in a very like like very like like fundamental Yeah. way, but I get to take the experiences that I that I’ve had through life through with that with them having them walking their journey with them. I get to share that with them and like I think all together build this beautiful bond that we have as a son and father and uh grow together. Um I’m going to pivot pivot just a little bit cuz when going back to like stepping into sobriety I never thought things like this would be possible today. Right. And something that I shared with you recently was music. Yeah, bro. Shared some music. Get out of here with that [ ] man. Tell the people. Yeah. Tell the people about the music, dude. Dude, here’s the cool part about Here’s the cool part about stepping into that fog. Things are going to happen in your life that you weren’t expecting. When did you start playing music? Beautiful things, man. I I started playing I started playing the drums before I could write my last name. So, just [ ] And I remember Yeah, I remember that. That’s cool. I got So, I got my first drum set like a really childish drum set when I was uh for Christmas one year. I had to have been no no older than 5 years old. Okay. And my uh mom and dad, they put me in guitar lessons, which is funny. I had that drum set at home and I had a guitar at home. They thought I might be more interested in the guitar. So, they put me in the guitar lessons. And in that lesson, that very first lesson, he taught me how to spell my last name. He he told me I needed to clip my fingernails so I could play the guitar, right? And and taught me how to spell my last name. But the whole time through that lesson, all I could hear in the back was was the backbeat of some drums. Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom. I told him, I was like, “I want to know what that is.” And he’s like, “Okay, we’ll go check it out after this lesson.” He opened the door to those two drum sets. One was blue, one was white. And um there was my first drum teacher was sitting in there. His name was Bill. And Bill was dude, his double bass work just top notch heavy metal. He’s a heavy metal guy. Played in a heavy metal band. They were in a touring band. And when uh man, I locked eyes with him, locked eyes with those drum set, and that’s it. He tell that’s my passion. Like my true passion. I’ve been playing since I was probably six or seven. There’s been some off times in there, you know. Um there’s been some times where I stopped playing for a couple of years. I just kind of like lost the passion for it, right? But it never really left me. I think um and then so in playing drums, going through life, dude, uh one of the times that I put it down was through my addiction. Yeah. I put it down. It was the only thing that I didn’t sell. So, I sold everything but my drums. I told you all my friends that are musicians are drummers, man. I’ve had so many stories where my like I’m with my friend as they’re getting their drums back like for the first time and rec. Dude, epic. So cool. So cool. Yeah. But I’ve growing up I either wanted to be a rock star, a Power Ranger, or an Imagineer for Disney. It’d be so cool to be a rockstar, dude. So, I you hear me talk about you. I’m like, dude. Yeah. Yeah. It’s so cool. Turns out I’m not going to be a Power Ranger. Yeah. Probably not. Not this year. Not not gonna put the work in. I want not gonna put put the work in for to be an Imagineer for Disney. Yeah. But I’m on this like little journey of being a rock star. Yeah. So, the Daniel Card Band. Mhm. How did you say you were going to tell me how did that come to be? And they are groovy, you guys. I’m telling you right now. And I’m not I’m pessimistic at best with your playlist. And so, like like I man but like you you sent that through and I’m like and you caught me at the perfect time when I’m in the sauna. I like to listen to books and I like to read inspiring [ ] and I like to listen to new music. And you hit it and I just hit it and I was like, so the Daniel Card Band, man, this this is great. They just released their album. It’s I every song’s good, but there’s like eight bangers. Tell us about it. There are a few bangers in there, man. So, uh, my u, our Dan, our lead singer, the our group kind of knew that Dan was looking to play with some guys. And so, he hooked up with our guitarist Brooks. And him and Brooks started to go play different shows around Oklahoma, just little small things, little like acoustic gigs. And then Brooks and I ran into each other at one point. He knew I played the drums. I knew he played the guitars. He’s like, “Why don’t you come and join the band?” So, we joined the band. The bass player got pulled into it. How long ago were you was that? That was probably 3 years ago. Oh wow. 3 years ago. So we all got linked together and our first practice was in the sober house garage and uh in the in the sober house that I was managing. That’s right. We didn’t have anywhere else to practice. So we practiced so that was and um and so we were all sitting there in that we we came up we coined our name from where we all got sober. Um, it’s the Daniel Card Band in the It’s the Daniel Card in the class of 39. And if you know, you know. If you know, you know. If you know, you know. That’s cool. And so we were sitting there in that in our little first practice and Mickey was like, “You have two years sober. You have two years sober, you have one year sober, I have 35 years sober, we have 39 years of sobriety combined in this in this band right now.” And so it was just like this little Godwink of this little, you know, this little kiss from the universe saying, “Hey, you guys are you guys are supposed to be here.” And the class of 39 that the 39 and that name does not come from the amount of time that we had. So that we just found that out on off coincidence. That’s funny. And then we started uh we started playing some shows around town. Dan had recorded an album with the Turnpike Trouidors before we all those songs he had been riding with Kenny and stuff. They uh he recorded that stuff with with the Turnpike Trouidors and then that’s when after that album came out we all kind of linked together started playing shows slowly but surely writing all this writing all this music that’s on the the newest album and we we’ve been we’ve been playing that that music for a year. What it’s on the album? Mhm. Oh, cool. Oh, no. I’m sorry. About two years. Oh, wow. Two and a half years we’ve been playing that music that’s on the album now. And so we’ve taken all that stuff and um Dan put all the investments necessary to create a professional album and here we are. Yeah. Even the album cover I think is like like that couch is dope. Like it’s a yellow couch. The album name was supposed to be things that don’t belong really and so we took all this like crazy random crap brought it out through the forest. It’s cool. Set it up. Everybody’s got to listen to it, man. I’m fanboy, you know. We’re here for it. That’s freaking cool. And the story makes it even cooler. So, I’m just going to summarize what you said and then I’m going to I’m going to rep the album. Yeah, that’s dope, man. How long How long did it take to actually get in the studio and like the studio time take took like 3 weeks like front to back? Because you guys are really well verssed in the songs. We’re super well versed in the songs. Whereas if somebody’s writing new music and they’re going to produce it, I’m sure people that have like re tons of resources, they just write in the studio and [ __ ] get in there and just get get after it. Yeah, man. Yeah. That’s so cool, dude. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and and that music stuff, man, that plays a that plays a big part of like one of the things that I’m really passionate about is helping young people find that like there’s there’s going to be so much more to your recovery than what you think is going to happen. Whatever you think is going to happen, toss it. Throw it out. That’s not what’s gonna I mean like the if you were to write on a list what would your life was going to look like and you’re like third day of being in rehab for sure. Write out that list. Dude that dude just throw that list out the window. It’s not going to look like that. Yeah. You’re going to underell yourself. Super underell yourself. You’re like I will die a house manager. And you’re like wait what? Yeah. He said 10 bucks an hour. Please God. You know 10 bucks an hour. I’m just like, man, imagine you could just get it to 15. I know, man. It was different when I Things weren’t as expensive when I got sober, but you know, you could make minimum wage, which was 725 an hour back then, and you could basically split an apartment with somebody and that was it. Minimum wage and split an apartment. Mhm. I take that back, man. His mom was paying for a bunch of Yeah, that’s not possible. That’s not possible. So, I love that, man. you got the music and and maybe to your point, you know, you 5 10 years from now, it’s it’s like you’re doing this music thing and it’s in recovery and it’s it’s this nonprofit
when you have passion and purpose driven into it. Mhm. You know, passion and the purpose is is what is what’s been driving it. So, how big what’s the biggest show you guys have played? Like a couple hundred people. Yeah, we played a show of 250 people at a place called the Goddard Center. Okay. It was our first ticketed show. Really? and we have a lot of family and friends and you know some some people that we’ve reached in the community up to that point. Um we hadn’t even released the album yet. We packed out the Goddard Center 250 people. That’s talk about stepping into uncomfortability. Yeah. I’m telling you man, there’s something about like getting in front of growing up I was super shy. Really really shy. Like I’ve always been pretty shy. those that drum set has made has like has made getting on stage speaking to people talking to people something that like has been has become more natural because when you get on stage man we used to we we get on stage for like three four hours at a time and luckily I have that drum set in front of me right I’m not the lead singer that’s got the full you know I can hide behind my drum set but like being playing the drums and pursuing that passion and getting ourselves in front of people and then getting all the way up to that point where we played a ticketed show at Goddard in Ardmore, Oklahoma. That was kind of like this pivotal moment. Something really interesting happened to me there. Um
I I I consistently have it in my head that like once I reach this point, I’m going to fulfill like a certain level of happiness that I didn’t that like that I don’t have right now, but oh, once I get to that point, I’m going to lock it in. We played Goddard and and it was a lot of fun, but it was like what’s next? Yeah. But I think, you know, when you get to a point, it’s it’s always like that. I’ve talked about this book so many times, but I [ ] love it so much. It’s called Greatness, but this guy wrote it and he basically says, and he’s he’s a sports psychologist, and anyway, the the the the ethos of it is that greatness is defined as selfless exceptionalism. And it’s not what you have or what you’ve done, but it’s what can you do with your God-given ability to make the world around you a better place. Mhm. And that’s speaking of like people that are in the upper echelon of their field, the highest of the high, the 0.00001, the billionaires, the people with the pot of gold, all the things, the ascension, you turn on the TV, everybody’s trying to get there. Everybody wants more and they’re trying to get there. I remember I used to be there be like I’d make a huge paycheck more than, you know, and and then I’m like, I’m already spending the next one on a spreadsheet and then I’m spending the next one because I more more more. And so I think sometimes it comes down to like being connected, you know, and being where your feet are. And I that’s why I always talk about Echer Toll on the show because he he talks about suffering outside of the present moment. And that’s the only spot that suffering lives. If I can be at the Goddard place with the 250 people pres Yeah. Be where my feet are, you know, and as you go through the journey, as you are where your feet are, I think we’re able to have so much more joy and excitement. So, I was dropping off my burner doodle yesterday. This goes along with the story. You might not think it, but it’s [ ] good. I’ve done this twice. My burner doodle, he gets so excited, dude. And it used to make me really mad. It doesn’t make me mad anymore. Yeah, cuz I changed it. So, he gets so excited, bro. He gets so excited he he pals, right? I bring him to the facility all week. Last week, brought him to the facility every day. He ples. And I remember myself getting kind of mad. I was walking to the facility the other day. I was walking into the groom the other day. I’m like, he’s probably going to [ ] p. And I thought to myself, like, and I tell everybody when I walked in, I was like, “Can you imagine on a Tuesday, you get so excited as a human, you piss your pants?” I mean, what a [ ] Tuesday. Like, if you could do that once in your life through pure joy and excitement, you just leak yourself like because you can’t control it cuz you’re so excited. So, I’ve reframed that [ ] man. I’m just like, I love you, River. You’re going to pedal because you’re having a great day. you’re having the best and I’m going to come behind you. I’m going to wipe it up because I’m having a better day because I get to see you have a great day. And I told the person in the thing, I was like, “Can you imagine?” She looked at me. She’s like, “No shit.” Like if you pissed yourself on a Wednesday. What a great day. A great day. Simple. Yeah. A great day. You know, so I’ve been doing a lot of reframing lately because these issues and these problems in my life are it just about every single one of them are something that I’ve prayed wholeheartedly for. Yeah. Just bring it to me. Just bring it. And now God and the universe like, “Yeah, we’re here.” Just bring it. I just want to be with it. Yeah. You know, just bring it. And I should I should say, man, that Goddard thing, I’m going to pivot and reframe that a little bit cuz like the way that I described it a second ago of like reaching that place and then being like, okay, what’s next? I don’t think that’s a completely accurate representation of the way that I felt in that moment. The way that I felt in that moment was like one, I can’t I cannot believe that I’m here right now. I cannot believe that I’m playing in front of my family and my friends behind this drum set that I love so much. Mhm. A drum set that I love so much that I didn’t give that one thing away. That’s the only one thing I didn’t give away in my life. The drums are just part of my They’re just part of me. And I never thought getting to that place would even be possible. But here I am playing in front of all my friends nervous as hell, right? Like an hour in, you don’t just go into like a like a auto automatic mode. Not that show. No. But like normally like if you’re doing it, you’re just like, you’re not even thinking. 100%. Oh, I love that. It’s cool. 100%. It’s like flowing. You know how jiu-jitsu is like one of those things that’s like now built into your nervous system. Like the way you move, the way you like come like come up underneath people, wrap people up. That’s the way the drums are for. If I hear it in the other room, I’m like thinking of like all the different variants of that beat. How can we intertwine that with with the tune that I’m thinking of? That’s just the way, you know, when you play that long, when you practice as long as you’ve been, you know, that that stuff comes to be. But that show, no, I didn’t. I never got in. No. No, I never blow it. No, I couldn’t blow. It’s just song after song, song after song. I’m just so nervous sitting up there like and the drummers kind of got us started, too. It’s interesting about you being shy and being a drummer. One of my best friends, Kyle, he’s a ripping drummer. I was talking about him yesterday. He liked the drums cuz he was in the back. Just get me off of that and he could just be behind his thing and do his thing. Yeah. You know? Yeah. It’s been part of the journey. It’s like uh like if I’m if I consistently like to find things that I’m afraid to do. You’ll be humbled to know that I only look at the drummer. Like to just be clear. Yeah. Like I’m like look at that dude just raging like raging and I am like whole time. Well, it’s like you’re hiding. That’s like what you feel, right? Yeah. You feel that beat. Oh yeah. Coover is going to be like, “Hey, you tap tap the mic. Tap the mic.” Yeah. It’s that that kick drum, man. It’s just kick drums. That’s what you feel. Uh that’s what you feel. I’m really excited that you’re pushing back into a passion. You know, like throughout my journey over the last 18 years, you see a lot of artists that just can’t find the place to paint and do their art. And people along the way along their journey have told them things like, “Don’t do that. You ought to get a real job.” Or, “You ought to do this and stop doing that.” And so people get into recovery and they forget that they paint and they need to paint every day. It’s it’s my opinion that When you’re a painter, we got to touch that. When you’re a drummer, like we move into our passion every day, even if it’s just a touch. And it doesn’t mean I have to make money, but maybe I will someday and that’s okay. So, I’m just really big on the artist community, like building them up and like Yeah. because you talk about the guitarist and that these sad stories, man. And I I read into people’s memoirs and I’m so intrigued by people that play music and how they get there and uh and how they’re able to speak through their music and sometimes they’re not able to speak in any other kind of setting. It’s very interesting to me. It’s very complex. They’re very cool people. Very unique, very intricate, very thoughtful, you know, and I and I’m not and I want to be. And so I I think I a lot of artists. Well, you’re you’re an artist. Yeah. You’re an artist own way. You just paint differently. Yeah. You just paint different. Yeah. So I love that, man. Let me know when the next album’s coming out, but we got to get you out here at the Black Sheep. We got this dingy ass thing. It’s been around forever. I was telling Pierce about it. It’s feels like it’s like underground. There’s like one door. There’s no windows. But man, you can get close enough to the stage where you can like feel feel them like picking the strings. It’s so cool. You guys would I would make sure we sell that thing out. I feel like it’d be a lot of fun. We’re still working out our sound, you know? That’s like part of being like a like you can go into the studio and you can record this like perfect album or whatever, but you’re still going to be working on the sound. That’s true, man. Yeah. Like we have all this like perfect production going on and like the producer can add things in here and there. Yeah, but as a as a as a still like new like I consider us still a newly found band, we’re still trying to tweak that sound, but playing shows is the way we do it. I love it, man. And it’s got a jig to it, man. Makes you want to tap your foot. Yeah. Especially Good Luck, Godspeed. So good. Good luck. I’m gone. Maybe I’m gone. You know, man, I’m a fanboy. When I start Cass will come in the garage. She’d be like, “Do you have this song on repeat your whole workout?” I’m like, “Yeah, they only released two songs on the album.” Yeah. She’s like, “You’re [ ] bad.” just slammed the door. I’m like, “Yeah, get out of here. We’re running it.” You know, and I’m just over and over and over. Yeah. So, I know a lot of words to a lot of the songs, but we’ll get her down. Like, if I come see you, I’ll know all the words. I’ll be I’ll be out there. Come on. Come and you’ll know cuz I’ll be I’m telling you, I was dancing to it the other day and I’m the guy at the concert guy out there like literally like moving and grooving harder than anybody that’s got a [ ] 18 pack in them or anything, whatever. And so, like I go to your show and I’ve already danced to your jigs. I will create the biggest dance mosh pit. Like you will be like you’ll feel the vibration, bro. And I’ll just be like, you know, I’m that guy. Hypes me up. I’m that guy, dude. Like jumping like we’re jumping now about getting in tune. Yeah. So talk to me about like I’m going to ask you the question after we talk about this, but like the ascension and the move into like being a recovery professional, separating the two and and what has that been like for you throughout the journey? that has actually been you know with respect to your sobriety like quite a long journey. Working in the behavioral health field has been a a critical part of my journey. It’s it’s been um so uh got sober out at a place called Country Road Recovery Center. I don’t imagine there’s a lot of recovery places in Oklahoma. There’s not. Okay. But that was in Oklahoma. But Country Road Recovery Center was in Oklahoma. It’s 135 acre ranch out in Tecumpsa. It’s got to be extended care. It it was 90 days. Lovely. I love it. Yeah, it was 90 days. Um I I did two treatment episodes out there. So I you know after that third one I I fell in love with being in that space. I felt like I told my therapist one day he was like I was like dude I my happy place is in treatment. He was like you have a very expensive happy place. Yeah that’s going to be a tough one. You might as well choose four seasonough but it’s what it’s what was there you know that’s what I had. That’s what brought me back to life. I get it man. I get it so much. Especially as a young guy. I wanted to work as a tech. I really wanted to sit along. It’s like sit across the table and as I’m passing their meds be like, “Hey, how are you doing today? What are you going through?” Like, “What are you feeling? Talk to me.” If you’re mad, come and find me. I’ll sit with you. If you’re happy, if there’s something really cool going on in life, you just connect. You know, you just connected with the universe today. Everything made sense. You know what recovery feels like. You got it locked in. You’re going to be this way forever. Come find me. You know, let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about what it looks like to walk through your pains, your, you know, your times of depression where you don’t want to talk to anybody. Man, come find me. I want I want to serve the community in that way. I wanted to be a behavioral health tech because there was somebody that did that to me. The first amends I ever made was there was a tech out at Country Road. Um, this is around the time COVID was happening and he had a mask. He didn’t have a mask on and he said he was sick and I cussed him out. I was like, “How could you do this to us?” I didn’t think there was CO in Oklahoma. Everyone’s going to say, “No, do that.” There wasn’t hearing any spraying. No, I’m just kidding. No, I’m just kidding. But uh but he he just he he walked me through that, helped me see like, “Hey, you know, if you’re when you’re ready to come and talk to me about it, come and talk to me. We’ll talk it through. We’ll figure it out.” So, I slammed the door and I was out. But I came back to him and he taught me what making amends was. Mhm. It’s just those pivotal pieces of working with people in in you know people in treatment, working with those that are going through treatment. There was something about that connection that I just was drawn to. And so after um after I graduated the program about 8 months later or so, I was invited back to be um a behavioral health tech. Sweet. Yeah, it was a lot of fun. So I got to serve in that in that way for 4 months. I got to be part of that community. I got to be back where I got sober like pour into those people fresh and you’re really valuable at that level really cuz your alumni I mean dude and you just you know getting close to a year like they could miss my information but someone like you shows up and they’re like oh [ ] okay you know it sucks here sometimes right you know yeah and I also I’m back in my happy place or whatever yeah exactly why do you think why do you think people feel so good when they’re in a good treatment program.
Well, I can speak for myself. Yeah. Why do you think it felt so good? I felt like I finally found my people. I was treated with respect. Yeah. I was treated with love. I was treated with compassion. Yeah. Forgiveness. Yeah. They treated me as somebody that had integrity. When I had yet to ever figure out what integrity actually was. Um and they spoke to me. They spoke my language to me. They said, “Hey, Pierce, you’re not okay right now.” Right. But you’re going to be. Mhm. And it’s okay not to be okay. And they taught me that. Yeah. They taught me that. They spoke the language of the heart. Yeah. They taught me what that was like. It’s interesting because the same way that you the same reason you thrive in recovery today is because of the same reason you thrived in treatment. It’s the same thing. It’s the same thing. I I have to be seen, valued, heard in community. It’s just unfortunate that when I get to a place like Peaks Recovery or the place out in Oklahoma, I haven’t been seen, valued, heard, or anything outside of my family for years. Yeah. I have to have that in community. It feels good, dude, to know I’m valuable cuz I kind of threw myself away and I feel like you were trying to kind of throw me away. So, it’s a see value hurt and and now you’re in treatment and I remember going back for my third time to the same place. I’m like, I just here I had an inability to create community. I didn’t have the value. But then you get plugged into a you start doing it. But that’s what your life is today. Like everything you described is everything my life is today. I’m sure the same exact thing. I think that I think in treatment I just was like like met with love. I just was met with love. And it reminds us it’s possible. It’s possible 100%. It’s possible. And I think I was fed some good food. Got some good sleep. So good. So good. Dude, even me and Bobby back to the office, man. I’ve been to treatment. I mean, when I went to the Meadows, but it was it was intensive. I had my phone. I could leave and go get a steak if I wanted. Um, but yeah, it was a good treatment. But Bobby and I talk, you know, we we uh wax about it 18 20 years ago. This hike and this hike and that story. And it’s like, you know, cuz I didn’t go to traditional college. I felt I often ask people to go through college. I’m like, “What’s that like, man? What’s the time of your life?” Like, you move away from home, you get autonomy, dad gives you 200 bucks a week, you get some fast food, whatever. Like, what is that like? Because I was doing treatment and I was in sober living. we were doing that college, that university, which I would imagine is pretty similar like in a way, but I think people think it’s like so different, but it’s it’s really not. It’s developmental. It’s the same thing. It’s developmental. It’s community. It’s building. Yeah. But I four months into that gig, I was asked to be a part of the missions admissions department and admissions was a whole thing for me. I was terrified to answer the phone. I mean terrified to answer the phone. It was petrifying. Yeah. Like when I thought about that phone ringing and me have to answer that to a stranger. Mhm. I probably had my boss do 10 example calls just show me but just keep showing me keep showing me you know and uh but eventually I got into it and that I did that for a about a year about a year I was I was as an admissions coordinator and through that time I personally developed courage of just talking to people on the phone. I developed relationships with those folks. I got to see them at their worst day and I got to see them when they graduated. I got to see them on their best day. You’re on site. Mhm. Oh, that’s cool. And I got to be I got to be part of their journey. I got to I got to be the one that say, “Hey, it’s you’re not okay, but you’re going to be okay. And it’s okay not to be okay right now. You just trust me and grab my hand and I’ll walk you through the fog that you’re in right now. I got you. Reach out. It’s up to that person if they’re going to reach out or not. all I can do is make sure that I hold the space and that’s what I did as an admissions coordinator, I just held the space that made recovery possible. Mhm. And um and so after some time of being an admissions coordinator, I got asked to lead that department and then eventually as at um kind of graduating from that program in and the and uh I as the senior director of outreach. And so I moved from from behavioral health tech to admissions to outreach. And the outreach piece I was going out into the community, developing relationships and building out a network around Country Road. Yeah. We told you that on your, you know, 30th day of sobriety, you’re going to go network, build, forget about it. pipelines, connections, relationships with new people, build trust, talk about recovery, be au I mean, that’s like Yeah. And again, that’s the sauce. Again, it was this scary thing that I didn’t know how to do. Like when I like I like being a tech. I kind of knew how to be a tech because I watched people be a tech, but I was still afraid to be a tech. But we did it and we learned. And then admissions, I was petrified, but we did it and we learned. We built team. We built camaraderie. It was fun. And then moving into outreach, I was terrified. I remember my first outreach call. I had planned out this elaborate day of what I was going to go do. And I showed up at this like this therapist office that did ADS sack assessments or whatever. And she told me, she said, “I don’t know who you are. I don’t want any part of whatever you’re trying to sell me. Crushing. Yeah, but we do CBT. But we do CBT. Hold on. Have equin the good work. Yeah. This is Lady, this is my first day. It’s gender specific. Lady, this is my first day and you’re really slam. Yeah. And I call my boss. I was like, “Bos, this just happened to me. I’m going to go home.” He’s like, “No, don’t go home yet. Go to a couple more. You’ll be okay. I can’t believe that happened to you on your first try.” Like that that’s not the usual. Like that is so unusual for that to happen. But again, it just like this this like just stepping into the things that are uncomfortable and getting through it and showing myself that I can get through it. Cuz like back in the day, if something was uncomfortable, I’ll just, you know, I’ll just use I’ll just drink. I just wash it all away. I won’t do anything. I’ll just sit behind my video games and like forget life even exists. But today I’m like tra like I’m like really pushing myself. Like being a tech was hard, being admissions was hard. Like I’m pushing myself through these things and I have a good community around me that’s like pushing me and helping me navigate these like hard things in my life at the time. And now I look back and I’m like gosh I could I could answer an admissions phone call right now. I’m like be like smooth sailing. it be like it’d be like, you know, Mhm. it just be like something really fun to do. Mhm. And um and so like and that’s why I think working in treatment as somebody that’s in recovery has been so powerful in my life is because like not only am I like getting to serve the people that my people getting to serve my people. I’m also getting I’m also getting pushed I’m getting pushed to challenge myself in these different ways that I never knew possible. Which pushes me into my next journey. I was at um I was at a conference, the Rocky Mountain Symposium here in Aurora and I was by myself. I was supposed to have somebody come with me, but this was my first conference that I was completely by myself. And I’m like again, you know, stepping into the uncomfort. I just went in, I did it. We did a national conference together. But then I ran across the Sunwave guys. And the Sunwave guys, they made a really big impact on me. And one of the account executives, he pulled me aside. He said, “Do you like business development?” And I said, “Yeah.” Like I’m at that point I was getting kind of burnt. Yeah. At that point I was kind of getting burnt on like the message and everything. Um I think I think it just had a time shelf for me. But he’s like, you know, I think you’d be a really good account executive and um I let that seed kind of sink in. Mhm. And then a few months later, the opportunity came up. I don’t know if it was a few months. might have been a solid year later, but the opportunity came up to join Sunwave to be part of their team as an account executive. And again, that that miss that that thing just keeps repeating itself, right? I step into this account executive role and I’m like completely imposter syndrome. Like, how am I going to sell software? It’s a cool title, too. You know, account executive. Yeah, I was at my Yeah, I was called an account executive once. I thought it was really cool. today. I just call it So now you’re selling software. Yeah. Yeah. Now I’m selling software and uh I I try to like So the way that I see it is that when I was in direct care, I was helping I was directly helping the person that was being afflicted by addiction. directly helping them whether it be connecting them to services or like sitting knee to knee with that person and really walking them through their journey. Yeah. Walking the journey through together. And on the the software side of things, I get to sit with treatment centers that are doing good work, treatment centers that are helping their community. and I get to be kind of like a little bit on the sidelines and kind of just jump in and assist programs and
helping them increase their capacity to reach more people in their community. That’s a tr I mean when it comes to like on my on my LinkedIn I’m um kind of coined this dorky little name like software slinging cowboy, you know, I’m from from Oklahoma. I I don’t know if I consider myself a cowboy, but it’s fun. But I think your sum total impact through Sunwave and this business development opportunity is much larger. Much larger cuz like even our program, we’re not you’re not even a client, but we will be but like what what you’re going to do from an operational I talked about it last night from an operational excellence perspective. You know, I had 12 companies doing what Sunwave is about to do a year ago is just extraordinary an extraordinary lift. And from an operational perspective, it’s messy. It’s dirty. Uh from a billing perspective, from a client retention, from a alumni, from an AR, from all the things that go into it. And some people don’t think like, well, this is serving others. Well, we we serve people. You guys serve great companies. And you help us be more efficient, more dialed in so that we can serve more people. And it’s interesting, too, because the people that you all hang out with are doing good work. And for the most part, the people that I’ve met, you know, they’re they’re putting their best foot forward. And I think that says something not only about the Sunwave team, what they’ve created, but your existence was within that platform, which is really, really special. It’s just another lens to look through. That’s what drew me to the company in the first place. Mhm. Um, what drew me to Sunwave in the first place was the people that were working there. Yeah. They met with they met me with such authenticity. Mhm. And so, yeah, I’ve stepped into software sales, which I never really imagined myself in software sales. Like, I’d go to these conferences and I’d be like, that’s a software fella. We got no proof. We’re going to dodge that guy cuz we know I know what’s coming. I’m going to have to tell him no. I don’t really want to tell him no. Um that’s so funny. Sometimes I want to say things and I don’t and it’s good. Yeah, fair enough. You can’t say that. I can’t say that. Fair enough, dude. Fair enough. No, but the Sunway people, they’re looking great. They were they were really just their their impression on me was impressive. And so like as somebody that’s coming from direct care to software sales, um I feel that I bring this like different kind of like a I feel like I’m bringing a unique value to this. Like I want to create the community necessary around us to build not just the company, not just Sunwave. Dude, when we rise, I want everybody that we’re helping to rise with us. I want to create this type of community around us that builds into something that is worthy of reaching the people that we’re trying to help because it’s not siloed. What I do isn’t siloed. Yeah. What I do in my field isn’t doesn’t stop at just helping an organization like Peaks. Peaks helps people. Peaks helps the community of Colorado Springs. Peaks helps one of my good friend you know Peaks helped one of my good friends back in Oklahoma like the reach is extensive if you don’t take it seriously like that if you don’t like if we don’t sit with the people that we’re supporting in a way that’s like hey we want to make sure that you have what you need to be successful and you’re right dude I think right now I think right I think in the in our field we kind of got sucked into this well you need this tool and you need this tool and you need this tool you need a tool to track your admissions you need a tool to track your marketing. What about billing? Well, we need two tools there and we got to do AR and we got to do billing. Uh, we need to track all of our financial piece. So, now we need like a financial module or whatever. Um, of course, we need our EMR to track clinical documentation, but what about our AI now? Now, we need another piece for AI. Yeah, dude. And we just got sucked into this as an industry. We got sucked into this idea that I got and then they open companies like what would be synonymous? just can’t say their company name. But then they open companies that just literally link it all together. Dude, it’s another company. You know how But where they were so efficient in like just tying it all off for you, you know? It’s a It’s a while, man. But you know how to me the other day? Frankenstein still looks like a person. He sure does. But Frankenstein ain’t so do our cell phone towers, man. Which weren’t built for this type of They’re like, “Those things are leaning over.” Meanwhile, Eli must got satellites in the sky. These things are like, you know, they’re not going to be here very long. So, it’s all that stuff, man. And that’s what inspired me about you guys and inspired me about the relationship. And as I told you guys last night, I don’t think I ever said this, but you know, I didn’t want to go to the dinner. Uh, but the way that you met me at the door and what you said to me was profound and I was like, “Man, get over your shit.” And I was able to sit down and settle. And it wasn’t because I don’t like engaging with people and having conversation, I was just in a very, very intense time in business and things were really uncertain. And so, in those moments, I tend to like really go inward and try and control all the controllables. Um, but I was grateful that I got outside of my comfort zone out that night because it’s been an extraordinary connection ever since. So much fun. Yeah, it’s been so cool, man. You’re really making a a footprint here in Colorado. We want to get you introduced to more people and it’s not necessarily about, you know, getting Sunwave introduced to this program. It’s about getting great people together to see what can come of it. It’s about building bridges. Yeah, man. It’s about connecting people to people. Yeah. It’s that passion, dude. When you have when you have somebody that’s doing great work, like I said, I’ve already said this, but when you have somebody doing great work and they’re doing like phenomenal treatment and they’re reaching people where they’re at in the community, and then you have somebody else that’s offering a different type of service and you connect those two people, dude, you just built a bridge that so many people can cross. So many people can cross that bridge and so many relation, new relationships can be built off that. I mean, like with TJ, excuse me, with TJ, that connection is beginning to blossom. Like I met, you introduced me to him at the winter symposium. Now we’re connecting here at this like crazy cool workshop in Purple Mountain. Yeah. And him and Dustin have really hit it off, you know. That’s cool. Both from the Bay Area. What I love, you remember back Dustin remember cuz he’s probably my age about maybe younger. Um, so we used to do these things back in the day in elementary school where we would do these time capsules. Yeah. And we would write, right? Because you couldn’t just do a podcast and record it and like just pull it up later. So we do these time caps and we bury it in the ground and then like 20 years later you come and you open it up and you’re like Becky said she was going to marry Corey. It’s this crazy thing. Well, now we got Finding Peaks and we got a podcast. So, if I were to ask you and I want to encapsulate the show with this because maybe we’ll be able to bring it back up in a decade, but like if I were to say like with your understanding and awareness that people like us generally sell themselves short, especially we’re not present, but if I were to ask you what where you want to be in the next 10 years, not just as a but as a professional uh and a human like what would you what would be a beautiful setting? here to you.
Where do I want to be? Who do I think I’d want to be?
I want to be somebody that leads troops into battle. I want to be at the spirit. I want to pave the way for people who are saying, “I don’t know where to go. I don’t know what to do. I don’t know who I am.” I want to make sure that when somebody is reaching out for help, they have a clear pathway to that help. Mhm. Whether it be that person that’s struggling on the street, whether that be a newly found program in our community that’s trying to build legs underneath them, whether it be a fully established program in our country, may want to do better work. I want to be able to I want to be that person that paves the way as the spear tip into a brighter and a bigger and brighter future.
where the people that are asking for help, they have that help. Mhm. I think there’s probably a deeper answer in there somewhere.
But I love that answer. There’s another one. Here we go. There’s another one that I want to be. All my life has been like wicked chaotic, you know, like growing up. My parents got divorced fairly young, split home. Um, high school was I had like a 1.7 GPA, not because of a lack of intelligence, because of just a lack of give a [ ] Yeah. And um like and then straight into addiction right after high school and then recovery. That’s chaotic in its own self, you know? I think in 10 years I want to have my wife, my kiddos, a beautiful home. I want to be happy with what I have. Mhm. That’s being rocketed into the fourth dimension. Yeah. Right underneath where your feet are. I want to be somebody that can be present with my feet. Not worried about this. Not worried about the the status quo. Not wor Mhm. Just content. I love that, man. Just content. Cuz I guess if you can be where your feet are, you’ll know that you had it all along. It’s already there. And and I think that’s the cool thing and the profound thing for me about what you said initially was like don’t forget the moment to celebrate because what you want you have and you will continue to grow. But it’s right here, you know, and it’s a beautiful freaking thing. It’s right here right now. Yeah, man. Thanks for coming on my podcast, dude. Dude, thanks for having me. So nice connecting just shooting the [ ] I was coming over here like this going to be great. You know, I don’t interview a lot of people that like make me structure anything in any sort of way. Sometimes docs and stuff like can you put it on board, you know, but I love just connected, man. I love what you’re doing for the community. I love seeing you out here. I love seeing the Sunwave guys. Looking forward to a long-standing relationship and just one day at a time like big hearts, big smiles, full focus, feet on the ground. Grateful to know you, my friend. I’m grateful to know you, buddy. Thanks for letting me sit on my I’m glad my first podcast ever was with you. So that was great. Yeah, dude. First one. Cool, man. We try to keep it light in here, man. Yeah. Cool. It was a good time. Awesome, man. Well, from Oklahoma to you, peers, everybody, thanks for coming through. Until next time, please check us out. You know where to find us. Stay blessed, my beautiful people. Peace. See you.

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Episode 160The Power of Process: Elevating Care Through Operations with Tyler KeaWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/lvBego7BP2kListen NowDescriptionIn this episode of Finding Peaks, Chris sits with Peaks Recovery Centers’ Director of Operations, Tyler Kea, for a grounded and insightful conversation on what operational excellence truly means in the world of recovery. Tyler shares his journey from case management to leadership, offering a behind-the-scenes look at how structure, consistency, and intentional systems directly impact client care. Together, they explore the philosophy of “chop wood, carry water” and how mastering the fundamentals creates lasting change, both personally and professionally. The conversation also dives into Peaks’ evolving intake process, the role of personal experience in shaping leadership style, and why perspective is one of the most powerful tools in recovery and in life. Tyler opens up with a personal update and message, while Chris reflects on an experience that continues to shape his approach today.

Talking Points1. Introduction to the Show 2. What is operational excellence? 3. The importance of structure 4. From case management to operations director 5. Chop wood and carry water 6. PRC’s new intake process 7. Personal experience shaping professional approach 8. Tyler’s life update 9. A personal experience for Chris 10. Perspective is key 11. Tyler’s message 12. Final thoughts Quotes

“Clients coming into our care need structure. Maybe they are coming from an environment that doesn’t have much of that.”-Tyler Kea

Episode Transcripts

Episode -160- TranscriptsClients that are coming into our care need structure. Maybe they’re coming from an environment that doesn’t have much of that. The opposite of addiction is connection. Well, the opposite of disrupted and disconnected mental health is also connection, right? Like they won’t do the bad thing if we give them the good thing. I just I get to be there. I get to be present. I can’t solve everyone’s problems, right? That’s all their owns to figure out. But at least I can sit with you in it. Peaks is a special place. is different.
Hey everybody and welcome to another episode of Finding Peaks Recovery Centers. Your host. Grateful to be here today. Christopher Burns, president, founder, CEO, recovery cheerleader. I’m just on fire today. I’m really on fire about 2026. I’m on fire about raising the standard of care within Peak’s Recovery. Um the internal standards are are raising. The vibration is raising. I can feel it. I just came from the facility celebrating a lot of wins today. Um but one of the biggest wins right now is uh how we’re pursuing operational excellence. It’s something very near and dear to my heart and something that uh I struggle to connect, but Tyler’s been with us right around five or six years now. He’s now our director of operations. I have Tyler on the show today. Grateful to have you, sir. How you doing? Good, man. Thank you. Awesome, man. When I say operational excellence, um, what does that mean for you and what does that mean for Peaks Recovery? For me, it’s just plain and simple, structure. Mhm. It’s just structure. Um, all around. If I if I connect this to my own recovery journey, I need a structure to begin with, right? Clients that are coming into our care need structure. Maybe they’re coming from an environment that doesn’t have much of that. Mhm. Right. So, they come to us and they expect structure. So, if we create that operational excellence around our treatment center, that’s all it is is structure. And clients feel that. Yeah, I agree. It’s interesting what you say about clients feeling that we have um I think we’ve been producing excellent outcomes for years, but one of the things that I was always kind of sad to hear when I came down to the discharge table with these families that were so grateful um and these are families that had spent quite a bit of money with us and walked through the family program and been with us a considerable amount of time. something they would always harp on um is this was excellent care. I don’t know how you guys do what you do. Really awesome. Grateful to have my loved one back, but boy, you’re unorganized. Yeah. You know, and I and I admit that humbly and proudly. And so inserting you into that role is something that you’re very very passionate about through the structure of your recovery because it not only informs operational excellence, but like safety, right? And that’s an undertone kind of vibration for people that’s hard to quantify you know from an operational perspective. So grateful to have you in that role man. How has the transition been from case management? What have you brought from case management? That’s cuz case management is like connected with everything. Yeah. You know you get you get bird’s eye view into everything. How are you taking what you learned in case management integrating it into the operational side of things? Well, I was just speaking about this before we started here. Um, with case management, you know, we’re managing the clients, we’re managing the case load. You step into the operational role and now we’re managing staff. So, not that much of a difference, right? It’s just on a bigger playing field, more bird’s eye view. Um, as a case manager, yeah, you dip into every department because you’re connecting with the client, you’re connecting with the provider, the therapist, even outside organizations. So you get that bird’s eye view of how everything operates, right? Um, and for me it’s like, okay, maybe this can be tweaked, maybe this can be tweaked. I think this could flow a lot better. So stepping into this role, I get to actually implement it and play it out. Mhm. Yeah. It’s really cool when you could kind of like zoom out, right? It’s kind of like an org chart game, if you will, to make sure the right people are in the right decisions. And it’s interesting today because you know we often get stuck in a phrase I think in our industry and in business in general about you know a year ago we went through layoffs but I was talking more about optimization. I wasn’t necessarily talking about cutting the team, even though that was a little bit about what the story was in community, but it was it was really about client care and an emphasis on optimization and the integration thereof, right? When you have too many people in too many places, we can’t do the work necessary or the work in front of us and we can’t adhere to the job description. So, having you come in and really fit that well, right, um creates teams and systems that can do the job and perform at a high level. Yeah. Yeah. And then I mean we can always tie this back to recovery, right? Um you know for for myself coming out of treatment, go to AA meetings, do this, do that, meet with this person, go to this, go to that, right? So it’s throwing a bunch of things at you, right? When really we just need to stick to the foundation, right? Stick to the foundation which is therapy and working on myself, right? time for myself, meditation, setting up that morning structure and routines, things like that. Really the foundation. We don’t need all this extra things. It might look nice, it might feel nice, but I feel like that just operates on emotion. Yeah. Right. This doesn’t feel right, so let’s throw this at it. When really it’s just it’s foundation and structure. Yeah. You bring up something really cool in regards to leadership in in the way that we show up like consistently. Yeah. And that is something that early recovery really teaches you is is is to do the same thing over and over and over and over and over and then do it over and over and over and then when you’re done with that do it over and over and over, right? We’re very very good at that. Yeah. It’s like indoctrinated and ingrained into the foundation of our being. Yeah. You know, so coming into that role and some of the best operators I know, man, are in long-term recovery. They just see it clearly. There’s this uh phrase, I’m not even going to try and say who, maybe it’s a Buddhist phrase. I’ve said it on the show before. You’ve probably heard it, but it’s it essentially says when things are good, we chop wood and carry water. When things are bad, we chop wood and we carry water, right? We don’t we don’t stop. And that’s something that’s been really really cool for me in this season. And I’ve never been able to connect with that in any other season personally or professionally. What I used to do is I’d chop wood, carry water, and when things got good, I let someone else chop wood and carry water. Yep. But today, it’s this very cool thing in our director room and in our teams where we have people showing up one day at a time, chopping wood and carrying water. And even when things get good, we just chop wood and carry water. And then when they’re bad, we just chop wood and we carry water. And that’s the consistency that we’re talking about. Um, and that’s something that’s really been highlighted in this season for me, the benefit of that relentless approach to not just passion and purpose, but client care, dude. Yeah. You know, Yeah. And I mean, the way I’m approaching this is the main objective is the clients feel it. Mhm. Starting as a BHT, right? starting as a then a moving on to a case manager, you get the reports from the clients, right? Different reports than as a director now that I get from clients. When you’re on the ground level, you hear, you know, kind of the truth from the clients. And you know, and it it seemed it seemed all over the place if I’m just being honest. Yeah. Um we would ask the same question to six different people, get six different answers, and that’s fine. It’s it’s not a reflection on the staff that we have. It’s just a reflection on the system, right? Um and so just making something solid and structured in the time of good time, the time of bad time. This is what we do and this is what we do always. It’s not proactive. Yeah. You know. Yep. Yeah. That’s a really really good thing. It’s um we’ve been so reactive in the past, right? You know, and and that decreases safety. Yep. Um it decreases connection. And and it’s really important, too, is I say it all the time on the show. It’s just like I just want to keep bringing it up because I don’t hear people talk about it enough, but like people are making the most courageous decision of their lives. They’re trusting strangers with their care, right? They’re walking in to live with you, right? Like that’s got to be a magical moment that matters. It really does, dude. We better know what we’re doing. Mhm. Yeah. you shared something really cool before the show and it’s like it’s I I talked about the small victory that we that we had but you maybe you talk about it like you you had the opportunity to sit with the guests you’ve been to seven or eight programs probably all substance abuse treatment centers you Yeah. Yeah. So what we did with our intake process, right, uh the initial intake, client walks in, we greet the guest. Um what we did was remove all the administrative task in that that first hour that the client is on the property, right? And we really just connect and we ground. Often times we see the guests coming in with their family. So we get to connect that way, right? Because not only is it scary for the guests, it’s also scary for the family, right? They’re handing over their loved one to us in our care. Mhm. Right. So, if we can just sit down in that our new intake room, nice. Got some water fountains going on. There you go. Um, it calms them, right? It’s not here, sign this, sign that. Here’s a policy for this. Here’s a policy for that. Right? And so, this guest that we’re talking about just kind of explained, hey, I’ve been to seven or eight treatment programs and this is the smoothest intake process I’ve been a part of. I think he also mentioned, I feel like you guys really know what you’re doing and it’s just that connection piece, right? And that’s where operations can step in, right? How do we make this go a lot smoother? Yeah. Not only for the staff, but for the client. And when we pull back and we see the whole system laid out, we see the client’s journey. Yeah. Right. We see any bottlenecks, we see any hiccups, any friction. Client will usually get stuck here. Why don’t we take out all the intake forms and move it later? Right. Right. We just hit the essentials right now and the client feels that and now we got proof of that. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a huge deal and it feels so simple, but it’s like, you know, like let’s fix the light in here, right? Let’s have a little water thing, man. Let’s get some distilled water in the corner. Let’s do simple [ ] Let’s not have a computer, not a desk. Let’s not block the energy. Let’s sit on the couch. Let’s be a real human. Let’s get an iPad. Let them know, “Yeah, I got some [ ] here. We got to sign it.” But like otherwise, like this is is your show, right? Sure. Sean, I’m here for you, right? I’m going to serve you, right, man? That would be a diabolically different experience than I had when I walked into treatment. And the program I went to, I thought was really great. You know, it’s just those small things, man. Integrate humans in a deep way. And if we go back to like 2018, I think it was 2018 when Simon Synynic came out with the opposite of addiction is connection. Well, the opposite of disrupted and disconnected mental health is also connection, right? like they won’t do the bad thing if we give them the good thing, right? We got to work hard to show them that it’s still a good and valuable thing in their life, right? Because prior to coming into care, and most providers know this, but they’ve been disconnected, isolated, and at times felt like they’ve been thrown away. Yeah. So, we have this very novel experience and opportunity to cultivate something real special. Right. And then, I don’t know about you, but for me, then I get to spend the best 30 days of someone’s life with them. Yeah. you know, and it’s rocking. Yeah, we’re doing it. So, yeah. And I I think it’s a plus, you know, myself, even yourself, you know, coming from this background, right? Like we get it. We’ve been through that journey. And like speaking for myself, it like when I was using it was mostly like nobody wants to hear me, nobody cares about me, what do I have to say? You know, you’re thrown to the gutter. Yeah. Maybe not like literally, but that’s sure feels that way. Feels like it, right? So, for a guest to enter onto our property and the first thing we do is just sit down and connect with you. Mhm. Like that’s a game changer. Like this this place is different. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. When you said that, I’m I was almost thinking in my head like, what can we do like one more additional thing to make it even better? You know, what if it was like admissions? I love that we’re solving this problem on the podcast. Um, what if it was like admissions on the front end, you know, what’s your favorite coffee? What’s your favorite tea? What’s your favorite snack and like with the journal? Like you got your fig newtons or whatever. You know, I mean, just like small thing. Hey, admissions told me that you like cake donuts and so I had the team go out. They grab some donuts for everybody anyway. Yeah. I got you a blueberry cake donut. So, here’s a cake donut. Here’s the process. It’s like something small that like matters to the individual, right? Y I think it’d be pretty cool. Yeah. And then they’re like, “Holy [ __ ] dude. I had my favorite thing and I’m and I’m potentially going through one of the worst experiences of my life.” That’s that’s comforting. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have I had clients like, let’s use Bob, for example, as a name, you know? Hey, what’s up, Bob? How you doing? You know my name? Yeah, I know your name, man. You know, so like just that little piece of knowing someone’s name that you never met before. He never met me, right? But the way that made Bob feel Yeah. Right. special. So, yeah. I mean, if it’s we have their favorite drink or we have their favorite snack on hand like that, I mean, that takes it to another level. Mhm. That’s what we get to do in an intimate setting. Yeah. I uh I don’t envy having 200 beds um and not remembering people’s names. And I I think it’s um maybe it’s valuable to us, should be valuable to other providers. Um but somewhere along the way it’s it’s lost a little bit of value and that makes me really sad. Yeah. Like we don’t know our guest. We have too many people in care that I I’m sorry but I can’t remember your name. Right. I just feel like a number the same way they felt before coming into treatment. Mhm. Right. So, if we’re trying to disrupt that and change that, then we can’t represent what they’ve been feeling outside of our doors. It has to be a different feeling as soon as they walk in. Yeah. Yeah. And boy, what a what a simple yet really beneficial tool. Connection, kindness, and compassion are. Yeah. They’re so simple. And actually, they might be better than any like therapeutic tool. You’re going to actually learn within your graduate program because when you anchor people in a space, they get present. When people get present, they get purposeful. When people get pres purposeful, they get hope, right? When people like us get hope, people like the people down on our campus get hope. You better watch out, man. Yeah. Knock down. The world on fire. Yeah. You know, so it’s beautiful stuff, man. How’s it been for your family? You know, you’re in recovery. You You’re married now or you’re engaged? Engaged. You’re engaged. Yeah. He never asked you if she said yes. She said yes. Yeah. Well, obviously after thinking it was a joke for maybe the first 10 minutes. Oh my gosh. You’re like, “No, no, no. It was real. Cut.” Yeah. Yeah. That’s cool, man. What has it been like as a you know, a a man, a provider, a father, a human in recovery? You know, you start out just trying to like sketch this thing and you know, before you know it and with a lot of hard work, you’re in a position that may maybe you didn’t think you’d be or maybe you thought you’d be or maybe you’re happy you’d be, but what has it been like for the family? Like you have a daughter and a wife and brother and people back in Hawaii. Yeah. I mean, for the for them, I feel like I’m I give them somebody to look up to now. Right. Which is which has not been a thing for a long time. Mhm. Right. I would say I was probably the one that you don’t want to be like you see him don’t do that. Yeah. Right. So now like that whole narrative has switched. Right. Um I just I get to be there. I get to be present. I can’t solve everyone’s problems, right? That’s all their owns to figure out. But at least I can sit with you in it, right? I can pick you up. We can go to lunch. We can go to dinner. Um, and that’s that’s the biggest piece for me is that I can just I can be there and provide the support. Yeah. And it’s consistent. Yeah. And Yeah. It just it just goes back to the structure thing, right? like as a as a provider like I’ve I’ve always felt like it needed to be financial. Mhm. Right. This is what my dad did for me and my brothers, right? The provider you provide financially. Mhm. But it’s it’s a lot more than that. Yeah. Right. It’s providing stability, right? Providing presence, providing that when I show up or when I come home from practice, I know dad is going to be home. Mhm. I know dad is going to be outside of the door at that gym every time I finish practice. Mhm. Right. So, it’s stability. And I mean, it’s five, six years ago, man. I I I could not imagine this right now. Mhm. Not even close. It was It wasn’t even It wasn’t even a dream. Yeah. You couldn’t You couldn’t have dreamt it. Not at all. Yeah. It’s a cool thing, man. stay long enough in this thing, you show up and you chop wood and carry water one day at a time. Yeah. Life will just just blow you away, right? Wildest dreams beyond it will blow you away. I did this thing one time. I moved from and maybe may have said this on the podcast coup um but I did this thing right because I’m like six years into the field about to get my undergraduate degree in counseling but then this opportunity to go do peaks opens up and I remember I bought cuz I had it like that I was buying stuff on Amazon and I bought these coffee filters. Have I ever told you this story? No. And I bought these coffee filters and it was cheaper to buy 24 of them but you only replace a coffee filter every month. So, I set the reminder and I place cough filter every month. But I’m packing it in a box out of my rental home. Okay. Leaving Prescat, Arizona. And I thought to myself, I wonder will uh I haven’t told this story in a while. Um I wonder where I’ll be when I put this last coffee filter in. Like I’m I’m a program director of this program. I’m running this program. Doing this thing. Finished up my degree. I’m moving. I’m making money. I’m doing the thing. I’m about to open a program. Yeah. all these things. And I thought to myself, well, I wonder what it’ll be. Yeah. And boy, I was in a the first piece of real estate I ever owned when I opened that box. And it was uh about 8 months later. Yeah. And I thought to myself, boy, boy, I’ll just let this universe take control because I will sell myself short every time, man. Right. I will sell myself short. And every day of this chopping wood and carrying water and serving the world thing, things just get a little bit better. Yeah. You know, as I draw nearer and dearer to the things that matter, which are the simple free things, right? I love what you said about money cuz I thought too was this money thing. Man, I got to share this on the podcast cuz like you don’t get the opportunity to sit in front of somebody who’s 82 years old very often who has a life experience and successful kids and serve the country in the military. Well, I met with them yesterday and I met with them last week and I’m just like feed me, bro. So, I asked him I was like, “Yo, well, cuz kids are real successful, man. They all got degrees and some are dating or married to like authors and actors.” I was like, “Bro, yeah.” I said, ‘Who’s your most successful kid? And he goes, right away, he goes, “The happiest or who has the most money?” And I was like, “Boy, 82 years later, he said it.” I said, “Oh, the one who is the happiest.” He said, “Yeah, he’s got this. He’s got that. He’s got this. He’s got that. He’s got this. He’s got that.” My other boy, they’re happy, man. They’re good. They have good lives. Yep. But he’s happiest. Yeah. Yeah. And I just thought that was really really profound. Um because I I I don’t think like I’m not calling for the absence of of monetary goods or anything like that. I think it’s a solid foundation. But we can learn a lot in the absence of those things, you know. Yeah. Right. So that we have real
presence for what’s on the other side. Real reverence. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean with the absence of it, you got to you got to find ways to be creative and connect without it, right? And like I mean I I have big ambitions, right? Like I I strive high and I shoot high. Mhm. But at the same time like I’m happy where we live right now. Yeah. Right. It’s a small place. It’s tight and it’s fine. If I move to a bigger spot, I might look back on this time and be like, “Man, I wish we could all just sit on the couch and be together.” Yeah. I miss how our rooms were so close together. Mhm. You know, so like in every moment like that, I’m sure there will be times where I can look back and be like, “Man, I miss that.” Even though when it was happening, it was like, “I can’t wait to get out of this.” Yeah. Tired of parking in this parking lot. Yeah, man. You know, so it’s interesting you say that, man. We have a pretty good size house and we’re always like the next one the next one can be half the size. Yeah. Like we all just hang out up here anyway. Yeah. We don’t we don’t need all that, right? It’s funny you say that too cuz I remember one time I picked your brother up to go to jiu-jitsu and I was talking with him like you like this area. He’s like, “Bro, this is so nice. Look at this pl bro. Look at this place.” You know, we’re like, “Man, I need to give me a new spot.” You It’s just like when you can zoom out, man, you get a different perspective. You’re like, “Oh, yeah. You’ve seen where I used to live, huh? Yep. Yep. There’s actual sidewalks now. Huge ones, man. Yeah. Really huge ones. I don’t love, you know, and I want to put this out there cuz I haven’t said it in a while. I don’t love running on the sidewalks. It’s bad for you. Not. Yeah. Yeah. It’s not good. You ever have any like sort of like glute injury back here and you go from like asphalt and then you go on the sidewalk, it’s like you could feel it. You feel the difference. Definitely. It doesn’t have I don’t I I don’t know what the scientific situation is behind it, but it doesn’t have shock absorbers, right? Whatever that is. Right. Right. You know, so Well, let me ask you this. If you had a plan for the next year, like what what type of plan would make you proud personally and professionally? Like what is what is executing Tyler’s goals look like this year outside of becoming a winning the lottery or whatever? Winning the lottery. I played the lottery. That would be play lottery. I played lottery twice. You play lottery? Play lottery. It was probably like 600 million. Yeah, it was insane. Yeah, dude. Take a 30 minute on that. Think about that for a moment. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I guess outside of winning the lottery. Yeah. I think it’s just to continue the balance that I have with my family. Mhm. Right. Um, and balance is like a hard word to define. I mean, some days it’s work, right? Some days you can chill and you can relax, maybe watch a movie. Mhm. Um, so balance is hard to define, but it’s just I want to continue to be there for my family. Mhm. Um, haven’t missed one of my daughter’s volleyball tournaments yet. Um, I want to continue that. Right. So, like with this new role and with the ambition that I have, with the changes that I want to make, that we want to make, um, I can I can get lost in it, right? And I can there’s there’s days where I I just love to stay in the office till 7:00 p.m. just, right, and not come out when it’s dark. Arrive dark, leave dark. Yeah, I love that. Right. And I can get I can get stuck in that, right? So, my goal is to just remain the dad that I’ve always been. Mhm. Despite all these external things that are changing. Yep. I like that, man. You got to bring him up the hill with you. Yeah. You got to bring them up the hill. That’s one thing I learned as a young entrepreneur was I got up, I was scaling this mountain, scaling it, scaling the [ ] out of it, and then I got nobody was there. Yeah. Bring them with you. Yep. You know, I like that goal. I’m really um you know I was driving over here and I was thinking I was like you know what I am just so excited. I’m so excited. I’m so pumped up. And then a thought came into my mind. I was like why Chris? You don’t even pay yourself. And I was like you [ ] better man. Let’s go. You know like I let’s go. We we are in the rhythm. We are in the groove. And frankly it feels like we’re just getting started here in year 12. Yeah. You know grateful to have you in the position you’re in. so grateful to have you on the show. Um, anything you want to say to the people before we exit here? I know I put you on the spot like that. I would just say it like and it’s it’s hard to say it right because I I talk to clients about this all the time too and it’s it’s hard to get your point across because yeah, I work for Peaks and I’m an employee there, right? And like whenever I say like Peaks is a special place, it’s different. Mhm. Right. So, it’s hard to push it because I work there, but it is, you know, and just the the connection that is there, you know, I see the behavioral health techs, right? Just connecting with clients, right? You got an issue. You’re not just a number. We’re not just going to pass you off. We’ll take the time to figure this out with you. Mhm. Um, and either even in leadership and you know, as a director, if there’s anything that we miss, we’ll own up to it, right? Like I know other programs that would be and put it back on the client if something is missed. Mhm. Right. Like hey, yeah, this is our fault. It’s something we missed. We’ll we’ll make sure we get this handled. Yeah. You know, and it’s the little things like that. It’s just treating people like people and not just a number and not hurting them through any program. Yeah. I mean, that’s that’s what I would want to say about Peaks that everyone everyone cares there. Everyone has their story that they’re leaking out into their work. Yeah, I love that, man. And they’ve found a way to do it in a really synchronized, efficient way, right? Cuz in the past it was like, let me just sit under this tree and do this thing. And yeah, it’s fine. But now it’s in the flow. It’s just built and packed into the flow are these touch points that you’re talking about. And I love that you mentioned the BHTs, too. We got to get them on a show. I was talking with uh Tyler about it before the before we got on here. I was like, he’s like, “Why don’t you get these people on?” And I was like, honestly, I I’ve been talking with them about it for a couple months. They’re just so valuable on campus. I don’t want them to come down here. But we got to get them on, man. Because your point is solid from the ground level troops. Often times a position that’s overlooked, underpaid, and overworked. Yeah. Is now being attuned with, seen, valued, and heard in peaks in a really, really cool way. And the output we’re getting on the ground level by those freaking warriors, right? Is something fierce, right? You know. Yeah. And that’s powerful, man. Yeah. Because we’re very reliant on them in a lot of ways. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Across the board. Yep. So, well, all right, y’all. Okay, man. Man, let’s wrap this up and let’s get back to saving lives one day at a time. Yeah. Grateful to have you on. We’ll have you on again. Definitely going to get the BHTs on here shortly. Some of the team members, man, talk about how they’re rocking and moving throughout the day. Uh again, appreciate you. Until next time. Perfect. Thanks, Chris. Yo, people, check us out. Podcast, YouTube, you know the drill. Until next time, stay beautiful and blessed. Peace.

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Episode 159Right Here, Right Now: The Work That Changes Everything with Sparkle LindsayWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/peWV61wH-a4Listen NowDescriptionIn this episode of Finding Peaks, Chris reconnects with Sparkle Lindsay — Peaks alumni, coach, community champion, and founder of Sparkle LLC — for a powerful conversation on growth, healing, and what it really means to show up for yourself and others. Since her last appearance, Sparkle has stepped fully into her role as a coach’s coach and community leader, helping others navigate their own journeys while continuing to deepen her own work. Together, Chris and Sparkle explore what defines a true coach, the importance of “holding space,” and why the strongest people aren’t the ones who carry everything — but the ones who learn to stand on the strength beneath them. This episode dives into the idea of being “the strong person,” the weight that can come with it, and how healing from the core allows you to shift from surviving to truly living. Sparkle shares her perspective on helping people help themselves, becoming a different kind of role model, and recognizing that the real light at the end of the tunnel isn’t a destination — it’s the work itself. Grounded, reflective, and deeply human, this conversation is a reminder to slow down, take a breath, and come back to what matters most — right here, right now. For more information on Sparkle, check out sparklelindsay.com.

Talking Points1. Introduction to the Show 2. Catching up with Sparkle 3. Celebrating Sparkle LLC’s growth 4. Coaches Corner 5. Defining a coach 6. The strength of the legs beneath you 7. “The strong person” 8. Why the work matters 9. The real light at the end of the tunnel 10. Help people help themselves 11. A different kind of role model 12. Holding space for yourself 13. Healing from the core 14. A moment to reflect 15. The next steps 16. Right here, right now 17. sparklelindsay.com 18. Closing thoughts Quotes

“The only thing that is inevitable is change” – Sparkle Lindsay

Episode Transcripts

Episode -159- TranscriptsThe human experience is to be able to have a foundation that keeps you from falling through the cracks. It’s finding our power from within. What about your boundaries? Yeah. What about your rest? What about the time we spend? And that’s when you know you’re in a space where no one will ever take your power cuz you have it from within. That becomes exceptional because no one can tell you better than you where you fit in your life.
Hey everybody and welcome to another episode of Finding Peaks. Your host truly and as passionately as ever, Christopher Michael Burns, president and founder here at Peaks Recovery. So grateful to be joined in our new studio for the third episode in the new studio. What we’re basically doing here is just running it back with all my favorite guests. So grateful to be joined by the founder of Sparkle Lindsay LLC, uh, friend, colleague, and alumni of Peaks Recovery Center, Sparkle. So grateful to have you. So happy to be back. I think it’s been about a year and a half since I I mean, I love what you’ve done with the place. We got the mountains out here. Normally, we got pipes right here, but it’s a little cloudy. Yeah, just a little. You know, we got Finally, we’re getting some rain, so we’re grateful for that. Rain in early March. Better than nothing. You know what I mean? So it’s uh over the last couple of weeks it’s been um on my mind just like grief in our field and um grief and early recovery and the sum total impact it has on us today as professionals as humans but most certainly the early stages of our recovery and professional career. Yes. Mhm. Um I was talking to a guest, a friend of mine who was in about 5 years ago last week and we had a uh an unfortunate event happen where somebody passed away a couple about 3 weeks ago and he was in his um millu of guests that were in the program with him. Then I text him. We’re like, “Hey man, just making sure you’re doing all right, lean leaning into this and you know, let me know if you need any support.” And he was like, “Let me know if you need any support.” He’s like, I was talking to another buddy and we thought to ourselves today, I wonder how many times this has happened. Yeah. With Chris Burns and I thought to myself like it is this very interesting thing that we walk through in our field is where I get to sit in front of you and I get to talk about a celebration that we had seven years ago just 100 feet away. Yeah. That was life-changing, altering not just for you and your family but for thousands of people now. And it’s um it’s something that I want to make sure that I sit with and talk about and connect with because it’s it’s very special. Yeah. And it’s unique. And to have you in my life as a human, as a colleague, a professional, and friend means the absolute world. And what you’re doing lighting this world on fire one day at a time. I’m just happy to bear witness to this. Well, we really didn’t take any any time here to know um grief. Mhm. Yeah. How many Chris Burns ises of the world and the grief we’ve been through. Um coming up on First Things First, thanks for having me back. Um Sparkle LLC is about five and a half years old. Um and it is been amazing. Um I am six years 10 months sober. So very close to that seven year mark. Um I’m feeling every piece of that um every piece of this this journey um the gratitude. Okay, gratitude on a different level. And you know I talked a lot about the layers, right? But what’s really come to me now is, you know, I’m getting ready to launch the coaches corner um with Sparkle LLC for coaches to come and let down their hair. It’s a lifetime fitness for coaches to figure out who they are, their mind, body, and spirit. And one of the reasons why is because during this journey, I’ve lost a lot of coaches along the way um due to not being able to take care of themselves. Um not understanding how important it is to take care of themselves, not realizing that they can’t give away something they don’t have. And sometimes you can have it at first, but it’s easy to lose it. Yeah. while you’re also helping all of these other people. And so in my classes, my classes have been growing and I’m forever grateful for it. But I’m not, this isn’t a game, okay? People’s lives are not a game to me. Um I had a friend actually who wrote me yesterday. So you know how we get into those spaces where we’re like, hm, why am I doing this? You know, sometimes we can get tired and we start moving and we’re doing all these different things and we start to realize like you’re tired and maybe something doesn’t go right and you’re like, why is this happening? What do we have going on? And I had to just kind of lay down yesterday. I had to lay down a little bit and I had this this exciting feeling about all these new things that are happening. But I’ve I also had a class of like 40 this weekend and I just had to take a step back and say, “Okay, what you doing, girl?” You know, what’s going on? What What are you feeling? How do you feel today? You know, and uh I said, “Man, I I feel tired and I’m asking myself, why am I doing this?” Right? So, I’m talking to my partner and and we’re quiet and everything else. And then I have a old friend from high school. He uh shared my post on Facebook for Sparkle LLC. And I wrote him and I said, “Hey, thank you. Thank you for sharing my post.”
And he said, “Absolutely. Keep bringing them home.”
And that would that showed me my why. I said, “Won’t he do it?” Soon as you start to uh soon as you start to ask yourself if this is even making sense. Someone who has known me all my life, but I barely talked to said, “Keep bringing them home.” That’s what we’re doing. We’re bringing people home, Chris. all the other stuff is just icing on the cake. Yeah. But to watch people come home, watch people come home to themselves, it’s powerful. And watching coaches advance and grow is powerful. And so we’re in this space now where um we’ve we have been doing this recovery coaching stuff for a while now. Mhm. And now there’s a space where we’ve got to take it to the next level. We’ve got to make sure coaches are taken care of, coaches understand grief, how to sit in that grief, how to lean on their supports, uh when grief does happen, when you first lose that recovery that you’ve worked oh so hard with. Um and then also remembering the people who worked with you and worked oh so hard with you as well. And it’s really taken us back to as coaches a sense of reflection. And it’s important that a lot of us that are out here that do have six years, seven years, and so much more hold on to those that are zero to three years sober right now. Just because a coach has been sober for a year or so does not mean that they have found their magic yet. Mhm. And we as leaders, we have to be able to help them continue to find their magic. And if we don’t do that, we’re losing them. We’re just adding to the chaos that’s already out there. We’ve got to give coaches a safe place to call home. And we’ve got to take care of them because happy coaches make happy people everywhere. Yeah. And we’ve got people who are building these agencies and they’re building all of these sober livingings and that’s fine. Do that. But when you start placing people in them, make sure there’s succession plans for them so that they have a plan. There’s advancement. They see growth outside of just being a coach. Are they growing into the person they deserve to be? And I will continue to say that because coming from a background of HR, if we don’t have our people, we don’t have [ ] Yeah. So we got to work through our people and with our people to get to a common goal. But if you have no people, where are you going? If there are no people to grow forward, to go through the hard grief, to go through the hard times because we’re so busy building everything. We’re leaving the main part to the recipe behind. What are we doing? Yeah. And this is the reason why the coach’s corner has come to my mind because I don’t want coaches just to live a life of only wanting to be coaches. I want them to know that advancement is out there. Growth and success can truly happen and that we will not let you go. We do not care what has happened in the past. Come back. Get some of that love. Continue to grow your magic and go kick ass. Yeah, that’s what we do every day as coaches. That’s what I do as a coach’s coach. My job is to make sure that these co coaches, 1,400 coaches, okay, in a year and a half now, we were at 800, that they are equipped for what is happening out here right now. Um, and in a lot of the podcast I’ve talked about, I talk about chaos. And a lot of that chaos we can’t go up with because it involves people’s lives. We have to be where our feet are and we have to understand there’s so much more to this than you’ve been a sobriety go coach, right? We can’t throw people out here to the wolves because it’s already hard enough to stay sober as it is, but now you’re bringing in all this other energy of people sick or people who need help. We can’t just throw them out there. And I refuse to do that. And it wouldn’t even sit right with me if I did. So if I have to build the biggest coaches hub I can across the world, then I will do so so that people have spaces to speak openly, to be honest, and to grow and to be honest with themselves and evolve into this beautiful butterfly. And I and you know, we talked about the butterfly and how it works the last time we were here. It’s still the same. Mhm. And the evolving of your transformation and and sitting in that uncomfortableness of ascension is needed. So if a coach doesn’t have a place to sit in the uncomfortable, what are we doing? Let’s let’s let’s grow some leaders. Let’s make it out here where we become the leaders in this industry as coaches and as therapists and as healers. All of the above. I’m not just talking to coaches now. I’m talking in the human in the human spirit here. We as leaders have to to pave the way and get these people ready to go to war. Not with a pencil, but with some damn armor. Yeah. And that’s where I’m at now in this space. I’ve learned a lot in my coaching career for six years. Six years I’ve been a coach. I started pretty early, but there were people who never let me go, and I’m forever grateful for it, and I will continue doing that for the rest of my life. I will not let people go as they continue to use the stair steps that they can to get on top and to and to open up spaces where people can be on top. Let’s let’s hold space for people to build everywhere. Yeah. There’s enough space in Colorado. There’s enough space in the United States for everybody to get a piece of the pie. So, hold space and open it up for everyone to grow forward. Yeah. We’ve got to be able to collaborate and partner together to help these coaches grow forward. And as we’re growing in it, we got to see that part, the big picture, the real picture. The more of us that are out here helping, the more people are getting what they need to keep moving forward. And this isn’t a time for us not to unite. This is the best time ever to unite together, take it to the next level as a community. Yeah. You know, and I think that’s the space I’m at. We don’t want to leave we don’t want people left behind because we we we want them to get something done here, but we’re not going to we’re not going to help them grow forward so that they don’t go back out in these streets and use or get caught by that thing called fentanyl or xylazine. We want them to push forward. So, let’s create a pathway that helps all of them grow forward. It’s okay. Yeah. You’re talking about something so beautiful. That was amazing. Um, but you’re talking about at a very like ground level of like doing really quality work. And you said this isn’t a game, but if it was a game, it would be the Super Bowl. Yeah. Right. But you’re talking about cultivating authentic, intimate, interconnectedness with the people you serve. So, the type of person, the coach that has to show up to do that work, to do it that way, interconnected and intimate, has to be about their mental health. Has to be able to show up in a way. has to be empowered. But to your point, a lot of people are just throwing people in there. They’re not thinking about the quality of care. They’re thinking about the mass total of the care that they’re doing. And they’re like, “Hey, we got 500 here doing this thing.” But if you can go in and train these coaches, cultivate a human to ascend to the top. Not only can we get them to where they want to be in their lives, but we’re being more impactful at the ground level in the community. Exactly. And the people that you’re facing every day, Sparks, and the ones that your coaches are facing. Yeah. This isn’t um PHP. No. You know what I’m saying? This is the often times the worst day of someone’s life. Yes. And they’re there for it. Yes. I love connecting with you because without you knowing it, like your mission is saving lives and disrupting the industry through quality of care just like us. It’s it’s and it’s it’s wild because the partnerships I’ve had with therapists and and big places like Peaks, right, has been beautiful because I hear a lot of therapists who say, “Man, we love we have coaches.” And I love that space. But I also get calls from my coaches where they’re they have to have guidance, you know, and I make it very clear to a lot of the coaches, a good coach has a great coach behind them. Don’t don’t make don’t get it twisted, right? because there’s you’ve got to have mentors that help you through this this thing called life period for the rest of our lives. But you just said it, the foundation to what you are building is so important. You know, my dad told me, he said, “Sparks, you know that your business can only go as fast or as slow as your recovery goes.” He said, “So why don’t you sit back, relax, and let divine timing shine through?” M here we are 5 and a half years later with a business that is slowly but surely climbing authentically with a foundation a foundation so strong with so many people around it to hold me up to hold it up that it couldn’t go any better than what it is right now because this is all we have is now but be intentional we have to be intentional with what we’re building my somebody told me I think it was you if you build it, they will come. Well, I’m building the hell out of it and I want to make sure it has a foundation. And this isn’t anything in life, you know, even just as the human, let’s just go there. The human experience is to be able to have a foundation that keeps you from falling through the cracks. So if each and every one of us could build a foundation that helps that, think about how strong businesses would be, how strong the recovery world would be, how strong just somebody who has to go to work every day and come home and they work for Walmart would be. So that’s the reason why I asked the question and I asked coaches this specifically. Do you have the legs to your table? And that’s why I wrote the book. That’s why the series is there is because everything that we need to do after we take these classes and after we get certified is where the real work starts. And you have to find that balance. And that practice isn’t happening. And that was that’s the motivation for the coach’s corner. And I’m not just setting up the coach’s corner for just recovery. Oh, no, no, no. I’m setting up the coach’s corner for every coach out there. I’ve had people come to me as coaches who are uh life coaches or you know trauma coaches and they’re like I’m getting wiped out out here and I don’t know where to start. Yeah. You know so there’s that space where well then selfcare is so punchy. Yeah. People are like yo do your self-care. It’s like what what are we talking about? Yeah. What does that mean? Do I got to go run a marathon? That doesn’t I don’t want to do that. Yeah. Or whatever. You know but like everybody you do your self-care. Do your self-care. Do your self-care. Make sure you do your self-care. I remember HR saying it here every time this field you’re going to want to do your self-care but there’s like no integration no and that was there’s the other part that series self-care is the best care level up that now is in schools in Aurora public schools for me I wrote it on a different level self-care that we’ve made it like it’s a job and I said you know what self-care is supposed to be fun it’s also supposed to go deeper than just go get your hair done or do whatever I mean we got to get our hair did but Still, the point of the matter is what about your boundaries? Yeah. What about your rest? What about the time we spend? I mean, it goes deep. I love what you’re saying. It reminds me of I I used to say this and you reminded me of it. What would it be like if you were number one in your own treatment plan? Yes. Like what if what if I came first? Yeah. For like Wednesday or whatever, you know, like because in all reality, someone asked me, “Sparkle, how do you do it?” But I said, “Well, you come first in this industry, everyone. Everyone that is in this, you can’t give away something you don’t have.” And and but we tried to do it. And I and I think it it takes me back to probably four years ago when I started talking. I called it uh the strong person syndrome. The strong person syndrome. Something tells me I’ve been there. You’re like, “Where’s she going with this?” I had my balls up. I didn’t think anybody saw, you know, oh [ ] So, you know, I talk about the fixer, but then there’s also this strong person where we feel like it’s on us to get it done. Yeah. And we feel like I have to make this happen and if I don’t make this happen, then this is going to happen and this, right? And then I’ll do this. Yes. And then I’ll do this. Yeah. And then we start to be everybody’s savior. we start to be everybody’s everything except for us and then that’s where we start to lose ourselves. And I remember having a conversation, I think it was with uh Tammy Romano and uh she said, “Do you trust yourself?” This was when I was a year sober, and I said, “Yeah, I trust my body.” And then we started talking about being so strong that we’re not able to drop that pride and take care of ourselves, right? We’re not able to do it because we have now done basically what society says, take care of everyone. Okay, that’s the way we see things where we’re now starting to rewire our mindset and our way of thinking. We still have this athletic, some of us have this athletic mentality. I’m going to win. We’re going to get it done. Mhm. But in all reality, the only thing you’re getting done is what everybody else is wanting while you’re being left behind. Mhm. So why can’t we all just walk across the finish line together? So hard to put down like that that intersection of pride and healing is like like you take yours, I’ll take mine, and we’ll walk across the finish line together. But why is it that I feel or some of us may feel jump on my back, right? I got this for a while. Yeah. So that then you could do it and then now I’m left behind. That’s not the way the world works anymore. Especially if you want to last in this industry, you know. You doing sematic work with Tammy? Uh-huh. Yeah, I did it first year. I was sitting here trying to think. K’s going to laugh. I was sitting here trying to think the whole time. I’m like, why does she seem so advanced for seven years in recovery? I’m like, when I was seven years in recovery, God, I couldn’t push a damn shopping cart. And then and then but like I felt like like my life and my recovery, my mental health really took off when I started doing sematic work, but I was like I forgot about that. So I did seatic work with Tammy Romano uh probably three or four year four months in and then you know I went with my father who has Lindsay quantum healing perfect transition into that. Yes. So the quantum healing I did you know sematic two years and then quantum healing I have done with my father for five and a half years. So I am in this space where everything I think about is outside of the box mentality. Yeah. Cuz I’m sitting here thinking like how do we how do we get more bright lights at seven years that show up like you? And then only that but the legs to the table. I have had a therapist, you know, for 5 years. She let me go, but um I also still have space to talk to her. Okay. You know, and then um I’ve got hate when that happens obviously. I know, right? Damn it. I know. I know. I’m like uh you kidding me? Are you sure? in the six month break. Are you positive? Cuz you do know we’re going to another level, right? You do want to come with me this only in a couple months or whatever. You know, I’m going to call you like next week. You can’t get rid of me that quick, you know, cuz you know, there’s spaces that we’re in now, right? But that part is real. And then on top of that, like I now have, you know, um I lost I lost my recovery coach um last year six days before my six years. um she had been my coach for six years and I lost her. So I lost a very pertinent leg um to my table. Um and I had so many other mentors to help. But uh I can still hear her voice saying just remember Sparkle, don’t forget your why. Don’t forget why you did this. And she taught me everything I know. She created the uh the first program out here for the emergency room and then from there she took us to another level. Don Gillum. Um may she rest in peace. She was one of those people who she didn’t push us through anything. She sat with us. She was honest with us and she helped us grow forward. And then she taught me the steps. You know, I was she was holding our hands through it. Kathy plush as well. They both were there. they were holding our hands through it like we were almost babies. Um, and then she we evolved. We took things to a different level because we had that support and we were told when we were doing something wrong so that we could fix it and we learned how to take that constructive love, that constructive care that we needed to understand this wasn’t a game and it isn’t one. And so from there after I left, she helped me build my business. is Don Gillum. Uhuh. I um posted a quote this morning. I think it’s Don Gillum’s quote. It is example is not the main thing influencing others. It is the only thing. Mhm. Crazy, right? Because it sounds like not only what she spoke, but more so what she did and how she showed up in the way she moved. Yes. Yes. And her movement was, she always told me, just remember, everybody’s still sick in this industry. So, people don’t know what they don’t know. And everybody’s work is different. She said, “So, open your heart and open your mind to what it looks like when they truly have the tools to be at their full potential. Don’t look at where they’re at right now. Just meet them where they’re at, but give them the tools to go out there and do what they need to do. She said, “But at the same time, I also learned from her because as I was growing, she also was throwing a lot of stuff on her back. She’s not here anymore. Mhm. I learned a lot of lessons from the people who were there to guide me. And a lot of it was being so tired. Um and not having a boundary to say I need to take a step back and just take a take a rest, right? Um and I’ve really tried to be intentional with practicing that. um so that we can walk the talk and actually do the self-care and actually show people that it’s possible and that you come back swinging 10 times harder when you take the time you need off to focus on who you are. And the only way coaching or therap being a therapist or whatever can shine through you is if you consistently are doing work that shines on you. Yeah. Have to do that first and then take that light and give it to others. And there’s a space right now where everybody’s not doing that. They’re just giving away all of their light too soon and then sometimes they can’t get it back. And that’s a space where it’s it’s scary and it hurts. It hurts to lose great people, you know, because of that. Yeah. And it you’re you’re right. I think sometimes it does feel like a step back. Yeah. Um a colleague of mine once told me I’ve always said this since he told me it. It’s like it’s the old slingshot analogy. M mhm. Where you pull back and it feels like you’re taking a step back as you certainly are because you’re aiming to get the trajectory to launch to a spot that you’ve never been. Yes. And so it feels very and then you’re there you’re like whoa whoa. Exactly. Benefit of hindsight. Whatever you want to call it. It’s the coolest thing. But we h our mindset thinks that if we don’t go go because of that instant gratification that we’re not getting things done. But most of us, especially in the entrepreneur world, know that things happen in waves often. And sometimes that rest is needed for your next level, whatever that level looks like. That’s why I don’t [ ] around because like my head, I have the list, check marks are good. Yep. X’s are decline. Periods are not good. That means it’s in progress. But like, so then at the end of the day, this doesn’t get to lie to me. Yeah. Yeah, like I know I came in, I had attention to intention. I got done what I needed to get done and I’m going to fold it up. It’s so interesting now how I’m able to focus so much more on taking exceptional care of myself. Like I have this ring on this aura. I’ve talked about it before. Yeah. But like the goal is exceptional from like a resilience standpoint. That means you’re eating well, you’re sleeping well, you you have good sleep hygiene, you’re connecting, you’re lowering your stress levels, all this stuff. Yeah. And I remember thinking I was like, “Well, I’m going to get to exceptional. I’m going to hang out there.” And so there’s like an exceptional line and now there’s like this thing that goes above it. And I’m like, “I want to hang out to an inch above the exceptional line because guess what? Like I feel exceptional.” And the people that we get to serve quite frankly deserve nothing less on a daily basis. And for us not to have more intention than that in the field, call it self-care, call it what you will, show up at 100% because the people, yes, they need you in order to come home. Well, they need you order in order to come home and they also need to know that it’s possible, right? Like, show me show me what’s good for the love of God. I mean, you asking me to like it’s okay. You got to wake up early. Let’s [ ] it’s like 50/50. There’s a you know, and also like I said, be intentional with what you want for yourself. And and that’s that’s not selfish. That’s called doing the work. Okay. So, there’s a there’s a space here where we’ve got to lean in on am I okay? Am I doing well? Am I exceptional? Because I enjoy who I am and the people I serve, but more so how do I serve myself on a regular basis so others see that too. And the greatest part is consistently learning about us. The curiosities are a beautiful thing, but let’s even go deeper than that. the the it’s not even just about the curiosities of who we are as a person, but I I think I mentioned it at the symposium. It’s finding our power from within. That place is is past exceptional because at that point, you know, you feel good and it doesn’t matter what anyone thinks because you know what you think and now you know it’s you versus you. Mhm. So all you got to do is keep moving forward and then you start to realize that whatever else needs to happen around you will evolve as it may and you keep moving and I’ve noticed that in this close to seven years here I just been moving. I just keep moving and moving intentionally for myself and I’m in this world of like let’s get busy. Let’s do what we have to do. not even realizing how many people are around watching it and they’re doing the same thing and they’re implementing these new things for themselves and it’s you can feel it gaining and growing and that’s when you know you’re in a space where no one will ever take your power cuz you have it from within. That becomes exceptional because no one can tell you better than you where you fit in your life and what you want to do. Once that power comes in and once you keep working, creativity transpires. It goes everywhere. The point of the matter is is we get to people who are zero to three years sober, which is early sobriety, and they don’t realize the real light at the end of the tunnel. What this could look like. Yes. We’ve got to say that. We’ve got to speak so they know you’re not done yet. You’re just getting started. Let’s freaking go. Right. And that’s the space. When I’m in there talking and we’re doing these classes, a lot of these coaches, you know, they come in and they’re like, I’m we’re going to have a book and we’ll be fine. And I’m like, “All right, let’s start talking about some topics. Let’s get real. Let’s get raw. Let’s get uncut. There’s tears that vulnerability. We are a vulnerable party of people who are expanding and showing our lived experience to all of these people. So, come on. Let’s this class is yours. Let’s get busy.” And if you can feel this, you can feel the room moving and you can feel them moving. You can feel their energy saying, “I’m ready to do this.” Yeah. And you also can feel some of that nervousness and and a little heartache and a little bit of being scared like what if I do mess up unethical wise? What if I don’t have the right boundaries? Who do I call on? I said, so who are your people? Who are your legs? It’s time to get busy for ourselves so we can illuminate that light to others and have some left for ourselves as well. Yeah. Not just helping people just to help people. Like it’s changing the game for real. Yes. like and I I remember back in Alcoholics Anonymous too, it’s always like if you want what we have, you’ll do what we do. Yeah. But that in a more like uh you know broad bonafide and enthusiastic way. And I love the way you approach it too because the the way that people can be the best versions of themselves is to see themselves within their recovery program. And so like a one-sizefits-all doesn’t really work for those Yeah. people because people are diverse connected and not disconnected. and you see the space. I I did I did AA for a little bit, but I did recovery dharma. Yeah. Um obviously now quantum energy, I mean obviously being very spiritual um and understanding spiritual gifts for myself. Um and things that helped me holistically from my lupus going into remission to autoimmune and being able to work out and walk and feel great. I had to do more than just one thing because that that’s that don’t work for me. It has never worked for me because I’ve always been someone who said, “Let’s try it all and see where it sticks and if it doesn’t stick, go back and try something else and then if you get bored, throw something else in the mix.” You have to be able to work with yourself. You got to have like one of those craftsman with like the 16 pockets or whatever, right? Tools, tools, tools, tools, tools. Yeah. And if I don’t want to use that, then bring this leg in and I’m going to use this today. You got to be able to be ready to rock, especially as a coach, cuz you got to pull from everywhere sometimes. Even when you don’t know what space you’re in with this person and you’re meeting them where they’re at, got to bring them tools out, right? So that I mean it’s it’s being a part of your own recovery program, understanding multiple pathways to recovery, being non-judgmental about people’s growth, whether it’s recovery, whether it’s mental health, whether it’s gambling, whether it’s not even addiction, maybe codependency, all of the above. Whatever you’re doing as a human, think about where you’re going in your life and that you know you better than anyone. Mhm. So, if anybody’s trying to tell you how you should do you, Mhm. I can’t really make that make sense. Yeah. You have to do the work to know what it is you want. Take yourself out on dates. Go do things you’ve never done before with you so you can fall in love with you. Then you’ll start to attract those that love you, too, and they’re doing their work. But if we’re not doing this this stuff, we’re not attracting anything that can help us. oftent times we get stuck, we get stagnant and we don’t evolve and remember the only thing that uh is inevitable is change. Yeah. Everything is constantly changing. You know, people need to hear that too. And I, you know, I’m um it’ll be 18 years in recovery in July, almost 18 years in the field, and I’ve had to I’ve had to fall back in love with that person on occasion. Um, and I was going to say this to you because it was so impactful to me and Cass had always said it to me, but a couple years ago I would tell myself stories as a professional is like, you know, we’ve met a bunch of times. Yeah. Um, I would tell myself stories as professionals like I didn’t I didn’t necessarily want to build it this big and it wasn’t going to look like this and it wasn’t necessarily my plan and I don’t know if I’m like the right person for it. And Cass would always look at me and she would be like, and what I know today to be true is she would look at me with this look to say like, I know who and what you are and somehow you’ve lost sight of that. Yeah. Like you are Chris Burns. I have been with you for 16 years. I know exactly who you are and I know exactly what peaks recovery and the people need. It’s you. And I remember sitting there like arguing with her and being like, “No, you don’t understand because it’s this other thing and I want to try this other thing.” And I came back in a year ago and um yeah, I fell back in love with this thing we call the Super Bowl and the humans that we have the opportunity to transform and connect with and it has been the most beautiful thing. I could not be more in love with what I get to do on a daily basis. But it’s back to your point too of ensuring I have those legs to my table because Cass has always been a huge leg. Well, and and what you get to pick your legs and you get to move them and groove move with them. move with them, right? Mine’s evolved. I have Jason Tracy. He’s been with me for a long time as an entrepreneur coach. And here we are going into this coach’s corner and he’s like, “Let’s ride. Let’s rock Sparks.” He has watched me when I was like, “Is there something on my face? Is this how we do podcast right six years in But one thing is I talked to him this morning and he said, “Let’s go. Let’s go to work.” And there’s a space where I know he’s he exists. I know my father exists. And I know that there’s spaces when sometimes they move and then somebody else has to come in. But you got to work, right? And when you start to do this, it’s it’s to me it’s like playing a basketball game. You got to have these five players on the court so you can score and then you’ve also got to have some time to take a break and let somebody fill in. And so I remember I remember you. I was a part of your program when it was you and I came and met you and I remember how wonderful you were with working with the people and through the people. So when you said I’m coming back to be a part of what Peaks has always been, I got chills because it’s always been in the center of you. And so it’s a place where you had to come back to you and just remember that why and then see things and have conversations like we’re having. I came from your program. Yeah. So clearly you were doing something right. You had the right people in the right places. Why stop now? It’s so funny you say that Sparks cuz anytime I tell anybody I would be like, “Yeah, I’m back at peaks.” Any alumni is always like I don’t know what you were doing there. Like that’s silly. We were wondering funny joke. What did you want to take a break or something? Cuz we were all wondering pretty sure, you know. So, when that came back, it gave me chills because I’m like, “Okay, let’s let’s [ ] go.” You know? And not only that, but like we talked you and I just talked what, three weeks ago, talking about this new era, right? And our age. Yep. This is this is our this is our time. Let’s go. next decade, next space to really just fall in love with ourselves again and again, but also to help pave the way. Pave the way and keep things unified. And I think that’s the space we really have to be in right now. Not that I think, but I know. Um, and that space is kindness and understanding, love for one another, and and also holding each other up if we have to. And then reminding ourselves, you know, my mission statement, helping people help themselves one step at a time through positive transformation. Let people do for them. They have it in them. Help them find their magic. Yeah. And when you see that and you know you’ve even been a part of just a little, you let them know that you’re honored. They picked you cuz they could have picked some [ ] body else, right? But they chose you. Now go out there and walk with them and let them grow and allow them to know that you value who they are and that every piece of what they have to offer in this coaching space, in the therapy space, in the human space means a lot, you know, no matter what. And you just get to be along for the ride. It reminded me of um I said it to a guest this morning and um Lisa Smith I think said it on the show. Uhhuh. Lisa. Yeah. I should have her back on. Wonder how she’s doing. But she said to me on the show and she does a lot of family work. Mhm. The way that you’re talking today, the way that you’re encapsulating not just the coach’s corner, but the way that you show up, the way that you empower people, the people that you meet in the hospitals, on the streets sometimes in the worst days of their lives. It’s like we have this moment and we need to be there in the best form possible for that moment. But Lisa asks a question in regards to families usually, but I ask it just on a daily basis now because it was very heavy when she asked me it. But she always says, “If the last thing you said to the person or your loved one was the last thing you ever got to say, would you be okay with what you said?” I love that question. And I think we need to ask ourselves that not just as humans, as families and connected souls, but as professionals. Oh yeah. Right. Because that matters a lot. It it matters a lot. And let me tell you why that hit me so hard right there is because in the space of being this recovery coach and everything else, I never knew if I was going to get back with my family, I never knew. Um, and that was when I was, you know, zero to 3 years in and, you know, therapy and I didn’t know how things were going to go. And, uh, every time I think about it, you know, I’ve created an entire class that involves all of their gifts and the things that happen. But I bring them on the platform to help because there was a space where I stopped. I kept working on me and then they kept seeing that and then they started working on them and then all of a sudden we all started coming back together and then they said, “How can we be a part of it?” And that space right there was so powerful because a lot of them said, “Sparkle, you think you were a role model when you were get had your degree and you played ball and everything else, but they said you’re more of a role model now because you took yourself out of the deep dark depths of a cave and into this.” And then you said, “Come on y’all, let’s roll.” And they didn’t even think twice. They have jumped on with me. They have supported me. They have been a part of my life. We have grown stronger, but it took a village. It took all of us to realize that family dynamic and to let everybody heal on their own time. And now here we are. Here I am almost seven years in. And it’s been just amazing watching family growth as well. M and then also watching my family begin and continue to trust that I’m taking care of my stuff. Um and that they are they’re willing to be a part of it and that a lot of people they don’t think that that’s possible and that’s why I bring it on the platform. I said, “My family is your family, and I want to share them with the world because there’s a way for all of us to work together and get to a common goal that’s powerful for all of us, you know.” And I I Lisa Smith, I love it because I’ve had an opportunity to work hand inand with her when she called me to work with families and do it more of an intervention, I guess I would say. And uh it was just magical having such great conversations with her on that level as well. and knowing that she was in Denver and everything else and making moves, but she never ever thought twice about calling me and telling me, “I need you to talk to some of these parents. Let’s get this going.” Um, so just that part of partnership and working through and working with each other and then really getting into the depths of how family members feel. The classes are really good for allies as well. That’s what we say. Allies come into the classes. I have sometimes more allies in the classes now that’s cool than I ever thought because they want to learn about recovery and mental health too. Um and also a lot of them start to really unravel who they are. So that part is beautiful. You got all the walks of life in there going on here. Didn’t really think it it was a me thing. Yeah. What? What? Exactly. Sparkle. I think I’m codependent. Oh, you do? Yep. Okay. What are you going to do about it? Is there a KOD class or Absolutely. There is. Right. Yeah. I love that. It opens the doors for a lot. And I think um mental health is mental healthy. And you you bring up something really cool with your family. Yeah. And it wasn’t your goal. It’s not like you’re going to therapy to be like one day they will follow me. You know, it’s like no, you have no it’s not even in your field. You’re like, I’m just trying to survive and figure this thing out and whatever. And then one day your family’s by your side. And I do agree like family recovery is the best. Yes. But that wasn’t your intention. I think I think I’ve talked to you about this book before, but it’s called greatness. Yeah, I have. Right. Yes, you have. That’s selfless exceptionalism. That’s you taking taking what God gave you and making the world around you a better place. Yes. And that’s that space where you can’t think about anyone else but you. And I had to remember this. great therapist once again both of them um is the space for me that was like as long as you take care of what sparkle can take care of everything else will evolve as it may and that’s the why as long as you are doing your work go ahead talk say whatever you want but I know that I’m moving and I know that the only thing I can do is control what’s over here right and then the wisdom to know the difference when it’s not my [ ] okay the wisdom them to know the difference when it’s not ours to hold because everybody’s going to grow in their own time. The only thing we can hold is us at the time to continue growing forward and walk the talk. And that’s for anything we do in life. It’s not ours. Somebody else’s is not ours. But it is our place to hold space for them to find that out. Yeah. And if we’re holding space for ourselves and we have our our supports, they’re going to do the same. So, what are you doing? Who are your people as professionals? Can you look at yourself every day in the morning? Meet yourself where you’re at. Check in with yourself and go out there and help people help themselves. And make sure that you also give yourself some of that, too. Right? Filling your cup. We say all these things and they’re very cliche, but get underneath the concept of it, please. If you’re going to do the work, if you want to do the superficial [ ] go ahead, do that. But that’s not where I came from. Get underneath it and work through it. And as we continue to work through it, you’ll start to see things get better for us. And you’ll also see the changes in your coaching or your therapy or whatever you’re doing because you’re getting underneath the real things that need worked through. We can’t be afraid to do those things in this day and age. You got to figure out who we are and give yourself grace while you do it. Yeah, absolutely. Love that. It It’s interesting because I used to say this thing when I did um in my first five years of recovery, I’d be like, if I could take a snapshot of my life and tell you it was going to be your life, you would do it anyway. But really, really like I’m 40 now. Uhhuh. You know, and I’ve been at this a little while and you’ve been at this a little while and there’s this thing happening. There’s this healing. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And and I I never for the life of me thought that was possible. Oh. And it’s this constant evolution of one day at a time, but it’s this getting underneath and doing this really, really deep and entrenched and sustainable work that elevates a human in the human experience and the people that are connected with that experience in this really powerful way. It drops you to your knees. And the space that drop I would say the space that drops me to my knees was the five years. I remember it cuz you and I were on and I remember these these voices, you know, they come to me and it’s like you don’t want to miss this part, right? But there’s this space now for me. I I did a um a talk. It was called when we heal, we rise. Uh repairing your legacy of for generations to come. Huh? And I, oh my god, I’m I’m sitting in there and it came to me, this this whole thing came to me probably 3 days before because, you know, the person said, “Can you go in and just speak about legacy?” And and I said, “Yeah, you know, you’re okay giving me three days.” And I was sitting there with my dad and h I got crazy emotional and I was like, “Dad, do you realize how much
I am healing?” And then he broke he broke down. He said, “Sparks, do you realize how much I am healing?” M that’s dad right there. We hit that space together and we’re doing this energy work together and I’m like I have so much gratitude for moments like this. The moment of healing the walls being taken off of your your emotional centers, those chakras, right? we have and being able to realize like this is me and I’m not going anywhere. And I think the space is like you really start to feel yourself in this that whole exceptional piece, right? And then above it where you’re rising and raising your vibration and when you raise that vibration, you feel this amplifying in you that says we are really just getting started. And every time you keep going, it just keeps rearing up that way. And I think there’s a space for me that’s like I can feel that. And when you feel that, you’re like, I don’t know where this is taking me, but I know I’d rather be here anytime, any day to see where it’s going. And I can feel it evolving. And there’s those nerves and there’s those feelings that are going on. And then in my mind, I have Don Gillum say, “Don’t forget your why.” And then yesterday, I get a complete text from someone I barely know that says, “Absolutely. Thank you for bringing them home. Let’s [ ] go.” Bing, bang, boom. Let’s go. 2026, here we come. 2026, here we come. And so forth, you know? So when you feel that and you feel the universe or whatever you believe in higher power working with you, you know, it’s you just got to let it work with you and you got to let yourself work and you just got to believe. And I’m not going to say believe, you know, in believe there’s the word lie. Yeah. But you know what? You just got to know you just got to know that it is written. Yeah. And you can’t second guess it. You just got to go. I love that. Don’t get in the way of it. Don’t get in the way of the things that happen. But I’ll tell you, coming into this seven years, real easy to get in your way because you’re like, “Wait a minute. This is this is happening. Are we sure we What do you mean? You guys are all ready?” Yeah. People are here. Dang. So, we’re going to do this. Yeah. Got new tires, windshield. I guess I’m a driver. Yeah, we we are. You What? Do you have a double car in the back? Okay. So, we did break down. We are coming extra prepared. and I’m looking at you and you’re like, I’m in the next car next to you. Spons and it really was that was it was it was gosh, it’s always so nice connecting with you. It really was just so cool just to like wrap it all up being at the symposium. I’m introducing somebody and I can’t come to your talk, but it’s literally right right next door. Yeah. But then they they had to move you and all the stuff and it just is um it is such a gift. And I know I say it all the time, but just to watch you move and groove. Oh my god. Uh the the place So I didn’t I didn’t know they had to move move me and I didn’t know any of that, right? And so I’m in the space I’m supposed to be in and the lady’s like, “Oh yeah, sparkle.” And I was like, “Yeah.” She’s like, “Yeah, we had to move your room.” And I was like, “Was it too hot or what? Is everything okay? We’re good.” She goes, “We don’t have enough seating.” Perfect. Oh my gosh. So, right before I’m going getting ready to go on, I look over at Kayla and I’m like and she’s like, “What?” I was like, “There’s going to be a lot of people here and I’m so grateful.” Yeah. And she said, “Well, could you hold it till you get up there cuz we know you’re going to shed some tears. We know Sparkle. Just make sure you put your hands down when you get up there, then go.” I was I mean, and so then I was like, “Okay, well, are we ready?” So we had our little 50 photo folders, but there was about a hundred people in there. So, so to me, I was like, “Okay, we had a little PowerPoint going and I mean the whole experience because it was a dream come true for me. I never thought I’d be speaking at a symposium or doing anything.” And I just remember uh really just having the nerves, but like it was like a lock in, you know, when you just snap in, right? Well, you came in. I know my aunt my aunt Bonita came in. She was sitting in the front with her number one fan. Yeah. You know, but she didn’t have one of those big head things, one of the big the big and then I also, you know, Tammy Romano came up and then I said, “Okay, let’s [ ] go.” And then I just know I hit the ground running. You know, you just hit the ground running. You know, you have that love in the space. You know where you’re at and you know what you’re feeling and what you’re talking about. And it’s just one of those experiences afterwards I had to sit there and I just all I could do was just say this is this is one of the most amazing experiences. Mhm. I wouldn’t change it for the world. I was there with people I love, people who love me. M and uh there wasn’t anything else I could think of whether whether it would been late, we started late or we didn’t. The looks on their faces, it was so beautiful. And I said this, I’ll do it again and again and again. And I could see them. They rushed to the front, you know, afterwards. And it was it was just a beautiful experience. And being able to hear them tell me their stories. And there was a lot of past coaches in there as well and how great they were doing and the different companies they were with and then being able to see some great companies out there. Um, you know, I it it just was it was a wonderful experience, you know, and I don’t think enough of us, you and I talked about it, don’t think enough of us take the time to sit in the happiness. Mhm. I love that you said that cuz we had a conversation a few weeks ago and I was talking about this, but I was telling Sparkle, so there’s these moments like we, you know, I start my career, I’m 22 years old, you’re young, you’re early in recovery, you’re like, who do I call? I said, here’s a card. Try and text them or whatever, you know, see what they got going on. And you build and you build and you fight and you’re passionate and you connect and you lose and you grieve and you fight and you’re more passionate and then there’s this moment where if you allow yourself to be present. Yep. It’s one of those aha moments to look there and just say and we were setting up the booth. I was sitting with Cass and I was thinking of you and I was like, “We made it.” Yeah. It’s right here. You and sitting in there and you you look up your PowerPoints up on the thing and you’re like, I wrote those right. We That was exact that was exactly I was like, “Oh, we doing this.” And then, you know, those are full sentences. Then it remind me of like playing ball, you know, and like the tip the tip off and you know and I and then I was like, man, I never realized how much adrenaline I would have. You’re the point guard doing this as a point guard. We’re on the thing and I’m giving people the mic and move. I mean, you would have thought you would have thought that it was like I had just done it forever. And then that was another space where I was like, this growth is wild. like I watched, you know, a lot of it. It was recorded. Okay. I I recommend whenever you’re talking, whenever you’re doing something, please listen to yourself. It actually scared me because I happened to be hearing it in my ears, you know? I was just kind of listening to something and all of a sudden I was like, “Wait, this sounds like me. It’s violent.” I was like, “This this is good shit.” Then I was like, “Oh, wait. This is this is me.” And so I looked at the video and I was like, “Oh my god.” You know, just that feeling that’s like, “Where did you go, Miss Lindsay?” Cuz I went somewhere, Chris, I don’t know where I went. Damn, that was good. I came back and I said, “Okay.” And I had a lady who said, “So, are we just going on break and we’re coming back?” This all day. This is all day back. Like, no, it’s over. I said, “It’s over.” But when you’re connected with your passion and you’re in alignment with that like that healing that that that spot that spot that you get in it’s like getting in like a jet boat, you know, and boom and this thing jumps waves, you know, like you said this thing jumps w
that’s exactly how I felt. I came back and Kayla said, “You okay?” I said, “Damn, girl. I I think I was I just got to go lay down. I think I was flying. This is This is the bomb. Let’s go. life, man. Let’s go. Let’s go. Just like, man, that feels really good. It was. And then afterwards, the responses and being able to communicate, you know, people who you don’t even realize how many people actually know who you are. And I’m forever grateful for that. Hearing people say, “Oh, we know who you are. Hey, Sparkle. How you doing?” And just that feeling of love. I was like, “This is what it is. This is what it’s about.” out and then watching different coaches who have now implemented themselves and become ops managers for a lot of these companies and stuff. This is where it’s at. And I I think that’s the space like now push and tread move that forward. We got to move the needle forward. So we see more people advancing and feeling this. There’s no way people should not around the world feel this. This is a great space to be in. And it’s a space to be in in the now. Yep. And if we feel this [ ] and if we’re here for it, we can change this thing overnight. Yes. Overnight. Change this thing overnight. Just overnight. So, it’s it’s this has been like I’m not even going to say that it’s a dream come true. I want to say that it’s just I’m so happy to find find me again. Yeah. To find the new me again. And also I just find new circles of people and and old circles of people that have came around and have grown forward. Um and just being able to see things in a different light. You know, just I always say this, use me, Lord, as a vessel. Yeah. God, use me. Use us both. Use us. The whole point is to stretch forward and watch people find their light and uh you know go to the next person and that is enough. Yeah. You know people say you know we talked about it um I’m not we’re not enough or we think that space but what is enough right? When is enough enough? And if you have and have found or are working to find your happiness from within, you have more than enough. So go seek to find that first. You know, seek to find that first. I love that. The moment is enough. Well, it’s uh always just an incredible experience connecting with you. I think this is presence, Chris. Um you know, I’m nervous about this next step. Mhm. I’m okay with, you know, saying how I truly feel cuz if I I’d just be pretending and [ ] So that doesn’t make much sense. But the point I don’t believe in pretending. Yeah. I do believe in uh divine timing. Um and I’m going to keep listening to, you know, my higher power and my guides and all of that. They said build it, they will come. And so here we are. Coach’s corner. um right around the corner. Right. Right around the corner. Um we’re getting ready to roll it out. Membership based um for those that are ready to take their life to the next level along with learning to coach and have community. Um live events, all of the above. Um you know, 500 hours of hands-on experience support for coaches to work towards their CPFS and or their national certifications. and the 25 hours of supervision to support. So, a lot of the coaches um that I have right now, they’ve been going through the courses, but they need something more. Um and I want to make sure they have that platform to be able to get more, get their hours, and be in a full-blown university that truly does not let them go, you know? So, um do I know where it’s going? Hell no. But it’s that’s that’s it, though. But it’s it’s just right here, right now. Yeah. And that’s what’s up. Yeah. But I keep saying this. What I was doing two years ago was like, “Yeah, you know, when it comes and when it comes and when the coach’s corner starts.” And then uh my coach is like, “Yes, so we’re going to nip that in the butt.” He’s like, “Cuz it’s here.” Yep. He’s like, “You’ve been doing it all along.” Mhm. He’s like, “Now you need to put it into existence. Let’s name this thing.” So, we’re gonna keep naming it and keep naming it. I love that. All y’all name it. You know, it’s coming out. Let’s go. Purchase. We’re going to bring her on here in about six weeks and be like, “Hey, how’s that going? Hey, we better be launched and ready to go.” As you guys hear, my mentor right now. So, you got that going? Yep. We’ll be on next week. All right. So, how’s it going? End of March. It is. He’s always giving these dates, by the way. Right. It’s I was talking to someone the other day. They were telling me, “Yeah, so I think in 90 days I’m going to be able to do all that for my mental health.” And I said, “Well, we so 30.” Yeah. So 30 days. We’re good. He’s like this. So you’re launching it tomorrow, right? I’m like, “Okay, see Chris.” And then, you know, he goes into you go into the the lunatic thing as an entrepreneur. And I’m like, “Well, he’s kind of right. Let me call him next week and tell him what I got going on.” So, but either way, I’m I’m excited to know you excited for what’s to come in 2026 today and moving forward. um grateful to have you on the show. We’re going to have you back here in the next 90 days or so to talk about the coach’s corner. Okay. And give us all get give us all a proper update. See how things are going. See how that cement is foundationalizing. But again, just an absolute pleasure to know you be connected with the sparks. Thank you so much. Love you so much. Love you too. Let’s go. Let’s go. Until next time, my beautiful people. Stay breezy. Peace. I love you. Yeah. Let’s go. I love you.
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Episode 158Listen First, Solve Later – The Strength You’re Not Training with Dr. WadeWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/Z9X3Kzp4T6EListen NowDescriptionIn this episode of Finding Peaks, Chris reconnects with Dr. Christian Wade, owner of Concierge Wellness, for a powerful conversation on growth, grounding, and what it really means to live with intention. Together, they dive into the importance of listening before solving, the role of community in building accountability, and how true greatness comes from selfless acceptance. Dr. Wade also shares personal and professional updates, along with insights on the mental and physical benefits of weightlifting and staying grounded in a fast-moving world. Whether you’re focused on personal growth, leadership, or building stronger connections, this episode is packed with practical wisdom and perspective to help you reach your next peak.

Talking Points1. Introduction to the Show 2. Catching up with Dr. Wade 3. Dr. Wade and Peaks 4. The importance of grounding 5. Listen first, solve later 6. Greatness is selfless acceptance 7. Business and personal updates for Dr. Wade 8. Community as a resource 9. Accountability through community 10. The benefits of weight lifting 11. conciergewellnessandpt.com 12. Final thoughts Quotes

“We need less barriers to exercise. I believe everybody knows that exercise is generally beneficial; it is one of the most impactful tools that we have” – Dr. Christian Wade

Episode Transcripts

Episode -158- Transcriptsyou know, each week before I even come into Peak specifically, it’s like I pray about, you know, just let me connect with these people. Like, let me let me be a light in their life today because I know they’re in a lot of darkness. Yeah. And it’s been it’s been amazing. I think it’s really really important. First thing is to ensure that the individual is connected with and regulated before we do anything. Yeah, we need less barriers to exercise. It’s like everybody I think everybody knows that exercise is generally beneficial, right? Um it’s one of the most impactful tools that we have. I mean people telling me it’s been life-changing in one session. I mean that’s that’s magical.
Hey everybody and welcome to another exciting, amazing and enthusiastic episode of Finding Peaks. This is our second recording in our new studio and I have to mention right off the bat. Look at let’s go, baby. We got it right over the left shoulder. I am feeling the energy this morning. So grateful to be joined by my great friend, colleague, and Peaks Recovery Connector, Dr. Christian Wade. Thanks for coming on the show, sir. Yes, sir. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. So grateful to have you. Um, we had Christian on what was about 6 months ago? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. He was on six months ago and you hadn’t been working at peaks at all by then, right? Do my thing. So over the last four to five months, right? Yeah. October. Yep. Five months. Over the last four to Yeah. Over the last five months, Dr. Wade has come on campus. It has been a huge addition to what we do at Peaks Recovery from a holistic and clinical perspective. He comes on Tuesdays for 3 to four hours, meets with guests. What I always tell guests is, you know, I I often find myself saying physical therapy sometimes, and I couldn’t be more misguided. Um, I think Dr. Wade steps into any situation, meets people where they’re at. Um, you know, I say from like a physical perspective, it’s like dry needling, cupping, soft tissue, deep tissue, chiropractic work adjustments, mobility, nutrition, strength training, you name it. Just a path in a way and a trusted and connected way uh to your holistic health. So so grateful to have you on. You’ve already made a tremendous impact at Peaks. Um what has it been like for you being on campus now that you’ve heard so much about it? You’ve been on the podcast. You’ve been meeting with me for a couple years. What is that integration been like coming on site and kind of finding your groove? Yeah. I mean it’s been incredible. It’s an interesting journey. I didn’t really know what I was hopping into. Um but it gives me a lot more insight on what’s going on at Peaks. Uh the care that you guys are providing. Everyone speaks so highly of y’all and the team and how they feel like this, you know, this facility is way different than anything they’ve ever experienced. They’re getting like real healing. Um I And then me just hopping in, it’s been really neat to be part of the journey. You know, they’re all dealing with some kind of mental health. Um and you know, whether it’s purely suicidal ideations or maybe drug addiction or alcohol, whatever, they’re there for that type of healing and recovery. And it’s been nice for me to hop in and kind of approach to be a bystander and kind of be a third party like, “Hey, I’m just here for you for this hour. Let’s just try to get you feeling better. Let’s calm down the nervous system.” Um, it’s been really incredible to see the changes we’ve had in one session. And it’s nothing it’s nothing like I’ve experienced in the clinic setting. Um, and kind of like you mentioned, like, yeah, it’s technically some physical therapy, but it’s more than that. It’s wellness. And I think in your standard physical therapy approach or your standard physical therapy clinic, these people would not be successful. Um, they would not be successful with the current state they’re in, the process they’re going through, being uprooted from home, etc., etc., and being put in like an outpatient facility where it’s like, hey, let’s get on the bike. Let’s get warm. Let’s get your heart rate. Hey, let’s go do some exercise. And like you might push into some pain, discomfort, things like that. These people are hurting. You know, I’m not looking to to push into certain things like that. You know, we’re always looking always want to get to some kind of movement or load in general, but I’m just there to try to open up someone’s opportunity to talk to them and like speak on the wellness side and you know, what’d you have for breakfast this morning? Like, how much are you sleeping? Can we talk about moving a little bit more today? But yeah, I’ve had some incredible experiences just in five months of I mean, people telling me it’s been life-changing in one session. I mean, that’s that’s magical. and and it speaks to, you know, I think the place that they’re in, like it speaks to peaks and the environment that y’all are creating. I’m just happy to be a piece of that puzzle. Yeah, man. That that’s really cool. You don’t even think about that when when you first start, you know, you think we’re coming in, we got the table, we’re doing this PT thing. Um, but this really unique opportunity and I think you said it best like yeah these people need holistic physical therapy and that’s not something that their insurance unfortunately covers. Uh, nor would they be able to walk in a clinic from a mental health perspective and receive this benefit. It would just be too much for them. It’s too sterile. It’s not connected. You only see the practitioner for 15 20 minutes. You know, they’d walk right out of there. And so you’re offering a resource I I in my opinion a life-changing and a life-saving resource that otherwise isn’t offered in our current medical model in our current health care system. Um and that’s that’s really unique and really really cool and maybe something of which I didn’t even identify when we brought you on 5 months ago. Mhm. But been a huge add-on. I was um you know we do uh surveys every week. I didn’t know that. Yeah. So people come in, we do a survey within the first 24 to 48 hours. Hey, how’s the onboarding experience? How’s everything going? You know, real time feedback. We aggregate the data. We have a director meeting on Thursday afternoon. We compile the data and graph it out and chart it out and look for like rhymes and reasons just for an opportunity to improve. And so we have discharge surveys as well. So they go through each week and they talk about it and get to the end. And we just had a guest discharge last week who I believe in our clinical model more than anything. We have a great clinical team, solid medical department, but out of everything that she went through in 30 days at Peaks Recovery, she said that the time she had to meet with you was the most impactful. Wow. I mean, that’s a that’s a wild thing. You know, this is the person I believe that you’re not even necessarily doing much more than calming down the reg the nervous system. Yeah. You know, connecting her with some regulation tools, just sitting in the space. And I think that’s hard sometimes for people to do, especially my experience and in our current health care system is people don’t do that. they don’t build the trust and then they can’t walk with and um see the change. Sure. You know, so I know who you’re talking about. Yeah. Yeah. We had I think we had two sessions. Yeah. Yeah. Which is another like you said, I’m creating the space, you know, and I may see a client once, I might see them six times. I never really know. Um and so I think as a in my PT brain, you know, I have some sort of agenda. You know, I want to achieve X. I want to get them to this goal. Um, you know, obviously matching with what they want, but I’ve had to kind of step back and slow down. It’s like, let’s just focus on one hour at a time. How can I meet you where you are today? You know, and some of the clients have already have outpatient appointments. They’re going to see cardio cardiologist or someone offsite. Those probably aren’t super enjoyable, you know, whereas I can be on site and it’s like, hey, just step in this room. Let’s chat. Let’s calm some stuff down. Let’s get you feeling better. and hope that that carries through better sleep, better movement throughout the week. And um we know there’s such a strong tie with mental and physical health. So um yeah, with that individual, if I’m thinking of the same one, I mean comes in and I think even on the intake was all about like learning how to calm her nervous system, getting the heart rate down, how to do that on her own. Uh many ways. And so we did she went from a resting heart rate at 112 to 70, you know, within breathing, right? So we did some diaphragmatic breathing, some calming stuff and yeah, it was incredible. That’s so cool. Some interesting um reports came out of that session too for sure. Yeah, we have all these medicines and all these things you can buy and all these guns and tools and massages and you know like I found myself in the morning after my training session literally laying in the grass in my underwear just like grounding to the earth getting some sunshine on my face cuz it was like you know that it’s going to be 60° today. I love what you talk about with that guest because um the admissions team several years ago adopted a motto and I’ve said it before on finding peaks. It’s listen first solve later. Like just like you as a doctor and you know in and out of clinics and your private practice and doing what you do, we all have these like tremendous tasks list. We have acknowledgements we need to get signed. And we have waivers and we have these things and I need to assess and I got 26 pieces of paper I need you to sign in 14 minutes right when you get here cuz I got to get you over to nursing then you got to go to this and sketchy and psychi and something I’ve really been do indoctrinating the team with lately is this listen first solve later especially when you’re dealing with acute mental health symptoms or even acute uh substance use symptoms or substance use withdrawal symptoms or postacute withdrawal symptoms. I think it’s really really important. First thing is to ensure that the individual is connected with and regulated before we do anything. Yeah. Cuz you can just get lost in the sauce. People like, you know, they’re coming in tons of anxiety. It’s like, so now in the intake process, I’m really preaching everybody, hey, all the directors, let’s come out and meet this individual. It’s all about listen first, solve later. We got BHTs doing the intake. We’ve redone the intake room. It’s got a water feature. That’s what I thought about the water feature. It’s got a water feature. It’s very calming. There’s two couches. There’s no computer, no desk. It’s awesome. And we book an hour for something that should take 15 minutes. And I’m like, let’s just let’s just chill out here, man. Yeah. How you doing? Like, you like dogs? I like dogs. He’s just very much like connecting, building trust, and then we get on with it. Same thing with the nursing assessment. It’s like listen first, solve later. And so it’s interesting you just being at peaks. It just shows that like you have this side to be in in your repertoire for behavioral health to really sit regulate and then work with people. Mhm. Um which is rare and unfounded but it’s it’s like instantly a part of our culture which is so cool. Yeah. Yeah. It’s something I’ve didn’t really know but having my own practice it’s something I’ve gotten consistent feedback with was that you know I was thorough but that I listened. You know, in our traditional medical model, everything is so overly medical and and unnecessarily medicalized that it’s hopping jumping through all the red tape. It’s all fast. You know, we got to get to the next person. I mean, last time you went to primary care, you can’t tell me you weren’t rushed out of there, right? Cuz I got three more right behind you. So, um it’s just a different experience. And I love being able to give the person the time of day. You know, I’m here, you know, time is valuable. You’re paying for my time. and I’m just here to listen and facilitate healing and however I can. Um, yeah, it’s been powerful in my own practice and then over at Peaks. Yeah. And certainly some interesting experiences. Yeah. I had a guy I’m thinking about it. It was maybe it was Monday or Friday comes running up. Chris, am I the oldest person to ever come here? And I’m like, I don’t think so, man. I was like, I’ve done CrossFit with someone who was 80 years old before. And I tried to help her and she told me, “Get the [ ] out of here.” I was like, she was the greatest, man. But I was trying to I was like, “Yeah, you’re working out with me today.” She’s like, “No, I’m not, man. I’m doing the whole thing.” And I was talking to this guest and he was like, “I’m He’s like, I’m 82.” I was like, “No way, man. You look 40.” You know, he looks great. But he was raving about your services, too. He’s a local guy here. And yeah, that guy said, “I think I saw him technically once. We had a quick session, then we did a full session. He said, “That’s the that’s the best physical therapy I’ve ever experienced.” And I was like, “Yeah, man.” First of all, I think of that sounds great. You know, it means that I’m I’m doing what I want to be doing. But then I’m like, that also kind of sucks. Like why why isn’t other people Why aren’t other people doing that? You know, what are your other experiences? I’ll be like you don’t these are people that don’t have like resources. You know what I mean? Like they’re they’re trying to get the best things. Yeah. And I’m sure he’s been a PT many times by 82, right? Um yeah, it’s really interesting to be in this space and just try to make a powerful impact. And you know, something that I’ve really um taken on recently getting diving into more more of my faith. And I think, you know, each week before I even come into Peak specifically, it’s like I pray about, you know, just let me connect with these people like let me let me be a light in their life today because I know they’re in a lot of darkness. Yeah. And it’s been it’s been amazing. Yeah, man. I’ve been taking an opportunity to do that in the morning, too. Just really praying for like favor for these people. Yeah. Because when you learn when you when you sit with humans within a human experience with a large story, you begin to learn that a lot of people suffer in very very deep ways and have been impacted by that suffering and it’s informing their lives and they don’t want to be suffering. No. you know, they want a way out, but at every turn, because of our medical model and the nonsense that people walk through, it’s like clinic to clinic to clinic to clinic to verification to verification to verification. We see so many people that have been to 10, 15 programs and they’re like, geez, like it’s not that I haven’t been trying. Yeah. You know, so um that’s something really really cool I think that we offer and that we do is even with the access to care that we’ve created through in network contracting. Like I was walking someone around on a tour the other day and I’m like going through the thing and I’m like this is where we do PT and this volleyball and this is disc golf and they were like my insurance pay for all of this. I was like no. Yeah. Uh we we we care deeply. Um a lot of the things I mentioned your insurance doesn’t pay for. Um but if it can be an add-on and a benefit to your care and create a better outcome and quality of life for you and the people you care about. For sure. like we feel like it’s valuable for you. Yeah. You know, same with your stuff. You know, there are some folks that go ahead and pay for that on the front end, but then other people don’t. And then I sit with them and I’m like, you could benefit from this. Let me give you this. Mhm. And that first person I talked about with the survey was the exact the exact thing. Yeah. And so it was a wildly impactful. Yeah. So for me, that’s everything. Yeah. Like you said, huge value add-on to the whole facility in general. She’s raving about it, right? Y yeah, I think that’s, you know, we’re in such a day and age of reviews online and Google and it’s it is it’s important. Mhm. Um, you know, they matter a lot, but I’ve found over the years that the best business development people are the guests that have come through your care, the people you’ve had the opportunity to touch, the families that have been impacted. I mean, I’ve changed my number a couple times since I’ve been out here and it’s like three, four people a month. I’m just like, Aaron, talk to this person, this person. We’re just the web is long now. If it’s 2500 clients that have came through the program, we’ll give each one of them a plus two. And that’s probably being conservative, you know. So now we’re talking almost 10,000 people impacted whose families are impacted. So what you’re doing today matters not only today, but long term in this world in a pretty cool way. And um and maybe I’ve talked about it with you, but I read this book. It’s called um greatness. Okay. Have I ever told you about it? I don’t know. Okay. So it’s a sports psychologist Dr. Cook, Dr. David Cook, PhD. Don’t quote me on that. But the title of the book is greatness, right? I think I’ve said this on the podcast before, but I’ll say it again because I think it’s valuable. Um, so he’s a sports psychologist. Uh, 45 years, worked with people like Tim Duncan, a bunch of, um, PGA tour winners, golfers, tennis players, hockey players. And he he begins to work with them like when they’re in these huge slumps of their career. They’re supposed to be at these spots. And, you know, they’re not excelling the way they’re supposed to. And one of the first stories in the book is about Tim Duncan and how he’s in this slump and da da works with Dr. Cook. And then they go on and he pulls out of the free throw slump, goes on to win how many other games? one’s, you know, five, six titles, all these things. But he goes on to say like towards the middle of the book, he’s like, you know, well, all these people I’ve worked with, these doctors, these lawyers, these athletes, these these high affluent people that are chasing these prizes and these big things that are really difficult to do. Um, getting there never provided a level of happiness that they ever thought, right? It’s like becoming a doctor. It’s like I’m sure you’d be like it was really nice but like what I do now fills me up more than like the certificate did even though I thought when I got that thing I be like oh god like you know so same same kind of thing. So he’s working with all these people and you know they’re getting these awards and these medals and they’re just like six out of 10 quality of life. They’re like what is it? you know, because we’re at the highest degree of our profession and we’re we’re at the top. But that old saying that it’s lonely at the top and I don’t know if that’s true, but what he goes on to say and his hypothesis is is that greatness is defined as selfless exceptionalism. So like you don’t have to do the things you do. You could just do all the mechanical stuff, physical. I’m sure it would be awesome. So that’s what I sold on the front end. I didn’t know you’re going to do all the other cool stuff that really matters. Um, like you could do all of that, but you you do the other stuff. And so what he says is is greatness is defined as selfless exceptionalism. It’s what we do with our God-given ability to make the world around us better. And so, yeah, all that other stuff is nice, but when we start creating real impact in the world, you know, it’s like one person I talk to at a time that tells me they had a good day at Peaks, and I’m like, there’s another year. like I’ll just keep driving for you because I I can see so clearly and when I go to sleep at night and when I talk to God in the morning, I know this path and this process is blessed because of what we’re doing and how we’re doing it. Yeah. You know what I’m saying? Yeah. So, I feel really good about that. And I also feel really good about having like-minded professionals around us that have the business in mind and the guest in mind and balance those things really, really well. You know, tough to do sometimes, for sure. you know. So, um, what do you what else you got going on in the, uh, community? It seems like you’re real busy with Concierge Wellness. You’re doing the CrossFit stuff. We got You’re at a couple different places, right? Yeah. So, updates are, you know, we started in the home gym. I was doing mobile stuff. That’s kind of how I met you. Uh, I backed off some of the mobile stuff. I still see one or one client in particular that’s kind of a long-term client. Um, and I got my own space. So, I have a I work inside of a gym called Momentum Training Center. It’s off Guard the Gods of Nevada. So, just south of Trader Joe’s area. Nice. So, it’s a private gym for personal training, one-on-one personal training. There’s only two trainers in there. And me and another colleague use that room. It’s a treatment room. Okay. Uh, similar size of this and we got a couple tables in there and that’s where I’m doing my practice now. Okay. So, I’m mostly there. I’ll see a few people at a CrossFit in my house because it’s so close to the gym. Okay. So, evenings and weekends. But yeah, we’ve we’ve really cranked up in the in the clinic and um partnering with these trainers, you know, trying to be a resource for them. We’re doing some more, you know, like lunch and learns and continue education on site. Um and then yeah, diving in the CrossFit space. So, I’ve been treating weightlifters and crossfitters for a couple years now, but now I’m joining that that CrossFit niche, right? And so, I’m I’m a member. I’m at I’m at the gym 3 to 5 days a week with those people and I get to see the volume and the things that they’re going through so I can better, you know, serve them in the rehab process or whatever they’re dealing with. So, it’s been a lot of fun. Um, I think there’s a lot a lot of negative connotations or or negative assumptions growing up and then going through PT school about CrossFit and how it’s dangerous and all these things. Um, it’s just another mode of exercise and that, you know, it’s not it’s not harmful if you if you’re coached right at it. M um it’s actually really beneficial and I think the intensity in the community is what’s most powerful. Yeah. So, it’s been a lot of fun getting in there and working out hard. Yeah. It’s interesting you say that. You know, we’re often times trying to tie people into community as a resource. Yes. You know, and it’s such a valuable resource. In fact, I’ve been quoted as saying it a million times like it may be the single greatest resource. Um so, I love getting people involved in that. We have uh Dan down at the boxing gym that I just met him Tuesday. Yeah. I want to go check him out. Yeah, man. It’s free. He brought he invited me to the High Rocks he was doing this morning, but I couldn’t make it. But uh I told my I think every Tuesday Thursday he’s okay. Yeah. Yeah. He seems like a great dude. I told him I was going to go do it after I was done training for the Albuquerque Open. But maybe when I get back from Florida. Okay. Seems fun. He has a couple guests down there and he invites them all down there, dude. And I’ve even sent people from my jiu-jitsu gym down to him and they go down there like every Saturday training or do boxing. They do a like an open gym boxing class on it’s either Saturday or Sunday morning. It’s all free. It’s all free. No memberships or anything? Nothing. Wow. Yeah. He does a ministry. It’s his bridge. Yeah. Cuz it’s his nonprofit. The bridge or whatever. So it’s his bridge boxing thing. Okay. So all the bridge events, you can go on their website. All the bridge events are free. Wow. And then Adam Mhill with Unbreakable Ministries. Dude, you got to know all those guys. Really good people. Okay, Adam Vho with Unbreakable Ministries has a huge He’s I think he’s got a church gym, the whole thing. But you have to pay to go to that one, but he’s got wrestling, jiu-jitsu, Mu Thai, boxing, probably some other [ ] too, like Kra McGra. I mean, they’re all a bunch of fighters down there, but big passionate like disciple driven kind of people and they have a good message and they’re doing good, really good things. Yeah. Yeah. And they’ve come from just crazy spots. Yeah, I bet. Yeah. Yeah. The community piece is huge. You know, I think we need less barriers to exercise. Like everybody I think everybody knows that exercise is generally beneficial, right? Um it’s one of the most impactful tools that we have that’s non-farmaceutical. Um arguably more impactful than most pharmaceuticals, but that’s a different uh different soap box to be on. Um, but just the community drive, you know, being in CrossFit, being at, you know, Class Pass or being in a different community, like group fitness is way more beneficial. And they’ve done studies on this. People who are in group fitness are way more accountable. They’re more consistent running clubs. Yeah. You know, um, it is so hard. People see me like, oh, it must be easy. Like, it’s so hard to wake up on your own like for anybody Yeah. who’s not possessed like you know people like but it’s like uh it’s very hard to do that man. I remember being like 5 10 years ago being like hey man you’re going to come work out you’re going to miss the workout I’m going inside you know now I’m like dude I’m starting to work out without you. Yeah you or I just don’t work out with people. Yeah. But it’s so much better. You’re right. Um it’s interesting you say that. So there are studies that show that the group fitness probably from a mental health perspective like uh I bet they haven’t even done a study on it but like negative self-t talk um self-image cuz often times these like group fitnesses too are like so encouraging. Oh yeah, you know. Yeah. I don’t know where it where it’s like everywhere but I know for me it’s it’s CrossFit and Demick and Fountain. And I mean just a simple fist pump, dude. like we’re all grinding through the same workout. Might scale it a little bit different, but we’re all pushing ourselves a little harder and the people around us are cheering us on and it’s like, “Hey man, good workout.” Like, “Glad you showed up today.” That’s powerful. If you’re in the gym doing it by yourself, unless you’re as disciplined as you, like a lot of people aren’t, they’re not as excited, right? But if I know I’m going to show up, I’m going to get some guidance through the workout, some coaching, uh we’re going to get some fist bumps, we’re going to be excited about it, the day is way better. Yeah. And people are expecting me to be there, you know, eventually they’re expecting you to be there, right? Right. It’s like, “Hey, dude. It’s Tuesday, bro. I missed you. Where were you?” Yeah. Now it’s like this accountability thing, but it’s not like, “Hey, missed your [ __ ] workout.” It’s like, “Hey, dude.” Like, we work out together. It’s what we do. Like, it’s our thing. Yeah. I texted someone yesterday. I said, “Hey, we missed you at the at the 8:15 class. Hope everything’s going all right.” You know, like trying to keep That’s so huge. Yeah. Yeah. I remember when I was 22 years old and I’d miss like an AA meeting, which I swear, dude, in like 5 years, I probably miss like three vacations and everything. Mhm. And they would just be like, “Hey, man. Where you at? You all right?” I’m like, “Huh?” People care. Yeah. You know, so that community thing is so freaking powerful. Yeah. And it’s interesting, too. That’s why I think people run faster in races. Not only are they like going full clip, they got different shoes on, but it’s a community thing. Yeah. You’re not out training by yourself. Like you have these endorphins firing. Maybe I don’t know the scientific approach behind it, but I always from like my best training run like I’ll use Garden of the Gods for example. My best training run per mile for the 10 mile loop and Garden of the Gods back in 2023 was probably 7:15 7:20 and that race day was like 6:35. Wow. Yeah. Cuz I’m just like people and like animals and nature and I’m just like blow through a mountain right now. This is incredible. People are cheering playing bag pipes. Yeah, that race is a good race. It’s a good one, man. I did a booth there. I don’t have to do it anymore because it was like this whole thing. I told you about it. You were Were you seen You weren’t seeing me when I was doing I wasn’t seeing you at that one, but I was It might have been 23. I was I was there at the finish line with the booth working on people. Yeah, I think that’s when I did that 100 mile race with Andrew alumni of Peaks. It’s how we met Dr. Wade. So, Andrew went through the program back in 2016, so 10 years ago, and now he’s an ultra marathon runner. And one of his first 100 mile races, he wanted to come back to Colorado Springs and do like this. He says, “Yeah, this is a good story.” So he wanted to come back to Colorado Springs, do this race, but he lived at sea level in New York. Yeah. So he came out here, whatever. So he’s like, “Yeah, you’re going to run the last 20 miles with me.” I’m like, “Bet, dude, this will be this will be spiritual, bro.” Yeah. And um I go meet him at the aid station at like 42 miles up on one of these mountains over here. And he’s like, “Man, this altitude is really good to me.” I’m like, “You think?” Yeah. He’s like probably, you know, a beach yesterday and you’re literally sending it through the mountains, but he figured it out and um but at the end of it, Dr. Wade had a booth and Andrew laid down. I think he even fell asleep like he fell asleep getting dry needles. Getting dry needle. Yeah. And from that moment, I snagged your card and that was the that was the whole deal. Yeah. But uh yeah, it’s it’s very cool what can be done in community. Um and I often talk about I even talk about on the front of the show. It’s like the most important thing for me is ensuring that our guests have an opportunity to leave potentially if they choose with a great resource to their right and to their left. Mhm. Both of which can be their friends. Yeah. You know, and I I think that’s so powerful. We had this guy come in. I I toured him a couple weeks ago. Got a lot of anxiety, man. A lot of anxiety. A lot of anxiety. And um he had a lot of anxiety through the tour, but it was all good, man. I could just tell he just just needs some connection. Just connection cools things out. And the first night he’s in the program, he calls his family in the evening. He’s like, “Yeah, I just don’t think this place for me.” Right? In the morning, by 6:00 a.m. we’re all on a thread being like, “Okay, we’re going to show him some love today, but what we’re going to do is we’re going to go get two of our alumni or not two of our more senior guests who are young adults and just go like jam with them. You know what I mean? let them know like, “Hey, this is what we’re doing tonight for games. This is what we’re doing for um you know, bingo. We got bingo later. We’re watching a movie at the house. Um we’re do some basketball outside. Just want you to know like you’re coming with us like you’re with us today.” And boom, dude. I see him at lunch yesterday. And he’s like, “Wow.” Like, “Let’s go.” Oh, dude. Like it’s And some of these people like they get washed up in like these psychiatric hospitals and they’re gone, dude. I’m not telling you. Like gone forever. And we get to be at this moment with people like at 20 years old. Yeah, they had a psychotic break. Okay, sure thing. What would cause the mind to break would be what a curious provider might ask instead of just like here’s a medication. Good luck with your life. Yep. Right. So, I get to see these people and there’s these young people, man. They’re 20. They’re in college. Something happens and the load becomes too heavy and they end up in our program. But often times they come from a hospital and the hospitals are like, I don’t know. And in throughout the first couple weeks of our program, they’re like on the edge of going back to the hospital. Yeah. Because they’re on the edge. But then 30 days in, they make these changes and you can see when people start reconnecting with them, like the the power of this movement and by the time they leave and maybe for them it takes 45 days an inpatient, but you can see so clearly that like the wrong provider. That’s why I’m so bullish on this mental health thing and doing it the right way. Mhm. having the right people wrapped around and informing safety and walking with people is because like otherwise they get chewed up and spit out and readmitted. Chewed up and spit out and readmitted and by the time they’re 25 years old they they have nothing. Yeah. They’re they’re done forever. Which is terrible for them. Real bad. Great for profit. Yeah. Right. But y’all don’t even have that approach. It’s like how can we help them long term? We don’t want them readmitted. That’s not our goal. You know, I’m sure you all track readmission rates and all that. Um, but I love the community that y’all emphasize on campus, just being there a few months. I don’t try to dig a whole lot on people’s stories, but if they talk, I’ll listen, of course, and I’ll ask a little bit of questions, but, you know, I’ve had a lot of good feedback of I’m like, hey, so, you know, when are you heading out? They’re discharging this week. Like, oh, did you did you meet some friends here? Like, yeah, I’m like text I got a text group with like five other girls. Like, we’re super close. you know, they bond through that that trauma and that that healing process and they they build these lifelong connections that they wouldn’t have would have never had if they’re isolated in some kind of ward or whatever it is. Yeah. And then y’all are hiking all the time like getting outside hiking. Last the other day I was walking out, Bobby was going to get food for like a a movie night or something. Like so much going on there. Just trying to have activities in the evening, connect people with community and you know, one of those rare things in an impatient facility like getting people off campus to go get some sun on their face. Yeah. you know, Pulpit Rock, Garden of the Gods. Yesterday they were at Blit Open Space just cruising around, man. Doing their thing. What a wild concept. I know. Get some sunlight. I know. And and I love what you said about the relationship, the friendship thing, cuz I think sometimes, well, at least back when I used to go to treatment, you know, almost 20 years ago, it’s like you’re going to go in and it’s going to be a lot of drug addicts. You know, if you go to the right program and you you all are eating, digesting and eating and digesting the same food and walking with each other in 30 days, it’s not foolish to think that you might develop two of the greatest friends you’ve ever had in your life. Because in 30 days, you’re going to talk about what most people will never find out in their entire life. in 30 days through those conversations, right? Yeah. Yeah. You’re gonna find out through the therapy, through the conversations, through the connection what some people won’t know their entire lives. And that will Yes. difficult to deal with and walk through that will ultimately create an opportunity for a happiness and a quality of life if well directed and guided that most people can’t touch. Yeah. In my opinion. And then you go back to what you’re talking about with, you know, I think when you talk about diet and exercise and sunlight and cold water and jacuzzi and saunas and we talk about it so much because I’ve suffered with the absence of all of those things. And I thought in that time period that it was just what happens is when you get past 25, dude, you know, most people do. And so then recovered out of that and it wasn’t about recovering. I hadn’t drank for years. Yeah. But now in the morning, this thing happens when you get up and sometimes you want to and sometimes you don’t and then you do this other thing and then I always find it when I just put whatever weight in my hand and sometimes I’m like, “Dude, today’s a 75% day. We’re just going low and slow, nice and easy. It’s all cool, man. We’re just doing an hour in here.” But there’s something that happens from a mental health perspective directly correlated with the weight thing. It’s like the third or fourth set in. It doesn’t matter if I’m doing heavy. As long as I’m getting the blood flow going, right away I get this pop and it like sparks in my brain and I feel better. Yeah. Is that just serotonin? Like Yeah, there’s a lot going on. I think the biggest benefit is that increase in blood flow, right? Um, you know, you release stress hormones as you stress your body. Um, and then Yeah. Uh, what’ you mention? Just like just lifting the weights. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and and the reason I bring it up is because I think sometimes people look at others and I used to do this and be like, “Well, I can’t do what he does or I’m not going to do what he does or I don’t have time for that.” It it’s it’s in the simplest of movement moments that I’m inspired from a mental health perspective. It’s not like these, yeah, I love, you know, going on these big things and doing heavy weights and doing jiu-jitsu stuff, but like I’m more often inspired in these simple moments for sure, you know? So just making sure that the template is clear for people that it is like it’s a much easier process to get into um than we set it up to be. Yeah. And I think like most things health and wellness related, you know, it can be feels so complicated, right? We have all these gadgets and all these new diets and all these you got to eat this, you can’t eat that. Just a wild world out there of all this information and misinformation. But it’s it’s really basic. It’s really simple. It’s not easy, but it is truly simple, right? So, we need to eat well and move often and stress management, sleep well, all the things. Um, and I think, you know, I talk to clients about that each session. I try to, you know, not throw it all them all on the first time. So, if I’m seeing them multiple times, you know, I’m dropping these nuggets each time. You know, how’d you sleep last night? Can we get some more water in today? Certain small steps. But I like how your facility facilitates a lot of those opportunities. You’re not forcing anyone to do it. But you walk in the cafeteria, there’s a salad bar all day long ready to go waiting on you if you want it. You know, there’s um yoga classes. I’m sure you’re not billing and getting paid for yoga classes from insurance. They’re not paying for that, unfortunately. Um they’ll pay for the pill, but not the yoga and the movement, right? No breath work. No. But you’re doing it. You got yoga. Now you have, you know, PT, some some private stuff on site. You got all the outings, you know, no one’s paying for that, but y’all are facilitating healing through many outlets. Y and I think it’s really important. Yeah. Yeah. It’s been cool to really bring the team together over the last 10 months and just get the right people in the right positions so that we can do the right work. Um, and Peaks has always built a name for quality of care. Um, but we want to have organizational care. We want to be organized in our approach. We want to be systematized in our approach. You and I have often talked about it, how important it is for guests and professionals to be able to experience that sophistication in that organization. And so looking for opportunities to grow one day at a time. Um, super grateful for you. Love having you on the show. Yeah. Um, remind everybody uh your website before we jump off. Yep. So concierge wellness andpt.com. Um, you can just search concierge wellness especially in Cer Springs. It should pop up as the first one. Um, and like you said, I’m at Peaks Recovery now, 3 to four hours a week. That might expand. Um, I’m I’m potentially bringing on a massage therapist this year, and that could be another opportunity we could chat about. Oh, yeah. Um, but yeah, working with more trainers now. Been seeing athletes for several years, and so I have like my athletic population, and then, you know, the certain individuals at peaks and it’s it’s such a That’s cool. fascinating experiences. Yeah. Yeah. That’s cool, man. And I’ve already talked to a couple people like, “Yeah, I’m going to be seeing him when I get out of here.” Now he’s got his office off Garden of the Gods. So very much central, North Central closer to us up here at Peak. So yeah, that’s right. Yeah, super grateful for it, man. Well, thanks for coming on and for sure. Yeah, we’ll do another check-in maybe uh in the summertime. Okay. See how things are going. Awesome. I appreciate the time. Cool. You got it. Thank you, Dr. Wade. Until next time, my beautiful people.

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Episode 157Connection Over Isolation: The Real Path to Recovery with Sam PetersonWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/brg5F0FpQZYListen NowDescriptionIn this episode of Finding Peaks, Chris sits down once again with Sam Peterson, Director of Business Development at Mind Spa in Denver, for the first conversation recorded in our new studio! The two reconnect to reflect on where the work of recovery meets the realities of everyday life — exploring the impact of stress, the power of showing up, and the importance of staying grounded in the present moment. Together, they unpack the idea of “being where your feet are”, and how learning to move beyond the constant pull of “what if?” thinking can open the door to meaningful growth. Chris and Sam explore evolving perspectives in psychiatry, the road toward effective rehabilitation, and why community and human connection remain at the heart of lasting recovery. The episode closes with updates on Mind Spa and reflections on the continued work of building spaces where healing and transformation can take place.

Talking Points1. Introduction to the Show 2. Catching up with Sam 3. Be where your feet are 4. Showing up for success 5. The impact of stress 6. Getting past the “what if?” 7. New paths in psychiatry 8. The road to proper rehabilitation 9. The rat park experiment 10. The importance of connection 11. Mind Spa updates 12. Final thoughts Quotes

“Where are you getting your dopamine?” – Sam Peterson

Episode Transcripts

Episode -157- TranscriptsIt’s about the past and the future. This time actually doesn’t exist. And that’s where the suffering lives. We need to get away from this idea that talk therapy and med management can that are more effective than they are at treating acute mental health disorders cuz they’re not. They do not address the underlying neurobiology of PTSD, depression, anxiety, but especially not TBI. The things that are most important in my life today are more near and dear to my heart and I’m more connected with than I’ve ever been. The real hard thing is to look and go, “Wait, why is my son, daughter, significant other anesthetizing themselves against their reality? A reality that I am a part of.
Hey everybody and welcome to another amazing and exciting episode of Finding Peaks, yours truly. President and founder, chief executive officer, Christopher Michael Burns. So grateful to be here today in our new digs new studio. I got Pikes Peak over my left shoulder here and grateful to be joined by the first episode in the new studio, my great friend and colleague Sam Peterson, Denver Mind Spa. Let’s go, man. Great to have you here, dude. So happy to be here. Love the new place. Thanks, man. Grateful to have you. Sam was just uh a couple weeks ago, two, three weeks ago, we were down at um the winter symposium kind of chopping it up and walking around and we were inspired again to kind of get together and talk shop about mental health, stress, um sleep, diet, exercise, how all these things play into uh physical well-being and optimization of physical health. So, um there’s no other person I’d rather have on the show talking about this stuff. What is going on in your world, my friend? Well, you know, we uh we were talking a little bit before the show about, you know, entrepreneurship and about how chronic stress can just tank performance. And, you know, in both of our lines of work as CEOs, we have to be at the top of our game at all times because you never know when all of the sudden life or the universe is going to take a hatchet to your plans. And that became really apparent, you know, full disclosure, yesterday, I got I got kicked between the legs a couple different times in my business. And this morning, I was in the gym just having a really hard time focusing, thinking about all of the different things that could go wrong in my business and how it could just tank everything. And I had this quick moment of clarity. It was just like, “Hey man, be where your feet are because if you don’t focus on this workout, you’re not going to be able to perform later.” And that just brought up uh a lot of thoughts about how we as entrepreneurs do this all the time. And by ruminating and using our creativity negatively, we’re really shooting ourselves in the foot from a neurobiological perspective. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It actually brings up for me back in early 2023 when we got hit with what would eventually be the stream of about 10 different curve balls over two years. And I remember I was reading a book at the time and um I’ve mentioned it on the podcast before but it’s called the power of now and it’s um by a spiritual teacher and later named Eertl and he talks about suffering um outside of the present moment. So I love what you said because you were like if I can be where my feet are I can accomplish what I need to do today and that inflection point is something serious but really difficult under a tremendous amount of stress to come by. But he talks about the past and the future. This time actually doesn’t exist. And that’s where the suffering lives. And so, not only with ourselves as entrepreneurs, but our guests, our clients, the people we have the opportunity to serve. It really is um about getting them back into the present moment and getting them back into their shoes. And through that focus over the last few years, I’ve been really able to experience a tremendous amount of gratitude because I can be where my feet are in those moments when I jump into suffering as an entrepreneur, which is very very common because we’re thinking five years ahead and what we did a year ago that could have been different. But that inflection point of the present moment is a really powerful source of which over the last nine months have helped kind of propel me personally and professionally in a way that I never thought possible. Now, it doesn’t mean necessarily that anything’s better. It just means that I’m showing up and doing the best I can every day. Well, I think you you touched on it like it sounds like your mental state is better. Mhm. And that ability to divorce yourself from the constant catastrophizing is allowing you to be in the present moment and to perform at a higher level so that your next 2, three, five years are looking forward in a much more positive direction. That’s what it sounds like to me. Yeah. No, 100%. like as far as the professional side progressing, yeah, we’ve made incremental steps, but it’s like turning the Titanic, you know, very, very slow. But to your point, from a mental health perspective, and I’ve said this, I think even on the last show, was the things that are most important in my life today are more near and dear to my heart and I’m more connected with than I’ve ever been. And I wonder if it takes us as entrepreneurs sometimes kind of paying that luxury tax of like really being on the cliff’s edge and holding everything up and then looking down and looking back at what’s really important. And I wonder if it really takes that to have the gratitude for and to be within or to exercise the opportunity that is the present moment. Like it’s difficult it took for me like into the edge to really realize that everything I’ve ever wanted was there all along, you know, and I just don’t want to lose that. That’s I mean that’s really powerful. Yeah. It’s it’s so easy to look over and just catastrophize about the fall and not realize like hey actually look around. Mhm. one, I’ve got a great life, great relationships. They they fill my cup every single day. And if I look back historically, every time that I’ve been on the edge of this cliff, I figured it out. Mhm. Yeah. And I think being able to do that is the next level of human performance at the highest level because no matter what, there will always be these stressors and these existential crises that are going to throw you right back on that edge. And the cliff face always looks like a larger drop than it is. Mhm. And that plays into how our neurology works with that cuz we we are constantly as leaders, as CEOs, we have to have a little bit more of that neuroticism, that pension for feeling negative emotions more acutely. It’s what keeps us alive. Patrick Bet David says all the time, only the paranoid survive. And as much as I as much as I wanted to hate him for saying that, it is so true. For sure. You got to be on the edge a little bit. You got to be on the edge a little bit. You got to be looking forward. You have to You have to give in to that little dark passenger that’s like, “Hey, what about this?” Like, I’m going to think about that for an hour. Yeah. Or an hour or two or three or five. Or seven days. Or seven days. Exactly. And then being able to pull back from that or just like, hey, all right. I I did all that ruminating in the car. I’m home with my wife now. It’s time to click that off. I’m gonna be where my feet are now. And that bleeds into how we experience both our relationships and how we show up in our business. Cuz at the end of the day, all of that rumination and catastrophizing drives up cortisol levels. And we know that long exposure to long-term stress increases inflammation. And this kind of goes back to kind of back to like depression, anxiety, and and PTSD. When you are in a state of chronic stress like that, your blood vessels in your prefrontal cortex are being choked off. So your the part of your brain that’s responsible for telling your limbic brain to shut the hell up isn’t able to do it all the time. That’s wild. So, the impact of stress, which we don’t often times talk about. It’s it’s not in the the six dimensions of ASAM. Um there it’s it’s that’s not it’s not very clear to me where where it’s in there. But the impact of stress has an impact on uh any sort of pharmacological approach you’re trying to take, any holistic approach you’re trying to take. It’s we were talking before the show. It’s like I have folks up at the facility right now in our acute mental health space that can’t sleep and the medications aren’t working and nothing is working. Would you say that’s simply because of the foundation that sleep provides or doesn’t? It’s certainly a part of it cuz the thing that sleep does, one of the many things that it does is it’s the time when our brain actually cleans itself. And if you’re not able to clean out all of the dritis or abnormal operating, um, your brain gets gked up, inflammation gets driven up, and all of these different knock-on effects happen because the system is not able to perform routine maintenance. What do you think outside of sleep for people that are, you know, whether they’re engaged in your clinic or they’re moving into the outpatient setting in our clinic, what are some of the things we can do in addition to great sleep holistically that help inform a decreasing of inflammation? Yeah, I think tried and true diet and exercise just cannot be understated. You have to get your heart rate up, lift heavy things, and eat natural whole foods. If you’re not doing that, you’re setting yourself up for failure. Especially, you know, if you’re in an acute mental health situation, incredibly important. And on the other side, if you’re in a high performance situation, it I mean, hell, I’ve seen the I’ve seen the pictures. I’ve seen I’ve seen the pictures uh that you showed me from when you were in that, hey, high performance from a business perspective, but less than high performance from a personal perspective. But I mean, how how were you able to cope with all these curve balls that you’ve been thrown during that period versus now? Yeah, much much differently. I remember looking at things and being like, I don’t know what to do. And now things are so much more clear, so much more concise. And the same hose, the same uh um fire hose is still firing. I’m just able to digest it kind of more molecule by molecule as opposed to just seeing the whole thing at once and not knowing what to do and being paralyzed. But it’s interesting you say that too because I think it takes I mean I’ve heard before and I’m not a doctor or anything but like your your brain’s this muscle and so we have to activate it and put it through trials and tribulation and face intensity um with authenticity and presence and through doing that day after day after day. It’s the same fires. It’s the same hose. It’s just my ability to interpret the information is quite a bit different. I I like how Alex Ramoszi says it that entrepreneurship never gets easy, but it’s like climbing a mountain, finding finding your peak, if you will. It’s not that going up the mountain ever gets that much easier. You get used to the altitude. Yeah. Cuz I I you know, we we had, you know, something this week. I I remember very vividly when a similar problem happened. It was a couple of years ago and it took me down like in bed crying, couldn’t get out for like a day and a half and as soon as the the message got delivered, we we knew this negative thing happened in the business. It uh just took a breath and I was like, “Okay, it’s another one of those.” Mhm. I know how to deal with this. All right, it’s going to cut into our bottom line this much. We’re going to be okay. And that kind of resilience is a muscle. M you’re it is a network in your brain that’s like hey I’ve seen this before and it’s going to be okay. That is using your prefrontal cortex to calm down your amydala. M how do you I don’t know why it made me think of this when you said that but how do you as an entrepreneur with somebody who cares right because we’ve talked about that a lot you know we’re at the symposium there’s hundreds of people and you know every third conversation you can be like oh this this person’s in it like like right here you know but what is it like or how do you know as an entrepreneur and people like us when to keep fighting and when to stop because there’s Like we always talk about, you and I have talked about it like when things actually happen, when the impossible becomes possible, it’s because we got rid of the backup plan. And that backup plan is that ambiguity that keeps us overnight like what if, what if, what if, what if, what if? How do you how do you get through that? Well, I was I was just in South Carolina at a an event called Patriot Boot Camp, and it’s an event for, you know, newer entrepreneurs. I I went there as a more seasoned uh entrepreneur. They wanted me to go there as a mentor. And what I found is the people ahead of me, we all shared something in common. We all had these same stories, these curve balls that just hit us straight in the face over and over and over again. And I’m not going to make payroll, and I’m going to have to sell my house. And oh my god, what did I do? I ruined my marriage. Mhm. Every single successful person who was in that ultra wealthy centiionaire category had the exact same story. And not only did they have those exact same stories, but they had that exact same story of resilience. They either figured out that something they were doing wasn’t quite working. There was too much resistance that wasn’t giving and they took a side step and pivoted. or and this is where where I find myself is despite the challenges what we see is are these incredible results we’re seeing you know incredible results in symptom remission like 14 to 17 days you like that doesn’t that doesn’t exist anywhere else in mental health so despite the challenges people don’t feel that way in inatient treatment no with the volume turned to zero yeah like in the best therapeutic setting yeah I mean we just uh we just had an army veteran with with PTSD who wasn’t sleeping, couldn’t hold a job, couldn’t focus. And hell, in 3 weeks, she she’s applying for a position. She feels great. She’s able to reconnect with her kids. And it’s it’s those stories. It’s knowing that you’re making an impact in other people’s lives that that drives me to keep going every day. And you know, not not everybody who listens to this is going to be in mental health and they’re making huge impacts. They could be selling widgets, right? That doesn’t mean that there’s any less of an impact in the environment you create for your employees. You know, the greatest contributor to someone’s mental health isn’t your therapist, it’s who you work for. Mhm. So even in those situations, there is a ton of value, intrinsic value to be derived from providing that sort of space and that sort of value to the people around you. Yeah. Yeah. That’s impactful. It’s um the stories for me are an incredible thing. You know, we had a uh we had a guy come through our program in 2021 and he did pretty well and then he went back. He’s from New York City. real good kid, man. Like [ ] just one of the most talented. Like wrote a song while he was at Peaks. He sang and um you could tell that we were spending the best days of this young man’s life with him. Whether that was going to continue or not, I don’t know. It’s above my pay grade. So he comes back most recently in 2025, spends about 6 months in and out of outpatient primary care, decides to stay in Colorado and um he ended up passing away last week from an overdose. And so um not in our program, but he was out in the community and very good kid, man. Touched a lot of people. And I was able to call his dad and you he talked to a father who lost his son. You know, it’s a it’s a difficult conversation. um one of which I hope I never have to face. But um he found himself like in gratitude and his son had just passed away four or five days ago for the time and that we gave him and we got to spend with him at peaks. And in that moment I knew every bit of blood, sweat, tears, energy, stress that goes into this mission is meaningful and it matters to people and guys like us. Why I love that we care so much and why I know that we’re going to be successful in our endeavors is because there is no backup plan. We don’t we don’t quit or we don’t turn it over to shareholders. We go until our last breath. And you and I have committed to that in one way or another for the people that we serve, which is very, very powerful and something that comes through in conversation and energy um in the work that we do on a daily basis. So, I love that you brought up those stories cuz it’s I get a few of them every week and I’m like, “All right, I’m just going to go work harder. I’m just going to keep working hard, you know?” So, I love that about Mind Inspa. I love that about your crew. I love that about the way that you show up in community cuz it seems to me after being a part of my 13th annual winter symposium that those relationships and those types of providers are very few and far between these days. I do. I think you’re right. I mean, it’s it’s very rare to find founder-ledd organizations that are just mission first, outcomes first. There’s there’s so much of this industry that’s been rolled up by private equity and it’s let’s play the cost cutting game and so we can drive the bottom line up, drive our expenses down and sell to the next private equity is going to do the same thing and just bringing the value out of treatment and in doing so cheapening it for everyone and it it gives a lot of us a bad name. Mhm. I could think of a couple places uh you know in Denver that that do that on the outpatient side and it’s it’s frankly disheartening, a little disgusting. Um but it also gives it gives founder organizations a real place to shine as well. Y and that’s that is the the balm for constantly getting punched in the face by regulatory agencies, insurance companies, the the oneoff pissed-off patient. Yeah. these owner occupied situ. I mean, it’s interesting you say that because at uh the symposium and just in normal kind of day-to-day business development stuff when we talk about being a legacy program, you know, over 10 years and last I checked there was three of us that are Raleigh House, Rose House, and Peaks Recovery over 10 years, owner occupied and owner led. And um there’s some special sauce to that because when we do our Thursday director meetings, we’re not despondent to shareholders. Not that some shareholders, not that they’re all created even, but we’re outcomes driven. We’re human driven. You know, we’re patient driven. And I think that shows up in a market today to your point as kind of like a bright light. The only problem is is that families are left kind of trying to find a needle in a hay stack because it’s uh it’s my website verse yours and ours verse theirs. And it’s it’s a difficult mountain to climb sometimes. But I think these differentiators that you and I are talking about over time, one day at a time will eventually kind of rise to the top and people see that clearly. Yeah. And I think that there’s also a there’s an opening door with, you know, psychedelic therapies with neurom modulation. I mean, what you guys are doing with with TMS with your clients is is pretty incredible. And hell, nobody’s doing it. Mhm. And you know there there’s so much more that even could be done like when you add in all of these different modalities like this stuff works and it works fast. Yep. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. We haven’t even we haven’t even scratched the surface of like what um EEG guided or personalized TMS can do for people. It’s incredible. Or you know I gain being legalized in the states. I’m really excited about that one. Heard they’re going to have a spot in Boulder here in the next 6 months. Yeah. The same one that’s out in um one of the providers I know locally here use them. It’s the same one out of uh Tijana. Yeah. Apparently it’s great great shop. I don’t know the name though. Am talking about Ambio? It sounds familiar. Oh anyway, could be. Yeah. I mean, there there’s so much. This is such a great time to be in psychiatry because we’re just knocking on the door of understanding the brain and using these new tools and using these new neuroplastic tools along with culturally competent therapy to like heal and rewire the brain simultaneously. the I mean I I really think that in the next 1015 years we could drastically reduce if not eliminate the drug abuse problem in America and then you know next step from there is neurodeenerative disease. Yeah, for sure man. I love what you’re talking about too because we’ve been able to a lot like like your guys’ hyperbaric chamber that’s just an add-on for people because it decreases inflammation. The studies are there. We don’t need insurance to pay for it to tell us that it’s good for people and yeah, it’s going to be good for their healing. It’s another thing with this tryare tri west contract is like nobody does inatient treatment. Nobody wants to do impatient treatment because they don’t get paid a lot. But if we can, Peaks has decided to take this low rate, stabilize our veterans, get them into the ambulatory levels of care for some of these lifesaving measures after we stabilize their AUD or their acute mental health. And so I think a lot like you guys, we’ve created these service lines that really inform like regulation and then getting into some of these life-saving things, which is really, really cool. So, it’s been um it’s been fun working with this population and we just started to step into it. Um but I’m really excited about the impact we can make because there’s not a lot of residential doing any sort of TMS step down or anything like that. There’s only three that I can think of across the nation off the top of my head. Yeah. And that’s what needs to happen. We need to get away from this idea that talk therapy and med management can that are more effective than they are at treating acute mental health disorders because they’re not right. They do not address the underlying neurobiology of PTSD, depression, anxiety, and especially not TBI. No. No way. Like because if you are not addressing the inflammatory cascade that is going on in the brain, you are wasting the patient’s time. Period. End of story. Right? And you are certainly wasting their money and the money of the insurance companies that are paying because at the end of the day if as a treatment center, as an outpatient clinic, our goal collectively and individually should be to make it so the patient never has to come to our level of care again. Right. Heal. Heal. Yeah. It’s such a such a dirty four-letter word. I know, man. Like, what did you say? Did you say did you say cure? Yeah. Don’t say that. Don’t say that word. I think it’s called remission. Say it is. Yeah, it’s called remission instead of cure because our entire system is set up to create lifelong patients instead of just directly targeting that root cause and and helping our patients get over it permanently. Why I mean, why can’t the goal, oh, there’s no money in it? Well, good. Let’s Let’s work so hard, solve one of society’s biggest problems, and put oursel out of business. And while we’re doing that, I’m sure we’ll figure we’ll figure out some other problems, right? Yeah, dude. It’s so funny, man. But next global warming. Let’s go. Yeah. Everybody’s in the business for refeed business. And don’t get me wrong, you know, we have guests come back and our goal is lifelong healing. And at the same time, we want to plant a seed because not everybody’s in a right spot to go down the path they need to that’s necessary for their recovery. And so I think at the very least you plant a seed um for a future opportunity as well. So um I wanted to chat with you about something. We weren’t talking about it before the show, but it’s been on my mind this week. Um I’ve just been hearing a lot about it. What is your take on specifically people who cope with substances and the old kind of approach with substance abusers, addiction in general, especially on the family side of things was to um not love them into recovery, but ultimately like the show intervention, set a boundary, tell them if you don’t get your [ ] together, you don’t have a family anymore. What do you think where do you think that inflection point is? is and how would you point which direction would you point somebody and a family if they came to you asking about their loved one who was struggling with substances and of course they’re associated and connected with a lot of high-risisk behaviors at Yeah. You know, not to tell anybody what to do with their family cuz every situation is different. Um I can tell you what happened with mine. Yeah. Uh because my little brother caught a meth addiction early in life, kicked that and then caught a cocaine addiction like so much so that he doesn’t have a septum anymore. Damn. Yeah. and we were able to, you know, put him through uh one of our programs and he now he’s not sober, but I watched him uh have a responsible association with substances. And like I don’t want to say that’s the goal for everybody, but if it’s a choice between using until you die and using a small amount once a month, right? I think we all know what the better option is. So I I think it’s a mix of both. You have to set boundaries with people. um especially when it comes to substances because what we noticed is that he didn’t really develop past a certain point. It was like dealing with a 30-year-old 16-year-old. Yeah. The the prefrontal cortex was just not there. And he wasn’t able to cognitively understand the impact that his actions had on the people around him. And so that’s we’re like, hey, this is done. you’re going to treatment. Um, we’re going to do the the TMS and the hyperbaric oxygen therapy and it it made huge strides. He gained more functional control over his impulses and then he moved in with us for a little bit and I thought, and this is, you know, my my ignorance on display here. So, I thought, hey, me and my wife are both high performers. We work out every day. We eat right. We have a very very balanced life. this example should be enough. And it wasn’t. It it became very clear, you know, after 9 months that even though the he was able to put on the brakes for substance abuse, the development of habits and discipline was still not there and I didn’t have the bandwidth to do that. So, you know, I found a really good friend of mine who used to be a a Delta Force operator who wanted who had a pension for for helping young kids uh get to the next level. And I was like, “Hey, this is the best thing for you.” So, I think that there to go back to your question, it starts with boundaries, but there needs to be compassionate treatment that addresses the root cause. And then we need to look at like where is this person in their developmental cycle? Is this someone who is a 35, 45year-old, 16year-old? Because we need to do something different with that individual. There needs to be a lot more one-on-one coaching, a lot more handholding, a lot more teaching them how to be an adult human. And for men, teaching them how to be a man, that doesn’t happen. That doesn’t happen in treatment. That doesn’t happen in inatient. That’s not something we really talk about. that the the road to proper rehabilitation has many peaks and valleys and we have to meet people where they are and just get them on the damn path. Yeah. I love what you said there cuz not once when you identified what you would say to a family did you say, “Well, we need to tell them to stop using drugs. Just stop doing the thing.” Right? You didn’t say that once in any of that. Oh, well, I because a lot of this is like somehow now sobriety is considered success that you know I I have you ever read uh Johan Hari Chasing the Scream? No, but I love his quotes. Uh yeah, that for anybody who hasn’t that he uses the Mamillian model of addiction if you you know they did the experiment the rat park experiment. Experiment number one. Take rat. Put the rat in cage. Food, water, heroin. Rat does heroin till it dies. Oh no. These drugs have chemical hooks. These hooks are going to get into you and they’re going to pull you in and you’re never going to be able to get out forever. Forever.
So that was the running hypothesis for years, for decades. Then someone decided to run a different experiment. They got a bigger cage. Rat Park baby. Rat Park baby. Yeah, they got a bigger cage. All the rats went in it. There were a ton of them. They got to run around, have sex, food, water, heroin. What What does our model tell us about what’s going to go on in this experiment? What is the hypothesis that this is going to become the rat trap house? Yep. They’re going to start playing nasty rap music and they’re all going to get high on heroin on the porch. That’s right. Other rats are going to roll up. The other rats are going to roll up. There’s going to be drivebys in rat park. It’s going to be awful. Rats will go extinct. Rats will all go extinct. Yeah. What happens the exact opposite of that? They do it once and then never do it again. The same the same thing goes for mammals. It is not about the chemical hooks of some drug. If that was true, anybody who ever went and got surgery would be addicted to opiates. Yep. Yep. Right. Anybody who ever anybody who ever who is a pediatric patient or beriatric patient who got ketamine would be addicted to ketamine. Not the case. That’s not what we see. Addict, especially if you’re an addict. not what we see. Yeah. So, it’s it’s not about the hooks, it’s about the cage. The opposite the the opposite of addiction is not sobbriety. The opposite of addiction is connection. And that is something that we forget at our peril. Yep. I love that, man. It’s so true. And I I love that we’re reframing that for our industry. I still felt a lot of that kind of old school energy, especially on the family side, man. I watch a lot of our these family therapists and, you know, they’re 20 years sober, but they’re also not taking great care of themselves and things of that nature. But they come out and they do, and I think providers do this, inatient treatment programs do this because it’s easier or easier is is a is an interesting term for it, but it they tell the families, “We’re going to do these big rigid boundaries. is the family doesn’t have to do any work. Client does the work, family builds the boundaries, he’ll be back fixed. Sorry, my bad. He’ll be there for his amen’s trip. But there’s no family recovery. There’s none of that. And so I see a lot of these treatment programs, they push this like narrative on families to be like, “Tell your son if he leaves treatment.” Often times, I think it’s nothing more than a retention model to make money. Um because the family doesn’t grow, they don’t show, and if they don’t show, the young adult doesn’t go. And it’s a very tough thing because we know family recovery is everything. So, I love what you’re talking about because it’s so easy to hit the easy button today, but the hard thing comes 20 years from now. Yeah. Well, the whole the the entire idea that again, we go back to the chemical hooks thing that this person’s just broken and they found something that got got hooks into them and they need they need to stop it. That is the easy button. That is the lack of logic easy way out. The real hard thing is to look and go, wait, why is my son, daughter, significant other anesthetizing themselves against their reality? A reality that I am a part of. Mhm. Right. [ ] That’s a tough question. That’s a real tough question. A lot of people don’t want to ask that. I mean that’s that is why the the rates of sobriety in the in programs and overall if you really look it out I think what 2% of people stay sober. Yeah. It’s alarming. Yeah. Because we’re not getting to the root cause. Now there’s a lot of neurob biological stuff we can do. You know reinforce the prefrontal cortex, use things like TMS. It’s great. But if the rat comes out of rat park and goes back in to the isolation isol isolation cage, what is going to happen? The same thing that happened last time. Hard to get enough sun that almost works. I love that. It’s so interesting, too. We had a guest come in yesterday and I toured him and his family last week. He’s got a ton of anxiety, man. Real young guy standing off in the corner, but you can tell all he wants is connection. We got the best medical team and everything’s wrapped around him, all this stuff. And he’s like, last night he’s like, I don’t know, maybe it’s not the spot for me. I need to go. This morning we got on a chat. We’re like, hey, let’s grab him. Let’s just move him to the house right away. Let’s get three of his peers, um, like-minded peers, young adults to come over who are kind of senior members, and just share with them. Let them know what they’re connecting with tonight. Let them know they’re going on a hike in the Garden of the Gods. I saw him this morning after that happened over the first hour’s day. He’s just like, “Yeah, man. Like, I don’t need to leave. This is going to be great cuz I got these guy and it’s just like it’s everything, dude. It is everything, dude. I mean, Ron Ron says it all the time, my my business partner. Be a good mammal. You can solve a lot of the world’s problems just being a good mammal. You can solve a lot of yours, too. Yeah. You see miracles happen just by someone with 20 days into the program going up to someone with four days and being like, “Hey, man. I see you. I care about you. and your outcome matters to me. Come with me. It just is better than any therapy. It’s the craziest thing I’ve ever seen. And then if I got somewhere to go on Saturday night where I’m expected to be and it’s a barbecue, like maybe I won’t sit there and do heroin. Maybe I’ll take a rain check on that. Well, I mean, at the end of the day, where are you getting your dopamine? Right. Yeah. Are you getting it you getting an IV mainline in your dopamine or you getting it through human connection? Yeah. One after another. Yeah. one after another reinforcing those loops. Being a good mammal, if you flex that muscle enough times, it becomes a lot easier to use. But so often and so easily, I mean, and this goes for entrepreneurs, too. [ ] I find myself doing it. When you’re in the hole, you find yourself isolating. Yeah, man. Closing the door, door closed, blinds open, just trying. Yeah, man. Just grab I grab my Xbox controller and I’m like, I don’t want to talk to anybody right now cuz I’m in a lot of pain. And that very very easily becomes a self-reinforcing cycle where you’re like, I don’t want to go. I don’t want to go see anybody at all. I I don’t even like people actually. I don’t. Turns out Turns out. And then I go into treatment, they’re like, you have antisocial personality disorder. I’m like, “Yeah, that’s what somebody who’s not curious would say, you know.” Yeah. I bet you’re going to call me a narcissist. Yeah, I guarantee you. Yeah, cuz you’re entrepreneur. You’re guy. All that stuff, man. You’re saying I’m highly neurotic. You’re highly neurotic. You’re You got it coming. Exactly, man. Oh, man. I love it, man. Always a pleasure having you on the show. Before we wrap up, anything? Yeah. Anything you want to update the viewers on? Anything fun you guys got going on there at Denver Mind Spa? It is always um I hold that you guys in highest regard and what you’re doing from an innovation perspective alone is cutting edge. So Oh thanks man. Well you know like you we are really focused on you know working with veterans and first responders. Um we’ve you know recently become a part of the path for EMS program. So now any first responder who has a EMT or paramedics license has an $1,850 grant uh attached to them for the treatment of mental health disorders. Uh our clinic is the only place you can do hyperaric and uh ketamine through that grant. No way. Yeah. That’s When did you guys get that? Oh, that’s been that’s been in the works for a while. Okay. Yeah. So that that happened. So they can come get their services there and then get the hyperbaric as well. Yeah. So, they can get up to 24 sessions of hyperbaric for for no cost just using that grant. Um, and it also can take up to 60% off the cost of ketamine infusion therapy. Oh, nice. Yeah. How long from, you know, let’s say a first responder has an issue or a mental health crisis or something come up. How long is it to get that grant and then to come see you guys? I can have it in an hour. Okay. So, they call you first? Yeah, they call us. Yeah, they call us first. Uh, just do the do um our intake paperwork. my staff gives them a call and then we put it into the grant program and it’s very fast. So we’re, you know, we’re able to get them in within the next week or two right now. Um, yeah. And then, you know, we relaunched our our Triricare program. So if any Triricare beneficiaries, uh, especially in the northern Colorado Springs or Denver areas are struggling. If you have failed at least three anti-depressants, so you’ve tried them and they didn’t work for you, you know, that doesn’t make you a failure. that means the medicine didn’t work. But if that’s the case, then you qualify for transcranial magnetic stimulation. And through our program, we are able to grant uh ketamine infusion therapy and hyperbaric oxygen therapy at uh super super low cost. So patients are able to get, you know, $20,000 plus worth of of cutting edged mental health treatment for a very very low cost. So, we’re really working on bringing down the barriers to treatment for our veteran and first responder population that just so often get left out in the cold. Yeah. Yeah. I love that you mentioned that, man, and I’ll continue to say it. There’s nobody that I know offering those types of resources in addition to what their insurance pays for. And um so if you’re looking to get in, you’re a first responder, you’re a military service member, active duty, combat veteran, or your family, and you’re in Northern Colorado, even Northern Colorado Springs outside of Peaks Recovery down here, I think Mind Spa is absolutely the is absolutely my choice for outpatient um clinical services with respect to the opportunity our service members and first responders have to actually healing and getting back into the day-to-day. And I think that’s something that you guys do better than anybody and something that’s been um valued at the in the highest regard of the service members that I’ve been talking to is like how do we get people back to work better than ever? Right. That’s it. Back to work better than how do we take our $510 million Green Berets and get them back to work better than ever? And you guys do that in an amazing way, man. And I couldn’t be more grateful to have you as a friend, as a colleague, back on the show. Looking forward to having a phenomenal 2026. One day at a time. One day at a time, baby. All right, man. Appreciate you, bro. All my beautiful listeners out there, welcome to the new studio. Check out Ps. Let’s go, baby. Onward and upward, baby. Saving lives. Mission critical. Until next time. Peace.

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Episode 156Trials, Tribulations, and Triumphs with Kassidy BurnsWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/xpeF6YTEKIQListen NowDescriptionIn this special episode of Finding Peaks, Chris sits down with Kassidy Burns, Peaks Recovery Centers’ Community Outreach Specialist and a foundational voice in the growth of the organization, for an honest and deeply personal conversation about the journey behind the mission. Together, they reflect on how Peaks Recovery Centers found its way to Colorado, the challenges and triumphs along the way, and what it truly means to put people first. From trusting the process and walking through suffering, to balancing purpose-driven work with personal life, Chris and Kassidy share what it looks like to do the work—day after day—and show up as you are. This episode is about growth, resilience, and choosing to be better today than yesterday, even when the road isn’t easy. Authentic moments, real conversations, and the heart behind Peaks—this is one you won’t want to miss.

Talking Points1. Introduction to the Show 2. Meet Kassidy 3. How PRC came to Colorado 4. Trusting the process 5. People first 6. From professional to personal life 7. Walking in suffering 8. Doing the work 9. Being better today than yesterday 10. Showing up as you are 11. Authentic moments that matter 12. Final thoughts Quotes

“Life is a journey and it is about making that next best choice to be better than we were yesterday”– Kassidy Burns

Episode Transcripts

Episode -156- TranscriptsIt doesn’t matter how you do it, when you do it, what you’re doing when you do it. If you’re showing up with authenticity and love and care and compassion and empathy, those people are being seen. If you’re comfortable, take the next step. Experience a little bit of uncomfortability. But I might say, “But I don’t know what’s on the other side of that.” And I might say, “Trust the process.” How can we work together? Because at the end of the day, all of our goals should be the same. To help the client, to help their family, for these people to get well. I mean, period dot the end. And whatever that wellness looks like for them, how can we be a part of it? [Music] [Applause] [Music] Hey everybody and welcome to another exciting, amazing and enthusiastic episode of Finding Peaks. I am so grateful today to be joined by my dear friend, colleague, wife, business partner, ride or die, Cassidy Burns on the set. Welcome to the show, Cassidy. So grateful to have you. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. and we’re going to introduce Cassidy and her new role. But I really wanted to go over I was sitting in the hot tub this morning and I told Cass I was like here’s the topic peaks, trials, tribulations, and triumphs over the last 11 years. And I’m really excited to kind of get into the nitty-gritty on like how this all became. What were the thoughts, feelings, and emotions behind Opening Peaks? What has it been like throughout the process? In addition to that, it’s our 13-year wedding anniversary. So, as we kick off the new year, 2026, Peak’s recovery, Cassidy Burns has been a constant throughout the 11 years here at Peaks and um real grateful to have her on the show to gain her insights. Um because I don’t remember watching a podcast with a treatment center owner on there and uh his wife. So, really looking forward to kind of getting a bird’s eye view into what it has been like for you. And certainly you remember so much more than I do because I’m like in the fire and then I come home and like share with you, but you have this real objective way to look at things and experience things. And so just want to allow the viewers a little insight into that journey and what it’s been like for you and how you carry that message into your current outreach position. So, as we go back to 2013, which was the year before we opened Peaks, um I think I came to you at the end of 2013, and I said I had just got back from a trip to Colorado. Yep. I visited Parker Valley Hope, which was our one and only referral source at the time. We’re building a phenomenal relationship. And I went there to drop off Chipotle and just say, “Thank you very much from Prescuit, Arizona.” And they said, “Chris, you need to open a program in Colorado.” Yep. So, I come home and I say, “Babe, I got this plan. We’re going to move to Colorado. The thing is is we’re going to do it in like the next 90 days.” Yep. Like, what was that like? What was that experience? You know, back then we were I’m 40 now. So, I was 29 28 years old. Mhm. Um, what was that like? What was that experience for you having been kind of engulfed in the recovery community up to that point? I was excited but also really scared. Uh Prescuit where we were moving from was my hometown as you know. Uh I love my hometown. I miss my hometown all the time. It’s a really beautiful place to grow up. Um but and I you know I had felt connected when we were leaving. You know I had made a couple of really close friends. We were really integrated in the community. We were showing up for the community. I mean, not just the treatment center that we were working for, but we were a part of a whole lot of other communities that we were going into all the time. Uh, I felt seen. I felt valued in Prescuit. I had a lot of people that I didn’t want to leave. But I also knew that your vision that you had for something new and something great that we could do it. There was no doubt in my mind that we were going to make it happen. I just didn’t know exactly what that was going to look like, right? I mean, we literally came out here two weeks before we moved out here, found a place to live. Uh, and then you drove out a couple of weeks before I even did. Uh, and I remember driving out alone and just being really scared about what the future was to hold for us and to leave everything that we had already built behind. I mean, we were leaving something great. We were both making really great money. Um, we had a wonderful house. We had a dog. I mean, we were starting to build our lives. So, then to uproot that and drive somewhere that neither one of us had really ever spent any time. I mean, when we first moved here, I remember telling people, I don’t even know where a gas station is. Um, but I was also so excited. Uh, you were in school. Um, I just knew that whatever we were going to create together was going to be beautiful and amazing. Um, and I knew we were going to serve a population that was so much needed out here. You know, when we first opened, there was 68 programs in the entire state. Um, Donna Schwarz at Parker Valley Hope at the time seemed to really love you and your vision as well. I mean, I remember when we first came out here and we went to the Omni Resort for the very first um what’s it called? the conference the conference very first conference that you and I had done together and we met all these wonderful people many of them on which we are still in contact with today closely and it was really after that weekend that I thought to myself like we can do this we’re going to make this work no matter what and we have what it takes to make it work yeah it was uh I I remember that conference so clearly and one thing people don’t know is like I do get nervous on occasion And I remember like after you mentioned that I I remember checking in and seeing Lenny in line. Yep. And I’m like, I don’t even know where to hold my hands. I guess I’m a professional. I’m um trying to figure out how to be an owner and maybe I have a little bit of imposttor syndrome. Then we went and put our stuff in our room. And I I thought to myself when I was in there, I was like, I could just stay in this room for the rest of the conference. Yep. But we went out there and a lot of those pictures in our first six months, our first year is just me and you at the booth, me with my bow tie, which was frankly it was a clip on and um but we were doing it. And it’s this idea of like we always teach this to people in recovery. It’s like if you’re comfortable, take the next step. Experience a little bit of uncomfortability. But I might say, “But I don’t know what’s on the other side of that. And I might say trust the process. Yeah. And so we did something very similar where to your point like we were more comfortable probably spiritually mentally emotionally monetarily than we had ever been. But there was a calling to do something different to do something unique and to bring something to Colorado that frankly just hasn’t been in the Colorado provider community. Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. I mean, we were one of the first extended care programs out here. Yep. There there wasn’t any extended care treatment. I mean granted since then we have grown into so much more than that which we also never thought possible but it was it was it was something new. It was something fresh. I mean we knew we loved Colorado. We were like oh the state is amazing. Uh we knew it called to us in that way. Um but it there was just so much unknown. I mean and even you and I talk about it all the time when I start to look back like we had no idea what we were doing. like we were riding off the backs of what we had seen what we had seen done and just knew in a few specific areas how we wanted to do things differently. That’s all it was. We picked out what maybe a handful a couple handfuls of things that we didn’t like that we saw within the industry that we wanted to change that we wanted things to look differently and we kind of just rode with that. You know, it was a really special time. And although we didn’t know what we know today, the benefit of hindsight is incredible. I mean, I walk through our hall of fame and at the facility and I’m like, shouldn’t have been on that 14er, you know, but these are some of the most connected times in the early process of peaks and really establishing this idea that we really, really care. And you know, for those of you who don’t know, you know, Cassidy comes from a family of mental health issues and substance related issues and things of that nature. And so, she’s always had a big heart for people in recovery. And um that’s how I met her. She was hanging out with all these freaking recovery people. And I’m like, “What are you doing here?” You know, and I’ve learned over the years that she wants to see people get well. She wants to see authentic recovery processes. And although we didn’t have necessarily a business plan or a plan of action, the idea was is that we could plant a seed of hope. Correct. And we could plant a seed of hope that says regardless of where you go, you know, and our outcomes probably weren’t amazing at the time. We weren’t keeping a lot of that data, but wherever you go, you’ll always know that there’s a team of people in Colorado Springs that are really, really rooting for you. Mhm. And I think that as much as it it feels small, I think that was something that we did really really well in the early years of our program. Yeah, I would say so too. I mean, you know, people always want to kind of rip on who you are at the beginning of everything, but every single person that I’m still in contact with today that went through our program within even the first five years uh have nothing but amazing things to say. I mean, even the things now that you would never see again, you know, modalities and certain certain things that were used back then that were a little more shame based than they are now, which was we just didn’t have the knowledge. Uh, none of those people would take any of that back though. You know, it still seemed like we could see the person for who they are. You know, even when I started hanging out with people in early recovery, I was brought to that space because I started going to Alanon and then I started going to ACA. Um, I had always had this deep rooted thing inside of me that told me that the way my family looked isn’t how it had to look. That there was so much more to life and to humans in general that we were just missing. You know, my dad even used to ask me all the time like,”Why do you hang out with these people in recovery?” And I was like, “Well, where else can you go into a room with a group of people that are constantly trying to better themselves?” I said, “I want some of that. I want to sit with people that are willing to be vulnerable and say, “I’m not okay, and what can I do to be better?” You know, even when I used to go into early circles, you know, even in Arizona when I’d go to women’s circles and people would beounding on their clients to give up information, it wasn’t about that for me. It was I wanted every single person in that room to know that I saw them as a human being. That we can talk about the stories. We can talk about the drugs that you used or didn’t use. We can talk about what you did to get those drugs. We can talk about where you lived or didn’t live, the relationships you had or didn’t have, but at the end of the day, what are the feelings attached to that? What brought you here? What is the core root of the why? Because I’m a human just like you. I felt pain, anger, disgust, trust, distrust, loyalty, love. Like at the end of the day, we all share the same human emotions, but we get so attached to the why of what brought me here instead of I’m human, too. I have felt that, too. Yes, my story may be different than yours. But I know what pain feels like. I know what loneliness feels like. I mean, I’ve struggled with mental health my entire life. I know what anxiety feels like, depression feels like. So, how can we sit with another human being and see them as an equal? Not for their story, not for what they’ve been through, not for what got them there, but for the emotions that we all share. And how can we connect in that way? Yeah. I love that you said that. It’s almost like because I really value what we do at Peaks as far as the mental health and the substance use integration, how we don’t see a separate path. Correct. And on that path, you would have been in a treatment program. Yeah. serving your needs, your mental health issues. But we were told a lot of different stories and mixed messages like AA is not a hot bed for mental health. This isn’t about mental health. This is about substance use. Closed meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous, church basement, you know, the whole drill. And so I love that you you brought that up. I think it’s a really important feature for people to understand um and to put the shovel down, you know? Yeah. Because at the end of the day, what is it that connects us? What what brings us together? Humanness. Humanness. Yeah. Like I mean, even in recovery, right, we we want to judge people. We want to get on them or, oh, they made that choice or that choice or they did this or they did that. I’m guilty of it. But at the end of the day, that’s their life, their story, their path. Maybe I would have chose something different for myself, but I’m a different human being. I’m a different person. And we spend so much time focusing on those differences instead of what makes us alike, you know, like we have so how many groups of different groups of friends do we have? You know, it’s like, oh, we’ve got our jiu-jitsu friends, we have wrestling friends now because of our boys joining wrestling, you know, we have work friends, we have outside of work friends, we have more f friends that have become family than we do family. Mhm. It it’s these connections that we continue to go out and choose to build. Now, are every single one of them intimate and they all get to come into our inner circle and be a part of the inner messes? No. But they are people that we can go to in different groups that we know love us, know care about us, make us feel seen, make us feel heard, and make us feel valued. And really that is the whole point. Yeah. You know, and with mental health, you know me, I’m naturally introverted. I have zero issues being by myself. I in fact love it. But that leads to loneliness for me. And I will always choose isolation over community. Always. It’s what’s comfortable for me. It’s where my trauma lies. But every single time I get out into doing something with other people, I’m energized. I have a great time. I push myself into new experiences. I mean, even you guys putting me in the community outreach role. I told you, I was like, “Oh my goodness, you’re going to put the introvert in the community outreach role.” I mean, that’s a lot of peopleling. Yeah. you know, but every single time I’ve stepped in these spaces, no matter how insecure I feel or imposterous I feel, I come back to me and realizing that I’m capable of so much more than I even give myself or the box that I put myself in. You know, we live in a society today that puts labels on everything. Everybody wants a label. We want labels to feel seen and heard, but really all they do is separate us. We, oh, you’re into that. I’m not into that. I don’t fit. Humans are complex. We are deep. We’re multiaceted, right? Just because I enjoy wrestling and jiu-jitsu, that doesn’t mean that I don’t enjoy yoga. That me doesn’t mean that I don’t enjoy souring in the woods. That I don’t enjoy stillness. You know, we like to just put people in boxes because it makes us feel safe and oh, if they like that, then we can connect there. Or they like that, we can connect there. Well, what if you just showed up as your whole authentic self and allowed people to love you for all the complexities? You find a much bigger community. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And a much more connected community. Yeah. I love that you brought that up. It’s so valuable. And I think sometimes people can’t see themselves in those labels and so they just turn the other way, put the phone down and don’t reach out for help. So I’m really grateful you mentioned that. With the Peak’s journey, you know, we opened in September of 2014 and by November of 2015, our first son was born. Correct. And by October 14th of 2016, our second son was born. And I continued down the path of Peaks. Not only were we opening did we open the men’s program in 14, we opened the women’s program in 15, we opened professional outpatient in 16 and you went from being kind of a professional by my side to a full-time mom. Correct. And I had thought because of my trauma and my pain and I had thought that what men do is they just go improve the socioeconomic situation of their family and grow them up and out of that level. Yep. And that’s what I did really really quickly. But in that process when kind of you went home and and were at a stay-at-home mom, there was a lot of disconnection. You struggled really bad throughout that process. We struggled really bad throughout that process. And on the front of the book, it looked really nice though. It did. Looked really nice. Beautiful custom home, two Irish twins, car stuff, treatment program, connection. Yep. But what do you think we missed in there? And what did that feel like for you?
We missed a lot. Yeah. I mean I mean I mean I mean we didn’t even hit the target. I was launching arrows over like is that good? Is that good? You know uh I mean you know many people would probably be really surprised to hear this but I mean we barely made it out of that. You know and what a lot of people don’t know is we also miscarried a few months after moving out here. And for me, still not knowing where anything really is because we jump straight into work. Um, I have no community out here. I have no friends. Meanwhile, back at home, I’m dealing with the separation of friendships and relationships. People that didn’t show up for me once you moved, which is really common. Everybody thinks, “Oh, my friends are going to come see me and it’s going to be so great.” No. A lot of those relationships fizzled and they ended. Um, you know, I was a mess to be completely honest. I was a complete mess. I wasn’t doing any work for myself after the miscarriage. And then we got pregnant shortly after that again with Rooric. Um, and then six weeks postpartum with Roric, found out that I was pregnant again with Garrick. Um, and I wasn’t happy to be completely honest. I was so scared. I mean, Roric was really struggling the first three weeks that he was home with us. Um, certain expectations that I had for the way things were going to go. Um, oh yeah, we had the whole birth plan. Yeah, we had this whole birth plan. Oh, yeah. We’re going to do all these things. The wind’s going to blow in this thing and oh, I’m going to I’m going to breastfeed. I’m going to do all these things. Well, I have a medical condition and was un unable to breastfeed and uh the delivery didn’t go the way I expected it to. I ended up having to have an emergency epidural. The doula, we had a doula. I mean, everything was not going according to my plan. And you know, growing up with anxiety and depression and my family system, yes, I never did substances, but control and codependency were my things, right? They just manifested in different ways. So now here we are, this new environment. I know nothing and everything seems out of my control. You and I aren’t really connecting because you’re working all of the time. And the minute you come home from work, you’re taking over baby duty while I’m going to sleep for 4 hours to then wake up for you to hand me back the baby so that you can go to sleep and start it all over again. Um, you know, and I, you know, most people maybe not don’t know this either, but neither one of us grew up with money. Um, even me more so probably than you. And I grew up in low-inccome apartments and my dad owning construction business where he tried his hardest to make it successful and it was for for several years. Um, but in the crash in 2008, my dad lost everything. And once again, I’m seeing the cycle of my family system kind of going through what I had always known. Um, and I felt I felt lost. I felt isolated. I mean, we’re living in this big house in the mountains. You would think, oh, all of her dreams have come true. Um, but the thing was, I never dreamed of any of that. It all happened so fast that it never really was a dream. I I came out here hoping for a su a successful business, but I didn’t have dreams of the houses and the money and the cars and the things and the vacations and the places and the stuff. Uh so here I am at home still trying to work, still trying to do billing from home while we’re raising two small babies. And you know, you had passion, you had drive, you had discipline. And I didn’t have any of those things. I I didn’t know what I wanted. I didn’t know who I was. I was suffering from extreme postpartum depression. Um I wanted nothing but to be with the boys all the time. I could not disconnect from them. And we didn’t see or hear each other back then the way we we do now. I mean, but ultimately through that entire process, I wouldn’t have wanted it to go any other way because it brought you and I closer together. It brought us a deeper meaning to our relationship than I ever thought either one of us thought possible. Um, you know, I mean, we we literally sat down and we’re like, okay, like we might get divorced. We we didn’t think that would come either, you know. And I remember asking you like, do you want to recommmit to us to this? Like, do you want this? because if you don’t want this, I’d rather us both walk away and still have enough love and care for each other that we can co-parent our amazing boys together. But I didn’t want to that to be the end. And I knew that we could be so much more if we were just both willing to like dip our toes in and see what that was going to look like. Because here we are at a pivot point, right? We’re either going to do this or we’re not. And you and I have come to that in several points in our relationship, even when we were first dating. You know, we got in our very first argument. And we sat down with each other in my truck and we’re like, “Are we going to do this? And if we’re going to do this, like, we’re going to do this. We’re going to kill this. We’re going to break family cycles. Like, we’re going to do this.” And I constantly think about that moment because there was a part of our consciousness, I swear, that knew our story in the stars before we even did. We had made it a point in that moment to change our family systems, to make things look different. And when it came time for us to recommmit to each other and figure out who we really were, I was committed to doing that with you and you were committed to doing that with me. And you know, here we are on our on our anniversary and I still choose you every single day. I wake up every morning and choose to be committed to you and our family. And I I couldn’t be more grateful. Honestly, there there isn’t a day that goes by that I’m not grateful for everything that we have, everything we’ve built. But it’s been a process. Mhm. And I think people often times forget that, especially with social media. We get to see the highlight reels. We get to see the family photos. We get to see the vacations, but we don’t see the dayto-day. You know, we don’t get to see the tough conversations, the the intimate moments where I’m crying and don’t know what to do. You know, when you’re breaking family cycles and systems, there are a lot of times when you’re like, I don’t I don’t know if I’m doing the right thing. Because we didn’t have these examples to run off of, you know, we don’t have parents necessarily that we can call and ask advice from like what does a healthy marriage look like in a in an argument like this? You know, how should I show up? We know screaming, yelling, fighting, cussing, cops, police, paramedics, like jail time, you know. So, it’s it’s been a process. It really has. But life is a journey. It is a it’s a journey full of different sized waves. Some are going to knock you down and it’s just are you going to get back up again? I mean, we have been knocked down so many times and every single time we come to each other and we ask each other, are we going to get back up again? And you know, even as your aunt says, Chris, you fall running uphill. Like, and I truly believe that about our relationship and about the lives that we’ve built for each other as well, is we’re going to continue to run uphill. We’re going to figure this [ __ ] out no matter what it is. And I am more grateful probably for that than every other thing in our relationship because at the end of the day, you can love somebody with your whole heart and still not make it work. There are conversations that had to be had and things that had to happen for us to get to where we are right now. And those first five years in business had to happen because all the stuff that pulled us apart as well helped put us back together. Yeah. It’s almost like the story of Peaks rolls right along with the story of Chris, Cassidy, Roric, and Derek. I mean, it really like when I when I started to see the program improve in the way that I really see it fit today, it was like was when we went to Survivor and we did these things. But I want to go back to So now we have two boys that are born into this like they’ve never known anything other than Peaks. Correct. And I have pictures in my phone just when they were little babies like sitting them on my desk and Ror’s chewing on a pen and Yeah. Um it’s turned out to be a very valuable thing for them too. Yeah. And they love Peaks. Correct. And they love what we do and they love how we extend the helping hand into the community and continue to do that. And it’s interesting too because I don’t think they could ever envision a world where like Peaks doesn’t exist and we’re not doing this thing. Yeah. You know. Yeah. I mean it really they don’t know life without it. You know, from the moment they came in, this has been what we do. And we’ve always talked so positively about what we do, how we do it, why we do it, and they hear that and they know that. And I think there’s this level of pride that they carry with themselves, like, “Oh, my mom and dad help people.” That makes them feel good. And to know, I mean, they know every single day, like we’re not perfect and we’re trying our best. And I think it has brought a light to their life that not every kid gets to see, which is acts of service and helping other people. They hide they hold that to the highest regard. You know, like my daddy and mommy, they help people and they mean that like genuinely and authentically mean that. I mean, and the the title waves that we’ve faced in business over the years, every single time the boys are like, “Nope. Keep moving. Keep moving.” Yeah. Yep. Well, how you going to fix it? Yeah. Oh, what are you guys going to do different next time? Yep. Exactly. I mean, they’re literally like our little accountability buddies. Like, nope. Nope. You said we walk through hard things, guys. Like, we’re going to walk through this hard thing. Yeah. I’m so grateful that they’re that way because when all else seems lost, it’s almost like a a north star. People are like, “You had a conversation with your nine-year-old.” I’m like, “Yeah, he was he was actually eight.” But because we’re so transparent with them and connected and live in the light, they make sure that we stay living in the light as well, which is a really, really cool thing. It is. And you know, I don’t think a lot of parents realize when you open your children up to the power of choice and conversation, what they will bring you with that. They have such a beautiful and untainted way of looking at the world. You know, they’re yeah, they’re nine and 10, but they don’t have the same biases that you and I did or nor the same experiences. You know, I was already angry by the time I was Roor’s age. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and and our kids are just not they they see us very clearly. I mean, you you know me, when I have a a bad mom day, I am the first one that’s going to shame myself and guilt myself for my behaviors or reactions or responses to certain things. And our kids are so gracious. So gracious. They understand. They hear us. They They’re heir. They’re heard. They’re seen. And I think it’s created this value within our little quad that is just untouchable. Yep. You know, even in in great times and tough times, it just doesn’t matter. Uh we all come together. We are able to share the big things, the little things, and all the above. We’ve really built this beautiful connection with our children. Um, and with peaks. Yeah. You know, I mean, there was years there with peaks where I was just like, God, we’re so imshed with this. We’re so imshed. Like, there’s no separation. It’s just peaks, peaks, peaks, peaks, peaks. How many times did you hear me say that? And there was almost times where I was resentful, but it was just because I think I knew that we had, you know, all the marbles in that jar. And they really were. Even in the in the first several years, all of our marbles were in that jar, you know, and I had a few marbles over here for me and the boys, and you had some marbles over here for your things, but the most of our marbles, they were in that jar. It was we needed that to work. That was our livelihood. That was what we came out here to do. But I don’t know if Peaks would have been as successful even as it is now if we wouldn’t have given it that time and attention that it deserved. Oh, for sure. That’s without question. You know, and at the same time, it’s like we’re our mission is to save lives and disrupt the industry through quality of care. And you know, we don’t process a lot of things in life, especially early recovery. We don’t we don’t process grief the appropriate way. You know, by the time we were five years in business, not only had I been to 15 funerals before we opened Peaks. Um, but what is that like for you as as the wife of a treatment owner, you know, how many times have I walked through the back door and been like, “We lost another person. I’m going to another funeral. We’re doing these things. were trying to build a relationship and a family and a company and a business, but the business has real real humans in it. Yeah. Trying to really really excel and thrive in their lives. And sometimes we get that unfortunate news, but by the time we were open for four years, I mean, it probably happened 10 times. People that were very near and dear to us, we were connected with. And what was that like kind of being on the sideline a little bit, but like walking real time with those stories? You know, it was really difficult. Even before we came out here, you and I had built several relationships in Prescuit that, you know, we had lost people. And I think over time working in recovery, you almost become desensitized a little bit to that, you know? I mean, even research outcomes tell you, oh, every one in four in treatment is going to make it. Like, that’s so bleak. Um, in the amount of people that we have lost over the years, it’s absolutely heartbreaking. It It really is. I mean, there were a few, not that I pick favorites, but there were a few that I was closer with um that really really shook us. I mean, shook our clients, shook our entire team. Um, we had met these really, really beautiful individuals who have now lost their lives and we spent so much time focusing on the story, right, and the stuff and the things. But that’s a human being. And usually in in treatment, we get to see those people at their best. They’re getting well. They’re doing the things. They’re they’re reconnecting with their family members. I mean, how many parents have we had over the years tell us, you know, like they’re sorry to us and that that time that they had with their child was the best time that they had with their child. Yes, it may have only been 90 days. They got their son or daughter got 90 days sober and they got 90 days with them. They got to see them clean. They got to see them healthy. They got to see them bright and alive. They got to hear them. They got to have a genuine conversation with them. They got to be authentic only to have their son or daughter die shortly after leaving treatment.
I don’t know if I can put into words
how that destroys you on a different level, though. You almost hope for the the shitty story. You’re like, “Oh, I hadn’t seen him in six months. He was doing his thing. You know, we set these boundaries. We haven’t talked to him. We don’t know where he is. Okay, he’s gone. But I don’t know. I I don’t know if being in this has really even taught me how to grieve. If anything, it’s taught me to be appreciative of the time that I get with these people, even if it’s shortlived. You know, honestly, when it comes to grief, losing your dad taught me more than anything. um that at the end of the day, the stuff that somebody does bad, you know, or wrong or didn’t show up right or had bad reactions or responses or they did this to me or they traumatized me in this way. When you really love and care about that person and they’re no longer here anymore, all you’re going to think about is the times that were good, the times when you felt loved, the times when they made you laugh. Um, and that I think is what people need to remember more than anything. Mhm. Yeah. I couldn’t agree more. You know, it was uh the first five years of Peaks like we did a lot. We overcame a lot. We did. And I remember I told Cassidy, I’m like, “Yeah, you probably need to go get some help.” And uh she’s like, “All right, well, I’ll go do that.” And so Cassidy is a courageous one. I just follow her on all of her endeavors. And and so in 2019, uh I convinced her that she was the problem and I was the solution. And so she went to the Meadows. She made this courageous decision to go into a week-long intensive. Why the weekl long intensive? Because of the story. Yeah. The big story, the relationship, what we had walked through at Peaks. the ungraved times, the miscarriages, the young adults that we lost, the families that were hurting and the pain that seemed insurmountable. And so you go to the Meadows and this started not just for me and my brother and a multitude of staff members going for this intensive, but you kind of kicked that off and you went to the survivor week at the Meadows. And I want to say from that moment forward things shifted in a pretty or I should I say like a more present and connected way. It did. I I had to do a lot of work there, you know. I mean, most people if they know my story know that I’ve always pointed the finger at my mother. Um but the reality is like we’re all a part of the story. We all have parts in the story and who you think is the villain isn’t always the villain. You know, the villain changes. Um, and I needed to see that. You know, even my dad who I put on a pretty high pedestal most of the time. He has choices that he has made that impacted our family system. And I didn’t agree with a lot of those choices, you know. And I had to I had to unpack all that. I had to unpack the the lack of love that I felt growing up, the lack of nurturing, the I was forced to grow up so quickly. Um, you know, I mean, you you’ve always said you’re such an old soul. Um, I had to unpack all of that to be able to look at what was currently and presently happening and how I could break that down and explain it, like why I was feeling unhappy. You know, back then I could tell you the story. I had zero issues telling the story of, oh, what got me here and who did this and who did that. But I couldn’t break things down to you in the way of like
I don’t like being talked to this way or when you talk to me this way, this is how it makes me feel. Um, and I I don’t even know if I could fully express how I was feeling. You know, I knew I was angry and I knew I was this and I knew this wasn’t working with all these like hard lines, but I couldn’t break it down for you. I couldn’t tell you when you do this. I couldn’t I couldn’t break it down that way. So, it was hu it was really huge for me. I I had never done experiential work like that before, ever. Um, it was really really eyeopening to me the amount of pain and trauma that I had been carrying and how I had dismissed those deeprooted things with the story. Yeah. For so long. And it helped me start to peel back the layers of the onion of me. You know, you’ve heard me use that a lot, but I I look at humans like onions, you know, kind of like in the movie Shrek where Donkey talks about Shrek being an onion and peel back the layers because like I said earlier, we are all really complex human beings. We have multitudes of stories and experiences and biases that ultimately are who we are. But I couldn’t sit down and really authentically tell you all of that with the pain attached to it without getting emotionally flooded, right? Uh so going to the Meadows was huge for me. It allowed me even to come back to you and have real honest conversations about what I needed. Um, not only in life, but from you as a partner and my husband and the father of our boys. And I couldn’t wait for everyone to go. I was like, “Oh, everybody needs to do this. This is great.” I mean, it wasn’t great. It was one of the hardest things I’ve ever done. I’ve never cried probably that much in a week ever. She’s saying something. Yeah. Yeah. I cry a lot. So, but it was It’s interesting about the Meadows thing because it was like prior to that we were using our best guesses and our rigidity and staying safe. Yeah. Staying safe, keeping our head down, being very like authoritarian, some behavior mod intermix into the early days of peaks. And then it like we we went and did this thing and it like peeled back the layers as you talk about, but it exposed a lot of things. But it’s interesting to me as you were just talking I was thinking to myself we we had to grow up and out of this old model into a new refreshing way that makes peaks peaks instead of like everybody else. And it’s interesting because that inflection point was right around 2019 2020 when like you go do your work, I go do my work and we come back and we’re like what is all the rigidity about you know and we start opening up this more holistic opportunity for our guest with the benefit of hindsight and the recovery 2.0 work that was done not just by you and by me but by a lot of our clinical team as well. they were going up there and they were doing trainings and that was really, you know, it was because of your courage in a lot of ways that the Peak’s model shifted because you were the first one to do that. Yeah. And it opened up an opportunity to to say to ourselves and ask ourselves really good question is like how many more people could we help if we sit with humans and we get to connect and experience the humanness together whereas before it was a very top- down view of things. And so I wanted to point that out too is like you kind of set that ball rolling, we didn’t know what kind of ball rolling, but somebody needed to get the ball rolling. Yeah. Which is profound and absolutely beautiful. And so even though you weren’t necessarily a part of the dayto-day, you were informing because you always informed me. You always ask really great questions. I say it on the podcast all the time, but like the best question that I think anybody can ask, but Cassidy asks it all the time is, “How does that make you feel? And I just think it’s one of the best questions to ask our boys. Um, it’s so thoughtful. It’s so caring. It’s so present because that doesn’t matter, but this does. And you’ve really delivered that not only in our household, but you’ve imparted that on me. And so I I sit at work all the time and I’m like, how does that make you feel? you know, so your hand and your grace um and your love um and your curiosity is like interwoven throughout the core of Peaks because I would come home and be like, “I’m doing this.” And you’d be like, “You got to think of this.” I’m like, “Fuck that.” But then the next day I’m like, “Hey guys, you think of this?” Oh, all the time. All the time. I would laugh because you’d be like, “I don’t know. I’m going to run that by so and so. I’m going to run that by so and so.” And then you’d come home the next day and be like, “So guess what? I talked to so and so and we’re going to do this. Isn’t that great? I’m like, I’m pretty sure that’s what I told you yesterday. Why not? You know, so funny. I truly believe that. I’ve never really allowed
and thank you for that. I’ve never really allowed I don’t think that to come in. But now that you say that, I’m able to look at peaks in this like broader broader way and see that yeah, everything we were going through in our relationship and how that changed and correlated to moves we made in peaks is is pretty profound actually cuz yes, right around that time when you know I told you you need to take a look at yourself man like you do this this and this and like it’s unhealthy and it doesn’t make me feel good and I don’t like it and I actually give it could give a [ __ ] less about any of that. It it gave both of us an opportunity to really take a look at ourselves and the value in which we held in ourselves. You know, here I am this stay-at-home mom now, which I said I would never do. You knew that. Like I was hyper independent. No man or person is ever going to fully take care of me. I am always going to be financially independent, have this, have that, whatever. And really, it boiled down to no, where can I have grace? Where can I bend? Where can I flex? What can I let go of? What doesn’t serve me anymore? What is an old version of me? Who is this person sitting in front of you today? How is she different than she was yesterday? How is she different than she was five years ago? How are you different? How is our relationship different? What changes are we currently making within ourselves and within our relationship and within our family and within our business that’s not only good for us, but it’s good for everybody. And they they came by so authentically. It it really was just this eb and flow of life’s journey and making that next best choice to be better than we were yesterday. That’s what it boiled down to. How can the business be better? How can I be better? And when I fall short, why, you know, what did this bring up for me? Why am I feeling this way? Like being curious like you I am so curious. You know that I want to ask a person on the street, why did you do that? And it’s not because I’m judging you. I’m genuinely curious. Why did you make that decision that you made? What led to that? And I I can see now how even some of that has rubbed off on you and the questions you ask and the way you move and eb and flow through things now. It’s it’s pretty amazing. It’s fun to watch. It’s fun to be a part of. It feels really nice to be more open-minded just to hear, right? Because I think whenever we’ve been most successful in life, not monetarily, but spiritually, mentally, and emotionally, it’s been like we’re just right there with each other and we’re moving through. Something I wanted to ask you is interesting. There’s probably three times in the last 11 years where I came home and I said, “I don’t know if we’re going to make it.” Well, actually, we’re not going to make it. And what was it about those moments? Because if you would have told me in those moments, you’re right, it’s over. we wouldn’t be having this conversation today. Like I leaned on you and I lean on our family in a very very serious way. And so what is it like in those moments and why did you make the decision to because because really the question is is like risk it all or turn the other way. Yeah. And why do you continually on those three moments that are at least two but I think three moments where things got really tough, why are you like keep going? Cuz
why the hell not? I mean, we have put so much into this already. I mean, we’ve talked about it this whole show. Our entire relationship is ebbed and weaved into Peaks and what we came out here to build. And not only that, I know the people that we’ve helped. Um, most of them we still stay in contact with. I mean, thousands of people. I would say half the people on my social media somehow, shape or form was once a part of Peaks. Um we have helped hundreds and hundreds of people if not thousands of people treated over 2,000 people now. Yeah. It’s Yeah. It’s And I don’t want to say we’re different. You know, everyone always wants to say we’re different or we’re doing this and you’re doing that and this is better than that. I think we are two authentic people that love and care about other humans and want to see them do well. That’s it. Yeah. It doesn’t matter how you do it, when you do it, what you’re doing when you do it. If you’re showing up with authenticity and love and care and compassion and empathy, those people are being seen. They’re they’re felt, they’re valued, they’re loved, they’re cared about. You know, we’re not doing anything that anybody else isn’t doing. But we’re also us. You know, I mean, how many times on multiple occasions have people been up to us and just been like, is that do you guys always like that? You know, you guys are both so authentic and real and I don’t know how to be anything other than that. I just don’t I don’t know how to show up any differently than how I show up. Even if it’s a little crass sometimes or a little feisty sometimes or a little off-kilter sometimes. Like I’m a human being too. I’m not always going to do things right. And right to who? Right in whose eyes, you know? And I think that that shines. It shines through and it shines through bright. I’m willing to just sit with you. Can I make whatever you’re going through go away? No, I can’t. You know, sometimes life happens and the circumstances are completely out of your control. And sometimes they’re not. So, if we just continue to put one foot in front of the other, live one day at a time, then hopefully collectively all of us together can make better choices, not only for ourselves, but for the people we love and care about. Yeah, I really agree with that. And I appreciate those moments because there’s you may not know this, but there there’s a multitude of decisions over all of these years where I’m like, “Whatever Cassidy says, I’m going with like 100%.” She’s going to tell me the truth. Yeah. She’s going to tell me exactly. She’s going to make sure that I’m not out in front of my ski tips. I’m not out punting my coverage. you’ve always seen me so clearly in times when I had a difficulty seeing that for myself and I just uh really appreciate that. You know, people in recovery, fathers, husbands, people in our world, they they need people and they need support and they I always do so much better when I have a north star and you’ve just kind of been that for me all these years and so I just couldn’t be more proud to have you on the show. Couldn’t be more proud to have you back in the outreach seat. And what are you most excited because I I I love the work you’re doing in the community already. Yeah. Because it’s it’s so aligned with our referral sources and the people in the community because you’re not Listen, Cass doesn’t like get paid because of referrals. In fact, she doesn’t really get paid at all. But um but it’s not about that. Like no, we have a thing. You have a thing. and if we can share that. Um, I’ve just really appreciated the way you’ve gone out into community and connected with people and the feedback I’m getting is like, you know, where the hell is this person been, you know? So, what are you most excited 11 years almost 11 and a half years into Peaks. Um, our kids have grown up in it. We’ve matured through it. I was in my 20s. You were in your earlier 20s. Um, but what are you so excited to take from you not only 13 years of marriage, but 11 and a half years in peak? 17 years of my recovery, your healing, your experience. What are you most excited to just like bring and share in the community? My authenticity. Just be real. Yeah. Just be real, right? You don’t have to sell anything to do that. No, I don’t want to sell anything. You know, even when you came to me and were like, you know, hey, I want you to do this business development thing, I was like, okay, that’s out of my comfort zone for sure. But the first thing I said was, well, I’m getting rid of that title. I’m choosing community outreach. And you were like, okay, why? I’m like, because I’m not developing anything. The business is already here. It’s been built. It’s been here and we have walked through the changes and there’s going to be several more changes. But I like the idea of community outreach because that’s what I want to be a part of is the community in some way, shape, or form. Does it mean every click of the community? No. But I’m sure is [ ] going to try to be a part because you know even like Bnee Brown says and she talks about belonging. People are looking for spaces to belong to. They they need to feel seen, valued, and heard. We talk about this all the time. Whether it’s something you like or don’t like, it doesn’t really matter. Does it bring that person joy? Does it make them feel good? You know, that’s why I always ask the boys like, “How does that make you feel?” Because I’m happy. Cool. You won football at recess. Like awesome, dude. You won for the fifth day in a row. I know you really love winning. But how does that make you feel? Yeah. Because that’s going to tell me more than, oh, I won football again at recess. I love that because it’s very hard to train somebody or bring somebody on for business development, community outreach, whatever it might be called, and train them on the idea of like, let’s just sit presently, connect, hold the space. It’s because everybody’s out there to get a quota. You know, people don’t just get paid their salaries and their bonuses without getting people into treatment. And so, I’ve really loved this new culture that we’re putting out into the community. Similar to the dinner we went to the other night. It’s like I will speak up once someone has spoken authenticity into the room. And that’s where Peaks connects. That’s where the conversation of Peaks comes in is in this authentic space of healing because everybody knows who and what Peaks is. Yep. And we just have to remind them that we’re still down here in Colorado Springs on an island doing our thing. And that’s honestly what I say at most events that I go to. I’m like, “Hey, we’re still here.” you know, and it’s it’s nothing against any other company that’s been bought out. I mean, heck, more power to them. I’m happy for them. Um, but we are still we’re a mom and pop facility, you know, we’re still very small on the grand scale of most of these programs. I mean, even some of the smaller programs, we’re smaller. Um, and I want people to know that and to see that and to love that because yes, we may be offering the same types of services that you are or we have this one extra service that you don’t or hey, we’re mental health primary. You’re substance abuse primary. How can we work together? Because at the end of the day, all of our goals should be the same. To help the client, to help their family, for these people to get well. I mean, period dot the end. whatever that wellness looks like for them, how can we be a part of it? Right? And that’s what I want people to know. I want people to know like if anything at the end of the day Peaks is authentic. Like I I’m human. Everyone that works there is human that we’re all just trying to do the best we can to help other people get better. Period. Not the end. We want to over complicate it and make it about all these big things or little things or oh they have a nicer house than we do or they have a nicer they have a cold plunging sauna in their program. We don’t you know and we we want to make it about the stuff and the things but at the end of the day is their CEO sitting down with the client drinking coffee with them asking them how their day was? Not very many that I know. Probably not. you know, are they getting are they getting invited by clients to come hear them speak because they want that person there? They want that CEO, that founder there because that person has built an authentic relationship with them and they want them to hear a part of their story that they may very well be a huge part of. You know, that’s the stuff that that I mean, I got chills. That’s the stuff that brings me in. you know, even when you weren’t even so much in the CEO role now that you’re now in and you would sit down with almost every single client and get a coffee with them or a smoothie with them or go for a walk with them. It starts small. You and I always say it with our kids, small moments that matter. like these small moments when somebody authentically shows up for you and holds space for you. They’re not making anything better. They’re not fixing the problem. They’re showing you love. They’re showing you care. They’re showing you authenticity. And they’re communicating with you. Yeah. People want to take up space sometimes. They just want to feel seen and heard. and they just want another human to sit there and possibly at the end give them a hug and say they’re doing great because at the end of the day, how many of us actually know what we’re doing, right? In hindsight, we’ll continue to reveal that to you that you didn’t know anything. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, that’s you’d be like, man, I don’t know [ ] at 40. Yeah. I mean, for real, right? I mean, how many times have we talked about that even now being almost 11 and a half years in business, we’re like, oh [ __ ] we didn’t know what the hell we were doing back then. But guess what? what we were doing somehow worked. Yeah. Because even then we showed up with authenticity. Yep. Yeah. And we were maybe a little more ego driven and we had these other things, but we still were authentically going into every room wanting every single one of our clients to be better. And that’s all we can really want for each other at the end of the day, too. I mean, what a freaking I’m so grateful you’re back in this role now and that you had some time to disconnect and reconnect. I’m glad I did, too, because it really helped me to see that it’s not important, but we are. Yeah. And it I was telling the boys the other day, I was sitting down with Garrick and um he was like, “Daddy, I I I’m really looking forward to Christmas.” And I was like, “Yeah, I’m just really enjoying sitting on the couch with you right now and like being here and just like really being in this moment because like it’s it’s all we have, buddy.” And I don’t know if it was because like we got to the edge of losing everything spiritually, mentally, emotionally, monetarily, and otherwise. Yeah. That I just it’s been so profound to have experienced a lot of that intensity and to be sitting here today feeling more connected than ever. And some of the problems still really exist in a real time. And so I’m grateful for every moment. We’ve been handing around this saying lately. I might have said it on the show, but our good friend Kyle um and I just we just have to your point like such great friends. We do. When I sit with them, you they ask good questions and they care. And anytime I sit with Kyle and you know this is I’d say, “Wow, buddy, I I just don’t know. Like I’m losing this and I’m losing this and I’m having to cash in this and this is scary.” And he’d allow me my peace and the whole thing. and and he would just look at me and he I I know you don’t love it when I say this, but like this this all had to happen. Yeah. I just think it’s brilliant. It’s magical. And to your point, last night I got invited, one of our guests was wrapping up their 30-day program. And um I got to come watch him speak. He invited me. Bobby was there, my business partner. And it was one of the greatest speeches I’ve ever been a part of for a guest. But what the extra credit was when we went around the room and he had a coin and it’s the Peaks coin and I started to see one by one nearly every man in that room was moved to shaking to tears to experiencing a tremendous amount of authenticity and emotion. And each one of them said, “This isn’t like me.” Yeah. Um but it was so special. Yeah. And I told Chris, I walked right into the facility this morning. I walked right up to the table of all the guys that were sitting there and I’m like,”Are you kidding me with last night?” And they’re like, “What?” I’m like, “Thank you so much for allowing me to be a small part of that process. I could have retired last night.” Well, not like monetarily, but like spiritually, but I could have retired. And I love that you mentioned that because that’s what you’re bringing into the community. We’ve carved out this niche. We’re special. We’re not any better or any worse than anybody else, but we’re certainly unique in the way that we approach humans. And that is something that you so eloquently delivered today is like from start to finish, the people matter. Yeah. And meaningful moments that matter matter the most. And if we can find oursel in connection in that space with individuals, we not I or me have this beautiful opportunity to accomplish whatever we want to accomplish one day at a time. Absolutely. It’s wonderful. It is. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you. Thank you for showing up for me. Thank you for trusting in me. Thank you for believing in me when I didn’t believe in myself. You are a hero. You’re my person and I love you very much. Thank you. I love you, too. Until next time, my beautiful people. Happy New Year.

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Episode 155Connection Over Isolation: The Soulful-Recovery Philosophy with Grant SchaeferWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/Dj-MywWxD9YListen NowDescriptionIn this episode of Finding Peaks, Chris Burns sits down with Soulful-Recovery’s Executive Director, Grant Schaefer, for an honest and inspiring conversation about modern recovery, personal transformation, and the power of connection. Grant shares his personal journey through addiction and recovery — the experiences that shaped his why and ultimately led to the creation of Soulful-Recovery. Together, they explore how virtual Intensive Outpatient Programs (VIOP) and telehealth services are breaking down barriers to treatment, allowing individuals to receive high-quality, individualized care without putting their lives on pause. Chris and Grant also discuss the importance of dropping ego in recovery, the evolving landscape of addiction treatment in Colorado, and why accessible, compassionate care is essential in today’s world. This episode offers both a practical look at how virtual therapy works and a deeply human story of purpose, passion, and the belief that recovery is possible for everyone. Thank you, Grant, for joining us on this episode. For more information on Soulful-Recovery, check out soulful-recovery.com

Talking Points1. Introduction to the Show 2. The beginning of Soulful-Recovery 3. Grant’s story 4. The benefit of virtual IOP 5. Looking into virtual therapy 6. The Soulful-Recovery difference 7. Community is key 8. Individualized treatment 9. Legislation in Colorado 10. The passion behind Grant and Soulful-Recovery 11. Dropping the ego 12. Grant’s WHY 13. soulful-recovery.com 14. Final thoughts Quotes

“It’s people before profit, too. And you can tell when a program does that”.– Grant Schaefer

Episode Transcripts

Episode -155- TranscriptsHow do we break down the stigma a to virtual treatment? Proving whether or not it does work or doesn’t work and then really honing in on the details that make it exceptional. So people are coming in with this concrete block of shame and it’s our job as holistic providers to begin to plane that block a little bit to make it a little less lighter so they can lift up a little bit taller so they can see the sun a little bit more clearly. There’s no one right way to be in recovery. It’s your journey and your path.
Hey everybody and welcome to another amazing, exciting and most certainly enthusiastic episode of Finding Peaks. Yours truly, host, founder, chief executive officer here at Peaks Recovery. So grateful to today to be joined um by a colleague and friend Grant Schaefer with one of my favorite treatment programs names right now, Soulful Recovery. Thank you. Welcome to the show, my friend. I appreciate it. Yeah, good to see you. I’m actually going to go off off of the list right now and ask you, how did you develop the name Soulful Recovery? Oh, well, so a was what domains are available that you think sound good? Let’s be honest, a lot of stuff’s taking. Yeah. But more importantly, what does it mean to you to be in recovery? For me, when I was in the pits of despair, I lost myself, right? My soul just left my body, my passion, my purpose completely disrupted and destroyed. And so when we were picking out names, I was like, I want it to include soul. And so we started searching around on domains. what was available, what wasn’t, and Soulful was available. And it felt immediately right. You know, when you hear that name and it just rolls off your tongue and you’re like, “Oof, there’s a lot of purpose behind that.” Yeah. That’s how Soulful was born. Yeah. I love that. It has like a very holistic vibe. Yeah. And that’s our program. Yeah. Yeah. It’s It has recovery in the name, too. Huh. Yeah. So, it’s Soulful Recovery. Only downside is there’s a dash in between. So, when you’re searching, it’s www.soulful-reoververy.com soulful-reovery.com and that’s the only part that gets me. Yeah. But other than that, the name is perfect. That’s great. It’s always tough in the domain, too. You’re like Peaks Recovery Centers-.com. It’s always nice when it’s like a little bit more condensed, refined. Yeah, I agree. But if it rolls off the tongue and we’ve had so many people like you who say that you just say it and it feels like it means something to you and that’s it. That’s the special secret of I think any good program is from the jump. What’s your first impression? I mean, we spoke the other week and we talked about anchoring bias and your first impression with a program. And that’s one of them. Yeah. The name. It’s very refreshing. And I haven’t really loved I’ve been thinking about over the years of like how do we get recovery out of our name? But because you have soulful first, it really informs something a little bit differently than I think a lot of recovery centers. Recovery center. Soulful recovery. It’s Yeah. I don’t like the name center at the end of it. I don’t know. Yeah, you feel Yeah. Yeah. No knock, by the way. Yeah. Deservedly taken. You’re stuck with it now. Yeah. Because it’s more like this. It’s more like this opportunity of like wellness and we want to be able to allow folks regardless of where they sit on the mental health or substance use spectrum to really see themselves in our process, see themselves in our name, be able to call that place home. And I think sometimes with recovery center, it kind of informs something a little bit negative and rudimentary. I would agree. It also sounds very formal and rigid. Yeah. Yeah. We’re going to do the 12 steps at this recovery center. Exactly. Well, I’m so grateful to have you on the show since I met with you, Grant and the crew up there. They do a virtual IOP doing a lot of great things in that space. We’ll get to that here in a few minutes. Uh but first, like how did you get into the field? I know you already told the viewers here that you’re in recovery, but maybe tell us a little bit about that process. Yeah. So uh maybe not obviously I went through my own journey in recovery. Uh it was long, it was crappy, it was all the really difficult things that you go through first as a teen and then in college and then you know through my 20s. Uh and the guy who who sent me to a program uh ultimately was my salvation you know to some regard at least. Uh, I came back into Colorado about a year and a half after being clean and he said he was leaving his company to start a consulting business for treatment programs. And I was like, at the time I was a shopper at Whole Foods, you know, just with my earbuds in, just putting groceries in, just trying to make a buck and trying to keep my head afloat and not mess up. And he’s like, why don’t you come work with me? I’ll show you the ropes. And so I did that and you know you know when you’re working in treatment you see the good stuff, the bad stuff and the oh I never want to touch that kind of stuff. It got to that point. So I knew I liked working in treatment. I knew I wanted to work in treatment you know after about six months with him but I didn’t know I but I knew I didn’t want to work with him. So that was kind of the impetus for getting into treatment and then figuring out how I wanted to pivot from there. Yeah. I like that a lot. Yeah, that’s it. Reminds me of the first place I worked. I was like, “Yeah, the good, bad, and the ugly.” Oh, yeah. You know, all of it in there. How long did you work for that company and where were you uh where were you living at the time? So, my parents I told my parents I wanted to move to Colorado. They’re like, “Great, we’ll move with you cuz we love you that much. We love you that much.” And you know, parents want to do their best. And you know, a lot of our family was migrating out here. So, they bought a place in Broomfield. I lived with them. Cool. And I worked with I had just started working with him. It was about three months in and then I got my first apartment in Denver where I met my now wife. Cool. And uh another thing I’m grateful that recovery has brought me. Yeah. And and I worked with him for about again about six months. Okay. Um learning kind of the ins and outs, the dos, the don’ts, the the where you can have fun and where you should never touch. Yeah. And that was very formative. Yeah. Where are you where you guys from? So, we’re from Jersey. I was born and raised in Jersey. Okay. Uh, East Coaster. There you go. And And everyone always talks about how cold the winters are here. I’m like, this doesn’t feel that bad. I was just talking to somebody about that. I was like, you ever been to New York City on Christmas? It’s freezing. It’s like 25, but it feels like minus 30. Oh, yeah. It’s It’s bad. God forbid you’re from, you know, the great up north and Yeah. Try telling someone like from Calgary or something like that, right? They’re like, “You think you’re cold?” Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s wild, man. It’s just a different It’s because of the humidity, right? Yes. Yeah. That makes a lot of It’s wet. It’s a wet winter versus a dry winter. And it’s just It’s all the difference. Yeah. Well, I want to talk about what Soulful Recovery does and why. And I’ll be honest, um until I’ve met a couple, not not a handful, but a couple Yeah. people like yourself and one other outpatient program doing it virtually, I had thought, especially prior to the pandemic, I’m like, “This is like this doesn’t make any sense. I would never do virtual therapy, but the pandemic informed a different way of kind of tackling this thing. And so I know you guys do have a sophisticated approach to what you do. And there’s one other program um that I really really love as well. But maybe talk to me a little bit about like why virtual IOP? What was it for you? Because it sounded like you had an impatient experience, right? Did you follow it up with any virtual for yourself? No, I yeah, I didn’t follow up with any afterare really. Like I found a recovery community in Denver, started surrounding myself by people who were also in recovery that all that good afterare stuff. Yeah. But just to clarify the question too, is it why virtual treatment or did I just fall into that? Yeah. Like what do you see the benefit of virtual counseling as opposed to in person? You can tap communities that are resource deserts, uh, most vulnerable populations that might not get it. And you can reach people who who might need it most, who for some reason can’t get to an inerson program because it’s not available. They’re working two jobs and their only time is available is, you know, in the evenings and driving 15, 30 minutes an hour away isn’t isn’t an option. They have kids at home or they can’t drive. They have a DUI. There’s so many reasons that it’s needed and I think the stigma really lies in and rightfully founded by the way is that in the pandemic it didn’t work all that well. Now did it not work because treatment programs were they were meleeing on their back foot or did it not work because people were socially isol isolated already so the outcome measurement data wasn’t good. You need a little bit of both. Yeah. Yeah. So our program well a was born out of a couple like circumstances. The first one was I again I was a shopper at uh at Whole Foods. I had just started working in residential treatment at that like right after and I didn’t have that much experience as an as a as a manager. So I wasn’t a trusted founder. No one knew I could balance a bud a budget sheet. I had no proof of it. So finding money was hard. And when I went to go meet someone who, you know, I met at a networking event, Sam Peterson, Mind Spa, he Yeah, Sam’s a cool guy. Yeah. Uh, you know, he took me down there, showed me around the office, and, you know, I was talking to him about the woes of trying to fund a program. He’s like, why don’t you just do virtual? And that’s when it kind of hit me of like, okay, I’d never a considered it and b does it work, right? So, I actually started playing around with that, uh, doing some research, you know, like market research, um, all the all the businessy stuff that you do on the back end and then asked myself the fundamental question, does Colorado need more inerson programming? Does it actually need more virtual programming? And that’s when things clicked. Sam had it right. I should start really investing in virtual program, figuring out what people did well, what they didn’t do well. How do we bring this to fruition? And so, thanks Sam. Appreciate you. He’s been on the podcast before. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Hey, man. And Ron, Dr. Ron Schwinkler. Oh, sweet. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, good people. And I, you know, I appreciate them for kind of giving me that kick in the direction that ultimately became Soulful Recovery. So, we we launched it with the idea of how do we how do we break down the stigma a to virtual treatment, proving whether or not it does work or doesn’t work. Mh. and then really honing in on the details that make it exceptional. What does that look like? Yeah. And so we’ve we found our secret sauce. We figured out what needs to happen to make it not just like from a business standpoint like fiscally feasible. But to have good outcome measurements that actually support people and so that’s what we built out. I love that. You know, I started my virtual journey on the front end of the pandemic as well. started doing sematic experiencing therapy. So, I became a believer pretty quick. When you say sematic experiencing, what are we talking about here? Like sematic work, like SCP, like sematic experiencing practitioner. It’s the uh it’s the modality. It’s developed by Peter Lavine, um who’s a fellow at the Meadows Behavioral Health. We love the Meadows around here. Yeah. Uh but Peter Lavine developed this sematic experiencing and and the idea is or the fact if I will um that the body keeps the score very vessel Vanderolk and the trauma lives on the vagus nerve in the body and it gets stuck and it informs the way we show up how we connect how we disconnect how we walk around and uh ambulate in this world. And so with sematic work we go into the nervous system we go into the body and we get out of the head that’s trying to keep me safe or kill me depending on the day. Um, and we go into we go internal and we move that energy on the Vegas nerve, which I’m no doctor or scientist, but it it starts back here and it goes down to the ankles in the Vegas nerve. If you’ve ever felt your Vegas nerve light up, you’ll know exactly where it is. Oh, yeah. And so, it’s about just moving that trauma out of the body so it’s not informing in a maladaptive or brilliant strategy way my every decision. So, I I love sematic work. Yeah, it’s really cool. It’s kind of closely aligned with EMDR in a way. Um, but yeah, so I I started my virtual journey and I remember my first session I’m like, “This is dog shit.” Thinking as we were about to get on and then all of a sudden I’m having this experience that maybe I wouldn’t have otherwise had in front of her and I was like, “You know what?” She’s like, “So, can we continue the virtual?” I’m like, “Yeah, this is actually working really well.” And what we’re starting to see essentially from like 2019 or early 2020 on is that people are spending less time in treatment. There’s a lot of resources online. People don’t need to spend 90 days in a program. They can get these virtual components and the components are far more sophisticated now. And so we’re starting to see it is people that’s what people are wanting. They don’t want a 90day IOP where you got to come three to five days a week, three hours a day. People have lives. These are mature adults, young adults. They’re moving and grooving and we don’t want to hold them back from that. Exactly. So I really love what you guys are doing. How would you say because I have I have a couple favorite providers. are one of them for sure. But what what differentiates Soulful Recovery from your run-of-the-mill um online intensive outpatient program? Yes. So, there’s a couple things. A, we do IOP level of care. So again that more group therapy focused modality which is key to building culture support systems uh lived experience through others bring in alumni to come speak to our groups so they get to know hey you know we’ve been gone two years and it still works so and this is how I did it and this keeps me going. So that works too and then the other thing is a lot of programs who are in person usually start IOPS or VIOPS as well. We’ve seen a massive uptick and there are plenty of people who do it well and there are plenty people who don’t do it well. I bet. Yeah. And I’d say when you’re choosing a program, when I’m choosing a program, do I want to go to a place that does all levels of care, detox, res, inperson IOP, VIOP, and then outpatient stuff, or do I want to go to someone who specializes it, right? And I’d ask the same person, you know, if you have a tumor in your brain, do you want to go to general surgeon or do you want to go to neurosurgeon? Exactly. We’re the neurosurgeon. Yeah. And so we specialize in it. It’s all we do. It’s our bread and butter, baby. We We figured out how to do it. We figured out how to do it well and we’ve continued to add different resources. We just launched our app like a year ago and our reward system that we built in there has amplified our attendance rates, uh, client satisfaction outcomes, all these key metrics that we’re looking for to say what we do actually helps people. Yeah. And it’s a difference that they haven’t experienced in another program. Yeah, that’s what I was going to ask you. That’s brilliant. I didn’t know you had an application. That’s really, really cool. Yeah. How do you account for attendance? Because that was one of the things where I’m like, yeah, people aren’t going to get to group. That’s why we provide rides and this that and the other thing. And I, you know, I would agree if you run, if you compare the analytics of attendance rates to an inerson program versus a virtual one, I’d say that virtual does dip. Okay. Uh yeah, not trying to misinform there. The degree to which it does dip is dependent upon the program’s um infrastructure. How do they track down clients who aren’t showing? How do they admit clients who are the right clients who will show? And these are that’s the secret sauce. That’s what makes us different is because we we can tell in our admissions process if that person’s probably going to be successful in virtual environments, let alone our program. Yeah, that’s really really cool. Is group size still the same thing on the virtual side of thing? Yeah. Okay. Um we Yeah. Forget the state limits. We cap our clients usually at around 10. Beautiful. Whereas you know in person programs you can go up to 12, you get another therapist in there, right? Yeah. You can you can budge the attendance. I love that you guys are doing that. You know, our our core value or excuse me, our mission is to save lives. Our top core value is to disrupt the industry through quality of care. I was just sitting with the BHA. I love you, right? Yeah. I was sitting with the BHA last week. I’ve been doing this while, you know, and we’ve been in Colorado 11 years. And I’m sitting there with our new surveyor and she’s like, “How many people do you have in group?” I’m like, “Well, you know, here in the residential program, we never go over 12 and in the PHP program we’re right around 12. And I know the rule is 15, but we generally standard 12.” And she said, “Good.” cuz we’re really cracking down on that. And I was like, are you really? Cuz I would love if you did. There’s a bunch of programs that I don’t think I’d have you got up the street, you know. And so it’s quality of care, man. It’s people before profits, too. Yeah. And you can tell when a program does that. Yeah. And then obviously it informs outcomes. It’s it’s like taking a step back today so I can step further tomorrow. Oh yeah. You know, it’s a really beautiful thing. thing and I just I love I I knew I was, you know, we were we had some um some relation both personally and professionally, but then I hear stuff like that and I’m like, you know, that’s why Grant’s sitting here today. We’ve been vibing from day one. Yeah, man. Yeah. Yeah. Ever since that dinner, we were we were at a dinner. My favorite thing cuz I’m a big foodie. Yeah. So, we’re at a dinner and and our table is like half full. So there’s like let’s call it 10 chairs and there was only five or six of us but we got the same appetizers and the same entre and all the same [ ] to our table. So I’m just like and it was all good. So good. God, what’s that place called? We got the kitchen. The kitchen. Yeah. If you haven’t been, you ought to go. Yeah. Oh my god. Yeah. And I got to meet your incredible wife as well. And you know a good a relationship is good when you literally can’t stop talking to that person and it doesn’t matter the topic. It can r like a I I was immediately attracted to you because you went into such highlevel insights things that only other founders and CEOs understand not just from the numbers but from the vision that you’re trying to put out into this world. Yeah. There’s only a couple people who can fully understand that. You know when you’re when I was a when I was a tech I didn’t think about that because all I was thinking about is you know making sure that a client didn’t relapse or did I collect that UA or is this medication really PRN right? you know, focus stuff that you know, tech’s siloed and don’t focus on, but when you’re a CEO, you get to have those intimate conversations with people who are very knowledgeable like yourself, and I love that. Yeah, it was really nice. You know, I um I really enjoyed that dinner because I’m always down to have a good conversation. Yeah. But if you want to talk about like, you know, how many IOPS do you do? How many outpatients do you do? How many, you know, it’s like, no, let’s do you want to have an authentic conversation about helping people and if we can connect on that. Oh yeah. Then we can talk about this other stuff. So I really really love that. And from the moment that we had the opportunity to sit down, Cass’s like, “You got to meet Guy’s Grant.” I’m like, “He’s right next to you, babe.” You know, he’s like, “Yeah.” So it was it was really cool. And I would have um gone to that dinner over and over just to have that connection. Oh, you know, thousand times over. I went home to my wife and I said the same thing. I was like, you know, I was on the fence about whether or not to go and I think it was the best thing that’s happened to me in the last like 3 months. Like, yeah. Nothing like good quality connection. The things that you miss when you’re an active addiction. Mhm. Yep. Or when you’re trying to sell something, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. It’s tough because everybody I mean, at the end of the day, it’s business. People are trying to sell something, but I think there’s a much more connected way to get there, you know? I agree. So, like if we can align personally and professionally and then that’ll just happen. It happens organically when you least expect it, when you don’t try to manipulate it, when you don’t try to push your agenda onto it, when you let when you let go and you let God. Yep. Things fall into place, man. Yeah. Were you a 12step guy? No. Never. I’ve worked them. I think everyone should work them regardless of if you’re in recovery because you’ll understand yourself a lot better than if you hadn’t. Mhm. But for me, it was all about connecting through things that I’m passionate about. I love that it’s music, working out, um, playing games, throwing darts. I love that. I’m actually glad I asked you that question because I didn’t think I was going to get that response, but it it’s an important response, I think, for the viewers, especially young adults. You know, we both get sober at a young age and it’s like, okay, now I have a life sense of mediocrity and shame. This ought to be great. But then you realize like I was thrusted into the 12step way of life because at the time they didn’t understand communities, communities, communities, communities. And that’s what worked though too. I mean at that time all the data said 12 steps keeps people clean. So we’re going to force that and push that and push that message. But there are plenty of people out here who don’t agree with that. They actually need a more holistic based approach like I have. But I love that your approach because you get to do something you’re passionate about. Oh hell yeah. Like if if I can do something I’m passionate about it means I’ll do it for free and I’ll do it sustainably one day at a time. And so I I love 12 steps. I was in it for seven years. We’re not knocking it. We’re not knocking it for sure. But I just want to introduce to people who are maybe uh weary of picking up the admissions phone to get on another call with an admissions guy who does a substance use program who’s going to put a box over your head and say, “You’re an alcoholic for the rest of your life. Do these 12 steps or die.” That that is an approach, but there’s a multitude of other approaches that are producing and procuring amazing outcomes. And that’s what we preach at Soulful. Yeah. There’s no one right way to be in recovery. It’s your journey and your path. And ultimately, you’re going to live with the consequences of what you choose to do. Yep. So, here’s all the tools. Here’s the different types of things that work. And you know what? If you discover a new thing that works for you, man, hell yeah. Share it with me. Yeah. Let us know. Yeah. And if you know what, if going to meetings, getting a sponsor, working those steps is what keeps you clean, keep doing it. Keep showing up. do a 90 and 90, you know, memorize a big book back and forth. That’s great. It’s not what worked for me and it’s not what works for everyone and that’s okay, too. The biggest thing, though, is how do we prevent stigmatizing and alienating those who don’t agree with AA and who don’t naturally gravitate to it and I think that’s where the holistic based approach comes in. And that’s where our philosophical approach to treatment comes in. I love that, man. Alleviate the shame instead of compound. Exactly. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And to understand too, it’s like substance users, even folks with mental health, um, non-substance related issues, mental health, the shame. We got to be able to address that that like there’s nothing you could say to the individual that they haven’t already told themselves times 100. And so people are coming in with this concrete block of shame. And it’s our job as holistic providers to begin to plane that block a little bit to make it a little less lighter so they can lift up a little bit taller so they can see the sun a little bit more clearly. Yeah. you know, so I love that you guys do that. So I I like to ask this question too and it’s not I used to we the core value of disrupt the industry through quality of care used to be like I’m just going to be disruptful to be disruptful. Remember when my brother and I developed it, it was like because we’re peaks and you’re you. And it’s it’s not like that at all. It’s to disrupt the industry through a one conversation at a time. It’s um one individual at a time, one guest in our program at a time seeing value in hearing them disrupts this thing that I call behavioral health. And so one of my questions to you is like if you could change anything about the industry, what would it be and why? One of the biggest things holding Colorado back, specifically our behavioral and mental health services, is legislation. Are you familiar with Taber? Uh-uh. So 1992 they passed uh this Taber law that essentially restricts the amount of God I’m going to butcher this too so I don’t want to speak out of turn. A I’m not a legislator. You know I know a little bit about this topic. He’s summarizing. So there’s it it limits the amount of taxes we can allocate toward Medicaid and other services in Colorado. Caps the spending budget. Okay. And it’s tied to inflation and population size. But the thing that happened since 1992 is Colorado’s boomed in the last 33 years. So what we’ve seen is uh the needs of the community in Colorado outpacing the fiscal resources we’ve allocated to it 33 years ago. So what’s happened is you have a bunch of people who need Medicaid. You got 1.2 million in Colorado who are Medicaid dependent. And and when our when legislation hasn’t caught up where it’s really hard to revise, our legislators are taxed with two things. They can either cut back Medicaid services, which is what we’re seeing, or they can limit where they spend their resources, like schools. And we’re seeing a little bit of both. So, you’re seeing if you’re a Medicaid provider right now like we are, they’re cutting back rates. Big one. And now $25 a therapy session doesn’t seem like a lot, but it adds up. Same with every other service that you can bill for. They’re cutting out some codes altogether. So, you can’t bill for certain ones. And then they’re limiting the amount of times you can render that service. So, what it’s doing is what what is needed is now no longer a profitable business model. I.e. be sober living. I think you might agree with me on that. Yeah, I knew you would. So, sober living is a and we’ve seen the boom happen in Colorado with sober living. Would you agree? Absolutely. And the reason that boom happened is because the business models for that changed. They were more profitable because they were able to charge for ancillary services like peer coaching. Right. But what we’ve seen in the last since July 1st and what we’re going to see in January 2026 is all that crunched back in because we’re in a billion dollar deficit, right? So, we’re stuck in what will be a cycle of reduction in services, namely Medicaid, population services, and and you’re going to see programs like sober livingings really struggle. If they don’t adapt, they’re going to die. Yeah. And so my what I would say to answer your original question is more sober living programs and then higher Medicaid rates to be able to afford to expand those sober living programs and provide more ancillary services. But we’re going to be stuck in this cycle of regurgitate and repeat and failure unless you adapt your lines of business. So yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I didn’t know the but I’d like to change that as well. You know what’s interesting is not just Medicare, but all of our top five f uh top five big payers in the United States, Blue Cross, Edna, Sigma, United Healthcare, you name it. They’re oftentimes producing and informing their rates through Medicare fee schedules. Yeah. And so for those who don’t know, CMS is the Center for Medicaid Services and they have, you know, programs like what you’re saying, like BCBS will say, I’ll pay you 110% of what the Medicaid services. So if you get paid $100 for therapy, we’ll pay you $110 for that, which is what Chris is talking about. It’s interesting, too, because they’re And I wonder if that’s going to be impacted on the private insurance side because last I checked, most of those companies, if not all of them, are fedally funded. Yep. And additionally privately held. Yep. are publicly held. Excuse me. Yes. Right. Yeah. So, it’s very interesting. So, I wonder if there’s going to be and we’re seeing it on our side of things, but I didn’t know that it was this Medicaid thing informing it, but now that you’re talking about it, it seems to be Well, for what it’s worth, I’m talking about Colorado Medicaid. Okay. Specifically, but yes, federally speaking to Medicaid’s going to with the big beautiful bill, I imagine things will be also taking a hit federally. It’s a big wonder to me why we have private insurance anyway. Yeah. Well, people have been trying to solve for it forever. Some countries have figured it out. Ours hasn’t. Yeah. Unfortunately. What is your favorite thing about soulful recovery? Like your daytoday job, your passion, your purpose. Obviously, you’re a business guy. You love numbers. You know, actually, not well, I do like numbers. I love people. I So, when we first launched, I had this golden rule for myself. I will always take on at least one client for peer coaching. Full stop. That’s cool. I you now I have a case load of three but like and it expands based on needs and if we have capacity or you know where my where my capacity is at personally. Yeah. But connecting with the people who we serve boom that’s it. And if I’m not there on the grounds understanding their impact and and feeling it and being part of it and being able to provide direct care, then I lose a little bit about why we’re doing it and I get stuck behind a spreadsheet. And that’s not how I want to show up as, you know, an owner, let alone a person in recovery or someone who’s trying to make change. I mean, at the my core being is helping people. Yeah. Always has been. That’s always been fundamental to who I am. And so I’ve always wanted to retain that. But to answer your question, what I love doing at Soulful is everything. I love that my mind gets to bounce around from like, you know, like in a computer you have like 20 tabs open. I love bouncing around from those 20 tabs every day. It’s perfect for my ADHD brain. And now I know why my parents always told me that some of the best CEOs have ADHD. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz when you can find a passion, you can focus on it. Yeah. Oh, it’s a fun game. Oh, yeah. And you can still see everything with the greater vision in mind. So you can bounce around from those 20 tabs knowing that you have an entire window over here labeled vision. Yeah. And you get to build those 20 tabs as they should fit within that global vision. And it’s the coolest thing ever. It really is. Putting the pieces together is a I know you love that. Yeah. We’ve talked about it. Yeah. And I you know one of my questions was what keeps you so passionate on tough days? But I think you just defined it and I actually really relate to that. Yeah. Well, I’d say the other thing, too, is, you know, something else you probably relate to is when you’ve gone through it yourself. Yeah. You remember what it’s like to be in that pit of despair. I mean, I keep a note in my wallet and when I ever think, “Oh, you know what? A a little bowl of weed sounds like a good idea.” I read that note and I’m happy to read it. Wallet or whatever. Oh, that’s cool. Good idea. Yeah. Yeah. And so, I read that note every now and then. It’s called the truth and it’s my Don’t forget the truth. Yeah. Cuz your truth. It’s my truth. Yeah. And every time without failure I get shivers down my spine and I remember what it’s like to be that kid who’s uncomfortable his own skin, that business owner who’s uncomfortable in his own skin, and that person who needs help navigating. And I can look back at that note and remember what it was like to be in that place and how I never want to be there again. And I get the opportunity even if it’s with one client or with my staff when we have our staff meetings to project how are we helping this person today? What is their need? What is their experience within our program? How do we make meaningful change for one life? Yeah. And that’s it, man. Yeah. I love that. That’s profound. I really love owner operators with recovery stories and a willingness to gain business acumen. Yeah. You know, it’s it’s really really cool that you know you see so many not so many but you know handful of places like you know people don’t know their CEOs and don’t know their owners and people come to Peaks and they’re like what do you do here? I’m like I kind of front as a recovery cheerleader and then eventually I’m like I’m a founder here. They’re like wow that’s so cool. I never tell people I’m the founder. Yeah. I don’t like doing it. I’m always like, I’m just a dude in recovery. How can I help you? Yeah. I’m the pom pom guy. Yeah. And then and we’re at meetings and or like Gabby and I go to networking events and I’m like, you know, I work at this place called Soulful Recovery. I never let anyone know I’m like the CEO unless Gabby’s like should tell them, you know, and I’m like, I don’t I don’t need to. That’s cool. Cuz at the end of the day, I want to hear people’s perspectives without me having to interject. The moment you say it’s your company, conversation changes. Conversation changes. Perspectives change and you can’t have those or you can, but it’s sometimes difficult. They’re they’re clouded in biases and heruristics. Yep. I agree. It’s so interesting you say that. My business partner, one of them, uh, Bobby, he does all the hikes. So, four days a week, they’re going out to drum circle, garden of the gods, and nobody knows he’s an owner. Yeah. He’s just like shooting the [ ] just having a good time. He’s like, “Dude, I don’t want any of them to know.” He’s like, “They share openly and we talk about it.” I’m like, “Yeah, fuck.” So, excuse me. You know, but just like getting people to speak openly and not feel like And you know what? That speaks tremendous lengths not just for Bobby but for your program. The fact that it’s I think personally like an ego thing. Mhm. But you know if you let your ego die and you’re able to just say I’m just this person showing up today how I am hopefully in a good way. Yeah. Like Bobby on those hikes like you when you’re talking with new clients coming in. That’s the difference between people who are comfortable in their own skin and who show up to be them best their best selves. Personal beliefs. I agree. Yeah. I agree with you. I do this um I spoke last night at our alumni group. So impatient clients, impatient guests and handful of alumni and I played this song before I walk out. Which one? Diamond by Rihanna. All right. Shine by Diamond. Not what I thought you completely. I’m going to give a shout out to to Kathleen Murphy. She’s one of my favorite clinicians. She’s in Southern California. I saw her at TJ Woodward’s concert. Not concert conference last year. What is the name of the freaking conference? I’ll think about it. Not this. Emergence. Oh, okay. Emergence 2024. I’m in Emergence 2024. Best conference I’ve ever been to. Very small, very intimate. I never had a conversation that was under 15 minutes. Okay. I mean, just each and there’s only about four, three, 400 people. Very intimate, hand selected. So, they’re doing um they did a panel and and I I was on the panel, not because I was doing anything, it was because I sponsored it. Yeah. So, I was on the panel, but before me, this lady named Kathleen Murphy got up. And she has the most beautiful energy, the most beautiful soul. And you can just tell when she talks like just a seasoned clinician. Oh, yeah. And she goes, “Before I speak, I like to play a little song, you know, to like she starts doing it. She’s dancing around. She has the whole room, man. the whole room’s doing the thing. I’m like, “This is amazing.” So, I spoke last year. I was speaking at um our uh executive clinical director, Dr. Prince, is also the executive director at a nonprofit here in town called ECOC. Okay. Educating children of color. It’s a really cool nonprofit. We’ve had um Magistrate Regina on the show. She’s the founder and they do this really cool thing. So, she she plugs me in to go talk to the kids sometimes. I’ll go talk to the kids and I started playing that song. Shout out to Kathleen Murphy. So last night I was like, “Hey everybody, like a little song to get me going here.” And I play it and I’m dancing around. Um, and I tell the story of when I saw Kathleen Murphy, I thought to myself, boy, does she seem really comfortable in her own skin. And every time I play that song, it’s an exercise to get into my body, to be present, to be comfortable in my own skin. And so if you can shine bright like a diamond and dance around and frankly I um I never knew I could shine bright like a diamond. I thought I loved you peak level before. Pun intended. That just brought it to new heights, man. Let’s go. Yeah. People are blown away. I’m like maybe you guys know this song. They’re like, “Oh, no way. He’s doing it.” It’s a little indie song. Shine bright like a diamond. Well, it’s been phenomenal having on your show. I want to end with this one thing and you’ve answered it in a myriad of ways but I just kind of want to hone in on it specifically is what’s your why? Ooh, what’s our why? Well, I I have answer that in some other ways, but I’ll leave you with this.
My business partner and our wives, we went, you know, the recovery walk, the um advocates for recovery. So, we hosted the photo booth um this year and we, you know, we didn’t know what we were fully getting into, but uh we saw everyone come in, you know, they did their recovery walk and they had their families there, they had signs, you know, pride flags, all the things that you want to see when you’re like, you’re living your best life, your best sober life. Mhm. And we had clients come up to us after, former clients, alumni who were still in recovery, some who I knew, some who, you know, we haven’t had contact with, but they’re still clean. We’ve had we had uh current clients come up. And hearing someone say, “You changed the course of my life.” is the most powerful motivator in the world. You know, I uh I used to be a firefighter and EMT. I saw and I was really into emergency care and like I thought to be the best person I could. That’s how I was going to help people, right? Is in those moments when they’re going through their most traumatic things. And I didn’t realize that it’s actually or in addition to people who are in early recovery or still in the pits of despair and need someone to just reach down with a hand and help pull them out. And and that was it for me. Just being able to speak with our alumni, getting to see clients, and seeing them in person and their smile on their face was just it made everything, all the sleepless nights, all the worrying about money, all the the mortgages, the the things that you’re like, man, is this going to work? Is what I’m doing helping people? Like, it makes it it makes everything worth it. Yeah. And I would do it a thousand times over. I love that, man. Yeah. I love that. one of my uh favorite podcasters. I’ve said it on the show a million times. Coup’s probably like, “Dude, shut up already.” Um but Rich Roll, he’s in long-term recovery. Um he swam at the University of Stanford, just about lost everything, and now he’s like 20 years sober. But he he has this quote, and the people I bring on the show, but more specifically right now, what you just said reminds me of this, and I think that’s why we’re here today and we’ll be here tomorrow, is when the heart is true, the universe will conspire to support you. Yeah, I’ve heard that before. Yeah. Every time. Goosebumps. It’s so good. Like when I say that, people are like, “Whoa.” I’m like, “Stop my quote.” Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So, and and I and I I feel that in our interactions and I feel that in our opportunity to help um walk with people one day at a time on this journey. So, it’s the coolest job in the world. It’s rad. It’s the coolest job. It beats firefighting by any means. Don’t you love when people are like, you know, you tell them what you do for a living, they’re like, “Oh.” I’m like, “Poor thing. What? What are you talking about?” Every time it’s always a sympathy must be so hard for you. I’m like sometimes but it’s actually pretty freaking awesome. It’s amazing. Like the people, the places, the stories, the connection. I mean everything. It hits all the right notes. There’s like a beautiful symphony that you’re currently writing and the end of our lives. I’m hoping to hear it and just feel proud. Yep. I love that, man. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. It’s been an absolute privilege and an honor to connect with you again. I look forward to many more of these. We love to bring you on quarterly, talk about what Soulful’s doing to change the industry one day at a time and more specifically lives one day at a time. So, thank you so much for coming on, Grant. Love you, man. Let’s go, buddy. I love you, too, man. Thanks again for having me. You got it. Absolutely. For anybody, this is the holiday season. Um, you know, if you’re finding yourself disconnected, isolated, all alone, reach out. There’s a tremendous amount of resources. [ __ ] our admissions team will just talk to you. Yes. Listen first, solve later. Just have a conversation. Just know that there’s some crazy guys here in Colorado that are thinking about you and care deeply about your success. So, until next time, peace.

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Episode 154Finding Home in Healing: Branden Barranger’s Story of Growth at PeaksWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/uERspSzRf40Listen NowDescriptionIn this episode of Finding Peaks, Chris Burns sits down with Peaks Recovery Centers’ Operations Manager Branden Barranger to explore his inspiring journey from program participant to leadership. Branden opens up about his path to Peaks, the pivotal moments that shaped his recovery, and how grief and self-discovery helped him find purpose and identity. Together, we discuss what it means to truly identify behavioral patterns, how healing transforms leadership, and how Branden now helps create the meaningful guest experience that defines Peaks today. Thank you, Branden, for your endless passion and focus on curating the best guest experience for everyone who steps into Peaks Recovery Centers.

Talking Points1. Introduction to the Show 2. Meet Branden 3. Branden’s journey to Peaks 4. Identifying behaviors 5. Identity and purpose 6. Looking into grief 7. Alumni to Operations Manager 8. The guest experience at Peaks 9. Branden’s life today 10. Final thoughts Quotes

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Episode Transcripts

Episode -154- TranscriptsI always define my life as like having some serious bumpers on my bowling lane and being able to navigate throwing strikes because I have such great bumpers, i.e. community, brothers, young men in recovery, gender specific treatment. We’re able to have these conversations of like what’s that next thing that we can put into recovery centers to benefit the clients in their long-term care. Our responsibility to our patients is to provide them the best care that that they can have, right? Whether it’s the medical team, whether it’s the clinical team, case management, intake team, right? There’s there’s so many valuable key team members that play a huge component of their journey because there’s so many intricate parts to what Peaks Recovery Center brings.
Hey everybody and welcome to another amazing, exciting, and of course enthusiastic episode of Finding Peaks. yours truly, chief executive officer and founder here at Peaks Recovery, Chris Burns. So grateful today to be joined by a good friend, colleague, and long-term recovery friend, Mr. Brandon Behringer, everybody. And to be clear, that’s Brandon with an EN. Welcome to the show. Thank you, Chris. Pleasure being here, man. Yeah, so stoked to have you. We were just talking a little bit before the show. Uh Brandon is an alumni of Peaks. He was back here in 2015. Uh we produced a video uh in regards to his story right around seven or eight years ago. So, I was blown away that we haven’t had him back on the podcast because a lot of things have changed for him personally, professionally. And I just kind of want to walk through um the experience at Peaks, where you sit today as the operations manager, and kind of all points in between. And so, uh for the for the viewers who didn’t get to see Brandon’s initial story, I just want to talk about kind of that front-end experience. You’re living down in Florida, kind of doing your thing, struggling with your mental health, um, informed by some coping with substances, and life was kind of going down the tube. What was it? I know you had been to treatment before, right? Yep. Um, what was it about Peak’s recovery, and what was it about that time in your life that enabled you to make such a good decision? I have to imagine it was yourself, family, and kind of all points in between, but maybe just bring us back a little bit. Yeah. to to kind of go back to the story, right? Like I mean for me it all started with what I believe to be a God moment, right? I was actually on a family vacation um in South Carolina and you know my my you know my father and he’s a very business person and he was actually you know staying up late one night and I remember my parents were both in the hot tub and actually I got into the hot tub with them and you know on this family vacation it wasn’t my purpose or intention going there to ask for help but there was a moment that struck me that just I cried out for help in that moment and I remember breaking looking down and just saying and looking at both my parents and just saying I need help again. Um because at that point I was struggling with my mental health and substances for you know going on six plus years at that point and you know few different treatment centers that I’ve been to. Um you know I learned a lot from them but I wasn’t able to sustain sobriety and you know find my purpose again. Um and that was that moment that um you know inside of 72 hours after that moment um my parents got on the phone and found Peace Recovery Centers in Colorado and you know next thing I knew I was on a flight coming out here and you know landed in a detox facility meeting a gentleman that was at Peaks at the time and you know I walk in the doors at Peaks Recovery Centers and I think for the first time in my life that was actually like my decision. Um the two treatment centers prior to it was more I wanted to do it because I had no other choice, right? I was withdrawing, you know, money ran out, all those kinds of things. And it wasn’t a decision that I was making on my own. But the difference this time around coming to Peaks was um I made the decision on my own and I actually felt genuine care for the first time. Right. You walk through the doors of Peaks Recovery Centers and you know you’re met with the likes of the Chris Burns. You know at the time you know the different staff members who were here the house managers and you know you go through a different experience than I received in Florida and in New Jersey. um because there it just felt like they didn’t care about the clients, right? It just felt like another number sitting in those in those rooms. And the group therapy and peaks was a model that was 6 months. And you know, for me, I think I needed um a larger time frame to find out who I was and my identity and go through a true curriculum that guided me to identify like what I was struggling with in life as well as the camaraderie inside the houses, right? Like all the the young men who lived inside that house. like we created a a dynamic that was impactful and a dynamic that we were all there for, you know, getting better and Peaks kind of created the model to make sure that we were in those rooms and we were engaging with the community and we were engaging in our therapeutic benefits from Peaks. Um, and I think that just made the world of a difference because at the end of the day, it’s so easy to just take things easy and not dig where Peaks made you dig into the things that you felt uncomfortable talking about. And it made it easy in the in the setting that we were in to actually talk about those things and let loose because as a man, man, you don’t want to talk about those things. But at the end of the day, you don’t heal without like being able to identify what those things are, things you’ve done, the things you’ve experienced. And you know, throughout the time at Peaks, man, it was it was just uncovering and unraveling, you know, the layers that I never wanted anyone to see. But I was able to get to that place, you know, with the guided experience of, you know, the therapist at the time and, you know, Peaks as a whole to kind of process through all that stuff. Um, then the benefits of going to afterare inside of Peaks too, right? Like you’re in a bubble like we’re inside the house 24/7. we’re being monitored and then you’re able to kind of navigate into that secondary level of care, you know, designated PHP and you have a level of freedom that comes along with this, right? A lot of people gain that freedom and they go back to old behaviors. Whereas we had a model that, you know, kept the accountability in check. You still have the therapeutic benefits, but you’re still able to make your own choices and live with your choices. But then you’re able to go to group and be like, you know what, I messed up here. It wasn’t substances, but I I landed back in a place where I was relying on old behaviors again and identify those things and then be able to bring accountability yourself to the group and then be able to work on those things again. So to me, Peaks was just the beautifully well-rounded treatment at the time to make sure that like I received the services and the the benefits that I needed and identifying who the hell Brandon Behringer was again because that got lost along the way. To me, that was the beauty of Peace Recovery Centers back in 2015 and still to this day. I love that. you know, being able to identify, which I think is important for the viewers too, is like we can identify behaviors prior to inevitably falling down the path of addiction again because it is, you know, you often hear it referenced in our field that the relapse comes before you actually use. Mhm. And so I think sometimes in our outpatient levels of care, specifically the ones that you walked through, we’re able to kind of be like I always define my life as like having some serious bumpers on my bowling lane and being able to navigate throwing strikes because I have such great bumpers, i.e. community, brothers, young men in recovery, gender specific treatment. And so having people that really care about you, like the friends in my life today, the closest five friends I have in my life, if I’m falling off on something or I’m not doing something right, they’re always like, “Bro, what are you doing?” Mhm. And that’s a true friend. And I had never really been introduced to those types of friends until I found recovery. So I really am grateful that you mentioned that because I think a lot of people think they’ll get into recovery and they’ll be isolated, disconnected, and all alone because I’m this addict or I’m I struggle with bipolar, I do this thing. when in fact there’s a recovery community of like-minded men and women that are marching to the beat of a very similar drum that is infectious and community creating. So, I love that about the recovery process and I had never known that prior to that. How was it because you have a little different experience like I know your family really well. Um, I was uh privileged and honored enough to to do your wedding and you know to give your father a hug and your mother a hug and your brother a big ass hug and each time I do that they just say thank you and your experience with your mother and father was a little bit different. What why was it so difficult do you think and maybe this could help the viewers too for people that are struggling. Why was it so difficult to let your family know that you were struggling? Um, see it’s funny, right? Because you want to hide it, right? Like growing up my entire life, all I ever knew was sports, right? Because at the end of the day, my my parents put me on ice skates when I was 2 years old and I played hockey and baseball year round. And, you know, through school, I was a pretty good student. And, you know, I always did everything, I’m going to say, right. um I wouldn’t say a model citizen but you know at at every turn every grade I was not always on the right track and then there became a moment in time where um my senior year in high school I I you know a pivot happened inside of me and the pivot to me was like we were identifying right it was the people the community that I built around me it all shifted um and with that shift came a level of substances whether it weed um you know Roxy’s at the time and that kind of became the norm of the people that I was hanging around and it’s a behavior that just continued right with smoking weed thinking it was the cool thing to do to fit in because I was losing my identity along the way um because I knew the the end of the line was coming with sports so like the identity was kind of like shifting and I knew at the time that I didn’t really necessarily want to go to college but I could um inevitably down the line I chose to go to community college. But the difference there was um it was hard to kind of share with them because it was a whole different situation that I was in comparatively to the other the beginning parts of my life pretty quickly and there was shame with that, right? Like and they could see it, they would call it out. Um, but you know, as people in addiction, like we’re so good at just creating narratives and stories that it makes it sound better than it really is. And there did come a time um where I did inevitably share with my mother that I needed help, right? And that’s what led to me going to my first treatment center, which perpetuated u moving to Florida and going to that treatment center. But I definitely think the shame of like of where I was in life and the huge shift of where, you know, I believe I should be or where I believe my parents want me to be in life compared to where I was on a downhill trajectory. Um it it was scary to tell them those kinds of things, right? Because like you don’t want to let down the people that care about you the most. Mhm. Um cuz my parents were there for me throughout thick and thin through sports being there year round, hockey, baseball, throughout school, vacations, the whole thing, right? We had a very tight-knit family and then that, you know, I had an older brother as well and you know, same thing. He goes on to college, you know, has this successful career and, you know, I kind of become that oddball in a way. So that’s what held back the the want to overshare in regards to, you know, hey, I need help because it took a little bit of time to get to a place to actually um admit I needed the help. Not wanted the help, but needed it. Mhm. Um so and then again that launched into just the next five years that just became really challenging and again tying it back to the identity like that’s what I lost when I can look back on my life 2020 back to you know 2008 2009 my senior year and moving forward it’s just I didn’t know who I was. I didn’t know where I wanted to be. I didn’t know what I wanted to do, but I know um at that time it’s it’s hard to make the change. And the change I needed to make was going to take treatment. And I didn’t want to do it. Like it was one of those things at the time where it’s like I know what this is going to take. It’s going to be a hard change, a new trajectory, but at the end of the day, it’s so hard to break those patterns and it’s so hard to disconnect the community because the community is disguised to be your friend. The community that you have at that moment is disguised to be your identity in a lot of ways, but in some ways, you also don’t realize in the moment that like it’s not helping you. It’s dragging you down a a further darker path that inevitably you’re going to have to climb back out of. Mhm. Um, and again tying it back to Peaks, like that was that moment where I can actually begin to just one step at a time climb out of that hole and reidentify like who I want Brandon Baron to be. And, you know, sitting here today, I wouldn’t change any of this for the world. It’s a beautiful thing, man. And I think you bring up such a valuable point in my opinion. Not only is identity and purpose part of our curriculum because most young men and women face that inflection point. It’s somewhere oftentimes in their young adult life, but um in their mature adult life as well. And I love how you detailed something because I think a lot of people that maybe struggle with substances, I’ve heard it before where they say, “Yeah, but my mom and dad were [ __ ] really great people. Like it’s not like everybody in group has something to complain about because, you know, they had childhood trauma and they walked through all this stuff.” But you brought up something so subtle. It’s like this internal shift and I had a both and like trauma and childhood and an internal shift with sports with identity. And it’s not something that you do psychologically. It’s far more physiological in regards to your body knows, your nervous system knows that, hey, this hockey thing that I’ve been doing forever, I may or may not be able to go to college, but something’s going to change. this baseball thing that I’ve really hung my hat on that I’ve gotten a million compliments from 2 years old to 18. Everybody sees me, they’re like, “Hockey player, baseball, Brandon, how was the game?” All this stuff. Your parents are like, “Great job, great job.” And then this internal shift happens. Unbeknownst to you, cuz I mean, you stated it really clearly, but you didn’t state, “I thought to myself, my sports career is over. I ought to try something else.” It was this internal shift of identity and purpose in that inflection point and not seeing which way to go. So, I really really love that because I think a lot of people that struggle with substances think, “Oh, I have to have um family of origin trauma. Um dad had to be an alcoholic. Mom had to be really abusive or never come home.” And you define a path that, you know, we can go down to campus right now and probably 30% of the guests have experienced what you have and need to hear this today. And I think the way that you brought it up so eloquently, it it really is this internal shift and all of a sudden you’re magnetized in a different direction than you were from 0 to 18. It’s pretty profound. Absolutely. You know, and that could be difficult, too, because it’s like, where do I go next? And all I want to do is make my parents proud. Yeah. You know, I love that, man. Um, as you progressed in Peaks, obviously you did the six-month program. It was probably longer than that. It was six months, two months of afterare. Okay. Two months of afterare. Um, what did you find when you got out of Peaks? What was one of the like people always say, “Oh, I didn’t know I was going to face this or you know, even the six months of afterare and you know, boundary to accountable care didn’t set me up for this.” You formed really, really great friends and um some of those friends aren’t here anymore. Maybe that’s one thing, but what are some of the things that kind of hit you? I think for me, leaving Peaks in, you know, I’m going to call it a roughly a year into my sobriety. I think some of the the challenges that we were facing at the time, exactly what you’re you’re identifying is we went through I personally went through even prior to peaks. The way I like to represent this is I’ve had a lot of good friends in my life. Um not many of them are alive anymore. Um not all due to substances, some you know some health situations that transpired at a young age. Um a lot of it due to overdoses and substances and mental health. Um, but definitely the battle with discussing and like really opening up about like grieving, right? It’s hard to grieve for me. And it’s still something I struggle with to this day. It’s one of those things where you know it’s there but it stays locked up inside of you because again it it’s hard to discuss these things. Um, you know, when I was a client at Peaks, I grew very close with a handful of clients that we had and unfortunately a few of them, you know, lost their battle with substance use. And, um, they were people that I grew very very close to, a very large community base with and, you know, it was challenging because again, those happened while I was in or, you know, after I graduated from Peaks. The next challenge inside of that too, and I think this ties to a things that I think that people in society struggle with all the time as well, but and again tying this back to the family dynamic, that was the first time in my life where I was on my own in a completely new state. Um, paying, you know, paying all my bills, you know, the rent, you know, all of the things and financially having to make it on my own. Um, which I’m super grateful for because it led me to where I am today where I’m, you know, I live the life I do in terms of being frugal because I like to save money based on the experiences that I’ve had through that time because again there’s you leave treatment, I didn’t have much, didn’t have really anything if I’m being honest. and you’re able to kind of grow. And that’s again where like the identity comes in and the growth because you’re able to identify if I want this in life and I want a family and I want a house and I’m striving for these goals, these are the things I have to do and these are things that along the way I’m going to have to sacrifice to get to the place that I want to be in life. Um because now at this point, right, you have a couple a year of sobriety under your belt and you’re starting to look into yourself in regards to like what’s that next area that I need to continue to work on? Um because, you know, I had the balance, I had the community, I was going to AA at the time, I was doing all the things to benefit my sobriety, but like what’s that next step for me? Mhm. Um, and that next step for me was identifying, you know, the professional life that I wanted to live and also having I I equate money to freedom in a lot of ways. Um, and to be able to find security financially so that I can support my family in the future and my home, which again, at some point in our story, we can probably get to that. Um, but man, it’s it’s awesome to just think back of, you know, the moment walking through the door at Peaks to where we are now and the professional growth inside of Peace Recovery Centers, all the mentors we had along the ways. um you know to jump from position to position to position inside of Peaks, learn from really well experienced people inside of this organization, the mental health and substance use field, be able to bounce ideas off of each other, all for the the purpose of identifying what is the next best care that we can provide our guests. And you know, that’s where we stand today. And it’s amazing. It truly is. To be able to put your head on the pillow every night and just know like, man, what I do every single day affects people in such a magnificent way is one of the most beneficial things a man can experience. And you probably didn’t know when you came to Peaks that you were going to choose this as a profession, but it’s interesting what comes up when you put mental health to bed and allow passion to kind of be alive and well. you know, you have that connected spirit that I think is is really really cool to not only in part on our guests but other staff members and your experience going through Peaks I think speaks volumes. That’s one of the things we didn’t have in the curriculum back in the day was grief and loss. And I’m grateful that you mentioned it because it is such an important topic especially with men. Not to say that there’s, you know, women as well that struggle struggle with kind of um being a part of that story or at least living that out loud. But with men specifically, I mean, I went back to the Meadows with six, seven years sober just to process grief. Yep. Um, so I think that’s really cool that you mentioned that and I think it’s a it’s certainly a uh it’s certainly something that each and every person will have to walk through a prerequisite. That’s what I was thinking of. It’s a prerequisite for this recovery process and not only a prerequisite but an ongoing process throughout your recovery because things come up. You know, I had similar to you. I had a buddy of mine um who I got sober with same day like we called each other. I’m going to treatment. and I’m going to treatment. We picked up one years, two years, three years, four years and then he fell off the map. And I remember just thinking to myself because I didn’t know how to process the grief because I was just sad. I missed my friend. Um I got angry and I moved into community with anger and I’m like that’s what happens when you’re addicted when it’s like that’s not as authentic as what you just said. You know, moving into an authentic process where I can admit things like I’m feeling sad, I’m feeling anxious, I’m feeling disheartened. And being able to process those emotions, I think is the gap of which we all must cross in order to find this authentic foundational recovery that we have today. Absolutely. So, I love that you mentioned that, man. You you literally mentioned two weeks within our curriculum with grief and loss and identity and purpose. Um, fast forwarding a little bit, something that’s been really difficult for me lately as the president and founder is to sit with 95% of our guests who say that Peak’s Recovery is one of the top five things that ever happened to them in their lives. And then there’s this 5% of people, and it breaks my heart, that sometimes come in and are like, “Oh, I don’t I don’t know if this is going to work. I’m not sure.” And oftentimes it’s people on their first treatment who don’t have a lot of experience with the behavioral health setting. Mhm. My question is is how does that feel as being an alumni and now a staff member and how do you curate and or connect with guests to ensure that not only work do our eyes and crossing our tees but they’re having a phenomenal experience. How is that imagine it would be different than your average staff member being an alumni because it’s so so near and dear to your heart. No, absolutely. And you know, as the operations manager, right, like I think our responsibility to our patients is to provide them the best care that that they can have, right? Whether it’s the medical team, whether it’s the clinical team, case management, intake team, right? There’s there’s so many valuable key team members that play a huge component of their journey because there’s so many intricate parts to what Peaks Recovery Center brings. Um, and I reflect on this commonly because like to me it’s representing and introducing what peace recovery centers has to offer, right? There’s so many clinical modalities that we can practice. There’s so many benefits to having n nursing team touching patients across the way. um inside of our stabilization unit, the providers as well, um the intake team and doing that, the activities team, um you know, in our director’s meeting, we’re able to have these conversations of like what’s that next thing that we can put into Fuks Recovery Centers to benefit the clients in their long-term care. And we’ve adopted a few different um strategies in regards to even bringing um you know PT into our our curriculum and engaging further into activities and you know um not just yoga and hikes but just more intricate activities that we can place into our curriculum to ensure that we’re touching every patient because not every guest you know loves the idea of hiking. Not every guest loves the idea of um you know going you know on the incline or doing yoga or going to the gym like they all experience life and things that they enjoy in different ways. So to me Peaks Recovery Center is like we continue to navigate these conversations in a way where it’s what is that next thing that we can do on behalf of what is being represented from that 5% that you identified. Um, and you know, we do that with surveys and trying to gather this information to make sure that we’re continuously receiving the data but utilizing the data truly to identify what are we missing because to me there’s always areas of improvement right the world continues to grow around us whether it’s the cars whether it’s the houses whether it’s AI whether it’s technology there’s always advancements that are being made and I believe that in the mental health and substance use field too I want to make sure that we can put every possible modality, activity, um, community building tool and in front of our patients so that they can experience it and then through that experience at Peaks Recovery Centers be able to utilize it when they enter PHP, be able to utilize it when they enter IOP because I we we kind of changed away from the modality that we had back in the day. like we’re going to kind of you need to go to 2A meetings every single day, have a sponsor, do coffee dates, work the steps, do all these things where I believe I I love the idea of placing all of these things in front of the patient, allowing them to experience it, and then be able to hone in on, you know what, that was impactful to me. You know, Monday, you know, doing art class with Mo, like that’s something I want to hold on to and continue to navigate into the real world in PHP and IOP. the activity with Bobby and going on hikes like you know I never knew that I enjoyed getting in the sun as much as I did especially in an environment like Colorado man we have so many different um hiking trails and you know the ability to go to these you know different trails and you know just that one experience can change someone’s life again tying identity and purpose to it right so just being able to utilize our staff and be able to just present all of these different things to our clients so they can experience it. And when we’re able to capture that 5% of like, you know, what people believe that we can improve upon, you know, being able to collect that information, discuss it as a team, and see, you know, is this something that we can implement into our program on behalf of the guests we serve to make sure that the next client who has similarities to this guest, we don’t feel that friction. And we make sure that their treatment episode is as smooth as we can possibly make it. and make sure that every guest who walks through our door um experiences something unlike they’ve ever experienced at another treatment center. That’s super dope, man. You’re hitting it out of the park today. Um because what you’re talking about is this tagline that we have in behavioral health and everybody does it. A lot of people do, but it’s individualized care. So, you know, the treatment programs I went to, individualized care, individualized care individual treatment program, but then I came in and they’re like, “You sir are an alcoholic. Alcoholics go to a meeting every day. They get a sponsor. They work the steps. They do 90 and 90. And that is what I did and that’s what I chose eventually. But the box was over my head. It just happened to fit. Thank God. So you talk about this process when you come into Peaks. This what I love about Peaks. It’s not like being in a fifth grade classroom where everybody gets the same test. All the scores get averaged and equaled out the same. Literally, when someone comes in, outside of the curriculum that they’re going to walk through in the group process, Joey’s treatment will look so much different than Debbie’s treatment. And for really, really good reason. And I love what you’re talking about is like, let’s load them up with resources. Let’s let’s check out some a let’s do some dharma. Let’s do some drum circle. Let’s check out the yoga studio. Let’s uh let’s check out some grounding outside. Let’s get some sun on our face. And you take from this alakart package what fits you. And I said this the other day to a family and I think it was or not a family but I was talking to another colleague. We want to make sure that your treatment plan and even more specifically your afterare plan fits you like a glove that was made just for you. Exactly. And when you have a glove on that is made just for you or an outfit that fits you perfectly, it has this ability to be really sustainable because you have there’s passion within it. Maybe we can talk about that a little bit. um the difference between when you went through peaks and the folks that are going through peaks now and what you really really love outside of like what we just kind of spoke about, but some of the things that you love that you think we honestly I’m I’m actually surprised we kept peaks together back when you were there. I mean, I was like, Cass and I were doing HR. We’re doing all these things. We’re trying to like hold it together. And now it’s ve it’s very sophisticated to your point, well thought out, informed by surveys, incident reports, getting it right, getting it wrong, conglomerating all that information, and informing a solid care structure. So, what are some of the things as you sit in your operations post and you’re imparting on your team or that’s been imparted on you and the guests that you really love right now? Yeah, I mean I think one of the coolest things that we are currently doing and we’ve been doing this for a long time is you know our systematic and procedural approaches to each and every single department right because at the end at the end of the day like we have a vision of we want what we want a BHT role to be. We have a vision of what we want a clinician role to be. Um we have a vision of what we want a provider role to be. Um and being able to capture that and not only capture it but implement it into our you know daily operations like that’s one of the coolest things because at the end of the day right we using BHA terminology right we launch into our comprehensive assessment everything that goes into a guest for 72 hours like their experience right this isn’t the operational side of things this is actually the things that a client is facing as they walk through our door um which for us includes going to the guest intake room and what do we want our intake specialists to be providing in that moment and what do we want them to understand about our curriculum and then going over to our nurses and entering that assessment like what do we want um outside of you know the documentation that needs to transpire but how do we want our nurses to show up what do we want them discussing with our clients then hopping in with the provider and doing the HMP and the psyche val and then being able to again How are our providers showing up in that moment? You know, not just as, you know, changing medications and learning about the biomedical conditions on behalf of our patients, but being able to like identify, you know, what’s going on, you know, help me understand and then launching into the BH the BHT intake and it’s the same thing. But along that journey, there are so many people that are touching our clients in that 72 hours. Then that client finally gets into bed, gets them, you know, well-cooked meal on behalf of our culinary team and throughout the next 48 hours that we have more guests who are, you know, having experiences with our intake team and then having experiences with our nurses who are back in stabilization. So I think creating a well orchestrated system that creates the best client experience as we walk through this and we’re you know in you know starting Thursday going into our service plan and being able to identify you know from day four moving all the way up until discharge now what does that look like? How do we improve upon that care? And to me, it’s so important because in treatment, right, there’s a lot of autonomy that you gain in your positions. And that’s beautiful because people bring different um benefits to the conversations that they have. But how do we again individualize the care to make sure that um each person can receive care in a different way? Because like you touched on um each guest, you know, in my experience, they don’t love every single staff member as they go through treatment. Some people challenge them. They don’t like being challenged. They, you know, maybe dislike a BHT because they remind them of someone from their past, right? And again, that’s why it’s important for me to have all those people interacting with that guest inside that first 72 hours cuz man, walking in a treatment and you and me can attest to this. It’s anxietyprovoking. There’s nothing comfortable about this. You’re walking in sometimes into a new state into a facility with a bunch of people. you’re you’re around a bunch of other guests who are experiencing hardship in their own life and they’re and it’s a hard thing to navigate through and I really enjoy the challenge of making sure that all of our staff are up for that challenge to make sure that we can simplify and lessen the anxiety and calm the nervous system for that 72 hours to make sure that that guest can begin receiving services when our providers obviously um allow them to from a medical perspective. Um because landing the client is in a lot of ways probably the hardest thing to do because again there’s nothing easy about walking through the door of a treatment center. You don’t know what to expect. And it’s it’s one of those amazing things that we can just continue to navigate, continue to look into, continue to receive data points that reflect on this is informing our decisions and this is how we’re going to continue to grow on behalf of the client experience. And I think for me that’s one of the huge differentials that we had from back in the day to where we are now where back in the day I can speak from a client perspective right it felt like everyone had the autonomy just kind of do what they believed was what we should be doing right we didn’t necessarily have a curriculum but you know there was guided clinical practices um same thing with being in the house like there was a lot of structure um but there was autonomy inside of that structure And same thing like I just want to be able to make sure that throughout the guest experience man like we’re able to touch everyone’s hearts. We’re able to make sure that they leave Peaks Recovery Centers ready to launch into life and be able to put one foot in front of the other and be ready for the next moment of man this is going to be hard but you know what I know I can do it. Yeah that’s huge man. And I never thought 11 years ago when we opened the company that like you know one of the passion points would be systems and processes. But it’s it’s very very important not only to like guest satisfaction but client safety, connectedness, the whole thing. You touched on um the first 72 hours and it’s it’s one of the my favorite things to talk about on a tour where I start out up front. I go over to the intake office. I say this is where the intake team comes out. They meet the guests and their family. We get that settled. They go back to the intake office. They ping the nurse very connectedly. The nurse shows up. Hey, I’m so and so. They take him to the nursing intake room. We get done with the nursing intake. We move on to the next thing. It’s very succinct. And you and your team and certainly Dr. Prince and her teams and things of that nature have found a way to systematize each new guest feeling like or at least us informing that you’re the most important person in the room right now. And so I love the idea where the admissions does kind of this listen first solve later. nothing is rushed throughout that process. And the concierge and hospitality approach that we aim to inform in that first 72 hours is something that I love talking about because when folks are coming into treatment, to your point, they’re definitely not there there are two things for sure. Distrusting, not trusting anybody, anxious, scared, isolated, and probably disconnected in some form. And if we can begin to put those pieces together in a very authentic way by just suiting up and showing up, I think it can curate the guest experience for the next 27 days. Absolutely. And it often does. Yeah. When we nail that first 72 hours, which we do more often than not, people go on to have phenomenal experiences at Peaks Recovery. And it’s interesting that you talk so highly about that, you know, 10 years into your career. That’s the same thing that you mentioned in a different season when you said, “I walked into Peaks and I just felt the care.” Now it’s shifted. It’s professionalized. It’s matured as it should have. Um, but it’s still alive and well in a really profound way. And I think that’s really really cool for people that are like holding that big phone in their hand right now and like I don’t want to go in there. And a lot of people have experiences like you did at like a psych ward and they’re like just please tell me it’s not that. You know, absolutely. So I really appreciate you saying that. Before we jump off, this has been a phenomenal show, but before we jump off, I want to talk about life today personally, what does it look like? It’s been a long time since you did that recovery video. A lot of things have happened. Absolutely. Big changes, man. Um, yeah, since since that video has transpired, right? You know, I began working at Peaks to kind of go throughout the entirety from a timeline perspective. And, you know, multiple positions inside of Peaks Recovery Centers. And you know, I’ll never forget the day where I was actually at peaks in my office and I received a phone call from my at that time my girlfriend, now my wife, saying, “Hey, Brandon, I’m pregnant.” And you know, speaking to what I was speaking to probably 30 minutes ago. Um, just the growth in identifying like this is that next big step for me in in my life, right? because now I’m bringing a child into the world um in a state in that you know I’m relatively familiar with and you know again just identifying this is that next big hurdle that comes in all of our lives doesn’t matter if we’re in recovery or not like people in society we all have that next big hurdle that’s coming along the way and that was mine and man again there’s I wouldn’t change it for the world man it’s I have a daughter I have a a 12-year-old son as well and my wife. We got married um January 3rd, 2023. Um Chris, you were able to um lead our wedding in that regard and be a part of that process as well. Chaplain. Chaplain. Yep. Exactly. Burns. Um so been married um throughout that process. We purchased a house back in 2022 as well. um which is again just identifying those goals which I made in early recovery and just step by step just chipping away making those smart goals making sure that you know this is the obtainable goal that I want but here are those micro steps to make sure that I get to that place and um just growing as an individual throughout that and like tying this all the way back to the beginning of like what is my identity in this world um I believe I found that in a lot of ways like working in this field and working with the people who are walking into their own personal recovery journey whether that be mental health substance use um you know addictions in regards to screen time it’s another big thing um I think for me finally I’ve stepped into my place as being a father being a son being a role model for my children being the best husband I can for my wife and being able to show up as a professional each and every single day And that is what I tie my identity to now in this current moment to make sure that you know I know who I am. I know where I want to be and continue to set goals. I have many goals that I still want to obtain and you know just along the way just taking those micro steps to make sure that I hit those goals and just continue to continue chugging away at it. Man, day by day. What a cool life, man. What a really cool life. And I just I want to end with making sure the viewers because you’ve imparted so much wisdom today and from an authentic and very kind of what I would consider an obtainable perspective is you came in no relationships not a lot of close friends disconnected with your family a tremendous amount of shame. You came into this program sight unseen had a tremendous amount of courage. You walked through the steps. You took the suggestions even when you didn’t want to. you followed your heart. You became a father. You became a professional. Um, and now you’re a mentor for many, having been in recovery over a decade now. I think it’s really, really phenomenal. And, and just to mention, like, you know, the amount of lives that you impact at Peaks Recovery Center, the amount of times I get to sit down and hear your name brought up um, is astonishing. It’s an absolute miracle. I’m grateful to be a small part of that. And I just want those people that are watching out there right now to understand and inherit this idea that this is for you as well. One step, one breath, one day. Thanks for joining us, my man. Appreciate you coming on. Um, we’ll have to bring you on a little bit sooner rather than later. Man, that was a really cool show. I think the viewers and guests and alumni that watch the show are really going to gain some value from this. So, thank you for showing up um with a whole heart. It means a lot, man. Appreciate you. Thanks for having me, Chris. Cool. Until next time, my beautiful people.

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Episode 153Everyone Has a Story: Finding Healing with Angela NashWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/C08ueeLavJgListen NowDescriptionIn this episode of Finding Peaks, Chris Burns sits down with Peaks Recovery Centers’ Medical Supervisor Angela Nash to explore her journey into mental health care and the importance of showing up—both for others and for herself. Angela shares insights into self-care, motherhood in recovery, and the daily self-work that keeps her grounded. Together, they unpack common misconceptions about mental health, the evolving role of medication management, and the “why” that drives Angela’s passion for helping others heal.

Talking Points1. Introduction to the Show 2. Meet Angela 3. Early stages of helping with mental health 4. Showing up today 5. Looking into a Nurse Practitioner 6. Everyone has a story 7. Self-care and coping 8. Daily and weekly self-work 9. Motherhood in recovery 10. Common misconceptions of mental health 11. Looking into medication management 12. Angela’s why 13. Final thoughts Quotes

“Honestly, mental health [suffering] is everywhere, after you start working you see that. It’s on every floor, and it’s in every situation you are in. People’s mental health is important.” – Angela Nash, Medical Supervisor PRC

Episode Transcripts

Episode -153- TranscriptsI let them know they’re you’re doing something really positive for yourself and this is the best thing you can do for yourself right now. But the goal is in 30 days to have them experiencing one of their best days. Mhm. And we often have the the the opportunity to see that with people that come through care. Like a lot of people have trauma and that’s why they can’t like get in the shower or um and they have they need to address the trauma before we start forcing them to try to do this task that they feel like is impossible.
Hey everybody and welcome to another amazing, exciting and of course enthusiastic episode of Finding Peaks. Yours truly, chief executive officer and founder Christopher Michael Burns. So grateful to be here today and be joined by an amazing professional but an even better human, Angela Nash, our medical supervisor and psychiatric nurse practitioner. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. So, a lot of people watch the show up up at the uh facility staff and otherwise, and they’re always like, “Don’t pick me. Don’t pick me.” And uh um I’m grateful you decided to join me today because I think we can really um find ourselves in an organic conversation, about mental health, um about recovery, about how we walk people into this process, how we alleviate fears, build trust, and create relationships here at Peaks Recovery. So really, really excited to have you. I want to talk a little bit about your early career. Started out as a nurse. I did. Um nurses to me, and I told this to Jen because she was on the show a couple weeks ago, are like the glue that holds everything together. They kind of do a little bit of everything. And oftentimes their guests, clients, and patients in hospitals favorite people. Why did you choose to um go into the nursing profession? I wanted to be a nurse since I was like 12. Really? Yeah. I always wanted to care for people. So that’s ultimately why I did it. It just took me a long time to get there. But um and even then I didn’t start in mental health. I started on you know med surge floors and stuff like that. And um that was a good experience. I learned a lot. But um the mental health is where I really find it’s more rewarding than other places. Did you know that there was like this side of um health care that was driven by psychiatry or driven by Not when I started. Okay. Not when I started. Yeah. I always wonder too like when people choose to be doctors I don’t think top of mind is like being a psychiatrist. Yeah. Something like that, you know? So I think it could be. Yeah. But like for psychiatrist that would make sense because you’re you have to pick a specialty when you start. But like for nursing, you can go anywhere and choose it whenever you want, change it when you want. Yeah. Can you start out as a nurse um for example in labor and delivery and then just with that same nursing degree you can go into pediatrics? Yeah. Or you can just kind of move around so you don’t necessarily have a specialty. Yeah. Exactly. Oh, that’s really really cool. What was it at 12 years old? Why do you think? Because at 12 years old, I didn’t know what I wanted to do. I don’t know. My family was really religious and Okay. I always was really compassionate and very um empathetic to people and I just I was the oldest too so I was always taking care of everyone else so I was kind of used to it and I just thought that I would do that for a living. How did you start to hear about um when you started your nursing career? How did you start to hear about behavioral health and the mental health side of things and what piqu your interest? Well, honestly, mental health is everywhere. after you actually start working, you see that like it’s it’s on every floor. It’s in every situation you’re in. Um people’s mental health is important and you watch it fail a lot in the hospital. And um I went from there to psychiatric nursing and in psychiatric nursing um I learned a lot. I did it for 10 years. Okay. um before I decided to be a nurse practitioner. Um I learned a lot from the doctors around me and just the flow of things, medications, things like that. Um but I also had the ability to deescalate people and provide compassion and empathy and when I see them at their worst, I find I get them at their worst and at their lowest point in life. And to be able to help them recover from that is a really great experience. Yeah, that’s really cool. You can tell that you certainly kind of had that passion whether you knew it or not. Do you find that like in the ER setting, is that where you started? No, I started Well, I started in uh surgical trauma. Okay. So, for example, surgical trauma, would you see people come in with physical symptoms as a result of a mental health issue or would you see people come in um getting treated for kind of external stuff and you would be able to identify this might be more of an internally driven situation? Yeah, a lot of times they came in with physical ailments and then you would discover that they also had mental health issues. How do you begin to engage with people who maybe don’t know that they’re struggling with a mental health issue? How do you begin to engage with them compassionately and empathetically like you talked about in an effort to connect with them um in a real way? I mean, just asking for their life story really. What brought you to where you are now? What makes you feel the way you feel? any like any kind of trauma like not just physical sexual and emotional abuse but things in your life that have happened that have changed the way you are now. Um just helping them identify those things and see how it may have affected them when they might not realize it. Yeah, that makes that makes a lot of sense, too. And kind of brings me to like a follow-up question is how do you dismiss shame in that process? And how do you approach individuals without kind of this energy of like something’s wrong with you? Let me allow allow me to fix you. In my experience, when I first showed up at 13 years old to YDI, Youth Development Institute, it was very much like I had a problem and I was going to this place to be fixed and they had the solution. But I never found connection in that approach because it was very inauthentic to me. I feel like when you tell someone or you’re talking to someone and learning their story and learning their traumas, you see the reason for why they do what they do. You see the reason for any kind of behaviors that might be considered inappropriate or you see a reason for substance abuse. You understand why they do what they do. Mhm. And I think just validating that and ignore like acknowledging this is this is real trauma. I know you might not think it is, but it really is and it’s probably why you do the things that you do. And I think that helps a lot. I love that. It’s a really compassionate way to kind of connect with people and begin to allow them to experience something that you and I both know is very very important, which is like to be seen, valued, and heard. Mh. And that really, really goes a long way. It’s so interesting you say that because a couple days ago there was a guest in care. He’s been with us one time before. I think at least one time before, and he’s beating himself up. And I always go back to the Rich Roll quote and I’ve used it in here so many times, but with respect to substances, this is the way that I look at it. It’s hard to get enough of something that almost works. It’s hard to get enough of something that almost works. And that you basically just said that’s the way in which you approach guests, clients, and and patients in your work. It’s like, of course you did. That must have been so difficult. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It’s you you can’t even you can’t blame them for where they are now. There’s a reason for why they’re there. Mhm. Do you find, Angela, with that approach that guests or clients are able to settle a little bit more? Maybe they come in tense or they just got there and they’re in their first 24 hours and you’re trying to get some the psyche valve done. What do you find in the uh guest disposition when you’re able to truly connect and empa empathize with them? I mean, I feel like they they feel some relief like this is this is not all my fault. I don’t have to be here. I don’t have to feel shame for being here or like I’m actually like I let them know they’re you’re doing something really positive for yourself and this is the best thing you can do for yourself right now and if all you can do is show up right now and not even participate like whatever you’re able to do just do your best every day. That’s all you can do. Yeah, that’s really cool. And and it’s not the way that I actually started my career. We were talking a little bit before the show, you know, when I got sober back in 2008. They were like 90 and 90. Do this thing. I don’t care about all the trauma informed stuff we talked about in treatment. Do this thing or you’re going to die because you’re just one in a million of these people. And so I went into AA and I’m like, oh [ __ ] you know, oh, I can’t sit still. But the first time, and I think it was right around 5 years of sobriety when somebody actually saw me like you’re talking about, I was at the meadow. It was actually well she was probably probably closer to 8 years but I was at the Meadows for some mental health and some some trauma work and this person came up to me and just saw me and held that space and it was like I was like this for like 8 years and then all of a sudden I was like oh my gosh I was able to really really settle and then all of the sudden the words that the provider was telling me wasn’t a bunch of mumble jumbo. was actually able to listen, interpret, and connect with what they were trying to deliver to me. But it wasn’t until they saw me where I was at. So, I love that that’s the way that you approach the work with our guests and certainly the way we approach it at Peaks Recovery Centers is to show people that inherent value that like somewhere was lost. I really feel like everybody at Peaks does that. Like I I feel like we all have the same feelings towards our patients where we act we really care and it makes a big difference. Yeah. It kind of we all march to the beat of the same drum. So it’s it’s really symbiotic in that way and the way we’re able to approach guests. It’s it’s just very interesting to me. I’m just thinking to myself this morning I ran into somebody and it’s interesting on the front end. You said, “Sometimes I meet people on their worst day, but the goal is in 30 days to have them experiencing one of their best days.” Mhm. And we often have the the the opportunity to see that with people that come through care is like day one. Yeah. That’s a definitely a beautiful day. Yeah. It’s a really really cool thing. And you can tell a lot of folks that are in our care, whether they have great families or not, just haven’t really been seen in a long time, you know. And so from a community-based perspective and a provider-based perspective or treatment program, I think the emphasis on seeing, valuing, and hearing people is extraordinary um to anchor into the work that we want to walk with them throughout. So yeah, really appreciate that. What was it about um being a nurse practitioner? Was there an inflection point in your career or was that something that you had thought about throughout the 10 years you were doing nursing or um Well, not going to lie, nursing is exhausting. Yeah. you are on your feet a lot and you are running and I had back problems and I couldn’t keep doing that. So I was like well I better advance this somewhere where I don’t have to turn patients because it hurts literally that’s why I did but um I I love it like it’s it’s a great I like working with the nurses. I like working with my team. I think all of our providers are really compassionate. Yeah, I think it’s really good. They’re really strong people. I agree. Is it um because you can just go be a nurse practitioner, but the psychiatric side of things, that’s a different route, right? Right. When you when you choose to be a nurse practitioner, you have to pick your route. Okay. Like you have to know which one you’re going to do. Um the most general is like family nurse practitioner. Okay. But I focus mine on mental health. Okay. And addiction. Is there more? Do you have to do more like a residency or how does that process work? Right. Like you do your schooling. Okay. And then you have to do a residency for a year. Okay. and you go to four different rotations and you know you work on certain things each rotation. Okay. And I mean learn how to do everything you just learned in school. What was one of the biggest surprises for you as you began to educate and learn more about mental health, behavioral health um in your schooling or maybe it’s um in your career? What was one of the most surprising things that maybe you didn’t know before you got into the profession that you know to be true today? I guess I didn’t realize the depth of how much people suffer. Yeah. Until I was actually in nursing. Um I didn’t realize how bad it can get and being in mental health, it’s you see the absolute worst and you see people out of their mind and it’s at no fault of their own. Um, and I think that was not shocking to me, but definitely life-changing. Yeah, I’m really grateful you actually mentioned that. You know, when I got into recovery, I’m like, I’m pretty sure I’m the worst human here. I’m pretty sure I’ve been through the worst. I have the worst of this, the worst of that. If you had what I had, you would do what I do. And then I started to meet these people um friends in recovery as a professional guest in the program and I started to see that I could actually my story could fit inside of a lot of the people we serve and that was a pretty profound experience and just furthermore push me into kind of compassion. I mean, it’s mind-blowing what some of these people have been through and people think, Angela, it’s like um I remember we I worked at a place called Decision Point Center as my first job in treatment about 17 years ago. And it was like the place like it was, you know, 2008 was $30,000 a month. It’s really expensive now. It was really expensive then, but like if you loved your family member, this is where they went. And I remember sitting with this person and um she was really connected like with my favorite NFL football team. Her family had a private jet. She had all these things. And I was like, you know, and I thought to myself when she first came in, I’m like, what what could be so bad? I grew up poor. At least you have money. Then I started to learn about her story. And it blew me away because I had always thought as like lower middle class kind of kid that like money buys happiness and people that have money like they don’t have problems like we do. And then I started to learn her story about incest and about rape and about violence and about spe sexual abuse, assault from a very young age all the way throughout her teens all the way until she was an adult. And yeah, she still was connected with all those resources, but she was experiencing a depth and weight of pain um that I don’t think I could have ever fathomed. Yeah. And it really opened me up to this thing that we get to do on a daily basis. And yeah, I’m really grateful you brought that up because it’s uh big stories we deal with. Um and I’m grateful for the opportunity to do that and walk with people and help kind of like work through those stories that can be really really intense. Yeah. Um, something I definitely wanted to talk about today because I don’t get to talk about it a lot with a lot of providers is kind of lived experience, you know, struggling with mental health, um, working into recovery and the space in between. Um, you have obviously lived experience. You you wanted to be a helper since you were 12 years old. And oftentimes those first childs help everybody. And um, if you’re anything like uh, my older brother, you forget to help yourself. Sorry, Brent. No, kid. Um but I I was the same way. And so what have you experienced any mental health issues and or distress? What did you do? How did you cope with it? Um we’ll start there. Yeah, I had a lot of um mental health issues in like my 30s. Um, I had a very sick child and a lot of trauma from having her in the hospital and constant hospitalizations and close to death experiences and all of that. And I would treat my mental health issues as well, like inappropriately. And I when I finally I I hit rock bottom, I actually did. So, I do know what it’s like to have to fight your way back up. and um how hard that is and how it’s a dedication like a day at a time type of thing and you just have to take one day at a time. Mhm. Until everything becomes more habitual and um I I like to think I get to bring more empathy into the situation because of what I’ve been through. Yeah. So, and thank you for sharing that. So your mental health stuff was kind of I always like refer as like kind of a late bloomer. So in your 20s you didn’t experience a lot of that until you had a trauma or a significant well the start the trauma started in my 20s and I think it just kind of it just compiled over and over and at first I was just really strong and dealing with it and then it just wore on me and yeah I had a lack of support system. There was all kinds of factors but Yeah. And you couldn’t pray it away. No, I could not. Dang it. I was trying. I was like, come on. Not to say prayer is bad, but you know, definitely some professional help is is warranted at times. It’s interesting you say that, especially with um the labor and delivery of your daughter. Um I was reading a study, this was like I’m going to butcher it because I’ve said it on the show before, but um I was reading a study, maybe it was a couple years ago, a year and a half. Time flies when you’re having fun, but it said that maybe it’s a Mayo Clinic article. It said if you break your arm, you should get psychotherapy. What if I don’t necessarily agree with that, but if you break your arm, you should get psychotherapy. What if the inflection point is like somewhere in the middle and everybody goes in, they get surgeries, they have labor and delivery issues, their daughter has medical issues, they’re in the NICU for 90 days, they’re all these medical, they’re living under fluorescent lights, there’s all this stuff. Each time a doctor walks in, it’s worse news. It’s like it makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. And people oftentimes just roll over those situations like a speedboat. And it’s not like the OB came in and was like, “Hey, you went through a lot. Your family went through a lot. Here’s a resource for one of those psychiatrist people.” Yeah. They don’t do that. No. They’re like, “All right, see you later. Baby can breathe. Good luck.” I mean, when I took my baby home from the hospital, I was like, “What am I going to do with this thing?” You know? So I would imagine that having experienced some intensity, having experienced some trauma in your 20s and then moving through and having a situation like that that’s really really big, it was just one of those things where it’s like I have to imagine like I just need some relief. Yeah. And trying to find that can be really really difficult especially when life’s big and it’s intense, right? What do you do today to inform your mental health? Um on the recovery side of things, how do you cope with life? because you know you deal with big stories all the time. You’re often times one of the first people you guests meet on site. You’re often times the people they come with with some of the more um descriptive um
reasons in which um they’re coping with substances or coping with process driven issues and things like that. Um so how do you walk through that? Well, I see a therapist every week. Nice. Yeah, I definitely see a therapist every week. Um, she’s great. Um, but yeah, I’m able to unload anything that I ended up holding on to, like a story that really affected me or um, something hit close to home or something like that. Um, so I deal with it that way. And then I have a great support system. I’m a very loving husband and um, I have six dogs. So Oh, that’s sweet. I knew you had dogs. I didn’t know that. Yeah, I love fostering puppies and helping animals find homes and stuff like that. And that’s that’s like fills my heart up. I love that. I would have maybe a handful of years ago, I’ve been like, “Dogs, help you.” But so I’ve been I was doing this thing and I started it a few years ago, probably a couple years ago where I’d go home and I’d be so anxious and just intense. My nervous system’s on fire. It’s an intense day at work. And I would have my dog at the time, Billy. I would just go lay in my bed, put like my comfies on, you know, when I get home and then go lay in my bed and I’ll have the dog just lay on my chest and like a minute in I’m like, “Oh my god, they’re very therapeutic.” Yeah. It’s so cool. There’s like this exchange that’s really really powerful between animals and humans if I can be present for it. So that’s really cool. The therapy thing that’s um something I’ve certainly engaged with. What type of therapy is it? Is it just talk therapy? Mhm. just talk therapy. Okay. I love that too because when you when you go we often talk about um when it’s a 12step thing there used to be this well there still is a step step 10 and it’s this daily house cleaning and the idea is is life gets big and intense and then we kind of say okay this is where I was dishonest this is where I fell short this is where I need help on you know a 1937 approach to therapy. Mhm. Uh do you find that that weekly work is is needed for individuals in recovery or needed for yourself because of the work you do, the recovery process you live in? Um yeah, just kind of once a week. Does that feel like Yeah. I mean, it’s really therapeutic. I do need to unload. I I I do need to like refresh why I do what I do and why I’ve come how I’ve come so far and like re like she really gives me um encouragement to think about the things I have been able to do as opposed to focusing on things that I’m struggling with. Um and eventually I succeed at those things as well because I’m thinking more positively. Yeah. Do you find that’s kind of like an evolutionary process? Like you’re like, “Wow, got that done.” And then you go around the other corner, you’re like, “There’s another.” Yeah. Yeah. And that’s just kind of like life on life’s terms, right? There’s always stuff. Uhhuh. How have you found that um your recovery has impacted you as a mother? Um, well, I’m very compassionate towards my daughter and where she’s been and she has significant trauma because, you know, she was the one that was sick. So, she’s got a lot of trauma from that. And, um, just being able to
be with her where she’s at. And I mean, she’s struggling herself with her own things right now. and um just being able to just be supportive and just be a mom instead of try to be a nurse. Yeah. Cuz that’s what I used to do. Yeah. You’re like And she didn’t appreciate that very much. So just being a mom instead. Um and being there to listen and not always trying to come up with solutions because maybe there isn’t any. Um, it just I understand that sometimes it feels like there’s no solutions. Um, and I think it just made me a better listener. Yeah, that’s a really big deal. That’s some hero mom [ ] right there. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz you want to fix it. Yeah. Of course you do. You probably come from the generation, the same generation I come from is where parents a lot of times were like, “Don’t do what I do, do what I say.” Right. I think that is such a copout. Yeah. Just do what I say, not what I do. Have you ever read the book? Maybe I’ve asked you this before. Um, but not on the show, obviously. Have you ever read the book The Journey of a Heroic Parent? I haven’t. Have I asked you that before? I think so. Did I tell you about it? I don’t think so. So, it’s super cool. So, it’s written by this guy is Brian something. He’s PhD and he is like the who’s who of adolescent programs in Utah. You know, it’s like 10 of them. He’s like the authority on the topic. And so his 13-year-old son is struggling substance use mental health, you know, and he goes to check him into like the next best program outside of his in Utah. And he goes up to the guy and he’s like, “Listen, it’s my son Joe. He needs to quit sneaking out, quit smoking pot. He’s drinking too much to get better grades. He has terrible relationships. Here’s the card. Here’s the RX. Here’s the treatment plan. I’m Brian, PhD. Do it. And the guy looks at him and it starts in the front of the book. And he hands him a card and it’s for a family intensive workshop. And the guy was blown away. He’s like, are you [ ] kidding me? Like I’m Did you check my resume? Like I don’t need that [ __ ] But the part the front end of the book is him sitting in the family program and doing his processing. Well, the book goes on to talk about a bunch of different things, but in the end, essentially when dad started his recovery, it wasn’t that long after that that his son began to not struggle with the issues that he had struggled with and he went on to live this happy and very purposeful life, but he was just following his dad. Because our kids will do what we do, not what we say. Mhm. And so I love what you said about showing up as a parent. It’s more about like taking care of myself and holding the space necessary, right, to stay in connection. Cuz to your point, I’ve done that so often in my recovery where I’m like, I come in and I’m like, this is what you have to do. I sever connection. I lose influence and they’re out and they’re gone. I think the way that you talk about recovery and the way you’ve shown up as a mom is ensuring that regardless hell or high water, I stay in connection and that can be really difficult to do especially when the ones we love are presenting with high-risisk behaviors and safety issues and things like that. They can be really really scary and so I appreciate you sharing that. Especially for moms um with kids that are, you know, potentially struggling with mental health, it’s so easy to go in and fix and it’s so much more difficult to hold space, you know, but that’s powerful. Yeah, that’s really really cool cuz my boys like they don’t I posted a video yesterday. It’s like they don’t People are like you work out with your boys. I’m like that’s like once a month they come into the garage and they bounce around on a ball and like lift a kettle bell. They don’t like work out with me nor would they ever. But they’re following pretty close behind because they see what daddy does, you know. And I’m a big fan of kind of um doing what I say and saying what I mean, which I think is you’ve kind of eloquently stated is kind of a prerequisite for recovery. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. What do you think are some of the common misconceptions about mental health? And why is it so difficult with people in your experience with mental health issues to find treatment or to seek treatment? I see a lot of people whose families discourage them from seeking treatment and like their families think there’s you know mental health is just not real and there that doesn’t matter and you shouldn’t that shouldn’t be a problem in your life and just deal and all that kind of stuff. And like then I just stopped them right there. Like that’s completely untrue. Yeah. Like mental health matters. Mental health is health. And you’re going to struggle in all of these different ways in your life until you get your mental health under control. Yeah, that’s a good point, too. Why do you think it is that I have my opinion, but why do you think families of young loved ones, call them young adults, I see it a lot with young adults, why do you think it’s so difficult for those families to say, “Yeah, you are struggling with a mental health issue and we should probably get you some help.” I don’t know. I think it it was never looked at like it is now or the way we try to look at it now. Um, and like older parents are thinking, well, we all just dealt with it. We didn’t have medications. We didn’t have therapy. And our kids should just do the same thing. And it’s a different world now. It’s way faster paced. Like, you have to take care of yourself. It makes that makes a lot of sense, actually. It’s just the access to information is just so much more at our fingertips than it ever was. Mhm. You know, I would never know there was going to be like a solar eclipse unless like, oh wow, we’re having a solar eclipse. Like we didn’t know, you know, that kind of thing. So, the access to information can create some intensity in one’s journey that otherwise probably wouldn’t be there. I love that you said that. And I also wonder too, you know, if we think about when Alcoholics Anonymous was formed, 1935, really really formed by like 1938, set in setting, like it’s World War II. Women don’t have rights. If you’re in 1935 and you’re a female and you have a mental health issue, that’s not good. No, that’s so bad. That’s not good. So, we’re only talking a few to two or three generations off of the World War II folks. And so that has to permeate into the information that our parents give us because not only would it exacerbate shame, but it would create um an unsafe situation. You know, I’ve I’ve heard stories of grandmas and mothers going and just never coming back. So that’s a very real thing. And not to mention the shame in 1935 he said he had a mental health disorder or substance related disorder. That’s why Alcoholics Anonymous formed in these church basement so nobody could see them, so nobody knew. And that’s why anonymity is so important. Um, do you think that’s a lot of it too is this kind of generational pain and shame from that? Oh, absolutely. The older generation definitely puts shame into any kind of mental health problems. Yeah. What do you think about the saying, this is like a more generational thing. What do you think about the saying of just kind of like dust off your boots, lace up your shoes, and put one step in front of the other? Do you find that beneficial for people that are mired in mental health? I mean, we’re all going to have to do that. Yeah. But people need more help to get there. Like some people can literally not put one foot in front of the other because they are so depressed or like they can’t get out of bed, they can’t shower, they can’t do the basic things that they need to do. And I think offering them help is the only way to go with that before saying, “Okay, just just do it.” Like you can’t tell someone in that situation to just do it. It’s not going to go well cuz they can’t. Yeah. Yeah. They literally just can’t put one foot in front of the other. Um some folks have difficulty ambulating, waking up, eating, bathing, all the kind of stuff you’re talking about. And I think sometimes people assume, well, they’re just a little bit depressed. Like get on with it, you know? Go get some sunshine. Oh yes. You don’t you love that one? Smile. Yes. Smile. Smile. It’ll be better soon. you know, and it’s so easy sometimes to be like when you’re in long-term recovery and sometimes I forget, you know, I’m just like, well, maybe if you just go outside and go for a walk and they’re like, what? Go outside? Go for a walk? It seems really, really difficult. Do you start with your um the guests that you work with? Do you start like from a obviously a treatment plan perspective that the clinician enacts, but do you try and start with like small goals like bite-sized chunks or how do you approach guests who are having difficulty putting one foot in front of the other? Um well, I start with their story as to why it’s happening. And usually there’s some kind of underlining issue as to why they can’t do these things or why they struggle to take care of themselves and try to so I try to address those things and have them discussed in therapy or with me or with anybody at our facility really. And I think as we address the underlining issues, they’re able to do more. Yeah. Yeah. I love that too. I I I often look at like big projects like I would imagine like going into treatments big project and I look at it and I’m like it’s too big I can’t do it. But I found if I could be like okay well today all I need to do is just go to this group eat lunch do another group and nothing else. I can do that part. And so I think sometimes, at least for me in early recovery and people that I had the opportunity to connect with, we look at the mountain and we’re like, we don’t have the tools to climb it. Um, but making smaller kind of bite-sized goals can really fortify that experience. And then you get what I like to call at the end of the day like a mental health victory, you know, and those are super important. And I see you, the providers, the nursing team, certainly the therapists and people that work at Peaks is like just shrink those goals a little bit, one day at a time. And it’s been my experience that if you can put a lot of one days at a time together, you know, 30, 60, 90, 120 days from now comes a lot better than I could have ever imagined. Yeah. So, I like that approach, too, because I think it’s um I think it’s more authentic than anything else and kind of meets people where they’re at, which I think is kind of the name of the game. I think a lot of people have trauma and that’s why they can’t like get in the shower or um and they have they need to address the trauma before we start forcing them to try to do this task that they feel like is impossible. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Compassion and empathy are the name of the game today. Um medication. Why are some people like we had it going on in our rounds this morning. Why do you think some people don’t want to engage in med medication uh management and what do you think the barrier to people engaging with that are in your experience? I think a lot of people have had bad experiences with medication, lots of side effects or um loss of libido like things that like anti-depressants can do and all that and people get turned off to them and just say, “Okay, I’m not going to try this.” And then there’s other people they’re just like, I’m just never putting that in my body. I never have, never will. Um and they want a more holistic approach. Well, thankfully we offer that. Yeah. But um we’re I mean we’re never going to push meds on people, but just educating like about maybe why they had more adverse effects to another medication than maybe something that we’re offering. Um we just provide education and let them make the decision. Yeah. Maybe one of the things too is that families, parents, loved ones, guests, whoever, at least I thought when I got into treatment that when I take this medication, it’s a life sentence and I’m going to be on this medication forever and the dose is going to have to go up. I’m going to have all these side effects. In your experience, are medications more seasonal or lifelong? It really depends on the person. Everybody is different, but I always recommend staying on whatever medication you’re on for at least 6 months before trying to think about coming off of it at all. And in that case, you should definitely go with a provider that can help you come off of it if that’s what you choose to do. But you got to give it at least 6 months to see. Um I mean, not if you’re having adverse effects, but if if you’re doing okay on it and not having side effects, like give it at least six months to see if it improves your life. Yeah, that makes sense. That’s really good advice, too. And suffice it to say, like, would this make sense? Like, there may be times, for example, I’ll just use my ADHD. There may be times, specifically when I got into treatment, where I just couldn’t sit still, keep my hands to myself, be present, focus on any of the material, engage in relationships. Um, and so I was on ADHD medication for probably three years and it helped kind of anchor me a little bit and helped me walk through a very kind of um, wild time in my early recovery. But then I found after three or four years that I was really dedicated to this passion that I had to walk with people in recovery and do this work. And so I was able to laser focus in on this thing and that season didn’t call for that same RX and I haven’t necessarily had to go back. But if I didn’t have it in my first three years, I don’t know if I’d be sober today. Mhm. So do you see that a lot too where it’s like this seasonality of for some folks um and then you process your trauma, you work through the issues, and then potentially you have a little bit of relief on the other side. Yeah, I’ve seen that. Okay, that’s huge too because I think sometimes with you know substance use recovery or medication management or the pharmacological approach whatsoever is I think some people assume that this is a life sentence and I have to be on this for the rest of my life. Yeah. Not necessarily. Yeah. I love that. I love that. That’s hopeful too. And there’s people like I have family members of mine that found a medication regimen that works really really well for them and they’ve been on it for 30 years. Yeah. And it’s all good. There’s ones like that too. Yeah, that makes sense, too. Um, one of my last questions that I’m really, really excited to chat with you about is I don’t think anybody sits in the position that you sit in as a medical supervisor, a provider, psychiatric, psychiatric nurse practitioner, a mom in recovery, um, without having an extraordinary extraordinary amount of passion to do this work. What is your why?
I mean, like I said, I’ve always wanted to help people. Um, but after having gone through traumatic experiences and making bad decisions with my mental health, how it was affected, um, almost ruining my life. Um I’m very passionate about helping people get to the same spot I’m in. And um seeing them recover when when I find someone that comes in in complete despair just in tears just I can’t fix this. I don’t know why I do this or I don’t know why I feel this way. And then, you know, we slowly work together with all the different things that we provide. And by the time they leave, they’re so relieved and so happy and have a smile on their face and are really hopeful. Um, that’s what I live for. So, I love that. I absolutely love that. And I have to imagine it was born or birthed out of a time when you wish that you had that or you felt like you didn’t. Oh, I wish I would have had a place like this when I was like that. Yeah. And I love that, too. And it what you said is so clear. It’s like if I can help one person not experience what I walk through and have the shame associated with that, I’m all in. That’s really, really cool. Yeah. So much shame I want to shelter everyone from because it’s just not necessary. Yeah. I love that you said that too. And I guess it’s not my last question. Um, but shame is probably a huge issue and a huge barrier for medical professionals trying to to say, “Hey, like I’m struggling with my mental health or I’m struggling with this, but because of the profession, which it should be the opposite. There should be like mental health health resources around every corner. These nurses are working 12-hour shifts three, four, five, six days a week. And then, you know, they’re experiencing big stories, big intense trauma, all these things.” and they’re like, “We’ll see you tomorrow. Have a good one.” You know, and so I really, really appreciate you coming on the show, being open-minded, compassionate, understanding, and authentic. I think it’s really, really important um for the viewers that are potentially seeking treatment, but the family members, the professionals that otherwise wouldn’t seek treatment without hearing a story like yours. So, I really, really appreciate that, Angela. Of course. Um, is there anything you would like to say to anybody watching right now who may be like, and you know, you know this is like having the phone in your hand and having the number up and just being like, “No, I’m not doing that. Yeah, I’m not doing that. All right, I’ll do it.” What would you say to somebody who’s right on the edge of making a one of the most courageous decisions in their life? What would you say to support them in that process? I mean, what do you have to lose? M like what you can continue how you are and feel as bad as you do all the time like you do or just take one step forward. Yeah. And that’s all you have to do. One step at a time. One step. Just one call. I love that. That’s beautiful. Yeah. And I always thought that too is I think somebody actually said that to me when I was getting sober. They’re like, “Well, you can always go back to this when you’re done.” I was like, “You promise?” They’re like, “I thought you hated it.” Yeah. It’s real bad. It’s real bad. But you if as long as it’s like okay and that that’s a courageous call to people out there is there was a point in my recovery right around 90 days where I sat down with Larry and he’s like I can’t promise you what your recovery is going to look like. All I can do is assure you that’s not going to be that. And I was like okay here we go. So thank you so much Angela. We really appreciate you coming on the show. Um, until next time my beautiful people. Peace.

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Episode 152The Heart Behind Healing: Jennifer Williams on Passion and Purpose in NursingWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/zqjwfhG4-OsListen NowDescriptionIn this episode of Finding Peaks, Chris Burns sits down with Peaks Recovery Centers’ Director of Nursing, Jennifer Williams, for an inspiring and heartfelt conversation about leadership, passion, and purpose in behavioral health care. Jen shares her journey into nursing, her path to behavioral health, and how she’s built a strong, compassionate team that keeps client care at the forefront. Together, Chris and Jen explore the importance of self-care, staying grounded in what we can control, and how connection and passion drive meaningful impact in recovery work. From adjusting to life in Colorado to defining what makes Peaks Recovery stand apart, this episode offers a powerful look into the heart behind healing and the leadership that fuels it.

Talking Points1. Introduction to the Show 2. Meet Jennifer 3. Building a strong nursing team 4. The power of passion 5. Focusing on self-care 6. Coming to behavioral health 7. Jen’s story 8. What can be controlled 9. Adjusting to Colorado 10. What sets Peaks Recovery Centers apart? 11. Final thoughts Quotes

“You can’t change what’s happened in the past, but you can absolutely take charge of what happens in the future’”.– Jennifer Williams, Director of Nursing

Episode Transcripts

Episode -152- TranscriptsBut the thing is is that you cannot make somebody want to get treatment and want to get better. It has to come from the person. The shame has this ability to cause decision making that people otherwise wouldn’t make. You know, you can’t change what’s what’s happened in the past, but you can absolutely take charge of what happens in the future. I love that.
Hey everybody and welcome to another amazing, exciting, and of course enthusiastic episode of Finding Peaks. Yours truly, founder, chief executive officer here at Peaks Recovery Centers. So grateful to be back after a six-w weekek hiatus. I hope everybody enjoys the new amenities here. We got new brown wood floors. The sound is coming off it. Something fierce today. But uh even bigger than that, I’m so grateful to be joined by a friend and colleague, our director of nursing, Jennifer Williams. Welcome to the spot. Thank you. Absolutely. Grateful to have you on. Um Jen started with us, I want to say probably 3 months ago, August. August. And it was a real honor of mine to um be a part of that interview process, bring Jen on. She was certainly my most favorite candidate. and the work that she’s done since she’s been here um is very clear uh as to why I think she was a great candidate. She shows up early, stays late, shows up for the team, and does all things um a director would do in that nursing department. So, really grateful to have her on the team. I believe that she is connected with and embodies kind of our mission to save lives and certainly disrupt the industry through quality of care. And so, um you have BSN, right? I do. How long have you been a nurse? So I actually graduated in 2019. So it has not been that long. You know, you would kind of think that the progression would have been a little bit slower, but everybody takes their own path in nursing. Some people want to be bedside forever. Some people just kind of move into, you know, uh NP, CCRN, that kind of thing. But I just felt like I kind of had that leadership calling. So I only worked in the hospitals and outside of leadership for about three years. And then I started moving into leadership. So, um, yeah, not that long, but I think the progression was just kind of natural for me because I just enjoy helping people. I enjoy helping patients, but I also enjoy helping, you know, co-workers. So, it was just natural for me. So, was that passion, obviously, you graduated high school quite a bit before that. Uhhuh. How did you find that passion to help others? like was that something that you grew up with that you’ve always connected with or was there something that happened that you got into you got involved in nursing? Yeah, that’s a really good question. So I when I went to college the first time nursing wasn’t even on my radar. I went I got a sociology and society and justice. I wanted to go to law school and then I started working with lawyers and I said no I’m good. Yeah. Um, so it was it wasn’t until I was married actually and I it took us a long time to conceive. And so going to doctor’s appointment after doctor’s appointment and um you could really tell the difference between the nurses that were there to really help and the ones that were there to get a paycheck. And I thought, you know, I’d really like to be able to help people and do this kind of thing. So I thought about it and I was I did, you know, have kids and I thought, “Oh, I’m too old. I’ve got kids. it’s going to be too hard to go to nursing school. So, I just kept putting it off and putting it off and putting it off. Um, and then finally, I was just what am I waiting for, you know? I I Yeah, I just I thought that I really needed to to just pursue that even though I felt like I was too old. So, I did. And it was really hard if I’m being honest. Yeah, it seems like it. But to your point, it’s uh my mom was an RN and my favorite people whenever I go to the hospital or I go to my primary care doc or whatever it is, my favorite people to connect with professionally or certainly as um a client, patient or guest is a great nurse, right? And those those nurses that are really really great, you remember them. They kind of stick with you. They’re so caring. Their bedside manner is phenomenal. Um, and so I really really love phenomenal nurses and I think they’re really I’ve always described them as like the glue that holds everything together. Yeah. Oh, I agree with that. It’s, you know, because you have the doctors, those are, you know, they’re important. The providers are super important and and the, you know, the photamists and the CNAs and the respirator, everybody is important, but it is kind of the the nurse that’s kind of at the center of that, right? It’s kind of making sure they’re kind of the nucleus, I guess you would say, just to make sure that it all fits together and it runs well. It’s definitely true. What is it about leadership in nursing that drew you in that direction as opposed to um potentially just working as an RN? Um I just think that I have I think I have ability to really connect with people and it doesn’t really matter who they are. I think I can understand them and I can be compassionate and empathetic with them. So, and I think that that’s what really makes a good leader is somebody that isn’t standing above someone and looking down and saying, “Do this, do that.” It’s somebody that’s that’s in there, right? And they can recognize, you know, maybe this person’s having a hard day or maybe this person’s going through some struggles and it’s the ability to step back from it, you know, maybe being frustrated, right? They didn’t show up to work or whatever and really being able to step back and say, “Well, they probably have something going on.” you really need to have that that extra piece, that empathetic piece. Um, and I think that I I think I’m pretty good at that. So, I just um and people kind of naturally come to me if they have problems and that could be co-workers or just, you know, people in my life um for advice and because I think that I can I I think I can step back and I can really um think and listen and you know, not listen to respond, right? But, you know, I’m listening and I really actually want to have um, you know, constructive things to say rather than emotional. So, I think I do I do a good job with that. So, it just comes naturally, I think. Yeah, I think you do phenomenal with it actually. And that willingness to kind of get your hands dirty and sit by side by side um, with your employees, with your team, I think is extraordinary. Actually, I just hired our billing director, and that was one of the things that really stuck out in the interview was this willingness and this ability to get down, sit side by side with people, and do the work. Do the work alongside their team members. And it’s interesting, too, because you came from another treatment program. Um, and like five nurses followed you. Yeah. We’re like, you know, at least two full-time, three part-time. But that’s that speaks to me. The same thing happened with the billing director. I didn’t hire a billing specialist cuz she’s like, I got two. M I already know. I’ve worked with them for 5 years. Um what is it about that connectivity within your team that creates the best opportunity for patient care? Why is it so important to have a cohesive, not just a medical team, but specifically a nursing team? They probably have more touch points than anybody else on the medical team. Why is it so important to have a good culture and synergy within that department? Culture is everything in nursing. Um I mean you can just you can feel the culture. So, I think that at Peaks, for example, you know, anybody that walks in, I think that they can feel the culture. It doesn’t matter where you are, um, on the team, but they can feel it. And it’s especially important in nursing. I mean, it’s it’s hard. It’s 12 hours, um, you know, 3 to four days a week. It’s overnight. It’s 24 hours a day. So, you really have to have that cohesiveness. You have to be able to pass on information. You have to be able to, um, communicate effectively. You have to be able to And you have to be happy. Yeah. You know, you can’t I guess you could, but as a nurse, you have to have some passion for what you’re doing and you have to enjoy showing up to work because if you don’t, then you’re just robotic. Anybody can pass out medications and anybody can read a MAR. Um, you know, anybody can do that, but you have to have the passion behind it. And that’s just created by the whole team. It’s not me, it’s not one nurse, it’s everybody. Um, and that speaks to what I was saying earlier, you know, just you have to be able to really understand the people that you’re working with. You have to be able to understand them. You have to be able to listen to them and you have to be able to care. If you don’t care, you know, you’re not going to have people that are going to show up for you. It’s just not going to happen. They’re just, you know, you bring up a really good point. It’s almost like it should be like a prerequisite when you’re going through the nursing school to be like, “What’s your lived experience? Why are you here? Are you passionate? Because this job, if you’re not passionate, I would imagine can be extraordinarily difficult. Oh, yeah. The passion has to be there. And I don’t think anybody gets into nursing and they think, I don’t really like helping people, but just want to make a couple bucks. I just, you know, just want to make some money because nursing is hard. It doesn’t matter what setting you’re in. It’s hard. Not always, but it’s hard. So, you really have to have that passion. If you don’t, you’ll burn out. Yeah. You just will. You know, you’re just going to you’re going to show up. And it it happens. It happens a lot. Um, so you have to have that passion. Yeah. Otherwise, you’re just not going to last. Why would you say that? Maybe it’s in behavioral health, but maybe it’s just in the field in general. But why is there so much nursing burnout? Similar to like counseling and primary therapy and things of that nature. Yeah. Well, I think that it’s a combination of it’s long hours, it’s long days, sometimes it’s overnights. The overnights will will really get to you. Um, but I think that it’s also it’s just it’s emotionally. So, it can be physically hard, it’s emotionally hard, it can just be taxing on your, you know, just your body and your nervous system at all times. So, if you just continue that year after year after year, um, without having that underlying passion and that underlying happiness, um, then you’re going to burn out a lot faster. Yeah. Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense. You know, when when people are going to counseling schools, as I started my um education with counseling, a lot of there’s a lot of talk and a lot of verbiage, not necessarily in textbooks, but there’s a lot of talk about self-care. Oh, yeah. About taking great care of myself so that I can show up and kind of empty the tank for others. Maybe you could chat with the viewers a little bit about what is that is it just as important for nursing? What could that self-care look like? And how does it make a better professional? Yeah. I So, I’m not going to lie. I’m really bad at self-care. So, I feel a little bit hypocritical saying I feel like making sourdough is self-care. It is. It is. I’m trying. And gardening. Yeah. There you go. Um it’s I mean it’s anything that you can do to step away. It’s really really important to be able to not be connected when you’re not at work. And I really encourage the nurses that I work with, hey, if you’re not here, don’t be here. Yeah. Go go go home. do whatever it is that you like to do. Go hang out with your family. Go walk your dog. Go pet your cats. Um, you know, get a massage. Get your toes done. Um, whatever it is that that you enjoy doing. It’s super important. But nurses in general are really bad at taking care of themselves. Yeah. It’s just it’s just the way that you are because that’s what you came into the profession for is to help other people. So, you’re not you’re not at the like the forefront of the people that you want to take care of even when you’re not at work. Yeah. Yeah. Because then you, you know, you may have kids or a husband or a wife or or whomever and you’re you’re catering to them because that’s just the nature of nurses most of the time. That makes sense. So I would imagine that after you’ve said that that maybe codependency becomes a an issue within the nursing profession as well as it does in other clinical jobs. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. It’s They probably don’t talk about it in nursing school though, huh? No. Or in residency for doctors, you know, when you’re going through all of that kind of stuff. But it would make sense to me that and self-care can come in a million different varieties. Selfcare could literally be just turning off your chats and sitting on the couch and quiet. Yes. You know, something like that. I was talking to one of the nurses the other day and she goes she goes, “Yeah, I went home and I sat in my bed with my dog and I ate a bag of of gummy bears.” And I was like, “That’s perfect. I love that. Sounds so good.” That’s one of those things where like there’s been seasons of my life where like I leave work in my car like a magnet just pulls into 7-Eleven and my head like a magnet goes right over to the ice cream thing and grabs a pint of Ben & Jerry’s. There you go. And I’m like for a while there and I know Ben and Jerry’s especially the whole pint isn’t good for you. Yeah. But there was these moments in these seasons where that was the best self-care I could do. And certainly I want to grow up and out of that and I have. But I I just I love kind of um broadening that self-care thing because a lot of people will look and say, “Well, I don’t want to wake up at 4:00 and I don’t want to go running.” None of that. Yeah. Just take great care of yourself. And that’s about as of an individualized process as it comes. Oh, for sure. You know, fishing, baking, gardening, all that stuff. Reading, you know, walking, running, you know, you live in the beautiful state of Colorado, so there’s so much to do. Yep. Have you gotten out and seen these aspens? No. Oh, I know. Oh, you just got to drive to Twin Lakes this weekend. Okay. I mean, it’s I was just there last weekend. There is a tree. A little off topic. There is a tree on your way to Twin Lakes and it’s it’s on the Arkansas River. Mhm. And it’s right on the right hand side. There’s a little pulloff and it is the brightest yellow fall tree I’ve ever seen in my life. It looks like it’s on fire. Wow. I would go back just to see that tree. Oh, wow. It’s absolutely cool. And I love fall. It matters too because it’s change of the seasons. Right. Right. And the only thing constant is change. And certainly with what we do as a profession day in and day out, nothing’s the same. Yeah. And I really really love that about our field. What was it about or maybe it wasn’t about anything, but what brought you into behavioral health? Uh, well, to be honest, when I first got into it, it I kind of stumbled upon it and I remember looking at the job description and I thought I’ve never really considered doing behavioral health or, you know, substance abuse. I’ve never considered that. But when I thought about it, I thought I think that I would be I think that would be perfect for me. I don’t feel like this was an accident that I stumbled you know across this this job because um you know I have absolutely had um I’ve been impacted in my life from substance substance abuse. So, um, I just said, “Why not? Let’s try it.” Right? That’s kind of what you do when in life, right? Let’s let’s try it. And I did. And I thought, “Yeah, this is this is definitely something that that I I think that is a passion of mine.” And I didn’t even know it would be. I thought that, you know, because of my experience getting into nursing in general that I would be more interested in like fertility and babies and children, but that’s not the case. So, was um your previous employer, was that your first job in behavior health? It was. Okay. Yep. Cool. And you chatted a little bit about it and I I know your story a little bit, but what was the lived experience and how has it impacted you as a professional? Oh, as far as the the substance Yeah. Maybe you maybe you grew up with substance use. I know your uh former husband um struggled with substance use and mental health issues and things of that nature. Um, yeah. What was that lived experience if you don’t mind talking about it? No, I don’t. Um, well, I would say so, uh, you know, I got married when I was pretty young, 24, and all is well. You want to do all the things, you know, get married, have kids, and and you know, we struggled with that a little bit, but we did. And, um, you know, my my ex, he he slowly transitioned from kind of a casual, you know, social drinker and, you know, we were young and going out and doing the things. Uh but it transitioned into more than that and I started to notice changes. So you know kind of shady behaviors, things going on and and you know I would start to notice um he was very functioning. So there was that. It was very hard. It was really hard to identify. Um but I just started noticing little things and you know I would kind of catch him like why are you drinking right now? Or, you know, there would be times, for example, we would be leaving to go to our son’s football game on a Saturday, you know, and he’d forget something in the house and he would run back inside and I’ve I I would catch him like chugging alcohol and I would find empty water bottles and I started getting so suspicious like I’d smell them, right, because vodka is clear, you know? So, I’d start smelling every water bottle. Um, you know, I would start taking sips of his drinks just to see kind of what was in them. And it just really turned into um just a really a life that I was not excited about because I was always the bad guy. I was always searching. I was I mean I would search through his car. I would search through his pockets for whatever I could find because it’s just like am I going crazy? And you know what’s going on here? What what is what is wrong? Um so it was really hard. I mean and we dealt with that. I mean, it probably started way before I even really had it on my radar. Um, you know, because the kids were young and yeah. Um, so it was it I I just felt like I was going crazy because all I was ever doing was looking for the reason. So yeah, that was, you know, that was kind of the progression. It was years. It’s interesting you bring that up. That’s a lot of parents and spouses and um a lot of the relational components that you brought up is a lot a lot of what people bring up when they talk about the progression of alcoholism or the progression of mental health or the progression of substance use because I was the type of person who would drink and I’d have my drink in my hand with alcohol in it and my girlfriend at the time be like you’re drinking I’d be like absolutely not. Yeah. And she’s like what am I going crazy? Because it really starts to make you feel like not only you the bad person but like am I being scapegoed here? Yeah. You know. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, and I just I felt like I was the the one doing something wrong because I’m always sneaking around trying to find proof and I’m just going what what is happening? And it’s just, you know, one of the things that’s the most difficult for me is the fact that, you know, I think a lot of people there’s a stigma, right? You think, oh, it’s an alcoholic. It’s not a good person. It’s not they don’t have a job or they, you know, all of these things that may that may trigger in people’s minds about an alcoholic. And the hardest thing for me is that all of that was quite the opposite. He was a wonderful person, a really good dad, a good son, a good, you know, a good husband to the best of his ability, right? Um, so he was just a really good person. So that’s why sometimes, you know, I hesitate to say that I had those troubles with him because he he was such a good person and he just got lost. Yeah. Just totally lost. I really appreciate you mentioning that too because shame has this ability to cause decision making that people otherwise wouldn’t make um and a lesser degree of shame. And I think having some compassion and some grace for that and that’s why I always lean towards like alcoholic I called myself an alcoholic for six years of sobriety and I don’t do that anymore. I struggled with a mental health disorder of which I coped with alcohol in a season of my life where it was really really intense. But me today, I I just don’t subscribe to that alcoholic thing anymore. And I think that’s hopeful for our viewers and people that might potentially call Peaks Recovery home because our goal here is not just to save lives, but like help you heal, right? So you can go on and live a normal life, whatever that looks like in your recovery. So I really appreciate you saying that because a lot of the people that I know that I that we have the opportunity to meet on a daily basis, we meet them on their worst day. Yeah. And then if they finish the program, we get to hang out with them on one of their best days. Those are phenomenal humans. Yeah, they’re good people. They’re really good people. And you know, I think that’s the perspective that I always have because I see them and I see them as a person. They have families, they have kids, they have parents, they have jobs. Um, and you know, I think like what you said, I think that he really struggled with with, you know, some of the things from his past. Yeah. And he didn’t want to talk about it, didn’t want to deal with it. Um, or maybe he did. I’m not quite sure to be honest with you. And there’s those coping mechanisms, right? You can numb the pain. Yeah. Um and unfortunately, that’s that’s what he did, you know, to a very severe extent. So you um I don’t know if I’ve ever said this to you before, but I think Aborate said it, I’ve said it on the show, but since we’re throwing so much grace into this space, grace into the space. Um it’s hard to get enough of something that almost works. Yeah. Pretty sure Gabbor Mate said that. But when you look at Right. talk about somebody’s past and the inability to deal with it. You know, alcohol is a is a really great anxiety suppressant, right? And generally people start with one drink and if they haven’t dealt with the intensity in the past, it turns into two and before you know it, I’m in a space that I didn’t necessarily want to be, right? I just want to treat the anxiety, right? And it’s clear why I have anxiety, right? You know, so that can be really, really difficult to not just witness, but to be in a relational component with to have kids. Mhm. Um, were you guys uh separated? Uh, we did eventually separate. Okay. You guys separated? Yeah. So, eventually, um, so, you know, it it’s really interesting and I obviously know this now and I did not know it at the time, but I I told him this is going to tear apart our family because I can’t live like this with the kids and you. I can’t I can’t live like this. So, I really want you to to do what it is that you need to do to to get help. my parents um and his parents paid for him to go to an outpatient, you know, treatment center that he always found a reason that he couldn’t go to. Yeah. Um and I I just I I just said, you know, after all these failed attempts and and I’ll I’ll I’ll get better on my own. I’ll fix it on my own. Um which obviously didn’t happen. And you know, finally I just said, I can’t do this anymore. And to be honest with you, I thought that might work, right? I mean, him and I were together for over 17 years. Wow. That is not something that you want to throw away easily. But I just said, I I just can’t. So, maybe that will work. But the thing is is that you cannot make somebody want to get treatment and want to get better. It has to come from the person. Yeah. Because it’s just not going to work if somebody else wants you to do it. If you don’t have the desire and you aren’t at the place where you want to see something change in your life, it’s not going to happen. Yeah. I didn’t realize that at the time. Mhm. And to go back onto the shame thing, once we disconnect, I remember telling myself, I hate people. But that’s where my alcoholism and my anxiety and my depression had brought me to this space where I’m just like, leave me alone. And so a lot of times with that shame on our back, right, we have a separation in relationship. It it often times get worse because I’m telling myself a narrative that I don’t want that. I don’t need that and I’m not because the shame’s just so heavy. Yeah. And so often times they slip. Sometimes it’ll be a call to to courage, but other times it slipped kind of uh into more of a deficit there. Yeah. So, what ultimately ended up happening? So, we were we were separated and I had initiated the divorce process. Um, and it was really it was really scary. That’s one of the reasons also that kind of pushed me into finally getting my my nursing degree because I I knew that it was probably going to go down the path of me needing to support the boys on my own. Mh. So um so we were uh going through a divorce. Um I had you know been dating a somebody for a while and um I woke up uh in early morning I woke up. I had to take the kids to school and I had a text message from somebody that I didn’t know and they said, “Hey, um can you go check on him? I haven’t I haven’t heard from him in a couple of days.” He didn’t live he was in an apartment not too far from from me. So, I dropped the boys off and I went to his house. Um, but long story short, he was he had passed away. I bet that was extremely hard. Yeah. Yeah. And where does what does a mother do from that point? Two kids. I know a lot of our viewers, a lot of our guests that call Peaks home have had some of that experience as well, but how did you turn that corner, Jen? I mean, I will tell you that um the worst moment of my life was telling my kids. That was that was the worst moment. I don’t think there’s going to be a lot of worse moments than that. Um but, you know, I just had to focus on them, right? I just had to say, “Look, I have to be the mom. I have to be the dad. I have to be all the things.” And it was terrifying. It was It was absolutely terrifying. But I just said, you know, it’s happened, right? I can’t go back. I had a lot of guilt, to be honest with you. What did I do wrong? What was my part in all of this? How could I have done things differently? Um, but it’s just you got to pick yourself up by your bootstraps, as they used to say, and just, you know, you have to power forward. We weren’t divorced, so I had to to figure out all of the things. um you know all cuz he had a whole you know kind of his own property and life going on and so I had to figure all of that out you know um but I just you know of course I mean I cried myself to sleep I can’t tell you how many times um because just because you don’t want to be together with somebody doesn’t mean that you that you know you want them out of your life right um and obviously the kids’ lives so just move on and figure out how to move on and had a lot of um you know there’s been a lot days where it’s it’s really difficult, but I’m there for my boys. Yeah. That’s I think as a mother or a parent, right, it’s like, well, they they they have to be able to rely on me. So, that’s what I did. Wow. That’s super heroic. It’s very emotional. I have two boys. Yeah. And I and I um I see the way my boys look at me as their father. Yeah. And how difficult that conversation must have been for you. Yeah. Um, so shout out to you for having the courage to step up and do what you needed to do to inform or continue to inform a solid foundation for those boys. Yeah. I mean, it’s, you know, I’m not going to lie, it’s it was a really difficult conversation I had with myself like, how am I going to be the dad? How am I going to do the the boy things and um puberty and all these things that are going to come up someday? And um you know I I had hoped of course like obviously not at the time but I had hoped that I would I would eventually find somebody that that could kind of fill that role for them. Um and I did. So that’s that’s good. But it was a lot of dark moments with myself and just the type of person that I am. I just I spent a lot of time wondering, you know, what was my part in it? And I struggled with that a lot. Um, I still do to be honest with you, but you know, you can’t change what’s what’s happened in the past, but you can absolutely take charge of what happens in the future. I love that. There’s this You ever been to Alanon? I have. Have you? Yeah. So, there’s this saying in Alanon. I’ve only been to like two meetings my whole life. Yeah. But my wife was an Allen honor and um they have this saying in Alanon that says, “You didn’t cause it and you can’t fix it.” I remember when I heard that for the first time. I was blown away. Yeah. But I think it’s important especially in situations of grief and loss and things of that nature. You know, my old sponsor used to tell me because I would have sponses and they would go out and drink. They called me the sobriety reaper. They would all drink. Like for my first two years, everybody drank. It was not helpful to anybody. And he was he would always say to me, he would always say, “There’s a center of the universe or potentially there’s a god and it’s definitely not you, Chris Burns.” Yeah. you know, and so to release myself from that control and to know that everybody has decisions to make and things happen and often times I don’t have a lot of um connection with on with how those things turn out. Yeah. You know, but again, I can’t imagine having walked through I’ve walked through a certain amount of grief in my life. It’s just a it’s an interesting thing to process and then to process it alongside two boys that probably look like their dad um is probably even more difficult. Yeah. How have you taken that power and thank you so much for sharing that. I know those stories are hard to talk about, but how have you taken that experience? How has that informed the professional that shows up today and the way that you deal with guests that are struggling in a lot of ways with very similar issues? Oh, yeah. I mean, it it just it really enhances my ability to see them, to really see them. Um because like I had touched on earlier, I think that there’s the stigma um that goes along with, oh, they’re addicted to something or, you know, if that’s if that’s what they’re there for. Um there’s a stigma around that. And I think that if you can if you can talk to them and in a very genuine way, which is not hard to do, um and just really say, “Hey, I see you here.” And the thing that that that you’re doing right now is the hardest thing because it’s really easy to be at home with some with a substance in your hand or a drink in your hand. That’s easy. Being here is really hard. So, I think having that insight and saying, you know, I don’t know you, but I’m really proud of the fact that you chose to be here and that you want your life to be different and you’re making, you know, those decisions and those steps forward. Um, and I think that it really makes makes me it gives me the the ability to really see them, to see them as a person, not a guest, not a patient, not um, you know, somebody that has has, you know, that is struggling, it makes me really be able to see them. And I’ll share my story when it’s, you know, when it’s appropriate, but it’s also not about me. Yeah. Um, but if I feel like somebody could use it, you know, I’ve done that in the past and said, um, you know, like when younger people come in and and I see, um, you know, that they’re they’re really struggling and I say, you know, you’ve got this. You have you have a mom and a dad, I’m sure, that are so proud to see you here. Um, you know, you’re not much older than my son. Um, yeah. Right. So, I’m just really proud that especially the younger kids, but I’m just proud to see you here and to see you making those steps because it’s super hard. It is not an easy decision to make. Yeah. So, I love that, too. And you know firsthand like what type of courage it takes to make that decision, right? And you would think, you know, like I break my ankle, I go to the doctor, right? Everyone does. Yeah. Even if you don’t have insurance, I go to the ER, go to the doctor, right? Whatever reason with this mental health thing and this substance use thing. Yeah. I break myself, but I’m not going to the doctor. Right. It’s very interesting the way that that works on this side of healthcare. Oh, it absolutely. And you know, I see the work that people do. you know, we have, you know, amazing therapists and I hear them talking about, you know, some of our guests and what they’re going through and what they’ve experienced and that they use substances in those cases, you know, to to help mask those feelings and to help mask um, you know, their experiences and they they’re doing the work and the therapists are incredible at really peeling back the layers and really seeing, you know, what’s the root cause because, you know, I don’t think that people just all of a sudden start drinking just for fun and then get in, you know, get into it so hard that they can’t get out of it. There’s really an underlying reason why they’ve started and continued. I agree. And you’re right. I I haven’t met anybody in almost 20 years of doing this. It’s like, you know what, six years old, I was like, I’m going to I’m going to be an alcoholic. Yeah. Not a single person. They want to knock the edge off. It grows. It exacerbates, it progresses, which we know is a side effect, right, of this thing. So, so now you’re in Colorado. Yeah. You got beautiful family. I do. Remarried. How long have you been married? Um, better get it right. I feel like I’m not. Uh, not quite a year and a half. Oh, cool. Not not very long. Right on. Yeah. So, you guys have a bigger family now. Mhm. Guys, were your six six person family or is it five? No, it’s uh my husband and I and then we have three boys. Okay, so five. Yeah. Okay, cool. That’s exactly what I grew up with. mom and dad and then uh three boys. Yeah. Yeah. How has uh the move? How has Colorado been? How has the new family? How are things in your life? It’s been great. I mean, it’s certainly an adjustment, right? Uh, of course, I told the boys, “Hey, we’re going to It wasn’t a surprise, right?” You know, cuz my husband has lived out here and if we were going to be together, I had to move here. He Um, so there was definitely some apprehension. uh didn’t want to leave their friends, didn’t you know, didn’t want to I mean, it’s familiar, right? So, but we moved out here and they were great sports and they’ve got friends and, you know, my older son has a girlfriend that’s super sweet. She’s adorable. Um, just really engaged in in life and community and their schools and they’re doing really well. Um, you know, I have to give a shout out to my husband because he’s incredible. He’s done such a good job. uh just stepping into that role. He understands, of course, that he’s he’s not their father, but he knows how important it is to me, you know, to have that male figure. Um, so that, you know, just the guy things, right? Like he wrestles with them and he shows him moves and he does all that stuff. That’s not my Yeah. You know, that’s not my role. So, it’s been great. And um you know, of course, my husband knows all of the things um that have happened and he’s very understanding and empathetic of kind of those those times when uh you know, just it like it can get heavy sometimes. So, he’s really good at that. That’s really cool. He seems like a badass cuz that’s a that’s a tougher situation to step into and to be able to show up for. Oh, I mean being a steparent is one thing, but being a steparent to to two boys that were eight and 12, you know, and they lost their dad. Um, that’s huge. And not I I would actually say there’s not a lot of men in general that not only would be willing to do that, but would be really good at it. Yeah. Um, and he’s really good at it. Yeah. That gave me chills when he said that. That’s a that’s a stack deck. And he walked right in. He’s like, he did. I mean, and he knew it. and he’s just like, “Bring it on.” You know, he’s he’s always up for a challenge. Um, but it hasn’t even been that much of a challenge. I mean, he’s said to me many times before, you know, your boys could tell me to screw off and, you know, go away. Cuz he he’s a little bit more of a disciplinarian than I am. Sure. And he, you know, they they could tell me to screw off and leave them alone. You’re not my dad. They’ve never said that to him. Um, you know, so they’ve really embraced him as well. and they they I think they can see that he really cares and he’s there for them, but he’s not trying to, you know, come in with that like I’m your new dad, you know, that kind of thing. That’s cool. What a delicate dance. Oh, for sure. For sure. Not everybody can do, but it it really appears like you have a seems like you guys are thriving. We are. Yeah, it’s it I’m not going to lie. It’s when you’re merging families, it can be it can be challenging. I don’t think anybody would tell you that it’s not. But, you know, we listen to each other. We, you know, we communicate with each other. He really knows how to listen to me and and if I say, “Hey, you need to back off.” He backs off. Um, he’s really good at it. And I get along amazing with his son. He’s he’s an incredible kid. So, it it was pretty easy, I would say, if you’re going to put it on the scale. Yeah. Um it could have been a lot harder, but it’s been really really really great and I I love it here and I’m really really happy um you know just that I found him. That’s cool. So I’m really happy for you. What a story. Right. Yeah. What an incredible, miraculous, sad, and extraordinary story. It really, really is. Yeah. Um now to Peak’s Recovery. I know you worked at another place across town. Not even across town. a few miles away from Peak’s recovery. What was it about Peaks that drew you there and what’s keeping you here now? Oh, well, so when I showed up, you know, I came for two interviews and I showed up and you can just feel it. You from the minute that you walk in the door and everybody is welcoming and hey, how are you? Everybody is so kind and that’s that’s across the board. So, the guests feel it. They have to. Everybody that I talk to that I’ve brought in and they just they can feel it. They can feel the passion. They can feel the enthusiasm. They can feel the care. It’s not just a place where you go and it’s like, “Oh, here you go. Here’s your number. Here’s your room.” I mean, you sit down with with the guests all the time. Um, and just connect with them. Everybody does. It’s one of my favorite things. And you can you can just feel it. It might sound cheesy, but it’s true. you really can. Um, you know, like you said, I came from a different center and that I don’t think that was the case. I mean, here it’s just way different. And what keeps me here is that you you allow me to stay. I mean, I was telling somebody the other day, I was like, I hope they never fire me because I’m not leaving. Yeah. Somebody asked me the other day, they’re like, “How’s the medical team doing?” I’m like, “Swimmingly, swimmingly.” And there’s actually no follow-up questions if you say swimmingly. Yeah. I’m like, “Is that it? That’s your only question?” Like, “Okay, I’m done. Nothing to say here. Yeah, I love that. You know, it’s interesting that you brought that up and we didn’t even talk about this before the show. Yeah. Um but I always I when I used to call the families, not but year and a half ago, I called every single family that came into the program. I would I would often tell them that you’re going to feel something at Peak’s recovery and and and it’s going to be different. You won’t be able to really define it. Yeah. But it’ll keep you there. And it’s like this space, you know, you had talked about it in our maybe it was in our interview or maybe it was after you were hired, but the the former place that you worked at, you’re like you’d come in and you’d like feel the anxiety. Oh yeah. And feel the tension and feel the intensity. And a lot of our guests, families that have come through, alumni, um, and all points in between really speak to this thing that you can’t see. Yeah. This special sauce at Peaks Recovery. Oh yeah. Why do you think is it the team in general? Is it the way we work together? Is it the mission? Is it all the things? But what do you think creates that in your experience? I think it’s all the things. I really I really do because just it’s just a feeling when you walk in the door and you, you know, like you said, you can’t explain it, but everybody just from the minute you walk in the door, everybody is so kind and welcoming and they all have a smile on their face, which is a credit, right? Because it speaks to what I was saying earlier that you have to want to come to work. You have to want to be there. It’s not just a job. Yeah. I I think for probably 95 plus percent of the people that work there. Yeah. It’s not just a job. It’s it’s a it’s a passion. It’s um you know the communication, the community because we all are really like a team, a very cohesive team. And it’s it’s special. You can feel it because when the team is like that, just like in nursing, when the entire team is like that, it just shines from everybody. Yeah. Yeah. And it I you know, I hate for it to sound cheesy, but it’s so true. It really is. I And I’m not just saying that because I, you know, I work at Peaks. I’m saying it because I can feel it. It’s the moment you walk in the front door. Yep. I’m walking across that long walk we have to do now cuz we can’t park in the parking lot. That was your You told me that. Yeah. And I’m like walking in and I think to myself like I’m looking at Pike Speak. I’m like, “You better find your gratitude button, Chris, cuz you’re about to walk in this door and it’s going to be all over you. There’s Miss Pat.” Ah, there’s Leah. Hey, you know, there’s Fred. It was like, “Oh, shoot. We’re going.” And everybody’s like, and it’s one of those environments where whenever I try to just go by somebody and they say, “Hey, how are you?” It’s like unacceptable. Come back. How are you? I’m like, “Oh, okay. I’m doing well. Happy Wednesday.” All the stuff. Yes. Let’s Yeah, let’s get into it. How was your weekend? That’s not enough. You know, I need to know all the things. What did you get out of your garden this weekend? Where’d you go fishing? Yeah. But it’s so cool because it actually it invites and allows in a workspace something that I think is absent from a lot of professional careers and that’s presence right with each other. And if we can do that or when we do that with each other that experience titrates down to our guests, right? All the staff members and they get to have that experience as well, right? And they, you know, they’re free to walk around anywhere and they can see our conversations with one another. they can see the professionalism and that they can see that we actually care about each other and I’m actually interested in you and you’re interested in in me and what I have going on in my life and they can see that. Yeah. You know, if you’re working in a place where you walk in and everybody’s just, you know, if you’re working somewhere like that and the the guests can see that too. So, um you know, that just really speaks to just the the environment in general, it’s a lot different. I love that. That was well articulated as well. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. Well, it’s been an extraordinary opportunity bringing you on our wonderful podcast. I want to say we’re probably on60s something episodes or getting close to that. Um, but I really appreciate you allowing me to do what I’ve been doing since 2008, which is turning professional conversations personal one day at a time. Yeah. You know, I think it really really matters the lived experience, the passion associated with it, and then of course the the client care and the guest care that comes as a result. So, thank you so much for coming on. So bold, so humble, and um so authentic. It really means the world. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Cool. Well, I appreciate you. Until next time. Peace.

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Episode 151Carrying the Weight: The Unseen Life of First RespondersWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/TExf14gIzI4Listen NowDescriptionIn this impactful episode of Finding Peaks, Chris Burns sits down with Curtis Curran, a retired New Mexico State Police Officer, for a candid and heartfelt conversation about the realities of life as a first responder. Curtis opens up about the unseen weight law enforcement officers carry daily, sharing personal stories that highlight both the challenges and the deep sense of purpose that come with the badge. From the responsibility of delivering next-of-kin notifications to the importance of mental health support, therapy, and sharing trauma, Curtis brings an honest perspective to the human side of policing. This conversation offers insight, gratitude, and a powerful reminder of the dedication it takes to serve and protect. Thank you, Officer Curtis, for your service and ongoing commitment to your community.

Talking Points1. Introduction to the Show 2. Meet Officer Curtis Curran 3. Police training 4. Next of kin responsibility 5. Fighting for people who can’t 6. The emotional backpack 7. Therapy on the force 8. Training in discomfort 9. Fatherhood on the force 10. Life since retirement 11. From the streets to the schools 12. A message to first responders 13. Final thoughts Quotes

“I think the toughest people in my eyes, the absolute toughest, are the ones who can say ‘hey, I need some help’”. – Curtis Curran

Episode Transcripts

Episode -151- TranscriptsI think often times we look at law enforcement in the community and we’re like, “Oh, they write tickets and they take you to jail.” But I think we’re missing a tremendous foundation of which, you know, you you show up and fight, especially passionate officers like yourself, you show up and fight for people who can’t. You know, we’re those ducks, you know, we’re floating underneath where inside I’m a mess, too. You know, it’s like this is hard, you know. Yeah. The first step to fixing a problem or an issue in your life is admitting that you have one. Yeah. That can that can be the toughest thing. But we we we put the stuff away to go to the next to go to the next.
Hey everybody and welcome to another amazing, exciting, and of course yours truly the most enthusiastic ever, Chris Burns, president and founder. so grateful to be here and today to be joined by a good friend uh both in jiu-jitsu and in life. And uh we have Curtis Curran here today. He’s a 22year uh police veteran in uh New Mexico. He’s worked all across different uh branches and resourced the community in a lot of different ways. But uh since we’ve gone in network here at Peaks Recovery, we’ve started to see a lot of first responders and certainly with our Triricare Tri West contracts online. We’re seeing a lot of military folks, combat veterans, their families, and um it’s been my experience over the last couple of years since we started seeing these individuals that they’re one of the most underserved populations and underresourced. You know, their ability to reach out for help um is blocked often times by a variety of things including mental health issues, trauma, and uh scarcity in the environment. So, I couldn’t be more grateful today to be joined by a good friend and brother Curtis. Thanks for joining us. The honor is mine. Thank you so much for having me. Yes, sir. Absolutely. And we’ve gotten some roles in in jiu-jitsu. And I’ve talked a lot about on this show how community often comes in a variety of different ways. And my community lately, certainly my recovery community is at jiu-jitsu. I like to be a part of something where people aren’t showing up with beers in their hand. And if they are, they’re getting their butts kicked. So grateful to be joined by you today. Um 22 years. Yes, sir. All right. in that 22 years. We talked about it a little bit before the show, but for the viewers, maybe describe a little bit about what you did in that 22 years, some of the jobs you’ve had. Um, and we’ll just kick it off there. Yeah, absolutely. Um, well, I served with the New Mexico State Police. Cool. Um, I went in, yeah, 01. Um, our academy started. I chose that agency um because it was it was a 16week living academy then. It’s changed now. I still live in but still longer. And my understanding and the research I had done even talking to other police officers who were in the field and other agencies said no you need to go there for the training like they will train you and yeah they train me. So I mean again living it was pretty much very much like uh the Marine Corps. It was run that way. everything was military um dress right dress you know all that type of stuff. So that was a not shock but that was you know that was an adjustment and I went in at a later age. I went in at 31. Okay. You know um I spent a lot of time not wandering but doing things and not really sure what I was going to end up but part of me always wanted to be in law enforcement. And I guess I can also lead into a story of how I actually finally did it. The movie Gladiator came out. Russell Crow. Yeah. Get the year with probably 2001. Went to see that movie one night. And I’m a guy. I go to movie, have my popcorn, have my Well, I was told later that eating those little kernels, you know, the ones that get stuck in your teeth, that stuff had blocked the entrance to my appendix. Mhm. So ultimately ended up with an appendix rupture. I’m sure which I was very stubborn and I dealt with for probably 48 hours. Oh wow. Before I finally gave in to go get medical attention and it was probably I was probably on my deathbed without realizing it cuz I had already ruptured and leaked. And so anyways in the hospital I go through all that. I I spent 9 days at the hospital, lose 20 lbs, and in that hospital, I made that decision. I said, I I need to do what I said I was going to do. And that was the law enforcement thing. Mhm. So, pretty much just got out of that. I recovered very quick. Nor people go in right away when they Yeah. I’m I’m not that smart, Chris. I think we’ve we talked about this offline. Uh I’m very stubborn. I’m very tolerant to pain sometimes and that’s good and bad at the same time, right? Like the blessings I have in me are also some of the things that that may not be good. Sure. Um the plus was um I’m like you. I I I I was fitness orientated. You know, I was always beating myself up in the gym or doing something. So that aided my my recovery. I got out of the hospital after that nine days. A week later I was cleared 100%. And they were like, “It’s very odd that people get cleared 100%, but you’re cleared.” And they think it’s just because of the way I I my body was before. Yeah. So, you know, having these things in my corner, I pushed it. But I made that decision. I am doing this period. So, that’s how I got there. Um, the academy was um, man. Wow. You know, the the onslaught that came at you. It was four months. It was four months. you live there, you know, you all go in with your family and they greet you and they’re like, “Hey guys, you know, blah blah blah.” And then they kick your family out and then the reality is all that nice guy stuff goes away. Kaboom. You’re like, “Ah.” I mean, I remember to the point where you’re you’re running with your stuff and then you’re trying to put a key in a in a and they’re yelling at you and you’re like, “Ah.”
So you you know it was a lot a lot going on but I knew in my heart that I wanted to be there and in my mind I just always said I don’t have to like it I just have to do it whatever comes whatever comes you know tie your shoe you didn’t tie your shoe right okay yes sir you know you just take it and go you start building that mentality they start building you when to start kind of wiping away some potential deficiencies I’m not going to say that that’s really it but trying to wipe away certain part of you and bring back a different party, right? So, get through that. And I remember I mean I had uh you know a great aunt of mine who was pretty much like a grandmother. She passed away while I was in that academy you know and I stayed you know I didn’t go to the funeral. So that’s something, you know, again, I put in my backpack of things that don’t know if that was the right decision or not, but my focus was I was so driven to get through this and be what I said I was going to be, you know. Mhm. And I also had another setback in the academy. Um, I I blew my knee out, you know, total ACL tear. And I remember sitting down with the the academy staff and this was week six. So I already gone through the probably the hardest part where they’re not saying eliminating but we’re trying to to see who’s going to be the final recruits to graduate. So I made it through that part and I remember them coming to me and them all standing around me and just these guys in uniform that I aspire to be like um it’s it’s kind of a chain of things. There’s so much here, right? Like I have officer Andrew Tingwall who’s I’ll potentially mention later said and officer Joshua Chavez. These guys are just monsters to me. You know, they’re the drill instructors. Um and they’re like, “What do you want to do?” I’m like, “Uh, I have a choice.” I said, “I’ll do whatever I have to do, but I’m not leaving.” And this is me, little me, telling them I’m not leaving, which they could be like, “Yeah, yeah, you are, actually.” You know what I mean? Like today like, “Yeah, you are cuz we can’t take that liability of the medical issue.” Mhm. And so they like look at each other, they go, “Okay.” And they walk out and I’m like, “What just happened?” You know? So that week was the beginning of our defensive tactics, which you know, kind of how you and I met the fighting stuff, the ground control stuff. And I’m like, “Crap,” you know? So, I remember sitting out that first week at the brace and I’m on my little crutches and I’m I’m watching the class and I’m like, “This is cool, but I’m not learning it, but I’m I’m watching, you know, and that’s what they they’re good with me there, you know, but they’re kind of not like have me off to the side and they’re ignoring me because I’m not part of everything, right?” I remember the next morning they call us out and I come running out without the crutches and I remember Josh Chavez, Joshua Chav, a training officer. He just looks at me, you know what I mean? Yeah. And this man, I’m hopefully he sees this. Um gosh, I I like to say I’m a tough dude, but there are there are dudes that tough dudes are scared of. Yeah. He’s that guy. Yeah. Bull rider. Just tough fighter. just man just tough. But to have him just kind of, you know, if it was somebody else, you probably like, “What are you doing? Get your, you know, you’re broken. Go back.” Blah blah blah blah, right? And I went through I went through the rest the rest of the entire academy like that just on one leg. So, it was an accomplishment for me. It meant something. Graduating meant something. Um, getting out into the field. I was, you know, I lived in Albuquerque, but you rarely get to go where you live when you come out, especially if it’s Albuquerque. Albuquerque is kind of a dream destination as a as a state police officer. So, I ended up going out to Grants and Gall, which are west of the state off of I40, close to Arizona. Blessing, great place to work. Guys were tight. You got to know everybody. Um, uh, my supervisors were great. Um I was out there went through training with the you know two training two different training officers got to learn the job see the job put myself into the job how I would do like you pick from this training officer what you like and then then you build yourself into that and I feel as you know going in as later age I was already a a decent person um and I chose the profession because I it was just it was in me it was a calling and I feel like it’s that profession where you you you volunteer to fight for people who can’t fight for themselves, you know, um it’s it’s me, you know, so it just all really made sense, you know. It all made sense. But then there was a time when okay, well, I still had the knee issue, you know, so I get through get through my coach officer per I get on my own. That basically means like now I have my own car, call on the radio from my driveway, go out, you know, it’s just it’s all me. It’s it’s we are very proactive in that area. You know, we do our own thing and we get our calls for service, crashes, whatever. So, of course, that’s a whole another stuff of things I’ve seen done. Then it was a time when it was time to to go ahead and address the knee and get it fully taken care of. So, um I did that department gave me nine months to to to be gone necessarily and get the knee address fixed, surgery and all that. I came back in three. So again, shows you like, yeah, this is where I want to be. And that I thank that to a therapist, his name was Jose, who um I walked into his his his office and he he he I’m assuming he did a research before I got there, but he said, “All right, walk over there and walk back.” So I walk over there and I walk back. He goes, “Okay, you have a screw here. You have this here.” I’m like, “Oh, dang.” You know, like he by the way I walked, he was terming this. He says, “What do you do for living?” I said, “Um, I’m a state police officer.” He goes, “When do you want to get back to work?” I said, “Yesterday.” So, he goes, “Then he looks at the paperwork I had in my hand, which is with a prescription of come in twice a week for 30 minutes.” He goes, “Well, he tore that up, threw it to the side and said, “You’ll be here every day.” I said, “You’ll be here every day, probably four hours a day.” And I was like, “I’m good. I’m good with that.” Mhm. He kicked the crap out of me. And he said, “We’re not just going to work a knee. It’s your whole body. We’re going to work your whole body. Your whole body. Your whole body.” And then there were days I get in there like on a Friday, he could just look at me. He said, “I was I was just spent.” They would kick the crap out of me. It was like literally like every day, every pow pow bow bow. So he got me back, got me strong, got me going. And I went on and I and my career just went good, you know. And but the way I handled myself in that career was my goal was to be professional in the job and do the job right and and carry ethics and morale, you know, all those proper things. You know, if I’m op and I’m driving my vehicle, use maternity signal, stop a stop sign, do that thing because I didn’t feel that I could do that to people if they didn’t do if I didn’t act that way. Was I an angel? No. No. I wasn’t perfect. I was still young. But I really did try to operate that way, you know. on a traffic stops, I tried to get a thank you from the person that I just encountered, even though I was writing them potential citation for um whatever the violation might have been. Um so that that was good, you know, that was great. Um of course, I all my friends and family for the most part were in Albuquerque and I’m still in Grants in the Gallup area, which again was a great area to work. Finally, I did get moved into the Albuquerque area. Um once I got Albuquerque, it was a different system. get used to it. People weren’t as tight. So, you were kind of on your own as an officer. I had some definitely had some friends, but you weren’t as tight as you were in those outlining areas in the state police. Probably smaller teams and those other It’s a You had a small team, but it was only you guys in Albuquerque. Coming to Albuquerque as a state police officer, you’re not really running 911 calls because the Albuquerque Police Department’s handling those or the Bernal Leo County Sheriff Department is handling those. Okay. Your calls are more like, “Hey, there’s a crash on the interstate. There’s a crash over there.” You know, you’re not going to the domestics violence situations. you’re not going to those type of things that you did prior in in the other areas where you were the number one the number one in a municipal like here would be the city you know so we didn’t see those type of calls so you had to make yourself useful and and produce your own work right so doing that for a little bit and a buddy of mine his name is Curtis also my best friends he uh he fought to to develop a a DWI unit to to stop impair drivers. Well, lo and behold, that that succeeded. I ended up on that unit with him. Um, and we did that for nine years. Oh, wow. To the point where we instructed, we obviously we testified in court. We got better. We got better. We got our butts kicked initially, but we we built I’m not say alliances, but you know, attorneys would come in and just wipe the floors with us cuz they were sharp at that. Well, we turn around and go pick their brains and sit with them and learn. And then we develop these relationships where we got very strong on what we did. And and I know we did it the right way. I know Curtis’s character. Um he knows mine. It we did it the right way. Like it it it mattered how we did it and why we did it, if that makes any sense. It wasn’t just for numbers. I I realized I was taking people’s freedoms, but to me it was like I am preventing you from crashing into her potentially later. You don’t know that, but that’s why I’m here. And a lot of it came because we had to do every now and then, especially before we got on that unit next of kins. Like I I that’s the worst thing ever. I wasn’t trained to to go into They probably didn’t tell you that in training that you’re going to be doing this. Really? They don’t spend time, you know, like here I am walking to your house. I’m in uniform and uniform kind of menacing potentially. I’m I’m 6 feet tall, too. And I’m about to tell you the worst information that I could deliver. And it it was hard, right? It watching the reaction and then and this was before I even had a family. It would be really hard now. So part of the desire to be on that DWI unit was to be ahead of that. Does that make sense? Yeah. Ahead of that crash, ahead of that potential fatality. And I could tell you that while we were on that unit, we didn’t have to do those. Was it a goal of yours to get with the family before like the coroner? That’s like the decent thing to do, right? It Well, yes. It was kind of our responsibility to and you could, you know, pick up the phone and call, hey, by the way, you know, it was show up and pay that respect, you know. Yeah. And I could tell you kind of a one that really got me. I had one my sergeant calls me and say, “We need to do a next to kin in this is a remote area.” So, I had to get out there, right? He said, “But we’re not 100% sure if this is his residence or not.” Oh, wow. So I had to go to the residence and then Hey, do you know Joe? Yeah. And Joe have two elbows, you know what I mean? Like we had to go Yeah. drive this and do that. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Well, by the way, he is passed. You know what I mean? It wasn’t it was like what like had to like first like what do you do now to and just deliver that and I remember that one. I was like God walking down that and I did that one. I was by myself on that one and I was like, man, I don’t want to do that again. Like that was hard to to do the ID and then deliver the news and then watch the the fallout and be there for the fallout, you know, and then how do you excuse yourself out of that? How do you what do you do? You know, do you you the reactions are so there’s so many reactions, you know, you could have four people, one runs into the kitchen, one falls on the ground, one looking at you like, I understand, sir. You know what I in and then one’s like you’re like do I what do I do? Who am I now? You know what’s what’s my purpose here? I’m grateful you shared that cuz it’s I think often times we look at law enforcement in the community and we’re like oh they write tickets and they take you to jail. But I think we’re missing a tremendous foundation of which you know you you show up and fight especially passionate officers like yourself. You show up and fight for people who can’t and that involves a plethora of things and potentially delivering that news what could be someone’s worst day of their life. That’s heavy. It’s hard, you know. And I remember doing one with Curtis, and Curtis is close to my size, one of the toughest guys, I know, best friends. And both of us just delivering news together. And we were both was like just inside, you know, we’re those ducks, you know, we’re floating underneath where inside I’m a mess, too. You know, it’s like this is hard, you know. Um it was tough. It was really tough. and and that was again it helped uh when we did that work later because it was very preventative of that you know but I do have a good I don’t like I call it a good story but we we had um there was a passing of a a Texas DPS officer and I was working a a graveyard shift a night shift and I got assigned and I’m very honored for this and um I got assigned to the the officer had a sister that was in the Albuquerque area that needed to get out to Texas. So my job was throw her in my car and so I did and put her in my car and we all asked I mean it was middle of night. It was night time just on I4 just and was to deliver her to another officer to get her to be by her brother. That makes sense. And minimal conversation, you know, but the honor to get her out there, it was huge. It was one of the big most things they don’t talk about, but it I thought that was an amazing thing. I’m not going to say I loved every minute of it, but it meant something. Yeah. To get her closer to him as fast as possible. And it was literally like it was dark out. Boom. 110, 120, 130, 140, we were gone. Yeah. I mean, we were moving and she was there right there with me. And my job’s I’m getting you there. I’m getting you there. Period. Getting you there. Wow. Yeah. That’s huge. You know, you you spoke about something on the front end. You talked about your backpack, putting stuff in the backpack. And I had to assume that you’re in the 16 weeks of this intense training, who you said is one of the better academy trainings around. I have to imagine that they didn’t tell you about the backpack and all the things you were going to have to put in there. Yeah. No. So, one of my questions is why do first responders have to put that stuff in a backpack because of the next thing because there’s always something you got to show back up for, right? The next thing. So, you don’t have time to process. And in fact, processing would delay you being able to show up presently for your friend that you had to drive to Texas. Wow. that and then you know there’s there’s stigma. Yeah. We’ve talked about this in you know other conversations. Um
you you build yourself into this thing like we talked about said I want to fight for people who can’t fight for themselves. So what are you fighting? You’re fighting potential monsters. Well what do you have to become to fight a monster? Kind of have to be a monster. And I’m one of those firm believers as the more you climb or the more you build into something, you have to leave something else out. Yeah. You know what I mean? And what that is, it could be anything. You know, some people go, “Oh, it’s a shoe collection. I just can’t be to too attached to my shoe collection anymore. I got to be this.” For me,
I guess you got to get selfish and you got to get uh just sensitivity stuff has to you know can’t I don’t have time for that you know so you know law enforcement first responders fire we we tend to have that gallows humor where we’re at a horrible scene like I think there was a scene over here and we’re kind of laugh about things not laughing at the scene not to be disrespectful towards the victims but it’s how we cope with being there the smells the I mean there’s smells now that would trigger me to like you know what I mean there maybe even songs that might trigger me like oh I remember you know so we we we put this stuff away to go to the next to go to the next and some of the things we put away are an argument with my wife or something that happened at home can’t deal with that right now because I can’t carry that out there you know I’m one of those firm believers where I can get shot in the elbow and live or I can get shot in the elbow and die if I give Does that make sense? So, absolutely. We put this armor on. We put this armor on. We put this stuff away. Put some armor. Well, when you retire, got this armor on. I’ve got this backpack. Like, you know, I still want some of the armor, but I don’t need all this armor. I don’t want to walk around looking at everybody like, can I kick that guy’s butt? Can I, you know what I mean? Like, uh, I don’t want I don’t want that anymore. Yeah. I know my skill set. I still teach shooting. I’m in jits with you. We’re doing things. I still have that, but I don’t want to be that, you know? And that’s the hard part to let go of. And I still have this backpack. I have this back like right now in my backpack in my head, I’m going over the things that could have been and those any one of those things does not have me in this chair right now. Does that make sense? Like close call. The things that could have been, I easily not be here. Easily. And I’m not gonna say any of it’s necessarily a skill thing. It’s just the way things went and potential luck, you know, and there were some skills like, “Oh, I need to do this, that, technically be sound and that that saves me versus being blind.” Um, but there’s a lot of close calls that when you get out and you start looking back, you start looking back, you start to whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, so I’m kind of I’m in that world dealing with some of that. Mhm. I’m dealing with some of the things I’ve seen, not so much some of the things I’ve done because I I really believe that I was righteous and I and I and I did things a good way. I didn’t want to be that type of police officer you had a bad experience with cuz I’ve had bad experiences with police officers. I didn’t want to be that. Uh I’m not going to say that’s how everything worked out, but my goal was not to treat people bad until I had to or whatever. So just a ton of stuff, you know, ton of that. Ton of that. 25 years ago, you know, it’s different. It’s a little bit different now. A lot of people talk about mental health. They talk about therapy and they talk about external resources. Did you know anybody 25 years ago when you started that was, “Hey, man. I I I’m actually getting therapy with this guy. It’s working out really well.” Did you hear any of that going on? I I can’t I know that we had post teams and teams like that. We had officers that would pass away. We had we had opportunities But I was young. Mhm. You know, I’m putting the armor on still. I’m running at stuff when I really should be walking because I’m going to get there either way. You know what I mean? So, you’re not hearing what you need to hear early because you’re you’re blocking it. Honestly, you’re moving on and and you’re you’re you’re running and gunning. You’re you’re the first. You’re you’re you’re chasing stuff that you can walk after. You’re So, it existed. I’m not I don’t want to you know burn the department cuz whatever happens they they were aware of it but the stigma was very old-fashioned then you know me a little more now and that’s why like you know I want to put the message out as as 200lb man fighting man this and that hey we all we’re all none of us are 100% like we do our job a professional But we carry some of that with us. So it was there but I not say blind to it. I chose to not look at it as much. I didn’t really look into the mental health until um the pregnancy of my daughter. I have a daughter. She’s 21 years old. Um she during pregnancy she was diagnosed with some major tumors and potentially may not you know ability of even being born. Wow. And uh her mom which we’re great friends. Ah man we’re all great. I’m so blessed for the family that we all have. We’re not together now but we’re great friends. Um, you know, I was there through the appointments, through the things, and her mom would just fall apart. You know, I get it. But I never had the time and we weren’t together. Mhm. So, she’d fall apart and I’d be there and then she’d go be with her and I’d kind of go wander off and be on my own. And then I was at that point where, man, I tell my family, but this is such a bad situation. I don’t want them to hurt either. So I delayed on that. So basically I carried it all myself but I didn’t have the shoulder to cry on that she did. So that was effective to me you know that that that that caught up to me. Um and so I sought therapy. I started seeking therapy then just because we weren’t together. She wasn’t happy about that and going through what she was going through. So there was a lot of things being said to me and about me and how worthless I potentially would be and all this and sure carried weight carried weight carried weight and then I remember talking to my sergeant he’s like well why don’t you take the time off and just I said I can’t I said sitting here hurts being out there I’m useful I need to be useful so I would backpack it y head on out and go do that and go do that and I never really had that that moment that time to fall apart. Mhm. Cuz the next thing came up, right? And in some places, in some ways, yeah, it made me tough. It made me how did it, you know? I I don’t know. It got me through the career. Thank God we we we went on. My daughter was born. We got through surgeries, multiple surgeries. She’s everything worked out. I mean, it’s it’s a it’s a a different lifestyle for her, but she’s she’s, you know, she’s excelling. Um, the families all were great as families. Two different families, but we all help each other. My family, her her uh their family, I mean, I can’t ask for better. I mean, we got past the things that were said and done cuz a lot of things were said that affected me. Um, I was a type of guy that, you know, you hit me with some sticks, ah, it hurts. But words from somebody that that meant something really really hurt me, you know. Um, so there was that that was in there, you know, and that was early in my career, you know. What did you get through when you were able to go into therapy? I know it was 21 years ago, but what did you draw from that experience that you didn’t have or were you able to peel the armor off back then at all? I had to be I had to be rescued in in some ways. I had to be reminded that I wasn’t going to be worthless, that I wasn’t going to be a bad fault, that I wasn’t cuz I was like, I was lost, you know? Uh there was a lot of things said and and we’re all past it now, but there was a lot of things said that really made me question who I was and who I was going to be and how I was going to get there. You know, but law enforcement, the job helped me. It gave me some purpose. You know, I was able to go out there and be impactful on other people’s lives, hopefully in a good way. But my own life was in in shambles. So, relate to that, man. It helped me. It was like, it was like a massage for the brain. It helped me. It helped remind me that I’m okay. And then, you know, and I and that therapist, man, I wish she was here in Colorado meant so much to me. And she’s been there. I mean, I I had her for 20 years after I stayed. Oh, good. Just continuous, you know, and we had several talks about several things. We got past that, but she always was just there for me. And she would always remind me that that you you do a job that’s just it’s just thankless, you know, and and unfortunately society the way they are that they don’t they don’t realize the burden that it takes us. that, you know, they’ll they’ll defund the police, they’ll make these comments to do this, to do that, and you know, I understand all that, but they’re not in those shoes. Yeah. You know, they’re not in the shoes. If they were in the shoes, then be different, but society’s not society’s changed. We’ve seen it in entitlement and this and that. You someone’s going to go fight for you. Well, you you got to support them. You may not like the way they’re doing it, but you’ve got to give them some support to do that fight for you. Because if they don’t fight for you, you have to fight. Y, but you’d rather fight them that are fighting for you. Politics of law enforcement changed and I’ve seen this and that. Um, but you need something like that. You need somebody out there because if you don’t, you’ll allow, you know, something in that you don’t want in. You want to protect. It’s so true. True. I mean, even in the pandemic, and we support the police here in Colorado Springs probably better than anywhere in the state. And I remember getting robbed in the pandemic. Some broke into my garage, took this, that, and the other thing. And it was 3 hours before law enforcement got there. And now it’s a lot better. But I think that people folks that are kind of, you know, non-supportive of that. They don’t understand. They’re not relational and friends with people like yourself who show up for people who can’t fight. And I have to imagine that a lot of the law enforcement that you worked with in your units were just like you. Yeah. you know, you’d hope so. I mean, it’s it’s a calling, right? It’s it’s kind of what you are. You’re passionate about what what what you deliver, you know, and I think you have to be passionate about this. Um, so, but society asked for this watered down system a little bit because they didn’t like that, you know, there’s bad officers. Sure, there’s, you know, there’s always going to be that, right? We go back to Rodney King, right? That that situation was horrible. But if I was there that night, Rodney King, the size of that man on PCP on a one a one-on-one. No way. No way. Yeah. But you also got to look at the pack that you get into this dynamic event dynam.
Mhm. Right. Like, oh, it’s over now. He’s subdued. It’s hard to just turn off unless you unless you’ve trained for that. Yeah. You know, it’s part of the reason why I do this. So, it’s probably reason why my strength condition and present high level. Yes. I I mean, I’ve been there, right? You know how to protect yourself. Yeah. You you have to protect yourself and you have to stop right now. And not every police officer knows how to do that. Yeah. No, I stopped some, believe it or not. Really? I’ve I’ve come across people, I I got them. And they’re coming because they just had 30 minute car chase with that person and they were in the red. I got him. I got him. I got him. Cool off. Yeah. Cool off. I got him. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like I’ve been there, right? But again, that’s stuff, all stuff that goes in the back. Like that turning off, right? I’m in the most dynamic. I’m in a fight for my life. Like I I got into it with a murderer one night. Turn off afterwards like like nothing. It’s never like nothing. Everything is something. Yeah. You know, break rake into a car getting ready potentially shoot a person. Didn’t have to. It’s not nothing. Yeah. you know, it it Oh, backpack backpack. I noticed, too, that we have a couple uh law enforcement guys at the gym. Um I think Andy and Tom and um they say that they’re able to go into these situations because they really know how to protect themselves and the last thing they do is grab their gun and they know as long as there’s no weapons or things like that or high-risisk stuff going on, they know they can be cool, calm, and collected. And I I feel like a lot of law enforcement, it would it would do them a lot of service for everybody to just roll jiu-jitsu. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I I think like for me um there’s a book called Warriors Mindset. Um second chapter is strength conditioning. I feel like the more uncomfortable I mean I know how you work out workouts can be uncomfortable. You’re pushing yourself but the more you do that the more you can handle the uncomfortable. Does that make sense? That makes a lot of sense. So we pushed ourselves to a point where like it hurts here but you get through it. And same with jiu-jitsu. It hurts, but you got to do it. And you learn a little bit every day. Learn a little bit every day. Train, train, train. You’re not exercising. You’re training to be better. You’re not exercising. That’s just wiggling around. You’re training. So, it’s like you’re you’re getting somewhere little by little that helps you later in a certain situation. Uh I know Tom. Well, like those situations that I’ve been in when I dealt with that the murder and I found out he was a murderer two days afterwards. Oh, shoot. So, I didn’t know it at the time. So, that’s part of the kicker, right? like, “Oh, yeah, we’re going to fight. I’ll keep,” you know, I won. You know, lucky. Um, but then later on, hey, come to the Albuquerque Police Department Homicide Division. Hey, what’s going on? Hey, yeah, that guy. Yeah, he was he murdered somebody two hours before and here’s the murder, the video of it. Like, whoa, dang. Now I know why he fought me, you know what I mean? Or why what his endgame was. I didn’t know that at the time. I had to deal with what I had to deal with. Read it and do it type of thing. You know what I mean? Back in the backpack, right? It gets in there. But I got through that situation because of how I trained and who I was. You know what I mean? Um, we talked about like hand on the gun. You don’t have to be. No, if you’re aware, pay attention. You, you know, you can get that thing out and fire two rounds in a second if you had to. All right. Or you know what you can do to clear your space to get that and do that. I teach that now and I do that now. But you can’t walk around like, “Hey, how are you?” you know, you know, because that sends a different message that sends that that sends a message you’re relying on this to save you. I rely on this to save me, right? And and I my goal was pay attention to your surroundings. Pay attention to that. Like that particular encounter with that gentleman, Curtis was dealing with him first and Curtis was going to put him on the ground. Guy did some time in jail. In jail, they practice how to beat us. A lot of stuff like that. He steps out of it, then I get a hold of him. I calm him down and then we get into it and then I dealt him. I put him little put him to sleep. Yeah. Um but it was slow motion for me. It was easy. Yeah. Now had that been Jon Jones a lot different would have been my day. Yeah. But I was highly trained. I was better than that guy at that moment and ready for that moment and not when I finished there was no continuation. There’s no no more to it was just done. Got him. Do you feel that piling up like the all these situations, events, scenarios, next to kin, babies dying, you know, that’s just another Wednesday. Do can you feel in your nervous system this grief adding up or was it not until you got out of law enforcement and retired that you were like poof, it was really top of mind? Yeah, I think it was more at the end. Okay. Um, right about 2 years before I retired. two years before I retire. Somewhere in there. 20 years in. Yeah. Like I’m I’m getting there, you know? I can see the end. I’m at the aircraft section. Great. We’re rescuing. We’re doing cool stuff. Stuff that like is dream job. Like like it’s a whole another level cuz you were special operations, right? Yeah. It was cool. We could talk about it. But one night I’m sleeping and bing, I woke up and I just I was overcome um grief. I grabbed my iPad. I went to the notes page. I started typing. Pretty much typed a two-page letter to my close family, my wife, you know, just my family. And basically I was like, I’m so sorry. I’ve not been here. You know, my co my sister Kelly was a pitcher in Albuquerque. Went on. She was number one pitcher in the States High School. Wow. Went to the Goodwill Games in Italy. Went on pitch in college at UTEP. I never saw her play. Oh wow. I saw her when she was young, but I never saw you. Because you were in it. And I was so busy with my career of duty bound doing doing me, you know. So basically, I just wrote just it just just came out, man. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah just, you know, the synopsis of I’m so sorry that I haven’t I mean, I’ve been here physically. I’ve been around. I’ve done things, but you’re always, you know, one foot out the door to to rescue and everything. Super hyper vigilant, too. Everywhere. It’s like Yes. Not. So, I was there and wasn’t there at the same time. And so, that was that was when I knew it’s time. It’s interesting you say that because when I’ve had the chance to sit with first responders and veterans, combat veterans specifically, they tell that same story. Yeah. That they were fully in on this thing and they come in and they retire and they get to this point or they, you know, finish up their service and they come in and they’re like, I just I need to apologize to my family because they see it so clearly. And I have to imagine the birth of your second kid. What a big impact. Canon was wow. Well, number one, I was 47 years old. Mhm. And I’m like, she’s like, I’m pregnant. I’m like I’m like I’m old. Yeah. Wait, why? It’s like I know. No, no, no. I’m old. You know, so I’m gonna try to get emotional. But yeah, in my mind I was like, “Oh my I I don’t want to be a burden to this young man.” Like he’s going to have to wheel me around. He’s like, “Babe, what?” You know, it’s like biggest blessing in the world. Yeah. You know, but that’s when the career got scary for me. It’s almost like finishing up a tour. Yeah. And I and then well, you know, not to to to downplay my daughter, but I was different. You were young. Yeah. I was young and dumb. I mean, 100%. But I was good at what I did. Don’t get me wrong. I wasn’t bad. I wasn’t I was good. I was acquiring skills. I was I mean, that agency, we had people around us. I mean, just amazing shooters. I mean like and I got the pick brains of people Greg Jackson people like they were around us you know we honed a lot of just a lot of lot of that you know so you always saw the tough side of everything and and you pick the brains of those people and you you you know get things and you build yourself into something but you know we didn’t sit down and say how did how’s your mental health today I mean right I wish we did you know that did come a couple times you know and you know we can get But you’re building this. So with my daughter, you know, yeah, we have a great relationship, but the relationship I have with Canon and the time of, you know, again, 47 as opposed to 33, 3, right? That’s a big difference. A lot of stuff done in between there, you know, I learned ground I mean, I was a ground control instructor, uh, you know, um, tas tons of stuff, you know, skills just thrown on me. Um I was a tactical fight officer, tactical fight officer instructor. So I taught how we operate in the helicopter and all the stuff that we did comms and everything. So a lot of skill set but yeah was born. Was it when he was born or when you found out she was pregnant? Uh little both. I mean when I found out I was like oh you know like well I wanted to retire and travel the world. Now it’s going to be different right now. I got to raise this young man. But I was honestly scared like, well, I’m I’m old, babe. I don’t like, you know, when he’s 10, I’m going to be 57. I’m I don’t I don’t want him wheeling me around. I don’t want him Mhm. But, you know, that also say, well, I got to train then. I got to stay in shape. I got to stay doing stuff because I don’t want him to say, “Hey, dad, let’s go play at a park.” And me say, “I can’t. I can’t I can’t do that anymore.” No, I’m going to go do that. You know, to your point too, it’s different when obviously when you mature a little bit and you get to see it, but also like father’s having sons. I know for my two boys, I mean, they look at me like I’m their absolute hero, you know, and I’m sure from the moment he could, he’s been looking at you like, “You just show me the way, Dad.” You know, if he looks at me the way I look at my dad and my dad and my stepdad, I I’ll take it. Yeah. I’ll take it. You know, um, it’s high regard. Yeah. High regard. people of that part of my life that that man they shouldered stuff that I can’t imagine now I’m like ah oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh you know start to see it but but I’m I’m scary you know it’s just this is the scariest thing ever to me being a dad. Yeah and being now a more mature dad it’s even more scary. Yeah. You know, and then I told attorney one day, you know, he was giving me a hard time about something in the courthouse and I said, you know, if you’d seen the things I see and done the things I do, when you watch TV tonight at home on your couch, you put a seatelt on. I mean, like like you would just buckle like, you know what I mean? Like I just seen so much and done so much. I said it’s out there. It’s right outside right now. There’s horror out there, you know, that we want to protect our kids from. And then when you learn about it or you’re a part of it or you’re working to defeat that and you see it at that level, it’s tough. You almost know too much for sanity in that moment. Yes. What shifted for you? You talked about being in some fear when Canon was born and in your last couple years of law enforcement. Um what was scary about that is you wanted to come home more than ever. Yeah. Yeah. Want to come home more than ever. Um want to raise him. Mhm. you know, want to be present. Um, it’s good. This is where it gets emotional. It’s just just want to be a good dad this time. I I wasn’t a bad dad with my daughter. It’s just that I was in a different spot in my life. And now a chance to be better at that. But there’s a message that needs to be passed on from a father to a son that I want to do. And you know, you and I both realizing this now, and I want to make sure I was around to do it. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like I need to be here to deliver this to get him to hand him off. Yeah. To the world. Yep. You know, and that’s big. It’s a big responsibility. Big responsibility for me. So it made me scary because what we were doing, there’s some funny stories to it. We obviously were doing car chases, things like that, but we just got into the world of hoist rescuing, right? Where you’re on the helicopter and you’re hoisted up. And so we’re getting ready to do some kind of a funny story, you know, again, we’re tough guys. I’m, you know, tough guy here, you know, and uh the crew comes in to teach us hoisting and, you know, we’re doing a briefing on them Monday. So, we’re going to spend a week with these guys and they’re like, “All right, we’re going to do this, you know, crawl, walk, run, move slow, and then, you know, by Thursday, we’ll be picking up live loads.” Like some of you guys will be hooked up to the helicopter and we’re going and we start working all that stuff. So we train to operate the hoist where you’re standing on the edge of a helicopter looking down picking somebody up or you’re riding up the hoist, right? So it was training of two ways. And I remember we come in Tuesday, everybody’s feeling good, you know, and they look at me, they say, “You know what? We’re ready for live loads and you’re up.” All right. And I’m like, “I never hung out of a helicopter like that.” The tough guy, right? Just right out. Um, so there was that, you know, and wow, you know, you’re you’re feeling the the hurricane winds of the rotor wash, you’re grabbing this thing, you’re grabbing, you’re hooking up, and then you’re you’re gone. Yeah. You know, and you’re you’re in somebody else’s hands. That’s wild. And you have to be okay with it. Yeah. It’s almost like trusting your climbing partner to like beling the gear. We check our gear. triple check our gear. I go to you to check my gear, go to producer, check, you know, like we were all checking our gear so much cuz the company that we used their former law enforcement and they named themselves after one of their fallen brothers who was seasoned at that who fell to his death. They probably tell you about doesn’t matter how you know what I mean like complacent. I’m not going to say he was complacent but complacency can get you right. So it mattered right? So now I’m doing something scary, scarier. Like I’m when when I got recruited for the job, they sat me down and say, “Hey, we want to take it in a different direction. We’ll make more tactical, more law enforcement.” I said, “You want to, you know, high regard officers. Uh you’re you’re you’re friendly with the tactical team. You’re friendly with we need someone like you because we can embed you into a tactical environment down here or put you in a helicopter here. You’ve seen them both.” I’m like, “Oo, I love that. I love that.” Yeah. So, I went to my family and I said, “Hey, this is what I want to do.” I made sure I had the blessing from my family, you know, because gravity’s undefeated, you know. Sure is. Gravity’s undefeated. You know, you we’re still learning it now in jets and and everywhere. Um, you know, takeoffs are optional, but landings are pretty damn mandatory. You’re gonna land, right? So, there was a scariness to it, but it’s also a challenge. Like, I’m gonna learn an aviation language that I don’t know. Anyway, so just built putting all that together, you know, was another accomplishment and something different. Um, and I’m not good with heights. Like I walk to the edge of something, I get that feeling. You know what I mean? Like, but on the edge of a helicopter, you can sit me there all day. Feel good. You’re coming out the edge, there’s no hole in the middle. No, there’s no hole in edge. And you are just a, you know, we run like a meter away. Mhm. But they’re strong. Don’t get me wrong. You fall out, you’re going to look silly. But I could do that. Yeah. You know, I was like, I can accomplish that, but I can’t stand over an edge like not comfortably. I could do it, but I’m like, you know, um but you know, you got to remember or you inside, you know, that if I go out, that’s it. You know, and I I talked to another friend of mine who was with the Up Creek Police Department. He had retired. He goes, “You can retire, right?” I said, “Yeah, I’m getting there.” He goes, need to you have a son. I was like, God, you’re right. You know what I mean? I was like, yeah, you know, and that starts to happen. But I had a different reason to live. I I’d done my duty. I I had done I did the law enforcement thing where I was out there for other people and doing doing the best I could, but it was time to be there for me. And then, of course, having cannon um and my wife and I got married right before we had can, you know what I mean? So now I have I’m we’re she’s not my girlfriend, you know, she’s my wife now. Now everything really matters and have a a you know, more reason to walk in that door every night, you know, and it weighs on you and it’s, you know, you talk to military guys and things like that. It’s it’s it’s a great thing, but it also hinders you know, someone will say, “Yeah, I can’t be thinking about home right now because I’ve got this mission to take care of this a lot.” You know what’s been that’s what I was going to ask you. It’s like what was harder? What you walk through in law enforcement or what you’re walking through afterwards trying to be the best father that you can be afterwards? Yeah. Right. And most people be like, man, that high-risisk stuff with helicopters and all this stuff and you’re like, man, no. This life thing. Yeah. Yeah. This marriage thing. Yeah. Relationships. It’s almost like you survive all this. I mean, you’re surviving literal bullets, whatever. Mhm. And the way you communicate with your wife at home hurts way more. Way more. Cuz you can’t communicate the way you were in law enforcement, which is very direct, often times rigid. She’ll tell me, “I’m not your law enforcement. You don’t debrief me.” My wife’s done it too, man. I’m not one of your clients. You’re not therapist. You know, so it’s hard, you know. It’s it’s you survive all this to feel the pain here. Mhm. you know, so something that it’s in, you know, work in progress, you know, hopefully in my wife and I. What is, uh, some of the stuff you’ve done to recover from what you walked through in 22 years since you’ve been out? Have you sought any resources or Yeah, I mean um, I have I’ve done some therapeutic sessions. Um, jiu-jitsu is a big one. Obviously, we got Cannon in um, and that’s thanks to a friend of ours, Tyler, is a sent cannon there. So Ken’s there and then I say I I got to get back, you know, tell I I said I need to do something. So that helps me. Um but the biggest thing is I I retired May 1st 22. Okay. And if you remember, we had an event in Texas, UVA day that happened May 24th. Oh yeah. Well, I was an active shooter instructor for our department too. And so I knew what national nationwide what we teach is similar because we need to be on the same page is what we were looking at. We never taught 77 minutes before you go in there and do what you need to do, you know, which is what that took. So, I’m watching that unfold. And that I’m disappointed. I’m hurt. I look at my wife, she looks at me and she goes, “Oh, no, no, no.” I said, “No.” I said, “I’m not I don’t want to be a cop again. I don’t want to do that. I did that already.” I said, “But I need to be more effective. I I have skills. I have stuff that I can still provide. And needless to say, I mean, I retired. I literally retired. And people ask me, why did you retire? I retired to be a husband. I retired to be a dad. I retired to be a brother, son, uncle, all those things. I was those things before, but I also had this duty for I wasn’t those things. And I retired at a time when we were getting raises were coming, things were coming, and I still Nope. Because good great first responders like yourself have to be a first responder first. It’s almost a prerequisite to going out there and staying safe, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, as you climb a ladder of greatness, whoever you may be, you potentially could leave things at the bottom of that ladder. And I didn’t want to do that. Yeah. I didn’t want to do that anymore. And like I I I could have easily I mean it was cush I come 6 minutes away have a sick vehicle uh $12 million helicopter that I get we fly we see things we help man it was so awesome but it was time it was time to be a better husband and things like that. So right like kind of kind of going back to what you said when where’s the pain? Well the pain’s after because it’s almost like too little too late. like, “Here, here I am, everybody.” And they’re like, “We’ve been here without you.” You got a 60 pound mountaineering backpack on that. I’m like, “Yeah, weighing you down.” And then now they just do more in it. Like, what do you mean? I I’m here. Hello. I’m back. Right. Like, and Yeah. Like, wow. You know, and of course that wasn’t literally, but it’s how you feel. Yeah. You know, it’s how you feel. It’s how you felt. Um, but there was also some immense joy, too, right? like and I I think I’ve mentioned to you this to you before is getting Canon and Jits. He’s four years old. I’m sitting on the sideline sitting with you or Kathy, you know, the friends that we have, mutual friends that man, this this place has been Prime has been great. Yeah, I know you’ve plugged Prime. I’m plugging Prime. It’s been so great. Um but watch Canon for that hour blows away the 22 years. And I’ve done some things, Chris. I’ve seen some things, done some things. I’ve been effective. I’ve been great at what I’ve done. But being there for that hour trumped that because I couldn’t do that in the past. I literally had two phones. If I were to take Canon to jiu-jitsu or an event, Alicia would come in her car, I come in my car and probably have to walk out halfway through. So just to be there, to be present, Yeah. was the joy, right? That was the joy. And at the end of the day, Ken don’t care. I’m a state police officer. He’s He’s been in the helicopter. He’s He’s helped me tug. He’s seen all that stuff. But he don’t care. He just cares about his ice cream and cares about dad. Yeah. Hey, Dad. Can we get ice cream? You know what I mean? Or hey, can we go to And it takes a while to come back to that. You know what I mean? Like to come back to the hardest thing for anybody is the hardest thing for anybody, right? We all have different experiences and I don’t share all the stuff that you know he doesn’t know the dangers I’ve been in. My wife doesn’t know half the dangers that I’ve been in and stuff and stuff but their dangers are different like you know what I mean? I’d come home and have to deal with something potential argument. It was like I’m like okay but I just Yeah. Right. So hard to shut that. I had to be reminded thanks to my therapist that that that was an important thing for them and it mattered to them. So, you need to make it matter to you regardless of you’ve just got into a physical fight with a murderer and had to subdue him. Now, it’s dinner time. Didn’t take, you know, didn’t take the tra didn’t put the toilet. It’s like, dang. Yeah. But that I had to be reminded that that mattered to that person. Mhm. Do you know what I mean? So again, it’s all stuff in the backpack, you know, in in the armor and this and that. So anyways, going back to what we you mentioned, the evol thing, I ended up throwing out my resume and and getting an interview with the Academy School District 20 here to be an armed armed security officer. So, and that’s that’s my retirement gig, and I love it. I I’m at a middle school and I didn’t know at the time that I would love it the way I love it because being there it’s it’s an amazing landing spot coming off of where I come from. I get to maintain the exact same schedule for my son. So I get to be home and be a dad. Um and then I also get to interact with in a sense this this innocent crowd that doesn’t know who I was, what I did. Mhm. They’re just being them going through their life. Mhm. You know, so it’s like, oh, oh. Oh. So, I’m I’m finding my feet again. Yeah. You said before the show that you you love working with the kids. Yeah. Yeah. I love being around them. That’s a tough age, right? Yeah. And I think it’s a perfect age for me. I I think elementary school would have been uh wouldn’t have been bad. Yeah. I met a middle school group. I think high school No, too much. I think high school would have been like I’m a cop again. I don’t want to deal with criminals. like junior high is a real serious inflection point. It’s it’s a it’s a you know it’s they’re they’re learning how to walk talk. They’re they’re figuring out who they might be and I’ve made some great met some great little young kids, you know, and some that I I’ve talked to for three years and watched them grow and but I I I really believe this that it’s helped me more than I’ve helped it. My skill set in that building is greater than the building, right? like what I can do hopefully and never have to it it’s you know it’s it’s lopsided like we get something I’m equipped to deal with it hopefully knock on wood um but what they give to me unknowingly from the educators to the students is is tremendous wife’s like you doing that you can go do this and make so much more and do this and make so much more you can teach this you can teach that I said yeah but this is for me it’s filling you up and yes it’s fing me up. Yeah, that’s how I feel about my work. I’ll sit down with folks that are 5 days sober, just coming off the worst day of their life, and I’ll walk away, they’ll say, “Thank you.” And I’m like, “No, thank you.” Yeah. This has impacted me far greater than anything I could have ever said or done. Yeah. It’s like, you know, even some of our conversations we’ve had and some conversations with other um fathers and parents at jiu-jitsu, it’s just regardless of who I was and what I did, right now, we’re all in the fight to be parents. Yeah. And I say that because we that’s how we’ve all met and that’s how we’ve become. But we’re all we all have our our backpacks. Mhm. For different reasons, but we’re all right now and and again, another plug to Prime because that’s how a lot of us met through Prime. We’re bettering our kids. Y, you know, and a lot of us are watching our kids and now we’re out there with our kids, you know, and for there’s several reasons for that, you know. For me, it’s like, yeah, you know what? I I how how best to Yep. be a be a partner, be out there and feel it, too, you know, and go through it. But that environment, I don’t I don’t know if I would have had it in Albuquerque so much. Um, but it it’s helped me get to where I’m at. It’s helped us get to where we’re at. But I love what you talk about there because it’s we talk about it a lot on the show with folks in recovery. It’s just about like formulating community and we get to all go in there with our backpacks and we get to take half of it out and share it with someone else and split it 50/50. Yep. And it feels so much better to do that. I guess where I want to circle back to or bring up to wrap this thing up is what would you say to first responders, potentially veterans, folks in the community right now that have that phone in their hand and have been impacted by the trauma that you walk through through substance use, exacerbated mental health issues, and it’s created a tremendous amount of quality of life issues. What would you say to that first responder who’s got the phone in his hand today that’s uh potentially dying one day at a time? What would you say to them in regards to courage and making that call? I would say that the courage, the courage is acknowledging that you need assistance. Yeah. Or that you may need assistance. Right. Raising your hand. Say, “Hey, uh, excuse my language. I’m a little [ ] up.” Yeah. You know, that’s why I’m here today, right? I mean, I’m a 200lb man. I can fight. I could shoot. I can do a lot of things. But guess what? I’m a little [ ] up. Yeah. And it’s not that law enforcement [ __ ] no it’s it’s life and stuff and you know but the courage and the strength and the true power is to say yeah I need some help. Yeah. I want to be helped cuz I want to be better than I was the day before. So my words to to my brother-in-law one he’s a firefighter here in town. I’m like hey don’t don’t be afraid to ask for help. Don’t be afraid to talk about what you seen. I said, “And and I’m here for you because what you’ve seen and done, you may not be able to go home and talk to your wife, my sister, right? But you can come talk to me.” Yeah. Cuz I understand it cuz I’ve seen it, too. Yeah. I said, “And don’t keep it to yourself.
You know, it’s going in the backpack. It’s going in the backpack.” You know, we’ll tell stories. We’ll laugh at some of the stories. As many funny stories we have, we have some bad ones. you know, as many great things that we’ve done. We’ve seen some bad stuff, very bad stuff, you know, that sticks with us to this day. But my my my words of encouragement or hey, know what you’re getting into, but we need you to get into it. Yeah. But have somebody on the other end to help you decipher it or compartmentalize things or do the best you can with what you’re going to see and what you’re going to do. But we need you to see and do those things. Yeah. Period. I need you to be a monster. Yeah. I said, I need you to, but as you become that monster, you’re letting stuff go. Yeah. And there’s just no room for all of it. But maybe it’s close. So when you’re done with this, you can scoop it all back in and put it back in. That’s the best thing I can think I can say is is be ready to talk about it or deal with it. And don’t be don’t don’t act like it doesn’t exist. Don’t be ruled by the stigma. I’m I’m super tough. I think the toughest people the toughest people in my eyes are people that can say, “Hey, I need some help with that.” Yeah. I need some help. Because that’s right. You We’re afraid to do that. Well, now if you’re not afraid to do that, well, now it just makes you tough, right? Right. And we all need a helping hand. Every single one of us needs help. There’s no way we got to where we are without somebody helping us along the way. You know, that’s so well stated. I I think we often times talk about it in the recovery field. It’s like the first step to fixing a problem or an issue in your life is admitting that you have one. Yeah, that can be the toughest thing. But that was beautifully stated. I think for the folks out there that are struggling or um just feeling like you can’t pick up the phone, I hope you guys dial into this conversation today with with Curtis, his 22 years of experience, his experience as a father, the benefit of hindsight he’s bringing to the room and the openness of what you shared today is really really beautiful, man. I think the healing process often times starts with authenticity, right? And I appreciate your authenticity, vulnerability, too. Like you got to you got to know that that you know it’s you. Yep. People say, “What are you going to do when you retire?” I said, “I’m going to look in the mirror. I’m going to fix that.” Like, “I’m going to I don’t like what I see.” Mhm. And you know, most people like, “I don’t even notice that you didn’t know that you’re that bad. It’s not not that I was that bad. I know that I wasn’t who I could be. Sometimes I I was busy being this.” And I couldn’t be this and this. I wasn’t good at. Maybe there are people that were. Yeah. So now I’ve got to shift into this thing. Y and I’m still shifting. I’m still looking at it and I’m still dealing with the Oh, man. This could have been this or this could have been that. But yeah, I appreciate the opportunity, man. I think we scratched the There’s so much more. But I appreciate the opportunity. Yeah. Yeah. I I love that you mentioned that as well. I think it’s uh really vital for our first responders. We care about them. We support them. Um and we need to ensure that we do that and keep that door open. And so we’re happy to have you at Peaks Recovery, whether it’s outpatient, inpatient services, um, where healing can truly begin. And Curtis, thanks again for coming on the show, buddy. Thank you. Thank you for your service. Thank you for the opportunity. The service was my pleasure, my honor. And, you know, I appreciate you so much. Awesome. Thank you, sir. To all our viewers out there, friends, families, colleagues, and co-workers, until next time. Peace.
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Episode 150Not a Program – A Place to Belong with Jared MarquetteWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/rBHhEytDHRIListen NowDescriptionIn this powerful episode of Finding Peaks, Chris Burns sits down with Jared Marquette — founder of Archipelago Denver and Sonder Sober Living — for a rich and honest look at what recovery can look like when it’s built around people, not just programs. Together, they explore how recovery isn’t about fixing what’s broken — it’s about remembering the perfection we were born into, navigating suffering with purpose, and discovering your own true north. Jared brings raw personal stories, inspiring insights, and a deeply human approach to community and healing. From building spaces that feel like home to challenging the norms of treatment culture, this conversation is for anyone seeking meaning, connection, and hope. Thank you, Jared, for such an authentic conversation. Learn more at archipelagodenver.com and sondersoberliving.com.

Talking Points1. Introduction to the Show 2. Meet Jared 3. The origin of the Archipelago Club in Denver 4. Finding your true north 5. What works for you? 6. People first 7. Born in perfection 8. Building the life you want 9. Creating meaning in suffering 10. A sober living community 11. Colorados provider network 12. You are not alone 13. sondersoberliving.com 14. archipelagodenver.com 15. Final thoughts Quotes

“Suffering ceases to be suffering as it finds meaning”. -Jared Marquette

Episode Transcripts

Episode -150- Transcriptssuffering ceases to be suffering as it finds meaning. So just showing people that like even in sobriety like you can have a really fun exciting life and you can build it the way that you want to build it. It can look a million different ways. I always say the single greatest coping mechanism I’ve ever experienced or witnessed or held space within my recovery is community. Yeah. of like how do I really get aligned with my mental, my spiritual and my physical self just to come back to that place that does tell me that I am perfect imperfect which is perfect like I’m perfectly me. [Music] [Applause] [Music] Hey everybody and welcome to another amazing, exciting and of course enthusiastic episode of Finding Peaks. host Chris Burns, president and founder here at Peaks Recovery Centers, established in 2014. Coming up on our 11-year anniversary in September, get excited. A lot of good things coming there. Um, I am humbled and honored today to be joined by a guest um that I just hold in high regard in our community, offering services to folks in a vulnerable community that desperately need it. It’s very much integrated. We have Jared Marquette here today. He is the owner of Sonder Integrated Living as well as Archipelago Club. Welcome to the show, sir. Thank you very much. I’m happy to be here. So grateful to have you. I want to we had a conversation for about 20 minutes prior to the show and I just want to dive in where we first picked up and tell us a little bit about your journey, even the venture capital stuff and how you moved through that with your mental health and began to um think about things that were more purpose driven like a capelgo and certainly SER. Um I want the viewers to really get some context for your story and and why you’re sitting here today. Yeah, it’s interesting. It’s uh you know the Steve Jobs commitment or commencement speech where you can’t connect the dots looking forward. You can only connect them looking back. Um so as I’m going through it, it always feels chaotic. And then when I look back, I’m like, “Oh, that makes sense. That that works here and there.” And um you know, I I started my professional career really um at about 30 years old. I went back to school in my late 20s to get an MBA and ended up going into venture capital work and moved to Nashville to work for uh venture capital like kind of aggregate there and I didn’t really know what venture capital was. I got really lucky. It’s like a big part of my story is is lucky. Um my godfather would say the harder you work the luckier you get. I like that. And so I do too. It makes sense. um and ended up in DC working for a few funds up there that were very purpose- driven funds and my job was kind of to build community and so to aggregate, organize and communicate resources that supported the investments that we made which just kind of put me out in the community in front of people all of which were trying to accomplish different things. Um I moved every Sunday for a year and a half to a new city and yeah it was a lot. It was it was a whole lot and it was beautiful and and I’m really appreciative for it. Um, also it was it was really tiring. Yeah. And at one point we hired an intern who like graduated Yale Law School at like 23 or 24. She’d worked for FEMA. She came in as an intern. She was willing to work like 90 hours a week, no problem. And I was just like taking at her all to keep up with her. and you know it was really unhealthy and and had a moment of of recognition where I was like I don’t think I’m built for this and I didn’t want to admit that but I just felt out of alignment. I felt really unhealthy. I hadn’t gone to the gym. I went once at this place near my apartment that I never saw in DC to a CrossFit gym and thought I was going to die. And I used to do CrossFit all the time and I felt great. It was just I realized like how far off base I was. And I came back to Denver because I’d previously lived in Denver and came back for New Year’s Eve, talked to my mom on the phone. I remember I was walking through Rhino and I told her, I was like, I don’t think I can leave. Like, I don’t think I can go back to that. And she said, well, don’t. And I ended up seeing a friend a few days later who sent me to a breath work because I was telling him just about how I was feeling and how far away from myself I was feeling and had like a really profound experience in this breath work. And I’m a skeptic with all things still at Archipelago. I get made fun of because I’m always like that’s not real. Like that’s not a real thing. What does the water even do for you? Yeah. You know, and I said it about acupuncture one time and someone’s like, “Oh, so you’re telling me like thousands of years of anecdotal evidence from millions of people doesn’t equal your own random opinion.” I was like, “Oh man, okay, maybe maybe I should rethink this.” Um, but after that, you know, I started looking at like the ways that I was trying to keep myself healthy and how unhealthy I’d been. And I still had the the venture capital lens of, you know, what’s this community like well positioned to support Denver well positioned to support? What are people looking for? What am I spending money on that I think other people will be spending money on in the future? And it was wellness. And so we ended up me and business partner Jason Shepard and then um brought in someone named Nora Saxs that was working at Summit which is I don’t know are you familiar with Summit out in Utah? Um they put on big experiential events around wellness. It’s it’s a great organization and brought her in and decided to open up membership focused wellness community like a social club. Um so like Soho House but just like not as nice and not as big and not as fancy. Um and did that for about eight years. We’ve been doing it for eight years. I thought we’d be in 10 cities in five years and there came a point where that just became clear it wasn’t going to happen. the model wasn’t there. We weren’t making the money that we needed to. We could support stability in a market. We couldn’t really support growth. And so decided to shut it down. Actually, a month after my dad passed away, we decided to shut it down. Um, which was like a really hard decision to make and a lot of loss kind of balled in to one. Um, and I kind of spiraled again from there and I for a year just got really depressed and then hit like a breaking point. I don’t know if it’s I started googling like what’s happening to me because it felt specific but really foreign to me and the best I could come up with was like ego death. Like over the course of a few days I just went like full dark night of the soul. I I I just I became wildly depressed and decided that I was going to take a year off and took time off of work. Ended up going to walk the Camino de Santiago. Um and so, you know, walked 35 days, eight hours a day in silence. And at the end of it, just realized that I really wasn’t okay. um at that point that I really like decided to dedicate dedicate myself to doing the right things for me, which had always been cold plunge here. Yeah. Drink less than most people. It would be good, but I finally said like I have to cut out the things that I have to cut out. Um and got really healthy and was looking for a project. And at Archipelago, we’d seen a lot of people come in that were recently sober or sober curious, finding their sobriety, and they were all staying sober. And that was an unexpected outcome of the business itself. It’s not what we intended in the beginning. Um, and during the course of all of this too, I had some family back home who were opening up sober living facilities and they wanted to open up something out here. Ended up not working out to do it together, but I’d gotten in my head to do it. And last November decided to go for it and open up a sober living house. that really thought that I had not necessarily knowledge on what it meant to be in addiction recovery, but what it meant to like build intentional, purposeful, mindful, healthy life, and that that could really help people. I’d seen it help people through archipelago. And so, we ended up opening in February down in Denver. We have a women’s house down there, looking for a second house right now. And yeah, it kind of brings us to where we’re at now. That’s beautiful. I I love what you said about the Achapelago Club and what it created, kind of the vision for helping folks within your integrated um recovery home up there in Denver in Cherry Creek specifically because I I’ve talked about it on the show before, but I I always say the single greatest coping mechanism I’ve ever experienced or witnessed or held space with in my recovery is community. Yeah. And it’s interesting because I think a lot of our viewers might think, especially substance use folks, might think, well, no, I have to be in this one community because that’s where all the addicts are and that’s where the people that can relate to me. But your story brings up something far more clear. It’s like, no, when I can be connected in community, have a great person to my right and a great person to my left, and be seen, valued, and heard in that, my life can take on new meaning. Absolutely. And I love that you guys were able to foster that through a capella and and really begin to see that. And even even with Sonder as well, it’s just kind of like a community center of folks that come together from all different walks of life. It’s all pathways. You do mental health, but more than anything, you help people integrate their lives and find their passion, kind of find their true north. How do you how do you explore that with folks, especially with folks maybe who have come through our program that have been kind of hitting over the head with uh a substance use approach throughout their entire recovery, a substance use approach throughout their treatment or some treatment programs even offering 12 steps within their treatment program as a way of group therapy? How do you not dismantle but kind of uncover and unpack with your guests that there potentially is a different opportunity? Yeah. I think one is just like to give access to opportunity, right? It’s like I can explain to you. You cold plunch. Yeah. Like it’s a thing that you do. It’s a thing I try and do. I’m terrible at it. Yeah. Like I’m real bad. I’m like a one minute and I try. I can I always set it for 4:15 cuz it takes me 15 seconds cuz I’ll sit there and be like, “You getting in? You getting in?” Yeah. I’m pretty much the same way. And then like I’ve learned just like go all the way under. So that way when your head pops up, your head’s warm all of a sudden. provides this weird relief. Um, but you know, I can explain it to you. I can explain that it’s good for you, but it it doesn’t really matter until you do it. Yeah. And you know, for us, I don’t even really tell people that I’m trying to get them to explore different avenues to their own wellness and recovery and and really just like building themsel and their routine. I just show them things and let them experience them for themselves. Like at at Sa we have pretty much weekly or bi-weekly programming that we bring into the house. And it might be a journaling workshop. It might be a breath work. We go to archipelago and do the cold plunge in the sauna. We do sound healings. And I don’t expect that everyone’s life is changed by any means by doing one of these things. But you know if there’s eight people there from the house for it, two or three of them really connect to it and then they start to explore it for themselves. And that was the whole idea of archipelago is we just wanted to do like a lot of varied things for people and give them the opportunity to experience the modality and see what worked for them. And I think the other part is we try and create like a space of aspiration. And so, you know, we say like we’re a hopebased approach. And I think that that’s saying that we want people to at Archipelago, at Sa, just in my general community, anyone around me, like I want them to understand that like life is difficult. I get that. Life is suffering and and I I prescribe to that to a degree. It can also be beautiful and you can build it as you want to build it. So just showing people that like even in sobriety like you can have a really fun exciting life and you can build it the way that you want to build it. It can it can look a million different ways and I think that we I think the 12step approach is amazing and has helped so many people and it’s a great foundation. I think for a lot of people there comes a point where they start to say like okay like I want to build a life like I want to build my life and you kind of see that boredom start to set in at like 90 days and and they think like is this it? And so just trying to show people like it can be but it doesn’t have to be. You can experience different things. You can experience different people. You can experience life differently. and just giving them the opportunity to do so and giving them the freedom like in the house I was telling you we had the group of the girls came to me and they said does they have four weekly programs they have to do a week can be yoga it can be meditation it can be aa they’re like you know we all want to go to the fireworks does that count towards our weekly program I was like absolutely that’s like the healthiest thing I’ve heard you guys say that you want to do in a long time you’re going to go you’re going to be sober together you’re going to have this great experience you’re going to come back and think like that was a great night and I didn’t use I didn’t drink you know and so I understand that this is an option I understand that this is out there for me and so kind of letting them find it too and we really encourage them we say like don’t be afraid to ask if it counts I’ll tell you if it doesn’t but the only requirement that we have for the programs is they’re in community working out by yourself doesn’t count going to a workout class does um and so you know just putting them in a position to be together and experience it together I think is a huge part of it That’s incredible. That’s a lot different emphasis and communication than something like if you want what I have, you’ll do what I do. Yeah. That’s tough, you know, and that feels a lot of times like suffocating. Yeah. And it’s interesting you say that, you know, a lot of folks stories, a lot of your guests stories around 90 days, they’re like, what do we do now? I spent a lot of time in Alcoholics Anonymous and absolutely love my time in there, but there’s a constant theme and it’s a very important story I think for people to hear. And you know, I always say it was between five and 10 years. Five and 10 years. I can’t tell you how many friends in there. I’m like, am I the only one sitting in here thinking I’m I should kill myself? Like, am I the only one in here that like my quality of life is about a four? And it has nothing to do with the program. It provided me a foundation for sobriety and recovery that was amazing. But we got to have purpose in our lives. At least I know I have to have purpose. When I can be purpose driven, I can be authentic. Yeah. And that lack of authenticity and not having autonomy to explore what might benefit myself in my recovery and the ones around me can be really difficult to process. Yeah. You know, Yeah. The um I love what you said too about you you allow Saipelago. Yeah. And so we we go in once a month. we try and do which anyone listening to this should check out um like broader communityoriented sober activities and so it’s for anybody our house has their dedicated spaces there so if we do a breath work for 40 people we take up eight to 10 spaces and then the rest is for anyone else who wants to come try it and then we also go in for different programs and I use the practitioners very fortunate to have network of practitioners we built over eight years through archipelago all of which are unbelievably willing to support this cause. I mean, it’s beautiful. Um that they they just love that this is something that’s happening to. And so, yeah, we take people into there, too, because I also want to like get them out of the house and into public. Like, there’s this shame around sober living and and I get it. And you know, everyone that comes in, I say the first thing to them, they like look kind of sad. I’m like, “No one wants to be here.” And it’s okay that you feel that way. No one like says like I’m glad that I’ve ended up in sober living. Yeah. You know, but but it’s a step, but also like there’s there’s a lot of people out there that are in the same position as you. And it’s just like not talked about and like let’s get out there and let’s put you in archipelago, which isn’t a place for sober people. It’s a place for anybody trying to make their life better. And ultimately, that’s all you are is like another person trying to make your life better. I don’t know how many times we have the conversation at the house of they start explaining to me something that’s going wrong and it’s difficult in their life and it’s because they’re an addict. It’s because they’re in recovery and I’m like I don’t know how to tell you this but that’s just a human experience of what you’re having right there. Like I have it. Everyone has it. You know, like s like defined as the momentary recognition that we all live deep and intricate lives that you do, that the person that see out the window does. And you know, I think that if we all could take a step back and just recognize that we’re all in this in the same capacity. We’re all, you know, humans. We’re we’re souls having this experience. then it kind of takes some of the pressure off to like think of us so much as individuals instead of just people that we belong and we deserve and we can have the same things as everyone else. Even the setup of the house like our house is intentionally very well set up. It’s beautiful and it’s because like that’s what they deserve, you know, and not what they need to aspire to. It’s like what they what they deserve now. They deserve to be in the public spaces. They deserve to be in programs with other people that are sober or not sober and working together. Yeah, I love that. And they absolutely do deserve that because they’re making like one of the most courageous decisions of their life%. You know, we have this concierge hospitality approach to our guest and most certainly in the first 72 hours because they’re the most important people in the room. And so we always go out, we meet the family, it’s very concierge. Can I get you something to drink? Like we want them to feel like because they’re there today, it’s the Super Bowl for us. Yeah. It’s the freaking Super Bowl. Every day is the Super Bowl. And we talked about it a little bit before the show. It’s like we get to do this privileged work with people and explore with them like what might make them feel human again. Yeah. I mean that’s incredible stuff. Yeah. And I love that you’re introducing to not just you know we can go to AA meetings. I I love that. Um but also in introducing these third party resources, introducing people to breath work. Yeah. I never I didn’t know how to breathe. I still struggle with it until I had 10 years sober. Yeah. Nobody ever said, “Bro, you need to breathe.” Yeah. like breathe this thing you do every day all day you’re Yeah like you’re holding your breath again you know and I never thought for a moment that that would help me in my recovery but it’s been foundational for me and so I just I really love the approach that you’re taking um the concier the hospitality the putting the individuals first because so often we refer out to so sober living homes and they’re met with quite the opposite you know yeah and I mean it’s a tough space right and it’s I think all of it’s needed I’m not saying that there aren’t bad actors in the space, but like you know it’s it’s we provide service to like a specific set of people and it’s taken us six to eight months to figure out who that is and what it looks like and and for us we say life integration more than sober living. Yeah. We aren’t here to help you get sober. Um there are lots of great resources for that. If I tried to say I was one of them, I’d be lying. It’d be like me telling you that I’m gonna make you a bodybuilder, right? And I’m, you know, 5 foot 10, maybe nine and 150 pounds. You know, it’s like you shouldn’t listen to me there. Um, but, you know, for people that have found a foundation in their sobriety and are looking more towards the future and building a life like I think we are a good resource and there are other places that are going to be better at that. I think the 12 steps is again a great foundation for things and can be something that you continue to integrate throughout your life. Y um but you know we’ve we’ve kind of learned our place through trial and error and I think in acknowledging that has been important. You know it’s kind of like the who am I to tell you what to do and I’m not anyone to tell anyone what to do. I can give you an idea of things that might work but also with just in my realm of I even hate to call it expertise but experience which is more around wellness and habit building and um yeah the life integration piece. Yeah. Don’t you feel like um one of my favorite humans in this field, his name’s TJ Woodward. He’s an author and he wrote a recovery program called Conscious Recovery. It’s incredible. It’s an incredible recovery program. But what he often talks about in that program is for therapy, right? And to be able to help someone, it’s really about taking care of ourselves. Yeah. and then holding that space with another that they too have exactly inside of them buried somewhere inside that exact perfection that that we’re holding. Yeah. And he he’s really clear on and I always talk about this on the show, but um he said when we’re born we we have this unique perfection. He’s like, “You ever had a kid?” I was like, “Yeah, I’ve had kids and I’ve watched them come out and not for a moment would I say that’s anything other than perfect.” Yeah. And so we have this perfection inside of us and then life builds. And so your approach is really reminding me of just reidentifying that perfection, that humanness, and also like something happened to you, but there’s nothing wrong with you. Yeah. You know, and I think we tell ourselves a variety of messages that can be conflated and blown up over time and create and exacerbate a ton of shame. Yeah. You know, it’s even I woke up this morning and my girlfriend’s doing a rotation down here in Colorado Springs and she Memorial or um UC Health. UC Health. Okay. Yeah. And one she’s a surgery resident. She’s a badass. I already sometimes I just feel inadequate, you know, with what she does. I really do. And you know, she got up at 5:30 this morning and then I laid around until 6:30 and then it’s 7:00 and I get out of bed and then I get on my phone and there came a moment this morning like I had a lot of shame. Like I was coming here to this. I’m like and I text I literally texted her and I was like I feel like a fraud going to do this and what like who am I to do any of this? I don’t get it, you know, and she’s incredibly supportive. But, you know, what I ended up needing to do was go to the gym, work out, get in the cold plunge, eat some healthy food, and come back to myself. And I think that such a big part of this is like helping people understand that they are always deserving and they’re not always going to feel that way. It’s not like you just flip this switch and one day you’re good. Yeah. It’s one morning you’re bad. What do you do to get better? And you know, we try and give people the tools to come back to that to like find themsel. And you know, it took me an hour and a half to come to a place where I thought like, okay, I can go do this podcast and feel good about myself and you know, but it’s always there. And I think with a lot of what we do with a mindful practice, you recovery 2.0, know, I’ve heard you call it on the podcast before, you know, of like how do I really get aligned with my mental, my spiritual, and my physical self just to come back to that place that does tell me that I am perfect, imperfect. Yeah. Which is perfect. Like I’m perfectly me. Yeah. Um and you know, it just it it takes time and effort and and again, I think that’s the life integration piece is life, not like momentary integration or one year integration. It’s it’s like this is going to be you for the rest of your life and like how do we build that and how do we build that habit? Yeah. I actually love that you brought that up. I don’t think hopefully the viewers don’t think that every day Chris Burns has amazing days. Yeah. But you introduced an element that we chatted a little bit before the show and maybe touched on here, but like you’re just introducing humanness. Yeah. And I love what you do with some of your guests in your program is, you know, they come in and they say them certain things and you know, I might be this, I might be that. And I love what you you tell them back and it’s like you’re human. You’re experiencing a human experience and we’re all experiencing it. Yeah. My fellowship just got 100 times bigger, you know? So now we’re all in this thing together called life. Yeah. So I love how you introduced that on the show. It’s really authentic and I think it’s important. It’s similar to, you know, this morning when I woke up, I’m like, mother of God, when my feet hit the floor, I was like, there’s no way this can happen today. Yeah. But I’m like, all right, I’ll just do a mile. I’ve talked about this all the time. I’ll do a mile. And then I get over the hill and I’m like, all right, make it two. All right, well the down the back is downhill, so that’s easy. make it three. Come back. I’m just going to do a couple sets. I’m going to do this. Then I just do one step, one breath, one day, one thing at a time. And I’ve been talking a lot lately, too, about especially folks in early recovery and just experiencing life on life’s terms. It’s like sometimes our goals are too big and that can create shame. Yeah. And so if if if the mountain seems too big to climb, we just make a smaller goal. Yeah. You know, and it feels like that’s kind of the the path that you deliver for the folks that call Sonder home for and it is a it’s a minimum of a three-month commitment, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, they’re calling it home and they can live up there for up to two years. It reminds me of when we first opened Peaks, we’d have guys picking up couple years in recovery and it’s just cool to be able to live um side by side with those folks. Yeah. It’s amazing to see our house manager the other day and we were sitting in a meeting and she had this throwaway comment that she said, “This is the first home I’ve had in 16 years.” And I was like, “Can we come back to that?” Hold on. Like, what do you mean? Like, yeah, this is like that’s that’s amazing. That’s beautiful. Like, I I I would have never thought that, you know? And yeah, that people need space to be and to live and to like have their experience and to be able to provide that and create that is is amazing. You know, archipelago, we called it the third space. So, it’s not your house, it’s not your work, it’s a third space. I think we didn’t make that up. And it’s kind There’s a third space coffee down here. Yeah. Yeah. It’s like it’s kind of common nomenclature. And um which I kind of thought this was going to be it, but that was a memoir. I was I was like, “Oh, no. this is the first space for some people. Like I I didn’t even realize that that’s what we were creating. Um which is a beautiful moment, too. Yeah. And that’s really cool. Yeah. When I hear those things, it’s just like humbles me to my soul. It’s like we did this together. He’s like, “No, you did. No, we did it.” Yeah. You know, I had a guy um who went through our program. He was an old biker guy, a big old gray beard. He just left like four or five days ago, and I got to hang out with him a little bit in his last couple weeks. We shared a smoothie and he sat down with me the other day and he was like, “Five things in my life, my first kid being born, my second kid being born, um getting married to my wife. There was one other thing.” And he said, “In Peak’s recovery, top five.” I mean, he’s a six-year-old. He’s been through a ton. We get this opportunity and to sit with people on, you know, potentially their worst day and walk them into a life that they didn’t even know was possible. Yeah. And I love how we can approach it today because you know guys will sit down with me sometimes and women they’ll sit down they’ll say okay well how do I do it like I don’t know I know I don’t know. Yeah thing is I’m like I am not the one to tell you that. No one else is like you’re going to have to figure that out yourself. Exactly. We can be supportive of that but like yeah this is your journey. Yeah. You know and that’s a beautiful thing. It’s a journey. It’s you read all the epics and like we we idolize and we fantasize about these extreme scenarios where we’re the hero or the heroin and we we’re and then we comes to our life and we just want it to be so perfect and so smooth. Mhm. But like also do we like isn’t there something kind of beautiful like the people in the house like I get these moments sometimes and it’s even hard for me to understand how I feel about it that I recognize like there’s this extreme beauty in the fact that their life has like this arc that they’re going to be able to overcome something hopefully you know so significant and that’s that’s life like that’s what you look back on and are proud of. that’s what you like that’s what makes you who you are like I think all of us look back on life and like the things we’re the most proud of were the hardest things you know and like this is an opportunity and if they can see it that way to like really go through something tremendously difficult and our house manager had to have back surgery um like two years ago she had back surgery and then she back had been getting worse and one day I walked in the house and she could barely walk and I’m like you got to go to the hospital she’s like they’re going to keep me there. She’s like, “That’s what they do, you know.” And she’s an addict and and you know, spent several years on the streets and and she’s just like, “I know how the hospitals go.” I’m like, “No, you’re going to be fine.” She gets in the hospital and they’re like, “You’re going to be here like seven weeks.” Like, “Oh, I told you.” I’m like, “Oh, you were right. My bad.” Um, but it turns out that she had had a like sepsis, like a spinal infection. Oh, sure. and she got sober and stayed sober and has still been sober, but it’s been 10 months now. For nine months of that, having a spinal infection and having to get like part of her spinal column removed through the surgery, having to spend seven weeks in the hospital. And at the end of it, she’s like, I feel like it’s just kicking my butt. I’m like, I kind of think you’re kicking it’s it’s a hard fight. Like, I’m not saying this is an easy fight, but I’m like, I think you’re winning. You know, you just kind of saw her like she sat with it for a minute and she’s like, yeah. And I’m like, “Yeah, you are.” Like, “This is going to be a huge part of your life.” You know, this is just like something you can be so proud of. And just to see them, the little things, the big things, like I’m proud this morning I went to the gym. Yeah. And the cold punch. Like it’s a little thing, but like I’m proud. It made my day better. And seeing them with the little things that they do when they get up a little earlier, when they read 10 pages of a book to when they hit a year sobriety, you know, it’s that and everything in between. just these like moments of of joy and like understanding that they’re like creating this life that they kind of didn’t think they would have at some point and to see that it’s just beautiful. Yeah, it really is. And and I don’t think a lot of people fighting for recovery, mental health or otherwise know how that’s going to be received in the community because oftentimes they haven’t been received well as a result. Yeah. You know, and and I think to your point, words really matter and reframing really matters. I was reading I mean it was a podcast who knows um it’s a handful of months ago but it was talking about like cancer diagnosises and how when you go in and you you’re cancer free the doctor tells you you’re in remission and like what that does to individuals as opposed to be like you’re cancer free we beat this thing. Yeah. Let’s go. So then I’m not telling myself a story that there’s a boogeyman in the closet that’s going to come get me. Yeah. Creating unnecessary whatever in my nervous system. Yeah. You know. So, I love that opportunity because we have this we have this ability today or this this this opportunity um to sit with people who have very negative narratives about themselves and others. And that little reframe allows people to peek in a window that they didn’t know was in the house. Yeah. And the other part of it that I’ve recognized is like exposure. So, kind of back to like taking them to archipelago or like telling them to go like exist in the world. And something unique, most of my friends and like my have a big core friend group. Like we do like once a year 30 guy trips. It’s like for being 41, I have like too many friends. Very fortunate for it. That’s awesome. Most of them aren’t sober, you know. Um and when I first started this, they were like, “Oh man, like are you sure? Like it’s going to be really tough the type of people in the house.” And they’re like, you know, and they weren’t trying to look down on it, but they they they were, you know, to a degree. And here we are eight months later and all my friends are like, “Tell me how Lindsay is doing. She’s killing it. She’s so killing it.” And so like all my friends, like even their attitude on it is just like changed so dramatically that they’re like proud of these people that they don’t know. And you know, I’m not sharing like the details with them of things, but when I get excited about something, I’m like, “This girl in my house is killing it.” Like, you know, she just went through this really hard thing and she stayed sober. And their attitude is is looking at it like it seems like they look at each other when they do something great. It’s not this like pity congratulations. It’s like oh man they did something really hard and that’s amazing. And so I think just like continuing to open up the exposure to it and you know it’s like 20% of adults suffer from some sort of substance issue. 25 of us almost with mental health issues like it’s everywhere. And to tell me 25% of people suffer from mental health give me Exactly. It’s up there. 25% report. Yeah. you know, and it’s like way up, we all do, like it’s all on a spectrum. Um, but you know, just to kind of see people start to like recognize that it’s just like a different form of struggle and we all struggle and um so that’s been like a really cool thing too and I think again like it makes me want to do more and more to like get it out in the world and and get people more exposed to the idea that like there’s there’s so much beauty in this struggle too. And you know, Victor Frankl has a quote that suffering ceases to be suffering as it finds meaning. And I think for these people in recovery, as they start to recognize that they do inspire, that they’re suffering, that they’ve always viewed as suffering and it was nothing but suffering, it’s this bad, terrible time, it starts to get meaning because it’s helping somebody else or it’s changing the paradigm. and shifting people’s perspective and it creates meaning and then it kind of ceases to be suffering. There’s this switch this moment that all of a sudden like that struggle for that that year that five years that 10 years doesn’t become suffering it becomes important. It becomes part of life and not just their life but everyone’s life you know and it’s it’s like a really amazing thing to see too. Yeah. Man’s Search for Mania. That’s a great book. Yeah, it is. It’s wild. It’s a it’s it’s wild. It’s like the most horrific place on earth. But we talk about purpose and defining purpose and meaning as a foundation for life. Yeah. And the folks that were able to do that with the hellacious situation they had to walk through. Yeah. Found survival. Yeah. You know, in in a very very dark place. Yeah. You know, so introducing that, that was another thing I wanted to bring up is like your integrated home sa specifically. I I think this can be not just for people who are coming out of an inpatient treatment program or people coming out of Rose House or people, you know, transitioning out of these really heavy kind of clinical settings. You know, this is starting to speak to me of like, you know, folks in community that are just having quality of life issues, identifying purpose, like what’s my road map? What does my life look like? How do I find There was a program out of Carbondale. it’s not around anymore and it was it was kind of apparent to Jaywalker Lodge but it was it was very similar in what you guys do and the example they gave me um was you know we had a guy come in you know and they had to have a year sober to get into the program. Yeah. So they had to be at that point that you’re talking about where it’s like what am I doing? Where am I going? And who’s coming with me? Um and he he defines a moment where he’s like this guy he’d never been in a he’d never been in a helicopter before but he wanted to be a helicopter pilot. He just loved it man. and he loses the TV, Blackhawk down, loved all his stuff. Really just loved it. They’re like, “Hey, man. Well, let’s get this thing booked for you. Let’s get you up in a helicopter. See how it feels, man.” And he went up there. He’s like, “I hate this. I hate this. I hate this.” And so, we just strike that off the list. We don’t have to go down this path. I don’t have to go to school. I don’t have to get in the simulator to find myself in the helicopter two years down the road and be like, “Wait a minute.” Yeah. So, I love that you introduce people to like ideas and concepts and, you know, different opportunities for work and relationships because something’s going to stick. Yeah. We have someone in our house right now and her recovery is pretty much going hiking. I love it. Like, and she does other things, too, but like if I was just to stick her in a room four days a week to have conversations with 40 people, I just don’t see her connecting that well to it, you know? and she’s been great. She’s amazing to have in the house. She keeps a garden outside. She picks all of our weeds. We have a lot of our landscaping is wild. We have a lot of weeds and it’s been raining a lot. Yeah. And but you know, it’s like she goes hiking with other sober people and it’s like great. I would have never if you would have walked in this house and said, “What should I do?” I don’t think I would have been like you should go on hikes, right? You know, like even though I know that’s a healthy thing to do, it’s not the first thing I would say to somebody. But, you know, just giving them the opportunity and access and being in Colorado like there there is so much too and and I’m learning more about Denver Artist and Recovery and the work that they do and that there’s, you know, all of these organizations that are focused around sober pickle ball, sober rock climbing, sober painting, you know, and not that I think that everyone in recovery needs to only surround themsel with other people in recovery. I mean it can be a great thing but um you know to have those resources especially in those earlier stages like the you know kind of six months a year in and be able to kind of build a life like that I think is amazing too. Yeah. And so just helping I’m trying to learn more about it so that I can help them learn more about it and give access like core power does a free 11 a.m. class every Sunday for the community and there’s a core power yoga down the street from us. So, it’s like go to that. You know, there’s just like all these things out there that are healthy, maybe not sober, but they are sober. Yoga is generally sober. Um, you know, that might not be the the main intention of it, but just to connect into and giving people access to those resources and understanding what they are. It’s so interesting you say that because the I was in um where was I? 20 end of 23 right before Christmas. We were in I was in New York City with my wife and I started to see these bars pop up, man. I’m like looking around. I’m like, so with sober curious bars, yeah, it’s a thing cuz what we’re learning now through like the Hubbermans of the world, it’s like, yeah, maybe even one drink a week might be too much. Yeah. You know, and it’s it’s not that I have a problem with it. It’s just it messes up with my sleep, you know, my sleep hygiene goes down the road, my nutrition, certainly the sugar. And so I’m just learning from like a costbenefit analysis, like I don’t want to do that, but I want to be in community. Yeah. And so offering people an opportunity to find themselves in those communities, sober or otherwise. I like to involve myself in those communities, too. And a lot of the communities we’re talking about, like hiking, jiu-jitsu, um, you know, art, a lot of these things, it’s really difficult to like have a drink in your hand while you’re doing it. Yeah. You know what I’m saying? And you’re not hiking with me if you have a drink in your hand. You know, it’s going to be a tough hike. Yeah. So, I I just I love that. And I think it’s actually taking shape for a lot of people, folks who haven’t even struggled with it whatsoever. Yeah. I think that that’s been a beautiful thing, too, is just to see like greater acceptance. And I don’t know, I don’t have like sources on this, but it from what I understand, Gen Z has done like a great job with finding other resources and opportunities than drinking. And I just I read like the liquor and bar industry complaining about Gen Z because they’re not drinking as much. It’s pretty funny. Um, but you know, it’s like it’s just that it’s been embedded into what we do so much too, you know, and that makes it so much more difficult, but like it doesn’t have to be. Yeah. like you can be sober and have fun. Y like it’s a thing, you know, like I do things all the time that I’m sober and have fun. And so, you know, just kind of getting people used to that idea, too. I love that, man. It’s a it’s a really cool thing you guys are doing and really unique. I appreciate that. And I think the business model is is exactly what Colorado needs right now. It seems like it and it’s been wellreceived. uh had conversations really early that I said I’m going to do it my way, which is this wellness-based approach. If that doesn’t work, that’s okay. I’m going to turn this into an Airbnb. The option wasn’t to stick six people in a room and rotate them through. And I think that that’s needed sometimes in like early stages and certain people like that’s that’s needed. It just wasn’t my understanding or expertise either. Um luckily it worked. It’s working. I don’t say it works. That’s scary to say. One day at a time. Yeah. One day at a time, you know, but um you know, we got really lucky having like Denver Women’s Recovery down the street and um just some wonderful people. And in this space, it’s I cold called like I I made a list of 300 different in Colorado, I found 300 different rehabs and I just started cold calling them and I was like, “Oh, this is going to suck.” I’ve done cold calling before and I’m expecting them to be like, “Here’s the email, like general email. Send your information.” And I’d be like, “Well, you know, my name’s Jared and I’m opening a sober living. Who do I talk to?” They’d be like, “You got to talk to Janet. Janet, get over here.” And Janet be like, “Oh, hey, tell me about your sober living and can I come visit and do you want to come visit us?” It’s like this is not like any business I’ve been a part of that everyone’s been like just so welcoming and so open to supporting and it’s just like it’s it’s amazing. You know, the Colorado provider community is really unique. Yeah. Um you know, I’ve been in Northern Arizona. I’ve worked with people in Southern California and there’s just horrific things going on in our industry. But Colorado is one of the places, at least in my experience of nearly 20 years of doing this, they have a lot of integrity about the way that they work together. And it’s really nice and comforting. Yeah, it really is. Like I went to a a dinner last night randomly. A girl I went to preschool with. No way. Now works at a re uh rehab out in Asheville, North Carolina. Okay. And she was in town putting on a dinner. I haven’t seen her since I mean 20 years since I’ve seen her. Um but you know, I walk in and there’s like four or five people that I know. Wow. Um Nick who works with you guys is in there, you know, and I see Nick. I love Nick. I give him a hug. you know, he’s amazing. Um, and everyone’s just like so happy and open and it’s just not what I expected. You know, it felt so quickly a part of the community and I felt like an outsider at first. I’m new. I don’t really know what’s going on and it scared me and there’s a lot of terminology. Yeah. You know, everyone’s like IOP, PHP like writing them down in my notebook. I’m like Google this later, you know, and then I just learned to be like what’s that, you know, and ask because no one when I did say like what’s that, people be like oh of course like let me make sure like you understand that not like oh you don’t get that you know. Um and yeah again it’s it’s community you know and I’m with I’m with you. It’s like at the basis of everything like having a supportive community whatever that looks like to you is in my opinion like the most important thing that you can do. It’s it’s a first step. AA provides that so well out of the gate. You know, you can walk in any room in any city, basically any country in the world, and you can have that opportunity and then someone will walk right up to you and introduce them. Absolutely. Hey, how are you? I’m Jim. Yeah. Yeah. And at first it’s like shocking. Yeah. Like what do I do with this? Yeah. you know, but to be able to to provide that other places, too. Like we have a calendar at the house. Like the most important thing on the calendar is when somebody new moves in. Oh, yeah. You know, it’s not the program you’re supposed to go to or this or that. It’s like knowing someone new is going to be there that day and like prep for them and give that to them. And what I’ve seen happen there, we had we had a big transition. And as soon as our house manager went to the hospital, we went down to zero people for a period of time and then by the time she came back, we had an interim house management. Um, we had six or seven people in the house and I told them that Lindsay was coming back and it was her birthday and they got her flowers and I took her flowers to the hospital and she had been really nervous about coming back to the house. like they all know each other and I’m not a part of the community and you know I assure her I’m like this is your house more than it’s even my house this is this is yours like you’ve done such a great job and it’s yours but I take her these flowers and she got like really emotional and she said this is the first birthday gift I’ve gotten since I was 16 years old I didn’t know how to respond to that like it broke my heart and made me happy but she came back into the house and it just like such an easier experience because like this community had embraced someone that they didn’t know yet. All they knew is that I cared about this person. Mhm. I care about them. She’s here to help them. They’re going to embrace it. And it’s made all of the difference in her recovery, too. And like coming into things and just to be able to see stuff like that is just Yeah. the community building, just people coming together and the common purpose. I guess it’s it’s sobbriety you want to call that, but it’s support. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it’s it’s more than that. Yeah. Wellness and support. I think most people can get down with that. Yeah. I think if you asked if you pulled 100 people, they could you use some wellness and some support? I’d be shocked if it’s not in the 90th percentile. Yeah. I mean, who’s going to say no to that? No. I No support here. Yeah. Yeah. I’m independent. Yeah. I’m I’m good. I’m a lone wolf. That’s usually, you know, that’s what it’s so funny, man. And it’s interesting what trauma and mental health issues can make you believe. Yeah. You know, because when I got into recovery, I was like, I don’t like people. And I was actually diagnosed with antisocial personality. Me. Yeah. And a social what? You know, but we get in these moments and and you and I have this opportunity in the provider community here in Colorado gets this opportunity to just walk with people side by side as we climb out of the hole. Yeah. Together. And they get to see it, you know. And I had a friend in college. I remember a conversation. and they were going through a breakup and she was like, “You know, I feel crazy because I just want to drive by his house and see if anyone else is there.” I’m like, “It’s not crazy to think that.” I’m like, “If you do that, you’re you’re starting to like skirt a line.” Yeah. And she’s like, “Really? Like you think that? Like you you feel that way, you know?” And it’s like, “Yeah, like we all do.” And like just the relief that comes to a person when they get to understand that they’re not alone. Yeah. And and it’s same thing like we get to walk side by side. I’m gonna be honest with you about how I feel. And I tell everybody in the house like if I I go to our house meeting about once a month and and I’m always really honest like what’s the worst part of your day? I’m like I’m going to go first and I’m going to tell you the worst part of my week or my day and be really honest and just being able to help people understand again this idea of s that we all live these really intricate lives and there’s good to that and there’s bad to that. And in community we get to process that together. We get to lean on each other. we get to learn from each other and this just like such a valuable asset to have that I don’t want to say it’s underappreciated now because I feel like there’s become a lot more appreciation for it especially over like the last 10 years and especially since co Yeah. Yeah. Um, but you know, still a long way to go and seeing people just now starting to accept the fact that like I I do need that for me and for my family and for anyone’s life that I touch. The more support I have, the more support I can give and building that into their lives is so important. Yeah. Really unique, really cool model you have. For the viewers, websites, how do we find you? How do we get a hold of you? Yeah. Um website we you asked me the question before is it sober living and god it’s hard for me I want to call it integrative living now because I’m learning what it is website saunders soberliving.com okay um sint integrativeliving is still open as a domain and maybe I’ll shift to that it’s pretty long just don’t put peaks do it won’t work um but saundersliving.com um and then information’s on there okay um I don’t have we don’t have social media I don’t have social media as like a person Um, yeah, it’s just been a great shift. My best friend doesn’t do social media. And I’m like, you’re a lucky man. Yeah, I have a Facebook. I don’t use it. I don’t know if you’re like allowed to get rid of Facebook at this point. Like everything’s so connected to it that I don’t really school. Um, but yeah, Saunders Sober Living and then archipeloded.com. Um, you know, I think both great resources for people and not just in sobriety. Again, like we said, it’s just people that are trying to like trying to find a different way to live, trying to find a better way to live. And I think it’s it’s amazing. Um, archipelago is downtown by the aquarium. Oh, cool. Yeah. Okay. And so, uh, we have a digital billboard on the highway that only I know how to control that 250,000 people drive by a day. Really? Yeah. It’s amazing. That’s cool. Yeah. So, like I put ridiculous things on there. The Denver Post called me one day and they’re like, “Please tell us what’s going on.” They’re like, “None of this makes any sense.” Like I’m like putting stuff up about like Zack Morris and Save by the Bell and but uh yeah, so that space is downtown and then um our sober living is like in the Cherry Creek, Virginia Village area. Looking to open up another one over there in the same area. Yeah, in the same area. Yeah, it just I got really lucky that we put it where it was, but I can reverse engineer that luck to to get it again now that I know what it is. Um so going to try and stay there for the next one and then looking to open a men’s house sooner than later, too. Beautiful. Um, and yeah, and you know, besides that, I tell everybody like we just want to be a resource for wellness and anything that we can be, whether it’s you’re looking for sober living or you just think that there’s something that I know or we know that could be helpful, like reach out. Yeah. Like you said, we’re all in this together and we all want to be supportive of each other, make the world a better place. Um, partially selfishly so I feel good. Something that makes me feel good. It’s my cold plunge is also like feeling like I was of service in some capacity. Um, so yeah, open open to it all. Yeah, thank you so much, Jared. Yeah, thank you. This was I like I said, I came in feeling undeserving and and nervous and and there’s always going to be an element of that and um but this is wonderful and I really appreciate it a time. Yeah, thank you so much and please get on those websites. Uh I think you’re going to be blown away. you know, the Saunders Sober Living website as well as archipelago. Just really unique modalities, unique service lines here in Denver to the greater Colorado area. Appreciate you. Until next time, my beautiful people. Peace.

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Episode 149Stillness Speaks: Listening to the Body with Dr. Ron SchwenklerWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/YDcAh1rCxxAListen NowDescriptionIn this episode of Finding Peaks, Chris Burns is joined by Dr. Ron Schwenkler, Clinical Director at Mind Spa in Denver, to share in an invaluable conversation surrounding trauma and the quiet ways it can control life. From looking into different cutting-edge models to taking a moment to focus on the importance of individualized care, Dr. Ron and Chris engage in a powerful conversation that you will not want to miss. Thank you, Dr. Ron, for sharing your expertise and insights, as well as reexamining how we not only define trauma but also how we can treat it. For more information on Dr. Ron or Mind Spa, visit mindspadenver.com.

Talking Points1. Introduction to the Show 2. Giving flowers to Dr. Ron and Mind Spa 3. Get to know Mind Spa 4. Dr. Ron on trauma 5. Resourcing 6. Exploring different modalities 7. What is a memory 8. Getting present 9. 12-step and trauma 10. Be the mamal 11. Dr. Ron’s personal experience 12. Treating concussions 13. Looking into Ketamine 14. Failing medications 15. How do people recover 16. Getting still in your body 17. Fitness and movement in treatment 18. Listening to your body 19. mindspadenver.com 20. Final thoughts Quotes

““It’s not about what you are going to stop, it’s what you are going to start.”” – Dr. Ron Schwenkler

Episode Transcripts

Episode -149- TranscriptsYeah. But when we are leaning parasympathetically, then we can approach that which we’ve been avoiding forever much more gracefully, with more courage, with more fortitude. Yeah. You know, giving this thing back, being of service does something with purpose for people early in recovery. That’s pretty astonishing. At least it did for me. I was like, well, [ __ ] if I could be a sponsor, you’re calling me. You need me. Now I’m need, valued, seen, heard in a place that I never thought was possible. No matter what memory or thing you think of, that’s not powerful enough to change reality. And that that is a very liberating concept. Yeah.
Hey everybody and welcome to another amazing and exciting episode of Finding Peaks. yours truly, President and founder Chris Burns. Really grateful today to be joined by a colleague and a good friend, Dr. Ron Schwinkler. Grateful to have you here, sir. So good to be here. Thank you so much for having me. Absolutely. Ron is the uh clinical director over at Mindpa as well as a trauma psychologist doing a lot of cutting edge things over at Mindpa. But before we get into that, I just want to talk to the viewers a little bit about uh the relationship we have with Mindpa. Um, we have a lot of folks in our inpatient setting that are near and dear to our hearts. We get them referred out to the appropriate places. Denver Mindpa is one of our community partners. And I just happen to be doing something that I do often. About 6 weeks ago, I I have coffee with alumni. It’s one of the greatest joys in my life, in my career. And I’m walking around with a friend of mine. We’re having a cup of coffee and we’re at the park over by uh the trail head program that we have over there. And he starts to tell me about this guy named Ron that he’s working with. And I’m like, “Oh, yeah. Cool stuff, man. Outpatients going well.” He’s like, “No, this is really different.” Um, and I saw in that moment that not only was he seen, valued, and heard at peaks recovery, but the next step was just the same. And it meant the absolute world to me to know that an outpatient provider like yourself and Denver Mindpar showing up in the community for people like my friends who went through peaks. So, before we get going, I just want to thank you for the work that you guys do. What we’re going to learn today is what they do at Denver Mind Spa is absolutely extraordinary, cutting edge, and more than anything puts the client first. So, thank you so much, Ron, for what you do professionally, personally, and most certainly in the community. Sir, it’s awesome. Yes, sir. Absolutely. So, we want to talk a little bit today. I want to start out talking a little bit about how did Denver Mind Spa come to be? Um, I know there’s been some iterations of it. You have some partners. Sam is We’ve had Sam on the show before, but how did you guys develop Denver Mind Spa? Uh Sam and I met I was doing a a keynote presentation for Comeback Yoga and he was in the audience and I was up on stage and you know it’s like our eyes met and like it was love at first sight. It was like he was very very excited about some of the stuff I was talking about in my conceptualization of trauma, you know, um that incorporates the mind, the brain, the nervous system and the body, right? um and he approached me and we just started the conversation and one of my um passions is this idea idea of layered intervention and so that’s how I do trauma processing is we do layers of resourcing and you know that comes off an idea um one it comes from a trauma theory called comprehensive resource model that focuses on resourcing as the primary rather than just the thing that you do when someone is abreacting or struggling, right? And so we use resourcing to optimize a person so they can approach the intolerable affect or the trauma or you know whatever whatever you want to call it. And so as I was talking about this layered intervention, you know, it’s like this idea of like well trauma doesn’t happen on a singular context. Mhm. It doesn’t just happen. Trauma symptoms don’t happen at home or right they they become generalized and it infiltrates a person’s life. And so the idea is it’s like well if that’s how trauma behaves that’s how we should behave and we should be providing interventions on a multicontextual manner. Mhm. Um, and you know, he, you know, that conversation just blossomed so naturally between us and you know, Sam has he’s so passionate, you know, um, and so he just he just took off and ran and kept putting the pieces together and and then we hooked it all up. I love that. I I you may be one of the first people, at least Sam and you, one of the first people you talk about kind of this multi-layered approach. How do you begin to you know because the idea what I’ve experienced a lot in my life before I got to seatic experiencing therapy which is resourced along the way as we go in with our therapist we sit down they ask us a few questions we get into this thing that really hurts and we’re not resourced whatsoever but on the back end they say okay tonight you could probably do some journaling you know get into your breath work make sure you do your meditation connect with your peers how do you begin to to do that in that multi-layered process throughout the course of care instead of kind of on on the back end. That’s a big that’s a big question. So I mean I think part of it is just our presuppositions like philosophically resourcing is not an add-on. It is a fundamental part to processing. So when we’re processing like some people look at well we want to process the trauma to optimize and it’s like well sure but but why not optimize what we can to help processing right? And so it’s we can get more into how that unfolds, but it’s um we just see it as a fundamental part. And so some people come into the you know uh to meet us and they know they want TMS or they know they want ketamine and then we you know we we meet them where they’re at and um we make sure that all the eyes are dotted and tees are crossed. They’re meeting with the psychiatrist to fulfill those interventions that it’s a legitimate fit, right? Other people just know that they have problems and they don’t know where to begin and they often find their way to me or get referred to me from our psychiatrist or ketamine nurse. Um, and we we start that process out. And you know, when we’re going to do a piece of trauma work, it’s always resourcing first, right? Whether that’s just a base layer of appraisal skills, which is like notice what’s happening in reality around us right now, or breathing techniques, visualization techniques, you know, attachment um techniques to allow them to feel physiologically safe in the room, which is different than psychologically, right? Because when we are when we’re leaning parasympathetically and we’re physiologically safe and we don’t I don’t really like that word because there’s so much stuff connected to safety. Yeah. But when we are leaning parasympathetically then we can approach that which we’ve been avoiding forever much more gracefully with more courage with more fortitude. Yeah. To hold hands with the trauma. Like if people aren’t holding hands and getting in touch with the intolerable affect that moment in the trauma when they couldn’t bear it and that’s what set off all the survival mechanisms if you ain’t getting to that point you’re you’re kind of doing trauma work. Yeah. But you got to get at that point and it’s very paradoxical because the only way to really get there fully we believe is through resourcing first. Yeah. You can’t just ask someone, “Hey, would you please consider the worst possible thing that’s ever happened in your life?” Yeah. And let’s chat about it. Like, no. That goes like, but I I love what you said there because I hadn’t had any of that experience in my recovery till about 10 years in. I had done a lot of talk therapy, some EMDR, and there’s some resourcing that goes on with a good EMDR therapist for sure. A good a good EMDR therapist. Otherwise, I just hook you up and get going. Um but something that was so brilliant and I was like why the [ ] why are we doing this? I sat down with Paulie Feedler. She’s right down the road here and she’s been doing um sematic experiencing therapy for about 30 years. And I remember I was like she’s like all right well let’s do this. And I’m like all right I’m ready. And she’s like I just want you to close your eyes. There you go. Sit back. I want you to feel the earth energy coming up under your feet. I want you to open up your top chakra. Let that life energy in. And I’m sitting there thinking this is dumb. This is dumb. And then before you know it, I’m like, cool as a cucumber, right? She’s like, how do you feel? I’m like, Paulie, I don’t know if we’re going to be able to do any trauma work because I actually feel really good. So, that’s a great point. Sometimes when that happens, you know, because it’s it’s almost like a titration issue, right? People live their lives in such a stress vortex at best, trauma vortex at worst that even when they start allowing their body to remember this is what it’s like to rest, to be neutral, to be well, we I’ve spent sessions just allowing that to unfold. Wow. And then they get more acquainted. They build more mastery with the breathing, with the visualization, with the app appraisal skills. I call appraisal skills. Then then once they practice that, then we can get into doing the trauma processing. Mhm. And do you resource every time, every session in one way or another? Okay. It might just be that. So I want you to notice what’s happening right around us right now in this moment in reality, right? that there’s no guns, knives, or fangs out. Yeah. Which means you’re safe, right? Which means you are secure in this moment. And no matter what memory or thing you think of, that’s not powerful enough to change reality. And that that is a very liberating concept. Yeah. Right. That like I’ll ask people, “What’s a memory?” And they’re like, “Well, it’s a representation of something that happened.” I’m like, “No, no, no.” Yes. And what actually is a memory? And it’s like we get into it. It’s just like it’s a microscopic event happening in a brain that triggers vibration, maybe electricity signaling to other neuro neurons through neuropathways that release hormones and neurotransmitters microscopically. But that will change a whole person’s life. That’s wild. And when we when that’s like very resourcing in and of itself. And so I’m talking them through that in the moment. Just like no matter what microscopic event happens in your brain, that doesn’t change that you’re sitting in that chair and there’s no threat. Now, it could be stressful, sure, but there’s no threat. And that reminder is really, really helpful. And I love how you broke it apart in two parts where there’s this psychological readiness but this physiological unreadiness or unwillingness. So I would go in I’d say no I’m ready to go but my body is just going crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s where I think you know Bessel Vandercock and Peter Lavine from Sematic Experience. I mean these these people really have driven the point home that the body keeps the score. The body bears the burden. Yeah. You know, and so we have to allow the body to remember or learn because sometimes some people trauma starts from the womb. Yeah. you know, and so we have literally it’s it’s about allowing their nervous system to recognize that we can let down our guard and step into some of these breathing techniques or visualization techniques to optimize in order to then approach the thing we’ve been avoiding. Yeah. I had a lot of It reminds me of when I started jiu-jitsu. Even in my first year, I’d have a 70-year-old on top of me beating the brakes off of me and he’s like, “Calm down, Chris. Calm down.” I’m like, “Steve, my brain’s telling me to calm down, but my body’s not doing it. My body’s in this fight orflight. It feels like it’s getting attacked.” And I’m like, “Cool off. Cool off, but it’s just not responding well.” And it it took I bet it took longer than most folks going in there for my body to finally just just settle down and and know that it’s it’s safe. Yeah. You also bring up a really good point. It’s kind of echoleian with this idea of like psychological time as well. If you can get people in the present moment in your office or at Denver Mind Spawn, be where their feet are, there’s no suffering, potentially, right? Yeah. Because that’s huge. Yeah. That’s a big thing. Yeah. Because I love what Echer Tol talks about the psychological time and if I’m in the past and I’m in the future tends to be pretty unsteady. But if I can ground in the moment and I can be here with you, Ron, I don’t have to think about what happened yesterday. I don’t have to think about what I got going on after this. I can just be in this space with you, which is really nice. Yes, I love that. And that so this this is a huge discussion because the brain is always going to optimize the nervous system and the brain are always going to optimize survival over expansion. The key element to trauma or one of the key elements to trauma is the brain is is going to prioritize the trauma memory. That’s wild. which then for survival reasons, right, this is very important, but it’s then takes us away from the present moment, right? Because we’re always wrestling with that internal system. We’re wrestling with managing the internal landscape, which then sends bottom-up messages that, well, I’ve got to be aware of all the environmental triggers and be on guard, hypervigilance, startle response, all that, you know, that I miss the present moment. So the present moment even isn’t even an option for some people that have passed a certain threshold of trauma. You got to deal with that in order to reappropriate sure the the the trauma memory and put it in its rightful place. So this idea when clinicians come in and somebody’s coming off of you know um some intense trauma, some mental health stuff, potentially some substance use, this idea of like get present, that’s not even an option for folks. I don’t even ask that. I’m like, tell me why you aren’t present because there’s a good reason why. Right? Like we we don’t want to judge trauma symptoms. Trauma symptoms are survival mechanisms. Yeah. Like like there the every every trauma symptom if we go down the PCL5 or like it’s it’s it’s not hard to see it as a survival mechanism, right? But we judge the trauma symptoms and we don’t let them teach us why they’re so important. Right? Because a person isn’t going to wake up one morning be like, you know what, I think I want to screw everything up in my life, right? And start developing this symptom, right? Which ultimately will lead to self-centeredness at best and narcissism at worst, right? Like that’s not how people work. Like they develop into the symptoms for survival reasons. Yeah. And so a great question might be, you know, what was the reason you couldn’t be present? Right. Right. That’s tell me why it’s so hard to be in the room and be still. And they’ll say things like, well, if I’m still, then something bad might happen. Like I learned very early on that I had to be on guard all the time. It’s like, that makes a lot of sense. Was there a good reason why you had to be on guard? Yeah. My dad is an alcoholic. My mom was angry all the time. And da da d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d. It’s like that’s a good reason for a kid to be on guard. Yeah. Oh, you had a you you everything you were on patrol and everything was fine and then everything wasn’t fine because there was a danger close bomb. That’s a good reason to not let down your guard. Yeah. Right. There’s all sorts of good reasons that these symptoms are there. We don’t need to judge them. We just need to be curious about it. I love that word curious and non-judgmental. You know, how do you guys feel about and this wasn’t part of the but I want to talk a little bit. Yeah. How do you guys feel about referring people to 12step? Because it comes it kind of comes into conflict a little bit with that because you carry some of that heavy stuff and we talk about it in a negative way like this is bad, I’m selfish, I’m dishonest, I do these things, but to your point, a lot of that is trauma resilience. And so, how do you navigate with folks that are checking into the 12step program? It’s been something new as of the last five or 10 years where people are like, I don’t know if I want to do that. Prior to that, it was just status quo. Yeah. How do you guys feel about folks that are struggling with alcohol or struggling with a substance doing their trauma? Do you guys refer to 12 steps? I’m a big fan of 12 steps, the traditional 12 steps. There’s over the last decade plus, there’s been kind of a Buddhist movement of 12 steps. Addiction is a different beast, right? And you know, I think a lot the coorbidity between addiction and trauma is through the roof. So, it would be folly to say, “No, you shouldn’t do 12 steps.” No, you need to get into that and you need to start and finish it, not just do five of the steps. Absolutely. Yeah, I always love that. The stat the stats are incredible, right? Like if you do the 12 steps, then you know you’re going to have a certain amount of um of sobriety. If you become what is it? If you get a sponsor, that that equation jumps like 10%. if you become a sponsor that those numbers like jump another 20%. So it’s this idea of see one do one teach one that is so important from everything from martial arts to sobriety. Yeah. I love it. Good. 12 steps are important. Yeah. I love it as well and I love it in in in compilation with um you know some really good clinical. I I think that helps support it and you know I think folks are starting to see it clearly now and I think it’s opened up more in those 12step rooms. This idea that yes, you should get a therapist. Yes, you should get a sponsor and work the steps. And I think bigger than anything with the 12step program, specifically folks who struggle with shame. Um, you know, giving this thing back, being of service does something with purpose for people early in recovery. That’s pretty astonishing. At least it did for me. I was like, well, [ ] if I could be a sponsor, you’re calling me. You need me. Now I’m need, valued, seen, heard in a place that I never thought was possible. Agreed. Yeah. I mean, I’m just such a big fan of the classic virtues as well as we, you know, the VA values in general. And I think service is just classic and modern. Yeah. And, you know, I think, you know, I think especially for men, like we want to be of service a lot. Yeah. You know, um, but certainly with addiction, it’s not just about what you’re stopping, it’s about what you’re going to start. And service is a great thing to start when you’re struggling with addiction. And that community piece is huge is absolutely huge. That’s one of our saying at Mind Spa is like be a good mammal. Like we are mammals before humans, right? Like fundamentally at our core, we are mammals. So practice, you know, what do mammals need? Community touch, right? They they they need, you know, have that direction. Yeah. Yeah. No, that’s huge. and you’re no um it’s not foreign to you trauma. You’ve walked through a a multitude of traumas yourself. I think you had a motorcycle accident. Two motorcycle accidents. Yeah. Well, how what happened? So, and this was, you know, my my unfortunate prized education experience were these traumas, right? So, I have I have two master’s degrees. Well, I have an undergraduate degree that focused on religious studies or cultural studies. some philosophy, a master’s degree in counseling education, and then I went to DU to get another master’s in clinical psychology and a doctorate in clinical psychology. You’re busy. So, we we moved from from out east to um here to go to DU in 2012. And a month before my program, I’m riding my bicycle and I got hit by a truck from behind going 65 miles an hour. Holy [ __ ] How fast were you going? You know, whatever 20, right? like whatever 16 17 but I got I got roadkilled and um I I mean there’s so many different parts right trauma memory is very succinct right there’s all these different details again for survival mechanisms evolutionary mechanisms but I ended up um I had in that one year from that to a year later I had five surgeries so I had a surgery every three months um excuse me four surgeries every three months and I was doing my first year of my doctorate program with my helmet cracked. So, with a concussion, having a surgery every three months, anesthesia stuff, um, and trying to get through this doctor program with three kids. Wow. Um, and then we were having another one on the way. And this was a year and a month later. I was on my Harley on I25. No. And I and I just finished I picked it up from the shop that morning and it was like my gangster dream bike. Oh, and it was done. No, it was done. I get on it and I ride to a motorcycle training course. It was always good to take. I’ve been riding for a long time, but and then that’s done and I get on my bike from that and I’m I get on I25 for like several minutes and I get hit by a a kid on a crotch rocket going over 100 miles an hour from behind again. Holy smokes. So I and and that accident was way worse than my first accident. So I had like first and second degree burns. My ankle was turned around 180 degrees. I spent days in the hospital. I slid over 100 feet on the interstate. I went from the right lane, flopped over to the mid the center lane. And usually on on motorcycles, it’s it’s not the first hits that kills you. It’s like it’s the the person that’s not paying attention that runs over you that gets you. And so I was just waiting to get very peacefully to die. And that was because of all the trauma work I did from the first one. So my first one I was terrified. I thought the guy when he got out of the car I remember looking at him and he reached from behind like this and I started screaming, “Don’t kill me. Don’t kill me.” Because I thought he was going to shoot me because I was on like a back road. Terrified. Totally illogical. Yeah. Trauma mind survival, right? And that I mean I just I just did so much trauma work with that first one that when the second one happened I knew exactly what was happening. Like the first thing that came to me is mother I can’t believe this is happening again. Like oh my gosh the second thing was let thy will be done. I remember saying that word that phrase and I just relaxed and I waited to get hit again and I was fine. It was one of the most peaceful experiences of my life. Wow. Because of all the trauma work that came from the first one. And then I was sliding and sliding and I wasn’t getting hit. I was just like like starfishing mothers on and stuff. Just the best. I remember the ground. I had a little brain bucket on. I didn’t even have full and I remember being like, “Well, that sounds good.” So, I tucked my made a choice in the moment to chuck my chin to so more of the helmet can take I didn’t have one mark on my face and I slid on my chest for over 100 feet on the interstate. Wow. Just because of the trauma work and being able to like be okay with life and death. So, when the next bad thing happened, I was really okay. Like, it was the test of all tests. Wow. So, I wouldn’t trade those unfortunate educations for anything except what it was really hard on my family. Yeah. Especially my oldest son. How long were you in the hospital after that? I was in the hospital for 4 days. Jeez. After that. And how long removed from the previous accident? One year and a month and then I had another surgery. So, I had ended up having six surgeries in 18 months and then a spine surgery five five or six years later. Jeez. on my neck. Did you have to fuse anything? No, we got a disc replacement. Okay. Wow. Yeah, that’s huge. That’s huge, man. How does your body feel today? Working out five times a week. Doing your thing. You got emotions lotion. Emotions lotion. You got to move it. It’s that old saying, cowboy saying, either get busy get busy living or get busy dying. Like, you know, I mean, there’s a lot that helps me. Yeah. continue to do the trauma work, continue to do the service, the the the values work. Um, but also, you know, HRT, you know, I became clinically depressed um after the first one, which was really frustrating to me because No, after the second one, I became clinically depressed because it it the the second one didn’t seem traumatic for some reason. And it was like up top cuz cuz all of the work and but man I just I was clinically depressed after that. Didn’t have any nightmares. No, you know the trauma responses were very little and the depression was severe. That’s what sunk in. And I was talking to a vet. I was doing a session and he was talking about his depression and Zoloft and I’ve you know I was on tons of different medications trying to get at this depression and he’s like dude get your blood work done and he was he’s like I got that’s that’s what changed my life is my blood work. My my testosterone was at 68. Yours was holy smokes. Wow. And so then, you know, then I started, you know, HRT, um, and just consistent blood work ever since. Um, you know, really monitoring my testosterone levels, take a couple peptides, and so yeah, I mean, I have a headache every day and my joints hurt every day, but still working out. Did you end up getting a TBI as a result of that? Yeah. And and you had concussions as well, right? Yeah. And I also played rugby in college for many years, so I’ve had a long history of concussions, but Yeah. How did you treat that? Now, I know you did the trauma work, but how did you treat the TBI and the concussion side of things? Um, at that point in time, I didn’t know about ketamine. You know, I I did a lot of psychedelics when in the 90s when, you know, I before I got into mental health. I’ve been in mental health for 29 years. So, it was just kind of grinding through and building my own relationship with the concussion. So, I would say, you know, without any medical intervention, we’re really good at diagnosing concussions, but like what do you do for concussions? Well, now we know like Hbot and ketamine can really help lower that inflammation. But you got to build a relationship with concussions and get honest about it and and like stop looking at it as the enemy rather as your brain is doing everything it can to help you survive and it’s injured and just because we’re injured that doesn’t mean we’re weak, right? People get that I feel different so that means I’m weak and people but we have to see it as an injury. like you took a hit and now the brain doesn’t work as well as it used to and so we’re gonna find workarounds but acceptance and patience is mandatory. Mhm. Like we can’t you know so many people are so upset that concussions are life changing. I’m my life is still changed from my concussions. I can’t remember names to save my life. It takes Apparently I can’t either. So, so we have to, you know, it’s like we got to stop judging it and say like this is this is my shortcomings now. This doesn’t change my character as a human being. I’m I’m still working hard with my values. But I’m different now. Yeah. It’s like that acceptance piece, too. Acceptance is everything. Whether it’s trauma, concussion, all of it. Yeah. What would you do today if somebody came into your clinic at Denver Mind Spa and they had Exactly. what happened to you happened to them. How would you have treat would you treat that differently with the modalities that you guys have today and how would that look? Yeah, I mean if I could build a a concussion treatment plan um it would be you know meeting with the therapist getting the resources like we got to get the framing of how life has changed and then um hyperbaric oxygen treatment um I think you know 1.6 six atmospheric pressures like the optimal concussion um pressure and um ketamine um to reduce inflammation. And so we do ketamine um start at very low doses, get a person feeling comfortable with it. Um and it’s an incredible anti-inflammatory. We have a nurse present the whole time. It’s IV, so if there’s any
reaction to it, we can shut the drip off and and get the person, you know, resourced and stabilized. But it’s it’s pretty amazing intervention, you guys. Hyperbaric chamber, ketamine, Denver Mind Spa. I haven’t I think um All Points North has a hyperaric chamber, but it’s not as cool as your guys’. Yeah, we got a little UFO. That one is sweet. So cool. And it goes back to where we started, right? that layered intervention. It’s like it’s it’s not just about the trauma work. It’s not just about the change of life work. It’s not just about the ketamine or the oxygen. It’s all of them happening at at a similar time frame. Yeah. I love that like multi-pronged approach that you guys carry out there. I love that you carry it out by way of the just providing astonishing client care. You know, insurance doesn’t pay for HBOT, you know, but you guys have the cutting edge HBOT because, you know, it informs healing for the people that you get to serve. That’s what I like a lot about you guys is you have these extra It’s like it’s like us with the movement team and the hikes and all this stuff like insurance wouldn’t pay for that for a second, but it’s like there’s these quality of life and connecting components that can really help serve people and I think you guys do that really really extraordinarily. It’s really cool. Yes, man. Yeah, you guys are doing a great job, too. And it’s just Yeah, we can do a whole other segment on insurance. Yeah, insurance. How how it is organized crime. I met some It is organized, right? We Why do we want to keep people sick and not pay the people getting people better for all their efforts, right? Privatize the profit. We socialize the expense. Enough said. Yeah. Is there any something I’ve been running into lately as we begin to start to conceptualize, you know, we have Triricare, Tri West coming on, you know, we refer out for ketamine right now, but one of the things that’s kind of buted up against kind of the substance use side of things is, or maybe I should ask you, are there a lot of contraindications for folks who have struggled with substances as it pertains to the modality of especially, you know, I mean, I I am not an expert in that realm. Um, I have heard incredible stories about how ketamine has helped curb a lot of addiction processes as well as Hiaawasa and some of these other Ibagane obviously. Um, but there are some interventions that just they just are amazing about what they do with that desire, that addiction mindset and it gets people into wise mind real quickly. Mhm. Um I think it’s you know um what’s the what’s the phrase? You know discernment is the better part of valor. So like you’ll know let’s be really thoughtful about it. Let’s be really thoughtful about your addiction process. And if you know this could be a good idea. Um let’s do the research. like people like there’s no excuse not to know anymore with with the advent of AI and even before that there wasn’t an excuse because everything was searchable but now it’s even easier to to understand the scientific data right like all you got to do is type in the right question and it’s like you get footnotes and everything so people need to educate themselves yeah and and feel good about it while working with the right professional yeah I love your approach on that even though you may not be an expert on the substance use side of things the outcome comes for substance use folks for traditional models of therapy are abysmal. And so I’m a big a big fan. Now maybe in my first, you know, six months of recovery at 22, ketamine might not have been a thing, but it could have alleviated a lot of the symptomology that’s wrapped around kind of this substance use and mental health process. And so I love getting curious, being open-minded, getting to know our clients, but certainly not throwing the baby out with the bath water. Not. No, I mean there’s so I mean literally when I hear when I say I have heard miracle stories and more miracle stories than than I did ketamine and it screwed my whole life up. Like I’ve actually never heard that story. I haven’t heard that. Yeah. But like I mean it’s just so important and we you know the psychedelic conference was just last week here in Denver. spent a week there and it’s like you know I have I spoke to firefighters, professional hockey players, professional football players, warriors, you know, dude from special forces in the United Kingdom to you know team guys here and it’s like literally miracles happening because of you know us being able to think outside the box and allow the psychedelic movement to get some legs. Yeah, I agree with you wholeheartedly. We went and sponsored a a dinner up there where Dr. There’s a lot of doctors. Um I’m forgetting her name, but she put on um a wonderful dinner and these people that are coming up and speaking life into these modalities are brilliant. They’re doctors. A lot of anesthesiologists are getting into this thing with the ibagane and things like that. And I was just blown away. And to your point, I think we get it misconstrued with like a khole in addiction and this ketamine infusion therapy. Well said. Yeah. Perfect. And we get we get mired in that. And so did I. And I had never done any of the ketamine on the outside, but I’d be like, “Oh, that’s bad, you know, and it’s not good or bad.” And then there’s some some hard stories where it was used as chemical restraints and that, you know, was tragic, but it’s like, you know, I’ve never said this before, but there’s hard stories in the birthing process. That doesn’t mean we stop having babies, right? Like moms and and and children perish just in the natural order of things. Like it’s tragic, but we we don’t want to let the tragedy That’s the negative bias, right? we over prioritize the negative than what’s happening in reality around us. Um and certainly we need the science to back all of it up. Yeah. Um but the ancients have been doing it for a long time with zero science. Yeah. And it’s been working fine with very little like mental unwwellness at the same time. I love that too. And being able to explore that with individuals. I see folks all the time, Ron, that are their 10th treatment in it’s the same kind of treatment and you know there’s treatment centers in our environment in the United States that you actually have to have failed five treatment programs to get into because it’s the real behavior modification and they weaponize your mind around that. Yeah. It’s like holy smoke that’s insane, right? That’s so that’s saying like you know I mean it’s almost like they’re facilitating the rock bottom which sometimes is really important but like you need to keep failing right so it’s not just like which will will ultimately drive a person towards I am weak and broken and insurance works the same way like in order to get TMS coverage you need to have five or three failed medications and it’s like right so what happens after a person there’s two thing two major things that happen when people start failing medications. One is the next medication doesn’t work as effectively statistically as the first and the third works worse than the second. So that’s that came out of the stars research. I think it’s called the stars research paper or whatever. But also they just say man if these medications aren’t working for me I must be really broken. That’s the second big thing that happens, right? And so the medication chemically is not as effective and people start very quickly leaning towards there must be something really wrong with me if these interventions aren’t working. Yeah. And like that’s that’s bad. Shame on shame. Yeah. It’s terrible. And and what I’ve realized, and I’m not a doctor by any means, but watching folks titrate on and off of these SSRI, okay, Prozac didn’t work. Here comes Alex Pro. try this to watch that individual try and sit in a group process when they’re just like feeling so unwell, you know, those things are pretty hard on your body. Yeah. And then, you know, I mean, I get it, right? But, you know, psychiatrists don’t like it when I say this, but it’s it is educated dart throwing. It is like there’s there’s a certain symptom criteria and that leans a person towards a decision-making model to suggest this medication or that. Then let’s see how that goes for a while for a month or two is you know that’s often said to people and if not then we’ll change it up. Yeah. That’s like it can take months to get off medication or a month month to get on. Well and now by this point they’re in their IOP program. 60 days in you don’t have that much time. Like what are we doing? 60 days seems like a long time. It’s not a long time when it comes to trying medications. It’s like why not just approve TMS right off the bat? I know. And see if we can make the progress because FDA approval on clinical depression, severe major depressive disorder, severe recurrent, right? Why don’t we just try that first? Or treatment resistant, whatever. Treatment resistant. Yeah, that’s that’s what that points towards. Why don’t we just try it first? I know, right? Then we get to protect their character. Like maybe I’m not weak. This this intervention really helped out. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe we get to protect some part of their biology where they don’t have to go up and down on these different medications. Yeah. I mean, that would be that would be not being in the business for repeat business. Yeah. Well, yeah. We’re on we’re on the path. You know, it’s really really difficult to work with those folks sometimes, but I’m grateful to have the opportunity to introduce them to, you know, potentially if they’ve come from another treatment program. Sometimes we get that where they’re coming from another treatment program. They have a few failed attempts already. We can get them right in the chair. you know, and within moments they’re they feel like they have some agency back. Yes. You know, which is huge to your point because you guys are doing the research and seeing what they did before and using that instead of that God complex or that ego that often comes to be like, well, no, let’s just try this one more time. It’s like, well, no, let’s not. You guys are doing a great job. Exactly. I used to do that as well. We first opened, man. People would be like, I worked the steps. I don’t feel well. I said, which one? Which one? just stop by. It’s just like when needs aren’t met, it’s really difficult to be here with you. You know, it’s very difficult to engage in a group process. Not to mention, it’s a room full of strangers. I’m supposed to come in and with all my trauma wave my trust wand around. Yeah. You know, it’s not smart. That’s poor boundaries. Exactly. Yeah. So, talking a bit about the recovery side of things, how do people recover? Wow. What is the what what’s happening for the individual as they recover? What are we talking about TBI just from trauma or addiction or what do we let’s do TBI and trauma? Yeah.
I think it’s I think in this way it is similar to addiction, right? It’s not about what you’re going to stop, it’s about what you’re going to start. So that’s a huge part of recovery is like we got to figure out what are we going to start? And so certainly we need to know what the traumas are. What what event caused the the head injury? What event caused the psychological damage or injury? Certainly we need to build skills, right? Um and everything from DBT skills, dialectical behavioral therapy, right? Mindfulness skills, interpersonal effectiveness, distress tolerance and emotional regulation. like those skills like everyone would be a better human being if they just concentrated on those like developing more of those four right so DBT is great but also appraisal skills right like we are not on like people are generally honest people I think people try to be honest no matter what demons they’re fighting with but we’re not our mind is not very honest our mind is brilliant beautiful treacherous silly and stupid and it happens like those five characters can happen in a couple moments of each other, right? And so we misappraise, right? We put things in the wrong category. So a big skill is very simply put, good is good, neutral is neutral, bad is bad, right? Bad is broken up into two categories. Stress and threat. Okay. What’s threat? Well, guns, knives, and fangs. Like if that like we should approach life even stress, but there are some things we should avoid. Guns, knives, and fangs. Like when that that’s happening, you’re in a threat situation. Your nervous system will optimize to increase survival potential and you’ll deal with it one way or the other. If it doesn’t fit into that very slim category, it doesn’t matter how it feels. It’s a stress. Yeah. But the problem is is people take things from a neutral category or a good category and put it in to the bad category. For instance, just sit still. Don’t move for five minutes, two minutes. And people that have unresolved trauma will like not oftenimes will not like that. They don’t want to be still like still means danger. Yeah. Okay. So that’s stillness neutral is now a stress. People that have broken hearts, right? Love is dangerous. I’ll stay out of relationships. Well, now we’re putting love into a stress and and threat category, right? That’s not true. It’s like, no, that relationship didn’t serve you and was hard, but that doesn’t make love bad. Yeah. It it makes all sorts of other things complicated, but love is not bad. Love heals. Love organizes, right? Yeah. And so we have to get really good at putting things in the right category and that’s called appraisal skills. And I developed that basically through the the Buddhist eight-fold path. It’s like there’s a lot there’s volumes written on the eight-fold path and it’s like we got to simplify it. So it’s like this is what we want to stay present to major skills, right? This allows us to build a better relationship with ourselves because we’re making good choices. Like oh no, I can sit here and have a cup of tea and know that nothing bad is going to happen. That’s neutral. That’s wellness. And I can celebrate goodness, right? I don’t always have to prioritize the negative bias. Yeah. Right. And and the the managing of threat and stress, but these are the habits that we we create. Yeah. So with DBT with appraisal skills certainly understanding and doing good trauma work on the process and then it’s it’s I’m a behaviorist so it’s like you got to do things different like when you say like what’s the treatment plan it’s like do things different there’s no way around it you have to stand next to your trauma you have to learn stuff and you got to do things different there’s there’s no way around it if you’re interested in change then you have to do those three things. Yeah. Right. I love that appraisal. I don’t think I’d ever heard that before. Yeah. I’ I’ve been developing it over the last couple years. It’s so simple. Yeah. It it really is. And I’ve been finding myself lately, almost 17 years in recovery, I’m like, it’s neither good or bad. Yeah. You know, this isn’t good or bad. And I think we we we don’t celebrate the importance of neutrality enough, right? Like, so how many stress hormones do we have? Like a couple dozen. like the negative to to optimize survival potential. Our nervous system has been evolving or been created whichever one you want over hundreds of millions of years. We’re really good at survival. We have a lot of stress hormones to optimize the survival situation. Dopamine currency of the brain says Andrew Huberman. I love that. Right. And and it’s like that’s easy too like you know something good happens. Ah this we feel excited. It’s easy. Neutrality we got to work towards. Even when you say it, I’m like, I don’t know, Ron. Yeah. Our wellness in calm light. Like especially with all the tech distractions that we have. We are not spending time sitting quietly and just enjoying that wellness. We don’t spend enough time doing that. So we get that through formal meditation but also just sitting quietly and stilling your body, right? Got to work at that. That takes effort. Dopamine and stress don’t take much effort. That’s easy. Yeah. I was trying to think when you said that. When’s the last time I just sat neutral? Now I sat and meditate. I just sat and do breath work. But just sit and be. Don’t move your body. Yo, you know, don’t move your body for five minutes. Like not one itch. I want to try that. Right. And so that brings us to there’s so many interventions, right? Like there’s the traditional outpatient, interventional psychiatry, ketamine, TMS, oxygen, good psychotherapy, the psychedelic movement, right? But what about like traditional meditation? What about fasting? Right? What about sitting in a pitch black room, which I haven’t done yet, but I really want to do it for days. Like that’s like you know this is this is where visions were created from the ancients was just in certainly they had psychedelics but like fasting being still being quiet being in a circle and not being able to move for four days and just being in nature like great insights and visions have been have come from that space. Yeah. And to your point, it’s we’ve our model has gotten so far away from that very very simple truth. Yeah. And it is so simple, but it seems so like contextually very difficult to find. Yeah. Yeah. Go spend 24 or 48 hours in the woods alone where you feel like you’re wrestling with grizzly bears all night, but really it’s just squirrels in the leaves and like watch where your mind goes. Like it’s not what you think. You would you like you’re part of the food chain, but really it’s just squirrels. But in your mind, brilliant, beautiful, treacherous, silly, and stupid. Your mind takes it to all sorts of places and we can’t stand it. It’s so hard, but like that’s where all the beauty is. Well, not all the beauty, but that’s where so much beauty can come from. Yeah. And again, creating a relationship with self as well as the world. Yeah. I love that. It’s so funny. I I do that. Well, when I’m hiking in the middle of the night or like 4:00 a.m. and my wife’s like, “There’s a bear.” I’m like, “It’s all part of the process, baby. This is all right. Let’s go. Let’s go.” She’s like, “No, no, no.” I’m like, “You can’t f focus on that. You got to be where the feet are and we got to go cuz if they want us, they’re going to get us, you know.” But that’s a that’s a very very uh interesting point you make there. Something that I kind of want to wrap a a bow around um this conversation with is like how does fitness and movement because that’s another thing where when we’re doing our authorizations through insurance and they’re saying, “Hey, try this medication, do this.” Um, none of it ever says move your feet. No wild. Drink water, get sun on your face, get in the cold water, do a sauna. It’s so wild. It’s it’s absolutely astonishing to me. Well, and what that what that supports is more wildness, right? So, it supports the idea of symptom reduction, right? So, we’re going to we’re going to manage the symptoms rather than practicing being the whole body person that we were meant to be. Mammals first, which means movement first. Um, so we’re not Yeah, of course we need to address the symptoms, but it’s like I I am interested in you experiencing lower symptoms, but I’m more interested in you becoming a better person, which is not just about symptom management, right? Which gets into another idea that like I have to feel a certain way to do a certain thing. And I call that the the the biggest western lie. That is the Kool-Aid that we all drink. Y I have to feel a certain way to do a certain thing. That speaks to symptom reduction. Yeah. Right. So I don’t want to go on a walk because I don’t feel like going on a walk. What if feelings have nothing to do with going on a walk in reality, but that’s our mind. Brilliant, beautiful, treacherous, silly, and stupid. What we need to do is do the certain thing and then notice how it makes us feel. Right? And that’s how we counter the lie. That’s how we push back on that part of Western culture and say, “I’m not buying into it.” Like, yeah, the medication, the interventions, the resourcing, all this stuff is good, but I got to walk. Everyone should be walking 20 minutes a day. I had one person say like, “We should be walking 20. We are made to walk 20 miles a day. I don’t walk 20 miles in like freaking two weeks.” Right. Yeah. So, it’s like, you know, but but like we should all be walking. We know that we are meant to lift. We don’t have to lift heavy things. Like I can make a great workout out of two gallons of water. Yep. Let alone when I was injured a couple cans of soup. Like if you if you focus, you can work it out. We need to be active and we have to stop waiting until we feel a certain way in order to do it. We just need the selfmastery, the discipline that will eventually lead to selfmastery just to do it. Yeah. Right. And then, you know, those are my best my favorite psychiatrists are like, well, we can look at medication, but how much activity are you getting every day? How’s your sleep? Like, well, we let’s address some of this other stuff. Right. Right. People go to sleep feeling fatigued, but that doesn’t mean they’re physiologically tired. Yeah. You’re only going to get physiologically tired if you roll. If you if you press, if you squat, if you lift, right, if you engage your body, Yeah. then sleep gets easier. Yeah. It’s interesting you say mammals move. I’m just going to remember that. Mammals move. Mammals. Well, I mean, it’s it’s a cool phrase, right? But like every animal moves, right? But like we need to move. We are not meant to be sedentary. Our mind needs that space to be sedentary as we talked about. Sure. Right. But that’s a different form of discipline and selfmastery as well. Yeah. To the point I’ve uh I’ve started taking my coffee dates out of the coffee room. I say, “Meet me at the park. I’ll have a cup of coffee and we’ll walk.” Yeah. And then we get done. And I’ve never met anybody that got done with a workout or a walk or some time in the sunshine and came back and was like, “Hey, Ron, terrible advice. Real shitty out there. I got worse.” No. Everybody’s like, “Wow, I feel a lot better.” Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good move. And so not listening to that and retraining that we just do the thing. And I think that’s kind of the way I’ve formed some of my routine is just like I don’t necessarily want to get up at 4:15. Not necessar it’s dark out, nobody’s up, birds aren’t chirping, it’s cold, but there’s this thing that I do that really provides me some agency and a foundation in my life that allows me to tackle whatever it is. It’s really, really beautiful. So I love that you guys are talking about this stuff at Denver Mind Spa. Getting people active, getting people well. you know, with the introduction of the hormone stuff. I think that was a brilliant uh point that you made there. When we’re not optimized on that side, we can’t show up for life in the way that we need to. So, I love that. Um you guys are bringing those on at MindSpot, right? Beautiful thing. Yeah. And it’s, you know, you know, a big thing in the culture, in the wellness c culture. It’s like do hard things. Yep. And then things start to change. Don’t feelings are really good when it comes to survival mechanisms. Feelings are really good when it comes to love. Like, right. And love, I’m kind of a bastard when it comes to, but like love is a long-term survival mechanism. Yeah. Right. The studies are very clear. People with loving, consistent, deep, long-term relationships live longer. Yeah. Get sick less. Right. So, like, absolutely. I hate to break it down from a reductionistic point of view, but love is a survival mechanism, too. Yeah. Um, love is really good to know like, you know, what do I want to eat today? Do I feel like Italian or you know something else? Right. But like emotions complicate things. A lot of things. Yeah. Right. Like emotions are good for some things but not for working out. Mhm. Not at all. They’re actually the opposite. Emotions come as a welcomed consequence to the hard lift or to the thing that we don’t want to do but we were able to do. Then we can feel good about it. Right. Yeah. But you can’t if you wait until you’re ready, you ain’t going to be ready. You just got to start. Yeah, I love what you’re saying, too, because I even, you know, being into a routine that’s pretty well established. I mean, it’s like on Monday, I went for a run. I was going to run three miles. I start out, I’m like, I’m gonna do a half mile. I’m going to do a half mile. No, wait. Let me get to the top of this hill because I know when I get to the top of the hill, it’ll be downhill. I’ll cruise down to downhill. I’ll come back. I’ll just do a mile. I’ll just do a mile. I got to a mile. I’m like, ah, well, the wind’s blowing right now. I think I’m going to try a mile and a half. We’ll do a mile and a half. It’s this constant conversation in this battle of just continue to do the thing. Yeah. Approach. Well, stay in contact. Stay in contact with your mind. Like, don’t just have a oneanddone conversation. It’s an ongoing experience. Yeah. Just like with people, right? So, all right. I didn’t I I three miles seems hard. I’m going to do I’m going to chunk it down. Chunking it down is great, right? Yeah. And being able to listen to your body in that as well. Totally. And on that note, there’s a lot of evidence that waking up early is really good for people, but some people just can’t do it. Like I’m 4:00 at 4. I’m like not waking up that early, right? Like the amount of pre-workout I need to get a good workout at 4:30 in the morning is not healthy, right? Like it’s like so like listen again building relationship with yourself and the environment. Like you don’t you know this stuff on you know the the people say like if you’re not wake up at 4, you’re not going to be successful, right? No success. There’s lots of ways to be successful. Find your rhythm. Yep. You know, maybe you wake up at 6:00 or 7 or 8 and maybe you’re going to bed later. Like it doesn’t matter. Exactly. Right. But like what is working and that’s the internal conversation that we have to keep in contact with. Yeah. I love that too. And more than anything, I think for me at least, and I know for you, I mean, eight hours of sleep is the goal. And so if I can get that eight hours, I’m just one of those people like the kids are like, “Dad, it’s still light out. You’re going to bed.” I’m like, “You’re going to bed, too. Everyone’s going to bed. Shut it down. I got my eye mask on. it’s over. They’re like, “Dude, you’re insane.” I’m like, “Listen, I got things to do.” You know, the winter time it’s a lot better. But, wow, Dr. Ron, I really appreciate you coming on the show today. I mean, having you on has just been a breath of fresh air. I know the viewers are going to take to this really, really well. How can people in community find you guys? Um, mindspendenver.com. Mindpadenver.com. Yep. Okay. Um, uh, Sam’s doing a great job increasing some social media stuff and you know, but I’m oldfashioned. I don’t have any social media. Just call us. Good for you. Good for you. My best friend Christian doesn’t have social media and I bet he’s got hours of his life back. You know, I think that’s so easy. It’s so easy to It’s so much dopamine, right? It’s just little little pleasures. Yeah. Um, but yeah, just call us, man. Just look us up and call us. Mindpad Denver. Mindpad Denver.com as well. They are fully in network with just about everybody. We I think yeah there’s six different insurance the big six. Okay. Five. Six. Yeah. Big six. Um yeah. So yeah, we just got to keep the conversation going. Cool. And this isn’t uh we’ve had Sam on before. We have Dr. Ron on. We’ll have do Dr. Ron and Sam on again in a few months here as we begin to kind of build out our Triricare Tri West track for folks receiving ketamine infusion and TMS. So, thank you for showing us all today how this thing is possible. In my opinion, you guys have one of the greatest things going up in Denver. Reach out to them if you’re struggling, if you’re on the fence, if you just don’t know who to call, give them a shout down there. They’ll march you in the right direction and take phenomenal care of you. Yeah. And on that note, real quick, you know that our Triricare package is unbelievable that if people can um get approved for Triricare, then we are off offering oxygen and ketamine. Oh, wow. On the house. So we really there’s there’s with all insuranceances there’s hoops to jump through but you know we want to we want to give back especially to our our service people. Absolutely. So big fan of of the military and the people that are making those sacrifices. That’s a huge deal for those TRIRA folks. I mean getting that full package for just the Triricare benefit. I hadn’t heard that before. So I’m grateful that you mentioned it. So thank you Dr. Ron. Absolutely. Thank you so much. Yeah. Until next time. Peace.

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Episode 148Hijacked Attention, Wired for Distraction: Understanding Screen Addiction TodayWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/3CR8OPvYjIoListen NowDescriptionIn this special episode of Finding Peaks, Chris Burns is joined by Peaks Recovery Centers’ Clinical Director, Dr. Marissa Prince, and Primary Therapist Alissa Carey, for a thoughtful and necessary conversation around screen addiction. In our world, screens are nearly unavoidable — from work and school, to social media and entertainment — distinguishing between healthy use and harmful dependence can be challenging. Together, our team explores where screen addiction begins, the impact of social media on our attention and wellbeing, and how we can recognize, treat, and heal from problematic screen use. Whether you’re a clinician, a loved one, or someone navigating your own relationship with screens, this episode offers insight, compassion, and hope, reminding us that we are not alone.

Talking Points1. Introduction to the Show 2. Where does screen addiction start 3. The iPads at PRC 4. Addictive vs non-addictive screen use 5. How do we approach screen addiction? 6. Replacement behaviors 7. Moderation in life and recovery 8. The distraction of social media 9. Healing from screen addiction 10. Cell phone use in society 11. The impact of screens on the brain 12. What guests’ iPads look like at Peaks 13. Defining screen addiction 14. Finding the values to live by 15. There is a difference 16. Final thoughts Quotes

“It’s not about taking away, it’s about utilizing it appropriately, so it doesn’t take away from you”.— Chris Burns, President & CEO

Episode Transcripts

Episode -148- Transcripts[Music] Hey everybody and welcome to another amazing and exciting episode of Finding Peaks. Yours truly, President and founder, Christopher Michael Burns. Grateful to be making everybody’s acquaintance today. We have a very special show on hand. We are talking about a topic that’s near and dear to a lot of people’s heart. a lot of people are walking through and experiencing both in family systems and interpersonally and that is screen addiction. Um we’re finding that there’s quite a few people that are searching that on Google and are trying to find resources and Peaks Recovery is grateful to be one of those resources today. I am joined today by Dr. Marissa Prince. Thank you for coming on the show. She is our clinical director and her co-pilot today, Alyssa Kerry, licensed addiction counselor, one of our badass therapists. Don’t bleep that out. Let’s go. Welcome to the show, ladies. Yeah, thanks for having us. How do you guys feel about screen addiction? When we talk about screen addiction, I know at peaks recovery right now when folks check into programming, they get an iPad, we curate their iPad for them, put some things on there because this is one of those things that kind of been calling lately like a primal issue, right? We can’t get rid of screens entirely. We can’t get rid of food entirely, so on and so forth. And so I guess my first question today is like how does screen addiction come up? Where does it start? Start with you Dr. Prince. Um loneliness oftent times is when we at least I would see it. Um it’s I have became so lonely and my only social outlet is behind this screen or my only sense of worth is often behind this screen. Do you find that through that loneliness is it oftentimes people that are experiencing depression, anxiety? Is it what do you think? That’s a really good question because um directionally we don’t exactly know the relationship with screen time and we don’t have really really good research on whether or not someone that is more prone to depression anxiety is more likely to use more screen time versus someone using more screen time is more likely to develop these symptoms of depression and anxiety. Um, so it’s really actually kind of hard and it’s going to show up differently in different people as far as like yeah, what’s contributing to what and like where is the causal factor and where is this starting. Mhm. Um but yeah, loneliness is a big thing and also identity is a big thing too because um these screens allow us to kind of curate and be a person on the internet in a way that maybe we’re not able to show up in our actual lives or feel like we’re not adequate enough to or have access to the way that we want to display ourselves. Um, so it it’s a very very um complex thing that we have this relationship with screens, we have this relationship with social media and the internet and the ways that we show up in those spaces. Yeah, that’s a really interesting point that you brought up. I had never thought about. But is it kind of like we we sit down with these screens that are kind of a natural part of our life. And as we go more inward here, we disconnect externally, decreasing the community and the stimulus from the community and the connection and kind of turning inward instead of extending ourselves out. And that can create the depression because at least in my experience with recovery, as long as I have a great recovering person on my right and a great recovering person on my left, I feel really good. Yeah. But when I’m isolated, disconnected, and potentially all alone, this feels begins to feel a lot better. So that that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. I think it’s good to mention too how, you know, we give people iPads when they come into Peaks, but we take away their cell phone. Um, so their cell phone is something that they’re not using throughout treatment. So they don’t have that sort of connection to the outside world in that way. And a lot of people get really distressed at first about that. Absolutely. And that’s kind of where you can kind of key in on their relationship with that device of like how distressed are they when you remove that device that’s indicative of maybe a maladaptive relationship with a cell phone. Um where some people it’s like yeah take it. Sure. Yeah. They enjoy that. I don’t want this. Yeah. Um and so they’ve actually done studies very recently uh with kids on this. Um there was a there was a study published literally last week where it’s a longitudinal study too. So it took four years for them to do this study and it just got published. So timeliness is your thing maybe by accident. But they found that um there’s a difference between screen time and like maladaptive screen time. So addictive types of screen time are different from just screen time because most Americans will spend 8 to 11 hours on a screen a day, especially depending on what they do for work. So if you’re working, you’re an accountant, you’re crunching numbers, you’re looking at a computer, that’s screen time, but it’s productive versus if you’re scrolling on TikTok for 11 hours a day, um that’s very problematic. But this study with children actually identified that addictive tracks of screen time have like kind of like three key features which are compulsive use. So that that urge to just grab the screen and have to use it. Um distress when it’s taken away. So distress when you don’t have access to it. And the third thing is escaping my mind right now because I don’t have my phone to look at it. I’m surprised you remembered those first two. That was pretty good. I’m sure it’ll come to you. It will come to me. Yeah. It reminds me of a time we had back in 20 16, we had a a death in our extended care program. And I remember um I got a call and I needed to answer that call. And from that moment forward, it must have been years, probably close to the pandemic, where if I left my phone, I could be 45 minutes away from the house and I would have to go back. It was kind of this obsessivempulsive thing because I’m like, if I miss that call, things are really, really bad and I don’t ever want to miss that call and I can’t miss any calls. So, I had this like glued to my hip. Would that be considered, do you think, because of that trauma or because of that intensity? Do you think that would be considered a maladaptive? I think it depends on how long that behavior lasts and the amount of distress it causes you. Mh. Mhm. Um cuz like with anything with any form of like behavior that is like maladaptive versus adaptive, uh realistically the first criteria for like disordered behavior is going to be that it’s causing you distress or dysfunction in like other areas of your life. So, um I can use my cell phone all the time and spend all the time plugged in. Uh, and if I’m not distressed about that, if it’s not causing me to lose access to things, if it’s not causing any sort of dysfunction in my life, I mean, that’s adaptive for me. I’m not distressed, I’m not upset, um, I’m doing great. Uh, if I’m recognizing that I’m feeling extremely sad, extremely lonely, extremely upset every time I put down the phone after I scrolled on it for way longer than I intended to use it, that’s the third thing. There it is. There it is. Um it’s it’s using it longer than you intended to and feeling unable to stop. Um so if I’m I’m falling into that cycle of like, man, I don’t want to be scrolling on my Instagram anymore and I’m like aware of that, but I’m just going to keep doing it. Like that’s problematic because now it is causing distance from me and my actual values and the way that I want to be spending my time. Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense, too. It it seems like very obscure with respect to how each individual approaches their recovery process with screen addiction as well. It’s not it’s more like process addiction where we kind of you know I was talking about it last week with Dr. Prince is like in the 12step way of things with um sex addicts anonymous or relationships anonymous they form what’s called bottomline behaviors and they each person has different bottomline behaviors and it’s different for everybody. Jumping on the phone for one person and getting on Instagram may be a lapse and for another person it might not be. And so how do we begin with the individuals that come into care kind of like defining that for them? What is a important from a foundational perspective to ensure that we have for individuals that are walking through this screen addiction? Yeah, absolutely. So we do have assessments that are uploaded into our EMR system and therapists do utilize these um when needed for screen addiction. And so that’s extremely important and it’s person specific as well. If they are saying I am spending 12 hours a day, I’m unable to feed myself. I’m unable to bathe. Um I’m unable to function as an adult going to work. Um that is where we will start to address that. Mhm. I I love that too because I think at least for me, you know, when I was checking in years ago for substance use disorder, I’m like, I have a life sentence of not using my favorite coping mechanism. Life is going to be horrid. But in this regard, and I think it’s important to mention, and we’ve kind of already mentioned it, it’s like it’s not about taking away, it’s about utilizing it appropriately so it doesn’t take away from you, which I think is a really cool way to approach recovery in general, right? It’s not good or bad, right? Well, I think the important thing to recognize too is that process addictions, especially one like this, are very different from a substance use disorder in that the way that we need to treat it is to moderate. We we can’t really do a full abst abstinence from screens and still have like a functional modern society life. I mean, I guess you could go to some island and start growing your own food and like be really offrid. Uh it’s just not really realistic for a lot of people. Um, and so I think like when I think about it, I think of it more like kind of like a binge eating disorder where it’s like a person needs food. Like they need to be able to engage with this activity, but they need to be able to moderate it. Like they need to have a healthier relationship with technology in the same way that they need a healthier relationship with food if they’re binge eating. Yeah. Um, do you guys find too, and I know we we don’t give our cell phones back until folks are out of residential level of care, but do you ever see the the reverse side of it where people come in with like a substance related disorder, you know, they put that to rest for a little bit and then all of the sudden they’re stuck on these screens or they’re engaged in relationships that are high risk. Do you guys see that a lot? Oh, absolutely. It’s replacement behaviors. So we will often when we do not have access to like you said your maladaptive coping skill, you no longer have a access to fentanyl, you will replace that behavior with pornography. You will replace that with food, anything that will give you that dopamine rush and give you comfort. And so process addictions and um substance use, we see that relationship going back and forth. Yeah, I’ve seen it a lot. Not necessarily screen addiction, but when I was in the 12step groups, you know, a lot of times people would be 25 years sober and we’re sitting there, we’re like, “Yeah, but we’re all struggling with so many other things right now.” And yeah, we got the sobriety cap on and it looks good. But I like this idea of moderation. I like this and I kind of like the idea of it with and I know I’m going to kind of take a reach here, but like even with substance use disorder, I think it’s tough to come in and tell somebody never use drugs again, right? It’s very difficult to do that. And I don’t think it’s advantageous to the recovery process, which is relational and like walking with people. Mhm. So I I love that you guys have your eyes on that. I’ve seen it. One of my questions actually is in regards to my kids, in regards to youth in general per the study, why is it that when they go into the iPad and they spend an hour on the iPad, they’re playing games with friends, why do they leave that disconnected, disgruntled, a little bit anxious, not present? So the the rebound from these screens, whether it’s an addiction or not, which I don’t they have pretty healthy habits, but even coming off of a 45m minute or an hour session on the iPad, they’re like different humans. We got to like settle before we go to the next thing because if we just go right into the next thing, it’s like, guys, what’s going on here? We got Cheetos flying everywhere. There’s, you know, it’s a mess. How does what is going on there for a young person? I think it kind of depends what they’re doing. Um, you know, there’s a difference between using games and there’s a difference between scrolling on social media. Um, the one I’m more familiar with is social media, though, just because I kind of equate it to maybe you’re sitting at your house and you’re trying to relax and every five minutes, actually, let’s shorten that. Every 30 seconds, someone different is knocking at your door and telling you their idea. That’s a great example. And they’re coming in and they’re like, “Hey, I want you to hear about this thing.” It might actually upset you because it doesn’t align with your values at all. But I actually want you to be upset about it, so you should probably get really upset. I’m actually done talking about that now, but like my friend over there, he’s actually gonna come in in a minute, too. And he’s going to tell you about something else that’s really upsetting. Um, and then 30 seconds from then, someone else is going to come in with something maybe more upsetting. Um, actually, then we’re going to show you a puppy. Jeez. That way you keep going. You’re gonna keep going. Um, because you want that puppy and I am a dopamine slot machine. So, you’re just kind of going to ring me over and over again until you get a puppy again. Mhm. But people just do that and they don’t realize they’re inviting this in. Like you’re inviting in all of these ways that like these algorithms are just deciding what’s going to upset you and what’s going to keep you paying attention longer, right? Um and it’s, you know, it’s a little bit different with games though because games is like they make them just hard enough that it’s challenging but not so easy that you ever get to really feel accomplished. Is that true? Jeez. Yeah. That’s why I don’t play games. I just don’t I just think they’re boring. That’s very interesting. We had a client might have been a couple years ago. Um it was no maybe it was a few years ago in the pandemic and obviously a lot of communities were disconnected. You know, these social things that we do um were abysmal and not opportunistic for folks. And so I remember we had a client check in um who built this whole community through these like avatar profiles and they would go in and they they never met any of the individuals personally but they would go in and they would get to curate what they look like and they all sit on a couch and they would all talk and I had never met anybody prior to that who was so convicted about that community and it sounded like at least with his presentation that there was a benefit to that as well. Is there because I think some parents, you know, maybe from my generation or the generations past, they’re like, there is no community. There’s nothing good coming out of that. Can there potentially be a good community online in those avatar settings? And can it be fruitful if used appropriately? Yes. The answer is yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um there there’s always some good. Um, but what can happen is that that is so desirable and it’s so good at the beginning and then we go down this rabbit hole of I don’t need friends in the outside world. I don’t need to communicate in real time because I have these friends online that are sitting on a couch with me. And there actually is tons of research. The um what you’re mentioning is pretty well known and I know that I knew immediately. I’m sure Alyssa knew immediately what you were talking about. Um but there’s documentaries, there’s research based on that environment and how it can really really affect um negatively. Yeah. How a person lives their lives. some people even um going into depression and anxiety when asked to leave those communities. Yeah, that’s a very it was a very interesting thing that I had never come across and but he was pretty convicted with some of those friends and they were formed really in a time of a lot of like worldly crisis and things going on and so they seemed or appeared to be pretty anchored relationships and so I guess it can be good as well. It’s one of those things that’s not necessarily good or bad. Um, but yeah, that was a question I had. U, another one with respect to what we do at Peaks. You know, you walk through our curriculum, you talk about grief and loss, we talk about some of these other big weeks that we have. How do we aim to help folks with screen addiction heal? How would our curriculum inform that? So, I don’t know if there’s any exact curriculum specifically around it, but it often comes up when we discuss, especially in relationships week. Um, relationships week is a really big one. I know I make a point to kind of discuss how do your relationships with people in person differ from maybe relationships that you have with them online. Um, and how do you maintain unhealthy relationships through social media that maybe should have had an expiration date? Um, because that’s one big thing with social media especially is that like we have this idea of like collecting people. Um, it’s like I know what Joemo from high school is doing and I am in my 30s and I don’t really need to know that we don’t talk. We don’t connect. There’s there’s nothing about this person’s life that I’m actually like deeply invested in and yet I have access to that and that’s kind of weird. Yeah. Like and it impacts me. It’s another one of those people at the door knocking like, “Hey, let my life impact yours.” And we invite this in and we feel like we have to maintain these relationships even when they’ve kind of like run their course. It’s not really natural for a person to maintain relationships with people h having no impact on their life except for like this passive like I know what they’re doing. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. And so I always like to kind of bring that into the room when we talk about relationships and we talk about boundaries and we talk about unhealthy relationship trajectories because sometimes like yeah we really don’t need all of that coming into our personal space all the time. It just doesn’t have to be there. Yeah. Right. Absolutely. And I imagine too it’s um you know with respect to screen addiction and the individualized approach that we take a lot of those issues I think or the people that are more prone to the addictive process whether it’s substance use or process addiction often have underlying trauma and I think our curriculum to your point I love that you guys bring it up in relationships that’s beautiful can really speak to that underlying intensity to kind of quell that a little bit so that up top here we can make a little bit more present of decision isions. Um, that’s really really cool. Um, and we’re getting ready to I believe we’re getting ready to start a screen addiction group. Um, we’re going to start that I think once a week and Alyssa is going to be the therapist. If you didn’t know, now you know. You didn’t know you’re going to run the group. That’s fine. Sounds great. But what is what do you think the efficacy is on having just a a group a week where we really actually talk about screens instead of the underlying kind of causation of the whole thing? Do you think that’d be beneficial for individuals coming into care? I mean, sure. I would imagine. Right. Um, it’s one of those things that’s kind of weird though because diagnostically we don’t have a way to identify it. Yeah. Um, like screen addiction is it’s kind of a colloquialism. It’s just a a word that we throw around with like addiction where we don’t have a way to identify who these people really are. We don’t have set criteria. um our diagnostic manual. Yeah, I think the only process addiction we have in there is gambling disorder. Um and the only process addiction that we have under review or in research in the new manual is internet gaming disorder and that’s the extent um of like what we’re looking at as far as screens go. So it’s really hard to identify. So, it’s an interesting question because this would have to be someone kind of selfidentifying utilizing the criteria of this is a problem and I want to look at it. Um, and I think it often kind of takes like a week or so without the phone for a lot of the people to realize this is a problem. Even, you know, I’ll get a couple sessions with a client before I’m like, how is it the phone? Like, like what would you be doing right now if we weren’t chatting every day? Um, and so I think it would be great to kind of identify that earlier and have people sitting together and recognizing that like, oh, I’m not the only person that feels like crap every time I’m on my phone and put it down. Because another thing we see is that social comparison. Um, other people look like they’re perfectly content with their relationship with their phone because they’re not advertising that, you know, I’m scrolling four hours every night when I get out of work and I feel like I’m wasting my life. Mhm. Um people aren’t exactly advertising that on the internet when they’re on the internet. Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense, too. And like I’ve heard people like would get like flip phones and you you get like a little flippy phone and you can’t really do much on it other than just like answer phone calls. Absolutely. I thought about that and then I stopped thinking about that. Alyssa had an interesting stat statistic earlier in the week related to um the amount of time we use our phone. Yeah. So I you know there’s that one statistic that suggests that like screen time overall is like up to about 11 hours a day for an average American work included because of the work and everything. Um but then I was listening to a TED talk this past weekend actually where someone had identified that if you use your cell phone um for social media whatever um Tik Tok uh if you use your cell phone three hours a day which is actually kind of like a conservative average um you’re you’re going to spend about 10 years of your entire life on your phone. Um Wow. That gave me chills. Yeah, that’s scary. Yeah, because most people spend more than three hours a day. Yeah. Yeah. So, think about that one on your deathbed and you’re like life flashes before your eyes and you’re just like, “Ah, one more.” Would you update your social media that you were dying? Um, obviously, yeah. Yo, I’m dying. Someone bring me a cheeseburger. Nothing matters. That reminds me that reminds me of a statistic and I might butcher it, but I think it was if you practice something 10 minutes a day or it’s either 10 or 15 minutes a day and you do it every day, it’ll be a 100 hours for the year. Mhm. 100 hours. And you will probably be if you do that, I think it was like in the top 10% or whatever it is. That’s pretty cool. Yeah. That’s the opposite side of that, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Positive statistic. Yeah. Positive statistic. That one’s tough. Yeah. I always hate that, too. It’s like you have spent a little more time on your phone this week. Do you ever find and why is this? Maybe it’s the light. There’s got to be the blue light. Do you ever find when you look at screens too like later in the day it’s just kind of like just like sucks the life out of you. Is that because of blue light? It’s because of the screen. And so what we know is um we are not sleeping well if the TV is on, if the screens are on. And a lot of young people what we see is they’re falling asleep. they’re putting the popsockets up and they’re propping them and they’re falling asleep with whatever is playing on in the background. Whereas maybe my generation, we’re keeping the TVs on in the bedroom. Um, but that light is still going through and being processed. And anything that is playing on the phone, on the TV, on the iPad is being processed because what we do know is you are not unconscious. So your brain does not shut off when you are asleep. It is processing your environment. And so the light is bothering your sleep as well as whatever is being played on the devices. So if it’s something scary, if it’s something dramas, your brain is processing that and it’s keeping your body in fight or flight even in your sleep. Yeah. Why why is why do people talk about that’s a great point. Why do people talk about why it’s important for an hour before you go to sleep not to be on a device? Is it so your body can settle? Is it back to what Dr. Prince said? Yeah. So the blue light um evolutionarily indicates that it’s daytime. Um so your brain needs some time to shut down after daytime ends. And if you’re convincing it that it’s daytime still, you’re essentially not producing melatonin and you’re not getting all of the chemistry going that indicates to your body that you need sleep. Um, so you’re really just not cooling down your body. Uh, you are feeding it daytime. Wow, that makes a lot of sense because that’s what I feel like. And norm I go to bed at 8:30, usually pretty sharp, and I won’t jump on my phone 7:30. Like 8:30, I’m out. And if I don’t touch my phone, I’ll fall asleep, have the best night of sleep. But if I dare pick up the phone at like 8:15 and just do like a couple scrolls, I can’t fall asleep till 9:00. My sleep’s all jacked up. And so that goes back to one of the things we can do at Peaks with folks that are struggling obviously with co-occurring disorders, but specifically this screen stuff is like really get their sleep dialed in because I imagine a lot of these people that deal with that to your point and that story, you know, even and that’s that was that was like a big like mystery to me when I first realized that just because I slept eight hours doesn’t mean I actually slept eight hours. doesn’t mean that my REM sleep was two hours. Doesn’t mean my deep sleep was there. Doesn’t mean I give my ch my body the chance to recover. I think I had always kind of told myself that lie. I’m like, “No, I pass out and I wake up.” It’s like, “But what kind of sleep are you getting?” So, sleep hygiene, I think, something we can really speak to at peaks and really begin to allow people for their bodies for the first time to just settle the freak down, which is really, really extraordinary. Um, one of the last things, I brought it up initially on the show, we hand out iPads to each client that comes in. How can we begin to help support folks struggling with screen addiction with that very resource that we have on campus? I know there’s a way that you all do it for individuals and specifically for folks that struggle with screen time. How would we approach the iPad with them on the front end? I think Alyssa spoke to it a little earlier is we take away the phone. Our iPads are locked down. That sounds terrible but there is very limited access that they have. So they are not getting social media. They are not getting um Tik Tok. It is books often recommended by therapists books that are intended to help or support their therapeutic journey in some way. It is also um a way to communicate with family. very limited communication but still the ability to communicate and get support from their their people um that are not in in the facility with them. But in addition to that, they can turn in those iPads at any point and say at night me and my therapist talked, I I have most distress at night. Will nursing please keep this for me? And nursing will hold it. They’ll charge it for them. And if they want it in the morning, they can have it in the morning. Therapists also hold their boundary while they are in groups. So for the majority of the day, the therapists are saying, “No, no phones, no iPads, put it away.” They do have the ability to monitor on their um Fitbits. That’s right. But there is no electronics in the groups and they’re and our therapists are really good at saying, “Put it away. We’re not doing that. We are going to focus on this group, relationships, grief and loss. That’s cool. Yeah. I love it’s it’s more I hate the word restrictive, but it is more of a restricted device. We know what goes on and comes off of those things real time. Absolutely. The producer in the house takes care of all of that for us. So, it’s also like it’s just less stimulating. It’s not as compelling as the freedom of your phone. Yeah. So, I haven’t seen many people be able to abuse the iPads in any way. No. Yeah. they usually leave them behind, forget where they are at some point just because they don’t have that free access. Um there’s no ability to to look up social media to Google on those iPads as well. That’s right. There’s is there no internet access? There is, but it’s very limited. Okay. So, they are able to look up certain things, but it is it’s very very limited. Think about if you handed an iPad. um that had every parental restriction available and parents had to approve um what games or books and apps. Yeah, I had to think about it. Um and there’s the ability to watch Disney Plus. Oh, that’s cool. Yeah, I’d be down with that. Yeah, we do have access to Disney Plus on there. Yeah, it’s sweet because on Disney Plus you get I don’t know why I’m going down this rabbit hole, but you get like Hulu, too, right? Isn’t it in there? Uh, our Disney Plus does not separate our Disney here at Peaks. Our Disney Plus does not have Hulu, but it does have natural uh National Geographics. But I love it what what you guys were talking about, too. It’s like that dopamine hit. You know, you’re not going to necessarily get that by playing chess, or checkers or reading a book on your device, you know? How would you guys define would you define screen addiction in the same way you define addiction?
I think I already kind of like talked about this how it’s it’s different uh in a sense that like any sort of addictive process behavior is going to present a little bit differently, but you do have kind of like main themes of uh struggling to stop when you know you want to. Um being distressed when you can’t access it and things of that nature. Um, so I would say that it’s hard to say that it’s addiction through the lens of like a diagnosis, but through the lens of yeah, this behavior is addictive in description. Uh, yeah, it’s it’s addiction. Yeah, it really is. And you you you mentioned it too as well. That’s I forgot about that, but kind of doing the same thing over and over despite negative consequences. Yeah. And so I want people to really hear that because I think a lot of people I’m not addicted. I’m maybe I’m addicted. Maybe I have a problem, maybe I don’t have a problem. But those negative consequences internally and externally, I think, can speak volumes. I think that brings up a really good point, too, that like someone with a substance use disorder, those negative consequences are going to be very profound and obvious. Yeah. Um, I lost my family. I lost my job. I lost my car. Everything I care about is gone. Uh, you know, I have no money. I’m effectively screwed. I’m using my phone all the time. Like maybe maybe me and my partner are a little distant. They’re a little miffed at me because I’m always on my phone. Like but you know they’re not breaking up with me over it or I’m not losing my job because I check Tik Tok in the bathroom, right? Uh the the consequences feel lesser to people and they’re not as overt. And also when consequences happen, so maybe I do lose my job or maybe I get into a car accident because I’m texting, I’m less likely to attribute it strictly to my behavior with the phone. Um, I’m less likely to do that than say if I show up to work uh high and I get fired. I I know that was because I was high. If I get fired because I’m underperforming and it’s because I’m using my phone, I’m a lot more likely to to engage some cognitive dissonance to be like, well, it’s not the phone. It’s, you know, x, y, and z. Such and such doesn’t like me. It’s a lot easier to access excuses when we have something that is so ingrained in our society as an okay thing to do. Yeah, that’s a really good point. I would do that with substances. I mean, substance use folks, we do that all the time with certain things. Maybe it’s a medication from the doctor, but now that you brought that up, I’m like, I could cosign that until I die, you know, everybody’s doing it. You know, it’s like drinking in college. It’s like everybody’s doing it. It’s easy to do. You know, we can cosign that for ourselves. That’s a really good point. And I think one of which that like the viewers really need to hear. It’s and it goes back to this thing that I talked about yesterday. I was up at um Colorado College talking about mental health and substance use to diversity. We were talking about rock bottom and kind of raising the bottom for individuals because for years and you know since 1935 if you’re not done you’re not done you know and I had to remind everybody that it’s 2025 and we have these new opportunities to raise the bottom and I think that’s kind of what you just said there is the folks that are listening we don’t have to wait until we lose everything. We don’t have to wait until we don’t have any relationships. We don’t have to wait until we can’t put food in the pantry. We can elevate that bottom, treat this thing, and move on and have a happy and purposeful life. There’s a really good exercise I like to do with people to kind of identify when our behaviors are misaligned with our values. Um, and it it really applies to kind of like identifying when your relationship with your phone is probably not in alignment with your values. But I have them kind of list out on one side the values I want to live by. So say like I want to live by like family and fitness and you know humor. Um and the values I actually live by is like humor scrolling on my phone. Um like whatever. And the more misaligned those things are, the more dysfunctional someone generally presents as far as like feeling depressed, feeling anxious, whatever. Um, and so when we do this, it kind of actually gives us a road map of like what are the things that are drawing you away from your values and the phone sometimes does come up of like, well, I wanna I want to be healthier. Absolutely. And I want to be more active. And one thing we see a lot is because of this screen time is that a lot of people are less healthy and less active because they’re spending time on their phone. And so it’s like, okay, well, can we put a boundary here so that you can get more in aligned with this value? And by doing that, you know, you’re increasing your sense of well-being and maybe you’re increasing your self-confidence, you’re increasing trust with yourself, and you’re less likely to reach for the phone the next time you’re disregulated, maybe because you know that going for a jog is actually going to be better for you. Um, but identifying those misalignments is just a huge thing for recognizing the way the phone or the screen or the video game might be pulling you away from the things that you think that you value but aren’t living by. Yeah. No, that’s really extraordinary. It actually reminds me of a a step in the 12 steps that talks about when you go through your fourth step, they they they form a safe, sound sex ideal. But the ideal is about values. It’s about what’s valuable to you in these relationship and is the person sitting in front of you meeting those your value system. I used to carry I mean I got into recovery at 22 so I had to carry a little card just to remind myself and I’d pull it out of my wallet. I’d be like, “Oh shoot, it’s old behavior. We’re doing it again.” And but that’s a really good way to kind of stay in alignment with who you want to be. Mhm. That’s really cool. I think that’s a really really cool way to kind of approach that. Yeah, that makes sense. And it’s one of those things that you can like reach for and you’re not going to get perfect. Um but with practice, you can begin to become more in alignment with your values. I I’ve been telling people lately with respect to like substance use, like not get addicted to these new behaviors, but get addicted to the way you feel when you live within your values. You know, that’s really inspiring. when I do that, you know, a day on, a day off, or a few days in a row, it feels really good to live inside of that. It feels succinct and I can be what I really struggle to be often times, and that’s present. So, I love that you mentioned that. Um, as we wrap up today, um, for our viewers, is there anything that you would like to say to folks out there that are struggling, thinking about picking up the phone, maybe not reaching out or in fear, don’t feel like they belong anywhere? um as most of our callers call in and kind of have that feeling kind of one of the crappier days of their life. What what can we say to those individuals who are kind of on the fence and struggling um with respect to potentially peaks recovery but what recovery can look like for these folks? Yeah, there there’s a difference um when we put down our phones. You are not alone. We and we’re here to help. We oftent times, and I’ve said this before even on the even on the podcast, that the most common thing I’m asked is, “Is there anyone like me out there? Is there anyone suffering the way I am suffering?” And the answer is yes. And is recovery possible? And the answer is yes. We see it every day at peaks. I just yesterday got a beautiful email from someone who we spoke about in our last podcast who’s doing great. So that’s so cool. Yeah. I think with respect to the conversation that we’re having today and if someone is struggling with screens in particular and feeling like why am I so dysfunctional that I can’t moderate this relationship or whatever I think I would like to tell them that like that is part of what they want like these screens are meant to be compelling and you are merely following the wiring that that those are for. And so you’re not alone in it. A lot of people are struggling with it. It is it is really really confusing. Um and we do have ways and strategies of changing that relationship. And you don’t have to be a superhuman to change it. Like you really don’t you don’t need the most willpower in the world. Uh you don’t need to be like I don’t know uh the greatest person ever in order to get away from these things that are created to addict you. Um you just need community. Like you just need real people. Mhm. Like that’s really what it is and that’s the hard thing. I love that. Yeah. I always tell my boys, I really appreciate that. It was a cool conversation. You guys provided a lot of uh expertise and insight for our viewers. But I always tell my boys when I get off their iPads, I’m like, “Welcome back to human life.” And they’re like, “Oh man, it’s crazy out here, huh?” Like, “It’s wild. There’s sun and there’s rain, clouds, and they’re like, “Whatever, Dad. What? Go outside.” You know? So, well, I really appreciate you guys taking the time today to share with our viewers and folks that are struggling out there. I know it’s going to be meaningful and impactful for them to kind of hear this podcast and see what’s available, not just at Peaks Recovery, but in the community. And I love how you all said it. I I I think the single greatest coping mechanism I’ve ever had in my recovery, as I said before the show, is a community wrapped around me of people marching to the beat of the same drum. So, thank you both. Have a beautiful day. Until next time, my people. Peace. [Music] [Applause] [Music]

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and Andrea Yockel

Episode 147From Session to Success: Treatment That Transforms with Dr. Marissa Princeand Andrea Yockel

Watch Nowhttps://youtu.be/FOHDS98Tgv8Listen NowDescriptionIn this clinically focused episode, Chris Burns welcomes back Peaks Recovery Centers’ Clinical Director, Dr. Marissa Prince, and is joined by Primary Therapist Andrea Yockel to explore the clinical framework at Peaks. From team insights and a look inside the PRC curriculum to reflections on social trends in treatment and the importance of turning inward, this conversation is rooted in what it means to provide meaningful care. Thank you to Dr. Prince and Andrea for sharing your expertise and continuing to disrupt the industry through a commitment to clinical excellence.

Talking Points1. Introduction to the Show 2. The clinical team at PRC 3. The Peaks curriculum 4. Making yourself available 5. Putting yourself first 6. Professional accountability 7. Assigning therapists in treatment 8. Social trends in treatment 9. Transitioning inward 10. Looking into youth suicide 11. The highlight of the day 12. Looking into grounding 13. Special stories 14. Final thoughts Quotes

“They have found that a mentally healthy employee is the best employee”. – Chris Burns, President & CEO

Episode Transcripts

Episode -147- Transcriptswe’ve built this cohesion and we’ve built this understanding of each other and being a team and utilizing each other’s strengths and picking up where we see weaknesses because they found that a mentally healthy employee is the best employee you know yeah i mean I can’t process anything if I’m constantly distracted if I’m constantly entertained [Music]
hey everybody and welcome to another amazing exciting and of course with yours truly Chris Burns enthusiastic episode of Finding Peaks i am so grateful to be here and really honored to be joined um by our clinical director Dr prince thank you for coming on the show thank you for having me absolutely it’s always a pleasure and one of our amazing talented uh primary therapists Andrea Yoko and she is a licensed professional counselor candidate let’s go couple months being an LPC mhm yeah it’s so cool having you both on the show you guys both do tremendous work down on campus i’ve been back on campus over the last week and um I’ve heard each and every one of specifically you two your praises from clients that I’ve had the opportunity to sit with hang out with i always ask people “Who’s your therapist m do you love them you know or who’s your favorite therapist is it your therapist and um people speak about you guys in pretty high regard and so I’m grateful to have you on the show to talk about what it is you guys do why you do it and what keeps you moving so um Dr prince a lot has changed since you’ve been here january of last year right uh April oh you were a month okay april of last year end of March is when I was hired and I came my first day was first day of April
i think I was actually when you just said that I was thinking I was like who is the most amazing person I’ve ever hired i think it might be you thanks yeah absolutely well that’ll carry us into like what have been some of the things since you’ve been here in the short time you’ve had a tremendous amount of change but what have some of the things that you’ve kind of been a part of uh clinically that you’re really really proud about that you guys have been able to institute or insert into the organization clinically that you’ve really seen kind of help settle clients walk them through their recovery process and ultimately heal yeah so our clinical team we have Andrea um and one other individual Alyssa and you just heard Andrea’s been here about a year and a half um they are the OGs of the clinical team that’s cool because as we walked through um with some changes to clinical documentation and things like that we got a new team um so Alyssa being almost 2 years in August and Andrea being a year and a half they are our original my at least my original um team members from when I got here um so that’s the biggest change but we had such a diverse clinical team um we have male therapists we have different um modalities that our our team really specializes in um one of our therapist is um advanced trained in personality disorders oh no way we have ex existential therapists who have advanced training um Andrea herself uh does does really well with DV and has advanced training in that um so that’s huge one of the things that we’ve done clinically is we’ve built this cohesion and we’ve built this understanding of each other and being a team and utilizing each other’s strengths and picking up where we see weaknesses and it’s beautiful yeah um you go to the garage uh I my office isn’t in the garage in our RV garage where our therapists hang out um but I go in there and it’s so interesting that our therapists are talking well Andrea knows this well uh let’s ask Andrea um even in the group curriculum Andrea has very specific days that she runs and sometimes when she needs a vacation she’s not there but she’s there training them before she leaves um saying “Hey this is how I run it.” They do very well they respond very well to this so that’s huge we’ve also done some changes to the curriculum that have the therapists have they’ve implemented their own ways and modalities of doing things and it’s worked and it’s worked great uh for the most part some we’ve ran a couple of weeks and said it’s this isn’t nice okay um Andrea who has advanced knowledge in narrative therapy that was one of the things that we tried and uh Andrea was ready she was excited and then she came back and said that didn’t go so well and we have to change that say the clients will let you know yeah for sure like you can tell right we’re like this is not working and we wrote everything down over the last few months so we have systems in place now instead of us just guessing and saying well we I do it this way and somebody else it’s it’s very aligned now and and everyone has access to that and so it takes the guessing and questioning out of our day-to-day experiences i love that and I love that you talked about cohesion and um you know what you guys work on on a daily basis and how that shifted because the curriculum I think is really really important and I remember when you came in and I know when you came in as well our curriculum was really heavy you know it was grief it was um identity and purpose it was shame and guilt was these really loaded modules that appeared to really weigh heavily not just on clients in primary care but the team um and and for whatever reason I think in the past it created an inability for people to have what you talk about now so clearly like this multidisciplinary approach to treatment you know and it’s something special that I’ve seen over the last year is like everybody feels on the clinical team I think for the first time in our company culture potentially seen valued and heard and you’re all in alignment like moving together which is really really special and how has that been for you Andrea since you’ve been here because I know when you got here you know a lot of change was happening a lot of necessary change but what has it been like for you over the past just over a year kind of transitioning into Peaks and really coming to fruition to be one of our stronger therapists and obviously one of our most um seasoned yeah um it’s interesting i love that you said like Alyssa and I are the OGs i always like to say I’m the bridge like I feel like I’m the bridge between old peaks culture and new peaks culture and I feel really privileged to have come in at the time I did of kind of change and upheaval and and had that flavor and I understand what that is um but also coming in knowing what I could see the future would be um and being able to bridge between those two things and carry parts of that culture forward that were helpful and maybe letting go of some that weren’t um some of those being like you know not having boundaries between work and personal life and things like that because I think the core of Peaks is always that our clinicians like truly really really do care absolutely about the guests and and that can be a lot right and so you talking about like cohesion on the clinical team it it’s not just like you know conceptualizing together it’s also a humility and knowing uh where your skill set is and where you need to hand somebody off to somebody else um knowing how your own stuff comes in the room i always say as a therapist like that’s that’s our job right is to know like how my trauma is coming into play and you know I need help with this or can you do this right and at the core of it too is like I genuinely really love everybody I work with like we just like on days where we’re all there and we get to have lunch together it’s like the best it’s the absolute best and there’s no way you can do this job um without having a team like this i always say go this is a weird job this is this is not a normal job and the only people that understand it are the people you do it with and you have to debrief with them um but in terms of what you’re speaking about with the curriculum you know all these things with like it being really heavy like I feel the difference is those elements are still there um but we’ve learned a way to time them where it’s not like boom boom boom and we’re kind of processing in between and we’re tying things in like something I’ll often say when I’m running groups is like “Hey you’re going to hear me say this in grief week and then you’re going to hear me teach you this lesson again when we talk about codependency.” And when you talk about this there’s like this common thread of see how this comes through right which in therapy is always when I’m telling people I’m doing what I’m listening to you I’m listening for the theme like what is the common theme in all these struggles you’re having and I feel like the curriculum is is being formed in this way where that’s what we’re doing we’re kind of keeping with this theme right of like oh look how you are sacrificing yourself over and over and neglecting self seasonal yeah yeah different times your life that’s really really cool what do you find you you guys both said it I think differently than like Pax Peak Pass Peak Peak’s culture too is like this boundary thing and I think it’s really really advantageous to our clients but how do you how do you speak to you know you can’t just go in and be like hey you need to do your work you know but I kind of need you to do your work whatever that looks like or just take great care of yourself how do you inform that Dr prints in clinical culture without telling people you know and and work doesn’t necessarily mean everybody has to go to therapy it might mean get some sunshine might mean go for a walk but how have you been able to inform this thing where you say “Hey in your personal life take really good care of yourself because to Andrea’s point this job can get a little weird um and a little disconnected at times so how do you do that?” I make myself available and how can I support you right um we built rapport um I’ve and I’ve built rapport with all of my team members um and that’s where it started so they have that comfortability to come to me and say “Hey I need a break.” Okay um I’m okay with running groups but could you lower my case load and then the team because they are a team they start to notice too and so they’ll start to come hey we should check on this person and I don’t mind taking a a an extra person if they need a break and so it’s very beautiful and they and that’s how they’ve been for the last year yeah just kind of this open door communication where people can come in and say “I’m struggling.” And not get penalized right professionally for it that’s really really cool we were We had a guy in here we did a podcast and gosh I’m forgetting his name right now but he had a company where it’s he wanted to develop a shamefree workplace for folks who struggle with mental health to where like it was built into the HR component where you could come and say “Hey I’m struggling with my mental health and you’re not going to get like axed or you’re not going to get reprimanded or two weeks later you’re not going to lose your job.” they actually have resources inhouse because they found that a mentally healthy employee is the best employee you know and it’s really really difficult in our field because Andrea each and every day you’re facing your client it could potentially be one of the most important days in their life and one of the scariest days in their life and so what do you do Andrea to just for the viewers out there because I think this is a really important topic like what do you do to make sure that you can be where your feet are when you’re going into these things on a daily basis that are really really heavy and really valuable yeah I think I mean that’s a really good question right in terms of if I am struggling in my own life then all of a sudden here I am maybe assisting someone with clinical support and detox where they are in like the darkest moment of their life and so for me what I’m always reminding myself is you know we always have to like kind of leave our stuff to the side compartmentalize for a minute but like just really being in that moment with them like entering their world and we always use that term holding space but that’s literally what that means is I’m going to put my stuff here right but then also have awareness of that and one thing I’ll say about peaks in terms of is because so many people that work in mental health right or therapists and we’ll tell people like watch out for burnout it’s against our code of ethics to be practicing when we ourselves are not doing well right like there’s a saying which is you’re you can help your client as long as you’re just one shade healthier than them but there might come a time where in that moment that day I wake up I’m not one shade healthier than my client right and so that’s my responsibility to have that self-awareness and to know that and one thing I’ll say about Peaks is you’re right there are places you can work where they’re going to preach this and say “We don’t want you to go burn out and ask for help.” And then when you do you’re going to be penalized and that is not true here right like I just took three weeks off because my mother’s on hospice um and I knew that and leading up to it not only was I communicating this and feeling safe and it’s psychological safety i have psychological safety with my leadership team to say like “Hey just so you’re aware,” I think I’d said to you months in advance I go “Hey just so you’re aware this is happening in my personal life.” I’m like probably going to be a thing in the near future and then PMA you know who was our wonderful director of family services she was like encouraging me she goes “No.” I said “I need to take like a week off.” She goes “No you need to take a month you need I have never in my life worked somewhere where a supervisor would say no we want you to take a whole month you need a whole month and we’re going to give it to you.” Wow right and so how can we do that like what does that look like you taking some time off and how much do you need um and and that’s really the truth and the checking in with one another and knowing one another like me being able to maybe go to Marissa and say “Hey I noticed this clinician struggling at home and and they’re becoming tearful more often when I’m talking to them at work and they’re having a hard time compartmentalizing their own stuff right or like this client they were assigned we didn’t realize would trigger their trauma and maybe they’re not the best fit for them right now that’s all part of us also providing quality care to guests at peaks as knowing our own stuff that’s really rad i had no idea about that and I’m sorry about your loss oh thank you um but it’s I think it’s really cool that you know we’re going through grief week and we’re talking about grief we’re talking about pro processing grief and it turns out that you were allowed to do that yeah so I’m super grateful and that hasn’t been synonymous with our past and so I kind of the I call it kind of peaks 2.0 new culture it really seems like in the clinical department that you guys have each other’s backs and that’s like that’s really valuable to know especially when you take some time i’ve I’ve had work situations in the past where I come back from a long vacation and I’m like did I do something wrong did I miss something because you know you leave and everything they’re like documentation and this and that oh like resentment that you took time off or like Yeah like all of my holes showed up when I was gone you know and all the stuff I didn’t do somebody else did and so it’s nice to know that we’re creating an environment especially for clinicians when your job is freaking tough and you’re going in and you’re connecting with these really really difficult and deep stories that when you’re having a tough time or you’re within a deep story that we allow you to process that wholeheartedly and frankly like clients can feel that you know and they can feel they can definitely feel when you love your job when you’re feeling supported when you’re mentally healthy and um I think that’s really really enriching to the client experience so I appreciate you sharing that yeah of course i was going to say too in terms of this idea of boundaries in in work uh right it’s it’s a different job than in a different profession where you might kind of hold your personal stuff a little closer to yourself because it’s important for my team to know at least on some level what’s going on with me you know where the other day we had a client that got a really awful diagnosis um and had to be transported out to the hospital and that was triggering for me based on my own stuff and to have Logan be able to say to me in that moment he goes “Oh buddy this is kicking up so much stuff for you.” Right and the only way he was able to do that for me is because he knows me right and and having that safety that we know each other yeah so that’s really like really fortifying too just enough people have your back you know when you’re going through it um and and you talked about it uh Dr prince how do you all decide when somebody comes in how do you decide like you know I know you split up the groups with respect to you know clinicians or more advanced in these areas or these modalities or have training in this and the other thing how do you assign clients to individual therapists i learned my therapist was was the first thing um that I did and what they prefer because there are preferences um there are individuals who prefer female uh clients or male clients or and I also learned their specialties and so when we have we just recently had an individual enter treatment well I guess not recently but severe domestic violence severe domestic violence and there was no question who that individual was going to go to they were going to go to Andrea um because she is the best in that area um the same thing with uh one of our clinicians Holly she’s a social work candidate if there’s sex related issues they tend to go to Holly because she is the best on our team at that um and so I learned my therapists what they specialize in what they prefer and so as individuals come in I read their paperwork and then I divide them up to the best available therapist that’s cool yeah you really to know like your team and engaging with them and not just like in this like oh we do supervision and we do this thing but like personal professional lunch whatever it is really get to know the ins and outs so that we can ensure when somebody comes in it’s a you know it’s not always a perfect match right for sure but we do our best to to get them there that’s really really but it’s I think it’s pretty rare they ask to switch even yeah it doesn’t happen often no so you both talked earlier about like a common thread bad when Andrew you spoke about it pretty clearly with respect to your clients kind of a question that I have is you know there’s a lot going on in our environment there’s a lot of intensity cost of goods are through the roof everything’s really expensive there’s more unpaid mortgages anytime in the United States since 2008 and so you have a lot of intensity coming in a lot of professionals a lot of young adults have you all been able to see in your work maybe over the last year or two that there’s somewhat of a common thread based on what’s going on in our environment and how do we speak to that and I guess what are you seeing what’s going on in our environment yeah is it is it you know mature adults are they coming in is it uh you know leaders of their household is it mothers is it you know what is there a common thread that’s happening just since the like in the pandemic there was a very common thread coming in in the pandemic young adults were getting kicked out of high school or colleges and they were coming in they had this kind of disposition of like what why does it all matter the adults are going crazy you know and so there was a very common thread in the pandemic from 2020 to almost 2023 especially with young people coming in have you seen environmentally informed like just because it’s intense right now you know we just had an huge election anytime there’s an election there’s a huge shift um you know one way or another and not to mention like just from an inflation perspective and just the way everything costs people are losing things in our environment i mean two homes went for sale in my neighborhood the other day um and I don’t think they wanted to move and so there’s just a lot of pressure out there are you experiencing that with your clients yeah when you’re saying this that as you’re talking I’m thinking of different themes I’ve noticed over the last 18 months working at Peak specifically um that kind of present themselves again and again um and so one in terms of kind of what’s happening politically and on a larger cultural scale that I’m seeing specifically clients in their early 20s right where we’re entering adulthood we call that developmental stage emerging adulthood and what I’m seeing a lot of that comes in from mental health is this overwhelming feeling it’s kind of like a disillusionment or a loss of innocence of like oh my god what’s happening with Gaza and Israel and what is this and oh the world’s a terrible place and and as a therapist not wanting to invalidate but I I had a client where I was trying to say to her like this has always been true you know and you were just now learning this for whatever reason maybe parents sheltered too much or somehow they weren’t paying attention as an adolescence and so this wasn’t spoonfed to them in tiny doses it’s like all of a sudden they’re getting it like a title wave and I remember her just sobbing and saying to me like “Well if that’s what the world is I don’t want to be part of it right?” and becoming suicidal and also having a lot of them having this real altruism of like I need to help right i’m not married i don’t have kids yet i don’t have a career launched i’m in this period of my life where I can get involved in activism or do something and the pressure becomes so great that it’s the whole like oxygen mask thing of like say you’re in residential treatment right now put your mask on this is we need to help you we need to get you healthy and then you can go out in the world and help but you’ve become so overwhelmed that this is crippling for you so I see that one that makes a lot of sense yeah i was going to say then we see people entering retirement i’ve worked so hard for this retirement and now I’m here and I realized my identity was my career ah and who am I see that one yep yeah and then the other one I’ve been seeing is um people early 20s um that grew up either you know upper middle class or affluent um that just seem to have some distress intolerance is what I call it and and what’s sad is often the parents are self-made where they didn’t grow up with the same privilege and I’m on the phone with dad going “Hey so you got a lot of money let’s talk about how that affected your kid.” Yeah right and they’re like “Ah we tried so hard to give them like normal struggle and like learn these lessons and you know kind of how that presents in our early 20s.” Um kind of a floundering of like “I have this purpose i feel I’m not fulfilling my potential but also no one’s pushing me to do so i’m too comfortable.” Yeah right for some of us like we never do anything until our feet are held to the fire right and that’s not true for everybody but for some of us it’s like we’re just going to stay comfy as long as we can yeah yeah it’s interesting how those common threads appear kind of like almost generationally or every 5 years or so there’s these new these these new things that you have to battle and and potentially you didn’t think you were going to have to face that in your counseling sessions yeah I was going to say I remember in grad school and they they had like a list of reasons like general reasons people come to counseling and one of them was turning 40 right like and so I always remind people that sometimes we just need to go in for like a little defrag as we transition through different phases of our life and and that’s normal why and you you said it you know middle class upper middle class affluent you know I grew up thinking for sure if you don’t have money you’re not happy and for sure if you have money you’re going to be happy and not to mention the American dream is to I’ve said it before race to the top of Pikes Peak to get the pot of gold and realize nobody’s there right and so how do we how do we work with people to see that they are more like I find myself saying a lot it’s not important but you are how do you get them to go like this and like come inward to really begin to focus on and foster something that has a lot of shame in it or is depressed and like how do we how do we transition people inward like it seems so difficult because I was so hyperfocused even in my recovery it’s like I started out working in a gas station like let me be a house manager is everything’s so externally driven and people in today’s day and age culturally or otherwise seem to be so externally focused and so we have the gift of having them come on campus we turn down their volume we take their phone we give them an iPad and we say “It’s all about you.” Probably for the first time in their life it’s all about you how do you navigate that i’m I’m laughing because it’s deeply uncomfortable it’s what we see right for sure well I mean how many times a week is someone asking for their phone and and and raging about why can’t we have phones even though they knew they weren’t supposed to have phones or the other thing we get is you know sometimes there’s not enough activities after group like there’s no hike or they cancel the hike because of weather and what am I supposed to do i’m like ooh sit with yourself yep yeah and in longer term recovery you’re like “Oh my god I got moment by myself.” You’re like “This is so nice.” Yeah yeah no kids nothing it was just me i don’t turn on TV you know that kind of thing but I felt to your point I can remember when I was in treatment absolutely not wanting to sit with myself and anytime I had to sit with myself was wildly uncomfortable absolutely and so I love what the clinical team does partners with the activities team and I know you guys are creating a new schedule that just kind of get people moving and grooving but I think there’s some efficacy to our programming and people sitting with themselves and I’m certain that most people that are sitting there don’t not have something to do you know but that’s got to be difficult yeah i mean I can’t process anything if I’m constantly distracted i’m constantly entertained you know when you’re talking about this external focus that I mean that’s exactly what that is right that’s a coping mechanism to not look here just like codependency and focusing on others is because I don’t feel worthy of focusing on me or I’m deeply uncomfortable with who I am right and so that’s a question I often ask people is like do you enjoy your own company what did you say earlier about talking to yourself and making jokes and you go I like me like I like hanging out with I I like myself a lot yeah Marissa is great she laughs at her own jokes a lot which I think is really endearing right but like that’s an example yeah someone laugh all that matters is I laugh like I’m a great time right but like how many people don’t feel that like how many people’s core belief is if they really knew me I’m boring um if I’m not of use to them I’ll be discarded right and so I have to focus externally all the time because this is painful and so that’s yeah it’s deeply uncomfortable it’s I call itchy and that’s where substance use comes in it’s like I get home after work I have nothing to do I’m by myself like what do I do i’ll get drunk and watch a movie and then I don’t have to think about me right right yeah why um Dr prince why is the youth suicide rate in affluent family systems more than double that of poor kids why do you think like in your Yeah absolutely and I would see this I was in higher education for a long period of time and uh just my opinion has to do with what Andrea kind of mentioned is that they’re not being spoonfed this information they’re not being spoonfed uh disappointment where we see um our our children in poverty having to face struggles and maybe a little bit at a time whatever that is but it’s building resilience every time mom can’t afford Christmas so we’re going to get one gift that kid gets a little it’s hurtful but they got a little bit of resilience each time but when our kids are given everything when they are so protected they’ve never had to experience the hurt um the same thing with grades we are all equal so we have removed grades from a lot of private schools um we we all are on the same playing field there’s no resilience building and so when the world comes at 18 19 20 years old and it hits them they haven’t built little bits of resilience to be able to deal with big issues when we’re 19 18 19 20 years old first heartbreaks right oh I was so protected we didn’t date so I never had a girlfriend they go through an experience where they got a girlfriend at 20 and the girlfriend breaks up with them and they don’t have the ability the coping skills the toolbox that could have been built younger to say “Yeah I my girlfriend broke up with me for this reason but I’m okay because I like to sit by myself i enjoy my own company i’ll go to the movies i’ll go to this festival.” Whatever that looks like that’s That’s spot i can actually relate to that you know growing up it was like my mom gets a large pizza and there’s like 12 of us i’m like I want my own large pizza right you know but there’s a lot of resilience building in that like you don’t get a large pizza and you don’t get two of these Salisbury states TV dinners either you only get one you know and there’s these certain things and it’s interesting you you say that both of what you guys have said because when I first had kids I wanted to exclude the struggle that I walked through like just get it out of there so anything that costs money I got you mhm food toys i mean I don’t do it anymore because I’ve learned a lot in the 10 years I’ve been a father but I mean I look at some of the younger pictures of my kids and they got Yeezys on and these Burberry i’m like what is going on here you know what I mean and thank God I have a really good counselor and just great people around me and great parents that inform um not overextending to your kids and showing up presently and what I learned throughout that process is my kids didn’t want all that they actually wanted me to put my phone down and spend 15 minutes with them on the floor and that was better than the Four Seasons in Maui like that’s cool right but anytime my kids are like “Hey mom like do you remember that vacation?” He’s like “Dad what I remember about it?” Oh I remember i remember when you were sitting on the beach with me and we were sitting there and we were talking about turtles and that turtle came out of the beach and it was just me and you and the sun was setting and daddy wasn’t that cool you know it makes me emotional because it’s like those times together connected in presence and I think that’s what you all are showing the individuals that come into care is like you know we may have got this part a little um intense or wrong or whatever it might be but this this this path can be yours and you can curate it alongside the people you care about and you can have a new experience
that’s rad yeah it’s connection yeah i want to acknowledge too how hard it is when you do have the resources to provide your children everything and and for them not to struggle how difficult it is to not provide that yep it’s so difficult and and I can remember uh knowing that I needed to correct course when my son was about three or four and he had broken something and his response was immediately oh we’ll just go buy a new one at Target yep and I thought he daddy will just give me one on the way home from work uh oh oh yeah yeah yeah let me just buy another one right um and so that’s one of the things I joke about about my divorce is I was worried that they wouldn’t struggle enough and then and having parents I get divorced where I go you’ll be fine he’ll be fine just give them a little toast and as I’m sitting here today my 13-year-old is at work for his dad today doing like hard manual labor so I’m like all right we’re going to be all right right right it is really hard still sometimes to not be like “Yeah I can buy you the $150 shoes.” Cuz I remember getting bullied for my shoes and I don’t ever want you to feel that pain i know yeah i want you to look cool cuz I remember going in there and they be like “You look dumb.” I’m like “Yeah.” So at least you look good you feel good right yeah like if I can just remove that element of shame or or you know feeling less than for them right but then also the question being like well what did I take away from that experience in my life right yeah and and I’m sure you both have worked with you know affluent families who have the boundary thing right and how powerful that can be you know they’re going to show up they’ll show up but it won’t show up in this room you know monetary stuff and we’ve walked with a lot of people who I think parents have done a good job with that as well and it’s really cool to see that happening those boundary systems anyway you know what would you say Andrea is the favorite part of your day oh my favorite any day during the week what is it and why oh morning coffee morning coffee yeah always yeah i I always joke like as I get older I’ve become like an old man you know i’m like I get up before the sun comes out you got a black cup of coffee i have black coffee and the paper and a smoke you know i wish you know Logan and I always joke like if smoking was healthy he’s like “Oh man all day i’d be smoking all day.” I’m like “Yeah.” Uh but yeah like that morning meditation like especially if no one else in the house is awake right yeah yeah that’s really cool i’m going to pop what is your favorite part of your day it is the same thing so all teams at Peaks um pick on me a little bit oh yeah because I am in the chats at between 3:30 and 4:30 in the morning um because I am up but um what they don’t know is that is the time for myself so what I do is I I put our schedule in the chat every morning and then unlike Andrea I do drink my coffee and smoke a cigarette yeah I love it um and watch Tik Tok and um I do that my children are asleep my husband is asleep um and that is my time to ground and then uh about 30 minutes later I say “Okay I can go inside now and get dressed.” And so I start that morning routine but um that is that time for myself um me and Andrea have a similar amount of children similar amount i have a large amount of children i have four um but one is an adult now so three and a half going into grad school at 18 or whatever um yeah so um but they take up a lot of time during the day and so just to have that time to relax um is amazing I love your both of your responses because I think what you just responded with is what we’re trying to get our clients to anchor into it’s like me first today and then all the other stuff in the valuebased component like if I take care of myself in the morning and I give myself the time it’s a non-negotiable well it sounds like it’s a non-negotiable for both of you too like this is my time this is my cup of coffee this is my thing and it helps fortify uh my resilience my mental health to go face and show up for presently people in that have serious needs so I think that’s really really cool i would have thought I think most people on the show would have been like “Oh it’s it’s when I get into work and I start doing therapy.” And I know you guys love therapy and I know you love what you do but that routine in the morning I think speaks to the recovery process that we’re trying to embody and kind of hand off to our clients one day at a time that’s pretty cool yeah well and I think it’s the routine too of being an early riser and you talking about ground grounding it’s so important the work we do i can’t be running in late right you know like oh I overslept and that’s not a thing I can do like I need to come in and like be present and ground into that space before I can actually like be with someone one of the things you guys ground speaking of grounding you guys ever ground like just go outside with your feet oh yeah yeah and do it it’s so good merc you i’m not an outside person craig we just need to get We need to get you like a cut out a square in your house to where it’s like just dirt so you can sit there in a chair and put your feet in it we always joke that my children they were raised in the suburbs but they’re country Louisiana girls at heart because my children do not wear shoes i love it half of the time we can’t get them in clothes either so they do all of the grounding for me outside mud like my kids are those feral children are you forced into the wilderness to retrieve them no stan’s really good my husband is really good at like he takes them on the hikes and dirt and dirt in the hair and they have very curly Andrea knows this they have very curly hair so then the dirt in the hair like the Oh yeah is like it’s never coming out so I have to like shake them out the scalp you get in there i was on campus on uh well I was on campus earlier but I saw her yesterday and the day before there is a client we have that doesn’t wear shoes oh yeah we have one at I thought it was so cool mhm so I don’t like to wear shoes either but certainly in professional settings people you got to kind of wear shoes so she gave me the green light the other day i was like I’m not I’m not wearing these and I was like I’m not are we good she’s like grounding earth i’m like yes you know Brandon was actually the first I’m going to put my shoes on um Brandon was actually the first person to show me that documentary Grounding Earth and I went right outside and I stuck my knees in or my feet in this the grass and you got to do it for 15 minutes and I usually lay there you guys would love this so I get done i get out of the sauna and I have my underwear on and I go out in my backyard and I just lay down like this and I put a pillow and I just face the sun for 15 minutes there’s no fences in my neighborhood mhm there’s no privacy sometimes my wife will come to she doesn’t wear her underwear but and I just often think like what do these neighbors think of this dude this guy’s just lit fuds man you know but I’m out there i’m just like oh my god they probably think you’re the coolest they might maybe they’re just like there’s Chris yeah oh yeah so I always run out in the morning so when I run out of my house at 6:00 a.m I run right out my front door and I run out in the road and I do a spin move and then I start running backwards d and then I run backwards the end of my road and then I go Mhm and I just wonder like you have to rev up yeah yeah yeah like like winding it up
yeah and then I go and I just wonder sometimes I’m like who’s watching me right now you know you’re getting caught on someone’s doorbell camera they’re enjoying it yeah and I won’t let cars we have 36 homes in our neighborhood so I pretty much know like facially like who everybody is and if I’m I always walk in the middle of the street it’s early in the morning but if you want to get past me you got to wave you got to wave i’m not moving till you I’m not moving till you wave and I will literally “Happy Monday.” And they’re like “Chris get out of my way.” I’m like “Nope happy Monday.” and they’ll just go like “All right clear go.” You have to run me over without a wave anyway just talking about early morning process you’re inviting them to set their tone for the day you’re doing You’re saying “Let’s start it this way.” Exactly let’s be happy turn that frown upside down and it’s interesting too because I don’t and I’m sure you guys don’t do this either i think maybe some people believe who are struggling with their mental health like “Oh you know they wake up they feel good and sometimes it’s a battle you know it’s a conversation and it’s like I want to go for my run or I want to do my meditation but I’m like I’m only going to do 6 minutes today cuz I got things going on then I’ll say no I’ll do eight or no I’ll do a half mile cuz I’m tired and then I get to half I’m like yeah but it’s downhill i’m like I’m going to do the downhill and I’ll circle back because I’m tired this thing and it’s a constant battle absolutely and we just move through it because I know that part of my day is going to create the most value for me and the people that need me to show up for them you know so I love that you guys have that i think it’s so so important um before we end the show today I wanted to chat with both of you about maybe your favorite client story or outcome or interaction since you’ve been at Peaks and why start with you Andrew oh there’s a lot of them i’m trying to pick one um oh jeez I’m trying to think i have a few i’m trying to think what is most important well I was going to say there’s a client that um I feel like we all shared last summer who was highly suicidal highly suicidal and there was definitely time I mean on and off M1’s going to PHP coming back to residential back into the hospital back um back and forth all the time and this particular client had started buying Lego sets and building things um and kind of one by one coming to the clinicians and saying like “Oh I made you this.” Huh so we all have them in our office but what I knew when this person came across the parking lot and handed me a bonsai tree um was that it was a partying gift right that they were giftgiving because they plan to end their life and when I accepted that I didn’t say it out loud but in my head I thought if you die I’m throwing this in the trash like don’t this is not going to sit in my office as a reminder right um and it sits in my office today and they’re thriving and doing really well you taking good care of them yeah well no it’s a it’s a Lego bonsai okay okay i’m like bonsai are so hard to take care of and so a client this week said to me “By the way what is the deal with the Lego things in everyone’s office?” Oh you got to tell a story yeah and I said “Yeah that’s from a client and they’re alive and they’re doing really well and I’m so glad this Bonsai is still in here.” Yep that is really cool have an orchid you have an orchid yeah I have an orchid yeah i always wonder what everybody else has that’s a really cool story i like that how about you um I think mine was from just after summer and um it was not a client that I uh personally was the individual uh clinician for but I worked very closely um with Holly holly was the individual clinician and this individual came in um experienced a lot of hopelessness around what he what he was experiencing and no one’s going to be able to help me no one is going to be able and a lot of shame about what his addiction was and um at at one point wanted to leave AMA um he ended up staying and uh completing Holly did wonderful work with him i met with him throughout his treatment um and just recently um you called and followed up with me um and Holly was so excited to hear how well he was doing so that’s cool that’s it’s always wonderful um I do a lot of the clinical screens um for people to make sure we’re a good fit we can keep people safe before they get here um and that’s a question that I often is anyone like me m can you help someone like me um and the answer is usually yes um because that is part of the mental illnesses that we see that not that I’m grandiose and I I’m unique and special but this is so severe and so debilitating to me that no one else is going through this no one else can go through this because it’s so hurtful and when I tell people over the phone “Yes yes we can.” And they come in and they see that there are other people that are suffering like them they often it gives them a sense of relief that this this is something I can get help for this is not something I have to live with for however long I’m here on earth so that’s why we do groups that’s rad yeah that’s why group’s so powerful that’s so cool and I I have like such a privileged view of like our alumni i stay in touch with handfuls of them and they get in touch with me and you know I got a year I got two years I’m in recovery I’m doing this and um I think I it was a couple it was in the pandemic i’m going to share my favorite story now okay and it has to do everything with what you all do and not of what I do but uh certainly I get to reap the benefit of hearing the experience and it just lights me up like a Christmas tree but there was a guy in care who had been to multiple programs but specifically like behavior modification programs he was at a program called Prescat House in Arizona um which I’m very very familiar with but it’s an all men’s program oftentimes centered around sex addiction and compulsive gambling and they come in and they’re very very rigid shame based in my opinion they make they make every one of them wear a bike helmet they have to wear these shitty they have to drive these shitty bikes and then when they don’t that when they don’t have their bikes they’ll take their bikes and make them walk to meetings and they only have certain areas in town they can even be in like they draw a circle around it and if you go outside of that you have to sit on tables tables is eight hours you just sit there and like write lines out of the big book you can only get up to go to the bathroom and so very people still refer to this place and you know I’m sure they do great work but this individual had come to our program and I was a little worried because I’m like oh this is like kind of a little more laidback you know a little bit more um thoughtful a little bit more present a little bit more caring and sometimes that’s difficult for folks that are struggling with substance use been in these programs but I had uh this gentleman in my circle peer peer group and I asked him I said you know he was finishing up the program and I said “What is what did you get out of this program you know how was it?” and with like tears in his eyes he said something that I’ve heard so many times before but it just like hit me and I’m like “That’s Peak’s recovery man.” And he said “I just learned that I’m perfect the way that I am.” And I’m just like “Buddy let’s go.” You know and that was everything for me and I know the work that you all do on a daily basis with individuals procures that response for a lot of people i’m grateful for each and every one of you i’m grateful for the team i’m grateful for what you all have created in the midst of some chaos and some intensity um and you all really mirror I think what the client experience can be and will be if they stick to their recovery one day at a time so thank you both for coming on the show we’ll have to get you on again soon until next time thank you peace [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music]

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Episode 146Rooted & Rising: Stillness as Strength with Tara PattonWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/AQzx-iY5DIsListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Chris Burns brings Peaks Recovery Centers’ Activity Coordinator and our mindfulness master, Tara Patton, back onto the show! From addressing the impact pregnancy can have on movement and fitness to focusing on stillness and finding true power, Chris and Tara engage in a non-medical conversation surrounding the mind-body connection throughout movement. Thank you, Tara, for always shining some wisdom and lighting paths forward.

Talking Points1. Introduction to the Show 2. The impact of pregnancy on movement 3. Authentic connection 4. Where is the power? 5. Tara’s mindfulness retreat 6. Being in stillness 7. Peaks’ approach 8. The connection 9. Final thoughts Quotes

“A lot of times, in yoga, we say if you can control the breath, you can control the mind”.— Tara Patton

Episode Transcripts

Episode -146- Transcriptsa lot of times in yoga we believe that if you can control the breath then you can control the mind Therefore your perspective on life The powerlessness is in the past and future Oh 100% Yeah And the power like it’s right here Like it’s all harnessed right here Just want people to keep slowing down taking long breaths finding connection to themselves to their experience That’s what this whole thing is about Just to experience life [Music] [Applause] [Music] Hey everybody and welcome to another amazing and exciting and most certainly enthusiastic episode of Finding Peaks Yours truly Chris Burns president and founder Joined today by the one and only Tara Patton activities director wellness and mindfulness extraordininaire So grateful to have you on the show my friend Thank you I’m happy to be here He’s always pushed me out of my my normaly out of my comfort zone and it’s nice to do that every once in a while Yeah And for the first time we’re going to formally invite Kai and Zion on the show as well Terra’s got identical twins miracle babies brewing And so we got a whole different aura and energy going on in here And so just want to invite everybody into the room Finding Peaks Welcome Thank you They’re grateful to be here as well Sweet Uh we were chatting a little bit before the show and uh you know we do what we do I think because it provides so much purpose and centerness in our lives and has any of that changed since learning that you’re going to become a mother like what you do and how you do it and how you pursue not only your own wellness but maybe how you connect with others on that Oh yeah Yeah I think pregnancy in general changes us so much but definitely with movement right there’s this limitation um but it allows us to slow down and slowing down in a beautiful way that uh you’re more present you’re witnessing these changes of things that you used to be able to do you can’t do anymore and so having compassion has been a really big practice and you know it gives me more understanding of different people’s capabilities and ways to modifi modify things for them as well So in a way it’s been a really wonderful tool physically movement wise and it’s definitely been a magical tool for mindfulness Like it’s been so deepening being able to slow down in this way and have this uh intuition and closeness to energy and spirit what have whatever you want to call it that um really helps me show up more show up better uh for everyone we work with and for the people in my circles my family Yeah Yeah you can feel that kind of presence that overwhelming presence and spirit and energy and passion in the work that you do And not just that but like the folks that I have the opportunity to sit down with every now and then and how they rave about what you do and and how you show up so authentically And I I think it’s actually kind of cool too from a movement side of things because you’re often times working with people that have you know core mobidities have certain physical issues have ailments and and so now it’s like this more and not more but a more settled approach or a more understanding and connected approach probably even in that regard Oh absolutely So much more connected to that that experience because now now I have embodied it right my whole practice with all the clients is this embodiment and now I get to embody these these more challenging uh movement uh capabilities And so it allows me to really connect to their experience understand it because I have the wisdom of it now inside of me Um so I can show up better for them Um and I I’m just so blessed with what I do at Peaks It’s it’s such a beautiful part of the program that uh getting to connect with them in that way and show them tools of self-regulating and tools all inside of them and like being able to offer them things that they will be able to take with them outside of Peaks um as they fine-tune them while they’re getting regulated with us So it’s so dope too cuz it’s like I was thinking this morning when I was on my walk and like the sun came up and I remember I was like doing a little video and I’m like I was like and I was like medicine And that’s what I think is so cool about what you do and what’s so my favorite thing about what we do is we offer this thing that insurance doesn’t pay for but that we know actually heals folks on a trajectory of long-term recovery And it’s called this like this opportunity to engage in this free stuff and you show them every morning I remember talking about with Dan when he was here but about your morning routine thing Yeah About how you guys had that thing going But this holistic component that you create is free easy to use doesn’t come in a capsule and it’s sustainable for your whole life 100% I mean and it’s just such Yeah exactly Like going out for our hikes that is there’s so many studies that show going out in nature is so wonderful for our mental health Getting that sun on our face like these things they look forward to because it’s immediate experience of feeling better moving their body having you know good conversations People tend to be more open authentic and share themselves more when they’re in movement while they’re walking And so having the ability to get to do that with them is just amazing Um yeah I forget about that too How I met with a friend this morning that I normally sit down and have a coffee with and I was like “Well just meet me at the park by my house Let’s just walk.” And so I’ve been trying to do that lately and I find that like by the end of it like I I’m what always dawns on me and what is always so clear is that like it doesn’t matter but we do Mhm And so no matter where you go no matter what you’re doing what type of intensity you’re experiencing in your environment if you have these things called like authentic connection Yeah life’s pretty swell Yeah You know right Right If we just bring it down like it’s the most simple things that really make a space in our heart like that really carry us It’s going to be going for that walk with a friend It’s going to be moving your body It’s going to be taking intentional breaths that are going to fill your body with this energy that is going to bring you through mental challenge A lot of times in yoga we believe that if you can control the breath then you can control the mind therefore your perspective on life So how simple of a thing but to breathe to change your experience to to bring more peace clarity joy Mhm It’s it’s the simple things that have the most impact Yeah And introducing too in that like as well like you’re you’re so right like the relational component of it I was chatting with that friend today and I I thought to myself and I just dawned on me today that like addiction kind of is this thing that we focus on but really it’s
like it’s it’solated it’s disconnected it’s all alone it’s absent of relationships but there’s still community in it And so I understand a lot of times why people feel valued in this community and have a tough time transitioning to this one But authentic connection doesn’t have to come in these huge shapes and sizes What I see you do with individuals and groups is engage them on that level which provides this opportunity I think like for a light at the end of the tunnel Oh yeah You know a lot of times my day is not like sitting how you would imagine a yoga experience where I’m sitting at front and I’m leading this class It’s witnessing people like sitting with someone that I’m seeing them go through challenge eye contact How are you going what’s going on it’s it’s that connection It’s like that authentic caring uh that really is my job My job yes I’ll run you through some movement but it’s more a deeper thing Like even today before I came into here there’s a woman walking through a manic episode and having really deep challenge with stillness And so it was today my class was very different It was sitting with her It was working through stuff verbally with everyone talking about common things like that they all are walking through And so it’s that connection piece that’s probably the most important part of my job is being able to sit and listen and just be there It’s not about me doing anything Yeah It’s really their experience that’s most important It’s crazy how simple and like complicated that is It feels like it’s like just sit and be like whole here with one other person What it’s mind-blowing this society because this society is like produce achieve go fast Yeah Oh I have to teach this class This is what the goal is And it’s like no no no no no Slow down Be present witness what’s happening in this space and then be with that and then work off of that Don’t try and achieve something here That’s not that’s not what we’re working towards Yeah it’s very ecolian It is very I love that man You’re here now So they what he says so like he he wrote a book called the power of now of course Yeah and psychological time But really the powerlessness is in the past and future Oh 100% Yeah And the power like it’s right here Like it’s all harnessed right here And I’m here with you on a podcast right now talking on a Thursday we’re doing our thing There’s actually like regardless of whatever I have going on regardless of whatever you have going on if we’re here together we’re not engaging in suffering We’re engaging in presence and connection Yeah And potential influence with others Totally which is dope right So absolutely I think the struggle with now though with people is like being in the now is uncomfortable at first and we never talk about that part of it right like it’s uncomfortable to be in stillness and like have to witness what’s really going on for you or you know maybe it’s in a yoga class where we’re being in these poses but in stillness you’re like wow why is frustration coming up for me why is anger coming up for me or sometimes overwhelming joy that you actually feel your body again making you cry Like it’s not beautiful the now all the time Yes the power is in it But we have to stop making it seem like this only beautiful thing to be in presence because the realness shows up in our presence The truth of what we’re walking through And so um Echer told it right for sure Uh but I think there’s I love I love what you’re saying and I agree 100% is actually like the the uncommon thing would be to be present fully And so we have these glimpses and these these peerins if you will to this process that unequivocally for most people isn’t possible 24 hours a day you know like and so like we get to peer into it And to your point like the longer I’m in recovery the more I’m able to sit with it But if you ask me in my first year like if you start delivering on some Ecatoleian you know and you’re telling me the power of now like my legs going to start shaking really bad you know I’m not going to be able to sit still and it’s not it’s be really uncomfortable So to your point inviting people in in these moments of presence and then allowing them to get back to some what has been working for them as well you know Yeah And and especially in the work that we do it’s like some people have been so numb whether that be through you know numbing out with social media and TV or numbing out through substance whatever it is that when I try and like get them to feel subtle sensations in the now it’s like what are you talking about you know that’s that’s not even present Or to the other degree these people are like I can’t sit here anymore You know we’re working with people that have been avoiding presence and avoiding the now And so giving them these glimpses at first giving them the breath work just giving them something that they can check in with themselves check in with their body like okay this is a sensation I haven’t felt before And just that is enough Just that is enough We don’t want to overwhelm them with like you know silent retreats or anything Yeah Even I think about a silent retreat I’m like “Wow man.” Or like the ones where they Aaron Rogers he goes in the dark for like two weeks or whatever Yeah I did a silent retreat earlier this year How was that it was hard Even with a meditation practice even with um you know what I thought was a good mindfulness practice It was sitting in silence for 3 days And um you might think like right on the front end like I’ll be down for that It’s like a three-day fast technology don’t have to talk don’t have to socialize I could just be I was like this is going to be amazing And then the first 3-hour seated meditation I was like hm this is not quite what I thought it was You’re meeting yourself in the deepest way and then like your body wants to like make it so you can’t sit there It’s like oh your back hurts really bad And you’re like no it doesn’t hurt But it’s like these manifested things that try and pull you out of presence Yeah And it was it was deeply challenging Yeah How long would you sit in meditation we would do the morning session 3 hours then we get sit for 3 hours Yeah Sit for 3 hours and then we would get a break for lunch and we sit for 3 hours and then we get a break and then we sit for 3 hours and then you had an optional fourth sit after dinner Cross-legged Cross-legged Some Some people would choose um chairs Um little chairs Yeah Like a comfortable chair Okay Like straight back Um some people would lay down cuz I mean this is I’d be like it is hard Um so you would transition through different poses as you are sitting there for sure And it the funny thing that I never even thought to think of is like I’m sitting there in silence and I’m hearing this person’s stomach grumbling This person needs to blow their nose Like all these things are like Yeah I’m like if we were talking this wouldn’t be so bad or like even like some meditation music like just literally silently ring a boop and then that is it You don’t hear any traffic It’s away from things Oh yeah It’s in the mountains Yeah Wow It was wild What is the overarching like the big takeaway from something like that
honestly there’s so much pe even though I’m talking of course of the challenge There is so much peace and there’s so much to explore inside of you that it’s it’s endless You have so much wisdom so many stories so much beauty inside of you If you spent the time just to be in stillness with yourself you wouldn’t have to go anywhere You don’t have to go on a vacation There is so much that we carry And so even in just three days in three days yeah You just just so much beauty like you know my grandmother comes up that passed away you know these experiences that I’ve had and you haven’t thought about in forever in forever just come up that you know come into the mind some that you forgot about oh yeah absolutely that’s cool yeah yeah and they come up in beautiful ways and even the challenging stuff the things that I still have work around like my shame my guilt stuff comes up too those ones I usually I’m like makes my shoulder get out of here but yeah it’s It’s my takeaway is uh maybe not total silence but being in stillness with yourself There’s so much to explore Yeah Yeah That’s so rad It’s interesting the way you describe that is how most people describe psilocybin retreats Really like the grand takeaway Yeah You know it really is like what you just said I think um it’s just really really cool really objective and really um introspective Yeah You know I tell clients all the time I’m like you know what’s divergent is you doing this right now Like you choosing self-care and stillness and this in a world like we just talked about that’s like progress achievement to be still is to be the contradiction of that ideal Right so sitting here with yourself is is something I want I think they want us to avoid right like because we have so much beauty so much if we let the stories the projections everything melts away as we sit in this stillness together then we get to witness wow like I am whole I’m healing but I’m whole too And I have so much beauty uh inside of me and those stories what’s happened those projections are you know true or not true but they don’t affect this this thing that I’m getting to witness in my stillness And so um yeah I think that’s the takeaway for life like simplify slow down Yeah Yeah I like that I love that They don’t talk a lot about that in Alcoholics Anonymous unfortunately I know Um but TJ Woodward talks about it quite a bit that essential self that you’re kind of focusing like you get to kind of see that essential self which is whole and perfect you know and then you get to go hold that space for others which actually is like in my opinion it’s what best the best therapy is is people that are able to take care of that and see that about themselves and go and hold that space for others like you were talking about it not just being a class and this potential individual exchange and sometimes you don’t even have to say anything you know which is even sometimes probably more powerful in the work you do Yeah Especially in our work right like a lot of people have shame and stuff And so even just two days ago on a hike this guy’s like “I just don’t feel like I deserve forgiveness Like why why do I deserve it?” And I’m like “What do you mean this is Did you not forgive yourself by coming here that you’re worthy of this care you’re worthy of this experience you need to you know let down that intellectual protector in your mind that’s telling you that you aren’t worthy of this experience That essence of you that puress inside is worthy of forgiveness Yeah So that’s dope When you hit people with that like [ ] we used to be like drink you’re going to die Like are you kidding me now like this is like it’s like like a I just saw downtown here at the Methodist church they did a four songs from Imagine Dragons four songs from Coldplay and it was a I don’t know if it’s called a quintet or it was four of them Three violins and a cello Oh beautiful And they ripped and there was like a thousand candles in there Oh Tickets were like 19 bucks It was like one of the greatest things I’ve ever chose to do With my mom last weekend and the boys and Cass you walk in there’s all these candles They’re not They’re fake candles which isn’t my thing We don’t want to burn it down but it’s beautiful And that’s what that’s that’s what it sounds like to me It’s just like this harmonic rhythm and this flow of energy that in this ecosystem that you’re able to create alongside other team members in the multi-disiplinary team that really allows people to feel feel really really safe and and even safe enough to consider things like I’m whole and perfect right okay that’s great I because I was you know all this stuff that you’re talking about like I had thought that like at one point until they were like none of that [ ] fella You know and so the old ways and I understand sometimes and I know there’s some really good components and I’m still down with it and things like that but gosh when we sit here and talk and I think about an authentic healing process I’m so grateful that this type of care is out in front of the people that we serve 100% Yeah I just our what we do at Peaks is is special It’s it’s different It’s it’s not you know kid gloves but we we allow them to have big emotions because we’re a safe space We’re there We allow you know they feel safe and comfortable with us to say that they are undeserving of forgiveness because we create this space that you know they can have their darkest deepest expression And we aren’t going to judge them We’re going to sit there We’re going to listen to them No shaming You know past programming has like this bit of undertone of shame And everything that we do is is not coming from that space It’s coming from the the violin It’s coming from the let me meet you with open hands Let’s let’s do this together And really I think what people need from this space is like that allowance that allowance to maybe think that I am whole and that these stories that create shame for me are not me so that when they leave our our care they can create a life that has that in the background so that they can trust when things start going good they can build this life that has joy and happiness and not try and you know push it away or sabotage or anything because they do have that glimmer of like wait I am I am God I am whole Yeah I deserve the dopest seed that could be planted Yeah Yeah Cuz then they’ll accept a life that’s better than the one that they were numbing out for or they were running from And then once you create a life that is better than what felt good to you as a maladaptive behavior then you’re going to keep growing into that instead of leaning into the maladaptive behavior Yeah So it’s and it’s a seed that is is really really sustainable and lasts for life regardless of if like the individual or the guest in our care decides to go out and follow the afterare instructions or not It’s really this authentic piece that says like you’re valuable And it’s it’s it’s one of those things I said I was always thinking that but I I know a lot of people that would sit in these like trap houses and these really acute mental health situations and think like I think I’m better than this Right And I’d always have that thought I’m just waiting for somebody to say it Yeah Nobody’s saying it And then there’s like a couple people that are like I love you Like whoa Right Okay So we’re we’re in it today We’re back in it You know and so to your point it’s like it’s like this seed that permeates marinates and is consistent over the course of time We won’t change everything today but that’s not the idea Not the idea Uhuh Yeah I would say like even in my own journey I’d always be walking through whatever challenge was in front of me maybe I went too hard on the weekend and so afterwards I’d be like I am better than this But I would choose a behavior that would make the narrative of what I thought I was true right like I would continue to choose behaviors that were not towards my highest and best but then when I would go back to my life and like oh wow like I that I am more but it had to be I had to change that narrative of I’m not a good enough person for that you know and so that’s the beauty of Peaks is we we actually get to change that core narrative Yeah it sucks playing that It’s like that uphill game It’s like I now I gota do six great things I did five bad count like five and a half and I’m counting too like karma math Oh man you remind me of this um ah there was this guy in our program his name was Mark and Mark had been to
like I don’t know like 10 treatments M he was um probably you know probably a little older than me He was like 45 at the time Okay And I think it was in the pandemic So it might have been 2020 or 2019 And he had been most recently in a program in Prescuit Arizona I’m not going to name the program That’s just very militant very 12step very driven on um behavior modification is what it is Yeah And he’ been in that program for 10 months And what happens in those programs is like right wrong or indifferent they engage the [ ] out of your family Button them up tie them up and they’re in their hands And so if Joey wants to leave treatment we just call family They don’t do it So family is very much like if you leave you know it’s like intervention style Okay Yep So whatever Peaks um 10 years ago used to be more closely aligned with that than they weren’t And some 12 but um anyway so fast forward he’s sitting in a a peer group of mine and he had been at peaks He was just finishing up a couple months or whatever it was at the time Yeah And I’m like Mark you know and I said “What is it?” Uh you know you’ve been in Peaks 60 days and you know your family had kind of written him off and we he was in our family program He’s probably working It was either Pemma or someone else might have been Lisa or Pemma at the time And I’m I’m like “What did you get?” You know what was it and he says this thing that it feels very cliche a lot of time but I I felt it so much in the moment He said “I’m perfect just the way that I am.” M like peaks That’s what I That’s what I that’s I that’s what I came to get I didn’t know and that’s what I’m leaving with Oh so that’s and we’re good Talk about 180 I’m just like and and I don’t give a [ ] like how many days in sobriety you have man Life’s hard sometimes you know Amen You know Amen It’s a It’s a really cool thing And so it actually reminds me and and when I heard this song from Mahali Oh yeah So Mahal just released an album called Before the Dream Yeah There’s a song called Wise Man on it I don’t know how long ago that came out but a few years ago probably Yeah Um when I first heard it I was like “Oh that’s why I never feel like I’ve worked a day in my life.” M because there’s a um in um before the dream this album I just heard him on a podcast and he um he would have these thoughts lyrics chords you know artistic thoughts before he went to sleep and then he would wake up and he would spend the next morning or the next day writing this album and all these songs would come up Yeah And so that’s why it’s called Before the Dream But there’s this quote in his chorus um for wise men and I’m not going to butcher it I’m going to get it right says “A wise man said to me give all your love for free in what you’re given in return is more than you can earn And when you’re ready to find real wealth put another before yourself cuz it’s lonely at the top until we all have got a
spot.” And the trumpets play the best trumpets Yes So I when I hear that and I’m driving and I’m like all of the stuff Shout out to Mahali music Yeah Thank you Um all of the stuff seems to slip away and I seem to come back to the present moment and I get to walk in here with you and I was listening to it before I got here and it’s cool today to be driven with purpose Um to walk with people authentically in a healing space you know Yeah Feels good So good That’s why this job is just so beautiful right because it’s like so purposeful Everything I give which you know my whole heart my whole you know it it’s returned to me by just getting to see people experience it see people like the light come on See people you know having an experience where they you know finally feel their your their body again or uh come out of a very deep depression and believe that they they’re worthy of happiness Like so everything that I do I get back tenfold uh by doing it Yeah Yeah What you’re given in return is more than you can earn What 100% It’s interesting theory though because it’s now a concept in my life and in your life it’s a fact but for others might be a concept because when you turn on the TV and you go out in our environment right now and you listen to whatever you might listen to it’s kind of the opposite of what you’re hearing Oh yeah You know 100% 100% But there has to be something to be said You know I’ve done I’m the one of those people that does all like the self-help programs and Tony Robbins and stuff And all of them say be of service All of them do And you know these guys are the top of their game for a reason And that being of service there’s a reason why it’s so important and it’s part of their mustd do protocols Mhm Uh because what we get to experience every day that feeling Mhm That connection that ripple effect that we get to see Yeah And that’s how you all you all just continue to rock it and disrupt the industry through quality of care is these like these these subtle but yet not subtle nuances that you actually don’t get paid for I mean there’s a tremendous amount of treatment programs that just come in and do the job We do the human thing and have an objective and goals and yeah we do that but we do this too which is so much more anchoring Um because you got to do that right at bare minimum in the state says you must do that right so you got to do that And and I just think the way that you all are meeting people is is so cool And as much as Peaks has changed over the last 10 and a half years the same thread of like nobody cares what you know until they know that you care is carried out in a really even more authentic way today um through individuals like you that choose to call Peak’s Employment home Yeah So grateful for it Feel so blessed Yeah Well I appreciate you coming on the show Let’s think You have any amazing quotes to share with anybody any inspirational stories anything you want to get off get off your chest what was that what was that show then was it on MTV okay Where they used to people used to call in It wasn’t truth or dare It wasn’t like they would call Oh when they when they would like call in and like dedicate songs Yes Well it was not only dedicated songs but there was also a game Oh a game Maybe it was Maybe I’m thinking something totally different Anyway I don’t know I don’t know that one But I honestly I’m not good at quotes No I’m not going to I’m not going to throw a quote out but I just know that we’re doing some good stuff and I’m grateful to be a part of it and um just want people to keep slowing down taking long breaths finding connection to themselves to their experience That’s what this whole thing’s about Just to experience life So well stated End of story Terra Yeah that’s a Terara quote Terara patent Everybody let’s go No that’s the experience that I get to you know kind of live on the outside of and connect with a little bit I’m grateful for you your team the people you uh have the opportunity to work alongside to carry out this very very critical mission of ours to save lives through quality of care So thank you for coming on today my friend Yeah thank you Peace

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Episode 145Mentorship Over Medals – The Real Victory Beyond the Mat with Marcelo MottaWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/zUAiMAbPbq0Listen NowDescriptionIn this powerful episode, Chris Burns and returning guest Daniel Calvert sit down with legendary Jiu-Jitsu Professor Marcelo Motta. With decades of elite success in the sport, Prof. Marcelo reflects not just on championships, but on what he considers his greatest victories—mentoring, coaching, and the lives he’s helped shape through discipline and dedication. From heartfelt coaching lessons to life-changing mentorship stories, this conversation dives deep into how martial arts can save lives far beyond the mat. Thank you Prof. Marcelo and Prof. Daniel. For more information, check out Prime Jiu-Jitsu in Colorado Springs.

Talking Points1. Introduction to the Show 2. Why Prime Jui-Jitzsu? 3. Development through the community 4. Knowing what it takes 5. Being a great human 6. Setting the example 7. The importance of mentoring the youth 8. Integrity in your career 9. Trauma and Jiu-Jitsu 10. Self awareness 11. The greatest moments 12. Teaching is an art 13. Final thoughts Quotes

“We are not in the business of martial arts, we are selling confidence”.— Professor Marcelo Motta

Episode Transcripts

Episode -145- Transcripts-think the responsibility I have on my shoulders when I step on the mat adults mentors needs to know what the responsibility it is in teaching kids man that’s everything that was my potential that was a glimpse at what I’ve been pursuing all these years is a glimpse at my potential yeah jiu-jitsu found me i was born in the right place at the right time and my personality I think just matched [Music] [Applause] [Music] hey everybody and welcome to another exciting enthusiastic and amazing episode of Finding Peaks yours truly President and founder Chris Burns i am sharing the stage today with two people that are very very important in my life they’re important in the community not only for kids teens young adults adults mature adults you name it i’m sitting with two individuals that have impacted the community in a really really special way uh a few weeks ago we had Professor uh Daniel Calvert on the show we got him on the show again today so grateful to have you on the show sir appreciate it thanks for having me yeah absolutely and we have the legendary the one and only Professor Marcel Moto fifth degree black belt thank you for joining us today the pleasure is all ours thank you Chris very much for having me thank you for the opportunity i’m super excited for this conversation today thank you also Daniel for coming to have this uh chat here and I’m grateful I have both of you in the room because um you know you get a feeling when you walk into Prime Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu that I’ve experienced and I remember when Daniel got his black belt from you he was able to curate in a in a way the time that he had in there what that meant to him um and so so grateful to have him on the show and what I was talking to DC about the other day as well is like all the black belts that are currently at Prime have a lot of success in their lives you know and and and I get to connect with those people on a daily basis and so what is it about Prime you think that gives it that special feeling because everybody feels it every single person I have the opportunity to sit down with um every human every 5-year-old every 75year-old has the same experience when they walk in um how have you been able to create that um I think I’m uh ever since I was little I’ve been always a very passionate person and I think uh I do a pretty good job at passing on that passion not only to kids but you know from kids to adults i think uh it’s not about what you teach it’s
about teaching the passion teaching them to love something so much and they stick to it i think uh you know the also the originality of jiu-jitsu that is taught at PrideBJ in my academy yeah it’s a beautiful thing i it so much so you weren’t at the competition last week but we were at it and Garrick won his final match and I did what you Hey and you should have seen his face he’s like “Somebody had to do it.” But that’s the special sauce man that’s the Hey the cast was like I’m so glad you did that because the boys love hearing that it’s like a sign of like I’m supported there’s someone here right um and we got this it’s very very cool and very very special i have to imagine as we were kind of talking about before the show is like this goes back a long time ago right to Rio de Janeiro in Brazil um where you found jiu-jitsu um and what that meant to you as a young
person I think it meant it like I said you know jiu-jitsu found me i was born in the right place at the right time and my personality I think just matched with it um you know first of all being uh young and not having uh a purpose right like finding something like that at such a young age it was it was very important i fell in love because it was my way out of uh so many old ways of living you know like you know being bored and you know how it goes right like when you find something that you can live for your life is much happier you you know you wake up every day with that that feeling inside your heart you know like oh you know like for example my Monday Wednesdays Thursdays my every day pretty much my Saturdays like you know I wake up like you know I gotta go I gotta teach I gotta sometimes you have the same uh topic but you know you you can use a different way to teach it you know what I mean you can Yeah it’s interesting too because it’s not just all of your coaches carry the same passion like they mean you know just as much to me you know i think like I said you know the most important thing about uh jiu-jitsu for me is to teach them that p that passion and uh you can see nowadays there is you know othermmies around but the passion I I don’t think there is and and I’m not only talking Colorado I’m talking about all over the world you know like it it’s something different i feel very very passionate about jiu-jitsu and I’m able to teach that passion yeah and I mean if I can speak to that just a little bit like I can remember the first conversation I ever had with you when I walked into the doors of Prime it’s infectious do you know what I mean like um I the I remember I walked in cuz I was a little unsure like I was I was a just out of high school skinny kid you know what I mean never really an athlete or anything but I was bored and I happened to live close to prime and I looked it up on the internet you know what I mean and when I walked in the door Marcelo’s right there like “Hey how are you what makes you want to train?” Like he I told him I was like “Oh my brother and I sometimes we fight a little bit.” He’s like he’s like “Oh yeah you got to learn how to love that kid i got you teach him too but he’s like “You guys got to figure out who’s going to win the remote here.” You know you know and then just from then on that sets the tone you know what I mean and sweet memories a great job he does a great job of Daniel was what 17 19 19 at the time yeah are you 30 now 30 yep i’m getting old that’s such an important like developmental stage you speak to a lot and I think it’s important for the viewers like you speak to a lot of the the kid that came in in the man that sits here today like what what was that I know we talked a little bit about on the show but now professor’s here was it is is it all community is it purpose is it a foundation in life is it all the things what was it for you that you know I mean there’s a lot to it I would say I’m still that kid you know what I mean like you kind of never get out of that like I still um not to say I’m like surprised when when I see myself in the mirror but like you know you still you still have those feelings and everything else but um the confidence that jiu-jitsu has given to me is something I didn’t have before and that’s such a valuable vehicle to get to wherever you want to get to in life so um you know look I can look back at that time and just see where I was who I was and see what I lacked and the things that I have now a direction that confidence just some accomplishments under my belt mentorship you know what I mean community that I didn’t have so I mean take your pick that’s Yeah I love that man i know we heart we harped on it a lot in our show about community but talking with professor before the show it was like community in Brazil when you were growing up as a kid was huge what was that like and what was the jiu-jitsu community like um where you were growing up i think the the so we are talking about uh early 90s uh I started ju so I started uh grappling uh in judo in the mid80s 1985 but I started jiujitsu in 1991 right around the the time where um Hoy Gracie uh fought at the first UFC in Denver Colorado wow which is super uh which is super coincidential that I ended up moving to Denver in uh 2011 when I you know came from you know Brazil Emirates and then I came to uh to the US so yeah it’s uh and what was the question again as far as like as far as just community we had chatted a little bit before the show about just Brazil and what it was like and like paint a picture maybe for the viewers of like what that community was because we we talk about prime being such a a center point for community for all of us you talked about for the show how important community was in Brazil and I’m wondering like what was that jiu-jitsu community like when you first walked in right so the community was not very big no it wasn’t very big in the early ‘9s okay uh but there was a community uh there was about two schools uh in my town when I first started jiu-jitsu wow actually one then later on to three years later uh Carson Gracie School came to my town but first was a pitbull academy called Pitbull it’s a lineage of Baja Gracie that’s what I started jiu-jitsu okay yeah a community was small because it was theademies were ran like fight clubs survival of the fittest yeah jiu-jitsu were was very exclusive not like it is nowadays and I’m excited to talk about it um you know how much it changed you know what I mean like let’s say you know when uh I first started let there was like 30 practitioners in my academy yes and those are guys that I train with every day every day um you know we talk jiu-jitsu for everybody back in the days jiu-jitsu for the tough if you are tough if you don’t prove you’re tough you’re not going to stay you’re not gonna be here right exactly and yeah it’s it was pretty much like that and I’m glad that it changed the way it did now it’s jiu-jitsu for everybody because jiu-jitsu doesn’t only have the competition aspect but especially like training at the time under Carson Gracie it was very competitive it was jiu-jitsu for competition on top of that for MMA because of the confront confrontation of styles back in the days it wasn’t oh you know a jiu-jitsu guy is going to find fight another guy no a jiu-jitsu guy is going to fight another modality of fighting like striking boxing or judo guy you know what I mean i have to imagine you just made me think of that when that fight happened the first one in the UFC i have to imagine people in Rio de Janeiro were like that could be us right we could go do this like it created this hope where like hey maybe we could be on the UFC we could be on TV we could do these things and the Gracies were doing it um to all the fighters over here in the United States and so was it one of those things where you guys fought with purpose with this idea that you wanted to come to United States or go to um different place or stay in Brazil what was like the focus my vision wasn’t that at the time but I’m sure that you know uh Master Hor Gracie uh after moving to the US they all had it in mind the Gracie family they knew what product they had on their hands and they believed so much in it i think uh their purpose might have been that but mine it wasn’t i just I I just needed a a direction in my life and through the the through jiujitsu and first judo I think it gave me that uh direction you know what I mean yeah when was it that you decided um or when did you leave Brazil and why i left Brazil later on after I started I started jiu-jitsu in around uh 1991 as I said but I left Brazil in 2007 okay and you didn’t come strictly here did you no I I went to the Emirates uh I I had the opportunity and to teach at the AD Abu Dhabi Combat Club which is ADCC that’s where all the the ADCC events were held back in the days really so I was I I later on in 2008 became one of the head coaches at the ADCC Abu Dhabi conduct club the original building where you know everything started wow that’s pretty unique too i had no idea that is that that’s where it all started like ADCC that’s where origin yeah wow that’s pretty cool did you know at that time like you know obviously you’ve always been a grappler a fighter and and really good at you know focusing in and doing this thing but did you know at that time like I’m pretty good at this teaching thing and to your point like it creates a lot of value for me um in your life did you start seeing it then or was it before when did you know like I’m going to I’m going to continue to teach this thing long term i think it was uh after I realized uh you know I could do it myself as a smaller guy you know competing in competition like open weight and stuff and people would come to me to ask hey how do you do this stuff you know cuz like you know I never relied on strength I’m not that big of a guy I’m not that strong but timing balance you know what I mean like the way I was able to move and translate into teaching knowing how to encourage knowing uh when to correct something because you know like a student at first the most important thing is encouragement hey you know you’re getting there giving them that positive feedback nobody’s good or you know great at first when you start to do something you need that you know repeating you need a coach to motivate you to say hey you’re on right track especially in our culture here in America it’s so interesting you jiu-jitsu guys in your compliments when you first start it’s so funny you’re just getting your ass kicked all over the place great job real strong you’re Oh my god that was horrible maybe because we know because we know what it takes to come back tomorrow yeah for sure and and it’s a common it’s natural to happen to everybody you you know if you’re a computer guy you’re not good at computer first for you’re going to make a lot of mistakes you’re going to get your butt whooped here and there and you know showing up the next day is the most important thing I think for sure and and also just I mean on a on a technical level like we’re we know more what we’re looking at and so our job trying to coach you is uh you as a newer student or whoever is our newer student is to point out good habits and point out bad habits and point them out as such so like hey that thing you did you don’t know what you did when you first start you don’t know what you did you just know you tapped a few times and you know you tried to get your legs in the way and it didn’t work you know what I mean you got taken down that’s all you know but you don’t necessarily know that you did a really good job framing me away with the right with the correct arm you know what I mean you did a really good job turning your hips and keeping your hips in the way you didn’t do such a good job when I passed and you turtled up you didn’t do a good job protecting your neck so now being experienced and trying to instruct and help people get better you have to point out what was good what was bad and try to help people see that so they can build on those that’s huge sorry about that no no you’re good as a martial artist uh you know what’s important for you to stay stick to the martial art yeah using the example of you know myself you always I always had heroes training jiu-jitsu and I remember when they mentioned my name how how much that lit the fire inside me to keep going i remember um winning a a trial at the Carson Gracie Main Academy at Figero Magal Rio Copa Cababana because there was before big events worlds there was a trial so I won the trial was the seed number one for Carson Gracie gym at the time it was as a purple belt oh wow and I I I fought against this very good guy from northern Brazil and I beat him in the trial and I encountered him in the competition and I ended up lost losing the match by a kimura and the guy was well known for that kimura and I beat him in practice and then you know all the rumors you know oh Marcelo lost to that guy so Carson Gracie senior was in the academy and they taught him how I lost the match and he was obsed obsessive with winning the competition overall and then you know they say hey so losing by a kimura and I you know somebody goes and talks to Carson about it and he’s like turns around like bish stupid you don’t know how to defend a kimura I was like no I made a mistake hold inside your thigh stupid but the fact that he spoke to me and I I wasn’t bothered by that I I was a pro athlete for me was a honor to have Carson Gracie Senior teaching me how to defend a Kimura I was in heaven you know what I mean now if he had given me an accomplishment sorry uh an a compliment it would have been even better but just because he mentioned my name and say “Hey man,” called me stupid at the time I was like “Man you know that guy knows who I am now.” And uh yeah I ended up losing the finals there was for me I I think that day when Carson Gracie Senior spoke to me cuz I never had a class with him he taught me he was in regular clothes sitting uh by the edge of the mat watching you know watching it uh rumble yeah for me it was you know just even even though it was you know negative but whoever knows Carson Gracie Sr knows that he’s he’s a teddy bear and I I I love that guy so much just being that day on the mat with him changed my life that’s cool you know how you probably know how to defend a Kamura better than anybody now huh i’m sorry you probably defend a Kamura better than anybody now maybe because it’s very simple that’s so cool those unique stories it’s like I talk about it a lot on the show but I and I kind of a broken record but it’s it’s about being seen valued and heard by people outside of your family that you look up to and when those people you you both said it best it’s about this connection when somebody has a connection with us or we have a connection to them and they’re in a position of power or mentorship their influence matters a lot very much you said it you both just said it without saying it but without connection we don’t have influence so you draw into that connection first you all do hey great job this is how we’re doing it you’re doing this and then as as you as you kind of blossom and you all see this person is taking this pretty seriously now we come with some criticism and some real life stuff and in balance and I think it’s really really integral not just for adults but like childhood development and those stages are really really really important and it’s kind of what I wanted to touch on next is like you went back to school and got a degree in some sort of like it was childhood development right yeah physical education yes um you know uh growing up I was always taught to open the doors what if I don’t make it as an a professional athlete and back in the days there was no money in jiu-jitsu to be a professional jiu-jitsu fighter so you would have to go in MMA and that’s how I grew up training jiu-jitsu with MMA alongside so um I decided to go to school just to open another little door to hey maybe I’ll apply a lot of the the knowledge into teaching jiu-jitsu when did you actually go back to get your degree how old how old were you uh in 20 in 2000 uh I was uh 22 that’s really cool i I think it’s really unique too you know to have somebody in in uh jiu-jitsu gym who owns it is the founder who also has a foundation and an education and some sort of childhood development physical education that’s literally what you’re doing i don’t know why and I’m not a degree person my brother bless his heart he’s a big degree snob he’s like “What do you got behind you?” I’ve never been like that but something about that when we started at Prime I think I might say it on the website I was like that’s unique and that feels valuable you know so even though you’ve got it in an effort to balance oh if I couldn’t be a fighter do this I think it really fortifies or supports the mission and the vision and the connection at Prime i think it’s really cool and really unique i don’t see a lot of people around town with that on their resume you know and I think the results speak for themselves you know what I I mean we the prime is top to bottom really a world-class gym there’s no two ways about it but the kids program is exceptional and you don’t see kids programs like what you’ve built you just don’t see it no I think and I mean who’s to say is it all the degree it’s not all the degree obviously but it’s Is that a big part of it probably but right i wish you could get a degree and be like hey this is a degree in being a successful gym owner there you go yeah it it is it is really unique and very very special and prime not only like world class world champions all over the place but really really good people world champions in life yes that’s what uh beats my heart good people you know what I mean yes yeah you always say you always say it we go into bel gives me chills man because it’s been the impact that you guys you had on my life but also like on my kids’ life over the last three years i don’t know that there’s another adult that’s had that impact on my kids’ lives i We don’t have family we don’t have a lot of family out here so it’s been really really big my kids look up to you they look up to the gym they sing they have the prime spirit they know what it’s about it’s about working hard and showing up and being present and when you lose getting back after it and you’ve you guys taught them all that i couldn’t have touched that with a 10-ft pole now I get to support it with the way that I show up in my life but it really really is aggravated by the way that Prime supports our family system and so I guess my question is is like how do we how do you continue to cultivate in such a special way this idea of being a great human and a great athlete because so often in our culture one raises over the other and we have these super athletes that don’t know how to treat people you know and it’s kind of sad to me so what do you think it has been for you and the development of kids and teens and young adults that makes it so different think of the responsibility I have on my shoulders when I step on a mat can’t every athlete high level athlete they’re selfish think about themselves and I think Daniel seen when I’m competing professor when professor is competing professor when professor is just teaching so getting older accomplish accomplishing some personal goals as an athlete brought me to where I am nowadays where I don’t look back I was like oh you know I want to win this I want to win that I am personally satisfied and when I step on the mat I come last i want to do my best especially when I’m teaching kids adults mentors needs to know what the responsibility it is in teaching kids molding human beings they are not all going to be professional athletes they might be tomorrow mayors of the city you know CEOs in the company
whatever they do I teach them to do their best mentor them whatever you choose in life try your best it’s achievable it’s not going to be easy you know you should go after that yeah i don’t mean to interrupt but if I can speak to that a little bit just having learned from you for over a decade at this point um it’s the example you put up that’s what we see you know what I mean it’s the example not only as like an athlete and as a tough guy who does jiu-jitsu and it will train with the big guy in the room and train with the new person and you know just respect everybody almost at that at that same level but that it’s it’s unique it’s cool to hear your perspective on it like you take that very seriously thank you but um but yeah that’s what we see as your students we see the example of not only someone who’s exceptional at jiu-jitsu but someone who is an exceptional person and uh I think we spoke about this the last last time I was here is um when we’re teaching the kids and we’re coaching the kids a lot of times in the realm of jiu-jitsu we see this kid has potential this kid could be great he’s he’s 10 years old or 12 years old and he’s already doing this and that if he sticks with it he could be a jiu-jitsu world champion well he could also be something productive you know what I mean and so we have this instinct to be like “Oh he’s leaving he’s not doing jiu-jitsu anymore.” Those lessons are lifelong even if he does choose to do something else but anyway yeah so yeah it’s it’s cool to hear your perspective on it it’s really because it’s it’s privileged right what I mean and that’s what you I am a privileged guy what I mean is like no to be able to like I think sometimes we miss it people open up jiu-jitsu gyms all over the place we got 100 members here they’re doing this we forget that like especially when it comes to kids like this is a privileged relationship it should mean a lot oh 100 you have an opportunity and that’s what’s I think so unique and special about prime is you look at it as such a special thing and that’s how every mentor should be you have your kids training with me not only your kids but you and your wife a part of my program i mean this this uh the fact that you know you have your kids train it it shows me a lots of uh trust you have in me i cannot disappoint you this is part of my culture this is who I am you trust me i’m not going to let you down i’m going to do my best you can feel that you can feel that yeah and if we you know we were talking on the last show is like the sum total of the five people I surround myself the most with you know are going to be who I am and what my kids are and today that’s titans you know and I love that it’s so important to you because that that’s the I think that’s the special thing at Prime is that you’re there your energy is there and the people um that coach your classes and your lineage and the people that are there doing it and fortifying that are carrying the same mission and vision authenticity and energy that you have um and it’s really really cool and really unique i I I liken it to like um we say like a doctor but they don’t see the doctor five days a week right you know that’s a privileged position a therapist people are going to come to you with some of their things i know you’ve sat with people in mentorship where they bring hard stuff in their life to the mat and they sit with you and you’re like “It’s going to be okay it’s a privileged position.” Like we can do really good with it or it can go south and I just love what you guys do at Prime because that’s the special sauce that’s what makes it so much different and that’s why it’s been so sustainable all of these years um I’m a big fan of when the heart is true the universe will conspire to support you meaning like this is just the thing yep you know and it’s got a lot of integrity in it which I think is um undervalued it’s very important integrity you said that word there that’s uh very important in my vocabulary integrity not only talk about it walk your talk yeah see a lot of people talking about it in front of the camera but you know when it’s time to do it shortcut what’s easy yep for sure what’s easy it’s not always what’s best for you and for whoever you’re teaching travel the extra mile this is the secret of success consistency doing your best traveling the extra mile there is no competition there mhm you know what I mean and the hardship when it’s hard to do something and you decide to walk all the way and do everything and the extra mile there is no competition over there no traffic there’s no traffic on that extra mile no traffic i love that exactly that’s a great way to put it yep and not only in jiujitsu Chris you know that in life there is no shortcut you have to do your best every day then there is no wonder you know like oh you know I got there is a reason it was I I knew where I was going the whole entire time yeah uh that just speaks to me in such a huge way because I remember when we opened up Peaks Recovery [ ] when I got into the field 17 years ago it was like there right when I got into the field you know this is everything I wanted to do my whole life i feel like God put me on earth to help people and I get into this field and I learned that actually not everybody cares about people in the way that I do and I thought if you’re helping people grow you care it’s not true and so I had this integrity about me to do the same thing on camera that I do at home or in the dark and we we moved into recovery this way and I didn’t think for a moment like I’m not the smartest guy on earth but when we open Peaks Recovery I was like I’m pretty sure we’re going to be the best treatment program because we’re authentic we care about people and they feel that and you can’t quantify that in your business model you can’t quantify it in your monthly rate you got to feel it and that’s something so synonymous with peaks and prime and mental health and wellness is it all goes together is it’s like people that truly care and to have those people in your life help fortify in a very intense and busy life a quality of life that’s really really solid you know and jiu-jitsu is a small part of it mhm it’s interesting you say it that way um cuz I think you know this I think you both know this about me i I worked on an ambulance i had a career as a EMT on an ambulance for about four years and you know when you get started it’s just what you said you think like “Okay yeah I’m gonna help people and I’m gonna you know save lives and you know what else whatever else.” And then you do it for a week you know what I mean and you’re like “This is awful.” Like and one that the job is just not a fun job but also it’s like this like how much am I helping this person that live has lived the last 10 years of their life in this bed that I’m taking from this bed to that bed you know and it’s it’s kind of soul crushing a little bit yeah uh and for me that was one thing that made that really made me think you know what I got to do jiu-jitsu for my career like I can’t just do I can’t just ride this ambulance and do this because I’m not actually helping anybody but we are that’s a good point you’re like “Wait a minute i this healthcare thing is not what I thought.” Yeah this is not the same but in jiu-jitsu it’s like I’ve seen people come in and lose weight and get these connections and you know grow in their confidence and have these tangible profound improvements to their life through jiu-jitsu and it’s like this thing that I thought I was really going to be helping people you don’t see that from well that happened that happened to me you know in uh different parts of my life you know like I nowadays catch myself you know using uh the things like especially uh consistency that I learned training jiu-jitsu right like for you to be able to execute certain movement you have to practice that over and over and over again and it doesn’t matter it’s not what you do in one day it’s on the long run so it’s teaching you uh consistency to persevere uh right like doing training no matter what and in school when you have a test hey I’m going to have to write down on that test you know I’m going to have to pass it so I need to uh study oh I’m gonna set I I did a lot of that in uh school hey you know I need to study uh two hours today so I’m gonna split it up in you know to you know attention spam you know what I mean 45 minutes here there you know what I mean i would fit it in my day or between training I would study so and it helped me m so that’s when it transcends from you know in in in in my example here in jiu-jitsu jiu-jitsu adding to my personal life like same thing in relationships putting in the work you know what I mean like hey you know I got to spend more time with my kids with my wife that is nothing good that comes out of something without you putting work in it you know what I mean i don’t know that there’s a more relevant activity to the rest of life like jiu-jitsu like there’s it’s so re like you’re saying it’s so relevant to your career it’s so relevant to your family values like just you have to be consistent and you have to go through the moments when it sucks and you have to get better and you just and if you don’t do that it won’t work you just don’t you you won’t get better yeah it’s so interesting not just about the sport like you really do like I remember when I started like two years from now you’re gonna get it i’m like two years what two years you kidding me i can run a mile yeah doesn’t work here you know but consistency in showing up it’s not it’s not just like a a thing for life a jiu-jitsu but it it really teaches you to to formulate a better relationship with what you consider dead ends in life yeah right and we said it before the show it’s like when now we can take breaks and not quit we can move into things and move out but for sure the one thing we’re not going to do is stop right right because that’s not part of the the ecosystem that’s part of the foundation that’s not what we do to get better in jiu-jitsu and to get better in life so we’re just going to keep moving but first you need to find the real value and that for you not to quit yeah mhm that’s why the passion is very important to be taught before you found a passion somehow in jits i found mine the reason why I did it so I think if you have a reason not to quit even though it is hard at first well especially the the first two years the hardest belt to get in jiu-jitsu is not the black belt it’s the white belt because you don’t know what’s coming yeah it’s true you’re walking into a room like especially back in the days in the 90s scary guys in the room those guys are not there to jiu-jitsu for everywhere here’s a stripe you do great no hey if you don’t prove yourself if you don’t perform if you don’t fight that big guy well we’re going to bully you even more those are the changes that I love that you know comparing to when I first started and jiu-jitsu nowadays jiu-jitsu is for everybody mhm competition is not for everybody lifestyle community the therapeutical effects of jiu-jitsu is for everybody jiujitsu has so many virtues and if you think only about one competition you you’reing out a lot of uh great things about jujits it’s true i agree yeah there was a book I want to say Cass was telling me about it maybe she bought it don’t quote me um but it’s called Trauma in Jiu-Jitsu and it’s a book about women and moving through I’m pretty sure I’m getting this right uh moving through their trauma and their life experience that was really really intense through going into jiu-jitsu and learning reminds them of Yeah exactly and they’ve been able to like in essence and I I agree with this this i can’t tell you how many times I’ve left jiu-jitsu and text my wife and been like “Sorry I was being an [ ] earlier.” Yeah you know it helps me it’s therapeutic like you said very much but yeah there’s there’s books and there’s studies and there’s a lot of things coming out now that are talking about the therapeutic components of jiu-jitsu and how it’s sematically because I do a lot of um I have done a lot of therapy that’s called sematic therapy so it means like the the story lives in in our bodies right on the on the vagus nerve and it lights up with these traumatic experiences but it’s called sematic therapy and the goal is to move that energy out of the body so it doesn’t block and there’s no better way than to go into jitsu and release aggressive energy right sometimes yeah to have the wind kind of moved in there it is transforming trauma and jiu-jitsu so cast was telling me all about those so I want to read that book read about halfway through but there’s a lot of benefit that’s why I try to talk to a lot of people i There was a young man who came in um he came into morning class for a walk-in probably six months ago he was a guy who had been through our program he’s struggling with his depression nobody knew i said “Meet me Wednesday morning at 6:30 a.m man just come meet me let me introduce you to my friends.” I could get emotional talking about this this is somebody I really care about but he left that and he hasn’t been back multiple times but he knows the seeds planted he said to me he said “Chris I’m still alive.” Right i’m like “Yes you are man.” And it was prime and we take that for granted many times you know it’s so crucial right and it’s so big for folks to feel that like whoa you know there was a study I was reading the other day and I say it all the time on here that half of adult Americans won’t sprint after 30 oh yeah like ever take off and run as fast as you can we do it on the mat all the time like this is you know and what that means for humans right huge so big you know it’s huge well and you’re talking about your friend who’s going through going through a tough time i mean I don’t think we know how many people that’s that they are because they don’t bring it up you know what I mean sometimes they don’t need to because they come in and they can cope with it and they can deal with it you know what I mean but sometimes I mean and that’s kind of where community kind of comes into play with it is sometimes they do have somebody they can talk to about it which is so powerful especially in the area that we’re in right like you know a lot of uh veterans a lot of military military veterans you know sign up in jiu-jitsu I’ve had the opportunity to teach uh I just looked uh into my system 5,128 people have and through prime i was going to ask you that number oh my god yeah I just checked it this morning from people that signed up and stayed for 10 12 years 13 years people that came in and took one class so um if uh let’s say you know only 10% of that 10% of the amount of people that came in I planted that little seed seed sorry and I you know impacted the their lives in a positive way i think I’m happy that’s the purpose yeah i think you’re touching thousands you know maybe beyond thousands and that’s kind of that trickle down effect is like I I’ve brought I’ve done three or four shows now where we’ve just talked about like jiujitsu and community and like and like so that was introduced by Prime to me i mean I’ve talked to hundreds of people about this right and I’m just one person one platform well and if you see if you look around if I can I mention other uh names yeah you Joe Rogan yeah i mean uh Dana White
many other people speaking highly about this martial art from Brazil i mean you know it’s benefiting a lot of people yeah it really is and I love the way that actually Joe actually talks about it and he talks about jiu-jitsu as being specific to you know if we’re doing submission jiu-jitsu who again joe Rogan joe Rogan yeah because he talks about submission jiu-jitsu and that’s what you they teach that’s what you teach right you know we’re going to submit um he he talks about it so eloquently differently than judo i was talking to DC about this the other day differently than kickboxing which is a point system yeah eventually someone gets knocked out but in jiu-jitsu without getting hurt somebody says “I quit.” And you can push yourself you can train reality i mean talking to Daniel outside on uh when was it monday it was a geek Monday i mean we went out trained hard in Muay Thai you can’t do that without really risking your life yes kicking in jiu-jitsu you can go all out go have a asai bowl afterwards you know it’s so good you know what I mean like go have dinner lunch whatever i mean great it’s interesting how you talk about like jiu-jitsu starting and and how we you would kind of have to especially here it would be more kind of underground right because it’s like this thing that we do and it’s so cool to be sitting with you here today what 35 years later and it’s such a communitydriven thing it’s such a wellrespected thing it’s such a diverse thing that a lot of people are talking about when it used to be just kind of like this shady shady that’s what you say yeah well luggage like back in the day go ahead you Yeah you bring up the numbers you said that the first academy you were at there were 30 people at that academy being trained at the time fast forward 30 plus years and now you have your academy who’s who’s affected what was the number again 5,000 5,000 5,128 people have been through Prime that’s crazy that’s a crazy difference and it’s cool on the mat what’s what’s really cool to me about it too is it is more inclusive now and there are more people that can fit in on the mat and they can get all these benefits and everything else so you can affect those that huge number of people but there is still that element of difficulty the element of um what’s the word I’m looking for
um I difficulty is the only one I got anyway the elemental difficulty that you can benefit from even though it’s more inclusive even though we’re positively affecting 5,000 people live
ro where you know there is the guy on your back and he’s trying to choke you so you got to stay calm well you know you’re you’re walking outside you know a person comes to you to attack you well you kind it may not be the same intensity of a guy having a knife or a gun but it’s a similar situation that hey you know so you know that remaining calm is the most important thing i always talk to Andy in morning class about you know it’s a police officer here in town and he’s like “Everybody should be trained jiu-jitsu nobody pull out their guns you know because literally you’re safe you know I’m okay here regardless you start reading let’s say the room a little bit better like you know reading your opponent your your training partner mhm you know what I mean it’s such a I think it informs such a quality of life it used to be this thing like I’m tough and I do this but DC talks about like a convenience store and somebody like giving the clerk a thing and like I don’t have to engage with this in a way that maybe I would have or wouldn’t have because I know where my feet are yeah I can tell you that story yeah i was with uh uh my girlfriend and I were at a at a come and go or it might have been Maverick by now whatever it is but we were just getting a drink real quick and I was on my we walked in and there was a guy who was kind of going at it with the cashier they’re yelling at each other talking back and forth because the cashier accused the guy of shoplifting essentially so I pulled out my phone and I just kind of started noting it and just looking at my phone while I’m getting my drink and my girlfriend grabs me and she taps me on the shoulder she’s like “Do you see what’s going on?” And I went “Yeah yeah I do.” And so anyway we finish up we get our drinks we go back to the car and she says to me cuz she doesn’t train but she says to me she’s like “That makes me want to like do some like karate or kickboxing or something so I know I could do something about it.” And I was like “If you trained something you would know that you wouldn’t do something about it.” It’s huge right right i thought all these years like I was getting beat up by wrestlers in seventh grade i’m like “These guys that fight man they just go around beating everybody up.” No no those are the coolest calmst collected well-grounded intentional people that I know today and that that links to confidence right if you have the confidence you go on the mat and you fight you know you have let’s say five rounds a day well you know yourself you know you can perform you know how dangerous you can be because you also have to answer for you’re going to be held accountable for your actions mhm mhm so you learn how to control yourself how much you’re going to sting back if you need to get to the point where you have to defend yourself you know what I mean like I think the more confident you are the less you need to show off you don’t it’s so true and and those are two very valuable very practical lessons m I mean the one of the first lessons I think you especially if you’re like a tough athletic guy or somebody who comes into jiu-jitsu you learn day one okay I don’t want to fight cuz there’s these people that don’t look like me don’t look tough like me that can just beat my ass you know what I mean so that’s one lesson one and lesson two is later you know what I mean you don’t want to get that that confidence like “Oh yeah I can beat people up and then go out and do it.” Guess what you hopefully you got a good lawyer if you think that way you know what I mean 100% i’ve had students that learned jiu-jitsu from me and they had to use and they didn’t really choose uh how much they uh used from their knowledge and they ended up beating up a person that you know was uh wasn’t you know like a trained specialted as they were and one of the guys got arrested yeah that’s what I love about a lot of the um the the Gracie lineage is is when they talk about it at least the podcast I’ve listened to it was all in this attempt to not hurt someone too like you could get them to submit without hurting them now you could if you moved into it but that’s something so special about jiu-jitsu is that you could it’s this art it’s like Roric like these people we were in Hawaii i don’t know if I told you this professor i know I told D but we’re in Hawaii and this kid this 13-year-old is just like proping him names all this stuff and it’s going on for like two days and all Roric and Garrick want to do is play with his younger siblings and this guy’s likeup and I just listen like out of the corner and I hear Rooric he goes “You know what man like if you’re just going to keep talking like this do you just want to fight watch.” And he’s and they know like we’re not fighting unless you’re like in danger or somebody’s hurting you and and the kid of course was like “Absolutely this will be great.” And so he’s like “All right well we’ll just find this little square over here.” And he’s like “I’m not going to hit you man but when it hurts just make sure you tap.” Right and Garrick Garrick’s walking over there garrick’s like “You’re going to regret you did this man you shouldn’t do this with him you shouldn’t do this with him within one minute boom the guy swings this big old thing he’s Ror’s not trying to hurt him this kid’s trying to hurt him right swings ror ducks grabs his leg takes him down puts him arm bar boom he’s like tap it was over now he’s best friends with his siblings this is a beautiful thing he didn’t hurt anybody he didn’t call anybody any names he said “Man just stop talking to me like that.” Right it’s beautiful well uh goes back to you you know speaking of uh Roric doing that well remember a Japan Open Hung Gracie his last match the guy he found out that the opponent was hurt and uh he didn’t want to hurt the guy so in the locker room before he goes for the final he say I’m not going to throw one punch he’s going to you’re going to see a gentleman going in there taking him down closing the distance taking him down and submitting him i’m going to give him a chance of going home to his family without me hurting him and that’s exactly what it it he did hig Graci there is nothing more beautiful than that for a guy like me that live by the bushidto mhm it’s so cool and you know what Bidto is what does that mean the samurai code of life okay like a code of ethics kind of thing yes okay that’s cool so that’s awesome i think uh there is no better uh advertisement out there uh than you know such an honorable person you know what I mean such an honorable art that’s how I learned jiujutsu and even as a kid kind of get getting it you know what I mean kid understanding like you know we can talk and talk and talk and talk but we can take this one step further and then being able to take it that step further without hurting the kid having concern for this kid who’s been you know harassing him essentially and and Roor is just like “Hey let’s just let’s just fight make sure you tap.” Mhm and then fixes the issue we need more of that eight he’s nine nine yeah the kid was 12 or 13 i know that’s And that age three years is such a difference right and it is such a gentle but fierce martial art and I love that kind of ying and yang to it it’s got this way about it that demands control and attention but at the same time like we’ll let you off too you know and I love that you’re talking about it like I do think that people move into community a bit more confident and a bit more foundationalized when they know how to defend themselves it’s really really beautiful thing it’s interesting because I sit with um like the Jake and Jax of the world and I think to myself as a father I’m like how do you make kids like this like these kids are like such awesome what you’re making a choice to wake up and go train and like I’m like and my kids look up to them and like that’s the path now you asked me about uh you know what is it about the passion of uh teaching kids what you just said you used an example of uh you know three kids Roric Jake and Jack and I can bring up Han Borum Zion uh Jack uh little Jason uh John everybody yeah I mean a lot of very confident kids at Prime BJJ like uh Master Hanzo Gracie used to say we are not in the business of martial art we are selling confidence it really is and it’s and I think it’s naive of us to think for a moment like this isn’t valuable anymore we got cyber bullying we have all this stuff going on it’s kind of like the ghost in the room that nobody can really face but I see the young kids out of prime moving into community with people that are struggling with that intensity and moving through it really really well and with a tremendous amount of what we talked about earlier integrity you know right their integrity human and that’s a that’s a really really big deal not only as a as a a father or business owner but as a friend it’s a huge thing for me and it’s a huge thing at Prime um one thing that I definitely want to get into before we end the show is I want to talk about like your greatest jiu-jitsu moments uh maybe a couple for each of you um was it was it uh you know was it giving Professor Alli was I think you gave her a black belt was it on the podium was it you on the podium was it Rio de Janeiro what is maybe for the viewers maybe kind of encapsulate a couple of your greatest jiu-jitsu experiences as an athlete or as a professor ask the same question let’s do let’s do let’s do one each as an athlete and as a professor do you want to do one first or uh yeah sure so I’ll say uh I’ll kind of reiterate because we he asked me this question as well uh overall um I would say it was receiving my black belt was like a huge moment and to be able to kind of just have a platform just for a minute to express my gratitude to you and to everybody in the community in the in the gym that was huge just overall now as far as in competition I’m going to break the rules i have two um and one of them was when I was a blue belt it was one of the first times I ever went and traveled and competed alone and I went to the Vegas Open and I was the first match of the day 9:30 a.m and we double guard pulled and the guy foot locked me and finished me in 15 seconds there was nobody there with me i got off the mat i went to the bathroom i closed the stall and I cried in the stall by myself and I had a moment with myself right there and I said “You can quit.” Like you can stop doing this you don’t have to compete again you can just be done with it or you can get through this and you can see where you can go so not fun not a fun moment but a formative and really really important moment for me and then um kind of fast forward um few years I meddled one time at a major at at adult it was a brown belt and um it was against a guy named Javier Zeruski who’s now a black belt world champion but I uh fought him at pans and this guy I saw him warming up before the tournament and I saw him cutting the last little bit of weight i was he was big i was it was super heavy so a little big for me but I saw him cutting the weight and I was like “Oh this guy’s going to get tired i’m going to just smoke him he’s I’m good i’m fresh.” He did not get tired and so I just was up advantages i I extended this guy’s arm in a violin arm bar and it was everything pulling on it and he just ate it nothing could not break it you know what I mean and um and then he picked me up when I put him in a mlada and we’re just at the end of the match there’s 30 seconds left and I’m just hanging on to his leg like don’t let him have anything and I like I won that match and looking back at that match I was just thinking man that’s everything that was my potential that was a glimpse at what I’ve been pursuing all these years is a glimpse at my potential yeah so anyway those are that’s like like I mean to me just knowing a little bit about like I guess it’s like Mount Everest like people climb Mount Everest but I don’t think people understand it’s very similar what you’re talking about it’s an elite level of humans that are doing and having these type of stories um really elite so I appreciate you sharing that for sure yeah you know I think I think a lot of other stuff gets a lot of airtime and it’s fun to watch and things like that but what you all are doing in these competitions on the world stage brown belt black I mean it’s got to be like 012% or something like humans just don’t do what you guys do it’s incredible so thank you for sharing that story man i didn’t know that last one that’s cool how about you professor for me I would like to uh talk about uh as a coach first um you know grocery store buying something a kid taps on my back and hey professor I’m like that’s how this kid know me and then it’s a full grown adult now you know 19 oh I used to train with you when I was uh you know little bit younger at prime or then I was like hey I remember I don’t want to say the name oh professor you know I’m uh part of the national guard nowadays thank you you for introducing this uh sport in my life taught me a lots of uh um consistency showing up again taught me to be a better human being i think that’s the the most important and uh I was at one of the grocery store in town i don’t want to say the name we are not getting a cut right nobody is here but yeah kid you know after they train a prime and they jiu-jitsu help to achieve their goals in life outside of jiu-jitsu as a coach for me there is nothing more rewarding i think it’s a a great moment as an athlete uh when I was uh when I’m on the podium I win i think uh the whole point of competition is to win of course fair play sportsmanship but you try your best i’ve had a few of those moments but 2014 when I went when I competed at the open and my semifinals was against a big hero of mine open weight he’s 240 pounds i’m uh I was a lightweight at the time 162 without the GE and uh I pulled guard the match was uh very tight and like 10 seconds before the end I arm dragged him and I took his back and I won the match he’s a UFC champion former champion i’m not going to say the name because you know it’s a big hero to me but if the viewers uh followed my career they know who I’m talking about uh not I never had the ambition of uh or like you know like wasn’t like a you know a goal of mine but when you step on the mat you got to fight hard and that day I think uh I proved the point of jiu-jitsu to myself at 162 pounds uh be able to you know be a hero that’s huge in the match semi-finals of worlds and then the next match I end up uh winning uh Masters Worlds uh you’re on fire after that uh world champion that was uh what year was that 2014 about 11 years ago wow and with me was uh Professor uh Tim Boralo uh professor Adam Wheeler Professor Alli was there too uh I think Daniel wasn’t there for that one we were not yeah so it was great and uh we all brought gold medals uh to Colorado Springs i think it was one of the first times that uh we put Colorado Springs on the map you were all world champs yeah we won each uh each of us in our division uh Fester Tim was master two also uh Adam Willer was masters one wow he get he had a great match against uh uh some big names of jiu-jitsu so it was a great moment but between the two I I prefer my moments uh when you know you you run into a kid that have been part of the program and uh they they were able to transcend the the the benefits of jiu-jitsu into their personal lives that’s so true that you bring that up because the the competition moments they’re good you know what I mean and it’s cool and it’s fun to be able to look back and be like I was that guy that day you know what I mean but it’s nothing compared to positively affecting like your students it’s nothing compared to hearing like somebody come and talk to you and say “Hey you really helped me out that day.” You know what I mean or you really helped me out and taught me this as a mentor you know a coach a professor is nothing less than a mentor in your life you know so if you achieve your goal well there is no uh medals uh gold medals that will make me happy a medal that’s going to go at the bottom of my drawer and I’ll never look at those again you know what I mean but knowing that and it’s not only kids you know I have adults that you know cadets from the Air Force that came you know they’re uh in school uh to become a pilot and then now you know hey you know your student is a jet fighter pilot i’m like man you know like this is jiu-jitsu and it’s you know like we have lawyers we have doctors one of them is a best friend of mine i mean you know it’s it’s cool it’s cool it’s it’s such a diverse community that’s what I never thought i thought we’re just a bunch of fighters here no that’s like secondary to like all of these other really really cool things doctors and business owners and post office workers and police officers and first responders and all a dynamic view of the world but one thing we all share in common is like we show up with each other and for each other and it’s a very special thing in community and talking about the impact on the kids it’s uh you know when I got into recovery and I got into helping people my goal was like well if we could just impact a few people you know I haven’t we haven’t had 5,000 clients in this program but I know that we’ve impacted thousands of people um and the impact that you’re having on youth both of you guys on the developmental process is astounding in community and and the the the sum total of that um I don’t even think we could recognize right now it is so big um and I got to imagine for a moment and I do it a little bit too because we’ve been open 10 years now you all have been open 13 um where you get to have these people you know our our marketing guy was the first client that ever went through our program like he’s he came into he came into our program dead and he is alive and well and you get to sit there and you’re just like this is cool i guess I had a part of that gives me chills and so I just I not only want to thank you but also highlight as you did that the the cumulative impact that you guys have on a daily basis on the mental health and the foundation here in Colorado Springs and how you keep people coming back for more um it is really a wellness model that I think is fit for for distance and and uh intentionality in our world and I think it’s heavily missing in a lot of areas what would you guys say because I know what I would say but what would you guys say to somebody who like messes professor in 2015 and then doesn’t start jiu-jitsu until 2023 okay and I should have done it then cuz you’re like “You got to come train.” You know as he pulls off the lap pull down bar and puts his head thing on and starts like doing the weight that I was pulling down with my lats i’m like “Holy [ ] man i didn’t know this we’re in Villa Sport it’s one of the nicest gyms in town this guy’s over there.” He’s got this leather helmet thing that’s got a hook on it and he’s like “Hey can I get the next set?” And I’m like “Yeah yeah.” And I know people cauliflower ears don’t [ ] Don’t mess with them right and so I’m like “Yeah bro i’ll go I’ll go to another.” I’m thinking you know it’s like 100 lbs i’m thinking he’s going to change the weight no he’s just like “All right I’m just like oh my gosh this guy’s an animal.” And he’s like “You got to come to the gym got to be functional man got to be functional i should have went back in 2015 i’d be a lot further than I am now.” But uh yeah so what would you say to somebody that’s on the outside looking in that’s like “I’ve always wanted to do this because I always wanted to fight i always wanted to do this stuff but I was so scared honestly I was scared that it was going to be something so much different than you guys described today and so what would you say to those people on the outside i right away knew that based on uh how much I knew you and I’m pretty consistent with my my lifting too my my strength and conditioning training and I saw you there year in year out i knew you’re going to be successful in jiu-jitsu so you are doing very well i’m super proud of you thank you i appreciate that professor so yeah yeah yeah i mean just come in you know what I mean come in talk to us like and and be prepared it’s hard you know what I mean that’s what I would say to people is is come in and just try it try it you know what I mean because I like we we’ve said a few times on the podcast jiu-jitsu is for everybody that’s I mean we would love it to be right we and we want to make it as inclusive as possible but not everybody is like that you know what I mean not everybody can go through hard things day in and day out it’s just some people just kind of don’t have that but I would say there is a place for everyone on the map so if you come in and try it what I would say is give me a chance show up to my fundamentals class go to my academy i give me a chance do the fundamentals exactly and show up to my academy if you’re not around find an
academy the coach who is coaching you is very important find out about a little bit more about the coach you know look around see the if the academy is clean you know like what’s the reputation and uh if they have a structure very important and show up show up anything when you first start it sucks it’s hard showing up i have a friend great friend of mine Sig Dr sig um I used to live with him um and he told me uh 50% of success is showing up just getting there yeah and like you said you know you over the years you become an average of the five people that you surround yourself with and uh this guy is a great friend of mine and uh he also told me that so it’s that consistency and I think it really tells a story to the world that is really really important i have a saying on my wall it’s one of my favorite basketball coaches he died of cancer but it says don’t give up don’t ever give up and he formed uh I think he’s raised more money for canco he raised more money for cancer research than anybody else but his whole thing was like we’re just going to show up until we can’t and I think jiu-jitsu is a in a lot of ways is a sum total of we’re just going to show up and see if things change and like we were saying here before you know don’t quit take breaks cuz you get emotionally tired you get physically tired some days you know you’re not at your best but take a little breaks hey I need to I need to take a little break i’m not Let’s say your goal is to compete oh you know I’ve been crashed over and over and over again take a little break spend some more time in the lab in the academy training hanging out getting those uh positive vibes from you know your jiu-jitsu family then okay time to go out there go out there and try again i myself have lost so many times and if it wasn’t for the breaks I don’t think I would be still doing it you know what I mean daniel um maybe can uh back me up on that yeah for sure yeah for sure it’s I mean we say it’s not who’s good it’s who’s left that’s that’s all it is that’s all it is how can you be left you know what I mean keep just keep going you need a break take a break just come back yeah that’s something you guys even iterated to me i mean I mean even Crunchy in the morning I remember when I got injured for six weeks he was like “Hey man just come in and hang out you know just feel the energy feel the vibe huge don’t get too disconnected from that we’d love to see you in even if you’re just sitting here shooting the shit.” And you know Wes did that for a long time it’s just like “I just want to come in here and stay connected with this ecosystem.” Yeah wes did that for like three years
there’s a lot of Wess’s in this world yeah there’s a lot of Wes in this world right but no yeah it’s that’s huge like I think a lot of cuz it’s a combat sport and people get injured you know as we we do a better job I think nowadays of trying to keep people with people that aren’t going to hurt them and minimizing those injuries best we can but it’s a combat sport and it happens so the people who recover from their injuries and come back and continue to train are the people who come back into the gym even when they’re kind of hurt you see people kind of fall off when they don’t well well uh in jiu-jitsu we see injuries as adversity and uh I myself you know in my belt evaluation for belt belt promotion if the person uh you know fights an injury especially at the beginning and they returns that weighs a lot because you know what I mean like it’s a for an advanced person an injury an injury impacts a lot your life your game like let alone for a beginner and uh we have uh multiple uh examples of uh you know injuries injuries are is a possibility you can never rule that out but uh you know one we try to minimize the most we can especially at first having the student attending the fundamentals class Most of the fundamentals class are taught most no all the the fundamentals class at prime are taught by you know students uh professors now they coach that were raised by me they were raised in the gym we’re always talking about you know that so the first three to six months at prime you are learning not perfection you’re learning you’re understanding the rules the fundamentals basic movement so when you start rolling you are a lot more uh you know you understand a lot more uh what what your goals are you can feel it right yeah and the one thing that you guys have is really unique too in the fundamentals now I know coach Cam’s a brown belt but in any other gym he’d be a black belt oh yeah you know and so the only people has been training ever since uh uh year one of prime you know yeah jiu-jitsu is solid as it comes yeah as long as And so in fundamentals you see in a lot of gyms too and I’ve talked to people you know in other gyms if it’s fundamentals you know we got blue belts teaching classes and it’s not bad the blue belts in but you with your fundamentals you make it a point to put some of your best coaches we talk about the same thing over and over again hey you know we’re going to break out of guard hey you know when you’re on your knees don’t turn your toes out cuz you might get a knee injury so we teach them safety also it’s very important you know what I mean and like also some people come in like they they get the vibe that they’re going to fight hey this is not a real fight this is not a bar fight you come in here to learn hey you know you got to have mercy on your partner if you you know what I mean like especially at the beginning you know and um yeah it’s a it’s an art teaching is an art awesome the sport is an art oh yeah very very cool art and I love it and I guess I could end with this and I’m going to continue to bring it up on the podcast is jiu-jitsu and wellness and mental health because it’s so synonymous with what we do here at Peaks Recovery you know folks that are coming in with mental health issues substance use related issues traumatic issues adverse childhood experiences they’ve all experienced what they would consider hell on earth or death and I think what’s really really cool about jiu-jitsu is people that are looking for mental health recovery and who’ve experienced traumatic things they can come in and they can continue to show up one day at a time because I remember going in the morning class like I’ve been to hell and this isn’t it you know one day at a time this one day at a time and that’s a huge saying in recovery goes back to Bill Wilson in 1935 is we just show up 24 hours at a time we put our best foot forward and we let the chips fall where they might and I’m grateful to have landed in a situation today in my life personally professionally um where you guys are in it uh both at Prime and as friends i thank you both for coming on the show and sharing so intimately something that’s so valuable in your life and something that you’re so passionate about um and something that I’ve been able to connect with over the last couple of years uh appreciate each and every one of you until next time we’re definitely going to have a 2.0 um thank you so much for coming on the show today you guys thank you for having me thanks for the opportunity thank you appreciate it thank you Daniel also yeah for sure all production everybody let’s go

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Episode 144The Fighting Mentality – How Failure Becomes Your Greatest SuccessWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/GWlqOBgOXUIListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Chris Burns welcomes Jiu-Jitsu Professor and Coach Daniel Calvert onto the show to talk all things mental strength, discipline, and the value of failure. From looking at what martial arts can provide during developmental years to how self-confidence can flow through a committed and determined training regimen, Daniel and Chris engage in a powerful and energetic conversation. Thank you, Daniel, for joining the show and sharing some of your story and wisdom with us!

Talking Points1. Introduction to the Show 2. Why Jui-Jitzsu? 3. Movement and mental health 4. The importance of your community 5. Showing up during development 6. The influences around you 7. Accepting opportunities 8. The attraction of martial arts 9. Foundational moments for Daniel 10. Final Thoughts Quotes

“This is all about mental health. I feel better every day I show up”. -Chris Burns

Episode Transcripts

Episode -144- Transcriptswe can we get stressed by so many different things you know what I mean for finances relationships everything else throughout life and you can’t turn it off And that’s in fact why I was kind of scared to join in the first place I like we’re just going to go here and fight and all the things And then I learned in my first like 6 days oh this is all about mental health Yeah Cuz I feel better every time I do this Oh yeah I mean just for me like the the amount of mentors the amount of examples that I’ve seen just of people just being good fathers being good husbands you know what I mean being good in their career being hard workers It’s it’s stellar It’s transformative you know [Music] Hey everybody and welcome to another amazing and exciting episode of Finding Peaks Yours truly founder and president Christopher Michael Burns Being joined today by a good friend professor and coach Daniel Calbertt Thanks for being here sir Of course Thanks for having me Absolutely man And we’ve just kind of been on this journey together over the last few podcasts where we’ve just been exploring different variations of mental health and how to inform that and wellness and connected communities And um you know we had a great episode last week with Matt on talking about his experience at Prime Jiu-Jitsu And I’m just really really grateful to have you in the studio today And I want to just start with just a real simple question around jiu-jitsu because I kind of know my why but what was it about that that drew you into it why did you sign up for jiu-jitsu so that’s a good question Um I was it kind of boils down to I was bored So I was right out of I know real riveting right but um I was right out of high school I didn’t have a lot of plans Um so I kind of went to a school with a bunch of bunch of kids who had their plan and they knew what they wanted to be when they grew up or whatever And I was uh after high school I was delivering pizza just trying to figure it out And uh I was an MMA fan growing up so you know watching Uriah Faber and the WEC and whatnot And uh I always thought you know what it’d be cool to try jiu-jitsu And I was just real bored So I was making more money than I was used to because I was working more And um and I just looked into jiu-jitsu and I found out Prime was the closest spot to my house thank God So I just signed up for a free trial class and I did it and I was hooked from that moment Yeah I was like “This is this is awesome.” You know what I mean and I was I mean I was a skinny kid I wasn’t an athlete you know and uh just to go in and like do something that I felt like I could get better at And I it it just scratched the itch you know what I mean it scratched the itch I didn’t know I had And so yeah I just started training That was in 2013 and then never quit So yeah Now jiu-jitsu black belt recently promoted at Prime Brazilian jiu-jitsu by fifth degree black belt professor Marcel Moto That was a huge deal And the way that you speak to that journey is most certainly a mental health journey Yeah absolutely So for me like I said I didn’t have a lot of plans you know what I mean and I didn’t have a lot of confidence and I didn’t have I wouldn’t say that I was like a at rest at risk person necessarily or anything like that but um just to find a discipline and find a community full of people just trying to get better and find ideas and networking and everything else like I don’t think I would have anything that I have if I hadn’t walked through those doors I mean or at least it would be very very different so just it’s a it’s a powerful powerful communitym Mhm to be a part of And so you were you got there at 20 or 19 18 How old uh to prime Yeah Oh I was 19 years old 19 years old Yeah I think so You’re just a kid Yeah I mean 19 years old And I think when you came in was it was it the connection within the gym was it professor himself was it was it a multitude of people that believed in you i mean how did that work for you yeah all of the above honestly You know cuz everybody you know how it is in there And and I will say like I’ve been around other jiu-jitsu schools like I did some time in Toledo I uh and teaching a gym out there The culture of Prime is unique It’s not like not every jiu-jitsu gym is like that They’re not all they don’t all come that way Like the culture of Prime and the instruction and the people it is unique and it is remarkable Uh anyway that being said it was all of the above It’s the discipline It’s the fun of a grappling sport It’s just kind of the raw like primitive uh desire that we have to fight you know what I mean that kind of keeps the people there But it’s also just the quality of people there And it really does start from the top You know I can’t speak highly enough of Marcelo I mean he’s just he’s been a mentor for me since I was a very young man So um it he just attracts good people around him So that’s been a big part of it But um on top of that though I would say an outlet to just improve as much as I can do As much as I can As much as I want to work I can work As much as I want to get better I can get better You know what I mean that’s something There’s something unique about grappling Yeah It’s it’s it’s interesting because we were chatting before the show You make such a good point It’s like because it keeps you coming back There’s no finish line Yeah You don’t you don’t finish Yeah you know whenever you get around that lap there’s another person that’s ready to stop you You know that’s true And so a lot like in in my early stages of recovery a lot of the early stages of people who struggle with substance use they’ll enter into 12step programs and they’ll intentionalize things like integrity and honesty and self-love and respect and these things that you can never fully attain Spirituality connection right and so people are like you never meet the person who’s like I was so integrous today But I could draw into more strength and integrity It’s like and so it keeps you coming back if you want to get better And you want to have this growth cycle similar to jiu-jitsu is like you know I was rolling with a guy the other day and he’s like you’re not that good yet Burns I’m like damn I needed to hear that and needed to feel that you know on a freaking Wednesday Yeah for sure And he’s just messing with one of my good buddies Yeah that’s a that’s a good point you know Um as far as I’ve never thought about it as far as like how character goes but you know if you the easiest way to tell if somebody’s not an honest person is if they’re that guy who’s going to be like you know I’m really really honest If you were you wouldn’t have to tell right you know what I mean like that’s Yeah that’s that’s uh that’s really interesting connection It’s just like you you have to keep doing it keep practicing it And it’s true of jiu-jitsu too I mean to a little I would say to a lesser extent because you could definitely train for a couple of years and then life happens You go off and you know do your thing for however long It’s not like you start over when you come back It’s still there for you But it’s it’s not the same and people pass you and that can be really frustrating The guys who train like you guys you know and some of them train like 10 times a week Mhm If you leave for 10 days you feel that Mhm It’s like a two week thing You’re like damn dude For sure What happened to you you know it does Yeah which is it’s really really cool And I’ve been talking to a lot of people up at the facility Like tonight I’ll go up and I’ll run a a women’s pure group Last week week before last I was doing a men’s pure group and they asked “What do you do for your recovery?” And I talk about grappling and this idea that we’re going to go in and we’re going to share something together Um and it’s going to go one way or another but at the end of it we’re going to slap hands We’re going to talk about life We’re going to talk about communion We’re going to talk about getting better We’re talking about being better fathers husbands boyfriends all of these things that I never thought was going to be a part of it Yeah And that’s in fact why I was kind of scared to join in the first place I like we’re just going to go here and fight and all the things and then I learned in my first like six days oh this is all about mental health Yeah Because I feel better every time I do this Oh yeah Well and and bringing up just talking about life with everybody like it is the the quality of people that are in that gym it’s it’s stellar You know what I mean you can’t you can’t buy that You can’t find that in most places I mean just a uh it’s just a concentration of people who are all there to improve on something And if they’re all there and dedicated to improve on that one thing you got to imagine they’re there to improve They’re in the rest of their life they’re improving in what they’re doing So I mean just for me like the the amount of mentors the amount of examples that I’ve seen just of people just being good fathers being good husbands you know what I mean being good in their career being hard workers it’s it’s stellar It’s transformative Yeah Yeah There’s been so many people to your point where it’s just you know people know that I don’t drink and you know I’m kind of mental health guy I talk a lot about it and Sure Um but I’ve had the opportunity like sit with people like “Hey man they just come up be like “Yeah I haven’t drank in 150 days.” Like dude this is sick And it’s not that anybody said or knew you had a problem It’s just this stuff informs quality of life and growth and thinking about things a bit differently with an exceptional amount of humility you know Absolutely Yeah It’s hard to be It’s hard to be prideful when you’re just getting beat up Yeah absolutely Why do you think you didn’t join i mean obvious when I was a kid like to do jiu-jitsu would have been like this really expensive thing I mean maybe it would have been like one gym in town They probably would have done like mixed martial arts more than anything Uh why do you think you didn’t join jiu-jitsu a little bit earlier like in high school or as a Um I I wouldn’t have had the money for it and I don’t think my parents would have had the extra cash for it either Or I think if most parents knew what they would get out of an environment like that developmentally for their kids I mean the way that my boys look up to you guys and professor like I get to just be a cheerleader Like the consequence in our house is if if you don’t do something we don’t go to jiu-jitsu and I and I’m going tell professor that never happens Yeah Because they’re just like no dad like this is so important to me So important And it’s so important to be able to show up in there be of service to others uh and make them proud man And and and you bring up something so dynamic too They call it um in behavior health they call it child adult relationships but I think young adult and adult relationships are just the same Is that what changed when you got to Prime did you begin as a young man to have really good young adult adult relationships that maybe you didn’t have before that fostered what I can see today which is like a completely different human yeah I think it’s a huge part of it You know what I mean i mean I I attribute it to not really having a plan not really having a direction Um but you know I I without those things without the plan without the direction I walked into a gym where there are all of these people who are you I mean we’re at the end of the day we’re just fighting We’re just grappling each other But you know uh Tim Verala for example is a doctor you know what I mean he was there on my first day in my trial class And it’s funny uh just to kind of segue to a funny story about that uh I was about to throw up Like I was I went hard you know I didn’t have a great lunch I went real hard and on my first day he was excited about it and I was like and I was feeling it You know what I mean and he was in front of me explaining to me what I could do I in fact I think it was he was telling me if I underhook from the half guard I could stand up but I could not focus on that cuz I was just trying not to throw up And I had to stop him and I had to be like “I’m sorry I got to I got to go throw and he was like “Oh okay Go ahead.” But anyway that being said like Tim Tim is a truly like a high level character person you know what I mean just a great That’s a horrible way to say it was but anyway he’s just a great dude you know what I mean and he but he’s a doctor And so an idea that I had shortly after I joined Prime was like well maybe I could I don’t know if I want to go to school to be a doctor but maybe I could work on an ambulance or something And so I looked into that And that was my first career That’s right I was an EMT I rode an ambulance And I mean to have his just to you know pick his brain talk about that with him a little bit Um and have that confidence of okay I do know people who have done this before I do know like I can just go this way and do it And it was great I mean that wasn’t a direct result of Prime but it was huge for my confidence and it was huge to be able to run that by people and talk to them and get an outline and like a career path that I could take potentially Yeah So um I guess I’ve lost track of the question at this point but no but that’s I think what what you hit on there is is is so valuable and so important Professor Tim is one of the most authentic dudes I’ve ever met I mean what who the who am I like he’s always like “Hey Chris how are you?” I mean professor even before like uh worlds like I’m the only white belt night before hey man how you feeling i just want you to know I’m proud Like what all this stuff and like what it does it builds a tremendous amount of confidence in myself you can see in me what I can’t see in myself And I appreciate that That feels good And that’s the team aspect Like it is individual You go out like when you compete especially you go out there on your own to compete and yeah your corner’s there but it is an individual sport But because it is so individual and because you are so hyperfocused on yourself you usually get hyperfocused on your mistakes and your shortcomings And so sometimes it takes somebody else to say “Hey no that you looked really good in this situation You looked really good in this position You’re getting so much better.” You can’t always see it I know It’s the worst when you first start Oh my gosh You just get the smack this snappy out And then you’re like “Great job.” You’re like “Whoa.” Like how And they tell you how Yeah Exactly But no Tim is Tim is a he’s he’s funny as far as like you have to earn it with him a little bit but he’s he’s a pretty good judge of character in my experience So he’ll once he knows that you’re like real and you’re like good and you’re a good person he’s he’s got your back He’s in your corner I mean last you competing what are you doing how you doing you know that kind of thing But before that I think he he doesn’t love it when uh people like expect that right away or they they are feel entitled to that And so you’ll see him maybe not have the best relationships with some of those people But he is Yeah he is he is an authentic dude for sure And then you got you know his counterpart Professor Alli I mean all of you are just absolute leaders in that gym and and foster just a an ecosystem that really anybody can feel a part of Yeah And that’s what’s really really special And the fact that like I wish we had pictures man And we’re gonna get them when professor comes on on the 24th Beach was showing me all these pictures of like old prime It’s like this book in the morning like a few weeks ago and you’re all over it So we want to get for the next one when he comes we want to get some because this really is a developmental life-changing journey for you Oh it’s huge Yeah Now you you spoke about you know moving from kind of delivering pizzas into driving ambulances Mhm What are you doing now so now I teach at Prime and I manage my forplex Yeah So now you’re into commercial real estate Real estate residential real estate Yeah And that’s something that you’re looking to that’s something you’ve taken on as a result of connections at Prime that really helped you get to that position Yeah So um I I started to ah how far back do I have to go to um I thought it would be a good idea to get some kind of a multif family home when I was coming back from Toledo So just to give you a quick uh in 2019 I moved from here to Toledo to teach at the jiu-jitsu school out there um to try to do jiu-jitsu full-time Uh about two and a half years I did that and then I came back And when I was coming back I was coming back off of an injury off of some financial hardship And so I was making plans For me I’m not and I attribute this 100% to jiu-jitsu but I’m I’m not a wallower I’m a progressor What’s next what where are we going what direction are we headed in so I was making a plan I was thinking to myself you know what it might be cool to put away some money and then when it’s time to buy property buy a multif family home I was thinking duplex at the time Um and I just in fact Angelo who’s also at the gym who I roommed with for a little while I ran that idea by him and he was like you know you should talk to Jay who’s another morning class guy at Jiu-Jitsu who’s a lender and an accomplished real estate investor himself And so I talked to Jay and we came up with a plan to not and we he suggested go forplex instead of duplex Okay you know what I mean higher returns higher cash flow higher equity building Um and we came up with a plan and about a year and a half later we executed it And in that time I’ve known the Mills family for a long time because their kids have trained forever Um but I did not know that Matt was an accomplished real estate investor and I didn’t know he was finishing uh his real estate brokerage license I just happened to be talking about it with him after a Sunday training one day and he was like “Oh I’m just about to finish my real estate broker or my uh real estate broker’s license Uh maybe I can help you out with it.” And I was like “You know what i trust this guy.” You know what I mean i don’t have a realtor lined up so I I’ll give this guy a shot is what I thought Which is so funny because that guy knows more than he he I know like 2% of what that guy knows about real estate You know what I mean so but he was a instrumental resource as far as that And so a about a year and a half after coming up with a plan with Jay we’re closing on a forplex We did close on a forplex and now it’s like floating me you know what I mean and now you’re back to doing jiu-jitsu mostly full-time Yeah I’m doing jiu-jitsu pretty much full-time and then um managing the forplex Trying to get some other um opportunities through real estate here too But you know I mean when you kind of like just I’ll do it like I’ll reverse out of that story and like look at it for what it is man It’s a at 30 years old to be sitting here you know it’s a testament to family community and culture most certainly But to see that growth journey in that period of time is often synonymous with what I talk about the greatest recovery tool for anybody struggling with mental health or just looking for quality of life improvement It’s community It’s community And I’ll tell you what that’s just the financial side of things I think it’s Billy if you ever get to talking to him another morning class guy another just paragon of a human Just incredible incredible dude Um business owner himself but he talks about you have to be right financially physically spiritually Like that’s those are the thing And he may have one more I’m trying to remember Yeah Those gems he just gives you on the side Yeah randomly you know what I mean because he’s your goofball Y but he’ll just he’ll spit some real wisdom U but yeah No So and just the I mean that’s that’s financially that’s how it’s affected me has been just through that process Physically it’s probably more dramatic if you can believe it When I started training I was same height about 6’2 150 pounds little bean pole you know what I mean like I said I was a skinny kid and I mean through jiu-jitsu and the habits that I’ve built having to have had to build to to uh just survive in this sport I’m like 205 210 something like that Like those pictures would blow people away man Yeah Whoa For sure It’s not the same guy It’s dramatic Yeah it’s dramatic I had one of the guys I don’t think he trains there anymore Um his name was John Harten and I believe he’s moved since but okay He was he was a staple of the gym for a while but he about I don’t know a couple of years ago I saw him I was talking to him and he was like “Yeah I remember you walked in just a pencil neck nerd.” I was like “All right All right man Come on We don’t have to hurt my feelings.” Yeah It’s interesting you say that though because I was talking to somebody the other day about their experience with grappling and they’re tall guy They’re like 6’2 6’3 They were talking about like you know I didn’t know that I could stand up this tall you know like I was always kind of live life a little bit hunched over you know a little bit down When I started jiu-jitsu I realized well I can actually see over everybody because it does this thing that’s informed by community that builds a level of confidence and there’s a level of confidence that like you know that you can take care of yourself too And a lot of the folks that come through our program have been hurt by people that should have taken care of them and been hurt by people that are close to them or have been hurt by people in community and experienced traumatizing events because unfortunately they were vulnerable and couldn’t stand on their own two feet And so I think there’s a level of presence that can be created through being where your feet are And I think one of the greatest ways to do that is to get into a community like Prime because if you’re not where your feet are you’ll know it so fast you know and and I think that’s that’s like the game of life is like if I cannot be stuck in the past or way off in the future I can get [ __ ] done today you know and I think jiu-jitsu more than anything more than any recovery tool I’ve ever learned Like the other day I was stressing out Monday I was like I got to go I got to get choked today It’s got to happen for sure You know because I mean for as powerful as the community is and it is I the in its essence jiu-jitsu is combat It’s fighting And if you are if you’re fighting you can’t be anywhere else You know what I mean i think that’s why people love it as much as they do And and it’s kind of it’s kind of shocking when you try it and when you do it like for the first your trial classes you either can’t handle it or you’re like hooked You know what I mean like it’s dramatic And I think that’s why I think it’s just we can we get stressed by so many different things You know what I mean finances relationships everything else throughout life and you can’t turn it off You know what I mean like you’re hooked up You’re you’re just attached to this all the time You know what I mean and the the world is just moving more and more that direction But to be able and I think that’s powerful to put that down even if it’s an hour and a half or two hours Yeah is great But and then you have to be really present You can’t think about much when you got Adam Wheeler trying to pass your guard You know what I mean you can’t think about too much when you got big Jake putting you in a triangle choke You’re right there You’re there You’re present You want to talk about present that’s present You need to be So I think I think in its essence that’s why it can be so healthy mentally It really is And it’s interesting you say that because you know I I’d watched UFC for years and you see how many people get into mixed martial arts that have like these really crazy stories And there’s something about the sport MMA jiu-jitsu that takes these very intense stories and just allows them to fit into the stream of life you know so much better than before you know whether it’s um I think Kane Velasquez was in recovery too I think he’s actually going through a big thing right now But yeah I think he just got sentenced Yeah that’s sad That is sad Very very sad But a lot of these people have like given up drugs and alcohol and pursued this thing And some of them are some of the best in the sport some I think uh Potan um Oh yeah I think he was I think he was an alcoholic and now he’s like I mean I guess he’s not a UFC champion anymore but he was two division UFC champ Yeah What what is it about it attracts so many people and it doesn’t have to be addiction It attracts people with just such dynamic stories I mean everybody I’ve sat I didn’t even Everybody I’ve sat down with has like this this thing that they can draw on that they bring into them with the gym and has to do a lot with why they show up and who they are They’re big stories you know and I think you hit the nail on the head I think a lot of times it has to do with trauma especially at a high level Yeah Now with the kids who come in you and just get the tools that that they need to succeed at life where you’re getting ahead of it Yep You know what I mean you’re getting ahead of it before they have to experience something before they have to like go through hell You’re giving them the tools to succeed at life which is great That’s what we want to do But I think um I think some people are just and and maybe it’s through environment or maybe it’s through um just how they how they’re wired but I think some people’s brains just work a little differently than than a lot of people’s than than the majority of people’s And I think some of them are highlevel professional athletes fighters whatever else I think some of them are in prison and I think some of them are homeless Yeah I think those people have their brains are just wired differently Again maybe a lot of it I’m sure is trauma Um but combat sports jiu-jitsu MMA all these things can be can be a healthy outlet for that Yeah you know and some sometime or a coping me mechanism I usually call it you know what I mean it’s they’re not necessarily dealing with it They’re not necessarily dealing with whatever made them the way that they are but if they have the right community around them the right coaching around them the right outlet they can do something productive with it Yeah You know what I mean but I and that that environment I to your point is everything And I love what you said about the kids because that’s that’s my whole thing I I at some point I want to get into like adolescent treatment or nonprofit high school stuff cuz like my right leg was tapping I couldn’t sit still and I kept hitting people before I ever touched a substance Sure Somebody had been like “Hey bro I think you’re a little bit wired funky We can help you with this.” Yeah Then we would have got in front of it And to your point about prime and the developmental stages and kids I have never met such welladjusted 16 17 and 18 year olds Then kids have come out of prime Brazilian jiu-jitsu and have been there for the last 5 to 10 years Yeah I didn’t know kids like that existed I mean it’s incredible Like drinking they’re like I can’t drink I gotta train It’s not that you know whatever It’s just It’s so cool It is cool It is cool to see It’s cool to see And we’ve we’ve seen a couple of crops at this point of of those teenagers transitioning into adulthood Um and not all of them stick with jiu-jitsu which is okay Yeah You know what I mean because they get the tools They learn to be bad at something and to get better and they learn to set a goal and to be happy when it works out and disappointed when it doesn’t and to sit with that You know what I mean and that’s that’s a life skill that a lot of people don’t have Yeah And so much easier to learn that lesson with like a something outside of your home I mean what a cool thing because I was talking to Matt about it last week It’s like a lot of what’s happened is um kids in our environment don’t know how to fail And when you don’t know how to fail and then you have these big failures at 18 or 19 or 20 we just put our head in the sand and we can’t move forward and it really detracts from our mental health And so if we can introduce failure every week Oh yeah And so there’s not a lot of ways you can do that But now we have this thing and like again it’s just man people are taking their kids to counseling at you know 10 11 12 I’m like and we have therapy I’m like dude take them to jiu-jitsu Mhm You know get them moving and grooving If they got ADD or something like that I think it’s an awesome opportunity for sure to expel some of that energy For sure And you I mean the the results are just you know we see the results in the morning class all the time but yeah it’s it’s good It’s good to see them It’s good to see how how well they develop Um and we as coaches you know what I mean sometimes we get disappointed We get disappointed because we think there’s these kids that and we’re very focused We’re hyperfocused on jiu-jitsu That’s all we’re doing right all the other things is a side effect the uh development and everything else But we see these kids who have a talent for jiu-jitsu And we think “Oh man if this kid sticks with it you know he’s 12 years old and he knows all this jiu-jitsu If he sticks with it when he’s 22 he might be a world champion.” Yeah And it’s like the reality is when when that kid gets to 17 and 18 and he goes off to college or he goes and does something else or he whatever it might be we have this uh instinct to be disappointed because we’re like “Oh a wasted potential.” And it’s not at all You just taught that kid the skills to go do whatever he wants to learn whatever he wants And I’ll tell you right now there are way more productive things to be than a champion in jiu-jitsu Yeah You just taught that young person how to stand up tall in the world 100% I could leave even after just two years I I feel like I could leave jiu-jitsu which I won’t because I’m addicted But I could leave jiu-jitsu today and I would live my life completely different for the rest of my life Mhm I mean so many different ways For sure You know I think that’s true And and it’s even more dramatic for kids Yeah It’s like in their DNA Absolutely And it’s just that just that ability that’s lost We live in this world that’s moving more and more to this this uh mindset of you should just be given everything You know what I mean you shouldn’t have to work for anything You shouldn’t have to struggle with anything And I’m that as much as we want that to be the world that’s never going to be the world Yeah And I think it really and I understand environmentally why a lot of parents and people think that like that’s where we need to be but it is pulling away from the ability for kids to get their feet under them you know and if they don’t get their feet under them by the time they leave the house like me they’re going to fall in their face And so there’s not a lot of things right now that can really get your feet under your kids from a community- based perspective There’s a lot of intensity There’s a lot of fear depending on where you live this that and the other thing But there is some things that are really tried and true and authentic and uh prime Brazilian jiu-jitsu is absolutely one of those for sure you know For sure It really is What would you say your greatest moment um maybe we’ll end with this but what would you say your greatest moment at Prime has been maybe it’s in competition maybe it’s a story maybe it’s you helping someone else Probably the best moment at Prime was getting my black belt tied by Marcelo like just the amount of work that went into that and the amount of trust that I felt from him to for him to do that [Music] Um that was probably that was probably it I would say Um now as far as that was huge there and the way that you spoke to it that’s kind of why how I got you on the podcast was because it was like man that meant a lot to you Yeah Yeah It meant a lot It meant a meant a lot Like I said I trained in uh in Toledo I had I had worked out there and and ran a gym and everything and I could have got my black belt at some point from from Dante out there Um which would have meant which would have been meaningful Sure It would have been meaningful for sure but it wouldn’t have been the same um just in that like I know how highly Marcelo regards it and I’ve seen who Marcelo is for so long and just what kind of a human he is and how much I’ve looked up to him since I was barely not a kid anymore You know what I mean and so that was it meant a lot Yeah Um that was cool to be a part of and then Billy had this thing too Yeah It was it was good and it was and I mean just to your what we keep bringing up the community like to be able to look across the room and see these people that you know have been with me some of them since day one you know some of them just a couple of years you know what I mean but um yeah it was a cool it was a cool moment My whole family was there too which was nice That’s super cool Um yeah that that’s probably my best my favorite memory at Prime thus far But there’s there’s so many Yeah you were uh sharing with me one time too and I was grateful to be there for that But you you’re sharing with me one time I think I think it was you about drive home from somewhere and professor was there and maybe you were in the back seat and he’s like I think you can be a world champ Right
And I don’t think it was about being a world champ I think it was about where you’re sitting today Yeah Like that message that belief that somebody’s like I can go somewhere that I can’t even see but you can see it for me Yeah And on that journey you just happen to be sitting here now Like that’s it’s so much bigger man Yeah For sure That’s for sure Yeah I remember that I still remember that Yeah Um Yeah it was cool It was and that was that was I wouldn’t say that’s the first time I felt like Marcela believed in me but that was like a big that was a big thing for him to say That was a that was a statement Yeah for sure And I was that meant a lot And it really kind of informed the next couple years of my life because I I after that I started competing I mean like 15 times a year trying to just trying to be the best I could be And that led to me getting selected to go you know go off and be an instructor and a competitor out in Toledo And um I’ll tell you about that too I got the call for that and I got I was driving I was on the phone with the guy who was recruiting me Um not Dante actually It was Gutenberg Pereira Okay Who ended up leaving shortly after I got there But um and then I and then I developed a much closer relationship with Dante and we you know we’re boys at this point But um anyway when Gutenberg was recruiting me I was on the phone with him I was driving to the gym I parked and I saw Marcelo getting in the gym and I got off the phone with Gutenberg and I got out of the car and I told Marcelo what’s going on I told him I was like “Hey I just got this opportunity to go be part of this team this team of adult like professional athletes.” And I remember him tell the way he worded it and this is something you learn about him kind of just knowing him and everything is sometimes he doesn’t say exactly what he means in the moment but he’s going to tell you he’s going to tell you what he means but sometimes in the moment he doesn’t quite have the words but he’s going to tell you something right and so I told him that and he was like okay okay if that’s what you feel like you need to do I support you know what I mean which is if you if you look at that at face value you think like “Oh wow He’s upset He’s mad right sure.” You know what I mean he’s kind of short with it But over the next couple of weeks that I was there before I moved he could not have been more supportive I was leaving his gym I was leaving his team I was kind of leaving like I would had been helping coach kids and everything else And I was leaving a little bit of a void in that way And he could not have been supportive That’s correct you know the depending on how you want to look at it I in a way I had said this isn’t enough for me What you have here isn’t enough for me And he was supportive Yeah And that’s cool That’s a big deal That’s a big deal I remember he rolled with me maybe a week after that or a couple weeks after that shortly before I was supposed to leave Um we got done with the round and he was like “Hey man I wish you all the best I know you’re going to go far.” And I was just like sick and to have his and every time I came back home I was I texted him I was like “Hey I’m gonna come train.” He’s like “Awesome It’d be great to see you.” You know what I mean every time I saw him at a tournament he was he was nothing but supportive Yeah Over that And and it ended up working out I came back and now we like work together more closely And it’s and it’s been good That must have been tough for you though too I mean having to go to someone like you know one of your heroes and mentors and say “Hey I’m going to go do this thing.” You know it’s a good thing I didn’t wait It was a good thing I got off the phone and was getting out of the car That’s what I love about it man is you were just clear honest authentic Generally that’s pretty pretty received well Yeah Yeah That’s the best way to do it I think Yeah And even if it’s not you know what I mean even if it’s not received well it’s worth being that way Mhm Absolutely Yeah I think the way you know I um I have this quote and I don’t know if it’s like a quote of someone else but I always say it in my head I always say what we do most days matters the most you know and not to like sit in shame on some days what we do that isn’t the greatest you know I didn’t wake up on time but what because what I do most days matters the most and you’re a great reminder of that Not only uh professionally but personally in community at Prime you’ve been a huge help to me I mean even bro I know I said it like in kind of passing but even like I literally leave the gym one day on a Friday and when the class is over you’re texting me “You are all good you all good bro i’m like “Hey I’m in a music festival man I thought I told you.” You’re like “All right cool.” Like what that means to me man is is incredible And I thank you for that I thank you for coming on the show today and sharing so authentically with our viewers on like what wellness can mean in a little bit different context I’m going to continue to push that for people that are struggling with mental health and people that are really just looking for quality quality quality of life improvements through their communities So really appreciate you man For sure Thanks for having me I appreciate it Absolutely And we will be filming another episode We’re gonna bring professor on um the 24th April 24th So look out for that episode Until next time appreciate y’all Peace [Music] [Applause] [Music]

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Episode 143Strength in Struggle and Fighting for Mental ResilienceWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/q_aQzHSgoGQListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Chris Burns welcomes personal friend, veteran, fighter, and mental health advocate Matt Mills onto the show to bring focus and intention to a needed conversation surrounding mental health and how fitness and sports can improve quality of life immensely. From looking into strengthening communities and connections to hearing a powerful piece of Matt’s story, this episode shows the importance of dedication to life. Thank you, Matt, for sharing so vulnerably and continuing to fight every day!

Talking Points1. Introduction to the Show 2. Meet Matt 3. Strengthening community 4. Getting good at failing 5. Athletics during development 6. A piece of Matt’s story 7. Overcoming the odds 8. Dedication to life 9. Plan for difficulty, set up for success 10. A powerful recovery story 11. Final thoughts Quotes

“When kids are in sports, there is a very good chance they will fail. And I think failure is such an important part of [growing up]. You are going to go and put yourself out there, and you may win or you will lose, and that is the amazing part about it”-Matt Mills

Episode Transcripts

Episode -143- Transcripts-even kids are in sports there is a very good chance they’re going to fail Yeah And I think I think failure is such an important part of that I get the gift of sitting around people with tremendous life experiences and I just get to listen Mental health is is absolutely important and you’re going to find help and community in in that So I you know I want to destigmatize it by talking about it [Music] Hey everybody and welcome to another amazing and exciting episode of Finding Peaks Yours truly president and founder of Peaks Recovery Centers Christopher Michael Burns Joined today by a good friend colleague professional you name it where we bring on amazing professionals but even better humans We have Matt Mills here today Matt thanks for joining us today Thank you Thanks for having me on Absolutely man And I you know lately I’ve been kind of I haven’t really talked to Cove about it but I’ve been thinking about bringing on a series where we just bring on thoughtful conversations that matter Yeah You know and um I’ve had the opportunity to know you for the last couple of years and kind of want to start with where we met because it’s an exciting topic for me Yeah Well for me too Yeah And that’s in the jiu-jitsu gym And I’ve been talking a lot about the jiu-jitsu gym and framing it in the context of just authentic opportunistic and connected community So much so that in a couple weeks here we’re going to be bringing on professor um and professor DC as well But um why did you join jiu-jitsu i think this is really telling because uh what we do here at Peaks Recovery is engage people in communities and allow them for a moment maybe the first moment in their life to experience something so authentic that you get to experience every day and that’s being seen valued and heard What was that like and why did you do it well why I joined started out I mean actually um it was why my kids joined first So we’d been listening to the podcast and my sons were younger at the time like nine and 10 and I mean at then that age they’re tiny you compared to they’re monsters now you know Yeah Uh so we you know we had been listening to Jaco and he’s like you got to do Jaco Willink and he’s like you got to do jiu-jitsu Everybody’s got and the boys were like dad let’s go do jiu-jitsu That sounds like fun And so um it was at a time where like they were trying out different things and I was like “Guys I don’t know I don’t know anything about this.” I said “We could do something.” And I and I said “Let’s talk about it.” And they I made them ask me for like six months And then one day in the summer time it was like April or No it was coming into summer and I was like “Let’s just go down to the this gym prime and let’s try it out.” And so we signed up Uh Cam was there No there was a somebody else was there who was a brown belt at the time I can’t remember his name He ended up going to another gym but he was there and we signed up the boys and that was six or seven years ago Okay And so no wonder they’re so good Yeah Yeah Exactly And so we So then we were for three years we were jiu-jitsu parents just watching Just watching Okay We’d go and we’d we’d just watch and then I’d see all these adults do it and I’m like that’s that’s nuts That’s awesome And then eventually my wife and I were like you know what we we we were like I was actually at a pretty low point in my life I was struggling because I was my career I was I was trading uh for a prop firm before that and my career was like was petering out I was like not having a lot of success and I was feeling down and I was like I couldn’t find a home and so I was like you know and I’ve been going to the gym quite a bit so I was getting in better shape and I’d come off an a shoulder injury and then I use that as an excuse of why I didn’t start jiu-jitsu when the boys did Yeah I get that But you know that’s really not the reason Yeah And then so then my wife was like “Well I’m doing it.” I was like “Great I’ve got to do it then.” So then she went on Friday night I went on to Saturday morning Talon tapped me out like six times that first role And uh and I was hooked I was like “That’s it was just incredible.” And so we just I mean and then ever since then it wasn’t even a discussion We’re doing jiu-jitsu And there was like that first year I was at two days a week and I was dying every time Just like two days a week Yeah Just getting killed And just getting Yeah Just getting killed my my joints were killing me Everything was hurting Ice and then I was like “Okay I need to get focused on recovery I need to get focused on getting in better shape.” And then I mean it was just it was rough And then you know over time now I’m at like five six days a week of training And I I just love it And now I’m I’m a blue belt and it took you know that took time and I’m having fun Yeah So it it got us there Like once we started it wasn’t a question It was like we’re doing this and it wasn’t like I’m going to give it a try This is This is who we are now Now all four of us do jiu-jitsu We all four compete and we all I mean we fly That’s We stopped skiing We stopped snowboarding I love this Yeah We win We We That’s all we do We take one vacation a year that’s not jiu-jitsu I love how you piggyback some off of the jiu-jitsu things too Yeah It’s great Yeah Yeah You know since we’re here Yeah Since we’re here Yeah Since we’re going to be in Florida we’ll stay an extra day and go to the beach Yeah For pants Exactly Yeah I thought that was pretty cool Maybe we’ll do that next year Yeah It’s uh it’s it’s really really cool something that I was thinking of while you were talking as you were sitting there kind of being jiu-jitsu parents What was it you know some of the things that really get in the way of growth and thriving for young people that we had the opportunity to engage with are really really tough developmental stages of their life of which there’s not a lot of good child adult relationships around You I I know through putting my kids in jiu-jitsu but I want to ask you that first three years what was it about prime what was it about community what was it about the people that you really saw an impact through your kids because I get to sit with them now Yeah And I can speak to that most certainly in the last couple of years But what was it that you saw was so beneficial for young people Everyone who starts jiu-jitsu sucks at jiu-jitsu There is I I don’t care if you’re a D1 wrestler like Tyler you know or or if you’re you know you know a black belt in karate like I don’t know if you know the older guy Steve Yep Yeah But I mean everybody who starts jiu-jitsu sucks at it And you all you go out and if you go compete when you suck at something you’re going to you’re going to lose And they kept losing for years They lost Jack and Cus can you imagine them losing now not much And I mean they lost every single time getting their butts kicked just every single time we just go and we like oh man I feel so bad And it was the response to that It was like hey that’s jiu-jitsu Get out there and keep going Push yourself That’s good I see it in you You got it That was the response from Cam and from coach or from coach Cam and from professor Marcelo that and that happened every single time and from all the other professors that went and coached everybody everybody who there the whole time they’re like no big deal move on and I think that kids need that like they’re scared to fail but in jiu-jitsu you’re gonna fail for a long time and then even when you win you’re gonna fail again Yeah And so that’s what you start to learn this life lesson that we talked about before which is like failure is a part of this process Yeah Failure is part of life and you’ve got to get good at failing Yeah I was talking to Jay the other day which is another jiu-jitsu friend Yeah And and we were talking about our jobs because a lot of times in our jobs like I’m a real estate agent and he’s a mortgage broker and a lot of times you know we we we don’t get the deal done and we fail and it’s like okay that’s that’s fine We got to just we can’t we got to keep moving That’s what’s great about jiu-jitsu and life and everything is because it’s it really does reflect life as you know you’re going to fail and you got to pick yourself up and keep going What are you gonna do quit you know that that’s just not an option for me Right It’s not an option especially if we if we’re trying to drive into what is so important which is today And and I I love what you talk about in the failure piece as it pertains to kids and the developmental stages of life I think sometimes we miss that opportunity today to really engage with that and wrestle with that And to your point so long as we’re putting you know Coupe said before the show you know we’ll be the sum total of the seven closest people around us instantly as we thrust into community you know professor and Cam and some of these uh adults young adults and mature adults become these connected connective tissue if you will to the family system and really foster and engage growth one day at a time You know it’s so interesting because when I got into recovery at 22 years old I had none of not a lot of that growing up And and so they said “Go to Alcoholics Anonymous.” And I’m like “Well I don’t want to go to Alcoholics Anonymous.” It doesn’t make sense But I show up there They keep saying never give up They say one day at a time They say keep coming back They’re great humans There is failure because it’s a part of life but we show up 24 hours at a time and we put our best foot forward And I just love that your kids have the opportunity I got a question for you I know this is your podcast but I I love it Uh when you were in high school were you in a sport you were Yeah And did what what sport was that if you Basketball and football Basketball Football Okay Now I mean you had And so you had did you have a very positive coach in that experience And a lot of times it was it was like that one bright light that I had Okay I remember on my uh my junior year right into my chemistry You’re going to love this People are going to love this I actually have a college degree as well Um but so on my chemistry final junior year I remember my mom um was addicted My dad wasn’t in the picture My mom had actually came to me that year and said and and bless her heart it was just where we were at Um she’s like “Hey I just don’t have anywhere for you to live this year I don’t know what I don’t know what to tell you.” And I said “Well I’m um I’m going into my senior year Mom This is crazy You know it’s nuts.” So I’m sitting with a buddy and anyway I ended up living with him my senior year Prior to that I’m sitting there on this chemistry final and I know the chemistry final is going to inform football season next year Like I have to get a C on this thing But I look at the material and I know none of it So I write a letter to Miss Rom Miss Rom’s a friend of mine on Facebook Oh yeah Yeah I know Miss Rom Like I was like I’ve already wrote her “You do not know what you’ve done for me as a sober adult.” Yeah So I write this thing and I said “Miss Rahm the only thing good in my life the only thing that I’m looking forward to the only thing that gives me any hope is playing football and playing basketball with my friends I understand if you all need to take that away because I have bad grades and I don’t show up and I have 48 absences and it’s part of the rules and I understand that I respect the rules But Mr Rom if you take this away I’ll lose everything I won’t graduate high school I won’t care about having a place.” I’m just being very honest if I can’t play football and I can’t be here that’s what I do She gave me a C minus She gave a C minus She gave me a C minus That was a gift And it was a gift from God Yeah And I got help And so there was people who showed up on my path Talk about community The Miss Roms the basketball coaches the football coaches the coach KMartis where I would look up and just say “I’ll do anything you tell me to.” Yeah Because I trust and believe in you so much Well and it’s what’s interesting about that is is you know in life when you go when when kids are in sports there is a very good chance they’re going to fail Yeah And I think I think failure is such an important part of that It’s like that that you know you go and put yourself out there you’re going to win or you’re going to lose and it’s and in but what’s amazing about that is the process and a lot of other aspects of life there’s not it’s not the clear line That’s why kids need sports I you know they need some sort of sport Yeah They need to be put themselves out there fail They need to win They need to win sometimes they need to lose sometimes They need to understand how that works because that’s life It creates it really instantaneously Yeah It’s like Cove you know he’s like this lacrosse player doing all these things shattered his knee It’s junior year you know he’s going to do this that and the other thing All these and so you get really what happens with sports too is we get really overoupled with it and engaged with it And then we get into these identity and purpose issues but that’s life But then it breaks it away and makes you do something else Exactly Because you can’t you can’t be just one place Exactly And that’s life And I think it’s important to experience that inflection point Jiu-jitsu sports and those things do it I’ve been I’ve been quoted lately of being like man I talk my kids out of ball sports all the time Yeah Yeah Because I just you get so much more of the physicality Talk about what we do Yeah The sematic opportunity to release in community sometimes when you put hands on each other And and I know it happens in yoga and it happens but a lot of times in mixed martial arts you have this community and I think it’s very rare to have a community where we go in I couldn’t believe it when I first started Yeah That like at 6:30 a.m I’m like signing this waiver I’m like these dudes are killing each other But they’re like best friends Yeah It’s like they would do anything for each other They look like they’re going to kill each other They bring themselves to that and then and then they’re like hugging afterwards laughing about it It’s so beautiful saying “Dude that was awesome It was It’s so cool.” And that’s very I think that’s a very um unique thing to mix martial arts or maybe it’s specific to our gym or Brazilian jiu-jitsu or whatever it may be But to be able to like really put some force on somebody and then release it and then give them a hug and tell them to have a great day man Yeah And wish them well and you know that they believe it and mean it Yeah That’s a really cool thing to be a part of It’s a I don’t it’s hard to put a word on how that what that is Yeah Because it’s it’s something different That’s that’s for sure Yeah The only thing I can relate it to is something that I say all the time and it’s that it’s that piece where you know it’s nice to be seen valued and heard in your family And some sometime oftenimes that’s synonymous with a good healthy family system but it’s a whole different bag of worms to experience that in community Yeah To be real valued in community And I think a lot of times that’s what a lot of our clients struggle with is they they have been devalued in community because they’ve been attached to kind of the a wrong community or a negative community or their family itself is a bad community Exactly Yeah How did you you know Matt comes from a huge family um eight siblings Yeah Well seven siblings Seven siblings Eight kids in Yeah Eight kids in their family You know and everybody chooses different communities and engages with different things How have you steered clear or how have you potentially been a part of these negative communities and found your way out of them to be sitting where you’re at today that’s a great question
Um I’ve always felt like this push away from that negative that negative behavior And so whether it be you know just talking bad about people or um or you know doing the wrong things you know drinking too much or doing drugs or anything like that I’ve always just felt like this is not right This is dragging me down I need to be better and I’m not trying to be I’m not I don’t need to be better than other people I just need to be better for myself Yeah And I’ve always kind of felt like that And so like when I after my family community you know I joined the Navy and I joined the submarine force That’s right Yeah Yeah And I tell you that that could be good and bad community right there Yeah I mean you pull into port that’s a bad community Yeah Because you’re drinking way too much You know I see it could be good it could be bad you know but there’s there’s multiple communities on a submarine too You know there’s there’s there’s Ford guys which called coners and there’s nukes which in the engine room we called we were nukes And even within that there’s all these little separate communities all these separate tribes And so you know I fell prey to that I I was part of the bad community I went out and drank too much encouraged people to drink and and you know it it it affected me It affected my health And then you know so but eventually I had to I felt like and I don’t know what it was that I just decided I’m going to put this down Did you go to college did you go to Navy the Navy at 18 At 18 Okay 17 actually Jeez Yeah Dang Yeah Yeah I went to boot camp and then um in Orlando and then I stayed there for power school and then I went and then I went to prototype in South Carolina Then I went to San Diego and stayed there for eight years Cool So I was on the Salt Lake City for uh five straight years Then I went to shore duty and then they found out that I was going to get out So they sent me right back out to sea as an LPO and I got to do another deployment finish out my last year So how many years were you in 10 years six months and 23 days and four hours He’s like I remember I think it was right around four or five hours but it was different time zones So yeah you bring up a good point too And what was that transition like out of there that was tough I mean honestly I got out and I didn’t have I was a drift for a long time Like well you know I was going to hike the Pacific Crush Trail So I I had that goal So that was my first thing I was going to do So I had this whole plan I laid it all out I got my food all boxed up I got everything ready to go And then the night before I went I went down to Mexico with my buddies and we went and I ate this ate at this uh Brazilian steakhouse Oh no And I got up the next day and I was like “I’m good I’m good I’m sorry.” And we went we drank way too much that night And so they dropped me off at the trail and I’m hiking by myself Way like 60 pounds on my back and I had not hiked but more than a few miles I get about five miles in and I start throwing up and I’m crapping myself and I’m throwing up and I had food poisoning Oh my god So I hiked another 15 miles and I was like Yeah it was rough I I I stayed the night I finished the the next day I stepped I stepped over a um a rattlesnake that morning Scared the poop out of me And then and then um I called a friend up and said “I’m done.” And they they’re like “What?” And I was like “You don’t understand the night I just had.” Yeah And you know that was that was a big failure for me So I was really that was like my first big goal right after I got out of the Navy and I just fell flat on my face But then I got I decided all right I’m going to leave San Diego So I moved to Fort Collins and that’s where Robin and I met Oh okay And so so Robin in in a sense she really helped me there because we started dating like five minutes after I moved to town Literally I love it You’re like “Hey.” She helped me move my stuff into my storage unit We knew each other in high school We dated in high school Oh okay Cool But we back when I was 15 and now we’re 30 Wow And so we So we started dating and then um I I got a job right away I got an apartment and then um we got engaged We bought an engagement ring three weeks after we started dating Cool And we you know we were engaged a couple and then we got so that we our first date was September 11th 2005 And we were married in May of 2006 Oh wow Yeah Sweet And we’ve been married coming up on Yeah 18 and a half years Little love at first sight Well not really first sight Yeah I always tell Cass I was like “I love you.” She’s like “Yeah right.” But it was it was like I mean we were connected That’s cool And she you know big backpacker So she’s been in like grad school or something She What’s that was she in grad school when you got No she was she had just finished medical school and residency and she was actually in her first practice Oh wow And I was going to college I started going to college and I and I was working a job at a factory Okay And then we then we moved to Indiana and then so I then we had once we started having kids I stayed at home with the kids and I kind of put college and everything on pause and I actually never finished college Um but then I I had worked I’d worked my way into the financial markets and I’d gotten into that into that career later on Yeah But for a long time I just I stayed at home with the boys and I homeschooled them Yeah How long did they homeschool all the way through the grade All the way through seventh grade Okay Cool Yeah Yeah I really love that setup that you have for him now That’s a Yeah that’s a killer situation where they kind of have a hybrid schedule and and I have a unique situation with my sons like like where we we’re really close sometimes a little too close Yeah No I think it’s it’s it’s the right amount you know It’s interesting man And um I was I thought to myself was I going to bring this up today and I am now Um but your son came to me the other day We train you know we train on Tuesdays They show up at 6 a.m They get in the plunge Um it’s cool to be a part of Um I love that type of energy I love that type of discipline I love that type of integrity where you show up early stay late you just move into the world with some pace And your son’s doing a school project where he’s like “Hey my school is having me pick someone I think that’s living the American dream.” And uh I didn’t know this Yeah Yeah And he and he said I just think makes me emotional kind of talking about it because you know I would have never been asked that Yeah Yeah 20 years ago And you know I even told my wife and I was like “Man I can’t believe I was like “That’s really cool.” You know she’s like “That’s awesome.” And it’s like it’s interesting because I look at his father and I think that’s someone I would consider to be living the American dream because you you come out of situations and adversity and difficult things and no matter what we just we just show up It’s this very recoveryoriented thing I think for you it’s both and it it has to do with kind of being an older sibling as well and um wanting to show up for people but you have this authenticity about you as you move through community and culture that I think not only attracts people on the real estate side in a market that’s um really difficult to navigate right now from a trust perspective and a connectivity perspective but in life and in family And I see the way that your boys look up to you and I hear the way that they talk about you and that is that comes from nothing other than being there with them currently Yeah You know which is really really powerful man And so the you know to have you on the show today um the gift is all mine Oh I appreciate it That’s fun Really really appreciate it I wanted to touch on something that when I first met you or maybe just after I met you I had learned but I learned about it specifically before we went to a world master jiu-jitsu tournament Okay And I learned that you had a health issue a pretty significant health issue not just a health scare This is a very serious thing Yeah Um would you be willing to talk about that a little bit and how that message came and what you did yeah So you know in jiu-jitsu we bang our heads all the time Yeah we do So I I’d been suffering from vertigo in class and I was like I don’t this is not making sense And it was like I mean it was bad And so I went and um I went to my primary doc and I was like hey listen I I don’t know what’s going on and so let’s let’s get an MRI done He’s like it’s probably nothing He said but I’m going to send you to physical therapy and I’ll get you an MRI You’re getting dizzy all the time I was it was it’s it’s like vertigo and like I stand up and the world everything would spin I had to stop training for a while because of it Um because I could not every time I leaned back I everything was just spinning It was bad Um and so and so anyway so I get so I get the MRI So I get the result I I go to the MRI and I’m like this is nothing I’m just going to I’m just I’m like this is in my this this is nothing Yeah I I get home and already the results on my computer and and and and I open up the thing and I said it said you have a a lesion in your brain and in the center of your and it’s a central neuroscytoma most likely And I was like you have a brain tumor And I was like I was like I have what i what and I called my wife up and she’s um she’s on the way to a to a meeting and I was like I I really wish I wouldn’t open those results up and she’s I told her what it said and she she’s like do you want me to come home and I was like I have no idea I don’t feel anything I’m numb And um and then so she’s the medical professional not me So I was like kind of trying to take cues from her cuz I’m like feeling like I got hit by a truck Yeah And so she’s like “All right well I’m going to go to my meeting and I’ll come back.” So she comes back early and she’s just balling And I’m like “Oh [ __ ] I’m in trouble.” Like I’m in big trouble Like um and so yeah it was like um if like that cue of that reaction was so shocking to me because she does not cry very often and she’s very stoic and very driven person And so when that happened I was like it was it was a terrible shock and I was like what am I going to do i had no idea So um so we I mean for for weeks or for like a week we didn’t know what what was going like what was going on So I was like okay So I we immediately called I got a buddy of mine who’s a neurosurgeon and I play poker with him and so I was like dude I’m going to come see you He’s he’s I was like I was like I need to get I need to get in as soon as possible He’s he got me in like in a couple days and I go down there and he’s like “I’m not touching this This is too rare.” He’s like “I don’t know what the heck to do with this.” And so I I And so in the meantime like the three days before that um some of my wife’s partners had said “Okay this is what you’re going to do.” And you’re going to go to MD Anderson in Texas This is what you’re going to do And and so we just said “Roger that.” And went and did it And so I I got I called I got on the phone with MD Anderson I got a referral sent And so we got an appointment So my wife and I fly to him fly to Houston like this is the next week And so and the whole time I’m like my my my mind is on fire I don’t know what’s going on I’m I made the mistake of googling it And and I’m like I’m dead Yeah I’m dead in six months And so which you know that’s been a year so come on calm down a little bit But it’s it’s it’s like I I was terrified And so I called my dad up and um called my dad up that that day and I told him I was like and he’s like you the way you face this is going to define the way your boys look at you And and then um and so that really gave me the strength to sit up and say you know this is a fight that I’m going to fight I’m not going to just I’m not going to just be okay and and I’m gonna I’m gonna pick myself up and be the dad and the husband that I have to be because I don’t have a choice Mhm And then um so we went to Houston and we talked to you know we talk we’re talking to the best neurosurgeons in the country and um and it’s it’s benign but like the the surgeon said he said there’s nothing benign about a tumor that sits right in the center of your brain And so we go um and and he initially he’s like we’re going to take it out we’re gonna get it scheduled for for like next week and it’s coming out and I’m like dang deep Yeah it’s it’s and I was and so it’s terrifying So it’s it’s like um and there’s complications and so I you know it would it’s going to when it comes out and it’s going to come out someday it’s gonna it’s going to change me And so I have to I have to understand that and and face that um because they they separate the brain in half and then they go in and then they cut the corpus colossum and then they have to go into the into the ventricle to take it out and so that’s you know and then there’s going to be complications and so that’s that’s that’s in the future and I have to face that and it’s hard to it’s hard to face it but so then anyway back to the story we go I have to go back and forth I actually took my younger son Gus with me one time and we go back and forth had multiple MRIs I mean two and a half hours in an MRI machine is is awful And I’ve I now I’ve been I’ve had I go every four months to get an MRI I’ve got one coming up Um but we you know in the process of all this like right and then we go and we fight in tournaments and I’m like “Can I go fight in a tournament?” And and the surgeon’s like “I don’t care It’s no big deal.” And then I show him a picture of me getting then I right before I went to Master’s Worlds and you were there You saw this whole thing I got I got tossed with a Sodagari and I landed right on my head and it knocked me clean out Clean out It was bad If you look at the video it’s pretty bad I had heard your story just a piece of it like a week before right so you’re like “Oh no Oh wow What’s going on?” And and my wife runs out on the mat and they kick her off And um I had made a terrible noise when I when I got knocked out and I wasn’t moving and I could not believe when I looked at the video um how long I just laid there Yeah And it was scary Anyway so so I picked myself I I showed him that video because I was actually going to see my surgeon two days later So we flew we went from Vegas to home and then home to to Houston Robin and I did And I showed him the video and he’s like “Wow you’re really knocked out.” I was like he’s like “But your MRI looks good.” Because I got an MRI the next day Okay Thank God Yeah Make sure it didn’t like Yeah I know right wow So it’s stable now but eventually it’s going to have to come out But right when we were in Vegas um I mean 2024 just the the gift that never stopped giving My dad calls me up and he’s got stage four lung cancer Wow And so and then and then so I said “Dad the way you handle this is going to define the way your your children look at you.” And he’s like “That’s right Matt That’s right And so it’s um he’s he’s he’s doing really well right now But yeah he’s u but it’s it’s like he and I have had this unique experience this year where we look death in the eye and say not today Not today Yeah And so it’s going to come but it’s not today Yeah So and it’s hard to face it and it’s hard to talk about it Um and we don’t really talk about it at jiu-jitsu I mentioned it to a couple guys I was like “Dude I’m going through this.” Yeah And they’re like they were like “Oh no Do you need help?” And everybody at the gym is like “Do you need anything?” And and you know we’ve actually relied on on like Sarah has been a great help from the gym to help come handle the boys and stuff like that while we go to Texas So but it’s been um it’s been tough but I’ve just rededicated myself to the things that I find most important in life which are which is really just my family And I want to be the best example of a father and and the best husband I can be
And I hope I’m doing a good job I think you’re doing great my man So it’s hard Um but it’s it’s it’s tough Yeah But um well we train hard and then you know you we you’ve seen some of the successes we’ve had lately You guys are the whole family’s killing it So like um it’s so cool I went to Austin and I just I just kicked it and so that was a lot of fun I got gold medal there and I’ve got pans this weekend which I’m surprised you’re not going to The only reason I’m not going is I booked a trip to Kawaii and a half ago Okay So we’re going to do that or else I’d be right there with you guys for sure Yeah Okay Yeah It’s just such a such a unique and cool story of overcoming just a tremendous amount of adversity and you know peaks anymore I was in a group of women um last week have been just so blessed to be able to be in a peer group of um clients at Peaks Recovery Mondays and Thursday nights and I had 12 women in the group last week and it was everybody’s just dealing with quality of life issues We’d actually didn’t have anybody in there who was suffering from addiction It was the first time I’d been in a millu of 12 people where everybody’s just struggling with their mental health quality of life issues and in general suffering Yeah and what do we do with suffering and how do we move through it and you just gave just a really eloquent and connected presentation on like how you do that and it doesn’t mean that it’s not going to be difficult No plan for it to be difficult Yeah Yeah I had a good friend of mine who um went through a similar situation about 10 years ago and I sat down with him recently and he said plan for the best and he said plan for the worst which we we have you know we finances in order uh sat down with our estate lawyer and all that stuff but the but the piece that I had missed all this time planned for the best I had not planned to survive yeah words matter and I and when he said that to me I was like Okay I got to work harder Yeah And so I you know that’s now I mean I’ve been pushing myself I’ve been pushing myself but now I have a purpose I am planning for survival It may not happen but I’m planning for it I’m ready if I don’t And I’m you know my family will be ready But I am planning to survive Yeah And that’s so Yeah that’s that it’s really difficult to to see both sides of that coin Especially when you’re in a tough place Yeah especially when you’re hurting so bad And I couldn’t even think that way for so long So I feel for people who are suffering and they’re they’ve got a terrible life situation and they’re just trying to they’re just trying to survive dayto day They haven’t planned for the best or for the worst They’re just trying to make it till tomorrow Yeah It’s really really cool you know and in that effort are you putting that foot forward like you look at the family system and today you’re not surviving you’re absolutely thriving Oh yeah And it’s just a a really really cool thing And I think everybody can relate The people that walk through the doors of our program have been hit with these things sometimes Unfortunately for a lot of them it happened in these really crucially important developmental years by people that they really should have been able to trust Yeah But these life circumstances and these events happen to people and people need to move through it with community with powers greater than themselves with certain relationships Um and when we don’t have those things we feel like we talked about before the show isolated disconnected and all alone Yeah And that makes it not worth living It It really And it makes it so you just give up Like I have I have multiple I have my family which is my first and primary best community Y and then I have my Bible study group which is a bunch of old guys and you know some younger guys in there but a bunch of old guys Yeah And and you can’t go in that group and say something off off I mean you they keep you sharp I love that and they really and and we meet every Wednesday morning at 6:30 and they and every morning they’re there and they’re and they went through this with me and so that’s cool It’s been amazing And then and I have my jiu-jitsu So I have that physical community I have that family community and I have that spiritual community which I find to be such a important aspect of of my life Yeah Um especially facing something like this Yeah You know it really it really is It’s so interesting you say that I’m thinking of a couple things two things Um when I started in my recovery journey almost 17 years ago in July they told me to go to this ratchety old ass church and meet in the basement at like 6:30 and ask this guy if I could be of service and this crazy stuff And I’m like you guys are insane I was 22 years old and I had a plan to fail in life and they were getting in the way of it Yeah And they went in there and this guy Steve um his wife’s struggling right now I think she’s on hospice but he was an amazing human to me I walked in and he was 30 years sober man and he was sweeping the floors of this Unitarian church and I had a coffee position Well I got there at 4:00 a.m because the meeting started at 6 I got there at 4 a.m because there was 150 people in the home group and that’s what you had to do to make 17 pots of coffee So I would get there and they gave me a key to the church and I’m like “Oh man aren’t I worthy?” And I really mean that because people hadn’t given me a key to anything in a long time For good reason Yeah So I go into this church and this guy’s sweeping the floor Well it’s kind of like my day So by the third time I’m in there I’m like “Dude what are you doing here?” And he’s like “I’m so grateful you asked me that.” He says “My name is Steve I’m grateful recovering alcoholic 30 years.” He’s like “I have family I have grandkids You know I have resources and all of these things but um I got here 30 years ago and I had none of it And all they asked me to do was to show up on Wednesdays and sweep the floor in here.” And so I figured I’d just keep showing up on Wednesdays and sweeping the floor I’m like boom My head exploded And then he invited me It was him his buddy and the other guy And they all had 30 years He said “I don’t know why I believe this young man I don’t know why I’m saying this young man but I believe in you.” I was like “Whoa There’s a second guy to ever tell me that my entire life outside of my dad.” I said “Holy crap man Well I’ll follow you since you believe in me There’s not very many.” It’s not holy crap It’s the Holy Spirit Yeah Right It’s just it’s alive and well And so I show up to these guys and I’m taking notes They said “All I have I’m getting chills All I have to do is keep their coffee full.” I’m like “Oh my gosh I’m the coffee guy so this will be easy.” And like the three wise men I was taking notes They’re like “Talk to this person Talk to this person.” Before you know it I got done I was surrounded with community and great people And it reminds me of your Bible study I was like I get the gift of sitting around people with tremendous life experiences and I just get to listen Yeah When I learned that that was really really cool Yeah You know and my life as a as a result of that has enhanced tremendously Um because I don’t have the best way But I think we could figure it out Yeah I don’t know Yeah I’m an idiot fumbling through the dark Exactly man You know but when I surround myself with people who know what they’re doing well they’re idiots surrounding following around the dark Yeah But when we come together we can figure something out Yeah We all have pieces to the puzzle Yeah Cuz we’ve all failed in different ways and we’ve all figured it out And so sometimes you know we need that and we need oh yeah I’ve been there Y I’ve messed up like that before You know you you have that I’ve messed up like that before Oh yeah And that story is so important for so many people I’ve messed up in so many different ways Yeah And so and you’ve messed up And I mean but we we can see that in each other that we’ve both messed up but we come together and we can push Yeah And and that’s why you know that’s why I think you’re such an invaluable uh component of my son’s both my son’s lives because I you know I see somebody who’s who’s made mistakes figured some stuff out still a a faulted human being and they can learn from you And so that’s why you know not it’s you know when your 16-year-old says or at the time 15 says “Hey I’m gonna go hang out at at 40-y old dude this 40-y old dude’s house and and go lift with him.” I’m like “Who?” Yeah What what chris I was like I know I’ve talked to Chris a few times Yeah I said I got a good feeling about this but Yeah I mean but I was like okay and let’s see how this goes And then u but I mean it’s yeah but there’s there was most 99% of the time I would have said no but there was something that said trust Chris on this So Yeah I appreciate that man It’s been cool to be a part of your community personally professionally You know when I got the nod from Robin I was like boom Because she is she’s one of the most committed I really rever her discipline The way she shows up in life and tackles this thing one day at a time She she’s an example I tell you you know when anybody who thinks they’re disciplined um Robin is up there She’s up there And I I’ve tried to knock the top off but the way I’m just like man I’m I’m falling behind here Yeah I mean I I we we looked at how many jiu-jitsu classes we’ve been We started the same within this within a day of each other She’s got over a hundred classes more than me Wow 100 Holy smokes Yeah And she like blew out her Did she blow out her knee she had an AC and then she had ACL surgery So she was back in 6 months Uh she was back in 6 weeks She was like back on the mats in 6 weeks Wow And I Yeah I mean she she was dead I think she was going before that but I mean she just never left She’s fully recovered and she’s kicking ass Fully recovered Yeah I mean she’s just killing it Yeah Like we’re both ranked number one for pants That’s what I’m saying Like yeah I got my money on I got my money on black for sure Yeah Well man hey I appreciate you just uh blessing us with your presence today Uh family community and culture One of the greatest connected men in those corners that I had the opportunity to connect with Grateful that I could introduce you to the viewers here at Peaks Recovery Centers where mental health matters You clearly live a life where it matters to you And um thank you so much It does And I want to say something before we we finish about mental health Um I you know it’s such a stigmatized thing in our culture and I and I want to encourage people to go get the help they need you know when I was struggling and I didn’t really talk much about this but a few before I started jiu-jitsu well before that I was really struggling and I did not I took me forever to go get help and I went and found a therapist and and it was he was very very helpful in my journey And so I I want to encourage people especially you know I’m a veteran and a lot of veterans are just like they’re just not going to do it And I think it’s so important Yeah And so I want to I want to encourage anyone mental health is is absolutely important and you’re going to find help and community in in that So I you know I want to destigmatize it by talking about it Yeah That’s a big deal and I didn’t even I didn’t even know that about you Yeah You know I just figured you were doing something that was working So it’s a multitude of things and I appreciate you mentioned that too and especially as it pertains to veterans Yeah because we have a lot of veterans combat veterans military service members who just have kind of been indoctrinated with this idea that I don’t need any help Yeah And um I’ve learned throughout the process of working with a lot of courageous and heroic people um specifically veterans that that’s just not the case We all need each other Um and there’s an opportunity on the other side of that phone call So I appreciate you mentioning that Um Colorado realy to connect with the best realtor in Colorado specifically Colorado Springs actually just won an award and it wasn’t a cow award It was a bison award It was a bison award Let’s go What was that bison award about it’s charging the storm Charging the storm So charging into adversity instead of turning away from it Yep Because I started out in the the toughest year of real estate and I’ve been kicking butt So I’m having a lot of fun I absolutely love it It’s it’s a new new career path for me I’ve been at it for just about a year now and I’m I’m just I’m just having a lot of I’m having a blast Yeah So I know the people that uh have had the opportunity to work with you rever that opportunity Um I know just in a couple uh business professional conversations with you just the way that you hold presence and show up for other people and care about humans It’s kind of like it’s really connected within community And I think that’s probably why you’re one of those 10% of realators that is doing what they need to do one day at a time to make not just their lives but the people around theirs better Yeah My goal in real estate is not to make myself super rich with real estate I’m not too worried about that Yeah My goal is to help people and I and and really it’s it’s been a really great fit for me Yeah So we appreciate you Matt Until next time we’ll check in after pans and worlds in August Hopefully we’re bringing home the cling cling cling cling all over the place So hey man I appreciate you coming on Thank you so much Hey thank you Chris All right guys Until next time Peace [Music] [Applause] [Music]

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Episode 142Invest, Heal, Transform: A Conversation on Youth Treatment with Robert BlumeWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/BrHcrfJTg-sListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Chris Burns welcomes Robert Blume, Senior Behavioral Health Advisor at Paradigm Treatment, to the show to engage in a spirited conversation around youth treatment and support and ways to continue improving our industry. From destigmatizing seeking help to the value of investing in yourself, Robert and Chris share personal experiences and observed moments of how doing the work and being intentional in treatment can and will change your life. Thank you, Robert, for joining us! For more information on Robert or Paradigm Treatment, check out Paradigmtreatment.com.

Talking Points1. Introduction to the Show 2. Meet Robert 3. Adolescent treatment and support 4. The work 5. Seeking help 6. Investing in yourself 7. Looking into Paradigm Treatment 8. Paradigmtreatment.com 9. Final thoughts Quotes

“I think that so much of addiction is trauma related. I think it’s just trauma related. And so if we can start to work on some of that stuff when they are younger, and really help them to work through some of it, and understand what the trauma is they don’t have to end up in treatment”.— Robert Blume, Senior Behavioral Health Advisor at Paradigm Treatment

Episode Transcripts

Episode -142- Transcriptsyeah and I think that so much of addiction is trauma related yeah I think it’s just trauma related and so if we can start to work on some of that some of that stuff when they’re younger it’s like now we’re in this thing called recovery where we’re like seeking opportunities for growth yeah exactly oh man what we’re really looking and trying to do for them is to help them understand I’m feeling this way what are my tools to use to help me with this [Music] [Applause] [Music] hello everybody and welcome to another amazing exciting and of course enthusiastic episode with yours truly Christopher Michael Burns president and founder here at Peaks recovery centers where caring freaking matters it’s no wonder why I’m joined today by somebody who is a phenomenal professional but even better human Mr Robert Bloom with Paradigm programs everybody Welcome Robert thanks Chris absolutely it’s great to have you here and I love your senior Behavioral Health adviser at Paradigm programs and how long have you been with them and what does that mean I’ve been with Paradigm about a little over two a little over two years okay um so I started in October of 2022 um and Senior Behavioral Health adviser um basically my role is to work with clients who are trying to get into treatment or who who need to go into mental health treatment um you know we’re a a mental health primary facility we focus on adolescence and young adults um so 12 to 26 um in Malibu the Bay Area Austin and now also in cordan Idaho actually in cordan Idaho we can do all adults as well oh wow for mental health um so my job is to go out and and talk with the therapists clinicians hospitals other treatment facilities um and let them know we do so if they do have a client that needs our services um or needs to go into treatment needs to go into a higher level of care or um is um in need of Residential Treatment um we can we can get them into our facility um so that’s my job is um going out and letting people know an evangelist for our program and you’re you’re quite the Evangelist because you know there was something and we talked before the show there was just something really unique that stuck out to me you know in my nearly 17 years of doing this and uh most of that time on the ownership side something that is really really difficult for me is a lack of authenticity like why are we here and can we really speak to that like in a professional Community if we can’t I just don’t really want to be a part of that yeah and so when Jessica my cousin who was our Outreach uh person at the time was like you got to meet Robert you got to meet Robert in fact he just he wants to go snowboarding I’m like Jessica you I don’t know about the time to go snowboarding is this like she’s like just do it I’m like okay and I didn’t we didn’t talk about work or anything and what I realized in that interaction was differently than some of the interactions I’ve had before with um directors of Business Development behavi whatever the title might be in the Outreach uh sphere is you care and you care in a really Dynamic way all of your conversations are centered around the people that you get into the program how they’re doing you walk with them not only from the front end in the admissions process but throughout their Care on the back end how are they doing and so you really appear to me somebody who in addition to Paradigm treatment programs is somebody that’s interested in disrupting this industry through quality of care oh yeah for sure I mean there’s a lot of programs out there there’s a lot of programs that do um mental health there’s a lot of programs that work with kids there there’s or adoles there’s a lot of programs that work with young adults but you know I can say we’re one of the best out there m um I believe in what we Doh um I send my friends kids to our program yeah so I definitely believe in what we do um you know I I’m myself am sober um you know I went to treatment myself treatment Saved My Life um you know I went to a residential treatment program for for substance abuse and it saved my life I it definitely changed the traj traj trory of my life so I definitely want to be able to offer that to um to other people um and to let people know that there is there is a solution um you know I I worked in the in the sud space substance use space for for about five years um that was a great job I loved it you know and now in the mental health space um working especially with adolescents and young adults um most of them do have some substance use mhm um but it’s more of a um a coping mechanism yeah and so they’re using it to to try and um deal with what’s going on in their lives not not understand their emotions feelings um everything along those lines they just like I was as a as a um young gay kid in South Carolina just that same way I’m you know and then at some point in time I cross the line and so if we can step in and stop those kids from getting to the point where they cross that line um and they um get into active addiction you know if we can start to give them some of those tools and say hey here’s how here’s how you can handle those emotions those feelings you know those situations without having to turn to marijuana or alcohol or other substances you know if we can if we can stop that and provide those Solutions maybe they won’t be 40 years old getting into a substance abuse program and their life blown up right it’s it’s really near and dear to my heart I know it is to yours is like you know the fifth grade Chris Burns couldn’t sit still to start with and if we could have had an inflection point where there was a resource introduced that would provide some foundational support or at the very least to let me know that what was going on wasn’t my fault y right and you have a really Dynamic story I think that informs the love and care you have for individuals that are making the courageous decision to seek treatment um what was that like for you and what do you think a program like Paradigm could have done in your adolescence to help support maybe a different path oh man I mean it would just been so different to have to have someone who could come to my to could come into what was going on in my life you know um and and provide me with just some tools just some understanding of my emotions you know my my thoughts you know my dealing with my family unit you know as on top of all of all of that I’m also adopted so you know there’s there’s also that piece there um so that always feeling uncomfortable I think that’s something that everyone or a lot of people in alcoholic synonymous we always hear I was always uncomfortable you know I never felt like I fit yeah you know I didn’t MH I mean I definitely didn’t I was in a family of people I mean even down to their skin was dark and my skin was like pasty white you know so I was always different and you know having some tools to deal with that difference and having some tools to understand what some of that what some of those differences were um and not have to not having to internalize it because I took on all the responsibility for it yeah everything that was going on I was taking responsibility for it and so you know if I would have had some type of of program like Paradigm that I could have gone to and and work through some of my issues like I said I wouldn’t have been a 40 40something year old um washed up person in a drug and alcohol treatment program yeah well the person said say seems like you’ve done pretty well sir yeah exactly you know but you you speak um so clearly to the point it’s like what what can we do now moving forward and I think Adolescent Treatment has taken on kind of a new wave of energy because I think we can get to these things before they become very intense and um present their subsequent like risk factors that are very very alarming and then when we get to even when you’re 22 years old and you’re checking into treatment and getting sober at my age you know now you’re facing 10 years in prison you got a credit score of 200 you have no family relationships and you’re isolated disconnected and all alone like there’s got to be a way CU I think that’s what we used to think you had to get to get into recovery right you got to dig your hole deep enough so you can get in it and and now I think we’re just kind of raising that bottom and speaking so much clearly to the mental health opportunity we have yeah and I think that so much of addiction is trauma related yeah I think it’s just trauma related and so if we can start to work on some of that some of that stuff when they’re younger and and really start help help them to work through some of it and understand um what what the trauma is um how to get through it um they don’t have to end up yeah as an adct or an alcoholic um you know sure some people have a propensity to be an alcoholic or an addict you know for sure um you know there’s subset of the population that for sure you know I’m I go to Alcoholics Anonymous I you know I was in a meeting this morning you know so I I definitely it was a great meeting you know I heard what I needed to hear you know it was I woke up in the morning I was like I need I can either look at the news or I can go to a meeting I’m going to go to a meeting so um you know I I that and that that’s just that inuitive thought that I get um you know and I’m super grateful for alcoholic annonymous it definitely saved my life yeah it is such an integral part of my life um I’m grateful for everything it did for me but maybe if I would have had some help earlier I wouldn’t that wouldn’t have been the path that I would have ended up in yeah I wouldn’t have made a lot of the decisions that I made I wouldn’t have been in the relationships that I was in MH um I would not have made the choices that I had made um if I would have had
someone who helped me see what my worth was um at a younger age yeah I’ve learned that now 100% oh yeah I mean I know what my worth is I know my value um that doesn’t mean I don’t have tough days or anything like that but um you know if I would have had some just support of here’s what your value is here’s here’s what you can do um you know it would have just been so different um my path is my path this is what happened but everyone’s path doesn’t have to be that yeah and I mean it’s a it’s a beautiful Journey sitting in front of us today and I I’d say you know it’s certainly worth it and um it’s incredible the amount of progress someone can make in a short period of time connected with the right people yeah and something that you brought up for me when you were speaking was you know we get into recovery and I think it’s important for folks that are potentially seeking treatment it Peaks recovery or Paradigm to think like it’s actually not a One-Stop shop either no way maybe you can speak to cuz I I know you um personally and professionally to maybe the work that was required in treatment and maybe the work that’s been required since and maybe highlight that a little bit for the viewer so they can get the expectations in check cuz I thought at 20 when I first checked into treatment I’m just going to put the heroins down We’re Off to the Races baby no no no no so correct that for me yeah for sure I mean just like in just like in working the steps steps 1 through n everyone thinks that’s all the work no it’s 10 11 and 12 so it’s after you know after you clean up after you clean up all your wreckage and all that kind of stuff then that’s when you can really start doing the work and so you know so treatment helped me to get to the point where I could go to work MH um you know when I first got sober I worked in a hardware store and so and I would walk to work I mean it was about four miles from my house and I would walk to work every day cuz I didn’t even have a car yeah you know and um I I worked night shift um so I worked overnights um and so no one was on staff to take me to work no one was going to pick me up in 5: in the morning so I just had to walk to work shift starts at 10:00 yeah I I mean I started work at 9:00 I got off at 5:00 a.m. wow and so I’d have to walk to work every day um and so I had a lot of I had a lot of stuff to clean up I had just a lot of wreckage to clean up um and you know I I did I was I was unemployable I couldn’t go to work but you know that little job taught me how to go to work and then I got another job and another job um which just changed my life um you know thank God for my education um because it prior yeah because it definitely opened doors for me um you know when people saw that I i’ had gone to Clemson they were just like oh yeah he went to Clemson he must be able to have a job ACC he’s good here yeah so I was able to get a job because of that thank God for that thank you um and you know so I I I had a lot of skills I had a lot of tools but I didn’t know how to use use them and you know um and so I was able to get a get a foundation in in Alcoholics synonymous but after that I have done therapy since I got sober yep I’ve been sober for 10 years and I have been in therapy on and off not continuously but I’ve been in therapy since I got sober I’m in lots of different times of therapy I mean just lots of different types of therapy you know I I I would just find what I needed you know I’ve when I when I talk to someone and they’re like hey this really worked for me I’m going there you know I’m that’s my next thing I’m like someone told me TMS work and I was like okay I’ll do TMS I love that because it because Robert says he’s done therapy for the last 10 years doesn’t actually mean there’s a problem but in fact there is potentially a solution yeah oh that gave me chills cuz it’s like now we’re in this thing called recovery where we’re like seeking opportunities for growth yeah exactly oh man yeah I’m in therapy right now and I’m telling you I am having the uh an experience with therapy that I just didn’t even think was possible you know I’m I’m actually it’s actually helping me um in ways that I didn’t even know I needed help you know that initial therapy you know that initial couple years of therapy that I was in you know I did a lot of EMDR I did just a lot of talk therapy but you know this is just all different types of therapy in the same therapy session you know so some some sematic um experience some SE some you know just just everything just what do you need right now and then we’ll go get the tool and Pull It in so it’s not like one type of therapy it’s like all different types of therapy and so we just pull in whatever I need brain spotting um you know um sematic experience talk therapy you know and then just some skills paace stuff because I still need skills there are still situations where I’m like I need some skills to deal with this MH absolutely I need some help and you know and I’m willing that’s that is one thing about me I’ve always been able to ask for help I know the answers yeah I’m I’m I’m I’m not all knowing and if I am uncomfortable if I’m if there are things going on I’m going to ask for help yeah and I think that’s one of the biggest things that walking into alcoholic synonymous help me with is you got to have help it’s a humility thing yeah you got to have people to help you y um I just there’s so much power in like what is it I can he can so let him right it’s just like those words to be like I I can’t do this by myself it’s powerful and so hard to come by yeah I can’t tell you how many times I have knelt down on
my and just say God I need help yeah I don’t know what to do yeah and then all of a sudden the solution comes it yeah it’s it’s like how can you not know that this is what’s going to happen this is what’s going to happen how can you how can you in in any way think that that’s not going to happen yeah you you know so many times I’ve just had to say God I don’t know what to do yeah I just don’t know what to do it’s so interesting that exercise of humility is so formidable imp palatable the conversion rate of that is is almost synonymous with 100% of the time yeah I mean it’s just it’s not what I thought no never man I remember um my first sponsor I was on my step Second Step 2008 yeah and I’m having a tough time man cuz I’m like this isn’t for me I’m not I’m not here like you know and I I’m unique just like you and we suffer from it and um I said I got nothing to be grateful for this God thing about the trust and the second step and he said Chris do you pray and I was like no but I’m open to it yeah he said what would you pray for I said well you know I don’t have enough money to pay my electric bill so $68 would be nice in my account but I have eight bucks he said go home and pray about it I said Larry this is this is crazy you’re crazy this program’s crazy two things I remember like it was yesterday I prayed for $68 for an electric bill and I wanted my mom to go to treatment because I was ready to save the world at 90 days sober and everybody had to give better and I hadn’t talked to my mom but if I would have and he said so what you’re going to do is you’re just going to say hey Universe God light P whatever you’re just going to throw it out with humility and say hey I could really use this money cuz I need my lights to turn on cuz I’m in Rec recovery and I need to help people and my mom I love her I just want to see her get well and I don’t want to and he said but you don’t get to do anything right cuz Chris’s way or the highway is not working yeah he said so you just pray about that send it up send it out and forget about it and I want you to call me in a week and tell me how it turns out I’m like Larry this is some Wizardry [ __ ] like is ever going to work two days later Bank of America had been doing a keep the change I check my bank account every day cuz at this point I’m working at Woody’s gas station making 725 an hour and I look and they do a the change program I never knew what keep the change was back then but it was every dollar you spent so if you spent 98 cents 2 cents round it up into some account out in the middle of nowhere yeah well they just happened to do the annual rebate two days later uh boom I got $112 in my account I’m calling my brother Brandon 48 hours after my sponsor gave me that I’m like Brandon you know I wish Mom would just get help I’m going to call her and tell her you know my sponsor didn’t tell me to do he’s like what are you talking about Mom’s in treatment I’m like all right called my sponsor and it was in that moment I’m like I’m all in yeah let’s go because there was this idea that like if I just if the universe had energy if you will it what what if I was just blocking it yeah Now We’re Off to the Races so I love when you talk about these opportunities to like man hit my knees and that doesn’t strike me as a religious statement it strikes me as a humble moment oh yeah you know uhuh and I think it takes
a a few of those to find sustainable longterm and Foundation relized recovery uhh spiritual experiences yeah exactly you know yeah so and spiritual growth which is just important to staying sober yeah um you know I’m I’m grateful that I’m willing to get up that I was willing to get up and go to a meeting this morning you know I’ve I’ve had lots of sponses they don’t want to go to meetings right okay well you don’t have to I’m not I’m not your boss I’m not here to tell you what to do um you do what you think it’s right I’m going to tell you what I do and you can do what I do or you can do what you want to do you know if you want what I have I would suggest you go to a meeting but I’m I’m it’s it’s your choice um I’m I used to be I’ll tell you what to sponsor but I’m not anymore yeah I used to I used to be their boss um that’s exhausting yeah you do it so well though Robert I think I think someone once told me maybe I screw it up but some of the best form of influence is a life well-lived yeah and you do that well and so whether you say it or not you inform it and I think people get get behind that yeah you know at least I can feel it yeah exactly no yeah my sponsor at one point in time he said you know you’re doing your sponsor these programs yeah he said you’re going to meetings for them they only go to meetings that you go to you know you’re you’re having a meeting at your house so that they can come there you know you’re doing all this you’re doing their programs that they have to do their programs hard and that was hard for me to do that was hard for me to stop doing their programs for them and it was hard for me to see them make the mistakes but you know that’s what’s going to sustain them not me doing their program for them um [Music] and it was it was tough it was tough for me to stop that but you know I feel better now that I’ve stopped it I’m not worried about if they’re going to a meeting or not it’s it’s call me if if you want to go to a meeting call me we’ll go to a meeting but I’m not I’m not managing their meeting attend exactly that’s pretty tiing yeah it’s it’s exhausting I mean for a bunch of 20-year-olds managing their meeting attendance um you know did you go to a meeting today get form sign by Mr Bloom exactly you know and that that was just exhausting I don’t have to do that anymore so you know I’m I’m grateful for for for that time hey that [ __ ] kept me sober guess he was going to all the meetings ex did I ever tell you they used to call me they used to call me the sobriety Reaper did I ever tell you that yeah cuz I was like Captain AA I’m like Secretary of the largest meeting and all this stuff and I got all these sponsor he at all these treatment programs around town and every one of them is getting high like every other week yeah and I’m like they would be like o the sobriety Reaper yeah I’m like so I would go to my sponsor at the time John amazing guy amazing guy 30 years of recovery head of probation it was my was perfect for me and I’d say John man you know I think I’m really hurting these people and but it’s back to your point he said he would always say in his living room what’s the most important thing I said that I’m here with you today he said it’s working baby let’s go I’m like oh yeah like it’s and we’re here today and that’s the mission that’s the vision and we’ll continue to impact lives along the way and there’ll be people that’ll make that courageous decision one day at a time because it really is just about investing in yourself oh yeah you know and are you willing to put yourself first today and the answer for a lot of people walking through substance use recovery is no because of the shame so they need great people like you around them to help lift that and share it with them uhhuh and a lot of them don’t really understand what putting themselves first means yeah they think it’s being selfish right yeah well and I think that’s Alcoholic Anonymous does a great job of okay we’ll be selfish yeah uhhuh yeah yeah look what you can get yeah yeah you go some people can afford to be more selfish than others yeah exactly for sure um before we get off and I just really appreciate you know I’m Chris Burns turning professional conversations personal since 2008 um I really appreciate the owner ility and authenticity but before we get off in regards to Paradigm and anything new and exciting that you guys have that we want the viewers to know that we’re connecting with one of the things I did want to mention that if I’m not mistaken the access to care at Paradigm yeah is kind of second to none with respect to the quality of care so um you know our our real our real things that we’re that we’re looking for is we want we want people to get access to care so we want anyone who um you know who has private insurance um to be able to go to treatment and not have to mortgage their home yeah um you know so we’re we’re really interested in giving access to care you know allowing them to come into treatment um get what they get what they need mental health treatment um you mostly a network right affordable care we have a lot of in network contracts um we work on an add a network basis with them and we’ll work with clients you know whatever they need to get into care we don’t want that to be a barrier we don’t want them to say I don’t have the money yeah um we want to help them work with that um you know uh in in whatever ways we can um you know we also you know so that afford access to care Affordable Care um and then you know we we we want to be we want to give them good care so when I say that we do five individual therapy sessions a week that is the biggest differentiator I’ve ever heard when you first said that I’ve never met anybody in my whole career that does that yeah say that they’re doing they’re doing therapy all the time five individual sessions people come to our program robt and they’re like you guys are so amazing you do two yeah um you know plus a parent therapy session as well on top of that and then the biggest thing that that really just differentiates our program is we have clinical support from 7:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m. if a kiddo’s awake they got a clinician that they can have access to and it’s not a phone call no that’s beautiful um so when the you’ve been in treatment forever you know nothing happens when you’re in group yeah everything happens in the afternoon when you’re having lunch or you’re when you’re when you’re out on an outing you know that’s when the that’s when the that’s when the the the real work can happen because that’s in the moment so you having that access to clinical support at all times while the kiddos are awake um that’s really what makes a difference yeah um you know we’re an Insight based facility so we are not behavioral um so no punish Ms no rewards no level systems um what we’re really looking and trying to do for them is to help them understand I’m feeling this way what are my tools to use to help me with this that’s beautiful how can I when I leave this place and the I’m not in this controlled environment what can I do when I feel this anxiety what can I do when I feel suicidal what can I do when I feel like I want to self harm what can I do when I’m depressed what can I do when I don’t feel like going to school what can I do when I’m when I’m upset with my parents when I’m upset with my friends when my boyfriend breaks up with me when my girlfriend breaks up with me you know what can I do to really help myself in that moment and giving them tools so they understand that behavioral is works great for lots of kids but most kids they need that understanding of why they feel that way it’s relational mhm yeah oh wow now we can be relational with developing young people yeah isn’t that beautiful definitely I I love that Robert it’s just like because we were coming out of this and I I love that you mentioned that too because we’re coming out of this like when I was a kid boarding school model very punitive behavioral modification to step
back if somebody would have asked me a good question like you were talking about when I was a young kid I might have given you a good answer yeah but since you asked dumb questions like what’s wrong with you will continue to be stuck I love what you guys are doing creating autonomy some autonomy and some relationality with young people mhm I bet that’s like the biggest Beacon of Hope they’ve ever seen well so many of them they they live a life of this you know we’re we’re a phone free facility too love it um and so they’re this is the way they live their life they don’t even know how to carry on a conversation they don’t know how to they don’t know how to be in a group setting um with the phone um so much of their personal um definition of themsel is based on the phone so when you take that away for a little while they can really start to learn who they are yeah and in community which is so I mean to be seen valued and heard in community as a 12-year-old these days yeah MH yeah our millu is our magic 100% um you know that that 12 client program where they’re with each other all day long they’re dealing with each other with clinical support all day long mhm that’s just magic it’s it is Magic and it’s it bucks the industry standard by a long shot especially for providers that have access to care or in network I mean 12 person programs and not only are they intimate group settings but Paradigm can get you in a spot that meets you right where you’re at they have such a diversity of offerings throughout what are they what do you have 10 to 12 different programs we have um we’re in um four different locations four different locations okay and diverse offerings from levels care in those locations as well yeah so really I mean if you’re out there struggling you have a young person struggling give them a call because at the very least they can educate you um on a potential opportunity in the future or meet you right where you’re at today so uh make sure and give them a call what is your guys’ website um it’s Paradigm treatment.com Paradigm treatment.com and if you get if you get lucky enough to deal with somebody like Robert which I think you will over at Paradigm treatment you’ll be in phenomenal loving and caring hands thank you so much for joining us today sir um it’s a real opportunity to know you both personally and professionally I feel the same way 100% thank you my friend thanks all right folks until next time peace [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music]

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Episode 141 The Truth About Why Hard Work & Community Matter More Than EverWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/WPCib5G3pEcListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Chris Burns welcomes back our Alumni Manager, Founder of The Bridge, and Peaks Recovery Centers legend, Dan Hugill! Returning to the show, Dan and Chris dive into important issues that are often silenced or overlooked in society. Together, they explore how we can rebuild stronger relationships to strengthen our community and ourselves. This passion-packed episode covers everything from the value of hard work and the debate around tough love approaches to the undeniable need for community resources. Thank you, Dan, for always bringing your heart, energy, and passion to every moment of every day!

Talking Points1. Introduction to the Show 2. Fun Facts About Dan 3. Benefits of Hard Work 4. Exercise with Intensity 5. Breaking Down Walls 6. Speaking Life into Recovery 7. Tough Love 8. Community Resources 9. Seen, Valued, and Heard 10. Alumni Night at PRC 11. Final Thoughts Quotes

“So, certain special pains that you just grow to love, because you know it is doing something to build you.” – Dan Hugill

Episode Transcripts

Episode -141- Transcriptsuh your story is important because it can become a page in somebody else’s survival guide and that’s something unfortunately that this current system just doesn’t do doesn’t do it doesn’t meet people where they’re at it meets people where they think they’re at right which is devalued yes there’s a place for that but build rapport because these people are walking all over people now be in the spirit of am I going to hurt your feelings I don’t want my problems to get easier I want to get stronger and how I deal with them [Music]
hey everybody and welcome to another amazing and exciting episode of Finding Peaks Yours Truly Chris Burns president and founder so excited today to be joined by my good friend colleague and the most one of the most amazing humans I Know Dan hooko good to see you brother Chris it’s good to see you bro thank you for having me absolutely man we were just kind of chopping it up as we do about 30 minutes before the show and I wanted to start with something a little bit new today and we’re trying something new here on Peaks I’m not formulating any questions we’re just coming in and having Dynamic connected and present conversations that matter and so uh Dan’s going to be kind of the Forefront of that but before we get going I wanted to welcome everybody into Dan’s personal life a little bit now he allows everybody in through the show and the things he does in the community but fun facts about Dan 2025 let’s go round one Dan take it away fun facts about d one of my favorite ones and I know we were just talking about and I was you I was was talking about how you know like I love the Shaolin Kung Fu over over at the sevenstar Phoenix shouting them out a little bit really quick but I I was saying like the last year just because of getting everything going and the busy I haven’t been as present there so I just got back into doing the shin conditioning where like we have these like pain sticks it’s like these there like a bunch of like wires and it frays out you tap up and down your shins and I just really got back into doing it consistently again for the shin conditioning because I mean if we’re going Shin to Shin I’m I’m going to win that that’s that’s the goal and so just back into doing that and then just like the rolling up and down the Shins I use a piece of Rattan and just piece of retan yeah what is retan retan it looks like bamboo it’s it’s like a a brownish kind of like it has like the segments like bamboo and I get the thinner branches basically that’s um we use those for our staffs when we do our staff fighting stuff but I like to get the thinner ones there’s just something about the thinner ones when you roll it it just seems like it’s more effective and we usually go up and down the shin a number of times but I’ve been doing it more I’m like part of me is like I got to catch up because I haven’t been consistent but the other part of me is just like I love it so I’m just rolling up and down my shin and actually they’re they’ve been a little bit bruised lately and it’s been a while since I’ve experienced that but you got to have Shin armor if you’re kicking with your shins you know or if you’re getting kicked in The Shins D I love that man and I was asking Dan because I I do Jiu-Jitsu and a little bit of wrestling this kind of thing and a lot of like highle wrestlers don’t quote me on this this with the hybrid level wrestlers that I hang out with especially for novice level wrestling people they’re like get good shooting to one side right get one side good and I was talking to Dan I was like well so you just do that front leg right cuz you’re you’re a southpaw and he’s like no you have to do both why do you have to do both why is that important but Chris you got to do both because if somebody you know gets an angle on you and they go for a kick or a sweep and you end up going Shin to shin and like if someone’s going for a sweep for me and I catch it what I would do is I would anchor I’d put my weight on that leg to stop it and if it’s Shin to shin and we’re going Shin to Shin mine’s not breaking yeah yeah that’s so cool man so I’m sitting here chatting with Dan and I’m like you know we’re going to start the show with fun facts about Dan let go that’s a beautiful fact you know when you were talking about the Rattan or the one that you actually get I wonder if it’s kind of like like getting tattooed where when they come in with like the real um like the big mags like the 12 needles are like those are all right when they come in with the little bumblebees like the two and the threes it’s like g g g you’re just like move it’s like a different kind of special pain yeah you know it’s exactly there C there’s certain special pains that you just grow to love because you just know that it’s doing something to build you I love that yeah and and it and I want to be clear too and a lot of people talk about this you know just because it’s hard doesn’t mean it’s good but there are a lot of things that are hard um and necessary to work through yeah uh that can equal um positivity endurance strength connectivity and um a lot of good things on the end of it as well absolutely and Chris that’s like one of my kind of mantras is I didn’t pray for an easy life you know what I’m saying and it’s one of those things where sometimes it’s just like oh man I like to do difficult things because I feel like it it builds character it’s like that that Comfort like the sticker Comforts a slow death prefer pain just because like I don’t know it starts to forge you into the person where it’s like I don’t want my problems to get easier I want to get stronger and how I deal with them I was sitting with a guy the other day and this is is a a tough way to put it but a lot of people in early recovery especially dealing with substance driven issues and mental health driven issues are experiencing a lot of Shame yeah you know they’ll say things like I feel like a piece of [ ] man yeah so I feel like the scum of the earth so what am I going to do and then they go do something with you it’s hard maybe they get through boxing maybe today they went through Prime they went through a Jiu-Jitsu class and they get out and they have this experience in that 24-hour segment of time where they say something like you know what I don’t feel like a piece of [ ] yeah that’s powerful and it’s palatable and I think sometimes in environment it gets excused for kind of like it’s just this hard thing and it’s just these thing people get through it produces mental health it’s a mental health Victory yes right yes talk to me a little bit about that and how you guys you guys are getting people real active in community you got some new contracts going we’re inte ating people from the Department of Corrections a lot of good stuff going on at the bridge right now yes thank you Chris thank you so yeah at the bridge that’s where the magic happens is it’s first of all community and it’s people speaking life into you but but so that’s great and that has its place but when you go in and you get to experience something hard with that Community speaking life into you it’s kind of that whole iron sharpens iron thing and when we get into what’s going on with the brain your body you’re you’re in there your box and you’re like I don’t want to spar yet or maybe you know like because I see a lot of guys that you know they think that they’re tough and it’s like well I don’t want to spar it’s like we’re going to teach you before you Spar buddy yeah don’t hurt them yeah don’t hurt them when they come in trying to fight like this get your elbows down my friend like this isn’t the yard yeah but they say they they they tell the kids I keep them in like a like a tyrannosaurus yeah you protect yourself you keep it in tight you keep it in tight you know yeah but but when you go in and you get to do this thing like you experience this like and you’re swinging and you’re hitting the bag and you do like 10 three minute rounds first of all you didn’t even think you can do it so you’re just gushing with dopamine cuz you just accomplished something and the endorphins it feels good it’s like you naturally like I’m feel like I’m supposed to be doing this because when you really go back like remember like tribe yeah like when it gets into like like like even think like with with the depression cure it talks about like back to like the hter gatherers you got your purpose and you used to have to walk 10 miles to hunt your deer to get it to quarter it to draw to take it back and you’re getting the endorphins and everything and back then you had to now it’s like we have to supplement these things and when we don’t physiologically we deteriorate yeah so you have to get these exercise things and now when you go do it you feel so good it starts to build your confidence up and then you do it with all these other people and you have the accountability piece and it’s just like it it just it works and there’s all this research coming out like the physiology first the university I follow them on Instagram they’re they’re they’re great they just came out with this study it was from 2023 and it came out in 2024 and they didn’t I didn’t get into the specifics of it but it said that with int exercise with intensity is 1.5 times effective as medication and cogn cognitive behavior therapy so now people are like oh cool now this is please understand I’m not saying stop your therapy or your medication you add to it add this to it and now we got a cocktail for Success so I remember I’ve heard it before and I remember you said this you said this a bunch of times if we could take that feeling we get and put it in a pill it’d be the bestselling mental health substance use treatment that there is yeah people be snorting It Be Still yeah right or taking eight of them you go to the C all be sold out it’s it’s right there and that’s what I love about it is people think that it’s inaccessible to them right but that’s that’s why it’s interesting that you call yourself the bridge and I referred when we were building Peaks maybe I stole it from you I don’t know I I liken the facility at Peaks as a bridge for folks that are struggling with acute mental health yeah in a lot of the ways same same way you’re creating this bridge for people to have purpose and what if just for a second like and this just dawned on me when you were talking like what if part of your purpose was you right and then and now this investment that’s doing this hard thing that’s doing it in community really matters yeah right because now all of a sudden I I’ve illuminated purpose and I’ve invested in that purpose 24 hours at a time yes it’s a beautiful thing what are you seeing with guys that are coming out cuz the guys aren’t coming out of a Department of Corrections you know swinging around the confidence wand no being like I’m here you know it’s quite the opposite and they defend it in a certain way but what are you seeing as far as kind of breaking down these walls and um people being integrated in the community yeah so that’s great Chris I love that so what I see with that a lot of the time right when they get out I’m going to tell you the thing that hurts people the most is relationships and every time I see it because you’ll be in Doc and you’ll be doing your addiction treatment program you’ll be doing your your your community like maybe like a 12ep or a support group and you’re putting all this work into what your recovery and your life skills and education but you nobody ever is touching my what my relationships used to look like so they get out and they have all this stuff going for some of them and then they go back to that whoever that individual from the trap house and it just bombs and like you always hear if you go to the barber shop enough times you’re going to get a haircut like you can only be strong in that setting for so long and there’s just something that happens to these people that that hits them but then on the other end like the first thing we like we really got to look at on that is while they’ve been working in there they’re going to get out and like if you’re paroling homeless if you’re discharging homeless discharge like so parole is you go to parole discharges you’ve completed so much of your sentence that you like you’re done you’re done you off paper and so there has to be a plan with that and that’s where parole cannot help so that’s where we’ll step in we’ll help with parole we’ll talk to case management will they literally just let him out the front gate yeah just go go we don’t care here’s a bus ticket for getting back to where you’re from 50 bucks yeah 50 bucks little card yeah voucher yeah yeah and and it and that sucks but it’s like parole can’t pay for it you’re not on parole there you know what I’m saying yeah so we step in we do a lot of stuff with that and we really attack like your basic needs first because I tell you what Chris if I get out and I don’t have a I don’t have a place to live the last thing I’m thinking about is going to the boxing gym right you know yeah I can’t take a shower afterwards yeah yes you know like yeah yeah I love how you you step in and kind of start to serve some of those Primal needs yes like man I just need a toothbrush toothpaste coming in I need a sober living I need a gym I can go to that doesn’t cost 15 50 like lifetime even though we love Villa you know was cool B was cool great people there at Bley yeah yep what’s up but I I love that so when you can meet them where they’re at and that’s something unfortunately that this current system just doesn’t do doesn’t do it doesn’t meet people where they’re at it meets people where they think they’re at right which is devalued yes and I love when you can come in and reorient he said such a Good Thing Man relationships it’s like my old friend D young she’s like drugs don’t kill people Rel relationships do and it’s some of the most difficult things to pull away from and I wonder why we don’t go back to the old methodology cuz when I was 22 years old and I was getting sober my sponsor sat me down and was like you don’t have any friends those friends are gone yeah cut it out and I’m like what no way and he was like cut the [ ] man you want a new life you said you were going to take suggestions you’re going to go to the Department of Corrections do this thing that I’m telling you to do or keep getting what you’ve always got yes and so I grudgingly was like dude okay and I didn’t have a relationship for the first year yeah and I honestly I got I met my wife before that got a relationship with her at 14 months I tell you right there that was 5 years too early yeah yeah but it worked yeah it it worked out because I had great people around me but what do you do because these PE the folks are coming out and from a relationship perspective and a primal needs perspective they’re looking to really connect they’ve been withdrawn disconnected from their families for sometimes 15 20 years yeah how do we speak life into life like come with us disconnect from that for an opportunity to move in a New Direction it’s got to be yeah and that’s where it’s just got to be a slow grind because obviously with those old family Dynamics you might have trust issues you might have abandonment issues and it could be hard like for somebody to come in and like trust me trust the situation and you got to build rapport I do want to speak to what you said about it being 20 years ago I want to tell you this [ ] is soft these days and we need to tell up a little bit because it’s like oh oh did I offend you I’m like there’s a place for that but build rapport because these people are walking all over people now in the spirit of am I going to hurt your feelings I’m not okay with that at all exactly like there’s an element of like we there’s out of love and I think that if you can have love behind it and be known and have some Rapport too but yeah I’m about a a little bit like harder but I love you approach I love that too and I think right there’s a time and place in a set and setting where it’s really fitting yeah like we sit here with Nick all the time and I don’t know that there’s a client that’s gone through Peaks recovery centers that I wasn’t harder on yeah but he would sit here and tell you zob but I know I know you love me right and you were there for me and you showed up and you meant what you said and you said what you meant and you showed up 24 hours at a time so it mattered to me and he’s like and I needed that and so picking the right time and I think it’s important to talk about in our industry because we’ve gotten so far away from like just sitting with a man sitting with another man or a woman sitting with another woman and saying hey cut the [ __ ] yeah right yeah and sometimes there certain folks that that’s all they can hear yes you know yeah and for those folks we really need to do them a solid and be authentic and kind yes you know so I love that we’re still talking about that because if somebody doesn’t kick you in the butt sometimes you don’t even know you need a butt kicking for sure you know there was once upon a time where if I wasn’t getting kicked in the butt like I’m not doing anything like I remember I walked in when I first started 12ep right when I got out of my treatment I went down it was right up the street from here on wasach the downtown nuner group and I went in there and they’re like raise your hand if you don’t have a sponsor and I’m like raise my hand and so I had like four or five men come up to me after and asked me if they could sponsor me you remember I was a knucklehead and I was just like I don’t think I’ll listen to you guys man are you and then I ended up getting I’m not like really going to go into like was a motorcycle club member but won’t say his name we’ll protect the anonymity but but uh he was like Dan will you get on the effing ground and lick my boots to stay sober I was like I could work with this dude I was like yeah I absolutely will and I was like I can work with this dude you know like sometimes you need that sometimes you got to hear that you know and sometimes we need to be invested with people that are right next to us that are invested in that kind of way yes you know where we’re like actually willing to fight together for Recovery yeah and I’m will I’m a good enough friend of yours that if you Veer off that path yeah I’ll close come close to smacking you silly cuz I love you so much you know and that’s kind of what your crew reminds me of man like the people that you hang out with it’s like reminds me like the Mighty Ducks bro and it’s like the Flying V Flying V you know you’re taking off and the Flying V doesn’t come out of doesn’t come out of rhythm man it’s got to be this way for a reason and you guys just move into Community like this bop bop and sometimes you get bigger and thinner and bigger and thinner but the mission is clear the goal is attainable and for each and every one of you the goal is clear and it’s in in alignment with Peaks recovery too man it’s to save lives yes absolutely bro and it’s Mission critical yes so I wanted to bend into as well and I didn’t want to get off the podcast without talking about a lot of the resources that are coming up it’s Medicaid right yeah yeah with the Medicaid side of things but often times too and we talked about this in our last meeting when there tends to be often or a lot of resources moving into a market there tends to be a lot of abuse of those resources yes and so I want to bring in as these resources need to elevate and the funding needs to be there and it is I want to make sure that we’re seeing the most int connections possible absolutely so in an effort to continue to save lives and not hurt people yes so I wanted to chat with you a little bit about that how do how does somebody who’s accessing their Medicaid um and trying to utilize a community-based resource like yourself how do we find out similar to like calling you know the 13,000 private treatment programs how do we know what’s good yeah so uh I have a rule of thumb with how I measure some of these some of these places like there’s a couple of places that are very ethical but I never hear like oh this place saved my life I just don’t hear it and and and but there are a couple of places I in in there is some very unethical stuff going around in in the peer support recovery Support Services things with the billing yeah like like changing who they’re billing from in primary and that’s not okay you know but my rule of thumb is when I hear this certain place like oh this saved my life when I see their Community come together it’s kind you can kind of tell like Hey we’re out doing stuff we’re we’re doing this like I had this uh this group I’m not obviously not mentioning any names of anybody tonight but I had this group at the at the um at The Sanctuary Church Recovery Group the other night and there was like eight of them from this organization there just speaking life and active and doing things and I was just like I remember that I’m going to remember that and I’m going to send people to you because I see the fruit of what you’re doing and it was great cuz you could see it from like you can tell who’s like the head coach over they like like their kind of head person and then the step under and then their people like you can tell and just seeing the excitement and hearing about what they’re doing and their shares I was just like C can I just come and live at your house that’s Co you know yeah it it was super cool so definitely definitely like what you see and you’ll hear stuff like you hear in the community there’s places burning each other down and breaking off from other places and starting their own thing and I’m just like guys yeah it’s not supposed to be a hustle and Chris what what I’m really seeing with a lot of the people that start or like that are involved with these certain places it’s they’re sober I’m like what kind of program are you working what kind of program are you having people working and a lot of them from from my perspective and from some of the other people it looks Chris to me like they got sober and they found another hustle and it breaks my heart that they’re making this hustle human lives yeah and it’s just like about money I’m like I never hear about like what are you doing in the community and you you can see it if you look you know it’s but it it sucks that that’s going on because then you get some of these people and they don’t last at these places and then they go to these other very ethical very cool places and they try to take these other ways with them and they get called out for like you can’t do that so it’s like you got to retach them and hopefully they’re like oh okay cool or this but what we’re hearing and I’m seeing is like oh this is how this place is doing it so I’m making mental notes of that you know it’ss hard too cuz you’re you’re trying to offer Quality Care yes you know and recovery and opportunities for people to heal and when people come and offer a subpar resource it kind of It kind of undercuts the market and it displaces trust in the community that already doesn’t have any yes you know produce stigma not ramp it up exactly nobody’s like yeah I’m trusting all these people this is great yeah you know you got to give them reasons too but I love man and I know there’s a close circle of you and some people that are close to you that are just doing this amazing work in community both on the sober living side getting people active both and matter so so so much and then you guys are getting unplugged into communities which in my opinion we’ve talked about on the show before I don’t know if there’s anything more valuable than being seen valued and heard in the community yes you know to double down on purpose yes purpose is such a huge factor in there like you see these broken people and it’s back to what a minut getting out of Doc and they they don’t know but it it’s it’s so beautiful when you see somebody that just comes from what they would probably say is my life is a train wreck and when you show them hey you can take this train wreck and you can turn it into a page and someone else’s survival guide and then you just see that purpose light up and they just ignite and they just become this force of good it’s just like cool go do it we’re going to walk with you just to make sure everything’s good and oh it just builds and build and it’s leaders making leaders making leaders and impacting the community and then oh it just lights on fire it’s beautiful yeah man that’s going to be a real right there yes bro that’s going to be a real right yes bro did you say again you you quoted something yeah yeah leaders making leaders yeah yeah I think I got Survival Guide something yeah yeah oh oh yeah I did I saw that on a meme and I want to say it was associated with my dude John Maxwell but uh but it’s um uh your story is important because it can become a page in somebody else’s Survival Guide yeah I like that yeah cuz everybody story every morning he’s pop he pops up all over the place dude I love them quotes man I see him like putting like that like metal like that like metal music with it I’ll do a little hip-hop sometimes for my hip-hop people but yeah you know what I’m saying I love metal I used to always listen to hip-hop I don’t listen to it quite as much anymore yeah but I’ve been going back in the gym lately and doing 2000s ESS Central hip hop okay it’s been really nice oh kind of thing yeah like early 2000s that’s awesome like changy yeah that’s awesome yeah bro let’s go man so yeah absolutely love what what you guys are doing man you guys are obviously thriving in community for a good reason um you know something greater is blessing your soccer off for sure and I just love watch you vibrating in community and and to kind of hear the ripple effect as I sit down with people each and every week and have coffees and just to hear your name come up I don’t know that there’s any other professional that’s come up in a more positive light than you over the last six or seven years man I mean people speak highly of you the way that you walk the way that you talk is very very consistent and so to me very very trustworthy um so I appreciate what you do uh before we get off here I want to Dove tail in Dan still runs our alumni as well that’s right so let’s talk a little bit about Tuesday nights what do we have to look forward to what’s been going on what are we excited about um I’ve been going into the facility not on Tuesday nights but I’ve been going in on Mondays and Thursdays from 6:00 to 7: good and doing this little peer group yes it’s just been warm in my heart I love it I go in there and I don’t have a plan president founder going to the thing they’re like what’s up I’m like you tell me yeah I don’t know man six o’clock on a Thursday how are we connecting how are we getting a good night’s sleep what do y’all have for dinner why does it matter let’s do a meditation like anyway so it’s been nice for me but tell me a little bit about Al I will I just want say bro you don’t even need to go in with a plan bro just the way you present yourself could be the whole plan bro you you just go in there and say what you did bro and there’s wisdom and Recovery to it because you you walk the walk thanks yeah absolutely bro so oh alumni has been a blast we just this last Tuesday I brought in a whole bunch it was like seven or eight o of the alumni that was everywhere from a couple of years since they had been through the the main program and multiple parts of the program and all the way to they got out like they’re still in like you know PHP IOP had them come back in and had a bunch of the residential there and a whole bunch more of the alumni I just had them introduce thems tell a little bit about thems when they went through the program what parts of the program they went through and their say their favorite color oh that’s cool yeah and just the questions and the way they all answered it was it was different like everybody was different but the same there was so many similarities and you just saw like the the new were residential clients just have these just aha moments and they were just so grateful like I it it warmed my heart so we’ve been doing that and usually like the first hour we’ll do karaoke but it was so good this Tuesday with the panel Chris that we’re making it a monthly thing oh that’s so cool man are you starting to see cuz it’s like I remember when I was in treatment and the alumni would come in it was like drinking out of a fire hose like I couldn’t get enough information from them yes I was like get out of my way staff so you’re seeing like some of these residential clients really having life spoken into them by some of our alumni oh yeah that’s cool oh it’s so cool after too because like like sometimes like when we have a speaker it’ll end a little bit late you know that’s cool but I tried to end it like 5 minutes early just so the residential clients could have time and not not really get into the alumni you know I don’t to stay like super late but trying to respect their time a little bit so they could go and connect and it was just it was beautiful like three or four alumni talking meeting one of the residents and just speaking to them speaking life this is how I did this this is how this is what PHP did for me this is what IOP did for me this is my experience with the whole program and Oh So Co you just yeah it was so cool just to sit back just it was like I lit the fuse and then it just boom it just did it it did its thing it was it was so cool bro it was almost like the thing we used to do back in when you first worked for us in 2016 yeah when we used to share stories yes remember that yeah I do remember that just everybody that came in you have to share stories yeah like so new guy would come in and in the first 24 to 48 hours everybody had to share their story with them yeah before you know you’re part of the club yes that’s a beautiful thing it is it built that camaraderie cuz I know like back in like 2016 17 18 some of the guys from that program who still talk to each other I’m in contact still with a few of them and it’s like yo yeah I still talk to so and so I’m like that’s awesome like why don’t you I come back and talk sometime yeah I had one of them come back uh um probably six months ago from from I believe 16 or 17 came back and and spoke and talked about how different the program was and where he’s at now and it was it was magical did a great job you know what reminds me that it was 2016 as we used to have that picture in the hallway over at montabella and it was you with your beanie on and you were looking out over the mountains yes and it said something 2016 yeah and you were out on a Hut trip I think yep yeah man yeah that was still up at it’s still it’s up at the uh Brook Park now it’s up in it’s in the hall it’s still there I was like it’s almost 10 years ago that’s almost 10 years man we’ve been on a journey we’ve been on a journey bro it’s been cool so good who would have thought on that day like almost 10 years later here we are yeah uh more purposeful driven and connected than ever man it’s a it’s been an absolute blessing being your friend colleague cheering you on in community has been um one of my personal favorites dude so bro thank you it’s been an honor also bro I just want to say like like I don’t I think I say this often when I talk to you but like right when I got out of prison and I started with Peaks recovery I don’t even think you knew that I was the way that I was looking at you when we were going to the gym is I was like this is what my life can look like like I don’t think you knew that you were modeling something for me of of what my future could look like and I’m forever grateful for that bro yeah man thank so grateful for you and we are going to have Dan back on soon for more fun facts with Dan check us out probably sometime early summer late spring we’ll bring him back on let them know what the bridge is doing what our alumni community’s doing everything is hot and connected right now thank you so much my brother until next time thank you peace peace [Music]
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Episode 140When the Solution Becomes the Problem: with Dr. Michael BarnesWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/6-Yy7efTFpEListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Chris Burns welcomes special guest and industry leader Dr. Mike Barnes onto the show to share his impressive and exceptional knowledge on trauma, shame, parallel recovery, and so much more! From distinguishing between what you say and what you mean to discussing how you quantify success, Dr. Barnes and Chris engage in a riveting conversation that addresses so many vital topics in today’s world. Thank you, Dr. Barnes, for joining us in such an authentic conversation. For more information on Dr. Barnes, check out drmikebarnes.com.

Talking Points1. Introduction to the show 2. Dr. Barnes’ career and journey 3. “We’re all in this together.” 4. Signs of changing times 5. What you say vs what you mean 6. Parallel recovery 7. Addressing the grief 8. Family systems 9. Quantifying success 10. Looking at shame 11. Transgenerational trauma and addiction 12. When the Solution Becomes the Problem 13. Can you change the past? 14. drmikebarnes.com 15. nrtbh.com 16. Closing thoughts Quotes

“-You can’t change what happened, but you can certainly change your understanding of it.” -Dr. Mike Barnes

Episode Transcripts

Episode -140- Transcriptsyou can’t change what happened but you can certainly change your understanding of it only 7% of communication is the words that come out of our mouth and it used to be sobriety was the measure you know if you’re sober you’re successful that gave me chills cuz I know a lot of sober people who don’t feel like they’re being very successful right now spiritually mentally and emotionally that I have to come to terms with this might not turn out the way I want it to turn out that’s the grief [Music] hey everybody and welcome to another exciting and integrated episode of Finding Peaks Yours Truly Chris Burns president and founder I am joined today by somebody who dare I say I rever in our field Dr Michael Barnes PhD licensed addiction counselor licensed professional counselor also founder of the Michael Barnes family Institute correct which we’re going to get into here as well you sit on the board as the senior clinical adviser for The Foundry as well among other things author uh entrepreneur father uh grateful to have you Dr Barnes thanks so much I I you know just so happy to be here I I love doing these things so and I appreciate you know everything you all are doing and it’s really nice to it’s really nice to do something with another treatment center I I always like that collaborative stuff so it was really nice I always like as we were talking at the Symposium earlier we have the 50th annual uh winter Symposium going on we were just kind of checking in when when the first one we went to and um this kind of thing and Dr Barnes was you know was about 13 14 years ago you were looking at the pamphlet and say man I got to be at this conference and now you’re a keynote speaker yeah yeah what has that been like to kind of that that maturation process alongside kind of our Colorado provider group well I mean to be quite honest it a lot of it was really luck and a lot of it was really happen stance and I’ve been very fortunate to be in the right place at the right time A lot of times and um I had been on the faculty at University of Colorado Denver in the counseling program ran into Steve Mallette who was my supervisor uh at at Cedar and asked him who are you and what do you do and and um next thing I know I’m visiting over at Cedar and next thing I know I’m the clinical director at CER and it just sort of happens and um so um you know the state has changed a lot but I still I love the energy the you know that the conference was just such a fun time because you get to see all these old friends and people that you’ve worked with and over the years and it doesn’t have the same adversarial feel that some places has and the competition of of uh programs so um it’s been really interesting to watch the the growth of the clinical programming and the sophistication in increase from you know pretty kind of simplistic um clinical work to really being trauma informed and Trauma integrated and um you know culturally aware um and so I I think it’s um that’s the thing that’s most gratifying is to think maybe I had a little bit to do with that growth of the trauma integrated and and sort of brought a lot of that to the state when I came from Florida and maybe you have a lot to do with it you have a very unique lens of which you saw our field through I think uh a little bit differently than the average clinician and I hadn’t known that until we checked in at the Symposium but maybe talk with the viewers a little bit about how you worked as a clinician within the hospital system and how you kind of viewed the recovery process and maybe how that changed or shifted a little bit as you came into Behavioral Health so that where that story really starts it’s really interesting because I hadn’t thought about it in a long time is during Co I found a box in my garage when I was cleaning it out that had all of these papers that I written that I wrote back in the 1990s at Florida State and I opened the box and there was a paper on top that said um residential alcoholism treatment think how long ago it’s been since you heard anyone say that um it’s very specific yeah yeah um is a time for a family systems paradigm shift and I was being trained as a family traumatologist a person who works with severely traumatized families and worked uh as a um medical family therapist um so my phds as a family therapist but I I didn’t never I never really wanted to be in private practice I always liked working in Hospital systems and so um when I think about you know we tell clients all the time and we tell families all the time that addictions a chronic progressive potentially fatal Illness but we don’t really treat it like that and so as someone who’s worked in big hospitals I when I think of a chronic illness I I think of really a medical condition that is dealt with by a team of just like we do and uh but like I I what I did was I started reading as much as I could about diabetes and I started reading as much as I could about like multiple sclerosis and and I really went back to say chronic disease management has a really different view of how family should be involved than addiction does and addiction so what I did was I went back and I looked at 10 websites of 10 of the best treatment centers in the country and I because I I was getting ready to do a presentation and I want to talk about best practices but not from a scholarly perspective but what what do my peers do and it was all about you need to heal so that you can support this person in their recovery well that keeps that person in the identified patient role and when I started reading about medical chronic illness the the research said that when families start to heal together the person who has the chronic illness actually is much more like to manage that illness successfully when they come out of the patient role and really get rejoined into the family as a healing entity and so that’s my view and the idea of well you know you need to support your loved one is true and so the mission statement of our of the Michael Barnes Family Institute is helping families move Beyond we a family that supports a loved one in their efforts to recovery to we are a family in recover Rec y from addiction and Trauma and that that really opens the door to we’re all in this together and so the research would say if we’re all in this together and we have a an agreed upon um belief that this illness didn’t just impact Joe or Fred it impacted me too and it impacted all of us so if we all work together then that means we all heal and if we begin to look at things like 12-step work and going to meeting less as treatment and more as this is what people with chronic illnesses do they manage their illness by by doing healthy things for themselves and so I think of how many families have said to me when does this IOP end so that we can go back to normal and it’s like whoa come on hold on a second yeah that normal ship sailed a long time ago and so um and the last one that the research is really clear on is that person manages their ill better when other people in the family are willing to look at their own illness and to to when they can have a conversation not about hey how are you today and are you okay but um let me tell I’m really struggling today you know I’m to where everyone has that opportunity to say yeah you know I’ve been pretty impacted by all this too wow and for some reason the chronic issue of addiction hasn’t been dealt with in that way I remember it’s actually bringing up for me when I saw you speak shoot almost 11 years ago now in Aspen at the Limelight I think you were working for Cedar at the time and I remember you were talking about this this very thing you’re talking about right now and I remember thinking to myself yeah that doesn’t work Dr Barnes but this is amazing stuff out here on the ground level only to sit with you today and be like man you were speaking some truth 11 years ago well I was talking to we were talking today about that present I did with all the Neuroscience oh yeah and it was like it was so long ago it was you know 2013 and the looks on people’s faces are like what is this guy talking about yeah and now you can’t go to any conference without multiple people talking about that and and I don’t think you know I think that’s pretty cool to be honest um but I’m so grateful that we’re at a point now where um when you talk about neuroscience and talk about memory systems and you talk about how that impacts the the work that we do that that people aren’t looking at me like I have six eyes but it’s like oh yeah yeah we we’re trained in that now and so it makes a lot of sense from that approach too because when you kind of explained it from the medical side you know with type two diabetes you know mom might come home and dad would help her get the M&M’s and any things sweet out of here we’re not going to have the bread we got this thing hey we all did it together we’re in this fight I can remember my grandma was diagnosed years ago it was this thing everybody came in we did a house cleaning together we worked together to solve the problem oh it gives me chills that I’m saying it and some reason for addiction for so many years we’ve said it’s Joey’s problem let us know when you’re better yeah we love you and we want to be with you but it’s really you’re you you have to prove to us that you’re ready and um yeah I had a we were talking about laps and I said we were talking about how do you talk about a lapse and I said well I don’t know the answer really is how do you talk about it so that it lasts for three days rather than three years right and it’s how do you have a productive conversation about look we’ve all been trained we understand laps happens how do you get back on what do you need to do to get back on into your recovery program I you you were doing great how do we do that as opposed to the you know the the Rockets three months the Rockets burn you know blown up and the shame that happens and and usually families can get grasp that idea of it’s a really different conversation and I remember I had a mom say to me um well I can’t talk about relapse to my son I said why not and she said well it it’ll make him think that I condone it and I said I don’t think you have any you don’t have any role in it I I said yeah it’s like that’s his to decide and but the idea of you can talk to him about what you’re learning and how you’re learning it and what that means to you um without and and it’s not condoning it and so that’s the thing that’s been missing yeah and um the reality is if I ask my son or whomever six times in about four hours if he’s okay then what I’m saying to him is I don’t think you’re okay you know um um a guy at UCLA and I can’t think of his name did a study many years ago and he said that only 7% of communication is the words that come out of our mouth 93% is our nonverbals our tone of voice our facial expressions when we say it and you know you hear people having an argument and someone say that’s not what I said and they say well but it kind of is what you said you didn’t say those words but sure and so that’s a big part of what we’re trying to do in our family Institute is teach people to remember that you can’t not communicate or in Family Therapy we say what are you communicating when you don’t think you’re communicating and that’s what families I think get such change with when they realize they have to get really clear yeah and and be relational and that’s one of those things like we were talking about with kids earlier as we’ve learned like yeah actually being relational with kids in the developmental stages of their life is really crucial we didn’t know that but for some reason when people with addiction issues or substance Related Disorders check in all of a sudden we’re not relational it’s like here’s the RX here’s the plan let us know when you’ve checked the boxes it’s not like how do you feel to your point elapse gosh I bet you’re having some shame come up man that probably sucks wow yeah it does suck dad like I know man I’m but I’m here with you you know how do we get back on path together maybe you know I just love that and you can see those again again back to like the people feeling safe with the people that they should feel safe with is so valuable yeah it it’s um there’s I think families get such a bad rap in many in many environments and you know I hear I hear people saying well I just brought you the healthiest member of this family and when they drop a client off and and you know I’ve been a family therapist for 30 years and uh I remember I had a student that said what’s the best way to work with an unmotivated client and I said I don’t know I’ve never worked with an unmotivated client yeah and the whole room started started laughing and I said well you know all of my people that I work with are pretty highly traumatized and that that they’re just Mo they’re highly motivated to stay as safe as possible and that sometimes that safety keeps them stuck in the same patterns and it’s my job to address that with them rather than to write them off and if that if and I said to the students if you think your clients don’t know that you’ve written them off you’re kidding yourself trauma resilient not treatment resistant right right right right yeah mateline Pia she’s one of our admissions people that’s her thing yeah yeah so she gets on the phone and they’re like I’m treatment resistant you’re trauma resilient trying to stay safe we get it yeah but you just you just spoke to that so eloquently and that’s the truth yeah it is the truth and and um think what’s the first thing we do with a client who’s not who’s in a precontemplative state we use motivational interviewing and we don’t give up and we keep talking and we keep you know asking those questions and two-sided Reflections and but with families we tend to say well they just don’t want it they’re not ready and uh there’s there’s some research out there on motivational interviewing with families with addiction that’s pretty promising yeah and you talked earlier too about the kind of I know Lisa Smith talks about this too with reclaim recovery but kind of like a parallel recover recovery a lot of times and specifically at um the Michael Barnes Institute but as well as The Foundry how you guys do family programming maybe talk a little bit about how the families are kind of running through somewhat of a similar process to the individual how does that work yeah it’s really interesting so if you think about what I just said about a family recovery rather than family support that you know how do you make a decision that you need to recover well you have to come to terms with you have a problem and so so much of of what we’re really doing is educ so in our program it’s educating in really General ways until the family can say to us I have all of that and it’s like yeah yeah the idea of well it’s not my problem it’s his problem is or you know well I don’t know why I’m the one that needs to change I mean if he would just change and go back we could go back to normal and all of those things but once that family begins to decide on their own yeah that’s really interesting that’s fasc and they think they’re reading all of that stuff about their loved one to help their loved one and then they realize holy cow so the parallel process is do I have a problem do I have the problem that they think I have families go through the exact same thing why why are they telling me I need to do this I’m just here to support him I love him right um am I powerless do I have powerlessness and so what do traumatized clients use as a way to try to assume some power hypervigilance and control the two the the you know the cornerstones of the of the trauma Survivor and it’s the same hypervigilance and control that clients use in order to keep their addiction going but it’s it’s I mean it’s different but it’s a similar process and so um do I really need to go to those meetings just like clients will say well I want to get sober but I don’t necessarily want to I don’t think I need to go to all those meetings client families say the same thing and it’s like well I’m not going to alanon and then eventually they begin to realize I’m getting a lot out of this group with these other families maybe um when when someone brings up alanon and says you know I went to the best alanon meeting the other day and and and someone says well these people are really great they’re just like me yeah it’s like well where is it and suddenly now they’re going to that meeting and so I think sometimes we expect too much too fast and um you know think about it how often do you try to solve a problem that you don’t think you have oh yeah well and how often do you take recommendations that you think don’t match the problem that you’re trying to get out and one ear and out the other yeah and so that’s really kind of where I’m at with that is and we’ talked about it earlier that families will say well what do you think we should do and I I’ve learned that if I just tell them that there’s a natural defensiveness or something and I say well that’s a great question let’s talk about like what have you tried and so don’t like not getting into that but much more Wow Let’s collaborate look at what you’ve done and then think well maybe maybe there are some things that we can come up with but I I I can’t tell you I love that approach it’s it’s very present it requires kind of being where your feet are and you know meeting that family system where they’re at I guess one of my questions for you Dr Barnes are you seeing because as you’re talking I’m starting to feel it and I see it in our program a bit are you seeing that parents especially at the population we were talking about young adults are you finding that they you know grief week’s a real big thing for folks in treatment sometimes they go through grief they grieve necessary are you finding that families parents need to go through an authentic grieving process absolutely right it’s interesting I did a research project several years ago when I lived in Florida in my previous life and one of the one of the questions that we asked them to talk about what life is like as a parent and as a family member and one of the things that came out clearly was trauma was a big piece of it so in the study I asked them what’s the number one cause of your trauma associated with your loved ones addiction and you know you’d think emergency room visits and you know getting arrested and they said the shattering of dreams that I have to come to terms with this might not turn out the way I want it to turn out that’s the grief and that and they don’t want who wants to grief I I don’t want to G but that idea of that’s part of that parallel process is am I gonna am I going to be open to the reality of what I’m really facing and allow myself to work through it and so I think I think that grief piece is not addressed probably as well as it could be in treatment I think it should probably be a bigger thing and the fact that you’re noticing it and I’m certainly noticing it too I think more of us are starting to see it and um you know the other thing that’s so interesting is with insurance they’ve sort of done away with experiential therapy that you know and you’ve experienced it I’ve experienced it I’ve had great experiences with it and most of our clients will never see it until unless they get sober for several years and then go back yeah uh or to do something fun they pay out of pocket for yeah absolutely but 43 years ago when I started in the field that’s all we did was experiential work and work and um and individual therapy was a minimal part of what we did um it was all group group process and um I think that helps the grieving process like it helps a grieving process when you’re being sort of supported in that experiential piece and um and I’m a big advocate of tella Health um because it’s hard to get the steamboat if you’re a family member you know half the year you can’t get there half the time well half those people would never walk in the front door in the first place so they have this safety piece they’re in their own home which is really nice and I used to in the beginning because I was just such you know you get I used to throw a lot of shade at but now that I’ve been had the opportunity to zoom out I’ve think tell health is extraordinary that was my presentation at the conference this year was um um so I did a study at Cedar where I I started noticing something and we had a great family program it was literally literally known as one of the best in the country it was renowned and every Tuesday in that I would come in do the trauma lecture and talk to the families and I started noticing that it wasn’t the demographic that I expected it to be and so we did a study where January 1 2017 we did pre- and post um with with every family member and it it turned out exactly how I thought it would turn out the average person was between the ages of 55 and 65 female mother of the client okay who wasn’t there the wife of the client the partner of the client it was just Mom just moms wow and occasionally a dad uh occasionally a partner dad had to work right yeah but like yeah that and so I started to really think um and and now that I have an Institute and I’m out talking to people about it that people will very quickly say oh no no no no we have an inperson program and I say that’s great I mean I it is the gold standard I mean we but what if I can’t get there it’s not the gold standard for me if I can’t get there it it and it could be the best program in the world and so that’s when I really started to look at technology as a a way to
um to to make family services available to everyone our whole you’ll be happy to learn I mean it it was a pandemic thing and it was a cause of the pandemic but now we stick with it our whole family program is virtual this whole virtual platform pemma white does an extraordinary job and she prefers it that that way we got people all over the country oh and that’s the beauty of it is think of the relationships that are being built and like hours you can do it on your phone you can do it wherever you are and so I I think we’re we’re finally beginning to realize that just be I once had a supervisor that says I don’t care how you always did it like it’s not working we have to we have to change it and I think that’s one of the things that I’m seeing is that you know complains about like high-speed internet is everywhere now that you know it’s pretty reliable like we can do these things and so um and the research is really pretty clear that there are certain things that online can do better and there’s certain things that in person can do better but if you put them together side by side they’re pretty comparable and so um I think you know I and I know it’s not possible but it would be nice if every family that couldn’t travel to a family program got to have a virtual program like yours as well or a virtual program like ours and you know and some places do that and some don’t um but you know it’s it’s a philosophy that that they get to decide yeah I really I like the way that you approach that I love the way you approach family systems and really honor the process that is like the family recovery and it gets left out out so often and I’m sure we’ve talked about it before the show I’ve seen it in my career but I assume the recovery outcomes have to be double if not triple if not quadruple when the family involves thems within the process that their loved ones in and I’m sure you have data to support that too yeah it it it’s really true that um there’s not a lot of good data and the the hardest someone once asked me what’s your success rate there was someone in the field and I knew I could goof with them a little bit and I said 100% and they said oh stop and I said well the only people who ever return our calls are people who are doing well and the people who aren’t doing well don’t return our calls so 100% of our clients are doing well yeah and I said no no like the problem is we have to find out how to do the data collection better and you know who’s not afraid to tell you if their loved ones not doing well families all the time and so that was one of my thoughts as I started looking at allowing our families to come forever into our groups that um when someone’s relapsed that we notice their family shows up at group again and we can begin to look at you know how often is that happening how often are people coming back to get that support again and um you know the newbies in the group are oh my gosh relapse but it’s really powerful and it’s really helpful just like if you know our ogs the people who have been around forever and come in and say well he just had four years of sobriety uh and to be able to celebrate that yeah but also to realize when we talk about laps we’re not being negative right we’re being that actually doesn’t quantify lack of success no whatsoever well and that’s another one of those things in chronic disease management it’s like people with diabetes relapse way more than people with addiction and it’s like you know it’s it’s a it’s where we are right now and you get back on the the the process that you’re using to you know manage your blood sugar and um let’s try to keep it as short as possible so we don’t have other medical concerns but that’s where that medical piece comes in handy to let’s not shame anybody but it is hard yeah you make a really good point on that data because you know the viewers might be thinking well yeah know you’ve been doing the since 1935 where’s your stats to that point it used to be sobriety was the measure you know if you’re sober you’re successful that gave me chills because I know a lot of sober people who don’t feel like they’re being very successful right now spiritually mentally and emotionally and so I don’t think days in sobriety although it can quantify or in for mental health I don’t think it equals success I agree with you and I think that you know insurance companies and people are looking for that well so where’s the guarantee right and um I don’t know why our chronic disease is all that different to them than all the other chronic diseases they pay for like you’d you’d think that on some level there would be a level a Level Playing Field with well it’s of chronic illness and people are going to lapse and need ongoing treatment and just like that person who has U diabetes and needs to have a surgery or because they didn’t manage it but they it’s not like they say you don’t get that surgery right yeah or like don’t come back until you’ve done certain thing for x amount of days and then we can talk talk it’s like let me love on you let me walk you through this and and some of these chronic issues are avoidable similar to addiction but life’s hard sometimes you know all of this stuff to talk about parents grief is backed by the American dream you know Gabor mate spoke to this just so beautifully in the myth of normal it’s like I had to get up on and I say this all the time but I had to get up on Pike’s Peak to get the pot of gold that my family never had to realize there’s nobody up here yeah yeah and it’s like the age-old journey that a lot of people that suffer with trauma think that they’re going to get to this Pinnacle that’s on our TVs it’s in our newspapers it’s on our websites and we get there and not that you can’t have both end but the old adage that it’s Lonely at the Top can be really really experienced because we Sprint to the Mountaintop and we forget what matters along the way you know one of the big differences between chronic disease management and the medical environment and and for us is that we still see recovery as a as a destination and they don’t they see recovery as a process and to them recovery is this very Jagged line of ups and downs and doing well doing bad doing well doing bad and then eventually it starts gradually going up in plateaus and the person is managing their illness pretty well but for us the like you said sobriety is the deciding factor and so you’re only in recovery when you never go back or when you when you’re really that sober person um yeah but that’s not how others view it you’ve probably heard Dr Barnes where they get into recovery and they go you’re either going towards recovery or away from it oh man I’m having a bad day going souier yeah but oh man but with you may have some um some remission with your diabetes yeah may not a new season may come may spark some that’s a really good point and think about what we were talking about earlier about young adults and like brain development and developmental they don’t go through developmental stages because of the drug use well that person’s not going to benefit from Rehabilitation they’re going to benefit from habilitation like they still have things that they like rehab implies that you’ve already gone through all of that you have a healthy sense of self you’ve you’ve learned to cope your your brain has developed you’re ready for it we’re just going to bring you back and for the young guys that I work with and you you’ve worked with getting sober is the scariest part because they don’t know how to do any like they haven’t gone through those and so for that person to see recovery as a destination it’s going to take a while maybe for that person to get to a point where they really believe everything and they really understand everything and the the brain development has a chance to happen and to kind of work through you know they go to sober living and and positive things that um I think the recovery is a destination for that person could be a a real killer yeah to be honest really can be and I experienced that a lot in the early stages of Peaks those were like this end point and when they got to it it wasn’t the room they thought they’d be in in the shame catapulted right and if if there’s I don’t know at least in my experience of 16 years doing this I don’t know that there’s anything more synonymous with addiction than shame and so what can we do today Dr Barnes to meet people where they’re at in an effort to just remove the shame or at least dismantle it or to your point as we’ve talked counterbalance it you know I think about shame a lot and and it’s one of the things that I love about 12-step work is that I think it’s really the best place to heal shame to be to be honest I agree you know when someone comes into a room and says something that they did in their addiction and everyone in the room looks at each other and goes ony yeah I remember I remember that and so that I and so that idea of I am with my and and so I was I was reading a book um it was written in ’95 it was written by William white and it’s called Pathways and he talks about tribes and he said that when we think of culture and culture being these overriding Rights and Wrongs goods and bads um um meaning belief systems and philosophies of life and then we talk about the the culture of addiction and how it really is a culture but it’s a culture that intended to support active addiction well white takes it down to an even smaller figure of people that he calls tribes and tribes are the people who use the same drug as you and he said if someone is going to hang around with a group of people for 20 years an act of addiction they’re getting something out of that and that so often when they come into treatment the treatment environment is so negative about nothing good ever happens with the addiction is that it it’s not true for that person I got my affiliation with that person I got my friendships with that person uh you know now I’ll use while you sit with the Naran in case I overdose and and there is fellowship in that yeah and white said that if we cannot convince a client convincingly that they can get the same things in recovery that they got out of that group that lifelong recovery is impossible and that’s where I think the shame piece is to be able to hear that and to say what what did you get out of that instead of always and we certainly have to talk about the consequences and the bad things that have happened but um if we’re gonna join with them and help them to be able to talk about things without shame then we have to be really curious with them and it’s like wow that’s really interesting that is is a Cutting Edge can you get that maybe in a meeting yeah is there I want you to pay attention to some of the guys in here or maybe some of the staff that you know are in recovery begin to look at maybe some of the things that they have and how do you get that here but if we if we if we don’t address that then um the shame isn’t going to go away I love what you said there because it’s I remember going up to speak in my first meeting and they were like you’re going to tell your story for an hour I was 12 months in a day sober and I’m and they’re like stay out of the problem get into the solution but I kept thinking the problem was the solution the whole time I’m like I want to talk about this feels very heavy and loaded but these were my people this was my community this is where I was fortunately or unfortunately seen valued and heard yeah there’s something to this I think it dovetails into kind of something that I certainly wanted to chat with you about before we get done with when our Solutions turn into problems your book author when did you publish when was that published it was published at the end of 2023 okay okay pretty recent but it’s it’s so telling maybe we can kind of climb into that a little bit because I remember being in fifth grade and I remember my right leg tapped something fierce and I was the middle child and I couldn’t sit still I couldn’t keep my hands off of people and they would ask me a silly question like what’s wrong with you and I didn’t know so I gave you a terrible answer but then in sixth grade I took my first drink I was hanging out with some guys that were older than me and right away my light my right leg stopped to shake stop shaking MH a community that I was fearful of I was almost thrusted in into the middle of and I felt seen valued and heard in that moment and so it was really difficult for me to not take that drink in seventh grade and eth grade and 10th grade and 12th grade in college um and it began to kill meh but there was a moment in my life where if I didn’t have it I don’t know where I would be how does that happen well I mean like trans transgenerational traumas and and um you know the passing of addiction from one generation to the next and all of those things um you know I think our understanding of family Dynamics are way more um kind of informed than they were at any time and I think the the role of of trauma plays into that so I think there’s there’s you know Paul early who’s a fellow in the American Society of addiction medicine says there are three ways that people become addicted they they either have a genetic predisposition or the epigenetic factors of of that something changes yeah something changes associated with the DNA and um or you you’re self-medicating or you’re in an environment where that’s all you know it is so normal and I think about that the idea that if I what I don’t get in my family I’m going to seek out and my family had generational addiction lots of trauma that we didn’t I didn’t know what trauma was I just thought things were like every family was like that and so um um I I think that’s so one of the things I was talking to today I was teaching a class today that we were talking about when when you start using an 11 or 12 you not only get the relief but it sort of you organize your life around it yeah and getting it you know procuring it using it being with your friends you probably go through multiple friend sets until you finally get the one that really uses the way you want to use people yeah and you know you lose those childhood friends the neighborhood kids that aren’t going to do what you’re going to do and and I just think there’s you know we always want to get to that factor of why does that happen and because something’s missing um you know the sematic psychotherapy look at attachment as not just relationship but when a child cries they’re in distress they’re needing someone to come and reg help them regulate and so the sematic folks think what attachment really is is a child in disregulation being regulated by a parent who is re reg um regulating their own autonomic nervous system and so some of us didn’t grow up with that my mom didn’t know how to do that she she loved us dearly and did everything she could but no one ever helped her regulate right and so you know I think it’s Case by case and it’s part of each client’s Story how they got to that yeah and I think it’s easy for me because I to me everything is a trauma you know it’s it’s clear yeah you know uh not not to make that happen so it’s interesting if I have a if I’m at The Foundry mhm and we have a client 25 years old and uh I’ve looked at his his career as a as a user short as it probably was and I see that they’re um they’re kind of a failure to succeed they you know it’s always been a struggle academically and you know um you know they may have been good at sports but you know there were other issues yeah I’ll always ask them so what’s the big secret in your family what happened in your family that got you here and they’ll say I don’t know what you’re talking about I said come on like wow no one gets here without something and and then we find out from the family program that his brother died in a car accident when he was 12 and mom went into a severe depression after the accident and his drinking started two months after the accident and then the you know there’s just always something and so the trick in that to me is how to bring the family into that discussion Without Blame right without shame too yeah it’s the yeah how do I insert you into this and you’re a part of it without pointing fingers and that’s a interesting transition how do you how do you find is the best way to walk with families into that process because we talked earlier about you know sitting with clients and hey what do you need me to do you know that’s yet to be explored so how do you approach that with families I’m sure you don’t give them the to-do list and say hey get get done with one through five and we’ll see before next Group Well the way we’ve designed the app is is is to start with their strength and their strength is that they love their family member and they want to learn everything they can learn to help that person remember they’re being brought into a culture that they think that the goal is to support their loved well we’re going to shift that with them in time but that idea of well let’s teach you what you want to know what is addiction how does it work what’s powerless is it really an illness those kinds of things and then we’re going to the next module is going to be on trauma and um and by the end of that module the family start to say well I have all of that my dad myom yeah and once that shift begins to happen the next module is on family trauma and how addiction traumatizes family systems whether it’s granddad’s addiction whether it’s Dad’s addiction whether it’s son’s addiction whether it’s husband’s addiction whatever and and and I so we call it like developmental learning we don’t have those like they’re always getting the discussion of you know it’s a family issue it’s a family recovery but we don’t I don’t expect them to jump into um just I’ll do anything right they say that sometimes but but that that’s aspirational in most cases um we did a study at Florida State where we we assessed families with addiction who were brand new to the process first Tre men or what have you first first and then we studied families who had longstanding multiple and what we found is that they both wanted different therapists completely different this person got frustrated if I tried if we tried to be too collaborative with them look we don’t know what we’re here to to learn like coaching is really what they want they want somebody to say here here’s the things here’s organ here’s a game plan yeah and if you get too collaborative it’s like if we had those answers we wouldn’t be sitting here with you but the people who are have been through the process a lot of times just couldn’t tolerate a hierarchical therapist and the idea that we think we’re the expert because we have a degree doesn’t fly it’s they’re the expert because they’ve been through it for so long and they understand and that they want a collaborative therapist one who’s going to listen that discussion of what have you tried rather than you need to do these things that works with this one that doesn’t work with this one yeah and so I think sometimes our Family Programs are too programmed and they’re not really able to adjust to the needs of what a family it’s kind of like no no no you need to learn these things and we’re going to we’re going to do that um and so we’ve tried to create a A system that has both therapists and coaches because some people need coaches and some people need therapists and as they’re working through the process that we’re we’re kind we’re able to sort of meet them a little easier where they are and the other thing is not expecting them to just jump into the system like right they have to be ready to do that yeah because that can feel unauthentic too when they don’t and then you’re like hey you didn’t do the homework but as you’re talking I’m starting to kind of like zoom out of what I’ve done for the last 16 years and just kind of come over to the family corner and to see that some of those folks might be coming in with more shame than their loved ones oh my gosh especially with what we got you know talking about the American dream and what we have on our TV and what you’re supposed to be as you know someone in this United States of America today the shame for them and so ensuring that you’re allowing them to walk into a seamlessly safe process to not catapult that shame is something that I don’t think we’ve thought about as providers enough well and how many of those family members grew up in families where there was addiction and said I’m never going to talk to my kids that way M and I’m going to love my kid and and I’m not going to be mad at them if they have problems and then over the course of time and and so it’s interesting like think of compassion fatigue that we think of as therapists burnout and secondary trauma when that term was first identified it was identified in at UCLA I was at Florida State we were working on secondary trauma and the person who identified the term um compassion fatigue wrote a letter to my supervisor and said wow it sounds like we’re talking about the same thing you’re you’re talking about secondary trauma and we’re talking about burnout and when we first started and I I remember seeing the letter and I remember Dr Figley who was my mentor saying what do you think of the name compassion fatigue I said I think it beats the hell out of secondary trauma yeah it’s so much better I’d rather believe I have I have compassion fatigue than I that I’m just being traumatized and but but my point of that is we thought it was really about families of adct addicted families Where What Where compassion fatig was that the there there’s two functions happening one is we have to figure this out and that we’re going to spend all of our so we talk about an 8020 rule that what we find is the families spend 80% of their time on one family member and 20% on other family Y and they’re hyper they have the exact same trauma symptoms as someone with PTSD they have hypervigilance they have control they have intrusive thoughts they don’t sleep they have um they’re disregulated and we do collect data on this the the symptoms that families bring in and it’s pretty compelling to look at they’re they are as traumatized as could be and so um they’re just functional as can be yeah and that idea of so why I called the book when the solution becomes the problem that’s a term we’ve used in Family Therapy for a long time because it it it it basically says that families do the best they can like and it’s based on how they understand the problem and what resources they have available to them and as therapists some of our job we think is to give them resources and then they don’t use them and we get upset when the resources that we give them don’t match their understanding of the problem and I wouldn’t use resources that I didn’t think matched and so that idea of spending more time on the on the um the understanding there’s a a famous quote about that says the problem isn’t the problem the problem is the family’s constraining about the problem because we have a problem sure but but it’s our understanding of it that gives us the ideas of what we should do about it mhm and so that’s why when I say we start with educating not expecting a lot of change until the person begins to say h wow I think I’m seeing this differently wow that’s that’s a that’s the change that we’re talking about that’s huge it actually reminds me of my mother and I’s relationship you know for years when I grew up my mother was addicted um what I should have said all these years was my mother struggled with severe depression of which sometimes she engaged with substances to get out of the chair turn the lights on do the things that normal people do how did I learn that last year I’ve been in recovery a long time yeah and especially for a 39-year-old and I had my mom out last year she was visiting the boy she’s a great grandmother and I was talking to her about substances and she said yeah I just been depressed my whole life I’m 38 years old mom I never knew you were depressed oh yeah makes a lot of sense makes tremendous amount of sense cu the world told me that you were this thing and then I believed it and I said those things too and it couldn’t be further from the truth I’m grateful to be able to see my mom in that way today because it invites so much compassion um yeah I asked a doc I was teaching a doctoral class and I asked I said I’m G to ask a simple question can you change the past and every single person in the room said no the past happened and and so when we think about perception of problems we also tell a story about the past that has some truth and some not truth and and they looked at me and they said well clearly you disagree with this I said clearly I disagree with you and I said you know if we can begin to understand the circumstances of the story that we tell and um and I had an experience with my mom that was very similar to what you had and I began to realize just how traumatized she wash and I had compassion for her and the anger that I had for a lot of the things that had happened when we were kids and the conflicts and stuff and it was you can’t change what happened but you can certainly change your understanding of it and it’s really different if my belief is that my mom was really mean as opposed to my mom was really like traumatized and sure and so if we can change the story we we can change our response to the to the past and and I was watching a therapist who was a Vietnam vet doing therapy with a Vietnam vet and I’m sitting behind the mirror watching it and um it was one of those guys that was a really angry vets and you know really blamed himself and drank himself almost to death and and the guy started the other guy started doing um EMDR with him and all of a sudden the guy came out of the EMDR and he said you know I was only 17 years old when I went to Vietnam and the other guy says yeah so was I and he said any 17-year-old would have done what I did I a kid it’s like thank you Jesus you know thank you that’s EXA junior senior in high school that’s what and and he said I guess I’ve been pretty hard on myself now they had done multiples it wasn’t just like one session did it but I was watching and I just thought that’s where change happens yeah so when the solution becomes the problem is that when the problem is understood differently it opens the door for new Solutions and there’s so much reparation and healing in that absolutely of the past can we change it no but can we begin to inform it differently and heal from it in a present way and to your point I love that you said that because it’s something that my mom wouldn’t be able she would be able to articulate if I asked her but I haven’t asked her but she just shows it in community and in connection with me that she’s seen today and she’s valued and she’s heard and you can tell sitting with her there’s nothing else in this world that matters I mean it’s like we got grandkids we got some food on the table I got my son who sees me this is heaven yeah you know and I’m so grateful to have such extraordinary humans and professionals around me like yourself like a lot of the people we have in our field like a lot of people we have in this Colorado provider community that is tight it and connected I just I love being able to sit in front of you and just ask you questions and learn about how we can move into this process together one day at a time yeah I think it’s awesome and I think this is how we changed the world I love that people you know I always tell guys you know even in early recovery I’m like you ready to change the world cuz you’re already doing it it’s a beautiful thing and The Purpose Driven lifestyle that this recovery process can give people can really set Folks up on a trajectory trajectory of success that is absolutely stunning and beautiful to watch and so I really really appreciate Dr Barnes I mean just having you on the show being able to sit with you an hour before our viewers are all the better um through just hearing you explain things and just a really valuable and uh to my point earlier an authentic way um so people can hear them taste them smell them integrate them uh it’s really bring a privilege Dr Barnes before we go your website um just for the viewers make sure they can find you on there your book as well as the foundies website three things so um my website is www Dr or. drr Mike Barnes um.com okay and Mike not Michael Mike I was Michael when I was in trouble so I so I always Christopher Michael I always do Mike so um and um the The Foundry website is www. nrt next right thing behavioral health or Nick and it’s nrtb
docomo in in Broomfield we’re opening some new iops um that are um going to be downtown again like where we used to be cool and so just so many good things happening and uh you know there’s a lot of good treatment in Colorado these days so really happy to be a part of it yeah so grateful for you Dr Barnes and Ben Court the founder up there um and what he does for the community you know when I look at something like nrt I think that’s got an integrous backbone and I know how Ben stands on that and you all stand on it you are you do what you say and say what you mean and I think that just matters so much more than actually what we’re doing the why that you speak so clearly thank you so much Dr Barnes and I appreciate it like it’s really nice to hear that and I do really appreciate it and that um we’ve talked about it I’ve been really lucky to fall into the right places and uh and so I’m pretty grateful about the career that I’ve had you and I both Dr Barnes appreciate you so much until next time everybody please check us out on Spotify Instagram anywhere you get your podcast you can watch past previous episodes this one we’ll be out in no time until next time peace that was awesome [Music]

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Episode 139A Raw Journey of Recovery, Acceptance & Resilience with Adam YeagerWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/BZBUdRGbO3cListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Chris Burns brings Peak’s co-founder and Intake Coordinator, Robert Patton, to the show for the very first time to help welcome Peaks Recovery Centers Alumni Adam Yeager. Together, these three engage in an authentic conversation that includes personal stories, trials, and tribulations, as well as the importance of acceptance and so much more. Adam shares his journey to Peaks and expresses the immense ways his life has changed since his time in treatment. Thank you, Adam, for engaging in a wonderful and vulnerable discussion with us.

Talking Points1. Introduction to the show 2. Adam’s Journey to Peaks 3. The people around you 4. The power of authenticity 5. Acceptance 6. The people you attract 7. Authentic relationships 8. Overcoming grief 9. Developments in the industry 10. The stigma of suicide 11. Final thoughts Quotes

“I get chills talking about it. We go to this place in treatment and we are all like, ‘man, it feels so good to be honest, and connected in that honesty.’ Is it pain, is it brokenness… It’s authenticity, gosh, and it’s magical.” – Chris Burns, CEO of Peaks Recovery Centers

Episode Transcripts

Episode -139- TranscriptsI don’t care how you got here or what got your foot in the door for sure you but if you if you put the work in it’s going to change you’re going to know why you’re here you’re going to know you need to be here you know is it pain is it Brokenness is it it’s authenticity gosh and it’s magical but for me it was just the mental health side of the of of Peaks that kind of got I mean it got me sober when you turn vulnerable that’s where your authenticity comes out right [Music]
hey everybody and welcome to another exciting amazing and unique and special episode of Finding Peaks Yours Truly president and founder Christopher Michael Burns joined today by my co-host and co-founder Robert Patton III as well as our guest Adam joerger alumni friend welcome grateful to have thanks for having me welcome guys how you doing today my friend it’s good seeing you well too it’s good to see you man we just spent some time as we do before the episode just connecting man it’s been about an hour and 5 minutes and could just sit here and and talk in an authentic and connecting space with you um because that’s where I met you um at Peaks recovery in 2022 that’s right um and Bobby and I were talking about it with you a little bit it was the first time we had ever had a hug that was longer than 20 seconds and it was wildly uncomfortable but I have gone forward from there and exchange that oxytocin release with so many people and um so grateful to have you in the studio so grateful to call you a friend so grateful to have you in the community spreading the good word of recovery um before we get into where we’re at today I wanted to talk a little bit about how you find found Peaks what was going on in your life as a professional a human a father a husband a brother a son kind of what was going on there for the viewers and maybe some people that are sitting on the edge of that phone call and sitting on the edge of that courageousness or that courage that it takes to pick up that phone um maybe walked them through what that was like for you and when you did pick up that phone was that experience yeah it was it was um crazy for me that I was going to put my put myself in rehab I never thought it would be be that guy I don’t know if I guess a lot of people don’t think they’re going to go to rehab but for me it was a a a time in my life where my wife and I were getting we’re kind of moving apart a little bit and we moved so far apart where um my my coping mechanism with some of the things that were going on were drinking so I was drinking um you know I would drink like five six beers a night maybe I I parted a little bit harder but my wife started seeing that and I was hiding it from her during that time and she gave me an ultimatum you either go to rehab me you you figure out your stuff or we’re getting into separation and it wasn’t a divorce I was like well separation ational you know she’ll see all the progress they’ve made and things like that but it happened um right before Christmas on January 22 where she said um if you don’t if you don’t go to rehab I’m leaving you completely so it was kind of a you know kind of a wakeup call I’m going to lose my wife and I’m focusing on partying and drinking and and funding his other outlets to um to cope with what I was going through and um it was like nothing for me I don’t want to lose my wife and probably am drinking too much and I’m not um doing anything to help myself stop so um just going through the computer and looking at reviews and just kind of look at demographics and Geographics and what you guys are you know what you guys serve us at at the you know at Peaks and um called a bunch of other ones um and I saw some reviews on you guys you guys were the second call I made okay and it was it was tough for me to make that call but everything just felt like it was working out as the universe wanted it to right first place didn’t look that cool I don’t know maybe I would have went in there if they had they had beds Peaks came up had beds you want to come in today and I was like today I’m going like moving I got to get packed and stuff but you know getting into Peaks and and knowing the type of care you guys use and all the awesome reviews you get and M for me is um going back to to the idea of like labeling yourself as like I I never say like I am an alcoholic right right or I am a piss I’m pissed off or I’m angry it’s like just you are you’re just having those feelings today and um coming there and being able to get into the I don’t want to do the AA stuff I just didn’t feel like that was a good fit for me just from past experiences but for me it was just the mental health side of the of of Peaks that kind of got I mean it got sober but just like the the things like who would have thought like sitting in a bathtub I don’t take baths who would have sat in a bathtub for 15 20 minutes and just turn all the lights off and meditate and who would do all these mental you know mental health things like pray and and do breathwork and exercise and do all these things where it wasn’t it wasn’t just coming into a Peaks being like AA you’re not using your phone this is on lockdown is it was more of a comfortable environment and supportive environment to get the help you need right and not only the help you need to get sober but like find out like what’s in there that’s bothering you right and for when I was at Peaks and I heard stories of guy saying you know they were raped and they were like I’ve never even told anybody this Adam and I’m telling you this like I’m bisexual or like whatever the case may be it was just an awesome place to just come in and support each other and you know having a group where you know we had a lawyer yeah and there he never drank or did drugs in his life yeah but he was he was a lawyer that was out of his mind depressed and he came to Peak he wasn’t a drug Al drug or alcoholic he was there for mental health right wildly successful wild wildly successful um and for me I wanted that space to not go in and be like you’re a drug addict you’re an alcoholic you’re doing this it’s like what what is bothering you and how can we correct that mental health so the tools that were that I was expecting to go into you guys had you provided them right yeah so it’s like s doing weird [ ] I don’t even tell people I go to I went to rehab I said I went on a retreat went on mental health Retreat yeah right taking baths getting up and doing doing yoga and doing all these different things was um what got me sober and what got me to the spiritual journey I’m in today and I don’t if I didn’t go to Peaks and I didn’t get that ultimatum from my ex-wife now I’d probably just still partying and you know hanging out and being in the situations I’m in right now struggling yeah you know there’s other ways to to kind of digest that yeah for so many of us it’s external motivators that that get us in right and then we get in there and if you arrive in a place that where you’re meant to be and and for some people Peaks isn’t you know where it’s meant to be it’s it all depends you know absolutely it’s about perspective and willingness and acceptance Peaks works if you come in and you’re willing and your practice practice acceptance I think then it it it works for you you know and if you want to get sober yeah and and and most of us I think we’re um there’s a lot of external motivators that get us in the difference between success is is when you get yet there becomes internal motivator I know absolutely such a great Point too and and your point like for the viewers like and we were talking about this before the show I just wish more people would be able to see quality of life issues see them be informed by some mental health care and see their opportunity and take the shame off their back because you know you you just described a what some people would consider a problem Drinker um professional six figure income doing the thing father do I have a problem sure maybe am I alcoholic I don’t know no but you made this decision and it was external motivators that that got it done but I want to to be clear for people is like it doesn’t have to get to from a substance driven perspective yeah what we think we need to see in order to get the help and the tools necessary to not just survive in this life but Thrive and because of that courage and because of that commitment that you made you all in that setting were able to Foster something really really unique you and your peers what was that and why is it so important and does it matter today yeah and I think a lot of people you talk about like the people you hang out with today or like whatever you drink with them or you go outside and have a cigarette with them or whatever whatever the case may be um here it was just the brotherhood like I’ve never had such a connection and just go on to Peaks where I felt so comfortable crying like like all I want to do is cry all day long right it so encouraged like cry cry like you see these big guys like you would never think they would cry and these all I’m so sorry but I think being in that environment where you’re with other addicts and you’re with other people that have mental health issues yeah where you can all relate like well I’ve never smoked meth for 5 days but you know I smoked pot I smoked a pound of pot in a week or whatever the case is right but um same yeah it’s the same thing we’re all in here for kind of the same thing right but it was cool to just have that when you turn vulnerable that’s where your authenticity comes out yeah right yeah and it was just people to give you that love and support you know some of these people weren’t supported to go to rehab they don’t have any support like I don’t care what you do right but then you have a lot of guys like we were with that had support and wanted to get better for their for their you know friends and family and I think that’s what it was for me right I wanted to go get better for my wife didn’t work out um maybe the universe did for me what I couldn’t do for myself I know it probably shouldn’t have been with her but just having that support oh you’ve been divorced before what is that like hey you’ve got a DUI what is that like just just to have that connection and the comfortable um space to kind of cry for some in somebody or like do a coffee talk with somebody it just I mean it’s so valuable you know it’s it’s not like go you know you’re done with your classes go play ping pong for you know the rest of the night or something right it was more of like structured you got to be here at 6:00 for this meeting you got to be here at three there’s accountability which a lot of people don’t have right yeah a lot of drug addicts and and and what mental health issues something they don’t have right so it’s um just a love and companionship and just the actual program right we loved all of our all of our um psychologist and things like that I mean you had some of the best psych like you know pamma and things like that it’s just like unbelievable man she was Buddhist I talk to her about Buddhism all the time it was just cool getting all the spiritual thing but just connections even outside of your your peer group you know you get relationships with nurses and it’s like you’re a family like I I just belong to a Peaks right those those my placeat you get to Foster that in other relationships and other fellowships and communities it doesn’t have to be we talked earlier Landing in Peaks allows you to get vulnerable because you’re around like-minded people who are going through the same thing who feel just as lost just as broken you know just as confused and so it’s easy to get vulnerable you know and and not easy but that’s that’s generally where it happens that’s why the group setting is is what it is you know because you’re around individuals who different walks of life different issues different diagnoses different addictions and and but all you’re all there you’re sitting in the seat next to the guy yeah you’re still sitting there you know there’s a guy that walks in and says I’m not like that guy but you’re sitting in the seat next to him that’s he saying right you know and you’re like I’m not like that guy and then your best friends are Ryan Le so that’s you know and that’s and that’s the beauty no matter I always say and I probably told you we sat down for the first scy talk I don’t care how you got here or what got your foot in the door for sure but if you if you put the work in it’s going to change you’re gonna know why you’re here you’re gonna know you need to be here you know and and that’s um that’s the beauty of it that’s the that’s the reason I knew I wanted to be there and like things happen where as as adexs you’re always saying sorry but like one thing with TSH whether we got divorced or not like thank you right thanks for giving me that ultimat looking that sucked like I don’t know what’s going on I’m going to rehab like I’m successful you know it was um more of a blessing than a curse if I remember correctly you you wrote your first thank you when you were in Peaks mhm I remember thatle yeah and it’s as you guys are talking I’m sitting here thinking like is is treatment or Peaks a place you go where you’re broken you have trauma and mental health issues or is it a place where we go and we just tell the truth and we’re authentic yeah is is that what it is because there’s nowhere that I ever felt safe in this world going in and being like hey man I felt sad yesterday because I was hurt because this thing happened there’s no space for it in environment no and so we we go to this place I mean get chill talking about we go to this place and treatment and we all like man it feels so good to be honest yeah and connected in that honesty is it pain is it Brokenness is it g ah yeah it’s authenticity gosh and it’s magical you know and and you in that group always remind me of that opportunity to be where our feet are and really experience that energy man and as I told you before we got on the show there’s some serious intention with bringing you on the show is like I think sometimes we get into these recovery stories and it’s sunshine and it’s rainbows and it’s beautiful and sometimes it is um in the midst of chaos and pain and intensity but I I kind of wanted to start when you when you got out of treatment right away you had you did family with pemma you had every intention you’re one of the greatest fathers I know thank you um you’re an an amazing friend and I know one of your biggest intentions was you I want to keep this family together I want to do whatever I can to do this yeah and that wasn’t the way it worked out how did you navigate that how do you navigate it with such Grace and to your point acceptance as far as like split splitting up with my wife and yeah like what that process like it’s a lock in out of I mean I think when you exit the program with a result different than what you came in for you came in with these external motivators to save your marriage save your family right sure and for some people when they walk out and that doesn’t happen they we want them to be capable to move for board and see the light and see this different chapter and see this journey and see that as just part of life and something that happened what you learn in Peaks was to walk through that right for sure you know walk through that separation that divorce you know um and and what is it like when you walk out not having the result you came in or um having the um the family unit put back together that you were looking for sure you know when you came in how do you when you walk out take what you’ve learned and move forward and and and still feel resolved sure and I think from for me it was in the beginning I was doing it more for TSH than myself like I have a problem drinking too much right but um having that kind of ultimatum was kind of pushed me towards it right where I don’t think I would have gone to Peaks without her like that right right yeah but when I got out of Peaks and I was sober and I’m I’m allowing energy and Vibes in the universe to come inside your head where you’re you’re blocking energy being [ ] up all the time um like the acceptance thing like I’m now that I’m sober I just think about our relationship and it wasn’t meant to be I was drinking a lot because I was scared of her a lot and what happened not an excuse like it’s all her fault right but it turned having a good drinking with with friends and having a good time to drinking before I went home because I’m in trouble for something right right I didn’t put the dishes away or I didn’t [ ] vacuum the right way um but it was just that acceptance like now that I’m sober and I came out of Peaks I have all this these tools to like become who I want to I should have a I should have a different girl in my life just like you you found somebody that is spiritual and loving and kind like how long you been looking for that I didn’t realize how long I was looking for it you know that’s that’s the reality of it is you know you until you’ve made the change and you attract that person um and that person sees in you you know something that that that they see beautiful as well we have to change to become that you have to change my current wife would not have probably wanted anything to do with the Bobby in in 2020 yeah for sure you know seriously that’s the reality of it you know it took a 2020 to put me into a position to where I had to make changes in my life to become a better person and and look Inward and see um you know what’s important and out of that you know came that that relationship you know so yeah um yeah I remember you told me that you said I think you said the 2018 you know she never would have been interested in the 2018 Bobby I was like you are absolutely correct would not have happened right but but it’s amazing to see you know that divorce would have happened either way for you with or without Peaks it would have definitely happened without Peaks no question right and and so having that opportunity to learn how to walk through all that um you know yeah I’m I’m really proud of you for the work you did thank you and I think one of the things that I always brought up in our group meetings when I was at Peaks is like for me it was like you know I just turned 45 and then you know kind of on a bender for whatever I’ve been drinking my whole life and having fun you go to Ocean City it’s a whole different world but um so I would sit around I would think like on a Wednesday night like I’m drinking beers and I probably had like six or eight beers I’m like wonder what my other friends or co-workers or professionals are doing my age at home are they sitting around like drinking beers and like hiding it from their wives and like maybe probably a lot of it but for me I was just like when I got sober I’m like it’s time to grow up like normal people at 43 44 you know 45 getting hammered every night yeah that are professionals maybe there are you know people hi it well but it was it’s just time to grow up mhm just be drunk all the time the rest of my life yeah that’s kind of one thing I learned getting sober and just kind of getting getting responsibility of like I have a huge responsibility at work I’m successful but then I have this other part where it’s my my kids and and um you know TSH and you know my family um we’re just just time to grow up dude we 45 years old yeah you know and I kind of realize that when I was at Peaks like normal people don’t normal normal normal people some people that drink the gall I don’t know what that life’s like but people that um you know I just I just recommend going to Peaks and having it it’s just going to change your life as far as getting sober you start realizing like some of the things you have to sit with and maybe you know things aren’t the way that you want them to go but now you get to deal with deal with those Being Sober yeah it’s easy to drink right every night to avoid your wife or do whatever the case may be but it’s a lot harder to be sober and work through some of these challenges right and for me you know my har my brother died on the 24th my Harley got stolen on the 26th I lost a huge account at work this was all in like two months dude you know and um what am I going to do I can’t I can’t complain I want to get my account back I’m not going to be able to get it back sit around I wish I was married get it back just acceptance doesn’t change anything well I there’s nothing I could do about losing that account that I had yeah it had nothing to do with me um you remind me of like what am my therapist always says to me is like you have this way of walking through things with like integrity and Grace and I’m always like yeah everything’s going to be great my therapist like no it’s not going to be great but you’re going to get through it sure and that’s that’s what you remind me when you talk about without drugs or alcohol yeah like it’s not going to make anything better today I’ve already done that cost benefit analysis what is that like specifically like having real good not to say we didn’t have real good friends but intimate authentic relationships built with people treatment who you still have relationships with how do you navigate I see often times when people get out of treatment codependency being a really big issue and obviously you have tight-knit relationships and a lot of those relationships sometimes experience some turbulence and some intensity how do you navigate that with your peer group um real time and one what was your what was your question just is in regards to like you know people come in a lot of your your your group was um obviously they were there for mental health but they coped with substances um some of those people stay sober some of them don’t yeah how do you navigate that that’s one of the more difficult things especially for me in my early recovery and I know people just relationally in recovery right now really struggle with how do I navigate that how do I show up is it too much is it too little how do you do it because I think you do it really well you know I think there was a couple leaders at Peaks um in some senses as far as like Ryan getting into to Dharma and to meditation and things like that but for me doing it like being in the relationship is business and being in business development it’s really I just care about people whether I didn’t really hang out with you that much at Peaks or not still care about you so when I decided to make that that group text when we got out of Peaks and we’ve been talking ever since it’s just harvesting and letting your your brothers and sisters know that you care we’re all in this together right yeah start group texts start some kind of video chats or you know virtual meetings stay in touch with everybody right good example is a a gentleman that we spoke with uh about earlier who wouldn’t he he wasn’t texting or being on any of these you know any of these chats or anything is Josh’s best friend they were attached at the hip he wasn’t responding right and you can only you can only Wonder like why they’re not responding and always kind of like oh he’s probably drunk again he probably doesn’t want to let everybody in the group know but just let know dude you can call us like you don’t have to be embarrassed about freaking relapsing you know how many guys in in our group that relapsed right right yeah it’s okay call us yeah we’re here for support we’re all in this together we’re all love we love each other we don’t want anybody to die or or get in any trouble and just like for the group we we’re blessed for the group right because we were just so tight yeah but um I probably if I had to do it differently it would have been the same if I left and there were six people when I wonder how many of that group um have turned it around in those moments in those periods in those Seasons because they had a platform to feel seen and heard that’s exactly right you know love and yeah that love it’s huge it’s the Comfort right we’re all together and you could joke about anything I mean I I dude what you it took me like years dude like 12 13 years to get to a point where I was like relapse not bad you’re still good like oh my gosh dude like I was talking to a buddy the other day dear friend of mine you do this so well dear friend of mine he’s like I need to make amends I hurt you I did I’ve been friends with this guy 15 years I said buddy all that like what I need you to know is I love you what I need you to know is when you were here and then you were gone it hurt I want you to know you’re part of my family and because it hurt and you were here and you were gone it made us sad yeah and I want you to know when you’re gone I think about you and it breaks my heart whether you were flying hot air balloons smoke I don’t care buddy I love you yeah and that’s all I want to get across to people who are in the struggle today is like we’re here you know and we want to be here with you and you and your group have this real authentic way of telling that story so people can hear it man it’s it’s really cool and you got to be you you also have to be When You’re Sober you’re not really like taking inventory in your blessings right you’re not like oh I’m thankful that I got a parking meter right out front I thought I was going to little things like that you’re not in Denver I’m not yeah exactly um but you have to be you have to be in an acceptance like I accept these blessings or I accept this energy I accept that most people are like this yeah right they don’t want to accept it I don’t what do I deserve help for right you have to get in a mentality where it’s like dude I deserve both cups full and overflowing right I deserve it yeah and um just being open to that CU when you’re when you’re [ ] up all the time and your your brain’s operating you know in a different wavelength or a different uh frequency is um get sober and just realize that you mean something that you’re important take inventory of it and you you deserve it right like all these blessings m take it somebody does love you you don’t deserve a hug well I’m going to give you one right and it’s just at the end of the day I mean they always say right the thing that can fix the world is love once it’s about the perspective too you know discomfort can be a blessing you know a lot of uh individuals they believe treatment and and there’s a misunderstanding that your problem’s going to go away you know when the reality is the problems are there and and if you look at it as an opportunity to grow you know discomfort is an opportunity for growth and what you learn through walking through that is it’s not a matter of of the problems the consequences of not walking through the problems appropriately are different M you know and and that’s what I think that’s that’s where I think a lot of people don’t succeed you know they get out and they expect these problems to be not the same or be able to walk through them or be more comfortable or not as as much discomfort around it and there’s resources like you know text groups and things like that that can help you work through those and get the support you got the peak app yeah you know I fell off that I don’t know how but that was awesome coming out yeah I need a new L you know PMA PMA would respond and like you know Annie was on there it would just be nice to have that you know but then you have new people coming out right and then it’s like all these other people and you’re like I don’t know you and I don’t know what your struggles are I wanted just to be my guys but yeah there’s a lot of cool things that you know I visited Ryan uh twice in Nashville he’s visited Denver twice Josh um Josh and I hung out over this past weekend okay um being brothers and having that support like you know Mr so and so that was our group that’s you know thinking about taking your life or thinking about um how how bad you are drinking again like we’re here for you dude you you know we don’t judge you like Oh no you’re not in our group text anymore cuz you relapsed yeah it’s like that dude what are you doing next what’s your next step you know have you had some experiences with that tight group that you have where that platform to be seen and heard has helped individuals that you know and with in that tribe to kind of reel them back in get them back where they need to be and yeah we found especially the guys I did um one of the guys in our group called me out of nowhere and he’s like you know I’m not doing good you could tell he’s like I tried to kill myself last weekend oh wow I tried to kill myself this week and uh I didn’t I really didn’t know what to do besides you know tell him he’s loved and like give him suggestions and things like that and um we got on a little group I called The Suicide Hotline and I got three of us on the a group chat for him so just to let him know like do we called Suicide Hotline we’re all on the on the line trying to work through this you know so I think it’s a lot of embarrassment and a lot of they think they failed cuz they relapse right mhm we’re here to to help you dude we’re here to walk you through it call me I’ll call this call The Suicide Hotline at 9:30 at night and call you know so the support and just the Brotherhood still yeah we’re here call me at 2 o’cl in the morning amazing to be in a group to where you can have somebody make that call for you because you’re afraid to yeah when you hang up the phone I think we’re all good people right yeah you’re just like without that group where is he yeah if it and hopefully he took some advice and hopefully you know he’s on still on the phone with the suicide hotline but yeah that’s what are you going to do yeah that’s beautiful thing that’s all you got to do is just you know make the calls and you know the same gentleman still not doing what he’s supposed to do MH and I think even with my brother’s death like you have all the opportunities and all the tools to get better and and you know get back into a healthy space or just not take those advice so that like the you know this gentleman he’s not taking the advice hopefully we won’t get a call saying you know he he lost his life but at the end of the day you can know that you tried to help and you we’re trying to throw some good energy in there and letting them know you’re a brother and it’s okay right so it’s that it’s that support and like IOP IOP too I met a couple couple guys outside of my graduating class that we still talking things IOP is huge yeah even if you don’t think you need to go I don’t know I found you know Julie came and now she my tattoo art like it’s just crazy right life happens quick out there it’s to have a group to bounce it off you know yeah and it’s uh overcoming grief you know and Recovery you know how do you do that I had the opportunity I mean I I got to go out to lunch with you and your family and your mom and your dad unfortunately it was on the precipice I’m just horrific we got to break bread you got a beautiful family dude your pops your mom got wonderful energy I can see where it comes from sure what has it been like showing up is like um Adam in recovery in a setting where it was you these things need to be grieved and talked about how was how was that different for you maybe than in the past as far as uh bringing tools to yeah um my parents went through it so much with my brother so they’re kind of kind of knew what what it was and my parents initially didn’t think I had a problem they’re like why are you going to peakes like TSA just you know doing these things but um navigating it right now it’s been tough cuz I didn’t get to process my divorce yet and then my brother dies yeah and all these other little things are happening so I didn’t get a chance to really grief to grieve cuz when my parents were here it happened they were here for a month and a half trying to get his stuff out arrange funeral stuff like all that good stuff um um we never had a time we it was all good cuz I had my family in the room right we’re all supporting each other we just lost he’s lost your son I lost my brother we’re in this this bubble of love you know we haven’t hit The Grieving cycle my mom didn’t even cry yet um so it was more support then than there is now cuz my parents are gone and they’re back in Hawaii where it’s now I’m starting to realize like oh I’m divorced you know it’s it’s in there you try to block it but like I’m divorced and my brother’s no longer here think about it all day all day every day and I’ll I’ll even talk to him I’ll walk around the house like a weirdo and just have conversation with him right yeah because there’s a few times he showed up in my dreams and um he he doesn’t know he’s he’s gone yet he’s kind of like trapped in that kind of like that world of samsar or like whatever wherever he’s at um but The Grieving cycle has been anger it’s been resentment it’s been tears it’s been denial it’s been all of all of the seven grief Cycles so right now my you know we’re all dealing with it different right my mom can’t cry my dad’s pissed off I’m you know in between acceptance and and anger and denial but um how how I’m doing it is like it goes back to like just being with your with your pure group being with sober people doing a practice for yourself whether it’s get out of the house go to the gym check out Dharma I don’t know you might think it’s weird yeah you know there it might work for you I never thought I was going to go meditate like what the [ ] meditate You’ en forced an opportunity to where you have to use your coping mechanism you have to use them now I mean two probably people that knew you the best MH you know and you the closest to out here or are now not part of your life anymore I mean your ex-wife is to an extent but your brother’s not here and your ex-wife isn’t living under your roof that’s a support system no matter what’s going on with that family system even if it’s um you know contentious because of use and so forth but that there’s still Comfort there there’s security there you know and to have in a short amount of time both those taken away and then now your parents gone back to Hawaii you know that it sounds like now we’re sitting with the grief we’re not going out to eat every night we’re not having a good time not distracting anymore I saw myself at those tables with that pizza too man you guys’ pizza game is so it’s down you know you know the spot come down man and I really appreciate you bringing that up because it’s it just is in process sometimes M um and there’s anger and there’s stages and we’re moving through it but one thing that I just wanted to share with you because I got to be a part of at least some of the energy was that when we got to sit down and have lunch you were a beacon of light a beacon of light and if you were not a beacon of light at that table and in that Arena that experience for everybody involved would have been diabolically different you didn’t become a beacon of light overnight and I don’t know if you see yourself in that setting that way but that’s what I experience and you’re an anchor and that’s how I think family systems and addition to a multitude of other things walk through grief authentically and I’m just grateful that they have you today man that your recovery shows up where your feet are one day at a time it’s not pretty it’s not easy but man it looks beautiful on you thank you really it’s just so worth it man you owe it to yourself you know yeah well he came back after that lunch and and one of the things he remarked was I think you didn’t even know you’re walking into that at the time took me to McDonald’s yeah and he said and and he and and the bright light of that experience was how you carried yourself through it you know um even just at lunch you know and and I know Chris you know remarked about how impressed he was and and he was it was emotional for him he came back and was and was pretty emotional about the whole experience but um remarking how you how you how you were carrying yourself even through that lunch in spite of what had just happened and and for me I’m like man he he still at lunch with you you know still he didn’t I mean that’s just moving life happens you know life happens and and and I have to think that you had a choice you could either cancel that that lunch with Chris or you could keep that lunch in and and um benefit from that connection right in that moment I have to think it was you know it’s it’s amazing what’s greater than ourselves right yeah and and you needed that connection in that moment um which is why you didn’t cancel that Lun I even hit you up thinking there’s no way and you’re like dude I would absolutely love to just and you had to come pick me up in the Porsche though that was yeah that thing was like half electric half it was the the full electric make I forget what it was called take the take on take yeah it’s a sharp little car it was awesome and everywhere Adam takes you anywhere he takes you whether it’s coffee yeah outside of The Bagel Deli that iite him he knows the owner everywhere you go hey it’s Rick hey it’s my buddy Chris P covery knows the owner everywhere knows how the boxes are made why the food was prepared the whole story yeah it’s incredible man like you’re a community’s member member he’s a people person it’s a beautiful thing man for sure man I mean that’s your talent yeah you know and that’s why you’re the one that started that text group that’s why I mean that’s your talent man yeah people people are like oh thanks for texting you forgot about this right you’re like that is your Dharma you just got to get the Dharma yeah that’s your Dharma absolutely to be that person you know yeah I’m I’m in a a spot where it’s most challenging time in my life you know what I really struggle with is now that my brother’s gone you know and my mom and dad pass I’m not going to have like an immediate person in my family like right I don’t have my brother like he’s my I won’t have him for the rest of my life I’ll just have you know just friends and close family and things like that um which sucks but then a big thing for me was like I’ve always owned houses so when I had to give Tosh the house I had to move into like a condo like a a loft or something like that I just felt like walking in like I’m so um my self-confidence went down like I’m I’m I live in houses I buy houses I’m living in a condo and I’m I’m still struggling with it now just like selfworth and some of the things that I lost my wife or I failed in this way um are ruminating right and it’s normal to to have those feelings um but you’re talking about like things like that make you happy is like I bought this house and I was so excited my my new house but it’s like I’m I was excited to have it and I was like cool for like a week yeah right I’m like I’m blessed to have it I mean it’s freaking amazing yeah but what’s what’s really keeping you satisfied and for me it’s just like it’s just like a ton of self-care like I’ll go whatever I’ll go get my nails done one day I’m just like whatever dude go treat yourself to something whatever it is right I’m going to go to a float tank tomorrow um but just self-care man M yeah is is the biggest one for me going through all the challenges like I said I can go drink my face off right now I can leave here and just be like they don’t know nothing they didn’t know I’m hammered talking to him I got my own house exactly yeah stuff syndrome right just some of the challenges I guess long resarch some of the challenges that I’ve I’ve had right are very spaced out these one has just been like back to back to back to back so it’s hard for me to to digest and process it but every time I think about it like I wouldn’t be able to digest and process if I was [ ] up yeah no way I think a part of is knowing that some of these things we bring into our life like the new house it’s going to be shiny temporarily yeah and I think knowing that is is part of being able to walk through it when after that first couple weeks it’s like okay now it’s a new house you know decorated done my thing knowing that’s coming and being aware of that you know so that you can have those self-care you know resources and um because really me for me the things I get the most out of now you know isn’t the stuff isn’t the house isn’t all this it’s the relationships the connections nature man nature you know I know I’ve seen your pictures man you’re going all over you know we finally got our conversion van back after we hit nek so it’s it was in a shop for six months man big old elk yeah big and um we were heading out to tell your ride to go ahead and do some wedding planning and we’re in Blue Blue Mesa and these three elk just come coming down the hill and if you know Blue Mesa you can’t go right or left otherwise you go to the water MH because it’s all bridges yeah so all I could do is just hit on the brakes and and and it was like slow motion we hit that thing and and we were fortunately we were all right we were great we actually limped it into a Walmart parking lot and camped out in a Walmart parking lot for three days oh no way oh yeah stayed and uh we stayed we got it done we didn’t turn around come back we were intentional we stayed and did what we had to do and uh but we just got it back so so yeah I’m finding and and just like you are you know he pulls up you know BMW with the with the big cargo thing on top and I’m like man he he looks like he’s going to the mountains you know looks like looks like he’s going into nature I mean just driving by you’re like that guy lives in nature or operates in nature functions well in nature at least has some Cruel Intentions to being that’s important like the nature thing is huge man for selfcare I don’t know I’m kind of like on different kind kind of looking at Pharmaceuticals and like judging different companies and like who’s going to be picking up like you know some of these plant-based medicines that we’re looking at right it’s going to it’s going to happen right yeah and um you know just looking at like what I’ve taken in the past what I’ve taken at Peaks what I don’t what I don’t take what I take now I’m just really interested in to see what’s going to happen as far as um you know psilocybin comes yeah yeah I think that’s tremendous and for me um I like a lot of of the the therapy that comes along with it and tell you the truth like being you know being on Prozac for so long there’s there’s a couple days I didn’t take it and I just micro doed a little bit right I that did more wonders than any Prozac or any you name it right and it’s just it’s going to be huge for for patients coming into Peaks or whatever the case may be what do you think like 10 years from now we’re going to I think I think early an off man we got the 50th annual winter Symposium coming up at the end of the month we’re putting on a huge huge or we are putting on the talk for the psilocybian plant-based Consortium they’re coming on we have the who’s who I mean you should come and check it out like it’s it’s here we have resources in community it’s ready to go Peaks is not licensed or not a clinic yet for sure because we have such tremendous resources within the community but it’s alive and well man yeah and um I think with reverence um it can change lives and specifically in a lot of people that have stuck PTSD trauma whatever it might be getting people up and over that edge to see what’s on the other side in a clear and safe way I think is really really cool and really important you know you reminded me of something when you were just talking something that Bobby reminded me of as well is is you’re when you’re walking through this grieving process and a lot of like family systems issues right brother’s gone you said potentially my parents are going to be gone um I’ve had a lot of those issues and a lot of disconnection in my family system throughout the years I can’t tell you how many times bobb’s called me whether was my dad died in August of 23 yeah or my brother wouldn’t talk to me in 2020 or my little brother was doing the thing back you know 6 months ago went talk and Bobby would always call me and say like I just I know you’re going through a lot man and I just want you to know that like I’m your family you know and he’s that more times than I can count and so as you said that and it is scary to think well my mom my dad we’re family man yeah of course you just think like you’re going to spend all the rest of your life with your brother you turn 50 you know it’s like yeah you know yeah it’s something to wrap your head around but it’s the grief cycle right and it’s never in the same or the seven steps are in the same order right they’re all over the place and it could be it could vary from day to day too and it cool if you could plan it that way though like yeah it it has it has been uh it’s been challenging but like I’m proud of myself like you talk about courageousness to get into Peaks that’s a dude you walked into Peaks you worked into a rehabilitation center to fix yourself MH right yeah but um I’m just I just can’t talk enough about Peaks I always remember the freaking bathtubs cuz they’re they were awesome and Andy would put like EPs and salts in there we turn the lights off and be like but just like the experience I have and the tools that I brought out of that into my life today are invaluable right I’m a different person maybe I was the same person but because I was intoxicated all the time I didn’t know like this is the authentic me and this is the caring loving kind this is the energy I want to portray rather than getting drunk and getting you know M getting um aggressive or something like that right kind of I’m cool you want to steal my parking spot go right ahead I’ll get another one right I actually I did this at Peaks uh when I got out of Peaks I was I was driving down Cherry Creek and there was this like this guy with a huge truck I think he had Trump Flags I don’t know what it was but I cut him off real bad and he was like he was going berserk right knocking on his window and I was just like sorry sorry it was my fault and sure enough we get we’re in the same uh same light and this the next one turns turns green so we’re getting up to it it turns red so I’m next to him perfect right yeah and I said and he’s like what and I’m like roll your window down he rolled his window down he’s like what [ __ ] and I said I’m sorry for cutting you off he’s like he didn’t even know what to do dude he was like what remember when you told I’m like this is it’s a dick move man I cut you off and I just want to let you know I’m sorry right and just just have a little things like that in life right well the reality is chances are you cutting him off is not what that was the straw that yeah exactly he just he just left his work getting fired or something you relationship issues any you that was just part of his day part of your day like for me I’m just so chill now if something happens had nothing to do with you yeah had nothing to do with you you know it just happened to come out that way yeah for sure and I bet he was like what did you say and you’re like I’m sorry I said I’m sorry oh shoot yeah me too man right oh my I remember when you told me that I’m like dude that’s cool kind I do all the time just little things like why why get your blood pressure and your your nervous system up for somebody cutting you off or taking your just not worth it to me I always tell my wife I’m like you don’t have to look at the person when they pass you she’s always like I know like what are you what is that going to do what you I’m like stop it I need him to know how I feel I need him to know that I’m pissed yeah off we’ve been playing this game too long are you sure you’re not the only one playing the game yeah well it’s been a just uh man a great conversation today some great connection I in in in parting maybe if there’s anything you’d like to share to your brother or your sister who’s sitting on the edge of that phone and sitting on the edge of that courageous decision and you maybe something to say to them with respect to your experience and leave us with that today maybe yeah I think um with suicide it’s it’s hard to understand I’ve never experienced that even with with you know friends and family in my life um for me we did the best we could for him and if you’re calling into different rehabs and different facilities if you’re doing all the things and you’re giving them all the tools and resources and they don’t want to take it or they just have no interest in going to meetings or something like that it’s you can try as much as you possibly can but if the other person doesn’t want it there’s nothing you possibly can do right pay for his car you can help him monetarily you can help them enable them in some ways but at the end of the day you know if they don’t want to be if they’re struggling that bad and going through all these different traumas that they won’t you know they won’t bring out in their lives things can happen like that it’s just a reality right some people don’t want to get better even coming in to Peaks right yeah maybe they’re like forced to go there and they’re like I don’t want to be here you know somebody’s going to save their marriage and doesn’t want to be there but um you have to really want to do it right you’re either going to die out on the street or you’re going to die you know in your house like my brother did my parents had to find them yeah I I love what you said there because there’s this this level where I help and then it’s up to something greater what are you going to do it’s up to something greater and that’s we go up to the line and we serve all the way to the line and then the rest is up to something greater you know a different kind of energy that I’m hopeful to connect with and it goes right back to mental health right yeah every time we didn’t know my brother was that hurting mentally yeah you just never know yeah same people that are smiling laughing that deep down inside don’t like their lives or anybody else you know what I mean yeah yeah it’s a big front it’s always a great reminder too to have you in here it’s just like how far and I’ve said it before I’m Tik toks like you’re a great reminder Adam jger and how far like a handshake a hug smile smile a good day and I’m I’m sorry you know the impact you’re having on this world specifically you know two guys have been doing this a long time in this room is is this really really cool man and thank you for coming down to Colorado Springs finally got your ass down here man finally and uh and I get to see Bobby I know Bobby on the show he sent me uh and he’s I’ve I’ve had I’ve had a couple offers in the past and and this isn’t really my thing I’m not as uh eloquent as Chris is when it comes to these podcasts but when he put in the text he said it’s going to be you me and jger and I was like done let’s do it because you have brought me you know I could be having the worst especially when you were at Peaks I could be having the worst day or just walked away from a a a a um um a situation that wasn’t very comfortable or caused me some discomfort and I could see you walking from the RV garage across and I’d be like man it just change it just changed your smile your energy you know I remember I think it was you that was uh uh during the coffee talk that said you just wish everybody looked at this like this this experience that Peaks as an opportunity and not a burden or a barrier or something to carry you know um I think you went as far as to say you got a in-house chef and you got yoga and you got this and your name it off and I was like yeah it does sound good can I do 30 days here honestly God I think it would Retreat all the time just like retreat honestly God it was like a a mental health Retreat for me and you said that I I I wish they thought that too you know but that’s not the reality of it but that’s why you are successful today and that’s why you’re walking through these periods of grief and using the coping mechanisms and you’re not spiraling and heading back in Peaks again you know yeah living living in the present right it’s so hard it’s it’s so hard right even thinking in this interview I’m like oh what do I have to do tonight I have to get the kids like I know right you’re spacing right you’re you’re going out um but it’s I don’t know it’s just such a great opportunity to to have you guys and have Peaks and have that opportunity your friendship all the family that I have um Being Sober yeah being want to do good in life yeah want to go help people it’s that energy you say your walk out you you’re attracted to people that you want to be with and that energy and it’s all make it like that and we’re and we’re peers now and we’re friends you know this is that’s one of the greatest uh Joys that I get to see coming out of what we do is that you know when you’re and and I think me and Chris we we do a really good job when the client’s there to make them feel like family and make us feel like you know we’re peers we walked through the same thing that you walked through with you there and um but when you get out you know furthering and continuing those relationships are pretty important and every time not even every success story but when somebody goes through Peaks as long as they want to continue to stay connected we get our fellowship grows you know our fellowship continues to grow as Peaks continues to for sure um you know receive and so and that’s that to me is one of the greatest blessings of this industry for me and and and of what we do is we get to sit down with Anatomy eger here yeah you know that we wouldn’t have been able to sit down before and any other profession for me I probably wouldn’t have I’m more of an introvert than I’m an extrovert believe it or not and uh probably hear the volume of my voice and things like that but um but this has been a great opportunity for me um and and it wouldn’t happen probably without you being here and for sure without Chris inviting me so thank you both really enjoyed this yeah appreciate you guys a lot yeah to all of our viewers out there we should do this more often man I used to a lot of alumni it’s just it’s really nice to have you man in this space um we’re better together today remember that don’t be good be great peace [Music]

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Episode 138More Than a Game: Mark Kelbel on Mentorship and Fearless GolfWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/uVrPSpmgyfkListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Chris Burns brings Nik Darrah back to the show to welcome our special guest, Mark Kelbel! Mark is the former golf pro at the Broadmoor golf course and the founder and chairman of Fearless Golf. Fearless Golf allows Mark to open doors and present opportunities to teens and young adults to help foster healthy and successful transitions into adulthood. From hearing moments in Marks’s story that lead him in this direction to the profound impact these opportunities have for young people, this conversation will surely captivate and educate everyone on a rarely acknowledged topic. For further information on Mark and Fearless Golf or to find donation opportunities, check out Newhorizonsfoundation.com.

Talking Points1. Introduction to the show 2. Nik’s connection to Mark 3. Authenticity is key 4. Mark’s story 5. The power of responsibility 6. Opening communities to everyone 7. Benefits to golfing 8. Isolation is a killer 9. The importance of trust 10. Looking at child-adult relationships 11. Fear of judgment 12. Family in Recovery 13. Answering your calling 14. Ripples in life 15. Reaching Mike 16. Newhorizonsfoundation.com for donations 17. Final thoughts Quotes

“Kids especially need an advocate, they need somebody in their corner to cheer them on. And I tell kids, look if you dont have a mentor, find one because you gotta have a cheerleader.” – Mark Kelbel, Founder of Fearless Golf

Episode Transcripts

Episode -138- Transcriptskids especially need an advocate they need somebody in their corner to cheer them on and I tell kids look if you don’t have a mentor find one um because you got to have a cheerleader I want to give people a reason to shave to change their clothes to get a shower to meet people somewhere to have a cup of coffee to to go putt so important that these kids feel welcome in an environment they would not normally even think about going the greatest form of motivation is encouragement yeah [Music] [Applause] [Music] hey everybody and welcome to another amazing exciting and of course enthusiastic episode of Finding Peaks Yours Truly president and founder Chris Burns humbled and honored to be here today with Mark kellbell founder chairman of fearless golf also prior uh pro at the Broadmore this guy on a good day he just told me he’s a scratch golfer on a good day not today because it’s snowing outside also joined by my co-host good friend and one of my most amazing friends and uh humans in the world Nicholas are our Outreach director let’s go welcome thank you thank thank you Chris so good to have you guys I wanted to kind of start out I don’t want to get into like my little Q&A we just spent a good amount of time connecting I want Nick to talk about his connection with you because it goes this goes back five years yeah at least you know we’re talking about the nonprofit the place we’re talking about about mountain springs we’re talking about Broadmore we’re talking about Peaks recovery this has been an evolutionary relationship and I’m so grateful um that Nick introduced me to you but uh want to give him the opportunity to kind of uh go through that a little bit sure yeah absolutely I mean it’s so I feel so blessed and fortunate honestly to to have this friendship in our life right like uh it all started at the place which is a youth homeless shelter in Colorado Springs and you actually reached out I believe with Karen and we’re able to get us going over there so we took a group by I think it was like five or six of the youth over who had never played golf in their life never thought they could play golf in their life and learned how to do it in a day and just the confidence and self-esteem you see growth in that moment right of like I can do something different I can show up different it was so impactful for me right and then getting to know you some throughout that process too I could feel this like genuine connection right this like genuine person who really just is there and wants to help people and show up and that was really what I was like okay this is the dude he’s super cool it’s going to be great and so I’ve really TR tried to make sure that we stay in contact and just um work together as much as we can you know you’re able and willing to come and do a free group when I was at Mountain Springs recovery for our clients which is phenomenal and it just really I think speaks to your heart and your passion well thank you Nick and certainly I felt the same way you know Nick and I had a quick uh connection we were able to relate and I could tell that he cared about the same things that I cared about about helping people and how to go about it and uh and his willingness to think out of the box with with the golf too you know Nick was not very familiar with golf but he gave it a shot I’ve always liked his style I’ve always liked the way Nick treated people I always like the way he treated me yeah and so I wanted to be around him just as a friend but I could he was an exceptional professional for these kids and and and that’s been my whole goal is I’m just trying to lighten the load of these kids to act as a resource that to cover their flanks to to take some burden off their mind that hey there are people out there that are willing to help me um in the smallest of ways but you know as as those kind of snowballed um to get them a little confidence and to get them around the right people and and so we had we had that in common and it just worked didn’t it Nick so it did it’s been a blessing yeah that’s a really I appreciate you guys sharing that just wanted to be able to touch on that cuz there there’s some history and um I think it’s cool to come into this place and I think you guys both speak to it so clearly uh but what I think you both identify in each other is like this authenticity yes in this you know the last hour or 45 minutes I’ve had to sit with you Mark it’s like that’s why I can sit here saturate and connect in conversation because you present authentically and when you’re talking about Youth and kids and children that are in the the most crucial stages of their life I.E the developmental stages of their life that’s what they need is someone authentic consistent and compassionate and that’s something that I’ve noticed with you just since the opportunity we’ve had to meet is like you just show up and hold that space it’s their Direction and you’re just walking with them yeah that’s really really cool how did you come to a point in your life what was it that allowed you to sit with people like that be so passionate caring and connect with these individuals well as I shared earlier I have a a personal connection because my my son has addiction issues and I could see what a wonderful human being he was but he had things that he had to deal with that um we’re not going to get solved with screaming and hollering or you know or telling somebody to get their you know what together and stuff it was not a matter of of of brow beating it was okay let’s let’s let’s do whatever we can do to get you in a better head space a better a better self-image and stuff and so I’ve always I’ve had a soft spot for that I’ve always been one of these people that I never wanted to be the wet blanket you know somebody that was that was going to say no all the time where I wouldn’t even consider going to somebody you know can you help me with this no can you can you can you give me a ride no I I I’ve always wanted to be that person that would find a way and I found that there was a there was a professional at um at Cherokee Ridge named Todd Laxon and Todd is now the head pro at uh Country Club Colorado and when I needed help with the charity when I needed help with the leadership academy that I do out of the Broadmore anything he never said no he always said we’ll figure it out just let me know when I I might have to tweak the date but we’ll figure it out and and and to me he served as a as a absolute Beacon to the community because that was a needed resource for me I needed access to golf here and I couldn’t get it otherwise because the Broadmore is a private Place kissing camels is a private place flying horse is private Country Club of Colorado is private you know you have to you have to be a member or a guest to walk on grounds and and out there I needed a a place to take kids that didn’t have those didn’t have access right that could feel welcome that I could I I didn’t feel bad either bringing them and so that was um I just want that was what I wanted to pursue a goodness a a sort of a um an effort I wanted to start an effort to as I say lighten the load for these kids and really that’s how we got started too and that’s a beautiful thing and something I didn’t even you know write down as I was kind of putting the show together was like often times these places to your point are a bit more affluent we don’t see ourselves inside of those world that’s not for me there’s a developmental like life skill and um posture if you will that comes as a result of walking into those places ordering some chicken wings or whatever it might be it’s like I can be here and you get to inform that through your charity to say no we get to be here and it’s a level of confidence I think that you’re allowing or connecting with these individuals that’s got to be profound and and it was it was fun I think Nick would attest even at the range you’d give people that you were trying to do a little bit of responsibility even within our group y hey can you take these range balls down to that person there can you help them a little bit you know how to do it a little bit easier than that person can you just show them how to make them motion a littleit give him a little bit more Buy in hey can you go back to the golf shop tell them we need a few more golf balls here’s a few bucks to pay for stuff like that where they became more sort of they they were a little bit more Hands-On Nick they fell a little bit more apart of things yeah and and then and then you know and then Nick was always there to cover flanks you know and all I needed from Nick is a nod he knew we knew when we were on the same page absolutely just a look absolutely and I think it’s so true seeing that spark in these youth who have only experienced a lot of hardship in their life right like they might have been experiencing homelessness since a young age like 9 years old and never in their lives could even imagine stepping foot into the Broadmore and not getting looks not getting people being like why are you here what’s going on right and to see that shift in them even in the very first session of being there is just so impactful and so beautiful to me it’s like something I wouldn’t even think of right you think it’s like Golf and we’re learning and it’s it’s going to be fun but like just that moment could change their whole trajectory their whole life you yeah and that’s what you know um Karen henchel the old head of education for um the place used to say is she said it’s so important that these kids feel welcome in an environment they would not normally even think about going to and so that as we used to talk Nick and I we want them to think out of the box and to think okay I can do this um you you were talking about Jiu-Jitsu I’m sure at some point it was like I don’t do jiujitsu that’s for you know somebody else well you started it and now you’re you’re fully you’re fully bought in and and it’s part of your life now and so we’re just it’s it’s just amazing to me um I’ve been all over the world doing stuff with golf and it’s it never ceases to amaze me the Allure that it has for people once they’re in that in once they’re there MH either on the tea on the pting green on the course yeah whatever yeah you’re it you guys speak to it so clearly and it’s interesting with golf I think when probably you started playing we didn’t know what we know now about mental health with respect to Sunshine and the Earth and movement and connection you brought up a stat to me before the show that I was enthralled with that lifetime golfers live 40% longer than the average individual what yeah how cool my gosh yeah it’s amazing and that and that has a lot to do with like if if you and I said okay uh Nick and couver and and uh Chris and I are we’re going to meet at Garden of the Gods we’re going to take an hourong hike we probably get about 8,500 steps in if you walk 18 holes you get about 18,000 steps in you know you see how much more plus it’s it’s the it’s the obligation to socialize to be around people to that connection it makes you feel welcome it’s it’s a uh it’s an endearing thing and it’s also your in nature as you said I always tell people the best thing about golf is the environment you’re Out Among the trees the water the wind the the grass the birds you know you and and the beautiful thing about where we live in Colorado Springs is truthfully all of our golf courses act as much of a wildlife refuge as they do a golf course I mean at the Broadmore you could see a bear at any minute you can see coyotes you could see deer you won’t see elk there but you will at the Academy yeah you know and you will let and I don’t you know and so it’s just such a welcoming beautiful place and it’s uh to me that’s the best thing about it like I always tell people I got the the best office in the world because I’m outside among among all this beauty and um it’s I just think it’s good for people as I say I don’t I want to give people a reason to shave to change their clothes to get a shower to meet people somewhere to have a cup of coffee to to go putt to go hit a few balls to go play nine holes to go ride around in a golf cart with somebody yeah it it’s it’s that reason to connect and um to me it’s it’s more people are going to die from loneliness yeah than anything else and I and I see it with our our kids too the people that we all work with is isolation is a killer y yeah once a person starts to isolate it’s a sheer fire indication that they’re not doing so well and that goes right through life and uh and so it was it’s just a thing that I’ve seen work MH and I believe in it enough to get my nose dirty as you all know nobody nothing changes till somebody’s willing to get their nose dirty that’s right and you got to be willing to get in the weeds a little bit and if you are then things can change but it isn’t going to do it by you know by holding everybody in an arms length sometimes you got to have um conversations with people that peel off a couple of appropriate layers of each other’s life to see what really makes them tick you know who do you want to call if you hear a funny joke who do you want to call if you’re proud of yourself who do you want to you know what who’s your biggest disappointment in life who’s your biggest Joy who do you you know who where’s your happy place you know what was what was the thing you did that makes you the most proud of yourself things like that and uh I have always seen that kids that will snowball and it can be anybody but there’s usually somebody in everybody’s life that they would want to call yeah and we used to talk about that member in our groups over at the around the big table table yep might be a grandparent might be a might be a brother you know I I I think back on the some of the twins we had over there that one was basically taking care of the other and with more severe issues and you know you think okay well what a blessing man this connection yeah and and to me those are those are everything in life you know and yeah and and we’re going to have it now Nick and I have it you know cver and I are going to have it now but it’s those people that you just you’re you’re just somebody when I see you come down the street I can’t help but smile and say man I can’t wait to say hi to this dude give me a second will you yeah it’s so true and that was the same way with even the kids at the place you know rough kids yeah rough I mean if we were walking down one side of the street and we saw him coming this way we might say let’s go across the street once you get to know him man these guys are sweet kid you know I remember one time I was with my son who was I said has had issues and we saw him and I yelled at him and uh and uh we went around the corner and John’s like your dad Dad I’m like I I know him it’s cool yeah you know and I got out and I gave him a big hug but to look at them you’d think these are rough kids man and uh but they were smiles and you know I remember the a a young man over there he didn’t want anything to do with us he didn’t want to talk to me he didn’t want to have he thought golf was stupid he just thought the whole exercise was a waste of time well and he wouldn’t look me in the eye you know and I always tell people I know I got you when you can eye contact because that indicates a certain level of interest and anyway he finally started look at me in the eye by the time it was over with he was hugs you know he got an eight iron on the face he was able to make a 12T putt he was a coordinated kid um he didn’t know it MH he’d never experienced that and he was one of those kids I saw in that street with my son yeah and who I would have thought you know a month before knowing him I would have thought no I’m not pulling over for that crew yeah but after I knew him like you get to see okay all of those they just need help yeah they need their flanks covered they need encouragement you know and that’s the I’m still a firm believer guys and the the greatest form of motivation is encouragement yeah and just to touch on that too that was probably one of the first moments when I was like okay I can trust this person right is we come in it’s like our first session in Fearless Golf and like you mentioned the clients really struggled with trust and that often times shows up as like maybe being a little disrespectful or not really showing up in the way that they should be right and to see a client not really participate and instead of going on and like getting at them or having me get at them you just sat with them and talk to them and it I was like this is it this is the moment this is a thing yeah this is it yeah well thank you Nick and that was it’s always after as you guys know you know I want to lose the battle win the war yeah so if it takes me a little longer to to connect um it’s what you got to do and I don’t want to okay you’re here because you’re program set said you needed X hours of outside activity or something I want I want them to be there and I want them to know hey look even if I don’t really like golf I get to go see Mark and maybe Mark can help me with something I get to spend an hour with him an hour and a half and I get to at least talk to somebody that I know has my back I know we’ll make a phone call for me I know we’ll write a letter for me I know we’ll we’ll go have coffee with me I know he’ll get you know the right people in my life if I’m interested in a certain profession or something like that you know who’ll take the time you know I to me it’s always look Chris you you made me feel valued because you give me your time that to me that’s that’s how you make people feel valued absolutely absolutely it’s a it’s a huge thing and you’re you’re reminding me of how important I mean the most important child adult relationships are they’ll say often times the influence the 75% of the influence will come from outside of the home so what type of adults are we putting around our children to inform that today and it’s such a special thing because I can remember growing up being pretty disconnected within the family system and there were certain individuals that if they weren’t there even though I put puted my way through my developmental years if they weren’t there I wouldn’t be sitting with you today and they’re really really special to me and so I love the way that you’re able to show up and inform potentially well quite frankly for a lot of them a different view on a child adult relationship because my view growing up was like you can’t trust they’re untrustworthy they’ll hurt you until Isaiah the youth pastor came in and the soccer coach came in and the wrestling coach and they’re like Chris I care about you yeah it’s the impact you’re having I don’t even know that you’ll fully see because it just has this ripple effect in community that so special yeah and so grounding and so foundational really really cool well we look we appreciate it right Nico it’s just half the stuff is like even when I started this Chris I didn’t prepare is I didn’t know how to prepare I just started you know it’s the old saying like when you start a business start before you’re ready yeah maybe you did that with Peak or you had to figure it out along the way right Y and so but you’re beginning you’re starting to mle because if once it exists you can tweak it you know you can you can say okay this worked this didn’t work we got to go moving more in this direction whatever else but I just have always felt strongly that kids especially need an advocate they need some somebody in their corner to cheer them on and I tell kids look if you don’t have a mentor find one true um because you got to have a cheerleader you got to have somebody you can do it you know you’re you’re better you know and even to the point where if they screw up you can say look you’re better than this you know you know you know let’s let’s what do we got to do is straighten this out but the kids tell you one of the things they’ll they’ll I’ve you know they’re they’re so afraid of being judged yeah okay and quite frankly I share that with them I think the world is full of judgment condem nation and sarcasm when they hear a sincere ear um they need it like they need air they need to know they’re heard they need to know somebody actually can relate you know and I don’t have the answers a lot times but I’ll sit there and listen to them and say well let’s try to figure you know let’s let’s at least try to okay who does um and this includes my experience with my own son you know who I’m like okay who who do you who who makes you feel goodh I love what you’re saying there because we we have a dad right now in the studio with a son who’s in treatment and suffice it to say and I I talk about this all the time and it’s tough I’m a dad yeah is to say that like you know we we can conceptualize a basketball court and who we need court side is the community yeah and the relatable Community the friends the connections the resources in Family actually can be up in the 200 section like we still need to hear you yeah yeah but just enough cuz I actually need to I need hear the coaching on the sideline by my people the community that’s informing it and I it’s got to be difficult because I have a eight nyear old and there’s no community in for like I’m the guy yeah yeah you know I I am every resource for those kids and it feels kind of good yeah and there’s going to be a day where I have to let go a little bit and I just want to honor that with you right now is not only in the work you do with young people but with your own son it’s it’s very very valuable to disconnect in order to reconnect and a really really formidable and integrous way and I just I just want to affirm you for that well it’s a tough thing look you uh thank you and and you do what you can right it’s just that you love your kids you take on a truck for your kids you know and and and so um Nick has this with his mom yeah you know what I mean he knows his mom would take on a truck for him we’ve had enough conversations yeah um Chris knows too yeah yeah yeah yeah and and so that stuff is just I always wanted my son to know hey look um it the problem with the to me the family like my wife is a wonderful person but she had gone through a serious bout of colon cancer in chemo you know and I was trying to juggle you know I was down at Memorial four or five days a week John was an absolute mess yeah he just could not get his you know what together no matter how much logic I tried to use to say hey I need you to get your stuff together because I’m going through a very difficult time with your he just couldn’t not because he was a rotten person MH he just was he just couldn’t do it you know he was not there and so I you know what happens is is I think sometimes family has gone through so much yeah with people with those issues that they’re like I need some space man I’m going to send you to treatment because I can’t I need a break from all of this craziness you know I can’t take another call from the school I can’t can’t take another call from okay you were you had to go to emergency for something you know that type type of stuff where where every time I see you go out the door you know there were times with with my son he’d go around the refrigerator I’d think what’s he doing yeah you know that constant level and and he is a twin oh wow and he has an older sister and his twin is Premed at CU and just one of these you know it’s a girl and that’s how my brothers work yeah go this is great here you know but I can remember back in those days I remember my his twin would look at me and read my face for my stress level like Dad are you okay cuz and I’m convinced when in families when dad’s needs buckles everybody’s Buckle yeah if a dad relinquishes his responsibility his role it it’s not good for anybody in their yes stress becomes you know Financial um you know you don’t want to tipto around a house who you think a dad’s going to throw a plate across the room that’s true at any minute or or or throw dinner on the floor cuz he he was expecting spaghetti and he got you know casserole yeah so you know it’s one of those things and so you you do the best you can it’s not easy um but I I couldn’t live with myself if I was if I didn’t continue to go back and say what can I do I just not one of these people that can stand beside and say I hope you get your stuff together good luck to you you’re on your own it’s a tremendous thing to be able to provide that resource yeah you know and I think families a lot of times you know when we’re conceptualizing our family and we’re reading the dad to be books you know the pages they don’t get to the spot where it’s like if your son or daughter struggles with a mental health disorder just turn to chapter 2 walk you right through it no it’s like the diaper in the room and the setting and the light and the things and you’re like I got it yeah then this thing happens and you’re like reeling because it wasn’t in the textbooks yeah it wasn’t in the it wasn’t in the youth group it wasn’t in these things it was we conceptualized this and so I think when we get into these moments we do the absolute best we can but I think when family is like you got to go it’s to say I can’t do it I think there’s a lot of authenticity to that because it’s clear to me I’m out of bounds here yeah you know and so I think we go through our own process one of the cool things we do at Peaks that I think is just new connection Ing and um something more in alignment with um parallel recovery which is Lisa Smith’s family program what we do is we walk families through a 4-week curriculum absent of their loved one with the family therapist who actually doesn’t see their loved ones individually they do their individual therapy and we reconnect at the end because families really do have to go through like a grieving process I didn’t expect this it would be crazy to expect this yeah you would too I need to go through a grieving process I need to go through a boundary process I need to go through some identity and purpose like who am I and what am I in this current setting and so I just you know will continue to affirm the fathers that stand up and put one foot in front of the other and mess this thing up one day at a time you know that’s the beauty yeah no and Chris you you speak the truth I mean I like for me you know I had a sports background um and I I wasn’t expecting All State out of my son but I expected to go to games and to you know have all that be a part of it but it was a very shortlived with him because of his issues and uh I I would be lying to you if I thought that was disappointing I missed out on that you know and um and I’ve talked to other dads who’s had had the same same experience you know yeah um but it doesn’t but the hardest thing I think for you for people parents and all that is even loved ones of people in treatment is you got to let people have their own lane yeah yeah and need them where they are yeah and support them in that and and and let them know look you can live a life that I will be very proud of you and very happy for you that doesn’t have to be in this thing that I had already a preconceived notion of the way I wanted your life to go go right and there’s so many things that like honestly guys one of the biggest blessings of my life even through the tragic situation of my son’s illness is is to get involved with with this world with the treatment world with the recovery world with the addiction world with the mental health yeah um world I I have grown so much I have met so many amazing utterly you know beyond you know impressive to Extraordinary People yeah um their ability to care their ability to love their ability to empathize to encourage to to just to be there physically yeah um you know it’s it’s and to figure stuff out I mean are you kidding me you know if you’re involved with somebody with issues with that needs treatment and stuff you got to figure out a ton of stuff how to juggle your your time okay cuz you know you don’t want to be so busy making a living that you don’t have a life right and so it’s how to do that how to manage the finances of it you know um how to how to manage the time how can we get this person and and even how to manage your own people in your own family okay I don’t want family systems yeah yeah you know your mom doesn’t take as well to this so let’s be you know we got to go easy on what we talk to Mom about you know what I mean she doesn’t cuz yeah we got to slow roll this one we got to slow roll this one we don’t want a grenade in there today you know no cuz my wife blessed her heart she has no filter none and so you know she she’ll cut right out and say John what’s the story with
the be a week from this is don’t call him out you know he’s been in the house you know five seconds exactly dinner’s ready an yeah yeah in other words I know you’ve been here 5 Seconds when’s you’re meeting okay you better get going you know yeah exactly yeah I love that it’s it’s really cool to you know out of a lot and this is the story of I think Nick’s recovery and the story of my recovery and I think the story of Life well-lived is Like These really tough crisis-driven intense situations very sad culminate in this opportunity where we sit today it is out of your son’s story and out of your son’s pain that you have found a tremendous amount of passion and now you are doing something that I think in addition to the golf the sport that’s meaningful and passionate to you this human thing that probably wouldn’t have been there otherwise and it’s it’s a really really cool thing that you’ve you’ve made a little bit of that into your ministry if you will well and that’s true I think you’re called to it um because you you develop sensitivities you right Nick I mean it’s you okay I love golf I’m I’m familiar with golf I know golf but now I’m introduced to this world and maybe we can connect these two somehow I I see I see as some some uh synergies here some some helpful aspects of both that maybe we can can help people with and so again though that doesn’t happen unless two things happen one somebody’s willing to get their nose dirty and two is as you meet guys like you guys that are willing to do it with you yeah nobody can do it alone it would be you you’d end up in the corner in the fetal position with your head and your hands because it’s just too much and like even the the people that you come across as much as you want to help them man sometimes you want to push your hair out too and it’s like mhm you need each other to get through those times you know and so it’s uh it but it’s worth it it is cu once you once you get over it like like with Fearless golf my favorite kids are the hard kids yeah the really hard kids right Nick you and I talked about that up at your office it’s true where you’re just because they there you you have the biggest influence on it and I’m after influence I’m not after effect like if you and I see each other and the you know I’m not going to just talk Chris about the speed of the greens and how you hit your seven iron and you know how’s your Florida vacation you know we’re going to talk about some stuff about what we know about each other and how I might be a blessing in your life and how you might be a blessing in mine and Nick and I have that you know true he knows I care about it Y and and I do anything for him because and he knows I never blow him off you know what I mean and like when Nick texts I’m back you know I because I I know like and admire him you know he’s a great human being and I know okay he’s worthy of my my my attention you know he’s he’s proven himself he’s a he when I when Nick and i stuff is going to happen yeah he not just going to he’s he’s not a he’s not a you know he’s never going to blow me off and he’s not going to um never follow through he’s a professional y uh and so you know those things are fun though those things are fun I never knew I never knew about the place I never knew about you know but Lord knows now I do after going through this all with my son you know I know about treatment centers I know about Mental Health I know about you know I know about how you can um you know hold a person for X number of time if they need that time to stay you know stay off the street you know get safe abely be safe yeah that’s it exactly it really just again brings back that like idea of these like Ripples and these connections right and these moments in our lives that we might not even think about and how that can affect so many people and change so many things right like if I look back to years ago I don’t even remember what year it was but when we first met at the place right like how could we have seen this happening right how could I have seen that I would come out with another group of clients at another treatment center and be able to meet your son and talk through it and be able to support you yeah and that I think is just so beautiful and such a cool moment right and then if we go even further like if I wouldn’t have come to treatment I would have met Chris and then would I have been here no right and where would my family be and I think we miss that so often is these small things right in the moment they look like the nothing like it could just be a what ever moment right but how much of an impact those moments can really have on our lives and the lives of thousands of people around us that should was so much hindsight you know right it’s like you know to your point mark is like it it is always the toughest one I want to help I you could ask Cassidy if she was sitting right here she’d be like yeah I’ll be like who did I come home and talk about be like Nick yeah I’m like I’m like there’s this guy and he just won’t yeah he’s like me but he won’t he can’t there’s no way he’s going to make maybe he will I don’t know kicking him out he’s got to go I stayed it was just this thing back and forth and I remember when it was like I see you and you see me and we’re going y I’m like boom he’s a leader Nick’s in charge and We’re Off to the Races but there’s something so special about that and gratifying about going into the trenches it’s not about sunshine and rainbows it’s about getting dirty it’s about getting dirty together and it’s about people seeing that authenticity and that consistency of getting dirty yes yeah and I appreciate what you do in the community what you do for individuals what you do for your family system your son um wanted you to be able to chat with the viewers a little bit before we cut off on how do we find you what are the resources um how do we get a hold of you how do we make donations well um you find me by getting a hold of people like you who say I got his number um I don’t have a website for Fearless golf I should um but I don’t and most of it honestly is because I am a completely technically challenged person you’re not too bad cuz I I found you a little bit you did yeah I found a page that talked about Fearless golf it talked about you being the operational or the chairman or something of that nature and I read it was about it was a section like this and it said Fearless golf so somebody’s got you published somewhere new New Horizons is my liaz there it is yep the New Horizons Foundation and I felt it was important to have a Lia because I wanted to let people know look there’s a process to your donation in other words it just does okay well I gave you I gave you 2500s Mark what’ you do with it you know there’s a process to all that stuff and there’s an accountability and a there’s organization to it and I just felt it was an important thing for for me to have that accountability sake of arguing yeah so if you want to if you’re kind enough to donate um if you’re interested in what we do it’s through the New Horizons Foundation under and we’re a fear Fearless golf is the name of the project that’s where I found it under the New Horizons so we can check it out under New Horizons which I from what I read on there is just a safe kind of nonprofit third party that connects and resources smaller nonprofits to help get the funding and that kind of thing yeah it’s our we have that entity and my partner uh Ty saltzgiver um suggested that I do that back in the day when I formed this and so that’s that’s how we do it and then we’re basically uh entrenched in the Mental Health Community Chris as you know and and Nick and I worked together for years and anything we can do in that that sort of that young adult space that 18 to 22 23 24 with helping them we we always talk about helping them transition to healthy adulthoods I love the addiction space the treatment space I you know I got a soft spot for that work with Nick on that too um I am if you guys called me I’d be happy to form something I just think it’s I want to go where I know that people are being helped and I and I I want to work with great people you know I don’t want to uh don’t want to I don’t want I want to have Buy in from from my partners in other words okay we believe in this too yeah y i I’m I’m so with that you know what I mean like just really being respectful of people’s time yeah and I just uh I’m so grateful that I get to fill my time with people like yourself and Nick I mean we were we were uh voting on a scholarship we’re giving out at the end of the month and we’re reading through these essays and then we’re talking then we’re reading through these and then we’re talking then 45 minutes goes by and we’ve read two essay yeah yeah right you know it’s like I just you like yeah that’s what my life gets to be today and I’m so grateful that today you both were in and I had the opportunity to connect with you it’s it’s just been a wonderful day it was snowing outside I’m like looking behind the podcast we got flurries like it’s good to be alive today it’s been a it’s been an awesome it’s it’s been an honor and a pleasure guys thank you so much thank you all for coming on and uh to all the viewers out there all the people that call us home every Sunday until next time my people peace
[Music] [Applause] [Music]
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Episode 137Breaking Barriers in Addiction and Mental Health: Sarrah Forrest on 50 Years of the Winter SymposiumWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/mZocWt5z7bcListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Chris Burns brings back Nik Darrah, our Community Outreach Specialist, to the show to welcome our very special guest, Sarrah Forrest, Chief Operating Officer of the Winter Symposium! This year marks the amazing achievement of the 50th annual Winter Symposium, offering industry insight, therapeutic advances, and a noncompetitive networking community, along with so much more. From the inception of this event with Dr. Forrest to where it stands today, Sarah Forrest continues to push the needle forward, maintaining an exemptional industry event. With such a momentous celebration on the horizon, Sarah shared the amazing agendas coming to this year’s attendees. For more information on the Winter Symposium, check out Addictionandmentalhealth.org.

Talking Points1. Introduction to Sarah Forrest (0:30) 2. The Winter Symposium, first glance (1:45) 3. Not ‘just a conference’ (4:07) 4. Legacy in Colorado Springs (7:10) 5. The military-focused origines of the Symposium (10:00) 6. The war on drugs; looked at through treatment (12:51) 7. Celebrating 50 Years of the Winter Symposium (16:43) 8. Speaking on quality (19:10) 9. A history of disruption (25:59) 10. Dr. Forrest’s books, legacy, and knowledge (33:37) 11. All things Winter Symposium 2025 (38:10) 12. Addictionandmentalhealth.org (40:20) 13. Final thoguhts (40:40) Quotes

“I think the vision for the Winter Symposium has always been a vision of collaboration and collectivism.”-Sarrah Forrest, COO – Winter Symposium

Episode Transcripts

Episode -137- Transcriptsat the end of all the days of all the hours that are put into working in this space the only important thing is positive outcome for clients I think the vision has always been for the winter Symposium a vision of collaboration and collectivism and I think clinicians are curious you know clinicians want to know okay this is happening so what does it mean how do we implement it where do we go for the resources that we need to feel really confident [Music] hey everybody and welcome to another amazing and exciting episode of Finding Peaks yours truly your host president and founder Christopher Michael burn so grateful to be here today uh with great professionals but even better humans uh my co-host Nicholas Dar here today Nick thanks for joining me yeah absolutely thank you again for having me awes love it awesome and we have the Chief Operating Officer or operations person in front of us for the winter Symposium Sarah so grateful to have you on the show thank you so much for having me this is a wonderful invitation um I’ve seen the podcast and it’s an honor to be here thanks yeah and uh Sarah is doing all things Symposium it is the 50th annual winter Symposium and I was thinking on the way over here I was like is there a conference in the country that’s been going on this long oh in this field the only other one that I might say has the same longevity is maybe the Cape Cod um which many people probably don’t know but Dr Forest helped start that one as well wow so that’s the only one that I’m familiar with um there may be some other small ones um but yeah we’ve we’ve got 50 years in this space so it’s a a privilege and uh a legacy yeah it it really is a legacy I’ve been in the field for 16 years and I remember when somebody first introduced me to the winter Symposium I was out in Arizona I was doing some Gorilla Marketing out here with Parker Valley Hope and Donna Schwarz um I don’t know if you know Donna Schwarz but she used to be the chief uh Chief clinician for the Denver Valley Hope Association and she said you got to come check out the Symposium if you want to hang out in Colorado and um I got a pass from a guy named Duke Rumley and your father uh welcomed me into not only in 2013 as a marketer into the Colorado provider Community which tends to be pretty tight-knit and in 2014 we opened Peaks there maybe wasn’t a human that was more helpful than your dad out in front of us and cheering us along and when you have somebody like out out there doing that in a community that you live in it’s really impactful and empowering to do what we do one day at a time so we as much as we love to support you all we appreciate the support you’ve given us all these years absolutely yeah it’s it’s been amazing to watch you grow and evolve and really be a permanent fixture in Colorado Springs and in the community in Colorado yeah I never knew you know coming to Colorado Springs what a great decision that was going to be you from a just a resource perspective and what the Colorado Springs area needs we came down here because it was beautiful and we thought there was a lot of competition in Denver and the vast majority of the population would send their loved ones give a little space and Grace and it’s turned out to be one of the greatest decisions um and we’ve been able to connect with amazing providers uh like Dr Gary Forest like the winter Symposium like the tremendous amount of resource that honestly you guys do a great job job cultivating here in the community thank you yeah we pride ourselves on that um I think the one thing that I have heard over and over again is we’re really unique because it’s a network building collaborative community and it doesn’t feel as competitive um as some other conferences feel in some other spaces and in other states too um I think the vision has always been for the winter symposium a vision of collaboration and collectivism right because at the end of all the days of all the hours that are put into working in this space the only important thing is positive outcome for clients right and that only happens if people pull their resources share expertise and come from a place of compassion and a real vision for creating a better place for people that are in recovery or who are are suffering um with mental health issues yeah absolutely I think just to add on that as well I so in my role I’ve been to a lot of conferences in my life and I think that is the difference right it’s like not this space fully for uh tech companies and things like that to come in and and be the main fixture there right and I think that’s what makes it so different is I’ve been very fortunate to be able to go to the Symposium for N9 years now I think which is wow I didn’t realize that you had attended that many times you got right F yeah right away right after treatment I was in there thanks to Chris actually um and I’ve always felt that kind of connection this like need for it so that’s why I’m so excited that we are a part of it this year and can really be so involved in that yeah absolutely it’s interesting too you said kind of this collaboration and I come from a when I started my treatment uh Journey as a professional lives in Prescot Arizona and I don’t know if you know anything about Prescot Arizona and actually a lot of people in Colorado and the provider Community they’re not aware of this type of stuff because the cor Colorado provider Community tends to be more integrous in comparison we Champion things like collaboration and integrity and client care and outcomes but it’s not that way everywhere and I think a lot of times people don’t see that or understand that and so when I was in presca Arizona um it was really really difficult from a provider perspective because a lot of people are aren’t interested in collaborating so I show up at this place called the winter Symposium in 2013 and I’m like these people work together all I got to do is get in the club and we’re going to work together I I believed for in in the infancy of my career I was
and going up and down the road and vans and things of that nature and quality of care is abysmal and unfortunately the cost is the humans that we’re talking about protecting so what you guys do I I don’t I don’t even think we can even begin to understand the impact that has because if there’s 13,000 treatment providers in this country I wouldn’t send my family that I hate and I don’t hate any of my family but something that I dislike um to 13,500 of them or 12,500 of them excuse me I would definitely like to acknowledge that that is the legacy of Dr Gary Forest yeah here specifically at least in Colorado Springs yeah and along the Front Range because he came here in the early 70s he was uh attached to Fort Carson and he was doing work in their ALC alcohol and drug treatment program um and prior to that he was working at Walter Reed and he had developed the alcohol and drug treatment program for service members right they were coming back from Vietnam in the late ‘ 60s and there was a need and he was basically tasked with that and it turned into the perfect fit for him professionally but when he came here to Colorado Springs the city was like 50,000 people which is really hard to imagine right so the fact that he decided that this is going to be home and this is where he’s going to build his legacy um you know I think that the outcome is something very collaborative it was a very small town and he was highly qualified and very intentional about what he did um but there wasn’t an organization in this city or along the Front Range who didn’t know the work he was doing and wasn’t impacted or influenced at that time by the work that he did um so he worked at Valley hope he worked with them on their board um he had done work with Cedar Springs Hospital a lot of organizations that if if you look at some of the older brochures they they don’t ex anymore um but he was certainly integral in getting those programs going and giving them sort of the professional guidance that they needed to do a good job and to work together um he was on the board at um at Penrose Hospital for a long time um and they were the only place that had like a basically like a detox um at that time to think yeah so if you think about sort of how Colorado Springs became this collaborative space for people working together in this field um he really was kind of the Cornerstone of that um so yeah it’s a remarkable sort of History I guess absolutely at least for Colorado and it’s really like the whole state right I’m I’m fortunate enough to know people from the Western Slope to the Wyoming border right and everyone at least that I’ve experienced the majority of them are so collaborative here and really trying to do what’s best for the client in that moment and it’s so inspirational to me like fills my heart yeah what was it you know I think back and and I’ll get to you know obviously your passionate side of things in the why but what was it what was the intention what drove Dr Gary Forest to come in here and like make incredible change in footprint here in Colorado Springs that just wasn’t there before well I can tell you the reason he moved to Colorado Springs was exclusively because it was beautiful love it so he grew up in Missouri and I think they took a road trip out here when he was really young and um he just made this commitment to himself that like this was going to be where he was going to plant and um you know and and build his career so something that simple this is a beautiful city it’s spectacular I mean it’s once you’ve lived here it’s hard to go other places you know where you don’t have that eye candy you know with the peak right there you know every day um but I think that um part of it was you know he was committed to the military and service members and at that time there was a lot of stigma around having served um and a lot of soldiers were coming back with mental health issues right and substance use disorder um and he has always been committed to serving that population um so I think that that was that was definitely part of it um and I think everything just sort of grew up out of um how things were evolving in healthcare and the destigmatization of substance use um and he was one of the first clinicians to really try to understand how it may be treated um and he published at least 12 12 books some I think if you were to go back and reread them you would go huh okay yeah yeah a different time you know sort of like that judge was saying that you had recently on uh on an episode you know it was a different time um but definitely laying that foundation and that groundwork and giving a voice to people who had sort of been in the shadows or shamed um you know and and saying you know it doesn’t have to be this way like we can treat this you know we need to give people a Lifeline um and put some pieces in place you know in in all different aspects whether it’s you know like one-on-one clinical care or if it’s in a in a program or if it’s in a hospital you know um a psychiatric hospit hospital with a hold yeah you know all those things so and and he worked really closely with you know the legal system you know um trying to advocate for people that had substance use disorder that’s huge and you know when I think about what you just outlined you know the word that comes to me is it’s courageous it was a courageous thing to do it’s a courageous thing to do today yeah right not mind you 1974 and you’re coming into an environment that’s really not trying to hear that yeah kind of stuff were on the back end of the Vietnam War and that was something that I was thinking of really clearly when I came to Colorado Springs that I had no idea of was how underserved the veteran Community was I’m in Arizona there’s not a lot of bases around you right it wasn’t part of the culture so I let you know we got retired military here I get to often times see them and then we see the completely and wildly underserved component so I’m grateful that you pointed at that in Dr Gary forest’s passion to move in and you know work with these individuals who quite frankly set in setting were severely mistreated not just by the military but the American public right so that that is heroic work in a time where it takes nothing less than courage right absolutely and at that time too as the War on Drugs was starting right at same the Reagan Administration that’s right you know my dad will go back and talk about the Reagan years I mean you know that that was a really good time to be in um in substance use care because there was money all of a sudden MH M um there was money and treatment programs were able to utilize that um kind of spending to build you know foundational programs you know there was suddenly an attention drawn to you know providing care like at a different scale right and and very visibly yeah yeah the Reagan years the forest family the Reagan years were definitely uh you know memorable I couldn’t even imagine there so much going on so much evolutionary change and well and and and as you know like in this industry it could be feast or famine right you know as far as the winter Symposium goes you know we weren’t able to host the Symposium during covid right that’s right we we had it in 2020 and that was like a month or two before everything was shut down and I got really sick and I suspect that it was probably circulating at the event that year right um but we didn’t have it in 2021 so if you’re doing the math on why this is the 50th you know like but we missed 2021 but there was like almost a rebound effect right like pressure was building and and there was money going into Mental Health Care coming down through grant money and the government and there was sort of a boon um you know when we hosted the event in 2022 and then again in 2023 and so you know it is kind of feast or famine so the Reagan years actually were um really pivotal I think much for like basically entrenching this kind of care and this awareness into sort of our mainstream um you know experience yeah what a beautiful take on that actually I I just have to mention it because it’s so different kind of For What I Hear often when you talk about the War on Drugs right it’s like this negative connotation on it right because it’s sort of viol blocking everybody right and it’s really aggressive yeah but to see that kind of opposite side right like that it did provide funding and it did help this boom of treatment centers which ultimately I think helps to end the stigma and make it more mainstream and common right and so that was just so beautiful yeah well so you know I guess there could be a lot of conversations about how it actually you know played out and sort of the images that we see now or some of the stereotypes that we might see um or think of when we think of that war on drugs but it really did sort of change the conversation um probably in a really positive way yeah in terms of those things like destigmatizing yeah get psychiatrist paid yeah and making this like a public it was then it became like a public health issue right put a light on it absolutely absolutely yeah that’s why I love doing this podcast with people because you get to
see all sides of a lot of different people’s stories and experiences and why they started in places and why it was reasonable and why it helped in it’s it’s it’s really cool and so I I I’m reluctant to ever call anything all bad no like it just might take another lens yeah another lens to see a different perspective yeah absolutely what are you most excited this year like 50 just feels like it’s like feels like a Super Bowl you know 50 is a big big thingl of Symposium yes Sarah everybody told us we were going to have fireworks this year sometimes the Symposium would be on Super Bowl Sunday it would start and I actually I remember that being like in a hotel room you know like over here at the antlers um and you know there would be people like all crowded in cuz they wanted to simultaneously be at the Symposium and watching the Super Bowl so that’s actually a pretty good that’s a pretty good memory for me but um it’s a really big year for a lot of reasons um obviously 50 years doing anything for 50 years really consistently um with the quality I think that that we produce and and provide year after year is special in its own right you know um that’s really unique um so there’s a lot of anticipation um we’re hosting a Gaya and that’s going to be um for me a real celebration um it’s going to be Lively and fun and um hopefully well attended um we’re going to um just really enjoy this mile marker and bringing people together and um having a sort of like uplifting festive typee of of feeling because so much of the content that we cover is not those things right you know we want everybody to come away feeling like they’ve gained some skills and knowledge but that’s not always in a really like happy space as far as topics go right um but so the Gaya should be like just a really fun celebratory um experience for the people that hope to attend or want to attend um and I’ve actually Nick has offered his party planning experience and um he and I got together and worked out some of the things that we’re going to do for the event so that’s really special and I appreciate that of course absolutely it’s really good really good energy and really inspiring um so so those are all the really positive things that are happening um and of course we have an excellent program um that kind of goes without saying it’s one of those conferences where you leave and and you really do I’ve I’ve been there’s two conferences one of them is very small TJ Woodward puts on the conference and I was just there but every business card you get yeah like I I found myself personally emailing every person because I had a 5 to 10 minute if 15 to 20 a conversation about what matters the most which is outcomes in humans uh and it was just so exceptional and the winter Symposium is is very close to that with with the amount of volume you all have there right I don’t know that there you know and I love kipo but like you know you go to a conference in Del the Keo like they take over the whole thing and it’s like great it’s cool yeah keep’s great and they are the status quo but like what about the humans right and you all speak to that really intelligently and it’s one of those conferences where like all of those business cards matter and it’s almost like their hands selected it is very it’s very unique that’s the thing that I love about it um what I love is that there are attendees that have returned year after year after year like Nick I didn’t know you had been coming for nine years because I too have been there for nine years and I remember meeting Brandon for the first time um when you guys were helping or Brandon was helping with the website you know so it’s it’s really fun obviously I’ve attended for quite some time should I divulge I think yeah this will be 48 years for me oh my gosh yeah so I mean you know my parents got married and literally uh they got married their anniversary is the end of December the 28th and they had to like they got married in Georgia and they had to hight tail it back to Colorado because my dad was working on what would become this right like he sort of had his first little um group of clinicians get together and sort of share knowledge um so yeah so 50 years is Big because for me it’s you know this is my Lifetime right like I’ve been involved in different ways for all these years and I have been involved in different ways in high school I was on a teen panel to talk about you know like substance use in high schools and among my peers I was so naive like looking back like I was not the right spokesperson for that and probably the other people on the panel were also not um but you know it was kind of self- selecting right like yeah we’re a little privileged yeah and then and then as an undergraduate I attended for credit and that was applied toward my psychology degree and then um after my graduate degree I presented at the winter Symposium on sort of the interface of culture and psychology and also very naive right I was also very naive but um but yeah so I mean like this has been a part of my life a long time so 50 years is obviously very symbolic um how many people were at the first one you many attendees if you ask Dr Forest till say somewhere between 25 and 30 okay you know it was like a really really small group and probably several of them were attached to Fort Carson sure um and I think in fact the very first one was actually on Fort Carson oh no way that’s pretty cool that speaks to that intention yeah that that early onset in intention yep and I I always ask about intention as like cuz where’s your Foundation yeah cuz it really informs why we’re here 50 days later right I uh one of my favorite quotes is by a guy Nam Rich R I’ve said it on the podcast a million times I’m going say it again when the heart is true the universe will conspire to support you I believe that so even in times of business like I’m sure your father walked through in 50 years and my only very novice 10 years in business there’s been times where I’m like I don’t know if we can do it I don’t know if we can make it I don’t know if we have the resource I don’t know if we have the people when the heart is true and so we just make sure it Peaks it seems like very similar to the way that your father did we just we just make sure that we’re doing the next right thing I will say that without a doubt unequivocally it my father always worked with Integrity always worked with the other person as the focal point or or first you know um very client centered right like everything was very client centered and and by client I mean we I use the term client like very Loosely right like anybody that was interfacing at the winter Symposium you know like deserved that same sort of respect and integrity so that’s one thing um that this has always been yeah yeah it’s funny when you say that I’m like I guys I zoom out 12 years and I’m like I think I’ve seen Dr Gary Forest helping somebody set up their Booth with like a pole he definitely didn’t use any tools that he just trying to be supportive yeah yeah that’s like me too I am so my wife’s like honey I’m like babe can you hang that for me good thing it’s true but no I mean he was always very generous that way I think um the thing that I have seen happen the most in my life over the last year which has been a difficult year for our family is the caliber of person that my parents surrounded themselves with and I don’t want to leave my mom out of the story so Sandra Dela Justina the original Symposium coordinator she and Dr Gary Forest have surrounded themselves with the most incredible people with the most integrity and the most most character um than I could ever imagine because they have stepped up for us in ways that you know I just never imagined you know and you grew up in that 100% that’s incredible I I always wonder right cuz my kids are eight nine years old and we have a a similar path in the field as we’re growing up around recovery and mental health they climbing through the boo all that’s right yeah absolutely used to collect the candy and all and in fact you know I mean that’s a legacy right like my own my own girls and my niece same thing you know they go through those exhibit booths and you know used to be like back scratchers and those little like squishy stress balls or whatever you know we just have bags it was like Halloween you know trick-or-treating yeah all the things but yeah yeah I’ve heard people say that you know you can take a young person and take the five closest people to them and they’ll be the sum majority of those those humans and it just seems heard that but that’s pretty powerful yeah very powerful you just kind of spoke to that in a way where I was like wow yeah that’s true that’s cool so I want to make sure today it’s not just me informing the quality of life for my children it’s the people that surround them and the child adult relationship is so so impenetrable right or wrong right negative or positive right absolutely so that’s really really cool to hear you say that I was going to ask what is it like tell me your story just kind of did that’s really awesome yeah yeah that is beautiful one of the things that we speak to a lot here at Peaks is just disrupting the industry through quality of care and why it was so top of mind for us as we came out of the again that Northern Arizona millu and we’re very mindful of the Southern California and the southern Florida millu as far as providers and so I think sometimes when we first made that when my brother and I made that you know specifically him and the team made that a core value I think originally we wanted to be disruptful just to be disruptful uhhuh and it was a little bit distracting for us uhhuh um but today I think we’re really well intentioned is is being disruptful one day at a time and how we treat individuals and who we connect with who we connect those individuals with and so maybe just throw it over to you what what would be one of the main things you think that your dad did with respect to not just creating an industry but like really disrupting what was well I think really foundationally embracing people in recovery or embracing people before the recovery let me back that up embracing people before they were in recovery and seeing the humanity and trying to destigmatize everything that sort of surrounds the person who’s using um you know he grew up in a really small town in the Midwest and he saw a lot of dysfunction and he saw a lot of primarily alcohol abuse right at the time in the 50s and 60s and um that left a Las impression on him um his parents didn’t use they weren’t drinkers um but he saw a lot of people in the community suffer um friends and their parents and something about that experience for my dad was very humanizing and really compelled him to see people for who they were um outside of their addiction or their substance abuse that I think in a lot of ways at the time was disruptive right it was and he’ll tell a story where there was a physician here in town I think he was a primary care physician around the same time in the 70s um do Gordon Regal and there was a detox opened um it was called the Regal Center but at that time Dr Regal was the only medical doctor who would treat alcoholics nobody else would treat them that’s right wow that’s my understanding of the way the story goes right um and so just even creating a space for people to come in detox and get medical supervision for that detox that was disruptive and my dad was integral to building that program and and partnering with them to build that program so I think like foundationally right if we rewind 50 years um that was disruptive what are we doing now that’s disruptive just being us we’re just us we are just this really small sort of Grassroots organization and we are not fancy and we don’t have huge deals with you know pharmaceutical companies and we’re just us I mean this is this is this is me and um you know like our team the people that you know provide sort of some advice and guidance around what to put on the program I mean it’s a very organic process and now that actually feels kind of disruptive yeah it is right like there’s a you know there’s a a large conglomerate that runs a lot of conferences and that’s just not us we are not them and we just do what we do year after year out of um from a place of compassion from a place of enthusiasm for improving care um I don’t know it’s beautiful right now that just feels sort of like different yeah you know yeah it’s a little bit different I I agree with you completely and I just have to say as well as you were talking about disrupting in the past I was getting like chills cuz for me being a person being in recovery that was kind of the feeling I still had and I mean this was what 10 years ago so it were 2014 right yeah and it still was that way back in the 70s you know and just to to know that those actions are what influenced my life today right even when I wasn’t there or touched in it is so impactful for me I’m like oh my God where would my life be yeah that Legacy piece is really huge I mean the one thing about the winner Symposium being what it is now is like some of the older people are no longer able to attend and so we are losing some of that um history I think um because it wasn’t always that you could go to treatment right right it wasn’t always that you could um you know talk with your healthc care provider about your substance use or whatever medications that you were using you know um that wasn’t always the case right like a lot of foundational work had to be done for us to be able to do what’s being done now yeah right like there’s absolutely no way I had a amazing show a few shows back Dr John nin you know what your dad did in 1974 and forms this opportunity for Dr John nine to come in and train HR departments on how to create safe places where people with substance use and mental health issues can come and say hey I’m having a bad day and am I not going to lose my job today right woo cuz now we can inform healing and hope and action and recovery and so it really is Pioneers like your father in 1974 which you’re going into a space well that verbiage might as well get you kicked out of town right that is not acceptable here and in a way you kind of had to work in the dark cuz I used to ask some of our old clinicians some of our old Chief CL clinical office like if you knew about sematic therapy why weren’t you talking about it or if you knew um right that some of these things could change and help heal people why were we just sending people to Alcoholics Anonymous and just that and he’s like because man like you it took a lot of courage and so just to speak to that I’m really grateful that you highlighted that again um because disrupting the industry or creating the platform thereof and moving forward with Grace and space and informing something that I’ve actually just really learned and inherited for myself in the last few years which is every diagnosis has a story right and you you about you should just learn the story right and that’s so important for healing right and it seems and it appears and it’s so cool too because a lot of clinicians and doctors it’s one of the things about mature adults with an esteemed career professionals sometimes are like they just stick to the old information and something about your dad he’s always grooving with the newest stuff connecting with the newest people seeing what fit and moving along with the times which is just gives me a chill definitely true in his profession not true in technology not true of Technology he still had trouble with like a flip phone cell phone we had to just eliminate that like it just you know but the word but in his in his field absolutely that’s definitely true he was always um just a voracious reader you know like just always um and always a healthy dose of skepticism nice you know always always looking for what was really sort of um professionally aligned and um I don’t know how to really articulate that but he was also really Discerning right he wasn’t easily distracted by fads or trends like he did what he did and he always just sort of had this very um professionally informed vein um you know which I think allowed him to to stay an expert and to sort of um see through some things that might not have been um you know in the best interest yeah of clients or other professionals yeah but he was he was really gifted yeah he was really gifted in that way you know he always had a healthy dose of skepticism but I think that that was um that was just part of who he maybe it’s even groundedness yeah maybe that’s what we call ISM today yeah yeah yeah yeah right yeah and he was he was very grounded in what he did he definitely owned his expertise for sure yeah and he’s wrote 12 books oh and that reminds me so I did I did bring you a copy cool as a gift of his Therapeutic Alliance book cool so sweet enhancing outcomes and recovery process yep and if you would like to have it’s not a signed copy but I can absolutely get it signed if you’d like to have a signed copy I would love to have a signed copy I know that was just weird what I did by my wife and I with books book make sure they’re real yeah I love the smell of a good book yeah I just recently heard that there are many children growing up without physical books in hilmes we make sure to read give her back at night yeah it’s really it’s kind of nostalgic actually I guess different yeah it’s but yeah this I always smell a a nice book and then New Pair of Shoes oh so I always put my face in the Box I don’t know what it is about that yeah chemicals yeah my wife’s like ass like SM matches you know we’re really excited as Peaks to be uh you know educational supporter and showing up for the conference I know Brandon’s putting on a a great panel um that we’re really looking forward to I know we are looking forward to having it because when you talk about disruption you know this is a topic that um I think needs to be um offered to clinicians so that they can understand the direction that we’re going and sort of the legitimacy of the work that’s being done in this area so so we’re happy and we really appreciate you taking the time to really cultivate an expert p panel yeah you know when I went to that one a couple years ago I really didn’t know what was going on I thought maybe you know okay mushrooms whatever and I went in there and I watched a group of professionals speak from their heart education insight and experience and I left there going this is a good thing when done properly it’s an exceptional thing specifically to our Point earlier I mean just the veteran community and the opportunity we have there I have some friends uh up in Denver that owns some really unique Alp programs but they’re getting some funding from the VA um for some International stem cells some remission of symptoms for TBI they’re doing some Cutting Edge work for combat veterans it’s never been done before and I think the VA is beginning to see it and so just back to that point of this plant-based potential opportunity right there is so much legitimacy and efficacy I think when done appropriately professionally and I think that’s just it when done appropriately and professionally and I think clinicians are curious yeah you know clinicians want to know okay this is happening so what does it mean how do we implement it where do we go for the resources that we need to feel really confident um in how this is administered to clients yeah absolutely so I appreciate that you guys are providing that to us this year it’s timely of course and we want our Clin we want all of our attendees to have access to the most sort of Cutting Edge um and professionally presented material as possible yeah so thank you for that it really is cool I can’t wait for the panel I’m like all ears I’m like oh my goodness this is awesome be so good yeah yeah Nick I know you’ve been working really hard to bring everybody together and get the materials together for us so that we can put it Forward on the agenda so thank you for your work on that yeah yeah absolutely I’m so excited really happy to do it I’m also really excited for our other talk which is Dr Dr Marissa Prince who’s oural director she’s great so great what is she speaking on cultural diversity oh sweet perfect person perfect absolutely yeah she is the executive director for don’t tell me we’re going to be disrupting the Cradle the prison pipeline it is educating children of color she is executive director for that nonprofit uh Regina Walters judge Regina Walters is the owner of that as well just doing really cool stuff so she is a great person to speak on that um it’ll be wonderful awesome that’s cool that they’re so well it’s been an absolute pleasure Sarah to have you on to get to know you even better my brother uh speaks highly not only of you but your family the the conference the opportunity we’ve had to connect professionally and personally and I just want to thank you from the bottom of my heart both your mother Sandy your father Gary yourself uh your entire family support to this community it it means the world and it’s it’s been very anchoring in our ten years here in Colorado Springs to be a part of a a tremendous Legacy as we we continue to cultivate ours alongside you guys and so as we wrap up here is there anything we want to let the viewers know we got any websites anything we can look at the conference date um just get that stuff out there so people can be aware yeah absolutely so the 50th annual winter Symposium starts um we’ve got a pre Symposium Workshop that’s full day on Saturday January 25th um we’ve got an Ethics um presentation that day so anybody that needs ethics hours um that’s a great way to get them all done at once and um we also have a suicide prevention um presentation going that day too and um you know anybody that attends that should be able to come away with some real clinical tools to use um with clients in crisis um and then everything really kicks off on Sunday um Sunday January 26th um everything gets rolling we’ve got the Gaya plan for that night um Sunday evening so that should be a lot of fun and um first year the Gaya yeah with this is it’s special for the 50th yeah special for the 50th so at one of our planning meetings I sort of Flo this idea and everybody got really excited it’s actually going to be sort of like a through the decades um theme so we are welcoming people to dress up from their favorite decade be sure that should be yeah for the 50th time yeah that’s right so but that should be really fun um I’m excited I’m definitely going to um dig out some old iconic I’m going to I’ll just say I’m going to go with the8 that was sort of my coming of age you know so kind of Madonna you know Cindy loer type of situation yeah so anyway so that’ll be really fun um one of the things that I’d like to highlight this is really interesting we have um Adam neoy coming who is the son of character Dr Spock from Star Trek um he and his father were um addicts and found their sobriety together um so that should be an exciting um session to attend that’s our lunch presentation so it’s like a story yeah I love that big story guy yeah so that would be really great yeah so um we are really looking forward to it um this is a busy time of year for us this is when we put all the pieces of the puzzle together the agenda was just published um so the full agenda is online and um yep it’s on the website and um you know everybody has an opportunity to sort of sift through and see what topics you know um resonate with them and um we’ve just got another really great program this year so I love it it’s it’s really cool Sarah um but really appreciate you coming on and for anybody who’s thinking you know we go to one conference a year it Peaks it’s this one and for good reason if you’re thinking or considering or looking at your budget coming into the year and you’re looking at your conference budget and your marketing I assure you your marketing dollars will not be spent better and more intentionally then in the winter Symposium um come find us I forget what Booth W but we’ll be there well and I want to I absolutely want to thank you and Peaks for being an integral supporter year after year because this is a small organization the event does not exist without your participation um so we thank you very much for coming back and um sending your your staff and other people in your network and trusting us um to give them the quality and content that they need to do a good job at Peaks for you guys so thank you so much Chris and thank you Nick thank you it’s been an absolute pleasure and until next time y’all peace

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Episode 136Justice, Education, and Change: Judge Regina Walter & ECOCWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/g6Oi8nKJnIEListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Chris Burns brings back Nik Darrah, our Community Outreach Specialist, to the show to help welcome our very special guest, Judge Regina Walter! Judge Regina served an illustrious judicial career spanning over three decades before stepping into a senior judge position and founding Educating Children of Color. Regina, Chris, and Nik discuss cultural biases, racial discrimination, and underfunded resources, to name a few, before clarifying the power of donations. Through ECOC, Diversity University, and Leadership Academy, Judge Regina Walter’s passion for supporting humans and solidifying community shines brightly to so many to see. For more information on ECOC, please check out Educatingchildrenofcolor.org.

Talking Points1. Introduction to the show (0:12) 2. Meet Regina Walter (1:00) 3. Assumption judgment in the judicial system (2:35) 4. breaking ‘the status quo’ (5:50) 5. Evolution of the system during Judge Regina’s career (8:20) 6. Implicit bias and racial discrimination (11:45) 7. The power of donation (15:40 8. Educating Children of Color (16:47 9. Breaking down ECOC scholarships (12:55) 10. Diversity University (23:00) 11. Leadership Academy (24:20 12. The Peaks Recovery Scholarship (27:42) 13. The ones who support you (28:57) 14. “Law School, Yes We Can” (30:48) 15. The Dream for ECOC (32:52) 16. ECOC Summit (36:45) 17. Educatingchildrenofcolor.org (38:45) Quotes

“A river is made one drop of rain at a time. So any small change that you make has the ability to have a cascading effect” – Judge Regina Walter, Founder ECOC

Episode Transcripts

Episode -136- Transcriptsso that’s cool we’re dismantling the Cradle to prism pipeline through education and that’s what education looks like to us that’s how people find long-term recovery is you paint a picture of a world that is exciting that they can see themselves within see themselves our mission is to dismantle the Cradle to prison pipeline for children of color and children in poverty through education
hey everybody and welcome to another amazing exciting and of course enthusiastic episode of Finding Peaks Yours Truly Chris Burns founder and president of Peaks recovery today I am joined today by one of my favorite humans in the world Nicholas Dara he’s our community Lea Zone Nick grateful to have you on the show thank you thank you I’m so happy to be back I love it here I’m so excited once again he’s been a premier guest and now he’s going to help me host a little bit talk about some things we’re doing in the community um but without further Ado I wanted to introduce the community and the viewers to Regina Walter thank you for joining us Regina I’m delighted to be here yeah it’s so cool I’m not going to give you her title her background her credentials she is going to inform you about her mission and vision and more specifically her passion and Community um Regina is the founder um she is currently disrupting the Cradle to prison pipeline um through educating children of color ecoc here in Colorado Springs it is a nonprofit her executive director you don’t have your shirt on I do oh there we go ecoc Leadership Academy the quote on the front is beautiful Malcolm X quote education is the passport to the Future for tomorrow belongs to those who prepare today wow if that’s not living 24 hours at a time I don’t know what is so thank you so much for joining us Regina please ignite the viewers with why you created this how how was it informed how did you come to be so passionate about helping underserved communities well I I’m going to I’m going to tell a long story love it so I became a juvenile magistrate in 1987 I was the youngest judicial officer in the state of Colorado oh my gosh and I thought that I was above reproach in every way and I went to a conference on disproportionate minority confinement in 1995 so I’d already been on the bench at that point for eight years so I go to this conference I’m young I’m female in the sea of old white older white men which is what most judicial officers then were and I am really sanctimonious because I know that I’m not part of the problem and 3 days into the conference I realize that if you are a black juvenile male and you get arrested on possession of crap cocaine that I assume that you’re a dealer and because you’re a dealer you don’t get a substance abuse evaluation you don’t get treatment and you don’t get out of detention and there was no evidence to support that assumption and I was completely unaware that I was making it white juvenile male exact same charges I assumed you were a user and because you were user you got a substance abuse evaluation and you got out of detention and again no evidence to support the Assumption and completely unaware that my implicit bias was impacting my decision making and I knew I treated girls differently than I treated boys because that was research based but unaware of the distinction I was making based on race so I came back in 1996 and started what was then called The Fourth Judicial District disproportionate minority confinement task force and a group of concerned individuals from CA the Department of Human Services the police department public defender office the District Attorney’s office and we started looking at disproportionate outcomes for children of color exclusively in the juvenile justice system and then we started thinking uh it’s not just a problem of Juvenile Justice black children particular excuse me children of color but particularly black children if there’s a call into the Department of Human Services on an allegation of child abuse or neglect they’re more the First Response by the department is that they’re more likely to put that kid into placement than to do any inhome services and that child is more likely to age out of foster care at age 18 without permanence than their white peers so we realized that the problem was not just the juvenile criminal system it was the system across the board and so in 2007 we decided the one thing that all of our kids had in common was education and so we started educating children of color and our first educating children of color Summit took place in January of 2008 so our mission and we became a 501 C3 in 2014 um our mission is to dismantle the Cradle to prison pipeline for children of color and children in poverty through education the that task force that I started in 1996 it still exists and it still looks at issues of over representation in the juvenile court and there are more of them around the state now because of that the in ception of that or since the Inception of that program wow that is tremendous yeah I going back just a little bit the implicit bias you talked about with respect to Children of color or people of color was that more cultural than anything else or was it just the status quo how it was the status quo and I can demonstrate to you how much of the status quo it was in 1991 the man who I was married to then said to me what do do you think Colorado springs’ racial and ethnic makeup is and I said onethird white onethird Black and oneir Hispanic because that’s what I saw in my court every single day yeah and I couldn’t have been more wrong Colorado as a state is 68% white now right and so you know that we haven’t gone the other way so I was my perceptions were completely warped by what I saw in my courtroom every single day they they were and so I was a juvenile magistrate for 21 years I became a county court judge in 2008 and the issues were the same in adult in the adult criminal system and exacerbated in fact exacerbated the rate of incarceration for a black man in Colorado is 6.6 higher than than the rate of incarceration for his white counterpart it’s 2.2 higher for a Latino individual so the system across the board continues to be rif with desparate outcomes yeah so I I became a county court judge in 2008 I retired in 2019 but I’m a senior judge so now I’m like a substitute teacher I just go wherever they need me in the state and I see this same numbers play out across the state absolutely so no thank you for that it’s really really inp I think for the viewers probably for a lot of them the first time they’re hearing this type of information it’s a lot of times like you know one of the questions I’ll get to is why don’t we talk about this more I think because it’s uncomfortable but bigger than that going back to the seat that you hold as a judge what have you seen from and I have to imagine there has been some progress you’ve been at the Forefront of a lot of it um what are some of the what are some of the progression specifically to El Paso County where Peaks recovery is what are some of the progressions we’ve made over the course of your 30-year career that you can see clearly um I would not say that I would not say that Minority over representation has changed okay I would say that as a Judicial System we are we are all getting more training on implicit bias we have recently added a jury instruction on implicit bias that says try to think about this as if the person in front of you was of the same race or of the same religion and so as a system we are trying to make differences um and appropriate changes but it’s very incremental and the problems are so pervasive that um I wouldn’t say that I could point to an area that we’ve made significant changes and I’ll tell you A lot of people will listen to this and when I say the rate of incarceration is 6.6 to1 for a black individual and they might hear that as saying black people are more likely to commit crimes but I want to talk to you about a statistic that I share every time I do talk about racial and ethnic disparities and that is when you look at exonerations look at exonerations so in the entire nation black individuals represent 13.9% of our population they are 41% of the individuals who are on death row so that’s that’s death penalty I said I was going to talk about exonerations and I didn’t but that’s death penalty yeah if you look at exonerations based on DNA evidence so I think 1989 courts started recognizing the validity of DNA evidence oh and so places like the Brian Brian Stevens Equal justice initiative and the Innocence Project um started challenging cases where where there’s there is DNA evidence and there’s not in most cases where people were saying I was wrongfully convicted and about 4,000 convictions have been over overturned since that maybe a little bit more Lora Watkins for example is a black man who served 41 years for a murder he did not commit but of those approximately 4,000 cases 53% of the exonerations 52% of the exonerations are black individuals yeah who are serving time for crimes that they did not commit um 64% of the total are are individuals of color who are serving crimes serving sentences for crimes that they did not commit that’s just based on DNA evidence if you look at the at the cases that have been dismissed because of wholesale dismissals because of police or district attorney malfeasant almost 90% are people of color wow wow holy smokes so um
yeah I really like that’s a problem that is I love data I don’t have a lot of it but I have it now yeah but that’s okay that’s yeah that’s a lot and I think it really goes back to that implicit bias right and this thought that we have internally that isn’t right or wrong necessarily right as long as you don’t act on it and it’s how do you move forward in your life by knowing and it’s I think that’s the first step yeah ibram X KY his book how to be an anti I think it’s how to be an anti anti-racist one of the things that that he just he talks about is to the extent that you do nothing yeah you just let it ride you let it fly you are part of the problem Abol you perpetuate implicit bias you perpetuate these negative outcomes so to the extent that you do nothing you are part of the problem when you and there’s an Afghani proverb that I love that’s is a river is made one one drop of rain at a time so if any small change that you make has the ability to have a cascading effect so if all you do differently every day is be more mindful about your decision making so is the individual who’s in front of me this young black juvenile who’s arrested with crack cocaine am I thinking about him specifically am I thinking about his circumstances am I thinking about or am I glomming every other black child who’s ever been in front of me together or every other person who’s ever had crack cone crack cocaine if I’m not being present and mindful then the problem continues and if the only change I make in my life is to be more mindful about my decision making that’s a big change that’s a huge change and that can have that can become a river that can be become a river of impact absolutely and just gives you so much exposure to different people right which I think is helps challenge those thoughts that we keep in our brain for example I had some implicit biases towards uh people experiencing homelessness for a while in my life right the media shows them a certain way I think I’ve talked about this on the show before and I believed that that was the case based on what the knowledge I had right and I gained education I gained experience with these people and I was able to shift that thought process and be like that’s not accurate that’s not true right and I think that’s kind of that thing right like it started with a little drop and I grew yeah it’s amazing remember your raindrop yeah yeah yeah and if you can live in that authenticity because I think that’s what it is yeah um because I can remember for a lot of times even in my recovery or working in Behavioral Health where I wasn’t putting my authentic foot forward because in fear of how that might impact Community one way or another and so just standing in that authenticity to say to say today like I’m not going to get this 100% right but I’m going to try yeah you know and I’m going to make my best effort I’m going to bring really brilliant people on the show I’m going to connect with people that know this stuff we’re going to do our best that has this ripple effect as you talked so eloquently about in community that is just so relatable you know people can really connect with that so um I wanted to talk about the nonprofit and what donations actually do for individuals in community CU I think sometimes it’s Miss that like well I only have uh $200 to donate it probably won’t help anybody um and so I just wanted to and I’m going to have Nick talk about you know the opportunity we’re engaging with you and um educating children of color but first like what is the impact of these donations for viewers is we’re coming on the holidays um where a lot of us here in the United States we engage excess and privilege and a lot of things what does a simple donation do in a time like this for individuals who are underresourced okay the first thing is and this is every dollar counts we are tiny we’re a tiny nonprofit We have two halftime employees that’s all we have otherwise all of the work that we do is volunteers including me and as the founder um I act like an executive director but I’m also traveling all over the state being a retired judge so as a senior judge I just go wherever they need me during in the state but um but I will be at Panorama Middle School next week and I will be at Mountain Vista Middle School next week um so I want to talk about the things that we do and how and how donations can support but I also want to make an admonition which is that I’m still a judge so I’m not allowed to ask for money yeah okay I’ll ask okay so me too all right just wanted to make sure I got that out on the record so we have a number of programs one of them is the educating children of color Summit it t it I told you the first one took place in 2008 we had 350 people there wow amazing dang we will have we will have 1600 people at Fountain Fort Carson High School on January 25th and the Summit is for 8th through 12th graders it’s free for parents and for college students it’s free and then for people who are getting professional development credits it accounts for eight eight hours of professional development it’s 35 bucks so it’s a really cheap opportunity to opportunity to get professional development credits so we hope to have about 800 Youth and about 800 adults at Fountain Fort Carson High School it’s on January 25th everybody is invited yeah so any donation you make can help support that that event it’s a big deal we have 100 breakout sessions we have a hundred speakers from all from all over the nation and we give away a boatload of scholarships one of which is being sponsored this year by Peaks recovery centers um so in the last I told you we’re tiny we don’t have a physical location yeah we we just are in our cars doing our thing I get that in the last four years we’ve given away more than $400,000 in scholarships and educational gifts we’ll give away 88,000 in scholarships um to Juniors and seniors and undergraduate college students on the 25th will’ll also give away $10,000 in educational gifts so an educational gift is just $500 that when you get enrolled in school we give it to you personally instead of to the school so you could buy a comforter if you need to you can buy a laptop if you need to you can buy new clothes if you need to and twice now on an emergency basis we have run money up up to UCCS to pay for somebody’s parking their parking permit CU they were like I didn’t know and it’s today I didn’t know and it’s today we’ve run money up there so we’ll give away $10,000 in educational gifts we’ll give away 20 laptops and for educators we’ll give away five educator Awards so $500 for classroom enhancement wow so it’s like I don’t know if you know about the nonprofit donor’s choice but you support schools but so it’s like donor’s Choice except the recipient doesn’t even have to apply they just have to show up at the summit wow that’s so that’s the summit we also give free SAT prep classes that are online Colorado college students um Colorado college students work with individuals for 10 sessions between the summit and the date that the SAT takes place and we pay those mentors from College we also have a program and this is I I’m I want to talk about what education means to us I said for I told you about the scholarships I also told you about the summit so our goal with the Summit is that youth get exposed to Career to people in careers that they’re interested in who look like them we want them to learn empowerment skills we have self-defense classes we we have culinary arts classes the zoo is going to do a session the cheyen Mountain Zoo is going to do a session on zoology so if you want to handle the snake that’s cool well you can because you’re an adult session sorry I’m okay I don’t need that yeah there every single student who attends is going to spend time with Kingdom Builders um learning about healthy relationships beautiful and then they’ll have an opportunity every single student so they get to choose two breakout sessions have to go to the healthy healthy relationship one and then they also have an opportunity to mingle in a vendor room where they learn about distracted driving and scholarship opportunities so then for the adults our goal with the college students is to give them more skills to get on with their lives with parents it’s to learn how to communicate with your kids and how to communicate with schools and for the Educators it’s how to embrace and Inspire kids who don’t look like them weren’t raised like them don’t eat like them because most teachers are middle-aged white women and so it’s an opportunity for them to elevate their skills and to keep from pushing kids out into the juvenile justice system so that’s one way in which we Embrace education the second is or or promote education the second is the scholarship money oh I want to say a couple more things about the scholarships just because absolutely this is an opportunity to promote you have four years to use your scholarships so let’s say that you are going to a school that you have full financial aid the first year but you want to do a semester abroad the second year and your school will not cover that guess what will that’s awesome so a little bit more Dynamic it’s so Dynamic and and like I said you have four years to use it and and under one circumstance we have a kid who’s so brilliant that he’s got a full ride for his full time and he said is there a way that we can use this for living expenses and I said yes but then it becomes taxable income he said okay sure so that’s not the that’s not the norm but we are really flexible yeah okay so that’s scholarships one of the ways in which we educate SAT prep is one of the ways we educate but the other thing is we have a program called diversity University and diversity University is co- facilitated by Dr Regina Lewis Professor amerita from Pikes Peak Community College and the founder of Regina speaking and I and me and and me it’s co- facilitated by us and we have experts on topics that we are not experts on and so we have experts on lgbtq issues isues we have experts we have a an transgender educator who always participates when we address transgender issues we have people who are ability and ablism experts so Regina and I defer to other experts to make sure that we’re not telling somebody else’s story so we facilitate diversity University which is we’ve had students as young as 17 and as old as 84 a 10 and it’s all about looking at your implicit and explicit biases yeah and how you can leverage your power to increase equity and Justice so that is one form of Education that educating children of color is about then finally we have the leadership academy and the leadership academy is a program that is for the full academic calendar year we have mentors from Colorado College UCCS Pikes Peak and CSU Pablo and we meet with kids primarily in southeast Colorado Springs but we also have a cohort in D20 um we meet with kids from 13 schools I believe and work on work on increasing leadership skills exposing them to career opportunities what it takes to get into college how you maximize your high school and middle school career we actually have six middle schools eighth graders all all all of our participants from middle schools are eighth graders from Harrison School District 2 so we have this Leadership Academy and that’s one way we embody education and then this summer for the first time ever we had summer versions of the leadership academy so we had eight we had 608th GR ERS from District 11 who we had a a stem week with them cool that they learned about the life cycle of butterflies they yeah and and then we also had a summer version of the leadership academy with 25 um high school students from Harrison and Sierra where they learned to become restorative justice practitioners yes so that’s cool we’re dismantling the Cradle to prison pipeline through education and that’s what education looks like to us yeah and that is like I certainly couldn’t have said it better myself but that’s how people find long-term recovery is you paint a picture of a world that is exciting that they can see themselves within see themselves I can be a part of this with you that’s the because I’ve been told my parents have been told and their parents have been told throughout Generations that this isn’t for you yeah wow that gives me chills yeah cuz it was old man Steve and Alcoholics Anonymous who said that I could live in this world with you all and I was like I believed him yeah tremendous what you are doing in community Regina um grateful to be connected with you um and share in some of this and you let me know where my service position can be and you’re nonprofit and I’ve talked to Dr Marissa Prince multiple times I’m like let me go to the high school kids I want to hang out high school kids um I am passionate about your cause and so much so I want to just turn it over to Nick a little bit about the opportunity that we’re engaging with this year and hopefully years to come hopefully this can be an annual thing maybe a semiannual as we begin to move into a new season um of Peaks recovery so I want to turn it over to niy and how we engage with the opportunity sitting in front of us today and also Dr Marissa Prince is the director of the leadership academy and has very significant role at your organization yes she does our Clinical Director and a good friend of mine we lucky it was a recommendation from him to that’s right yeah yeah so we’re so fortunate this year to be able to sponsor a $2,000 scholarship for somebody uh working on their undergraduate in human services and that so aligns with not only your guys’s mission to provide this education and help change that pipeline right but also with our mission right which is to change the treatment history or treatment industry I mean and I think it was just such a beautiful opportunity that we can really go hand inand and show up as part of this community that has done so much for Peaks right by allowing us to be here and that we’ve been able to integrate into for the last 10 years and be a part of and now we’re in this beautiful opportunity to show up for people who might not even need treatment right but we’re still here in Colorado Springs showing up for the community and being as helpful as we can be it’s a beautiful thing I love that yeah and I love prevention behind it cuz it’s like it’s so preventative like let’s move in we don’t actually have we can inform thriving absolutely instead of surviving which is so cool about what you do like let’s not wait for this thing that’s the point the leadership academy look at this oyster that’s open to you look at it yeah and it’s so true I mean I think even at my own recovery story right like there was a time when I was like I’ll never be able to be sober this cannot be the life for me was told once you do certain drugs that’s who you are that’s what it’s going to be for you right once you get a felony your life is over it doesn’t matter what’s you’re never going to get an apartment you’re never going to get a good job you’ll never be able to get in college Etc and by having Chris actually be like you can have this life right I have experiences similar to yours and you can get to the other side of it was like the eye openening moment for me and I think it’s probably the same feeling it feels the same for people that we’re working with in this way would you agree I I would agree and some people it one thing that’s interesting to me is I told you the educational gifts are door prizes so more than once I’d say at least eight times a kid has called me and said I never thought about going to college but this $500 I felt like I couldn’t leave it laying on the table cuz I could only get it when I enrolled in school and guess what I’m about to graduate so isn’t that great so cool amazing yeah and and you get to inform you know a lot of F I know even for myself included um had a view with respect to law enforcement and the judicial system in general and it was a pretty negative view yeah I don’t have that negative View today because it’s been informed through quality individuals who direct and guide that system um and you’re one of them you’re welcome and so for these young kids to see who may have a little bit of dis quite a bit of distrust for law enforcement and the legal system altogether you get to come in the front-facing form of a scholarship and an opportunity to thrive in a community that they didn’t think they were part of wow that’s cool so if if you have a child who might be interested in law school there will be sessions um law school yes we can is a program out of Denver that Christ CHR Ina Jud um federal judge Christina aruo who graduated from Coronado High School that she started that mentors kids in college through law school so if if you’re interested if you have a kid who’s interested scholar who’s interested in law and then there will be a law a legal panel also at the summit so um judges of color attorneys of color again so that our kids can see themselves reflected in potential careers absolutely that’s so helpful you know I I remember sitting there and being like did you do drugs then I can’t talk to you yeah you know I can imagine for somebody uh from those communities would have even more edges to them with respect to trust and who can show up and inform anything for me so I love that you’re doing that it’s it’s be it takes a lot of presence um and what a grateful opportunity it is to have you on the show today before we let you go I know we’ve been telling stories for an hour before we started we could do it forever I was sitting in a coffee before this I said I’m going to go sit with um a human who was a judge for 30 years and I want to ask her if Tupac’s death was a setup and he’s like are you really going to ask that and I was like and I did so I can tell you her answer but before we get out of here what is see I tend to believe that this resource you’re providing in the community is only going to be Colorado Springs and Colorado driven for a temporary period of time I believe things like this have a contagious way of spreading throughout community and people connect with it because it’s authentic real and people know we need it yeah so for you what is your dream for educating children of color and disrupting the Cradle to prison pipeline so I have I have two that are just really simple I’d like to be able to pay for a full-time executive director because we really need need someone who can go out into the community and spread the word because the second part of that dream is that we need to be people need to know about us and despite the fact that we’re going into the 18th Annual educating children a color Summit people still say I’ve never heard of that or I’ve never heard of you we want to become so um known in the community that we can expand we’ve been asked to replicate it in Massachusetts we’ve been asked to replicate it in Nebraska we’ve been asked to replicate it but we’re we’re tiny yeah and so without and and it’s hard to this is this sounds like it’s whining it’s hard to apply for money if you’re if you don’t have a full-time executive director and it’s hard to be a presence if you’re not able to be you don’t have a full-time executive director so that’s our goal to have a full-time executive director and to become renowned and then once we’re renowned to ex spread to to expand the reach we’ve had kids attend the summit from Wyoming and from New Mexico and one year somebody complained because we didn’t spread the word in Kansas and I like dang sorry sorry could could you do that for us in the future could you would you so but in our own Community we are not known yeah and so we really that’s the goal is we want to be known because that will increase our impact that’ll increase our reach I will tell you that this year we turned away 110 kids for the leadership academy because we don’t have capacity we can take about 20 kids per school because we just don’t have capacity beyond that yeah would love to have a Leadership Academy with 440 kids instead of 330 and if that Leadership Academy then expanded to 3,000 kids that would be amazing and if it expanded to Wyoming and and New Mexico I’m pointing in directions I have no idea pretty sure that’s what you’re close yeah it’s like a I always get yeah Kansas so we would love to be able to expand what we’re doing because disproportionate minority confinement exists in every state in the nation and despar outcomes in terms of poverty in terms of school discipline in schools in terms of school attainment in terms of college graduation in terms of Juvenile Justice and criminal justice exist everywhere in the nation and we want that to stop and that’s the Big Goal I talked about little tiny goals just for us to be more more visible our goal is for every kid to reach their full potential and to to dismantle not to dismantle the Cradle to prison Pipeline and that’s the goal beautiful I love it we’re making a huge uh huge step today as we get this information out to our listeners I definitely would love to bring you back after the summit oh fun and bring you on for kind of a multi-layered approach so we can continue to inform the community and our viewers and have pretty big reach of who and what you are and and what the opportunity is for children to begin to thrive in these communities so if you I want your I want your listeners your viewers to mark their calendar for and register for January 25th for the educating children at color Summit January 25th but diversity University will take place the week of June 23rd it is a 40h hour commitment it is a full work week it’s cheap it’s 80 bucks um it’s 80 bucks and it’s 40 hours of professional development but it is life altering and then diversity University 2 I think will take place maybe like July 9th okay and that is three so the first is the full week the diversity University 2 is is three days and amongst other things what you do is complete an um Intercultural development plan um that’s kind of cool it is cool also what’s cool about it is that I know that most most of us think that we’re more enlightened than we really are and so that that particular inventory that particular inventory makes you confront that issue I actually felt that on your website it almost felt experiential is yeah in like as far as the leadersh uh uh the leadership thing um where it could be life-changing yeah is there some experiential in there oh completely okay Co yeah yeah I love me experiential yeah yeah if you don’t leave feeling like you’ve been run over just about every single day you haven’t been doing the work I love it that’s my kind of That’s my kind of show right that’s right so yeah and I’m sure with Dr Mera Prince there too doing it I’ve done a cultural diversity training with her at a previous employer and it was phenomenal amazing excellent we let it together it was so fun yeah that’s cool yeah well I really appreciate you Regina Walter um really quick before we head off I know she gave us a lot of information for the viewers a lot of dates but also website how do people get a hold of you how do they donate the website is educating children of col.org we’re on Facebook we’re on Instagram we’re on what else is there yeah know the bird the Twitter we’re on Facebook we’re on Instagram we’re part of the the Colorado gives campaign and the Pikes speak gives campaign and if you just Google educating children of color you’ll get to our website and lo and behold there’s a donate button on that too yeah click that thing pretty easy from there um let’s think about that as we draw into the holidays and some of us are you know um you know trying to make ends meet and then for others we’re living in excess and so just think about where we’re at in this holiday season and what we can afford to do for somebody who um truly needs it the most it’s been an honor a privilege of mine to have you on the show I know Nick as well thank you so much Regina Walter thank you one of my favorite humans in the world and becoming my second favorite human world until next time my beautiful people peace yeah bye byebye I love it

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Episode 135The Power of Purpose: Redefining Recovery and Impact with Amanda KoplinWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/_dSYD0UJV2AListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Chris welcomes Amanda Koplin, Founder and CEO of Koplin Consulting, to the show to engage in a spirited conversation! From hearing Amanda’s powerful journey leading her to work today to grow that passion into a mental health social enterprise, Chris and Amanda look further into needed areas of strength and support throughout recovery. Thank you, Amanda, for your “if not me, then who” approach and for sharing your knowledge as well as Koplin Consulting; for more information, check out Koplinconsulting.com.

Talking Points1. Introduction to the episode (0:35) 2. Amanda’s story (2:55) 3. Environments connected to change (4:55) 4. Creating a life worth living (6:05) 5. Looking into self-esteem (7:01) 6. Relapse as a “norm” (8:50) 7. “If not me, then who…” (12:48) 8. Mental health social enterprise (14:40) 9. Success as a moral obligation (22:07) 10. Amanda’s “Why?” (25:18) 11. Final thoughts (27:20) 12. Koplinconsulting.com (27:50) Quotes

People are sitting in the most vulnerable times in their life, and they are waiting for someone to reach in and say I’m here for you, and I’ll help you. . . Whether you think you are ready or not, I’ll sit with you and walk back into life with you”.-Amanda Koplin, Koplin Consulting

Episode Transcripts

Episode -135- Transcripts[Music] the mirror cracks you’re looking at this cracked image but you happen to believe that’s yourself instead of realizing the original image isn’t cracked it’s the reflection you’re looking in now you’re building self-esteem because good things and your value are reflected back to you whether you’re you think you’re ready or whether you’re not I’ll sit with you and I’ll walk back into life with you
[Music] hey everybody and welcome to another amazing exciting and you know of course enthusiastic episode of Finding Peaks your host Chris Burns president and founder Peaks recovery centers so grateful to be here today um and I know I say this often because I only bring on brilliant badasses that I truly love and enjoy to connect with but this human in particular um this was one of these situations where I went for a tour up in Vil at a great Treatment Center up there and I had the opportunity to sit down for a dinner and instantly I was connected to this human’s energy her purpose her Mission the way that she shows up and all weeks and she’s agreed to do the podcast with me I’ve been talking about Amanda copelan and Copeland consult things so without further Ado Amanda thank you for coming on the show so grateful to have you my friend thank you for having me this is awesome yeah absolutely absolutely I mean when I first met you I thought to myself authenticity right off the bat and and it was actually a dinner that I didn’t necessarily want to be at and the reason I didn’t want to be at the dinner it had nothing to do with the treatment providers had nothing to do with the people that were showing up in the room but it had a lot to do with what I thought was going to be more of the same which is people sitting around a table talking about things that don’t matter um excluding the things that do like the humans that sit in front of us each and every day so I look at it as a complete waste of time honestly I felt the I felt the exact same way the the crazy thing about that dinner is that by the time we were done everybody thought we were old friends I know yeah they’re like who are you I’m like we don’t even know each other but now we are friends you know we spend the whole dinner just talking to each other no there was like 12 other people there too yeah it was awesome you’re one of the people that I I like went home I told my wife about him like you gotta meet this person like she was she was awesome so I’m really grateful to have you on the show thanks for coming on Amanda’s actually working as we speak I’m so grateful that you carved out some time for us to just kind of let the viewers know um that there’s amazing humans out there doing just phenomenal work so I want to get into kind of my first question is like how did you get into this field I know you talk about it so eloquently on your website and that’s something I really want to affirm you for is not a lot of people have the courage to put their story on their website and how it informs the work that they do and I just think that takes a lot of Courage so I want to affirm you but also just kind of share with the viewers a little bit about what that experience was like so I had my own uh eating disorder when I was younger but my older sister she also struggled with an addiction alcohol and gambling and um so we all know that mental illness runs in families and there’s a genetic component um and so I would always say to myself that if my providers were there when I actually needed them my life would look a lot different I think whether you’re talking about alcohol and drugs Eating Disorders anything like it’s the moments that we battle ourselves that are the hardest moments to overcome and so I knew that uh I’m not such a unicorn and so special that if I’m the if I need that other people probably need that too um and then fast forward after grad school I did in home counseling for kids charged with felonies in Supreme Court in New York city so everybody involved with those kids you know the courts probation schools family everybody we were involved with them so I became very very Adept at learning how to work within systems and recognizing that parents and family they’re not just support people those are traumatized people who need somebody to come around them too and the fact is drowning people can’t save drowning people and yet we put this burden on family members just because they haven’t created a level of such dysfunction that they are forced into treatment and um we forget that they also have their own traumas and in capabilities where they need somebody to sit there and sympathize with them and say hey I’m here for you too and so you saw that throughout your own personal experience is is like really uh putting together a team uh multi-disciplinary approach if you will to serve um your process it just wasn’t available it was probably disconnected and so you started to see like I could have thrived instead of survived in a lot of different areas and that’s what Copeland Consulting has kind of stepped in and and been able to do in a really cool way right 100% I mean it’s the difference between someone coming to your environment and you going to theirs and they feel a lot more empowered in their own environments to tell you to f off or you know you get to see what things are actually like versus the way they present in an office and that’s where change could actually be made is within the system within the moment that is that is so unique and I had never really conceptualized that all the clients had come to us but what you’re bringing up for me is we used to have six to 12 months of programming for young adults in right around five months they would finally be home and and so it’s this really disconnected process where they can’t settle right it’s a primal issue can’t settle it’s foreign different people I got a roommate who snores it’s um I’m in fight ORF flight and so I’m in that same reactive traumatized situation that I was before I left and so it takes a long time and that’s why I always used to pitch to people this just takes time you know um to your point I think we we can not not hurry up that process but engage with it more presently I think the other thing that I’m really passionate about is creating a life worth living and I focus on purpose passion and community and I have this theory that when someone’s missing one or more of those things they default to eating disorders addiction depression anxiety and so a big part of our program is helping them Connect into purpose passion and Community as they are also overcoming the obstacles of their addiction the obstacles of their eating Disorder so that is a parallel process with both building the life to recover too and recovering that is that is so cool because what what we be what the treatment industry has become has let me disconnect you from Passion and purpose we’ll get to that later after you figure out this mental health thing when they’re all actually interconnected and actually can provide a lot of equinity for people to say like I know I’m working through this thing but I can also do this as well and connect those things and stand upright for sure and that’s the thing self-esteem is built on esteemable acts if you’re sitting there talking about self-esteem it’s not going to happen you’re not going to build it and looking at yourself in the mirror and saying I love myself when you don’t believe it makes you walk away feeling worse and like the whole thing’s [ __ ] but when you do things like hey let me be of service to someone else and you see how that’s reflected back to you or you show up to a job and someone says you know I want you to know I saw you do this extra thing and it was really cool now you’re building self-esteem because good things in your value are reflected back to you and you can’t do those things in the context of a bubble or if you can in little ways through volunteering um when you get home you don’t know where to restart yeah you bring up an amazing Point like it’s not it’s not to call stabilization taboo like that’s a very formidable step but once we get there and we move into to like this can all come together in a really really beautiful way that allows people who are dealing with shame to be seen valued and heard and I think that’s a really like unique thing which gosh it doesn’t feel like it should be but it feels like this really unique thing because even when I got well six when I got well 16 years ago and they sent me to Alcoholics Anonymous they said you are these things and you’ll never be that and it’s really really difficult to deal with especially at a young age like life sentences yeah of certain things and you speak so clearly to like hey let’s just take off of the take off those hard rigid edges and you have a quote on your website I don’t want to misquote it but a world where relapse is looked at differently or a world where relapse isn’t the the norm yeah yeah can you talk about that a little bit because when I saw that I was like I definitely want to bring that up I think I think we have this narrative about um you know well recovery isn’t linear and relapses are normal and I think okay yes and sometimes it’s easy to use that as an excuse to go backwards let me relap I already feel like relapsing I’m gonna relapse and then remind you that you told me it’s normal part of the deal you said multiple so I said I’m gonna sit in the excuse of that and let myself off the hook and um I think that the other piece it’s like people can’t figure it out in the context of their own environment you know there’s so many reasons and so when you’re working on recovery at home when you’re setting up systems at home and they’re sustainable systems there’s an easier congruence between like where you started with someone and what they have to maintain even after you’re gone and all they have to do is keep the ball rolling so I think that that it’s a m multifaceted type of answer it’s like okay from the environment you’re doing in also helping the system heal and also eliminating the excuse and say you can have multiple relapses be a part of your story you don’t need my permission to do that and if you want to avoid that you get that choice too yeah like you have autonomy in this potentially and you can move through it with some Grace and it brings up a point for me like I wonder if what if what if relapse wasn’t like this thing that happens because people get in this bad spot but what if it was
more my friend TJ Woodward who I love he he formulated a community- based resource called conscious recovery and he talks about he takes a terminology like maladaptive coping mechanisms and he refers to them as brilliant strategies right just to like lessen the pressure because when we have these mou adapted situations which oftentimes are relapse or behaviors or process or whatever it is I think calling it something different really kind of speaks life into why the freak it showed up in the first place yeah I was really struggling I was super young and it and I did this thing and it just it’s it’s killing me now and maybe if we can take a little bit of light off of the thing then to your point relapse doesn’t have to be such a part of it because we’ll realize that that brilliant strategy served us potentially and it’s not serving us anymore and we can it just feels a little bit cleaner you know yeah for sure and like the big question is maladaptive to who and in what context right because maladaptive is contextual yeah people are very creative in their ability to survive and I think recognizing that resilience is super important so that’s awesome that he talks about that yeah I really love the the approach that you take like with each client before the show we were talking about you know because you’re working right now and I asked you hey what’s the difference between you know you showing up on a job or you showing up with a human and walking with them in the early stages of their recovery and it’s a lot about trust and it’s a lot about orienting the family and it’s a lot about comfortability and um what are some of your favorite things even being the CEO and the founder like you know it’s it kind of reminds me like taking a smoothie and and just sitting down with client being like how are you what are some of your favorite things about because you still even was it eight years in six for which thing for your uh uh your coaching business oh we’re nine years in nine years in okay I eight or nine years nine years in you still carry a tremendous amount of passion to be somewhat of a technician yeah you know I I remember in school they were talking about like uh Martin Luther King when we were all really young and I did a book report on him in like fourth grade and uh I remember hearing his words and he said if not me then who if not now then when and I thought to myself if everybody carried that level of responsibility the world would change and so I really took that to heart from that moment on and asked myself you know okay what needs to be done and what’s my part in doing it and I think so many people are verbally ambitious and they talk about what the president needs to change what and like pting off responsibility to everybody but themselves and um whether it is being a personal uh coach with a family in their home and dropping everything because somebody called for help whether it’s uh stepping up to train a coach whether it’s running uh a multi-million dollar coaching business that’s a social Enterprise you know and taking on a scholarship client um it doesn’t matter to me like what the thing is it’s my passion for that personal ownership and creating the change and then holding everybody else to that same standard yeah that’s beautiful that’s entrepreneurial that’s managerial that’s technical that’s all of the things in there that really speak to like authenticity within a business model and you’re kind of leading that charge and I just love it because in so many ways what you just said disrupts the industry through quality of care for sure that’s one of our core values here um but we haven’t even touched on like how I really feel like you’re disrupting the industry I want to talk about and each person I talked about this with this week it’s the first time they’ve heard of it now I know you got it out of a book that you’ll speak clearly to um in that process but social Enterprise right you you’re you’re helping folks with complex case management which is really really difficult to do it’s a multifaceted approach takes a lot of resources you’re also doing this other thing too at the same time you please share that it’s beautiful yes so uh from the time I was 13 I started volunteering uh my first volunteer job was at a battered women and children shelter and so what I learned is that uh on average it takes women seven times to leave their abuser and it was devastating and um so my little volunteer job was you know babysitting their kids while they did job interviews counseling session you know like they’re not going to put a 13-year-old in charge of something big but I wanted to contribute and so um um in talking to some of the people that work there you know I would say why why is she going back I’d be devastated little 13-year-old me would just be devastated and um they would say well you know like this one doesn’t have money and it’s really scary to go out on your own without money or a resume where you can get a job or you know all these things and then fast forward I work in other nonprofits to uh you know just get jobs or experience or lure hours and each time it came down to money why can’t this kid get more services well this kid is robbing people because that’s the oldest male in a family the mom is on disability that doesn’t pay the bills the dad’s in jail what is he supposed to do can we just give him money and the crime could stop and so understanding how much money played a make or break role in people’s success um is the same thing like think about with mental health like how many people call and they’re on Medicaid how many people call and they don’t have insurance period um or the right insurance or Insurance cuts out yeah so uh I knew nonprofits weren’t the answer because I saw so many people lose grants and they were spread too thin that the money couldn’t make a sustainable difference and I read Blake mosi’s book about creating Tom shoes in the social Enterprise model of you know buy a pair give a pair and I thought that’s that’s what I need to do for mental health I need to create a Mental Health social Enterprise so that I could create more Equitable access to mental health care across the board and um like in addition to giving the free services if you think about a family on food stamps and like one of the kids has an eating disorder and now the rest of the family is looking at them like you purposefully lost weight you need to regain it by eating more we don’t the financial resources who’s not going to eat so that you could regain the weight and what does that do to your feelings about recovery so we buy all the supplements we door Dash meals to the family to practice meal outings we give them uh HB as one of the stores in um Texas but it’s a grocery store so we give them grocery store cards you know so that recovery doesn’t have to take away from the basic necessities of the rest of the family and that takes money yeah so it’s not just free services it’s meeting basic needs and we’re not going to help people get Equitable access even when we give them free services if we can’t also help meet their basic needs yeah wow that is so intentional and beautiful and well thought out is it is it is it every pair of shoes I don’t I want to say over pair of shoes but 50% of everything you bring how does it work on your side of things how do you know what to allocate to the social Enterprise is it 5050 all the way through or how do you do that uh you know that’s a great question I think um you know I heard Mother Teresa talk about giving so much it hurts and I think that it hasn’t been as formalized as I want it to be and every year we give more than we probably should but um you know whether it’s cutting out from my salary or cutting out from an additional thing that maybe I wanted to do with marketing it’s more important to meet people’s basic needs and and have faith that things will come around than it is to have an extra 10 grand an extra whatever in my pocket no I I love that I love that you’re speaking to this clearly and you’re going into community and I think you told me about the social Enterprise first before you even told me about the case management situation because you tend to carry a lot of passion for both but this is like the passion project side of things and um it really just speaks clearly to kind of your mission and vision and you know each and every day that you put that foot forward um you’re disrupting the industry through quality of care it really is unique and Brilliant and well- intended and we love connecting with that kind of energy at Peaks when I don’t know if I told you this maybe I did but when we opened the women’s program Serenity Peaks back in 2015 I remember calling the one referral I had Parker Valley Hope and I was like listen I’m down to scholarship 10 women right now or excuse me five women out of the 10 beds we have and she they’re like are you kidding me and we did my wife went down in the van picked them up three of them are like living beautiful lives you know it’s so cool to be a part of that and then there was a point when uh more business-minded people started running my business my brother he’s like hey man you cannot have 17 scholarship beds here dud we like dude we got 10 people in iops like nine of them aren’t paying I’m like H but they’re doing so good though you know they’re doing good and they’re changing the world you know I’m just that’s that’s the hard part about
scaling 100% you know that I also think business is a spiritual game you know what you put out it just comes back to you tenple I don’t know how to explain it I don’t know you know there’s no kind of business uh book on the spiritual game of business but you know like like there are times when we’re really hurting for clients and then I give a scholarship suddenly the phone rings and we get 10 people that walk through the door and say oh my gosh I’ve been looking for something like this I can’t believe I found it it’s just the craziest thing yeah it always reminds me and I’ve I’ve said this quote probably 10 times on this show but I’ll continue to say it because it’s person in long-term recovery who I think speaks really brilliantly to these types of things and he always says when the heart is true the universe will conspire to support you yeah and I’m just like let’s just keep this thing true let’s keep it integrous and that was my commitment in recovery uh when I had my when I had my dealings with the powers that be if you give me this I’ll do this it was like I I’m gonna walk with Integrity in a big part and I’m gonna ensure that I do that and please just allow me to have my left shoe yeah I love that because that’s what you do it’s kind of a it’s not a blind walk it’s a well ended walk and it’s a spiritual walk and it’s a connected walk and it’s so funny each and every time it’s like oh there’s what we needed yeah there’s we need it yeah 100% I I also think success is a moral obligation because like everybody who benefits from your success when you rob yourself you’re robbing them so pushing yourself to the highest level of of success that you could achieve is a moral obligation um because all those people you’re talking about helping if you are not successful you can’t help one and so recognizing that you know if you want to rest today that’s all good but if it Rob somebody else rethink that yeah yeah I wish people would talk more about that it’s like I I actually need to be upright a strong Foundation maybe I jumped in cold water this morning maybe I didn’t if that’s your thing you know there’s these certain level of showing up for others um that requires us to show up for ourselves yes if I will let myself down I will let you down I love yeah absolutely like if you’re if you’re gonna no call no show yeah we I go back to the the whole thing like uh you know I didn’t used to push my card in at the store yeah and that said something about me and ever since I pushed my card in things have begun to change a little bit Yeah but I love that and and and in that way you’re able to go to work and show up for people and hold the space that’s says like you’re not broken yeah and if you feel like you are we can heal together and it’s it’s this it’s this exuding of energy it’s beautiful absolutely you know uh think about looking in a mirror right when the mirror cracks you’re looking at this cracked image but you happen to believe that’s yourself instead of realizing the original image isn’t crack it’s the reflection you’re looking in and you have to help people return back to the original image and see that they’re whole that they’ve never been broken it was it was the surface we looking at it’s so cool you know we think we grow up and it’s like you do this too much and you’re this and it’s no I’ve had I’ve had I have two boys eight and nine years old I watched those boys be born you cannot tell me for a moment and I would argue with parents that would argue with this who had been there for this experience to say that if that’s not wholeness imperfection what is and so it’s getting back to who you originally are like you’re not broken you’re whole and you’re perfect it’s your essential nature to quote my friend TJ Woodward in the conscious recovery approach so I love that you speak to that so clearly because people feel that and and then it’s like a settling and a potential trust and a relational opportunity whereas like if I’m fixed and you’re broken like I can’t do that know so I always wrap up the show and I know you’ve said it in in a few different ways but what is twoo question twofold what is your why and if you could have your greatest dream come true with respect to serving humans in the next 10 years what would that be and why so you’re why in your dream I think my [Music] why is understanding that people are sitting in some of the most vulnerable times in their life and they’re waiting for somebody to reach in and say say I’m here for you and I’ll help you whether you have money whether you don’t um whether you’re you think you’re ready or whether you’re not I’ll sit with you and I’ll walk back into life with you even when you’re sitting on the edge of death without being scared and uh I think the truth is we all sat there at some point in our own lives and someone did that for us and so I feel such an obligation to turn around and do that for as many people as I can for as long as I live because without somebody doing that for me I wouldn’t be here today so that’s my why and then my dream it’s hard because you know I talk to my team a lot about money because everybody has their own money story and money issue and each dollar we talk about when we set Revenue polls is about the food we could pay for for a family on Medicaid when a kid has an eating disorder each or as a parent we get to help heal who would have to either you know take out a loan or never can’t even take out a loan or you know just they’re trying so desperately hard and having to make horrible decisions um in order to help their family or themselves and so each dollar is talked about in in a very humanized way and where that money would go and what we would do and so my big goal is to get to a $50 million company because providing jobs is my first philanthropy helping other people was the secondary and so I can imagine with 50 million dollars of Revenue what good that could do to change just a corner of the world and if everybody thought that way what their business could do in creating the difference we all say we want that’s huge and people might think that’s a long but I I tend to think that you’re going to be a hundred million doll company because thank you absolutely and and I’m not just like blowing that out there like I’ve seen people um with half of your passion and half of your story and insight and connectivity and boots on the ground produce something that is just so great um I’m so grateful to be connected with you your story your mission your vision um how can the viewers find you um Amanda Copeland Copeland consulting.com correct yeah kopli n consulting.com and you can check it out on there she’s got a beautiful video on there like exactly and she basically said the same thing in the video she just said here um was really well stated thank you so much for coming on the show thank you so much for sharing your servant heart with the world and really really just changing the world one day at a time it’s an honor and a privilege to be with you today my friend I feel the same way thanks for having this conversation with me thank you so much until next time everybody peace [Music]
you

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Episode 134From Stigma to Support: Managing Tough Conversations with Dr. John NarineWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/cB90K-LryJEListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Chris welcomes Dr. John Narine, founder of Recovery Friendly Leader, to the studio to engage in a necessary conversation surrounding recovery in the workplace. Dr. John and Recovery Friendly Leader strive to destigmatize the notion of addiction in the workplace and encourage restructuring leadership and support systems for an all-around healthy organization. From looking into some problematic gaps within companies’ systems to how to manage the complex and emotional conversations within a workplace, John and Chris light up the room in this episode, opening the floor to a discussion many are unaware of. For more information on Dr. John Narine or Recovery Friendly Leader, check out Recoveryfriendlyleader.org. Please note: In this episode, we refer to Recovery Friendly Leader as ‘Recovery First Leaders’; however, we are only speaking on Recovery Friendly Leader with the help of Dr. John Narine.

Talking Points1. Introduction to Dr. John Narine (0:20) 2. John’s story (2:05) 3. Recovery Friendly Leader (5:20) 4. Implementing RFL in organizations (7:45) 5. “Stigma” (10:17) 6. Gaps within HR & internal policies (11:50) 7. Perspectives and fears (15:05) 8. Impacts of the pandemic (17:05) 9. Authenticity (19:49) 10. Internal relationships (21:00) 11. Leading Workplace Addiction (22:20) 12. John’s professional dream (26:20) 13. Recoveryfriendlyleader.org (28:25) 14. Final thoughts (29:43) Quotes

“My recovery people? They are the most productive people I’ve ever met. They are the most extraordinary individuals on this earth when supported correctly. Seen, valued, heard”.– Chris Burns, Founder & CEO

Episode Transcripts

Episode -134- Transcripts[Music] hey everybody and welcome to another amazing exciting and enthusiastic episode of Finding Peaks Yours Truly Chris Burns president and founder chief executive officers here at Peaks recovery centers I am so grateful today to be joined by John nen president founder recovery first leaders before we get into recovery first leaders which is very very catchy we’re going to be talking about um a multitude of things he’s also an author of leading workplace addiction so grateful to have Dr John um naren here today Dr John how are you doing today sir pretty good thank you awesome man thanks for hanging out with me today we’ve had a great time getting to know each other we just got done touring trail head up at Peaks recovery centers checking in with none other than Chef Sandra got the lowdown on the culture and The Culinary setting there at Peak so grateful to have you here today sir thank you for joining us thank you thank you for having me and thank you for your hospitality and showing me around and um it was great to see your staff and how well they they love seeing you yeah it was pretty cool and how they remind me when they haven’t seen you she was like where have you been I missed you yeah I I love being seen there and it’s it’s one of those environments that we were talking about earlier where you know it was kind of forged in fire a decade ago kind of behind this Theodore Roosevelt quote that says nobody cares what you know until they know that you care and so I’m so grateful when we can take people into the facility and you get to kind of experience that energy uh firsthand and I know it’s near and dear to your heart with what you do and what you’ve set up with you and your team and so can’t wait to get into some of that um so so grateful to have you on today as we sit here today maybe you can allow the viewers a little bit of insight into kind of your personal and professional story like how did we get here how did you um become to have so much passion not only for the professional recovery um Workforce situation that you have going on but your personal side as well sure yeah you know I didn’t get H by choice and wasn’t my plan I’ll put it that way yeah it was not but when it was put before me it it just it was something I just felt like I was called to do and today I can’t imagine my life without you know I I personally recovery myself suffered from addiction first to alcohol then it was to other drugs and finally my last Vice meth which really took me downhill really fast MH and when I was sober I was a really high function employee like I was the guy getting noticed and turning things ahead of time and doing more than what you’re paying me to do and that you know was um just my pattern when I was sober but when I wasn’t it was the complete opposite I wouldn’t show up I didn’t turn things in when I said I was going to and I just became really unreliable cost companies a lot of money you know I hurt teams that I was supposed to manage and be there for so when I was thinking about how do I ask for help this was the issue at the time I didn’t really have a family that I had a family but I didn’t know how to go to them and and tell them what was going on be scary I have friends but I didn’t know how to go to them or say anything I was kind of you know dipping my toes into recovery programs 12ep non1 12ep but didn’t use it for what they suggested using it for so work became my family MH impressing my boss uh making the my co-workers happy that was my family so to think about how do I actually tell them and disappoint them and become the black sheep and and and who knows what may happen that was the struggle how do I ask for help and keep my job so because of that I just chose to stay quiet yeah and I end up losing both wow yeah and that could be like I mean you just bring up such a good topic with respect to just not feeling safe to explain and introduce who and what I am and where I’m at in the workplace I saw it so often in my early career you know house managers would come in it’s like it was the best job I ever had when I got here making 10 bucks an hour my sobriety my job is dependent on my sobriety mhm this is a protected situation these are people struggling with mental health issues with no Outlets or reprieve or connections to go to in the workplace I really love I hate that you had to walk through it but I love that you saw it clearly as an opportunity to say hey I think there’s something here that we can insert and just do a bit differently for these folks to feel safe and have an opportunity because I’ve been telling people for years like my recovery people are the most productive people I’ve ever met they’re the most extraordinary human beings on planet Earth when supported correctly right seen valued heard which rfl kind of takes a pretty big aim at in the professional Community yeah maybe you can talk a little bit with the viewers about rfl recovery friendly leaders I love the name yeah love the name yeah so there’s a movement Nationwide called recovery friendly workplace uh it started a couple years ago in in New Hampshire and the government has noticed it wants many states to do this initiative and Colorado great I’m very grateful for this has legislation now that has that that that puts this recovery fundly workplace initiative in the state where workplaces can get policies they can figure out how to work with someone to have the culture and the resources that protect and support employees in recovery and keep the workplace safe so recovery friendly leader was a play off that name because you know we work in collaboration with them in fact our uh logo Circle and tri triangle a lot of debate went to how do we show this servant leader recovery friendly leader and those are the symbols that kind look like a button up like it’s the person right it’s the leader the upside down triangle for the servant leader and then just the recovery symbol of the triangle and the circle so it all just fits fits well together but what we do is now that a workplace says that they can support employees right we go and we show the managers exactly what that looks like I worked in a place like that where we had policies we had mental health days that we could take no reason needed we had FMLA and and an EAP we have everything people first culture but when I came forward and asked for help no one knew what to do because no one had training so figuring out along the way we were all doing that together and it may might have looked differently I can bet in my life it would have looked differently if there was some training involved on both of us know both of us yeah it could be it can be you know some of the most resourced HR departments you know I can be up on campus and some of the biggest fears for professionals up on campus is like did you guys fill out my FMLA am I going to have my job in I mean these are prime Primal issues right we trying to settle into grief week I’m trying to get some work done here and I don’t know if I’m going to be supported and to your point in HR departments that are far more resource than most that we come across in behavioral health or any other sort of profession and we just miss the opport opportunity for some of those connected tissue conversations trainings and opportunities um in those professional settings yeah you know yeah what has been some of the the like really interesting on like when you go into facilities and they contract with you and you go through the workbook what are you seeing some of the biggest kind of like aha moments for people within that professional setting like I can’t believe I miss that or or whatever it might be yeah it I just did a training um maybe two months ago and it was a introductory it was our pilot training okay it’s introduction to substitutes addiction and Recovery in the workplace and it was breaking things down in a very digestible chunks and and level so most of the people in there were in HR and they were not in the recovery field which is beautiful because that’s the people we’re trying to reach right the people that don’t know this and substance use right I I start with what is a substance so breaking out the dictionary and it’s a thing made up of uh it’s it’s a chemical makeup of of a thing basically so this book this this straw right there’s a chemical makeup to it so now when we bring that idea into the workplace we talk about substance use right then we’re talking about what drugs and alcohol that can include Tylenol but breaking it even further we’re looking at problematic substance use here so what is the the substances that are causing problems to the work and what does that look like then all of a sudden it’s no longer oh they have substance use disorder we don’t know what that’s like it’s unrelatable this is okay this could show up at as a one-time incident or it can progress into a compulsive addictive nature I used to go out with plenty of managers who did not have any disorder we all called off the following day right but they don’t have disorder right they but could they benefit from maybe a conversation when you don’t show up this is how it affects the workplace right when you don’t uh when you come in late or you’re H over this is how it affects the workplace the point is to increase relatability and I had a HR professional reach out to me and said thank you now I understand a little more of how this actually looks like and what this means yeah you’re almost introducing them to their position within the story everybody engages with substance guys right some do it more problematic than others some have more intensity seasons of life and form that but let’s let’s be clear they can leave that first training that first pilot training going I think I might have struggled with a substance a time or two right you know and the compassion and empathy and ah connectedness you know because we talk about stigma all the time it’s a it’s it’s a word that there’s so many trainings on and there’s so many techniques but for me it’s if I’m going to destigmatize something and try to bring in understanding relatability is one of the fastest way for me to get there right if I can relate I can understand much better and empathize much better so that is kind of the intention behind how we go about this everything’s about collaboration how we work together yeah yeah yeah that’s really cool I love the education first thing because we were talking a little bit earlier about um when we were getting zoned for Peaks recovery and all kind of the riger Roll we had to go through and the intensity in the community and you were like why wouldn’t they want this resource here and I was like yeah but I I think sometimes when people don’t understand and they’re not educated they don’t understand something they judge it and a lot of times that world view can be a little bit disconnected from the reality and so I love that we’re starting with education that is such a huge thing because in that education piece I think there’s so much connection and when you get that connection in my experience you got the influence when you have the influence we’re recovery friendly leaders yes I know you’ve touched on it a little bit um but what are some of like the bigger gaps you’ve seen within you know HR departments policies and procedures is it just absent entirely with respect to um insight into mental health and Recovery in the HR department and FMLA or what are some of the biggest gaps you’re seeing um that we can begin to fill through resources like recovery friendly leaders and Recovery friendly workplaces sure um you know I I was speaking to the construction Association a few weeks ago and they the people in this particular meeting all are advocates for mental health in their workplaces I mean in the industry there’s tons of suicide and overdose and it’s it’s pretty intense right now so the one struggle they had is how do we get our leadership open to this they they love the word mental health right but we as soon as we get to substance recovery then it’s like don’t talk about it and it’s it’s so that’s where we start right we start with where they’re at so in any industry that’s what we’re trying to do when it comes to the healthare field this one baffles me a lot specifically in the peer recovery space because your bosses are people with lived experience MH and when I took a poll and asked would you feel comfortable telling your boss if you were struggling that day I heard a lot of nose and I was floored because who better to understand but I need to be seen as capable I might be pulled off right if I have a a license that might get it’s the fear of that might get um a violation or or I might lose that and you know nurses doctors they all fall under the same fear of speaking out and what we talk about in our training is I didn’t learn to be in recovery by keeping it silent with the expectation to stay sober yeah right cuz that’s what you’re saying yeah right without saying it that’s not what I learned so if I can release a thought or a craving by speaking it so that I can be capable and able well why why can’t I do that yeah what unfair predicament is this field placing me in you know and it’s all about health at the same time so each industry is having their specific nuances and I’m I’m learning more along the way you know as I talk to more companies and and get out there that’s so interesting you bring up such a a unique point is to say that like even in our substance use treatment programs and our behavioral health networks um in our healthc care settings where it’s top of mind the second we start mentioning substance use people like oh I think I have to have two years to do this job or I have to you know if you’re a client care Aid you know you’re sharing experience strength and hope and a lot of time that experience strength and hope feels very much waged on is my sobriety intact and is it safe to be honest because we know that honesty is the key and so I love that you’re talking about this and I’ll even speak to it in early Peaks is where I can see you know we’ve been around 10 and a half years now you know the first half of Peaks I would imagine that people didn’t feel safe coming forward and saying hey I had a bad Wednesday I’m hopeful that we’re moving in that direction because we treat it Peaks we’re just we treat suffering all in the same thing and we’re all here together and we get professionals from Idaho and post office workers from New York and young women from Nebraska and you know all points in between um and I feel very privileged to do that but I love what you’re doing here because you’re providing what I can see very clearly it’s just a Missing Link in the chain yeah you know the other two big things that I’ve seen along the way is people think I’m I’m hearing this perception again without them saying it but for example we’re going to lose our federal funding if we do this yeah so that to me tells me you think you’re hiring and employing people actively using and going to enable that or accept that as the behavior in in or the conduct in the workplace and that’s not what this is so that’s another challenge is changing that perception another one is um you know we don’t do a lot of Nan but I’ve heard we can’t have Naran because uh we can’t condone people using right right so it’s just there’s a lot of just it’s a lot of P perspectives that have to be switched on what this work is and the tools that we’re trying to to give you you know a lot of the stuff is already in I I talked you about this right I believe the skills are there we’re going to help reveal them right and how to apply them towards people in recovery yeah I love that just kind of reframing for people and reorienting people it’s a bit of like cognitive behavioral therapy right you know but it is it is so inciteful when you can educate people get them to see clearly their spot in the story I go back to my personal recovery all the time it’s like when when they placed me when they placed my story within theirs I was like let’s go right cuz I could feel that that and it was connected and there was something about it that made me feel a part of and we could walk with and so I don’t think even though it feels like a heavy lift in Corporate America I don’t think we’re too far away I think people are feeling this distress people are feeling this disconnection employer groups are feeling some of their strongest leaders and employees for whatever reason here today and gone tomorrow without really an answer as to why M and I think your company and and the way that you guys are moving into Community really speaks to that in a very clear way yeah so it’s really really awesome yeah thank you very much I’d say like after the pandemic is when I think more companies are starting to be more open to this you know alcohol was an essential and Co revealed a lot to us about how people cope whether they had a disorder or not yeah right um and it’s become a need mhm yeah since the pandemic yeah it really is it’s I love that you bring that up too cuz it I remember sitting with people in the pandemic being like oh this is amazing we’re all in this place together in this recovery environment there’s no cars in the road as as bad as the pandemic was and we lost more people um than we should have I think it really provided it it kind of lifted the bottom up for a lot of us and provided an opportunity for us to see each other clearly in an environment that was pretty disconnected and so I always thought to myself how lucky we were to be in recovery and in recovery community when we were walking through that I mean how cool yeah you know yeah so I got sober in the pandemic oh really yeah wow so I mean it’s I didn’t have the experience prior the way I did do now to the connectedness of being in person and being able to give somebody a hug cuz yeah I love giving hugs yeah I I I was hugging your staff you I love it and you know um that really tore a lot of people up because that’s that physical connection is is just so special so it’s funny because at the workplace I used to live in Florida so the way we used to say hello at work was handshake and a kiss on the cheek oh cool so when I moved to Colorado I said hello the way I knew how yeah HR had to talk to me after that in like hey man this a safe workplace but I didn’t know right I love it yeah but um just that physical touch and and you know the int intimacy that comes with that for connection is is really important I think yeah I forgot how much I I missed that in the pandemic and I was actually at a conference in um California where were we Beverly Hills or something or rather okay and it was an emergence conference with TJ Woodward and TJ Woodward put on the conference and it was really really cool and one of the really really unique and dynamic things about it were that nobody could read off of slides we all had to be together connected in this place and they did a ton of Psycho Drama um within the conference which is really atypical than like a treatment conference but it was all about Community it was all about connection it was all about intimacy it was all about relationship um and quite frankly it was the coolest conference I’ve ever been to yeah I mean just really really cool just talk about authenticity and that was something when we first checked in um and then even when we checked in before the show it was like that’s something that strikes me about you as a president and the leader of this organization is this authentic piece that you bring forward that you really want to just share with people in a really really cool way and I love today how you’ve been so honest and open and clear with the viewers because I think sometimes people misread addiction and misread alcoholism and they say there’s no way this guy could have struggled with that right and I just love that people like you professionals like yourself and humans in recovery and come into a place like this and share openly with the world that yeah I am that and I also walked through this MH and it’s fortified and forged in this environment through recovery leaders and I want to share that with the world I think it’s a really beautiful thing man um and I am honored to be able to sit here with you today um and share this with the viewers so before we go I want to talk about I got my own copy today you know and um really looking forward to getting into this but maybe we can talk a little bit about why you wrote this book what people can expect and then what that is over there sure um before I get into that I want to talk to you about the relationship piece that you just mentioned if I may absolutely yeah that’s a huge piece to our training right how managers can have that relationship with the employee any employee right just like you would any you get to know their personality their characteristics you form that bond with them we want everyone to have that camer and team work team building like you know environment where they feel like they belong the research that went behind that book goes into basic needs of a human and basic needs of someone in recovery and an employee and they all align and one of those basic needs are is the need to belong right so when we I hear it all the time the opposite of addiction is connection right so when we fulfill that one need in the workplace and that might look like um soliciting someone opinion on a project or inviting them to a meeting personally right just that extra step because we get into the how mhm right we get into the how how to really make that employee feel that they’re valued for who they are that we intentionally want to work with you despite the fact that you’re in recovery or not whatever your status is and that we love you right we care about you and your wellbeing yeah so that book that book really was it started out as my dissertation in school see when I wasn’t sober I wasn’t passing this one class I needed to actually get to the dissertation phase and I got sober and all of a sudden I passed yeah with fly colors I’m sure who would have thought right it was a great paper yeah yeah so when it came time to study a problem I the only thing that really spoke to me was how do other managers do this how do they help someone like me and keep their business operational and luckily during the pandemic I was able to find people who had this experience of helping an employee who gave them the same suggestions that would offer to me same exact things but it was the how see when EIP was offered to me I said Thank you and I hung up because I don’t know what you’re going to share with with my HR or my manager I’m afraid to ask you because of what you may think for me about me asking I’m not going to look it up I whatever right but they were taking the extra step to Hey listen when you go there everything’s confidential we won’t know what you talked about with your cancor we just want you to get better right and employees were doing the suggestions and and they were forming this trust with their manager they were willing to follow their guidance they were willing to talk about small issues because they became bigger problems and that’s the relationship that was starting to get built right and those are the relationships we want to see in more workplaces yeah because we want just want to make make sure the opportunity to recover always exists through the efforts of the leaders right to make sure that opportunity is there that the barriers are broken down that accessibility is Equitable amongst everyone yeah we want the employee to feel comfortable taking advantage of that yeah that’s a huge deal yeah I mean there’s a difference between a policy that says I’m allowed to leave work on time yeah but when I do that the one who stays later gets the promotion of course right right so yeah the policy may say something but how do I show you it’s okay that’s what we try to bring in how do you inform that and you you brought up such a beautiful point and I think sometimes in business we get into this like well we don’t want a family but you talk about something much different it’s more of a community feel and being a part of something and feeling important within that ecosystem back to our Point seeing valued and heard mhm I can speak for myself when I’ve been in professional settings when I’m seen valued and heard and I can speak to when I’m not and the differences are insane MH so I love what you’re doing to fortify this opportunity because I’m sure you’ve done the cost benefit analysis with onboarding employees and discharging and eaps and HRS and all this stuff and um I’m sure it’s very costeffective opportunity for people to engage with in one of which like from an employee handbook or like a package perspective yeah if I’m reading through that I’m like oh my goodness this is amazing yeah because it says you care and I think that’s what people that are struggling with mental health and substance use issues need to know is they walk through a really difficult issue that it tends to be generally mired in a tremendous amount of Shame so thank you for being a conduit to help pull people and walk with people out of that I have had one question that I always like to ask young entrepreneurs like yourself that are just getting ready to set this world on fire um zoom out or zoom in zoom out zoom in five years from now 10 years from now recovery first leaders if you could have a professional dream come true and one of them what would it be and why professional dream five years from
now you know I’ve had a few people from different states that want to do this training and I have reluctantly said no it was hard I’m going to tell you why I have made no income so far right and it wasn’t about that because it’s it’s about doing this work finally we got a grant right and and they want to license this they want to bring it to their state you know bring it to the association I I got to see this work here first I got to work out the Kings yeah you know before I go and be like hey go use this stuff so I would love to
see particularly the East Coast where I’m from right I’m sure this is everywhere but from my experience certain places and the culture and what that’s like I’m just a number as as long as I can produce that number I’m great right and the mo the one day I don’t buy your history so to bring this into those types of workplaces across states that have that culture you know I would love to see that happen and hopefully the opportunity Still Remains on now that is so cool I tend to believe I bring people on this show you know amazing professionals but even better humans I I I tend to believe you will sell yourself short with that proposition because recovery friendly leaders are here recovery friendly workplaces are alive and well PE it’s top of mind it’s a Hot Topic I think you’re moving into a very very important part just with your personal recovery but professional side of things that is really really needed right now everybody knows there’s a disconnect they just don’t know where and why and I think recovery first leaders uh leading workplace addiction a lot of the energy that you’re creating um is going to speak to that really really Qui really really clearly before we end here how can um the viewers find you how do we get a hold of this information how do we get it in our treatment programs how do we get it in our workplaces website all of that good stuff sure our website is www. recovery friendly leader. org um there’s information about how we got started our history the research that actually went into this um if you’re more interested in the book or wanting to support organization there’s a donate button there in fact Colorado gives Day is coming up and I’m doing a giveaway of a free book anyone who donates $250 or more gets entered into a drawing for that book so I’m pretty excited about that and what’s to come and I love the work that you’re doing too treatment centers are important I’ve been to my fair share and you know FMLA helps with that but you talked about community so I experienced that for 30 60 90 days my longest term was 90 residential right so I have three months of this ongoing Community experience and when I get out of there if I still have my job or I get a new one right and that job supports me then that means that translates and keeps going into the workplace as well see I don’t support you by sending you to treatment because you’re cured and can come back to toxicity that’s not how this works yeah so that is the work we’re doing too so to the important thing I want you to know right or any treatment center out there is when your clients come out and they go back to work hopefully they work somewhere that understands what just happened and what needs to happen moving forward especially at a place where they’re spending a lot if not majority of their waking hours where everything they just learn is going to get tested now at work y right so that support especially from their manager someone who can give that strong guidance that’s what we hope to be able to provide do yeah I love it and when we first met I’ll say it again as I said it then a few weeks ago I I know recovery friendly workplace has been around for a little while but this is the first time in Colorado in my 10 years of being here I’ve heard anything close to this I cannot wait for this to take off like a wildfire recovery friendly leaders Dr John nin thank you sir appreciate you thank you very much all right viewers until next time you know peace

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Episode 133Growing Provider Networks & Strengthening Connections with Breeah KinsellaWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/uc0VYdU-FuwListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Chris welcomes Breeah Kinsella, Executive Director of Colorado Providers Association, to the studio to engage in an open and honest conversation on the importance of a connected provider network and so much more! From getting a glance into the day-to-day operations at COPA to Breeah’s powerful and inspiring “Why,” this episode will surely spark conversation and educate on important topics in today’s world. For more information on Breeah or COPA, check out Coprovidersassociation.org.

Talking Points1. Introduction to Breeah (0:20) 2. Looking into the day-to-day at COPA (1:11 3. Building a connected network of providers (4:55) 4. Leave ego at the door (7:03) 5. Breeah’s journey to working in the industry (8:57) 6. The paths that lead Breeah to COPA (19:50) 7. Recovery 2.0 (30:10) 8. Strength in support (37:28) 9. Breeah’s Why (40:35) 10. Final thoughts (48:10) 11. Coprovidersassociation.org (49:45) Quotes

“Recovery doesn’t stop or start often at treatment. When ego leaves the building, that’s when the real work happens, and that’s true for the people you are serving as well as the people in the organizations”. – Breeah Kinsella, Executive Director COPA

Episode Transcripts

Episode -133- Transcripts[Music] hey everybody and welcome to another exciting and amazing episode of Finding Peaks Yours Truly host president founder chief executive officer Chris Burns so grateful to be here today with an amazing professional but even better human Bria Kella how are you my friend I’m excellent I’m in this beautiful space here with you yeah all my favorite things I love it yeah Bri and I just spent about 35 minutes off off topic talking about a variety of other things of which we’ll get to a few here shortly but really excited to have you on um just an awesome professional and human but um Colorado provider Association that’s who you work for she’s the chief executive officer as well how long have you been with them about three years as of last month cool cool and and what does kind of like the day-to-day look like as the chief executive officer I know on your bio you only had five short things but as we’ve kind of dialogued back and forth uh it’s far more comprehensive than that yeah and now I can’t I can’t remember what’s in my bio but um oh yes now I do now I remember um so day-to-day looks different depending on the season um during the summer and fall I spent a lot of time traveling around the state meeting my members seeing their facilities um sometimes meeting the people that they serve and hearing about uh the great testimonials of work that’s being done across across the state um trying to figure out what their challenges and obstacles are and how we can maybe support fixing those or um removing barriers uh also what else during January through May I spend most of my time at the capital writing legislation working on legislation to support providers and the people that they serve uh it is very intense yeah uh it’s an intense season it’s a very intense season I have a really wonderful lobbying team and a really great staff who support me during that six months to make sure that my members don’t fall through the cracks um also I have four three amazing staff I have six five or six amazing contractors who are doing work in evaluations in the uh certified Pur family specialist credentialing the certified prevention Specialists credentialing uh we our association manager is responsible for networking events big events um campaigning policy information advocacy working with our members if they ever need anything uh our association manager calls us a coner style Association which I think is really fun but really all in all means that I will answer the phone anytime one of my members calls me um even if it’s just a catch up you know uh we really we really value the folks who are a part of Copa um all four of us who work for the STA on as staff for Copa were providers oh cool that is unque so we we are in a position that um we really want to support people that we know are out there working really really hard to save people’s lives actually funny story so um I was speaking with one of our members yesterday um about some fire code regulation that we’re working on for the state in terms of Behavioral Health entity license and I called five different folks and and what I realized is always text people before I call if they are treatment providers I will call directly if they aren’t if they work in prevention if they work in insurance if they work in funding if they’re administrator and not a direct service staff I will call directly if it is a direct service treatment provider staff I will text them and wait until they consent for me to call they need front facing I love that I didn’t realize it until yesterday and going back and forth with one of our members trying to figure out when I could call her and she was like I told you you could call me any time and I was like yeah I’m not going to do it yeah sorry I have this thing it’s apparently a thing so I figured that out yesterday so um essentially you know Copa is just there for whatever our members need all of the time I love it’s really well integrated and it it feels like you you all go into your providers and help inform various treatment modalities tracks strengths weaknesses um and and kind of accumulate data and support them in that regard yep so we don’t actually teach them anything um because we are prevention folks all four of us are prevention folks but we are connect so well connected to the state and the the providers who are at the state like working throughout the state is that we bring in people that we know would benefit the value of our membership love so you know the whole the whole concept of me joining Copa was that the whole Vision was is that they wanted to build a connected network of providers who were there for each other right that was the entire reason that Copo was formed is so providers could be together and learn from each other and share and obviously there are a ton of benefits that come from that outside of just personal professional development but in terms of the quality of access and the quality of care that’s provided um because people are connected to everything across the so the stuff that we don’t know we can bring people in on we sit in lots and lots and lots and lots of meetings um with various groups whether it’s state departments legislators Regional area entities msos whatever and we synthesize the information they give to us and send it out to our members so that they don’t have to sit inside of all of those meetings right right they can go and do the work that they need to do um and we can do that for them and just give them the pieces that will help them understand how to do their work better yeah that’s beautiful I mean really creating Synergy within a provider network is like unheard of where I come from I mean we were talking a little bit about Arizona I came to Colorado I was like oh my gosh they have pure services oh my gosh they have even therapeutic communities opportunities to not go to prison and throw away the and some of them are a little bit hard Edge but some of these resources you’re talking about and this is such a yeah it’s a rad State like for sure and it’s my favorite state whatsoever and if you like Seasons it is the best state um but people work together here yeah it’s it’s to varying degrees but I believe it’s getting better yeah yeah and I love that there’s something like you guys that kind of ties that together because it is when we’re all talking and communicating because it turns out Peaks recovery is not the best program for everybody and we need to know who and what is right and we need to understand that as providers as we can’t be the end all be all and when we can begin to do that we can inform things like we talked about earlier as like a really sophisticated recovery path that could potentially form healing for individuals who need it MH it’s a really cool thing well and the idea that recovery doesn’t stop or start often at treatment right right exactly I like to I like to tell people um when ego leaves the building that’s when the real work happens and that’s true for the people that you’re serving and also for the people who are running the organizations right when we work together when we collaborate when we let when we leave our egos at the door we can work better provide better services manage gaps and care right people don’t fall through the cracks right if we put our ego down and we’re together yeah you know and I know yall say it to your clients I know you do 100 I picked it up listening in the rooms you know so it is something that you know I share on all kinds of different levels yeah it’s almost like a I almost refer to it often as like recovery 2.0 and they’re like what do you mean leveling up yeah exactly right um really really cool you know I I when I when I met with you with our preall and even having the opportunity to sit with you like if I could Define you in one word be fighter oh yeah I mean you are a fighter you can tell that you’re willing to fight passionately for the ones that you serve and so it’s no wonder you’re out in front of this organization that’s doing such Dynamic work in the community in addition you come by it so honestly because you’re from MOS Colorado m m excuse me m Colorado that was in her bio too and I looked it up and I’m like oh man it’s on the edge of the sand wands really cool area and then we got into some like deep conversation about history I was like dang it um but you got to say it like you’re a m like pres Arizona um but in Manus Colorado you come by this honestly because rural Colorado lots of gaps in Services resources are abysmal and so I want to check in a little bit of like you know what kind of got you into the field were you beginning to see gaps in your community or what made you so passionate about that part so I actually got into the field because I’m a prevention specialist I’ve been a prevention provider sorry a prevention provider for decades yeah now um and it actually started because I was in the military okay um well probably even earlier than that so I come from a family that has a long history with substance use disorder um my grandmother was a you know 12 stepper she knew Bill W I’ve been in the rooms my whole life um I have lost many many of my family members to substance disorder um and yeah it was just something that I saw in my rural community that I grew up in in in the Central Valley of California meth was huge in the ’90s ‘ 80s and 90s in in rural California um and I came from a law enforcement family and I thought oh hey I can help I can help this problem I can help people not die if I go and do drug enforcement and so I was in the Coast Guard and I was a drug enforcement officer and uh I you know was a boarding team member and did all kinds of stuff in drug enforcement and immigration that made me feel really uncomfortable and I watched substance use disorder run rampant through the military um and nothing that we nothing that we did from a punitive approach um felt effective to me um I felt like the the strategies that I had been taught that I was currently participating in uh were actually harming people more um so when I got out of the military after eight years um I tried for a very short time to work for anheiser Bush I could I don’t see you doing well there I did not I did not do well um I did not do well and contrary to me joining the military I am not um great with authority as a whole um and you seem like a free thinker yeah Authority is a struggle for me obviously I’ve gotten better at it um because we learned to code um but what I saw in anheiser Bush was people with substance use disorders getting at least one case per month of alcohol free and substance use culture being really embraced so obviously I didn’t last there very long um so I joined Amore I gave up all my money and I joined americore and I started working at americore in in St Louis um if you’re familiar with downtown St Louis schools are underfunded um gang activity is really high um police over policing in black and brown communities is really bad um it’s you know the corruption in St Louis police department is really well known um and this was I was there in the early 2000s oh wow and um ended up doing gang prevention you know it was a it was a reading position like a reading to tutor position that they initially put me in uh but that work led me into um the detention centers into the youth facilities working for with the vision of Youth Services working on debate teams and clubs inside detention centers all of this stuff right and watching the kids that I was working in working with inside of the schools come in and out of the detention centers that I was also volunteering my time in right so the prison to the school to prison pipeline was a brand new like concept and and um we didn’t call it prevention then MH we just did the things that we knew we going to increase protective factors for kids who had really high risk factors right so now when I think about it it’s like oh yeah I was increasing protective factors and decreasing risk factors not knowing that that is the core Foundation of prevention yeah right we’re doing this thing it’s called nothing so this this started in started in um the early 2000s is when I started my career and I got really passionate about it um and I realized that I um really loved the kids that I was working with I’m still connected to some of them today beautiful beautiful young people um and I did not like their parents very much also I was a young white woman in a predominantly black community and did not understand almost everything sure like all I knew was what I saw and how I had been raised and so I didn’t like working with adults but I loved the kids and it was amazing um a couple years into that I lost um a young person to police violence um in my arms and it was really terrible um and my husband and I at the time who was working in homeless services and was AER even though they didn’t have peers then yeah um my husband and I really decided that it was probably best for my youngest daughter and us to leave the state and a part of that was because um I did not feel like or I felt like I was receiving too much positive attention because of how I present instead of who I was and I didn’t feel like I knew enough to be getting the attention that I was getting and so I wanted to take it to a community that melt that felt more aligned um with the power structures that I understood true um I felt like I shouldn’t be there telling everyone that I was an expert when I literally had no idea what I was doing right I was a kid yeah and I you know when I first started I thought I could change the world and As I Grew further and further into the work I realized that that was a really privileged white savior thing that I was doing and I was in the wrong place yeah um and so when we decided to leave uh we obviously moved to rural Colorado which is to much to my surprise a tri-ethnic community but in my mind was wider than where I was right right and so that was a place that uh fit me better and did not take away from the black women specifically who were doing the work in St Louis um and so when I got to St or when I got to Southwest Colorado um I would really I don’t know if you know this about Southwest Colorado but there’s not a lot of jobs yeah yeah exactly two and then drive 50 miles and there’s three so there so there’s not a lot of jobs out there and so for a couple years um I just worked random jobs and really got to know the community right so I worked at a church I was a youth pastor I worked at the train so if you’ve ever been on the Durango silver ton railroad I was the person taking the pictures she’s been in some of the most beautiful areas you can ever imagine so I like at the time I was really um I was really disappointed that I could not find work that was meaningful to me it actually felt really heavy to me that I could not be successfully in my role right um but what I realized is that learning that community and getting to know the people and really in meshing myself in the Durango Shuffle is what it’s called where you you know have four people living with you and you’re working three jobs and you still can’t really make ends me and they double up your your um food stamp money at the farmers market so you can have healthy food stuff you know and bro deals for shoes and whatever right what I learn is all of that stuff really all of that hardship prepared me for what was next M right and so when I ended up taking over celebrating Healthy Communities when I started working at celebrating Healthy Communities which is the last place I was before here yeah I knew what it meant to be a Community member there which was the reason I left St Louis right because in St Louis I was a white person in Social Services coming into a community telling them how to be better and in D in llata County monuma County um that region I was a part of the community working with my community members my neighbors my friends my loved ones to build something that was better for us together together yeah always together right so so that that passion really came from me acknowledging that I was in the wrong place like those kids I love those kids love them love them I’m so glad for my time with them like I loved my time with them and and the women that I worked with were amazing and the the mothers and grandmothers who brought me in and taught me about respect and and fried chicken culture and love and and like learning my place in people’s lives right like I’ll carry those with me forever forever forever but through the hardship times of llata County monuma County I was really doing the thing that I was trying to figure out how to do in St Louis exactly right yep yep so even thinking about all of the hardship right uh I needed those things to be a part of the community yeah because the community is facing hardship and if I don’t face it too how in the heck am I supposed to tell anyone anything yeah you went enlisted I think that’s the best way to go it’s like let’s go sit with the people well and it wasn’t even listening right it was experiencing yeah right you and I talked about earlier um I don’t have a substance use disorder who am I to tell anyone with a substance use disorder what’s for them mhm I’m not and I can listen all day long all day long I can listen to a person talk about having a substance use disorder and what that means to them and I still don’t know what they mean yeah like a at a core level at a core level but when someone talks about being a part of a poor rural or Frontier Community MH I got it yeah it’s so cool like as you’re sitting here describing like the story and the evolution of your career and the people that you’ve impacted and communities you’ve moved into I almost see like somebody going around around doing push-ups in this area H doesn’t feel right go push-ups over here only to get to this spot where you are today which is really really beautiful well- intended and you’re very very passionate about the team that you lead and the position you hold what was it initially about Copa that was like these people got go connected network of providers yeah that was it um so you know I was for almost 10 years I worked uh for celebrating Healthy Communities first as the program manager and then as the um executive director uh and the the whole point of Copa was or I’m sorry of celebrating healthy Community CHC uh was to build a connected network of providers and partners in monuma and llata counties right so from Bayfield ignasio Durango um hesperis M Cortez and Dolores and Dove Creek right like we’re talking the literal Four Corners where it’s, 1600 square miles to drive through llata County with only 50,000 people oh my goodness so the whole point was to build this connected network of people providing services to support at that time young people right but remember I told you like I didn’t like adults when I was working with kids and somewhere along my transition what I realized is that um adults are really struggling adults are really struggling and the kids are in turn struggling harder and if we don’t support the whole unit and we don’t build a community that supports both adults and youth and youth adult Partnerships everyone’s going to struggle right and so that was we had at the time when I started we had 44 partner organizations who worked in Coalition with us on both substance use and suicide prevention but what we know in prevention is that um if you are preventing suicide you are also preventing substance use you’re also preventing teen pregnancy you’re also preventing truancy and violence and and all of these things right and the whole part of celebrating Healthy Communities was to build a community so strong that no matter what happened from the outside we had each other right and we did it and and we did it and it was struggle and we really changed stuff and so when I saw Copa and their application and their vision and their you know job description and all of that stuff first of all randomly I had every skill that they needed yeah which is random because I told you like my day today is wild yeah oh yeah you’re just getting started like it is a random unique set of skills that it takes to run an association most people can’t even wrap their head around what an association does fortified in the pandemic right yeah right because I start yes you’re absolutely right right so the thing is is that I used to work for an association I used to run a training and development department for an association in Texas so I had this unique understanding of what Association boards look like right I was a provider so I knew like what providers needed right they really wanted to diversify they wanted to expand beyond the Front Range right they they wanted Rural and Frontier providers to be at the table I just happen to be a rural and Frontier provider right they wanted to see an increase in diversity across uh racial and like economic lines right they wanted small providers they wanted big providers they wanted black brown indigenous providers they wanted queer providers right they wanted a really diverse robust group of providers because we can’t create solid accessible Equitable provision of services if the people providing the services don’t fit right in that right and I just happened to be working in anti-racism like providing for decades yeah right I I come from this framework right I am connected to all of these and it was so funny when I came for my interview so I had a phone a zoom interview right cuz we’re on the tail end of we’re in the tail end of Co right and so I’m zooming from my little house in Manus while my parents are hanging siding on my little tiny house right and I’m bual I’m doing my little Zoom meeting and um it was really great and then they called me back and said hey would you mind coming here in like two days right so if yall don’t know Manus is like eight hours from Denver and um luckily my mom and dad were there and they were like yeah we’ll watch the kid go one two three go and so I get up here and I remember talking to um my my um program assistant at the time who’s now my Association manager and I said um I’m I’m 99% sure that they’re going to love me um but what’s going to be the funniest is that if I know someone in there who’s interviewing because I told them how connected I am at this stage Oh Be Wild like across the state right so I walk in to this interview View and um there are two people on the screen and four people in the room and I look up at the screen and there’s Tanya Wheeler and if you’re in recovery you know who Tanya Wheeler is right and I also knew Tanya Wheeler because Tanya Wheeler was a part of a coalition that I was on to reduce opioid use in Southwest Colorado and so I walk in I’m like hey Tanya Bri and so I left and I texted Sydney and I was like yep Tanya was in the car oh my goodness and so that idea that a connected network of providers started in that room that day because I was already connected that’s cool and and and that to me that was it yeah right I was like this is how I know I’m in the right place yeah in the fact that like it’s it’s such like an oblong like like the the the the job description you know and what it entails hey we need you to like actually have been in all corners of Colorado and actually know how to run a budget and grow funding and diversify funds and run programs too and I’m like yeah I can do all prior to that you’re like gosh what should I do it’s like oh my goodness CU I’m great at this and I do this that is so cool how that all came together and it goes back to that thing that I was talking about in terms of you know I was sitting in these spaces where I didn’t think I was doing anything that was valuable based on what I wanted to be doing right I was running a health center I was running um photographs and trains and youth groups and all this stuff and all of those things led to having the skills that I needed to run Copa yeah and also the staff because um my certification manager was my program assistant 8 years ago oh wow my Association manager was my program assistant three years ago I was calling her from her desk in my old office as I was driving here so she’s been with me for four years right
rural prevention providers that’s it that’s it yeah yeah we just connect connect connect yeah synergizing Colorado yeah Bria kinla let’s go that is so cool man I couldn’t listen I couldn’t do it without the providers obviously we currently have 50 members wow and growing every day um and while each organization has one vote on our board we represent their entire organizations that’s cool right like I represent hundreds of people in the state yeah you know I take calls from hundreds of people you kind of have to be in Denver kind of kind of it’s still it’s still questionable it’s still questionable um you know I still have my house at makus my daughter graduates in a year and a half she’s still down there yeah she’s no no she’s here yeah um but yeah one of the reasons that we moved here was so that she could go to a better school cuz M high school has 50 students in her graduating class I had in Sedona Red Rock yeah yeah wow yeah it’s pretty rural out there yeah it’s very yeah Frontier think it is Frontier so so yeah so she wanted to change and I you know um because I worked in suicide prevention um we suffered a lot of loss in our community and and we did a lot of work with families who suffered loss and were struggling um and without the services that we needed to to Really support that the prevention people are really all you got right so if you don’t have therapists who don’t take Medicaid or therapists who don’t take Indigent care um funds or you don’t have a treatment facility or um even Outpatient Treatment right or you have one that doesn’t have enough space for everyone who needs it 12 seats what ends up yeah what ends up happening is that the prevention folks and when I started there weren’t very many but there are more now recovery folks have to step in to those positions where a clinician should be stepping in yeah um and which is fine right because I believe in next best thing I believe in community but you know any clinician any peer any person working in a helping industry will tell you that secondary trauma is real especially when secondary trauma is directly tied to death and violence and so you know my daughter asked if if she could come here to go to a better school and I was really tired we had had a situation happen in M where one of my people passed away and the other one it was a murder suicide situation um teenagers at the high school next door to my house um that was the last real uh that was the last program I really ran was the the response to that situation and so when my daughter asked hey can we can we go I said yep check out a different scene yeah it’s time at least for the season yeah yeah that makes total sense but I still I still support and represent the people I left behind there yeah I know I know you wouldn’t leave there without doing yeah absolutely that’s why I still hear you like I still got a house there so we’ll see I don’t know see how the season turns no those are my people that’s cool you can tell I I love uh I love how you fight passionately for the people that you serve personally and professionally really really cool and something that’s came up that’s kind of off off topic we’ve talked about it and I think it it’d be cool for the viewers to get kind of your explanation on it we talked about it earlier before the show we kind of referred to it I referred to it as recovery 2.0 yeah I think it’s it’s really cool for people to to understand you know when we’re getting into recovery it’s it’s not about substances it’s not necessarily about the depression it’s it’s about this multifaceted approach that takes a lot of underpinnings to inform quality of life yeah and so maybe you can paint for the viewers a little bit like how do you help folks in community get on that path towards their success and CU When I got into recovery I swear 22 I was like if I just quit doing heroin life is going to be perfect cuz it causes all my a little bit helpful yeah it definitely helps the risk factors go down can be yeah struggle back then it was the oxycotton stuff right so same thing but yeah yeah so how do we how do we get into that recovery 2.0 why is it so important for people to know about that process you know that’s a really good question actually and I know that I was supposed to prepare for that but um it’s off the list it is it is off the list um I you know it’s a really good question because there is no starting point yeah yeah right because if I could magically like shake my wand and and change the landscape of the world that we live in then this would be so much easier right I’d be like everyone has everything that they need and there are no risk factors by which you have to live and no trauma um everybody has food to eat right you have food you have housing your parents aren’t stressed like you understand the risks of substances in your life right like all if I could right that’s I mean that’s really how you fix it right um um so since in in in not being able to do that I think the start of it is just understanding where people are coming from right and not the I’ve been there I’ve integrated I’m also living this life although that is really helpful it turns out yeah um actually I was teasing about something that was happening in Manus the other day and a person that that doesn’t like me very much came on and was like well you don’t understand cuz you don’t live here anymore I was like yeah all right good luck with that that’s right but so outside that really does help integrating in the world right and not just I’m the Savior come in to tell you what the science says and how you’re going to fix it but actually understanding it but really being able to understand that people are really meeting us in um places that we might not understand right and and that’s okay yeah right um that’s okay and that’s okay yeah it’s okay that I don’t understand what it means to have a substance use disorder that does not mean that there are people with substance use disorders who do not ask me questions all of the time absolutely all of the time right um and in that what it does is it builds a relationship it is not a therapeutic relationship although there might be therapeutic outcomes that come from it it is not a professional relationship it is not it is a relationship and I think that that one thing is the key and the way that we look at relationships and the way that we intention relationships and the way that we intersect our relationships right so we did a lot a lot a lot of work in Southwest Colorado around youth adult Partnerships because what we saw was that our kids were dying at alarming rates through suicide and substance use um and their biggest complaint when surveyed repeatedly was that they felt like the adults didn’t care about them yeah 76% of young people felt like kids didn’t care about them on the flip side because remember I told you about how I hated parents and then I figured out that like parents were actually really struggling too on the flip side we surveyed the parents and the parents 74% of the parents said that they valued and tried to show their young people that they were valued so we saw a very opposite yeah response and what we figured and what we thought about and what we researched was that adults thought they were acting in a way that was valuing people valuing young people but the young people weren’t receiving it right because they wanted a different kind of care and so what we ended up doing was involving the whole community in youth adult Partnerships we trained them what it was we taught young people how to work with adults we taught old young older people how to work with young people we taught the community the cities the counties how to build um youth focused events inside of the drinking culture events that were happening like we worked with the newspapers who were saying wild wildly uh inappropriate things about young people and suicide and and all of this stuff so we taught the community how to have relationships with each other that’s cool and I I absolutely believe that that is how you start doing recovery 2.0 to be honest it’s what I do with Copa members too right where you might not know that provider who’s out in L hun right but I hear him say something and it reminds me a lot of you and so I’m going to be like hey Chris you should meet this guy right so it’s also something I do here right that is called Community organizing what I did at celebrating Healthy Communities was Community organizing but really all it is is facilitating relationship building yeah meet him meet her meet this person meet this conect here this exciting new thing I learned you guys should talk about it yeah we should talk about how to implement this does this work for you right so if you start at relationship not I’m here to save you not I know more than you not anything just hey let’s sit in a room and talk about hiking right right um and then you start to trust me and I start to trust you we did it we built a community right here in this room it’s a beautiful thing and I love that you hit on that because when I got into recovery I was isolated disconnected and all alone and I told myself a story that I wasn’t valuable enough sure to be a part of because of the 74% study that you talked about I didn’t feel like I was shown that I didn’t feel like the child adult relationships that I had and formed that so I love that you said that because we’re when one becomes two we become stronger and I love the opportunity in recovery to Simply split our hardships and our victories 50/50 yeah it’s one of the coolest and most simple things to be a part of and you do it so well like your your story of impact is like a lion like going around just be like oh see no need here and just keep moving keep moving and helping people and like leading the charge and now you got more lions and lionesses and people and now it’s fortified and you tell a really beautiful story that I do want to I do want to caution this because you know while I do feel like a lion sometimes um truly I do um and like tearing out necks of people who come for my people kind of right I do feel like that sometimes but I do want to be really clear that precious Sydney Katie my staff um Carry Me often I love that often and and um I myself have a very connected network of people support me um and hold me accountable uh and let me lose my [ __ ] sometimes right um and a and a perfect example of this because I do want to make sure that I feel like an actual human being and not this like wild Warrior woman um is that um you know something happened in session this year last year uh that I knew was going to uh lead to people’s death and I knew it was going to f and or I knew it was going to pass and I knew that there was nothing I could do about it and I got home at 3:00 in the morning and my kid had left my house a mess and my dog had gotten into the trash and I took the trash can and I threw it at the dog and I screamed at the kid and and all of that stuff and then I called my friend who’s also an executive director of a program that he is very passionate about and I said um I’m broken I can’t do this and he was like that’s okay got you that’s okay so lion yes human also yeah yeah so that’s really important right like I really feel I worry that people like think that I’m this Warrior who is never ending um it I feel like it it leads to a perception that you have to be perfect to do what I doh um yeah I think for me your story really speaks to the multitude of interactions relationships and connections that You’ been so so privileged and so grateful to come upon in your career and it is so like like I I was saying the other day on my Instagram I was like my headstone will read I was lucky enough to be surrounded with great people like just great people like who am I I look to my right of my left just like you and I’m like holy smokes this is cool so I love that you said that I really do and um one of the things I want to get to and it’s it’s actually my favorite question to ask people because it it tends to be the most personal CU it always starts there before it goes professional um and passionately professional in a lot of directions and so I wanted to wrap up today’s show was just asking you you know you’ve obviously shown for the viewers today that you have a lot of passion a lot of compassion empathy Insight connectedness within our communities our Behavioral Health Systems and our provider networks um but you tell a really formidable story that kind of pushed you in this direction certainly where you sit today in the people that you get to help and so I just wanted to ask you what what is your why why do you continue to do this I love this question um precious our credentialing manager she asks this question and kind of forces us to focus on that often when things seem like a lot um so you know I told you I I work with a lot of young people um who I loved a lot and really kind of push me in this direction um but I was feeling like I was kind of um stagnant in Durango working for the and the hospital or the college and stuff and um in 2011 my husband who had been um in recovery for nine years went back out returned to use and um he rapidly went from drinking to someone else’s pills to um you know me searching for him under beds every single day um and by may he had died but suicide because of his substance use um he was in liver failure um he I found him in a basement um feeling just about that low in his shame um and my daughter at the time was three three and a half um and he died on Easter and uh my my little baby said um you know you should have helped him more and of course you know she couldn’t see that I was crawling in through his you know um kitchen window on The Daily right like begging him to stop drinking and um Waiting for God to come and fix it um and there was this moment that I remember after he died because it was a very hellacious six months with him um he he deteriorated very quickly and and he went from a person who was running homeless Services as a peer um working through Hurricane Katrina and all of the refugees that came through from her like he was amaz making national news about this work that he was doing to you know hiding under the bed covering himself with the sleeping bag because he was afraid that I would find him he was so ashamed and he he felt so much shame and and I went back and forth between like I’m going to murder you if you don’t get yourself together to begging and pleading that he please come help me with his daughter right but I remember one moment very very clearly where um my friends and I walked into his house and he was passed out on the floor um and he was definitely overdosing uh and before we called the police we were like or before we called the hospital we considered picking his body up putting it in the driver’s seat of his car and turning it on and calling about an impaired driver so that he would go to prison because he had been to prison before he had a felony for substance use um and they would send him back back because of that you know was 2012 it was the wild time the Wild Wild West um and we really really considered because we knew what was going to happen they were going to come pick him up they were going to pump his stomach they were going to get him right and then they were going to discharge him because there was nowhere else for him to go yeah there were no Services there were no like therapy was so expensive um the Community Mental Health Center that we had at the time didn’t have space to see him they were the last people to talk to him treatments thousands of dollars treatment a thousand of dollars I actually looked and looked and looked all over the state to try and find um a treatment facility for him because I knew he needed treatment like I knew enough about Behavioral Health right I studied social work and for my Master’s Degree and and I knew enough about knowing what he needed but the only thing I could find that we could afford to pay for because remember I was like working as a part-time healthc care assistant and a youth pastor I had no money none um and I found a place for him in Fort Collins that was run by the church that we had left in St Louis and they agreed to pay for him to go there um I didn’t know that steep Denver existed at the time I would have sent him there immediately but one of the things I remember when I was going through all of this right because not only am I taking care of my husband who is very very sick also trying to take care of my very young daughter um and and and and also trying to take care of myself yeah turns out right like trying to take care of myself in this really poor Community right and what I remember thinking after he died and my daughter looked at me and said you didn’t help him enough was if I have anything to do with this no other mother will ever have to feel this again and it took me a little while I had to gain a couple more skills before I got to Copa or even before I got to CHC I had to gain a few things that I needed to help me build an organization and build a prevention system that I believed would work um but the the moment I stepped into my role at celebrating Healthy Communities I knew that that’s where that was going to happen like I knew in my heart of hearts and because data um you know our hearts are awesome but also like data wins the show um I knew that building that Community would make it a place where no other mother had to feel alone in that situation because here’s the thing all of those mothers that I sat with as they lost their young children as they themselves struggled with their own mental health challenges as they sat with their husbands or the amount of men and Farmers God bless them they are the highest risk for suicide in our state sitting with people who literally differ than you on almost every single topic except your love for each other and the community is such a gift and to watch a person that you’ve sat with struggle to live and see them eight years later thriving happy and healthy like that that is a job well done and there’s no amount of data right it’s very hard to collect that data right but being able to see and this is why they’re still my people right yeah I feel that like being able to see them happy healthy and thriving when they were like on the brink yeah like it’s brilliant that my why happens so often that I never really have a chance to fix it or to like forget it you know what I mean like beautiful It’s amazing And even here right working where people are generally happy healthy and thriving MH right and knowing that my people who are happy healthy and thriving are the ones doing that work that I did there um I know how much that hurts yeah and so while I’m not dealing with it in the same way I’m there supporting people and hopefully making it just that much easier for them to like work through what they are also working through in their secondary trauma yeah wow I absolutely love that and I connect with you on a lot of that why and thank you so much for taking an experience and fortifying it indic community so that others don’t have to walk through what you did and I would have to imagine 9 10 years later right yeah your daughter would say something like that’s my mom oh yeah she okay so my daughter is rad my daughter is Super Rad and she’s a little activist and and I I love her a lot she’s super super passionate and obviously she doesn’t remember her dad but she knows that I’ve been working for her dad since she can remember she knows my why you know and um she um is 16 so she doesn’t always say it outright um but I heard her talking about me the other day oh yeah and I was like oh she’s talking about me she’s she’s acting proud of me um but when we first moved to Denver we live in this beautiful house in in Cheesman Park in Denver um which of course we share with four other families but you can’t tell you can’t tell looking at it right like it just looks like a big beautiful right and I my daughter came out to visit on her uh 13th birthday because I had moved up here first and then she followed once I found a place to live so I took her there before we could move in she was moving in like a week later I took her there and she has her little hands on her hips and she’s looking up at this giant house and she goes mom you did it my God heart taking me to the Grave yeah oh my goodness that is so cool and thank you so much for joining us today thank you so much for sharing so openly with our viewers the Peaks recovery family um and what Copa is doing in the community and uh personally and professionally I’m just grateful to know you and be connected with you is there anything how do people find information about Copa website uh Coop providers association.org has everything you need to know about us we also on LinkedIn Instagram and Facebook Okay um our association manager Sydney is the bees knes at social media so if we know it you’re knowing next that’s so cool well check them out Copa thank you so much again Bria uh it’s been amazing having you on the show Bria kinla everybody thank you so much peace

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Episode 132Redefining Wellness with Dr. Christian WadeWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/TVUDXSlvBeMListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Chris welcomes Dr. Christian Wade, owner of Concierge Wellness, to speak on the medicine of movement and the vitality of personal wellness. Both Chris and Dr. Wade share personal stories leading to exceptional results through the effective approach to wellness created at Concierge Wellness. From prescribing wellness and gym memberships to redefining PT 2.0, this episode is full of important and insightful information to hopefully get us all to feeling and performing optimal, not just average. For more information on Dr. Wade or Concierge Wellness, check out Conciergewellnessandpt.com

Talking Points1. Chris’ personal story (0:25) 2. Christians Personal Approach (2:30) 3. The Concierge Wellness process (3:40) 4. Changing perceptions on PT (6:55) 5. Prescribing wellness (10:55) 6. Wellness in PT (13:30) 7. How do you feel? (17:28) 8. Christians motivation and passion (18:49) 9. PT 2.0 (20:45) 10. Looking into relative rest (22:25) 11. A harsh reality of prescription medications (24:30) 12. Conciergewellnessandpt.com (27:45) 13. Optimal, not just average (28:20) 14. Final thoughts (28:50) Quotes

“I’m not there to fix someone’s shoulder pain. I’m there to get them healthier. With the well-being perspective, I just want to approach the whole picture, the whole body, because it’s one beautiful system”.– Dr. Christian Wade, Concierge Wellness

Episode Transcripts

Episode -132- Transcripts[Music] hey everybody and welcome to another exciting amazing and connected episode of Finding Peaks Yours Truly president founder chief executive officer Chris Burns so grateful to be here today with my guests but before we introduce the guests I want to tell you a little story about eight months ago or excuse me about 12 months ago back in October of last year I’ve been doing Jiu-Jitsu for about seven or eight months and at this time I couldn’t could literally could not lift my shoulders above my head and I had succumbed to the fact or the thought of a fact that maybe I just can’t do Jiu-Jitsu I had talked to my wife I was like maybe I need to quit I’m 40 years old I shouldn’t do this I’m 38 by the way and then I decided to support one of my good friends Andrew and paks alumni on a 100 mile race and I decided to support him or he asked me to support him from 80 to 100 miles and this was really really cool it was Peaks alumni it was Garden of the Gods but when we get down to the Finish Line I run into a guy who I would come to later know as Dr Christian Wade and he talks a bit about concierge wellness and I had never heard about this specifically in Colorado Springs he says he creates relationships with individuals to help them find Healing on their Journey physical spiritual mental and emotional from that day to now my life has adamantly changed spiritually mentally emotionally and most certainly physically I have the best shoulders on planet Earth I’m feeling really good um and I’m talking to people that I love and care about about concierge Wellness about Dr Christian Wade so without further Ado my doctor good friend Dr Christian way with concierge Wellness everybody hey thanks for having me absolutely man how are you doing today I’m great it’s good to be here it’s good to chat about wellness and all the things included yeah it’s it’s cool because I I go to the Jiu-Jitsu gym all the time and I’m like you know people are always hurting arms are hurting legs are hurting I’m like call my guy yeah and I get asked the question sometimes like yeah but it’s it’s $1,200 for 10 sessions and like you know what’s different about it and I say just give them a call sit down create the opportunity and walk through it and you tell me what’s different about it um I think first off and foremost Christian and you’ll be able to speak to this more clearly than I can I think the relational side is everything my PT experience was 15 minutes in with somebody I didn’t know we didn’t really have a relationship he’d pull my leg left and right and then I’d be bouncing balls off a trampoline for the next 45 minutes and I thought that’s what physical therapy was yeah and I continue to have the aches and pains in the creeks and I experience no healing and so maybe for the viewers a little bit you know what is this coner Wellness about what is an intimate relationship with a practitioner and how does that work yeah good question uh you hit on a lot of that but it it is a relationship it’s me you know it’s me every time you know until we grow and have other providers you’d still have that one provider every time but you know I think most people’s experience with physical therapy is similar to yours right we’re going in we get on the spin bike for 10 minutes someone stretches us out for 10 minutes stand on some phone pads do some band work call it good you know 12 sessions later still have a knee pain so you know I’ve worked in over 15 clinics over five states across the country and I’ve realized I’ve seen the good the bad the ugly and I realized I want to make a change I want to I want to create a different version of what PT is um so really I do it comes it starts with a thorough assessment you witnessed that you know 90 minutes with me one-on-one the whole time we go through your medical history your past history all your injuries anything that could be related um we talk about nutrition we talk about good sleep hygiene Stress Management water protein all the good stuff M um we develop a plan for you right for each person that plan is going to look a little bit little bit different with the overarching theme good nutrition good exercise I think that’s it’s just the basic stuff that we miss um and so I’ve created a company where I provide that concer service we have direct communication you know during your plan of care with me you can text me anytime right if I can’t answer over a text I’ll call you I’ll FaceTime you um it’s creating that access to good care care right so we’re not only providing quality service but quality access to that uh traditional medical model you know we’re waiting four to six weeks to see anybody these days right um before we got on the show I had a cancellation someone texted me to get in I’m seeing them tonight nice so you know worst case next week right so um it’s been nice to be able to provide that flexibility for people and so that’s part of the con process and it’s it’s it’s so important too because there’s there’s so much mistrust us with our medical model and what we’ve walked through I mean my wife had a a surgery where she had a rod put in she has never been the same yep um and she was rushed into that and people are rushed into these things unbeknownst to the outcomes and so there’s a tremendous amount of distrust and so I love what you’re talking about too because it’s not just sitting down doing physical therapy having an assessment creating wellness it’s like hey man we’re going to build a relationship that is trusting and I had never certainly i’ I’ve never been in this type of shape because I’ve never been able to walk with a provider day in and day out I was texting Christian before we got up here I mean I had a leg thing and he’s like we’ll check you out we’ll get you good that’s the type of connective tissue experience that helps kind of my bias settle a little bit and recreate some opportunity for trust and healing yeah you know yeah so it’s a it’s a beautiful process I I really really love it I encourage each and every person to at least give it a shot and it feels you know it’s it’s like this investment you know it’s like waking up at 5:00 a.m. I remember my good friend Christian panoa he always says he said you invest now or you invest later yeah we invest now or we invest later and similar to waking up at 5:00 a.m. it’s much more difficult um when I become 75 years old and I have all sorts of core mobidity issues if I make it that late yep and so I want to invest today because I think we’ve done the cost benefit analysis for folks that are dealing with mental health issues uh substance use recovery uh diet nutrition exercise and movement quite frankly is all the craze right now yep what have you seen from your clients from a mental health perspective I know you’ve worked with a ton of people you know and to watch that light turn on and them go oh my gosh I’m smiling I’m happy I feel good I look good I got friends maybe chat with the viewers a little bit about like what does that experience like yeah I think that’s what drives me a lot is I was speaking with my wife about this I want to change someone’s perspective I want to change their mental ality around this injury or or chronic pain or whatever they’re dealing with and I can relate to that you know I’ve had lower back pain since College injury took me almost 10 years to kind of work through that um and various different medical professions and and opinions on it but mentally it’s it’s taxing it’s super taxing and you need someone to kind of go through that with you instead of bouncing different providers and getting unknown um answers and so from a mental perspective Ive I think what I what I found that I provide the most for people that they don’t get elsewhere is Hope right I’m giving them hope this can get better this can absolutely get better may not be tonight may not be tomorrow but it can absolutely get better and so yeah it it motivates me to give hope because a lot of people don’t have that in our current system yeah right we’re going to go see a provider we’re going to we throw it our back right we’re going to go to Urgent Care Urgent Care is going to take an x-ray make sure we didn’t break anything thing send us home with muscle relaxers some pain pills tell us to take it easy yeah probably the worst thing we could do mhm um six weeks later we follow up we might get a referral to physical therapy might not you know they’re still stuck they’re still dealing with this pain they’re probably going to get another pill probably going to offer an injection because we want that fixed yep so mentally I try to encourage people let’s give it a little bit of time this didn’t happen overnight mhm even if you think it did you know you think it was just that thing you lifted this was probably years of of poor choices adding up you know and accumulating to this injury um but yeah I just I like to provide the hope for people I think mentally that’s huge and then Clarity um and some kind of vision like what does the future look like what can that look like and we we work towards that MH yeah it’s really it’s it’s really beautiful and and I obviously we anchor into that here at Peaks recovery is like so many people have had the door shut slammed in their face of Hope over and over and over and so when we can create visibility Clarity connection and trust with our providers I think it really creates a momentum um with our mental health and with our recovery and with our clients that we have the opportunity to work with which is so cool and we were chatting a little bit about before the show you know it’s I’m I’m really big into this Wellness thing in my 16th year of recovery because when I first got into recovery they’re like you need to go to this church basement hang out there three times a day it’s going to be really dark in there but you’re going to find people that love you and care about you and there was people that loved and cared about me but what I also saw in there often times um was incredibly disconnected choices with respect to nutrition with respect to um environment um but nobody’s informing that and so as a result I think I read a study most recently that folks that struggle with mental health issues are three to five times more likely to die from all cause death mortality which breaks my heart and so I want to ensure that I’m introducing to people in recovery as we move into recovery what I like to call 2.0 um spiritual mental and emotional that they know that there’s an opportunity to actually not feel the way that they feel um I I know when I first started meeting with you I remember after like four months I was like dude I don’t think these shoulders are going to get better and then all of the sudden right it’s a process Y and you speak so clearly to allowing oneself to engage in your process um which I think is really dynamic um and fitting for the recovery process um I don’t remember many doctors growing up man um that actually prescribe movement as medicine yeah but I was listening to this podcast the other day and I know you’re familiar with it as well but they’re talking about doctors writing prescriptions for gym memberships how does that work yeah as far as I know you can write it it’s called a medical letter of medical necessity yeah so all they got to do is say hey exercises necessary for this person’s Medical Health mhm plain and simple they write on a pad could be like a prescription script pad right for pills but they write exercise or gym membership or Whole Foods whatever you can get that covered under your HSA FSA dollars so we’re using tax advantage dollars to pay for our gym memberships uh pay for our our whole foods and and supplements and our super greens and all that it makes too much sense yeah it makes way too much sense but um unfortunately doesn’t make dollars right for the pharmaceutical companies so it’s been it’s been in the dark for a while but that’s so good for people to know especially in early recovery maybe they’re coming in they’re a young adult they’re on their folks insurance plan they got an HSA this is covered yeah I didn’t know until I I listen to that podcast of those Stanford surgeons and they were talking about it but literally we get our doctors to write on there hey you know can we just not do the whatever and insert um gym membership at Lifetime and then now you have this coverage through your health benefit which is extraordinary that’s so cool man I learned that the other day I was like holy crap I cannot believe that most people aren’t talking about that yeah but what a beautiful thing and what a cool opportunity that’s there that um we can kind of open the bail to for our viewers yeah and we take all that right so you can use HSA FSA dollars for for con Wellness as well oh nice y I was trying to think if I had an HSA I was actually thinking um earlier this week I wanted to do a cost benefit analysis on how much I actually pay for my health benefit how much I use and kind of see what that looks like as well because you’re going in and you’re right you’re you’re getting your physical therapy you’re coming in you’re paying your $20 co-pay but then oftentimes you’re getting a bill too as well and so um just really want to speak
to the connectivity and The Purpose Driven opportunity that people have when they check in with you and your team I mean just really really cool um you speak to something very clearly uh both in session and on your website talking about elevating your well-being I think that’s really really cool because people I don’t think people connect physical therapy with well-being right how do you connect physical therapy with wellbeing yeah just to hit on all the factors right um we’ve been separated into different Specialties you know PT is just supposed to rub your back or pop it or give you some exercises but traditionally we haven’t talked about the other things and all those lifestyle factors and so I try to hit on everything General Wellness picture right um we’ve chatted many times but yeah I can manipulate your back or yeah I can get the shoulder pain down or we can get you stronger but like are you sleeping you know 8 to nine hours a night are you drinking you know half your body weight and fluid ounces are you eating a gram per gram per pound of body fat of protein a day you know are you managing your stress well all the things that go into pain right specifically um so I’m not there to fix someone’s shoulder pain I’m I’m there to get them healthier there to get them their well-being elevated right so I think with the well-being perspective I just want to approach the whole picture the whole body um it’s one it’s one you know amazing beautiful system we can’t treat it like it’s one part it’s just a spine it’s just a shoulder it’s one full system always working together yeah that’s so cool man because it it speaks to quality of life and quality of life issues and we at Peaks recovery we do on the front end we’ll do like quality of life assessments so people come in naturally they’re like yeah zero out of 10 like this is terrible yeah you know and when I started to move into more of my holistic Wellness I would have thought if you would have asked me about quality of life because of where I was at and where I had been which was like hell right so it was easy for me to be like this is great8 out of 10 but I’m 50 lbs overweight M I’m disconnected in relationships family community and culture but I’m sober so many years and so I I think there’s some there’s something to really say to speaking to the whole person and really elevating that because when I look back with the benefit of hindsight today I would have been like and I tell people this all the time I’m like five or a six of quality of life because I didn’t know what was possible I really want to like light a fire under my recovery people um that podcast we were talking about and just the recent study about steps and just taking steps I think sometimes people look at Chris Burns like dude he’s crazy man you take way too many steps you know and I’m not asking anybody to do that whatsoever I am a little bit on that edge yeah but I heard a study the other day 7500 steps a day 7500 steps a day just walking with a friend having a coffee in a park whatever it might be uh and Christian and I are going to go test how long it takes but we’re imagining it takes about 40 to 45 minutes as a casual Pace it lowers 40 to 60% all cause death mortality if I can do 7,500 steps a day it’s huge it’s huge and I know each and every person down on on our trail head campus right now all 30 of them each and every one of them on any given day can walk with me for 7500 steps and that can reduce yeah all cause death mortality what a gift huge what a gift no pills doing that yeah no pills doing that yeah it’s it’s it’s really really cool and then we bring people out and we’re like oh my gosh we can really begin to to your point get some good sleep enact the Circadian rhythm get sunlight on our face in the morning every single thing that you hit on with respect to Wellness informs mental health mhm informs mental health I sit around with people all the time you know I’ll run or I’ll run down the road I’ll be like hey they’re walking their dog it’s dark out I’m like way to engage in your mental health they’re like what yeah like this what we’re doing yeah that’s what we’re doing 100% And I feel so much better and I kind of feel compelled to tell this story as well you know you’ve been working with uh Cass my wife for the last eight weeks or so and I was chatting with her yesterday we got home as my leg was swelling up like a grapefruit and I’m just like she asks a brilliant question all the time she asks great questions but the one question that she asks all the time that I think is the greatest question on Earth she always says yeah how do you feel how do you feel love that you know how do you feel and so she was talking about her experience working with you she just got back from her walk for a mile she’s bright and beautiful more than ever because she’s doing the things and I was like how do you feel and she’s like I feel amazing yeah it’s just a couple months you know um from surviving to thriving yeah there’s a real opportunity here for people um that are feeling a little down on their luck a little disconnected from their mental health and their overall well-being to engage in something that maybe feels a little bit atypical but when you were talking I I almost thought to myself you’re like the 2024 recovery sponsor yeah that’s what it is it just costs money yeah you know so um I think one of the coolest things that I’ve that I’ve really been able to connect with since knowing you and being in relationship with you is is your willingness to Buck the status quo maybe you can talk a little bit where that passion came from you know I know you’re in um you you went to school you’ve worked at 15 different locations but where did where did you start to see like we can do this better yeah what just resonated with me when you asked that was a specific experience I worked at I did travel therapy so I was kind of put in different places around the country I was in the middle of nowhere Kingman Arizona oh yeah yeah know Kingman yeah uh you know I’m I’m pretty new to PT I think I was a year out if that um treat a lot of chronic back pain um and you know I was trying to implement things I learned in school let’s do some soft tissue and then also you’re as a new grad you know you’re kind of um you start treating how other people around you treat because you don’t know all the things yet so you’re like I’ll do what they do cuz it seems like it’s working but in this specific experience we were not getting results but the treatment was you come in you get a hot pack when going L you on a hot pack it’s going to feel good right 10 minutes later we’re going to take it off we’re going to we’re going to rub on you we give you a little massage right on the on the on the table after that we’re going to show you a couple stretches after that we might put a band around your knees and have you spread your knees might have you lay on your back and lift your hips do some bridges and they’ll say how do you feel feeling good all right we’ll see you on Tuesday you know and I I was there for nine months that was a 12E contract I left in nine months because I realized wow this is not working this is terrible I had never seen so many back fusions wow in in my life and people are going in fusing their spinal for fusing I saw people fused all the way wow couldn’t move could you imagine what they were there for back pain well back pain right you know we’re putting rods in people spines to fix back pain it’s not working we’re massaging backs it’s not working heat packs it’s not working so I was like wow what is this you know and it and then I went and started trying to learn more finding good ConEd courses there’s a company out there shout out to ice physio they’re doing great things they’re they’re what they’re doing is they’re calling PT 2.0 right it’s that next step of PT we’re not doing the ultrasounds and the hot packs and stuff we’re getting people moving we’re talking about nutrition talking about sleep HGI lifestyle habits CU all that is related and so that was like the switch for me was like we got to do better as a profession I cannot put another hot pack on somebody and think their back’s going to feel better yeah long term right yeah so that was a big switch for me I pursued more continued education I surrounded myself with like-minded individuals who are doing that so you know the phrase that a lot of my colleagues use is we’re going to mob it and load it we’re going to mobilize you whether it’s adjustments mobilization get you moving and then we’re going to load it we’re going to put some resistance on it we’re going to get you stronger we’re going to build up resiliency in those tissues and you build a capacity in those tissues that tolerate more and that’s what we really need okay that’s that’s huge yeah you know is it’s interesting when I came in today with my swollen leg Yeah you not for a second did you say all right man we’re going to we’re going to go put it up we’re going to stay off of it for the rest yeah the first thing you asked me is did you train today yeah you know I was like yeah I already trained you’re like cool man right on how’d that go he’s like I saw you with your deadlifts good job yeah it wasn’t you know you go see a doctor down they’re going to be like oh my gosh your leg would you put it up elevate it six months you know it’s insane take it easy yeah and I think the the biggest piece of advice people get is you should rest it MH so usually the worst thing you could do right mobilize I think I men if your femur is split in half let’s get that straightened out right yeah but you know most things we don’t need to rest it we call it relative rest mhm let’s not piss it off right let’s get after it other ways yeah let’s get you on the bike let’s get you doing something let’s do some upper body let’s get the blood flowing yeah it was like today you know it’s like I I like to run I like to rock I like to be on my feet I like to walk had to switch up the RX I had to row sure you’re still doing something exactly still moving yeah and the worst part is when people stop moving right now we’re not dealing with it it’s not just your your calf now you’re deconditioned your whole system is weaker right so anyone who come to me especially high level athletes anyone’s training they come to with an injury we’re still training we’re not stopping we’re training around an injury you cannot stop um it’s it’s it’s so cool because it really is like it is so synonymous Christian with the recovery process that we speak to with respect to mental health substance use we don’t we don’t get to stop right and we certainly don’t get to go backwards um this is this is a process that moves forward one day at a time and the most important thing in recovery and something that I battled with certainly over the last 16 years is just being where my feet are um and that can be really difficult when you’re injured and you’re not feeling well and you’re disconnected you’re not getting sun and certainly when you’re not sleeping and so I love your methodology and the way that you approach this and the fact that you just called it Physical Therapy 2.0 and that’s what people are calling it well that’s what I’m calling this recovery thing 2.0 we’re not only is it the most group of the most courageous people and brave people that I’ve ever met but it’s becoming um the strongest group of people I’ve ever met at the same time so really really cool to be able to elevate people’s mind and bodies especially you know for folks like me the early part of my life it really treated my body really really really poorly you know and we can get better and we can heal yep which I think is is so cool yeah I think a lot of the dam the damage we cause could cause is certainly reversible and I think a big mindset shift that needs to occur is I was speaking with one of my clients this morning um 78 I believe comorbidities and and uh I said she wasn’t taking her blood pressure medication and you know I said you know I’m not a proponent for taking more meds but if your doc gave you this med you know ideally you are taking it to try and see if it’s working we don’t know if it’s working if you’re not taking it and her comment was well I just take so many other meds and I don’t see how I’m going to get off of any of them she said at my age I think people just stay on these meds and I was like wow that’s the problem yeah yeah the the the question should always be Doc how long am I going to be on this doc how do I get off this Statin doc how do I get off this pain med yeah we’re not asking those questions Doc’s not answering those questions let’s try another one let’s try one to counteract those side effects it’s like what are we doing what are we doing have you asked them if they slept last night yeah have you asked them what they ate for breakfast Mickey de is not cutting it m right Kell is not cutting it yeah let’s get some protein let’s get real food that’s what our bodies were designed for yeah so I think we just need to get back to the basics um but I love what you mentioned earlier about Cass your wife asking you how do you feel MH that’s a question I ask a lot of my clients some examples could be you know people are like squatting or like people think their their technique is wrong or like something I’m like well how does it feel mhm you know um yeah certain exercises like I was told never to do this how’s it feel feel good let’s go yeah um you know doc says MRI looks bad doc said I got this is the best one it’s bone on bone yeah it’s the worst I’ve ever seen yeah it’s like wow that sounds pretty bad yeah how’s it feel yeah you know I’ve seen so many people that get get these images and have this perception of like Doc H it’s really bad you know I got to have surgery it’s not really going to get better I’m not really having much pain like we can work with this we can get better 100% how do you feel so yeah I love that I love that too and it’s it’s important you know something you always mention is is the last thing you want to do is cut your body open last thing you want to do is cut your body open and so if we can move into treating chronic issues yeah with services like coner you know and it is one of those things that you know fortunately or unfortunately it’s going to be a process and it’s not a quick fix but what’s really cool about it not being a quick fix is it gets to be a sustainable and long-term fix yeah which is really really cool and that impacts quality of life I’ve been injured for two days I mean I track everything my my my resting blood my resting uh heart rate is up four beats a minute the last two nights just probably fighting this thing you know little things like that and so I’m really engaged with um and I’ve been talking to a lot of my recovery people lately um about becoming addicted to Optimal and I think wellness and Dr Christian Wade really speak to that um in a really really cool way so I appreciate you appreciate you coming on the show today yeah um appreciate you letting all the viewers know what actually is available in the community how can the how can the viewers find you where’s your website yeah so con Wellness mpt.com um you can find me there Instagram’s con Wellness another shout out to ice physio though if you want to go on their website you can go ice phys. finded clinician or just Google ice physio find a clinician uh they will help you there on their website find a solid PT nearby oh really yep cool so you don’t need to be knocking doors or going to wherever doc sent you because that’s all they know you can find quality people who are going to spend time with you and not pass you around and they speak the same language we’re going to mobilize and we’re going to load it up we’re going to get you feeling better um but just to speak on your point about optimizing right I think another point to hit on is people say you know and this is where Insurance stops paying paying let’s you know I I was told to write my notes to to insurance we want to do X Y and Z to get them back to Prior level of function Poff that was always a hot word we put in our note we want to get them back to Prior level prior level is how they got here we’re getting you better than that yeah right so I don’t want to get you back to where you came from I want to get you better than that and so we want to get be optimal not just average right and I think that’s that’s been a huge huge issue in our Health Care system is this mediocrity average back to where you came from yeah you know it’s so funny you say that cuz in recovery I was like I just need to go back to the 12-year-old like you don’t need to go back to that we’re creating a new person yeah exactly new person let’s go you know so well man I appreciate you coming on the show I appreciate what you do for me and my family and and and even bigger than that which you do for the Colorado Springs and Fountain Community Dr Christian we everybody yeah thanks you all thank you peace appreciate it [Music]
you

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Episode 131The Power of Presence: Nik Darrah on Healing and Community OutreachWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/Mj-FQc_5iGYListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Chris brings Nik Darrah back to the show, this time as Peaks Recovery Center’s new Community Outreach Specialist! From experiencing PRC as a client 10 years ago to now being a part of the staff, Nik shares his milestones, successes, and personal ambitions for his new role. In this shared discussion, the spotlight lands on updating definitions of substance use to classify it as a mental health disorder, to the power of slowing down and being present. Community outreach is vital and we are so happy to bring Nik back home to Peaks to continue saving lives, one day at a time.

Talking Points1. Reintroduction for Nik (1:04) 2. Values first (3:33) 3. Connectedness in the industry (8:05) 4. In-state or out-of-state treatment? (8:35) 5. Substance use is a mental health condition (10:39) 6. Not a sales job (15:10) 7. The power of the process (17:00) 8. Slowing down (19:00) 9. Appreciation for Nik (20:52) 10. Final thoughts (21:35) Quotes

“I think the shift in evolution and substance use treatment specifically is shifting more towards a mental health base”.-Nik Darrah, Community Outreach Specialist

Episode Transcripts

Episode -131- Transcripts[Music] hey everybody and welcome to another amazing and exciting episode of Finding Peaks Yours Truly president and founder chief executive officer Chris Burns so excited to be joined by our community outreach Specialists and alumni first client let’s make sure we get the resume correct Nicholas star great to have you on the show sir yeah thank you I’m so happy to be back and I’m happy to be a part of this company now it’s amazing yeah it’s like I was um I was at a conference I just got back from emergence 2024 yeah and one of the um women that was up there speaking as one of the keynote speakers she talked about working in the field similar to you for years yeah before coming back to a place that she called home she was like in and her place was this place called The Friendly House and they called her up and said hey would you want to come back do an x y andz and she’s like would I want to come home yeah um uh I bet that experience has been really really cool um maybe tell the viewers what that’s been like I mean 10 years later Nick 10 years I know and when you said that it actually gave me goosebumps a little bit because it feels the exact same way like when I’m talking to people they’re like how are things going and I’m like I’m home like this is where I was meant to be you know what I mean like I come in and I know the HR person and the owner and the Ed and all of these people and it felt so welcoming and I’ve been there about a month is now May be a little longer and I feel like I’ve worked here forever like it just feels like I’m like part of ingrained in the the family you know and it’s so magical to to come from working in the industry where I’ve had amazing jobs and I’ve met amazing people to then transition back to where I learned like what it was for me and and what changed my life and made me the person I am today yeah and so to to have the experience to sit at the table if you will in that way is so impactful and it’s amazing love it here it’s it’s so cool to have you back and um you know everyone was really really excited and and we knew I was actually at um and I’m going to talk about it a little bit but I was at the emergence conference and um our old Outreach specialist Jessica was there yeah and she’s working for an adolescent program at um Phoenix she’s doing really well and she’s like I was so upset that you guys hired until I learned who it was and she’s like and I’m so happy she’s like that is a beautiful fit um and so want to touch on a little bit um this conference I just went to emergence yeah emergence of what 2024 TJ Woodward conscious recovery put on this wonderful conference best conference I’ve been to by far most connected most authentic most integrated and just very special and near and dear to my heart and one of the things that they talked about a lot there and that I was on a panel for was the emergence of spirituality within Behavioral Health yeah and the emphasis the overarching emphasis that we have on that and just to see our clients yeah and I think sometimes that gets missed when we get into our bioses and our assessments and our front-end processes and our policies and just to see somebody yeah and now that we have you kind of on the marketing path um I’m reminded of the video our 10e video when you say that you guys essentially saw me yeah how do we emulate for the community from a business development perspective like Peaks recovery like simply put we see you you yeah you know and it it’s a big question but I think it can be boiled down to something really simple and that’s like keeping our values in mind of what it is right like especially in a marketing or a sales or a business development role we often think of things like Tech sales for example right I’m going to sell you this software program and we’re going to do kind of like a shotgun technique we’re going to send this out to everyone and they’re going to see it and they’re going to want this product right and I think that works some but I also think like we’ve seen such a shift in business development from this this style of a one for one like if you send me a referral Iceland you a a referral and getting away from this old school mentality of like body brokering right and that was a huge thing back in the day now you get felonies for it and you go to prison which is amazing because that’s exactly what should happen um because this isn’t a product I’m selling this is a person this is their life and if they don’t get it right here they could die like actually be dead and so why are are we trying to Market it in the same way we would a laptop you know it doesn’t make sense to do it that way and I think switching our perception in that can be really impactful um there’s a great organization here called Copla which stands for the Colorado Association of profession or the Colorado Le professional liaison Association that’s what it is yeah um and they do things to build ethical treatment and business development in the behavi real Health industry right um and I think that really speaks to the culture of of what we see in marketing here right and how instead of this old school mentality we’re we’re shifting to see the client as a person who needs help right and so if when I get a referral out from someone or they call us and we can’t take them for whatever reason I don’t just go okay well like here’s your insurance option call them bye right like I spend time I get to know the families I get to know them and say okay well you’re telling me that your child needs help with schoolwork and they have borderline personality disorder and this is the entrance you have and I go through my little roller decks you know whatever and pull names that really fit that client right so I’m sending them out there regardless if I know they’re going to send back to me because that’s not the goal right it’s it’s to place this person in this care and I think um I have some examples like I worked with this mother for two and a half months I would call her once a week right trying to find a good fit for her son because he had uh pretty high needs right and I’m talking to her and I just call her to check in see how things are going you know and the sound of her voice throughout those months right like it started so hopeless she’s like I’ve called 15 places and they just say nothing they can’t take him and that’s all but you call and you check in and you provide real support and you’re trying to learn what we do and it’s so cool and amazing and I’m just really grateful for that right and that I think is that shift right seeing this person as a person who has a family who has loved ones who’s trying to do better and do one of the hardest things they’ve probably ever done in their life now my job is to help that happen facilitate that and what does that look like yeah you know and really you know what’s coming up for me as you said that is like giving reverence to this process yeah like this is we are so privileged to be walking with humans yes and I love the admissions team they they developed it themselves it was a listen first solve later but I like the idea of like listen first walk later yeah because there there’s a human right there and if we can see that human appropriately that human has needs yeah uh specific to that individual right and if we we can begin to potentially for the first time in that person’s life begin to cater to those needs those inherent needs we can create a process that’s much more fluid and opportunistic not just for the treatment program but for the individual right you know and they get to come in and they get to settle yeah and experience things that they haven’t been experiencing like safety yeah and connection and Attunement absolutely um AB so I love that you’re moving and you’re creating that energy and that Peaks can be a part of um or at the Forefront with some of these more integrous providers to ensure that like we don’t we don’t need to walk with everybody we just need to walk with the people that need us the most right absolutely and I think that’s how we create change in the industry right like this thought of um connectedness right so like if we show up that way and we know this organization shows up that way and then this organization does when a new person comes they’re either going to show up the positive way and be part of the group or they’re going to kind of be on the outskirts and they’re not really going to last right and I think that goes back to this idea of how we’re connected and how one conversation can change the trajectory of so many people you know yeah how are you finding in the um provider Community yeah are you finding that there are within the state of Colorado and specifically on the Front Range are you finding that we have most resources covered in a really really authentic way are you finding that there’s reasonable foreseeability a lot to refer out of state for specific issues I I think it’s a balance right I would say it’s probably 50/50 right there are some out of state programs that are phenomenal and there’s nothing like it here right and so if that’s going to be the best fit and it’s feasible and doable right why not go to the program that’s out of state that’s going to give you the best chance of success um I think I’ve seen clients from everywhere across the United States in my professional life and I think it really is about what’s going to be best for you in that moment to move forward right because at the end of the day I can come in and say you need to do blah blah blah blah blah XYZ every moment and you can do those things but when you leave here if that’s not you if that’s not going to be something you do it won’t matter you’re going to go back to doing what you want to do right yeah that no that’s beautifully stated how do you think it’s going to land you know because you’re really just first four weeks you know I I know you’ve gotten some referrals and things that but it hasn’t been necessarily your intention yeah um how do you think it lands going out into community and instead of selling this like mutually exclusive we do mental health and I heard it in California I was just like okay yeah we this substance use house this is a mental health house and these are separated and it’s different how do you think it’s going to be received or maybe you’ve already experienced how it’s being received when you’re going out and like hey you know like we treat suffering and we actually treat this population together together really really well and I wonder if it’s the separation and I don’t know I’m not an expert but I wonder if it’s the separation of the two that continues to have unnecessary weighted shame on one human or another maybe you can speak to that a little bit like just in the in the community because you don’t hear a lot of it I was just at a conference everybody’s like substance use Mental Health substance use Mental Health it’s like do we treat humans or what what do we do here yeah and I think if I’m really going to boil it down and and I think simplify it like substance use is a mental health condition right yeah so like people don’t just go out and become addicted to drugs because their life is so great and everything’s going good right like it’s it’s a coping skill that we use whether that is to numb yourself from everything or maybe you are dealing with some mental health diagnosis symptoms right and so then substances take those away right and I think that’s super true for anything from paranoid schizophrenia to generalized anxiety right like if you’re anxious and you know you do cocaine and that makes you not feel anxious you’re probably going to do cocaine right because that’s how you live your life and I I think the shift and evolution and in substance use treatment specifically is Shifting more towards a mental health base right because if you don’t treat those underlying conditions it doesn’t matter if they stop using drugs for 30 days those things are going to creep back in and creep back in and then here we are back in treatment again for whatever the five six seventh 15th time depending on the client right and if we can shift that to to think of substance use as a mental health condition because it is then all treatment centers are going to be mental health right and there’s going to be Specialties right like your program might be DBT specialized to treat borderline personality disorder you might be more CBT based and you can treat depression right and that’s great and substance use fits in there so I think the real shift is happening at a lot of these wellestablished treatment centers to go from this traditional addiction recovery model that’s been around since the 30s into a more nuanced approach that that takes into account a whole person and how to treat them wholly as opposed to symptomatically huge huge and in words as were talking about before the show now we’re back to this thing like Words matter words matter and like it’s like okay so I’m going to come in and it’s being really well received like in California I went up there and when I said we treat suffering it was like it may be the first time they’ heard that in this room yeah you know and because if I’m going to go to a substance use Treatment Center I mean Tommy Rosen said it best on um the he gave a talk right at the end there and he said okay I’m going to go get my substance use treated MH now I don’t have any more substance use issues well holy [ ] now I’m [ ] excuse my French because now all the other issues are here and I don’t have my coping mechanism and now this is a real bad time you want to talk about like hanging on and that’s why I really love the 12 Steps early on because it it’s kind of a desperation model and we can show up there in This calamity and create some potential Serenity and some Synergy yeah um but I love that you can go out into Community now yeah and really every time I’ve brought it up yeah it’s been really well received oh all ages yeah mental health and this yeah and let me talk about how oh yeah that makes sense it does make sense and I think it it makes sense and I think it is really well received and I also think it challenges stigma right because people sometimes depending on who you are can really rationalize mental health right they’re like depression is real that’s a real thing where they can’t do that for substance use or vice versa right and I think when we speak of it as a whole condition which is a mental health condition and a behavioral health field right then we in the stigma of like oh this is a drug addict right they don’t deserve this stuff they did these things to themselves right which is a belief a lot of people have had and has shifted a lot which has been great yeah it’s not only on that substance you side it takes the weight off the substance AB but also the person um who’s depressed at home and doesn’t have those types of substance issues was like [ __ ] I can get help now too yeah so it pushes us closer together and not further heart and so that can only be yeah connected connectiveness absolutely and I think it’s it’s being honest with who you really are right and and being able to be authentically yourself in the moment whether that shows up with your substance use issues or your mental health issues or whatever things you’re walking through in your life and and learning that it’s okay to have those things and how do I move forward through it right and it doesn’t make me a bad person it doesn’t make me weak or whatever we heard exactly yeah yeah it’s it’s really cool man just like personally professionally we’ve been spending a lot of time together lately and um how does it feel to be out be able to go out into community and maybe correct me if I’m wrong if this doesn’t feel right if the shoe doesn’t fit don’t wear it but how does it feel to go out in community and like you don’t you don’t have to sell anything it’s amazing I like like it just is what it is it is what it is right like I’ll go in the community and I’ll say oh yeah I work for Peaks Recovery Center and immediately people are like oh yeah we love them you know um and so they’re like I’m so excited to be able to get there show up and how do I get to come to your site just to check it out right and I think that reputation comes from the quality care that is given to the clients right it’s it’s not about the word of mouth what the website looks like or what’s posted on Facebook right it’s about these clients have left our care and whether they’re going to do after care they’re seeing a therapist their family is seeing a therapist whatever the case is they speak so highly of what they’ve gained here as a client right which then trickles out into the community um and so to to be able to just walk into a room and have people know exactly what we do without even really having to push it is amazing and I think probably if you’re uh in business development anyone’s dream honestly I can just talk about the new add-ons or some of the new things we’re doing but Peaks is what we are who we say we are and we’ve been that way for 10 years yeah that’s right you know it’s a really crazy to even think that we I know we just celebrated the 10e thing but um to move out into Community with that authenticity and and that story is really really cool and it’s you wear it so well because your last 10 years speak so wholeheartedly to um what this process um if entered into courageously can provide for you it’s very true I mean it’s it’s so wild to think about was just talking with someone um who was a client around the same time as me and this thought of like sure it was a different style of treatment right but it was exactly what I needed in that moment to to be who I am today and if I didn’t have this and I didn’t show up the way that I did in treatment would I be here would I be doing the things that I’m doing right the answer is no obviously um but then it it reminds me of the impact I have on people right I come from a clinical background I did a lot of clinical work and I just got a call yesterday I’m like Amazed by this uh from someone and they were talking about their sober living they opened and they went is this Nick and I went it is yeah they’re like oh did you work at so and so and I went yeah I went I was your client and you changed my life and like to hear that I like I’m going to cry it was like so impactful right because it’s something that you don’t really think about you know what I mean it’s like I did what I needed to for that client because I cared about them and I wanted their life to change and now I get to work with them professionally in such a different way um that’s something I haven’t really experienced in that in my life and and it’s so magical when I think about it like all of this stemmed from a phone call and like a trust that I had when I was in a 28-day treatment center that I heard it was like this program’s opening do you want to come be a part of it you’re going to be the leader there is what I heard yeah and I went all right yeah for it I I want to be a leader that’s right yeah I like I don’t know but I was here we are you know that’s so cool man and it’s uh it’s just like yeah it’s just so full circle I was um watching this podcast yeah and it was a rich roll podcast I love Rich Roll yeah and there was a gal on there speaking and I forget her name unfortunately but she talked about now creating purpose in recovery and like why why sometimes does it have to be these like you know for me it’s like I’m going to go hike these hundred mountains I’m going to go do a marathon I’m going do these things I’m be a fighter yeah you know it’s like just slow down yeah right and and you brought it up so eloquently for the viewers you’re like if I can slow down for a moment and hear what that client just told me yeah my purpose is right in front of meh in the moments that I get to experience in presence with other humans yeah that is the purpose of my life today and I again I heard that on a podcast and I just needed to be able to zoom out a little bit because Nick when we slow down that wasn’t the first call you’ve gotten like that no this is an extraordinary experience we’re walking through you as an alumni me as a Founder 10 years removed personally professionally yeah um we are Beyond blessed absolutely absolutely and you’re right on I mean it is I say that was like the experience I’ve had but that’s not true like I see cents all the time at different places and and they’re doing different things um so you’re right it is about like slowing down in that moment and like being present and here for it and I think I don’t know what I think I think it’s it’s like Indescribable almost like what happens to you when you can get there right it’s like this like the term of Enlightenment if you will right like you’re just here yeah and what did they say before Enlightenment what do they say chop carry water oh what do they say after Enlightenment chop wood carry water oh I heard that again this week too okay yeah I was like oh yeah that is what they say so the work is there like before Enlightenment we do the thing after Enlightenment we do the thing we do the thing yeah um well I didn’t want to leave this episode Nick without expressing my gratitude for you um professionally personally relationally uh thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to show up for you your recovery um and thanks for showing up for me and so many different facets and days and opportunities that we’ve had to spend together and I look forward to walking Moment by moment with you out into community and really just sharing with people the good news that we have going on over here yeah I do too and I feel so blessed and fortunate to be a part of this and to to have this in my life and it’s something I talk about with my family all the time right is like how fortunate I am in this and and how different it could be out there yeah so I feel blessed and anything I can do always here for it appreciate you so much man we’ll have to get an update as you go out there you know he’ll be spending some time out in the community doing his thing and so we’ll have you on here in the next six months bring on some of your friends some like-minded individuals and want to connect authentically a tune and work together to make magic happen for individuals that need it the most Nicholas Dar everybody thank you so much brother thank you yeah absolutely until next time my amazing humans peace

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Episode 130Unlocking Mental Strength: A Courageous Journey with Sam PetersonWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/XrkW1N4rtMcListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Chris brings Sam Peterson, a combat veteran and the founder of Mind Spa Denver, to the show. In this compelling conversation, Sam shares his inspiring journey and dives deep into the vital importance of mental health for everyone. With raw honesty and transformative stories, this conversation reveals the realities of military life and a life-altering moment that reshaped Sam’s perspective. Whether you’re seeking insight or inspiration, this episode is a must-listen! For more information on Sam and Mind Spa Denver, check out mindspadenver.com.

Talking Points1. Introduction to Sam Peterson (0:25) 2. The motivation behind Sam’s mission (1:20) 3. Joining the military (3:45) 4. Connection and community in the military (7:45) 5. Leaving the military and reintegrating (13:12) 6. Sam’s story (14:32) 7. Outcomes and personalized care (20:50) 8. Approach to treatment (22:44) 9. Response from veterans (25:15) 10. Talking about “healing” (29:25) 11. Disrupting the industry (34:00) 12. Final thoughts (35:10) 13. mindspadenver.com (38:47) Quotes

“You would think that being deployed overseas, in these combat zones and high-stress environments all the time, would actually be really bad for your mental health. But, it turns out the opposite is true”.– Sam Peterson, Mind Spa Denver

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -130- Transcripts[Music] hey everybody and welcome to another amazing exciting and important episode of Finding Peaks your host founder President Chief Executive Officer Peaks recovery centers Chris Burns so grateful to be here today and joined by combat veteran Sam Peterson EOD technician two tours in Afghanistan Masters in Business Administration owner and founder of uh Mind Spa Denver the list goes on and on I’m really grateful and humbled to have you on the show today talking about what is so near and dear to your heart yeah absolutely man uh you know appreciate appreciate you have me here um you know I think that it’s really important that we’re we’re having these kinds of conversations about mental health and particularly about what we can do in the Mental Health Community to treat more effectively yeah I love that moment I sat down um with Sam I identified and connected with a true champion for mental health for combat veterans veterans in general and First Responders I had never sat down with somebody who was more impassion and more directional I think even the first time I sat down with you I said oh you don’t have any kids I got to meet your wife and you’re like I’m trying to change the world one day at a time and I can’t have kids because this mission is Mission critical for you and it means everything yeah yeah it really does like it I you know I know that I can’t be the the founder CEO and change maker that I want to be and be a present like present father at the same time there’s just not enough hours in the day and um and you know that’s a decision that me and my wife are very very aligned on and and I I no regrets it’s it’s really it’s really fulfilling because you know I think it’s one thing you know being a parent is great you’re especially being a good present parent you’re giving a gift to the world of raising a great citizen that’s really great but where I get where I get that kind of cup filled is you we lose so many great fathers mothers sisters brothers to suicide in the veteran and first responder Community every day these are people who who have disciplined selfless service and Community just like grafted onto their skeletal structure they are they are service they are providing you know the protection and the the healing on your literal worst day especially with First Responders they’re they’re providing that to you and giving giving that piece of themselves has some serious baggage um just especially when we’re talking about trauma and I think it’s just it’s the most incredible thing to be able to see a happy family when you’re done when you help someone get through that worst time in their life get to the other side and actually get healing and you get to give the gift of that parent brother sister mother father back to their kids yeah like back to their community and you know it’s not just about healing that trauma but you have the ability to grow from it and to take that negative input and turn it into positive output in family systems that never thought that was possible which is just really really beautiful and we’re going to get into what you guys are actually doing down there which is Cutting Edge bucking the status quo Innovative and so much more but I wanted to kind of check in on your early career and like why did you decide why were you impassioned to join the military what was it for you uh I mean I just wanted to get the hell out of my hometown yeah um and you know one of the things I really didn’t realize so my my father had a traumatic brain injury uh you know from when I was before I was born my dad D was a roofer and he fell off or three-story roof and landed on a bed of concrete the only reason he was alive is because the wooden Step at the bottom where his head hit just you know growing up with the emotional equivalent of a 15-year-old who like if he didn’t like what I said it and I’m a very loud opinionated person uh you know my my head would go through a wall so um I wanted to get the hell out of that situation as fast as I could so we we went to the recruiter and we took the ASVAB and and uh after we took the you know took the test he the recruiter kind of pulled pulled us to the side he’s like you guys uh you guys scored in the kind of upper seven higher than the 75th percentile are you sure you want to go into a job that has a score requirement of the lower right 20 the 25th percentile and I was like keep keep keep talking uniformed man and so he’s like well there’s a couple more options that you qualifi for and so he started showing us video the first one he showed us was Counter Intelligence and I was like that was a trailer of people sitting in a tent looking at a computer screen not you not my gig I I want to be Action Jackson here yeah and the second one it was like explosions bomb suits robots and I was like you just checked literally every box I didn’t know I had let’s go yeah let’s go oh I’m guaranteed this yeah yeah you’re guaranteed it and enter into the hardest Academic School in the Department of Defense with an 85% drop out rate yeah oh yeah man it’s it’s over 50 tests and if you so you if you fail like you can get rolled all the you can get rolled back or just kicked out oh wow yeah yeah it’s it’s uh you not to get into like how the whole system works but it’s a very it’s a very rigorous selection process to really get to get to people who have the the cognitive capability to take on some of the most complex and dangerous problems that we have especially when we’re talking about counter Insurgency and that especially at that time in uh that was in like 2008 2009 when uh you know Iraq was entering that that really heavy IED phase um that that was the biggest threat that was facing our troops so hell yeah I was like yeah let’s do it yeah I love bombs I like explosions and uh you know that was all well and good but you know one of the things they don’t tell you going into EOD is how high the suicide rate is and EOD has one of the highest suicide rates in the entire Department of Defense because of that relationship to traumatic blasts it was interesting when you were telling me about this the other day I was shocked to hear that not only the blast but potentially you know what what is the cost benefit analysis done on the mental health that people like searching for these things I mean I I don’t like to step on cracks on the sidewalk Sam you know what I mean I’m like oh whoa hey that’s my mother’s spinal cord we’re playing with here so I mean just the the the compounding effects of not just what’s potentially going to happen but what I’m searching for what I’m walking over and who I’m potentially doing it with or not you know well there’s a big a big distinction to make there uh most of the time EOD techs are not searching we are responding to we are responding to found unless you’re in a special operations environment where you’re running with you know a team of Green Berets that that’s the scenario where they you know you get put at the front with the uh with the metal detector going around okay oh yeah okay that it’s all the wrist it’s all the wrist it’s all the wrist um it’s all the wrist in the ear you know we had talked earlier and I think we’ve talked um quite a bit about the connectivity and the Brotherhood that you had over there and maybe you can share for the viewers what that’s like I know we’ve had Sebastian Junger on the show he speaks to kind of hanging out with you guys and kind of just taking notes and how you guys are connecting and mental health is is generally pretty well establish and connected throughout those processes and so maybe touch on that a little bit for the viewers and then what it felt like coming home yeah uh that I mean that’s a great question so what what is it like to be in that deployed environment you would think that being deployed overseas in this combat zones in these high stress environments all the time would actually be really bad for your mental health but it turns out that the opposite is true you are over in you know basically you’re kind of living in a jail you know big big high Towers you know with Barb Wire the only difference is you’re the one with the guns even they’re on the inside yeah but you would you know you think that this would cause a lot of issues but the reason it doesn’t is because you’re around a bunch of your compatriots you’re around your brothers and you’re there for a shared Mission so you know we know that one of the the leading indicators of suicidality is that lack of purpose that loss of purpose and and I’ll get into that in a second but when you’re over there you have a mission you are there for a reason you are following direct command directives to execute this larger operational plan of the battle space that is incredibly good for your mental health in fact you know you might be under this stress but you’re all in it together there it is this glue that binds you to each other in a very very profound way um I’d be interested to see you know if there was any way to get inside the brains or measure the oxytocin that’s actually excreted by by uh troops during war it’ be really interesting to see if there’s an upregulation in that because you know you really kind of get that pair bonding with your your team and when you come back especially if you come back from that environment and then leave the military like that’s like taking that would be like the equivalent of taking a kid away you’re you’re losing your entire support structure because these you know these individuals the people on your team the people on your squad are who you you know eaten with you know slept in the same tent worked out with operated with in a dangerous environment and and got through the other side with like you know from a mental health perspective losing that [ ] off my arm first please yeah that’s what it sounds like man and you don’t you know I I can only relate it to like the relationships I had and do still have in like early recovery we’re fighting through this very very difficult thing lives are on the line certainly nobody’s shooting at us so not as intense but I remember like those are my brothers like we walked this path because we kind of needed food water and shelter together yeah and I love what you said It reminds me in Gabor me’s book The Myth of normal and he talks about pretty sure it’s myth of normal pretty sure it’s Gabor mon um but he talks about the mental health of uh London city center when in World War II they flew bombers over Great Britain they called it the blitz yeah they were literally bombing this city to shreds and psych visits before the blitz were up around 70% and when the blitz happened the psych visits were single digits 8% or something because now I need food water and shelter just the same as Sam does and it doesn’t matter how much money you have or don’t have we’re connected with family community and culture in this very intense way and that’s kind of what it reminds me of is this this coming together in a profound way that I don’t know that we can necessarily experience here State Side I I you know I think there’s a few places that we can uh Combat Sports is a great is a great place like you were you were in that you know we were talking about Jiu-Jitsu the other day so it’s a great place to find it kind of that shared struggle also business I mean yeah I I’m sure with you know you and your business partner I can tell you this me and the partners that I have in business like man you you get tight especially once you’ve gone through some really heavy [ ] together it it bonds you and and that’s an important thing like you are being a good mammal by a game with that and in being a good mammal you are creating a positive mental health outcome and and a good pair bond whether you like it or not yeah and it’s so important you know I was I was reading a study the other day maybe I shared it with you but you know we grow up thinking don’t do drugs don’t smoke cigarettes there was a study the other day I think it was one of the ivy schools who said that being disconnected from your brothers from family community and culture um is Sy symbolic and if not worse than smoking two packs of cigarettes a day yeah the loneliness epidemic yeah and so you guys come back having been like really rooted in this connection and you get back over here and you realize some things to just be extraordinarily disconnected and I wanted to move into what you started to learn about yourself what it took to get there and kind of what you’ve started to create um with some of the the modalities that You’ moved into yeah um yeah where do you want to start let’s start with I think not just the the disconnection when you got back home but maybe where you found yourself in that disconnection and where you started to move into your recovery yeah so I mean when I it really really hit me like when I had just gotten back from my second deployment I got hurt I got sent back early I lost lost that connection you know got into a new unit and and I was just I had an X fiance that kind of dear johned me while I was over there so complete loss of that unit like the support structure was fairly well gone and you know it it damn near caused me to kill myself like I had my 45 in my mouth ready to pull the trigger and that it was because of that and a few other reasons but at the end of the day like it was a couple of friends reaching out that saved my life and kind of got me on this path really introduced me to this path uh and it was MDMA that was the vehicle for that during that time period and and I went from you know having a a pretty I wouldn’t say like it wasn’t completely abusive but just like I could probably count on one hand how many times I got hugged by my dad as a kid like and the the man Had a Brain Injury like and a brain injury and sleep apnea so it can’t completely fault someone who’s in that compromised state but you know that [ ] doesn’t wash off sure yeah um and you know after that really started to I I so basically I’m sitting there I’m sitting there in my in my house at the time got my 45 in my mouth I’m about ready to pull the trigger it’s the day before day before Christmas uh Christmas Eve and I get a text message on my phone that was like Hey man come over we’re having to get together I was like oh [ ] this great all right cool well I’ll just I’ll shelf this for later and uh so I went I went over to one of my buddies house um um another bomb Tech and uh he had he had some pure MDMA we know CU we had a Ramen spectroscopy laser you guys in yeah you guys yeah got cool technology um he’s like hey man you’re [ ] up take what’s on this counter and pour some out sit down on that couch and tell me what’s bothering you and and I did and it was the that experience saved my life hands down no question I got to feel Joy for really the first time in my life just unadulterated joy and it literally it felt like someone took my soul out of my body washed it really well with bleach and stuck that [ ] back in wow and it it just changed my entire Paradigm because I used to be I used to be really Evangelical Christian I was thought I always thought the darline was telling the truth that you know drugs are putting holes in your brain yeah right and everybody who did it was a bad person oh yeah yeah really opened my eyes like oh no this isn’t the case and I had been on a Litany of of mental health drugs of psychiatric drugs plenty ssris beta blockers and everything the world was numb I was like I’m done and and I was having panic attacks all the time so not a good situation and this was like oh my God like there is there is a substance out there that can give me this peak into Bliss and the cool thing was that it wasn’t just the you know this oneandone experience afterwards was like I could breathe again and it gave me that space integration yeah it gave me that space to go okay maybe life’s not so terrible and not only is life’s not so terrible but I can I can claw this this scenario back into my favor and really use it uh and and I didn’t I didn’t really understand the mental health implications until later uh it was about five month it was about five months later when this whole thing just really hit me square in the chest and it was uh I was I was uh it was right before Memorial Day the weekend before I was talking to one of my mentors we’re in the motorpool just smoking and joking having a great time there a and I was the last one I ever talked to Neil at the unit that was the last time I ever saw him uh on Memorial Day walks out into his backyard and blows his head off with his three-year-old kid in the house and it just floored me and it’s like oh my God he was he was in that same spot and he didn’t get that text like I did he didn’t get to have that experience like I had and I know that if he had he’d still be alive I have no question about that and from that point forward it was like just out of that grief and out of that pain it’s like you know it wasn’t quite that the sky opened up there was just this little voice inside was like hey [ ] this is your job now like you’re going to learn everything you can about this and you’re going to do this for other people CU someone saved your life and we lost a really amazing dude true because this wasn’t available yeah and yeah that’s that was the pivot point that was it holy SM and from that on it’s just been how can we how can we treat traumatic brain injuries post-traumatic stress disorder depression anxiety and that that also bleeds into substance abuse how can we treat these things more effective how can we stop taking this monoamine approach to these complex issues and really just bring in the Cavalry like attack these problems from all sides just like we would attack an enemy mhm like I’m not just going to if you know if I’m in a if I’m in a war with an enemy am I just going to am I just going to use one howitzer no right no I’m going to bring in the Abrams Tanks I’m going to have artillery backing them we’ve got you know OverWatch from Air assets I’ve got my infantry and that model is you kind not to emerge mental health and War but it kind of is you know taking taking a force on Force approach to a force on Force problem and that’s what we do in in all the programs that I’ve founded since is let’s not look at this through a single lens because our brains and this is a quote from John Kell’s a CEO of s metric great great dude uh one of the Pioneers in neuroimaging here in Colorado and uh what he said to me really stuck out uh our brain is the most complex organ that we know of in the universe right now it is its own pharmaceutical company it reacts to stimuli it makes its own drugs in taking a monoamine approach to treating that complex system isn’t just stupid it’s bad medicine yeah yeah and it’s medicine that we’ve been doing here in the United States for a really long time and I even think back to 15 16 years ago in treatment oh yeah I mean we’re going in here you go here’s the box over your head that was one of like the biggest breasts of fresh air when I first sat down with you was you know you start talking about MDMA you know Peak started out 10 years ago of treating substance use disorder and all substances were bad we’re beginning to learn that that’s just not the truth and I love what you say about complex individuals we should treat them complexly and individually and each individual needs a certain type of RX and that’s what I loved connecting when you told me that you’re working with veterans that have experienced TBI have never had remission of symptoms their whole life or 10 years and then within 17 or 18 days because you’re treating them humanely complexly as they present there having remission of symptoms in a few weeks yeah that’s our average time our average time to to symptom remission and that’s you know for everybody who’s not aware of what symptom remission is that’s at least a 50% reduction in symptoms so we’re seeing more like 75 so we’re we’re having someone come in at the severe level when they’re deal you know dealing with post-traumatic stress disorder with depression with anxiety with with TBI they’re coming in scoring at that severe level and within 14 to 17 days they’re down to mild yeah and then within 21 days that typically that we see that number dropped to zero so like symptom gone yeah and that’s because we are treating the root cause and uh when it comes to traumatic brain injuries PTSD depression anxiety what I don’t hear people talking about is what all those things have in common and the one and the two things that those issues have in common in the brain is one they are highly inflammatory so they are causing an inflammatory Cascade in the brain and two they affect neural connectivity so we talk about PTSD if you were to look at the brain of someone with post-traumatic stress disorder what you would see if you could peel apart the layers and see the firing circuits is you would see an underactive prefrontal cortex and an underactive executive functioning Center and an overactive amydala so you are having your fight flight or freeze function the emotional center of the brain driving your experience constantly yeah and the thing is like we can do something about that we have we have the technology we we can rebuild those neural networks pretty quickly uh and it and it starts by one just taking the temperature down on that inflammatory process that’s going on in the brain and then encouraging the brain to start to rewire with more effective tools how do you do that yeah so you know in our programs we use a combination of ketamine infusion therapy hyperbaric oxygen therapy transcranial magnetic stimulation and culturally competent Psychotherapy so I want to break this break this down a little bit and then talk about why so why do we do it this way if you were to just try to build your own positive mental health outcome it’s like building a house you’re going to come to the table and you basically have a hammer some nails and some Lumber if you try to just build your own mental health outcome chances are you’re going to end up with a half rickety Shack and you know the big bad wolf being life is going to blow that son of a [ ] over pretty easily MH now we add therapy into that what do we do we’re we’re providing a blueprint right all right that’s great now I know how to build it but I’m still you know I’m hand jamming this thing never actually swung a hammer yeah yeah exactly I don’t even know how to swing a hammer so I’m hand jamming this thing it’s still going to take a long time and that is a great uh you know a great analogy for your neurons rewiring it it is going to take you a long time to do this on on yourself and that’s not to say that psychotherapy Y is not effective it’s a very very core piece of what we do but you’re trying to push the boulder up the hill if you’re not if you’re not using these other techniques so when we add in when we add in ketamine infusion therapy when we add in transcranial magnetic stimulation when we add in hyperbaric oxygen therapy now it’s it’s you’re showing up we’ve got power tools laid out we’ve got the blueprint right in front of you and we have a Contracting Company helping you to build this entire thing and that allows us to get to a better place faster and keep it there longer because that’s a nice thing about rewiring the brain is when you get these circuits instantiate in the brain it’s not like okay you stop doing therapy and they go away they don’t there is resilience built into the built into this human model and it’s really cool do you find the veterans because you know being in Colorado Springs for the last 10 years one thing I’ve learned in a pretty um intense way is that veterans are absolutely underserved and the resources are abysmal um do you find what I mean this it’s so lifechanging pretty quickly what is the response you’re getting from these I mean are they like are you can’t believe my ears aren’t ringing and I’m not I mean what kind of responses you getting in community from oh I mean like some of the Vets we’ve treated like I I’ve treated guys who have had who have woken up with a migraine every single day cuz they got blown out of a Humvee in Iraq by an IED like waking up every day for 19 years with a headache imagine waking up every day in the first thought in your head is I’m in pain well I I don’t know about you but uh I wouldn’t play that game for very long no not at all and we’ve been able to take take individuals like that who are you know severe brain fog issues controlling their mood and that’s again because this inflammatory process and just completely wipe those symptoms away because we’re treating the root cause and especially with traumatic brain injury with traumatic brain injury if you are not treating the underlying neurobiology of that issue you are wasting the patient’s [ ] time I love that you said that yeah I love that you said that and if you it’s just a simple fact the brain is in a h it is a hypoxic injury and and I’ll explain why so I’ve got a nice little analogy to make this simple so the blood vessels in your brain especially in certain parts of the brain are very very small they’re so small that a single red blood cell can pass along that vessel at a Time Imagine This like we’re here in Colorado Springs you’re driving up to Aspen you’re going over Liberty Pass you know that that road is super narrow oh Independence Independence Pass yeah you’re driving over Independence Pass it’s pretty much a single aid and there’s a cliff on the other side so you’re you are imagine you’re the red blood cell so you’re a truck that’s full of oxygen and that is your only Pathway to The Village on the other side that Village on the other side depends on your delivery in order to heat their homes in the winter so if all of a sudden there’s a rock slide because of this inflammatory process your truck ain’t getting through so what happens on the other side what happens in Aspen Village well the cell they’re not just going to die they’re not just going to freeze to death so they the cells switch over from burning natural gas which is what you’re bringing to burning their wood stoves that’s a that’s going from cellular respiration which is a clean way to make energy to what’s called anerobic glycolysis that is how cancer cells make energy so that burning that wood stove if you can imagine all these all these cells all these houses in Aspen are burning these wood stoves they’re increasing the amount of carbon in that Valley and that has negative consequences to the cells in that space to the people that are living there they’re going to end up with more issues that’s exactly what happens in the brain so what can we do about that process well we can one we can clear the inflammatory aspect with things like ketamine with things like hyperbaric oxygen therapy but the other thing we can do is instead of relying on that truck we can create a pipeline that’s what hyperbaric oxygen therapy does it hyper oxygenates your blood plasma so we are no longer we are no longer worried about the truck it’s not a single Lane it goes it’s not a single Lane it’s a pipeline now because you’ve hyper oxygenated the liquid that that red blood cell travels in and you can get it you can get the oxygen saturation of that blood plasma high enough that it has enough O2 in it enough oxygen in it to do the same job as the truck as the red blood cell so you can take an area that has been starved of oxygen that has been in this anerobic state and bring it back into uh a fully aerobic State that’s really beautiful and so basically nothing gets jammed up everything moves through and you’re getting the oxygen or what whatever you need and then your body the great thing is then your body can start to heal itself this isn’t like weren this isn’t rocket science this isn’t rocket surgery I know I used to do rocket surgery this is neuroscience like this is biology and it’s really wonderful and when you especially when you take into account proper nutrition proper exercise you can literally give the body and the Brain all of the resources that they need to heal the injury yeah man we’re talking like with combat veterans First Responders with and talking about healing mhm healing right you don’t we don’t hear that a lot in our medical model it’s we’re in the business for repeat business and come back for more we we’re we’re all about response not about remission MH like no that you know there are enough sick people that we do not have to play that game yeah let’s play get better next get better next there’s a line out the door around the block and down the interstate of people who need this yeah who people people who are just crying out for help for something that can take that burden off and then help them get to the next level and that’s not to say that anything that we do is a magic pill you still have to do the work you’re still showing up to build the house if you don’t pick up a hammer and a saw nobody else is going to on that in that team right you know in your biology so that’s not to put the onus on the treatments themselves I think that’s also a trap that a lot of people can fall into is like oh well you know this one thing didn’t work yeah well it’s not a magic pill you still got to put in the effort what was it that you experien differently than what you’re organizing for the people that need it the most when you went and tried to seek services for your mental health I mean I I ran into the traditional the traditional model like I got thrown ssris um that beta beta blockers was on uh trazodone for a while and it didn’t make anything better it made everything gray and then when I when I got introduced to these therapies you know just really started seeking them out I started a nonprofit for veterans who were struggling and started to kind of piece together all of these disperate pieces they already existed you know ketamine TMS hyper bear but no one had put them together i’ never heard until I met you yeah and like no one had put them all together and I was like man I bet I bet if we just stacked these we could get some really amazing results really fast and so raised money to try it I I tried on myself first uh oh I was like all of a sudden lights hey lights are on and I am home and I’m happy about it and then my my former business partner at the time um he uh he had he had uh been blown up in Afghanistan then got in a car wreck where he lost Consciousness then he fought professional movie thae kickboxing for a year and was having severe postconcussive migraines 5 to six hour long episodes throwing up he’s in so much pain oh my go and we put him through uh we put him through a protocol that we helped develop and gone all that [ ] was gone yeah and that was another real big light bulb moment I like oh wait you know hey I may not be a doctor but we’re on to something here and I bet you we can put together a team around this concept and that’s what we did you know we put started the outpatient Psychiatry Clinic called MPA up in Denver and then that you know that’s still rocking and rolling and then we also have Patriot PowerUp which is you know our inpatient treatment program up in Idaho we can serve the entire United States and we’re doing all this stuff under the banner of the VA Community Care Network that’s beautiful and and are you finding that the VA is coming in and supporting your guys’ efforts because it’s so efficacious you know they’re starting to okay uh you know we’re we’re starting to show the results the program’s only been around for a year sure uh the current environment that we’re in the VA is is over budget right now and you know one of the primary one of the primary causes at least what they’re saying the primary causes is of that is Runaway community care costs um and you know unfortunately we get put in that bucket even though we’re doing what nobody else is doing so it’s been a little bit of a struggle but like I said the providers are coming around we’re seeing the efficacy we’re seeing those 45 degree angles you know increase in executive function complete relief from symptoms we’re seeing these guys come back like come back to life and people are starting to take note yeah it’s a big deal what you’re doing in the community man and I really um connect with it and value it and want to be close to it CU I I can remember when we opened Peaks and my brother coined the core value to disrupt the industry through quality of care and like what that meant to me oh yeah and was so near and dear to my heart and I feel it even even more so with you and with your mission and your vision and the minds spawn and your certainly your resume and the people that you connect with like what is your your goal your dream what do you see happening and where do you find yourself in that process yeah uh I mean I I want to improve the way that mental health is treated in this country uh and move toward WS value based care like that’d be amazing yeah I I think that there there is the see the incentives are aligned right if we can treat people more effectively not only can we make their lives so much better in a relatively short period of time if you think about it like you know anywhere from 30 to 60 days that’s yeah I mean dude one to two months come on like in one to two months your life could be so so much better than it is now you can be feeling better and engaging with your environment instead of retracting from it that’s huge yeah you know we have that right here and also people who are feeling better and not in their deep dark cave or having panic attacks all the time or suffering from substance use disorder they use the medical system less they take care of their themselves more what does an insurance company want right spend less money they want you to pay your premiums and not go to the doctor yeah less the visits yeah yeah less ER visits you know less less of these things so you it’s I I think that it makes a lot of sense from every perspective this can be a win-win win-win win across the board we can get people in we can make them better and with a relatively small upfront investment from the insurance companies that I I’m including the VA in this we can stem those Downstream costs because Healthcare is one of the things that’s going to bankrupt our country if we keep on the same track and mental Health’s a huge part of that yeah and I love what you said about it too because you’re fair in your assessment you say it’s it’s not just a payer Source problem there’s a provider problem and the provider problem has the onus on them as well you know to step up and put the not can treatment and create these drop downs for individuals who deserve complex thoughtful curious processes and so I think just as much as we got to continue to put our best foot forward in that integrous foot with what is best for humans um then we can move into this kind of like you know they’ve been saying it for years man as far as value based care and this kind of thing and so we’ve been keeping outcomes for the last five years I think we’re one of only 15 treatment programs in the United States that’s not a nonprofit that lists those outcomes online that’s insane we want to share this message that’s insane you know and we want you to ask good questions yeah you know and so if you’re a viewer out there ask good questions make sure you’re in front of a great provider well I think it’s really important like we should demand as constituents hey you I saw an article the other day that you know the VA was talking about how much better it was than than Community Care and I was like all right cool where are your outcomes I I would love to see them I can tell you right now if I drive down to the if I drive down to the Phoenix Arizona VA and Survey some of the folks in there they’re not going to have the same answers that you put on your website yeah like let’s let’s all get on board with transparency around outcomes yep that’s you know hiding this stuff in a black box is exactly how we got here exactly yeah we need to open open up this dialogue around what makes people better and bring our data together so it’s it’s just it’s a matter of not there’s no way any one organization just like any one person has the answer do I have a a great program a couple great programs absolutely do you have a great program absolutely is my program going to work for every single person in your program no insane like but together we can put together this cohesive picture of what real valuable care looks like real outcomes based care and I think that there are real solutions to billing along those lines yeah that don’t cause favoritism that that don’t put one program over another like we can you know be on the level together yeah I think that’s a beautiful thing man and and and I know it’s so needed and valued specifically in our community here in Colorado Springs I’ve never been around in my entire life more combat veterans more people that have served our country more people that have servant hearts and just just want to show up and at the same time have had a tough time connecting in community as a result of the time they spent um you know in combat and serving their country and so so grateful to have you on the show where do we where do we find you what’s the website yeah so you know if you’re interested in learning more about our offerings uh in the Denver area mindspa denver.com uh you can look us up on there see what we do uh get in contact with us uh you know at that clinic you know we’re doing the Hyperbaric ketam infusion therapy trans cranial magnetic stimulation talk therapy and medication management uh and we are open to just about every major insurance carrier all the big ones um up to an including tracker in the VA and then if you’re a veteran who is suffering with you know PTSD TBI uh sorry PTSD TBI depression anxiety uh and substance abuse disorder to a secondary degree Patriot PowerUp is is a program that is a part of va Community Care we are doing Hyperbaric ketamine TMS culturally competent therapy in a nice homebased U homebased uh inpatient setting it’s it’s very intimate it’s very nice uh it’s a non- lockdown facility and you can come to there if you get a referral through the VA you can come to our program at zero cost wow yeah and and take part in better outcomes sure that’s a big deal zero cost through the VA only you can do 30 60 days there you can transition Community Based resource and move and groove in that direction we’re just getting started here man I’m going to bring you back on for other episodes I want to kind of get into the the real nuts and bolts of what you’re doing in a different episode but it’s just been uh a humbling experience to have you on I appreciate your service I appreciate how you show up in the community with a whole heart we need more individuals and professionals like you moving into Community with true cause and purpose thank you so much for coming on until next time my people peace [Music] you

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Episode 129Focusing on Quality and Care First with Cynthia BakerWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/45etBky2EbkListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Chris Burns sits with Cynthia Baker, Chief Clinical Officer of The Raleigh House, in an open discussion surrounding the treatment industry. With professional insight and personal testimonies, this conversation spans from focusing on individualized approaches to care and the clear benefits of looking into the role that nutrition plays not only during a treatment stay but also in everyday life. A huge thank you to the Raleigh House and Cynthia for being disruptors in this industry and for sharing insights and information on how we can continue the best experience for clients as we walk them through their recovery.

Talking Points1. Meet Cynthia Baker (1:05) 2. The Raleigh Houses approach to care (2:30) 3. Disrupting the industry (4:35) 4. Individualized approach to care (6:50) 5. Center for Integrated Behavioral Health (11:33) 6. Addiction and mental health conditions (14:33) 7. Nutrition in recovery (15:15) 8. Cynthia’s “why” (22:30) 9. Closing thoughts (25:16) Quotes

“Whether they are coming in for substance use or not, we know that the evidence used to say that mental health, addiction, and somewhere in the middle is co-occurring. The evidence says that’s out the door now. That it is basically one whole grouping”-Cynthia Baker, The Raleigh House

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -129- Transcripts[Music] hey everybody and welcome to another amazing and exciting episode of Finding Peaks Yours Truly president founder chief executive officer Chris burn so grateful to be here today in this 24 hours with Cynthia Baker the chief clinical officer of Raleigh House of Hope so grateful to have you hi it’s good to see you and thank you for having me absolutely it was um I got to meet you it was probably a few months ago yes right we’re sitting down at a dinner that I got invited to by the Raleigh House of Hope and it was entrepreneurs and business owners and Executives coming together to talk about really really tough issues and things that are going on and how we’re growing together and um I’m just reminded of kind of this subtle connection that we had you know I I’d sometimes get in rooms and I talk a lot and I look around and you’re one of the individuals that I really felt connected with throughout that process I think kind of our mission and our vision both personally and professionally are really closely uh in alignment and I’m so grateful to have you on the show today and if those of you who don’t know Cynthia she is a licensed clinical social worker as well as carries a Doctorate in Education yeah awesome awesome so grateful to have you on the show and one of the big things that I wanted to kind of chat about a little bit is like you have a wildly formidable resume i’ I looked at your LinkedIn I looked at what you ran VP of this doing this you just told me you had a digital Mark digital company early on in your career and what is it about the Raleigh house that kind of Drew your attention um in that direction what keeps you motivated there that’s a great question and I would say Chris I felt the same about just really connecting during this dinner and just talking about sole Proprietors and Founders and having the people at that table that was an amazing dinner um and so you know Chris I think I think in my heart has always been around the idea of people who Who start something and they have a vision and a passion for it and so I think it’s really um really was a big deal for me to kind of choose the Raleigh house the Raleigh house chose me um but you know it’s it’s something that um I can only I can’t imagine myself doing anything else so that’s really really cool and something I really appreciated about the Raleigh house over all of these years and you all have been in business I want to say two or three years longer than us so kind of came came into the market at a very very similar time I’ve always loved how Raleigh house puts clients and individuals first and then wraps a treatment program around that how do you guys do that it seems like something that’s been missed so often in our industry but how do you see them putting a business model forward like that being able to carry it out in a really sustainable way yeah I think it was really around the visioning you know of our CEO founder you know Eric laap and so but it’s you know it’s it’s the idea of the pathways of you know substance use Mental Health and Trauma and so it’s it’s kind of developed right it’s it’s it’s evolved over the years and so I think it’s about you know having a location where you know Raleigh house started on Raleigh Street as a sober living you know so so it’s evolved and grown over the years but I think it’s really been related to the vision of how do we successfully help people how do we you know make them um how do we help them with their healing and rewriting their story right and so I think that’s something the Raleigh house seems um has been aept with long before I ever arried and you know it’s more about now taking what the core of the Raleigh house is and then taking that and projecting that forward and growing that access right for more people um to be able to have those Services that’s really really cool and I don’t know if you know this but I had a one of my best friends about a year ago um was struggling with some mental health stuff and chose to call the Raleigh house home for 30 days and he went in and and he P his family paid cash for those services and he had been to 35 treatment programs prior to that he’s been in South Florida he’s been in northern Arizona Southern California he’s Texas you name it and when he got out of the Raleigh house he said to me that’s the best treatment program I’ve ever been through boy they will not let you get away with not working on your trauma but that is the most intentional treatment program I’ve ever been a part of so it brings me to one of our core values which is to disrupt the industry through quality of care how do you see Raleigh house in your long-standing career really aiming to disrupt the industry one quality resource at a time one individual at a time how do you see that evolving from your seat you know it might be a bit like what you’re doing with Peaks right because it’s that idea of being Peaks we are the Raleigh house we are the r house and so we’re disrupting by being who we are so it’s not only the evidencebased cognitive behavioral therapy acceptance that a DBT all the evidence-based work and then let’s just throw in these other expressive therapies let’s put in the ecoin you know the animal assistance Psychotherapy let’s use more variety around what’s going to really help that person right grow and learn that it’s not one size fits-all that it’s the true person centered individualized plans for these clients and so I think that that’s something that has really impressed me about Raleigh house and really aligns with my career yeah really I love that too because I remember in my um personally going through my mental health journey in the beginning and and and people I would come into treatment and they would ask questions like how’s that working out for you and I would just be like not good like I feel so bad in the way in which we used to communicate just 15 short years ago is people come in to care put a box over their head head we say these certain things and these certain terms and we send them on this path to community integration and a one-size fits-all path and for so many years I remember sitting there and being like I guess if this is the way I have to do it but just feeling so unsafe and so scared I love what the Raleigh house does because it speaks to people and humans coming into a process individually yeah and for sure Peaks has really built a name as well over the years is like from an from V to EOB from ver verification of benefit to explanation of benefit can we suit up and show up and be curious can we listen first and solve later and I think that’s something that’s been missed but we’ve been really grateful to connect with the Raleigh house who’s our number one referral in this state for out of network cash pay folks how have you guys been able to continue with that individualized approach yeah I think it’s just going to be it’s a part of our mission and I think that you know the universe is going to take care of this right ultimately however we figure out you know we’re here and we’re we’re growing and so we know that there whatever magic ingredient it is it’s truly about it’s about being true to yourself and being true to the vision right of of what the Raleigh house is because if it was something else that was a canned approach right or or something else it might be one of the other right private organizations that is not surviving or thriving you know like like ours um you you know I think one of the things I would say is that I would like to see more disruption in the industry right yeah you know you were talking about disruption and I think about you know pairing that with Innovation right pairing that with the idea of um you know uh individualized care right and being able to um take a look at all these different like we still have to work within systems we still get paid we still survive you know we we Thrive we have employees who we you know we pay we have great leaders and mid leaders and clinical directors and all these other directors that we you know that support our mission right but it is going to be about how going forward you know Statewide nationally how as CEO run organizations and private organizations how do we disrupt an industry that is kind of you know right it’s on its way to the black and white one way no way and we’re talking about people on the streets Y and we’re talking about people leaving care and they’re not getting what they need and it’s constant cycle right in our country around Health Care Mental Illness the stigma of substance use and mental illness um I I still think we have ai at all levels um to support our organizations I think as Leaders we have a responsibility yeah I really love I’ve actually I’ve s I’ve said disrupt the industry probably a thousand times in the last couple years um but I’ve never heard anybody say we need to pair that with Innovation because it’s not and I think I’ve gotten into some hot water with this years ago when we first kind of got that core value was like I just want to be disruptful to be disruptful because this is BS and it’s not going well right you know and so I’m I’m kind of spinning my wheels like and I’m not going anywhere so I love what you said it’s this very intentional approach to disrupting I’m not going to do it just to Flap my wings it’s actually we’re going to support it with Innovation client care and outcomes that’s the way to do it and I love what you’re saying let’s let’s do it in a professional way but let’s continue to raise the flag to say hey this isn’t going well and I think we have a way into treating people in our programs and in our communities where they actually feel seen valued and heard which is really nice and I can remember when I first felt that and it was in a treatment program and it was surrounded by great professionals and I was like why are these people being so nice to me and it wasn’t because I was paying I was on scholarship so be clear I feel like our clients say that sometimes too it’s like kindness is supposed to be a part of this right and so people come in and they’re like oh my gosh why are you being so nice to me and it tells me they have a story and a story of which needs to be treated with compassion empathy and presence so I just I love what the Raleigh house is doing because when I look at the state of Colorado specific and it used to kind of be a Peaks and Raleigh house kind of doing this thing but I think you’re the the only ones if I’m not mistaken one of the only ones who’s still providing not just the level of care but the model and an out of network side of things and still thriving so to your point when the heart is true the universal conspire to support you rich role not me I I think that’s what’s happening at the Raleigh house I think your clients are some of your greatest marketers um and I get to hear the Raleigh house Praises not even so much by your professionals by the people that have walked through the program it’s been really really cool and to hear a friend of mine that I got subed with 15 years ago say something like that and I know the programs he’s been to it means a lot and so there’s actually two places in the state of Colorado where I would refer a family member Peaks can’t do that there’s a conflict so that’s one off the list Raleigh house is the second I mean that with a whole heart thank you absolutely because I love the way that you guys move into Innovation and speaking of innovation you guys just open a new facility yes tell me a little bit about that Denver TCH Center beautiful area absolutely um it’s downstairs from our outpatient which is you know our PHP IOP um on Quebec Street and that it’s called the center for integrated Behavioral Health I can only tell you all over the last four to six months how many times we’ve changed the name how we reworked the name um and that’s the cool part about visioning when you get to start something right so it’s the name it’s it’s what’s the Acuity level who are we going to serve um you know it’s it’s been an ongoing kind of Thrill Ride for me I mean to be able to come into this it was so attractive to me to be able to you know to to be a part of that and to implement and plan and strategize around a whole new facility so it’s kind of like when you get into you know when you’re getting in Boots on the ground and you’re in the dayto day and you’re trying to work on processes and improvements you know um there can be a little frustration right there can be a little bit of of heightened uh there’s a lot of investment in this right and and both financially and professionally by lots and lots of people this wasn’t you know one person who did all this but you know I think um there’s more to come on this and and we’re continuing to look and evolve with the services that we want to deliver again the person centered care components um we are featuring mental health but we also have the license for detox okay um and substance use as well so we’ve had a blend so far okay um we’ve had eight clients since our opening three weeks so do detox in that facility as well yes oh wow cool and we’ve been able to um retain U every client except one client that really you know kind of made a decision it wasn’t time for treatment okay um and so these things happen but it’s that idea that we were able to Anchor a community together very quickly that tells you something about what the Raleigh house has done before that we could pay you know take forward while also innovating was something that was a little different right in a little just a whole different environment than a ranch right I love that the city you know and you know it’s lots of windows but it’s a and it’s just a it’s a beautiful place and we look forward to you coming to see can’t wait to visit um later on this month and that is really Innovative and you’re speaking to something that Peaks has moved into um with our new facility it’s like this idea that we treat suffering together and oftentimes people come in they’ll be like where’s your substance use people where’s your mental health people and it’s like we have found over the last since we’ve opened the facility about a year and a half enough like people anchor into the process just the same we we all understand that Chris at least I understand about my history is like Chris Burns right leg was tapping I couldn’t sit still when I was in fifth grade long before I ever touched a substance and so right uh here goes a mental health disorder and substance use disorder is a mental health disorder and so we’ve brought them together and we’ve had pretty phenomenal results and so I love to hear that in your new facility like you’re taking this Innovative measure to say hey like we’re going to move into this and your outcomes are speaking to it and this community you know whether they’re coming in for substance use or not we know that you know the evidence Ed to say right mental health addiction and then somewhere in the middle is a co-occurring the evidence says that’s out the door now that literally right it’s basically one whole you know grouping of people that if they’re using substances but their mental health is primary right they’re using some sort of a substance to medicate or whatever that looks like and so it was really interesting watching this small community that was so Blended like that and really working together and I could see them even during clinical programming that they were they were really you know really grabbing on to the evidencebased things but then the other piece Chris is the pro recovery nutrition and the movement work I have a yoga person you know recreational therapist who’s doing yoga trauma informed kind of you know all these different pieces around movement and we knew because we didn’t have the outdoor space of the ranch that we needed that right you know we needed we needed to have kind of the movement work and have somebody really working with them after clinical that has been so amazing and then the other piece was the pro recovery nutrition so when you look at nutrition you know the high protein low sugar low Dairy you know gluten-free you’re feeding the brain you know you’re you’re getting healthier you’re coming in kind of yellow or gray right I’m watching the color you know in these clients at the ranch especially and you know at the center as we continue to evolve so you know at Watkins rants we have a chef there and so all the you know all the foods are freshly you know uh made we have a lot of catering in different pieces at the center because of the city location but we’re really having similar results um you know um Eric laap is is a professional and and has a background and you know working in um holistic nutrition and the amino acids and all the components so we’re kind of stepping in back into some of this in addition to food and using using some of those efforts I have a a nutritionist on board who’s an independent contractor she has groups every week with residential and out patient clients um and also we’ll do individual assessments and you know that real difference between a holistic nutritionist is they really get that whole high protein you know and they get all the under the understand all those components so um and they they adapt to that so that’s been amazing as well and so we’re really trying to specialize and have some specialty areas excuse me that makes me makes us different has it really does and you’re touching on something that’s very near and dear to my heart I remember three years ago I went into um one of our leadership meetings and it was just when we started cooking for clients you know we were outpatient levels of care and then we got a chef and a culinary team and I just I guess I had learned how beneficial it was for my recovery and I went into a leadership meeting about 12 laders and these are doctors and psychiatrists far more knowledgeable than me about everything and I just said what informs the food that we feed our clients yeah because it looks good looks real good but I just have in it was almost like exorcism people’s heads started spinning they’re hiding their drinks or throwing their food on the ground because it’s this real primal thing that people don’t want to talk about a lot and they don’t want to move into and especially when people are suffering from shame and the microcosm of addiction or mental Health whatever it might be the last thing we want to do is but this is a supportive tool yeah I’m a big believer that like we can leave a lot of this on the table and get some sunlight and some good nutrition and walk together and we will accomplish things we never thought were possible yeah so I love that you guys are doing that and frankly one of the greatest presentations on any website that I’ve ever seen is the culinary on your site yes fresh fruit and vegetables and Gardens and they grow it on site and clients were goes back years that’s all things that you know that that I think Eric really took the lead on those things and I think that was just so incredibly special when you think about what did we do different or what are we doing different people in general don’t want to leave treatments so much when they start not feeling the Cravings because you know in addition to the Psychiatry and and Matt and that we all have to have for support for some of these folks you know the natural pieces they can take forward with them through the Continuum outside our services let’s hope that they can take some of that forward and and not go back to the McDonald’s burger right and and we know there’s a cost occurred incurred with these things but at least they can learn more about it so the education compound I think is really important too yeah the education is huge because I wish somebody would you know may have come to me because I was thinking in my early recovery I’m like waking up at 6:00 am. and going for a walk that seems hard yeah but I think what’s really hard is a my ability to zoom out and see things as they actually are and what be might be more more difficult for me is you know living a life 30 years of sobriety and at 65 being cut open because I wasn’t informed to these opportunities from a nutritional perspective to inform not just quality of life physical health mental health spiritual health overall well-being so you just feel better when you do it even though it is and was for me a very very tough topic to talk about you know that’s interesting you know my um my dad um you know he’s passed away now but the idea is that you know he was he was an alcoholic and I had more alcoholic family and mental a lot of mental illness in the family and you know you were talking about that Discovery you know of why am I doing this and you and I kind of prepped and we talked about that and I was just thinking about as you were talking about how healthy he thought he was because he worked out every day but he had this awful cholesterol he had empyema he had heart problems and he eventually passed away of a heart attack and guess what none of those things had to happen had he really been healthy right you know nutritionally healthy but the way people grow up the way you know the new generation the old generation as well and what what they put in their bodies so I’m not an expert in this area but I’m absolutely learning you know from the Raleigh house you know is is and I’m watching these clients Thrive and get healthier you make such a good point though because we grew up kind of lower socioeconomic situation and I remember we had to buy the when we got cereal it was the big bags yeah not the boxes the boxes were more expensive and so instead of Frosted Flakes you get Joey’s flakes or whatever it might be right and I remember thinking as a kid I want the freaking Frosted Flakes so I get sober 2008 turns out when you don’t spend money on that stuff you have a couple resources even when you work and I remember going to the grocery store the first time Frost flakes Salsbury steak all the stuff I never had that all my friends who had resources did and then it turns out that stuff’s good for you right so bad for you and and the milk like oh holy crap she couldn’t do anything worse in the morning to eat a b of cereal I know like like your total gut health is blown out the door by it you know to learn that all these Foods I couldn’t afford growing up aren’t good for you right yeah I grew up I grew up um quite poor too and I I just remember the oatmeal every morning get know yeah so yeah I’m right there with you well it’s been just extraordinary having you on the show I I wanted to as I do with most of my guests just kind of end with one one last question and I think I know the answer I’m very much in alignment with it but for the viewers like you know why do you do this this is this is tough work it’s very rewarding work if you’re passionate about it but what is your why what’s the foundation of that where this passionate energy comes from yeah I wish I had your energy by the way I tend to be a little more [Laughter] manic well it’s it’s a pleasant oh awesome thank you thank you Chris you’re amazing um so you know my why goes back a ways right you know sometimes when we’re younger we don’t know who we are we make decisions we’re kind of floating through I raised children I raised daughters you know was married we had a small business went back to graduate school thinking I would have this next career and I’m a social worker and I’m gonna you know develop programs and you know and all these things but then there’s you know I I always talk about being it feels like I was from privilege at that point because I really didn’t see all the suffering for a while until I really looked inside myself and then I looked at my own family with the history of mental illness and substance use and then it was like I realized what a generational and you know harmful deadly stigma that has been on substance use and mental health and addiction right both that you know has harmed people right it’s cost them their lives and so it’s it’s so incredibly serious so once you know it’s like once you look at the big picture and then you look at the per you know the individual you’re realizing how wrong things are and how much there is to fix and so I think it’s been really good for me to realize when you think about these things that it’s not that human being it’s really a system right it’s really all the things that makes that human being worse and doesn’t help them yeah and then also just people feeling shame and blame and I I think that’s just some of the ugliest feelings that people shouldn’t have to feel um so I feel really passionate about the idea of people having access to services and so that can be part of an organization be a leader in an organization where I can increase that access because I’ve been other roles that I could not and then I spent 10 years in aging where I could and we served you know 1500 nursing homes and we you know we did some really awesome work and so everywhere I go I want to take that energy and but I also want to you know instill the kindness and the culture that you’re everyone’s why right we’re all on the same page and we’re here to ultimately help that client right and we’re here for the clients um so I just um you I really like developing people training and development of people to help them in these roles that are so difficult for them so I would say my why really stems from family you know and less my personal experience but more around learning about myself that’s a beautiful and well articulated why I I remember growing up thinking I knew about substance use because it was in my family and I grew up you know I was in family program at S 2 s at 7 years old 9 years old 11 years you know all these ages and I remember they would say things about my mother like you know she’s an addict so that equals a plus b equals c and you’re like oh that sucks so my mom’s an addict my whole life I grew up being like you’re doing this thing to me yeah and you’re not showing up I was hanging out with my mom six months ago and for the first time in my life life I realized she struggled with depression and she used substances to make sense of that hole that she was in and in that moment after 38 years on this planet I saw my mom clearly wow and so I appreciate your why it’s very near and dear to my heart our mission and our vision who we aim to help and walk with one day at a time there’s a story behind every individual and I’m grateful the day that peak’s recovery and Raleigh House of Hope is in alignment seeing those individuals clearly thank you Chris thank you so much Cynthia it’s been a pleasure until next time my beautiful people peace [Music]

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Episode 128Shining Bright: Sparkle’s Inspirational Recovery JourneyWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/d8UCTfB1GGgListen NowDescriptionWe are preparing to celebrate 10 Years of Peaks Recovery in September! To commemorate this special episode, Chris brings PRC Alumni, community leader, and industry disruptor Sparkle Lindsay to the show! Sparkle’s inspiring story and messages of hope shine brightly as we take the time to highlight aspects of her journey- from her first reactions to Peaks and the program to bringing attention to the small moments that she attributes to turning points in her life. Thank you so much, Sparkle, for sharing your fantastic story with us and continuing to be a motivational and integral person to so many. For more information on Sparkle, check out sparklelindsay.com.

Talking Points1. Introduction to Sparkle (0:45) 2. Sparkle’s story (1:50) 3. A turning point (6:40) 4. Sparkle’s experience at Peaks (11:40) 5. The power of a scholarship (18:30) 6. The “feel” of Peaks (23:40) 7. Embracing discomfort (27:46) 8. The power of self-reflection (32:58) 9. Asking for help (33:58) 10. Creating and maintaining connection (37:35) 11. Being a “we” in recovery (45:50) 12. Reflecting on the journey (50:20) 13. sparklelindsay.com (57:50) Quotes

“You guys challenged us on so many different levels. On levels, that gave us an opportunity to do something with the tools we were given while we were there. So it wasn’t, Here are some tools for when you leave, it was, let’s watch you put these tools into action before you leave” -Sparkle Lindsay, PRC Alumni

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -128- Transcripts[Music] hey everybody and welcome to another exciting amazing and miraculous episode of Finding Peaks your host president founder and chief executive officer Chris Burns formerly known as recovery cheerleader I am joined today by a great friend of mine colleague professional recovery human Sparkle Lindsay so grateful to have you Sparkle how you doing it’s good to be here doing so good and you guys would probably be shocked to learn that sparkle and I have just been sitting here shooting the stuff for the last 30 minutes we haven’t even B we get the show going but I I cannot wait to highlight for the viewers where Sparkle was where she’s at today and where she’s going I think it’s a very powerful story of a lot of one days at a time and um she’s a Peaks alumni we’re in our 10th year celebrating our 10 year anniversary and Sparkle just celebrated 5 years in long-term recovery I mean I was just saying she’s been in recovery as long half as long as we’ve been in business right you know um just really really cool to have you here so thank you for joining us today my friend thank you for having me and I do think they probably think we talked longer than we should have anyway I’ve had a couple guests are like man they just don’t shut up yeah for sure um what I wanted to highlight five years ago in Peaks recovery you know the picture was a lot different we were Extended Care we’ve always been gender specific but I just kind of wanted you to highlight for the viewers you know what was it like where were you at what was it like kind of surrendering we talked a little bit about that before and making a commitment to walk through a wildly big authentic and robust recovery process you know uh for me being a the oldest of five I mean obviously I have three brothers and a sister I love them dearly um and all of us have this this past of being athletes and we all have full-right scholarships to play a sport and um we all played those Sports we all have degrees um and so being the oldest um they really looked up to me you know during that time so Pride was a lot of what was in my way um I talk a lot about you know in a lot of my YouTube videos being the fixer and uh I really realized later on in my recovery how intense being the fixer was to myself because I was fixing everybody else but me so this journey you know for me really started from realizing that I just couldn’t do it by myself I couldn’t do it by myself I thought I could um I tried multiple ways to get sober I kept secret so that I wouldn’t tell people what was wrong because I was Sur afraid of what people would think of me especially me being this this High intense executive um being a part of such a great family um um not even really looking like I even was a drinker or anything like that and just always holding myself to this standard this OCD this Perfection thing that I later on found out some of my wise to my usage you know and I just didn’t you know I really was like I don’t need treatment I can handle it I’m okay um you don’t worry about me I got you you know that whole I want to help everybody else but in all reality I was distracting myself from myself right and then before you know it I I mean there was just these moments where I was battling a form of chemo because I was diagnosed with lupus been diagnosed with five autoimmune conditions and at one point I was giv myself shots of tequila and taking shots of chemo to make it and I was like either way you could die so you’re doing them both yeah and I was getting I was just really sick and um for me so many different things happen right um I ended up in jail a few times um I had an employee kill himself in front of me um um and that I spiraled I spiraled and then after all of that when I thought I was going to be let go um I was brought into the office and um promoted to 125k and uh I just remember sitting in in the in the room that day because I thought I was going to get fired I was like take a few shot shooters and I’m going to just get out of here and I looked and the guy’s like turn it over you know and I’m like why these people look happy you know turned it over and they said 125k and uh everything got quiet all these people around me and they thought I was going to be ecstatic and I started thinking in my head I said well this could cover my addiction for real I could we’ll be all right we’re good you know and uh and then I started thinking like I’ve been telling these people that I haven’t been feeling well for a long time and they haven’t really been listening but the numbers were blowing up and uh I just said you know what I think I’m going to turn it down and I I I did you see how I’m doing my hand I’m still doing that right um and they’re looking at me like what and I said you know nothing is fun when you feel like you’re in a room yelling as loud as you can to a bunch of people and no one’s listening listening I said and if I take this money I’m going to die I said it may not mean that much to you cuz obviously I’m replaceable I said but no amount of money is worth my life so of course I get up and I’m like yeah you know I did good forgot what door uh I came through so that was fun I’m like this they’re like the right one and I’m getting a little tipsy cuz I took Shooters before I went in there and I’m like H so I get to the car and I’m like what am I gonna do well let’s just go to Blackhawk and let’s just spend money end up in jail so I end up in jail that same night same night end up in jail and I just remember sitting there and this voice came to me and it said no one’s coming no one’s coming and I was like I can’t remember one number I could not remember one number I could it didn’t matter we’re talking about someone with a photographic memory okay I could not remember is it 720 or 3 719 I could only remember the area codes but not the numbers no one’s coming and I sat there and I just asked myself what do you want out of your life what are you doing and so I actually was booked in there and uh I got an opportunity to see how it was to try to get out try to get numbers um all of the above and I started noticing some of the the women in there that I wanted to help and it was crazy because they thought I was a plant and I I remember going back into the room and being like they’re telling me I don’t even I don’t even fit here do you get what I mean like I actually was there MH but I didn’t fit yeah so I got out and I just remember my ex told me if you go get help you can’t come back here I’ll never forget it and so for a week and a half I sat there thinking about should I go to treatment should I not should I go to treatment should I not and one night 3:00 in the morning I threw everything out of my my car jumped in the car and made it to my grandparents house and I knocked on the door and I said I’m ready and I ended up because my aunt at the time my aunt Bonita she said she had uh talked to you and was like I don’t know what’s going to go on with my niece but she needs some help so I ended up at Parker Valley Hope and Parker Valley Hope is where me and her had this conversation this it was almost an argument I was like listen there are people who need my help out there and there are people who need me to help them and she said why don’t you just stay in your lane and I said listen my Lane is their Lane okay this is 30 days in right so I said people need to know and she said sparklet H stay in your lane right and I I I was fighting that and then 30 days went by and I started feeling really good and then I got sick with pneumonia and I was like huh well I I probably missed my time to go to Peaks recovery and since I’m sick and it’s been 30 days I’m sure I’ll be good you know and SM and I’m talking about it like you know I have plans to start a new career now and and I don’t need you know I don’t need another treatment center this is this is people just thinking I need help you know and uh I’ll never forget it I did my hanging the cup ceremony and they had speech you know you got to give a speech and I had already made plans to go camping with my ex and as soon as I was leaving we were about to go go have some fun okay so I’m sitting there I will cherish this moment and I was doing all these things and people were like she’s going to make it you know they were feeling it and I got so close to the door right I’m close to the door I got my bags and I’m like I’m home free right and I get out and all of a sudden I look over at my ex and I look over and I hear are you Sparkle oh my goodness and I was like what uh yeah peak’s employee with the big van the big van can’t get you oh your auntie took the luxury of making sure we could pick you up for your next treatment
I go I never heard that one okay I look over and then I look at her and I look at him okay and I got on the van so the drive there is just like I’m like how long am I supposed to be here and then I’m thinking I don’t I don’t have any money you know I’m thinking in my head I’m like am I a Bonita you know I’m like what a brat yeah and then when I talked to her she was like well I know myself she said so what do you want me to do and I was like uh thank you so so I get there and I’m fighting it for at least a month I’m fighting it I’m like I I think I’m good I don’t need to I walk in the building and I’m like wow this atmosphere is so relaxing um and then I was like and it’s so quiet and I I was like it’s this kind of worries me because there’s not anybody yelling my name or needing me or anything like this I don’t know maybe this actually might work you know that thought like maybe maybe this was a good decision but you’re well here I was scared you know what I mean um and so I walked in and you know the first the first person I meet my case manager uh Danny DOR and Danny was so nice you know she gave me hug and everything else and then I got right into talking about my career and how I have to leave after this um I’m probably only going to need about you know 30 days 30 more days I’ve already been killing it in the other spot I’m making yeah I’m a winner um here’s the resume um whatever you need okay and she’s like okay well if you could just come in I said well you know I want to make a few calls before and she’s like you can’t have your phone and I was like but there’s people who need me to make things happen so and she’s like I understand I understand I said I had to go do this I had to go do that I had to go do this and then she’s like okay so you were you were kind of like the doorm O and I was like come again and right there as quiet as it’s kept that comment right there changed my life forever ever it intrigued me to realize there’s something more to this and so for a minute I stood in her office and I was like I don’t really know if I want to be a part of this yeah and we ended up being the best of friends all through my five years even after and she checks on me every day checks on me daily just to make sure I’m okay and I’m on the same you know on that same that same road and also with running running my own business not being that yes person I can’t be um and not be be able to being able to maintain that balance is what Peaks really brought for me but they I mean PE you guys challenged us on so many different levels on levels that gave us an opportunity to do something with the tools that were given while we were there so it wasn’t like here’s some tools when you leave it was like let’s watch you put these tools into action before you leave and so before I even hit the ground running or even left or before we even got to the sober living phase my thought process was on a holistic level was on a mindset level that was like I know my program I know I feel safe and I know I’m going to be okay and the reason why is because I know that I can always come back here if I need to um and no one’s going to say anything you know and I also was really excited when I heard that a lot of the staff was excited to see what I was going to do next with the materials and the tools that were given for me to be the best version of me you know and then there was my first therapist I ever had Kelly herrow which was another one that was involved in a lot of my family stuff so she was that third party that was working with us as a family so that we could teach our families recovery but then they could understand my recovery at the same time and the support that was needed for all of us and so that session was pretty intense and I would say that was the first time I had cried in 13 years wow um and when that happened I went into almost pretty much almost stroke mode um and ended up in the hospital because I hadn’t cried in so long um and Kelly was there with me every step of the way all of you guys because I I was also battling a lot of you know condition everything comorbidity right um so once that happened though and uh I just I kept saying I’m going to go back I’m going to go back and then I just started letting it go you know I started letting it go and I started focusing on me and um I started realizing that I couldn’t give away something I didn’t have to begin with so how was I doing it for so long and that wouldn’t it be really cool to not do that anymore right so then I got on the table with Tammy Tam Tammy Romano for somatic experience love and that’s where we started focusing on the words I trust my body and my body started doing things it could had never done before I’m in remission from all five of my conditions that stuck with me forever as well so you had the therapy going on over here we were doing a lot of working out and just mindset work and then I started learning the the gift of processing and being able to process the things I was talking about on a deeper level yeah and that’s when I started to find
me I could say
that the moment I found out or have found out who I am everything has just moved the way it should and it took the doormat conversations and somatic experience and the growth from the inside out to build who I’ve become you know and uh forever grateful because the whole time I kept thinking all this access to me there was so much accessible I could do yoga I could watch TV I could eat good meals like there was so many things that made me and helped me to learn how to take care of me and with no judgment just to learn again to just make your bed again to create the routines again to start to believe in yourself again and I just knew I was with a great program um and then you know I even had I I even had that feeling of realizing even after I left I took this program very seriously um and some people didn’t but I was on scholarship and my family we didn’t come from a lot of money my dad always used to say I’m rich in love not money and so the whole time I was in treatment I was like how the heck am I going to pay for
every time something new would happen I’d be like oh God that’s another $100,000 and Chris you walk in and you go hey Sparks and then you leave and I be like okay no okay okay I’m all right and then after a while you guys were like just do just work on you we don’t care use it to the best of your V ability let’s go and uh I’ll never forget it I tried to go back home oh yeah and I got to the door of where I was at and I remember my ex opened the door and handed me a beer he said there’s more downstairs where that came from I remember being so scared look threw the beer up the thing ran to my car and I went back came back I think you even described the time when you went to the grocery store everything was and I said I’m not ready for this I’m not ready I’m not ready they handing me this the trying to do this for me I said I think it might be better if I stay in the sober living and um I had to ease myself into it and I ended up really never going back to that house again um I it ended up not being for me you know and even after I got out the support from Peaks the support from sober living then the after care right um Rachel from Peaks just talked to her as well she’s like oh my God you’re at five years you know um all of all of you guys played such a huge role in my life and I don’t even think how much you realized it um until like I started coming back and you were like she think she doing all right right now you know we hit one year you hit two years and you’re like okay she’s doing all right you know and then for you to get that call that’s like hey Chris I’m at 5 years today you were like wait what how that happened so it it was a very interesting process for me and I think not not only interesting it was just so humbling and it was um I have so much gratitude from it and I think even now just every day even having um some Peaks people in some of my courses and hearing them speak is reminds me of what I learned do you know what I mean and so when they hear me speak and then they’re like wait a minute it’s Peaks thing you and they’re like you went to Peaks huh I’m like I did you know and it’s a Peaks thing because of the way we talk about it especially with the holistic piece um being able to Center and ground ourselves body scans okay I hated those at first like y’all want me to be talking yeah I was like no Danny I’m not doing it you guys can do this on your own time I’m not doing it she’s probably ready to kill me by the end probably a few of them goodness and then on top of that like meditation I remember like meditating for like two minutes and then I’d open my eyes and I’d be like oh we’re still meditating like I I would forget it’s so hard you know so we did a lot of that a lot of walks a lot of working out and just a lot of being in secluded areas to hear ourselves see the difference is the gift of being and when you have nothing but silence but to sit with yourself and figure out what you’re actually doing it all makes sense it starts to come together but often times people don’t get time to do that and then when they do you’re it’s it takes you back you know that you you want to do something because you don’t want to sit with it and so the greatest part about being at Peaks is I was able to sit with it and feel comfortable because my surroundings were safe and comfortable so then and everybody else around me even the people that I was in treatment with they were processing and sitting with it too so it’s like we all were learning you know how to be and um that right there was probably it’s probably been one of the greatest gifts I’ve ever had is being able to sit in silence and do nothing you know and it’s really it’s Unique and that would have done nothing I said a body scan and sit in silence that’s that’ll be the the the Pinnacle of the experience but I think it’s you really speak to something that I think is very near and dear to my heart and that’s important I think for the recovery process and you talk about safety but then to get to safety we have to talk about things like settling and to get to things like settling we have to talk about environment right and I’ve always said about Peaks you know the one thing you’re going to experience here that you won’t experience anywhere else you can only feel you can’t see yeah you can only feel you’re talking about this place where we go into and even though Peaks has evolved it doesn’t matter what you know yeah but how much you care and the foot you’re putting forward and walking with these people and so I’m wondering today as you work with literally working with peak’s clients now what a lot of things have changed over the last 5 years but what is a commonality with the Peaks clients that you work with that share your experience because I was sitting with another guy the other day in our alumni program KJ mhm and he’s like it doesn’t matter if someone was in Peaks 10 years ago 4 years ago 6 years ago Sparkle 5 years ago me 5 months ago we sit down and we go oh it’s a Peaks thing yeah because here’s the thing we lean in with our feelings see there’s a lot of of things that I talk about and I say because of what we’ve learned whoever feels the most wins okay and then I heard somebody else in a podcast say to me Sparkle I’m not hearing what you’re saying I’m feeling what you’re saying said because order for us to actually consume what we have you got to fill it to know and often times that’s where we block right well that’s not that we’re opened up with this safety piece but we’re also open because it the the therapist and the people we work with really challenge us to go deep and actually identify with the feelings the whole process how are you feeling today what are we doing people think that stuff is funny but I ask myself how I’m feeling every day every second of the hour and check in with it because if I can identify with the power of my words through my feelings others feel me too and the difference is is I learned that because I realized how much I was running from my feelings my whole life and in all reality when I started leaning in with how I felt first people respected it better and you hear this everywhere you go from people who come from Peaks people who have worked for Peaks people who have went to Peaks we speak breathe and feel we feel our feelings and that’s what makes it different because that means we have a willingness to get deeper with ourselves every day you know and when you consistently do this and you’re consistently doing it in your after care and all of that stuff it’s a becoming of you it’s no longer a goal it’s an intent it’s an intention that becomes who you are changes the mindset and now you’re just filling you know and you’re doing what we used to do when we were younger that we shut down a long time ago but now which was authentic yeah it was our authenticity and then all of a sudden someone was like you cry I’m going to give you something to cry about right you know we’re done you’re done for a long time well all of a sudden here we are in the era of 2024 we’re feeling is what what it should be and where our younger people right now are doing all of that and it’s okay it’s okay and we know emotions are temporary not permanent so fill away because the next one’s coming I love that see it’s it’s this authenticity thing that actually it’s not required for recovery but I think it’s required to thrive in recovery oh absolutely and Peaks I think kind of pulls that it’s pulled it out of me over the years I mean you talk about sematic work I started that three and a half years ago oh my goodness I forgot that you were doing that with t yes I started sematic work with Tammy and then obviously you know for three and a half years I’ve shift into Quantum healing with my father Philip Lindsay so um you talk about the you talk about the gift of energy it’s a crazy thing you know um and just becoming one with yourself from within because there’s layers to this fillings thing right there’s layers of surrender there’s layers of empathy there’s layers of gratitude as you grow in your recovery right it’s it’s like you’re always going to go through the cycle of butterfly most of us think that when we’re in the Cocoon it’s the most uncomfortable time well it’s Ascension so when you’re ascending you’re uncomfortable right but what you’re doing is preparing yourself for the knowledge you need to transform yeah and then bam Here Comes transformation yeah and then here you go all over again and it’s a process that we have to learn and condition our minds to think and before you know it it’s just a becoming of us feelings empathy all of it that becoming of us is is so is so near and dear to what I do it in the recovery and I used to think it was just a recovery thing but I almost think like the whole world can afford to be in recovery and so I think it’s this life thing yes is that if we fortify our experience with some nice edges and some good goals they speak to something that has to continue yes and keep moving it’s not like you know today I’m feeling so connected with God myself and my fellow human that I can’t get any more connected yeah I’m bully connected that’s what I love about the way that you speak to this recovery process because it’s like I’ll go back to that eight how good can life get M I mean I mean and here’s the thing how good can life get and then how how not so great can it be too because when you’re when you’re dealing with the fact that you can embrace the good and the not so great and realize it is what it is it’s a beautiful thing because most people think that when you mess up it’s a bad thing have you ever thought that when you mess up it’s a great thing because now lessons are transpiring which means that you are growing and therefore you got to mess up in order to grow so why would we stop right and and I always tell a lot of you know I tell tell my coaches as as they’re going through their programs it’s not a about a using thing or a stop using thing it’s a living thing y how do you become a well-oiled machine mind body and spirit taking care of yourself first and illuminating your light to others so they see it it starts with you because you are doing it for you if you’re doing it for everybody else but you you’ve lost sight of the mission and and we have to remember that even as helpers now even as people who want to go out there and guide and give people the light let them find their light but show them your light by doing what you need to do in that action continue to feel continue to be your authentic self and step into your power you know and a lot of this comes from working with other people but it also comes from seeking to understand and remaining curious about who you are that’s that is so unique and that’s why I love I love how you branched out and open Sparkle LLC is because like if there could be an orientation at Peaks that we could like really but it would be that it would be just take great care of yourself and you’ll be exceptional yeah just going to be exceptional you’re going to thrive and there’s greatness written all over you but you have to invest yes every day every day and the thing is is that the investment becomes so fun because you fall in love with yourself all over again and this is what I say I challenge you if you haven’t fell in love with yourself or do so take yourself out on dates do things make yourself laugh I mean I got kicked out of a few Potter I got kicked out of a few pottery classes because I’m not an artist chuckling oh my God I saw my dad at the the pottery piece he said well how do you feel I said well I guess it was just the date that counted but they said I don’t really have to come back if I don’t want to good we love having you we loved it but it’s okay those parts I still to this day laugh at myself and love myself wholeheartedly for being able to spend time with me and embracing who I am so that I can teach people how to love me cuz now I’m starting to know what I want and how I want that done and what I want done in my life it means that anybody else who comes my way they need to know I know how to love me and in order for you to be in my realm and me to be in yours we have to teach each other how to love one another and we got to know from within first you know I really love your your recovery process it’s very it feels like a breath of fresh air you know it says we can it doesn’t say we can’t um it there’s no life sentence to anything except for quality of life improvements opportunity seeing ourselves clearly it’s it’s really cool because you’re able to move out within five years and do something that would have took 10 years ago 20 years to do because you’re anchoring into things that are so holistic sustainable and rooted in value from a foundational recovery perspective people feel that yes and they also feel and feel really good with self-reflection see everything that I’ve ever done and um one thing Peaks brought to me was the honesty and integrity with myself and I had to start getting real with me in order to figure out what needed to happen next and often times we don’t want to do that we want to distract ourselves you know but after a while when you start to learn the becoming of self-reflection you can’t help but speak that way so people respect that because you’re not talking about them you’re talking about you and when they realize that you have the audacity to talk about the things you need to do better it changes the way people look at things and it also changes the way you look at things it keeps you more mindful it keeps you empathetic um it it keeps you humble and it also it it consistently challenges you to surrender and that part right there is what people forget your surrender never stops once you say I need help you always need help and you should never be afraid to do that or ask for that especially because the first time was the hardest but once you continue saying I need help I need support those people just start to show and it’s because they need help and support too the people who are growing in this game right now and in this world with recovery or not just in this world are people who actually say hey I need help I don’t got this right and and and here it is I even do kind of got it but you know what a a second eye would be nice mhm just tell me what you see what’s wrong with that there’s nothing wrong with us reaching out to one another and saying hey two heads are better than one what do you see yeah we’re in this together and we are we’re all sober Warriors when you’re getting sober from whatever it is you’re getting sober from but when you’re able to consistently surrender and ask people for help and keep moving it gets stronger and stronger and those it’s like a burning ball that’s just gaining momentum and before you know it you’re just locked in and when you start to lock into how you feel your mindset and other people start to feel it it’s infectious and that is I would say that is what I have seen in my career now with having my own business right Sparkle LLC the light at the end of the tunnel I have seen I have seen amazing coaches come from a program that I I didn’t even know what I was doing at first I didn’t know what my vision was I just knew I needed to create it and uh 850 coaches later um I just watched them grow I watched them 850 later spark I watched them grow and I watched them get it and I watch them say I want to be better for me and I tell them it starts with you it ends with you and you can’t give away something you don’t have so got to be as strong as you can and you got to be as willing to make mistakes as you can and be willing to say I need help and then on top of that you got to be willing to say if I’m not okay then I don’t need to work with people right now I need to stick with me and all of this came from just for me a vision and I I feel like I took got the C car curriculum and and I really just started trying to make it my own and then started bringing in other things to make it mix and make it work and next thing you know I you know I’ve come up with a university and an academy for coaches where they can be great coaches they can grow they have a place to call home and uh they can continue to grow into the versions they want to be not all of them are going to be coaches for the rest of their life what do their advancement plans look like where do they need to go and if they have a place to call home they’ll continue to grow because they have a place just like I do here at Peaks that knows who I am and who values me for who I am and when you know you have a place like that there’s nothing that stops you that’s a I mean when you said 850 I I think to myself like that just one human one person who said you know what I’ll do this thing it’s uphill both ways yeah it’s uphill both ways and I remember you know people that have been there no but I I remember just being able to sit in these groups with you and I and I remember the time when you just let go and you get to experience with these people that are like your family that have been around for 360 hours of group with you and it’s these special moments that we get to share as people in recovery yeah where we’re all just we’re all just okay together and it’s one of the most beautiful things because they never thought it was possible well and it’s crazy too because when you leave and you see someone you were in recovery with some of the people that I was in recovery with I still talk to today they are still watching the program they’re trying to be a part of the program they’re like sparkle how you doing and they’re looking great you know what I mean and even some of those people that may have left and things didn’t go as well they reached out to me that made me feel good because they didn’t feel like I can’t tell nobody they said nah that’s that’s a peak sister right there I could call her and she’s going to she got my back regardless CU I don’t care it’s it’s a a non-judgmental approach for anybody who’s going through anything and I think a big portion of where we have went wrong but we’re starting to get better is the judgmental piece MH and you know being a recovery coach for four and a half years right and a facilitator and a motivational keynote speaker an author right um and then trying to do something different for those especially now at um that are coming up and and people are are more into their feelings and everything else and I’ve become very very much more spiritual um he just been wonderful watching people just soak up all of the goodness and I mean I can tell you now I I starting this business I I really didn’t I didn’t have much of anything you know I I started at Peaks at uh not Peaks recovery but Serenity recovery connection which was Springs recovery connection and I had some great mentors there Kathy plush Don Gillum my best friend chid limel um and we we went for it we went for it and was one of the best places I could have ever been cuz you mentioned it and you said hey Sparks I think you should check this out and I remember coming in gungho and there was I mean we created so many different things there that never existed the Justice settings the emergency rooms like we by the end I was like this is amazing and then I remember I remember it co co I had an interview that ended up with 28,000 views and and uh Kathy plush said to me Sparkle you need to speak she said you need to speak and I said you think she said I think and uh I remember telling her hey I I think that I’m going to go on ahead and take off I’m going to leave and I just see something more for me and she said hey if it’s easy take off she said I built this place for this to be a springboard for you to catapult into what’s next sure enough I got out there Chris and I was like I don’t know can I come back this is kind of hard you know and got my first books out there being a better me for me and uh it’s on Amazon and then I being a better me for me Amazon being a better me for me uhhuh the book in the workbook I turned it into a master class and then I started getting asked to speak more and and uh I said okay I think I got something but I had been facilitating and I noticed that like a lot of the coaches that were with me some of them weren’t making it yeah and I was like what you know I’m an HR executive for for big box companies I’m like okay we going to have to make some changes cuz if people are if the helper is not being helped we got a problem this isn’t this isn’t making sense and so I said you know what I’m I’m going to make the first coaches Hub a place where coaches can be successful coaches can get all the all the lectures the spe speakers coming in to their courses everything you can think of to shine and this is where they rejuvenate themselves this is where they call it so internationally um you know they they jump into these classes they get a chance to be State Certified and stuff but also have other master classes and stuff and speakers coming in that they can see once every two weeks and just really be a part of of my Coach’s Corner um and it’s it’s going it’s starting to hit International and everything else so it’s been good to see that there’s a bunch of coaches who can come together communicate to each other and uh just just cry and be open and talk about their recovery and know they have a place that they can talk about it openly without judgment so yeah you you I love what you did and I love what cavy did and I love springs recovery Serenity recovery connection it’s amazing process but you reminded me of one of our core values which is to disrupt the industry through quality of care oh yeah we don’t bring anybody on this show that sits in the status quo you know we bring leaders and entrepreneurs and Visionaries and miracles and we bring them in to tell the world that we can do better one day at a time together together and this is where people don’t think about the fact that Tammy rato I’ll never forget it I said I always thought of that term the strong black woman it always made me feel a lot of pressure and they always showed in on media like that and um we got to go going and I said she said what would you call it if you could call it something I said well I’m tired of people putting that cliche up there I said I’m a woman of many strengths you hold yours and I’ll hold mine and we’ll walk across the Finish Line together I said everybody deserves an opportunity to be a part of their recovery process or their life and if we allow people to do that and we walk with them we don’t interfere we just guide and they guide us and we have what we call people walking together to be kind and empathetic and understanding and help each other grow encourage each other and Enlighten each other step into your power together and go take what’s yours and when I say take it you take what’s yours because it’s written not because you got to take it from somebody else CU that’s somebody else’s stuff but what’s yours is for you and if it’s not for you it’s not going to be for you anyway you know so these things are I mean even the words that I’ve I’ve learned to that I’ve talked I don’t know I often ask myself where they came from because when I was younger I was like I’m going to be a speaker I don’t know what I’m going to talk about and now I can’t stop and and I feel like you know as my higher power channels through me and I speak from my heart I will speak as much as I need to to help people know they’re not alone that’s right and that people do care and people care about people care and also that it’s okay to care for yourself as well it’s not about caring for everybody else but you and you end up last no we can all cross this Finish Line together so it’s been very interesting I find myself uh having a lot of uh transformation moments in the classes uh with coaches and you can feel uh the coaches Rising you feel their vibration taking off and it just feels like an army of people being kind and loving and disrupting things because of that not because they need to be mean or upset it’s because from the inside out they care and you get enough of those people around you change the world you change the world you know yeah I’m so grateful that I get to sit and Recovery with you CU it’s like this authentic perspective like you know we go into this world from 20 to now and things are all sort places intense but we know being in recovery like there’s this Mission and this vision and this opportunity yes we get to thrive together and I love what you said because it’s been one of the greatest Gifts of my career you know when I started off 16 years ago it was about what I knew and what you didn’t have and you needed to follow me and you just said something that’s so profound it’s like I can remember a moment when I had a heavy phone in my hand and I didn’t think anybody cared mhm and what you said is so profound because all I wanted to know was that there was people willing to walk with me yep they didn’t even yeah they didn’t have to say here we’re doing it this way cuz if they would have dragged me I would have been like leave me alone anyway it was the fact that they said how can I help you with your recovery today how can I help you find a job today how can I just ask what you can do to help you’d be surprised how many people will look at you and be like wait you you want to help me me and I’ll tell you as soon as you say yeah we in this together it’s your journey I can’t do it for you but I will walk with you and I don’t care what happens I’m here they immediately start to feel like I can do this and you watch people transform into something they never thought they could be and they look back at you and realize that it was all them it’s all there and that right there is like I’m doing it yeah right and then that for you as a coach Co or as a helper or even for yourself looking probably at me is this they’re doing it and they’re okay and they’re going to continue down that Journey that they need to because they have a routine they remember how they were done you know it’s like um when you if you start and you’re a coach and you start with a A young team and you guys start with the fundamentals the basics and you continue working and flowing and everybody’s starting to go all of a sudden their layups start getting better all of a sudden their jumpers start getting better and then by the time they grow up together it’s a team and that’s exactly how we did this in our Peaks recovery and and we did it as a team and we still worked on our individual things but everybody was still learning about themselves which means that most of the people who leave Peaks they have that mentality of team that’s why they’re okay with coming back if they have to yeah that we thing yep it’s a we thing not a you thing you know what I mean we had to learn how to get those interviews like well I had 100 points you know it’s a we thing and after a while that we thing it’s it’s a bond that you will never ever lose with someone who knew you on such a vulnerable level and most teams that win the championship they know each other vulnerably enough to to block for each other or cover for each other to the point where they’re just a well oiled machine and that’s that’s really what recovery is about and that’s that’s what it’s about when you bring in your engagement of the community you know yep you’re hitting the player at the spot before they even move yeah it’s a beautiful thing like we know we’re yep yep you know the dishes exactly like you know when we started Peaks recovery 10 years ago and it was one of those things where it’s like hey if we can come into the Colorado Springs Community and help a couple people yeah that would be amazing and I’m I’m just I think the right word for it is humbled and then and then maybe secondly would be honored MH to sit with you today absolutely um these experiences are just 24 hours at a time the Capstone of my recovery existence and the fact that we get to walk together and connect with family community and culture and this enriching process is not only a miracle but very very special right the last question I wanted to ask you is as we swing into this 10 years it’s like what does it mean to you to be a part of because you’re you’re a significant part of this 10y year anniversary this celebration this momentum forward um with helping people that don’t have the opportunity to help themselves and you you have a big big part of that and a big presence in our community and what does that mean for you personally and professionally you’re going to make me cry again um I would
say I am so proud of what I have accomplished in my
life I was in a real real real dark spot um and I would say that everybody that I’ve ever had in my corner nobody ever gave up and I think that uh the supports I had the love I’ve had the conversations I’ve had the fun times I’ve had like it’s crazy because I used to think about the things that went wrong or what I needed to fix and when I hit five years the only thing I could think about was everything that’s going right and I think uh sometimes we get going and and we’re we’re moving and grooving and we’re helping and we’re doing these things but then after a while you stop you know every Milestone Kelly taught me that you celebrate and I remember looking outside the window and I another voice came to me and it said congratulations on your five years you don’t want to miss this it’s on me to stay in the present moment stay in that present moment focus on what we have today and allow the days to come to us as we may and even since 5 years I’m 5 years three months sober I have not everything just is what it is and I feel like even some of the things that used to drive me nuts even about this business and just where to get started I’m like God if it’s your will let it be done and he is doing it and I think when you know that things are are happening and they’re written you don’t fight it you just go with it and I feel like there’s so much more left to happen out here and I feel like growing in my recovery CU 5 years is still pretty early um I would say that growing into myself and into my recovery but into this new phase of living it is so exciting and the expansion and the way the vividness I mean I’m just so grateful to be here and see what’s probably been here the whole time but I wasn’t ready to receive it and now that I’m here I’m like let’s freaking go there’s no like it’s it’s you’ve I’ve worked through through the past and now I’m consistently working this thing and I’m on I’m ready to go and I just think for me it’s I’m grateful for it and I know this what my past was doesn’t Define me but who I am right now is Sparkle Lindsay I’m a woman in long-term recovery that’s the only thing I care about the rest of the stuff is going to happen and then it’s not but one thing that’s always going to change is me as long as I believe in who I am and also continue to keep beautiful wonderful supports around me and I’ve noticed that every step of this company every step of what I’ve been or who I am there’s always been somebody my legs to the table obviously that’s my book coming out there’s been somebody from my legs to the table there to hold me up and realign me and I’m okay with that and I think that when you become that person who’s okay with not criticism but growing and and learning and you know that there’s people around you who hold you in their hands and in their arms there’s power and numbers because of that so I would tell you now I feel very very powerful from within and I feel like stepping into my power is just starting to happen and I also feel like this place for me Peaks recovery it always has a place in my heart because I was a pretty tough person to crack but right off out the gates it was like we don’t care if you come here or not if you want to come here for yourself we got you but if not then we don’t and I found that so astonishing that you guys just owed people to recover when they wanted to and so that’s the part for me and it didn’t matter how long it may have taken it was more like what do we need to do to help Sparkle move forward and it was always on an individual basis um and it always has been and and also the fact that you would come in and have those those stories or those conversations with us in the mornings when we have to have our groups and you’d I’d hear a story from it and each time time I became more empowered um by hearing that and realizing like this journey is just getting started and so even now um when I get to be here with this 10e anniversary it’s so surreal because I see people coming up I see you guys still doing very well I see so much movement and churn and it just feels good to know you guys are still standing and I think um first and foremost I am honored to even be on this show as well because um it it s it surprises you you know that time and I didn’t realize that you guys were at 10 years either so um when my aunt said uh Sparks this this is pretty big I was like of course it’s huge I was like this is huge you know you think about Jason’s and Laurens and just all of these people and they’re still around and still seeing them and then watching that sparkle in their eyes where they see me and they’re like she’s still doing okay you know what I mean and all of it is just like bringing back family you know so I say for me this is the most surreal and it and it’s also just it’s just one of the greatest blessings to know that you’re sitting here in a place where you were at your worst but you’re also in a place where you are right where you need to be and it’s still right here with Peaks recovery right still here now worst best where you need to be it’s it’s uh it’s it’s it’s full circle and it’s just so amazing to be able to walk with you on this journey and I talk to people a lot in early recovery and we’ll leave we’ll leave people with this it’s like we have this opportunity and we know very near and dear to our hearts that it is an opportunity right in front of us every day is this we’re going to change the world one day at a time yep when I line up right like so I do Jiu-Jitsu I’m not very good but I’ve been doing it 16 months um but when I line up across somebody regardless of what training they put in I you haven’t sat with the people and walked with the humans in the way that I have over the last 16 years and that’s a problem right a good problem right you know and so I’m grateful to know you as a sister a friend a colleague a professional and somebody that’s rocking and changing this world one day at a time my friend Sparkle lindsy LLC what is your website uh Sparkle lindsay.com Sparkle lindsay.com check her out check out all her stuff she’s speaking all over the place she’s putting out a lot ofi information that’s taking off like a wildfire Sparkle thank you so much I appreciate you we love you I’d say this I’m I’m pretty honored I think we uh we still got a whole lot of work to do out there so we’ll just keep we’ll keep taking it one day at a time one step at a time in the present moment and we won’t look back that’s right thank you so much until next time peace [Music]
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Episode 127Peaks Alumni Guest – A Resilient Recovery StoryWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/uHLAcDtqhwMListen NowDescriptionOur 10th Anniversary is coming up soon! 🎉 Alumni guest Austin came back to celebrate with us, and we also honored how far he has come in his recovery. 👏🏼 In this episode, Chris Burns speaks to Austin about his experience walking through Peaks as a client and the life path that illuminated him from it. From discussing when to reach out for help to building and developing lifelong friendships and communities through recovery and a message never to give up, this episode offers hope to anyone who feels they are in the dark, at rock bottom, or ready to change their life. Stay tuned for our 10th-anniversary video coming out September 1st!

Talking Points1. Meet Austin (0:30) 2. Austin’s experience early in recovery (1:45) 3. Knowing when to look for help (6:00) 4. Building accountability (11:00) 5. Austins “D-Team” community (13:05) 6. Continuing to support people in recovery (20:05) 7. Never giving up (23:50) 8. Closing thoughts (28:23) Quotes

“The bottom can be whenever we decide to stop digging. We can elevate that bottom today. ” – Chris Burns, Founder & CEO

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -127- Transcripts[Music] hey everybody and welcome to another exciting episode of Finding Peaks Yours Truly Chris Burns founder and CEO Peaks recovery centers grateful today to be joined by an amazing friend in long-term recovery in a Peaks alumni Austin pelster so great to have you sir hey it’s a pleasure to be here an amazing breed’s amazing with it there so definitely a balance scale sitting here with yeah yeah man it’s just been a pleasure you know we’re we’re in the process of us getting close to celebrating 10 years so having you back out four years of recovery you know you were here in 2020 it’s just been exceptional having you around connecting with chef and so many of the other folks that you spent quality time with in your stay with us yeah it’s been been great getting some catch up with everybody and and the amazing things seeing around the facility there like you guys have been busy I I’ve been I spent the last four years keeping myself clean and I come back and look at all this and go God this could have been a cakewalk wow yeah I mean the the new the new trail head everything going on there plus having the old houses like it’s out of this world the abilities that the you you were set so free with things that you can do and knowing the new programs that have come in just the uh with mental health help with uh with raiki with the magnet stuff you were talking about wow there’s so many cool things there yeah I love that when we were torn Austin around today you know the new facilities built and he was here in 2020 when we were just preconstruction zoning everything and so for him to really be able to see it real time and walk through there was a was a real gift for him and a gift for everybody to see him and get to celebrate and I think that’s where we’ll start in the show Austin just picked up four years you know when when you came into Peaks or maybe even prior to Peaks did you ever think you know that was going to be a part of your existence or did you think that was possible you know there was a a good long spell and a good long drinking career where I thought I’m like everyone I just drink a lot you know it it is what it is I go to the bar you know these guys are throwing them back I’m throwing them back all the same balanced action watch of functioning alcoholics there people were making their way to work the next morning or going home to the wife and kids didn’t get to see a whole lot of the behind the scenes and really didn’t want to do a whole lot of the math I ignored the homework because behind the scenes I was seeing couples who were getting divorced I was seing people who were transitioning jobs like they just got promotions but I think they might have softened the blow on what they were really saying the repercussions of that so it camouflaged itself to me and I never really thought that I had such a problem now I did stare across the bar and be that guy he’s drinking a lot you that at least I’m not that dude yeah been there and I know from the other side of the bar they were looking across and going at least I’m not that dude and here I am and I mean not to prove my guidance counsel or WR or anything but yeah eventually I knew something was going to have to make changes and through a lot of years and watching a lot of friends do a lot of Peaks and valleys in their own lives and watching people literally drink themselves to death and we did did their their wakes and their funerals and we mourned and had our sorrows and our celebrations for them and we did them all at the bar like those those signs should have been you know right in front of you like the coyote know mother trying to say what are you doing here but that didn’t ring a bell either you know it’s you know somebody dies oh crap set him up somebody gets out of the hospital hey pal want to drink and we continued in that process but never thought internally and never thought on my own that you know maybe there was some
her all the apologies in the world she’s Beyond step work and the apologies that I owe her like I should buy her a house and a new life and then stay the hell out of it cuz she’s ear ined that you know she got in my face when we were at the bar right before I had made my way to Peaks you know really shortly before and called me out on my heavy drink but all also started calling me out that my eyes were changing colors and she’d had some drinks in her so she was a little more vocal a little more animated than a normal intervention style crowd would have been sure but she was trauma informed yeah but she stay she got right up in my grill about it and I’m sitting there taking shots you know I’m fine don’t I’m tired and worn the hell out you know every excuse possible well as that escalated that day she ended up getting 86 from the bar for making a scene while they kept serving me the guy who’s jaising his eyes yellow who looks like hammered [ ] that poor girl I owe her so many apologies but that’s also part of the the camouflage you know why are they still serving me if I’m a problem right what and I never really thought about it until I woke up that magic morning June 18th 2020 and went and looked in the mirror and saw The Simpsons but they weren’t on TV it was me I was that color that was some scary [ ] thought maybe I could have looked back at all those times before where co-workers called me out girlfriends called me out parents called me out no no they were just being judgy yeah I love that too and I that’s what I wanted to you know we’re chatting a little bit before the show but I think that’s a great overarching view of things is like the bottom can be whenever we decide to stop digging oh yeah we can Elevate that bottom today I think sometimes people see stories like yours or mine or some of your friends and are like I don’t have that maybe you can highlight for people when you started to feel like like you needed something to show up in this world to have or add value absolutely so the social Norm is what really really drove it and I was working in an industry that was all food and beverage and I was the buyer for wine I was the buyer for booze I was the presenter I was the wine tasting guy at 10: a.m. so for me it was kind of yeah you know no big deals but I was scheduling these and I even had employees pull pull do you really want to schedule a wine tasting at 10: a.m. and to me it’s like yeah it’s [ ] normal right what what’s so big about throwing back some breakfast Shard day and I never really caught the signs on those and you know there there was a lot a lot of big warning signs but I just ignored all the signs of the road and kept speeding now the rock bottom piece you know Rock Bottom doesn’t have to be a solid slab of granite you know Rock Bottom could be where you’re just starting to hit those pebbles at the bottom of the drain and go why the hell am I down here or maybe your toes just barely touched it and you’re treading water but you know that that Rock Bottom is below you yeah and the ability to learn and be educated enough just in normal societal Norms or have the balls to listen yeah because that’s really what it is it’s easier to push it aside y That Rock Bottom could be on the shallow end of the pool yeah yeah exactly and and we want to highlight that for people today it’s like let’s let’s Elevate that let’s not wait for some of these huge huge life-changing events to find our clearly what it is today our mental health and our mental equinity you know because often times it’s the booze come up and they serve a purpose because I’m struggling with you know my anxiety or my depression or my allergies or whatever it is and it fills this like oh man I can kind of talk to this person now I can do these things and so looking at it from the mental health side of things is like we can we can catch this thing far before you have to go that deep exactly you know when you look at like a a a bottle of Tylenol or a bottle of ibuprofen you know there’s a dosing WR on there and it says not to exceed not to do this not to do that and it really talks about what you should and shouldn’t do with it it’s it’s a regulated thing but you look at a bottle of booze it doesn’t say right it says 32 ounces of now my back won’t hurt right and so you’re self-medicating on that but you don’t have prescription on it and we see this with more than booze we see it with weed you know the California sober that is so popular out here in Colorado let’s go colado yeah wo yeah puff puff oh oops oops but there’s no dosing on it there’s no you know this is what it takes to make the the pain go away and it might take a minute to kick in it’s a delayed reaction you know or you know delayed what do they call them the delayed extended release yeah delayed release uh tablets of a leave or whatever okay yeah that’s not booze Bo boots it’s a fast acting do it now now my back doesn’t hurt but it also wears off just as fast so keeping the level up you’re self-medicating here and you’re not doing it with anything more than what really is a drug frankly it works pretty well like a [ ] charm man yes that’s the problem I’ll tell you what after after I got my uh my regular fix my uh my four down to start the start the evening out my back didn’t hurt my head felt clean um I was ready to be social my anxiety’s disappeared life was a cakewalk hell yeah let’s do a couple more because I got more friends showing up that girl looks pretty nice over there I want that liquid courage you throw them down because this is the medicine that’s working for me when really that medicine is what’s killing me yeah right and it’s hard to get enough of something that almost works yeah Gabor mate said it best what do you think what what was like when you look back at your experience I know we chatted a little bit yesterday but what was kind of the toughest part because we’ve been talking a lot lately I had the Reconstruction guys on a few months ago we’ve been talking a little bit about a part of recovery that’s been missed a little and it and it does take a little bit of grit does take a little bit of fight and it takes some Champions around you to enfor form that but can you think back you know as we were on campus earlier can you think back to some inflection points it’s like you talk about it a lot with people that you help you say now you’ve done the first hardest thing now you’re G to do the toughest thing which is the work the the work the work is the hardest thing and it’s work it’s a four-letter word you know it [ ] was already taken so we got to call it work yeah and it doesn’t have to be hard work though I mean there are some moments where you really have to apply yourself you don’t have have to think of it as hard because you’re stepping from one piece of life to the next and sure there’s transitional things in there that hurt and there’s times where you don’t want to go and do this work because the old job was easier but that work and it it’s tough and it’s accountability is probably the number one thing to keep you driven in your job you go to a regular job you get a review okay and sometimes you have to generate your own review and then give it to your boss and then you compare notes and and you think you’re horrible at something and they’re going actually you’re really good at that but you’re pissed poor at this one you thought you were good at right so the accountabilities that are in there and building that core around you you can’t do it on your own and a lot of people try to do it on their own all the way from trying to detox on their own from my friend Nick who tried that he’s not with us anymore yeah um he didn’t try to medically detox and do it the right way and bring himself down he had a seizure on his couch and died very very young man tragic story lifelong alcoholic yeah and he had he had the ways to get out he never asked for help could we have pinpointed it for him yeah and that’s an accountability I like to bring into life now for sure so not just within myself but within everyone around I see that when I when I was at Peaks today looking the accountability is there from not only a therapist or not only from an owner or from chef but it’s from everywhere like you sign engagement around every corner with everyone there wasn’t a figure walking through being a a CEO just you know going to my office it was full Engagement full asking how you doing across the board I heard probably waiting listening for response yeah yeah I heard how are you doing probably a dozen times before we got out of the lunchroom from different people across the board full check-in and that’s that accountability needs to make its way outside the doors too and you you do that by finding AA groups you do that by finding na groups or finding a Dharma group or just a group of random Joe’s are going to sit and have coffee on Sunday morning it might be a golf club I don’t know you will yeah CU that’s your job that’s part of that work is you go out and you find that group to hold you accountable I have the D team yeah that’s what I was going to ask you next man it’s not on the list but let’s talk a little bit about the D team and what that means to you because the single greatest recovery tool I had certainly in my first year was the people around me was the community that informed my every existence and well I was everything with them and really I felt absent without and so you developed just a incredible friend group that is in the community doing great you guys meet up all the time you keep each other maybe talk to them a little bit about that relationship you found at Peak yeah and it’s amazing so six of us all checked in at the same time um within about I think it was like eight hours of Total time of checkin and the six of us all check in and we’re all six from different walks of life well walks or staggers or whatever I mean some of them came in a little hot too but if I mean if you’d have put us all six at a bar maybe three of us would have turned out out being friends from any which side You’ have never put it all together into one but we made a good Bond right there being the the brand new six all people around like hey what are you in for drinking dumbass what do you think I’m here for you all the awkward conversation then it generated more and more and more growth some of some of them stuck around for the fast 30 and got out and went on and started getting life lived and doing well uh there’s schmoes like me who stuck around for 97 days best summer camp ever yeah I I know I’m not the longest but damn it it was I think great I mean you look back like it up there there’s not a lot of times people in this world will check into a a community or treatment program and you’re seen valued and heard around every corner H yeah and we’ll we’ll touch on that a little bit too just some of the internal uh things that I jumped in with while I was there but this dteam group and we called ourselves the D team because of detox where we met that’s I wonder that yeah and we’re still in contact every day there’s a text there’s something that comes through every day out of this group and they’re always right there and a lot of times it’s dirty stories or silly [ ] but then if somebody needs something or they’re celebrating something it’s right there and it’s support it’s the hey I [ ] up or hey I just hit four years happy birthday you know it was Gary’s birthday yesterday you know that was all over it and this Core Group sticks together we try to get out and meet each other whenever we can because we’re not all localized together we got a couple of them down here in the springs we got Washington State North Carolina Kentucky you know uh other end of the state too over in Grand junk that’s right we got people everywhere so it’s not like hey come on over and watch the game yeah but when we can we do and it’s great because it’s almost like they were they never weren’t by your side now they’re just physically sitting here yeah you know one of them picked me up at the airport we managed to have a bite to eat and that’s the only time I’m going to see him while I’m down here because he’s busy he’s got things going on but also knew like hey man I’m in town like dude where you at at the airport just dropped off a rental I’m on my way that’s so cool and that’s the tightness that we have that’s the beauty that we have and that’s it that’s something I never certainly when I was coming into treatment I didn’t think as a young person like oh I’m going to be here to inform it and entrench lifelong relationships but when you spend quality time with individuals intimate authentic time with individuals even if it is just 30 days you know I went into the Meadows for five days and they were like you’re going to get three to five years of talk therapy in the next five days so I’d imagine in these bonds there there’s so lock Tight cuz before you know our relationships are fleeing they’re coming and going and it sounds like you and your buddies and I know them all man these are entrenched lifelong relationships absolutely yeah I mean and we’re tight and I know one of them keeps us a little quiet to the rest of their friends you know it’s I know these guys it’s about as far as it goes others of like dude if I get married you’re in so yeah it is it is a tight core group and I I I think with what I see new over there on the facility too it’s going to help generate a lot of that because you’re seeing that kind of when you showed me the the U shape of progression going through the new building and how this group is going to come in and start experiencing the beginning of their recovery here together and then yep and then they’re going to move over here together for the most part but probably in a good success rate and transition and transition until they’re out the door being that functioning amazing member of society they knew they could be yeah and those bonds are going to stick and go because now it’s like graduating you know know kindergarten and then first grade second grade Etc completely present you know for the experience or more present than I had been in my whole life yeah and it keeps them balanced and helping each other too so you’re they’re already putting accountability together and that’s kind of that same core we had with the D team is we were all starting out at the same time on our adventure and so that accountability was each other like how you doing on this to do this meeting yet play with this yet yeah I love that man you guys came out was it was it 2022 2020 oh 2022 came out for the reunion yeah uh did a reunion out here in 2022 in October and we’re at a ridiculous mansion and we didn’t trash it because we were sober man if we if we’ have been drinking that place that grand piano would have been sitting upstairs that’s so funny it would too oh such a nice great room there was beautiful in there yeah it was we got everybody together had some other friends in um some former Peaks Associates too um they stopped by hung out and swapped some stories it was great you were you were over there that was so much fun yeah Bobby was over there we got I love being a part of that man long term and you guys actually want to come back and you want to celebrate with the people that it all started with it’s it’s very connecting and satiating and quite frankly it’s it’s why we do what we do absolutely and and I think you know don’t don’t get don’t get me wrong here it costs money to go to treatment we all know that and insurance thank God it exists I know you guys took care of me for my last month that was there um I believe that was full scholarship on there I don’t think you had anything that was buildable that’s a different story but there’s also the giving back and kind kind of like step 12 where you’re getting back out there and you’re being of service I like to push mine in the direction of the place that helped me get there to start with and I know the majority of it was internal for me but damn it it took Direction it took help yeah and as much as I can give back to PE the more I can be here you know I’m here today um the more I can be here the more I can do even if it’s just jumping on something online it’s giving back and helping build a process that I know works and being a part of other successes even if I can’t be in the room with them if I can be there in spirit if I can tell a story if I can share a slideshow they see this they see things we filmed previously whatever we can do to help because that’s what we’re here for we’re here for each other as much as we’re here for ourselves yeah yeah it’s a beautiful thing man and I like to I mean I called Austin three weeks ago I was like hey can you come to Colorado for a week he’s like you know what man I’m going to take a week of PTO this week let me just move it I’ll be there he arrived before I even got back from my vacation you like he was here he’s like what are we doing boss you know ready to go man let’s check it let’s go let’s go man I’m ready Spike want to chase some cars let’s do it and I feel that like um that loving recovery support from you on the peak side and even with you know people that you didn’t know in the facility today I could tell just from an energetic perspective it was just like it was connecting it was supportive it was Hey and you know what these people are walking through so there’s nobody better to kind of guide them or inform that or speak to it than somebody who’s been in their shoes yeah absolutely and I I would love to do more of them you know um from a from a client perspective you know a lot of people that you have working there now were actually attending Peaks as somebody who needed help yeah and they’ve taken that same side and now they’re they have this opportunity to give back to be part of the process and help teach and maintain others and work with them and I love that aspect I wish you guys were in Kentucky I know or Wyoming or Wyoming crack open that Wyoming door let’s go I know that’d be so cool well in support of you know the Peaks mission and vision which is to save lives through quality of care and or to save lives and disrupt the industry through quality of care what would you say to somebody who’s the phone’s sitting right there and they have a million pound block of Shame on top of them and they’re on the fence I don’t know if this is for me I don’t know if this is I don’t know if this is something I can do I don’t know if recovery is possible four years oh my God he’s probably lying you know what do you say to that person who’s really vulnerable right now and sitting in that fox hole with nobody so this this way is enough I can sit here and do these things with it but when you put it here and you know that if I pick that up and push send on a button that’s for treatment a lot of people think [ ] I’m giving uph but you’re not you stopped giving up yeah so you can take all that weight and the [ ] that’s on top of it and swipe it aside because even when you call that number you don’t have to be like yeah I need to check in yeah I’m [ ] up I need to go right I’m a drunk I’m a piece of [ __ ] Etc no you can call and be like hey I think I might have a problem can you tell me how your process works and somebody from the admission side and a lot of them have been part of the program from the other side too somebody from admissions would be like yeah man we understand so what’s going on tell me a little bit more yeah here’s what we offer here’s what we could probably work with do you want me to see if I can pre-qualify you do you want to open a Gateway for it or do you just want info do you want me to shoot you a call back tomorrow and they open the door for for it and they still have the ability to make their own decision to to put themselves in the yes I want help and now they have a friend that’s going to help them make that decision and it’s not just Peaks you can call your buddies next door you can walk into any AA spot a lot of people don’t know this one there’s an app out there called meeting guide throw it on your phone and no matter where you’re at you drop in the zip code it’ll tell you what meetings are where at what time in that zip code yeah what’s really cool about that too is it’s like 12 stepper or not there’s people who care yeah and they’re in recovery and what I love about that 12ep Fellowship is it’s everywhere everywhere every country every I don’t know about I’m sure they got an anut 100% I’m will to bet there’s somebody down the station
going the promises yep exactly well I it just been really amazing having the opportunity to connect with you over the last couple of days and I kind of wanted to wrap up the show with you know my favorite college basketball coach of all of all time Jimmy Bano right North Carolina State national champs went in against Houston Houston was the number one seed nearly undefeated Keem elijahwan Clyde Drexler um by lamama Jama they were all but a shoe in to win the title and this guy came in I think he was seated it was an upper seat six or something six or seven and he came in and he beat that team and one of his famous quotes was don’t give up don’t ever give up and when I think about your story and I think about some of these very intense inflection points it reminds me of that quote and you’re one of those people that and it’s not like today at four years sober you don’t have complications from the decisions you made in the past you keep showing up and you don’t give up no matter what how do you do that day by day every day but with confidence yeah so once you’ve won a title and for me it was walking in the door and knowing that I had 14 days without a drink and I was going to go put some help behind me and make things happen once you win that first title you know what victory feels like and that first title might just be the picking up the phone it might be tapping the neighbor on the shoulder but you know what victory feels like now because you made that first piece of it so the never giving up I could have laid down and given up quick and easy it have taken nothing it probably would have taken two more drinks Y and that in fact I’ve seen people run off campus and go drink for far less harsh news than you received three days into your stay yeah I mean I had a billy Ru score that hit uh 29 I believe is what it was 27 29 was all the hell the way up there and that that’s death I mean most people that’s death but I didn’t let my mental capacity hit that and that’s a huge thing about it too is I told myself and I had the support that we’re going to make it through this we’re going to figure this out because I’m not going to be another statistic like that and here we are you know four years later but you don’t give up and even when you even moving along into it you know I don’t have a a beautiful coin sit on my my wallet right now it’s a half ounce Troy silver if you want to mug me later with with a Roman numeral four on it because I gave up I did quit drinking I definitely quit the [ ] out of that but I never gave up because if I gave up I’d be dead so earning that and continuing to win that Victory every year it’s another championship every year it’s another another time to put on there right now four four rings baby yeah four time champ yeah I’m feeling pretty good right now dribbling the ball out do Brady I’m going to out to you name one here I come and it’s not just not just an individual sport though it’s an everybody’s sport because I can go to parties I can go be around friends who are living life the same way that they do that I used to and yeah there’s Cravings there’s Temptations hell yeah there is but I know if I don’t practice that day and I don’t maintain my ability within this then I’m going to lose and not get that next championship and I’m gonna earn it and keep damn earning it that is better stated than I ever could have I’ve been talking a lot lately about mental health victories you know picking up the phone could be a victory more victories we get the more confident we get and engaging in those risky uh opportunities if you will and one of the things I point out in mental health victories is being self fish isn’t a bad thing as long as you’re not a complete jerk about it right most recently I was at work MH and sitting and I’m getting ready to help coach a a new hire with some stuff they were working on and a supervisor came up and tapped me on the shoulder and asked to talk to me in a conference room that never goes good right yeah I was like [ ] what kind how big of a box do I need to get my stuff out of here and she said PL someone said hey I have a task that only you can do I’m thinking what in the hell is this like we got a room full of qualif individuals one of our new hires just got a call over lunch that her sponsor had passed away from an OD so holy [ ] her support system went back into using and died said I’ve already talked to her and said I have somebody on site who would be okay talking to you and she’s agreed and like okay so went over and had a chat with her I didn’t save her day right I didn’t take her out of any Darkness didn’t realive somebody who had made a horrible decision but it made her feel better to have somebody to relate to and it made me feel better that’s my selfish part it made me feel [ ] great that I could sit there with her and know how to talk to her about these things and work with her and I’m not a I’m not a CA trained person don’t need to be but I am somebody who’s been through the Gambit and being able to say you know yeah remember we’re celebrating life here you know what’s our next step and we we got her a plan we got her a plan for the day you know she’s clean and she wanted to make sure she didn’t [ ] up because of emotion right so we got her a plan we jumped on that meeting Guy app we found one on her way home from work she could bump right into hey guys [ ] day you know and not a person in those rooms is going to go oh yeah whatever or really come on in let’s talk about it that’s the beautiful story of not only your recovery but the the opportunity we have walking through a program like Peaks is like this ripple effect that you have in community that’s just one person the other day yeah you know like and nobody at face value would have ever given you the opportunity to help anyone and here we are in my opinion changing the world one day at a time grateful to do it with you yeah it’s a butterfly effect too because you gave me the ability to put myself in a good spot you helped coach me through it everybody there took the reins and helped drive me from near death death I was dead yeah to being where I am now and I learned a lot of things and I get to spread that wealth I get to share it it’s it’s not big secrets either it’s just hey I got you and that’s probably going to transition somewhere else and continue and continue continue and hopefully you know from the addiction side in recovery but also the mental health side you know [ ] sucks yeah we all know that everybody has problems from the richest person in the world to the poorest person in the dirt everybody has problems and understanding that you can work your problems that’s that’s where life enriches itself and that problem could be anything could be finances because you had to go to Peaks no you had to take the time off from work everything else covered insurance but it could be anything it could be [ ] relationships who knows there’s a million things out there but knowing how to work with them and making the balance in there and it could be the easiest things that maybe you just can’t get over what if you’re afraid of the dark sounds silly to a lot of people right but it messes up your sleep skyle which messes up your day-to-day function so even if it sounds as simple as that it can be worked with and helped yeah because the implications of one little piece that you just can’t get worked right can go on so far too so the work is there the process is there and you guys are supplying a lot of that and I know you’re partnered with a lot of other folks that are out there and it’s a community and it’s a beautiful Community yeah man it’s been so nice having you back in and you know four years removed just seeing the progression not only in you and your story and your community but aligning that with Peaks and walking with you man it’s been an absolute pleasure and you know for the folks out there that are on the fence or don’t know what to do remember there’s a mental health Victory right there may you have it now and remember you’re worth it you’re valuable don’t give up don’t ever give up until next time peace [Music] you

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Episode 126Bridging the Gap: Recovery & Incarceration to CommunityWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/gS11J38eLXYListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Chris Burns brings Dan Hugill, Activities Director at PRC, to shed some light on the experience of returning from a treatment stay or incarceration back into daily life. Dan, through The Bridge, offers amazing community-building opportunities for everyone who is looking. From looking deeper into mental health, the impacts that fatherhood can have on life, and our human relationship with time, Chris and Dan engage in a captivating and high-energy conversation on topics often kept quiet.

Talking Points1. Meet Dan (0:23) 2. The Bridge Colorado Springs (1:05) 3. Creating a bridge for the incarcerated population(3:25) 4. Future of The Bridge (7:44) 5. Shifting into mental health focus (10:30) 6. Baby steps every day (14:05) 7. Impacts of fatherhood on professional approach (19:15) 8. Our relationship with time (20:42) 9. Final thoughts (22:10) Quotes

“If you help enough people get what they need, you, in return, will get what you need. If we can just copy and paste that, but make it on a case-to-case basis and just have people helping people helping people”– Dan Hugill, Activities Director

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -126- Transcripts[Music] [Applause] [Music] hey everybody and welcome to another exciting episode of Finding Peaks your host Chris Burns president founder CEO so ecstatic today to be joined by an amazing professional but an even better human Dan Hill how are you sir I’m good Chris how you doing today brother doing really well great to see you Dan as our activities director uh but we’re kind of shift gears a little bit today and I wanted to bring Dan on to talk about well the Shir he’s repping right now the bridge doing a lot of amazing work for folks in the community people transitioning in and out of the Department of Corrections and this is a cause that’s very near and dear to your heart and I know we’ve had you on the show before and we’ve touched on this but this is kind of your your personal mission your personal vision and um it’s your dream to kind of walk with people in a similar way to people walked with you um out of the Department of Corrections and into thriv in community so what inspired this uh this opportunity for the bridge in Colorado Springs cool thank you Crystal what inspired the bridge in Colorado Springs is there’s I love that question because um what we had seen these you know have been going in and out of the prisons for several years working like when we would go in there like volunteering for the rf2 the CrossFit program they have in there we saw this beautiful community that they had in there like the camaraderie and it’s just like Sparta in there and then we would find when people were getting out there’s like certain gyms it’s a different vibe out here so one of the things that that really inspired us is like we want to recreate that Community out here because even if they’re like a member of a program or a mentorship program in there it’s like like like how how the my co-founder Matt Clovis says he’s like it’s like going from a hot shower into an ice bath so we’re trying to warm the water up a little bit for him when they get out so like in in that like so we’ll go and speak to them while they’re in there before they get out working with case management to help him have a plan to transition out and have a community ready for him and we do a lot of Fitness stuff we do like CrossFit partner with Crossfit decimate we do boxing over at Old School uh we’re doing uh weightlifting over at grid Athletics we’re doing things they were doing in there were the community with like-minded people out here and people that have shared those experiences helping people become the leaders that they were meant to be like we’ll get a leader from there we’ll help develop them so that we could just have leaders helping leaders helping leaders mentoring them what did I do when I got out of prison it might look a little bit different but we have that shared experience so I help you get out of prison you help the next person get out of prison let’s all go work out together let’s go eat together that was the big thing is just bringing the community MH that’s really really cool man and I’ve actually never heard it defined from hot water to an ice bath you know I’ve been doing Behavioral Health substance use mental health treatment for nearly 16 years now we’ve always talked about the transition and how difficult it can be just after 45 days right and these people aren’t in lockdown right they’re in a community they’re in a holistic environment and we talk about often times how difficult maybe I would even describe that transition as hot water to an ice bath we’re talking about individuals that potentially have been disconnected from the social milu and environment for years yes and creating a bridge right I I love that man creating a bridge for these individuals so they don’t have to experience that shock that can really exacerbate symptomology of trauma mental health pain and shame whatever it might be so I love that cause something that isn’t on the list today that I want to talk to you a little bit about these are folks that are incarcerated that are on really really good behavior right they’re showing up for themselves they’re showing up for others they’re creating Community by the time you see them they they’ve kind of progressed through that system quite a bit right absolutely absolutely we’ll work with them but we’ll even go and we’ll work with the stgs violent offenders people that are gang members and just let them know like when you get out here it doesn’t have to be how it was I’m not asking anybody to put your flag down but I’m just saying do you want to choose life or do you want to go back through the revolving door right yeah man I really really love that and there’s no better people to do this it’s similar to like veterans helping veterans yes there really is this succinct connection and authentic trust that is just there for the folks who have walked in their shoes yes I love that man and and Matt man your your business partner does a great job kind of fortifying that mission I’ve L the opportunity connecting with him as well he’s a great human man yes maybe you could share for the viewers I always like personal stories little personal touches do you have any stories you can share with the viewers I know you have a bunch where you’ve met somebody in the Department of Corrections hopeless M and they’re out in the community today serving others yes in a really really cool way you chat about that a little bit absolutely Ely so gosh I want to shout out I don’t I know he wouldn’t mind but specifically I think I think of my buddy Trevor Jones he he had a pretty significant he had a prison sentence he was in there he was a leader and then he got out gosh I think want to say two years ago if he sees this he’ll he’ll he’ll he’ll let me you know he’ll put it in the comments but but he got he he was uh been around for the Redemption Road Fitness Foundation I think like pretty close to day one like close to maybe even one of the founding members but he was a big part of it he was actually my first experience going in and getting to coach a CrossFit in the Department of Corrections in 2019 down at Fremont with him and we both just got our CrossFit level two certifications and I went in he was like what’s up bro get in here and Coach show them how they do it on the streets and I was like dude it’s in here it’s the coaching this is just like they do it on the streets and there’s all these different gang members working out together and I love that but yeah which is atypical yeah that doesn’t happen in prison ever ever but now since he’s got out he’s up in Denver he he’s leader in the community up there he’s doing peer work he’s helping people getting out he’s working he’s successful he hit the ground running and he’s a prime example of what people like us can do like the formly incarcerated population like like it’s amazing MH it’s beautiful because what what what you’re speaking to is something that I think we’ve spoken to for a long time but without very much movement which is these people need recovery yes right these people need recovery they don’t necessarily need to be locked in a box but that’s a different topic for for a different day so I love that and you’re allowing these individuals right whose agency is quite literally been taken Humanity quite literally been taken you’re introducing them to this opportunity in community for people to see value and hear them yes the new Gabor mate book I haven’t finished it yet so I can’t recommend it one way or another yeah but he talks about two things that create mental unwellness and it is uncertainty and it’s feeling all alone yes there is not one thing that the Department of Corrections does better than create uncertainty and make people feel all alone and so your mission and your vision and your purpose with the bridge is dynamic and I love love where this how this thing is getting started but my question is is if it were to go all the way because we’re celebrating our 10 year anniversary of Peaks recovery um in September yes and if you would have asked me even five years ago where peak’s recovery would have been I would have sold myself short yeah and I would have sold the community short so what do you think if you were in the spot you wanted to be what would the bridge be doing for people in the community oh so I love that question Chris again thank you thank you so one of the things that we do is we have a it’s a like I said it’s peer-led and it’s a restorative justice approach so doing things in the community is a part of that is a it’s one of the the three big points of the restorative along with like the offenders and the victims and the community all coming together for healing so ultimately what I see is I just I see huge events I see this spreading across Colorado maybe the nation maybe the world in reducing recidivism I know that gets brought up a lot in these kind of conversations but in Colorado if we can stop a 100 people from going back that’s 1% Colorado’s 39th out of 50 states with recidivism every other person’s going back to prison the way it looks so the way that I could see that is we’d have gyms we’d have things to go people to do places and people for people to lead and develop more leaders just making an impact taking rights back being able to show up and be there for your families families reigniting on a huge level yeah that’s that’s just off the top one of the things that I think about is just what we can do to serve others because I think Zig Ziggler said if you help enough people get what they need you internal get what you need and if we can just copy and paste that but make it on a case- toase basis and just people helping people helping people yep I love that man and you’re providing an opportunity for individuals that maybe don’t understand the system don’t understand individuals within the system and so often times you know shoot when I don’t understand something certainly in the past I begin to judge it maybe begin to judge it harshly have a negative tone about it or whatever it might be I just I’m so grateful to have you on the show and to continue to reintroduce and reorient the community with Dan hook Hill and what you’re doing and what people with big hearts that just got in a tough environment for a season can do in this world yes it’s a beautiful thing man and the recidivism rate you know that’s another conversation as well but it’s clear to me why that continues to happen there’s not enough bridges yeah for sure there’s not enough Bridges you know and at the same time I want to I want to say that there there’s probably people incarcerated that don’t want to do what you’re doing absolutely and that’s okay yeah you know but there’s a vast majority of people that maybe otherwise people wouldn’t know that actually really want recovery yeah they really want hope they really want freedom but they’re Bound by some of these mental health issues and this trauma and being isolated and locked away in a cage for a long time can do a number on humans in general yes so I wanted to talk a little bit about something that has been a huge transition for you a huge transition for Peaks uh probably a huge transition for the Department of Corrections what has it been like um you know obviously you’re our activities director here you’re the founder at the the bridge what has it been like to kind of shift the language into more of this kind of mental health view of things is to say that you know we believe that everything stems from mental health and that substance use disorder is a mental health disorder yes and so how has it been how has that shift been for you and what have you been able to see in community Through just kind of reorienting people with just kind of different verbage and a kind of a different tone yeah that’s great I I love that because mental health is the stem of it I believe that the addiction is just a symptom and and it can show up in other ways than substance use for all kinds of people and I I love seeing that it’s going toward more towards mental health now I love that and the way that that shows up is like like I I go in one of the meetings that I run over here at the sanctuary we’ve started to shift the language there to mental health and been getting more bu and and people are like oh they feeling like they belong a little bit more and I love seeing that because it’s almost like there was like an Us and Them between mental health and substance use there’s not there’s not and there shouldn’t be because our experience is would you boil it down to the mental health like that’s why yeah that’s why that’s what we need to talk about that’s what we need to be addressed and like you said like being incarcerated it can make you feel uncertainty and it can make you feel lonely and if you’re in there and you’re lonely like joining a gang might sound real good because you want some sort of community they told me they love me I mean yeah for sure for sure and if you’re accepted by that you know then you’re accepted by something then you get become a part part of that culture and all kinds of other stuff can can stem from that but then gosh the loneliness the loneliness feeling like nobody’s there like I remember being when I was incarcerated I remember like when I’d get mail when they’d call my name for mail even if it was just something like that like some kind of paperwork just a throw away I just I loved it so much open it up open it up yeah if it was something good like a picture you go around and you show everybody like all your friends you’re like look I got a picture of my dog and it’s just it’s great and it just it felt so good it it feels so good to have people that are there for you that’s one of the that we’re trying to do with the bridge is like Hey we’re here for me for you even if you like you come out you get out you get involved with us and you go back we’ll walk you through the whole way we’ll be there I’ll come and visit you in prison I love that man love what you guys are doing it’s it’s a really cool cause and and I’d love to go back 5 years from now and revisit what you think and thought this bridge thing would be and watch it blow your doors off you know what I mean brother thank you one of the things we were chatting about before the show and we’ve really it’s just been top of mind for both of us in this season you know over the last six months we’ve you know we’ve dealt with a tremendous amount of intensity and Community personally professionally it’s just been a season for the reason yeah and one of the things that I really like to talk about especially with individuals like you is is we we approach recovery early on and most certainly in the first five years with this really servant heart yeah we just serve others because well it’s true we understand that our recovery longterm is directly proportionate to our ability to give it away yes and so when that saves Our Lives you know generally speaking we’re all alone we don’t have a family and that is our family is a community but now we’re fathers yes you know two we’re both fathers of two and married and how has the transition been you know because as I was saying before the show people are looking at you from the Department of Corrections and they feel like they can’t touch Dan hu call in your experience with a million foot pole um but when they get there I think it’s important to be where your feet are yeah and to be present and how have you managed that personally and professionally and and what would be some of the things in community they they’d want the viewers to know to look out for when you are in long-term recovery and you do actually get all the blessings you were praying for all those years you know yeah so so the way that I I would answer that one is is I want to start from the beginning there like right when I first got out you know I was a a year and a half almost two years sober when I got out I did stay sober through and in recovery through my stay in the Department of Corrections when I first got out it had to be baby steps because I didn’t really have anybody there for me I had a program that I was a part of here that helped me tremendously but I couldn’t let myself get overwhelmed I like if I need to go down to the DMV and pay my reinstatement fee to get my driver’s license done today that’s one baby step if I just did one a day like like Darren Hardy talks about in The Compound Effect you get 1% better I think Atomic habits too 1% better every day and it’s it’s bite-sized it’s not eating the whole elephant so from that you know I was able to be blessed with getting into recovery into the recovery Community finding my wife but there were some certain things that in recovery I didn’t get to work on and they’re showing up I’m nearly 10 years completely abstinent that’s crazy man right I feel like I met yeah that’s wild yeah so even after you know this 10 years it’s like right when you get sober that’s just the start you get these big rocks out of the way you get these big rocks you escal you excavate them out of your terrain and then the little rocks that you didn’t really know about become the big rocks after that and one of a big rock for me recently was just like not having good boundaries and it’s like every time I get to a new place I get really excited and I want to go do all this stuff and I have to redraw a whole new set of boundaries and it creates a whole bunch of new rocks for me and one of the ones recently that I went through I was just looking at like you know we talk about self-care being a really important part of recovery but when you’re a father and a husband you got to find where you’re going to get your self-care because one of the things that I had been doing and it started to cause some turbulence in my relationship is you know like Monday like like the only day that I have off and I would be so protective of my selfcare it’s like Dan you don’t need a whole day while while your wife’s taking care of the kids and working and doing all this and clean get up and help buddy so that’s something I’ve just been through recently is I I I got to really look back at myself and just be like you you took this selfish thing a little too far Dan and I’ve got to experienc some pretty tremendous healing with it and it got to change my whole perspective to help me to show up better for my wife for Nicole because I adore her and to be there for my kids I’ll me and Ash we we we get doing the Jiu-Jitsu in the martial arts together yeah we have fun ellish he’s in gymnastics oh it’s great but yeah man just just constantly being able and being so self-aware that like I’m not fixed yeah and I don’t know if I wanted you know if I was fixed if I was at a spot where I don’t have to put in any more work I don’t think that that’d be fun you know like so like I’m constantly trying to just keep a growth mindset and just what’s next what’s next what’s next how can I help how can I take of my family first cuz I have like this concept called vertical alignment it’s like you know it’s like what do you value the most for me that looks like God Nicole my kids my work and if I make a decision that like puts one of those above the other one that’s what causes some of the chaos and the anxiety and I just had to get I just got a slap in the face and a check with that recently and I had to realign some of my things so that’s kind of like how I like draw my boundaries and make my decisions is it has to go off of my alignment what I hold most important to myself and I have to be very true to that yeah and it could be tough somebody calls and says hey man you know I can you come help me yeah can you come do this yeah like a gold retriever it’s like I’m coming you know here I come yeah but I love that too and it’s it’s something just to be really really mindful of and and and I think you know I often refer to it the Gabor mate kind of myth of normal is like otherwise unless Dan just was authentic and vulnerable with you everybody would been like Dan’s batting a thousand you know and Chris is batting a thousand and there’s been times in my life when I have been batting zero yeah and the world’s been thinking I’ve been batting a thousand and so that’s what I love about the recovery process what I love about people in recovery is this opportunity to really really connect yeah authentically yes you know yes because I think when we can do that in a humble authentic and vulnerable way we can move into these opportunities for healing and growth yes right but it’s so hard for it was so hard initially and Recovery to to say you know what I got that wrong yeah I would fight your tooth and nail everything it was this it was this it was this it’s like hey man someone’s just trying to tell you how they feel yeah you know yeah and so I’m grateful for that reminder today and I’m sure there’s some viewers that are in early recovery short long-term recovery personally and professionally that can relate to what you just said yeah thank I appreciate you talking about that how has being a father right four years now yes right Asher Dan brings his his youngest son over his name’s Asher he’s four years old my boys have been doing Jiu-Jitsu for a couple years and he kind of warm up with the boys boys will try and teach him some stuff and things like that but what has being a father done or not done for your for you professionally that’s a good one so professionally what what being a father has done for me back to the boundaries thing it’s helped me get some more boundaries because there’s certain things in my life prior to being a father that’s like oh I can take it or leave it or I can go have fun you don’t do that with kids you’re there for your kids you love your kids and
they’re so great they’re so great uh but what one of the things I I’ve really learned from is how to like I’ve never had a problem with letting my inner child out and I get to really do that with them and I and I love that and it’s it’s just it’s taught me how to take care of myself and show up for somebody better and to be more responsible to be mindful to be in this situation with them to not have a social media phone out which I have done I’m not I’m not perfect I’m not lie but like when I’m home in my son and I’m not so tired and he wants to play and it’s like hey Daddy you’re Michelangelo I’m Leonardo we’re going to play Ninja Turtles and I’m like knuckle up bud let’s do it or or my daughter she oh she loves wearing makeup and yes I’ve worn makeup many times and I love it it it just teaches me how to be more present like truly and authentically like hey I’m in here I get this moment this moment I might not ever get it again they’re going to grow up really fast and so getting to be there for them it’s it’s taught me how to be more more present and more in the moment and I truly enjoy it I love that man you’re you’re you’re bringing up something that I was talking about was it earlier this week or last week um this idea of our relationship with time yeah right and and and I think that’s something that recovery has really allowed for me yeah and and and initially it is a very harsh reality cuz I wasn’t you know when I first got into recovery I just wasn’t doing well and and the path ahead was very very steep but today being in long-term recovery and uh you know Sunday was 16 years since I took my last drink my dude been a long time and um but I I really started to idealize my relationship with time I’m 38 years old Jesse ller talks about this on his podcast a lot but he he talks about his relationship with time and what am I doing with it so my boy are on summer break right now we leave tomorrow on a 10-day camper B Trip why because if I live a great life maybe I got 52 Summers left yeah right that’s a great life yeah you know and next after this summer 51 yeah and that’s going to go like a flash in the pan yes right so I love what you’re talking about today is like is if we can be where our feet are yes we can Empower ourselves the people we care about in the world around us in a really tremendous way to maybe negotiate their relationship with time yes so that they can be there for the ones that they love yes you know it’s been an absolute pleasure having you on the show um I look up to you personally and professionally I love what you do in the community um your servant heart is one of the most robust and authentic that I’ve ever known thank brother grateful to have you on the team at Peaks I mean the surveys you you and and terara I mean and The Culinary you guys might as well run the whole company I mean it’s just it’s it’s it’s where it’s at and and and the reason is is because you show up with a whole heart you don’t hold back and what you see is what you get man so thanks for coming on the show buddy I appreciate you Chris I appreciate you let me come on the show and I just want to thank you because when I right when I got out and you were there for me when we were go work out at Villa I don’t even know if you knew it but you were showing me what this like steps ahead in like my longer term recovery could look like and you continue to do that to this day and I’m very grateful for you that brother yeah man thank you man thank you for the opportunity myud go peace

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Episode 125Growth, Change & Disruption with Brandon BurnsWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/jIW6x85Xi0MListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Chris Burns brings Brandon Burns back to the show! As our new Executive Director, Brandon brings back his logical and philosophical background to talk about the current state of our industry, problems facing treatment centers, and efficacious plans to prioritize client care above all else. From maladaptive behaviors to plant-based medicine and disrupting the industry, this team of Burns lays out an information-filled and education-focused episode for all to enjoy.

Talking Points1. Reintroduction to Brandon Burns (0:28) 2. Brandon’s recent journey (2:05) 3. Operating from fear (7:11) 4. Changes in the industry (9:40) 5. Plant-based medicine (11:13) 6. Disrupting the industry (15:10) 7. Levels of care (21:38) 8. Impacts of screen time and social media (22:55) 9. The future of Peaks Recovery Centers (27:51) 10. Final thoughts (31:56) Quotes

“Fear is such an easy place to operate from, because it’s soothing, in a way, to state I know my truth, and its indifferent to the reality that I’m being faced with. But, for the viewers, the impediment to action advances action. What stands in the way becomes the way”-Brandon Burns, Executive Director

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -125- Transcripts[Music] hey everybody and welcome to another amazing episode of Finding Peaks your host Yours Truly Chris Burns president and CEO of Peaks recovery centers so grateful to be here today and even more grateful to be joined by my brother business partner and colleague Brandon Burns so grateful to have you on the show today Brandon and welcome back thanks Chris I appreciate it and all the viewers out there I think we have 870,000 followers at this point so for all of those of you have missed me in my episodes it’s uh it’s a wonderful opportunity not only to be back at Peaks but to be back in front of the viewers talking more about our industry and Leadership Behavioral Healthcare and so forth so thanks for having me back Chris absolutely really excited to get into this episode but I wanted to start with kind of a personal tone and lean into this a bit back in 2020 or the end of 2019 I was walking through a season of life that really required me um to get some support for my mental health um I had gone through and worked in the industry for nearly 10 years um we had done a lot and something that I hadn’t done in that process was find it necessary to take great not good but great care of myself and you afforded me this opportunity back in 2020 having been the CEO and you allowed me to go um have this time to really take great care of myself and I’m able to come back today and let the viewers know and you like I’m back better than ever and I’m really really grateful for that um in the opportunity that you had last summer um we were going through a lot as a culture the industry was shifting we got thrown a tremendous amount of curveballs we had some grief that we walked through and so I know that it was it was intense and it felt very disconnected but you had this opportunity as well to take a little break to zoom out a little bit to be where your feet are and uh it’s been my experience since bringing you back into the organization that you experienced a tremendous amount of growth not just personally but professionally and I just wanted to allow the viewers to gain a little bit of insight into that process that you walk through and what you gained from that what you’re bringing back to Peaks rebound tour 2024 yeah I I appreciate it so much Chris and and personally just filled with gratitude to be in this chair today and to be where we are at at Peaks recovery Cent given all of that we’ve gone through as the challenges you know to the viewers out there who remember my episodes and certainly to you know be honest and transparent about it as you know sort of a process just a little bit of a backfill on a storyline uh you know when Chris stepped aside and allowed me to uh become the CEO and high highlight me for that role we had at that time only success at Peaks recovery centers as far as a business you know driven model is going and I was able to ride a really important wave out of covid recreation of services uh getting us away from some of the challenges that we experienced uh in the early settings of covid and it’s really when I reflect on it as a period it’s amazing to ride things up from a business sense of things uh in Behavioral Healthcare any industry or otherwise it’s one thing to be met with extraordinary challenges that you didn’t see coming in this regard and so we won’t speak to the administrative challenges that we experience but you know January 17th of 2023 is sort of a day that will live in infamy with me as far as receiving an administrative problem that I didn’t know how to handle I didn’t know how to handle it emotionally I didn’t know how to go to a team I’ve only had successes with and say we have challenges and this is what we need to do in honesty I just didn’t know how to show up as a leader in that moment and that’s a challenging recognition going through something that was so valuable at the time to be the CEO of an organization and to be its sort of visionary for that time period to hit such a speed bump and a curveball in the road that completely dejected me from the not only the path we were on but the experience of leadership and what do I do now and for the viewers out there I can only describe the process and experience of dejection as uh sort of floundering not having confidence not knowing how to take the next steps and only knowing how to point at a problem rather than create Solutions out of it and I think you other leaders in the organization at the time saw a distress leader in that regard and out of that admittedly upon reflection and it’s not just to scratch backs here like like I needed to take a step away and a step away from I was not in a position to lead and guide in the way that I thought I could throughout that time period And so taking 10 months away from something you know you have a c the CEO title now I have an executive director title I think that’s one experience that was you know really challenging to feel like in a resume way I’m taking a step back and what I’m sharing with the viewers out there is like the emotional response of like anger and uh frustration and moving through processes outside of Peaks but the gifts it gave me was internal of what was my responsibility in this I wish I could have taken that administrative burden away from the company just taken that administrative charge and said this is what we are doing in confidence I got everybody’s back and this is how we’re going to carry this out and it’s through the process of stepping back going on my runs sematic experiences and returning back to the fold that I had a lot of responsibility in that moment and I did let the organization down and I did from a leadership standpoint not have the emotional intellectual and sort of spiritual capacity to move the company through that challenging time and I think it’s important from that standpoint to reflect on the fact ultimately that um we can take these moments and only move into emotional frustration and anger and whatever and things were taken from me or as I was able to do in my process process through my experiences take a step back hone in on my responsibility find a path to show up better in the future and get right sized with my value system so that in the future if I’m in a position executive director CEO or otherwise um that I can meet those challenges uh in real time and um and meet it with a bigger heart and open mind and have the emotional capacity to uh be still in those moments yeah man I really appreciate you not just sharing that with me but with the viewers I think it’s it’s transparent it’s authentic and it’s clear and I know there had been some Rumblings in community on like what had happened and so I just wanted to start off the show with really clearing that up for the viewers is that the opportunity we have today because of what we’ve walked through over the last 10 years as business partners is um and I’ve heard it heard it this morning I’ve heard the slingshot analogy but this morning it was an arrow Karen was telling me about and that’s what I like in your experience over that 10 months to be as much as it felt like this big step back you were really anchoring into a position that you had never been so you could go to a spot um that was foreign and we’re experiencing that today as a company culture and just appreciate again your authenticity and transparency for the yeah and I just want to you know in addition to that honor like fear is such an easy place to operate from um because it’s soothing in a way to State I know my truth and it’s indifferent to the reality that’s in you know that’s that I’m being faced with but you know for the viewers out out there as somebody who sort of transcended that fear through you know philosophy that I’ve shared in the past and I love and through that sort of stoic lens my attitude now in my emotional state is very much of a Marcus aelius tone that the impediment to action advances action and what stands in the way becomes the way and we are to be a rock in the sea of dysfunction in that regard As Leaders within organizational sets so when challenging things happen people can look to us in confidence that we know the path and can be still in those moments and so Stillness is really the principle of I’ve arrived at the tradeoff of fear into Stillness and now the things that are happening are just things we have to move through and there’s no reason to be in fear about it because there is another side to it yeah it’s it’s it’s so clear to me and huge to your point is like presence affords us so much but what informs presence right mental health opportunities to be where I’m at being seen valued and heard in community a lot of the stuff that you expressed that you walked through over the last 10 months it was extraordinarily difficult for us to come to that decision last summer because as I’ve let all the viewers know I mean Brandon Burns is not satiated with the research the Insight the education he continually educates himself so he’s our only industry expert and so it was really difficult to draw that Arrow back and see Brandon go um and having said that we are so grateful to have him back we’re pointed in just a really really cool Direction that’s sustainable and fruit F and intended for the future and we’re really excited to having back and and and really carry out this Mission and this Vision that you created with the team in the first place so um again just really passionate about the opportunity we have in front of us what are some of the things that you saw because a lot of changes in this field really on a day-to-day basis a monthly basis but certainly over a year what are some of the shifts you’ve seen because something that you did even though you took time away was you stayed AB breast to Industry information new things that were coming up Law changes um Behavioral Health Administration you were attuned to all of that throughout the process so what are some of the changes that the viewers can be expecting and to be looking out for as they’re trying to find a great program for their loved one yeah being on the outside kind of looking in and and not knowing exactly what the future would hold for me in that regard it led to opportunities to interview with other companies and programs that led for opportunities for connection um the power of LinkedIn at the end of the day to negotiate with people and create you know professional relationships and I think overall as an industry the industry faces a lot of the same challenges when I left it those challenges I think is the uh saturation of services in certain areas that applies pressure to how we hire individuals professionals within the community and so forth and I think these are some of the great challenges and pitfalls of the future that if this epidemic continues to rise in the background we are falling short of Staff in that regard so maybe one thing the viewers can be mindful of in the future just as they look for you know a valuable program moving forward is lure opportunities you know group sizes within state standards and a variety of these more what feels right professionally things that should exist within companies like this to deliver the best care possible ensuring individual sessions and followup uh complete utilization reviews to ensure that you know your loved ones getting is care in programming is being maximized uh in that regard but we are running into headwinds from a staffing standpoint as an industry and I think that’s something mindful for people to be of when they call Admissions team your website looks beautiful but can you actually deliver this care uh in that way I think you know as we spoke about in the past from these episodes the natural medicine Health act has afforded um the Psychedelic opportunities through uh mushrooms and future opportunities through MDMA and so forth with these U mushrooms being the first sort of uh front lines of the Psychedelic interventions I think we are getting a little over our ski tips here in the state of Colorado and the thing that I’ve referred to the world as um in the professional lens is that I’ve seen a lot of clinicians turn Shaman uh overnight and I’m seeing really an inappropriate I want to call it at some level clinical intervention of what we call heroic doses of psychedelics uh being given to participants and I just think that’s not the direction this was intended to go in and so we’re sort of still in that unregulated sort of wild west space my hope is that by 2025 when uh Healing Center lures actually come out we can get more right sized as a as a state and a world around psychedelic treatment and move away from hero dois into what is more clinically efficacious because really anything as we’ve talked about over two grams is probably um not clinically efficacious uh so I think that’s one thing for the viewers to be thinking about as we move into Healing Centers what does it mean to do a heroicos and why are we doing that at all uh in that regard and then I would say you know kind of the tail into this I think we still have to get our trauma narratives right as an industry and this will be the final note I’ll put on it hear me clearly viewers out there with PTSD diagnosis and individuals who come from traumatic backgrounds um we are right siiz to talk about our trauma and to live in that reality at the same time I think the narrative has gotten away from something that has happened to us in the past a traumatic event as the thing that needs Excavating versus my response maladaptively speaking to the event and my behavior that’s taking to place that’s where trauma lies is in the now and in the behavior not in the past moment uh in that regard and I think the industry could do a better job at relating this to individuals post-traumatic stress disorder means the stress is still happening in front of the past event right so the language matters here and I think if we hone in on that a little bit better uh we can be better informed Trauma Centers at the end of the day yeah I love that’s very good B mte of you you know and and I love that back to your initial point I think it’s important and you brought up a great point for the viewers but what’s happening in our industry as payer sources are beginning to Crunch what programs are doing is they have amazing websites and all of this stuff but they’re they’re Maxim in group sizes over and above um what is the parameter for the state regulations and so one of the questions we really want to encourage people to ask and in addition to a multitude of questions when you’re calling these places like how many group sizes what does individuals look like just get really curious with it because a lot of providers especially in network are moving to this more robust group size to make sense of the lower payments and so I really appreciate you bringing that up and that’s something even as we’re going into a full- end network provider um we are very integrous with as insurance that that group site doesn’t go over 12 because naturally I’m not going to be able to heal in a group setting or have the connectivity I need in the Insight offered if it’s 25 people and again it’s not safe and so I really appreciate you bringing that up for the viewers I think it’s important to move into kind of one of our core values with that is like we’re disrupting the industry through quality of care differently than when we came up with that core value probably three four years ago I know it meant something then and I think it means something quite a bit different today how do we begin to inform that and not spin our wheels and waste time be very intentional with disrupting the industry how do we do that today I think we live in this world unfortunately where the patient wants to say Peaks Recovery Center is letting me down and we want to say no the insurance company and reimbursements are letting us down and then the patient calls the insurance company and says no it’s Peaks and we get into this finger pointing game as an industry at the end of the day and I think that’s disruptive um because all three of these prongs are really needed at the end of the day to drive a successful uh Behavioral Health Care system so for me I think quality of care is a calling to the behavioral health industry to stop acting outside of healthcare to stop creating programmatic features that are based in how we got well at the end of the day to stop driving psychedelic inter ventions that worked for us but might not work for the individual in front of us and to accept the fact that these are time limited interventions you know we’ve talked about it on these past episodes but you know just to recapitulate recapitulate it today the 30-day Paradigm came out of a state law in the Northeast that said individuals who are suffering from alcoholism in the 70s need more time than six days in treatment it’s obvious to us that they need more time and treatment but the challenge is when we say something like we’ll give you 90 days of care is that right size for the individual are they in care for too long do they need to be in residential programming do they need to be in PHP or IOP and these are some of the navigating features of our industry that uh continues to strain something from an outcome basis we work with Vista research Vista research continues to highlight since 1993 the outcomes and the national averages have not changed above 36% as an industry standard and I think that strain and delay and outcomes is not because we aren’t interested in evidence-based practices cognitive behavioral therapy um uh EMDR these types of interventions I think it’s because we continue to place our own philosophies as individuals in recovery whether for mental health or substance use disorders in front of patient care to say I did it this way so you’re going to succeed doing this way but what we’ve learned is that way works 36% of the time and 64% of people need multiple if not tens of dozens of treatment episodes you know to get well in the process and so some way we have to work together within the model that we are in as a Health Care system use variable length to stay as an actual fundamental feature of this and get right sized with what we can work on within a residential treatment model what I mean by that is probably not deep Excavating of traumatic events but stabilization of emotions relationships those types of things and then better utilize these uh buckets of care that we call ambulatory PHP and IOP more usefully once the individual stabilized now we can work on sort of more of these intensives without exacerbating the original symptomology that brought them into care yeah no I think that’s really huge and it’s clear to me it it almost feels like individualized treatment for the first time ever yeah you know it’s like everybody said we’re going to do these things but a lot of times we’re coming in we’re like everybody does grief and loss everybody does identity and purpose everybody does relationship well what if just what if if the individuals coming in need skill building what if they need a community wrapped around them what if we met everybody as an individual and approached their treatment in that way I know we’ve been using a hot kind of coin topic words you know these days and individualized care but really what happens is you come in and you do the program that they’re telling you to do so I love this opportunity because it’s an opportunity to get a little bit more Curious and a little bit more clear with the individual to say hey we don’t need to go down into the line done if we don’t need to we can focus in on what the trauma is causing it’s not about the trauma it’s what happens inside of us and uh outside of us as a result of that trauma so I really love this new way is to say you’re not going to come in we’re going to put a box over your head and say you’re doing this thing really begin to meet people where they’re at and that’s a cuttingedge way I think to disrupt the industry through quality of care yeah thank you and I know as you know about me I love tangents in the past few years so I don’t mean to be tangential about this in any way but I think when you think about the delivery of care and access to care and Behavioral Health Care the vast majority of Clinical Services the better stated the vast majority of clinical interventions are received in a group atmosphere so go around the group and you have individuals suffering from suicidal ideation low ADLs and maybe psychotic features you know in relationship to their medications uh go through the group and you might have somebody who just has a significant opio IDU disorder or a poly substance disorder go around the room and you might have somebody with a major depressive disorder with some use but not you know uh you know not substance use disorder related in that regard so just taking these three individuals that I’ve have described and put them in a room how does rhetorically I’m going to ask the viewers how does a single programmatic approach lower the symptomology and advanced recovery for each individual within that setting never mind in the state of Colorado the behavioral health administration the group size is not greater than 12 so just put 12 people inside that group at the end of the day how does a program atic intervention speak to the symptomology of each individual it’s rhetorical because it is nearly impossible when we ask it in that framework so from a group perspective we need to be more creative in our approaches to that and more honest with family systems about the maximum possibility of delivering interventions in time limited Services uh at the end of the day I believe I had a follow-up point to the group sitting at the end of the day but maybe I can just rest it there and it’ll come up here in the future well I love that too because it it really points to this piece of a greater process right and you you pointed to length of stay and and not excluding these really valuable intensives that have been around for a while that we know we can extrapolate really good information from and growth it’s just doing them at the right time and at the right size which is something we haven’t really looked at in this industry is this person ready to receive this service is it going to exacerbate symptoms fine then we’re not doing it and so I think it paints a very clear picture for people coming into care that we are potentially moving into something that Peaks recovery that could treat each person as an individual and begin to back up what we talk about a lot which is treating suffering yeah absolutely and what if family systems knew the correct language at the end of the day for how this is working it’s not a program it’s called levels of care it’s residential PHP IOP outpatient that’s how it works what is it based in it’s based in Asam ter you know criteria what do those standards mean what does the behavioral health administration here in Colorado mean all of these external bodies are applying pressure to these models at the end of the day and so when I think about that original sort of cycle between provider uh manag Care Systems and patients at the end of the day all of these things are applying at one time and so removing the hyperbolic language as an opportunity and informing family systems how this actually works I think would be actually very healing for the family system coming in to know why Johnny just got stepped down to this thing called PHP when you said it could could be for 30 days at the same time because that’s the expectation of the Managed Care Systems and I think it would provide a lot more insights to the individual who’s moving through care about what I need to be working on and to not sort of get uh comfortable about this position that I’m in because somebody told me I was guaranteed you know these time frames and I guess the last thing I’ll add to it you know one of the one of the thing that strikes me kind of is absurd in our industry from a quality standpoint right now is like we know these cell phone devices we know social media at the end the day is messing with our brains there’s not a person you can walk to In This World right now I think that’s paying any attention to this that this isn’t causing a lot of harm especially to adolescents to adults from our attention and consumption standpoint so an ad that says something like come into programming get your cell phone here today one yeah cell phones matter in this world like we need them at another Point like these are behavioral health disorders and at the strictest level these things are m ING with that disorder at the end of the day and exacerbating the issue so I want to be curious with the industry why cell phones at the end of the day are so important when we know it’s causing a lot of these issues at the end of the day for the individual that’s suffering and to just be mindful that as a family system is it more important to have your cell phone in treatment or is it more important to get down to the disorder and get into Solutions and move into recovery and so it’s not that cell phones are bad in treatment it’s if there’s an ad about that we should probably put our Spidey senses on and go maybe this isn’t where I want my loved one to go yeah yeah I think I was reading something the other day in regards to cell phones um with respect to its ability to detract from our mental health increase anxiety exacerbate depression because there’s this thing that we don’t get a lot in our culture anymore that we used to have as kids it’s called boredom yeah and this boredom thing actually Fosters a lot um thought deep thinking Insight presence presence empathy so these things come up and then at worst case you go outside yeah and so we’re we’re missing a lot of that and I’m grateful that you brought that up because tremendous amount of information on and how this detracts from our mental health yet we see programs putting them on their website and saying you can have these come on in so something to be we of and mindful of of the program structure when you’re going in you know are they there to make a book are they there to find Healing For The Individual because the power of know is really powerful MH you know yeah and I would imagine for a lot of people coming in and we can just put a pin in it to continue the episode forward um for the car drives home but an individual coming into treatment that’s demanding their cell phone is probably likely exceeding six hours of screen time on their phone at the end of the day I mean when we think about that from a day standpoint that’s in my quick Mass there I think that’s 25% of our day staring at at a screen at the end of the day this cannot be part of the solution in that way or part of the thing that uh we need to get well in the end of the day I think for all viewers out there and any patient or client experience who know that you can’t take my cell phone it’s not about taking your cell phone it’s I’m confident that if you put this thing down for 30 days and work on yourself you will see the value of putting this thing down for that time period and just encouraging you the viewers to take that seriously for your mental well being yeah in the 15 years that I’ve been doing this there hasn’t been a single person that’s relinquished their cell phone for 30 or 45 treatments to day that when they got it back didn’t say they were grateful for that opportunity not a single person yeah so it is again we’re back to the arrow y pull it back to launch over a potential spot we’ve ever been so really appreciate that I want to end with you know we’re coming up on we’ve talked about how we can continue to inform the industry through quality of care we’ve talked about some changes we would make we talked about some changes that have happened um some new rules and regulations Peaks recovery is rolling into a very special anniversary um our 10year anniversary and I remember when we we opened Peaks recovery in 2014 um something that was really important to me I wasn’t right sized at the time but I was like man somehow someway Someday my brothers are going to be out here and we’re going to be rocking this thing and so here we are 10 years removed from that day we got Dylan who’s over in it we got you is in the executive director of role and to be very clear and Frank with the viewers you you and I are are very relational for the first time in a long time and it it it feels really good feels like we have a phenomenal and integrous opportunity to move the company in a direction that we’ve never been and I’m really really grateful about that opportunity but I wanted to talk with you a little bit about some of the gratitudes you have I mean 10 years is a long time um to your point and certainly a point that I’ve connected with uh we’ve been able to build somewhat of a resilient company we’ve gone through a [ __ ] ton of stuff a bunch of curveballs in the last two years that have otherwise sunk a normal small mom and pop business and so as we roll into this 10e the anniversaries in September were as connected as ever dyan’s on site our ownership group is coming together what are some of the stuff that you’re excited about in this uh this anniversary season yeah thank you for that the uh I you know maybe as a joke maybe it’s not a joke maybe it’s not funny but it feels like we’re on our nights live like we we’ve put a lot of I think one of the gifts of Entrepreneurship it comes with a lot of fear in the beginning of it we don’t have the spirituality coming into this no doubt I didn’t even know what a PHP was when I started here you know at Peaks at the end of the day one of the gifts of being an entrepreneur is you get realtime life lessons along the way as a professional not just in behavioral health care but a person who’s come to recognize the values in running a business and something like Behavioral Health is there are clinicians and doctors who come in with all of this intrinsic motivation to treat the patient that’s in front of them and I got a big heart and love for the patients I walk by high five in every day at Peaks recovery centers but what this time frame has given me is the gift of what my values are in operating a business at the end of the day and I see especially in that stepb back period leadership strategy crunch in numbers that’s my value system that’s what I love what can I do with those skill sets and values I can take care of teams and operations and systems and allow them to be the best versions of themselves in the delivery of that care and have learned to give them what the not give them in the sense of like you know a mom and dad you know kind of atmosphere but allow them the opportunity to get into work and do what they do best and what they went to school for and what they are trained to do and where their hearts and passions are at because mine is in managing all the systems right so for all the great love I’ve had one of the trade-offs and Gifts that’s been given to me is I used to just carry this huge weight about what’s going on in patient care am all that type of stuff but that’s not really my weight within the operations and so the gift has been to learn things in real time to be able to know what my values are you know as a leader as a professional in an organization and what I mean for the viewers out there as well too is that I hear a lot of you know whether it’s our patient demographic or individuals and friends that I encounter they’re like I want to be a physical therapist I want to be this over here and I think we point a lot at the job and we could do better as a world about pointing at the values because when you know your values whether it’s Peaks recovery centers for me or a hospital system or a tech company or whatever I can work in any industry now at least that’s the way I see myself within this world and it feels like such a relief because it’s not limiting you know in that regard so showing back up to Peaks like the gift is like I’m wholly excited to be here because I know what that values and I can apply these values and skill sets here to the benefit of other individuals Within These programs so you know again just kind of recapitulate Entrepreneurship gives you a lot of life lessons it kicks your ass in real time in a way that you know even pursuing my NBA program here in the near future you I know I’m not going to get a lot of that out of the program I’ve already received the gifts of you know leadership and those benefits but at the same time giving that value uh construct as well too and then I think you know from a Brotherhood standpoint as well too how many people even in interviews outside of Peaks that I’ve stepped into it’s like I would have killed my brother too it’s like we we have killed each other you know and Dylan coming into the organization as well too you know like he’s fought us as the younger brother as he naturally would and then we turn to him and say dude we’ve been doing this for a decade you’ve only been doing this for us for a couple years so like we appreciate the intensity but we know how to throw blows in a different sort of way uh and to survive a process in which we recognize to the viewers out there from like a mental health standpoint we were prepared to start it from a mental health standpoint but we were not prepared to drive it to where it was at and it took took the teachings and lessons from fellow staff uh clinical care the Psychedelic movement a variety of different things to get us right sized and centered to be the professional that we are in this moment and to be the rock I think finally in the wave of crashing water uh in that regard so that would be my whole capitulation of what these gifts have been like yeah I think it’s a really well stated thank you it’s moving into this 10th year um I’ve really seen a d Dynamic approach from you that I hadn’t seen before specifically to what you just noted is you’ve taken this time to kind of zoom out and now you’re passionately putting people in positions that they’re passionate about and getting the best out of them and I think that’s what great leaders do is they look at systems they identify to your point what’s your value here and you put them in front of something that’s really valuable for them so that they too just like us as entrepreneurs and being business owners they can drive with a tremendous amount of fortitude and passion into that process which I think is absolutely huge and it’s been just an incredible joy to have you back in the organization over the last 5 weeks um even more grateful to have you on the show today to be connected and I want to remind the viewers of one thing um that we started with that we continue regardless of what the industry payer sources uh do we continue to run on this constant thread from a cultural perspective it says nobody cares what you know until they know that you care and that is something that will always live in value at Peaks 24 hours at a time yeah and to not steal the hook but just to you know reinvite it in that may be the fundamental aspect of what quality means in our industry at least for a time period is caring caring fundamentally matters because caring is that ability to uh build that rapport with the individual with the hope of exchanging that relational aspect into a future uh that is Guided by a recovery journey and so in the interim period it’s not even though we point at pains of recovery centers and behavioral health programs and challenges that they face and cell phones and these types of things that we’re scrambling out at the end of the day I have no doubt in most of the programs that I’ve worked in there is a team that is operating that cares and that cares for your loved one to be well uh in that regard and that’s certainly the principal and priority at Peaks recovery yeah really appreciate it man so grateful to have you back until next time peace [Music] you

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Episode 124Empathetic Healing & Natural Grounding with Amity CooperWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/T4YrIYsGvU4Listen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Chris Burns brings Amity Cooper of Wayfinding Counseling, Human Herd Network, and Clinical Career Collective to the show! From hearing Amity’s personal and professional experience getting her to where she is today to the empathic powers and benefits of working with and alongside horses, this episode holds amazing information on rarely focused topics. For more information on Amity, check out amitycooper.com. For more information on Wayfinding Counseling, check out wayfindingpractice.com. For more information on Clinical Career Collective, check out clinicalcareercollective.com.

Talking Points1. Introduction to Amity Cooper (0:30) 2. Getting to know Amity (1:19) 3. Managing career and personal life (4:10) 4. Personal responsibility & personal accountability (5:45) 5. Looking within yourself (7:05) 6. Getting people to see their own healing (12:50) 7. Working with horses (16:25) 8. What is Amity’s WHY (28:40) 9. Where to find Amity Cooper (30:00) 10. Final Thoughts (30:35) Quotes

“We’re naturally predators, right? But when we are challenged with a traumatic experience, and we don’t have the skills or the ability or know-how to reset ourselves, we live, and we walk among others traumatized”.-Amity Cooper, Wayfinding Counseling

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -124- Transcripts[Music] hey everybody and welcome to another exciting episode of Finding Peaks Yours Truly president founder and CEO Chris Burns joined today by an amazing guest and even better human AMD Cooper with way find way way finding counseling human herd Network clinical career Collective that is a mouthful isn’t it wow I love it thank you so much for joining us today thank you for having me a pleasure to be here yeah so good to have you I had a chance to connect with AMD probably about six weeks ago on a call and just got to learn a little bit about what you do and why you do it and something I want to touch on early and often is you’ve done something really unique and I think kind of atypical in our field is you’ve developed three different businesses with respect to meeting individuals where they’re at I think it’s really really unique you don’t put boxes over people’s heads and you kind of get to come into you know your website reads basically if you’re looking for a solution there’s one and you may have it inside of you yes really cool why did you develop those three and um maybe tell the viewers a little bit about each one of them yeah so I gosh I came into this field I think I’ve already I’ve always been a therapist probably born that way um but I really came in into the mental health space about six seven years ago after 20 plus years as a serial entrepreneur and um I sort of dipped my toes into this kind of one-on-one work with people really as a a trained mediator and negotiator so I have a a master’s degree in conflict resolution and um it was a good foreground and foundation for really figuring out how to sit side by side or need with somebody else figuring out what their issues are and then um back in 2015 my last business closed and I was just faced with a devastating moment of Crisis I didn’t know who I was without my business and I think there’s probably a lot of listeners out there who have had that moment of existential question and it with some deep dive into myself I realized that I really wanted to be more internally driven I wanted to focus my life Orient my life around helping other people find their best selves and that meant going back to school for a second degree in mental health counseling and so I combined all those years of experience by working with others and on businesses and in projects to do that very thing about working with people um on a very intimate sort of level to really uncover and un Earth or excavate what their dreams are I think that is so unique and intention intentional and connecting with respect to kind of the entrepreneurial dream right Gore mate just wrote a book his phenomenal book called The Myth the normal I haven’t read it yet yeah it’s a 19h hour audio book um but it’s it’s wonderful and what it talks about is you know essentially you turn on the TV you look out in our community and the message is go to the hilltop to get the pot of gold yeah and you’ll be satiated life will take on new meaning you know everything you turn on TV it’s bigger faster stronger and more you look outside it’s bigger faster stronger and more and you’re bringing people back into this functional connectedness with themselves and you mentioned something really unique too with entrepreneurs and people in business and even helpers in general is we become really really overcoupled with that career it goes up we go up it goes down we go down how do you help people manage that how do you resource them well I think the it’s awareness right the first thing is is about okay where I am where am I in this where do I sit in this place and it’s about discovering and returning to our first principles about who we are what makes us us what our values are how we’re in alignment or disalignment with our lives and then we can sort of tease apart where we want to go with that we can we can set a course we can set we we have a a an orientation a compass to navigate our next choices by so I think it starts with who we are what’s fundamentally important to us and then discovering what the next steps are that is so rad and what I love about that too you see that R yeah no like super radal awesome yeah not radical maybe radical as well but I I think about it not just for helpers entrepreneurs professionals but why not a life book for people who are new in their recovery from mental health absolutely like oh my gosh like when you said that I got chilled because I can remember sitting there my life book was created for me I was checking out a treatment in 2007 and they said this is who and what you are and you will do these things or you’ll lose it all right and so it was a very canned and boxed treatment plan safe safe it’s so safe I mean don’t you think the default button is sort of mediocrity these days I mean we’re sort of we we want to personal responsibility personal accountability is a really hard thing to stand in today and it’s much easier to refer to and refer and Outsource our life to other people it’s easier to take that path for most of us most of us are not going to spend time self doing self-examination and exploration that’s just you know we don’t yeah yeah so if you are of a different elk if you have a different view a different take on your life and what you want it to be the only way is in and through to get to that pot of gold if you will and and that takes deep that takes deep work and it takes time and it’s not a canned response to your life right so I love what you said there because I’ve been quoted as saying the only way out is through that’s even more intentional to say the only way out is in and through let’s not forget that in part yeah which is really really important to red discover and realign who and what I am yeah you bring up a really good point too because when I got into recovery at 22 years old nearly 16 years ago who I thought I was at that time was much more noise coming from outside in yeah than inside out and so it it’s only been in the last couple of years I’ve been doing this recovery thing a long time the last couple of years I’m finally starting to see the efficacy of that that perfect that resource inside of us that opportunity to go within to put our feet in the earth to get in the cold bath to get the sunlight on the face to move the feet just one step after another as slow or as fast as I need and it took me a long time to get there why has this message feel so difficult to get out to the average human that’s a really great question and it wasn’t on the list I yeah that’s cool um h well I think we can I mean what our lives are very phenetic you know there is this constant looking to the outside to give us validation and confirmation that who we are and what we are striving to be is okay okay so there’s that we sort of have usurped our own innate power to the outside world who really has no care or concern for us so that’s one thing yeah um so true and these are skills maybe they’re life skills that aren’t necessar that we have to learn from our elders we have to learn from people that have already gone before us and so we don’t have and maybe this might go a little off course here but you know in a in an indigenous culture you know there are there are initiations there are initiatives that are set by the elders the teachers the wise people the wise ones who come back and and it’s their task it’s their job to teach the ones coming up and we don’t have that base and I think so there’s there’s that loss here and I think there’s some mourning and there’s some grief around that loss and I think that’s why so many people struggle with addictions I think that there’s so we’re trying to find those places those vehicles to find our inner selves and they’re misplaced you know so does that answer that makes so much sense yeah yeah and it you you get to tell me why and then I get to back it up with a story so I was a couple weeks not a couple weeks ago during the winter Symposium so in February were you down here for the or some so one of the biggest conferences at least in Southern Colorado um for treatment providers and helpers and the like and I was telling you about before the show my shoe stuff right so I’m at the conference and I have to wear these uncomfortable shoes and I’m like oh I just cannot wait to get out of these shoes and so I get back to the office and I put my Earth Runners on and I got my toe socks on and feels so good yeah and I come to do a tour with somebody from the Symposium and it’s a Wednesday it’s the last day of the conference yeah and she comes in it’s a doctor um a pretty well revered doctor here in Colorado and I said said Dr so and so so great to see you and I’m so grateful to have my earthrunner sandals back on it’s like you know after a conference and having to dress up and wear these shoes and I said you know and I just feel so much better having these on and she looked at me with some of the most contagious eye contact and she said you should have just wor them all conference that’s who you are and I was like oh my gosh you see you saved my life you saved my life so now I refuse I told you today I was like today is the first day I put shoes on but it goes back to your point it’s like I’m waiting for this external thing to tell me that I’m okay doing or being who and what I am today right yeah so I love that there’s a lot of those barriers and oftentimes we feed ourselves unfortunately and I’m guilty of this and I think it’s human nature is I feed myself from the outside in oh and that creates a lot of internal disconnectedness oh gosh an incongruence uh a just a just a discomfort like we just don’t feel right in ourselves you know and I think most people can identify with that like they just don’t they don’t feel good like their skin doesn’t feel right and uh you know to the touch or there’s things like just this innate itchiness yeah you know yeah and it is something it’s so interesting you say that this innate itchiness may as well have been synonymous with my cohort that walked through and I’m not throwing the 12-step way of life saved our life from a um a connectedness perspective and a social connected persp of my that we walked with abent of resourcing ourselves internally it’s kind of this just this uneasy feeling and not feeling any sort of embodiment and I had thought and I think there’s a number of people that are really going to be satiated by this episode because I think there’s a number of people specifically young people in our world that are finding resources for their mental health that are being told a story um that speaks to a life sentence of you name it yeah and the way that you work with individuals clients families and the community speaks to something so much different you speak to Healing um how do you get people to see their own healing when they’re being told this external message of it’s not
possible well I truly believe that we have all the answers within us right so my job is I see myself more as a as an ally and uh a witness to their process it’s it’s a it’s it’s a revealing like so I I use a lot of tactical empathy deep listening you know these these skills that I’ve sort of honed in my clinical preparation and orientation I mean it’s all about relating and seeing the person there and I just open that up for them to explore in a safe container and space for that and that could be done but that could be done obviously oneon-one KNE to knee but where my sweet spot really lies is actually working outside with them in concert and in partnership with horses and my backyard all my trees and Forest so at least like I present an opport opportunity for them to discover who they are in in a sense of like an unguarded way because that’s what nature does for us it provides this this incredible access point whereas we can be really guarded and sort of uh shed up we could put a lot of we wear a lot of armor every day if I hope I’m not going down rabit here but like it’s it’s just like we’re so guarded against actually feeling something or showing ourselves and that’s what makes my work so powerful is that none of that is needed it’s just just giving an opportunity and an opening to explore and and let all of that armor be shedded and released gosh I can actually when you talked about your backyard the 40 acres yeah that you have in the horse and I my mind went right to that spot with like the Sun out and the trees and I thought to myself why would we not combine therapy with nature you know it’s the best form of therapy out there how cool some of our best therapists over the last 10 years in peaks in my opinion are the ones that I can look out my office window and see them walking down a path outside yeah or walking around the trail just getting some fresh air and sunshine walk and talk walk and talk yeah there’s some that really happens there absolutely oh that’s so cool and that kind of dubils into my next point something that I truly believe in is equin assisted therapy since I’ve lived in Colorado Springs I’ve become an even bigger believer in it because of all the veterans who have found healing and strength and equinity within that modality however as we talked about before the show I think there’s some people that try to actuate that modality that do it at complete and utter disservice unfortunately with the way that they show up or the way they don’t show up so I wanted you to light a passion under the viewers today and just talk about why you believe so wholeheartedly in this research in this modality and in this opportunity for people to heal with horses oh my goodness I love that sort of introduction and oh a lot of pressure a lot of pressure um well okay so I can speak from personal experience I I didn’t grow up around horses I came to this work late in life um it’s only in the last 8 10 years that horses have been an integral part of my daily life practice uh just engagement and it’s changed it’s changed my orientation on my view my world view um my practice and um the bottom line is that horses are magic and they are my spirit animal um and I had an opportunity was something that was presented in in my graduate training and there was this flyer that showed up on the on the pin board and it said come spend a day with horses and that experience changed my whole trajectory of how I was going to be a therapist in the world and I walked out into the arena and I was at uh surrounding by three horses at Liberty so that’s without any halter or any any any sort of line lead anything and it was such a powerful profound moment for me that I knew that when I walked out of that space that this was what I was going to do for the rest of my life and so that is sort of like an anecdotal experience that thousands of people have recorded it’s a qualitative example some value of how wonderful and profound being up close and personal with a thousand PB animal can be okay then there’s all this 30y year historical research and data to back that fact that being and surrounded and companioned with or joined up with an animal in the healing domain um healing and transformation occurs faster it’s longlasting it changes perspectives it changes life trajectories and recovery and is possible like you don’t have to stay in this one place with this one label if you will of like I’m always in recovery or I’m always this I’m always recovering from trauma or I’ve lived my trauma like the the it is so powerful I don’t it’s hard to put into words here but let’s see so horses have this unique ability they are they are prey animals and they survive by being in a heard they have an incredible sensient and intuitive way way of reading their environment and when humans we’re naturally Predators right but when we are challenged with a traumatic experience and we don’t have the skills or the ability or to know how to to reset ourselves we live and we walk amongst others traumatized and and I know that the work that you do you can speak to that you see this every day the people are just sort of heavy heavy yeah well all horses do is live in the present moment they they’re not thinking about yesterday they’re not thinking about tomorrow it’s about right here and now and they want to know that if you’re going to come up and be next to them are you going to be with them or are you going to be distracted and it challenges you and it brings you so quickly into the present moment it’s like instantaneous and things shift for the individual and it the horse’s presence acts as a mirror it reflects back your attitude your stance your your breath um it’s it’s all of these Nuance somatic uh results that you see and you watch an individual as as a witness to that and the work that I do I actually am not doing anything in in that in in that space like I’m noticing I’m bringing attention or awareness to what is arising in that moment and I may point that out but it’s all about processing and giving voice to that experience that that human being is that individual is having I love that that’s a lot no and it makes it makes total sense to me is last time I did equin therapy I was 22 years old I was at Cottonwood day Tucson and I was scared to death why I was scared to death of everything yeah not just the horse my existence being present holding space so I remember being like oh this isn’t for me you know and actually get chill saying that now when you get kind of eloquently describe what holding space in equin therapy can do for an individual that’s really profound and simple tool so simple to use so simple and again like I think it goes back to the this I think there’s a golden thread here that’s being connected here in our conversation because we originally started talking about this Earth thing right and there is um being able to lock in or connect in and ground ourselves it allows us to be we’re stepping into the arena of life here and so there’s a metaphor for that space that I create uh during each session it’s like you walk through the gate You observe first and then you walk in and you say are you ready you know and then you sort of enter the arena you enter the the horse world and it’s the subliminal sort of like space and then all the rest is is the magic I mean it’s just the engagement the slowness the steadiness the process and um and then things happen I mean I I’ve watched I watch
clients just taking the lead line just taking a horse and being able to to walk with the horse around the
pasture takes patience takes acceptance of like I might not know what to do but if I just put my one foot ahead in front of the other I might be able to do this and you see the body you see the body sort of like maybe he’s really stiff or crooked or whatever and all of a sudden somebody’s alignment just like you see that that sushumna that line of energy just like Elevate them they just walk taller they walk Fuller they’re more open the horse’s ears perk up the but the yeah there’s something that joins up and it’s so magical powerful and beautiful that is so wonderful in fact you know since we started with the earthing thing it might be top of mind for me to do some Equine Therapy I think that would be really cool I think I’m in a really funky spot in my life to really receive that resource um because as you’re as you’re talking about I’m like maybe that could be me maybe a horse I’ve never held a horse before I’ve only ridden a horse one time and it bucked me off it didn’t Buck me off kind of fell and bucked me off I was trying to help itself we’re going down a hill um but the mindfulness and Attunement that can come as a result of one of those sessions and maybe you have your shoes off maybe you don’t but I’m I’m I’m envisioning like really receiving Earth’s energy yeah while you’re beginning to hold space with and potentially align with this animal that could step on your head yeah right and so there I think that’s important to you for whatever reason they represent you know like I was saying that subliminal world right there’s above and below but a horse if you think about it symbolically right rides across the world um you have nightmares you think about what is that that’s a female black horse that tramples through your subconscious your dream life and what does that represent what are they riding in to your life and so to be in touch and next to this very like intellectual and instinctual ual animal that that’s all that’s pure Instinct it’s embodied right and so and they’re showing you how to be okay with that can you hold the tension of an intellectual body and an instinctual body do you can you know do you know the difference can you integrate those two and you can do that by just standing with and alongside this animal who shows you the way it’s I know I’m oversimplifying it but it’s um is a powerful effective treatment clinically tested proven process and um it’s changed so many lives and it has the potential to change thousands millions more yeah I agree especially if people can get in front of authentic and integrous providers like yourself you’re reminding me of a equin based opportunity I may have been introduced to it by a friend it’s called Mustang medicine uhhuh you familiar yeah I am a little bit differently but the I think Mustangs correct me if I’m wrong but they live more in the lyic brain right they I don’t know about that per se but I think the Mustang I mean we we our country and and in our backyard we have a lot of Mustang sanctuaries you know so they live on the land they run in their herds and they are they’ve been sort of that poster child for like can we can we break them can we tame them you hear and you see a lot of the the horse Whisperers talk about this process the Mustang medicine in particular it just reminded me a lot of what you’re doing with clients in a in a little bit of a different way but they are bringing people in beds or otherwise and doing these intensives and before you know it by the end of the intensives these humans are laying on these Mustangs on top of them isn’t that amazing these these animals that only know for the most part Mustangs fight or flight yeah um are calm to the point where you’re laying on them I mean that is just that’s what reminded me when you were talking about the work you do with clients is this Attunement this alignment this coming into embodiment and Oneness with this really huge and assuredness and confidence and and self it’s really s with a capital S you know it’s like this inner knowing that you like I’m going to be okay I can find that which is so if if that was in a pill it’d be selling off the it’d be selling out everywhere and what’s really cool about it is we want the viewers to know that it’s there and accessible for each and every one of you it is it has been such a pleasure having you on but before we go I wanted to ask you one more question you may have answered it on the front end a little bit um but for the viewers I’m I’m very in alignment with professionals passionate professionals with a tremendous amount of purpose so I find myself asking each individual that I have the opportunity to interview is like what is your overarching why why do you do this why do you fight so hard for this well I thought about that because I you know you sent me questions and I was like I want to bring about I want people to experience the awe the Beauty and the connection with feeling alive and engaged Eng with ourselves and with our our natural environment like I feel that I feel called to be a steward and to to sort of be a way shower for others along this process of discovery self-discovery so that is wonderful I I love that because there’s going to be a myriad of people that are watching the show today that are sitting there with like a six and a half out of 10 quality of life yeah and they’re like ah you know maybe sober 10 years or been in the field 10 years whatever it is and just thinking like is this it yeah want something more want something more and um you really showed the viewers today and certainly um reemphasize my passion behind healing growing together coming into community and some of the resources some of the more cost-effective resources that we have at our Disposal today and so I really appreciate you coming on thank do you have a website you’d like to share with you yeah I have I have a few but you can reach me I almost wrote that I was like she can do this yeah so if you are looking for one-on-one coaching with me you can check me out at wayfinding practice.com you can find everything in everything about me under AMD cooper.com wonderful website oh thank reads really well it’s fresh It’s like got like colors yeah thank you I appreciate that um but I think um as an access point an entry point into all of the services and programs that I do way finding practice is probably the best way to reach me okay awesome well I can’t wait to get you in front of our treatment team they’re absolutely going to love the resource that you’re creating in the community and and begin to move into so thank you so much for coming on today I love I loved your energy and I uh this was just so fun for me awesome and yeah I’m looking forward to learning more and being part of it I cannot wait we we have to have you on again for a 2.0 after I come down to get some Equine Therapy I I want to be in that space on the 40 acres I want to see if my mind’s eye is accurate we can walk Barefoot in the trees oh that would be so cool yeah well thank you so much Amity until next time thank you all for joining us today please find us on all of your podcast Outlets Instagram Facebook podcast Apple music Spotify you name it until next time peace [Music] you

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Episode 123Client Care and Community: with Dr. Marissa PrinceWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/zVx5_xOialIListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Chris Burns invites Peaks Recovery Center’s new Clinical Director, Dr. Marissa Prince, to the show! Dr. Prince shares her incredible journey, both professionally and personally, that led her to Peaks and structures how she approaches life every day. From sharing the value in everyone, what makes the PRC special, and Dr. Prince’s community engagement, this episode holds so much wonderful information and shines a light on our Clinical Director.

Talking Points1. Meet Dr. Prince (0:33) 2. Dr. Prince’s motivation (1:25) 3. Dr. Prince’s profesional journey (5:30) 4. Everybody has value (8:25) 5. Looking into the future with our Clinical Director (10:30) 6. Forming good boundaries (12:00) 7. What makes Peaks Recovery Centers special? (15:55) 8. Dr. Prince’s community engagement (17:35) 9. Cradle to prison pipeline (18:50) 10. Closing thoughts (20:30) Quotes

“If you treat people like animals, they act like animals. But, if you treat them like humans, they will be humans”. – Dr. Marissa Prince

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -123- Transcripts[Music] hey everybody and welcome to another amazing episode of Finding Peaks Yours Truly president founder and CEO Christopher Michael Burns so grateful to be joined by our new Clinical Director Dr Marissa Prince thank you for joining us today thanks for having me I’m excited to be here absolutely this is a new season of Peaks a new energy coming into 2024 and Marissa has been on staff for about a month now almost yeah almost four weeks now and she’s already got into the process and really informing a lot of the things we do and so I just want to introduce the community to one of our most dynamic professionals and newest employees Marissa so let’s get right into it okay um one of the things that really compelled me early on specifically in the interview process was It was kind of wrapped around your why and how you got into this field some of your family experience early be on some of that developmental process family history and then moving into kind of this professional life and the goals that you’ve set and walked through and um you’ve just you’ve been in so many different places and situations and scenarios of which you’ve drawn experience from and I just want the viewers to learn a little bit more about you know what what motivates Dr Prince why did you get into this and at such a young age been able to pursue and be a part of so much absolutely so um I’m a first generation American first generation college student my father’s from Ethiopia and my mother is Puerto Rican um and so my father fled Ethiopia um fleeing the genocide of the fascist government and so him and my Mom married and eventually separated um in my early childhood and he didn’t have a model of what a father was um his father was killed by the fascist government in Ethiopia um and so my father kind of dissipated out of my life after that and I was left with a single mom and a little sister and so my mom worked hard to show us hey get an education uh follow a good path and I worked even harder to find a different path and so in my teens I fought my way through Colorado Springs schools um six of them and I ended up graduating out of the 7eventh high school but I was always intelligent I I always carried I always did well in school I just like to hit people sometimes yeah turns out sometimes it’s a coping mechm you and um and I had dealt with colorism in my community and and um so I think it was kind of this oh I’m going to hurt you first before you could hurt me and um my mom looked at me when I was much older I was 18 I was a teen mom so I had my first child very very early and she said you’re going to die you’re not going to live to c21 and at that point I said there’s no way there’s no I can’t leave a child behind so I enrolled in school for an undergraduate in political science um I was going to be a lawyer because I said what can I do to change the lives of people who were like me and I thought high-profile defense attorney I’m gonna be rich and save all of the people like me and and as I started my my education I had a class with um Ronald Smith he was my first psychology professor and I said this is what I need to do and then of course as I progressed through my um undergraduate I said I’m going to be in the ba for the FBI and chased down serial killers and then I remembered I didn’t like to run that running thing so I went to graduate school and got um a few Masters degrees um one of them being in clinical mental health and at that point um I started to teach and um I continued to pursue a career or I’m sorry my education uh to get a PhD in Psychology um so I chose to be who I needed uh and to provide assistance to the individuals like me um in different Realms so although I did not suffer from substance abuse I still suffered from something else and so I needed to help those who were suffering I love that Dr Prince and thank you so much for sharing with me and and some of the viewers that experience you know it’s it’s interesting too because I would consider you to be somebody in long-term recovery um from just a disconnected system of which you were brought into right and um I think it really speaks volumes to the viewers today because a lot of the folks that are coming into our program now they don’t struggle with substances they have family systems generational disconnectedness and I think it’s important to mention that you can find healing for that as well and here at Peaks and one of the other questions that I have for you is what do you think professionally some of the other things you’ve done professionally has prepared you to have such what I would consider to be at least I’ve seen over the last four weeks equinity in the face of Behavioral Health crisis yeah um so I have worked a range of jobs in in my career um in Psychology I started off um working with kids with autism and so I was a behavioral interventionist and that’s what I did and as I progressed I have always kind of steered in the path of severe and persistent what we would refer to a severe and persistent mental health whether inpatient outpatient so I’ve worked just right up the street from us um and served many of the many of the displaced individuals in Colorado Springs and then I had I would say the pleasure of gaining information and working in the prison system and I worked from Maximum Security all the way down to pretty low security and maximum I was adeg I I worked CSP um some some pretty hardcore individuals um but they weren’t lost right and so and from there I’ve worked at one of the largest facilities uh inpatient rehabilitation facilities in the nation one of the largest in the state for sure um and as you know I I was a seven to seven person um and I I even was like why do I need an office yeah we’re here I’m never there yeah and so um I have never wanted to be complacent and so when I came to Peaks um I told I told our HR person I’ll see you at 7 what and she said no you don’t need to be here I thought we were doing this and I was like oh I was ready you know and so just that vast experience and then I was a professor um for almost a decade um I have I counted this morning right when I was coming in here over 3,000 students over that time period I’ve had and many of them today are clinicians in our state that’s cool that’s so cool I I love that you mentioned the death row thing that was one of the things I brought up you know or the team brought up said how do we know when you’re stressed he’s like yeah probably won’t see it very often because of the situations scenarios and that I’ve been a part of one of the stories that you chatted with me about on death row is cu I have a tough time with the punitive direction in which our legal system goes for a lot of different reasons because people are struggling with mental health issues um and we talked about believing that everybody has value we believe in healing for even some of the most worse heinous of crimes and you tell a story of uh people that were on 23-hour lockdown where you would just go and hold space right and talk what why’ you do that so something that we spoke about is if you treat people like animals they act like animals but if you treat them like humans they will be humans and 23 we don’t even it’s illegal to lock a dog up in a cage for 23 hours a day but we do it to humans across this nation every day and just to have a conversation I and I I’ve learned so much from inmates um from these people who are locked up across the United States just hearing them talk and and I’ve learned information about the law I’ve learned how to make tamali out of chicken uh chicken um with the Doritos and Stu Doritos yeah Doritos and dried chicken like the the meat steak the cheese wig I mean and you know and the I something I’ve always said to people is they like to call us us individuals with these degrees essential people of society but all I know how to do is read a book really well I can’t fix a society that will Crum I don’t know how to go outside and fix the ground right the concrete so am I essential or are those people who have learned to survive more essential than me yeah that’s a big that’s a big deal and I I love that you say that because it really shines a light on like value for individuals and humans and I think for whatever reason in our culture we’ve displaced that and L others to believe that they’re less valuable through the way that we communicate with our systems appr and a lot of times in my opinion the systems just need a bit of restructuring so they can speak clearly to people’s value so that they too can see the light at the end of the tunnel of healing and growth otherwise to your point it makes a tremendous amount of sense I acted quite a bit like an animal until uh I got some people around me that spoke truth into me which was light and love through the recovery community so um I appreciate you sharing that of course uh with being The Clinical Director of the team what are you most EXP excited about heading into your second month with us so I am so excited to review the curriculum myself and our executive director will be doing that next week and we are going to start moving things around we are a breast of new curriculum and uh being on top of our game in this field and so start implementing more advanced more upto-date curriculum while we’re here I love that too and it’s it’s just really nice because there’s what we have in place right now has been pretty functional um for a handful or a variety of people I think a couple opportunities to integrate some skill building and some insight on that side of things specifically not not just in our impatient program but the outpatients of levels of care and really tying those together right and marrying them in a really efficient way probably for the first time I’m really really excited about that because we’ve definitely had those curriculum meetings but really being sure that we’re like carrying out this mission and vision in an appropriate way in a more connected way into the future not only satiates the team and allows people to settle there but the client Mill you yeah as well so absolutely yeah I love that one of the reasons that I really connected with you initially is your willingness to be distrustful when things need disrupting right you’re very I would say more pragmatic in that regard you come in and you assess things and you’re willing to um say that doesn’t look right and let’s make a change um where does that come from how do how do you form such good edges you have great boundaries uh you speak so clearly to the team and you do this thing that I really struggle with which is like say no and people still trust you right um so something uh that I have
always said um was you should never be the smartest person in the room cuz then you’re in the wrong room and I heard that phrase when um when I was in an undergraduate program and a professor that I highly regarded um said that he said if you’re the smartest person in the room you’re in the wrong room and he said question everything be curious because we don’t we don’t want you to be complacent so that is something that I’ve done throughout my career is I’m never the smart SM EST person in the room and and when I thought about it as an undergraduate student I said you are the smart he had like four phds I was like you Wen Prett sure and but and I talked to him about it and he said I’m never the smartest person in the room he said you have so much more to offer me than I have right now um and this man also learned to live off of Tire refrigerators like he had no electricity in his house he was just such a cool guy yeah but when I go into a room I easily build rapport because I can easily relate to individuals on a personal level and then I carry myself with my own boundaries and so when I present them I’m going to present them kindly um but also I’m going to present them in a way that hey we need to get this done um so I stay curious I I love that too and curious is a catchy word for me lately I’m really really liking it but what what that does is it allows cuz I can remember in the early parts of my career and shoot the vast majority of our team at least 50% of them are not graduate level students aren’t doctors and so what you do when you walk into a room and and you you assume I’m not the smartest person in the room because what you said was it doesn’t always have to do with this educational s people have experiences that they’ve lived that are really really valuable and that matter a lot I’ve seen that with our culture you’ve been able to walking not just in a clinical room but the residential side and people feel valued in their interactions and um I love that it seems to have permeated from that Professor into your dayto day absolutely every day I walk in and I I think this person has so much more to offer me than I have to offer them and I appreciate every single person um I as I said I was I was raised by someone my entire family I was the first one to go to college um I was the first one to finish and so I I know that my grandfather who had a GED um and served in the military was vastly more experienced in life than I was and he gave me some great advice in life so yeah that’s really really cool I love that you had that initial kind of human family generational experience it created this why and you move into this professional opportunity and you have so much compassion and empathy and insight because of that um which really creates an opportunity for you to be a really well-rounded professional and we’re just so grateful to have you at Peaks and the clients we grateful to have you the team you can tell since you’ve been there um even though we’re getting to work it’s like people are settling and feeling connected with and um a lot of that has to do with you so really really appreciate that oh thanks absolutely uh what is your experience in the time that you spent at PRC in your opinion in your opinion what makes Peaks recovery centers so special everything yeah everything so I walked into a room for an interview with yourself um and our cgo and I sat in this room from day one and felt not just heard but listen to and that from your perspective you’re an owner who am I you know who am I this person coming in for an interview but I felt appreciated and I felt listened to and as I’ve been here for a month I see that our clients are treated the same way they get individualized care they’re not just heard they’re listened to and what is best for the client is followed and I appreciate that and that’s not true for every um place that I’ve worked and it’s not true for every facility out there MH oh that’s awesome yeah thank you for that it’s it’s really indicative a lot of times like how you treat your clients is probably pretty similar to the way you treat your team you know I love that you connected with that because that’s a really important aspect of what we do and how we do it not just with the individuals we serve but the team members and I always like to bring this up on the show but when we started the program 10 years ago it was the Theodore Roosevelt quote that says nobody cares what you know until they know that you care yeah it’s one thing to do it with clients but to allow professionals to experience that same energy absolutely is really really important to us so I’m grateful that you experienced that yeah uh lastly um Dr Prince doesn’t only only work at Peaks and guide our team and our clients into healing um but she does a lot of work in the community um I want to allow the viewers to get to know a little bit of uh some of your causes that you’re passionate about and what you’re doing in the community to make this world great one day at a time oh thanks so when I I came in to Peaks one of the things that I informed everyone is I said hey I need a few days off a month because it something I’m so passionate about is to dismantle the Cradle to prison Pipeline and I do this through building leadership skills with youth in our with youth in our community um and so Peaks has been so gracious to let me take those days to go to and serve over 300 students in Colorado Springs and help them build those leadership skills um help them build financial literacy and all of these different things currently in my car I have 50 bags to go deliver to foster care students um acoss Colorado Springs just up the street um because we complete service learning projects so just as though I am helping those students they are helping their own communities that’s R yeah cradle the prison talk to me just a little bit before what is that what what have you what were you seeing there is this like is it family systems that are incarcerated or is it absolutely what is the I think it’s a community as a whole so what we see um we see this line and it’s often called the school prison pipeline um but we know that it starts way before the school systems get in um impoverish and minority students are more likely to enter the criminal justice system than any other person in the United States um they’re also likely to get harsher sentences um specifically related to drugs um and alcohol um violations and so often times implicit bias is seen as this child of color is the Diller but this child of of um Caucasian or white descent is an addict and so they and there are Judges here in Colorado Springs who have said that that that is how they thought um so it starts when we think of poverty and it starts epigenetically before a child is even born um their risk of being in prison goes up tremendously and so if we can disrupt that um they are more likely to complete and something with the organization that I volunteer and work with um 100% of our students have not entered the criminal justice system and 90% of our students after completing our program say they will pursue higher education or military service wow yeah that is absolutely incredible and I kind of got like chills when you said that I was like wow that that is changing the world one day at a time I think we talk about it a lot and we kind of throw it out there but it’s if you show up and put that best foot forward we have this authentic opportunity to make serious incredible and identifiable change in this world absolutely and I I I love that I love your cause I love your mission I love the passion behind it I love that we have you here at Peaks now and I’m looking forward to fulfilling our mission and vision um with a great professional but an even better human Dr Prince everybody thank you excited to be here absolutely catch us next time on all of your favorite podcast locations Instagram Facebook Spotify wherever you get your podcast until next time my people peace [Music]

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Episode 122The Key to Healing with Dr. Michael PierceWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/DgrG-VZYYx8Listen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Chris Burns invites a very special guest, Dr. Michael Pierce from the Human Condition Podcast as well as Human Condition Lab, to speak on all things healing. Dr. Pierce shares his personal story, industry insight, and professional experience over the past few decades. This episode has ample information on vital topics, from biochemistry and the pharmacological debate to deconstructing the key to healing. For more information on Dr. Michael Pierce, check out the Human Condition Podcast or humanconditionlab.com.

Talking Points1. Introduction to Dr. Michael Pierce (0:31) 2. Dr. Pierce’s reason to help people heal (1:10) 3. Looking into biochemistry (4:15) 4. Deep dive into pharmacological medication (12:30) 5. How to forge change (18:06) 6. The key to healing (23:00) 7. The human condition podcast (24:05) 8. Final thoughts (24:32) 9. humanconditionlab.com (24:48) Quotes

“Most mental health crises really do not require a medical intervention. The history shows that there are a lot of ways that we can mitigate crises, mental health crises, with natural methods”.– Dr. Michael Pierce

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -122- Transcripts[Music] hey everybody and welcome to another amazing and exciting episode of Finding Peaks your host Chris Burns president founder and CEO here in Colorado Springs so grateful to be joined by Dr Michael Pierce Kyo practor also a neurologist joining us from Dubai today virtually thank you for coming on Dr Pierce really appreciate it thank you you got it you got it Dr Michael Pierce has really championed um something that’s very near and dear to my heart and that’s walking with humans um in a very intentional way in and out of suffering and into healing in a lot of different ways and so he was introduced to me by a colleague of mine and just couldn’t wait to get him on the show and talk a little bit about the biomedical model some of the stuff that he’s doing with clients and groups to uh inform healing um before we get into that I just wanted to allow you you to chat with the viewers a little bit um give some insight into your background and why you started the journey to help people heal sure well you know when I was a when I was a little kid I had a a number of health problems and my family went to the standard doctors you know in the in the 70s and they sought out all these different methods and tried a bunch of drugs and nothing worked and then my grandfather stepped in and my mother stepped in and said hey let’s let’s try some natural stuff let’s try an Elimination Diet so I did an Elimination Diet I got better and I I didn’t need medicine I didn’t need drugs and then as my family Grew From kind of a standard American diet a sad diet uh we evolved into you know my my parents became interested in um you know breastfeeding and natural natural health natural labor and delivery my mom became a l League leader and a natural birth coach and I grew up in that environment of lay people women helping women solve problems you know they were solving problems about milk and let down and nurs Ing and and inability to nurse and and and at that time and even today um the the hospitals would say to people on the surface oh yes we think breastfeeding is the greatest thing to do however if you got a little problem we’re just nudge you over here toward a bottle and they would always do that they would always find a reason and and L league and other types of groups were able to get women to understand that there’s very little reason for you to need a bottle most of the time you can you can take care of it yourself and and if you can’t a wet nurse is the best choice way better than formula way better than a bottle and I don’t have to tell you about Nestle I don’t have to tell you about the boycotts I don’t have to tell you about the hundreds of thousands of people killed in in in in Africa and Asia by that company so um that’s how I got into it and I I thought I wanted to be an astronaut or a firefighter a cop or or you know an athlete and then I ended up in Chiropractic and I ended up in natural medicine um because of an injury in college so that’s that’s really my story pretty pretty much in a nutshell yeah no I I really love that and it it blew my mind that I was talking to you about a book that I was reading uh the biology of belief by Bruce Lipton PhD and you were like oh it’s my professor at Stanford at Palmer Palmer Palmer he was at Palmer in Iowa the the the Chiropractic the leading chiropractic school at the time yes he’s an amazing amazing Professor uh returning professor and um his books are amazing his concepts are amazing quite a guy yeah absolutely and with respect to what we do here at PE obviously treating you we treat all types of suffering but most certainly uh mental health issues and uh disconnectedness and Trauma one of the one of the biggest things that comes up for us in our milu with the clients that we serve especially on the substance use side is kind of this fight or flight response and um you have a brilliant podcast called The Human Condition um that I’ve just loved and we talked a little bit before the show it’s just anything and everything that ails the average American is on this podcast with a seemingly simple way through and so I wanted to talk a little bit about I was drawn to that podcast in particular and I think the viewers with respect to peak’s recovery would like to hear a little bit about that how does that work well there’s a couple of approaches um there there’s these PODS of people that have been doing things since you know time and Memorial and they haven’t talked to each other and there’s kind of probably three groups the first one was led by Jay gunman around 1972 he was a guy that was doing Nur feedback and he said you know you know what let’s just figure out people’s EEG and let’s do neuro feedback to help with addiction and let’s let’s see what happens with addiction and so he did some neuro feedback and you found that there were two general types um the groups divided into about twoth thirds and onethird of of either problems with Alpha problems uh Alpha problems or or problems with the with the anterior singulate in in the frontal part of the brain and he did neuro feedback and largely fixed them and then sought Federal funding almost got it and then it was denied and so that was the beginning of of really highly successful neur feedback treatment in in that little insular Silo for addiction the other the next one that comes along was a biochemistry one and that was related to a guy named William Walsh William Walsh is in Chicago to this day he’s a biochemistry professor and he doesn’t do mental health he just does biochemistry and lab testing and diets and supplements and he’s been treating addiction and other types of mental illness for 50 years using lab tests and so it’s not to say that everyone who has an addiction is only a biochemistry patient but it’s to say that if you treat addiction with the 12 steps for example in counseling and you ignore their biochemistry you’re probably going to have recidivism rates that are you know the natural average and you’re not going to get as well as you might and then the third group would be a functional Neurology Group and and diet group that looks at ketogenic diets and carnivore diets and and neuro rehab and that’s the American Chiropractic neurology board um which I serve on and that’s a group that takes care of um you know natural neurology approaches basically gosh that’s that’s that’s really really cool to even even conceptualize in opportunity since 1974 we we we’ve been doing this thing I just heard or for the first time in my recovery about nearly 16 years I just got hooked up to bio and neuro feedback you know eight weeks ago and I had people had touched on it but not with respect to hey there’s this thing that could potentially introduce into your nervous system for the first time you know for a guy like me I’ve been all gas no break my whole life you know and sure so I always tell you know and Dr Jen and some of these folks that are doing this biuro and HRV feedback it’s like we’re just going to introduce a breaking system and so now and I said so what is the RX Dr Jen what do I do you know is it a pill is there something crazy that I need to inform myself with she’s like no low and slow diaphragmatic breathing just 10 minutes in the morning and 10 minutes in night I’ll do I’ve been doing that for six weeks and I have noticed diabolical changes with a with in with respect to my ability to
calm the nervous system that is a beautiful thing yeah because with the fight ORF flight response that’s what we’re what what we’re noticing a lot with the folks that struggle with substances and high degrees of trauma is this cortisol habituation and so being able to really introduce something like that is is phenomenal why do you think we don’t hear more about this in the addiction or more I should say more connectedly the mental health space why why aren’t people seeing this from the rooftops Dr Pierce well I mean I I admire you guys as counselors you are the Frontline people and you should be the Frontline people to deal with this issue you should be the ones that do the intake you should be the ones that hold the people’s hands and and wipe the tears and and dry the eyes and and do that work and and you are and and we stand kind of behind the scenes we Chiropractic neurologists and and people that do EEG and neuro feedback kind of stand in the sidelines to help you with the the the you know the the biochemical part the lab testing the physical examination the digestive stuff all that you know skin disorders how does skin have to do with it you know those are things that are out of your scope of practice but I think that the real reason is is because we were not allowed to integrate originally your profession and my profession was allowed to integrate and we were able to do that stuff but around 1911 there was a a real push that was done um that was called the flexner report and the flexner report was a report that looked at medical schools and it showed by an educator named Abraham flexner where he looked at the medical schools and said basically the medical schools in the United States are fraudulent and many of them were many of them were diploma Mills but unfortunately they used the fact that there was some diploma Mills that were legitimately needing to be shut down in in a in a massive coup to take over all these medical schools in the medical industrial complex and it happened in 1911 1912 1913 and that was the that was the really the big move that really restricted what psychologists and counselors could do in their scope of practice what dentists could do what nature paths could do and everybody except chiropractors was taken down by that and the reason chiropractors work was because the founders of Chiropractic the Palmer were uh Rich because they had radio stations they they were responsible for radio stations in that time of of of the of the world and so they were able to fund and pay for the expansion of Chiropractic and keep it a separate and distinct profession so because Chiropractic stayed a separate and distinct profession it remained immune although we gave up the right to go to go to medical school and get hospital privileges and prescribe and do surgery however we still got full physician rights the ability to diagnose and treat any disease but we were tied and we could not our hands were tied and we could not do prescriptions drugs and surgery and that I think is the foundation of what happened to both you and me yeah wow that’s an incredible amount of information that going back to 1911 and and it makes a lot of sense they’re like yeah we’ll allow the Chiropractics to do their thing but they can’t inform any of this prescribing or any of this stuff we’re doing the dayto day and to your point point I remember when I was growing up as a kid and my parents would lead me to believe that you know there’s these chiropractors and they this kind of woo woo stuff over here um you know we used to have a Dr Jarrett in Prescot Arizona when I first started in the field sometimes we would refer individuals over to him and they were like you know oh it’s just Dr Jared I would imagine now I think I’ve mentioned this before as well I would imagine that his books are full and he is in alignment with where we’re at today and where I think a lot of this energy is coming is people are tired of being stuck people are tired of being sick and they want to find Solutions and you know it’s it goes back to when I sat down with my primary care doc 15 years ago when I got into recovery and he said oh you have hypertension and I said yeah I do and he said I know why your dad had hypertension and I said yeah my dad did have hypertension but since he didn’t ask a good follow-up question I didn’t give him a good follow-up answer and I went on the losartan train only to learn that there was ways to mitigate stress introduce produce good nutrition and alleviate that hypertension just amazing yeah there was no heart disease and there was no profession of Cardiology before President Eisenhower it was caused by diet in the United States I mean Parkinson’s disease toxic chemical exposure there’s so many things small poox uh polio these things were caused by DDT these things were caused by chemicals in the environment I’m not to not to say that there isn’t other typ of problems out there but this was a large coverup by a lot of toxins in the environment and it was controlled by a media that was just as controlled then as it is today yeah yeah yeah I mean it’s music to my ears I really appreciate that insight and I think the viewers will really you know when you get to zoom out and see the timeline very clearly you’re like whoa it makes a lot of sense where we sit today in 2024 and why it really feels like this uphill battle that we need a mountaineering team to get up you know but that’s what absolutely that’s what we’re doing today is we’re introducing and bringing to the table you know Dr Michael Pierce and some of these really extraordinary professionals that have been moving in the direction of healing for the multitude of their career um I noticed on your uh website or on the podcast um that the majority of your resources for health and wellness exclude you said it earlier you don’t prescribed medication exclude any sort of pharmacological approach why well um the root cause of most things are uh usually some mechanism that does not require drugs if a person needs drugs urgently upfront I’m okay with that but my goal would be as every pharmaceutical textbook in the world says to get them off of them within three months if you read every pharmaceutical textbook ever written it says that most medications are not designed to be used for longer than three months wow um even insulin insulin type two diabetes is completely reversible um so the concept that that that most people don’t need medication is really a foreign one medicine is a genie that’s been let out of a bottle and we need to stuff it back in because the scope of of modern medicine is really small it should be absolute horrible surgeries for terrible catastrophic car events and disfiguring uh disfiguring industrial events where you cut off an arm or you slash something through somewhere and you needs surgery you need heroic interventions but we’ve we’ve allowed the heroic interventions of medicine to invade EV into chronic life conditions that they have no business being in they should stay in their Lane and they should stay in that era of of of very very serious illness in fact I want to Elbow my way into mental illness and say that most mental health crises really do not require a a medical intervention the the history shows that there’s a lot of ways that we can mitigate crises mental health crises with natural methods and not necessarily have to beat them over the head with some kind of of psychotropic drug and I I can cite all kinds of doctors that are psychiatrists more qualified than me to talk about that and we’ll do that another time but there are sources that are really powerful psychiatrists that are that are saying the same message that I got it from yeah no no that’s that’s brilliant I I actually want to even reference uh the biology of belief and when they when they talk about introducing these medications and how powerful the placebos were and the only reason that they even got um any sort of data on the side of the people that were actually taking the real medicine was because of the side effects that came before any sort of benefit and so oh yeah those numbers are so skewed and frankly the biology of belief really speaks to the people that believed that they were taking the drug had this change this this this uh this healing if you will and so um I’m I’m really really in alignment with that and it turns out you know when I when I got into recovery 16 years ago it was medication after medication it was stratera it was lartin for my blood pressure it was cakil for this and um today I find myself laying in the grass before I go to work with sunshine in my face good nutrition in my belly and I could not feel better from a quality of life perspective good well you know the the clear viw sanitarium in California and Iowa did those things in the 1930s and 40s and 50s the um the spears the spears Hospital in Colorado did it before it was closed in the 50s so um these these these me methods existed and they were part of an actual ecosystem of care that was expunged wow by the industry so they existed they were part of our of our heritage in the United States wow that that’s absolutely incredible and then you get to see you know families on my side of things Dr Pierce where I’m just thinking of a case that we have right um a couple months ago and there’s this individual who came in um from the East Coast she came in from some depression treated her she went into the community got swallowed up by the biomed model she comes back a year two years later on 16 medications you know 100 pounds overweight and the family looks at me and just says you know what happened here and and I see it over and over I’m thinking of a young man who was in our program six months ago I’m thinking of a mature adult last year who was a physician who came into our program who quite literally just got swamped by this biomedical model and it really chews people up and spits them out the other side in a casket I mean yeah and they’re not measuring it no they’re not measuring it no not at all and then you have these this pharmacological approach again that really now we’re taking medication to treat symptoms of other medications and it’s just really really bad and your point about all the phac pharmacological textbooks um speaking to clearly 3 months of medication as a stepping stone potentially and then getting off that was I got chills when you said that because I had never most of the mental health medications that you deal with had eight weeks of study that’s it wow most of the medications were studied for eight weeks no longer wow that’s incredible yeah so excited to be moving into these opportunities but again you know when you are a provider and you’re trying to do something like access to care and quality of care it’s this real difficult thing to do because the access side says do the thing that doesn’t work and you have to do it or we’re not going to pay you and that’s the vast majority of Americans are trying to pay for their healing for their mental health through a benefit that really is more despondent to shareholders than it is individuals and members you’re right you’re so right yeah it’s it’s a sad thing how do you see longterm Dr Pierce is it is it through having meaningful conversations that matter with the people that matter the most and really getting people at the table to inform healing and um change one day at a time um how do we do this how do we make continue to penetrate this model in our very holistic and mindful way well I’m a I’m a root cause guy I’m I’m a kind of an engineer at heart and um my training and My Philosophy is to go for the root cause and the root caus is really at its core is inflation if we if we haven’t addressed inflation what happens with inflation is that people get squeezed by every side they get squeezed by the cost of of Education the cost of housing the cost of food all these things are avoidable and preventable and they’re usually caused the root cause of it is inflation and that is a money printing process so what we have to do is we have to give people hope and help them understand how they can take care of themselves and how they can do it as cheaply as possible but most importantly we have to make sure that they’re not so squeezed that they’re absolutely dependent on some benefit as you so rightly said they’re stuck that that they can’t pay for it because they’re squashed and if that benefit doesn’t pay for it if that insurance doesn’t give them a return on on their payment they’re screwed because they don’t have 400 bucks to rub together if an emergency happens so if we can provide cheaper care and if we can provide care that involves a little more involvement of the family and and and switches from technology and medicine to to home labor then we can figure out ways that you can do this stuff at home if we can convert the the price of healthare of Mental Health Care from very expensive and very technical to very cheap and very labor-based which is what’s what you do it’s how you eat it’s your discipline it’s your habits if we can convert that over then it won’t matter what happens with inflation it won’t matter what happens with the economy it won’t H people will be able to take care of themselves regardless of the of the economic environment and political environment that they live in yeah that that actually hits really close to home I was sitting with my business partner the other day and he said yeah I said you got to go see uh so and so you know over here it was a cash pay situation and he’s like I found someone with my insurance over here and I said I’ve done the research for you buddy it’s over here you know but to your point introducing the viewers to this really cost effective potential opportunity much different than what they’re walking through on the biomedical side Bruce lipton’s book often speaks to in a very broad way the most important thing for individuals is environment right yeah and and and so how do we speak to that environment you know and being connected within that environment and I want to say there was studies showing that isolation and disconnectedness was one of the worst things for humans Point Blank end of story and so if we can begin to reinform that environment good quality relationship sunlight good healthy ecosystem helps humans heal in a way doesn’t it yeah oh yeah well if you think about the licensing regulations once again you’ve got a you’ve got a restrictive system coming in and saying you can’t help others unless you have a license well wait a minute we’re not talking about practicing medicine we’re talking about just people helping each other so there’s got to be as you said a community way of people helping each other and I’ve seen seen patients even before they’re fully better they get inspired enough that they want to go out and help somebody else and they’re not even better yet and so if if they could be empowered to go out and and and give the good message the good word to other people about what they can do without having to have a license and of course without practicing diagnosis and treatment but just just in a coaching model just helping people understand mechanisms and steps that they can do that would change that would change a lot of what’s going on in in Denver and Colorado Springs for sure yeah definitely it almost feels like to your point the biomedical model has created this need for instant gratification um and when when you tell me something you know if I zoom out 16 years ago and I’m sitting in front of Dr Michael Pearce he’s like all right Chris we’re just going to get you a good Community around you and some sunlight on your face I’m like Dr Pierce I’m dying this isn’t going to work but I think there’s been too much emphasis on do this one thing and get this experience or this solution and it’s just not the way that he works it’s a multifaceted approach that speaks to physical mental emotional you know all of the things and so um I the viewers have to be ecstatic to hear especially for their loved ones who potentially are struggling that we get can change from the outside in and the inside out and really provide a quality of life not just for us our family systems but our loved ones that are that are struggling this is just amazing amazing information yeah it’s the patients often ask um well even if they don’t ask I try to help them understand how did how did you get into this bloody big mess and and that that understanding of the ideology the formation of their condition is is how they’ll get out of it and until they understand how they got here they won’t understand how they’re going to get out of it yeah and really really speaking life into that timeline and um what I love about your approach and we’ll kind of um wrap a bow around it here what I love about your approach is it it says to humans that you have the key to your healing right it’s not some wild thing off in the closet we got to go search for you have the light inside and somebody has told you or wrapped around it a blanket so that you can’t see it we want to expose that and allow you to be empowered in your healing Journey which is so much more refreshing than when I got into recovery 15 16 years ago and they were like you have this disease it’s called addiction you’ll have it the rest of your life it’s an allergy let’s speak to the book that was written in 1935 by the doctor’s opinion that actually isn’t even valid anymore may you find this one day at a time and I’m like oh my gosh I’m 22 years old this is I can’t do this right so I I love the light that you shine and that the life that you breathe in to the clients that you serve in the community that says that not only can we do this we can do it better and you have greatness living inside you I just think that’s extraordinary thanks Chris you got it Dr Pierce um we’ll leave the viewers with this I know we talked about on the front end kind of disrupting the industry through quality of care I think your your podcast Again The Human Condition really speaks to that in a very authentic meaningful and educational way is there anything you want the viewers to know maybe people that are out there struggling with their mental health that have been stuck in the biomedical model maybe families that have spent you know 500,000 a million dollars on treatment are coming in and saying we give up yeah when when when they come in they’re tapped out and so we’ve got two free ebooks on my my website that people can get for just giving their email and and signing up there there’s no no obligation at all no no cost at all ever um you can get an ebook on on elimination diets which is the way to start in mental health and another ebook on how to talk to your doctor about new diagnoses and questions that you’ve got and you can get both of those instantly just by going on Human Condition lab.com human condition.com I love that Dr Michael Pierce is bringing up cost-effective strategies to find healing and then he’s got two books on his website that are absolutely free for the viewers and that’s how you get started thank you so much Dr Pierce for coming on today joining us from Dubai late evening it’s been phenomenal I know the viewers are going to really connect with this information and uh you’ve created a lot of hope for us today so thank you so much sir well thank you for all your work and all you’ve built Chris thank you I appreciate it until next time folks peace [Music] my

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Episode 121Connecting the Mind and Body Through Movement with Tara WoodsonWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/H67uHY1IEVYListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Chris Burns brings Tara Woodson, our Activities Director, to the show to share her knowledge on connecting our minds to our bodies. Tara brings valuable information on how important movement and breath work can be, not only in a time of recovery and chaos but as a general tool for every day! From mindful breath work to client testimonies of feeling safe in their bodies, this episode is a must-listen for a holistic approach to life.

Talking Points1. Tara’s yoga journey (1:14) 2. Connecting the body and the mind (2:30) 3. Connecting client care with holistic approaches (3:35) 4. Mindful breath work (4:40) 5. Leading up to grief week (7:00) 6. How mindfulness practice can be used in a time of chaos (10:02) 7. Different approaches to inpatient versus outpatient (13:30) 8. The other movement through peaks (18:43) 9. Tara’s WHY (21:15) 10. Final thoughts (22:10) Quotes

“We tend to go so fast that we don’t notice these signals that our bodies are giving us all the time. A lot of times, we’ll get to a level 10 when really we’ve been having these body sensations that we just missed because we are so disassociated”.– Tara Woodson, Activities Director

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -121- Transcripts[Music] hey everybody and welcome to another exciting episode of Finding Peaks Yours Truly president founder and CEO Chris Burns joined today by our activities director Tara Woodson so grateful to have you on the show a thank you I’m happy to be here absolutely this has been a show uh quite frankly that I’ve been really looking forward to uh it’s a really dynamic thing that we do at Peaks that I think is really atypical um in our um field and that is actually getting people up and out of the group chair it’s a concept that when I was in treatment I would have loved uh to kind of lean into but it wasn’t like top of mind for a lot of people but the idea that people are walking through a tough weighted intense curriculum something like grief for identity and purpose and relationships this idea of mindfulness comes up um as well as ambulating and I just want I can’t cannot wait to talk with you about that today so thanks for joining us yeah so happy to be here absolutely so why did you start doing yoga initially like what was that about was there an inflection point in your life where it presented itself maybe tell the viewers a little bit about that yeah yeah and honestly it was something that I kind of Ed as just a workout right like it was very Western and then I started going to therapy in my 20s and they’re like well where do you feel that in your body and I’m like what what are you guys talking about feel it in my body I literally had no idea cuz I just you don’t know what you don’t know I was so disassociated from my body and so then they started leaning me into a more healing version of yoga which was slow and intentional and so I started doing it I was like they would cue like feel this in the back of your leg and then I’d be like oh I like you know I do feel that and I was like oh my gosh this is the most beautiful practice because not now I’m have embodiment where I can actually use my body for more than just this machine that gets me to A and B it’s like this beautiful sensory where I get more connected to life and so after I started going to therapy and doing yoga as part of a healing practice I was like oh my gosh everyone has to do this yeah that’s huge like what did it maybe you can talk to the viewers a little bit about like that that mindbody connection because for so many years for me I mean been in recovery 15 years for the vast majority at least 10 or 11 years those things were wildly disconnected yeah and so what is the importance of bringing that together and what can people expect to feel in that right right it’s absolutely so important to bring the body with the mind right like so I always tell the clients or just anyone in life we tend to go so fast that we don’t notice these signals our body is giving us all the time and a lot of times we’ll get to a level 10 when really we’ve been having these Body Sensations that we just missed because we are so disassociated so when we give ourselves that time to become Mindful and connect to the body and be embodied then we get to witness those signals and be like oh my gosh I’m I’m getting overwhelmed right right now and like let me pull away for a minute before I get to anxiety or before I get to a place where I don’t want to get out of bed you know so um I think that embodiment is essential for our mental health that’s so unique too I don’t remember those types of questions getting asked to me when I was in treatment what are you seeing like you know for the clients that you get to work with and and Tera does raiki and sound B healing and yoga and got a plethora mindfulness based resources but what do you be what do you see when clients come in as far as disregulation and what is um not not NE necessarily the benefits but what are you seeing as far as when those clients are able to connect those two things oh gosh and that that’s when that happens it’s like the most beautiful experience like I’m just so grateful for Peaks that they are willing to add this layer to treatment right so this energetics and the movement and the mindfulness because I’ll have clients that will like start just crying in the yoga in the yoga class and they’re just like I have never been present with my body before and then they just are breaking down and it’s like this you know beautiful thing to witness that they are starting to feel that beautiful connection to the body again um that’s just one example but there’s so many examples of them being able to calm their nervous system too just with the breath work and ways that they never would be able to do that before yeah right yeah that’s that’s really big and key too like I wonder sometimes it’s it’s like you know what insurance pays for and doesn’t but like these are cost effective resources oh my gosh yeah and so I’m like looking down I’m like well can I all right so I can breathe that’s free we can do that we can do y I love the mindfulness side of things because the resources can be on all of our tool belts oh for sure absolutely and it’s so accessible you know a lot of times when there I iqe breath with them every day and I have a different like I have a curriculum right and so they’ll do this breath work and I’ll have them do it every day and it’s the same one so that they build the practice of it and I’m like I know it seems repetitive but honestly when you’re at a 10 and if you haven’t been practicing and you’re someone’s like just do some breathing they’re going to be like are you kidding me like now I’m 11 right yep exactly and so if we’re doing this practice at a regulated nervous system then when someone asks you to breathe when you’re at a 10 you’re going to be able to utilize that tool because you’ve been doing it when you’re regulated right and so then you’re starting to get more present come out of the emotion the frontal lobe comes back on and it’s like okay and this is a tool belt just by using our diaphragm it’s the why this thing yeah that’s really incredible too especially with like substance use clients right because if I have a craving you know I have a craving that comes up generally speaking those the last minute and a half to two minutes can I get mindful within that craving yep and then I think when at least what I’ve seen is when people can become Mindful and present within the craving the craving seems to move because the craving oftentimes is stuck in what eer tol quotes oftentimes as psychological time right the future or the past and so allowing that just from a substance use side of things I had you know when I first got sober 15 years ago I was like there’s two things that can get between you and a drink I’m like what is that and they said God or another alcoholic may you find him now and I’m like I want to lean into breath work I want to get centered I don’t want to go somewhere that I’m not now mind you I have got a lot of resource with respect to leaning in and counterbalancing with another human right who’s walking with me but I really like this opportunity of like self-regulation oh for sure you know because you’re not only going to have a sponsor or your therapist or your psych do or your community wrapped around you yeah so it’s pretty pretty cool stuff like um as far as the group process I wanted to touch on a week that’s really really impactful for us and that’s grief week you know a lot of programs and a lot of programs I’ve been to and been a part of um they’ll just walk people into grief week grief starts at 9:00 a.m. it’ll end at 2 and we’ll move through that you and your team come in before that maybe talk to the viewers a little bit about the prep work that you do before we engage in in intensive right yeah absolutely well grief week is a different kind of thing of its own you know you walk into that room and you can it’s palpable that they’re walking through shadows and they’re walking through some heavy stuff in their past and a lot of times you can even witness that they are live they’re not here they’re not here and present and so though the griek we grief week in particular what I do is I try and like I don’t come in at a 10 happy Tera I come in and I meet them where they’re at and then I try to bring them back into the present with like breath work with a meditation and allow them to get into their bodies in a very gentle way um I am lucky that I get to do this all the time and I the other weeks I get to like come in and bringing this like amount of joy and bring them into the presence so they’re always going to be ping ponging back from like depression the past or in the future anxiety and so I always like get to celebrate that my job is like let’s bring you in the present let’s have some fun let’s remember the beauty of life and like live here in our bodies in our breath and you can tell from when I walked into the room and when I left I have them do a body scan before and after and they’re always just like a little more there whether it’s more presence or more joy and it’s like another beautiful part of my job that I get to witness that that is so cool you know I was it I know you’ve been as well but I the Survivor like you think about Survivor at The Meadows which is phenomenal program um but if we go into that room after breakfast and we can engage with some mindfulness now I know there’s a meditation playing and everybody sitting down and like dancing and whatever yeah but to have something anchor you into the moment that’s powerful because what we know to be true about trauma is we’re not up here it’s in my body so I need to access needs to be an access point as I’m moving through a week like that to get into my body to provide some repair oh yeah you know so I really really love that and why wouldn’t you want to go there instead of be here you know what I noticed when I’m in grief week or Survivor whatever it might be I’m like thinking about the letter I wrote I’m thinking about my development the last thing I’m thinking about is growing where my feet are yeah and being with yourself fully yeah yeah it should almost be like the movement team like directors of presence like and being where you at and empowering you to do so it’s a really really cool thing and I I can’t talk enough about I’ve talked about it on other podcasts as well of just how youi ique this is not only for our clients that we serve but Peaks recovery in the community in general and so how can mindfulness uh based techniques be used in the midst of Crisis now you’ve talked about we’ve talked about potentially some substance use stuff but how about on the mental health side folks that actually don’t cope with substances how are you able to ground folks that are suffering I’ll give you a good one like from severe depression yeah how do you get them to turn the lights on be where their feet are and move through that process I know you worked with a lot of people yeah that suffer with that yeah for sure you know I I somewhat treat mental health and substance abuse the same right but in particular depression they’re state they’re already in this very lower level their energy their Chi their Prana is very low and so what I try to do when or emphasize when they are in a low state is actually try even just get the breath to change so it’s going to be more of a breath that’s going to activate the system kind of uplift the system where I wouldn’t tell in an anxiety state to do this breath work but when you’re in a lower State having them do that allowing them to just build a little bit energy inside the body through breath is a much better way than trying to do some diaphragm slowing down they’re already slow right um and then if you could get them to start to do that maybe we could get them to get get out of bed do some movement with us and stuff motivate them in that way but going at it very gently uh and recognizing and just being present with them you know there’s so much you know had someone come in and he’s like I am just so low today like I can’t and it’s really just sitting with them and looking them in the eye and being like I’m here like what can I do for you and that type of relationship then lets them trust you so that you can give them these tools to utilize when they’re in that space and I’ll tell you that gentleman now comes to every single yoga class and it’s just really nice to have that yeah I in I know at Peak recovery we definitely don’t SE separate substance use and mental health I was just interested from a mindfulness based perspective but to hear that it’s pretty synonymous yeah um as far as how they show up I really love that some of the greatest Joys I’ve had as a professional um you know I worked with substance used for 10 years and now we just do mental health we just treat suffering but some of the greatest experiences I have is when somebody who’s uh experiencing chronic or severe depression you know goes from here to here before they leave and it’s just amazing to watch you and the rest of the team and the clinic clinicians do their thing and provide some authentic healing for people and I think it’s a little more simple than you know I think we chocked it up to be over the years so um you’ve spoke about your curriculum right I want to chat about that a little bit maybe you can talk to the viewers about how you’ve set that up and what that looks like yeah absolutely so I’ve changed my curriculum quite a bit but uh when I first started I thought okay I got to do grief work we’re working with the hips like I tried to make it to the curriculum was very like copae but I realized they’re already like doing so much work in those therapy rooms and my goal is for us to just create something that again brings them into the present lets that kind of stuff leave and just be on the mat with me so my curriculum has changed it’s more just about doing different body parts making sure that they have utilize the same breath work enough times that it’s definitely in their tool belt um teaching them to trust themselves a lot of stuff is around intuition and listening to their body so a lot of the curriculum is queuing Sensations in the body so that they could witness it and so they could start to build that trust and that intuition so that they when they leave it’s these are tools that are not just oh I have to go back to Peak to get it these are tools that they’re like oh yeah I can witness this I trust myself enough to know how to utilize this and trust my body enough to be able to take control of my life that’s cool and that’s both inpatient and outpatient does anything change as far as levels of care do you do something different when they hit outpatient because I know you circle around the outpatient levels of care as well yeah yeah pH P I do try to teach them a little bit more of what they’re going to meet outside of the walls right so some yoga that they’ll they’ll see out there um and IOP is really just trying to help them utilize building routine right because they they don’t have us every day with them anymore um so I just try and help them build morning routines and evening routines um so that they can start to have this you know self-reliance and reassurance in themselves yeah it’s it’s it’s wild to think that you know for a number of years at least that I’ve been in recovery it’s like it’s interesting message because it says don’t trust yourself it said keep doing what you’re doing you’ll always get what you’ve got your you’re thinking got you here there’s a lot of negative messaging in our field that says that you’re sick you’ll always be sick may you find people that aren’t you know and you’re providing humans with agency like it and it took years into my recovery to be like oh my God it gives me chills right now I just got good too like I get agent and so by thees days they Haven had the ability to be where they’re at be in their own body have agency probably from a really young developmental age and the fact that we provide that and you and your team does it so intentionally is just very very special to me so cool yeah thank you yeah that’s like one of the things I really want to kind of debunk right is like we need we can’t trust ourselves because we’ve done X Y and Z we can’t trust ourselves and I just really a lot of times try and bring them back to you know compassion compassion for that so that you because you can trust yourself that intuition is there that knowing is there and for us to have this messaging that you can’t trust ourselves because of is just not it’s not real and so I try to bring them back to the reality that they are strong and they are wise and they just need to slow down so they could hear that wisdom you know yeah and really burying that into and it’s it’s an interesting in ction point where you marry that information because what I always talk about impatient treatment and it’s like you’re going to come in you’re going to do a 30-day curriculum but you’re probably going to get three to five years of therapy why we turn the volume down the nervous system settles for the first time it’s an option to be where your feet are at prior to that it’s fight ORF flight we don’t have the opportunity to do that and so I love the idea that like we can experience three four weeks and this is not nonsensical it’s like we used to be told that we don’t make it decisions for oursel in the first year of recovery right but 3 four weeks in people are experiencing healing MH really intentional healing that can walk with them um and they can actuate and pull a tool off their tool Bel for themselves at any given time yeah it’s really cool yeah I they talk about clients talk about it all the time like this is like the safest I’ve felt this like this is a bubble that I just feel like I don’t want to leave because it’s so wonderful I’m always like that’s why PHP it’s like you still get that bubble but you got a little taste of life you know because we do I’m like so grateful for peaks in the way that they whole everyone that works there shows up and it does create this safety where people really feel like they are getting the deep healing that they need so they could take on life yeah and I love love the way you kind of frame that too because it’s like it doesn’t have to go away because we can provide right we know about how the environment informs right it informs everything and so when we come to Peaks and around great people like yourself the environment’s informing all that man I don’t want to leave we actually don’t have to you can build a TR traded version of this in your own personal life so that you can have people in your community that speak this life into you yeah which is really really important because I think the idea is sometimes like well this bubble’s gonna I don’t I don’t think it’s a bubble yeah it’s it’s actually my reality and I’m going in to get this healing but it can walk with you it packs well it carries well it’s like a good door Dash good door Dash you know travels well it does travel well I love it that toolkit that you talk about that the team’s been recognizing it’s like it’s an empowering set of tools um and I just really like that I’ve been talking a lot lately I’ve been reading about to finish the dang book like somebody told me it’s a 3our audio book but it’s like a 12-h hour audio book it’s called the biology of belief oh okay by Bruce Lipton PhD and this idea that like Words matter for our biology oh my God right and so the example that they give is that if you go in to the hospital today and you get tested for cancer they’re going to say Terry you’re cancer free it’s awesome great I’m not waiting for the boogeyman yeah but if somebody who’s had cancer before and they get tested and they’re cancer free what do they say well I’m sure they’re waiting for the other shoe to drive good news is is you’re in remission ah that matters so now if I hear remission I’m thinking oh I look over my shoulder scary but why don’t we just tell those people they’re cancer free and so anyway lots unpacking the book but this idea of words matter empowering individuals matters speaking life into them matters that’s what I really love about the movement and mindful mindful situation that Peaks and that you bring to the team maybe chat a little bit before we wrap up about um the other side you do you got Dan on the team yeah he throws punches right so what’s he about you know I just love him because I’m like this kind of like calm nurturing and he’s like let’s do this thing and it’s we’re just such a per perfect like ying and yang and so he brings boxing and he brings weightlifting um and he just brings like this energy that like will help motivate those people he does self-defense classes for the women and it’s just like a really beautiful class or like balance between us we have one class that we do together and it’s our favorite one it’s morning routine so they start it’s 30 minute class they start with Dan and he’s you know like CrossFit warmups and then I settle them down into a breath work and then we meditate and then Journal afterwards and the feedback from this class has just been like amazing they’re absolutely loving this very intentional way to start the day and it’s a good balance B of like the activation as well as dropping into that that inner world so that’s dope so literally they have a class in the morning before group starts it’s called morning routine I walk into the office and I see it they’re like running in the group room and then before you know they’re sitting but like whoa okay so we have this opportunity to really entrench behaviors in this 30-day model call it a bubble call it what you will you’re going to experience a lot yeah but that morning routine really s satiates and entrenches on like a foundational level what will do in the morning to continue to empower myself provide agency and a quality of life that’s pretty addicting yeah for sure for sure right it’s so cool they have that routine that they started and like they get to get that feeling that they really enjoyed feeling it Peaks every morning if they continue with it so yeah it is a really cool class love it’s so much better than being like and and not to say and I’m AIT really passionate about this obviously but not to say that the 12 steps is bad right wrong or different but it is a tool mhm but I want to hear that when I leave treatment instead of like 90 and 90 or you’re gonna die you know that’s that messaging it’s like I’m 22 years old I’m not 22 right now by the way I’m 38 but when I got sober I was 22 years old I’m like I remember thinking to myself I have a life sentence of mediocrity and I did this to myself just couldn’t be further from the truth before we end today yeah I wanted to ask you one question just to wrap it everything up with a big beautiful bow yeah what is your why like why do you do this why are you so passionate like there’s got to be some sort of story or connection or is it just to be helpful like what is it yeah you know I my why is pretty big uh but I have Addiction in mental health in my family and I see this kind of trap or prison that they are wrapped up in and I would love just want to be of service and like help those people and allow them to just get that little bit of freedom and self-reliance and trust and intuition and growth and so I provided that for myself I walk through my own challenges and now it’s like become my like marching orders you know my heart calls for it and I just want to be of service in that way because I know it’s just some simple things that start to build build that strength for ourselves and we are our own you know Temple we can do this ourselves and I want to empower people to know that they can they can do it all on their own that’s cool yeah yeah I love that too it’s like this this self-empowerment that just didn’t fit maybe it maybe it did fit 15 years ago it just wasn’t being talked about I saw so many people unfortunately use and never come back or do the things that they were talking about but like this is really nurturing it’s authentic it’s present it’s mindful yeah creates a lot of Hope hope for me and I should create a lot of Hope for the viewers out there too so I really appreciate you coming on today Tara Woodson activities director she’s also raiki certified yoga teacher training at what degree uh 400 400 level that’s a lot um as well as anything any other certifications um no that’s good yeah trauma certifi just straight up badass mindfulness yes let’s go well I appreciate everybody joining us for the mindfulness moment that matters today with Tara Woodson until next time peace peace [Music]

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Episode 120Taming Trauma One Step at a Time with the Journey Inward TeamWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/nIlTgECjxfkListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Chris Burns sits with Tripp, Dawnya, and Jorey from Journey Inward to share an insightful conversation about the importance of family programming alongside a client, the value of a sacred union, and the true power of honest conversation. This episode is full of useful information, powerful testimonies, and honest, authentic conversation. To learn more about the Journey Inward team or what they are working on, check out thejourneyinward.us

Talking Points1. Meet Tripp Gebhard (1:10) 2. Meet Dawnya Gebhard (4:25) 3. Meet Jory Payne (5:30) 4. Family programming alongside the client (7:30) 5. The importance of conversation (10:20) 6. Family mission statement (11:31) 7. Dive into the Journey Inward Team (15:00) 8. Looking into trauma yoga (18:12) 9. Redefining relationships as sacred unions (21:16) Quotes

“It’s been my experience that when the family gets into their recovery, alongside their loved one or their person, it’s not if, it’s when it will be successful.”– Chris Burns, Founder & CEO

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -120- Transcriptshey everybody and welcome to another amazing episode of Finding Peaks Yours Truly Chris Burns founder and CEO here at Peaks recovery so grateful to have the journey inward team we got Jory da as well as trip in the house today I’ve had the Blessed opportunity of spending the whole days with these individuals they are most certainly in alignment with who and what we are at Peaks recovery centers and that is engaged in the healing process for the individuals that we get to serve as well as their family systems and I’ve done a deep dive with you guys today and I have to say it’s it’s just warmed my heart to be able to sit with people that are walking with folks into community in the name of healing I think that’s special I think it uh bucks the status quo in our industry and most certainly in alignment with one of our core values which is to disrupt the industry through quality of care so thanks for coming in thanks for being here today we really appreciate your time and I’m going to start out with one of my famous questions on this show and I’ll ask each and every one of you why do you do what you do maybe start a trip well thanks Chris I think uh you know if you look at why I do what I do you got to go back to Childhood um grew up in an fluent Community um my grandfather was alcoholic um and he ended up dying of alcoholism when I was 12 but in the meantime time I was very involved in his life um and and really kind of whether I took it on or whether it was told to me I felt it was my responsibility and uh I developed alcohol as myself uh had some uh struggles with with uh codependency mental illness uh got sober 20 years ago uh continued to do the work um and with kind of who I was maybe a coach savior I ended up uh you know really helping quite a few people throughout the recovery process often at the detriment to myself um and so um ended up getting into the treatment space coaching families about three and a half years ago um got into some other avenues of healing as well ended up uh um you know kind of coming back to our heart and soul of helping families and really uh I think where our sweet spot is is when uh individuals go into some type of a healing whether that’s uh deep therapy whether that’s uh treatment or any of the new alties that are out there today um we have the capacity to kind of walk alongside that individual and then also within their families and help with the reconciliation and so I look at us as you know almost a a post treatment if you will um way for us to kind of come together and help the family heal um whereas you know they’re kind of in the bubble of treatment centers and one of the things that I saw and and from losing a lot of people right losing a lot of people to death losing a lot of people to Suicide um and then also seeing that repeatable pattern you know I I can speak uh for Peaks and I know you want to heal the individual right and you have an amazing family program you have an amazing staff that’s a finite timeline so you set somebody up and you tee them up we know that when the when the individual and I know this for my own TR my own trauma treatment experience is that when you get back out into the real world there’s a lot of very ch challenging adjustments so that’s really where we pick up the ball and help families heal um we also work in coordination with uh treatment centers like yourselves while the individual is in treatment I kind of help the family as an extra support in the background so yeah that’s that’s awesome and there’s so many gaps in that too especially post treatment we’ve talked about before the show it’s one of the things that kind of hurts my my my heart a little bit in this mental health thing is like I see people authentically moving through a 45 day or a 30-day process within our facility and I see their families pick them up and I worry that they maybe don’t have a robust enough after care plan that supports not just the individual but the family system as well and obviously that’s what you guys do at Journey Inward and da maybe tell me a little bit about um what kind of get your passion going about this because that’s something I’ve noticed since I’ve had the chance to sit down with you is you’re most certainly passionate about this opportunity oh I’m very passionate and um the reason why I got into it or why I do it still is the stigma associated with me Mental Health and recovery and um also just educating the family on the process because I’ve seen it time and time again where someone goes a treatment and they go back to the environment they’re used to and it nothing changes and it it goes back to where it was before and having a a child and that’s been through treatment there wasn’t a lot that was affordable to the family as far as education and what do we do next and I myself have been to treatment and like after 30 days it was just like okay good luck new 90 and 90 and they called me like once a year that’s that’s all I got and um that you know there wasn’t enough and yeah just take the stigma out of it let’s talk about it and um bring it more in the open and acceptable it shouldn’t be shameful yeah I love that you know when you’re wise to to destigmatize this thing I think we’re on the right track and it’s a lot of times what we’ve talked about too is it’s just the way in which we communicate the verbiage we use it’s a simple shift in a a small Direction so thank you for that really appreciate it how about you Jory so um my family was exposed to treatment um sort of when I was in my latter teens and it was kind of via my brother or a family member and just the way that that was constructed very very beneficially in our world was immediately was you do not have um an identified patient problem you have a family problem and it this is back in the 80s and we were all like what the heck does that mean and so we we as a family had to walk the walk and I had kind of worked in and around family systems for a long time and group dynamics and skill building communication skills and I just knew the value of how the environment affects the individual and how you know proper soil can really Elevate growth in everybody getting healthy and how toxic environment can really put that all down and no one can do their best and that’s just been a Mainstay of my existence forever and so uh I even when I was a photographer for 25 years as a portrait photographer everything in my the way I would engage clients was about accessing who they wanted to be genuinely not who they wanted to be per se in front of the camera but who were they really so that others could see them and being seen loved and understood as I had mentioned earlier to you in conversations is just that it it’s for me it’s the most important thing through my own addiction and my own recovery it’s just the most valuable thing in my world and and I frankly I want to share that I love that you know and that’s I mean 1985 talking about environments and forming Behavior or anything like what yeah that’s wild I mean that’s really really cool and I I think a lot of people go well you know that’s a kind of a dangerous and a privileged view I’m like it’s a much more hopeful view yeah you know and we have an opportunity within that view to repair and I love what you guys talk about with the family systems I’m mentioned something earlier and I’ll see kind of what you guys think about it but it’s been my experience that when the family gets into their recovery alongside their loved one or their person it it it’s not if it’s when it will be successful yeah has that been your guys’ experience have you’ve been able to walk with some of these families and gr yeah I think for us it’s if you look at kind of what I said earlier it’s uh um it’s very much so so when somebody comes out and uh and they get in the in the same environment without any healing MH uh they just kind of crumble you know and it may happen quickly or it may happen over time but it’s if we can get in there and start Shifting the language and allowing as Jory mentioned for everybody to be seen valued um and loved in that situation it just makes a whole different scenario because there’s new language and new abilities for people to understand each other and um you know again there’s uh there’s wonderful programs out there um that people can go and get support um but it doesn’t they don’t work for everybody they might have worked for me yeah right um but for some reason they don’t work for everybody so for them to have somebody to kind of help coach them and guide them on the on the post treatment um and then again integrate with the family and and just getting the family to start holding some boundaries and and understanding you know kind of their part in it um you know it’s not uh that really anybody in the family is wrong they didn’t necessarily cause it create it um and they can’t cure it yeah by themselves it’s like the same family system that has an identified patient um you know the same Minds that kind of created that can’t fix it without somebody on the outside and that goes for uh da of my family and and getting the help we needed you know we we’re in the business we saw it and we still didn’t know what to do with it you know and that’s that’s that’s kind of a crazy thing when you think about it cuz uh we felt you know hopeless and we’re like we know what to do but we can’t do it and then you have somebody else come in beside you and they say Hey you can do it and you’re like oh I can do it that’s right yeah it’s a special process yeah so that and plus being you know having our own process coming out of treatment what did we need what do we see what did the people that we went through treatment you know what happened with their lives what did they struggle with there’s deaths you know people didn’t make it um there’s quite a few divorces there’s fractured families um and that goes true if anybody does any type of a spiritual you know if you go quit drinking and join a recovery program chances of divorce go way Skyrocket so it’s like anytime you’re you’re really kind of tapping your soul um it’s going to cause outward reverberations and that’s where we come in to kind of help smooth those over yeah I love that you guys you guys simply coined it earlier was like we just get into family systems and talk yeah I mean it seems so simple but it’s a very complex process you know but we just we just get in there and let’s let’s talk to each other yeah that’s really simple and yet profound at the same time what’s what’s well what do you want right I mean you just want to be talk yeah yeah you don’t want to be no one wants to be told what to do you know and so it’s like we just try to work with everybody and find out who’s coming from where and get everybody in alignment to some degree well I think a lot of times families you know try to kind of fix from the you know kind of in their own little kind of container and there’s lot often times some image management and uh and so the pressure builds up and then you know you kind of end up with a lot of Shame yeah and so having somebody come in there and kind of say hey this isn’t so bad and this is you know what jory’s trying to say this is what Chris is trying to say and you guys are actually trying to say the same thing and you know you just start it’s really it is deeper level conversations but there’s an art to it for sure yeah you guys said something earlier and I want to get kind of get back to it especially for the viewers it just kind of had my shoulders perk up and caught my attention but you said you go into families and we form a family mission statement talk to me about that well I think um so one of the things uh when when a family kind of comes together I mean one of the one of the exercises we do is kind of a values planning exercise right so who are you what what’s important to you um and that often times gives me the ability to now see you and say oh these things are important to you and again A lot of times we’re going for the same thing but it’s different language and and different understanding and that’s really cool when you start you know really getting to know each other in the group and then we do kind of a a a process where we look at the family’s values together and kind like a 30,000 foot view 30,000 foot View and then they literally get to pick the the kind of values that they want and then we start working on a mission statement on hey where do you guys want to go what’s important to you and it just sort of helps everybody in the family like have some context to who we are and you know I might disagree with one of those uh values on on that makes it in the Family Mission statement and you guys you know outvote me 3 to one you know that’s life right um we’re not all going to get what we want but I mean that’s that’s actually kind of a RAR yeah and and and and you know and especially in today’s political you know there’s so much generational value shifting there’s so many um you know things to argue about politically and as a wealth manager for 25 years I really saw that Fray on families more and more and more control manipulation money vengefulness well I’m gonna go over this way and do this because you don’t you know you you look at me this way and the reality is like you know families are like a a an organism right we grow over time and like we’re so connected so to be able to kind of see who we are and then come back together and create a mission to me that is just magic I mean it really is cool it’s really a cool process that’s a lot of fun for sure I you know to to look at some of those opportunities is a family system and then to just think for a moment that really well connected families um don’t know each other yeah right wow how does that happen within family systems where you know we have we have Primal people you know child adult relationships which we’ve learned through research is the most important relationship but then we find ourselves unat tuning and disconnecting why do you think that happens because it almost feels like it’s synonymous with kind of the American dream you guys yeah I think well we I think there’s the individual MH and then there’s the the the group MH and we have to have both we have to have our individual individuality we also have to have attachment in our lives yeah no man is an island you hear that all the time you but but you it’s a dance between the two and the and the way that we try to work with it is just figure out who wants to dance What dance so that most people aren’t stepping on one another’s toes sometimes it’s going to be a beautiful you know choreography but as long as we can start with the foundation of let’s stop stepping on one another’s toes then we can get moving and coordinated I love that it’s team playing really it we don’t need to all be on the ball we can just spread out and play our positions yeah you can be independent yet part of the team I love that because the only the only overarching theme for that is like yeah we love each other MH and so like let’s let’s get let’s get this right yeah what do each one of you do as far as your roles on the team well I think we’re all kind of we’re all coaches okay so um my background is kind of in spiritual training uh as well as recovery and then behavioral Finance um as a financial adviser um I was trained as a certified U divorced financial analyst so I’ve always kind of run into kind of the conflict right um that’s kind of growing up in an alcoholic family for generations and um and also being a little bit feisty you know um with that so um you know my role is kind of a lot of times Legacy planning you know getting uh fathers to say hey this is what you’re doing and this is what you want to accomplish but a lot of coaching um a lot of education for all of us um DA has I’m a a certified peer and family specialist sweet yeah yeah and um also I’m a yoga instructor more trauma focused and also I I’m very very well known and or just health the nutrition just how that affects the brain gut connection and also just lived in experience like sexual abuse from younger age just trauma dealing with my own personal trauma and you know family members that have are you know substance abuse also depression and um other mental illnesses and just and and also a cancer survivor too so I bre cancer yeah wow yeah good for you so you’re what’s called cancer free I am cancer free not in remission cancer free I got to tell a story so so when da um when when she was going through her kind of uh trauma around uh sexual abuse um it was during the Epstein kind of time frame and um and so the reverberations of our home was like what’s going on and what ended up uh you know so she ended up doing a trauma treatment for that um really um found strength with inside of her and then just through Facebook she went out and reached out and became a support to women all over the country and you know the the stories of these women’s lives weren’t usually good it was in alcoholic marriages they were alcoholic divorced you know just really traumatized from this so um I think when you look at Jory da and myself like you know the stuff that happens to us for whatever reason we’re Seekers we’re we’re uh enthusiastic about helping other people maybe as I said there’s a a good and a bad to that um and I think we’ve we’ve kind of figured out the healthy side is take care of yourself do your own work um so you can help other people truly um but that’s kind of what we do we take our experiences I’m also a certified uh Fe peer family specialist um We’ve ran uh treatment programs uh Family Programs um and then I do life coaching just with a lot of different uh treatment centers for their individuals so cool that yeah that’s really unique too and I love the you said something too da about um traum informed yoga MH how does that work cuz we have a really really big mindfulness based component here PE because we have a movement team that ambulates people gets them up and out of the chair sound sound healing Reiki yoga uh you saw Dan today boxing all that stuff so talk to me a little bit about that mindfulness based opportunity it’s more of a a varied more gentle yoga and a lot more on your breath and a lot of meditation and going internal but it’s also on the cues that you’re not using cues that are more that could be triggering kind of thing so it’s a lot more in the language but it’s more of a gentle type you know relaxing healing yoga yeah cuz i’ imagine maybe for people who have experienced any sort of you know sexual assault or anything like that you go into Community um hypervigilant right I mean you’re scanning the room it’s is this safe and so I love kind of a a method behind the madness with respect to yoga is like this is a very informed and very intentional process for people that need it to be that way yes exactly yeah that makes a lot of sense because it’s like yeah do yoga it’s like ah don’t know if that’s safe yeah it’s I used to make I mean some guys in in 12 sub groups like we used to make fun of people they say like hey you going to the meeting they’ like no I’m going to yoga and we kind of course and it’s like you know 20 years in the program I’m like yoga is absolutely everybody better damn do yoga if you want any type of mental health you better do yoga body mind wow this thing really works yeah I learned more about myself doing um doing the the training the training yeah oh my God it was so my wife just went through it’s intense like it’s huge and spiritual it’s like I thought I was just going to learn poses and it’s like I learned more about myself than I ever did like at any type of treatment or recovery and it was really internal I found myself going to those graduations and saying to those people like you all should be Inc I don’t know if I was the only person in but like you all should be incredibly proud of yourselves like this is this is heavy lift and in like four or five weeks yep you know very intense it’s very intense yeah she had a similar experience so I I appreciate you sharing that yeah I I grew up quite dyslexic and my access point through that was I was able to read a book cover to cover on an outdoor experience and then I got into a lot of outdoor work and trip leading and uh working with kids through at risk um or at risk you through prevention through education and a lot of integration with nature so it with skill building communications you know just uh prevention so we’re not going to tell you not to get pregnant but if you do these are some things to do and so my whole background was in group dynamics so generally speaking what I do with the group is I’m working with internal family systems now as well I like to figure out what’s going on in your head and then how you can convey that or or bounce that off what’s going on in the group I I look at an entire group holistically and how can each piece fit to the best of its ability I love that yeah and it’s a very sounds like very intentional process the way that you go into that individually with each person within that system and do you guys find that it’s always families that are supporting individuals no it can be any group you guys mention group any relationship any including the relationship with yourself yeah right yeah and a lot of the work that Don and I do is couples work on reconciliation and then kind of building a sacred Union and again this is like coming out of treatment it’s like the best time to do it uh you know I use the anal ology earlier um when we sit down with couples I like to explain and you know it’s like they’re driving to the airport and they think they’re going to Hawaii and then the the guy has a ticket to Tallahassee and the woman has a ticket to uh Spokan and so it’s like you know that’s kind of what we feel like when you sit down with a couple right it’s like they they they literally are kind of moving in different directions so to get them to kind of focus a on themselves but also focus on that there is actually something called a union here and again like life is life life is challenging when you have a big disruption such as a treatment such as you know a death of a parent I mean there’s a lot of these different things birth of children um etc etc they can really change the course for one individual and then the other individual is sort of like what the hell is going on and I think a lot of times it’s like that’s why we have such massive amounts of divorce is because we don’t tend to the kind of relational kind of spiritual nature as we as we can or could as the world has gotten you know busier and busier and more hectic and more demanding I really like that that was something that really struck a chord with me um when we were chatting earlier is you brought up kind of the the relapse rate or excuse me not the relapse rate but the divorce rate when people get out of tree and it’s astonishing I saw that left right back front center and I I was telling Jory before we came in here you know I was on top of Long’s Peak my wife knows this I was on top of Long’s Peak in 2016 and you know I’m eight years sober at the time and I’m thinking yep I’m gonna get a divorce I’m pretty sure the grass is greener on the other side and none of her trauma or my trauma will get in the way and we’ll have this really fluid and functional relationship and if I would have made that decision on that day I think similar to probably your experience as well I probably have made the biggest mistake in my life yeah because today through a lot of hard work recovery mental health aligning going to intensives relationship counseling individual counseling all of these things we are now both seen valued and H in relationship and that’s the Special Sauce totally yeah and I love that you guys do that too for folks that are coming out of treatment not just family all family system stuff but also relational yes um I really love that and I love the way you guys refer to it as a union because that’s that’s what I refer to my relationship today when it’s healthy and in recovery right we are not as different as we think we are and we try to get people to work with that and be like how are we similar and what ways can we show that we’re similar M because we all have the same needs and wants all of us it’s just what are we prioritizing at the time yeah yeah I was really um fearful like when trip for he got sober seven years before me and he was going to all these meetings and groups and I’m like where where does that lead me and also I was very closed off and I was have I had a very hard time showing sharing what was actually going on inside of me and um that created a huge divide too because it like he was doing all this spiritual and internal work and I was feeling left out and um and also strong willed like or I wasn’t able to become vulnerable either so and until that I was a until I was able to show show it with my emotions freely is when we the work really began yeah you bring up some really good points is like I see this often times in treatment whether it’s you know husband and wife whether the wife checks in and pretty quickly you’re forming a community unlike anything you’ve ever been a part of and so in 30 days you your whole life changes big time and you’re coming back and your like am I involved in this yeah do I get to be with people no it’s Clos Group AA you know it is what it could be really disconnecting initially can because the person coming home is a different person yeah that’s when the Divide happens and we we know that um again any type of shift is going to cause you know challenges with all your relationships even though it’s a good thing you come back you get sober you learned how to have empathy for other people through this really camaraderie type you know experience of treatment which um you know moves you really into such a better place but when you come back you know it’s either there’s two things that can happen number one is no one’s fixed when they get out right I mean yeah they might go to AA and start having a bunch of like real positive things that happen in your life but more than not they have challenges so the spouse or the parents are saying like hey I just paid you know x amount of dollars and you’re not fixed what the hell’s wrong and it’s because you were like doing great you know 48 hours ago but since you’ve been home for two days you’re like coming onlu m you know and you didn’t have a a substance to numb it to numb it and like your [ __ ] gone or behaviors behaviors you know codependency yeah and where the alcohol or the sub you know it’s it’s just a symptom like it does you know it’s not the actual drug that’s causing it it’s what’s underneath until you figure that out and address that you’re just going in circles so you know what I used to tell young people before we had resources like Journey inward I used to tell them they would come in and i’ say you know I would suggest you never go back back home because it never works out I don’t know why I can’t put a method into the madness but if you do go back home what you’re going to experience is even if your mom’s at the door hey honey right when you walk in it’s going to feel like you put a weighted blanket on yeah and then you’re going to go around and your experience is going to be weighted and why expose yourself to that and so that’s why I’ve always encouraged young people up until the last 5 years or so is like go find a place get some Independence get your community around you we often refer to it as a family of choice and then you will do your thing but definitely don’t go back into Mom and Dad’s home there’s an opportunity with the resources we have now for repair and reparation with kind of a both and situation with what you all do at Journey inward is you can get in there and prepare the family totally for the person getting out of treatment so they walk in and they feel like they put on a sheet instead of a weighted blanket we can deal with a sheet man I can dance in a sheet I can do all that stuff so yeah it’s kind of like I look at it as lowering the temperature you know people are very anxious like parents are anxious they they want their kid to be fixed I mean you as a CEO of a treatment center you know parents have said 100 times I want my kid fixed I mean that’s exactly what you know parents kind of come to us is like well I want my kids fixed and say okay well let’s let’s start looking at what’s going on and um you know again do it in a way where it’s not the canary and the coal mine and they’re they feel like they’re being called out I just you know I do believe deep down inside everybody wants this and I think no looking at myself even with my own son like the challenges that we were having for for you know went on for a decade you know when he was even younger and and kind of you know over time kind of learning more and more but you know looking back at that experience not really uh you know there’s a lot of image management there’s a lot of these different like I don’t really know how to fix you know and again we we our experience is kind of you know I’ve been working with or trying to help alcoholics or save alcoholics depending on how you look at it at different times uh for four generations right and um I think uh even DA’s alcoholism it’s you know when she drank for seven years after I quit which was that forced me even more into the outside world to help other people because I felt so hopeless in my own situation so I think that happens a lot when there’s addiction codependency you know it’s a it’s it could be a messy process yeah and just to point out clearly and I know the viewers can really relate to this but like hey man we just got each and every one of us get this thing living inside of us it’s called Shame yeah and and we’re all carrying it and it’s really heavy can we talk about it m you know so really love what you guys do I really appreciate you you all showing up today um the opportunity we’ve had to spend with you Peaks recovery and journey inward um has been an awesome experience today before we end you guys want to let the viewers know website how they can get a hold of you the easiest way to kind of do that yeah I would say go to our website it’s uh the journey inward. us so it’s the journey inward. us the journey inward. us beautiful okay my people that’s one thing that I will miss I’ll be like they said. and it’s not working awesome journey inward. us thank you all the journey inward the journey journey inward the journey h e Journey inward let’s go y us the journey inward. us awesome you guys well thank you so much for coming on the show thank you so much appreciate you very much for all of our viewers out there until next time you can find us on all of the places you get your podcast I’m going to list them all right now Instagram Facebook Facebook Spotify Apple music you name it until next time peace

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Episode 119Recovery to Reconstruction: With Reconstruction Unlimited and Dane EnsleyWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/fAXu3lfmcxAListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Chris Burns sits with Dane Ensley and Brandon McArdle from Reconstruction Unlimited, a mental health coaching agency based in Beverly Hills, California. From discussing client care, family coaching, and the importance of curiosity and discipline, this episode flows with quality information and vulnerable shared life experiences. To learn more about Reconstruction Unlimited or Dane and Brandon, check out reconstructionunlimited.com.

Talking Points1. Meet Reconstruction Unlimited (0:23) 2. Introduction to Dane Ensley (1:27) 3. Introduction to Brandon McArdle (3:28) 4. Health and wellness of a team in an organization (6:05) 5. We can do together what we cannot do alone (6:48) 6. Family coaching (7:15) 7. The importance of curiosity (19:05) 8. Timeline with Reconstruction Unlimited (19:22) 9. Importance of discipline (26:38) 10. Check out reconstructionunlimited.com (34:00) 11. Danes final message (34:11) 12. Brandons final message (35:43) Quotes

“Let’s not shy away from the truth, which is this can be a difficult process. Are you ready to do that? Clear is kind in that way, as Brene Brown would say. So I love that there is a piece to returning to that little bit of roughness and toughness. Because you need a little grit to get through this process. Because people are calling you guys or calling Peaks Recovery Centers, it’s about as much courage as anybody could ever muster up on planet Earth”. -Chris Burns, Founder & CEO

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -119- Transcripts[Music] hey everybody and welcome to another amazing episode of Finding Peaks Yours Truly founder and CEO Chris Burns so grateful to have amazing professionals but even better humans with us today danne Ensley with reconstruction unlimited and then we have Brandon McArdle as well with reconstruction unlimited operations director yes sir got that man something that would really really fascinating and intrigue me about what you guys do is more specifically how you do it and why you do it you can go on your website and it’s a very simple website I love it because it’s simple like ours and it really speaks to the viewer um and I think what it says to the viewer is we are what you’ve been looking for this entire time each and every family system that I have the opportunity to work with believes or conceptualizes a process um of treatment and Care structure like you all create in a very very very um granular way for the clients that come into your services and so I want to chat with you guys a little bit about how you’re disrupting the industry and I think a lot of that is probably um within your why and why you got started I know we were chatting a little bit before the show and some things that you’ve seen in the industry that was missing and just want to chat a little bit about it because I’m a big fan of introducing the viewers to people that can potentially walk their loved ones in to Healing sure yeah we run a a mental health coaching agency uh we manage client care so we bring clients in and we design what we call Therapeutic ecosystems for them that means we build out systems to help them recover from whatever they’re struggling with um I was thinking about the idea of disruption and I was thinking I didn’t we didn’t really start this to disrupt we started our organization because we were we were lacking some things as professionals we weren’t getting the support that we needed to make an impact in people’s lives and I think part of our why is is that impact like how much impact can we make how much impact can we generate how much how much can we put into this to create as much radical change as possible um we came up and Brandon can speak for himself but I know I also speak for us when I say we were indoctrinated into helping people in a very particular way and I think that way was suboptimal and we weren’t given the support and strategy and the uh leadership abilities that I think our organization now gives to the people that work for us I’m very adamant about helping clients obviously I built a business a global brand to help clients I am more passionate about helping our coaches and the people that work for us like that’s really my why is I want to Foster and develop unbelievable talent and I want to give these people that work for our organization the most opportunity possible and to to build leaders out of them in the space yeah and I think I can just it’s I of course resoundingly agree with that and I think that for us um having kind of been on the ground so to speak for years um and in these you know to your point of of walking uh folks loved ones to places of healing and the family systems as a whole um I think that we were um put in environments where uh more could have been done and um we had been exposed to and I think this also again not to speak for you but I think for us we had experienced categorical revolutionary change in our lives in our personal lives based on our own therapeutic recovery based experiences and when we went to work so to speak we we didn’t necessarily see that that was offered and it to to your point about um focusing on on our work with our teams we’re a very team focused organization because any client or family system or business system that is plugged in with that and it starts at the top with Dane um the reverberating effects and the work that we do will speak through our our people right and so um there were many years in which there was no one to call there was no additional support for us there was no um and we’re when our phone rang and and still to this day when our phone rings it it can be the worst day of a person’s life right so in these very acute very turbulent very real um scenarios in which the tiniest decision or action can C you know revolutionize a uh radically change a person’s trajectory and and I know that very you know real I’m sure everyone sitting here knows from your own recovery these tiny inextricable events or that person seeing you at a time when you felt that the world that was an impossibility right I think that um we’re constant stly playing to those moments and those moments for us are are vital and and what I know to be true from doing this work for 13 or 14 years and what Daye knows to be true is that if our coaches and our staff and our case managers and interventionists and any of the treatment professionals clinicians that we work with if they’re not in a place to seize that opportunity with these clients and these family systems we’re not doing our job right and we’re we’re missing a lot and um yeah that’s that’s a big deal that just the the the emphasis on the team sure right the health and wellness of the team this is actually something that’s already speaking to me I know get a little off task here but the health and wellness of the team in the way that permeates into client culture I want to see someone sitting in front of me who’s walked that Journey sure right and that’s done it in a real intentional way and can show me spiritually mentally emotionally and yeah physically right right so I think that’s really really cool I just love the name recovery reconstructed right like we’re reconstructing something we thought was good but we’re actually learning has some tremendous gaps in it something that really speaks to me about what you guys do in particular and something that I believe to be true about the recovery process and I don’t know a lot to be true but one thing I always tell clients is I know one thing to be absolutely Paramount sure is we cannot do this alone yes and there’s something that you guys coin on your website of phrase what is that phrase we can do together what we cannot do alone yeah that’s powerful so the way through is actually together and I used to think when I started going to treatment 15 years ago I’d get shushed off to treatment my family would tell me a story like this is a you not a we sure right how do you guys combat that on your side of things how do you integrate the family system in addition to the individual and work with the family and the client it’s funny that you ask that because we’re in the process of deploying what we’re calling family coaches and we have one family coach that we’ve been working with for a time now that does incredibly good work what we noticed was we would spend so much time managing and coaching and intervening with clients and and their family to a degree but then the family would become sort of secondary and they would they don’t know that they ever got lost in the shuffle but there was less emphasis placed on the family and as you know Chris and as your organization knows and as you guys Champion your F like the family system has to be addressed and it’s not just through like a one week and 10 family thing right it the apparatus has to be built out and it has to be elongated and it has to be thorough and so we’re now as much as we can pairing families with their own coach and that coach can work hourly with a family week after week that coach can work daily with a family in person for weeks at a time months at a time even just depends on what we assess needing to be done but I think it’s an interesting place to be because I don’t know that anyone else is doing it which is cool to be able to say I think I don’t I don’t have proof of that but I think that it’s it’s pretty unique yeah and I think when we’re we’re talking about particular family systems um obviously not every every family is this way but there are many families that we work with that are um uh approaching us from a place of affluence right and um you use the Expression which I love of going the distance right and um whether reconstruction is there or not that family system is going to go the distance right this client will be a part of this family system especially if we’re talking about wealth and inheritances and trust funds and family offices and businesses Etc right um and we both know that you know when you’re when and as do you but on the ground in that space intervening in that system and seeing um the way that it operates um it’s it’s so vitally important for us to address that and put start to create a focus for sustainability for that for that future system right and um there have been many times in which look does every family system fully make the evolution to everything and whatever no but obviously that that may not be the case in every circumstance but we are constantly pushing and and that’s what I love about reconstructions what I love about our team is we we never take our kind of foot off the pedal in terms of pushing for that categorical Evolution right where we’re where we Enlightenment so to speak where we’re kind of um uh transcending our our shortcomings and our weakness old patterns these Antiquated old and traumas and and uh in you know inherited generational trauma Etc that and uh pushing for that growth and that healing because as I know I think as everybody sitting here knows when my family starts to take a step or at least a nod towards seeing and hearing me in a way um we’re now shifting a paradigm to create something new and that um that is the juice for us right that is why we’re here and so um yeah that’s it’s it’s really beautiful too I I love what you guys are doing as far as creating separate coaches for the individual and the client now when we started Peaks 10 years ago it was a both and situation so the individual therapist would work with the individual build trust Rapport do the thing then call the family and there was a disconnect there there’s a disconnect for the individual I’m s Sure for the therapist and the um integrous relationship they’re beginning to build with their client but it’s kind of a dual relationship it’s really difficult to do that and I’ve heard often times just with treatment providers in our field not doing a lot of this family work because you need to be resourced to do it you need to move into it with intention because if you don’t it can be very complex and be very draining and so how do you how do you get the families across the bridge if you will how do you get them to deal with some of these we talked about before relapses pitfalls um gaps within the recovery process skinning our knees these these things that are probably pretty synonymous with their covery process how do you get them aligned with that not only for the their loved one but potentially get them engaged with their process I mean it’s got to be a delicate dance it is a delicate dance I think one of the and again back to team focus and back to humans helping humans I think a massive portion of this for us is it’s imperative that we start to build trust on day one right and um if that trust is real and it’s founded in um in not only our lived experience and our personal lives as as people that have gone through our own recovery Journey but in the work as well and then also working with outstanding people um that in my experience surpasses any kind of superficial Judgment of um of whatever that is right and uh again back to the therapeutic ecosystem so often families don’t understand mental health right in many different ways right a part of this trust building process for us is education um and it has to be education and when smart people are educated properly and accordingly to a problem they typically fall in line with amazing Solutions right and typically in our experience that solution involves with the family work um them doing their own work and the goal and and hopefully the what we’re in the education in the trust uh we can activate this internal proactive desire for these families to start seeking this out as opposed to us needing to necessarily push continually for months or whatever the weeks or months right and that work kind of starts to be inborn out of this family and then we start to see the change and it’s one of my favorite life experiences in this field is when there’s any doubt or resistance early on and me personally I’m a middle class are lower middle class white kid from Arizona without a PhD right so to be in certain rooms with certain very successful and credential individuals talking about this and then weeks and months later when the change starts to take place now is it always perfect no but we go through our trials and tribulations and we put the work in and we start to create that beauty and when they really start to see this change that recognition in Us in in our teams of wow right and that and we start to see that and that for me that Brilliance and that kind of um these inflection points and that light turning on is really like my it’s my favorite what we do what we do is is it requires a tremendous amount of resource and we’re always looking at ways of scaling that and and like we’re in a big push right now to figure out how do we get more people to access this is is I think it’s important y uh what I believe in is if you’re paying a significant amount of money for any type of treatment especially really expensive treatment you should be getting the best and the best should be telling you no and that’s important because we work with families and we work with individuals we work with businesses where if I was that person signing that check I would want that person to say no that’s not what you’re doing no go that way if you’re spending a significant amount of money just to be yes I think it’s not the right fit you know what I mean we need more people to say no you’re wrong it’s okay yeah you’re still loved and I’m not shaming you for being wrong it’s just that you’re spending time and money on this and we’re spending time and energy and I’m not going to waste your time or money or my energy on giving you anything accept the truth that’s a big deal being boundar yeah right and then let exposing those edges early and often with the family systems it actually reminded me of an early part of my career I’m like 24 years old I’m two years into my career I’m probably you know second year in college two years sober and I go in and they they promote me into a case management position and they give me my list you know it’s $30,000 a month to be people paying $1 th000 a day sure and I’m about to call Dr Joe F shoot man what am I going to do Dr Joe but actually I have something that Dr Joe wants right um and that is family’s craving which is recovery they just don’t know it and when you introduce them to the set of keys that they have in their hand to access the building of change hope and healing those family systems are like they’re on board and they’re actually just huge Advocates they like let’s go let’s keep going in this direction yes because when smart people get great information they make changes in their lives yes they do that’s a beautiful thing I was actually reminded of that I’m like how am I going to call this guy it’s like actually he knows a lot about this thing sure but I know quite a bit about this thing right and that’s why he signed up with us so I love that I’m going to remember that too from a leadership perspective and Family’s systems perspective you know sometimes it’s okay to say know I think too I think that’s beautiful and I think absolutely agree I think too as well just as any specific individual that we’re working with right and and I know that you know this and the work that you do um it’s Central to the work that you do uh so often uh mental health dysfunction whatever shape and form that’s taken can feel like drowning right it can feel like we’re suffocating and um we can’t breathe and then so often at least in my experience these these radical um moments in my life uh a person saw me and told me to stand up and then I was no longer drowning right and I could break from myself and my subjective experience and how exist in presence right and just as every individual that we work with has to do that this family system also has to do that right and it again it may may be unpleasant for a very short period of time but that Concept in metaph metaphorically speaking of standing up and existing in presence and existing Beyond ourselves and our patterns and our systems and our uh traumas and whatever and seeing each other in a new way um it has to happen for these recovery processes to to take place and I don’t think that there’s enough emphasis and work and time and energy and resources Etc focused on that exchange process because for me um as I started to see different members of my family at different stages of my life start to have that experience with me when on their own and start to see them involved it allowed me to reorient with them in a different way and potentially expand my relationship with them in certain ways and I think that that’s necessary for the recovery process and we’re often working in these um acute bird s right and and and really pivotal times and so um yeah we’re just trying to extract as much as we can within a given time frame and again create this sustainable Way Forward based off of this fundamental learning and courage in truth yeah that’s beautiful I I really love what you guys do you guys kind of a tagline for your company should be like we just get curious we just get super curious you know and I think curiosity what what we’re missing in this field right now can we get more Curious can you ask a better question we were just sitting with pemma white earlier the way that she’s able to frame things for individuals for them to see the light instead of the darkness is really really beautiful thing one of my questions and for the viewers I think it’s really important is how long can you guys work with people indefinitely okay you know we can work with people situationally right where we’re brought on our team is brought on for a minimal amount of time you know could be days weeks months we we have a couple clients that we’ve worked with for seven or eight years okay um you know back when it was just Brandon and I coaching and there was no real organization or there was no organization to it it was we didn’t have a a framework in which we worked we didn’t have an actual business we founded I founded reconstruction in 2018 before that it was just a bit of a renegade operation um we can work with people we try not to we we develop Pathways for people but we we try not to put a box around it right we put scaffolding we’re careful about what we do and how we do it and I really like open the open-endedness of it we’re as you know recovery is a lifelong thing recovery from anything and it changes and it Transitions and it morphs and you know I I’ve got I still work with one client myself who we not working on almost anything um obvious viously recovery related we’re working on how do I treat my employees you know he runs a hedge fund in New York how do I operate with people that are my equals or or senior to me or and and what’s that experience like for him and and how does he view himself in those situ how does he treat his family and how does he treat and that’s really rewarding work and you know I don’t get necessarily into the minutia of the business dealings I just I I know what leadership is and I know what recovery is and so being able to blend those things and help a couple people that I still work with privately on those particular issues is a great reward for me because I I got to see them five six seven years ago where it was a very different scene that’s the thing and you know them you know their thing but you also know them and you know the Genesis of this of this I don’t want to say new person but this person and how they have we we crawled down in the well with you at rock bottom right and we walked out with you and now we’re here and there’s certain people that we work with that can walk on and exist in this whatever systems that we’ve created and they can and and go on and carry on and that’s beautiful and fantastic um there’s other people for me personally if I could have had the opportunity to have had even a case manager that has known me since day one and has that I don’t need to talk to every day but has know knows me it doesn’t matter what superficial external situation I’m in that person knows me very intimately they could probably predict some of the places that my ego or my whatever may take me right and not only for the accountability but just that again um that Bond because um you know we send a coach to work with a person that’s at rock bottom and they work let’s say they work for six months you’d be hardpressed to tell me other than a husband or a child or a wife or a mother or whatever that coach and that client are have a bond that is closer and more right more real than virtually any other human being yeah so um why wouldn’t I would want that you know what I mean for for um again for an indefinite it doesn’t need to be in a box it can just be what it is a client of mine from 8 10 years ago texted me the other day and said I need to go back to treatment and I said okay great so we figured it out and he said great I’m I’m just waiting for the call back from this particular treatment center on the East Coast I’m sitting in an IHOP and I said oh you’re so you’re having chocolate chip pancakes with a smiley face of whipped cream on top and he sent me a picture he said how do you know I said I know everything about you I know how many strokes it takes for you to brush your teeth I know how many steps it takes you to go buy drugs I know you know like all these things that if you’re if you live with a person and we’re talking about real change here like you’re really in it with that person it’s unbelievable what you learn about them and it’s unbelievable the levers that you can pull and the the positive manipulations you can create in that person’s life and the strategy you can Implement to create very real change and the only reason that young man is going back to treatment is because we planted some seeds right you know it’s not it wasn’t n even all my doing it just at some point we got the opportunity to work with him and I truly believe this particular individual would have probably killed himself if we didn’t have the apparatus we had around him true that’s huge yeah it’s it’s an awesome experience those relationships man now you’re speaking to my heart like I was a big 12 stepper early on I mean just the sponsor sponsy relation i’ s with these guys for three months we’d work steps and we’d have a intimate relationship now you talk about walking with someone 6 months a year 5 years seven years you guys literally get down sit next to that’s what I’m envisioning it’s like you’re in their home sitting next to them brushing their teeth lit that man how you doing today we also then work with their cousins and we work with their uncle and we work with her auntie and you know there’s family systems we work with where we’ve worked with five six seven family members on various degrees of you know on various different issues right there could be the cousin who has incredibly disruptive mental illness and there could be the cousin or the family member that just needs a little push in the right direction right and that’s I mean you’re talking about real systemic change systems wide change you you get in and manipulate a family system and it’s amazing if we can create a more conscious self-aware individuals and more conscious as a as a as a result more conscious self-aware family system um from a dollars and cents perspective what do what are we talking about right we’re talking about investment upfront and potentially throughout ultimately potentially to save fortunes for future generations of family right so um if it’s a dollars and cents issue and we know that whatever um you know again there’s just it from the from the from the successes that we’ve had it’s just it’s it’s unbelievable to watch and I I I agree with that investment and it does feel like a heavy lift on the front end sure but it’s often times like the story of you know someone coming to me yesterday and saying you wake up at 5:30 right and like yeah after 8 hours sleep for sure and what do you do I was like I get up I drink lemon water I meditate and I go run like that seemed hard and I’m like yeah it it is difficult to form that routine but it’s a much better investment now than getting cut in half at 60 and they’re telling me hey we need to put this sin in your heart to treat a symptom of a greater problem that we’re not going to help you with right right and so the same kind of thing in the investment with what you guys do like let’s make this investment on the front end so we can begin to heal right on a very foundational level yes we’re not just talking about and I love what you guys said here we’re not just talking about heroin addiction and mental health issues and we’re talking about quality of life improvements potentially and that yes which is really really cool discipline like having the discipline on the front end affords you all sorts of freedoms as thing and it could be the morning routine it could be your recovery effort I mean I am a freak about discipline like it’s I just I love it like I wake up like you wake up at the same time do the same thing and and and people say man that must be really or you be a dinner party oh man that’s oh relax freak you wake up at 5:30 you know and and and they say things like that must be hard or I could never or oh and the point of it is to be hard like recovery is hard and good it should be hard you know life is hard life is hard pain there’s pain and misery suffering and that’s part of the deal yes and to transcend that and to find ways of like accepting that and moving through it and having a relationship with pain and suffering that’s prosperous and gentle even where you you you know it’s happening and you’re feeling it but you’re not always responding in this negative way it’s a beautiful thing and it takes a lot of time and practice to your point when we start to choose when we get to a place hopefully and elevated free place where I can now choose the pain that I subject myself to there’s probably a really nice reward on the other side of whatever pain I’m putting myself through right whereas before there was no rewards right and again back to this kind of math right any intelligent person can see that right if we’ve experienced one second of freedom and presence we can understand if you’ve ever sat in a cold plunge for 4 minutes you know how amazing it is on the other side of that cold plunge right right does it suck for a minute while your body is acclimating for sure 10 12 years into cold plunge is it still brutal the first minute right but then it’s freedom in a new way and so um holding space for people to fight that to resist that to begrudgingly accept that to accept that compassionately and to start to love themselves and others through that process you know that’s that’s that’s different yeah I really love that methodology too because it leans into kind of where I got my start in recovery in a much less trauma-informed way right but it as we had talked about a little bit a lot of the treatment stuff going on 15 20 years ago was like sit down shut up do your thing well [ ] this is hard yes well life’s hard right and there’s a way you guys are doing it in this much more trauma-informed and empathetic way but really let’s not shy away from the truth right which is like this can be difficult process yeah you ready to do that and we clear as kind in that as Bern Brown would say and so I love that I there’s a piece to getting back to that little bit of uh rough and toughness to because you have to have a little bit of grit to walk through this process and people that are calling you guys or calling Peaks recovery it’s about as much courage as anybody could ever muster on planet Earth to pick up that phone so I know they’re ready for that process we just have to introduce it in an honest way sure and I found myself actually shying away from a little bit of that toughness you guys have brought it up today and in a really cool way you can still integrate that you could do both it not like a bunch of pirates and Vikings like a this is hard you’re going to mess up and fail it’s it’s just that it’s the TR it’s the truth like there’s a toughness about it and having we talk about resilience and the wellness industry talks about resilience and the recovery industry talks about resilience and the mental health Industries and the psychiatric Industries right and to experience that you need to experience it like you need to feel what it’s like to be uncomfortable and walk through it and you need to hopefully like Brandon said um put yourself have the luxury almost of putting yourself into these uncomfortable situations to see how you perform or see what experience or knowledge comes through that and it’s yeah little bit of a little bit of toughness is a nice thing you know while still being you can do both you can be gentle and tough I think and and it takes practice but you can do both and I think what you’re speaking to absolutely and I think what you’re speaking to is in my early days it was shut up and sit down we’re tough you’re not tough yet yeah after you stay around here for a very extended period of time and do everything that we tell you to do without any ounce of a fight you can then call yourself tough I the first person that resonated with me was like oh miss all of that you’re tough right now let’s go yeah back to this drowning you stand up right like I’ll I’ll drown with you stand up let’s go right and it’s the empowerment of that is so important and back to our personal experiences we both had that we both were so fortunate and grateful enough to have a person or a couple people or a group tell us hey it’s you you the power is in you right you just can’t see it or you’re not connecting to it or people have told you your whole life that you don’t have any but you do and I’ll be the one to tell you that cuz people told me that I didn’t either but I do now right and that was a decision a courageous truth-based decision that I had to confront and that was scared the [ ] out of me but when I made that decision it’s here and it’s and it’s real now and so a lot of our work is also founded in that when we’re talking about this brand of toughness or discipline it’s because that’s a Nate within the people that we’re working with right we just want to clear the wreckage out of the way enough so that they can start to experience that and then harness it right yeah and then take it to others and do that for them yeah that’s a that’s a really cool and just the intricacies of how you meet with individuals and begin to explore who and what they are and I said it multiple times just being very very curious is something that I’m really attracted to and that the viewers should be looking for when they’re out searching for places for their loved ones ask good questions ask a million questions if you ever get on the phone and they’re like you shouldn’t ask questions because I’m an expert hang up the phone you know lit it’s it’s really really cool to see opport OPP unities like this and the viewers I have never heard of a company like your guys thank you and I’ve been doing this 15 years we feel the same yeah thank you so much is there anything as far as the viewers here Colorado Nationwide I think they need to know that you’re International but website where’s your offices how do they get a hold of you got a really long URL called reconstruction unlimited.com um we’re on Instagram and all that stuff uh I think what I always tell everyone is just pick up the phone and call and that’s easier said than done but I really mean it if you pick up regardless of what kind of resource you have or what you think you want to do or you don’t want to do we again we work in an incredibly customizable way and our method is based on the intricacies of that complexity and so just chat to us like we don’t even bill for all that it’s you know we interface with our clients from day one and we don’t charge anyone a dime until we have a plan to execute oh wow we do our all of our assessments for free we do a lot of conversations for free we’ll meet with people in person for free because what we do is so comprehensive that I I just believe it’s my belief that stuff should be on the house and you shouldn’t really pay for anything until you have an actionable plan now listen that plan can change and it can morph into different things and you know sometimes with especially with crisis situation which we deal with on a on a pretty regular basis first contact with that client with that patient with that person that human M things change right and you have to Pivot and you have to be adaptable but I believe giving someone a plan or some resource is the least we can do before sending them a bill so for anyone listening just pick up go to our website there’s a number there call that number you talk to any one of us and we’ll we’ll try to find you help absolutely I think too the last thing I’ll say about that is um there are many when we’re assessing clientele and family systems Etc businesses there are many people that um I I call it like the rehab industrial complex right there’s like this machine of recovery uh you know for mental health and um that can be such a daunting landscape to even try and understand and communicate with we’re probably also communicating with this this complex at times of Crisis and need and vulnerability um it can also be very expensive and so there are many people that um and I think again it speaks to us and the work that we’ve done in our in our over these years where there are many people that don’t necessarily need the full Gauntlet of seven months in it right we can tackle this in a much more efficient and uh a quick way through kind of other interventions that don’t require a full overhaul of everything and upending a person’s entire life and so uh just as much as we’re you know uh working efficient we want to work uh with kind of best practices in mind in that way as well and um keep whatever whatever program and systems we’re creating um efficient in the true sense of what that word is right um and so that’s what I’d say about that really appreciate you guys coming on today it’s been an absolute pleasure having you guys on the show reconstruction unlimited F and you know what I I would encourage people to their point um to give them a shout free consultation you know one of the worst things that ever happened to me and people that I care about the most is starting to call 800 numbers and treatment programs and before you know it you’re on a plane to Nowhere yes and I can speak about that with a whole heart I’ve had family members that are impacted I’ve been impacted so I would encourage everybody to call a valuable resource like reconstruction unlimited thank you guys so much for you guys all right guys please check us out on where you where you get your podcast Instagram Facebook you name it iTunes uh Spotify we got it going on until next time [Music] peace

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Episode 118Unlocking the Power to Thrive Through BiofeedbackWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/j_CEq-EG9eQListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Chris Burns welcomes back Dr. Jenn Holcomb from Integrative Mind and Body Wellness LLC, as well as her husband and partner Dustin Holcomb, to delve further into the cutting-edge modalities of Biofeedback and Neurofeedback. From deconstructing the physiological responses of the nervous system to speaking about regulating the heart rate and breath, this episode is full of insightful information and personal testimonies of efficacy. For more information on Integrative Mind and Body LLC, check out mindbodywellnessllc.com. For information on Positive Outcomes LLC, check out positiveoutcomesllc.com.

Talking Points1. Introduction to the Holcombs (0:20) 2. Why the breath becomes compromised (2:00) 3. Response to nervous system threats (3:45) 4. Pushing through physiological responses without regulating (7:15) 5. Similarities between Somatic work and neurofeedback and biofeedback (14:45) 6. Impact of lack of good breath (16:40) 7. Breaking generational stigmas (20:37) 8. How biofeedback creates room for optimal performance (23:40) 9. Looking into experiencing and managing stress (27:05) 10. Experience at Integrative Mind and Body Wellness (36:10) 11. Positive Outcomes LLC (39:23) 12. Integrative Mind and Body LLC (41:06) Quotes

“Your amygdala didn’t evolve from back in the caveman days. That served a function when the threat was the saber-tooth tiger coming at you… Well now our threats are less obvious, it’s a thought. Sometimes we are not even aware of it; it’s subconscious”.-Dr. Jenn Holcomb, Integrative Mind and Body Wellness

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -118- Transcripts[Music] hey everybody and welcome to another amazing episode of Finding Peaks your host Chris Burns president founder CEO here at Peaks recovery centers so grateful to be bringing back on Dr Jennifer hul thank you for being back on the show Dr Jen absolutely it’s good to be here yeah it’s great to have you and then we have her husband in counterpart Dustin welcome thank you for joining us Dustin glad to be here absolutely and Dustin is uh Masters in Education board certified neuro feedback as well as biof feedback um so grateful to have him on the show I’ve been spending some time with Dustin in the office breathing as well as with Dr Jen so we’re really really excited to have her back on the show and those of you that forgot U Dr Jen is a PhD in Psycho physiology a licensed marriage and family therapist EMDR certified board certified Behavior Analysis as well as Dustin and certified both in BIO and neuro feedback as well as hrb yeah let’s go yeah there a big Hot Topic right now is HRV and so I’ve been exploring that with them and what that means and just really really excited to get this show going today and um I want to talk about if you’re open to it why does the breath get so compromised over time I noticed that even being in your office two weeks ago when I started to do some low and slow breathing was actually really difficult to start my stomach would tremble I wouldn’t get a nice long breath it would be um disconnected throughout the breath and I know we talked yesterday a little bit about fight ORF flight and some of the stuff that happens there but I guess my question to you guys is what is it is it a multitude of things um is there something that you guys are identifying throughout the developmental process that gets in the way of that low and slow good rhythmic breath so with good respiration we um we have good oxygen intake and we are blowing out enough CO2 which is important I think a common misnomer is that the CO2 is bad and we just got to get rid of it and we got to blow it out well truth is we got to maintain about 87% to really keep good respiratory chemistry in place and so with good CO2 levels uh in our system and good pH what’s happening there is our body is under understanding our current metabolic rate and all systems are a go the problem is is when we lose sight of good breath or good respiration to match the current environment so if we’re sitting there at a desk and we think about something that stresses us out what’ll happen is we could start to increase breath rate because again I think over many many Millennia we’ve been doing this we we sense stress we’ve got to get more oxygen in and we’ve got to prepare for fight right right the case is is when we don’t really when that when that intent is misguided so when we’re sitting at the desk we don’t really have to plan for fighting um we just think we do and so this response can become trained over time and we we will have lower levels of CO2 in our bloodstream because we’re blowing out too much CO2 and what that in turn is says Hey the brain tells the body slow down the the uh the overall metabolic rate because of metabolic needs and what will happen is we have less CO2 it’ll slow down oxygen delivery to our brain up to 60% less oxygen going to the brain when we get stressed out um so it actually slows it down and we just overall lose sight and I tell people all the time your amydala didn’t evolve from back in the caveman days right so that served a function when the threat was like the cybertooth tiger coming at you right it’s like you got to get ready to roll because you had to well now our threats are less obvious sometimes so it’s a thought so we’re not even aware of it a lot of times it’s subconscious you know working on an email and you’re putting something in an email and that causes you to remember something else and now you’re holding your breath not because of the email you’re typing but because of what you were thinking about while you were typing it right and it’s that subconscious process but regardless your physiology is still responding like where’s the tiger where is it we got to get ready to go right so then that’s starts to impact the breathing in that whole process that makes a lot of sense it really well stated there and so folks that struggle with from a developmental perspective this intense trauma or physical abuse or emotional abuse that can represent sometimes kind of that saber absolutely right yeah yeah and so then you know in individuals in those environments in those situations their whole life is about looking to see when the next big thing is going to happen hypervigilance yeah that hypervigilance kicks in and then you live like that and so I know when I was first learning how to breathe and incorporating this in my life I like never breathe I was always in this state and so having to teach myself to breathe when I drive breathing and driving is not as common sense as people would think and I’m talking about the diaphragmatic breathing cooking and breathing reading and breathing I work with a lot of client students at the universities right they were coming in for a lot of anxiety and stress around classes and all that stuff where it was keep your hand on your belly while you’re breathing while you’re reading and they would come in laughing so hard going I can’t breathe and read man it’s like this wait a minute here I thought we were always doing this and so you do it but once you get it it’s so lovely you can actually sense your physiology goes back into a state of recovery and so that’s really what we’re looking looking at is we are supposed to respond with stress but we’re supposed to recover yeah and we don’t often times recover and that’s when our physiology gets impacted right I mean we’re getting was it 60% less oxygen to the brain that has a it has an effect over time right it is a huge impact and and I I had just thought you know I’d walked into rooms with a bunch of a type males as a young man and everybody’s hair on their neck stood up and they had this physiological response but what I learned over time was actually that I I suffered a tremendous amount of use at the hands of an A type male who kind of was my you know was my father and and kind of um was my hero at the same time and so I would go into locker rooms as a I remember seventh grade is like one of the first grades you change out you know you get a locker you put your shorts on and I remember doing it and I remember thinking to myself I am so out of body right now like I just don’t feel okay but I’m just pushing through pushing through and so maybe you guys can speak to a little bit on what are some of the some of the detrimental outcomes by kind of pushing through this the sematic experience or these physiological responses without regulating you think the long-term effects of that are just that your body gets locked up and then it gets used to being locked up and then you just go through life locked up but not realizing that you’ve been locked up right and so I think that’s part of what happens right is just over time this is just how I get through it and so if you were say someone took you afterwards and said hey buddy how was that and you were able to like kind of drop and say I hated this I don’t like this experience it’s made me uncomfortable and someone was to validate that and say okay well you’re safe now let’s figure out how we can make an adjustment for you in that setting and you were to problem solve and work all the way through it the next time you walked in you would have your plan and you would be able to deal with it differently and be able to get yourself regulated and that’s the part that I think often gets missed especially when we’re young yeah it’s something that you guys really speak to really well is like there’s this stripping of a layer and something that really speaks to me is I was sitting with Dustin yesterday and he’s like you know probably four or five sessions you’ll be good M I’m like you guys are actually doing this to help people get get better you know yeah um did you have something on that topic it’s yeah so initially it was thought that um the heart was basic uh controlled by the sympathetic side of the autonomic nervous system and in truth it’s parasympathetically driven so when we uh get excited or stressed out or anxious about anything that’s not increased sympathetic activity it’s actually parasympathetic withdrawal so if we think about this parasympathetic nervous system side of the nervous system which comes through the Vegas nerve think about it as a breaking system and so it breaks on our heart and slows our heart down and as that breaks removed it allows our heart to speed up so it has very little to do with the sympathetic side of things um and so strengthening that parasympathetic side what we have is improved flexibility and resilience across stressful situations uh and it’s really the rebound effect too whether it’s proactively through low and slow breathing which you know focuses on good use of the diaphragm which is very underutilized for so many of us we’re chest breathers we’re upper thoracic breathers and it’s just not how it’s supposed to go so we train this diaphragm to really move in and out pulling good amounts of air in and our parasympathetic system strengthens during low and slow breathing and then it can better calm us down when we acknowledge hey there’s a stressful situation I’ve just gone through but it’s able to put on that break in a stronger way bring that heart rate down and we can go on about daily life so it’s really a tool for adaptability across situations and it and it primarily is achieved through something called respiratory sinus arhythmia uh which is if we think about our heart rate it’s continually fluctuating a heart that just beats beats beats go see your doctor because that’s not good it doesn’t beat steady it always constantly increases or decreases and it’s fairly sporadic as I’m talking right now if I were hooked up to a blood volume pulse monitor or EKG you would see that it’s sporadically beating and it should it’s chaotic it’s a chaotic process but the way we strengthen that vagal tone is through a process called low and slow breathing where we want the increase in heart rate and the decrease in heart rate to match with our respiration so those two go hand in hand and as they increase and decrease so the heart speeds up and the Heart slows down what we’re doing is we’re strengthening that parasympathetic reflex which allows us to adapt to situations more effectively yeah when you said I mean beautifully stated when you said resilience and adaptability you know basically we’re talking yesterday if there’s two words the reason we’re here right is resilience and adaptability when I think about mental health and I think about substance youth which is mental health and the journey of which is the recovery process process um that is everything absolutely with respect to moving into recovery anchoring into a foundation and if I’m going to really big terms yeah if I’m going to Anchor into a foundation resilience and adaptability really speaks to me and to your point with the the feedback it’s it’s very closely aligned with my experience with sematic work it’s almost like you can come into a very treacherous situation call it a stress test or a client experience we can visit this see from the neurobo and HRV feedback on the screen how the physiology is being impacted and then we can we can do the work that we need to as you walk through it and then do you all revisit the scene too because in sematic work it kind of goes like hey last week we were talking about you were and this is just an example last week you were seven years old and you were waiting at the back door for your mom to come home she never came home um last week we process that in I’m going to bring that back up I want you to tell me what your body does in that regard right and generally speaking if I’ve already gone through it and I’ve done the SC I’m pretty well regulated by so do you guys do that with the bio feedback and the neuro feedback as well it’s almost kind of like revisiting the crash site and seeing the improvement from the screen as well yeah especially when I use it in conjunction with EMDR okay so for everyone that I work with with the trauma that’s part of what we’re doing is when we when we finish going through our EMDR session and we kind of contain and then we go into um kind of the calm safe space right that’s when we start pulling in the breath and client responding of uh usually I don’t have people hooked up at the same time but they’ve done enough of the HRV that they noodle you know I mean that’s what I call it it’s not a clinical term but yeah I love that term they they get that sense and so my clients will tell me I’m I’ve noodled right and then after we get done and we installed the new positive belief about themselves and whatever we’re dealing with right how does your body feel now when you go back in there that’s what I have them checking so it goes back into that full body scan are you noticing anything within your body that’s telling you you’re not fully you know fully connected to that new positive belief and and that strength that you were feeling right and then how does your breath feel as you go back and you think about whatever it is your mom leaving you on that porch and that’s how I kind of go back and and do it that that’s beautiful is it is it stripping the nervous system or is it further ing neurop Pathways or is it doing any of that if we think about the the the Vegas nerve it’s it’s very interesting in that you know the Mind Body Connection is really emphasized in this process in that 80% of the uh nerve fibers in the parasympathetic uh branch of the autonomic nervous system are are afferent or to the brain uh and only 20% coming to the heart so really the you know the heart’s talking to the brain or I’m sorry the brain’s talking to the heart more than the heart’s talking to the brain and um so in in in training that you’re strengthening that communication certainly yeah that makes a lot of sense and it’s it’s interesting how I you know sematic work in Fe neuro biop feedback it’s very similar very similar uh different but have a lot of similarities a lot of sim yeah because a lot of it with sematic work right I’m familiar with it because of Ariel shorts up and Boulder right she does a lot of the sematic work too but a lot of the tra tra gets stuck in the body MH and that’s that’s really when you start as you’re even going through the EMDR process and doing the trauma work I have some clients where the trauma is just kind of stuck and so we have to spend a little bit of time working with the body work and the way that I do that is with the biof feedback more specifically than with the neural feedback yeah that’s really cool yeah so closely aligned really speaks to my heart because had a tremendous amount of experience of like and it really is it really feels like a lot of times I know I say stripping a layer but it’s like one of the best full body tissue massages you’ll ever get kind of this neuro feedback potentially some sematic work it just it’s like this cleansing breath for your nervous system that I never thought was possible I just thought you know as we said on the last show I really believe that people in recovery you know what are they 51 time more likely to die from all cause death mortality right you know I just thought that we succumb because we had this special allergy called addiction to this like six out of 10 quality alive right and I was on my Instagram this morning saying my beautiful mental health message and I’m like I we’re moving into healing that’s where this is going that’s where Peaks recovery is this is where your all’s brand is is moving people into this quality of life that they didn’t think was possible is there any research and I know I kind of get into this sometimes but we’ve talked about um different ways to conceptualize research and what’s beneficial for humans in general but is there any research that points to um the repercussions or the consequences from lack of good breath or lack of breathing or what is the impact over time for somebody who um is not able to practice low and slow breathing and has a traumatic history or engages with stress certainly yeah I mean one one good example of that is in the area of hypertension and so if we go back to low and slow breathing which involves breathing at a unique frequency that’s based on an individual’s makeup and we can talk about that as well but within hypertension um really what it reflects is a reduced strength of something referred to as a barrow reflex there receptors primarily located in the kateed artery and the um uh what’s the big one the aorta aorta thank you aortic Arch yeah and so these these stretch receptors respond uh continually to this increase in heart rate and decrease inas in heart rate and they uh encourage Vaso dilation vasel constriction to regulate blood blood pressure and so when these lose their strength or their uh their effect their reflexive effect then that leads to hypertension we’ve lost control and those you know hypertension sort of resets the bar in your body so that your body starts to maintain that disregulation and so there is very very good research uh showing that through low and slow breathing and and and increasing HRV we can uh rest strengthen that reflexive system and reset it back to where it needs to be to keep the body in a better state of homeostasis so you actually create a we were talking about this yesterday you create a new homeostasis if you don’t watch out just kind of your Baseline your body activates at that level yep that’s and HRV in general as one modality for biof feedback training um you know you mentioned all cause mortality it is very well known and well established in the research how important uh you know increased HRV is in adaptability um and being uh uh resilient across environments and we know that we can absolutely train and increase that HRV along with strengthening that other reflex and the borrow reflex uh through that low and slow breathing and so how that’s done is is it’s got to be based on an individual’s resonance frequency so if we think about resonance in this way the best example that I’ve come across is a child you know pushing a child on a swing and it’s it’s hard you get them going and you man you really and it’s pushing back on you and man you hit that sweet spot and that kid’s just flying and you’re just you know you’re checking your phone right you’re just barely tapping it so you found that individual resonance frequency right very low effort and good magnitude good power occurring so the same thing happening with low and slow breathing and both refle ref Le systems the vagal reflex the parasympathetic reflex and the borrow reflex and so what we’re doing is strengthening those systems so that across daily life daily stressors our system can readjust so we can we can strengthen that so that we’re better dealing with stressful situations but we also use it as a reactive strategy hey I’m getting a little out of hand here I can feel it my heart we all know when our heart rate starts to beat and we’re getting stressed out um and then we can engage in a little bit of low and slow breathing and re-regulate that process so I love that too because it’s I guess switching over to Dr Jen what do you see when you have somebody come into your office potentially like uh with an experience like mine where you come in and I have hypertension my dad has hypertension my grandfather had hypertension my grandfather’s grandfather had hypertension as long back as we can measure hypertension we’ve had hypertension right and so that’s what I was met with in the medical model I know we’ve touched on it before but how do you work with individuals that are kind of rooted in this belief that they have what their parents have and there’s no way through that well I think it’s you know one looking at it is there anything medically causing that hypertension that is like there’s a medical reason for it right and if there isn’t right then we just I tell them you know you want to be open to changing things usually most people want to come in and do things differently than their parents yeah right and so we work through some of those things but we’re talking about breaking that cycle if there is a psychological reason for the hypertension and usually the breath is always involved in it right and so when we start working with clients I don’t Focus so much on the hypertension that’s usually like a secondary gain from therapy but we really work on decreasing stress because they usually come in because they’re saying I’m stressed out my anxiety is through the roof I’m not sleeping I’ve got headaches I’ve got back pain I don’t feel well my wife tells me I’m drinking too much right all of these things are happening and I have all these medical problems I’ve got IBS I’ve got hypertension I’ve got you know I’m pre-diabetic we’ve got we’re moving so the whole physiology is just regulated right and so we I work specifically on saying let’s get you feeling better first let’s balance the physiology with the mental health because it’s a both and right if I am exhausted and I don’t eat well and my body is just fatigued I’m not going to feel good MH so we work on addressing those things and then we also kind of work on now we’re going to pull in the breath and we’re going to learn how do I regulate when I get into these states first even recognizing what I’m feeling right you know how much how much you know education did we get on identifying our feelings beyond the like happy sad right and usually people can say well this makes me happy this makes me sad this makes me angry but how do you know that’s how you feel what is your body t tell you about those feelings and also joy and happiness and peace and are those comfortable feelings for some people happiness is horribly uncomfortable calm oh dear God right no no that’s right before everything falls apart right yeah and so we work on understanding our feelings and then we pull in the breath and we allow the breath to start to ground us and help regulate and once people get that sense like the noodling that I talk about which is just this coherence it’s not peace it’s just here I am and it’s calming to everyone even though maybe they wouldn’t call it that right yeah yeah I love that it’s it’s like you you your all’s business name could be moving from surviving to thriving right LLC I like it I like it know it’s a really beautiful thing and how does bio feedback create room for Optimal Performance that was a catchy term that I really kind of latched on to um so now we’re talking about mental health moving through recovery but now we’re moving into this thing of like optimally performing from a mental health perspective a physiological perspective and so maybe you can chat with me a little bit about that yeah sure there’s been um you know 30 plus years of of biof feedback uh neuro feedback practitioners specializing in an area of biof feedback uh referred to as as Optimal Performance and then uh on the sports side they refer to it as Peak Performance so okay they kind of go hand inand but it’s really anybody that wants to perform better at work uh in in their in their Sports uh and really across daily living and so there I I think that really highlights there doesn’t need to be a definable diagn diagnostic problem right if if you want to attempt to better understand and regulate and self-manage your physiology and Your Mind Body Connection then that can be done through many modalities um we have um we have temperature biof feedback we have skin conductance which me measures the sweat response we have respiration clearly we have heart rate and um and through those or you know any combination of those we can learn a little bit uh a little bit about how individuals respond under stress conditions and then we can work with those modalities to try and decrease arousal uh across situations which is going to lead again back to slower heart rate better affirmation of current metabolic rates that means the Mind Body are going to be communicating well together we’re not going to be over breathing we’re not going to be under breathing our respiratory chemistry is going to be in place so many many athletes uh around the world um and and a lot of teams I know the the podcast that I referred to you they talk about the a big soccer team and and and and I think his name is Messi probably everybody knows so he spends 5 minutes in the morning just understanding his HRV as a metric to uh inform fatigue uh because we have reduced HRV when we’re tired and that’s why we need to be cautious not to overanalyze daily fluctuation in our HRV which I know we’re all myself included uh can overthink at times um it’s really what we’re looking at doing is improving these metrics over time so for instance good loans slow breathing give it a couple months 10 10 minutes a day I’d like to see 20 minutes a day but 10 minutes a day seems to be a real musthave and you’re going to start to feel the benefits so you’ve just got better cognition better blood flow um parasympathetically you know we’re even looking at there’s this layer you know that that that the parasympathetic nervous system can create to inhibit muscle pain and so there’s just a lot of different areas to go which leads me to semg too so muscle bio feedback we can also do that so if we’re sitting in chairs we can align one two maybe up to four sensors uh which are going to meas measure uh muscle electrical activity and we can train that over roused muscle area down so that’s interesting so it could be somebody like a sports injury where you get a new hip and you’re overcompensating on this side it’s hard not to right and you can cool that side down that’s that’s really interesting something that was really spoke to me yesterday yesterday when I was in the office talk about um finding or capitalizing on ways that people manage stress and how that shows up in the nervous system I think we saw um one of the things that was really responsive to me was the skin conducted yeah and so Dustin said hey for two minutes I just want you to tell me about a stressful situation you know tell me as much as you want don’t overshare just tell me about a stressful situation and I start talking about um the last couple months and what we’ve walked through and things of that nature and right away I start feeling my hands get clammy um you know feel my heart rate go up I feel my armpits begin to sweat and then we learned something about that individual and how they experience stress and then correct me from wrong but we can go into that area and begin to kind of make this magic happen repair right for that a better term right absolutely yeah bring more physiological regulation so that one part isn’t overworking as opposed to another right we’re really working on in bof feedback trying to enhance our understanding our recognition of our physiological responding because I think we’ve already talked about the connectivity I mean it’s irrefutable right they are absolutely connected and so responses in the physiology affect the brain and vice versa and there’s all these different systems and Loops that occur so for for you uh it might be beneficial to have you start to learn to exert control over your arousal level as evidenced by that skin conductance response and that’s really going to tell us uh a story about your ability a to regulate it and then start to maybe discuss that stressful situation again and see what happens and how quickly can you recover from those things because we’re not going to be able to avoid stress how quick can we or are we able to recover from stress and that’s not just hey man get out of your head right no get back in your head and really think about your physiology and engage in strategies such as low and slow breathing um to re-regulate that makes a lot of sense it’s almost like even just with breath in the time that I’ve spent with you which has been pretty minimal but I’ve spent you know a couple hours in breathing now it’s and maybe I said it on the last show but it’s almost like as you’re breathing and you’re going through it right around seven six seven minutes your nervous system kind of moves into this world that is so expansive and it just the breath and depth of that experience Al be it very very simple is something that’s very attractive um and something that I’ve integrated into my morning routine simply because of that it’s a noodle it’s the noodle it’s the noodle it’s the noodle and I love how you talk about the noodle too because um what I noticed when I was hooked up to the machines initially was is I would have this breath my heartbeat would be outside of the breath or in front of the breath and you know when I can I feel what that feels like in my nervous system when I’m able to breathe and have that Arc and then have my heart rate slightly under that and just with that feels like from a nervous system perspective and it’s kind of like a d room that hasn’t been explored in 38 years and I’m happy to be there right and I think too I think for a lot of my clients with trauma specifically medical trauma yeah it’s empowering to see their ability to regulate their own body when they feel like their body has been maybe fighting against them or damaged or broken and they start to see just a simple Act of a nice breath be able to regulate A system that then transfers into feeling better because that’s why anybody comes to the doctor right is to feel better I want to feel like myself again well you have to go back into yourself again and sometimes that’s scary sometimes that’s uncomfortable sometimes we don’t like our body because we’re mad at it for a myriad of reasons right or we just don’t understand it it’s a puzzle why does my heart do this so I don’t want to cry I get that a lot right I don’t want to cry I don’t like to cry quit making me cry and so then it’s well how do we regulate like tears are okay but it doesn’t have to overload you and I think that’s the fear that a lot of people have is I’m going to feel this and then I’m not going to be able to turn it off and so you might feel it and some of those intense emotions or for an intense situation that’s close to home it may take longer but you can stay regulated within it and what I’ve had clients in the past tell me is you know what I was really mad at you while this was going on because I thought I’m not supposed to get stressed out anymore she lied to me yeah this is counterproductive this is ridiculous I’ve been going to the bathroom and breathing and it’s not working but they didn’t get sick their IBS symptoms didn’t come back they were able to sleep that night they didn’t go and stop off and get the bottle of wine that they usually do after work they were able to stay within that coherent State although still stressed you can hold stress and you can hold confidence and you can hold peace and you can hold hold happiness all at the same time but the focus always goes on the discomfort physiologically it’s really staying within that zone of to tolerance right and so we can become hyperaroused we can become under aroused too and that has a lot to do with the parasympathetic you know this third sort of idea that we have okay sympathetic and we have parasympathetic so we have fight ORF flight and we have rest and digest but we also have freeze and that has a lot to do with depression and withdrawal and that involves the par sympathetic set system so yeah this zone of tolerance and remaining in that certainly the mental health aspect and and and the physiology hence psychophysiological aspect go hand inand in that treatment and I think having engaged in it now and and working alongside you know the best mental health therapist around having the privilege right um it becomes ever ever evident along the way uh how critical the two dimensions are as far as any treatment modality and really connectivity you know and and individualized Care yeah what I love so much about the modality and the way that you all speak about it and deliver it to your clients is it’s it’s not self-de it’s very empowering like you have this light and this greatness and this opportunity inside you and as we said on the last episode life is kind of built on top of that and suffocated your ability to see that clearly exactly so you are a light like you and it’s so important when dealing with mental health especially substance use because we have a lot of Shame going on so I just love that it almost creates uh you know my 12 subers would hate this but like some recovery autonomy yeah like who who would have thought like I can stand on my own due feet I can be strong and we can be strong together it’s a really really empowering way to look at the recovery process and one of which like I want to continually see myself inside and see the ones that we have the opportunity to serve at least know about the opportunity right feeling and be able to speak to that and introduce them to that on a daily basis because as we said on the last show um unfortunately people to build a narrative over treatment center after treatment center um that is pretty negative self-deprecating um I can’t change this is hop and as opposed to I’m just really disregulated I need to go regulate myself cuz like who isn’t yeah small course correction right it’s just it’s a disregulation I need and you learn what helps the precursors before sometimes if I try to sit and breathe it’s not going to work I need to go run and then come and breathe right because I have too much physiological energy that sitting down to breathe is only going to make it worse because I’m not going to be able to breathe so I’ve got to get that energy out or sometimes I need to go hit a hot yoga class yeah because I’ve got to get the stretching and the movement through my body so that then I can sit back and actually attune to connect with the breath so you have to kind of figure out what else you need to incorporate to allow you to pull in and that’s just like understanding your sensory needs and what your body’s telling you is going to allow it to absorb that whole intake and so that’s part of that process too yeah that makes it tremendous amount of sense I I just love kind of chatting with you guys and having you on the show it’s amazing I I’m really excited about getting this information out to the public and clients that come into care but I kind of want to end with this something that was really really unique to me in my experience in your office and for the viewers I’ve been in the office twice now for a total about three and a half three three and a half hours and I’ve loved my time there but when it was you two specifically what I noticed when I was hooked up to the machines and you all did it without a hitch all of the sudden I would be sitting there breathing and Dr Jen’s next to me and then all of a sudden I’d be sitting there breathing and then Dustin’s next to me right and you did this really symbiotic exchange of you know you come with a certain level of data and insight and you do the same thing as well and the way that you guys work in a team together I had never seen anything like that I thought that was really absolutely I thought that was really cool maybe can you guys touch on that how did you come to work so well together in the midst of like I mean I’m sure it’s trial and err it starts with something that I think neither one of us ever want to lose and that’s this intrinsic motivation to do good work and you know it sounds cliche but you know the minute that stops just reverberating in my head I need to retire clearly um so and and knowing my limits you know in in treatment in general as a behavior analyst as someone who initially was trained in treating overt or behavior that I can see so really arranging environmental circumstances to set my Learners whether they be Young Learners or adult Learners across situations whether it be at home or work or even uh on the on the mountain bike or something um being able to a expand that repertoire within the field of bow feedback n feedback now I can actually see and observe the neurological processes and start to tweak those as well but then the mental health realm and so I think that’s where we complement one another I’m kind of a numbers guy I really like the bof feedback I really like the neuro feedback I and and training that via the screens and the data he’s very much data but as you can as you can hear this one talk yeah uh I I just I get restful just listening to her and her tone and her eloquence in talking about human beings and and um and the and their and their journey across this big world right and I think in that way I am very proud of the ability that we carry more than one two three tools right I always talk about I go to the doctor and it’s like if I don’t fit into that lane I’m going to fit into that lane I mean there’s just no other there right this is what you do and there are treatment options out there and I think um Jen has certainly encouraged I think myself to expand my repertoire and then her repertoire speaks for itself so we’re able to really journey across this thing that we can observe and these things that we can’t observe and the intent is to just be effective certainly we have two kids we need to make money yeah exactly but I’ll tell you what that that is no more than just aligned with that aspect of just wanting to do good work because that feels good too and I want it to always feel good I think it some people will just respond better to Dustin based on how he does stuff with data and graphs and the numbers and he’s very good in all that realm that is not my Force I mean I can look at it and say see this red line it went up and that’s the goal yeah we did good and and that’s that’s for some people that’s all that matters right so it’s just the complimenting of the two yeah yeah it was really special I hadn’t normally you’re in an environment like that and shoot even my wife and I when we used to work together in the front end I’m interrupting her she’s interrupting me there’s no there’s not a lot of synergy there I guess time under tension and practice and really having an over it does it has its moments yeah I’m sure but having that overarching goal and that intention or purpose to just be do really well by the individuals that sit in front of you I think is pretty special um two things before we end here I wanted to clear up as well we have positive outcomes LLC right we have integrated mind and body right can you talk a little bit about those for the viewers the differences between them and where you can find that okay so positive outcomes is an organization that Jen and I start back in 2009 and it houses a team of professionals um proud to say homegrown I mean in this work you’ve got to know who works with you and and and be like-minded so um that’s grown to you know have a Clinical Director office manager and a a group of bcbas like myself like Jen and our primary uh effort is in serving children with disabilities okay neurological disorders such as Down syndrome autism uh Focus issues ADHD and really any learner who’s just struggling to get by and get their needs met effectively I always talk about the My My My Little Learners that we serve on the positive outcome side are are experts in getting their needs met they’re just not always doing it in socially appropriate ways and we’ve got to challenge that but we’ve got to meet them where they’re at and we got to pull them along slowly so we got to approximate that growth so really that’s centered on the behavior analysis piece which is nothing more than just good teaching it’s the science of teaching and learning where we’re doing the same thing as any teacher out there but we’re really sweating the details yeah because we’ve got to and those Little Learners deserve it so we’re just really teaching them good alternative ways of getting that same need met and clearly that has so much to do with caregivers they’re Central in their child’s life and the environments in which they exist so we have to understand all that as well um that has done well because of our staff uh I I am really proud of the staff we’ve we’ve uh developed over there so they’re doing a wonderful job which has then allowed Jen and I to Branch off um to the integrative side you want so the goal for the integrative mind and body was to pull in my trauma Focus so that’s my specialization as trauma and because of of the clientele that I work with which is a lot of complex trauma medical trauma you can’t in my opinion humbly yeah treat that without pulling in the physiology and without pulling in some of the neurology and really supporting the whole person and the whole body and integrating that that Wellness that needs to come for real longlasting healing to come and also to give people strategies so that they don’t have to come back anymore right and um and so we pulled that in together and um doing a lot of the bio feedback the neuro feedback and then a lot of the trauma talk therapy family therapy that we do over there so that is purely mental health trauma biof feedback and neuro feedback okay yeah and um integrated mind and body what is the website it’s I mindbody Wellness llc.com okay mindbody wellness llc.com and then we have positive outcomes positive outcomes llc.com okay yep awesome thank you well it’s been so incredible having you all on the show as you guys are sitting there talking I’m thinking we should have bio and neuro feedback in all the schools oh yeah there should be a counselor there um learning disability maybe that’ll be for the next right the the research supports it the efficacy supports it but it’s going to challenge day-to-day operation of business right and we know what we you know that that takes time certainly yeah yeah well thank you so much and for the viewers out there thank you again please find us on all the all of your favorite spots to get Podcast Spotify Instagram [Music] Facebook

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Episode 117Organizational Health Through Outcomes Data with Maeve O’NeillWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/kLsGop3BcTUListen NowDescriptionIn this special episode, Chris Burns borrows Maeve O’Neill from Circa Behavioral Health Solutions to talk all things outcomes data! From finding the organizational disconnection to pinpointing crucial leadership pillars, the conversations within this episode are astounding. For more information on Maeve, or Circa Behavioral Health Solutions, check out circabehavioral.com.

Talking Points1. Introduction to Maeve (1:30) 2. Where is the disconnection? (2:51) 3. Leading causes of burnout (5:30) 4. Deconstructing the overworked mind (7:15) 5. We are not well (12:05) 6. Processes and policies (14:30) 7. Maeve’s current research (15:30) 8. Does compliance create complaining? (20:23) 9. Closing thoughts (22:30) Quotes

“If we want clients to be recovering, families have to be in recovery. But I almost think that until we have systems in organizations that are healthy in recovery, we’ll never get that. Why do we think our staff don’t need grief and loss and support? I just don’t think we can expect our clients to be healthier than we are.”– Maeve O’Neill, Circa Behavioral Health Solutions

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -117- Transcripts[Music] hey everybody Yours Truly Chris Burns founder and chief executive officer at Peaks recovery centers we are live at the 49th annual winter Symposium interviewing you already know it amazing professionals but even better humans really excited to bring you the next guest today director of quality and compliance at Circa Behavioral Health Care ma O’Neal an amazing professional but an even better human check us out all right well I’m so grateful to be here was just a phenomenal guest professional and even better human being M O’Neal with Circa Behavioral Health Care how are you doing today May I’m great thanks for having me here absolutely so great to actually have you in studio you know we had you on a couple years back and Brandon had you on virtually and I just know when we get your energy in a place the people the audience can really connect with that cuz one of the things that really speaks to me about who and what you are is authentic and I’m so grateful to have you in there we met ma years ago probably 2016 or 2017 when we were going through our first Joint Commission survey and it’s been so cool to be not only supported uh through her through the Joint Commission but also as she’s moved into these other roles and really been Dynamic and leading organizations in the compliance regulatory issues and things of that nature so what are you doing now for circa Behavioral Health and and what do you love so much about it you seem to have so much passion behind what you’re doing well I kind of have to give you guys a little bit of credit for that you guys are my last joint commission survey that I did um and I was moving on to my first role as a compliance officer for an organization and to be able to go having seen such a wonderful program right as a surveyor in this field for 30 some years you see a lot of programs that are okay you see a lot that are not so good so to see people like you guys that are doing good work with good leadership and then serving clients in a good way it’s just a it’s inspiring right and it made me want to do more of that and help more people do that so what I love is that this field attracts people who are helpers I think we come from families and communities that need our services and with even post pandemic though it’s even worse now right more clients in need there’s more um need for services so we’ve got to find those people and build those services that are doing the right stuff and I don’t think it’s hard to do that but it’s hard to find the people that care about it enough so I’m hoping to find more of those people I love that too you’re actually bringing up something for me that I know we went through we did a Dar leite training with you organizational Heth what are you finding within organizations you know we were just sitting in a talk that talked about organizational burnout staff leading the great exit um what are you experiencing within organizations that’s is so disconnecting right now yeah well I don’t think it’s that much different than the rest of the world right we know burnout is epidemic right now in every field but in Behavioral Health we just don’t talk about it I think because we’re mental health professionals we don’t want to admit that we maybe could be burning out right I know when I was burning out in 2013 I didn’t know what it was and I didn’t want to admit it um and then we have I think burnout is number one I think next is turnover when people are burning out in our organizations then they’re leaving or they’re quitting or they’re just sort of checking out and not doing the work so then everyone else is having to pick up the slacks and then we’re getting even more kind of unstressed and that and then I think the culture gets impacted people are feeling stressed we don’t have the support we need leaders are feeling like why aren’t why isn’t the job getting done why are people leaving I can’t find good staff and we do a really good job of sort of blaming and shaming well we yeah young people don’t want to work today or no one wants to come do the hard stuff or um and I just think we have to acknowledge that we’re part of the problem as organizations As Leaders we have to do something different in what we’re bringing to the table right when I was burning out I worked for an organization that I couldn’t ask for help and when I did they said well may do more yoga or something I don’t know what to tell you it’s your fault right yeah you hear about self-care a lot and I don’t like that term either because I really feel like it has to start with the organization with Role Models as from the leadership and then we have to have teams that do it in our daily work you know as a compliance officer I think our job is to build in mindfulness and healthiness and ways that make us the Daily work easier and then we’ll have healthy staff we can’t just demand staff to be healthy yeah this so true too and one of the cheap causes of burnout is is actually not naming it right not naming the ISS right something that I’ve noticed lately is the teams coming to me they’re like you know we’re burn out we’re doing a lot of things and um our new Clinical Director pemma white stepped right in and she said here’s what we’re going to do we’re going to get an administrative day each and every clinician can just close the door to their office have a bit of autonomy have the family picture there turn on some classical music and just do their administrative work whereas before it was very much um a disconnected process we see a client followed by another client followed by another client followed by another client and then I have all this data entry and this note taking and so it becomes really burdensome and really disconnected from uh the documentation from the session and so we’re finding just little implementations over the last few weeks and that was one of them I saw the staff literally the clinical team
go and so what are you seeing on your side of things like what are some of the chiefs of burnap because it’s happening so much more now than it was 15 years ago at least in experience well I think the pandemic is part of it right we just know the world is under more stress we’re all a little more scared a little more fearful a little worried kind of what’s going to happen I think also we’re setting better balance like I don’t want to work 12-hour days I want to be home with my family I don’t want to be gone because what if something bad happens um so that’s part I think the reality check of we all need better balance in our lives but I also think the clients that we serve are tougher you know they they’re more acute they’re more complicated we got family stuff and medical and legal and so you know when I started the field um we had different units for mental health or addiction or the drugs were over here and now it’s all one client with all these issues so I think we have to then look at the documentation administrative issues and figure out how do you make a clinician’s case load manageable and their daily schedule manageable so and to me as a compliance officer I think we have to carry some of that like I love and my job at Circa as a fractional compliance officer we can come in and take that off of you I don’t want anyone who serves clients to worry about compliance I want to make it easy it’s in your policies it’s in your protocols I do your quality meeting for you you know we’re doing your performance Improvement like we make it easy so the the burden is off with people that are doing the direct line work with clients yeah that’s a really big deal and and can really like alleviate some of that I find some of our clinicians especially in leadership roles to the talks Point earlier it was like a lot of these people on leadership roles are being pulled out of of some of their day-to-day passions to sit behind a computer screen and data entry and I saw some really good ways for using you know the advances within the technology space in our field to help support and counterbalance some of that intensity that going miss in space and something that I don’t often think of you know it used to be 15 years ago I always talk to my brother about this I like you get a gold star for never leaving the office you know you get promoted because you know and I heard things like sleep when you down you know and everybody anybody on leadership or the people that work 12 hours a day they never put their phone down and I think we’re actually learning that that’s not the way it’s not the way I love when I when I uh went to my first compliance officer job and I tried to build that help build that culture and I was at our corporate office in Nashville and there was with couches and stuff in that room and I was in there talking to someone and one of the call center staff came in and laid down on the couch and my instinct as a prior leader was like um aren’t you aren’t you on the clock like should you be sleeping in front of the compliance officer but that that’s what I told you to do that’s what I I taught you is okay right and I was so proud of that person to do that but we absolutely have got to change the mentality right my new mantra is happy and healthy staff are ethical and compliant to provide quality and safe care we can’t just demand you to be a good clinician a good provider if we’re not building the environment that makes it easy to be ethical compliant and happy and healthy because you have to have all three yeah so that’s my new dream to help build that in organizations that in the daily flow in the expectations in the Supervision in the leadership it’s all got to be there and that’s got to be the consistent message yeah I’m also think all think about your question before the Symposium I should have just said yes and scheduled that because it would have been really nice but as I’ve stepped in back into the CEO role over the last few weeks what I’m seeing is that the work life balance just isn’t there and unfortunately PE some people are working 71 hours others are working 38 hours we just don’t have we don’t have or hadn’t had this efficient way to operate into your point and the Talk plan earlier it’s it it’s on us as owners and providers to ensure that this is carried out and one of the things that I’m telling the tap and even though we’re right sizing the model and right sizing that we can be more efficient and we can take great care of each other and ourselves as a result and so but it has to start with me and I to telling all the professionals earlier I was like I’m not going to work 12 hours a day that’s not efficacious for anything that I have going on nor is it OCA for the facility to have me here that long right you know no not at all and I think too it’s it’s sort of that mentality that we want to I remember when I first on Feld was like first one there last one to leave that was kind of the mentality until I burned out and everyone said well why do you do this like well I thought I had to right I thought it was expected of me but I think it’s really not and I was in a session yesterday on Sunday um and someone said all this stuff sounds like fluff talking about leadership and teamwork and resilience it’s like fluffy stuff it’s really not right we know from the research the companies that take care of their people actually make more money they’re more profitable even in other Industries right if we take better care of our people they will take better care of us and our clients therefore you get higher senses and longer lengths of stay and more money yeah You’ probably even been met with the the comment that oh that’s a very privileged view right right or it’s fluff it’s similar to like family systems and like when we say you know the way out is through not just for the individual but the family and we get to do this and a lot of times families are this very we’re all in a facility right now that tends to be very Qui and we have the privilege of being here we might as well take advantage of the opportunity to recover in a parallel way that’s Lisa Smith’s quote by the way that’s my friend um parallel uh reclaim recovery and she developed the model that’s parallel recovery and it’s built on this idea that the client goes through care sixe curriculum the family does the same thing and it turns out that maybe the need an e model isn’t the most efficacious and the family actually needs to go through grief week family needs to take a look at identity and purpose and really kind of healing from the outside in both organizationally and individually but i’ I’ve heard that comment before with respect to some of these dare to leave oh wouldn’t it be nice if we had time to DARE Le you know we do yeah but that’s I think that’s even to what your point is like if we want clients to be recovering families have to be in recovery but I really almost think until we have systems organizations that are healthy in recovery we’re never going to get that like why do we think our our staff don’t need grief and loss and and support and all this stuff I just don’t think we can expect our clients to be healthier than we are and at this point that’s what we’re asking them to do because our systems are not healthy and our staff are not well but we think they can give it to other people so think we’re almost like making it worse because we’re assuming they’ got it because they got licensure or they’d got some experience or some title you his class yeah exactly know 10 years ago I’m sure you’ll be fine but he really even as a licensed clinician we never got anything about burn out or you know that kind of stuff dealing with insurance companies right the stress that could happen and and just the state of the world today I think is as bernee Brown says like we’re just not well as a people as a human kind so I I would love to look at Behavioral Health and think that we’re leading the way in the well-being of our Workforce and workplaces and we’re not in fact we’re almost like denying that it applies to us which is very strange to me it is very strange yeah in organizational Health when we’ve been organizationally healthy in the past we are just getting so much work done with individuals people are feel like seen valued and heard and you know I’ve also heard the story too like you could be seen valued and heard somewhere outside of the workplace people are here to work what do you say that yeah I’ve had the CEO once say to me we pay him a paycheck but what do they want yeah crazy but you think about we spend the most hours in our day at work whether we’re at home doing it or in a workplace so the majority of our day is spent there and if that is stressful or conflicted or you know tense or whatever it is how can it be productive how can it be helpful and then we go home you know and then we’re unhappy so I just feel like we have to realize that if we’re going to have I remember early on it would be like you want to create an environment with your kids to be a healthy family right I mean you’ve got your boys like you want to have a healthy family you can’t do that just by chance you put a lot of effort and work and time into it but I think in work places we think well it’ll just happen organically you have to put the same amount of work into it like you said when I’ve done that work is when you see the results you know and you can see and it’s so easy to drift like oh we’ll do that meeting next week or we’ll we’ll have that team retrieve next month you know we’ll put it off and put it off and and then things happen and you don’t get to it and then you wonder like oh our census is low or incidents are happening or you know we’ve lost money well why it’s probably because six months ago you stopped talking to your people right it’s so interesting that you’re talking about that now and kind of where Peaks is as an inflection point you you know we’re in some of the most you know I get right sizing and then going through we’re really busy right now we got the conference going on and you know I just felt you we had TJ out here and he’s we’re doing the conscious recovery thing so he’s coming into the team on Thursday and Friday and like we just we need to grieve yeah we’ve lost some friends both clients and staff members that were really big pillars at Peaks and they’re not there anymore and so like we need to come together and build trust and talk about what’s going on and you would think that our industry would be at the Forefront of this right but clearly we’re not on no no we should we should have a manual for it right I mean in my ideal view as a compliance officer that has a wholehearted view of the world is there should be a policy when our organization goes through these changes what do we do well we have Team meetings we have access to EAP we have leadership meetings we have a retreat like there should be like a protocol like we do with when a when a suicide happens or when an incident occurs like there should be a protocall for every client there’s we’re not Health but why don’t we have that for organization we just kind of wing it and help for the best or we kind of just push it aside I love that it’s actually giv me some ideas is like but we’re going to have that protocol yes I hope so cuz then we don’t have to think about when we because crisis is going to happen grief change is going to Happ change is going to come you know it’s going to be intense we work on Behavioral Health why not just know right away hey staff is experiencing burnout disconnection um and sub transfer we just do AV andc right away and from a safety component just feeling safe and being able to settle in the workplace I think that’s huge component yeah yeah so my dream I’m doing a doctoral program right now and my dream is and my research is going to be about measuring burnout if it plays measure do you measure your burnout what does that look like how do you know in your staff if Ma’s team is burning out or and then um what’s your turnover I me that’s the easy data you know your turnover rate is it going up is it going down what’s happening and then what is your culture is the culture doing well right now and what if we looked at those numbers every month every quarter and then we did something about it like you’re supposed to do with um performance Improvement right we are you adjust yeah oh good we got to do it and then we’re going to develop best practices well if your turnover goes up you should do these three things if your burnout goes down you should do these three like I feel like we should we should have some good protocols some evidence-based practices because know people are doing it out there there’s people doing a lot of the right things just got to pull it together and share it yeah no I think that’s so huge and what that can do like just from an ecosystem and I always go back to like bestl vard folks work and like the body key and the score and like if I’m going into a trauma fi disconnected environment how do I not bring that with me and not only to mention that is sometimes we forget in this field that like you know with all like with all due respect our clinicians aren’t construction workers they’re not hammering nails they’re sitting with some very very heavy Mass story yeah and they’re engag with those people all day long yeah and so are the so is the sport staff and so what are we doing to support them yes especially in our field oh my go and so that’s something I’m very very passionate about moving into and something that I told the team as I come back in as a CEO was like we’re gonna get this part right yeah I will not I don’t have PTO We’re Not Gonna cash out 40 days we’re gonna use it but we need to figure out policies procedures and processes to inform that in a very very efficient way and I think to your point once we have that the metric becomes very efficient absolutely very supportive absolutely I saw Bessel years ago at a conference and I um I went up to him afterwards and I said I think I was I just had my son or my my second child maybe and I went up to him I said to him I something happens to me I that was a weird question I said drri um when I when I hug my children like I feel like my body regulates I don’t what it was he looks at me and he goes um that’s love and I’m just like holy crap I’ve never felt that before but in an unconditional way so then obviously I now now I do with my children and but now why don’t I feel that with my staff why don’t I have love in an organization or with my team like that’s love is the missing piece in our organizations I believe because we’re traumatized because we’re not well and because we don’t have the right supports in place yeah I love that you say that you know when I opened Peaks back in 2014 not only did we open in program with Theodore Rosevelt quote says nobody cares what you know until they know that you care and we dubed that down into client culture and I think over time we forgot to do that with our team yeah in a very connected way and I used to say things to like Jason freeas of the world and I when he started with us back in 2015 said this will be the best JN I’ve ever had well sometimes I still conceptualize that I’m living in a world where we have 15 employees and everything can be solved at lch ship my office and we all have lunch ship hang out and talk about our days while clients are you know offsite at Community Based resources I told myself a story that and then all of the sudden here we are in 2023 and we had 100 employees and no Organization no organizational Wellness platform to inform our day-to-day operations and connect events so it just kind of gets away away from you real quick before you don’t it’s like oh we got to reel that back in and get back to the basic totally and I love what you say too because most people think wow that’s not going to be cost effective but all of your research and your experience both personally and professionally said that these metrics build all of that back into your company yes yes yes the data is out there we know that there are 4 to 500 companies that the military there are places that are doing this and are seeing the results the returnal investment is clearly there um even in other countries doing research that’s showing that it’s like multiples of you know it’s amazing that we don’t do it but I think it be help we don’t have the model for it we don’t have someone yet that sort of said This is how we do it this is what it looks like um so I’m hoping in my research we’ll be able to pull that and then we’ll share that and you can tweak it for your organization it’s not going to be like a um a solution that’s going to fit everybody right every team is different every leader is different but there’s going to be a toolbox of things people can choose from hopefully I can try this I can try that this works for me this doesn’t let’s try everything and then see what happens yeah I love that one word question do you find that and I think this would be somebody uhre maybe some entrepreneurs questions some providers some ownership groups you know if I introduce this model does it create an ecosystem where people just keep playing all the time right what do we do people play all the time what would you say to something like that well I think that was my fear too I I remember early on I used to feel like these people are so needy right knock on my door all day long like f know until my staff said to me ma we we need to be able to talk to you and we we can’t like we like you we like worker for you but you are not available to us like they actually had the I had created an environment where they would tell me that I wasn’t meeting their needs and I love that I did that but I was like well I don’t know what to tell you yeah yeah it’s not gonna happen but until I got ber Brown trained and I realized oh wait it can be different and when you when you let people feel seen and heard then they will react differently to the tools that you give it but it’s got to be skill-based right I can’t just sort of if I join in their in their complaining or I too am complaining that’s what you’re going to have and that gossip and negativity spreads very quickly that’s very contagious right but as ber teaches us so is courage and so is compassion so when you do that it’s very different and like my boss now Devon Wade is a perfect example of that he is like the perfect organizational Health leader and every day he shows up for us he lets me do Dar to lead every Friday and our team meeting so my whole our whole team is getting trained um and every week he leads with vulnerability and authenticity and he we all complain to him but he has his way of hearing it and listening to it and supporting us that just you want to stop that you want to contribute in a positive way so I think that’s our fear while we don’t do it but I gu if you do it in a skill-based way with the right Tools in place it doesn’t become that that fear doesn’t come true I love that too and it’s so interesting you say that I was had the opportunity to go in from our leadership our clinical to because gone through some of these changes people are sad M and they’re hurt and for the first time in two weeks you know differently than meeting with the battlefield Department um I felt like I could be authentic and the room actually called for that and that was actually non-negotiable and as I moved through it I started to see that through me letting down my guard and being where I’m at and maybe jumping down in the hole with them a little bit and be like yeah this sucks for all of us I started to see a level of comfort at settle and safely now we have to have the plan moving forward which will support that um but you’re so right I’ve been able to see it throughout not only my own personal recovery Journey but my professional life some of those rooms they just really demand authenticity yeah for people to lean in and get down for the cause yeah yeah I think sometimes as Leaders we think we need to be like the strong and the knowing and the like oh here’s the solution that’s not what people want and I think my children taught me that the most like uh mom can you stop talking to stop asking questions stop you know let us just be who we are and just listen you know and love us and so my kids have kind of always been my my teachers in that and so I try to apply what they teach me to to the rest of of the world that’s so cool yeah those kids will you’re right it is it is so important to be where you’re at when jumping into this thing called parenting and they actually don’t care what happened at the opice today they want to know that you can sit there these meaningful moments that matter and we do so to transition that into organizations and really allow people to be seen in that um is the way wow and I appreciate you highlighting that for us today I look forward to being a part of this doctoral study uh Peaks has always been huge fan of what you do um and how you do it in a very sincere vulnerable and authentic way um you are a Titan in this industry and I’m grateful that you graced us with your presence today my FR thank you we’re going to change it together let’s do it awesome thank you man thank you

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Episode 116Organizational Compliance with Mike Lifshots of Hatch ComplianceWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/AJUt9-VxCYQListen NowDescriptionIn this special episode, Chris Burns borrows Mike Lifshots of Hatch Compliance to share his valuable insight into all things organizational compliance and processes. Mike and his team at Hatch are industry leaders providing professionals with the tools to thrive as businesses through building processes, ensuring safety compliances through staff and leadership, and so much more! For more information on Mike or Hatch compliances, check out hatchcompliance.com.

Talking Points1. Why is compliance so disconnected? (0:58) 2. Looking into compliance with staff (3:00) 3. Overview of organizational safety (8:28) 4. Current issues with outcomes (10:24) 5. Organizational processes (16:50) 6. Mike’s story of getting involved with Hatch (22:25) 7. The process with Hatch Compliance (27:36) 8. Psychedelic research and regulations (40:00) 9. Mike’s testimony with psilocybin(43:50) 10. Closing thoughts (46:25) 11. Check out hatchcompliance.com (47:39) Quotes

“Your outcomes mean nothing if you can’t repeat it or figure out what you need to do differently.”– Mike Lifshots, Hatch Compliance

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -116- Transcripts[Music] hey everybody Yours Truly Chris Burns founder and chief executive officer at Peaks recovery centers we are live at the 49th annual winter Symposium interviewing you already know it amazing professionals but even better humans I know everybody gets excited when we talk about compliance but get ready for this next guest Mike LIF shots a great industry leader and friend talking about all things compliance and how to improve our organizational outcomes check us out all right so grateful to be here with Mike lift shots today with hatch compliance but so much more than just compliance we have a great professional but an even better human in front of us had the opportunity to hear him speak today also sit with him and spend some time I just want to Dive Right In why is compliance such an arduous disconnected issue for so many organizations I think the reason why we see that so often is the way people manage compliance and has always been really cumbersome on the staff MH it took a lot of time it’s very confusing as you’ve probably seen the regulations or the um or the standards that are put forth are not prescriptive right they’re going to say I want you to do a facility walkthrough once a month but they don’t tell you what they expect from you right yeah so you have to interpret that regulation figure out what they want from you and then create documentation around it so one if you’re doing that at at your facility and everybody else is doing something different at their facility there’s no way to compare you were talking about quality right how can you compare quality organization to organization if there’s nothing to compare it almost feel like somebody just checking these boxes that’s it building their own plan to make sense of it yeah and there’s there’s really no there’s no counter like there’s nothing you can do with it and people don’t get excited behind it and something that you were talking about earlier is like let’s just not make this a checking box experience how do you do that how do you do it over at hatch compliance what is the methodology you guys engage with one other thing I want to add to to where to to your point is if you’re a facility or if your program has locations in multiple States you’re required for multiple things from multiple States you you have different responsibilities state to state so one of the things we push on is is national standards there has to be some more uh adherence to a National Standard um so to to go to your question about uh about collecting it your information needs it needs to be easy for your staff to enter their information relating to compliance right they need to know what they need to do when they need to do it and they need to have guidance so that they know they’re doing it right A lot of times there’s just this freeze right I don’t know what I need to do so I’m just going to wait MH and then you wait and then time passes and before you know it you’re 2 years 9 months into a three-year Joint Commission cycle and now you’re finding or creating your information and there’s no value to it right the problem with that is yes you’re checking the Box you have your accreditation you’re not helping your clients you’re not helping your payers you’re not helping organizationally because your staff is just overwhelmed doing this stuff so what we do at hatch is we created a software where we’ve interpreted all the regulations across all the states Joint Commission carf we built them into automated workflows that guide the appropriate staff memb on what they need to do when they need to do it how to do it and then we give the oversight to leadership and management was it done on top of that since it’s a single system your staff adopts it very easily sure and all the data is collected in one place so you can aggregate the data so you’re talking about checking a box checking a box is a waste of time and that’s what people feel about compliance is it’s a waste of time time now if your data is presented to you in a way where you can improve your client length of stay where you can reduce AMA and ATA where you can lower your incidents where you can keep your staff longer with less turnover and train them more efficiently and more effectively now you’ve gone from a box checking exercise to a real business solution that not only helps your business but helps your clients so that’s really the the way our software has been designed and we’ve got a Consulting practice around that as well just because you got to make sure that the software works well and I imagine you’ve been around for a long time not every consultant is created equal yeah and U we we try to really put out the the best message that we can yeah I really love that and it’s actually you know you hear a lot of similar companies kind of marching to the beat of Their Own Drum or similar to others this is the first time I’ve heard from a compliance company that they’re creating a platform that integrates with company culture and not only satiates you know rules guidelines things of that nature but actually builds strength within companies absolutely do you have some examples of where you’ve gone in because one of the things that I see a lot especially with clinicians is this liability stuff right I don’t want to be liable my license you know doctors as well you know they got Dora overseeing and they want to make sure they’re abundantly compliant but then we get right back into this box checking thing and it really doesn’t satiate and it’s not built for distance or sustainable and so what have you seen like coming into programs maybe speaking of like clinical departments in general how have you seen clinical departments change and adopt the idea that like no this is very very helpful like how do we get there it has to start with leadership has to start with leadership if you are if your culture is not a culture of looking for improvement right sometimes people are just okay with the status quo and what they’ve been doing and a lot of times you have leaders and owners and SE sweet people or anybody at any level who’s making more money than they’ve ever made or making enough money to be comfortable and they’re okay with that that is that creates a lot of that um I think there’s also a lot of kind of um old school thinking sure you know I’m new to this industry I’m six years in so I’m bright-eyed bushy tailed ready to go and ready to make a change and then you have people who have been in this industry 20 or 30 years and they’re going it’s never going to change you know we’re never going to go to Val care yeah and and and by the way value based care is here you know medical is requiring fee for fee for performance you know there are this is coming and I think that’s you know maybe another subject but that’s going to be very valuable for for treatment I think and I can see a lot of benefit to it but we do have to kind of get out of that this is how we’ve always done it kind of mentality if that makes sense no we’re really in that position right now we’re really shifting in in seasonal seasons of Peaks and really we want this to be a primary part of our process and be compliant and create what I what I think it does because I’ve seen what it does when it’s not there is it creates a l lack of safety and organizational wellness and trust and so even just beginning to talk about you know cuz for years I was like we’re human centered you know we don’t need to do that which was fine when we had 15 employees and 12 clients you know but now we’ve grown into an organization that’s nearly 100 people we serve 85 clients at any given time and so some of these things really build or speak to an inform safety for the organization absolutely there’s a lot of liability too you know we’re dealing with humans we’re dealing with humans that are struggling you know struggling emotionally struggling mentally maybe not as predictable as you’re going to find in acute care world right so having good processes is imperative and if you want to offer good treatment it it really is yeah it’s almost one of those things it’s like you know I I always use with clients that are coming into care I love to sit down with clients and have smoothies and talk to them about life and you know a lot of these things personally and professionally in the early stages of recovery or the maturation of business in general it feels like a huge step back it’s like now we’re going back to this thing and it’s going to take time but I always like to use that slingshot analogy is like this compliance side if done well is not a step back it’s an opportunity to get present with what is and always has been and then to begin to launch over from an outcomes-based perspective a financial perspective an AMA rate whatever it might be a position that we never been before that’s right and that’s that’s pretty cool to conceptualize it like that because everybody’s like I got to do this thing but what if it wasn’t just this thing what if it and you’re speaking to my heart when we talk about this will improve client outcomes you know this will help families recover these will help clinicians stay safe it’ll keep you compliant it’ll make you more money we’re talking about value based care now which is really really cool because they’ve been talking about that since I got into the field when I open PE we started keeping all the outcomes I’m like please ask us for outcomes please ask us so to hear that’s finally starting to shift that’s beautiful because professionals and general want to know that you know they they have their annual raises coming and potential bonuses and things of that nature and when we have a software or a platform that really speaks to the opportunity to inform that I think it’s really satiating think it makes me feel good well you know what’s funny about that right is there’s a couple of things a couple of issues with outcomes right now first first everybody’s measuring outcomes differently true right we I I will scream from the rooftops about standardization I think it’s imperative to for for Quality right so what’s good nobody knows what freaking good is because they don’t really have any kind of standard measure of it right right it’s not sober time that doesn’t does that inform quality of life no and that’s and that’s big and and there’s there’s value and symptom based outcomes like you know your Gad sevens and your phq9 nothing wrong with that but at the end of the day we’re not seeking treatment because we want to reduce our anxiety or we’re feeling suicidal we’re seeking treatment because we’re looking to improve our quality of life 100% right that’s why we’re here so if your outcomes don’t include a validated quality of life measure I love the recover Capital index I think David’s amazing and and what he’s do is is so valuable we have to be looking at standardized measurements of quality of life and integrating that with the outcomes here’s the other piece it’s huge when you were in high school right your teacher gave you an algebra problem M and you just gave them the answer what did they tell you I want to see you I want to see your work I want to see your work that’s right yeah how’d you get here that’s right how’d you get here so if all we’re looking at is the outcomes and you’re not looking at your procedures you have nothing to look at to understand what’s going well and what needs to be improved that’s what compliance is yeah and that’s why it’s so important and that’s why it’s so important to have your standardized policies and processes because your outcomes mean nothing if you can’t repeat it or figure out what you need to do differently yeah you know what I mean so it’s I I love these conversations because it you know it it makes me think and and it makes other people think and and I love the fact that you are so like open to doing it the right way absolutely you know I think that’s really important yeah you you said I was looking for that the key point we use we don’t use the company you mentioned we use another company I’ll tell you about it after the show and see what you think but one of the the quantitative was quality of life yeah people come in we have a quality of life score we we have surveys each week throughout treatment that inform quality of life um you know I think on our website it’s 94% of people that came through Peaks uh experienced a quality of life Improvement really yeah and so we’ll have to see where does that come from how is it collected that kind of thing but one of the things that it’s wrapped around is quality life and coming from the sud space for years it was like how many people you got 10 years sober I’m like what I’m beginning to learn over the last 5 years is actually that sobriety actually doesn’t inform any quality of life components Mental Health does and then mental health and healing on that side May inform sobriety but it doesn’t have to be there’s a lot of functionality and a lot of success out in our world right now that maybe got missed on that data collection simply because they’re professionals now 10 years later and they have a glass of wine and so I love what you’re talking about with the quality of life thing because it appears to be a metric that we can all get behind yeah well the you know and you look and you’re looking at cravings for example you know and you’re going yeah well once once they get past like the detox phase they’re really not that’s not going to be as valuable right so how are we looking at things more long term and yeah there’s the quality life now also there’s limited reporting on that too right once somebody goes through treatment a lot of times they don’t report much longer than that so it’s hard to get a lot of good data points on that so you know Finding ways to have good alumni relations that keep people in engaged longer and you know and then being able to start that relationship early so that they have the ability to continue to um to provide that information the other thing too that I see with outcomes where it doesn’t the the information is not fed longer term is when you get somebody to participate in an outcome survey you want to share that information with them show them where they were now where they are now versus where they were the last time they took this right because then people can see progress or people can see regression and you know maybe can can make a you know if your if your um alumni team is paying attention to these they may catch something negative before it happens and be able to reach out and and and I think that shows caring and it shows just you know genuine concern for for people and there’s so many people wanted to do awesome stuff in this field like this is It’s a dream being part of this field it really is especially right now mhm yeah there’s a lot of cool stuff coming and it’s interesting because a lot of those surveys we get a lot of people that’s how we identify that they’re struggling maybe it’s an alumni group and and again there’s a more sophisticated way to approach that to ensure that you get those outcomes and you get that data we’ve had so many people saying hey you know Joey’s looking for somebody to reach out he’s really struggling with this depression and then we can oh we can be preventative you know and I’m really a big fan you know I’m through the roof grateful and honored to be so trusted by clients that have gone through that they’ll come back to our program one two and three times but it breaks my heart it breaks my heart we we don’t want to be and I and I think you aligned with this so wholeheartedly is like I don’t want to be in the business for repeat business I want you to thrive I want you to go tell your families about it I want you to experience healing and some of these more granular issues call it compliance actually can begin to speak to that and I never gave it that weight in the past and I think I miss that market I’m so grateful today to be sitting in front of people like yourself that speak to it so clearly and how it can help client care right absolutely beautiful there’s and there are so many so many pull bullets that we could be looking at you know so many topics that we could be looking at for example you know what’s our hiring process right right who are we hiring in how are we vetting the people that were hiring I see so many times and I did a presentation on hiring and Staffing and data around it just the other day and you know who are we hiring this person because we are short staffed and we need somebody or are we hiring this person because they’re a good fit for our organization and what informs that well that’s that’s going to depend on who who you have one of the things talked about the other day in my presentation was about a new survey there’s a new tool out now that is like admirers Briggs oh really for clinical staff and they’re surveying and and having people take this survey before they hire get hired and they’re able to determine rather than just your subjective opinion able to objectively look at somebody’s skills versus their personality and see are they going to be a fit for our Organization for our clientele and like that is where that’s the future of this which is wildly valuable because just onboarding and people leaving that’s an extremely costly process not only costly it affects it affects AMA it affects other staff you know somebody comes in they’re not a fit they Poison the Well and next thing you know you have a big problem you know um so yeah it’s it’s like I said I’m always looking for what makes sense and where this can all go in fact we’re getting ready to start a um a a a research project okay with this this tool that does the um that does the the prehired data collection and the survey and hatch during the the process right and your procedures and then we have an outcomes tool that we’re measur measuring also and we expect to be able to quantifiably be able to determine how the hiring how the processes affect your outcomes and what can be done to uh on the front end to be able to improve that so you’re actually informing on the front end this efficient way to bring people I’ve been talking about this over the last week it’s like what actually informs when when we say I need a therapist we need a therapist like what kind of granular data points can we look at to inform in a very clear way that this person is a great fit here we need the position and it’s because we know that clinical contact happens from this hour to this hour this therapist spends 6 hours here 4 hours here 3 hours here and then that informs this opportunity for a missing eight hours a week or whatever it might be right now and I think that’s what we’ve gotten in trouble to you know we started as a really small business and we’re going up into not a big business but not as small sure and some of these really fite details and this granular data and these efficient ways and metrics that can inform that I almost feel like TJ’s like introducing me to everything we need today TJ I love TJ like like what what he’s doing is absolutely amazing and I love to have him on my show too because like he’s he’s we start out with an agenda and we just crumble the agenda throw it out and start from scratch and yeah I think that the other piece to to what you’re saying too is as a treatment Center understanding who we should and shouldn’t treat right that’s also part of a of a fee for performance or a value based care is we don’t we shouldn’t be treating everybody you know what are what are our demographics that we should be what do we have the best results with and then that also will give you quantifiable information on who you should be hiring you know there’s other things that you could be looking at too um whether it’s your Ama rate right with if you’re tracking am of course but now you want to throw in Social determinants of Health with your AMA right social determinance of Health your um uh drug of choice if you’re substance use Treatment Center uh you also want to throw in uh you know did this did this person leave on their first attempt M second attempt what attempt did they make cuz if somebody leaves on the first attempt that’s usually staff training issue right so by taking look at that who’s the primary therapist who’s the case manager what day of the week did this take place on dang and if and again like these are things that we think about because these are things that can reduce your AMA and increase your success rate and also increase just the overall well-being of the the people that uh you’re working with and um serving I really love that and and and and I love that it’s it’s kind of this company that you created because there’s not a lot of people that get into this industry that are like you know compliance I’m just so passionate about it in a way to speak to it that everybody can really kind of um chew up experience for themselves like so I think it’s it’s wonderful that you’re doing this because you don’t necessarily hire these people within organizations no it’s hard for them to exist it’s take someone like you coming along six years ago and being like I think there’s a piece missing here well you know what’s really funny right um so the way we our company started is my wife Renee is a uh is our chief compliance officer she’s our founder and I’m technically a Founder but she founded this thing and she needed it when she was running treatment centers and she saw what a pain in the ass compliance was in that whole check the box thing and the thing is is Renee is probably the smartest person I’ve ever met really but at the same time being able to take those ideas and me street them so that everybody can understand them that’s not her specialty right but that’s what I do and when I saw what she was doing and and I understand from a total newbie stpoint of what she was doing I was just Flor and I said I have to be a part of this so she said I said Renee I um I’m going to come work with you I had my own business I had several businesses that I was running at the time and and I go I’m going to come work with you and she goes no you’re not I figured that’s the answer she what do you mean mess this up yeah husbands and wives don’t work together it doesn’t happen you know what and and you know six years later we we joke about that all the time and how you how’ you get in were you like honey can I just go I’ll sell you well it was actually kind of funny I said I’m going to come work for you she says she says no I saw what happens when husbands and wives work together he said look everything in our lives is invested in this mhm I see where where your skills are I know where my skills are I’m going to go into your desk and I’m going to take that stack of business cards that you took from this conf from these conferences that you were at and I’m going to start calling people and I made hundreds and hundreds of phone calls but I didn’t know anybody I didn’t know not only did I not know anybody I didn’t know a thing I didn’t know what we were doing more like Q&A hey how are you who you seen the weather actually I used to say I used to say to people hey Bob um you met my business partner Renee at a conference a little while ago and I just wanted to check in with you oh great and I didn’t know what to say any of that stuff and um and one day the head inspector for Texas MH took me out on the road and introduced us to some people introduced me to some people and that was really where where all that happened so things things evolve when you give them air to evolve you know and and that’s kind of how how we’ve done it and you got to get a lot of feedback yeah you know so I love that what a cool story oh my wife and I actually did start Peaks we used to be in the conference Hall here in the Symposium her and I building up she’d set up the thing and uh she does to your point man she does so much so many things so much better than me from an organizational perspective I mean she was at the facility the other day and she’s like Chris this place is really unorganized and I’m like I know but are we can you hang out for a little bit and show me what to do you know but for the viewers and I think this is and and I love that this this turned into more of like talking about what you do because I’m very very intrigued and I think the industry needs to be passionate about this as well but what does it look like for somebody who comes in and wants to utilize hat do AR because I’m looking at it like you know thinking what maybe most people think like oh that sounds really arduous the onboarding is probably terrible the integration probably takes forever and you know we don’t have time we’re experiencing burnout and you know how can you make this easy for us well we start by strapping you to a chair and then we pull out your nails toenails fingernails that’s like the first the first step of the process love it um and then it’s it’s actually much easier than you would think it all depends you know if you want to start the easiest thing is when you’re opening your facility right is you start from the beginning M because really I mean that’s that’s when nothing has been created yet you can kind of build on everything but you know you’ve got years and years and you have to to build so we we’ve really and you talked a little bit about this earlier where sometimes you got to stop take a look around step back and analyze where you’re at so um we had run our business a certain way for several years and then this year we pulled the plug on new sales for a little while and completely revamped all of our processes processes for onboarding to make things easier different tools things like that so really it’s it’s very simple if you want to start the the nice thing about what we do compared to any other compliance solution that you’re ever going to find is we interpret the regulations for you we provide you all the documentation that you’re going to need that’s formatted for your state and for your regulatory bodies or for your accrediting bodies so you don’t have to for any other software you’re going to have to create all of this including all of your training you’re going through 300 Pages oh there it is yeah you know so the way the way it works for us is you start out you have your your leadership and your management goes through some basic processes where we find out what is your state what bodies are you accredited by we also want to learn about your physical plant MH you know do you have a stairwell do you have a generator do you have a bu ground water tank do you have pole stations or commercial kitchen these kinds of things right and then what’s going to happen is that this is kind of the Magic in in all of this is we’re going to find out this information about each one of your locations and then on your next login you’re going to get together with someone from the compliance team in that meeting you’re going to see a compliance score come across your desk your compliance score is your risk score M if the Joint Commission showed up today your state showed up today you would be at 76% and this is why so you have this that you haven’t done you have this that you have done you have this that’s upcoming now you can either do it or you can assign it to somebody yeah and it’s all just automated so you don’t have to you don’t have to remember anything it’s almost like an aura ring yeah you’re ready score oh yeah your Readiness score is low today or go ahead and send it or you need to pay attention to these things you took while to fall asleep you didn’t have this and so it’s very very clear it’s very clear and it just also conditionally formatted so that when you go in there and you say uh maybe you’re doing your checking of your emergency lights right are your emergency lights battery powered or are they hardwired and if they’re battery powered you’re going to get a different battery of questions than if they’re hardwired you’re going to get something different Human Resources is a nightmare for people because every state has different requirements for different background checks at certain staff members and that’s all built in you don’t have to know anything it just guides you if you have a compliance person you’re making them so much more efficient that they can actually be reviewing your data and looking at quality metrics yeah and if you’re a small facility and you just don’t have the bandwidth or the staff to do things then you have a tool that has clear oversight to know what’s there versus what’s missing that’s huge and if you’re a moderate size facility it just makes things so much more effective and efficient um so the other thing too is if you’re opening a facility we’ve got all the audit tools that you need to get ready so if you’re going to apply for a license this is all you got to do I love that too and we have a safety compliance officer but to your point she spends so much time like the other day I wanted to get a specific uh statute within the state to speak to the clinical team because they were worried about a couple things so I say hey we can you look for this data she’s like I just read I’m at 190 Pages at 300 like to your point it’s like that that information is already input in she can do she’s great at what she does too but just be supported through some data and some very and Clarity I mean goes right to it I can’t tell you we’ll spend days sometimes searching for a needle in the Haack so I got a funny story about that how many times do you ask somebody um I need you to do this maybe annual evaluation or ligature assessment perfect perfect example and somebody will say well we’re an outpatient facility we don’t need to do a ligature risk assessment and then you have to or somebody has to go through the regs and find this to prove to them that you have to do a ligature risk assessment as an outpatient facility right it creates friction for the staff it creates stress for everybody on in our system the way it’s built on the ligature risk assessment there are every single regulation that’s relevant to that ligature risk assessment for your state and for your crediting body right in front of you wow so you and it’s all programmed in so when you have somebody say that to you you can go no just click this link and the red comes up with the standard right or with the requirement right there yeah and you know we talk about how do you keep your people happy MH don’t fight with them right right it’s not it’s not who’s right or wrong the information’s just there and I always go back to the beray brown I was just sitting with M who’s beray Brown trained clear is kind like and if it’s clear it’s transparent clinician staff otherwise they go well they don’t think that you’re arbitrarily asking them to do something and and and and that that just goes such a long way you know and as a manager as a leader you you want to you want to work cohesively not and not Bute head so you know being able to get to to give that info is is really helpful yeah I agree and and you know to your point I think it really right away with what we’re walking through now it can decrease burnout and create trust you know a lot of folks are working in these areas I mean we have CL our Clinical Director and sometimes some of our leaders who are literally spending hours searching for the r to be right to inform company culture and having a platform that just speaks so clearly to it and everybody can log in and just check it out and then safety lights you know you think of something like we think of all the big things and it’s like oh the safety lights don’t have batteries and if this place does shut down those not very safe you know and so just thinking about things and as a leader especially an owner operator there’s so many granular details to assess and conceptualize and be aware of and be present with that your platform really speaks to an efficient way to operate so that we can get back to doing what we do best which is treating clients with love and respect and presence and the other thing too is you have the your staff has that it frees up some time for your staff and then you say okay what are we going to do with that time right a manager or a leader can look at that extra time that you free up the staff and give them a little bit of breathing room right give them a little bit of time to I mean our staff is dealing with a lot yeah right and vicarious trauma is real and so by being able to lighten the load a little bit and give them some a little bit of breathing room does wonders with improving just just the the relation of your team another piece of another thing that a lot of people Overlook you know you mentioned the emergency lights is your policies like as a compliance organization with a consulting firm we get called in when the [ ] hits am I allow to curse okay we get called in when the [ ] hits the fan yeah happens all the time M and when you get called into a facility because it’s an outpatient facility and the staff couldn’t find the policy on emergency room visits so they took them to the emergency room anyway but they forgot to call the emergency contact because they didn’t know what the policy was on that and then we get called in because there’s a lawsuit yeah put them in their car yeah whatever there’s all kinds of things that happen so you know making your people aware and accessible and to policies most the amount of policy books that I see done on paper getting big waste of time but being done and thrown in closets somewhere where nobody has access to that big old binder in the corner on a shelf somewhere it’s got dust all over it no one can find it like these are your business plans or you talk to organizations and I really I I can’t imagine that you do any of these things I I I hope you know I’m not uh you know speaking out of term but like if your staff can’t find policies how can you expect them to know what to do and then you’re talking clear as right and people don’t think about these things people also think you know I’m paying them for 40 hours a week who cares how that they’re yeah they’re doing it and and we’re dealing with people and we’re and a lot of times our staff suffers from the same kinds of illnesses and the same kinds of things that our clients do which could make it really a valuable resource and a lot of times we end up stressing our people out I know so you know looking at all of those things um can be really helpful you know this this is an amazing industry and I and I and and the people who are looking to do it the right way are going to be really successful yeah yeah you’re really speaking to me throughout this in just just the season of Peaks and in our 10th year you know a lot of this thing is is starting to make a lot of sense to me now and getting folks in there just to support um from an outside perspective with Clarity um not just Clarity but the finite details that inform not just the way we do clients but the way we write policies and procedures how do we do that the way that we hire the way that we staff the way that we Market um the way that we bring people in are they a good fit y you know many times we we you know bringing in Mission In is pretty expensive to do and you bring an admission in only to find out that that’s not a good fit for your facility causes burnout for staff so it’s like this domino effect that if we can get in front of it right now we can create some stability um and some safety within the organization that is is really fun to be a part of you know I think with with your software it’s like man this is cool it’s very clear we can pull it up we can do it together it can be a group activity I could do it on my own I just really love what you’re doing and I love that you’re seeing in a field that is at times outdated I’m love that you’re seeing so much opportunity for us just to get better yeah you know well there’s there’s so and again this is just my personality I’m the glasses half full guy like and I think you’re the same way yeah in fact a funny story somebody referred to me the other day as um as a um a Labrador puppy kind of kind of a an excited an excited a golden retriever energy that was the word she she said I had golden retriever energy and I love that because yeah that’s how the world changes when you have people who say there’s a better way to do it and I’m going to figure out how to do it and that’s you know by doing things the way we’ve always done it that’s just the enemy of progress you know and and yeah it seems like like whether we do business or we don’t do business I definitely want to get to know you better you know and it’s kind of funny we you know really in the beginning of the conversation MH you were talking about um Peaks you were talking about you know achievements and and getting to the top you know but it’s it’s never ending goal to to get somewhere you know what I mean we’re always looking to get to the next and to the next and and I think appreciating where we’re at true and where we’ve come from yeah gives us a lot of opportunity to to kind of plan for where we want to be yeah it actually speaks so clearly like your presentation your passion speaks so clearly to our mission and vision which is to disrupt the industry through quality of care and when I when we first made that it was almost like we’re just going to be disruptful just to be disruptful but these are concrete examples and opportunities that we can move into holistically um and in a very intentional way yep that actually Bend in that direction so well yeah you know and and and almost immediately you’re doing what from the compliance perspective yeah talk to the team about it they’re really excited I mean wow the team sees it you know when when you can when you can pull up a report and go well this therapist should not be working with people in this demographic and we should be putting them with this person now your therapists are going yeah it makes sense yeah you know you have a a therapist who’s a hardcore 12-step person and you have somebody just looking to get their life back under control and and and and you’re also you know you’re you’re in those kinds of situations all the time where there’s going to be some some clashing and you’re not going to have the right outcome that you want you know so being able to ass those things um I I think are really important and yeah and and and the other thing too I mean look you sounds like you guys are right at the front end of things I’m seeing a lot of interest in the psychedelics and um you know an MDMA and ketamine treatment especially here in Colorado yeah oh I I’m so excited I’ve actually had some conversations with another organization out here who’s doing this cool and we’re going to um uh we’re to get together and start creating regulation around it because we want to keep people from we want to keep people from having a negative experience and and because there’s there’s amazing results that people are having with so much of this new kind of treatment modality and if it if it gets messed up because people are doing it wrong it just creates a black black eyy on the whole thing so I I love I I I heard that you guys are are doing that I’d love to hear more about it most certainly yeah we’re looking to my brother was heading that up a little bit he was part of the plant-based Consortium and was integrated with those folks and so we definitely want to launch that in 2025 but we want to work with people like yourself that are on the front end creating some standardization you know for the process and what it looks like and we want to really align ourselves with those bodies so that we can carry out our mission and vision appropriately and so we’re going to have to put our heads together on that because I I was actually signed up for an iasa retreat in February that I didn’t get to go to but I’ve had some experience with psilocybin from a mental health perspective and for a moment you know I get to be objective with my experience that seems just about impossible in this human body and when I can be objective with my Human Experience I can begin to view it and just view it in a way yeah and not latch into it and connect with it and let the train go down the road but I can be this observer in this holistic way and I can begin to see things and that’s what I love about the plants is they just tell such an honest truth and it can take you right into where you need to be and then we get to kind of explore that and I’m really excited because I’ve sat in front of so many people I don’t call it like necessarily treatment resistant it’s more like trauma resilient if you will right well it’s just a different there are different everybody’s different you know and and yeah definitely I’m not into the labels but but it it helps certain people and certain people that are having a hard time with just doing things you know the certain ways that normal people even do if you’ve sat in somebody front of you that’s clinically depressed um you would see why a tool like MDMA might be able to show them what is potentially possible and create I was sitting with a guy the other day after 10 years of recovery had an opportunity to do some sealess iban and then some integration with some MDMA and he said it changed my life forever I’m going get a little vulnerable with you here um so my mom died when I was 21 years old and and I’m 45 now I could not talk about my mom’s death without crying for the till I was 44 and a half right um last year I did a uh a s sbin trip cool and um my wife and I did it together and hopefully I’m not you know saying anything inappropriate I but we did it together you know we we set the itions we we really tried to do it right and um it changed like I feel different I felt different I can speak about my mom I can speak about how much I loved her how much she loved me you know all of those pieces that I had a like the fact that I can have a conversation with you without getting choked up about it really like 20-some years of all of that and you know one episode changed the the whole thing for me wow and I I I really we uh I talked with this other organization about trying um MDMA out here um hasn’t happened yet uh I heard some a friend of mine yesterday was telling me about iasa that that he had an experience with out here with one of the centers and yeah life changing there are so and this isn’t new right you know that’s the that’s you know a piece of it right it’s not new thousands and thousands of years people have been doing this it’s it’s just that we’re finally getting a more accepting of the possibilities that maybe we don’t know everything right and these in these differently than when we were told in the 70s it’s like these tools can be utilized with reverence and respect and can create catechism growth and change and connection you know I think about you know you you talked about your mom you know my dad passed last August as 62 years old so young guy probably not as young as your mom was but a young guy and I think about my dad his whole life disconnected from a mental health perspective and at the same time the strongest guy I knew but all he had was one tool was a hammer in the world was a nail yep and I think that was his demise and unfortunately he was never willing because he was built in a generation where you work and so he was never will willing to let go of work to go do this thing for 30 or 45 days so he never experienced healing so now in this generation with these tools that we have my dad actually doesn’t have to do that he could have had an experience and so I’m so grateful that we’re going to be able to move forward and help people like my dad from a generation that will most certainly and often times never check into a 45-day program but we can go up to Denver and we can meet with uh psychologist or a psychophysiologist who is doing these things and we can do a day of psilocybin and then the next day we can go in and do integration and to your point I haven’t heard one person that’s done it in a clinical setting with reverence or even in an individual setting with reverence who hasn’t said something like you said change my life yeah I mean that’s that’s what we’re looking for that’s hope and so I’m really grateful that we were able to connect Mike I think we’re going to have a lot of really great conversations I look forward to working with you gaining Insight from you and maybe in in time bringing you a part of this great team that we have here at Peaks recovery look no matter whether whether we work together on you know and you’re using our software or you’re not or whatever that like to me that’s not the point you know my I like our mission is to help the people who help people you know not everybody is a uh is able to be client facing for sure right but we all do our part and anybody who’s looking to do the right thing I I want to work with those people in one way or another whether it’s just you know cheering them on but there’s there’s always just people that are bringing new ideas and hope to to just the future of this is he’s awesome and it’s great to meet you I’m excited anybody TJ introduces me to check it out yeah absolutely that’s awesome I appreciate you coming on we’ll have you on again looking forward to working with you spreading the positive news that compliance can be fun everyone so check them out we are with hatch compliance check them out online what is the website hatch compliance.com easy it’s not one of those like Peaks recovery centers of chic State university.com it’s like oh man that’s a long one you know and and you know if if for people who are not just um who who may not feel the need to to look into a compliant software um we have a podcast as well and um our podcast is all and and I definitely want to bring you on okay the podcast is called hatching creativity cool you can get it anywhere where you get podcasts we also have all on YouTube okay um on the the podcast is all about speaking with people who have dealt with different challenges and how they overcame them or people who help people overcome challenges so I have attorneys who are talking about how to avoid problems with employment law and you’ve got attorneys who deal with billing or you have you know just Senators on there talking about how to reach out to your public policy people so that you can make a change you know different things like that so these are all really you know just just tools um I I do a a video once a week on a thought for the week and how to improve yourself and it’s on L that I do once a week and I’m pop it up and it’s funny it’s a gra it’s it’s our gratitude video I call it right so talk about something I’m grateful for and just some some idea you know personal growth kind of idea and for what it’s worth the thought of gratit ude is like when you can just think of something to be grateful for no matter what your day is like or how shitty you feel if you can find something to be grateful for like every day it’s it’s really awesome so yeah I love that I don’t do it um with the podcast but I do it more on my personal so I get up Instagram every morning I go for about 5:00 a.m. in the darkk I go for a jog and then I work out and then I meditate I meditate work out then jog um and go through this and I just pop up on my Instagram I only have like 280 followers you know and every follower that I have I know personally so that’s the that’s the exchange rate and really it is it’s more for myself um but I put it out there and it seems to be helpful for other people but make a video I make a video on Instagram 5 days a week I’m going to follow you I just get on I say hey I go happy freaking zoom zoom for Tuesday and then I start there and I so I hope everybody is taking advantage of the opportunity to put one foot in front of the other today I looked at the weather before I got on suns out buns out make sure you get your vitamin C today when I was out on my run I was listening to an audio book and it was the the courage to be disliked and what I’ve learned throughout this book and this audio book today is that I suffered with inferiority because I was raised to be competitive with anything and everyone and it created a disconnection in my life that I couldn’t see clearly and created a lack of opportunity to have the courage to make changes necessary but I see that so clearly today I’m so great little things like that and then I just sign off and that’s it that’s that’s it sounds very similar to to my to my videos although I just do them once a week okay cool but yeah that’s I I definitely want to check that out I got I got to find ITW yeah we’ll find each other well I appreciate it Mike have a good one sir appreciate it man yeah that was [Music]
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Episode 115Deconstructing Stress Medicine with Dr. Van Anrooy & Kayli MeyersWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/XhbFup_tNt8Listen NowDescriptionIn this Episode, Chris Burns brings on two incredible professionals, Dr. Sarah Van Anrooy and Kayli Meyers from the Center for Stress Medicine, to share their professional insights and forward-thinking approach to client care. From conversations on gene testing and epigenetic to the impact of COVID-19 on self-care and how to harness stress, this episode offers a plethora of valuable information. For more on Dr. Van Anrooy or Kayli, check out www.centerforstressmed.com

Talking Points1. Meet Dr. Van Anrooy and Kayli Meyers (0:15) 2. What is gene testing? (1:15) 3. Expectations for the process (4:40) 4. Covid-19 impact on self-care (12:00) 5. Is stress important? (14:55) 6. Debunking myths (20:50) 7. Kayli’s story (23:55) 8. Dr. Van Anrooy’s story (25:35) 9. Epigenetics (30:25) 10. Final Thoughts (42:00) 11. Find the Center for Stress Medicine (44:46) Quotes

“I do think that is something good that came out of COVID that we actually talk about. People understand more that how you take care of yourself impacts not just your physical health but also your emotional health.” – Kayli Meyers, the Center for Stress Medicine

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -115- Transcripts[Music] hey everybody welcome to another episode of Finding Peaks I am here with two amazing professionals but even better humans you know what time it is we have Dr Sarah van anroy on the show thank you for joining us Dr vanroy you got it Dr Van anroy is an integrated medicine and psychiatric physician she’s also American Board of integr medicine Diplomat she’s also American board integrated in holistic medicine American Board of Psychiatry and neurology MH yeah well well yep it’s all under one board all under one board one brain one board and then we have Kaye Myers here with national board certified health and wellness coach and a certified cotus they have both been working together for the last 10 years up in Castle Rock and like awesome well thank you guys so much for coming on the show I’ve been talking a lot about with the team who I’m bringing on this week and everybody’s really really excited and us here at Peaks recovery are looking for trusted and valuable um sources people that we can refer to in the community after our Primary Care setting and you all are about to found find out why we want to work with these folks so badly so let’s just get right into it some of the things that you guys do that really really are progressive and I think Cutting Edge is this genom mind testing what is gene testing and why aren’t more people doing it I I see a lot of providers kind of throwing medications rinse wash should repeat I watch folks com on multiple medications and then they transition and so it just seems like a really arduous and intense process to walk through but as we were speaking earlier maybe we don’t have to walk through it in that way MH yeah yeah it’s uh makes my job much easier not easy but but easier so I started doing genetic um profiles back in about 2011 I think it was B minute it’s probably longer yeah and have reviewed probably between two to three thousand patients wow um and you know what Gene testing does uh genes are you know our template as far as that really helps you know shape our health shape our brain shape our behavior um but jeans are not necessarily Destiny um so genetic testing is very important um data very very valuable um I would say probably as a prescriber one of the most important pieces of data but it’s only one piece of data uh we put it together also with biomarkers um like with lab work you know clinical interview history all the other good stuff and pull it all together to you know help our clients better understand what helps their brain to really perform well do well and what might kind of jun things up a little bit you mentioned something when we spoke last you said that you eventually won’t even prescribe medication right I’ve done this text yeah well in particular the more Dangerous Ones um anti-depressant so oh I’ve been practicing medicine almost 40 years now and back in the old days it was um yeah it was experimental be like okay you know this is what we think’s going on based on the syndrome all list of symptoms so we try medicine um if it didn’t work we’re like oops um go down another pathway another pathway uh it just took such a long time and there were you know unfortunately a number of times we ended up making our patients worse and um yeah and then um I got into before genetics got into functional brain Imaging which is a whole another technology that is really really cool to be able to really look at metabolically the different patterns and then when genetic testing came along it’s like you put it all together and you know why experiment you you know there’s still trial in eror with the genetic testing but I’m able to get to the effective solution so much faster and with a lot less risk and like warning sight and still go down that road right how is this how is this seen and heard within the clinic that you guys go to I I mean I was just in intensive outp group yesterday and supporting some of our clinical team and I was sitting with a a young lady who would just switch medications and it’s like the story of my career where I watch these people just fighting everything they had and you can tell the medication isn’t settling then it’s exagerating it’s intensifying their experience how has this been received um in the 10 years that you’ve been working with Dr B enroy and what do you love about this process that you’re engaged with caring I I I definitely think patients receive it it depends on the patient obviously some of them don’t know exactly what genetics is so it takes a little bit of education but but would we can say this is your kind of owner’s manual for your brain this is what we know to be true about your genetics it’s not your destiny doesn’t mean this is exactly how your brain’s going to respond to medications said there’s still a little bit of trial and error but it helps them to feel a little bit more understood and validated I think in what they’re experiencing especially I would think a lot of our bipolar patients I think is the big one one where we can be like you know what your brain is this more like a ferar than a Honda that’s okay you so we can we can help them not only with medications but also a lifestyle like how does it your brain respond to too much light too much overstimulation no exercise bad nutrition what are those things due to your brain specifically and how can we kind of adjust and make it so that it works the the best yeah that’s brilliant I would imagine that you know some people and I mean most all people brains react differently to whether it’s light exercise sometimes we see I think I tell myself a story of like well Joey seems to be doing fine he doesn’t get any light on his in front of the other but just a different human it’s a different Jil yeah yeah yeah that’s really cool and I I love the opportunity for people to come in and sit with you all and when you said that it almost brought a tear to my eye because I remember being 11 or 12 years old the school counselor said to me what’s wrong with you yeah you know this is the thing that we did back in the night we as wrong instead of what happened or see something like you know look Chris your brain’s a little bit like a Ferrari and then Honda like that sounds fun that me I love the way you guys are creating this manual for your brain and it’s specific to the individual right right yes yeah and like haly you know saying especially I did some extra training in um bipolar U mini fellowship at the University of Colorado and so that’s really one of our big passions is the gift to bipolar you know like Kay’s saying like the Ferrari you know bipolar brains might be a lot more sensitive to lack of sleep poor nutrition substances but man when they’re taken care of it’s like they can’t outperform about anything on the road so I love that too and a lot of that W stuff isn’t isn’t talked about especially in some of these community- based resources that we walk where we just say kind of more of this and more of that without really having empathy or Compassion or insight into what people are struggling with yeah you know and we talked about it before the show is with respect to addiction specifically and how we get told certain things and those things seem to be mired at the foundation of our recovering it’s tough to break out so I almost look at you all as like truth tellers yeah you know when as mate says but people are confronted with the truth that’s when change can begin to happen beautiful it’s a r really cool per so something on your website that really blew me away you know you don’t see a lot of psychiatrist um doctors in general say simple fun F and the website really read if you want check it out I mean it’s brightful there’s colorful food on there awesome heets so what how do you make it simple fun and effective do you want a stalker uh sure yeah we so definitely the effective part we we have down um we have a good process it’s very streamlined the genine definitely helps toig simple is a little bit more I think organic depending on the person you know some people like tons of Ed education and some people do not so definitely trying to make it simple for them so that it’s sustainable so that it’s easier for them to apply to their life um and then giving them as much education and as many tools as they want and can handle uh cuz sometimes people think simple is like just this is your only option we’re going to do this it’s easier um but that’s not me necessarily how we do things um and then fun is again it’s sustainable right if it’s not something you’re enjoying something that you want to do and something you feel benefit from um then you’re not going to continue with it so definitely that’s I think where coaching comes in a lot too is you know I a big the believer and don’t put the work in working out we don’t have to go to the gym 5 days a week to get exercise go for a walk you you can go swimming like it can be different things so really trying to find the way to make it fun for patients so that they continue with it and they enjoy what they’re doing and enjoy coming in and talking to us and right yeah it makes our our life more fun too let’s burn out that way absolutely yeah yeah that’s that’s really really cool and I I mean as you’re talking about the clinic and talking about what you all do I’m thinking where was this 15 years ago why wasn’t I a part of great where we are now quite literally office we’re hiding we low keeping it lowy keeping it low key yeah you w roughl any feathers in that model I love it what do you think it was that was so difficult 15 years ago to talk about things like this a lot of it you know changes hard you know change is hard for us as individuals um as families as communities uh so in our healthc Care Community I feel um change has been difficult um and you know in Psychiatry maybe and neurology as well um I think change sometimes is a little tougher you know it’s a bit more of a paradigm shift sure you know way back um when I got out of training um was when manage care started hitting so I actually experienced medicine before managed care and with the onset of Managed Care psychiatria got carved out um and so handled differently um really started shaping how we practice psychiatry and um I just feel like over the years it’s been more difficult you know in Psychiatry to embrace change how do we get educated and learn these tools um when Insurance wasn’t covering it yet you know now insurance is you know Medicare Medicaid um pretty much all commercial insurance covers the genetic panel we do but it’s complicated you know it’s even you know it and it’s getting more complicated uh because they keep add variations so then clinicians have to catch up you know so now it’s covered but how do we educate you know clinicians on how to use uh the panel so part of what um my job is at the clinic is to try to take all this really complex information from the genetic panel and try to condense it down into bullet points and where a primary care dog can just you know scan through it in a couple minutes kind of get a baser road map of yeah go there don’t go there uh you’re more likely to have success here you know this is where you want to watch the dosing interactions but um but changes hard you know changes hard so and do you think that that is something good that came out of Co that we’ve actually talked about that people are understanding more that how you take care of yourself impacts not just your physical health but your emotional health so I think really like the olation impact of Co and not being able to go out to eat be so go to the gym or do those things I think people really started to notice how that actually impacted their mental health as well so I think I know there wasn’t a lot of good that came out of with it but I do think that that was a little bit of a shift that happened and we noticed that people were embracing that right or cuz they were confronted with that truth and then I think as patients getting believing that more is kind of driving clinicians to do that to to really good yeah consumer driven so yeah and you’re you’re so right cuz I I used to say in the pandemic you know there’s a lot of people that came into our program it raised the bottom for a lot of people um and it didn’t force them but helped them see the light or the opportunity in front of them and with the medical model you said it well I think like a paradigm ship it really is a paradine ship because I think for so many years the medical model just was is and was what it was there was in the business for repeat business yeah and I think we’re starting to learn that we don’t actually have to do that and people can heal yes and they can move through some of these issues through some really um insightful and well-rounded therapeutic opportunities it’s really really cool to begin to see this and to that shift is so big cuz the medical model is so large I call it the Titanic turn around it really is then you have generationally oh yeah docs that are and other docs that are more Progressive kind of all of that St managing that and deal with that having a clear concise story that doesn’t point at anybody be wrong or right just where you’re at is is really really cool to be a part of and see yeah it’s really cool how does how does one now you guys are really big into stress testing right oh well depends on what you mean by that but well stress the yeah okay what what I what I was always in my ear recovery at least the first 10 years I’m like lower stress lower stress lower stress so I’m trying to and we a lower stress and then I have this Aura ring on you’re dig great yeah and now I’m like I’m actually feeling good when I get stressed and when I’m ulate so is yeah why do we have stress why is it important and is it is it all bad yeah not not at all you know um way back in the 1970s the research on stress um really highlighted the importance and the value of stress um that we need the stimulation and the challenge you know mentally and physically in order to keep our brains healthy to keep our immune system working well um the problem that we see so persistently is either people desperately trying to stress entirely um or the um persistent stress that we don’t uh our clients not getting rest restore reconnect and then meet the challenge of the stress the next day so so that’s a lot of what we try to educate is the both the value of stress but also the importance of the rest digest reconnect restore yeah that I kind of talk to people about is that your brain is an organ just like the rest of your organs now if you want to be an athlete you have to stress your body and want to perform so if you want your lungs to be stronger you have to stress them in order to be stronger your muscles your muscles to be stronger your heart to be stronger all of these things they have to go through stress right you have to tear the muscles to build the muscles and so your brain works the same way if you wanted to be stronger if you want it to work well efficiently it has to be exposed to stress but just like the rest of your organs it also has to rest and it also has to recuperate so if you’re not you know if you’re go go go all day you lay down to go to sleep and you she had sleep they F cuz you never recover do your brain D stress so you have to recover you have to ground so I mean something every day to deal with stress and then having you know things like breathing exercises to use in the moment when you’re above your threshold and practicing them when you’re not under stress um just like athletes do for plays you know you have to learn the play before you can play in the game so it’sing doing those breathing exercises before you’re under stress so that you can bring yourself down in the moment and you’re not like you said chronically building and building and building too much stress and not able to recover it’s a fantastic metaphor yeah yeah it’s a really good see actually speaks to me as an individual so 3 weeks ago I stepped back in for the first time in 5 years as our chief executive officer I was out president and found during it LO and grass I actually shied away from it I said that can’t be in my inbox I would just clear my inbox yeah without looking without looking do the BL my pant pant consultant be like I just love how you do that I’m like what delting if somebody wants to get a hold of me they know how to get but I I actually shied away from it and over the last few weeks I’ve been in and quite frankly I’ve been watching my AA ring go up and down I’ve actually felt better I’ve felt sharper I’ve felt more atude felt stronger mentally physically spiritually and emotionally and one would think working 60 hour weeks weeks that that would be different but I’m watching a stress Arc I’m watching it settle and I’m watch and I’m able to regulate which has been a really really Co got the daily rhythm going yeah and there’s so many TS we have now that monitor that AG with that see really right where you’re at like this has actually really brought me to a point where things have to be data driven it’s really important exactly I want to see Improvement yeah exactly well something else that I really loved and I could tell that you all work really well together and this is rare for me a lot of the psychiatrists that I’ve worked with in the past will have an assistant upfront and they just kind to do everything they are the Ed doll beond for Allin Client Services care Insight opportunities what I really love about what you all do is Dr V enro found it necessary to create somewhat of a multi-disciplinary team that works with individuals and lean into the strengths Kaye and Dr Van en and some of the other team members what have you found Dr Van Eno um why did you create a multidisciplinary team uh it’s a lot more fun it’s a lot more fun yeah there there’s a certain um when you get the right um people on your team in the right energy going there’s just a real Synergy you and to me it really um feeds me you know reduces the burnout when we can work with teams move and interact with our clients and not just be in our uh little boxes in our offices oneon-one and then every member of the team brings you know such a unique perspective you know and gift so yeah and then under the um American Board of integrated medicine um the model that we aspire to is is under their uh leadership you to have physician midlevel like a PA or nurse practitioner health and wellness coach medical assistant and then um collaborating with a lot of community providers therapists uh acupunctur massage therapists personal trainers physical therapists primary care I love that that in of itself is a paradigm shift yeah you know really integrate all of that information being openminded to it you have a tremendous amount of accolades and success and research and education and to have that humility As you move through patient care I think provides the opportunity for the best patient care oh that’s really really cool yeah I love that one of the questions that i’ had just since you said you know they been doing this nearly 40 years yeah what has been some of the biggest shifts what what did you believe 20 years ago that you have dumps today oh that’d be a tough one um perhaps that um 20 years ago I didn’t think we’d ever um as a country in healthc care system Embrace uh holistic health integrated medicine and give it the respect you know which is incred because it works it works and so um just it’s so exciting to see you know communities of healthc care providers uh patients really shifting away from the old model in um more into empowering Pati with information like you know the Home Technology tools and we’re just getting started in that industry you know being able to empower our patients with information um I yeah I didn’t think we would be able to do what we can do now you know like sleep studies I have a background in sleep medicine too and to be able to have patients do their own sleep studies more than just one night and being able to play around and see how you know what time to eat whether they have alcohol you know all those different things they see directly how it impacts their Sleep Quality and so it’s so cool yeah sometimes we don’t want to see what [Music] like CD packs of yeah just our inner competitiveness how about you said there when I first started in the field 15 years ago 15 short years ago um yeah I was working in a place called decision Point Center and there was an eternal medicine dog his name was Dr Jared and anytime a client was referred over to Dr Jared people would say no okay yeah he’s going to give you this he’s going to give you a supplement it’s not good what you really hate is to go see Dr Kyle cuz Dr Kyle DMD the psychiatrist and he knew even the medications to help you through I have to imagine if I were to go back into the community right now Dr Jared is probably booked through Ruben yeah but it was a lot of this and I was part of it saying bu what is this ter medicine stop right you know and so I love that you we beginning to move in a direction and I’m even seeing some oldtime dogs go you got to go see Dr Van I don’t I think she can help people are being becoming a little bit more open-minded because they think they’re seeing the results of some of this new opportuni which is really really nice yeah I think we’ve definitely seen that in our community doctors too very much didn’t always believe in what you did now and doing that’s the best part that’s ridiculous care about that now they’re doing it yes M doesn’t matter it’s like now we know really does yeah absolutely I I’d really love to learn about for you Kaye what was it that made you want to get into this field why did you want to become a wellness coach like what what is your why kind of that passion driven part of yourself because you can tell just sitting down like you love what you do yeah um so I went into nutrition originally so that’s what I have a degree in because I have always believed what we put into our body directly affects what we get out of it um I grew up as an athlete I studied animal nutrition as well so I always believed that but when I was getting my degree in nutrition I was really focused on hospital care um and kind of what you do when a patient’s in the hospital like well how do we prevent them from getting in the hospital at the first place or how do we treat disease with food so that’s how I got into coaching um versus just nutrition so that’s why I kind of branched into the LIF style um aspect of it um I’m really passionate about meeting people where they’re at you having empathy and compassion for them there and accept you where they’re at but not you know having the compassion and the belief in them to empower them to not stay there you know to help them be who they can and to move away from that space you know we all start in different places different stages and you know meting people where they’re at and helping them to grow from it by accepting them and empowering them through it it’s a big a big passion of mine it’s cool isn’t it so nice to watch somebody I mean one of the greatest gifts in my career is to watch someone come in soulen disconnected depressed and then couple months later they go yeah to do this for it’s just like we best job yeah it’s like before and after pictures it’s wonderful we love that yeah very very domestic it’s a privilege yeah why did you didn’t to the that oh wow just you know a passion for healing you know really a passion for healing and you know and and some of it just you know through my own Journey as well as family members um when we don’t have our health you know it’s really hard to have um much to look forward to you know when we don’t have our brain health it really hijacks our life you know so just being able to have the privilege of you know guiding people and being with them on their journey and and watching the transformation it’s it’s an incredible privilege yeah to be able to hold space in those rooms yeah for who I would consider the most courageous people oh yeah I’ve ever had the chance to meet yes I know the world sometimes I think has a different view of that yeah necessary you’re going into these groups and these individualized opportunities and individualized me as smoothies with clients I did was just doing that yesterday and I just I can’t help but to tell them like you are such a bright light you have greatest inside of you right there we just need to figure out a path to access it right and when people learn that the resources with them gives them chills it’s like you yeah they go oh my gosh so that’s one of the last things I want to touch on we touched on it before the show is you know 15 years ago I got clean and sober after my third impatient treatment program I went into this amazing impatient treatment program at C Wood Day 2 saw back then it was Mom and Pop owned it was an amazing program we went through things like grief week identity and purpose EMDR shame and pain relating years’s personal history was wonderful but when I went to check out of the program he said my case manager said all of that’s nice and dandy but here’s a yellow piece of paper you need to go to 90 and 90 or you’re going to die because you actually have a disease and you have allergy and it’s like a hamster wheel if you refer to the doctor’s opinions yeah in the big book of alcoholic synonymous it says that I can never safely ingest substances again because I am different than my fellows what I heard in that moment was I’ll never heal I’ll never have the opportunity and I was often times referred to as a cancer patient going to get his chemo and so Alcoholics Anonymous for my cancer that I had was the Kemo but I just couldn’t sit well and it doesn’t sit well with me today to say that so I’m going to continue to struggle liveed less than average quality of life and I have to go get this medicine every day um I’ve learned over the last handful of years through amazing professionals like you all and great programs that Foster healing that maybe isn’t the case uh me Pati is going to remission right ex I didn’t hear about the remission part they didn’t they but I mean even cancer patients are cancer free at some point you were talking about yesterday is kind of telling patients you’re not your anxiety you’re not your have those things but it’s not one thing it’s impacted by so many different Avenues and you may never you may never not have anxiety like anex may always have that underlying addiction but that doesn’t mean you have to accept that that’s your story that’s your truth right exactly there’s other factors that play that make it worse and make it better and there’s a way on it with it or without it if you choose to so I mean I then that’s part of empowering people and meeting him wherever they’re at you know yeah and that’s that’s part of what I love about the whole you know paradigm shift away from mental illness and L you know there’s some need and value to that but really it’s shifting that to brain health and healing you know and again really understanding our own brain and body what helps us to perform well what gets in the way um and how do we promote lifelong healing um the way I like to look at um 12-step communities because I’m a huge supporter of it but their communities just like going to church or you know don’t go to church because they have a disease right you know it’s it’s a community of authenticity and healing and the me to recovery that and we’re all in this together you know so being able to find our community you know um a fellow people along the path who want to heal who want to be real um and cannot yeah yeah I think that’s so or we also touched on just in regardless to the same question of like what are we born with on the side you know some people assume my dad had addiction I don’t know to your point earlier I don’t know if it’s that simple right right yeah well yeah so part of what we talk a lot about and what we really get excited about is the whole epigenetics and so epigenetics is a part of genetic medicine and epigenetics is the um things that influence what genes get turned on and which ones don’t so a lot of what we talk about again genes AR in Destiny so so much of what we do with the blood work with the supplements with um healthier relationships deeper more restored to sleep is really uh helping to power up people’s epigenetics so they keep their healthy genes turned on or turn them back on there’s a way to do that oh yeah yeah and turn off or yeah we even do preventative we’ve done genetics in as young as one-year-old wow so our patient range goes from age one to currently 100 so of this patient 100 and should be 101 um yeah but being able to part of what helps the little ones with prevention it’s when there’s a family concern of oh my goodness like you’re saying we’ve got addictions we got you know bipolar we’ve got add in the family and if parents get too um anxious about it it almost can manifest and so by doing the genetics um we can say okay these are the risk factors your kiddo did and didn’t get now us work on preventing them the unhealthy genes from being expressed and how can we help you to see some of the gift inness and um benefit and value to some of these je as well yeah yeah that predisposition to disease isn’t yeah it doesn’t diagnosing with the disease hopefully it a genetic for diabetes but it’s because you got diabetes yeah might as well eat sugar yeah yeah exactly and I did for both my kids first birthdays I did the genine on them happy
birthday I’m going to take my kids right up in the nexts do this test in that would be so cool we do a lot of family and it’s a parot it’s really nice because there are times where both of my kids are more genetically lean towards their dad versus me so some stuff just sets them off where like they’re over stimulated it’s too much but it doesn’t make sense to me cuz I don’t have you have a different bra and I’m like what is going on why are the freaking dad now yeah being p and it so it just helps right to have that right you know like it’s cluttered in here there’s two different sounds going on they have using in the TV it’s all too much like we need to I get it right I see you like it’s not like what’s wrong with you like you said before like it’s okay I understand why this why your brain is racked in this way this is how we kind of redirect this is how we fix it you know so we can make you more comfortable and make it easier for us to all coexists that’s a wonderful explanation by both of you so basically what we’re saying is not necessarily born with these things but we have genic indicators that could predetermine or expose us if not if life not lived well not having us in there’s also things right away if we do it for a one-year-old that we can get in front of understand that vitamin D is Gooding is good blue light for the individual might be so there be things that are contraindicated right away absolutely including some medications you know anti-depressants you are a big one you know the risk factors with um tricyclic anti-depressants especially but also you know the common serotonin based ones they can aggravate genes yeah genes that might not have been expressed before um then they get flared up so we can prevent that now I I love that you can kind of get in in the middle of it really form quality of life factors to counterbalance some of that Gene or potential mutations of those jeans right right that’s pretty cool yeah yeah I love that lot everybody who has a kid needs to get some genom Minds has because it it really creates kind of like a road map and and it’s not the Ed all be all is what I’ve hear you say yeah but it can give us a ton of information absolutely to kind of work from absolutely yeah I think that’s so awesome you know I really want to do I remember when jamine testing came out mhm years ago was it 20086 yeah I think it was random first time in this is like way way ahead of schedule yeah do you guys have any stories with respect to you know I I can go through a Rolodex M person did this on this but is there any stories that have come through the clinic that are just near and dear to your heart stories of healing hope and change that you want to share with de viewers I think it’s really important for people to understand and know that like their story can fit inside this conversation yeah and they too have at this table and this opportunity regardless of what my past has told me specifically throughout my generational and more formidable years right right yeah I think I mean we have a lot of we have so many going through my Rolodex to kind of I you know we had a lot come through really over stimulated co uh because I mean there was just so much isolation and fear screen time yeah screen lots of kids on screen yeah I was SP War so I know like one in particular I’m thinking of came in really over stimulated um just wired to the wall um super stressed at work not in a very healthy relationship that was not very supportive to their lifestyle but also to their health um lots of drugs were involved lots of alcohol was involved um a really skewed view of their body Custom Body just more sure I would say um and really stepped into it I mean they came through the door and they were like okay let’s do it like let’s do the Jeep testing let’s do the blood work they do the blood work every three months on the dock taking b m stuff and they fall off every now and then oh I forgot to take all my sule and for like 3 weeks so like it’s all right we just get back on yeah no and definitely has found ways to cope with the stress of their job cuz I didn’t go away and they love their job so really is fun ways to cope with that and deal with it on a regular basis so it does that make come too much and knowing what medications work and what do the importance of sleep was I mean and now they’re done driving got out of the bad relationship really embracing friendships that are healthy know rely Less on drugs Less on you know people who are just really denting to their you know lifestyle and what they need so I mean I think that’s probably been my most recent patient who really do in and really embraced exercise sleep Stress Management medication reducing substances that are harmful all those different things right right and they were on board right from right from the starting game that
fun yes yeah the case I was thinking of um Bob that we met you know talked about yesterday he’s kind of on the other end um older gentleman who go he’s been coming to see me for a really long time um um successful attorney and took so long um you know just sitting in the what would you call precontemplative stage contemplative um really didn’t believe you know you how how important is the vitamin right you know and um seeing him evolve and bringing in the trauma piece you know being able to kind of um help him find the right therapist and then just over time in patients you know working with kayy getting educated planting seeds but uh change didn’t happen and then once everything just click for him it’s like seeing him now it’s like oh my yeah it’s so C and it’s like yeah his blood work looks probably better than mine yeah he’s he’s consistently feeling empowered and his marriage is healthier it’s just you know it’s like it all came together for him at the perfect time so there’s a lot of seed planting cuz sometimes um it can be easy to get for me anyway to get impatient and it’s kind of like oh I want to see change because it’s so cool when you know patients like the one Kaye describes where they come in they’re they’re ready they’re sick and tired being sick and tired and they’re ready to make the changes um yeah but those others were we just over time yeah keep saying same thing gentle encouragement it’s so cool how that the the people when you get to work with you all get to work you know when you when you talked about Bob I thought to myself my own story kind of in regards to Gabor M’s new book uh the noral yes and the myth of normal so often in our country in the United States is like you American dream is built with connectedness had submit the normal because if you were to put my speak for myself you put my resume on the street in 2016 I’m an aene normous CEO at company we built over you know 5 years of it’s blown up yeah but if you really knew my story you would know that my wife and I are disconnected as ever my kids are one and 2 years old like who are you but I go into the office and everybody’s like yeah recovery see yeah that why my world is falling apart in the background I also just want to bring that up as just an opportunity for people that you’re experiencing that because as a kid growing up in a lower C economic situation I believed wholeheartedly if I could get to the top of Pike’s Peak where the pot of gold was oh what I learned in the process wasy up there yeah and all of my friends and family were down on the ridge right and today because of healing uh through opportunities like you all are talking about I can see myself in a simplistic form on the Ridge and being like go get that pot of gold if you want it you can have it the pot of gold is nothing but a tool that’s not a gold want a left C it’s not all I know I know yeah and that you know we work with a fair number of I would say pretty you know upper middle upper class um and there’s a lot of that like they just drive themselves so hard and they have the American dream everything looks perfect but they they have this emptiness you know um and yeah they’ve got the money in the lifestyle which again is an amazing tool but if we make that our our goal and our sense of purpose and meaning so pretty over yeah with that experience I’ve ever turned on the TV as a kid I’m like war is better I know well every commercial that comes on bye bye bye is if you look like this then you’ll be happy you know you suicide read the fluid family systems is more than doubled out of the soci yeah that doesn’t surprise me at all no it doesn’t surprise me at all well before we end today Dr right I want you to introduce the viewers to some of the research that you’ve been working on what’s going I’m really excited about this that it’s thousands yes yes so we’re sitting on basically a a whole um pile of fantastic data you know with um blood work genetic you know test results um computerized testing that we do called uh90 um that we’re looking at um partnering you know with uh companies to be able to harvest that data and be able to start publishing which would be really cool because then we can start um educating more people on the patterns we see what we see works and to be able to you know show the data behind that and the Really rapid Improvement which is still kind of mindboggling to me compared to how my practice was so many years ago how long it took for our patients to get to that point of balance and now how quickly we can get there is that’s it really really cool and we used to think well no you understand treatment a year be it’s worth time and treatment it’s actually what turns out professionals don’t see themselves professionals and and other family uh focused people don’t see themselves inside a 45-day model right you don’t have the time to do this and so when we can sit in front of an outpatient provider who’s talking about full healing they get to as I said earlier see themselves inside that story people I think really want to heal yes they want to feel better they just don’t know that there’s a path a very inal and unique path to get them there right it’s just incredible and so often they have everything they need to be happy I know yeah yeah what is um uh I didn’t have your website up there but what your website yeah w W ww um. Center foress med.com centerfor stress.com check out Dr Sarat admy as well as kayy Myers I appreciate having you all on the show today thank you so well thank you we are so excited about Peaks recovery and everything you guys are doing thank you yeah it’s really awesome well awesome you guys have a great day thank you so much thanks you too [Music] peace [Music] you

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Episode 113Survive to Thrive: With Dr. Jennifer HolcombWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/mSxoUx3kruEListen NowDescriptionChris Burns is back in the host seat this week with our fantastic guest, Dr. Jennifer Holcomb. Together, Chris and Jennifer bring attention to the connection between our heads and our hearts, shining light on the importance of intentional work on both. This episode brings to light many shared issues: associations, disconnections, breath work, and so much more. Please reach out with questions or comments, and for more information on Dr. Jenn, check out Integrative Mind and Body Wellness LLC at www.mindbodywellnessllc.com or email drjenn@mindbodywellnessllc.com

Talking Points1. Into to Dr. Jenn (0:30) 2. Connecting the mind and the body (1:30) 3. Are we born with disconnection? (5:50) 4. The Little Things (10:00) 5. The heart speaks more (14:30) 6. Associations (16:04) 7. Breath work (20:34) 8. Family work (26:05) 9. Final thoughts (34:20) Quotes

“Sometimes people need to talk, and we need to spend a bit of time processing. But once we move through that process, it always starts with the breath.”– Dr. Jennifer Holcomb

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -113- Transcriptsso when it comes to mental health and it comes to working with anybody doesn’t matter what we’re dealing with whether it’s neurodevelopmental disabilities autism ADHD or we’re talking about mental health anxiety depression what happens is we want to make sure that our physiology and our neurology working [Music] together hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Finding Peaks your host Chris Burns president and founder so grateful to be here today so grateful to be back on the show but even more excited about my guest today Dr Jennifer hul welcome to the show thank you absolutely Dr Jennifer hul works here in Colorado Springs a couple days a week as well as up in Castle Rock um she is a PhD psychophysiologist licensed marriage and family therapists as well as EMDR certified board certified Behavior analysts as well did I miss anything no okay awesome so grateful to have you on the show and I know I mentioned this earlier I had an opportunity to connect with Jen about a week ago kind of planning for for this show and whatnot and um as we were going through it I certainly and what you all see today she’s uh very well qualified educated and insightful on the topics that we’re going to discuss but bigger than all of that she’s an even better human she cares deeply about the people that she works with she believes in full healing and this opportunity that we have to walk together into recovery into full healing and so she has me really excited to have her on the show today um I want to bring up one of the first lines that’s on your website okay and you say that you’re a family therapist and you believe that healing comes or recovery comes when you connect the head or the mind and the body you talk to me a little bit about what you mean by that so when it comes to mental health and it comes to working with anybody doesn’t matter what we’re dealing with whether it’s neurodevelopmental disabilities autism ADHD or we’re talking about mental health anxiety depression what happens is we want to make sure that our physiology and our neurology working together right so the neurology side which which is kind of the neuro feedback side that I do is comprised of the brain and the spinal cord so the brain is kind of the organizer right but our physiology is our Cardiology our breathing all the sensations the sensory input everything that we have and that is so important because it’s our first kind of the first tangible I’d say kind of our anchor of what’s happening with our feelings and what’s going on right and so when people experience something for a long time psychology we thought everything was experienced with our thoughts first but now we actually know that we experience a sensation first and then a feeling and then we put a a a thought to it right and so that’s what I really work on is helping people understand how do I self-regulate how do I self manage what’s happening in my physiology so that my neurology and my physiology can work together I love love that too and um we had a therapist on a couple weeks ago mine Frey who defined trauma as the disconnection yep one from the other it is yeah and Ruth lanus she does a lot of work in Canada and um one of the some of the work that she’s doing is speaking to that disconnection as a result of what’s going on in the parietal and there is this part of the brain and I’m going to butcher what it’s called so I’m like I’m going to go there but it’s teeny teeny tiny little part right in that sub part and for people with trauma it’s often times it doesn’t work and so what’s happening physiologically doesn’t connect with Neurology what’s going on and so we have this network is a default mode Network that kicks in when we’re in kind of comp State and it’s kind of our daydreaming our chilled Zone but when we are experiencing trauma that actually turns into hypervigilance it’s a preparation for what’s going to happen so that’s why we have to work at regulating that internal system and often times incorporating some of the neuro feedback is where medication can come in for certain people right and working and kind of reintegrating the connection for the brain to process that the body is saying you’re safe and feeling that safety not just knowing it CU we can know everything right right there but but how do you feel it and so for my clients I had one in particular a long time ago we’re working together and she’s like I’m doing all the breath work and got heart math link and I’m doing everything I feel nothing I don’t understand what you’re talking about and we had done EMDR we had done all kinds of stuff and I thought okay we’re going to try this so let’s start doing some of the neuro so we did some pride all we worked on some Alpha training for her and she sat in the chair and she goes I get it this is it this is what it feels like this is why you kept telling me to breathe and she integrated and it we know she called it her noodle mode I love that she and she did she completely just phys you just watched her and it was a wonderful thing she didn’t collapse but she just relaxed settled yes oh my goodness and so that’s how the two work together so if if and that’s why working across all these different areas is so critical right because we just don’t know why someone is stuck in one particular spot and even with the trauma world we can move stuff Psych logically we can move and reconceptualize and understand things but we also have to not forget that our body holds a lot of stuff too yeah kind of like that old saying of like we need to attend to the roots instead of the tree branches right this needs to be where it started where it starts in that do you believe or is it is it your research belief that people are born with this connection and then we lose it environmentally or we’re boring with disconnection kind well I see it as I think we are born with the ability to connect yeah and I think the environment either provides opportunities to connect and to reinforce that process and so that goes back into all the attachment work right so if you have whether it’s your mom or your dad or a grandparent or somebody that is able to provide that unconditional Attunement to you that’s when you start to develop this internal self-regulatory process right other things you could have the most attentive wonderful parents but if you have ever had a ky baby my oldest was KY sorry he was call hard yeah it was super hard from 4: to 900 p.m. he screamed at the top of his lungs and it didn’t matter what we did Tony Bennett kind of helped Lee Armstrong helped a little that was about it for sure and so what happens though from a neurological central nervous system is it doesn’t you know those processes don’t kind of form and so you have to work on those things very deliberately to help Shore up what was Miss during that time does that make sense yeah know it makes total sense yeah because that’s how babies learn to self-regulate as they look at their parent and they kind of go okay this is what this means and then they learn to soothe and the rocking and all of those things yeah that’s very very interesting how that works and I love what you said there too because you said that we’re born into this world with this really innate ability to connect and we just got it’s almost like we’re born out and we have the the extension cord coming off our body and we’re like just plug Us in mom plug Us in dad right yeah yeah it’s it’s really really cool opportunity because I think or at least in my experience you know the multitude of my uh professional career probably a decade of it has been spent more on the substance use side right we deal a lot with shame on that side certainly on the mental health side as well but substance use we’ve been told you’re bad that’s bad right and move forward and so the disconnection there we have folks that come in and I was one of them who came into treatment and I remember they said group therapy yeah I said group therapy my name is Chris Burns I I hate people and they’re like you hate people and I was like yeah I’ve just actually never been really treated well by those things yeah and so yeah I’m going to have my head down I’m not checking in in group I don’t want to have anything to do with people and then I sit here today with you and I’m like oh my goodness my life is built around authentic connection and the opportunity to do just the same so I love that you have the opportunity in your work too to kind of combat and counterbalance that shame yeah um because it’s just not the truth no we’re all born to connect and and it’s just what we’re taught and how our neurology and and Physiology work together to help make that a wonderful experience or not wonderful experience right so I know for the clients I’ve worked with the substance abuse some of them had a lot of sensory stuff going on prior to even using substances as little kids so touch and contact was uncomfortable Y and that is what a l me BL you do when the baby cry is you pick up the baby right and snuggle but if that’s uncomfortable for you the way that your brain is processing that then you’re not going to like it and it’s going to become aversive and that can create the disconnect but that’s no one’s fault yeah it’s just understanding how do we how do we go about communicating our needs how do we go about understanding and then can we make some adjustments neurologically physiologically to allow us to attune and connect the way we need to but that’s individualized right there’s no right or wrong way it’s just what you need and having a partner in people around you that get it and that understand and can support inv validate yeah you you make me think of that and I brought it up on the show before but there’s a book um called what happened to you and in that book I’ll just briefly say Oprah brings on the show essentially like the great parents right and um this 12 or 13-year-old had voted her mom on there and she essentially she’s on the show she said why’ you vote your mom on the show she’s the greatest Mom ever she’s like tell us your greatest memory right and in the book she says oh it’s Cheerios and everybody’s like what this is the Oprah show you know you bring you all the way from New Jersey tell you about Cheerios right she said it’s simple I was and I’ll butcher it a little bit she is four to six years old she hears a creek someone opened a door she goes downstairs mom’s in the kitchen eating Cheerios it’s 1:00 a.m. right she’s like Mom what are you doing she said oh honey you don’t know but occasionally you know I get a little anxious or I can’t sleep I’ll come down maybe it’s once a month and I’ll just have bullet Cheerios and I’ll go back to sleep it’s just something I do she said mom you know Cheerios are my favorite you have to wake me up if you’re ever going to have Cheerios oh cool and so she goes and she says sitting there with my mom what 5 to 10 times in my entire development right meaningful moments that matter matter the most exactly right yeah and it’s feeling seen feeling heard and being present with each other that’s the attachment that’s the Attunement piece Steve fores does a lot of work the poly Bagel Theory and the importance of social connections and communication is acting as a buffer that keeps us from going into kind of a hyper hypo hyper or hypo aroused state where we either are really really anxious and distressed or we’re really really kind of depressed and sad because either way physiologically we’re being impacted right because your body can only sustain for so long and we get depleted of all the r good neurotransmitters and things but that social connection and the attachment is a buffer for either one so when you learn to embrace people you’re pulling in so much more than just a wonderful hug that just feels good you’re actually healing your body yeah right that’s a really cool way to conceptualize it yeah yeah and it’s just it’s like this wholeness and fullness of life that you know people that struggle with mental health or substances might be available to them as well yeah you know it’s really really Co yeah I I was talking to you about before the show and I’m really really passionate about this I’m I’m passionate about what the 12 steps has been able to do in our community certainly since 1935 clear through 2023 um you know anywhere you go you can catch him eting it’s awesome what I love about that more than anything and I think the 12-step program is more about this than anything they don’t talk but it’s connection and in 1935 we just called it different things but it felt good to go to a place and be seen valued and heard but as we talked about before the show I really struggled or I thought I wasn’t struggling an alcoholic synonymous from a mental health perspective I’m picking up chip after chip I’m not drinking anymore I’m not doing any of the bad things um but it wasn’t until I got some mental health treatment and some trauma-informed care that I started to see that I was capable and maybe worthy of thriving in this world instead of surviving and I had surrounded myself with people in 12-step programs for a decade who found it necess necessary to survive and shout out to them they’re some of the greatest survival experts on planet Earth and and again it wasn’t until 2019 that I started to see this a bit different but how do we get the message how do how do you reinform the message to your clients uh both individually and oftentimes generationally right that there is this opportunity for you to experience this clearing that affords and informs a quality of life that maybe you never thought you could have right and I think that’s a a big piece and that’s a question that I continuously work through with everybody because they don’t you don’t know what you don’t know exists right and so when you’re talking to people about how good it feels when you’re integrated and you’re in this place of coherence and how it affords you Clarity in thinking and it affords you an opportunity to better understand what’s happening with yourself so that you’re not blaming yourself or attacking yourself and those NE negative voices don’t Creek of me but you kind of go oh that’s what happened and that’s my body doing this and so this means I do this and I’m good to go right how refreshing that is it’s it they kind of look at you like what and you almost have to say okay trust me yeah we’re going to walk okay trust me we’re going to do this thing and that’s where I use a lot of the peripheral bio feedback so actually teaching people to use the breath and understanding the relationship between the breath and the heart and the Heart is really at the center the heart actually speaks more to the brain than the brain does to the heart H that’s really interesting so when the heart is beating in this beautiful nice rhythmic pattern right the right amdal imitates exactly what the heart’s doing within milliseconds so it’s this beautiful nice rhm and your brain says Hey life is solid we’re good that’s when we’re stressed and it’s just going really fast we’re not okay we’re not okay the brain instantly says something’s wrong hypervigilant kicks in so if you can learn to discriminate because back in the day right the amydala served its function right it kept us alive the saber tooth didn’t eat us exactly right it didn’t evolve yeah H it worked well right it did and it still does but we no longer have that saber-tooth talking to us and you know attacking us right so sometimes the threats are not obvious they’re emotional they’re verbal they’re behavioral they’re ver you know non-verbal behaviors can be kind of threatening right um words and it senses off right and so once you’re aware of like o that word safe does that thing to my heart can you not tell me that I to feel safe or because that I don’t feel that it actually makes me more anxious but that comes from understanding the physiological impact and then saying absolutely we can make that adjustment and now I can return my breathing back into a different space and then we can investigate and talk about why that’s happening without the intensity being there yeah that makes so much sense and speaks really to my recovery as well CU for years in my recovery I I never understood why the sound of a diesel engine just made me mad the smell of diesel gasoline just made me mad construction I would see construction I would just right well I had a disconnected relationship with my father who drove a truck who was in construction and is you know pulling into the driveway I would hear it I’d be like oh and I never knew I was just like I just don’t like constru I don’t like those people right and it was so far from the truth um and I had the opportunity in the pandemic to do this really cool thing there was this construction project that was going by my house and I had just started SE therapy okay sematic work so I keep working it through I go by the construction project and they’re on the outside of the project because they have to because of the co regulations and I’m thinking when I’m run I’m like screw these people here we go I’m mad you know and then 3 months later I’m walking by I’m like I’m running you know they’re out early too right just like me doing the hard thing right I’m not so bad and then then 90 more days of sem SE work I’m running by I’m like happy Tuesday everybody’s got their arm out they’re like Chris great to see you and I’m like that’s the healing but I would have lived my whole life just thinking hey I’m just not a fan of that I don’t like that you know I don’t like people but there’s this opportunity to heal the nervous system so it doesn’t trigger in the same way and I can be present where wherever you’re at exactly and these are just people showing up to their job working hard just like I do you know but it’s these associations from a sensoring base that started and Trigger that whole piece right and when we feel vulnerable anger is a lovely defense mechanism is it not right I I mean it happens to me all the time right if I feel threatened and I’m not really present as to what’s happening I might get angry or defensive because because I need to keep myself safe so it serves a function it’s just being able to kind of say wait a second M am I really under attack am I really under threat or is this something that I maybe need to work on yeah yeah yeah my wife and I have that now we have like these little code words and stuff cuz I’m like obviously you’re triggered obviously I’m triggered you know we can’t be like are you triggered right now you know so we have this awareness and we we do the therapy together which is really really nice yeah um to do that but to your point it’s like I will take sadness all day long if when I get to experience happiness you know yeah I get a little bit of SC but I get to be there for that right you know and I get to walk through that and sadness isn’t such a bad emotion sometimes and it’s actually appropriate it is and it it actually helps us create the need for connection so it takes us all the way back even like stress everybody talks about no stress stress is bad we need to combat stress it’s like well you need a little because stress actually produces oxytocin which moves us towards K action and moves towards people and then it creates that sense of feeling heard validated and attuned and it helps our whole nervous system begin to calm but if people are a threat then you don’t go towards that and you internalize and isolate right yeah that’s cool yeah I was actually just thinking on my way over here I was waiting cuz I just got an aura ring and I have to wear I have to wear it for 5 days before it starts dialing my stress and I was thinking the whole time like I get this stress down I’m going to die of cancer you know talking about where the Joe so it’s interesting you say that there and I can speak very clearly to that in like my personal recovery and others is like a little bit of stress actually kind of pick your head up a little bit right it’s moved you to change and then it’s learning to re-regulate the physiological so really that’s it’s The Chronic stages of whatever it is you’re going through that takes a toll on your neurology and your biology that’s what makes it unhealthy right and it’s recognizing there are so many wonderful things you can do to actually make make those adjustments and what everyone needs is different not everybody needs neuro feedback I really do make everyone learn to breathe cuz you kind of all need to learn how to do that matters yeah I started nose breathing in the last year when I run and when I sleep yep and the diaphragm pulling all that so you use all four chambers of the lungs we’re really pulling in that good oxygenation the balance and the pH levels and the blood and so that our oxygen can get released to all the muscles and our brain and everything I walked around um you know hyperventilating my whole life and not realizing that’s what I did I was a big chest breather you know yeah and so all my breathing was or I would hold my breath for I don’t know how I survived really don’t but when I started doing all this breath work CU everything I I do with clients I’ve done for myself right love that and so I’ve been through the gamut of all of it but I was learning kind of to reshape my breathing and I don’t breathe when I type on a computer when I cook and when I read my goodness those are long bouts of sustainable action and these like short little like sad breaths and I’m like I still wonder if it’s so tired so as I started working on the diaphragmatic breathing and just created more awareness I started to kind of go oh my gosh I had energy at the end of my day I don’t feel quite so exhausted when I walk in the door and the kids are coming and they’re asking me tons of questions cuz I haven’t been depriving myself of oxygen say for8 hours yeah so all even that subtle change just Improvement in energy is huge so if people learn that good diaphragmatic full slow and steady breath it really makes a huge shift do you when Peaks is really looking forward to kind of working with great doctors like you in the community because I don’t think that clients will get swallowed up through you in the medical model they’ll be told kind of the truth and have this opportunity to move forward but when you bring people in whether it’s out of an inpatient setting or just simply an outpatient uh situation do you start with breath yep okay yep okay and it’ll depend like you know sometimes people need to talk and we need to spend a bit of time processing but once we kind of move through that process it always starts with a breath because in between appointments especially with trauma work I will not start trauma work until I’m very confident because I work with more complex trauma right that the person feels confident in themselves self-regulating can’t do that without breathing and I wonder because I’ve been to you know four treatment programs and not a single one contracted for that I can tell you that much and so it’s really cool if you ever come to my office I’ll show you all the stuff but you can see when you know a client will because I you you’re on kind of you have a respiration belt okay and then you’re doing your breath work and I have a BB bvp sensor on your finger and what’s happening is so I’m tracking your your heart and I’m tracking your breath and so what I’ll have people do once we practice the resourcing skills and all that kind of stuff is they start to kind of recognize when they’re getting in Phase so you know I had one kiddo that came in and she was able to elicit trauma just mentally with what had happened for her so she came in she was just doing her diaphragmatic breath right so it was nice beautiful gorgeous Rhythm she felt she was like I am I’m noodle in my noodle Zone and then she went to level four and boy you just saw that cardio I mean it just I mean just completely shot up and then I said okay I’m going to have you start engaging with your breath again but I need you to pull in that Comfort emotion that you’re feeling and boy she pulled that in and it looked better with the Comfort emotion than it did in the beginning when she was just breathing and it took her probably 10 seconds to regulate her physiology and then I said okay are you ready she’s like okay went to a level 9 so s’s level 9 trauma State boy you could just see everything just tears face neck everything was red and then we held it for 3 minutes and then we moved ourselves right out of it just using the breath and then the emotions she needed to pull in so we use the mindfulness component we use the meditative component and the breath and boy she was at and within probably 3 and 1 half minutes she was at a level one again she felt safe she felt good she walked out of the office she didn’t have any issues in between appointments so that’s what I’m looking for yeah right real regulation real regulation because otherwise then the emotion kicks in and sure I can contain it and I might be able to set it aside but if I don’t physiologically also learn then it creeps back in and sometimes of the wrong time yeah right that is wonderful and I i’ imagine too cuz you know I’ve been in the treatment field for 15 years years and often times have been a part of family programs that are much different than that and really draw in intensity first and don’t talk about breath and so I think it’s it’s oftentimes synonymous with our field and Peaks is responsible for it I mean 2019 we’d have families come in we do this model we realized that it really wasn’t efficacious certainly for safety settling or client care in general but how do we how do we combat that in a way is like because a lot of traumatized individuals I’ll speak for myself I remember going into my therapist and just being like just crank it up let’s Crank It Up I’m going to go to the worst darkest spot I’ve ever been and we’re going to have a session around this and then sometimes in group therapy and past programs that I’ve been in whether it’s grief weak or a trauma intensive we don’t contract for safety we come in and we just tell all and kind of probably re exacerbate the trauma yeah you R traumatize the nervous system cuz I’m not safe and then I get out and I’m like I don’t know why I’m not settled right right right and so I think getting this message out there is is so important um for people to see that there’s this other side we actually don’t have to get into this real big intense thing right right and what that might mean for our nervous systems in general right and pulling the families in and that’s tricky mhm yeah for sure because know the child is a problem my husband’s a problem my wife is a problem if you could just fix them I wouldn’t have any more problems like well let’s go back and inevitably it comes down to the communication so we’re communicating at finances always comes up right yeah so communicating about finances and everyone goes into defense mode and it’s like time out what is your body doing where is your body at where’s your heart rhythm at where did your mind go and it’s never in the present never it’s always waiting to I know she’s going to say he’s going to say and now no one’s listened to a word anyone is said just waiting for my turn yeah so it’s like when you know you’re going to have this conversation we first need to regulate you got to get into that coherent State get into the conversation when either one is out of coherence what I call it coherence right that c state right the coherence State then you need to take a break regulate and then come back and and for after a while coupl like I’m so tired of taking breaks we just stop and kind of breathe together and kind of get back in but that’s the point right cuz I mean you know eventually you don’t want to have to like take a time out and do your breath work then come back here hold this hold the hold thing yeah all right regulated what we got I’m going to breathe now okay I’m good you want it to be happening as you’re talking but there’s trust that starts to form because now you can see that your partner actually is connecting with you and they’re seeing that you’re distressed right and they care enough to say let’s take them INE now I feel sane exactly now I feel safe yeah right yeah yeah that’s really really cool I love that do you find or or should I say when you meet with individuals and you’re a family therapist you know that there’s going to be this family involvement how do you get what is the best way or the way that you see best to get families involved in this process to not not shame on them but we can be a part of this authentic process that really affords us healing and connection but we have to be in the middle of it it’s been one of the most contentious conversations I’ve had in my career and I’m still trying to figure out ways to have that conversation better yeah you know and I I think for the most part um fortunately the families that I have worked with I have had pretty good success in pulling both parents in um sometimes if one works quite a bit or they’re gone or they’re deployed it gets tricky right but it it it is one of those things where it’s like we can do all these things for your husband your wife your child whomever it is however the system that they go back to needs to be able to support it and so at the onset it’s like this is a whole whole family situation and everybody needs to understand the premise of it I’ve had instances where I’ve had a parent refuse right not doing it yeah and it’s like that’s okay sure and it and so what I do is I work with the client to say don’t internalize it they’re on their path and their journey and you have to just allow them to be where they’re at it’s not about you but you can continue on your path and your journey I love that and and allow and then they have the other parent thank God I’ve always had one I’ve always had one um that has been able to connect and to say I’ll walk this with you yeah and so then it’s a matter of teaching the the kid and the parent or the spouses to breathe together to work together and to learn how to see each other and where the Attunement and the attachment breaks down um but a lot of times it starts with the individual first cuz I have to be able to accept you right and then why work individually with the other person cuz sometimes you come in and you don’t even realize you have a problem cuz you weren’t using substances sure right fine yeah you weren’t doing the bad thing so everything was fine resume look good right you know how that is right yeah oh wait a second yeah for sure that was my story of 2016 that’s the myth of normal yes right it is it’s the myth of normal it is and health MH what is healthy right yep yeah and having those conversations and and what does good health look like for mental health what does nutrients look like what does great connection look like physiologically yeah cuz the nutrient part is huge if I do not eat well I would not feel well I know if I do not feel well I am not going to think I’m not going to be present and I’m just going to be aate and everyone can pretty much relate to that 100% I you got a cold or the flu for now you’re just not there right but food plays such a huge role in nutrients and vitamins and supplements and exercise all of that is is mental health and wellness and we all should check in with our mental health yeah you know it’s not just if you’re having a problem but let’s let’s get it early yeah if I could teach little ones this whole process in schools it’s like learning languages they’re like oh now I speak Spanish yeah you know it’s really cool and my kids they’ve been doing the dualingo for the Portuguese cuz they’re in Brazilian jiu-jitsu so they want to be able to you know talk to professor and things like that that’s cool yeah it is it’s a whole another language y it really is and when families make a decision and I’ve watched this with individuals and family systems both and when they’re not willing and when they’re willing I mean I’ve gone into group and say hey I so your family was on the uh family program running through their curriculum and the I should tell families the way that your loved one settles when they hear that information and often times maybe 50% of the time they they are moved to tears cuz they’re like they’re getting on and doing this work I thought it was me oh my gosh and and then they go to thrive y I mean they just feel an ounce of support and skin in the game right and uh there was a TED Talk done by one of my favorite humans Lisa Smith and I was talking to you about before the show where she dubbed the phrase parallel recovery where the individual is going to do their work and the family gets to do their work and I’m sure you’ve seen just amazing results yep um oh gosh just I mean when you know you’ve got someone there then you’re not the problem anymore because so much that like the guilt and the shame is it’s my fault if I could just whatever it is right stop drinking stop using whatever it is then everybody would be fine but realizing actually everybody’s working together to get healthy so that we can all move to a different level and it wasn’t just you you just needed more help right right yeah I love that it’s like we we heal together yeah you know it’s the one thing in recovery over 15 years and I don’t know a lot um but I think I know one thing and that is we have have to do this together Y and whatever together looks like you know I used to say well you know Gabor Monte says connect family community and culture is the essence I was like what if you don’t have family he like Well Community community and culture right and there is an opportunity there to be safe to settle um and have this opportunity in our recovery today and in our lives from a mental health perspective to just really really challenge the status quo of survival and really anchor into this where we sit today um and that’s interesting too that you bring up because not everybody’s family especially if our family is stuck in a cycle of trauma and substance abuse and all kinds of stuff and they’re not in a place where they want to get out or feel the need that they need to change sometimes you can’t you can’t have that type of relationship because it’s just not available yeah right but you can have a different type of family with people who do share and can connect and that Attunement doesn’t have to just be with our family of origin right it can be with all those people that are supportive and caring and hopefully family sees those changes and maybe that motivates and propels them to change right yeah and it almost becomes like a dare I say an addicting thing because it’s like oh my gosh I just want to be in community I want to be in deep conversation I want to be present with you I want to go have a coffee and just talk about life and just be there and before it was like this no no I can’t be anywhere you know it just it really is and I really appreciate you coming on the show today it’s just been am amazing having your Insight and just the way that you conceptualize recovery mental health the neuro feedback stuff I can’t wait to get it going with the team I want to have you down at the fa facility I talked to our CEO um as well as the other owners in our meeting last Friday looking forward to bringing you down there and hooking people up including myself because that’s one thing that I have not engaged in my recovery and I’ve kind of been boing at it breath work just breath work oh you’re going to I’ve done breath work sessions I’ve done a couple whim Hoffs things of that really enjoyed it and I’m like I got to make that a part of my life and I just have it so I might come down to your office first individually we’ll play around with all this stuff absolutely be aot of fun to hook you up to all the different things you can see how it all integrates and works together awesome yeah thank you so much for having me absolutely it’s been phenomenal thank you so much Dr hokom and thank you all we’ll see you next time peace thank

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Episode 112EMDR: Facing Trauma and Forging ChangeWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/6Je-tyGvUG4Listen NowDescriptionJason Friesema sits with Madeline Frey, our clinical operations and compliance specialist, to speak on a crucial topic: trauma and EMDR therapy. Through sharing personal experiences practicing EMDR and even personal success stories. This is an important topic for us to shine a light on, and we welcome all questions and comments!

Talking Points1. Intro to Maddie (0:25) 2. What is trauma (1:00) 3. What is body offline (1:55) 4. Big ’T’ trauma (6:42) 5. Humans are built to survive (10:50) 6. EMDR (15:10) 7. Jasons EMDR story (19:40) 8. Bilateral stimulation (25:15) 9. Final thoughts (32:05) Quotes

“Your brain comes to some conclusion, and it has its mind made up about something, but your body is telling a whole different story. When your brain and your body aren’t telling the same story, that’s how I identify trauma.”-Madeline Frey, clinical operations and compliance specialist.

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -112- Transcripts[Music] hello welcome to another episode of Finding Peaks I’m Jason frma joining me today is Maddie fry the clinical operations and compliance specialist here at Peaks which is um I think a pretty cool title uh it’s it’s newish it’s newish yeah I am doing some administrative stuff I’m doing some therapy stuff I’m doing um all the things in between so yeah just wearing a lot of different hats these days yeah so you get a long title when you wear a lot of hats requires a lot of words to describe your title anyway what we’re here to talk about today uh is we’re going to talk about trauma and then uh the utilization of EMDR um which I know you are trained in and and passionate about but let’s start with with trauma what I think it seems obvious but maybe what is trauma yeah um so many different directions that I could go with okay yeah pick one yeah but I think what tends to resonate with people the most is when I say that your brain comes to some conclusion and it and it has its mind made up about something um but your body is telling a whole different story um when your brain and your body aren’t telling the same story that’s how I identify trauma and that seems to resonate with a lot of people um because it takes away the idea that um it has to to be this amount bad or it has to be um this shocking of a story in order for it to be something difficult that you’ve been through but a lot of us resonate with the idea that sometimes we just can’t get our bodies online with what our brain thinks and I think that’s how I would boil it down okay yeah what what do you think a body offline is like what what would that mean like if somebody’s kind of sitting in their trauma tons of different things honestly like I think that’s when we see people disregulated just not showing up like themselves or or finding themselves um doing things that maybe then they regret or look back on and say like that wasn’t what I intended I just um I wasn’t in a place to be like using my full mind and my full personality to to walk through that situation and um I mean when I think about the the clients that I’ve worked with that’s when people have a distance from who they mean to be um whether that’s how their mental health shows up or whether that’s how substance you shows up or whatever that is um most people are just trying to stop that feeling of disregulation or Panic or to to get distance from it or something along those lines but um I think that’s how I recognize it at least with the people that we have here yeah yeah I mean I I think I probably shared this with you before and and maybe we’ve even talked about on the on this podcast but um I did a lot of work with vets coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan and I was a newly trained dmdr therapist at the time and I don’t think I knew that oh okay good breaking news for you um but yeah like when when these guys were coming back like I what I how I would describe it to them would be it’s like they have a foot still in Iraq or in Afghanistan and then a foot here and that seemed to resonate with those guys a lot and and they they would know they’re in Colorado Springs driving an I25 and but if there was a box on the road they were so used to kind of having to avoid um improvised explosive devices and that that they would like swerve around uh you know in their pickup or something thinking part of them thinking that they were still kind of back uh in in theater if you will and yeah and so you know a lot of the focus was on how do we kind of bring the feet back together in in this present moment yeah um and and so uh the other thing that you mentioned that I thought of is that I think one of the subtle indicators of trauma too is people have difficulty in interpersonal relationships right right like trauma involves doing a lot of avoidance of triggers and you know maybe having nightmares and flashbacks and that sort of thing um for what we call Capital T trauma we can get to that later but um kind of a more subtle feature is just some difficulty in relationships and I think um you know what you described as being out of accordance with one’s body and uh was it body and mind body yeah they just don’t agree line up where there’s that in congruency or you know for me the foot here foot somewhere else um it makes interpersonal relationships pretty challenging I think and um I don’t think people think about that as a a part of a trauma reaction as well and families experienced that too where it’s like I just can’t seem to connect with my loved one for some reason yeah well and then I think about um the the whole avoidance of triggers that you were talking about especially if it’s relational trauma or um kind of more along the lines of emotional trauma people will get pretty good at finding out how to not get hurt again and so a lot of times that creates distance from people in relationships but then one of the things that I remember at least learning in in some of the trauma courses that I took was some of the protective factors for actually getting through something traumatic or healing from something traumatic is relationships and then spirituality also is a big part of it but both of those components if you can figure out how to make those work for you and and use what you’ve learned to keep yourself safe um but it usually does require a fair amount of courage to actually address the thing because people turn turns out they don’t like being in pain yeah at all for the most part yeah yeah and that’s a pretty um that’s a pretty effective tool like who does want to be in pain tells us to get away from something it’s it’s kind of its job um the issue is obviously when you’re safe again but the pain is still telling you to avoid that’s what gets tricky and I do I think you mentioned something too that I that I um want to highlight is that people that have been through a lot of trauma they do tend to begin to shrink their world down to to stay safe pushing people away pushing activities away and and lives can end up really kind of small and um very contained as a part of a trauma response as well yeah can you can you talk then I I kind of use the um euphemistic term capital T trauma versus Little T trauma um can you maybe talk about that a little more yeah I kind of wish I had a whiteboard here let I’m like tapping into the therapist for everyone look here maybe in post production cver could put one up for you you just trace my fingers give me one of those like glow sticks and do a long exposure yeah so if I was to draw just the capital T right like you would see the shape of the capital T and it’s and it it’s the shape that it is but I could also draw the shape of a capital T with a bunch of little tiny T’s and those things together would create similar impact right like same um avoid strategies same feelings of disregulation same feelings of uncertainty and then low self-esteem too but notice that it’s it’s either that one big thing um or for some people a lot of big things or a series of small things over time that add up to the same impact of the big thing so that’s kind of what I mean whenever people sometimes fight me on the idea of I I think that’s traumatic what you’ve been through and they’re like no it’s not yeah and I’m like well how do you show up because of it and and they start talking about all of these things things that aren’t choices that they’re making that it’s not something that they’re doing intentionally it’s not in line with their values but they just can’t seem to get away from it it’s it’s kind of like it it just has impact no matter what you think about it and most of us kind of let the Judgment of that get in the way but when we talk about little tea traumas sometimes those can be um yeah just like a series of I usually think relational things over time um that kind of Stack up that give you a certain amount of expectations of what you can get especially from close intimate relationships and then when I think about Big T trauma I think sometimes single incident um some of the things that you would probably more easily associate with trauma um but I I also jokingly say to my clients whenever I’m working with them that I think of trauma work as the Wild Wild West like there’s just there’s no rules everyone’s just out here kind of getting by and you just never know what to expect and so I think that we have ways of think thinking about it without being able to say it’s exactly this or it’s exactly that or because of this this is going to happen it just doesn’t work that way so those are just some of the things that I think about in order to conceptualize what I’m what I’m looking at and how to explain it to someone I I really like that um the metaphor of the teas actually and I can’t wait to see what cver does with it but um but in all seriousness like what I thought about when you were saying that is um I used to do um some like personal finance coaching with people and and um why am I learning a lot about you right now well I’m just letting my guard down and uh and basically you know obviously there are some people that have like a big hospital bill from a big event that kind of disrupts their budget or you know maybe in out outrageous student loans or something like that but for most people the things that break their budget are the daily trips to Starbucks and then the McDonald’s and then um you know a little shop here a little Amazon like that analogy yeah and and uh I’ve heard it called Death By A Thousand Cuts right and where it’s um where it isn’t there’s no one cut that did the damage if you will but it is kind of that cumulative effect of like you can I remember I had a guy um in one of my classes that was an airline pilot actually and so um one of our tasks was to write down everything you spend in a month and he like came to me and he’s like I am eating my money and he had spent well over $1,000 on on eating out in a month just but didn’t think about it like it never felt never hit like a this is disrupting my um budget and I think in a similar way uh when we bring this back to trauma it’s like okay yeah to your point like okay we can’t we don’t have the big thing the big event that happened um in that traumatic experience but to your point like little elements of um neglect as a kid or little moments where your needs aren’t being met but that being kind of consistent over time um can be that death by Thousand Cuts if you will totally well and and I always think about just like the human spirit and like how people are just so geared to get by no matter what the cost um so here’s a story that I like to share okay this is um are you familiar with the Donner Party yeah okay so yeah there’s a book getting morbid all it is just a little bit um hang with me so there’s a book called uh the indifferent stars above and basically in this book it just tells the story from a first-person perspective of the Doner party so basically what happens is it’s these people going West on the Oregon Trail and they leave a little bit too late in the season and they’re heading west sorry I hit your microphone sorry CER they they leave just a little bit too late in the season and they are crossing the Sierra Nevadas in covered wagons and you’ve got families you’ve got men you’ve got women you’ve got babies and so essentially what happen happens is they get hit by an early season snowstorm that traps them in the Sierra Nevadas so Q this just very famous story where they essentially have to turn to cannibalism in order to survive and um when I look at hang with me I promise I’m going you just casually said it but yes that is it’s just such a good book I love it and basically what happened is um when you look at who actually survived who got through that it was mostly women that survived from it and something that I learned just from like my own experiences in the outdoors is that um women have reproductive organs that sit in the center of their bodies and so women are more likely to experience hypothermia because their bodies are really good at taking all the blood from your extremities and bringing it into your core but when you’re in a life or death situation it’s your core temperature that keeps you alive right whereas men are more likely to just die from the situation or from the a low core temperature because their bodies aren’t as good at bringing blood into the center and so most of the survivors were women so I think that story is fascinating because talk about the worst condition that you could possibly be in as a person something that like is is truly a life or death situation and there’s all these different things that are true about the human body that are meant just to kind of keep you moving forward and I think about especially women in in that perspective it’s like we could lose a finger we could lose a limb but but at least you’re alive and I like to think about human tenacity like the human Spirit as kind of like that we’re just geared to survive we’re we’re geared to keep moving forward at no matter the cost so that’s kind of how I think of trauma in that way because there’s things that are going to happen to us there’s narratives that we’re going to keep about ourselves other people or the world that are going to be like losing limbs that are going to be pretty detrimental to how you keep moving forward but if we’re geared to survive we’re geared to survive and so the body basically says what do we not need in order to stay safe great we can lose a finger like that’s fine we’re just going to keep moving forward um so there is toughness in the human spirit that just says like I’m just nothing can break me but at what cost right so it’s it’s the cost of that because most of us aren’t walking through a snowstorm most of us aren’t in a covered wagon Crossing these SE Nevadas so what is that for each of us and what have been and the injuries along the way that you just had to kind of take to keep moving forward um and how do you change those narratives for yourself in order to better support like a body that’s able to to live and feel regulated in this world and in relationships yeah like it in a way um if you can if you can kind of access that gratitude like okay I took you know maybe I lost a finger or whatever in this metaphor but like you know maybe I took my hits along the way but but it’s all an indication that I’ve survived like I’m geared for survival yeah that’s exactly right sorry if that’s too dark for this pod no I think um remind me to never go backpacking with you it’s just like getting a little hungry um so let’s talk about excuse me one um one of the treatment modalities for trauma is EMDR I movement desensitization and reprocessing so with with EMDR well yeah where do come from what’s the what’s the origin story just G to give you my Spiel okay Spiel away it’s why you’re here yeah which you are as well EMDR trained and I haven’t you know been able to actually see you do this or talk with you much about this that’ll be the last part of the Show Gotcha let’s talk about my personal trauma yeah it’s bringing image to mine um so I’ll be curious to hear like how you kind of conceptualize it in a way but basically it came from the idea that um a woman was walking and thinking about difficult things and um noticed that when she would walk and move her eyes from side decide it it felt less difficult to think about um and so that kind of spurred this whole Theory this whole practice of EMDR IM movement desensitization and reprocessing that basically says when you’re incorporating bilateral stimulation so that side to side um you have better capacity to reprocess things or kind of like I was talking about earlier get your brain and your body back online where your brain can have a thought and your body doesn’t start freaking out as a result of it um yeah anything you would add to how it came about that was description I I think that’s exactly I mean that’s my understanding too is that her name was Francine Shapiro and yeah she just um yeah was just going on walks and like why do I feel better after these walks and got more and more intentional about okay what is this and I she figured out that it was this bilateral stimulation I think getting the the hemispheres of the brain to talk to one another and um that seemed to help her uh more a processed her problems that’s my understanding too yeah and I I I just get stoked about EMDR because I think it’s so cool and fair warning I could just I could ramble about this for quite some time so I’m going to try to make it concise yeah um so you know when you’re sleeping and um you heard of REM sleep random eye movement so that’s when you’re going going to have your eyes moving to side to side that’s when you’re going to um dream in those places or maybe have nightmares too kind of you were talking about with the the guys coming home from war yeah right like that is a lot of times associated with I hit a certain point in my sleep and I woke up from a nightmare so the theory is that when you’re sleeping you’re processing and when your eyes are moving side to side that’s when you’re doing that at a greater speed or with greater efficiency or something along those lines and the idea is that we’re replicating that and we’re saying how can we do that in our waking hours um but you remember how I was saying that humans are just kind of geared to survive they just have this innate capacity so think about getting like a cut on your arm or something like that and what is your skin designed to do just scab right like kind of heal itself back up um but if you got dirt or you got bacteria in that cut you know you would likely see something happen along the lines of it’s either delayed in its healing or it might get infected or it might Fester or something along those lines it’s just the healing process got stunted but the skin is naturally meant to heal itself that’s kind of how I think about our brains yeah they they are meant to heal themselves they’re meant to take the Adaptive the good information the the healthy stuff that makes you feel whole and makes you feel human and it’s that’s meant to meet the difficult things that you’ve also experienced and meant to make it easier to just kind of live with what you’ve been through um because the positive things but if the trauma exists kind of like a cut in your brain in that way it it festers or it becomes infected or whatever it is and so when we access that ability to kind of bilaterally stimulate your brain it gives it a greater chance to kind of clean out some of that that bacteria or some of that um whatever it is that’s keeping you stuck in that place um so at least those are some of the analogies that I offer with it it yeah um but then going back to the whole it feels like the Wild Wild West because I’m like that’s how I conceptualize this and some of it still does kind of feel magical in that way it’s hard to really put my finger on like this is exactly how this works and here’s how I know that people get better because of it yeah I mean I think that’s fair but what we do know is people um do get better I have I have another little story maybe you haven’t heard it maybe you have I guess we’ll see um so part of doing EMDR training is you kind of you also get to to go through EMDR at least that’s how it was when I went through the training and um I had a thing happened to me uh that I worked on an EMDR and I’m going to tell that story right now um when I was a a little bitty baby counselor um I had I was working with substance use people with substance use uh disorder and I had a a client who um I was doing his intake in my office and um he was quite fidgety couldn’t sit still um um but I did the intake and and then we left my office um I’m sure I went to get a cup of coffee if you know me that definitely happened and um when I came back to my office this client had the chair he was sitting on was flipped upside down and I’m like okay what what are you doing man and he’s like I lost my phone so we flipped the chair back over I’m like oh I’ll help you find it and I shove my hand down into the couch and come out and there’s a hypmic needle hanging out of my thumb oh my gosh um which I didn’t love uh it was not great news for me uh it was really uncomfortable um I kindly asked the guy to leave uh for obvious reasons and like it was upsetting like I didn’t know what was on the needle like you know it was obviously didn’t have a cap and it was a used needle so like it was um an unpleasant experience to say the least and um I kind of got over it right like um but what I figured out is that um I would position myself on furniture so that I would never be touching like the crack of a seat cushion or even kind of the back part of a chair or couch and but it didn’t really affect my life much like I I knew how to sit down and I would never ever ever put my hand into the into the cushion or anything like that and and so I just kind of filed it away and moved on with my life and then when the cmdr class came out they’re like okay get don’t bring up your you know deepest darkest but bring up a little trauma or um and so sure enough I bring that up and go through the EMDR and I honestly I pictured it like on a train moving by me which is can be a strategy for it and um and now like I it has no like I can search for things in a couch cushion and all that and and it’s just crazy because obviously I avoided all that because I every couch might have a hypodermic needle sure in yeah um but actually in the real world even you know there’s no hypodermic needles in my house you know like that’s just not going to happen and so going through that EMDR process um and it like the person who did that with me like it was her first time being a facilitator of EMDR like it worked really quickly yeah two pretty quick sessions and um that little medium tea not quite Capital but not quite little middle-sized tea um trauma uh Prett quickly cleared out was kind of cool yeah and and I don’t know what resource you had in that that you incorporate it into that situation so that when you think back on it you like probably also remember something else like sometimes what I tell people is I don’t I don’t know what your brain is going to do I just I trust your brain and I trust human nature in that way that they want to get better like you want to be able to sit down and not feel like wey of whatever is in the Cracks around cions that’s exactly right and and you know obviously like in the class like we didn’t travel through any kind of channels of trauma if you will but like I don’t know it just it was a really cool and good experience and made me an early believer in in the process for sure because I noticed the actual result of it um so matd talk through like okay so we talked about um bilateral stimulation or whatever but practically what what is EMDR what what do you do you do with your
hands um yeah so there’s a lot of different ways that you can approach it honestly and and most most people will find something that either fits the therapist the best or fits the client the best and basically where I’ll start is something that is more on the positive end for someone so I I want them to know that if they’re going to dip a toe into what’s hard that they’re going to be able to get out of the pool so if we start with you know the worst and the scariest it’s probably going to be really overwhelming to begin with but we start with what we call resourcing and so it’s like you know how’s your breath work can you notice things in your body are you I call it somatically connected like do you do you have the capacity to feel a feeling and notice how it affects your body um everyone has the capacity to do that it’s just a matter of how familiar we are with it and so a lot of times we might have to spend some time kind of working there and saying like can you regulate yourself can you notice what it feels like physically to feel good and regulated versus disregulated and kind of stuck in that negative pattern there’s a couple different ways that we do that one of them is the the safe place activity where we um introduce the bilateral stimulation and basically say we’re going to practice this at a much more slow maybe kind of shorter pace and I’m going to have you think of a positive place and we’re going to run through the the senses connected with that so things you can see things you can touch things you can smell and usually when someone finds a good spot it’s like they feel calmer or they they notice the tension kind of leaves their body in a way so we kind of play with that for a session or two and just see how effective it is because we want to find something that’s effective for the person before we have them kind of jump into the pool um yeah anything you would add to the resourcing process so talk about oh no not to the resources okay so I was just going to tell ask you to talk about like bilateral stimulation and what is that yeah practically like there’s a variety of ways that people achieve that but yeah yeah so obviously as the name implies eye movement desensitization reprocessing the initial method of practicing This was um a therapist or practitioner holding up fingers and having you follow with the eyes um it’s effective in that way and it definitely works and there’s people that I know that that still do that but I think at least for me what I found is that my eyes would get dry or I would start feeling tension in my eyes and I was focusing more on that than what I was thinking about and so I I don’t love that as a therapist or a client it also feels kind of weird to put my fingers in someone’s face and say like okay here here’s my hand your shoulder gets tired like all kinds of problems yeah um and then there’s um some people will do tapping or something along those lines that they call like a butterfly hug where you like go here and just trying to hit my microphone H the microphone yeah um and then um there’s a light bar out there that um does the same eye movement but instead of the therapist putting their hand up the client just follows the eyes um I actually did bring my theer tappers with me and this is my favorite um so I’m just going to show what’s what’s all in it so you’ve got this little container or box thing um and that’s what you would plug these guys into I had a client recently call these pickles okay yeah he plugged the pickles into and most people will ask me um do these Shock Me and the answer is no they just like little buzzers I think people associate it with like um like old school like electroshock therapy and it’s nothing like that not like that at all so basically I just turn it on and you can can feel them kind of Al it’s like your phone vibrating right like it’s like atic M for sure yeah it just feels like a very soft gentle vibration and I can change like the speed I can change the intensity I can change the pause in between them and there might be different reasons why I might change those for the client um sometimes it can help kind of increase that processing speed or help them kind of get over the hump of something difficult if if the stimulation changes but this is my favorite because I think it lets people just kind of be passive and and receive the bilateral stimulation versus having to create it themselves or for them to focus on me and what I’m doing it’s just a flick of a switch for me yeah so yeah what did what did you use yeah old I I would have people put a pillow on their lap and then I would tap with my own fingers the backs of their hands oh yeah um which that uh that was a little that was somewhat how I was trained but then like when you’re doing that you’re also bilaterally stimulating yourself cuz you’re like tap tap tap tap so I’d really like focus on things and keep myself grounded because otherwise I can just like be wandering off in into my own land so and actually have a story about that I when I first started doing that on that little box there’s lights that go back and forth that tell me which one’s lit up and how long it’s buzzing for and I remember counting cuz I want to make sure that I’m you know giving the right dose or whatever and you know making sure that the person is you know getting as much as they’re supposed to and I was having these vivid dreams and I would wake up exhausted I remember just passively mentioning that to someone on staff one day and she goes are you watching the lights on your theater and I was like yes I am and she goes stop don’t do that because it’s going to it’s going to activate something in you that’s like that that’s exactly right that is so funny that is funny and I I do think um like kind of the the edges of EMDR too is like it’s a it’s a the clients always have uh the brake pedal is how I would say like they can always interrupt it totally um it’s so important for people to feel safe and like they’re in control because that often is what kind of traumatic events cause you to feel out of control like the little story I told about the needle in my chair like that is way beyond my control and like um so kind of having a safe space where you’re like okay I can I’ll only go as far as I as I want to I always have the opportunity to hit the brakes and be like no I’m getting too stimulated or too flooded yeah um and I think that that part matters a lot and um and I think you know it isn’t it’s sometimes as clinicians I think it’s helpful to like give little prompts like I it it’d just be best if we kept going but if you want to stop we can stop but almost through this yeah ex yeah exactly um because it is there’s an element of it that is kind of exposure therapy like people like people these images come into their minds and uh like that can be stressful but um totally but giving people strategies to kind of keep walking through it I think is really helpful yeah absolutely and and that’s I think part of the informed consent part of this for me because I’ll kind of give the Spiel I’ll show the person here’s the paddles here’s the pickles right like notice that it’s not shocking you it’s a gentle buzz and I think when people have the informed consent they’re able to well part of that is then this might be really distressing right something that I was taught was um in in the EMDR training that I took was the only way through was through yeah right so it there’s no there’s no trick there’s no you can’t um you can’t really bypass it in a way and there’s been times that even when I offer that or when I say like I want you to know that this could be really difficult um some people will um you know kind of finish a session or something and say like I felt like pain in my stomach or I felt like I genuinely couldn’t catch my breath or I didn’t expect that to be so hard and that’s not true for everyone but I think that there is a certain amount of like as you’re Excavating and as you’re kind of touching those tender spots in your emotions and your memories it it it involves a bit of that kind of pain in that way but again keeping it safe making sure the person knows that it’s only what they can tolerate that that everything about their situation is safe it’s just it’s emotionally distressing and that’s the scale that we use right like I’m going to give you a scale from zero to 10 can you tell me how distressed you are right now and someone’s like this is my 10 and I’m like okay right like we’re just going to keep working until you say we’re not right and that’s and that’s my job is to make sure that that I have them that I’m able to kind of help regulate them and to help them get over the hump whether that’s we’re going to take a break or let’s stand up or let’s change how we’re doing this or who’s a positive person that you can bring into this memory for you so there’s lots of different ways that we can kind of like jump start the reprocessing process in a way um that makes it feel like they can handle being in that memory without losing a sense of who they are or where they are right like that I think that’s an important piece to just making sure that there’s safety for the person yeah I think I think that’s so huge and so kind of as we wrap up the the thing like I mentioned about my little story or whatever like it it often doesn’t take a ton of time right like it doesn’t take 42 sessions or three years of this usually um and all that to say like my experience too of with myself and with other people working through trauma sometimes you kind of clear things and then down the road other things come up but it doesn’t mean that I had to spend all that time in between going through therapy like just sometimes things come up um but yeah like can you talk about how expedited it can be to kind of get somebody through something that seems pretty major yeah I think um there’s something about it’s kind of let me back up I’m going to answer your question indirectly so when when you do therapy we call it talk therapy right like you’re sitting there and you’re having a conversation and sometimes you find healing by um accessing compassion for yourself or making connections and making sense of something or talking skills and and strategies with your therapist I kind of view that as like one side of therapy and then the other side of therapy is the body part of all of it and that that’s what I’m talking about when I say that your brain and your body don’t agree and so is there well this is the realm where you’re maybe not talking as much you’re not um Talk therapy no you’re not communicating really with your therapist other than what you’re experiencing and then it’s up to them in their training to kind of help kind of guide you along the way but you’re you’re just experiencing you’re just in your body and you’re noticing things as they come up and so when you’re when you’re actually like doing the thing itself you’ll notice that okay now that I’ve done a few sets of the bilateral stimulation I notice that my body doesn’t react as much when I talk about that thing or um um I never viewed it from that perspective or I I feel a little bit more zoomed out from it and now I notice that that was just a kid or I noticed that that parent really really had their own thing going on too it actually had nothing to do with me so it’s it’s kind of like stepping into that and experiencing it differently helps you then remember it differently and it doesn’t it doesn’t always like change the memory for you it I mean like I said Wild Wild West you never know exactly what’s going to happen but I think when when you feel differently about what happened or you view it differently or your body has a different response it’s a whole different kind of healing than I talked about this and I made a conclusion and I and I think I’ve made peace with that thing um and that can happen in a session right not always and there’s a lot of people that um I feel like I just get to scratch the surface with them in in in their time in our program and there’s some people that um will do a few sessions and they’ll come to me you know the next week and be like it’s still it still feels better okay it I didn’t think that this thing that I’d been holding on to for so long wouldn’t affect me in that way anymore but they’re like I keep thinking about it just to see if it still works and it does so I think that’s really interesting is so interesting because it gets you out of your head and it gets you into your experience yeah it’s yeah and and like in in my little story like it doesn’t change the memory the things still happen to me still sucked but it wasn’t I don’t feel anything like I don’t get a flood of like fear or agitation or anger at that person like I just like oh yeah that happened that was wild yeah um you’re able to kind of see it as detached from that yeah truth and it’s just okay this is just what it was exactly um so I don’t I honestly don’t feel anything in my body when I talk about that so um Maddie I just want to thank you I think this was a a lively discussion about trauma and EMDR um and the daughter party yeah
I’m glad we scripted that in uh beforehand um anyway thanks thanks you all for uh watching and uh we’ll see you [Music] soon

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Episode 111Acudetox: From Pain to PeaceWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/yBG0uMuh3zoListen NowDescriptionJason Friesema sits with Rebecca Aston, Clinical Supervisor and AcuDetox Specialist, to speak on one of the more unique treatment modalities offered at Peaks, AcuDetox. Explaining this modality, providing insightful practical uses, and dispelling common misconceptions, our team takes the time to share this practice with our viewers. For more information on NADA, check out acudetox.com.

Talking Points1. What is Acudetox (1:00) 2. National Acupuncture Detoxification Association (2:05) 3. Does Acudetox hurt? (4:33) 4. Acudetox expectations (5:58) 5. Auricular therapy (9:58) 6. Acudetox impacts on depression and anxiety (10:41) 7. Response to skeptical thoughts (13:00) 8. How did this modality begin? (14:26) 9. The future of Acudetox (18:30) Quotes

“By stimulating that sympathetic nerve, it really does relax that fight or flight or freeze modality where somebody gets anxious, so it creates a place of calmness and relaxation.”-Rebecca Aston, Clinical Supervisor and Acudetox Specialist.

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -111- Transcriptsso it is amazing that that statement right a little pain and then you get the pleasure from behind that this is definitely leaning into that [Music]
space hello welcome to another episode of Finding Peaks I’m Jason frma hosting today and I’m really excited to have joining me Rebecca Axton LPC Lac clinical supervisor at Peaks she’s been with us for 3 and A2 years I believe and I’ve asked for I could to come in today to talk about ACU detox which is a treatment modality that we offer here at Peaks um and it’s a little bit interesting interesting yeah yeah it’s kind of fun cuz I usually get to meet the clients for the first time when I’m actually like hi I’m Rebecca and I’m going to be sticking you in your ear today yeah to help you relax so yeah walk us through what ACU detox is what it what it I we have an ear here on the brought some props for us to go over but ACU detox actually is a uh Chinese medicine or or or Eastern medicine uh that has come in contact with Western medicine uh in 1974 with Dr Michael Smith uh kind of put this into play it was actually designed to uh help individuals with their withdrawal symptoms uh from substance use and alcohol withdrawal uh and then they found out uh as they kept going through this that it actually helps to uh bring connection with self uh and to relax you so uh you’re you’re able to uh mitigate symptoms of anxiety depression those types of things um we’ve had some really phenomenal results with it uh in Peaks yeah so I always um zoom in on these types of of responses like what what does connection to S like what have you how does that show up when you put little ACU detox needles into somebody’s ears yeah so we actually just go right into into five specific locations from for the NATA protocol which is National ACU detox Association uh for their protocol we go into five connective points within the ear and I brought this prop here uh one of those being the sympathetic nerve uh connective area which is actually associated with your amydala and your fight flight or freeze um so we stimulate that connective tissue to help relax the body I know it seemed kind of an oxymoron right that you would put something into a space that is normally helps you to have anxiety so that you can fend off things to relax that space yeah exactly so we do that we also do the the shenmen area which helps to bring that that connection to self and and and your world around you it’s the spirit spiritual connection if you will um to yourself then we go in um the kidney the liver and the lung uh most of the time those are filters and they also help you to kind of uh relax and helps to process it brings uh that stimulation through the connective tissue that we puncture into creates a stimulation through the body so people actually have reported that they can feel the sensations running through their body it’s not a guarantee but it it I have had that report with quite a few people that they can feel the sensations running through their body that something is actually happening and with those signals that run through the body to the brain um it helps to bring in molecules from the body to produce uh sedation and and relaxation okay and thereby they have this connection to themselves I found that a lot of our individuals coming in uh with trauma it’s the first time that they’ve allowed their selves or themselves to really relax um which is odd so we do create this nice quiet space for them to be in that they are able to find this relaxation um because that’s what calms the nervous system down as well and then with this treatment that helps that with blood flow and all of these um healthy molecules running through the body it creates this nice relaxed space for them okay in which to heal do you do you find that people get pretty nervous going into this and I I guess probably question you get is does it hurt yes I get that question a lot and I can’t say it’s painfree but it’s not painful uh there is a small pinch upon the insertion of the needles because we actually do use real needles they’re really tiny about the size of a hair um and so they just go right underneath the dermis right into that connective tissue so there’s a little small pinch maybe like an anth bite if you will um and then after that there shouldn’t be any pain pressure discomfort and if there is we just move it a little bit to allow that connective tissue to either grab hold or relax that um and then they don’t feel anything okay so I’ve participated as a participant I guess with arular therapy or ACU detox a couple times and I certainly notice like particularly one spot would hurt more than others and then um within a period of time like they begin to fall out what what is that about um the reason they they do fall out is you could have hair that pulls on the needles that pulls them out if somebody is ears hairy your ears are hairy well a hair from your head okay um the hair pulls pulls it down so I usually have people either pull their hair back or I will pin it back with some bobby pins or whatnot uh so that the hair is not the point if they tend to chew gum or eat something which we you know try to avoid that because the movement or the the um uh movement of the jaw can actually wiggle those out because your skin moves moves when your jaw moves uh most of the time uh it’s the connective tissues the vibration within the connective tissues and the heart rate that puts pulsations on the needles and then we’ll tend to push them out okay it doesn’t mean that there’s something wrong with that particular area of the body it’s just functioning at a higher level okay so those vibrations that that signal through the body can push the needles out I have seen them just drop out and then I have seen them like shoot away from someone which is kind of fun cuzz people you know are taken back when that happens but really it’s just a normal function of the body to push things out of the body okay that makes sense um so what have you seen like walk me through maybe a typical or um I don’t know a good example of how somebody detoxing maybe from alcohol and and on they’re they’re on day two or three and you do ACU detox what do you see with them what do you notice um usually there’s a bit of nervousness up front um uh and then we just simply walk through very very slowly what the process looks like um I use the guided The Guiding tubes on the needle so I’m not freehanding it into the ear uh less chances of double sticking someone with their own needle um uh but we will place the needles in these specific areas and then we will simply have them rest for between 35 and 45 minutes okay uh with the needles in place I play some nice uh Spa type music nothing with words because you do kind of get into that hypnotic type of state where you’re right before you fall asleep um in that kind of floaty space yeah um uh so that you’re just aware of what’s happening with your body okay yeah so and then people who are detoxing aren’t usually feeling very floaty in that way they usually quite aware that they are uncomfortable they are yeah so yeah and it’s interesting because I’ve had more people than not really relax into this space again it’s typically the first time uh that they’ve in many many years had an opportunity to just really relax uh and then we have the people that just don’t like needles at all they’re like needle phobic needle aversive for whatever reason um and so we put on these acupressure seeds which is a vicaria seed a flower um stuck on surgical tape and we have both the uh skin tone and the clear um that I use so you uh depending on your skin tone right you don’t see uh the tape necessarily on the skin but this applies the same uh theory behind it it just is a pressure on that same connective tissue so it takes longer to work uh these can stay on for several weeks I don’t recommend any longer than 10 days because the surgical tape gets really tacky after 10 days um and so just they fall off they slip off with normal skin wear and tear and washing and oils on the skin or they can simply pull off uh that that uh um we do this once a week for our clients and so if they still have the seeds on when we come back around to do this I just simply pull it off clean the ears and we start again but it has the same kind of theory that pressure on the connective tissue sends the signals through the body creates the movement within the body um which then creates the relaxation in the yeah so it obviously you know this is called ACU detox and as it implies it’s like acup puncture or pressure uh to help somebody detox what about people coming in with depression or anxiety or PTSD I know this is also called aular therapy which aular I think just means having to do with the ears yeah um ear therapy Eary so if you look at my nice big ear um uh we think about this as an entire body system the head being here if you think of this as a fetus right and turn it upside down so you have the head the spine the internal organs and the hands and the feet or I’ll fold it up under here um so the we can get to the entire body system through the ear um but we do again with the NATA treatment we do specific spots in the ear that have been um um identified as creating that same connection and relaxation but we’ve had some really great luck with so what does that do for somebody with depression or or anxiety or yeah well it creates a calmness within them so by stimulating that sympathetic nerve um it really does relax that fight flatter or freeze modality where somebody gets anxious so it creates a space of calmness relaxation it helps with sleep um I don’t know if this is going to be appropriate here but I did this with my husband after his uh he he had some kidney stones and was having some issues we use this treatment a couple of times to help him with that to help him relax and move through that space of the discomfort and pain that he was going through worked really well for that um it can decrease anxiety and agitation within someone through this stimulation process so it is amazing that that statement right a little pain and then get the pleasure from behind that this is definitely leaning into that space yeah I find it interesting that I mean you’re a therapist Rebecca like and you’re doing acupuncture did you see yourself doing this at some point or when when did when did you kind of stumble into arular therapy well at my heart I am a trauma therapist and so I was looking for all avenues uh trauma related to help people move through their trauma and this part particular method popped up in that uh so I did the extensive training that was offered um and again I I was a little skeptical at first because How could puncturing somebody in the ear uh really help them to relax um but ancient Eastern medicine welcome to the Western World it actually does create this space now while it may not work for everyone I have found over uh the years that this is really a good modality for individuals with trauma uh it can help them to relax so that they’re able to talk and process uh it helps people to relax and journal uh it kind of frees up that space that that’s blocking them if you will um so that they’re able to process more of their trauma story okay have you seen people be kind of skeptical of it and it still work for them oh 100% okay yeah yeah 100% um because it you know once they start feeling things in their body some they know something is up uh I’m sure that people who are resistant to this type of medicine um can continue to be resistant uh but that doesn’t mean that it’s not helping them yeah um can you kind of you know without necessarily citing what the studies are but what what do studies show about this like how this is a this is an evidence-based practice correct and and um what is the evidence that that you kind of reviewed as you were learning this also one of the a government sanctioned kind of process for trauma for those individuals uh First Responders uh I work with uh FEMA as well kind of on the side uh as a as an emergency medical uh practitioner in going to emergency sites fires earthquakes floods those kinds of things and we’ll set up an Acu detox area for people who are experiencing this this trauma for the First Responders for the citizens that come in okay which is really nice yes so even that acute trauma that’s going on in real time is helpful with that yeah and yes so what and then what did like how how did this end up in 1974 coming here like was it research was it kind of trying to find solutions for people who are suffering yeah like what what do you know about the research behind there is quite a bit of research and I didn’t bring all the research but there are a lot of Articles out there about the process for acute detox again uh Dr Smith in 1974 brought this over and kind of made it a a widely available modality for trauma therapy and detoxification yeah which is where he started at okay and then being mindful of HIPPA and that sort of thing do you have any stories like any anyone who is like okay this as this person was leaving treatment they really came and so the the ACU detox really helped me like do you have any stories of how this has helped and maybe that could help illustrate with this the type of people this can help with yeah several stories that come to mind right when we have resistant individuals it’s like oh I’m not doing that that’s just that’s that’s I mean how does that help yeah so they will resist for maybe a week or so and then they’ll see a dozen or so other people around them actually move into that nice relaxed quiet space and then talk about CU I I allow people to talk about it after the process um what are they feeling what do they notice what changes have taken place so they’ll start talking about that and then the next week that we do this the individual will come in and maybe they want to try ACU pressure not necessarily acute detox um and then the week after that then they want to try the acute detox so we go nice and slow one needle at a time we breathe through it until they can get there uh we had a recent intern uh who was needle phobic and she after a couple weeks she started doing this uh and we actually helped her kind of mitigate her needle phobia uh by using ACU detox of the ear okay because the thought of having needles in your ear was more of a a pressure for her or for other individuals as well uh than the actual process itself so we helped them kind of move through that needle phobia which is always fun for me yeah to see people actually um uh become brave enough to give it a try because you know they’ve never imagined themselves being around a needle before right and so here they are sitting amongst their peers who are all have 10 needles sticking out of their ears yeah yeah okay and in all your years and hours of doing this have you seen any negative reactions other than people just not wanting to do it um no it’s really just that I have had I think one individual who had Bumble ear pretty bad uh wrestler in your world so those of you who have that cauliflower ear Bumble ear uh is a lot of cartilage development in the ear uh he had a pretty negative response um just because it was painful for him okay and we couldn’t find a space so he got fairly angry but we removed it right away um there was no other negative uh side effects from that um but for the most part I’ve done thousands of these um acute detox treatments without any negative reactions okay yeah I mean it’s rare that I don’t know numbers can be that good but I I I mean from the outside looking in with how you practice this with our clients like it does seem like it does seem to be helping regulate people’s nervous system and obviously coming into a treatment program like Peaks it’s a stressful situation it’s very difficult and this is um kind of a wonderful tool we can offer uh well really everybody um that is willing to maybe step outside their comfort zone and some people I’m sure are very comfortable with and have had have a lot of experience with AC ACU puncture in the past but um this is a very beneficial uh intervention for sure do is this do you know if this field is going anywhere like is there an expansion are you adding new areas that you’re targeting um is there or is is this the N protocol is Bally these Five Points um acupuncture does allow there’s over 120 uh ACU pressure or acute detox per acute detox points ACU pressure points within the ear structure front and back uh that can be targeted so if you have back pain lower back pain uh you can simply Target that area if you’re having issues with um uh you know sinusitis there’s an area for that there’s also some layouts for if somebody has a migraine um that’s quite a few more points uh combined to create this this relaxation for the migraines and the headaches and uh if you have problems with your ankles or your feet or your hands uh within this there is a spot for everything yeah that you can Target but it’s really fun um I have found over the years right uh what I see because I do our men on Friday and our women on Thursday is that they will like talk to each other about this upcoming thing and they get really excited to see me because they know what day it is it’s like yeah Friday and here she comes and they will run from group to group uh to come in for their acute detox treatment they want to be the first one in they want to get their seat prepared so they know they can relax in that space what I think it is the beauty of what you have to offer is obviously it helps people early in their treatment process when they are really kind of amped up about being a Peaks but we also with how our curriculum is laid out with it being kind of week long intensives like it’s a nice kind of end cap to a week where um people can kind of do deep and intensive work and then have this to look forward to to kind of like begin to settle their nervous system after maybe going through grief or or other trauma issues and that sort of thing yeah um and I think it speaks to itself in that because we do some pretty good intensive work where people get really deep and emotional and this allows them to really notice the emotions without getting overly uh or overwhelmed by them yeah in this space absolutely yeah all right well um with that Rebecca I think we’ll go ahead and uh wrap up this episode I’m really grateful for you to come on I really appreciate you bringing props and uh this oversized ear that doesn’t have any hair in it and um and the needles and everything like that and and uh with that I’ll go ahead and um sign off so thanks for viewing yeah come join us I look forward to setting you up with acate detox as well

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Episode 110Exploring Internal Family SystemsWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/2ursuebfEEMListen NowDescriptionJason Friesema sits with Shaina Crisp and Samantha Powell to discuss Internal Family Systems: Defining IFS, looking into the “parts,” and how to know if this therapy is right for you. Our team brings knowledge and experience to speak on a therapeutic modality not often spoken about.

Talking Points1. What is Internal Family Systems (0:35) 2. What are the “Parts” (2:07) 3. What causes the parts to split (4:15) 4. What is the goal of IFS (5:25) 5. Building relationships with a part (9:10) 6. Timeline of IFS therapy (15:35) 7. How to know if IFS is right for you (18:10) Quotes

“We are born with our core self intact, but then the more we go throughout life and the more we experience trauma, the more the parts come into the system and take over as needed. So, the idea is that we want to get back to our true self and have that shine through in every interaction we can.”-Shaina Crisp, Primary Therapist.

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -110- Transcripts we all have many different parts of ourselves that show up in different times and different [Music] situations hello I’m Jason frma welcome to another episode of Finding Peaks I have a pretty cool episode today I have two therapists joining me Samantha pal and Shaina crisp I am really excited for us today to talk about um a therapeutic modality called internal family systems I think you’re really going to enjoy this talk about kind of the basic premise like what is what is that based upon obviously it’s a theory of of counseling um and it and it’s just that it’s a working Theory um it’s not everything in counseling but it’s an important it can be an important um way to conceptualize clients and what they’re experiencing so yeah just kind of give an overview Shane I’ll you um so the basic concept of ifs in my mind is that we all have multiple personalities in a sense um which is kind of funny because that gets a lot of flack in the Therapeutic Community if multiple personalities even exist um but why what ifs says is that we all have many different parts of ourselves that show up in different times and different situations so nobody acts the same in every scenario and that’s because different parts take over right depending on what’s Happening when people say it all the time right like there’s a part of me that believes you there’s a part of me that doesn’t there’s a part of me that wants to go there’s a part of me that doesn’t it is kind of in our vernacular and how we talk and even how we think about ourselves often times yeah it’s almost scientific that we like our brains are modeled so that we have different parts that show up in different times like trauma responses or triggers or um maybe like your high self monitoring so you show up differently for different types of friend groups or family um or I might show up differently for my mom than my dad or my sister or my friend or a partner or something like that and or at work and it’s really cool how we can exist in this flexible personality like we’re not defined by one thing we’re defined by multiple different parts and it’s super cool so you super cool um where what are the parts or what are the labels of the parts and then where where did all these parts come from yeah a question um well there are firefighters managers and those are the protectors and then there are Exiles that they that those protectors protect us from and then there’s our core self which are like the compassionate curious calm creative parts of ourselves that show up when there’s not a lot of stress from what my perspective is of it um and firefighters they are more reactive and managers are more proactive yeah and Exile is a lot of the hurt that we’ve experienced in our life like difficult maladaptive core narratives or beliefs from trauma things like that so I don’t know yeah yeah you co a great jobar and so yeah where do they come from why do we have these three kind of General parts to ourselves yeah so we are born with our core self and intact but then the more that we go throughout life and the more we experience trauma and all these different things the more that Parts come into the system and take over as needed so the idea is that we want to get back to our true self and have that shine through in every interaction that we can that’s part what we’re doing within the therapy room with internal family systems is helping our clients kind of parse out those parts and figure out okay which part shows up when I’m angry which part shows up when I’m at work and helping those parts work towards a better more cohesive system um because also what happens is these parts get polarized and so I might have one part that says you need to go to the gym and diet and lose weight and then I have a part on the other side that says I want to eat all of the cookies in the fridge right yeah yeah yeah so exactly nobody can relay with that except for probably everybody yeah that’s exactly right excuse me so okay and then what do you think causes kind of these parts to begin to break off from that creative The Other c-word Self um that you just described span like where where do these fractures begin to occur from my understanding is that I mean just like what sha says is when we have certain experiences that kind of allow them to Splinter off and so um a lot of times on my clients I kind of pair it with inner child work um because a lot of times they feel like let’s say there was a identified child and so there’s this part of them that feels this intense sense of responsibility and so they always are trying to help others or put others before them or they feel incredible like hypervigilance towards other people’s emotions or behaviors because that’s what they expected to do with their parents um and so kind of working and having them have this really healthy relationship within themselves to talk to their inner child and say hey you’re a kid you don’t have to show up anymore you don’t have to protect me I’m we’re going to reparent you and we’re going to become the front of the bus and drive the bus and you don’t longer have to take the on so it’s pretty cool than keep saying that because it’s yeah well it’s coming through your passion for it I appreciate that what would how would you describe kind of the goal of ifs and okay we have Parts like we understand the premise so we have the firefighters and the managers and the Exiles um okay what what do we do about so what yeah um I would say my goal and doing ifs with clients is one getting them to kind of identify their internal system and even what that looks like cuz everyone’s is different um and also to figure out what’s working and what isn’t working within the system um sometimes we have parts that are kind of working overtime and doing jobs that aren’t necessarily suited for them so part of what we’re doing in individual therapy is assigning that part a new job and figuring out what it could do better can can you give a real practical example like I like I mean I feel like we’re up here kind of describing it and it a little bit going over my head but like so what okay how would somebody present like what I have a part doing the wrong job or an exhausted part um what like practically speaking give me an example of what that might look like and how we can reassign that yeah I think it’s something that we see a lot um in addiction and addictive behaviors um whether that’s substances or something else we have a part who kind of takes over and says say okay because this thing has happened I’m going to come in and do something to change the system whether that’s drinking self- firming using drugs that firefighting car is trying to do something to help with the trauma that has already occurred okay um so with that what we want to do is figure out okay is this helping the system or is it hurting it and if it’s hurting it we can work through therapy and have that part do a different job so maybe instead of drinking this part was to have fun and so we give it something to do that’s fun right yeah that’s that’s interesting you know it’s interesting for me that you know when I picture what a firefighter is it’s somebody that’s coming to the rescue and then when we say that kind of like or maybe somebody’s using Behavior or other sorts of uh behavior is a firefighter like explain that just a little bit cuz that doesn’t sound very positive I guess I think that that’s what I really love about ifs is because it really takes the shame out of it because shame is also one of those Exiles that’s one of part we’re like oh my gosh like I’m an addict or I’m depressed and we kind of Define ourselves by our mental health or our addiction and so has society and so it kind of allows us to accept that these parts exist to protect us and there’s this really cool like saying that there are no bad parts each part serves a purpose and so it’s taking away that tensions MH even if what they’re doing isn’t working in the system and uh for us as a person as a whole they have good intentions they want to help the system M so yeah yeah yeah so it’s is like an internal dumpster fire going on in your brain then there’s going to be a firefighter that comes in to just help you and put it out um and then there’s going to be like you know at work there’s going to be a manager that comes down and tells you okay how can you do your job better how can we adjust this and so it’s a way for our system to be helping us and so a lot of times I think that personally with my clients like I’ve had I’ve seen them hold a lot of sh towards their um drinking or towards their SI or towards their self harm and so we kind of ask them to be curious with that part and say hey so what is this actually doing what purpose is this trying to serve and how can you meet them with compassion yeah and helping them separate from that instead of identifying as you know I’m depressed or I’m an addict giving them new language and helping them actually build a relationship with this part of them instead of identifying it as their whole being like there’s a part of me that’s depressed and there’s a part of me that likes to drink when I’m stressed or needs to numb out emotions and things like that so yeah okay so talk about building a relationship with a part because again that sounds very abstract um what we’re using to build that relationship is self energy okay right so what we’re born with before the whole world messes us up is that self energy that intuitive creative calm compassion um that everybody has that is all covered up with parts so with that what we’re using to build the relationship is the self energy um so in therapy I’m helping the client build a relationship between their core self and all of the parts inside um so it’s kind of like inner child work but more complicated because there could be many inner children because those are the Exiles okay so what we’re doing in ifs therapy is building that relationship between self and all of the parts so that we can understand each part so what I ask the clients to do is step back from that part and see if they can look at it inside um and that shows up differently for different clients sometimes people will actually see things visually um sometimes there will be Body Sensations that we talk about and it’s just all to get them to step back from whatever is troubling them and look at it from a different perspective okay so it is kind of abstract absolutely it’s abstract how how do you know you’re talking somebody’s kind of core self is that what is that what the word is like how do you know you’re not just talking to one of the other three parts if you will not the self part that the question that I asked to figure out um how much self energy is present is how do you feel towards this part um and if they give me anything close to one of the eight C’s of self that we’ve been talking about um the C’s that Samantha mentioned okay yeah calm creative compassionate curious um playful courageous yeah yeah there’s eight of them that we missed but yeah I don’t know it’s just basically any negative Vibes I feel like you have towards AP part that was another part yeah so if I have a client and I say how are you feeling towards this part and they say I hate it I hate this part I say okay can you try asking the part that hates it to step back so we can get to know this part first and then we’ll come back to the part who hates it mhm okay so if they that that works people are like no I hate the part of me that eats eight Oreos before I go to bed right and you like set aside the hater let’s just talk to the person eating okay yeah and sometimes it will sometimes it needs attention first right so we talk to the hateful part first and then we come back to the other part that we were working with yeah and it feels really I always when I talk to my clients I’m like this might feel really woooo or something but just lean into it and lean into it with curiosity and just be playful with it and see where it goes and of course like other modalities one size does not fit all and some clients might be receptive to it and some might not um likea was saying that some will actually visualize Parts I had a client that was like yeah mine is stuck in quicksand and I literally cannot get her out I was like Hey so like what would you need to do to like help her get out and she’s like well I might need to get her a rope I was like okay what part can give her a rope and so it kind of allowed her to unin mesh these parts that were just struggling so hard to just let go and so it really helps when they’re very imaginative and what could happen so yeah and those are the clients that I tend to use this a lot with are the ones who are more visual um and who maybe already practice meditation or have some sort of just intuitive talent that way and I also do ifs with my therapist and I don’t normally see anything um it’s more Body Sensations for me so it just depends on the client I mean it’s kind of like with trema work was because we always ask okay like what do you feel as you’re talking about this right now where are you feeling that in your body or how old were you when this happened or then you could ask the part how old does this part think that you are because it seems like we think you’re like a 10-year-old and they’re trying to protect a child and so and that’s C of building the self depart relationship too is and you can ask the client well how old does this part think you are sometimes they’ll say well this part thinks that I’m five you know and they’re 25 so then we’ll update that part and let them know okay you’re trying protect me but you don’t need to because I’m older than you think I am yeah you think I’m five I’m like 37 do you have clients that are skeptical in this approach just Absolut sure are you skeptical of this approach Jason uh I I was I used to be for sure and I I actually went through ifs therapy myself and I spent a lot of time trying to figure it out first like I try to around probably one of my firefighters or something or my uh yeah just like cuz it’s hard to conceptualize um until you kind of let yourself kind of give over to it a little bit yeah um was my experience with it for sure um how how do you know it’s working or what do what are clients saying after they kind of begin to make friends with their parts like what’s been the response I I can think of an example of that one actually um I had a client who came in extremely depressed and suicidal and she felt like her depression and suicidality working she was um and with ifs I was able to get her to step back from that and actually look at why she was feeling suicidal and why that part kept trying to take over um and by the end of it she was able to actually ask that part to step back or let it know hey I’m okay we don’t need to do this anymore mhm yeah I think that’s really cool because um like with suicide ideation there’s a lot of like shame again we talked about earlier there’s a lot of shame or rejection or I don’t want to feel this anymore and so kind of giving yourself the adaptability or the ability to hold space for that part of you and not hold any judgment towards it it’s like I might have suicidal adiation come up but I can recognize what it’s trying to do and I can tell it okay like remember we we’ve been through this we’re okay and so and I can recognize but it’s not all I am it’s just a part of me yeah yeah how do you know kind of when you’re done with ifs like as a client or as a like how do you know like okay I did it I love all my parts they’re great or I’ve integrated them all and I’m only one self now or how do you what’s kind of the goal I guess I see ifs more as a lifestyle than a morality at points um just because we’re constantly growing and changing and things are happening you know externally and internally so we’re going to have to grow and change and adapt to that um so in my mind we’re never really done work um and I think part of what I love about IFS therapy is it gives people the tools to do it themselves outside of the Therapy Group yeah they become their own therapist basically and their own little system mediator and it’s pretty great because yeah I was thinking the same thing I said I don’t think you’re ever really done with ifs work because you’re always going to exist with different parts um and it’s kind of like a like a solar system where you are the sun your core self and these things like revolve around you and so I don’t think it’s ever going to be just one part means num yeah it was a little bit of a trick I mean I figured it was never going to be done but like that was a great answer um yeah yeah nailed it um have you have you seen clients come back and be like are come and talk to you maybe you know toward the end of their treatment here or maybe you know down the road and I hear something and be like okay I did it like I my Exiles showed up and I was able to just you know honor that or something I don’t know yeah I actually had a um got texted by an old client um recently and she was like hey I just wanted to let you know that it’s so wild like this parts’s work has been so crazily influential it’s like I’m getting to know myself a lot more and giving into more acceptance and curiosity and really just shutting down like all the Judgment that like my mom gave me or that like this family has shown me my entire life and being able to show this kind of acceptance towards myself has been incredibly influential she’s like I’m just still working with my parts I was just like that’s so great yeah so it’s pretty cool yeah it’s kind of like taking inner child work to the next level for me yeah you know because like you said we are becoming our own parent right reparenting that internal system so that the core self is in control mhm yeah it’s pretty cool keep saying that but it is so see is it’s pretty cool or what like yeah he’s kind of Ling um I do
really how would you know if ifs is right for you like if if somebody’s just sitting watching how would they know this is a good approach for them you’re going to say for everybody everybody should do it think everyone can get something out of it and I also feel like you know like you said some people have more skeptical part of another some people are more open and receptive to this kind of abstract idea than other people are um but I truly believe that everyone can’t get something out of it yeah even if you don’t go so in depth because I’ve gone to the place of unburdening Ceremonies with parts and then there are other clients that we’re just at the surface of okay let’s identify that there’s this part that feels silly there’s this part that feels super serious and there’s this part that feels professional and childlike or something else like that and that’s pretty much as deep as we go is just learning new parts about themselves especially if they struggle with a sense of identity and purpose um and then you can also go super deep into all that yeah yeah I mean some sessions almost look like a guided meditation yeah um with the client’s eyes closed most of the time um in some sessions I kind of just use the languaging and ask them what do you feel like is Activa right now what parts are awake you know um I often use the language of what parts are in the living room of your head um and which ones are in the basement you know who’s who is paying attention and taking over and we St yeah that’s Prett cool no but I I do really um I mean I really appreciate kind of what you both are talking about too is that it this is pretty abstract uh some might think weird or things or an approach that um maybe they don’t entirely think through but it also seems like there’s some real practical application that people can kind of walk away from it and be like okay as I’m as I’m sitting here I’m having some sort of reaction that maybe seems too large for this situation or maybe doesn’t match the situation quite like it should or I’m I’m in a social setting and I don’t want to talk I’m like frozen here like what’s going on it gives kind of some tools to be like okay I know I have a process now for thinking these things through and it’s through this internal family system modality is that a fair summary yeah sure okay yeah awesome I think it’s really cool because oh my gosh I keep saying that no it’s it’s boring and ridiculous there’s a there’s a part of me that’s coming up that’s just telling me to stop saying cool um there’s a part that really thinks it’s cool that’s like inner critic time you said that yeah like shut up talking about inner system yeah with trauma there are narratives that we hold on to so like I’m not enough or I did something wrong or I am not attractive or I am out of control and and so by recognizing that there is a part of us that’s holding on to that instead of being it defining us and so let’s say we are feeling activated in our chest and we’re like oh my gosh I’m never going to get over this I’m never going to stop feeling anxious or depressed and it’s like well you have you you’ve had the last 10 minutes you’ve been super cheerful like there’s obviously multiple different parts of you and so it’s bringing us kind of awareness that their entire life is not dictated by this solid part of their identity and it’s really empowering I think so I think that is a great way to kind of land this topic um I want to thank you both Samantha sha thank you very much for coming on I know there’s probably part of you that might get anxious in front of cameras and and sitting here um and probably part that it’s pretty exciting um and to summarize uh Samantha this is a really cool approach uh for therapy um no I don’t think so okay I don’t know why you would say I really appreciate this thoughtful discussion about internal family systems thank you both thank [Music]
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Episode 109Sex Addiction: Myths and TruthsWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/YNXwX13s1hQListen NowDescriptionJason Friesema sits with Zach LeFever to discuss process addictions, such as sex addiction, and the adverse relationships that can follow. Defining sex addiction, discussing process addictions, and addressing pornography, this conversation shines a light on essential topics often silenced. Listen in as our team opens the floor to this discussion, and reach out with comments or questions.

Talking Points1. What is sex addiction (1:30) 2. How to talk about process addictions (4:30) 3. Three concentric circles (5:35) 4. What does sex addiction look like (8:25) 5. Inverse relationships caused by process addictions (10:40) 6. Addressing pornography (12:05) 7. Treating sex addiction at PRC (13:55) 8. The kingdom metaphor (18:00) 9. Intimacy with self (21:35) 10. Final thoughts (22:45) Quotes

“When we think about what makes a really good intimate relationship, whether it’s a marriage or a friendship, it’s the risk of, ‘what if this goes wrong,’ and being able to work through that. But pornography removes that risk and says, ‘You just get the feel-good stuff, and you’re by yourself, and so you get to control what’s happening.’ There’s no challenge there.”-Zach LeFever, Primary Therapist.

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -109- Transcriptsin meeting with clients that I’ve met with um there seems like there’s this inverse relationship where um as as kind of acting on sexual behavior goes up you know the ability to kind of be emotionally and physically intimate like in a real way goes down yeah would you say that’s fair [Music] hello welcome to another episode season three I think of finding Peaks I’m Jason friezma Chief clinical officer and you’ll notice we’ve had a change of set I think we are moving toward a podcast feel um and I’m really excited about it I’m hoping it’ll give us an opportunity to have even more intimate and close conversations joining me today uh Zach Lefevre Zach is a therapist primary therapist here at Peaks recovery and um came to us from Durango Colorado where he was working in crisis and I’m really excited to have Zach on today we are going to be kind of tackling the topic of sex addiction um obviously doing a lot of work in this space as far as mental health and substance use it is frequent that people do have ongoing process addictions so addictions that are not necessarily to a chemical or something but to a behavior or set of behaviors and sex addiction is certainly one that that we uh that we look at a fair amount so um Zach maybe start with let’s kind of Define what sex addiction even is like how do we Define that because I think it’s a pretty Broad range of behaviors that can fall under that yeah yeah I think that’s some of the issue um for many is what is it being to Define like what is sex addiction um I think that’s one of the questions that a lot of people ask um and and part of the problem is defining it um because like any addiction right it’s it’s uh it can be kind of um personal in terms of how they Define it yeah what what that label means for them and whatnot but um really the simplest way that I can think of of defining sex addiction is um involving the idea of Reliance and compulsive behavior and and involving some area of unwanted Behavior yeah so if there’s those three things um be now involved I think we can have a good idea of what’s going on yeah I think that makes a lot of sense and I know you know even looking at like the DSM and substance use disorder where there’s like a tolerance uh where you know that often happens with people with sex addiction behaviors kind of tend to ramp up um for people to receive the design right effect from that um a withdrawal can occur if somebody is into the bill if they aren’t acting out in that issue um great deal of time spent in that harming relationships causing harm towards mental health like on and on it goes and so um it is interesting how those parallels um manifest themselves I guess um so how how have you come across this as an interest in your in your therapeutic approach yeah you really start in grad school so I um as a male therapist and a primarily um you know non-male industry yeah if we can put it that way um probably fair I was at one of two male therapists at the first place that I worked in in private practice and so the influx of patients that I got of clients that I got were mainly men from the ages of 18 to 35 or 40. um and um and I think with the clients that I got was noticing that the most of them were coming in with some sort of unwanted sexual behavior that they wanted to talk about yeah and so that just kind of piqued my interest into what’s happening what’s going on how prevalent is this and you know the the world and the clients I’m going to interact with and then how does this relate with other you know mem Health disorders and so it’s kind of what got me started it was really just having clients come to me and be like this is what I want to talk about yeah yeah it is it is remarkable how um how tied this topic is to his shape right like I think uh I find people have plenty of Shame around substance addiction and even mental health issues but to talk about um sexual unwanted sexual behavior like people tend to really go into a shame spiral with that for sure um how and then how have you begun to approach that and how do we how do we talk about it at Peaks I I think that’s an interesting question yeah yeah um so I I’ll go into a little bit of how I learned to talk about it yeah before I became a therapist and so I grew up in what is called Purity culture right so this idea of um you know um very sheen-based culture uh you know if you’re not Pure or whatever that word means right then um then you’re a bad person and so that’s kind of the world I grew up in and um and I think that’s what I know since that’s where a lot of my clients came from as well um and so um you know I think what that means is coming in with like you said the involvement of Shame and to have a conversation um and and I think you know with shame there’s what I believe are two antidotes is kindness and curiosity um and so just asking my clients like are you willing to enter into this space about talking about this and trying to be kind to yourself and being curious about what’s gone yeah yeah I think that makes that makes a ton of sense and I think that can be so relieving of that shame for sure and I know certainly in the work that I’ve done uh with clients on this sex addiction issue um I took from that um kind of the the there’s these three concentric circles um that SAA talks about sex addiction Anonymous talks about um that I was trained on when I did the certified sex addiction therapist training module I think through the meadows and um these concentric circles uh require people kind of in that middle circle to Define uh it they call it the red circle like the things that they want the behaviors they want to eliminate right and and that takes some work and some time like again with with if somebody comes in addicted to heroin like it’s really obvious you want to stop using heroin right like that’s that becomes really apparent but I think it takes some time and some uh some clever clinical work I think to walk through the behaviors that people want to eliminate that would that they would then consider themselves sober if you will from those behaviors and then the next circle out was kind of the yellow circle and those were like the the warning signs like maybe you know being on the internet when everyone else was in bed or or you know driving down certain streets or you know texting people after a certain time that don’t necessarily mean that somebody’s in a relapse but it does mean that somebody’s kind of in that that warning sign area and then the the green circle of that kind of contained information about like these are the things that are going to keep me these are the things I want to go toward if you will like you know whether it’s some sort of meditation a prayer or uh meetings or therapy or whatever I don’t know are you sure with that model at all and like yeah yeah a little bit yeah and I think I think that works in really nicely actually with a lot of process addictions because it takes some time I think to identify what exactly people are needing to treat and what they want to work on and how they’re knowing they’re being successful in that process yeah yeah and that kind of ties into right we’ve had this shift of of language and we as we talk about it because for a long time it was referred to as problematic Behavior yeah but that got into like who defines what’s problematic right um and so you know I think the key term that I use with clients is unwanted like if it’s unwanted then that’s something or if you’re the one that’s saying it’s problematic right that we can go there but um like if it’s something that you want to change then that um you know that’s that’s key that’s something we can talk about yeah so you mentioned the Purity culture a little bit um which you know I found also like implies it for a lot of shame to be honest with you and there isn’t a lot of gray area or ability to kind of explore sexuality in that culture um what other factors do you think kind of Drive uh sex addiction yeah yeah so I think I think we can look at it from a diagnostic Latins where we can say you know there is really no diagnosable condition called this exercise sex addiction right um you know there there’s there was some kind of back and forth about trying to get a hypersexuality disorder but in the DSM I think most recently that was shot down um yet uh so I think that the best way that I’ve come to think about sex addiction um and I think what research supports is that it’s more about intimacy than it is about sex itself yeah um and so as we come to approach it and whether it’s in treatment or just in conversation I think looking at it as more of an intimacy disorder probably frames it in the best light because we find that it’s it’s less about the actual Act of sex or whatever the behavior is that they don’t want and it’s more about the desire for connection and I think that’s really important okay will you unpacked it a little more like okay so because I I could see that being a little bit of a leap going from intimacy or sex addiction is an intimacy disorder like we’re bridge that Gap like it seems like there’s space there yeah yeah um so I think it I think it the bridge has to do with this big word in psychology and counseling called attachment yeah um so for for a long time um and and still the primary view of sex addiction is that um it has to do with uh maybe we can say where it comes from is usually some sort of insecure attachment from you know when you were younger or some sort of uh traumatic situation uh and so um or what they sat yeah what about yeah yeah and so often together and so what they found is um I think what we’re seeing is is that um as we we look at what sex provides right there is you know there is the the um the actual feeling it provides in terms of like the neurochemical response of you know it feels good and then you know pleasure is something that can humans enjoy but it also provides a sense of connection that I think is at the core of human heart desire which is to feel wanted and seen and known and um and so um I think that’s that’s the that’s yeah hence the bridge and it seems like in in meeting with clients that I’ve met with um there seems like there’s this inverse relationship where um as as kind of acting out sexual behavior goes up remember the ability to kind of be um emotionally and physically intimate like in a real way goes down yeah would you say that’s fair yeah yeah I think so because you know as like you said earlier um the uh you know when the brain gets those those certain neural chemical reaction that feels good you know it shuts down some of those receptors and it’s like that’s too much and so you know we need more and more each time to fill that same amount of pleasure yeah that same Good Feeling um and so we uh often that results in like escalation of behavior or you know the that the normal or typical way we would typically we would find that connection of intimacy no longer works yeah um and so we have to be creative and we have to find new ways to feel wanted and and and so that you know that often can lead to a diminished whether it’s with a partner or whether it’s with even you know friends that can lead to diminished real world relationships because those no longer provide that chemical response we’re looking forward I think it’s that’s a great way to look at it how how does um pornography itself kind of work its way into here because I yeah yeah it’s obviously tied in there yeah yeah absolutely um it can be yeah yeah and I think so pornography is an interesting one um because there is like even not from from just a research level like there is plenty of research to show like what it does to the brain and how it you know just impacts our um ability to engage in and you know intimate relationships in the real world scenarios um but really it’s it’s sex without the risk right it’s it’s our it’s connection without the risk of rejection um and I think that’s an important thing to think about because I think the risk is makes it worth it is when we think about what makes a really good intimate relationship whether it’s a marriage or whether it’s a friendship it’s the risk of what if this goes wrong and being able to work through that but pornography gets rid of that risk and says you just get to feel good stuff and you’re by yourself and so you get to control what’s happening and there’s that challenge there yeah fair and I think I I’ve noticed two um the reward that you mentioned with that that can come with pornography tends to be pretty sure right like I think I think risk and reward um like being emotionally intimate with a partner or with your friends is high-res certain higher risk than not um but the reward of that is that intimacy and that connection which is I think what we are actually wired to receive right like I think um as people we have this need for connection and uh it can get distorted pretty quickly I think in terms of sex addiction right um how I you haven’t been at Peaks an incredible amount of time but like how has this worked into kind of how we treat how you treat clients uh here at Peaks yeah yeah I mean we look at it like the treatment for sex addiction is really not that much different than the treatment for you know what we would call typical addiction uh whether it be with substances or yeah um you know it’s uh we find that you know the this idea of kind of this desire for connection and attachment is the same is there just as you know it is for a substance addiction as it is for a sexual addiction and so treatment really doesn’t look that different um and so um you know what I find is different is the is the uh maybe the shame that is brought in around it yeah and the conversation that they’re willing to have is not one that’s as opening group as it is in like an individual session where they’re probably less likely to go into the sexuality conversation in a group group context there’s even though that’s probably where it’s going to help them out yeah but are more willing to go with like their individual therapist yeah talk about it what I think I mean even the things that we’ve mentioned too like attachment style we look at that at Peaks and kind of explore that with people um we also mentioned that you know some on some trauma or um sometimes uh unwanted sexual contact and that sort of thing can lead to these types of behaviors and those are also things that we deal with um because I do think again kind of quoting TJ Woodward from conscious recovery again that you know honestly acting out sexually is it tends to be This brilliant strategy for coping with whatever it is whether it’s this anxious Dutchman Iraq or uh avoidant attachment or insecure attachment um or whether it’s kind of dealing with the pain from trauma or um you know even kind of neglect from childhood and that sort of thing or just um or kind of some stunted development sexually due to Purity culture where one wasn’t able to kind of talk and explore on these domains um we do I think work pretty diligently I think to to work on those underlying issues and kind of um help with that right I kind of I guess I kind of look at it too like this um there’s outside in work to do which is about kind of building what what does sexual sobriety if you will look like and that doesn’t mean not having sex by the way all right really right yeah it’s like it’s a sex positive approach I’m sure um but there’s some outside in like what are the behaviors that have to change what are behaviors that need to be added there’s that also inside out uh Journey that people have to go on as well where they get to kind of explore what are some of these underlying issues and what can kind of relieve some of my desire to kind of act out in these ways too and and I think it’s important to say too it’s not just behavior modification right like we’re not just talking about like how do we behave in a way that makes us feel better about ourselves or how do we behave in a way that aligns more with my values I think it’s it’s how do I because I think in that conversation right is is this idea of you know there’s this term they call sexual incongruence right where if if you have this value of like maybe maybe let’s use Purity right let’s use like abstinence as a value yeah and then you are unable to for whatever reason live up to that value right that’s where cognitive dissonance steps in because you have this this whole gap of like my values don’t matter with my behavior I don’t know what to believe about myself and so um you know I think this stepping into the conversation and talking about um you know what it is you value what it is I ask clients all the time you know I help them establish uh what I call a kingdom right what do you love what do you hate those bad establishes like the kingdom that’s ahead of you that you have in front of you and and what um you know what Behavior if you want to just talk about Behavior what Behavior fits into that Kingdom that Kingdom you have in terms of helping you go towards the things you love and avoiding the things you hate
that may that makes a ton of sense how so put sex addiction into your kingdom metaphor yeah what did people like give a practical example if you could yeah yeah other words yeah so um in that Kingdom metaphor right we have we have this idea of um um like let’s imagine someone as the ruler of the victim right so they they’re in charge of you know how it looks and what’s happening and the you know all that stuff and so they get to pursue the things they loved and they get to avoid the things that that bring them displeasure um and so you know it’s if someone loves um some love sex if someone loves connection if someone loves um you know exploring their sexuality those are things they actually love how do we do that in a way that promotes wholeness and integrity and whatever they want to Define that as so um and then on that dislike or the hate side which is a pretty strong word but on the hate side of stuff like maybe they um I’ll talk to clients about you know the hate the feeling of being lonely the feeling of being by themselves they hate that you know the the disconnection that comes with pornography they hate that aspect of it and so what are the changes we can make to still find those those kind of like fulfillment pieces of it that you can live into and pursue the things that you loved while avoiding the things that really just make you unhappy yeah I mean it’s certainly what I appreciate about what you say is it’s obviously a very um client-centered approach where people um we’re not kind of pushing our values onto somebody and that’s what gets tricky around this too and um I think a lot of early kind of sex addiction treatment kind of came from that Purity culture too um of like get fully abstinent again and cut it back um into what would be a traditional view of sexuality and I think there’s a lot of room to operate in in your kingdom if you will um of healthy sexual behavior and and for some right because it’s so individual it might re-nap sometimes for a period of time yeah like it just like just like we go into you know sepsis addiction like it might mean a complete abstinence of sobriety for a period of time yeah um and so really it’s just kind of person-specific and depends on the client itself yeah that that is an interesting point um because I have I have seen a use that I I can obviously say I’ve asked some clients to do that too where it’s like the the compulsive and obsessive behavior is so intense that um a short-ish period of celibacy just um is a way to kind of hit the reset button and kind of um I think it would be similar to what kids today call a tolerance break or something on like cannabis seats or something where it’s like I gotta take a minute and like kind of yeah and hit the reset button and that does take some time yeah and it also helps kind of make this distinction for them between like that they can still be intimate that it doesn’t mean they have to be sexual right um and Sam at the same time sexuality also doesn’t include physical contact and so you can have you know they can still explore their sexuality and and you know I’d be in Internet relationships that doesn’t mean they have to actually do have sex yeah um and so I think that’s an important distinction because often they you know clients will get into this this framework of like the only way I can you know be intimate with someone is through you know this behavior that I want to stop and so I I don’t know how to actually have relationships you know friendships even right um without without this behavior and so having them make this distinction of like intimacy and physical activity right that’s something that can be really helpful for some yeah in it’s certainly like offering tools to help people learn how to be intimate yeah learn how to identify our emotions so they can share those with other people we have to have a conversation or not be open to learn how to listen yeah I think I mean I think it starts with intimacy with self yeah right like one of my favorite Frameworks to kind of uh work with people uh trying to work through some unwanted Behavior I know you are a fan of it as ifs yeah right which is all about kind of reducing the shame behind um you know parts of ourselves that act in ways we don’t want to yeah and trying to develop curiosity about like what’s the actual desire there like what’s what’s the good yeah and what’s happening right um and that we can we can show compassion towards ourselves in that moment and don’t have to be like you’re doing a bad thing yeah no that’s exactly right I you know I do love to say too that all Behavior makes sense in context and when we can understand our own context of our behaviors and without the judgment and be like okay I see how I got here we can find and Foster some compassion trying to think for ourselves oftentimes yeah all right well um I appreciate this conversation Zach um I think it’s been helpful I think this is an issue that isn’t talked about enough I think it’s in it’s a it’s a thing that a lot of people I think want to talk about and need to talk about but it’s hard to find a space to do that so I appreciate you for coming on and of course um on to your first podcast and uh talked about sex addiction yeah these years talk like NFL football or something that this is probably more important I could probably talk more about this than that okay that’s probably sure all right we said we’ll go ahead and sign off um please find us at peaksrecoverycenters.com or look us up on Google uh and follow us on Facebook with that we are out foreign

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In this episode, Chris Burns brings Jason Friesema to welcome back our returning special guest, KK Fearless! Brooke Perez, founder and President of KK Fearless, sits down with our team and her mom, Melinda Jackson, to speak on their experiences leading up to the creation of KK Fearless, share respect and memories for the ones they have lost, as well as advocating for Bothe the individuals in recovery and their families.

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In this episode, Chris Burns brings Jason Friesema to welcome back Lisa Smith, certified family recovery coach, to speak on parenting in recovery as well as the journey to becoming a heroic parent. Our team shares personal stories in their own journey of parenthood and explains how important healthy family dynamics are for family systems no matter the situation.

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Episode 106Nowhere to Run with Montee BallWatch Nowhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGVpcJVy4ygListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Jason Friesema brings Chris Burns onto the show to speak with our special guest, Montee Ball, former Denver Broncos running back and the University of Wisconsin, hall of fame player. Montee shares his experience playing football at a professional level as well as the dark side of fame that comes from success. Montee shares vulnerability with his struggles with addiction and provides moments in his life that he considers “the basement” of his rock bottom and what he did to make his way back. Montee is a beacon of hope for athletes in recovery and many recovery communities. Find Montee’s book, “Nowhere to Run,” on Amazon for more information.

Talking Points1. Introduction to Montee 2. Mentee’s college career 3. The slippery slope with alcohol 4. Awareness for athletes struggling 5. The power of manifestation 6. Climbing up from rock bottom 7. Nowhere to Run by Montee Ball Quotes

“I know for a fact, and strongly believe, that I was given that stage to speak on something way greater than myself. Something that every single human on the face of this planet is either indirectly or directly impacted by, whether it’s themselves or someone they love. And that’s my mission. Period. 32 years old, and until the day I’m in the ground, this will be my mission.” – Montee Ball

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -106- Transcriptswelcome to another episode of Finding Peaks my name is Jason friesman I’m the chief clinical officer here at Peaks recovery to my left is the founder and president and good friend Chris Burns hey everybody and I could not be more excited about our guests today uh Monte ball has has joined us Monte for those who don’t know let me let me tell you this this is a great guy he is a two-time consensus All-American uh in 2011 and 2012. he also was the second round pick of my favorite team the Denver Broncos back in 2013. he also held the record for the most career rushing touchdowns in NCAA division one unfortunately that was passed I think a couple years later but you had it for a while and then uh a finalist for the Heisman Trophy uh in 2011. I think along with Andrew luck and a couple other guys that are kind of household names so um with that Monte welcome welcome to finding Peaks wow thank you this is uh thank you for the introduction I’m again it’s always an honor and uh it’s a privilege to to get asked to talk and uh just uh share some space with with some folks so thank you for having me yeah it is my pleasure and um and really actually I lived for a while in Wisconsin when I was a kid so I grew up kind of a Badgers fan and then um and a Colorado buff fan if I’m gonna be honest and then uh but Denver Broncos I bleed orange and blue man and uh and when I had the privilege of kind of getting to know you a little better uh back in January at the winter Symposium here in Colorado Springs I was really excited to talk to you but um really pleased to find out that uh you’re an even better guy than you are a football player if I do say so myself and um but it it’s been a journey for you I think so um how about if you kind of talk about your experience of playing for uh a Big Ten how’d you pick Wisconsin maybe we start there yeah so that’s I love the fact that you mentioned that you bleed blue and orange yeah I uh growing up right outside St Louis Missouri I’ve been in Broncos fan my entire life yeah
um grew up with my room all the way from once I started playing football at the age of eight until obviously in high school when I took off to Wisconsin yeah excuse me after high school I uh my room was blue and orange Broncos stuff all over and I wanted to be a Bronco my entire life uh our rooms probably look similar except for the players on my wall were like Steve Watson and John Elway and like you know uh Atwater yeah so yeah those are the guys that I fell in love with the sport because of because of those names right there but to your question I mean man obviously my story writes it’s uh it starts with the game of football it starts with the game of football at the age of eight obviously with little league football my father being my coach um it was uh one of those things where we as a family were just like look um if this is some something you want to do right this is a sport that you want to play then let’s go all in let’s let’s go all in and um and of course I can sit here and go through play-by-play year by year but once I got to high school once my family really started to see that I was really excelling at this sport right like okay he may have opportunities to play at the next level that being Collegiate the Collegiate level my family as close as we are they made a plan we all made a plan when I was 13 14 years old that um if you continue to do what you’re doing in school right hanging around the right people and obviously excelling in the football field then we will pack up our home and we will move to the backyard of whichever campus you select and my family did that my freshman year at the University of Wisconsin-Madison so how did that come about choosing UW yeah um I narrowed it down my choices from Stanford Iowa and Wisconsin um Stanford uh at the time I had a phone call with Harbaugh when he was there and of course I was pretty jacked about it and everything but then I sort of disqualified in a sense uh rather say they didn’t make the cuts due to uh geographically speaking I didn’t want to be too far from Midwest my Midwestern guy um and of course they were talking about some AP classes that I had to take myself
you know thank you I really appreciate the opportunity but some narrative from Iowa Wisconsin and of course when Sean green was there right running at Iowa that was a guy that I really liked I really watched him I really loved their Pro style offense something that we ran in high school of course took two two visits there great great place right great great University um with sports education as well location but once I took my first and only visits at the time to the University of Wisconsin-Madison it was a night game against Ohio State’s um and I mean Big Ten football yeah yeah I mean come on I was I was you know of course they teamed me up with a couple players right obviously player Personnel um we uh went to the game obviously well obviously the players were playing but um I was just hanging around the coaches and the player Personnel guy and I was like this is this is it this is the stage that I want to play on 90 000 people screaming beautiful scenery right chica it’s an isth Miss Madison is you’re looking at two Lakes a lake on each side the education I was like this is a good fit not too far from the St Louis area a five and a half six hour drive so I was like this is this this works out well for me and that’s how it happened I sat there and I was like you know what I want to be a badger I want to be better this is what I thought in the moment I want to be better than Ron Dane I want to I want to be that guy and so I uh it was a it was a pretty quick decision easy decision for me and I’m glad I made that choice nice yeah any uh I was just thinking when you were checking in there Montez as you as you rolled through your earlier years in sport and school did you have any issues with mental health was there any mental health issues that came up when you were kind of engaging in your football career because I know that can be pretty intense and all-encompassing but did you recognize any of that early on early on no I would say in high school you know things are you know I’m a big wide-eyed odd guy things were going great in high school right great uh but once I got to College of course once those stretches started to come about um that being school that being um obviously just a bigger stage right more pressures that come along with performing now um I didn’t really understand those stresses until my junior year so my freshman and sophomore year I didn’t really play a lot I was behind um John clay my freshman year and another guy but then my sophomore year we got this we got this little scat back out of Florida Saint Aquinas down there um St Thomas Aquinas excuse me um James White and I actually was behind him because he had a thousand yard season his freshman year yeah and so going into the second half of my sophomore season I was third string and we went to Iowa to play the Hawkeyes right kinnick Stadium very hostile environment unfortunately uh those two running backs that I mentioned John clay and James White suffered an injury and I remember the running backs coach turning around and looking at me and saying it’s it’s time to put up or shut up yeah put me in the game and I remember it was fourth quarter I caught up a slant route fourth and two extended the change and then two plays later scored the game-winning touchdown and never gave the position back and from that moment I bring that up because that’s when those stresses really started to hit me come junior year when we were fortunate enough to get Russell Wilson the pressures were there obviously I was excelling on the field I I dove head first straight into the partying atmosphere right um and of course in hindsight I know that I did that now because I was dealing with those stressors of okay how am I going to manage School how am I going to manage you know being present in my family obviously uh football that how demanding it is my body is tired I’m I’m dealing with trying to just go to class and not raise my hand because I just don’t want for people to know I’m in there all those social anxieties were really getting to me and obviously as we know that alcohol is a slippery slope and really took me into that depression right um I felt that it was my best friend I started to really develop that relationship with the bottle my junior year in college and many people don’t know this my junior year in college was my best year on the field but it was actually my worst year off the field immensely yeah and it seems like we kind of talk I get this language from a guy named TJ Woodward who wrote the book conscious recovery he talks about um alcohol being a brilliant strategy to kind of cope with your stressors and and you you illustrate this perfectly that you know you had your best year as a running back obviously your Heisman finalist but really on the inside like for a minute you’re getting away with it like it’s working exactly I’m so glad you mentioned that because I talk about that all the time now where it’s I now when I look back it’s it’s almost now I wish that I would have like experienced a decline on the football field to able to solve those red flags right and done a self-diagnostic checkup okay what’s going on what am I doing I must not be taking care of my body off the field I must not be hanging around the right people right being present Etc right but that’s not the case I was excelling even more on the football field and nothing was really showing me in the moment at least what I think now nothing was really showing me that I need to make some changes and so when I always talk to people about that I say it’s alcohol is is an addiction period any type of addiction obviously drugs and or alcohol it’s it’s so tricky how it works and how it just Praise on your mind and shows you things that really aren’t the truth just so that it can continue to be your best friend and obviously hindsight in 2020 I’m able to say that now but in the moment I was uh thought that I was living my best life and you bring up such a phenomenal Point too I think for the viewers and it’s important to see it’s like because in my recovery before I ever got into the party scene or picked up a drink for myself you know I suffered a tremendous amount of anxiety my right leg sat there and did this and the first time I drank it called me out and I like how you mentioned that because the anxiety came first and the partying came second and it’s hard to get enough I quote Dr Gabor mate all the time but it’s with that stuff it’s all it’s hard to get enough of something that almost works you know and he says that all the time and I’m like that isn’t that the truth and the only thing that works better is an authentic recovery process of which we’re in now but the question I have for you is when you’re on the college campus now I know today in 2023 it’s far different than 2011 with respect to mental health awareness but is there a lot of that kind of talk are there resources do is it is there anybody outspoken about this because it seems like it’s a huge issue not just on college campuses but really everywhere and for all college students great question and I think you nailed it where it’s it’s of course back then and back then as if it was that long ago so 10 12 years ago there were resources of course but I believe that there wasn’t that much of a there wasn’t a stage right for people or rather someone really saying we need to do this for our student athletes right or rather a staff member really just coming out and about and saying okay I’m going to talk with the the leadership and we’re going to allocate funds to this program that really wasn’t going on during that time and of course I only know Wisconsin and and again I’m not saying that Wisconsin dropped the ball and that because they most definitely did not um I’m just mentioning this because I think once Kevin Love came out and spoke about what he was dealing with right someone of that of at that level I think it really just blew open these doors right of okay wait what are we doing for our student athletes yeah you know what I mean like what are we of course just our athletes in general but when student athletes like what sort of programs do we have for them what sort of messaging are we providing for them and I think back then that wasn’t the case but just like you mentioned today in 2023 that is for sure the conversations that are happening and I think that it’s great that it’s happening better late than never yeah and I I just feel like we that you can’t have too much of this conversation right of talking about what it is that you’re doing off the field who are you spending your time around what are some of the things stressors that you’re dealing with here are some resources that are right here in your backyard for you right in just a simple conversation like that can as you both know right can help out so many people and alleviate so much tension and stress within folks lives yeah absolutely no I really appreciate that response and it’s it’s nice to know too that at least we’re turning the corner with a lot of that stuff um it can be really difficult when you get to college campus I’m sure and you’ll talk about this but you get it as you start accomplishing all these things I can remember being close to you know I grew up in Tucson Arizona so I was close to the University of Arizona Wildcat program not their football team but their basketball team and I remember being a kid and just if I could get into their space two feet away from them they were so revered I mean people just look up and praise and a young athlete like myself really looks up to people like yourself and so I have to imagine and I was chatting with Jason a little bit before the show in addition to the lack of resources even just 10 short years ago you have this issue with um a lot of uh not only anxiety that comes up as a result of the pressure but you have a lot of what we call kind of I hate to say this word but yes men around you you get a lot of people that are just like and I was the same way I’m like a groupie for athletes you know I love watching great athletes perform and getting behind them and I praise everything they do and that has to be an interesting inflection point when you’re going through um you know some of the partying and some of the drinking and the anxiety and then everybody’s praising you there’s oftentimes a narrative inside and I think you maybe mentioned it how alcohol tends to lie to you but a narrative that we keep going that there’s nothing wrong here you know yeah you that that’s I’m so glad you brought that up because I I talk about that so much and and I always preface it with I understand how how the public may not be able to digest that immediately to understand that that Fame can bring so many stressors in your life right because when you think about Fame you think of money you think of like life is great right it’s all it’s all good but just like you said right you get those people around you that are just Yes Men right they just they don’t there’s no guard rails for you right and and when I speak on this especially when I speak to elementary students and obviously high school students I talk about your friendships they are so important because not only are you trying to uplift your friend right you’re trying to tell them you’re trying to help them accomplish their goals they should be doing the same for you right they should be challenging you saying hey maybe this is something you shouldn’t be doing maybe we should go this direction right those are friends those are friendships when you get to that stardom level when things are going great right when the money the the women the everyone loves you you get that crowd that for one just loves what you’re able to provide for them in the partying atmosphere and also too just people who just love to say that they’re near you they’re by you that they’re friends with you but don’t really care about what it is that you’re doing to your body or what where you’re spending your time at and of course obviously you have your own autonomy right it’s up to you to figure that out but your social atmosphere is extremely important as well and so yeah you nailed it to where it’s it’s when that Fame came my junior year um I wasn’t prepared for it um I really wasn’t where going to class and having people bombard me right to for photos or or autographs and then being pulled in this direction for interviews being pulled in that direction where it’s like a at moments I just wanted to be a student I just wanted to be just present in the moment and just go to class and just be but um that fast track lifestyle um not being prepared for it’s obviously set myself up for for a crash so then Monte just keep advancing your story so then you have this tremendous season in 2011. and your Heisman finalist and obviously you could have gone into the draft at that point probably and been drafted relatively high and uh started your professional career what brought you back to Wisconsin for your senior year um again I’m an open book and uh for me it was uh I the main reason that talking to my agent I just didn’t feel prepared yet although looking back on it I should have left but um to be honest I I I didn’t want to leave the partying yet I didn’t as as you know I I kicked myself in the butt for that um I did but I felt comfortable in my scene of of partying and obviously excelling on the field and and just being around the people that I was around um and so to the point of an addiction right um I I felt comfortable drowning out to my anxieties and stressors in the area that I was in um I did not want to move on I didn’t I wasn’t ready yet and uh and of course I think things would things may have been different if I if I would have left the draft in 2011 after that season but it’s um I felt comfortable I felt comfortable um drowning myself out with alcohol yeah that makes sense man and obviously you had a great 2020 2012 season as well uh and set you up to be drafted um by your favorite team I mean that seems like a dream come true in a lot of ways to like get to come to Denver and uh you know get a chance to get on the Field at Mile High man that’s so cool absolutely and again I I of course uh there’s a I’m I’m extremely grateful for the opportunities that I’ve had there are way more Great Moments than bad moments of course but I do believe that again when I share my story we have to share it all and I did struggle mentally um in 2011 and 2012 but it was still excelling on the field and was able yes to get drafted by my favorite team um I still remember the day I I chose I did not want to go to New York um for the draft because you can only have like a plus one or whatever A plus two and I wanted to have my family and friends right um to celebrate this moment and so I just uh rented out um a banquet room and um in a hotel in Madison Wisconsin and knew that I wasn’t going to go first round although I rented it out for those two days I was like ah guys first round most likely not but day two came about my agent was like all right you most definitely should get picked up in in round two or three today and of course as I’m sitting there everyone’s having a good time behind me my anxieties are through the roof my phone is propped up and uh 303 number came in and of course with the 9 phone is at Denver Colorado and I jumped up out of my seats uh I started hitting my dad he jumped up looking for my mom I turned around my mom was behind me she was already crying uh and I answered the phone and it was John Elway and um you know at the age of 21 22 at the time 22 uh getting a phone call from John Elway and of course he said uh would you like to be a Bronco and I just tears everywhere I’m like dude I just I just did it and um and of course in this moment I always share this where it’s yes there were times in college where my family they were like okay let’s have some conversations with him because we see some things are going a little differently for him within his personality um but of course I didn’t want to listen to my family right I was like no everything’s fine I’m good and so I bring that up because once I was drafted it was almost like that moment where I looked at my family I was like see look I told you I got this under control everything yeah everything is fine I do not have a strong relationship with alcohol because if I did I wouldn’t be drafted by my favorite team and so it was uh there were times when I could have changed I guess or made some made some different choices but um again excelling um on the football field didn’t I didn’t open my eyes to that but yes drafted to my favorite team was able to obviously come to Denver Colorado land there and um I remember meeting all the guys and of course I was Starstruck beating Von Miller meeting all these other greats right Champ Bailey was still on the team during then and my dad was a huge Bailey fan huge but of course when I had the opportunity to meet Peyton Manning uh that that’s very difficult to explain um when you come across a person a player like that for the first time being young myself and I remember the first thing I said to him I was like dude I was I remember I was like 12 playing Madden 02 or whatever what playing with you
so dream come true absolutely most definitely dream control yeah it was it when you transitioned from and I appreciate you checking in with that would it would it I mean I I probably never sit in the presence of someone else who has that type of story but when you when you transition from Wisconsin that senior year I’m assuming you had a pretty thick peer group around you whether they were right size or not you had this counter balancing opportunity to kind of brush into some peers and did you feel like when you transitioned to Denver Broncos um because I have this story in my recovery where I’m surrounded with a lot of people and a lot of great things but I feel so alone and so isolated did you start to feel that disconnection pretty quickly or was it um did it take some time because now you’re a professional in the college scene kind of moves away and so it almost looks like it almost feels like a leg at the table gets pulled out and now you’re holding up your table with two hands yeah yeah I like that it’s uh yes to your point it hit me pretty quickly um because it was almost as if I I packed up my my my best friend my alcohol is in in my luggage and and took it with me carried it with me to Colorado because it was something that I never addressed and so of course I didn’t think that I had to address it but if but being 22 with now going from forty dollars my bank account to x amount of dollars in my bank accounts it’s it’s I can go anywhere on the planet now I can you know those life pitfalls are are right there right there they’re greater and so for me I dove head first into that because I felt lonely I did feel lonely um I didn’t have any family here of course I didn’t have anyone to lean on so I thought um and I just did not take care of my body I didn’t um and and I always tell people it was most definitely a wonderful opportunity to even put on the uniform um as a Bronco um I do wish that my career would have went differently but um I always joke around and say you know I can joke around about it now but I joke around and say you know I had a cup of coffee with the Broncos [Laughter] yeah but uh being able to play side by side with those names that I mentioned right um I still have some friends to this day who are on the team right they’re going to be lifelong friends to me um and obviously playing in the Super Bowl my rookie year in New York City obviously we we lost but again just to to play against uh Russell Wilson was um again a dream come true yeah that’s right I always forget that you played in the Super Bowl yeah that’s pretty cool man you’ve kind of accomplished it all and even though you did a coffee break with the Broncos man you’ve really you really connected with a lot I mean we’re a part of a lot of um a lot of winning at the very least absolutely and and seriously man it’s I always it’s such a blessing looking back on it and talking about it because when I talk to children in elementary schools in high schools that being teens I talk about this the power of manifestation right um you know what are the chances of of an eight-year-old telling his father that I want to be a running back for the Denver Broncos and play in the Super Bowl and then get drafted by them and I remember I tweeted out the photo of me wearing the jersey and then being able to play in a Super Bowl my rookie year right so I always talk about this power of manifestation which just comes from within right of do not let anyone try to tell you you can’t do anything that that’s that’s really what it comes down to do not let anyone tell you you can’t do anything because as cliche as it sounds if you set your mind to it you can accomplish it and and I and I and I tell them I’m one I I did it so you can do it as well and so I have so many messages that I share um around addiction recovery and power manifestation and obviously of course mental health um but it’s it’s something that I I don’t take lightly so Monty I think that brings us to what what was kind of your low moment like what what made you be like you know what actually I gotta look in the mirror and make some changes because this isn’t going right yeah yeah that that’s a that’s a very easy decision so once I my second year as a Bronco um I tore my groin against the Cardinals home game and we had the St Louis Rams when they were in St Louis uh about six weeks seven weeks out so of course right back at home I tried to rush back PT right I was like let’s go let’s go let’s get more PT I got to get back for this game first game of the St Louis game when they were in St Louis tour my groin again and then placed on IR well placed on IR I only had to be at the facility for two hours a day and I did not travel with the team so of course I had all this Freedom that I obviously utilized to party and to drink of course and so that moment I would say and that’s in 2014 in November is when I really hit that low which I thought it was the lowest part but it wasn’t there was most definitely a basement that I didn’t know about so come 2015 I sort of saw the writing on the wall right that’s I’m on The Chopping Block I was getting a lot of playing time during the uh preseason games yeah a lot of playing time and I was not a good sign it was definitely not a good size yeah it’s okay I’m I’m on I’m 50 51 52 53 right uh they they are I I I’m on the chopping block and so I saw the writing on the wall so I started to panic right like I I know that it’s gonna happen where am I going to go well obviously once the day happened that I was released um not a good day for me um not a good day for me at all um but then of course I was picked up by the Patriots put on the P Squad and didn’t have the opportunity um really to to get on that to get on the plane excuse me the active roster um and of course the Broncos sent us home uh and went on to play the Panthers in the Super Bowl so of course my bottom would have been around that time the basement where I was angry at every single person around me um everyone um I was I was having outbursts uh to my family um especially my dad um I was uh just not a good brother not a good son not a good friend and of course not a good boyfriend um at that time and so every single person around me at the end December to February of 2015 2016. um you know received a very angry Monte I was angry at everyone else except myself because of course in that moment with alcohol I was blaming the coaching staff I was blaming the play calling I was blaming everything else except what I’m doing off the field how serious was I taking it and I wasn’t taking it serious enough of course so in the moments of course with that anger with the alcohol with the I felt embarrassed right um released from my favorite team after two seasons um I took that frustration out on someone very close to me who trusted me um and it took a very long time for me to forgive myself for that um and uh of course an open book um a domestic violence situation that happened in the hotel in Madison Wisconsin um of course I was completely uh blacked out drunk and sort of came to when I was in jail um over the weekend so I was arrested on a Friday like at 2 A.M and of course had to stay the weekend over jail to see the judge on Monday and of course on Sunday I watched the Broncos beat the Panthers in Super Bowl 50 while I was in jail um and I remember the room uh the cell mates that were in there with me uh were saying you know that’s supposed to be you up there you’re supposed to be a role model to us role models to our youth um and I remember in the moment I was like okay this is the popcorn the kettle black we are literally literally in the same time
yeah but but I do remember turning around right and uh facing the wall because of course I didn’t want to watch the game um and I uh you know I started tearing up because they’re right they’re right um I I had opportunities that many folks haven’t had um of course dealing with an addiction but I had resources that I could have leaned on um not blaming myself right for not utilizing them but there were moments where I could have I could have um you know changed my path and so uh that’s a moment that’ll always stick with me that’s that’s the bottom that’s the basement of the basement of my bottom when my feet hit that cold floor and I’ll never forget that feeling of that jail cell uh I literally told myself what the heck is going on like how do I go from just two years ago literally just 24 months ago 26 months ago to getting drafted to now in jail and so uh vax was the moment where I was like okay obviously something’s not right yeah so how did you then work on yourself and I’m trying to be mindful of time and I’m sure it’s a bigger story that we can fit in right here but like yeah so yeah no like okay so yeah talk about how you got how you started to come out of that basement that’s a that’s a basement yeah I’m very fortunate uh you know I I’m blessed I should say so to have a really good you know nuclear family I guess uh my my parents and my sisters were were very close um very close and uh they fed it to me straight they said you need to stop drinking um look at what just happened you are acting uncharacteristically something you have never engaged in before and now look at what has happened not only to your football career but obviously your image of just trying to get a job um after the game is over and so for me it was uh it was difficult at first of wanting to listen right to be receptive to those words um but I would say it took me about six weeks to really say Okay um I I need to go speak to someone um and so I jumped into intensive outpatient I jumped into IOP um four days a week for those three hours a day be up for eight weeks um and then after that of course it was individual therapy group therapy as well and family where after that then I just took off with just individual therapy with my therapist who I still see to this day um and that was in 2016 and of course the the frequency was higher but obviously now I see him about once a month um but he’s he’s my guy and so for me I know that there are a million ways up this hill right um but I’m a strong advocate for um obviously IOP um what all goes into IOP right individual therapy group therapy family therapy um that is something that I wanted it took time for me to get into that but with my family pushing me into that door um I was able to do it right there in the heart of Madison Wisconsin wow what a humbling experience to walk in there and it just speaks to your willingness to enter into that recovery process and two I can relate a lot to the early stages and I’m always going to be the guy to throw compassion in the middle of your story but you know it’s really difficult sometimes to find the means to or an access point to get help I mean it’s the last thing I we meet people oftentimes in much much more arduous situations that are like what do you see here but I think our brains do this really unique thing is they keep us really safe and so I can really relate to your to the onset of that that basement which is like this is your fault we go into anger because to go in to go into the truth which is I feel hurt I’m sad I’m broken I’m hopeless that’s to come apart and so I can really relate to really coming out especially before I got into recovery with a lot of anger and a lot of rage and how did I get here and I just wanted to throw that out there for you too because I think sometimes I think I think sometimes we get into kind of like blaming and shaming ourselves in these initial phases because we didn’t see it clearly but to see it clearly sometimes is not as safe as one might lead themselves to believe really I mean that that’s exactly what it is I was I was hurt right I but I didn’t know how to process that I my entire life up into that point right it was you don’t wear my feelings on my sleeve or where my heart on my sleeve right anger produced great numbers for me um and so I really developed a great relationship with anger because when I was angry on the field we won when I was anger on the field I had a great game um and you know I’m not blaming the sports of course but that is what I was that’s what I developed that’s what I that’s what that was me and so of course that bled over into my life and that was the only emotion that I was comfortable with expressing when I was hurt when I was sad when I knew that okay no one forced me to take a drink no one forced me to to be a terrible person to my partner right um I didn’t want to face the music in the moment and so the anger was easy anger was easy to to show yeah absolutely I could totally relate to that yeah how did you when did you discover that hey this is maybe some depression going on it’s not just the alcohol but like there’s other things going on here it didn’t all that didn’t go away when he quit drinking like you you have a long path to do an IOP and therapy and like uh obviously it wasn’t just about the drinking sure um I didn’t learn anything about that until that process right because I think you know growing up I obviously I obviously knew of the word depression but I didn’t know any signs of depression what may or may not go into your depression um and so I learned all that throughout the process of therapy and of course and of course that process was like peeling back the onion right getting more raw raw so many more emotions coming out of me and I I was able to look back and say wow I I was depressed when I was forcing myself to smile during interviews just so that my parents wouldn’t wouldn’t know that something was wrong with me right I always thought about that during interviews smile smile look good right look happy just so they think that I’m happy right um I never thought about that until the therapeutic process that I was in and so for me that depression in hindsight I know for a fact was playing a huge part in my downfall starting in 2011. um when I felt a lot more comfortable being isolated yeah being isolated I wasn’t one to consume a significant amount of alcohol while I was by myself but that process started in 2011 in my bedroom in my uh in the apartment that I was in and so I that’s when that depression really started to to get me and of course it was a snowball right after that the more I started to drink the further I went down it um I started to push my family away started to make up excuses of not going to their house for dinner um and just because I I knew that my mom wouldn’t know um and so that’s that’s that therapeutic process to me as I talk about it is uh I’m sitting here thinking about it for me going in completely oblivious to how it was going to be I was under the impression and of course every therapist does it differently I was lucky enough to match the first cry with a great therapist but I thought that the conversation was going to be you know 95 about the bottle five percent about relationships but it was completely completely flipped we talked a lot about my relationships with my family which I have great relationships with my friends as well um and of course the most important in my relationship with myself and um and I I did not I did not feel good about myself I didn’t I did not feel good about myself because I I felt like I would leave you know left my family let my let my family down in moments of course I obviously wants the really big fall happen that’s what I felt that I let them down that I harnessed our name that I’m a terrible human being but um that therapeutic process really allowed for me to to heal man to heal and of course I always share this I’m not the victim um I I still to this day pray that the person that I harmed is on their healing process I have made amends um but I I know that I’m not the victim in the act that I committed um but there were things that I was really struggling with in journaling yeah I wanna I mean I’m just sitting here and I’m looking at all these accomplishments on the left side of her screen here and I just want to be one of the first to just affirm you for what I think is your greatest accomplishment which is being in long-term recovery having overcome the adversity you did and the message you’re putting out into this world is profound my friend from the bottom of my heart just thank you thank you for what you’re doing to make movement not just in your world but everybody’s world I think this energy that you’re creating is significant and it has a ripple effect that ultimately and in my opinion may be much better than being a running back for the Denver Broncos changes the world one day at a time so thank you thank you I hear so many stories of you know this person left the league because he dealt with substances you never hear about him again yeah these stories don’t happen often and I just I feel so honored to be graced with your presence and your energy and your motivation and your spirit and your story and your path it’s it’s uh it’s contagious it’s contagious thank you so much for that it’s um I I say that I you know now I I see what I’m here for um I really and I really mean this I I know that of course obviously yes my dream was to wear the gold jacket right and be in the hall of fame um in in Canton right but I know for a fact and strongly believe that I was given that stage to speak on something way greater than myself something that every single human being on the face of this planet is either indirectly or directly impacted by whether it’s themself or someone they love and and that’s that’s my mission period 32 years old and until the day I’m in the ground this will be my mission I love it too Monte and I think you know to your point too Chris like so many people you know have this struggle and then yeah they disappear and they don’t use this as an opportunity to say uh courageously that there’s a path forward through this and really honestly the the irony too is it does help the shame to tell your story doesn’t necessarily feel great all the time but like um there’s so much power Monte what you said and so much is relatable and and you don’t have to be a Heisman finalist to feel like you’ve let your family down or to feel like you’re the worst person on the planet or you’ve tarnished your family name that’s common to a lot of people and and walking through that and learning how to forgive yourself and then love yourself again that relationship uh I think could be so incredibly powerful um with yeah with a with our last couple minutes like or moments like if you could just share about your book that you wrote I think pretty recently uh in the last few years yeah absolutely thank you um it’s on Amazon Nowhere to Run um I always tell folks to type in my name as well uh for that but um really quick about that it’s it’s you will rarely ever see me market it or anything like that because when I was going throughout my therapeutic process uh earlier on my therapist said he said look I can tell that you’re really struggling with opening up um I know that this is not something that you are familiar with just giving your background right with playing in a very violent sport that’s just not what we do and so he said how about you just Journal me just write write some things down and of course I was like write what he was like anything and I just got to writing and I really would get into these moments of of it was almost like a meditation where I was just it was just me in the paper and I once I looked up I had 88 000 words um and I of course right teamed up with an editor right just because I can write a few paragraphs doesn’t mean I’m a writer um and they helped me out throughout the process and so my book nowhere to run when I’m discovering your true self right is is in in the midst of an addiction excuse me is a moment a time for me where I was able to just let it out right just the therapeutic process of of what all happened putting all my feelings out there and not caring about the Judgment that is to come um and so I encourage so many other people to to figure out what your path is towards recovery mine was therapy and journaling I’m a huge advocate on both I know that there are a million ways up that hill but those were mine and so as you go about reading my book um I do talk about it all from being a young child to being on Section 8 with my with my parents um to high school obviously College in the NFL and even afterwards um and and I just encourage a lot of people who may be struggling with things that they’re struggling with to to get a copy to get a copy because um just like what you shared it’s it’s you don’t have to be in Heisman finalist you don’t have to be a second one on draft pick my message is addiction does not discriminate it does not discriminate and for those eight years of my life when I was actively using I was always telling myself I wasn’t going to be that one it’s not going to get me it’s not going to get me well it stuck up on me well Monte I’m just I just want to thank you again for joining us today I I I’m glad we got to make this work out um took it took a minute um and uh I’m just really grateful um and some of the uh sign us out now um uh thank you all for joining us on our episode today thank you Chris as well for uh co-hosting um please follow us on uh Facebook um Instagram Tick Tock I think we have stuff our podcast yeah wherever your podcast and uh with that we are out

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Episode 105Reading and Understanding Outcome DataWatch Nowhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0Fdh6tCToUListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Brandon Burns brings on Jason Friesema as well as Lauren Atencio to open a deep conversation into the very important topic, outcome data. Our team transparently shares outcome data relevant to Peaks and the industry and takes the time to debate how these outcomes should be influencing our decisions within treatment and beyond.

Talking Points1. Introduction to outcome data 2. How the data influences treatment 3. Common misunderstandings of outcomes data 4. Understanding successful outcomes 5. Personal responsibility 6. How to measure success 7. Final thoughts Quotes

“We are habitual creatures, right? I always tell this to the clients if I have a pattern of behavior that I have been practicing for over 20 years. I go to treatment for 30 days, and then I’m like, ‘I’m good after that; how am I expecting to change a pattern of behavior that I have been practicing for that long, over a course of 30 days? It goes to this place of thinking patterns if I have a way that I think and I stay in my shame. I ruminate, and then I go to treatment, I’m like, ‘Okay, this is starting to get better, and then I move out of treatment, I move out of care completely, and I start going back to my life— again, habitual creature— I’m going to fall back into those thinking patterns.”– Lauren Atencio, Clinical Director.

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -105- Transcriptsmy name is Brandon Burns and I’m the chief executive officer at Peaks recovery centers and the host today for finding Peaks and today we are here to talk about outcomes specifically we will be highlighting Peaks recovery Center’s third party analysis of our treatment-wide outcomes both within and Beyond the walls of Peaks recovery centers for those of you not familiar with third-party outcome data collection we spoke with president and founder Joanna Conti of Vista research and Conquer Addiction on episode 28 and I invite you to watch that episode of you have not already seen it to better understand how these third-party relationships work and the importance of them within treatment cultures most important to our discussion today is not just the data being presented but the challenges ahead of us for producing and replicating replicating external strategies for wellness Marcus Aurelius once wrote to himself and among the things you turn to these two that things have no hold on the soul they stand there unmoving outside of it disturbance comes only from within from our own perceptions and two that everything you see will soon alter and cease to exist think of how many changes you’ve already seen the world is nothing but change our life is only perception the takeaway here is that the external world is constantly in flux change is happening all around us for example the loss of a loved one a pet a career your car your possessions even your safety nothing external is guaranteed to us our internal peace is fragmented only when our perception of the external seeps into our soul our divine Consciousness or however you wish to see the internal as much as peak’s recovery Center’s desires to create the Magic Bullet for wellness we too are in conflict with the external world we need more resources to hire more staff to treat not just more people but to treat them with quality and compassion insurance companies on the other hand see the world through low-cost and high volume as such our externalization of strategies in the absence of the Silver Bullet are hopeful sometimes at best but our internal desire to preserve quality and compassion has remained unchanged our challenges cannot stand in front of the commitment the external May frustrate us but it cannot deter us from the mission of saving lives contemporaneous to this we further look to explore what it means for each individual however they are suffering in the world to take this opportunity to reflect on where he or she’s power truly lies across all conversations of Wellness Faith philosophy and so forth it feels clear that where any one person’s control lies is within oneself to reach out to treatment program like Peaks is One external strategy that will support your internal Wellness through its medical and clinical culture but we cannot walk with you beyond its walls for example to achieve Wellness from depression anxiety trauma substance abuse requires a deep dive into the arena of discomfort and acceptance that treatment is just the beginning a Trailhead if you will the path forward will not be linear but the path is yours to walk it further requires both motivation and discipline to take one step at a time toward internal healing and today we discuss how to balance the responsibilities between the treatment world and the individual’s responsibility toward the path of Wellness
and I’m joined today by our chief clinical Officer Jason friezma LPC Lac all the clinical things and our Clinical Director for our men’s campus Lauren atencio Lac lpcc nearly all the clinical things as We’ve joked about in the past to discuss this in very important topic so let’s take this opportunity to get to know each other to balance these responsibilities and let’s dive right into it well here we are again both of you already introduced already did the intro yeah we were here you guys were a great supportive job for that yeah you did great really liked what you said about that yeah I’m really looking forward to your feedback on the other side okay yeah a hindsight view of the introduction absolutely so here we are today bringing outcomes daringly we’re gonna dare greatly today okay wow and bring forward Peaks recovery Center’s outcomes out into the fold and walk through it and per the introduction the thing where you know that I’m curious about balancing today right are you know we’re going to Showcase positive outcomes we’re going to Showcase outcomes that could be perceived as pour out comes at the end of the day but you know really at the end of the day there are extraordinary external pressures on the resources of Peaks recovery centers we work in a Managed Care System right we are responsible to the payers right and you know what does that mean for example right like well you have an individual session and now you got to spend 30 to 45 minutes documenting that session right and creating the paper trail to showcase that we did the thing right with the insurance company so that they pay us at the end of the day also we have to on a weekly basis if not every few days come up with utilization reviews and showcase these Services need to continue to be authorized so we can achieve the best value proposition for the patient in front of us right but one of those challenges that exists is no matter what the medical necessity looks like we seem to bump up against a reality out there that is we are no longer going to provide or allow services to be rendered at this place the patient needs to be in lease restrictive care possible even if we know the least restrictive care possible is a relapse a poor outcome just waiting on the other side of it at the end of the day and I think charitably the insurance companies as well too you know Lauren we were talking before the episode sometimes we’re looking at a person in front of us and we know they’re not invested in this right and they’re not committed to the project and those sort of things and we’ll get more into that later but I think balancing the external strategies against the resources we need not just to provide more care to more people but to provide quality and compassion and care to the individual and in addition to that in a world of our own limited resources and ability to nurture the individual down the path beyond the walls of Peaks recovery center is right we do have this thing of personal responsibility that we’ve also talked about on this show and how much motivation and discipline is required at the individual level to really get into something called recovery and into Wellness at the end of the day and I think not just as for our patient demographic but I think we as a staff live that ourselves whether you know we’re at the CrossFit gym getting told things by the trainer or you know meet out on the trails running around and that sort of thing um I think it exists within all of us to highlight that you know you know at the end of the day we all kind of suffer but we are all individually motivated as well too and so I bring that into the fold even though I briefly spoke about it in the introduction because that’s what we’re trying to balance and navigate right here the introspection and responsibility of a treatment center at the same time the introspection and responsibility of the individual participating in treatment and how do we move forward toward outcomes in a world where there is no Silver Bullet I know Lauren at the end of the day if you could take a good old Hammer crack him on the head and fix it we would have done that already right as a reality and our lack of ability to do that also shouldn’t take away from like the compassion and the approach each and every day as well too because we are committed professionals right at the end of the day we don’t necessarily have to do agency work we could be in private practice we could be doing a variety of different things but for some reason we stay and we continue the mission forward to save lives so I don’t uh I can dive right into the data but um you guys want to color in anything in there feeling something burning inside that you want to tell the viewers right off the bat yeah I mean I think I think data is interesting and I know we’re going to go over kind of our Vista surveys and I know you’ve had Joanna Conti uh on this podcast um I think a couple times and I I just um I find our data to be really helpful and um I interact with like our surveys all the time actually probably to a fault um but it does because it speaks to something um it gives tangible explanations for things that can seem intangible you know what I mean and and I think kind of as a whole we are looking to address people’s underlying trauma and underlying shame and underlying lack of purpose um and then it’s hard to squeeze that into motivational interviewing and CBT and solution focused therapy and so to have some sort of measure to say hey these these aspects are on track and then these aspects maybe are off track I think um I find it to be invigorating
like you said Jason something tangible also gives you know our staff the ability to even see like oh this is why I’m doing this this is where this is what we’re fighting for because it can be when we look at depression when we look at substance use it it can be a pretty daunting thing to look at clinically you know are they going to get better are we helping are they helping themselves and so just looking at as a whole what outcomes look like to be able to validate Us in some kind of way because therapy is not as validating we don’t know all the time that people are growing and then we also know that they’re really growing and so I really like to be able or it’s really cool to be able to see just what our clients are doing and and how the outcomes look beautiful let’s dive into it so of course on our episodes um you know somewhere between like uh being charitable and straight up trashing it when we think about monotherapeutic approaches to care just ssris alone to treat major depressive disorder right or using cognitive behavioral therapy alone to treat major depressive disorder uh it’s if I’m recalling the history with like Dr elardi episodes it’s something like 85 of all people experiencing major depression in America are treated with the ssris or snris alone and something like only five to ten percent more of the population is being treated with a you know a talk therapy approach like cognitive behavioral therapy alongside ssris so I think it’s important to note that you know just to recapitulate those points that we are not attacking um that ssris for example cannot be efficacious or even life-saving what we are highlighting is that ssris as a monotherapeutic intervention are incapable of resolving a complex heterogeneous condition the disorder major depression is complex and requiring many different approaches and thus the extraordinary reduction in depressive symptoms showcased in our outcomes here at Peaks there are sort of a poly therapeutic approach that we’ll get into um most so the University College of London released just to recapitulate these past points their meta-analysis in July of 2022 that challenged The Narrative that depression has anything to do with serotonin neurotransmitters uh if this were the case depression would be cure and I think and we know most professionals would acknowledge these findings but the issue comes about when the general public believes the issue is resolvable in the way um and the way in which seems to be showcased through ssris so to quote the University College London study they say the general public widely believes that depression has been convincingly demonstrated to be the result of Serotonin or other chemical abnormalities and this belief shapes how people understand their moods leading to a pessimistic outlook on the outcome of depression and negative expectancies about the possibility of self-regulation of mood and before diving into it I just want to talk about the cognitive behavioral therapy approach where generally speaking you need about 12 weeks to administer it some now there’s this like intense cognitive behavioral therapy we won’t go into it but per the studies you generally need 12 weeks of talk therapy at least once per week over that period to start resolving what are the mood issues right and starting in giving the individual access to self-regulation the fundamental assumption is that a thought precedes a mood therefore learning to substitute healthy thoughts for negative thoughts will improve a person’s move mood self-concept behavior and physical state so I think all of this research is out there and available to the public at any given time uh where you can roll through the monotherapeutic values 15 to 30 efficacy of ssris held alone never mind all of the consequences of taking those medications right major depression take a surprise the symptomology of that can be increased anxiety okay maybe you insert snris or whatever to help navigate that but we’re just pushing the monotherapeutic value back and forth and as we’ll showcase within our own data sets here these medications clearly do not uh at least greatly support individuals in long-term treatment outcomes at the end of the day and that’s visible within the data sets the meds alone are not going to get them through this historically speaking and so at Peaks never mind all the insurance stuff and noise we’ve really tried to come up with this monotherapeutic or excuse me poly therapeutic approach of yes medications but they take four to six weeks to achieve efficacy if they achieve efficacy at all what are we doing in the meantime we have talk therapy we’re going to do the cognitive behavioral therapy thing right we’ve inserted a movement team because we’re trying to promote not exercise in the have to go the jam bench press through all the tough things right but to just move and to walk around and to get some sunshine on your face and these types of things that Dr alardi has brought in that he even said it sounds like Grandma could have given us this advice to you know kind of get well at the end of the day and I think that you know as well too and we can get into it from like a future outcomes perspective when we think about you know our our phones and TV screens and that sort of thing right how much of that is impacting the individual and so how relevant is it really to remove those devices from the individual because it’s a part of the process of suffering right and coming at it we seem to at least within a 30 to 45 day modality and also our extended IOP program seemed to arrive at some pretty impressive results before the individual walks out the door and goes on their Journey off on their own with the toolkit in hand right and we’ll talk about the impressive data out that going out the door and then sort of this sharp follow-up that seems to take place on the other side where we’ll hopefully try to navigate this kind of personal responsibility thing but the progress during treatment so 71 of all clients who come into Peaks recovery centers in these surveys this data set is over a three-year period from I believe 2020 to the present if not the whole historical 2018 to the present period but 71 percent of clients reported experiencing depressive symptoms at their intake survey and of clients who took the survey again prior to discharge only 13 were reporting symptomology so from day one to the last day of Peaks recovery centers per the surveys there’s an 82 percent reduction in symptomology and against the backdrop of monotherapeutic values that’s a major victory same is true for clients in progress with anxiety systems and so to be clear for the viewers out there the surveys are the phq-9 for the depression the Gad 7 for or gad7 for anxiety 69 report uh symptoms of anxiety at the intake server survey prior to discharge 16 it’s a 77 percent reduction in anxiety symptoms trauma responses the pcl6 is the survey taken at the time of admission 68 percent report uh symptoms of trauma symptoms and prior to discharge that drops to 20 for a 71 percent reduction and then client progress on overall feelings uh between terrible and poor 71 percent report feeling terrible or poor at the time of admission and it goes down to three percent prior to discharge or a 96 reduction in symptomology for those individuals foreign criminal justice offenses 21 at intake 12 months post-treatment dropped to one percent a 95 reduction from engaging in the criminal uh justice system and satisfaction with treatment overall uh 75 very satisfied 20 satisfied 95 percent of Peaks clients are either very satisfied or satisfied with the treatment outcome and one percent or less than one percent very unsatisfied so against the backdrop of the monotherapeutic of values monotherapeutic approaches in and of themselves we seem to really be kicking those monotherapeutic you know uh outcomes in the ass right here at Peaks recovery centers and before we kind of dive into the post-treatment outcomes what are the what are the kids doing after treatment um we get to see something really beautiful we get to see people kind of in the best state of their life right we get to see this real healing we get to see pink clouds we get to see all the things along the way and differently than those monotherapeutic values you know from the clinical position are we just throwing things at a wall and these are the victories would this have happened in any other approach or you know Jason and both of you have been here long enough to know the difference between kind of old cheat sheet you know Peaks approach lack of a curriculum these types of things into a curriculum and into a staff that can really wrap around all the individuals at any given time um even if that’s not the common experience at all times it is our value system what are we seeing against the backdrop of monotherapeutic values within treatment culture that you guys believe is really driving these outcomes positively speaking for the time that they spend with us so what’s our magic sauce basically or how are we doing this because it’s not a silver bullet right the numbers aren’t zero at the end of the day right and we put a lot of energy into it and it also you know if a medication takes four to six weeks you know some individuals are leaving at 30 days but we’re pause you know reporting positively their depressive symptoms are down at day 30. so it seems like these other interventions you toss at it can really nurture alongside the medication efficacy if there is any uh the nurturing of symptomology so you know what is the operational thing that is working I mean if I were to summarize it I would say our goal at Peaks is to get to the root cause of what is driving um whatever is bringing somebody in uh to our treatment center and and you listed kind of the the phq-9 um and the other you know the gads uh and these other things this isn’t like people are coming here and getting like a camp high and just like you’re like hey I was out of my life for a week and uh we went canoeing and it was just a lot of fun and that felt great um like people like we’re treating suffering like people walking into Peaks are in the middle of suffering like if if your scoring is depressed on the phq nine like you’re depressed like things are not going well and um so focusing on the root causes of that uh but utilizing relationships utilizing um you know what Rogers called unconditional positive regard but really trying to connect um well with people and um meeting them where they are and and that that’s a cliche in a way but like if that’s at the Forefront of our mind if we really are like hey you’re you’re human we’re human too um and we can kind of meet you in this space I think that that to me so we use you know we use evidence-based practices for sure uh we put our own Flair on them to be certain but it is it’s it’s the culture and it’s the um it’s the really uh it’s using our relationships with our clients and using our relationships with one another to actually get to what is truly going on for somebody underneath um the symptomology or their um their coping mechanisms or brilliant strategies for overcoming uh their underlying issues yeah what do you say Lauren no I think to add to that um I’m going to piggyback off that um is this idea of like one of our core values is that one team one shift mentality right I know that when I walk in the door that I am going to sit down with our you know medical director Chris and I’m going to talk to the residential team and I admissions is always going to be in our rounds every day the meeting we have every single day like it’s consistent and constant communication about the client it I think it is um no offense if anyone takes fence of this but I think it’s an ignorant way to of thinking that one size fits all it’s every single client that walks into our door is different every single human being is different we have to be able to look at it in that lens we can’t just say hey CBT let’s go for all right because you know one of our clients over here might have distorted thinking patterns but then the other one over here might have a really good grip on their thinking patterns and just can’t really handle the trauma that they’re kind of holding in their body and so it’s it’s about kind of a multi-dimensional approach of what do you think medical what do you think clinical what do you think admissions residential um even you know all of our safety team and everything like that we work together as a team and being able to say oh wow this client who struggles with depression is so much different than this client that struggles with depression this client that uses is so much different than this client that uses so we have to separate them we have to it’s not fair to them if we put them in the same kind of box I guess it’s about learning about our clients getting to the root cause understanding their struggle in a way that I can now connect and understand you more and we’re not even you know I go into a session with our substance use primary clients we might not even mention substances the whole time because let’s talk about the person and the behaviors that go along with the person so I think it’s just a one team one shift thing yeah beautiful high level let’s dive in a little further if we’re if we’re you know we were talking about for the episode and a little bit in the introduction as well too sometimes it just feels like we’re looking at somebody who is not committed maybe probation forced them into treatment maybe the family system upheld boundaries and uh you know the pathology there is like you know treatment or no support and so individuals you know begrudgingly join you know the treatment protocols and they will go through it they’ll mark on the calendar about it here in 45 days and that sort of thing and the outcome will be sort of abysmal I think from a treatment center standpoint you know even though we know that’s going on right I think there’s always hope that something will latch on even if like recovery is not on the other side of the door maybe it’s like I know I can reach out for help now and maybe even like I’m not gonna bother my family I know what I’m about to do on the other side of this but I can separate that and maybe there’s some healing within that but you know within a treatment episode I think for the viewers out there you know maybe highlight a little bit about what it what it’s like to kind of feel like you have a success story and kind of right in front of you clinically and what it’s like to be like dang it how do I just get this person to know there’s help out there and to make the right choice when maybe they hit rock bottom to use old language yeah you know Brandon that’s a great point because um outcomes are tricky right it can be really easy to be very binary about outcomes um do do I expect that everybody coming into Peaks uh for depression will never feel depressed again like that seems really unrealistic to be honest with you and and I don’t think at any point do we set that expectation out there and you know for some even if they are um strongly encouraged by external forces to be at Peaks nobody’s at a zero percent motivated I would say like so I I think if we can get somebody from 10 wanting willing to change their life or to 20 realizing they have a problem like that feels like progress but but going back to to like I think setting the expectation like helping people build a path if they fall into depression and get her into an addiction again that they can um find their path back out or realize that there is a a path out that that is invaluable and I and um I was talking to one of our clinicians this week about you know a client that likely is going to re-enter a challenging family situations upon discharge and like how are they gonna accomplish their goals and this just isn’t a great setting but there just isn’t really any driver motivation to change that um I’m like we we are planting a ton of seeds in this person and and they are getting better and if if the progress that they make while in our care leads them to make a different decision even if it’s two years from now that still feels like a great outcome even if it doesn’t show up on a on a 12-month outcome study well and we’ve talked about that that’s telling you this a little bit before the episode is that we have to look at what successes or outcomes are if you go into um any industry in this industry and you say oh in order to be successful in this industry I need to have all clients and they’ll never relapse that is an unrealistic expectation to set and now you’re setting that on the client now you are putting forth your kind of expectations of them saying you can’t ever relapse right because then this wouldn’t be a success and the reality of this is is that every single client that comes through is going to relapse in some kind of way right maybe they don’t go back to substances but their behaviors are going to relapse and um it’s about how are they relapsing differently how are you you know you you still picked up that drink but you called us every single day asking for help about it that’s a different relapse because what you usually do is you drink and you run away and you don’t talk to anybody so you’re relapsing differently now right and so also going into this place of you know if the client is not motivated being able to say like okay I’m still going to show up for you if you don’t want to do any work today we’re going to sit here and stare at each other for an hour we’ve had a client in the past say I’m just not talking to you guys they don’t trust therapists well we’re just gonna sit here for an hour just so you know that at least I’m here at least someone’s not giving up on you and it’s those little subliminal messages that we give that I think are really a part of this outcome because it’s not hey you need to get sober or else it’s hey let’s try to get sober and what does that look like and how can we help you and if you don’t get sober then like how do we help you then and there is a little bit of part part of this and we we’ve talked about this on another episode where there has to be some motivation within the client the client has to put forth some kind of motivation or there will be some kind of relapse or a curse and there is that part where where is personal responsibility come in right where do I go to a 45-day treatment and say hey I’m going to take some of these things with me or I’m going to leave them there it’s up to you again going into a place of if you are lying to me about what’s coming up for you it doesn’t it only hurts you so let’s try to figure out a way to to make this a little bit more comfortable we don’t have to talk about your trauma all day if you don’t want to talk about your trauma all day but we let’s try to get something out of this session in some kind of way yeah and I I think there’s a there’s an important caveat to the motivation part of the conversation that it also requires discipline right like I went I went running yesterday good old eight miles ratcheted up trying to do my Boston Marathon thing qualified for all of that but my motivation yesterday was pretty low right but the discipline was like tie your shoes get in the damn car go down to the trail and just start running it doesn’t have to be a hundred miles an hour all the thing you know it doesn’t have to be fast it just just start just get out there right and over time I think that inserting that discipline is also going to be supportive of motivating behaviors also we’ll get back into that I just wanted to highlight that so we have a a check box to come back to in that regard when we come down to having conversations about individual responsibility as well too in the process but so viewers out there they’re listening they’re watching this thinking okay Lauren’s now just sitting patiently quiet in front of a you know a client now for an hour maybe something was said maybe nothing was shared maybe it’s just you know shooting the [ __ ] or whatever to help inspire a rapport that inevitably leads an individual to start talking about the things that gets to the root causes so we can move forward right but the American Health Care system is wildly expensive and you don’t need you don’t need me here at Peaks to tell you that family system is the amount of American Health Care debt all the charts all those things right and it can cost anywhere from ten to a hundred thousand dollars to go to a treatment episode for 30 to 45 days you know in that regard and for a lot of people out there a relapse that immediately happens on the other side of the of the fence for something that’s so costly never mind insurance policies and ever increasing deductible not-of-pocket costs for the viewers out there against the backdrop of ever increasing profitability of the insurance companies uh out there um it’s really expensive and I think out of that not just the desperation and hope for their loved one to get well but the lack of resources to continue to do this over and over and over again and what would we what can we say from your guys’s lens to the family systems out there so desperate and lacking resources hearing something like my loved one’s not motivated on why am I paying for this you know at the end of the day and I don’t think there’s a simple answer to that I think it’s complex but we should talk about the challenges of an industry right because at Peaks recovery centers you know we’ve got 36 beds at least for right now and we’ve got about a nearly 100 staff members to wrap around those you know one to three ratio in one way shape or form and the cost of that in an inflated market cost of living all of these types of things at the end of the day we talk about it with our staff I can’t afford a home I want I got a master’s degree I got 90 000 in debt right staff and people as employees go through their own suffering in the world and have their own requirements and at the same time a company trying to displace its profitability to support that right there’s all this tension that exists right but on the other side of that family interest systems aren’t interested in how a business is operating all those types of things so what can we do to support families better do you think from an outcomes perspective in a world World in which it’s at times very difficult to motivate the individual and at the same time resources are possibly limited for the family system desperate for an outcome on the other side I mean that Brandon that is a tricky question don’t mess it up yeah this is live nail it there’s one answer um
it’s it’s almost an impossible question answer if you ask me like other than you know sitting here um as a parent and I I’ve alluded to it a little bit like you know I I have a son who had a significant health issue when he was you know 10 years old and um you know we had to find the right hospital and the right doctors to to do a surgery and that happened to be in Nashville at Vanderbilt Hospital actually um today’s the anniversary of that and um and uh and even when we got there like we knew it was kind of a coin flip like whether or not he was it was going to be successful and if it wasn’t successful the results were going to be catastrophic and we put a lot of resources a lot of resources a lot of time a lot of like I had a practice that I just kind of walk away from for a while and um and there wasn’t a guarantee and there isn’t even even if the health care issue isn’t a mental health thing there aren’t guarantees with all this stuff but um I could just say from my parents Hearts which isn’t why you had me on here but like it was it was worth the risk for obvious reasons and and fortunately we had a good outcome um otherwise I’d probably be able to talk kind of casually about it but like um you know it was a it was a calculus a little bit um and and I didn’t you know what I didn’t have my story is different because like it’s not like my son wasn’t motivated to get better he just was too young to understand that in a lot of ways um but there aren’t guarantees uh a lot of times in in to your point Brandon like you know getting treatment for substance use or a mental health issue is um it is not cheap and there is there can be a motivational Factor at play here but I can also say uh I have worked for a pharmaceutical company as well and we had a whole education program about encouraging people to take their diabetes medication because that felt like it had a stigma too where people would start to feel better and so they’d stop taking their insulin it’s like that isn’t a sign that you’re getting better that’s a sign that it’s working and like there’s a ton of Education that went into that and people um you know if you know somebody with diabetes like that sometimes happens where people lose motivation to treat it and so this isn’t it isn’t uncommon for people to have uh strose with motivations at times and I do think as as skilled clinicians that we have at Peaks and hopefully at a lot of other places like helping to enhance motivation um is a big part of our training and a big part of of what we walk through and that but that can be a journey and it can be a risk I would say yeah I mean that’s a hard question Brandon I yeah on the spot yeah yeah resource wise it becomes tricky I think if we look at motivation wise we look at I’m paying fifty thousand dollars I’ve heard so many people say this is your last one there’s not another one after this I can’t afford it and um I think you know Clinton Nicholson as everyone knows um he has this kind of like saying he’s told us in the clinical team is that you know we are guides not Gods I think we get into a place within the field where people are like why aren’t you fixing my child why aren’t you fixing my husband why aren’t you why can’t you just fix them and it there’s this part of it that it’s like I don’t have the power to fix anybody I have the ability to walk with someone through a really hard time help them understand themselves and be able to look and say oh here are my issues and this is how I work on that whether they take that and work on it is essentially up to them first of all and I think second of all there’s there’s a part of this that we cannot force clients to do anything we they have to have some kind of autonomy because 30 to 45 days is a very short amount of time and it’s really unfortunate that insurance companies um don’t allow access to it more and that’s a whole nother thing right but we have to understand that within that time span we’re doing the best we can in order to allow clients to understand themselves and and find motivation find themselves and you know we can look at motivation in two ways too or we have the depressive clients who literally just can’t motivate themselves or is it the you know clients who are just like this is crap I don’t care about any of this um but at the end of the day again going into that personal responsibility is we are the biggest motivators at Peaks I think that our clients get incredibly annoyed with us at times because of how much we talk to them and how much we check in and all of those things and then and at the end of the day we do the best we can and we meet the client where they’re at and we understand that behaviors are a big part of this process we treat those behaviors we tend to those behaviors and we see them um in the best way we we absolutely can and it is unfortunate that more resources aren’t available because 30 to 45 days this is the long game like we are you will do this forever if you struggle with mental health issues with substance use that is what you’re going to be working with forever so how do you maintain that and how do you continue Continuing Care um I think just to highlight this too a thought I had was I think that’s why our family services so valuable because it is really that outlet to say like we hear you we hear your frustration we hear your fear because family they run off fear of course they do and a lot of the time like that fear comes out in a way of like why aren’t you helping and we are and there’s only so much we can do um so I think Family Services continuing care whatever we can do to make sure the client is seen or hurt you know I I know that our case manager supervisor Rachel Jenkins she still gets phone calls six months later of clients saying hey can you find me this treatment center to go to we are going to help you as much as we can but again our hands are tied a lot of the time with insurance and money and all of those things we don’t really have a lot of power over that yeah and and I appreciate you both feeling the question in real time certainly you know from my position like I just believe in transparency and I believe in the challenges if we’re going to continue to move forward in any sort of sense of progress within an industry that is fraught with challenges and certainly fraught with fragmentation if we aren’t going to have honest discussions about its reality and its condition um I don’t know how we’re going to get to anything like a silver bullet at you know some point and to that I think you know the reason also for asking the question is family system finds a website right all websites are going to have a pitch of like hope we can do this we can treat these depression we can treat the substance use disorder we can do that we do a lot of that we can do the math and all these types of things and so in a market in an industry that sells itself in that way I think it creates a level of hope that we know from outcome data isn’t necessarily true on the other side of the boat um I believe in what our website says I believe in what our admissions team tells individuals on the other side because they aren’t given a sheet that says hey you have to say these top five bullet points to bring somebody in because we know statistically 95 of the time it’ll work if you just tell them these things right our admissions team is empowered to State what we do and to reflect on that positively and so I think being honest and open you know for me hopefully not just creates Grace for uh you know providers and clinicians such as yourselves but an open-mindedness to really investigating a treatment program and what it means to be a part of it at the end of the day and so I’m thinking about a treatment center somewhere up north around here and they have ads out there right now that says it starts with keep your cell phone and your iPad come to treatment today right we live in a in a world where we’ve talked about on this episode multiple times now the conflict and the sickness that is derived from uh the the tools of social media and our phones that mess with our dopaminergic structures right and so we know more than ever it’s not just taking a cell phone away like the old kind of way of Peaks where we’re going to take your phone because you know you need to have some gratitude you got to pay for this and do all that sort of thing we’ve really shifted into a world of like this actually is a problem and we need to have a conversation about it therapeutically we got to talk about and approach it because it’s continuing to keep you stuck in your bed in a depressive State it’s keeping you close to your dealer at the end of the day from a substance abuse place what is the relationship between this device and the pornography that you’re watching how does that disrupting your relationship when it’s always accessible like that but we live in a market of opportunities for which the individual thinks I need my phone and there’s also this relationship also which Clinton was here because I know he has insights into this but of like the phone is very much a part of the world so why would we take that away but at the same time it’s creating so much conflict in the individual’s life and to me to Market to the individual to get them into a program feels financially driven and family systems should be aware of that because I don’t think we’re approaching that as an industry if that becomes the Peaks Recovery Center ad at the end of the day I think we’re about getting people into care versus about actually getting them into care so we can treat the condition yeah right it sounds like you know come to our weight loss program and eat all the pizza and cheeseburgers you want like that’s what I hear when you say that like yeah you’ll get a lot of people for that it sounds appealing um but it is like that’s a little bit um short-sighted I would say because you you don’t know what somebody’s walking in with whether it’s a pornography addiction or they may their drug dealer may live two blocks away you don’t know like that feels absurd um and risky and and of course it appeals to somebody to be like cool I can keep my phone I don’t have to disrupt my life at all to come to this program um and you know like this is a thing like we certainly allow people reasonable uh access to the outside world and as well we should but um unfettered access to that stuff just feels like if nothing changes nothing changes to quote a but I think the other part of that that kind of bleeds into this conversation is the instant gratification crisis that we all struggle with is well my child my spouse whatever it is they didn’t get better at your place they left a week ago so maybe we have to give them time to get better maybe we have they were in a bubble for 45 days went back into the world went back into their family system got triggered got overwhelmed drank did whatever relapse in their depression all these different things and now oh well you didn’t fix them that and we don’t give them the time to be able to heal and so if we look at it right are we as a society sabotaging the relapse process in a way as well saying oh you relapsed you failed you’re wrong you’re bad in this equation so what are they going to do they’re going to withdraw and they’re not going to keep moving forward so what if we continue what if we change that instead of oh okay you are going to struggle and we’ll just bear with you with that we work through that with you instead of nope you’re done you screwed everything up there’s that instant gratification I need you to be sober now I need you to be better now I need your anxiety go away now because then that means everything worked and everything’s gonna be okay it’s just kind that’s not that’s fundamentally flawed in our thinking if we think that way yeah I’m I mean I couldn’t agree more and just to just uh send that point home for like the family systems out there I’ve continued to acknowledge that we you’re being sold something on the front end and Peaks is trying to sell something that we do here at polytherapy Poly therapeutic approach we throw a lot of the kitchen sink at the individual with the hope that our long-term treatment outcomes can sustain and at the end of the day as well too I think we wholeheartedly show up with Mission Vision and core values in front of us you know versus the dollars but the dollar is a really important thing because we have to have a staff and we have to have the resources to you know insert that at the end of the day and at the end of the uh the end of the day to say it again I think at some point too we just have to know our hearts you know as well too in the process and what we are dedicated to and what we’re actually trying to come up with 45 days in treatment you know our owners for the viewers out there for as long as we’re able to we’re able to sit in front of patients and talk about um you know how they’re doing and how they’re succeeding and what the troubles are and all that sort of thing and uh so you know every Friday you know Chris and Bobby will bring forward a list of complaints and you guys get them throughout the entire process as well too but what I love about hearing about those complaints it’s like well I I could I need a like a binder that like from X Y and Z tells me exactly what’s going on in my day-to-day okay sure that’s something like we can work toward what we’re not hearing is like the therapy let me down I didn’t feel cared for I didn’t feel loved and so there are this incredible push of medical clinical and residential interventions toward the individual that I think has them feeling loved um and it’s what I’m stating here is it’s nice to just have it like a binder’s missing or the food could be a little bit better because we’re not a kitchen and we’re not a restaurant and those types of things and so um so I guess at the end of this as well too like there is a sense of like knowing our heart and I think the family systems especially those who entertain our family services because we also have that troubled outcome of like families like don’t want anything to do with it I’m not talking about how I traumatized them you know that type of thing that you know is um can dislodge outcomes in that way or leave a person feeling like my outside support world doesn’t care about that anyways the reality here is that I think when people get to know us and they listen to us and we invite them in family services individuals or otherwise they get to see that we actually care and regardless of how they leave treatment I think that is the underlying feature for which has helped us succeed in our outcomes and our reviews and those types of things at the end of the day as well too so any case to the family systems out there the research and the questions you ask going into a treatment episode I think matters greatly and I know you’re living in fear out there given the condition and the circumstances you’re seeing in front of you but I believe wholeheartedly in a in the United States of America where there’s almost 15 000 treatment centers to go to that we’re all not doing great things and to be curious about that and compare and contrast and really formulate a treatment episode for which you believe your loved one is going to be best nurtured within and if it starts with you keep your cell phone and your iPad it feels like the motivations are not about the individual but the individual in a bed at the end of the day and so I’ll just continue to antagonize because I think it’s essential here because I think for a lot of family systems like Johnny sees the ad and he’s like I’ll get my phone I’m going to that treatment what a success when you’re living in fear but at the same time it’s not generally a situation or setting that’s motivated by something other than that head to bed mentality and I’m not saying that’s always true but it might always be true at the end so uh with that let’s uh dive into factors favoring abstinent success so at month one post-treatment 52 of patients who successfully completed all recommended treatment reported having been abstinent since discharge in comparison only 34 of patients who did not complete treatment reported abstinence one month post-treatment and So within I think one of the challenging things to the point of like the data sets Jason that to allude to is like 48 of the respondents who did not complete treatment didn’t answer the phone and 38 who did complete treatment didn’t answer the phone so the outcome’s up or they are down you know if more people had answered the phone what would it look like we don’t know but 52 so you almost have what a 38 somewhere in their chance greater chance of succeeding post-treatment outcome by finishing the treatment protocols and going through the programming and the same data sets are true 44 to 34 at month six and 40 three percent to 28 those in recovery those not in recovery um for those who finished treatment that didn’t finish treatment and the longer in treatment episode thing here is kind of like what I wanted to Showcase yeah same good we’re on the same page yeah yeah that the longer you spend in this not just brute forcing it but the the continued participation and curiosity and toward internal Wellness at the end of the day is clearly driving an outcome and I think that’s so important because my I I keep I think more so over the past several episodes I keep reintroducing like personal responsibility and individual responsibility and motivation and discipline on top of it but it’s not a Brute Force thing you have to do what we say and then carry that out it’s like you really have to participate in this we can’t hold your hand outside of Peaks recovery centers um and so let’s just dive into that a little bit and hear that sort of clinical insight into what you guys are seeing for those because again it’s a 52 we don’t know what happened entirely the other 48 we know nine percent of amuse in the last uh 30 days and but the other 38 39 we couldn’t get a hold of so we don’t know exactly what’s going on there but the reality is it’s a it’s a far more likelihood of succeeding if you engage in this what’s going on yeah I mean Brandon that’s a great question and I and I think the data you’re looking at um I mean I think it’s really clearly treatment outcome success is highly correlated to length of time and treatment and not at a residential level of care like not at the highest level of care like just having ongoing clinical contact uh and it appears from our data but this is held true across a lot of studies that I’ve seen the longer you have kind of clinical contact even if at the end even if for six months after care even if you’re just going to group a week in an individual session a week or something like that um the likelihood of long-term success particularly with substance use disorder but I’m sure the data would hold true for uh depression it’s clear that that those that’s the most predictive thing we can do right like we have to maintain um what people experience in residential care they can keep experiencing that but they have to kind of maintain some contact um with the community and probably with professional care I think that part feels very true I also think um you know Lauren mentioned it a little while ago you know people can kind of force their way or pretend to be motivated or or you know kind of White Knuckle it if you will for 30 or 45 days but if if somebody is having clinical contact for six months or seven months like it’s almost there has to be some sort of internal motivation going on there right like um that has to be a component too where uh as as I think people go down in levels of care I think um we’re handing people more and more the reins of their life and more and more ability to kind of make their own decisions and um and with that I think the the implied implica or the implication then is that the longer somebody’s in care the more internally motivated they are just by definition that’s my thought yeah and maybe before we get to your you know input here too as well Lauren it’s fascinating because sometimes we’ll turn to the individual and be like yeah you’re not ready to leave and they’re like you just want me here for more money yeah you know at the end of the day but the the motivation yeah that is true the longer you stay in treatment the organization makes money that’s how business works that’s how an investment that’s how any business works the more Donuts you buy the better Dunkin Donuts is but the reality is is that if you leave treatment seven to Thirty Days uh within seven to Thirty Days at Peaks recovery centers you have a 16 chance of recovery if you stay with us for 181 plus days through IOP extended programming alumni it goes up to 56 chance right we yeah sure money in the process right but the way treatment works it’s more expensive in the beginning and you make less money over time so the longer you stay in care the less money I’m making from a chief executive officer position right but the value is recovery is better guaranteed at the end of the day right and I think it’s important to acknowledge that there is no relationship between longer and care and more money it’s more care if you want to go to detox over and over and over again that’s more money for whatever institution exists out there that’s playing that game the more you move through programming it’s going like this true you know they don’t want to pay for detox all the way through outpatient level of care right it’s more money at the beginning less money over time so when Peaks asks you to commit to the process it’s not because of more money it’s because the outcome is clear yeah I mean it goes into this place of we are habitual creatures right so if I I always tell this to the client so if I if I have a pattern and behavior that I have been practicing for over 20 years and then I go to treatment for 30 days and then I’m like I’m good after that how am I going to expect to change a pattern and behavior that I’ve been practicing for that long over a course of 30 days it goes in this place of like thinking patterns right if I have a way that I think and I stay in my shame and I ruminate and all these different things and I go to treatment and I’m like okay this is starting to get better then I move out of treatment I move out of care completely and then I start going back to my life again habitual creature I’m going to start falling back into those thinking patterns I’m going to start going into those behaviors because there’s comfort in those it’s what I’ve known my entire life it’s all I’ve known but forever and so I am always going to fall back on that and so being able to have longer-term care gives you the ability to continue to challenge those behaviors challenge those patterns interrupt them when they’re there and really it goes into a place of like you are changing the way your brain works if I’m constantly telling myself how much I suck then that’s the way my brain works and so the silly we we talk about affirmations right is okay like I want you to write down five affirmations of yourself tonight for me I’m like oh what I’m oh I’m strong I’m beautiful like no I’m not gonna do that but it really does help change the way your brain thinks like I am now oh 45 days in I’m actually starting to look at myself in the mirror and liking what I see when I never have before and so if you take care away you take everything away it’s only going to make sense to return back to that place of almost like homeostasis right is where this is where I’m comfortable my depression is where I live there I’m gonna go back and so much of treatment too there’s so many like metaphors for this process you know and I just gonna continue to talk about my running because the beginning of that process was like get on a treadmill do a 10 to 12 minute mile okay that was exhausting okay I’m motivated to achieve more of that well I need the discipline to keep returning to the treadmill and Emily I figured out you don’t have to be on treadmill you can run anywhere Brandon uh in that regard and move beyond that but sort of as I moved through it as a journey right it becomes like I want to be a little competitive so I join a race we go do Garden of the Gods or something like that okay that was fun and exciting like how do I do better I noticed that like uh my you know my hip flexors are getting sore after each run I’ll form then becomes a thing right it’s a constant experience and for me and running of learning and then okay now my form stand I feel good okay my nutrition is down I’m not taking care of myself from a nutritional value and I feel fatigued and tired as I run these distances um you know all of the things that can come alongside of it and I think that you know not to extend the metaphor too much further but it’s it’s true for like a recovery journey and I too am not just this individual who arrived in a CEO role you know once upon a time I got a master’s degree in business or anything like that I also come from a history of like traumatic experiences and I too have suffered in the world you two in front of me have suffered in this world and are shared stories in that way of things and our path forward individually has not been linear whatsoever and so I think in that way just trying to share with the viewers out there this isn’t all on the individual but there is a sense of felt personal responsibility in our own journey is that has helped us achieve at least where we’re at today and so nagging it’s like you step in front of a therapist and if you want to go in front of a therapist I’m not going to do it here with you guys but I mean you kind of are right now or yeah it would be inside you guys know if I said something like this like no my relationship with my wife is perfect oh okay okay yeah tell us about that tell us yeah we have tell us what that Perfection was yeah I know where this is going don’t end my me in front of us but it goes into the what we were talking about before right when a client is leaving and they’re like oh I’m not nervous at all I know I got this I’m going to be so nobody you should be nervous you need to have healthy fear in that like there has to be realistic expectations when we’re talking about this you’re going back to a family home that you triggered you more than anything else let’s be realistic yeah and you know to the running Point too I’m practicing for a marathon wait on July that is one day and I’m 60 some days or 70 days away from it right now all of this training opportunity guarantees nothing in that moment and I know that and that also creates an extraordinary amount of fear like and potential passivity of like why am I even trying because I can’t guarantee that future moment all I know is I can show up in that moment in the best way shape or form irregardless and whatever mistakes or things I go through just represents the future opportunity on the other side and I think that recovery Works in a very similar sort of way there is a fear that it’s not going to work right there is a fear and a resistance to doing it what’s all the work if I can’t guarantee the outcome drugs make me happy if you can’t guarantee my happiness out here in the future like why would I even bother with this process at the end of the day and so I think we get it and I think that’s also what I’m trying to Showcase and highlight for people out there that just because we’re in the position of an industry and we are able to collect a paycheck and an income resulting from it does not mean we don’t um we aren’t a part of this process as well too in front of our you know patients every day differently than them too we got to kind of like hit the door leave our personal crap behind us and like walk through and you know in a way sort of showcase like you got this because I got this you know but we don’t always got this and I think I just want to represent that because it’s not us in this position of perfection and decrees and we through that lens of knowledge alone know what’s best for you like we also struggle individually and I think all across America people struggle in that way of things and I think that’s just worth highlighting as well too here um and so when we’re talking about is also a lived experience um in that regard and through that lived experience we can showcase it’s going to be challenging but the fruits of everything on the other side of this are certainly worthwhile also every time I get to that thing of like I succeeded it’s a new opportunity and something else has been highlighted for me that I have to work on um and that’s what makes this a lifelong journey not just recovery is a process but self-actualizing awareness you know the best possible version of ourselves um is not going to be out there guaranteed to us nor in a pill nor in any monotherapeutic Approach at the end of the day so I think yes I do have something to say um which was a big surprise uh I think on that it’s where we start to challenge how we measure success I think about a client who came through our program last year um he didn’t get out of bed for 30 days and we just sat with him and we we encouraged him and we you know we talked to him and um after that 30 days he started getting out of bed and he started doing the work and and he found a way to love himself in a way that he never was able to in the past and he never really received from his family in a big way um unfortunately this client left and he um after a couple months he did pass away and to me right it’d be like that’s the ultimate failure that’s what we think about and on the other hand well no there’s success in that because he found a way to love himself to the point where when he went home his family reached back out and said we have never seen him this way before like he is he is caught more confident than we’ve seen him he is more motivated and all of these different things and so how do we measure outcome and success maybe it’s by seeing the behaviors and everything that’s changed not necessarily are they staying sober or are they not falling back into their depression and anxiety and all of that absolutely freeze solid yeah I I was hung up on your running metaphors so I’m just gonna that was too deep to go there yeah you see that from you both yeah um yeah that I think if anything to the running it’s just there’s no guaranteed markers like in this process and for as much as I want to believe I’m going to hit that Boston qualifying time like I know there’s potential of missing that Mark but it can’t be perceived as a failure what’s going to be true for me I believe now through working on myself for three three and a half years or however long now that it will represent an opportunity and I know when I discover that I will move forward accordingly uh in that regard but it’s been a three and a half year Journey again to that moment of opportunity and so Aftercare choices uh just to kind of wrap up the data here actions taken for at least six months post-treatment that appear to have helped patients remain abstinent at 12 months if the individual chose to dive into recovery support meetings AAA 12 steps um what are the other non-12-step things Dharma Dharma all those types of things 46 increase in likelihood of an outcome versus 22 percent decrease those individuals held accountable through drug testing 20 versus eight percent so accountability does work living in sober living group homes 19 to 13 not a strong differentiation there we’ve had past episodes in talking about the challenges of sober homes we’re not going to review all that today but and then seeing a personal therapist be on the wall is 32 to 27 not a significant shift the thing that I think is most uh interesting here action taken for at least six months post treatment that did not appear to make a difference for patients to remain abstinent at months 12. a lot of these data sets are so low four percent three percent two percent not really worth highlighting but to the point of monotherapeutic approaches 41 of individuals on a medication a psychotropic medication were not in recovery six months post-treatment as a value set so to the point of medicines right at the end of the day if we are anchoring ourselves into the belief system that those things are going to lead to longevity and happiness and wellness we’re fooling ourselves the outcomes we’re highlighting in the research are apparent within Peaks recovery Center’s research at the end of the day or post-treatment outcomes at the end of the day and I think that’s just worth again highlighting for the viewers out there there is no Med that is going to fix this or resolve this or guarantee that next step forward in a world that really takes a great holistic approach and a really significant timeline not just to stop using drugs and alcohol or just stop feeling depressed but to continue to live beyond the initial struggles into these Journeys we call recovery long term at the end of the day and so I don’t know if there’s anything you guys want to highlight further about sort of the Aftercare choices or things at the end of the day but um you know for me uh when I think about it the longer in treatment the longer the commitment the willingness to show back up where we feel like we fall short not as a failure but Falling short in our goals not seen as a failure but as an opportunity to come back and negotiate that and move forward when we are not reliant on individual things but to an entire process the outcomes continue to go up and I think that’s worth painting a picture on and why we are so insistent not just at Peaks but all treatment centers not about the money because the longer you’re with us the less money a treatment center makes at the end of the day the value proposition is a higher outcome and it requires that participation and so I don’t know if you guys want to I want to take us out with a quote here and your thoughts about it that I shared with you this morning Jason but before we do Aftercare choices anything you want to tie into there yeah the the sober living one was a bit surprising to me that it it had a very minimal impact and I I suspect that’s due to variability of uh Sober Living homes and kind of an inconsistent inconsistent inconsistency is just newly regulated too as far as here in Colorado and so I’ll be curious to see if regulation uh Improvement on Sober Living homes helps uh drive better outcomes with that my my brief concern about the Sober Living homes and our experience is that like we talked about it here putting somebody in a bucket sitting you can only do it this way is is just not helpful and it’s discouraging and I think what happens for us is that we don’t take that approach but operators of Sober Living homes have a I did it this way and now you’re going to do it this way and they go from an environment of like love openness what’s your path what’s your journey how are you going to succeed here into an environment that is literally like you’re going to do it this way and you better be sober the entire time and those restrictive sort of potentially shame-based features of the environments I think can be causally disruptive in a person’s treatment journey and I think that is often reported back to us at least from what I hear from our patient demographic and so you know I have always thought Sober Living homes at the end of the day if they just change their tune I mean we had Kyle um I figured his last name and his partner I think his name is Bryce at the top of my head but they came on and it’s um what is their what is it yeah yes but they have this very open like you arrive you got your bag in your hand you have to sort of like how do we help you succeed in your journey and what does that Journey look like we’re gonna hold you accountable to your journey but it’s not based on our perception about what all paths forward or something like this all passed over living um so you tell us what that is we’ll hold you accountable to the story but it’s not going to be here’s what you need to do and we’re going to hold you accountable to our perception of the path and I think that’s starting to shift in the market a little bit and I think that will succeed in Greater outcomes when the individual can be met where they’re at held up accountable to no use but also we’re just going to hold you accountable to the narrative you gave us versus the one we perceive you need to go through yeah no I think the biggest message here is Aftercare is crucial I think the second our clients walk in the door our case management team is already there to talk about what do you want for aftercare what do you expect but then on the other side they’re asking the clinical team what are your clinical recommendations for aftercare because a lot of people they just don’t want to do Aftercare right I did this we’re done I don’t need a therapist I don’t need IOP all of these different things but the reality of it is that you do in order to meet some of these outcomes and and continue with this recovery Journey there has to be the accountability there has to be the personal responsibility Community Connection that’s one of the major things that the clients say is I just need a community I need connection I need people to understand me and so I think if anything I want people to know like as much as you feel that Aftercare might be a nuisance to your life it is your life it is something that you are investing in in order to continue to live your life and so cost benefit analysis in that situation is do the Aftercare we don’t just recommend it because we want to take your money or we want you know we recommend this because it is what works and a story yeah absolutely yes 16 percent to 56 percent you do seven to Thirty days if you do over 181 days never mind what you do beyond the walls of Peaks for 100 you know 80 more days right the uh I would imagine that if we could track that historically and in the future we will just see that sort of rise to the occasion so uh with all the data aside I appreciate the viewers walking through all of that with us um I did this in the introduction I shared this quote with you this morning as well too Jason uh from uh Marcus Aurelius who once wrote to himself and among the things you turn to these two the things have no hold on the soul they stand there unmoving outside it disturbances comes only from within from our own perceptions and two that everything you see will soon later will soon alter and cease to exist think of how many things changes you’ve already seen in this world this world is nothing but change our life is only about perception and I share that and curious about feedback because there seems to be a significant Reliance on external strategies but the external world is constantly changing and constantly moving and when we talk about SRI ssris for example those are things we as a society thought were reliable external strategies and the evidence now in 2020 two moving forward is changing in front of us we are no longer thinking it’s about the bio you know chemical imbalance within our brains and the data isn’t actually pointing to that and so the world is changing in regards to these external strategies in a world that is generally increasing in its suffering right and so at the end of the day all we’re left with our perceptions but the reality is for me is what Marcus are really succeeding is the thing that is inside of us this Divine Consciousness the soul the individual the internal life that we get to breathe and experience for this limited time or on Earth cannot be disrupted by the outside only our perception will allow for that disruption at the end of the day and so I think there’s a calling here not just from somebody who wrote something 2000 years ago but when I look at podcasts that talk about longevity when I think about my own clinical journey and response to traumatic experiences my running all these types of things um that the more more I’m relying on the external for strategies and the perception I give to that good or bad only further disrupts my internal motivation and desire to be well and I know I’m throwing a big quote at you guys here at the end of this but just curious how you perceive that Within in like Peaks and what we’re doing with individuals at the end of each day so it’s a big quote it’s a huge goal there’s a lot to unpack there we’re not going to necessarily do it but just curious if there’s anything that resonates further with you guys there that the viewers can Chomp on until next episode yeah my first response was I think that goes really nicely with our work on the conscious recovery which is about um really finding some form of spiritual healing and and having that uh you know I think um TJ calls it our our perfect self um to me that I feel like he’s kind of saying the same thing that like you know I think historically a lot of treatment has been outside in like just do the right thing do the right thing get away from the wrong people do do do all this out outside in um and I think the Marcus realist quote goes nicely with like we’re we’re here to try to help people change from the inside out and actually hardly even change like just re-access uh that part of them that that they’ve lost touch with like I think that in a nutshell is what recovery is is regaining that ability um not only to trust yourself but to be in relationship with yourself where you have access um to kind of that Soul or that uh perfect nature well it is an interesting thing too that we limit ourselves in a way right like the TMS is going to work ketamine is going to work uh anti-depressants are going to work all of these other things are going to work but we don’t give credit to ourselves we don’t give credit to the ability we have to nurture ourselves or understand ourselves and and go internally I think we live in a society that is very external right you see some of the men that come through our program and it’s you know I got the wife I got the kids I got the big house I got the nice car I got the CEO job and I still feel empty well yeah because you are trying to go towards all of these things that are for everybody else and you’re not looking at yourself you’re not able to see what do I need in these situations what’s important to me it’s all about external forces and so being able to take a minute within a treatment center setting to just sit down and say hey what’s going on with you it’s really uncomfortable a lot of the time I always tell clients like you’re gonna feel lot worse before you feel better I’m sorry to tell you that right but it’s because we have created so much fear around who we are internally that we run away from it as much as we can but the problem is is you haven’t even confronted it yet so how do you know it’s scary and so being able to guide them to a place of hey you can look at yourself and it doesn’t have to be the scariest thing in the entire world but instead it’s going to bring you to your whole import perfect self it is going to allow you to live the life that you’ve wanted to live yeah so many paradoxes and what we do right Wellness kind of requires suffering yeah you know we want you to move toward the goal but we also need you to be still at the same time right and I think it goes to point that they that we should disrupt and continue to disrupt this Narrative of a linear path and find acceptance and Grace for each individual should have Grace for themselves to navigate a very complex world with a lot of downward pressure on the individual’s capacity to find Wellness and without further Ado I think we should just stop it there because we got a lot more to unpack here questions thoughts ideas all those things for the viewers out there finding Peaks at findinggeeks.com gosh I forget questions at findingpeaks.com thanks you should just know my brain breaks on this thing get it on the screen every time back there questions at findingpeaks.com we would love to expand on this if the viewers or listeners are out there curious we are happy to dive into it I think what I’ve always wanted to promote from my position at Peaks is transparency that we are uh in a world of great challenges we experienced as that as a treatment center but that does not mean no introspection that does not mean our own growth and ability to grow on behalf of patient care so uh and I know we’ve discouraged as well too hanging out on the social media but our social media is great and filled with positivity and motivation and opportunities for Success out there so the tick tocks the Facebooks the Instagram all those things out there we hope that those social media Outlets are positive to our viewers out there uh and it’s certainly a space for which we get to Point at our future episodes Clips mic drop moments from these episodes that are hopefully motivating in some way for the viewers out there so we can’t do it without being found it’s the Paradox of showcasing something that we’re trying to resolve also in the background but uh to the viewers out there Brandon Burns chief executive officer to my beautiful host thank you as always for joining me and until next time
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Episode 104Understanding Psychedelics and Natural MedicineWatch Nowhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_mMv7TdE7MListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Brandon Burns brings on special guest Ismail Ali, JD, Director of Policy and Advocacy at MAPS, to speak on natural medicine and the use of psychedelics throughout history. Ismail shares observations regarding the legalization of natural medicine as well as what it truly means to have decriminalized substances being used in medical settings. This episode welcomes a debate over a prevalent topic to share knowledge, spark curiosity, or bring general awareness to the situation. To learn more about MAPS, check out maps.org

Talking Points1. Introduction to Ismail 2. Integrating traditional with untraditional medical treatment 3. Looking into risk and harm 4. Misinformation and a time for education 5. Regulated vs. unregulated systems 6. Addressing concerns of the growing movement 7. Closing thoughts Quotes

“Psychedelics is so much more about giving people the inspiration and direction to do things themselves, which is part of why I think when they are effective for, let’s say, dealing with substance use disorders or other kinds of treatments, when they do have those benefits. Often it’s not because the thing like the drug itself kind of by itself, like change is a significant thing.”– Ismail Ali, JD / Director of Policy and Advocacy, MAPS

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -104- Transcriptshello and welcome to another great episode of Finding Peaks I am your host today Brandon Burns chief executive officer for Peaks recovery centers here in Colorado Springs and for those of you familiar to the show you know we’ve been tracking the natural medicine Health act which was passed this last election uh here in the state of Colorado also known as proposition 122 that moves the state of Colorado away from prohibited drug laws concerning the use of plant-based psychedelic medicines by first decriminalizing personal possession increasing access to supervised Professional Services and prohibiting local governments from Banning licensed facilities like Peaks recovery centers and services as permitted by the measure if you’re not familiar to the topic you can check out past episodes like episode 74 where we first sat down with the Coalition director for proposition 122 Kevin Matthews and discuss that length the Law’s intent and direction we further sat with other industry thought leaders such as Dr Scott beanenfeld and Dr Dana lehrmann on episode 70 78 to talk through their perspective and the value proposition within the measure at least the in the way that they see it we’ve even looked under the hood of treatment programs like Beyond dot Us in Mexico founded by energetic and passionate Tom fiegel on episode 88 where we discussed how ibogaine treatment in particular Works within inpatient settings plant-based medicine serve as an Innovative tool for the behavioral healthcare industry that as an industry and as we’ve talked about on these episodes has lacked some type of innovation for quite some time while running thin on its capacity to for example shift the direction of the overdose epidemic we Face here locally in Colorado but certainly across the country not to mention the ongoing toll of distress perpetuated by Society social media and day-to-day hardships that continue to weigh heavily on Colorado’s family systems our military members and Veterans and culturally across America at Peaks recovery centers we take great responsibility in the future delivery of these medicines and see this opportunity as a profound Innovative intervention that can among many other things support individuals better navigate their personal hardships such as trauma in a more effective manner than the historical delivery of monotherapeutic approaches such as cognitive behavioral therapy or medications such as ssris snris and the treatment of depression for example and today we continue this discussion with attorney Ishmael Ali the director of policy and advocacy at Maps or the multi-disciplinary association for psychedelic studies as Maps director of policy and advocacy Ishmael Advocates to eliminate barriers to psychedelic therapy and research develops and implements legal and policy strategy and supports Maps governance non-profit and ethics work Ishmael earned his JD at the University of California Berkeley School of Law in 2016 after receiving his bachelor’s in Philosophy from California State University Fresno Ishmael has also previously worked for the ACLU of Northern California’s criminal justice and drug policy project and Berkeley’s law international human rights law clinic Ishmael is licensed to practice law in the state of California and is a founding board member of the Psychedelic Bar Association he also currently serves on the board of the sage Institute contributes to the chakruna institute’s council for the protection of sacred plants and participates on the advisory Council for the Ayahuasca defense fund he has also previously served as chair of the students of sensible drug policy board of directors Ishmael is further passionate about studying sustainable groundwork for a just Equitable and generative post-prohibition world so I’m very excited to divide him onto the episode today so let’s Dive Right In and learn more about this Innovative movement ahead of us uh you know at the end of the day I thought oh that’s in Colorado
and I couldn’t be more dead wrong about that now and I’m aware but if you could explain for the viewers what the multidisciplinary association for psychedelic studies or as we’ve been utilizing the acronym Maps is and uh what are some of the major successes you’ve been witnessed to during your time at Maps uh you know for example that can be a positive shift in political momentum within communities you know Etc yeah absolutely so Maps is a 501c3 nonprofit that was founded in 1986 which puts us I think at our 37th anniversary this year um and it was founded uh shortly after the criminalization of MDMA in part to um bring both education awareness research and create safe legal access through medical cultural and other context to MDMA and other psychedelics so it started really as an educational research organization um has operated that way for some time and I would say the kind of policy advocacy angle has been sort of baked in from the beginning because of the idea of it coming out in response to and in reaction to um a a movement that was within the kind of traditional War on Drugs as we understand it the kind of move toward criminalization of MDMA um the in 2013-2014 Maps founded a public benefit Corporation a wholly owned subsidiary called the maps public benefit Corporation and that entity for the last decade now or so has been doing a lot of the clinical research and Other Drug development work needed to take MDMA through the FDA approval process and so for the last you know the studies actually started quite a bit before that but for the last you know 20 or so years one of maps’s Flagship projects have been who work with mpbc to take MDMA through the FDA process with the hopes of having it approved as a treatment for PTSD um one and that’s what a lot of the media that people have seen about Maps is for um and just very briefly I can say that we recently completed our second phase three study awesome which is to say that the research phase of it um has closed and now we’re in the process of preparing the application to submit to FDA in the hopes of you know potential future approval so that’s some exciting step that I’m happy to go go more down that rabbit hole and what I’ll say in the meantime is that while all that’s been happening a lot of the work that I get to do because I work on the on the map side the 501c3 side as director of policy a lot of what I get to do is uh keep abreast of track and be navigating and Advising on some of the other things that are happening in parallel to that medicalization process so there’s one process that describe seeing us with other psychedokes too including psilocybin and some others where there’s a process of attempting to take it through the FDA process and the FDA process is really meant for you know it’s best served for single easily replicable molecules that are you know in the kind of traditional pharmaceutical framework and that’s something that I think the second assisted therapy modality somewhat challenges or at least expands where you have this kind of interaction between both a drug the substance and then a modality a human driven modality so that’s the medicalization side what I’ve been very lucky to do over the last bunch of years is work a little bit more outside of that realm so looking also at state level and federal efforts and also International efforts toward decriminalization regulated adult use religious use all the stuff that falls kind of outside of the medicalization sphere so those things obviously interact a lot from a policy perspective and we can go down that rabbit hole for sure especially as we talk about 122 which is a great example of like where you see some of those clashes um but the core idea there is that Maps has both a focus on this kind of medicalization process as well as other formats of engaging with um legalization and progress in that sense the other maybe big area in addition to education and policy that I’d like to note that Maps is really focused on is also harm reduction some people are familiar with the zendo project which is an on-site crisis response program that has worked with festivals the last decade or so um which I think just over a decade now and was recently spent out into its own nonprofit so it’s now becoming an independent entity for the first time and we work very closely with them as well as with others to both create trainings and basically kind of acknowledge that um even with whatever potential psychedelics may have for mental health or individual growth for Spiritual practice so on um that there are risks and that whole idea about having like a robust harm reduction program is to acknowledge that those risks exist and to do our best to incorporate safety crisis response mechanisms into that and I think we don’t talk about this so so much in the Psychedelic world but you know bringing it back around to Peaks like I do feel like that there’s an under understood risk profile of psychedelics you have the the kind of Hysteria machine that are like they’re gonna take Scoops out of your brain and you’re never gonna be the same again and then you’ve got the other side where people are way too excited about this the Silver Bullet effect as I like to say like right like it’s everything they’re going to pick Society they’re gonna fix you they’re going to fix your mom like everyone’s better so I feel like that the truth obviously is somewhere in the middle there are a lot of amazing potential benefits for psychedules and there’s real risks and I think that part of the idea for maps is like how do we hold this whole story we’re not part of the hype machine we’re not part of the Hate Machine we want to be able to say education research um harm reduction policy reform all together all needed yeah yeah absolutely Amen to all of that you know and it’s so true you know as you get into the sort of Pandora’s box here of of the movement and the history of all of this it is a it is a massive discussion and one of the things that you know I I think that we could just you know go into here as well too this is one of the things that I was talking about in front of the Senate finance committee um uh and while I was advocating for natural medicine Health act and you know basically just encouraging don’t make amendments don’t ruin the beauty of its original language that type of thing was it had me thinking about how the addiction treatment industry going back to the 70s when insurance companies um are you know Managed Care Systems started paying for these services and there was this original debate about well whether or not the Western sort of medicalized approach to this you have to have the Master’s Degree the PHD the lpcs all the licensures all those things right and that that person was better suited to treat the individual suffering versus what is no longer language thank goodness they call them paraprofessionals or individuals who had experiences with use and recovery and so the debate became is the paraprofessional better suited or the actual professional in the western medicine sense of thing better suited to treat the individual and I think that debate still kind of rages on today oh yeah and uh and and so one of the things in the uh Senate finance committee that was kind of of an issue is this um fear about the non-western medicalized person delivering these psychedelic medicines to the individual but for me it makes a profound amount of sense that the history and the path and the experiences matter greatly here I think we have an incredible amount to learn from our indigenous communities especially around the concept of reverence and how we deliver these medicines at the end of the day and um I didn’t intend to go down this path but uh you were talking about it all roads all roads are you know available to us here and uh so just curious uh before we maybe dive into some of the the questions that we originally you know talked about kind of what your view is and how we might open because one of my strategies has been let’s let’s open the hearts and minds of individuals out there around this potential without making it seem like you stated a silver bullet it is complex and how we deliver this and how we manage the systems and so forth but I do think it’s really important to highlight that this these medicines have been used for a really long time and with great reverence and with great um professionalism even without that sort of Western lens and just curious for the viewers out there how you might bring them closer to that as a really important part of this project yeah this is um like the other example you gave this is totally something that the debate is going to rage on probably long after we’re both gone because it’s a big question that we’re constantly navigating which is like you know play another way as if I understood you correctly is like how do we reconcile the fact that there’s this highly professionalized approach to health care and how Healthcare delivery often occurs in the United States at least and then with the other side of it which is a and you didn’t say this explicitly but that well there’s there’s the kind of traditional indigenous practice angle which you just mentioned and I would say also um in between those two is kind of a peer support angle where there’s something that’s been happening for years around peers just supporting each other outside of professionalized context and as far as how we hold all those realities that I’m a little a little bit of a broken record about this so sorry if you’ve heard it already but one of the things that I’ve been thinking a lot about in this last year or so a couple years is the possibility of harmonizing different policy approaches and acknowledging that different people have different needs which means different contexts um different kind of safety requirements of course there’s some consistent things that we’d like to see across all of those examples like it would be nice to see something like quality control for products like one day it would be you know maybe even you’ve talked about this like you know the erratic nature of um underground drugs and what’s being sold is is a problem it’s a risk factor it’s a significant risk factor for people so it would be nice to see something like that one one question that goes a little bit more to the edge of what you were bringing up is well what about training what does it mean for someone to be trained to offer these Services that’s an edgy one because on one hand you’ve got the hyper professionalized approach that you were describing we’re like oh you have a license you have a certain level of training your board says you can do this and if you get you know if you get sued for malpractice then you have a defense because you have insurance that will cover you that’s like you know like maybe Peak protection you could say and then you’ve got like a whole bunch of gray areas below that point or kind of on the Spectrum there where people have different levels of protection and different levels of training different levels of expertise and I guess like I mean this is its own very Niche or kind of nuanced conversation but I guess what I would say is I would like to see different points of entry for different types of access so I think that for example if someone has a number of comorbidities a number of diagnoses and they’ve tried a lot of different kinds of medications that haven’t worked so as an example then maybe that person should have more professionalized Specialized Care if they’re trying to do something like detox or wean off of some sort of drug that the dependent on or so on like maybe more comorbidities more complexities higher professionalization maybe maybe on the other side of the spectrum I think that you know for the average 20 something year old who has an average you know average to normal trauma history like they should probably be able to just rent a cabin and go eat mushrooms with their friends like that should probably be fine you know so I feel like that should also be on the table and as far as like the other kinds of use you know one of the things about bringing in traditional indigenous practice into the equation is that I think that there’s been a conflation with um traditional practice and traditional healing what I mean by that is that not all traditional or indigenous use is healing use we’ve kind of pigeonholed psychedelics a little bit in the western conversation in the west because of how excited we are about therapy and about therapeutic applications and there’s a lot of potential there but what that means is that the healing the healing Lobby has sort of monopolized where it’s like we’re talking about something else we got to be talking about healing that’s that’s where we’re at and that’s great because honestly I think it’s maybe from a social perspective healthier for us you know for the average teenager 20 something or whoever who’s stumbling upon informational psychopath it’s probably good at the first thing that they get nowadays A lot of the first information they get is like this is a thing that can be used for treatment like this is the thing that should be cared about if you should be careful with like that’s probably a good thing the flip side to that is when it’s too relied on and suddenly people are like this is like we were just saying this is the Silver Bullet that has to fix me then you have a consumer protection problem because suddenly people are getting information and they think that this is the thing that’s going to fix them but what if it doesn’t right and that I think has its own kind of negative effects so to me there’s like kind of a balance of what are we talking about the use for what claims are people allowed to make what do they like to promote or advertise I have a I know there’s a little bit of a Meandering answer but I’m very very skeptical about advertising for really any drugs any substances whatsoever but psyched oxen especially I’m a little worried about the um like combination of the fact that all these Doom scroll apps that I use have like a whole psychological profile on me and they might know that I’m depressed and they might know that I have what XYZ disposable income and they know that I live in this particular the whatever it is like you know the combination of that kind of uh data slanging that we’ve got in the current kind of Digital World Plus um psychedelic advertising that part kind of freaks me out so I do feel like when we’re going back to your original question how do we reconcile all these different Frameworks like I actually think that we need to look at these macro things which is like consumer protection safety training and then say okay these circumstances are all going to be different based on the what what what claims people can make what things what expectations we’re setting and then just iterate like see what happens when we have a medical system and an adult use system in the same state you know maybe we’ll get into that in a second but what happens when we have multiple approaches operating simultaneously I think that there’s a there’s been kind of a lack of policy imagination which is like we have to choose one you have to either just decriminalize or you have to just medicalize or you have to do this and I don’t really buy that I believe that it’s possible that all these things can coexist the reason I don’t have a nice packaged answer for you for that question is because like I don’t know how yet but I’m here to like figure it out you know with you and all of our many colleagues that are also trying to solve this problem absolutely the thing that I would highlight after everything you stated there just for the viewers out there you know whether it was the Coalition director we had on whether it’s the doctors psychiatrists people involved in this movement that every time we ask these questions or we dive into them there’s clearly a lot of thought being put into this there is a lot of potential there are also a lot of concerns there are also a lot of things to address you know within this uh kind of prohibition era if I can use such language uh yet in society and uh there is I think General concern across the board for doing this correctly and figuring out a path forward that reduces as much risk and harm as possible but also highlighting that risk and harm is going to be a part of this process as is the case with I think anything else we’ve tried from a treatment standpoint from a medicine standpoint and so forth and differently into your point about advertising instead of stating you can’t sleep here’s a psychedelic you can’t you know as these monotherapeutic interventions We’re actually inviting in a conversation for this might work here it might work better up over here and it might not work at all over here and the only way to really get involved with that is to be curious about it and to learn from our mistakes and heal from those mistakes forward-looking and I think one of the things that’s challenging about this movement and its current state is there’s so much fear baked in so we want all of this guaranteed certainty out in front of us as a protection and I think that’s the thing that got us caught in Prohibition in the first place right we were too fearful first we put in all these laws and then after an incredible failure of drug policy over the past you know especially post kind of nixonian era have discovered that is completely ineffective and it’s had an incredible amount of consequences not just you know socioeconomically for the individuals um uh for this process but I think all across America and certainly the world it’s created kind of a nightmare for how to confront um the best possible reality and how to move forward um I don’t know if I want to add anything to that but that was just kind of top of mind that yeah no I I love that and what I guess what I’ll say is two things one and this is not a correction but just an additional layer like I like to say that the War on Drugs failed on some levels and succeeded on some levels right because I do think that insofar as it was meant to be also a form of kind of social political control that has been wildly successful but has led to a serious backlash and I think what’s happening now is that the increasingly bipartisan push across the country to look at drug policy reform is showing that you can only operate kind of mask off I guess you could say for so long like once it became clear once we got the numbers and once it became really clear to the public I think this was probably clear to the makers of the policy in the beginning but I think when it became clear to the public that the War on Drugs was um a failure according to its stated metrics and a success according to these like Shadow metrics of racism and oppression people were like wait a minute we got to figure out how to do this a little bit we got to figure out how to do this differently and you know no one no one is saying addiction isn’t real or drug harms aren’t real like we’re all like I think that there’s kind of a reconciling happening between okay yeah drugs have risks but the way to respond to those risks is not incarceration and so on it’s trying to find some alternative option and going back to the first thing you were saying also I would just add that you know I think that there is a very valuable framing when talking about psychedelics especially for people who are looking at them for personal growth for healing for so on um to think of it as um to think of them as as kind of tools to clear the trail heads like so you’re like aware that there’s ways to the top of a mountain the psychotics are not gonna like slingshot you up there they’re not gonna put you on a tushy helicopter and take you to the top but they will you know help clear the brush and be like okay here’s a Trailhead you can choose whether or not you go down and I’m sure that you’ve talked about this and think about this but like that’s where kind of the conversation for me goes beyond the Psychedelic itself it’s not even about the substance or the experience like those are key threshold points key um milestones in a person’s Journey for those people that are interested in exploring that but we all know and um I think many of us in the field are tracking this that you know this I bet a lot of people you work with know this and about a list a lot of listeners as well but like at the end of the day like they’re a lot of the work that you have to do to do the healing you got to do sober in your day-to-day routine in your day-to-day life like that is and that’s what I feel like is so interesting about this whole conversation that it’s actually psychedelics is so much more about giving people the inspiration and direction to do things themselves which is part of why I think when they are effective for let’s say you know dealing with substance use disorders or other kinds of treatments when they when they do have those benefits often it’s not because the thing like the drug itself kind of by itself like changes a significant thing what it does it opens people up so they can do this inner work suddenly they’ve like kind of you know I mean this in a good way trick themselves into figuring out there’s hope you know and I’m like yo we’ll take it where we can get it people it’s it’s we’re really lacking that nowadays so I’m happy to to have that opportunity you know to have that option for some people yeah absolutely and what resonates with me is certainly the kind of the way that we approach treatment you know within our own program and curriculum is the spiderweb concept monotherapeutic values have this high end density in the beginning of the research the founders of them cognitive behavioral therapy ssris whatever it is you know come from showcase like this is it this is the thing that’s going to fix this and I think we’ve been we’ve become so attuned at least in my experience within certainly American culture to there’s a fix and a solution to your problem it’s right here and you know you’re getting blasted with advertisements and that sort of thing and we’ve lost our genuine and general capacity uh as with this inner body healing framework to succeed on that journey within ourselves and to your point I think that’s the beauty for us here at least from a treatment center kind of standpoint about what these medicines can bring about they’re not going to fix anything in this sense of you know changing something in your maybe it does you know maybe for some people it’ll be so eye-opening and moving that it resolves other issues in that kind of moment but I think for most people it’s it’s to your point the trailhead it’s it’s showcasing the journey in front of you but more beautifully than the Western medicine sense of things I think historically you come into a treatment center we kind of you know create awareness and then we kind of tell what to do in that regard versus allowing the person to explore their own opportunity from our own lens uh and so I think there’s a lot of power uh coming down the shoots here and and I know we’re going to dive into this here shortly uh but uh just to uh keep it going uh before we we get into this uh more uh poignant part of the conversation um so much you stated a lot um at least in the way that I’m not familiar to hearing when it comes to the war on drugs and this type of thing and I think that it’s such a broad stroke of language that for a lot of people out there on the political Spectrum it can mean one thing or the other or it just means you know one side of history and the other side of History but in kind of uh you’ve talked about uh this in the past but uh and I’m curious about it because I’ve never heard of it in context but it’s striking me as something that’s important and missing at least in my historical context uh about but but how did colonization lay the groundwork for the War on Drugs uh in this regard I’d never heard that language used until I I heard you and another podcaster uh surveying it out there um but if you could just invite in the viewers a little bit into your uh understanding of what kind of led to this through that lens of colonization absolutely yeah I mean there’s a short version there’s a long version I’ll stick with the short version because they have a limited time but I think it’ll get the main point across so the core idea behind this language colonization that the groundwork for the War on Drugs is that if we look at the um kind of original intention of the War on Drugs capital W capital the the thing that started during you know the Nixon and Reagan administrations then what we see is kind of two primary goals um one is ostensibly to reduce the risk and the scourge of drugs on society and that’s where we’re like how do we you know the goals there were reduced drug use reduce addiction all that good stuff um reduce Reliance on the cartels which were less of a factor than our increasing effector increasing have been increasingly effective over the last 50 years um and if you look at just those metrics like lots of failure drug uses up drug use is more concentrated it’s more dangerous all that good stuff um if you look at the other side of the equation which is what I was kind of just touching on you see a social political um incentives to uh pass policy that would lead to the War on Drugs the control Substances Act and so on the CSA does not exist in a vacuum this control Substances Act passed in 1971 is the culmination of really like itself 50 years of bills that were passed across the country to start to criminalize um various drugs starting in the 1930s with cannabis and that itself 1930s that itself is a legacy of a process started in the late 1800s of going from we’re going to control we’re going to sell drugs this is what a lot of large companies were doing the British East India Company the Dutch East into company like you see these large Colonial Powers the Dutch the British and so on selling drugs they’re selling opium they’re selling tea and coffee caffeine they’re selling alcohol like that’s a major part of their trade system and it wasn’t until the United States itself brought in kind of momentum to criminalize these substances in the late 1800s that we even were having a global conversation about criminalizing drugs before that it was just how do we make money off of it the reason I start with this conversation around colonization laying the groundwork for the War on Drugs is because the logic that ended up permeating the Modern War on Drugs that there are social cultural political Norms that we want to establish in society and we can do that by restricting human access to certain substances that concept started during the colonization of the quote-unquote new world there are reports in the late 1500s early 1600s of the Catholic Church the Spanish and the Portuguese and other governments seeing the ritual use of plants by native people who are living in Central South America North America and identifying that as a essential aspect of the culture where like this relationship to plants this relationship to these to the ceremony to the altered state that actually being a core component of society in that time and then the intentional eradication of those links to those Traditions as a way to exert power so some people would go so far as to calling that a cultural genocide because you actually have a robust cultural tradition and practice that exists within a people settlers arrive they see the importance of those practices and they’re like if we want to disrupt this culture we can’t just kill people we also have to separate them from their culture this has happened across the world in colonial situations everywhere on the globe and that happened in Central and South America so to me there is a thread between the desire to separate people from their cultural identity by Banning by calling peyote and mushrooms demonic by saying that the ceremony is demonic by disassociating it from the kind of virtuous practice of Christianity and in the process of I’m sure you know people have seen the photos of like native people who had their hair cut or who had they had to go to boarding school there’s like all these of course including including and not limited to the genocide the active kind of perpetuation of violence there’s all of these levels where that’s all happening and the the whole conversation about how that was actually also happening to substances substance use and cultural use a lot of that has disappeared because it happened so early it was one of the earliest things to happen was the separation of those cultures from their plan practices so to me colonization leading the groundwork for the one on drugs means colonization is the first time where we see of the again quote unquote you know so-called new world like colonization is where you start to see an intentional separation an intentional kind of wedge being placed between people and these practices that are part of their cultural tradition to me that is not so different from the desire in the 60s and 70s to say oh black people who are you know people African-American people who are listening to Jazz and doing this and that like let’s let what are they using you know the Mexican Amer the Mexican people who are using cannabis who are associated with marijuana in the 30s like the Chinese people who are associated with opium in the 80s and 1980s or sorry 1880s it’s the same story different cultures different drugs but it’s just been happening for 500 years so I’m just saying this whole conversation didn’t start 50 years ago or 3500 years ago and we’re seeing kind of that Legacy play out over and over and over and over again fascinating and thank you so much for the short answer I can only imagine yeah totally what the longer version is like but I think that’s imperative I mean for me and you know naively in the western you know traditional sense of things I I kind of just see Nixon and then to Reagan and then here we are today and uh and so much of History can get buried or lost in these energized discussions in political indifferences and I’m appreciative of you bringing that close to the viewers so they can hopefully on the other side of these screens you know explore you know what you’ve been talking about and really the incredible history that’s led us to this moment uh that we’re living in today so very much appreciate that you showcasing that right great as far as and you know time is always of the essence in this busy moving world that we’re in but you know I do want to dive into yeah one of the things that uh uh the issue around consumption and dive a little bit into the fears and have a discussion about you know kind of what I’m seeing kind of on the boots on the ground level and I talked about in my advocacy in the Senate finance committee um uh the the those who are resistance not the right where those uh opposed to it or who have a lot of curiosity about how this might get done better through the fears of the um you know past legislation one of the unfortunate experiences right before I advocated for our side of this bill and measure with these two mothers who came on and talked about how their loved ones went on you know the internet and got this God dose you know delivered to their doorstep and got an incredible amount of these medicines in their system that ultimately led to their untimely death jumping off of a balcony and dying in mom’s arms and you know really tragic instances uh that one I think we just want to be transparent and talk about because this is the reality of misinformation and um you know uh educational opportunities that are missed and consumption-driven mindsets that frame uh drug use uh in general especially here in uh well certainly here in America right you know everything daily intoxication I’d be curious to hear your perspective on marijuana legislation compared to psychedelic legislation and uh to be clear both are Monumental achievements in the post kind of prohibition era uh but I think one of the things we got wrong on the side of marijuana legislation via the consumption uh driven mindset was to State something like marijuana daily for depression and uh for me that was wrong because I think that marijuana as a medicine or a drug if we’re going to call it that it really elicits an experience of at times I feel anxious I feel paranoid I feel you know whatever the case might be and for me I think this is often lost on society but in my light reading of Bob Marley and his history he utilized those experiences as like oh I’m anxious for something you know marijuana is supposed to be sort of the cherry on top of the ice cream at the end and now he’s going through the process and experiencing anxiety he didn’t smoke more weed to deal with the anxiety in my understanding of of the literature he stepped away from marijuana to explore that further so the marijuana created the awareness and then outside of that yeah yeah and in the you know advertising sense of things it’s like well I need to take this daily and yeah I think that’s incorrect um and we can dive into it together but also with the psychedelics in plant-based medicine we are kind of Shifting that perspective quite a bit and just curious about your thoughts in reference to the marijuana legislation and we’re out of psychedelics because so much of the fear that I heard within the Senate Finance Community here in Colorado was this is just like marijuana everybody’s going to have access everybody’s going to be doing this all the time you know kind of slippery slope you know uh type logic there and uh so yeah just curious for the viewers out there what your insights are into kind of that Collision yeah there’s a couple of threads that I’ll go down real quick so the first around um maybe I’ll talk about the differences between psychedelics and marijuana broadly and then a little bit more about the policy differences um and which touches on both of the things that you that you brought on so first off I would say that unlike cannabis psychedelics resist being used daily and not to say you can’t do it because people do but I think that they resist it and I think that that is to say that they also resist um kind of being treated like a um daily consumable commodity again it happens but uh anecdotally you know I’ve spent more than half of my life around people who use drugs of all kinds and I have I probably know you know literally 50 times more daily cannabis consumers than I know daily or even near Daily Mushroom or any other psychedelic consumers and that’s partially because a very practical bio biophysiological reasons including tolerance jumps and how all that stuff happens with different substances um but that doesn’t just mean that like it shifts the dynamic around what you know problematic or substance use disorders might look like with those substances it also means that the way that we think about um the harms is a little bit different so whereas you might say you know one of the potential risks of cannabis use is Habitual use that that then goes beyond what is actually good for a person and you know they might know that it’s more it’s not helping them but they keep doing it that’s kind of a classic symptom as I know you know of a substance use disorder um but you can keep smoking weed and it’ll keep working it working meaning like it’ll keep having an effect on your body like you know eventually you can smoke yourself sober but I say that to say that like or some people experience that where they’re like okay they’re they’re tolerance is so high that they’re not able to kind of alter their Stadium as a result of it but the reason I bring that aspect up is because with psychedelics it’s a little bit different most psychedelics have such a big tolerance jump but if you try to use it daily or near daily it just literally stops working like what your body doesn’t that doesn’t have an effect and um there are other kind of secondary effects that come up now and that we all know that negative effects of substance use does not deter all people so that’s like only a limited consolation and um the other kind of big practical difference I would say are two of the other big practical differences are one the way that we’ve talked about psychedules as a tool to help people you know medically or kind of therapeutically so often has with it this key element of some sort of guiding facilitation peer support aspect and that means that from an economic perspective it’s a very different dynamic because you’re not just buying a drug store kind but you’re actually buying a service direct to paying for is taking a service in addition to access to the thing so that is a major kind of economic shift or like how I think you know the drug will be bought and sold and so on and then the other kind of key difference I would say is that um the like the conversation and this kind of just what you’re saying around like what the public perception the conversation that’s like you know is much less I should say there’s much less support for the idea that this is a thing you should do every day like with cannabis you can really see how like I’ve seen people who are dealing with um cancer in particular for whom daily cannabis use is absolutely the best thing for them because of the appetite because of the other aspects appetite sleep support so on um that Tempo may not be the same for someone who even who’s using cannabis for a mental health issue maybe for a mental health issue actually when you use it with a with a lower frequency and you can still get the benefits or you only need to use it in acute situations and still get the benefits or I love the anecdote you gave because to me that sounds like treating cannabis like a psychedelic it’s like oh it shows you something so go figure out what that is spend some time on that before you come back to it in some ways it’s a form of integration I love that um so I think you really see that conflation of being like Oh daily use oh it’s okay for these people so it must be okay for these people so I could see that happening with psychedelics where we’re like oh like you know thankfully there’s and I’m not going to even mention it here but there are very few not zero but very few conversations that daily psychedelic use and all of the experts that I know can’t take that stuff seriously like I have yet to hear a person who’s like yeah you should be taking literally any psychedelic every day like even if it’s even if you’re talking about micro dosing like no one even says micro dose mushrooms every day at least not responsible people I haven’t I mean not that it doesn’t happen people say that but as far as anything reminded regarding the evidence anecdotes like that’s just not there that’s one aspect which we can go down more and then the other thing I want to touch on is the difference between cannabis and psychedelic policy which kind of goes to what the regulators and the legislators are worried about that like we don’t want this to be another you know high volume production storefront situation we have to deal with additional licenses and all of the drama of dealing with who gets what kind of regulatory permissions and like it’s a whole thing and I guess the big you know people compare psychedelics and cannabis a lot and I think that there’s some places where you see similarity notably in like you know the government is trying to figure out how to incorporate a drug or a substance that they’ve mostly just demonized and avoided having any serious conversations about now we’re like okay we’re just gonna put it on the market and I kind of blame the kind of history of the way the government has navigated this question um there’s a reason we don’t have good information and it’s not because the people who have been smoking it haven’t been asking questions just because there hasn’t been the opportunity for cannabis to actually like get good research on now we’re trying to do it but we’re doing it racing against like state regulatory or state um legislative and policy changes and now we’re like at the cusp maybe maybe a federal federal changes there with can with psychedelics because the kind of serious policy conversation started later and it started after more clinical research had been done um we have a little bit more of a scientific evidence base the problem I think that comes up there is that a good scientific evidence base from clinical double-blind trials or whatever does not always extrapolate well to a state or federal level policy conversation you know there’s some overlap but not always so I guess what I see now is this um move toward figuring out how do we bridge that gap between what we know scientifically research-wise and what we know we don’t know from a policy perspective those are you know those are some distance apart and we can start to fill in the gaps bit by bit with some of the things we talked about earlier training advertising consumer protection like that kind of stuff that we’re like well regardless of the beneficial effects or risk regardless of where it comes from like we all know at the very least if someone’s buying something you should be able to get an accurate ingredient list everyone agrees with that one you know so I do think that we’re kind of in this stage sort of of being like where do we pull the thing that we know we know but plug that stuff in how do I identify what we know we don’t know hold those questions open and then like iterate as we go so going just to kind of succinctly get back to your main question like I think that one of the big differences with cannabis and psychedelics is that there was a desire or kind of this fantasy maybe among the movement with with cannabis that it wouldn’t be around among some I should say lots of people predicted this so I don’t mean to undermine that but that it would just be just another product that as soon as it got into the market we could just sell like another product like you were just saying could be part of the consumerification of everything we can all just become more consumers of more things great another product to sell no big deal nothing special I think people are rightfully freaked out about that with cannabis I don’t think that cannabis which is a beautiful powerful sacred plant necessarily wants to be treated like a thing where you can just put into any gummy with all the sugar and all the things and just sell it storefront like I don’t know and I think that if the trade-off is we gotta in order to reduce criminalization we must have some sort of Market solution then I see that as like this kind of bigger meta problem of how we deal with stuff in society which is like oh so the only way we can have a responsible conversation about this is if we’re talking about whether or not we sell it in a market okay so that just brings all the baggage of the market dealing with late stage capitalism all this stuff all of that is going to be true with psychedelics the Dynamics going to be different it might not be storefront because there’s guides it might not be just a sold product because you can’t do it every day like you do with other stuff but I think that the concerns about corporatization the like lower quality control standards the weird sketchy advertisement all that stuff that’s come with canvas yeah we have to deal with all that yeah beautifully stated and you know to me it I I guess the to recapitulate it sounds like with the Psychedelic movement the research is a little bit ahead of the policy and that’s positive to think about right because we have a little bit more to Anchor into and our understanding of the delivery of the medicines and with cannabis we put in policy first and it raised the head of the research that’s now kind of trailing it and to the notion of kind of responsible use in that regard in a perfect world if it’s Izzy’s world right now I don’t know if there’s a clear answer for it but how would you on the side of cannabis get that much closer to where the Psychedelic movement is at from policy and research and in this kind of perfect world scenario for the viewers out there uh how would you bring those to considerations closer together in a way that uh at least at the level of the State uh participants that I’ve been around fear that the market is going to continued outpace cannabis to which there is no ability to bring that research close to it yeah I mean I think this is a big conversation a big question that you just asked but I’ll say that one I don’t think I’m as worried about it as some people are not because I am so excited about the possibility of the corporatization of psychedelia um I’m not to be clear but because I feel about like in some ways in some ways the attempt to control the market of these substances and the kind of cultivation and the distribution of some of these substances in particular the plants you know even though I’m like really committed to this mission of making it figuring out how to make it as you know properly designed as possible for this post-prohibition area that we’re hoping to you know step into um I think it’s kind of futile and I said I say that not to undermine my own work but to say that like we’re talking about plants like at the end of the day a lot of the especially you know going back with the Colorado example in particular like talking about plants that grow in a lot of places like as long as home grow was present for all of the Cannabis regulatory changes and all the Cannabis legal changes you know we can be really upset about and probably should be skeptical about the multi-state operators all of the corporatization and the monopolization of the Cannabis industry and at the end of the day most people could grow it themselves and it’s a little bit you know it’s expensive requires some skill not everyone can do it but we can do that we don’t have to rely on these large companies to get it and I think I feel the same way about psychedelics like I think that this is going to be different with synthetics it’s its own whole conversation for sure but for mushrooms for San Pedro for other things like we will there will always be people who grow who grow them and as long as the policy shifts ensure protection for the cultivators and for the people who are giving that to their Community sharing that with their Community then I think we’re going to be okay like there will be a need for some people for a super pharmaceuticalized super dialed product you know I saw this a lot with medical cannabis when recreational or adult use cannabis swept the country one of the losses that happened although it did increase access to most people was what one might call it medical grade that’s kind of a euphemism but medical like tested products and for people who have cancer or compromised immune system they actually can’t just go to the open market and get a gummy they actually need something that has a higher quality control standard so I see that similarly here like I don’t want to lose the possibility of having a very very precise formulated product I think that that’s really good I just think that we can’t only have that we also need to be able to grow mushrooms at home you know so I think that like to me that’s the balance as long as we can have those things at the same time then like the rest is going to happen at the pace that happens it’s a little bit of a delusion to think that we should and I’m saying you’re saying this at all but it’s a little bit of a delusion to think that like we have to wait for the right amount of research because once we have that then we can know it’s safe I’m like we can do that and we should do that from a regulatory perspective like I don’t expect the government to be making moves on things that they don’t feel pretty secure about totally understandable medical institutions same like healthcare go through the processes for sure but like literally millions and millions and millions of people have used all these things and we have a we’re not coming from nothing with the risk this isn’t a new molecule that was invented yesterday we have like pretty good naturalistic evidence about what kinds of risks to be concerned about as long as they’re being compiled as long as they’re being shared like let’s do that the one caveat I would say to that is I do think that with better data capture we do get better information so post legalization of cannabis I think we have better information now about the risks of cannabis because there isn’t the same stigma to studying it so I do think that we might not they’re like new things may not emerge but we may learn more about the kinds of risks and benefits that exist with psychedelics because we’re actually able to get good information and don’t have to be operating under the kind of shadow of stigma all the time so I do think that you you know to your question like moving toward a balance between naturalistic observational evidence which to me is enough to say well we probably shouldn’t criminalize the behavior we can probably say that right now I don’t need more evidence to say we shouldn’t be criminalizing people growing around mushrooms you’re not going to get into me otherwise but if you’re talking about should you be able to make claims about treating something should people be able to use it if they’re medical providers with expectations does insurance cover you for malpractice like yeah let’s get some evidence for that those are good things we want to have more details for so I kind of feel to just multi-tier like to me these things are not mutually exclusive those things can occur at the same time it’s complicated like it kind of breaks your brain to think how do we have a license framework and also an unlicensed framework you know thinking about 122 in Colorado it’s like The Regulators are going to have a fun and complex time over the next two years figuring out how do you have a regulated and unregulated system at the same time I personally love that question like we should have both they’re going to be different expectations and norms for the providers like but let’s solve that problem like why would we have to limit our imagination to say you only get one option which we know doesn’t cover all the bases
and this is truly wonderful the vote that I would put on that too as well again for the viewers is like people like you as a deep deeply immersed in the movement and uh you know for the past few decades are thoughtfully considering this and I think the public has such a reference point of you know maybe hippie culture maybe you know the LSD slipping over the gates of research into the public sphere and you know tune in and shut out and all that you know type of language that exists that this is the core of the movement but actually the core of the movement is is quite considerate of all of its possibilities and all of the potential consequences uh that come with this and as diligently and as thoughtfully as as we can be within this movement trying to answer really challenging questions and bring forward something positive um but it’s not going to be without no negotiation without its consequences and and for the sake of time here I uh we’re we’re gonna have to have some coffee or something in the future is he at some point because um I just want to continue to pick your brain uh about all of this and certainly and just want to know you more as a person as well too um you’re you are a fascinating and inviting person to have a conversation with and so I’m grateful for this experience but to take us out here maybe for a last question I know I gave you like 100 questions or whatever on a word spreadsheet but you know time is what it is I’m very excited about where we’re at I see as possibilities I see the opportunity for negotiation in a way that we’ve not had in the public sphere certainly at the level of the federal government you know State local municipalities so this is very exciting times but around you know kind of where we’re at and you being more immersed in it in a way than I could possibly be at this point what are you feeling that this movement in the direction and where we’re at is sustainable and uh if it is what would you caution those who are speaking to the public uh in the future about so we don’t disrupt and sustainability inform them as a movement yeah there’s like a nice art of forward momentum a balancing forward momentum with like the you know getting your chin out in front of your knees kind of situation where we’re like a little too excited yeah no I mean uh I think that it’s sustainable because it’s self-regulating and what I mean by that is like and I don’t wanna you know I don’t wish ill Amma upon anyone and also I think without naming names they’ll kind of large economic shifts that are happening within the industry right now the kind of what we’re seeing around different companies shifting services or getting closed or merging or acquired like you kind of see this kind of self-correcting mechanism where there’s only a limited carrying capacity that exists within the industry like there’s only so much money to go around there’s only so much there’s only so much expertise and people and time so so it’s not always sustainable but it like the system kind of forces it to be sustainable by limiting when things were moving too fast um so I do believe in kind of an inner oh God I can’t believe I’m saying this but kind of an inner healing intelligence I guess you could say even of that kind of larger ecosystem to say like oh well when things go beyond what they’re actually able to carry like there will be an adjustment um and I do think that there is a certain level of um like so so what I mean by that is like acutely I would say yeah like I would say the hype is a bit unsustainable right now like the story about how cool and beneficial and potentially helpful psychedelics may or may not be like all of that stuff like it’s probably a little bit ahead of what the science actually says and what we really know and what’s really great to say but if I zoom out I’m like oh that will be adjusted though like there will come a time like that line can’t sustain itself that partial truth can’t sustain itself so in that sense I see it as sustainable and to kind of more directly answer your question I do think that there would be a lot of benefit to um really holding both the potential benefit and these like risks and concerns and probably a more kind of nuanced detailed conversation about what we do about those things I think that what I see is concerns about a lot of simultaneous concerns that need to be reconciled people want increased access to people who are marginalized people also want the research to slow down and be better because of ethical concerns because it concerns of violations or abuse or boundary or boundary issues and so on um we can do both of those things but we need to be aware that there’s tensions that like reducing the cost for the patient means May mean reducing the capacity of this modality to be something that a provider can get a lived income off of do we get the money from the government do we so there’s all of these kind of questions that come up when we’re dealing with the tension the tensions and values that I think a lot of us are holding and I don’t think that means we shouldn’t hold it be with attention I think it just means that we need to be aware that like everything is a series of trade-offs and to me sustainability within the within the movement would just be that acknowledging that everything is a trade-off there is no there is no like untainted option like every single direction we can take is going to have risks and it’s going to have potential benefits and you know going to something you were saying earlier and maybe as a way to kind of close this phase of the conversation is like yes there are absolutely risks to Bringing these things into society decriminalizing especially without good education harm reduction crisis response we didn’t even touch on that but there should be massive government investment into education harm reduction and crisis response like to me that’s very obvious that that shouldn’t be done by civil society that Scrappy philanthropy-backed nonprofits should not be holding that public health burden that should be something that the government should be involved in paying for same with Recovery Services like there should be so many more research to allocated to this if it doesn’t have to come from private dollars of philanthry that’s just my opinion but I say that to say that like while we are moving towards decriminalization I can say yes there’s risks yes we should have better services and a safety units is worth it and the risk of us maintaining illegality is still greater than those things like I can hold both of those truths like just that there’s risk does not mean that it’s not less worth it and you know you see we’re not going to go down this rival right now because it’s a dumb conversation but you see there’s a lot come up with ibogaine with ebola and I begin an addiction and substance use assertive treatment where it’s like there’s very real health risks with ibogain and Ebola there’s very real cardio risks there’s a very real trauma risks like people do get re-triggered and get all kinds of stuff happen when they have you know an improperly held the ibogain or Ebola experience but is the risk of having that come online lower or greater than the risk of having right now no really effective funded solutions for substance abuse disorders and then you know just having record and increasing records you know record numbers of people dying of Overdose I don’t know that is a trade-off you know so anyway that’s a bit of a morbid place to end but that’s it’s real everything you just stated I think is so valuable and I have always advocated for transparency within treatment culture right never over promising and under delivering this is what we can do this is the delicacy in it here are the outcomes and the challenges associated with your loved ones Journey moving forward uh in this regard and being transparent about this and open-minded open-heart open mind towards its possibilities but also towards its risks I think invites in a discussion rather than pushing people away from the discussion um into their own perspective or what they thought was going to be the reality of all of this and so you know I I very much appreciate the transparency and holding space for the delicacy of our situation uh globally and certainly as a society here in America and how to balance this discussion it cannot just be a uh I think you would share this and correct me if I’m wrong it can’t be like completely illegal to everything is legal now all of a sudden a balance in here in a discussion to arrive at the least amount of harm with the greatest positive societal benefit at the end of the day and it’s going to be a discussion for I would imagine decades if not centuries to come in front of us and um so very excited and very pleased with your view of this your approach to this and your insights into it as well we will have to do coffee or this again sometime in the future I certainly hope to cross your path again Izzy this has been really uh empowering hopefully for the viewers and their understanding but certainly as somebody who’s getting closer to the movement with a lot less history than you it’s just exciting to continue to meet professionals out there thinking about these things on behalf of society and trying to nurture and balance uh a challenging discussion at times and and with that I’m hopeful you know maybe you can kind of take us out what exciting projects you’re working on where maybe uh would you you know like to point the viewers as to resources or anything of that that you would like to take us out out with that you feel passionate about at this time yeah no thank you so much this has been a great conversation maybe I’ll just close by plugging our conference so um we’ll be having a conference in Denver actually you know at the end of June which I’m really excited about psychedelic science 2023 so that’s happening um and there will be just way more to do than you can possibly imagine lots of stages it’ll be like a festival where you have to make really bad choices between the two artists that you really want to see but with kind of like a nerdy version of that so um that that’s happening in June which I’m really excited about and then I think the other thing that I’d like to give a shout out to is you know there’s a whole kind of ecosystem out there of people who are working on all these different aspects of the field and I’d really you know especially for people who are interested in the law or legal work um I’d invite them to check out the Psychedelic bar associations just the psychedelicbar.org um it’s an organization that I co-founded with some colleagues of mine that is really around like kind of um cultural onboarding you could say uh people in the legal field of how to think about some of these like very big very complex questions that we’re all navigating all the time so give them a shout out um and yeah besides that like I think that this year a lot of this year is going to be okay now that we’re a couple years away from the beginning of this state level projects it’s going to be what what have we learned in the last couple years and I think Colorado as a state you know with the regulatory agency or the regulatory board and so on is going to be sorting through a lot of those questions like what have we learned over the last couple years and um what do we want to be the ones to learn you know as we as the state kind of moves toward whatever this next phase of the Paradigm is so um yeah thanks again I hope to see you in person at some point I would love to cross paths again or I’m happy to join this again and we can spend an hour and a half on any of the things that we talked about today so I’m happy to go all the way into the details yeah well you I was I was debating because there’s so much proximity for me and I’m and uh you know I don’t want to sound like too privileged here but I’ve I’ve been so blessed to be in front of so many individuals here in the state kind of pushing forward this movement that I feel like oh I don’t have to go to that psychedelic conference in Denver whatever but right absolutely if uh Maps is throwing it and you’re going to be there as part of that uh I I’m gonna stand my ticket today and hopefully see you around there at that time I think I think it’ll be I don’t think you’ll regret it there will be a lot there’s literally like nine stages simultaneously every day like it’s gonna be overwhelming but the in the in the good way I hope and we’ll have some really good conversations about some of these policy questions too that’ll be happening on the policy stage we have an amazing Society stage where we’ll have like a whole half day just about different forms of harm reduction so yeah yeah I hope to see you there I’ll say that wonderful well thank you so much Lindsay for your time continued success in all that you do grateful for your representation out there in the world and uh yeah looking forward to next time until then thank you so much until next time then all right everybody that’s a wrap for this special episode of Finding Peaks thank you so much for joining us today and my sincere hope at the end of the day as I reiterated throughout the episode is that you can hear that this movement is thoughtful it’s considerate it’s concerned and it’s thinking about how to deliver this in the most positive beneficial way to society and so you know to Ismail and Izzy as we were referring to him throughout the episode again thank you so much for being here for all the people out there uh hopefully we can find extended clips on all the social medias the Facebook the twitters the tick tocks all the things and as I always State I believe our social media assets are going to be far more positive than the general Spectrum so check us out

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Episode 103Exploring Aftercare, IOP, and AlumniWatch Nowhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59UQdUcizuAListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Chris Burns brings Matt Marchand, Alumni Coordinator, back on the show to discuss aftercare, alumni, and transitioning after treatment. Matt shares insights from his time as a peer recovery coach and how he uses those experiences as a way to help clients through the aftercare process.

Talking Points1. A brief look into Aftercare 2. Transitioning after residential treatment 3. The difference in approach to client and family 4. The difference in Alumni approach now 5. Final thoughts Quotes

“Life is hard, and we go back into it. We still have jobs, and we still have families, and we still have all these other things, and sometimes we forget about ourselves. And especially in the alums. And Peaks will not forget about you, and you shouldn’t forget about yourself. ”– Matt Marchand, Alumni Coordinator.

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -103- Transcriptseverybody and welcome to another amazing episode of Finding Peaks your host truly Chris Burns president and founder better known as our recovery cheerleader here on campus and afar I’m joined by our alumni coordinator and one of my good friends Matthew marshan great to have you on the show today bud thanks absolutely the last time we had Matt on I want to say was probably over a year ago around that yeah around a year ago we had Jason freesmon and it was an amazing show it’s just he and I today and we want to talk about something really really important not only for the viewers but folks that are encouraged and make the great decision to check into an inpatient program and we’re going to talk a lot about Aftercare and transitioning and alumni and kind of those some of the specificities behind how we do what we do and why we think it matters so much but first I want to check in with Matt in regards to you know his old role here at Peaks recovery centers was a peer recovery coach he is still one of our peer recovery coaches but she’s transitioned into the alumni coordination role which really we were talking before the show encompasses a wide variety of things and so I just want to touch on Matt’s new role a little bit kind of what he’s working on here at Peaks recovery and then we’ll get into the conversation in and around how we’re walking people through not that just the inpatient process but the outpatient process and specifically integration in the community so take it away that so um I think that like starting off in the puritivity coach role at our IOP or just in general Aftercare um really sent me up for what the alumni program could look like because we’re kind of starting from scratch and which I’m very grateful to be able to do that and not have walk into a a rigid outline that program for clients that transition back into the community after Ohio all throughout that too oh so we get to make it as we go um and that is unique because of the uniqueness of our program as an entirety you know it would be easy to uh say okay we’re going to hold an 8A meeting every Jew thing and we’re going to show up and do a barbecue every three months and that’s what it’s going to look like and we are so far from that in what’s being developed uh you know one thing about Peaks is we always pay attention to what the clients need and not what like 50 years of like so-so is going to say but like what the evolving client is run and so we’re we’re doing that also in the alumni program as well uh just kind of getting outside of the the easy box and and you know interacting with what they’re going through today yeah I love that man it’s such a breather fresh air to sit here and talk with Matt before the show because you know for the first 10 years of my career you know outcomes with a lot of these modalities and specifically some of these older uh research resources within the community you know the outcomes are abysmal we’re talking 10 to 12 percent and so I love the progressiveness of which we approach mental health care because it needs to shift it needs to change we need to have a fresh perspective on the way we’re looking at this because we’re losing the people we love for at a warming rates what have you seen we were talking a little bit before the show you shared with me a couple stories but specifically around how we walk people through even the inpatient setting with respect to willingness because this is a word that’s been thrown around since 1935 to say you have to be honest you have to be open-minded and you have to be willing but what we understand from a research-based perspective today is that those three underpinnings are informed in a variety of ways through Community Support our connection with family community and culture counterbalancing with peers but what have you been able to see and witness a bear witness to and be a part of throughout the inpatient process that really gets people in alignment with the best decision for theirs for themselves so I feel being alone myself and going through the peace program like when I died my first couple days in like I wasn’t really willing I wasn’t really honest and but like I needed time and I needed individual attention to get there because it was achievable and I did get there it just didn’t take me the same amount of time that I took Johnny and more beer or you know um and I think that’s what Peach does really well is that on an individual basis each one of our staff meet the client where they’re at and how long you know we encourage the client to get to their destination and uh on the journey that they’re comfortable we’re not going and pushing the client being like hey you know it’s Wednesday you should be honest by now you know um if it tastes till Friday it tastes till Sunday like we’re still showing up and we’re still just guiding them and giving them suggestions that we’ve already walked through it oh he ain’t no willing to walk through alongside yeah oh and we do that and from our detox episodes all the way to our Aftercare and even Beyond you know we were just talking about um so client said like we haven’t seen anyone yeah and that was obsessively living their lives and whatever success means for them you know and it doesn’t look the same across the board you know um some are doing any you know a program some had we developed their own proof and you know they’re going into they have their therapists that they’ve been seeing for over a year and a half and they have a job and they have an apartment um and that is Success you know uh along the way like were the hiccups possibly sure probably it may not only hopeful yeah because we learned from them oh and so yeah that’s what I mean just what our program does really well and what we’re trying to really harness you know after kicker the IOP especially and the the alumni purpose the continuation uh of dreams and I love that too I love that because I think for a lot of years and I think I mentioned this before but specifically young people have come into recovery where they believe dreams go to die and you know as you were speaking and I know I shared this in group the other day but we’re we’re integrating uh TJ Woodward’s conscious recovery and our curriculum right now and he goes on to tell this story um about President Eisenhower and I’m in a Butch of story no big deal we’ll get the point um but there was a lion that um India it was the somebody high up in the India India now in government or something uh gave this lion to President Eisenhower was a beautiful baked is tiger Bengal tiger beautiful eye but they didn’t have a picture um but basically they couldn’t wait for this lion to come over they got this lion over here and it was in a 12 by 12 enclosure and when they got over here it was supposed to be opened up to this huge Zoo where we have this huge cart for itself but something happened something went a ride where the the lion couldn’t get into its new enclosure for over a year and so that lion for a year circled that 12 by 12 perimeter in figure eights and then after a year or year and a half they get the LIE into this new enclosure and it’s huge and it’s fast and they let the lion out and the lion runs way up in the corner of the enclosure and he does figure eights for the rest of his life until he passes away and when you’re talking about Aftercare I wonder if that’s what young people and mature adults and people of all ages who have been trying the same thing over and over and just hasn’t been working if they come in and we stick another cage over them it’s no wonder why the outcomes are so abysmal and it feels like they’re literally doing figure eights in the same cage that they felt like they were put in and their adolescents or adulthood yeah and that’s so oh unfortunate because like that’s a a great story they go along with the like the reality there’s Al sometimes recovery um has been made to look you know okay you’ve got change off of you you would check this up in the way the depression is kind of simmered down a little bit and boy the expansion I just feel has sometimes been black yeah oh and so I’m like with like an IOP and and Aftercare like this is time for like implementation of what we’re learning are residential but also expaged yeah also like okay let’s talk about those dreams and let’s say let’s make it a roadmap on how we’re going to get there you know because really we don’t need to be confined the the cages lift it and the 12 by 12 is is just there in our minds how do we extend outside of that and like actually get to where we want to go yeah you know it doesn’t have to look like Channel or cater I think yeah can just look like the individual that said that Chronicles 100 and that uh inspiring porn yeah there’s like what works for Johnny doesn’t work for Peter yeah but we’re getting to the same place and that’s cool yeah you shared a story before this I think it’s good for the viewers to hear this and maybe parents of addicted loved ones or family members is like we will you know part is seeing somebody and valuing them and hearing them is actually doing just that and so when somebody comes into our program and in the first couple weeks we say to a young adult hey you know you ought to check out this sober living in this IOP and they say something back like no I don’t want to do that I’m going to do the apartment thing for us to continue to push into that at least in my experience over 15 years of doing that it’s to re-encapsulate the individual but if we can just give them Grace and space meet them where they’re at hold space c value in here that eventually the environment allows them enables them to make a decision for themselves and which is powerful right hey guys in back into a way that might they are behind and did their decision because a lot of times what what humans do and a lot of the pie like we react to beers you know and so when I do when a clan is like hey like I think I’m supposed to get an apartment and I go you know what that idea they knock it right that’s my fear and that’s me exemplating fake is simplify my fear Under The Clash of oh and not meeting the client worth so if I can get on board and be like okay let’s find a way to make that site and then we keep going then all of a sudden they’re like you know what that unless the religion sounds great for like 30 to 60 days yep it’s like cool because that’s always designed to beat like let’s go let’s get stable yeah let’s like uh job search let’s get integrated back into the community with the support system that you can go home to at night because by going from a residential back into the community there’s going to be things that come up whether a guy cuts you off going down the street or you have a bad phone call when significant other orphans uh and going down to a solo Target might not be the best thing but you know what even for three weeks going back to a community summer living yeah being able to be like hey guys I had a rough day today work through that coming to our IOP continue to build um community and gain support in three weeks and you’re ready for that ornament we’re going to help her search for it just like we were when you’ve been residents yeah and back to we’re gonna we’re gonna make that happen and we’re going to do it this way Mel love that it’s it’s such a huge shift from what we’ve seen for so many years because it actually says to the conscious recovery book and the curriculum is that you have what it takes living inside of you to make these clear conscious um and intentional decisions which is something that is I mean for some viewers out there probably no they don’t how do you know people that’s so foreign because we go into Alcoholics Anonymous and again I got my start almost done but it’s like I’m an addict there’s something wrong with me and actually we like to highlight a picture there’s nothing wrong with you something happened and we can get back to that whole Center of what we consider to be wholeness and fullness right and allowing people to get to that point on their own then to your point it can be something that doesn’t feel so arduously one day at a time it could be my process yeah you know I mean silver living isn’t forever and sure you know we need to acknowledge you know and so like there is this beautiful uh balancing that Kane had because when we when we come into the treatment center a large arm is very light back in there it was like shut up and listen and shall be listening to me that’s hitting on my trauma and that makes it shunt out there you know instead of focusing on that and having the staff sit down because it wasn’t and uh and reason and and relate then we can start building those bonds and then we can start making decisions and building a road map one to get to where success means for peach individual pot yeah you know yeah and it’s cool today to know that success is looks a variety of different ways you know I’m sitting with people in group today you know at Peaks we in my opinion we’re the greatest mental health providers here in Colorado it was sitting in a group of half the people in there have never coped with a substance but I always like to highlight to people it’s not about that it’s about everybody copes and everybody copes differently and it’s about finding people or finding coping mechanisms for people that really fit their true genuine authentic self and there’s things in your recovery that AAA didn’t teach you that you came up with on your own that fits you like a glove and I think it’s really important and efficacious to at least allow people as we sit on the front end to see themselves inside their recovery to really be within that not see themselves in mind or see themselves in yours and that’s a lot of what it is too I think for a lot of years it’s like we have a lot of the fear from 1935 and we’re bringing that fear into 2023 and us to say that like some of that doesn’t marry a bit but it’s we have far more resources and our ability to walk people into community-based opportunities is far more than we did in 1935 and I think leaving that fear at the door so the client doesn’t pick it up and continue to stay in that is so important so important 1935 they did have some of the part two yeah more than one or getting the community together and doing something and I get behind that 100 all that oh and the event is something that and you can look different though it doesn’t have to look like a meet your five o’clock meeting or your new news and this can look like a couple of guys getting together football okay a little bit like a couple guys don’t do the range yep um and something that we were just talking a minute ago they spoke to me um and I love working you just thought we’re gonna do it anyway um so you’re talking about like believing in those elves and like would come for me is Ted blessed and I’ve been watching this instead of that show and it’s making but on top of the office door says wait it’s just made out of and that’s what it’s about you know like whether you’re Mental Health primary substance dual diagnosis it’s all about bully it’s all about Mind Body Soul oh and it’s all it’s all the same drinking it truly is it’s it’s about uh bleeding and how do we make your dreams hip juice because we all got it they might just looked it yeah and that’s cool yeah and we’ve been the world’s weird man and it’s hard yeah and we’ve been beat up and you know I I looked at my Challenge and I had a pretty good childhood and it’s still hard I thought that still remember being hard AKB boat yeah he had a mic and it just it’s been not not taught that way and you know like yeah have a good life and like it’s about to be good and it’s just it’s it can be hard too still and so that’s what we really like walking through clients like them understanding that like this is hard but you don’t have to do it all yeah and you’re not good yeah and actually we’re gonna have we’re gonna jump because exactly but yeah I love the fun part too is keeps people around for sure you know and it’s it’s one of those things I think for a lot of times especially when I got into 22 years old I was like this is a life sentence of mediocrity and no fun zero book and it’s just like you know zero yeah and I love that too because your point is very clear I mean most of the families that come to Peaks are great families great phenomenal families Angel is one of the biggest lies I’ve ever folded right because because the needs and this isn’t a show this is just a generational thing is that needs don’t get mad in great families and they’re still creep families still great but the book continues to evolve and I think it’s worth a read in 2023 and I love the fact that you and your alumni team the outpatient team the inpatient team the admissions Team all points in between are really willing to read the new book ciao Jack stay in like you said to have a little biggest ones that I told myself yeah it was like walking into this is when is this gonna be yeah a lot of stuff that I don’t want to do and it’s been the exact opposite yeah when people that I never thought I got to do like actually having friends yeah um not acquaintances but people that I can rely on making rely on me and we have a great time doing that you know I’ll I mean like a lie there was a fun times there while using Church substances they’ve been great well they’re all in really dark towns yeah oh this is sustainable guitar simply just before was it you know oh you know we were talking before of like what does the alumni like what do we try to provide in to enjoyment and having this new light so the way I kind of the viewer is when we go to residential it’s it’s learned and it’s where we’re learning some things we’re starting to like you know my biggest thing when I was swimming through was like well we’re biologists I had never had that one you know or like I think like towards the end of the intro you stop trying them out a little bit you know a little bit but the IOP is like implementation there of like we’re going to do this we’re going to try it it might not work but I guess what if it does it as somebody bounce that off yep and so our IOP is implementation like we’re taking these tools we’re working on them we’re having a safe place to process the outbound and like we’re trying this out and like trying trying to go precise and then and then they go through work or almost three months IOP just start the the rate for the they’re ready to like get going and so when they come into our Alum and they are they aren’t dropped off whatsoever you know like we we constantly reach out to all um we provide uh events that are review unique uh one of the one of the events that I really enjoy is we go to this really cool bookstore for our monthly meeting and it’s not immediate it’s a check-in hang out we did a puzzle the other day you know cool and then we go out into the community and some of the Mets do they we’re gonna go play bocce ball and beating G’s at a park across the street from bad bad bookstore you know and it’s it gets us it gets people don’t want anything excited about what we’re doing because yes like you said life is hard and we we go back into this and we still have jobs and we still have families and we still have all these other things and sometimes we forget about ourselves and especially in the in their homes and so peace isn’t going to forget about you and you shouldn’t forbid yeah yeah I love that at absolutely in my opinion just a breath of fresh air as far as approaches go um something I was thinking about when you were talking um I don’t know if you’re in my group you’re my group last week sure yeah and I think there was a young man in there and his family you know because the the energy behind the field that we’re in is very driven from an archaic view in 1935 it’s very driven it’s driven by a million forms of fear discouragement and and one of the things that they do in those processes that these programs do I think there’s what 13 000 treatment providers something like that 12 500 and I would imagine uh 12 950 of them are 12-step based and so in a lot of these a lot of these cultures and again there’s nothing ultimately wrong with that it’s still good but a lot of in these cultures what happens is we come in and we brainwash the families to believe this is a non-negotiable abstinence-based perspective and anything veering off the past is unacceptable and lacks success and so then we have these young individuals sitting in front of us that have been to these long-term programs that are very punitive top-down view behavior modification yes behavior modification and I’m sitting with the young man trying to teach him about his compassion and he can’t hear it who have you ran into a lot of that when you’re trying to integrate people into this you know again sometimes 12 steps fits but you’re trying to get them a fresh lens to see through and some of the folks that have been through kind of the riddle world of treatment and specifically their families in my opinion been traumatized in a direction and not be able to have any Clarity into the process so when yes Amy comes from that Ellen might kind of separate this a little bit because we you don’t do things the client and there’s the fan and there’s gonna be two different approaches and you’re white like so when you were just talking I’m thinking you know as a people as a society we’re always changing always evolving the drug scene has evolved life and drugs from back in 20 years now where I was them like were way different than they are today and they’re about why are we still approaching this with something that this is 50 years old when like everything else is changing involving but worry continue to to do this like we should also do that and so when a kid and well to give with a client that’s been to six eight and treatment centers and oh and it might have been that way get over the archaic way or they might have had like a little dabble of this type and a little bit under this type then like then they’re walking the hours in it it might be a little uncomfortable for a breath because all of a sudden you know there’s staff members that are out like hey you having to do it today am I like hey how you doing today like right actually Pinterest is like yo bro how’s it going yeah um and from day one from in our detox when you were surrounded in a raptor rail with with love and intention and my connection it’s weird and then it could be alive it can and like people can be like whoa drink Addison what are you talking about like give me the big book and when does you know it was step past yeah um and to explain it and they’re like that’s it but your your individual session starts in like two out yeah and then after that like I’m gonna come to coffee talk with you yeah and we’re gonna process like any kind of a feelings or emotions that come up in your individual and then tonight we’re gonna go and we’re gonna need together as as a group and you know oh and that’s just an American Residential and then as you keep going clients if you hear it time and time again like first it’s weird and then it’s great and then they’re like all bought in and here are Pines that are sick I had jobs and different states and they’re like you know what I’m coming yeah doing sober living just for a little bit and the job like I hope they train for me right and if not like that I’m okay Within Myself and I I I’m coming into alignment that I I know that I can make something happen yeah you know because of choosing them at first and that’s the important part and that’s so yeah when when the spring of the archaic modalities of like how do we treat substance in mental health like we’re far from that my because you gotta choose you first yeah and then we work you know it’s not like but into this box and then all your problems in a different way but if they have known do it again because you didn’t do something about it no yeah it’s doing it right yeah let’s just gotta like we just kind of help you figure out like how do you do it and what you want yeah it’s so interesting I appreciate you saying that they really well spoken on that it almost fits like you know that model and again I found my recovery through alcoholics not six years I’m very indebted and grateful for those people but it really does fit the traumatized individual uh may show up you you you you’re like I know me yeah
you guys can’t and it’s very very it fights it tends to fight Shameless shame that a little bit and it I think for a multitude of reason it can exacerbate Shane unless you feel really comfortable in that environment and luckily um in my situation was a little bit different I had I was absent of family support and so when your app set of family support sometimes you can go into these rooms full of strangers just the same as The Rock Climbing gym but in Alcoholics Anonymous and these people really show you what love and connection is about and that was really satiating for me but there’s a lot of people that come from a lot of different mocks of life where it would be square paid round hole and I think that continues to exacerbate the Trello for sure things are like when that happens like we had a phenopark and as she’s coming into IOP I mean I’m meeting with her and she’s like nah like I don’t want to go to that that’s only cool what are you my prediction like I want to do yoga guess what and then there’s a spot yeah and it’s gonna be the community that I loved about it right but it’s going to be the community that you and that’s and like there’s people that are saying mind goal oriented that you are on yoga yeah and we’re gonna fight and and those are going to be your people and guess what that’s going to be your pro recovery program meeting yeah that you’re going to do hey we’re gonna have to we’re gonna have some some therapies of that we’re going to add some um coming into the IOP and getting uh your group there would be your processing you’re hanging out time uh in and then we’re going to look at whatever else you want yeah and we’re gonna try to make that happen we’re gonna try to make it happen and say what and then oh but yeah so today’s model doesn’t have to look the 99th here what it can look like is Brock and Jim
yeah oh which is really an over art the overarching theme on this is safety it’s like I think parents sometimes they’re not here well that’s scary or no the overarching theme is safety we want to get you where you feel safe so people don’t feel safe in those environments no and I think we need to take note of that in the years and I’m as guilty of this as just any professional you know five years ago be like which Step did you work which one did you not work how did you not hit your knees what did you not do very punitive approach and I would just watch people lack the ability to settle in my presence myself included you know now we get to walk with people and like right on man I can totally see why you came up with that he’s like cool with it you just want him to settle yeah you bring your fighting brings you back to a part of my like my story of um I remember walking through uh think about time it Peaks going to the grocery store the first sight and like later with having breakdowns and anxiety and then now it’s one of my safest place to hopefully Saturday morning so that’s called essential
oh it is it’s like okay like it’s not like that the environment might not be safe for that client and and that’s okay like let’s find something for that client yeah it’s not called um well and I thought I would come up right or we know what okay um do this this and this and it’ll make up time for that and like um I just I just it I can’t agree with yeah you know seriously in me in my experiences no it’s about safe yeah and it’s about ritual yeah and like there’s so much in time I’ve been into that all often you know oh when we walk in here there’s a lot of times there’s still being dogged that we don’t feel safe with thunderstorms and that’s where we have to start yeah you know building that person up and then I find it really hard to do that within um a model from 1935 CS 100 now I appreciate that I appreciate you coming on the show and articulating a lot of stuff we have a lot of really cool alumni things coming up Matt’s heading up we’re doing a recovery concert the middle of August um with KK Fearless we’re going to be bringing them on the show here in a couple weeks so I’ll give too much of that away but what are you most excited about as we wrap up the show what are you most excited about with where you’re at in their current position at Peaks and where we’re headed they think so we’re making from the very beginning really stated like it is almost a blank display and and I’m encouraged not to do the easy route and um uh that’s what I think I’m gonna come excited about is to build something that is so unique in so inclusive to our alumni has a whole uh yeah that’s it and it’s before we even got on there is the most exciting part is having these events and seeing it um quiet so it a year and eight months yeah how many about two years and but also in the same sitting right next to him as somebody to celebrate the banks yeah all in accomplish up yeah you know planted two days and then uh I that’s that’s exciting I’m also excited you know be um attached to some other non-profit organizations and be able to bring that into it oh
in showing clients you know the fun factor that we were like we were talking about earlier about like oh man this is gonna be oh this is oh man going to a Rockies game yeah go to a Nuggets game um going to the the evm concert this weekend um and being able to share that with with our with our alumni and our clients in a safe Manner and be like yo like let’s go come with squirrel yeah and
no that’s Texas electric IHOP and then drive myself and I’ll see you the next day he and I’ll leave yeah well that’s exciting for me because for when I was walking through this um it was the mediocracy that I was scared of that um and it was the structure of 1990 that I did want to do and so with Peaks and what we do and how uh individual and open that we are in building that it just it’s amazing to watch each kind walk through and walk their Journey alongside them because I get to do a bunch of different Journeys and like Jerry sometimes way different approach yeah and like when we just climb on the map into that you get to see a bunch of three points yeah so it’s cool yeah um and also like I said like um building this thing from scratch um making it really intentional built towards the client so one thing that we’re looking at doing too is all the classic on through um a fun survey that we do but it’s so inquisitive about what they want and like what they want out of this um and where they’re wanting to go you know and like and how do we and make that happen for us you know oh because it’s not one just one little size that’s all right yeah and so that’s that’s what yeah that’s really cool man it’s exciting for me too because we’re really in the last few years just on the precipice of this you know just on the edge and we’re moving into it we get the facility um the new men’s facility will be built 13 000 square foot state of the art facility on the ranch which is really really unique environment the only commercial space in Colorado Springs with residential homes in the back and a commercial property up front that gets done at the end of July the women’s program is expanding by a few beds more offices and so just a lot of great things to come as I really feel like we’re just scratching the surface so that people are potentially going to be able to help through this model and this culture so and in that our iobs grow huge yeah I absolutely love it and our reach in our community footprint is so much bigger today you know it’s a testament to you know the entire Peak scene but specifically the outpatient team and the crew that you guys need to work with both up in Denver and in Colorado Springs it’s an amazing group of people that I get to interface with a couple times a month and really really look forward to it so thanks again for coming on the show Bud as always it’s an amazing pleasure just to have your wisdom and insight and really just a progressive way to look at things um in your recovery it’s always just a breath of fresh air so thanks for coming on
all right so my viewers please check us out this Sunday 6 p.m um until next time you can find us on your podcast Instagram tick tock tick tocks are gonna be coming out I’ve been putting them out a little bit they’re saving them up he’s saving a lot but please check us out all of your uh your social media devices until next time peace

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Episode 102Emotional Transformation Therapy with Coastwise CounselingWatch Nowhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyxPddYVAc0Listen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Jason Friesema brings Chris Burns on to welcome our special guest, Steve Taus, with Coastwise Counseling Center. Steve brings the concept of Emotional Transformative Therapy to the show, explaining the modality’s uses, benefits, and successes and opening a deeper discussion into plant-based medicine in treatment. This episode is packed with information and energy as our team shares thoughts and open discussions with Steve Taus. To find more information on Steve and Coastwise Counseling, check out coastwisecounselingcenter.com

Talking Points1. Introduction to Coastwise Counseling 2. What is Emotional Transformation Therapy 3. The use of light in treatment 4. The four approaches to light and color treatment 5. Ketamine assisted therapy 6. Plant-based medicine 7. Final thoughts Quotes

“Nature wants to do that. It wants to be harmonious, it wants to prepare, and it wants to make things better. Our brain is the same way. Once the brain understands a better way to do something, it will always want to do it that way. That’s just the nature of things.” – Steve Taus, Coastwise Counseling

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -102- Transcriptsfinding Peaks uh I’m Jason friezma Chief clinical officer of Peaks recovery joined today with by my co-host Chris Burns president and founder of Peaks recovery we are really excited uh to have um Steve and I suddenly forgot your last name Steve I apologize uh Steve Taos Steve Taos of Coast wise Counseling in San uh Pedro Los Angeles area of California uh welcome uh Steve you and I had a chance to talk I don’t know a month or two ago and we I thought we had a great conversation and um I what I think I’d like for you to do first to maybe kind of introduce Coast wise counseling and kind of talk about some of the uh newer approaches that you’re using to kind of help people out I think starting with on the emotional transformative therapy I think uh honestly I’ve been in this field a long time and uh you got to explain the therapy modality that that I wasn’t super familiar with so I’d love to have kind of a similar conversation so yeah take it away thank you um Jason Chris thanks for having me it’s a real treat and Delight to team up with um people of your caliber and and with your with your business and Company and the offerings that you guys are doing for folks in Colorado um and as both of you just said I’m from San Pedro California I’m a licensed marriage family therapist by trade uh since 2008 and I have a I have a business called coastwise therapy and coastwise recovery so one half of the business provides General mental health anxiety depression marriage issues the the usual kind of gamma mental health and then we also have an outpatient drug and alcohol program focusing on on developing sobriety so we have two things that we’re doing I’m passionate about both and I’m passionate to be kind of sharing with both of you who who do the same thing in Colorado um and that’s that’s a little bit about me and then just to kind of return back to if you’d like I can start talking about emotional transformation therapy as one of the treatments that I offer clients but before we even get into that what what brought you into the counseling field I usually like to ask mental health professionals that question actually so yeah what brought you into this field that’s a great question you know um My First Love was basketball and I thought I was going to play for the Los Angeles Lakers and then I I learned that I was not good enough to play for the Lakers and I was gonna have to have to choose something else and so I I I was always good at talking to people and there was a time in my life where I was the uh the class clown I wasn’t doing very good in school and I was getting most of my attention negatively through um disrupting teachers lessons plans and and joking uh and then somewhere along the way there was an elective yeah which essentially was a group therapy elective which I didn’t know that’s what it was conducted by a therapist and then that that therapist thought that I was intuitive and insightful and called my dad and told him that and my dad thought I was he was getting a phone call for another detention or you know more disruptive behavior and it was a compliment that I really needed I was I I was kind of down on myself and this adult person saw something intelligent in me and it uh it seared into my into my body and my spirit is something that I could do and then I went on to college eventually and didn’t know what to major in and chose psychology thinking well there’s a psychology to everything so I’ll just start here and I want to being a right fit um and then later on doing my own therapy and having my therapist affirm to me that this is something that I would be good at and then choosing to go to graduate school and pursue pursue this career also yeah but I I do like to say counselors good counselors are usually born not made I mean we do have to learn skills and that sort of thing but it does seem to be the good ones that’s kind of an innate capacity I agree I’m don’t ask me to do your taxes or change your oil to me either one thing I know how to do I can do this I actually wanted to be a uh the point guard for the University of Arizona I grew up in Tucson Arizona going with my older brother and my grandmother to basketball games you know all I wanted to be was Damon stottmeyer I mean everything and it fit me perfect because I’m about five foot nine on a good day and uh I too had to Grapple with a little bit of that identity and purpose when that wasn’t wasn’t the case well I was going to be a shooting guard for the Nuggets if I’m glad uh we’ve got this all worked out yeah we can we can we we can leave our our level of basketball and our childhood dreams into our podcast exactly yeah I like it all right so anyway Steve tell us about uh emotional transformative therapy and how did you come across it and yeah we’ll give it a description of it so I came across this years ago again I mentioned I was in my own therapy my therapist at the time had discovered this and said Steve this is the uh this is the thing you’re really gonna have to learn this this is do I want you to trust me I want you to say yes and I want you to you know consider getting some continue education in this so I said okay I’ll I will um I will learn so that I learned by dumb luck by just you know having the therapist that I had at the time so so I went on there’s five levels uh of training for emotional transformation therapy and essentially what it does is it is the following right so it’s a it’s an attachment based therapy right so it attends to remembering that who’s sitting across from you has an attachment style maybe it’s secure maybe it’s avoidant maybe it’s resistant ambivalent or disorganized or any of these right and learning how to kind of remember to connect with them and to to attune to that give them a good attachment experience with you as a therapist and I found that to be just stylistically uh very much in my own Styles I really want to have a real relationship with the person sitting across with from me and this this therapy reminds me and forces me to like attune to that and then and then coupling the the attachment style of the person with these visual tools right so emotional transformation therapy is about using color and light visual stimulus for precise brain stimulation so there the the person is going to get the healing quality of both white and color to attach and create its own their own relationship to that with what they’re working through so what what I would kind of liken this too is um like getting to like having a piano tuner tuning the piano to just the right sound right everybody has their own kind of frequency and they vibrate in a different way depending on kind of what they’re going through you know whether they’re grieving the loss of their grandmother or their you know at the beach looking out looking out the ocean that they’re gonna they’re gonna feel a certain way and the color and light can help um induce or stimulate healing uh outcomes so so um I’ll speak a little about each right so so light is very well documented you know there’s lots of who who’ve talked about you know having seen the light or uh the white light of a near-death experience or a light bulb popped off on their in their head and they had an aha moment or um or people in Alaska who don’t see the Sun for several you know days throughout the year sitting under under lamps or that there is a very real light um healing property that happens okay that one would serve discover and so the lead Pioneer is a man named Stephen Vasquez out of Dallas Texas really brilliant mind discovered that that color has the same thing so all the color in the visual Spectrum from you know red to violet indigo Etc uh has its own energetic vibration right it’s not just kind of uh we will kind of vent a speech step but real science and that you’re taking this kind of energetic vibration of this color and all the color also is shown to be specifically good for certain cognitive emotional spiritual and physical states of being so I can I can listen to someone talk about a particular problem and select a color that will help augment or accelerate how fast somebody can begin to work through a particular problem and why that why that is is is is we’re tapping into the parasympathetic nervous system where something that excites me in like the this next chapter of mental health Psychiatry healing is how do you how do we as professionals as healers induce that how do we get somebody into their parasympic nervousness and if you’re a listener or layperson doesn’t know about that this is where healing occurs so it’s the million dollar question that not every therapist and doctors answers how do you how do you get somebody in the repair Superbike nervousness well it’s very very hard to deal with regular talk therapy you know it’s very hard to do yeah but the color and light in conjunction with you know attuning to attachment will help a person settle and drop into the repair sympathetic nervous system and they’ll be able to cut through problems in an accelerated rate they’ll they’ll have emotional breakthroughs they’ll have cognitive Clarity they’ll even have physical relief in their body something that I didn’t think I was going to be able to get as a mental health therapist see somebody get physical benefit from the emotional work that we’re doing um there’s four primary tools I don’t know if I’m talking too much I can stop here or if I what would you like yeah let’s go through the tools and then I just want Chris to kind of React to what what we’re hearing here is this he’s hearing it for the first time I’m sure okay run on um and and forgive me if it’s a little bit out of order I’m just excited to share about a therapy that didn’t work so there’s four primary tools and I’ll share the the about two of them most specifically uh one tool is called the color spectral Char and it’s basically just a poster you can imagine looking at um with as every that has every color on it sort of looks like a psychedelic poster a college kid’s dorm room has every color in it the second tool is a machine it’s called the chroma pulse two and it emits color and light so this is a very Dynamic tool because you can use both whereas the first tool I just mentioned is only color and then the third Tool uh they’re called the color dowels so they’re like these little small sticks and each one has its own color red blue green Etc and and those are used for specific kind of peripheral eye stimulation I might liken that to what maybe an EMDR therapist does and you’re targeting uh the brain with with the brain very specifically with these different eye movements and so is the the color uh chart and so uh the light machine I didn’t afford there’s something called the uh blackout goggles and these are literally blackout goggles that have just two little small pupils in them and you can turn them into specific positions so that you can very precisely aim where a light enters the eye that corresponds to certain parts of the brain that stimulates certain responses in a person okay so um why that’s interesting the the visual stimulation and aiming that directly into the brain is they used to say like a person might say look my identity is a depressed person I’m just that’s just how I am um that’s not necessarily true what what’s true is that there’s a part of the brain that’s managing the depressed problem and it’s not very good at that and this therapy will serve to locate and find that area of the brain and the other part of the brain that badges it better and moving that information or that area that governs that to a part that knows how to do it better and how it’s done is with the color and Light I wouldn’t be able to do that otherwise so so I’ll speak about the color chart a bit and then I will shoot and then I’ll talk a little bit about the light machine because those are the two most exciting so this color chart did you want to say something yeah I it yeah what you describe those two and then yeah we’ll just have a quick conversation about it sure so the color chart is a great diagnostic tool when I begin with a client an early treatment I like to have them um talk about their primary issue and look at each of these colors one by one discovering which which one of these colors is easy for them to look at which color is difficult to look at so what happens is there will be some colors that they can look at straight on and there’ll be no visual Distortion that’s very important is you want to find that where where they distort the color so what I mean by that is they might be looking at Green and then on the chart their eyes expanded it looks like the whole chart’s green or it looks like the yellow is kind of darting into it or it’s shrinking or they see something in that what would that visual Distortion is letting me know is that they’re not oriented right so where this is really a gift in my work is people dissociate and they used to think that only really highly traumatized people like a combat that are in dissociate it’s not true you know regular old people just like you and I get emotionally overloaded and we dissociate but in therapy that Association can be very slight and very subtle and not detectable to the person and not to talk to Bull to the therapists and and what would that color Distortion is identifying is a form of dissociation with a specific color that corresponds to a certain type of cognitive or emotional or spiritual State and so what it’s doing is it’s it’s it’s simplifying for me precisely where the area of treatment needs to become targeted uh I can say people time and I can Orient them quicker and move them through problems faster just by just by employing the use of color so that that that that particular tool is a favor because it’s it it will precisely aim therapy yeah and Orient and and let me know precisely when they’re when they’re dissociated and not fully present for the issue the second tool is the color and light machines you can imagine sitting in a dark in an actual machine that emits color and I can I can blend those colors so I can take red and green and blue and and blend them so that they match the emotional experience that the client is having in the moment how they’re attaching how they’re relating in the moment with the color with the issue that they’re working on and what’s what’s cool about that is this this becomes very physical what I’ve found is people’s stuff is in their body and it’s hard to get it all that stuff that’s in their body and as they’re looking at the color and the line they’ll tell you like you know my shoulders are really crunching up and it doesn’t feel very good and now I’ll start to adjust the color and this would be a blue issue by the way I would start blending blue or removing the blue until they say it’s better or it’s worse and then I’ll ask let me know when it’s better or it’s worse well it’s better they’ll go it’s better but now it’s in my ear now now it’s kind of like the feeling is in my ear and I and I change the color again and what what that it sort of becomes like a cat and mouse or I’m chasing this little physical symptom out of their body and while they’re having these emotional experience while they’re having different memory that makes the therapy very Dynamic yeah Chris I’d love to hear what you hear and all about yeah I mean this has just got my wheels turned and that’s the first time I’ve heard of it and a great explanation so thank you very much you know I’ve spent the last three years personally on a personal journey in uh SE therapy and when you’re talking you know being able to move people much quicker I found myself even as someone in long-term recovery really struggling to find the somatic areas in my body and to attune to those because my brain for so many years it kept me so safe and so with this light therapy it appears to be such a dynamic way to your point to get people to settle and to get into that parasympathetic nervous system it took me 11 years into recovery and I had to go to The Meadows Behavioral Health thing in the my parasympathetic nervous system for the first time and I’ve been working at it ever since but I think uh maybe to your point a little bit there’s a lot of things in our world and in life that pull away from the opportunity to get into that system there’s a lot of barriers to that mainly I gotta go back to work and this seems like a really really cool modality that can help people get grounded and settled and safe much quicker than even something like an sc therapy that’s in the body but most certainly as you said the talk therapy what are you finding for people when they come in as far as getting into the body does that happen pretty quickly after that first session or does that um does that take a little bit of time a little bit more Rapport building because my experience with other modalities absent of talk therapy it takes a bit of work to really get into that and a lot of time and after
yeah that’s a great question Chris you know I think I meet people who are more open I meet people who are more naturally sensitive and and the color and light will have immediate um impact on them and they’ll they’ll they’ll they’ll be able to report things in their body and then they’re sure like you’re describing I mean maybe it’s part of your journey that are that are less that way they’re they’re less connected or they’re just you know my opinion they’re just kind of more uh bulkier type you know that takes them a little longer to connect to what’s actually happening in their body and it’s not like me though I’ll I’ll I might have somebody who is describing something that’s clearly pretty hard-hitting and they’re they’re pretty non-reactive and so so so from that perspective I I know like they’re really disconnected they’re they’re pretty well disconnected from it because they’re talking about something so hard hitting without without much
um change in their in their body and so it’s both right you can take it can take a while it can take a while but a lot of times I find that results come more quickly it’s pretty it’s pretty um it’s very safe obviously unless you have a seat or issue and it’ll help Inspire connection to the body and spirit you know I love how you um stay out of it sounds like it correct me if I’m wrong but with the modality you tend to stay out of the bulky parts of the story if you will a kind of a lot like SC is is we get into the body and we explore the body things come up but as a practitioner I’m sure on the client level it’s quite nice to be able to move through something where I’m not retelling all of my shame and pain in every single session we can really get into what matters in that body and that that mind-body connection well what does happen to your point is because it’s so easily or quickly gets people into that healing part of their physiology
it’s kind of like we’re in we’ll talk about this later with psychedelics but like basically what’s achieving is it’s slowing down the amygdala it’s causing that kind of fear Center that gets caught up in those you know bulky details um and softens that so they can begin to use their other parts of their you know emotional range or their spiritual range or their intelligence to start kind of unhooking solving healing these kind of difficult things without it being like too much time in the bulk of all the content yeah I think I I I love that about ett and I think somatic experiencing has similar qualities and um I I like that our field is learning that like we don’t have to rehash every detail of a trauma to have for people to find Healing um because that almost creates an exposure type environment and I think EMDR actually can be pretty uh intense and kind of exposed people to a lot of things that that uh where they struggle to stay in that parasympathetic nervous system so um I really appreciate uh your your pretty thorough description of it um and so let’s transition uh first to ketamine assisted therapy uh which is again kind of a a newer approach um we’re finding uh I think we’re finally starting to find our group here at Peaks where we’re getting some efficacy with the ketamine assisted therapy uh particularly with uh treatment refractory uh depression uh people who in even um High degree of uh uh suicidal ideation that doesn’t seem to move much with uh other medic medications and uh Psychotherapy um and the use of kind of a six series uh set of ketamine uh infusions is what we’re using here uh does seem to kind of help people be able to dissociate and maybe detach from some of those uh negative cognitions that they tend to be stuck in I’m curious kind of how you Steve are using ketamine assistive therapy and and what what tree to this modality yeah oh man you guys are so cool I I am I am I’m impressed I’m so stoked that you that you guys are thinking this way and and implementing this into your uh services for people like like I’ll just I’ll move into it just a moment but like this next this next chapter of mental health and Psychiatry and well-being I think it really I think it really is you know color and light it’s it’s neural feedback it’s um you know I think a lot of like we’re watching bezel Vander Colt’s work around getting people back into movement and their body you know um and and it’s psychedelics yeah right the these these these modalities and therapies are effective and they’re intelligent and ketamine assisted Psychotherapy is one of them so what what I uh what I can say about it is
probably my personal experience and burning in my professional experience my personal experiences maybe 10 years ago I I had my first intentional ceremonial psychedelic Journey um I didn’t fully understand what I was signing up but people who took me there I had a transformational experience um and it caused for me to become very interested in these plant medicine synthetics and and the Firepower they were rolling out and how fast they were rolling out that kind of Firepower and how fast fuel could heal and really change so I when ketamine became known to me as a therapist as like a you know above board treatment I went and got trained I trained with Phil Wolfson and San Francisco at the ketamine training center and then I’ve since implemented into my work and I I I I work mostly with intramuscular injection and sublingual lozenges there’s different routes of administration as you know you know these are the two that that I use and um what would I what I what I really like about ketamine specifically we can talk about many psychedelics but we’re talking about Academy now is ketamine is is a safe medicine it is long used it’s it’s very well known in the hospital it doesn’t disturb uh respiration there are very few things that would that would disqualify a person medically from from use I mean you would want to use this what people love you know um psychiatric problems like thought disorders sure that’s a very very very safe medicine and what I really like about it is it’s a medicine that I believe is going to be a bridge and Gateway to other healing psychedelics right so ketamine is is a classified and it’s an nmda antagonist and they think it moves in the glutamate receptor area neurotransmitter side of the brain not significant because then that means it doesn’t doesn’t get into SSRI World Series yeah like this means like a person who’s really depressed or really anxious or really traumatized these people are are probably on psychotropic medication that’s going to immediately disqualify them from other psychedelics like mushrooms like MDMA like many of them Ayahuasca they’re not going to be able to do them but they can do Kennedy right oh that’s cool yes it’s it’s a different neural transmitter exactly different system yeah right and it’s in it it only lasts an hour and and and it gives people the break of normal mind like the the thing that’s so cool about is you know like I think how I think I feel how I feel I understand the world how I understand the world my brain is programmed the way my brightness program my default network is what it is and it’s very hard to to have a break from that or adjust that and ketamine will allow that to happen it’s also a dissociative anesthetic right so it causes that break of normal mind and introduces a psychedelic experience with new access to new thinking new emotional experiences new new spiritual experiences and and people come back feeling better as you know has a very robust very robust antidepressant quality so someone’s really depressed or suicidal it’ll it’ll probably really relieve a lot of that most the time and then it’s indicates a lot of things I’ve seen people you know work through a lot of substance use issues I’ve seen people work through uh long-standing anxiety issues or traumas um it’s good for spiritual growth it’s really it’s really a wonderful medicine and I’m glad that it’s becoming more readily available I do think it needs to be done with professional hands curated and intelligently I think there’s a lot of things that can go wrong but these are some of my immediate thoughts about really admiration for the medicine yeah I think it’s I think it’s shown to be super powerful in in kind of preparing to talk to you I came across uh this concept um at least that I was reading about about um how we identify we build a lot of our identity basically on giving ourselves feedback where we are kind of looking in the past and kind of building out our identity and um some of the the ketamine assisted therapy documentation that I was looking at talked about uh ketamine allowing people to give themselves feed forward where they’re able to kind of project forward and build an identity uh looking forward rather than just only building it based upon things we have done in the past and I found that to be fairly intriguing I haven’t had any opportunity to do anything with that uh feedback and I don’t know how that strikes you Steve but that that concept was brand new to me um as of yesterday
yeah yeah I mean I think what I could say that’s kind of relates to that is my own personal experience of the medicine I think if you’re going to be sharing it and offering it or teaching it or you know giving it to to clients that you you have the experience of the medicine yourself and my experience with the medicine it has a it’s good for my existence I find that like it helps remind me about all of existence and my place in it and and and how to be in the world right like I kind of kind of remember things or are shown things about yeah how to live right so to me that feels like kind of feed forward where I kind of come out of these and I’m I’m in touch with some form of love or some form of like wisdom about how to conduct myself internally and externally in relationship myself and my world that that just feels healthier um and smarter than you know an hour before when I before I went in into the journey and that’s what I’ve seen with clients I find a lot of clients come out and they have those types of feed forward experiences I mean sometimes that they come out and there’s lots of turmoil um which is why you want a good therapist or a doctor who’s helping them make sense of all that but generally speaking I think feed forward is a great uh way of talking about you know what what it what it can do for people yeah yeah I I really appreciate you checking in with that and I had no idea that um folks that were on ssris were a candidate for ketamine I mean that just warms my heart um I come from a very uh in Prescott Arizona I’m sure you see a lot of it in Southern California Lord knows they have quite a few treatment providers out there that are 12-step based what are you doing for individuals who are coming to you that maybe have had um trauma resilient we’ll call it some people call it a treatment resistant Tendencies and they just haven’t you know they’ve been to five to ten treatments and they’ve been fed you know the book from 1935 which has a lot of great Tools in it but it really butts up against some of these opportunities that we have uh to satiate the nervous system to seep forward to be objective with our experience potentially the emotions that are associated with it how do you chop through the shame that’s going to come up because I can remember signing up for I’m going to Costa Rica for my first Ayahuasca retreat in February of next year and I remember going into my therapist and this was months ago I said Paulie I got a little bit of Shame here and I said I’m doing this Ayahuasca thing and I you know I’m not a 12-stepper anymore I’m a mountaineer I take people outside but she goes Chris stop it I’m doing my ketamine assisted therapy next week I said all right and that was what it took for me to walk through that but talking about somebody new to recovery how do you walk through that with them yeah yeah now that that now I’m now I’m so glad that you brought that up and it’s for listeners I hope that this becomes like one of the more interesting parts of our conversation is um you know not all the shoes fit right you gotta it’s a case-by-case basis you got to decide if this is a the the right right shoe and this could be a right way of healing but you know first and foremost I I I love the 12 Steps it’s been a long time in a 12-step program myself I could probably still recite like many of the popular passages of that book sponsored and sponsored people like I I know this philosophy very well and I have a great admiration for it um and it and it and it’s
you know it’s something that to really think about I think you know I I have some some colleagues who have treatment centers here in California and their position is most people are going to relapse like like relapse is a very a very common part of the healing process for addiction and most people don’t get it right the first try and so his thought is let’s give him ketamine like maybe it will help induce the psychic change that Bill Wilson and Dr silk worth talk about and Alcoholics Anonymous uh maybe it won’t but it does have a very strong effect on reducing alcohol we’ve seen that in the science right so it’s it’s something to like really think about um and there’s like you know there’s different people in in AAA or like let’s say like uh the Pacific group have very strong opinions about um what medicines you can take and not take and um I don’t care what what I care about is if it works and I’ve seen reduction with with with you know substance use through ketamine and I’ve heard these wonderful stories I I met a man who who who was one of those very deeply entrenched mathematics who tried to do like a cop suicide you know to provoke the cops to shoot him he had one single ayahuasca ceremony never used meth ever again now I have a colleague of mine who spent many a year I’m addicted to heroin almost died of heroin um had ibogaine treatments in Mexico uh totally obliterated her opiate addiction and hasn’t used ever since um and so for for someone who’s new in recovery I’m not sure that I would immediately move to a psychedelic as a treatment option but I would certainly consider it and I would certainly use it if I thought I was appropriate um and then definitely with more established recovery I just work just work reselling with two different men who are long time a a old timers who had nagging depression and nagging anxiety and nagging issues that were obstructing more relational fulfillment and safely underwent ketamine treatment got a lot of good benefit and and did not um did not you know pick up
yeah I love that and it just it’s it’s really exciting to hear I mean Old-Timers and the like I think I remember um we had a mature adult in our program that was 74 years old and was one of our first candidates for ketamine and just the ability to move through issues and areas in which we’re they’re stuck and I just I wanted to ask that question because I believe when we can get the depth and weight of the honest truth behind some of these medications into those rooms in a formidable way in a connected way I think we begin to start to save a lot of lives that would have otherwise been lost and one of my status experiences as being a part of the 12-step program is I would come in as a young adult and you know Joe would be there with 15 years and then I’d come back the next day and he’d be gone and maybe if I’m lucky I get to see him again in three weeks and he’s lost everything and so I’m hopeful that now that these these new Progressive modalities and these opportunities to really just meet people where they’re at can speak to some of the old-timers and maybe create an opportunity for them to work on their mental health because let’s face it when when we started you know in 1935 we just wasn’t a lot of psychotherapy going on and there wasn’t a lot of talk of mental health and if there was uh you certainly weren’t hanging out in that AAA meeting so I just appreciate the breadth of fresh air on this modality and the way that you explain it and its intention um I think most people can probably see themselves in their recovery long term benefiting from something like that yeah I think also it’s just like you know my my my like deepest kind of you know regards for 12-step philosophy because you know people who really really do it it will save their life but I think one of the things that it has not done to your point is it doesn’t always relieve the the other types of pains the you know sadnesses or depressions or traumas and what I think as exciting as as an inter cross intersection between therapy and let’s say 12-step where psychedelics to be able to introduce something like MDMA or mushrooms to help overcome those those those issues so that people really have a good life and really have like a a more fulfilled experience and I think a lot of the other psychedelics remind and teach people over and over again that there’s such a bigger experience to be had um or that that far you know supersedes and outweighs you know getting drunk for example and their lives really get better you know that’s that’s really what I’m interested in and kind of why I’m healthfully jealous of you guys from Colorado right you guys can do more right now because like that’s what it’s about right I think you know you know you you’re offering in mind it’s truly about giving people a good life man like I I what I really want to say is I I want to live a good life I want everyone else to have a good life you have a certain amount of time on the ride before you die right so while you’re here it ought to be good and if it works then it works right and it’s like I always tell people if you’re going to work with me I’m gonna give you what I got I’m gonna give you everything I got to help you win it this thing I want you to have the life that you envision in your mind and and I will use as many of the tools as I can to to help you get there you know and and and implementing psychedelics is going to be is going to be so um it’s going to be so helpful with people you know especially when you’re combining that with like the care of a good doctor or a good therapist so you know nice all the rest you know environment and peers Etc so yeah I think it is the beautiful thing about being here in Colorado with this prop 122 that we passed and that you know hopefully within the next couple years we’ll be able to really uh expand what we are doing and move Beyond just the ketamine assisted therapy and really move into more of the plant-based medicine as well um and it just kind of in the in the brief time we have remaining I did kind of just want to talk about uh even the use of psilocybin and uh the more kind of research in in my own experience with psilocybin uh I I’ve been reminded I I was listening to a different podcast uh called Radio Lab and it’s actually a science podcast and um it was about uh how the so I’m about to go in a little tangent but I’m going to bring it around hopefully you can chat with me but it was about how uh forests are connected all the degrees in the forest communicate with one another and this is new stuff right like they started figuring out that trees were transferring nutrients to sick trees during the mycelium right through fungi through mushrooms um and it’s a tree would signal to other trees in the forest that like something unsafe is happening or a disease is coming or an infestation is coming or we’re running out of water over here and they can transfer nutrients or if a tree is beginning to actually perish it will dump its nutrients into the mycelium and mycelium will spread the nutrients out um through the other trees and then I start to think about the Psychedelic Journey on mushrooms and how parallel that is right there’s a there’s a contact with Humanity that I think can come through a psychedelic Journey with with psilocybin that does the exact same connections of you realize your place in the world and you realize your place in the forest of people if you will and and there’s an exchange going on and and uh that can be done through this uh psilocybin and I and that may be a little bit far out I don’t know if there’s a question in there Steve but no other saying I got all kinds of ideas and responses that I don’t throw one or two out there I’d love to hear what you have to say and I’d love to hear yes and Chris yeah yes emphatic yes to is the answer to that that that that that that that is that is that is the real that is that is nature and we we are nature right right it’s true right like I I I heard this saying that there was uh the example you used was a collection of trees that were near a water source uh and and they were aware that there was a tree that was uh some distance away like over one of our 50 yards or whatever that couldn’t access the water as well and the trees shuttled the water under the ground to the other tree right and that this is this is nature and I’ll you know relate it to humanity is in nature wants to do that right it wants to be harmonious it wants to repair it wants to make things better right and our brain is the same way that once the brain understands a better way to do something it will always want to do it that way it’s it’s just it’s just the nature of things and so mushrooms you know for me mushrooms you know the the nickname the teacher and that’s because they are they’re just very wise and and they’re they’re it’s our if you’re thinking from evolutionary perspective if there was nothing on the earth the first thing that would grow would be the mushrooms the fungus and so they’re they’re the oldest right and the wisest and and they will they they kind of help shuttle the the resource or help shuttle the the information right when they’re they’re helping the trees take that nutrient or water across to another tree it wants to do that and and we’re no different right so we’re just a change the word tree to human right like the the engagement the relationship between a human being and the mushroom is the same the mushroom will begin to
um relate and provide resource uh in the form of wisdom or you know emotional relief or creativity um because that’s its nature the mushrooms want to do that and uh in my experiences our brains want to upgrade they want to yield so yeah I think with intention is what I suggest is what I do when I ask what they’ll do is like be in relationship with the mushroom understand that it wants to wants to wants to connect with you wants to work with you and then it does right and then something something very miraculous and cool happens it’s hard to replicate you know in another in other ways it can obviously be done but it’s a wonderful it’s a wonderful thing that that the human human person and the mushroom can do together yeah wasn’t that uh the Netflix change your mind yeah I think that’s when I initially saw it and from an evolutionary perspective those guys really believe in the depth and weight of these on this mycelium and it’s it’s it’s really cool the way that you guys identify how the mushroom kind of works with you um and can create an experience and more objectively create an experience which you don’t have to necessarily tether to or be over emotional with you can kind of see it in front of you and if it doesn’t you know you can let it pass or bring it in or intentionalize it or integrate it I love that opportunity because for whatever reason when you get into talk therapy so often you get these dead ends and I don’t remember or these blank spots and that was the story of really that my first 10 years of recovery and I was one of those people that sat in Alcoholics Anonymous for the first six years and I was the Secretary of the meeting that had a little bit of depression thought about drinking each day but because I love the community so much and the people were like family to me I stuck around was able to do it but I look back at that experience and offering up something like psilocybin or potentially been ketamine probably could have created a quality of life in my first six or seven years of recovery that was better than a six out of ten um and this is so exciting for people coming in now because they’re really at least in the Peaks experience we’re getting to introduce them to the best of what we have a lot like you do with your clients um and walk with them in that journey and we’re seeing people at Peaks coming into inpatient treatment settling in the first three to five days because they know well first they can see the recovery inside our program because it’s broad it’s open-minded um and it has these offerings that you talk about that I think really have the ability to move people on um and get to a safe place much quicker than they would otherwise now think about it this way like imagine this like just kind of being in the metaphor Chris like you’re in these uh AAA meetings you’re you know you’re you’re the secretary you have your regular folks that are coming you love the community right that those are the trees right the tree those are like we we want to give you the shade we want to shuttle the nutrients to you let’s go to coffee I want to give you know give you a cake on your birthday or you know read the book with me you know and they they that it’s the same thing right and if you could imagine if that was just more acceptable right like you can have the wonderful benefit of that community and be like no and and and I can also have uh mushrooms I can also have the relationship that mushrooms offer me kind of internally right and being able to have have both right I have both to to to have a more fulfilling life experience a healthier more well experienced yeah I love that because I think I think for a long time especially young adults and when I got into this I was 22 years old and I literally thought it was a life sentence to mediocrity and so recovery was because we have this allergy we got to walk through we got to do these things that other people can’t do and this this new way of thinking is is quite the opposite of that you can have everything that you could have ever imagined we just have to walk through these certain steps and develop this um authentic and vulnerable connection with others we have this opportunity to recover in a way that I don’t think was possible before just really cool stuff just sit here watching I’m just like oh my goodness cool I think I think what will be interesting to see is you know mushrooms are you know Mind Medicine they they are good for depression but it’ll it’ll be interesting when and if they allow something like MDMA or another kind of plant versions of MDMA yeah that will allow like uh heart medicine with Mind Medicine together to really really deeply um transform a person’s experience right now I think we you guys can’t use MDMA yet right no or you can use uh plant versions of it yeah yeah that’s it and even then it can’t be used in kind of formal I mean it’s we’re in a nebulous area right now yeah you know it’s a little unclear and certainly yeah a lot of things are still on the line and insurance and that sort of thing uh still trying to sort it all out but of course yeah um well Steve as we kind of wrap up here I I feel like we should talk again like in six months or a year and have you back on here and like let’s just see where all this is going and I I really appreciate your passion it gets me really fired up if I’m going to be honest with you about um where this whole movement is going um it I’d love for you to kind of do a little promo of uh Coast wise if you don’t mind throw your website or and uh talk about how people can reach you real quick and then uh we’ll we’ll sign off for the show yeah I appreciate the opportunity to do that yeah now I would love to be come back in a half year a year I like the friendship that we’re that we’re building you got a great I think I think any client that comes to you is going to be very well served and very lucky um and I and I hope that people have that experience with with Coast wise um if you want to find me you can go to um coastwisecounselingcenter.com that’s the therapy side or you can go to Coast wise Recovery Center that’s the outpatient drug and alcohol side um and follow all the links so my phone was on there um and what I would say to any kind of like would-be listeners or people who who are looking to heal um in any other way you need to it’s like really I said it earlier um the coastwise brand all my therapists my whole team myself what what what we believe in is that you deserve to have a good life you get one time on the ride you should be a good one if you choose to work with us we’re going to be honest with you we’re gonna be caring towards you and we’re going to give you a really solid experience and we’re going to do our best to help you have more of the life experience that that you know is really possible for you I mean it would be a delight to to at least answer questions or if one day it felt right for you to work work with me or any of my team that would be it would be a real um delight and I’d be grateful to have you so um thank you for for having me on guys any listeners out there thanks for thanks for listening and I hope to I hope to you know keep up the the relationship and the friendship with you guys at Peaks yeah I’m really looking forward to that as well and uh next time I’m in the LA area I plan on looking you up Steve I’d love to get coffee or something with you and um really appreciate you and I think anyone who goes to Coastal coastalwise is uh fortunate to have somebody so Innovative and kind of putting forward um where we’re going as a field rather than uh where we’ve been as a field so I I appreciate that and uh with that uh we’ll go and sign off please uh follow us on finding Peaks uh for fall finding Peaks uh you can follow us on Tick Tock there we go uh you can find us on Facebook of course uh Instagram um feel free to email email us at questions at findingpeaks.com um and uh and with that we’ll sign off thank you everyone and have a great day peace

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Episode 101Insights Into Emotional IntelligenceWatch Nowhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUxfSmenPw0Listen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Brandon Burns brings Lauren Atencio and Samantha Archuleta back to share their clinical insights on the notion of emotional Intelligence. Together, our team looks over emotional inelegance and approaches to working with it. Brandon welcomes the five components of emotional inelegance to spark a debate throughout this episode.

Talking Points1. What is emotional Intelligence 2. Approach to emotional Intelligence 3. Looking at dopamine 4. Five Components of emotional Intelligence 5. Self-awareness 6. Self-regulation 7. Internal motivation 8. Looking at empathy 9. Emotional states Quotes

“I think you do have to be realistic when it comes to emotions because if you’re not, then you’re always going to be let down, you’re always going to be so fearful of what comes next; this goes into the control conversation as well. There’s so much fear in emotions because we don’t know how to control them, or they are so unknown. It’s really just something inside us that if we go into those small actions, it will teach us how to control it more. ”– Lauren Atencio, Clinical Director

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -101- TranscriptsBrandon Burns chief executive officer for Peaks recovery centers bringing to you another exciting episode of Finding Peaks today very excited to be talking about uh emotional intelligence big topic out there on the web good or bad in between you’ll know by the end of this episode join today by Lauren atencio lpcc Lac Clinical Director men’s program couldn’t do it without her and Samantha Archuleta LPC Lac all the clinical things primary therapist intensive outpatient program for Peaks recovery centers she has all the clinical things she has all the clinical things I I thought about that because it’s easy to do with like the Chiefs in the room but then now we’re now we’re moving between titles so um anyways she goes by Sam too by the way folks out there we don’t got to do the whole name there but that’s how that works all right thank you both so much for being here today thank you for visiting us busy schedules clients chats all the things we get to take a little reprieve and do a little philosophy around emotional intelligence we love it because that’s what it’s about for me so let’s get to it because we’re disruptors as you know all know out there and we’re going to do some disruption here today or maybe not we’ll see um but emotional intelligence it’s a big topic out there in the world wide web um when you’re looking through or researching this information you’ll run into things like EQ like emotional quotients there are tests and strategies and ways for identifying emotional intelligence that exists out there but we’re not going to dive into that today because we think there are components of it that are more kind of valuable to go through rather than focusing in on like how company systems and you know people develop employees and things like that but I think starting with a general definition of what is emotional intelligence it is the human ability to recognize understand even exploit and manage one’s emotions in the most positive way I guess uh speaking to it so um when you know okay I’m gonna get ahead of myself here I’m getting excited got a little caffeine coming in this afternoon so let’s just roll with the definition human ability to recognize understand even exploit and manage one’s emotions positively from the clinical perspective are we onto something here yeah I mean an emotional intelligence is pretty much everything we deal with right I think the idea behind managing emotions regulating emotions all comes into play when you look at mental health when you look at substance use most of our clients are just looking for ways to control emotions or push them down push them away whatever it is because a lot of the times especially in the men program we see is there’s absolutely zero insight into their Emotional Self and just their emotional being as a whole right it’ll be how are you feeling oh I’m I’m angry and it’s like okay yeah so tell me about the angry I don’t know I’m just always angry and it’s so it’s just really hard for our clients to identify what emotion is present and I think that is kind of the way it is in society right we just put these General labels on emotions you’re sad you’re happy you’re mad and it’s really what does that actually mean you know we’ll have clients walk by and they’ll be like hey how are you today I’m okay well what does that mean because a okay is not an emotion so and you’ll find that they they really can’t tell you because they are so disconnected from that Emotional Self yeah I think when I hear the idea of exploiting or controlling our emotions it can be kind of a trigger word for people like controlling your emotions don’t feel your emotions process them but when you can develop through emotional intelligence you have the ability then to understand the emotion which then gives you more power over it exactly going into this place of oh I have no control over my emotions well if you understand them more and not run from them then you learn how to manage and control them but it’s it’s really hard emotions are overwhelming I think a lot of the clients we see they feel deeper than the normal human feels because they have have these extensive trauma histories they have these maladaptive behaviors all put in place because their Emotional Self is just overloaded and it takes them out of their window of tolerance so much and a lot of what we do at Peaks is just okay let’s just get familiar like sadness isn’t a bad thing to have it actually is a beautiful thing to have so let’s get to know it more so yeah yeah it’s a good view of spirituality there like the negative emotion or what are perceived as negative emotions actually can be very enlightening and build awareness and we can uh gain awareness around it and one through that acknowledgment move forward in a positive way and I think you know around being sad it’s just okay to be sad sometimes yeah it’s just okay to be grieving it’s just okay to be emotional without the what or the why but also at the end of the day we don’t always want to be in a position of non-knowledge and not knowing what we’re going through and you know you bring up just walking by clients every day I mean it’s just kind of fun coming into you know philosophy major out of college coming into a company culture of clinicians that’s what it’s like folks to work around clinicians like how are you doing I’m doing good you know how are you really you know and what does good mean and all those types of things so welcome to my world out there that’s generally how it goes uh before we kind of move on you know we talked about it on the the past 100th episode but I think it’s a common trait as well too in the world that there’s action thoughts and emotions right we’re going to act first the thoughts and emotions will follow kind of categorically speaking do you see this emotional intelligence thing you know kind of working out in the same pathology or do you take this more from like a clinical approach to be like okay we’re going to focus in on the emotions out of that awareness we’re going to go back to action thoughts and emotions or how do you see that kind of fitting within that trifecta I think a part of that is the awareness that leads um I actually run a group just the other day it’s DBT focused which a lot of this speaks to like regulating being able to manage the things happening being able to process and respond in an appropriate way is when we can be mindful and be intentional and be aware of our emotions it causes a space between the action so if we can feel the emotion the sensation the emotion pause through mindfulness um reflection awareness then we can act in a way that is more No Limit with who we want to be our values and our goals which I is that for me how you play out emotional intelligence yeah I think what I’ve seen a lot is emotions Drive the actions and thoughts most of the time and so we have to kind of look at all of those components in order to kind of assess you know okay so sadness is your trigger that allows for you to go out and find substances find you know different self-harm mechanisms these different things and then your thoughts kind of Shame you in a way for that emotion you shouldn’t be feeling sad you shouldn’t you should have all of these it’s the kind of us therapists call it shooting on yourself um
very clear um but it it all ties together in such a big way and what I’ve seen is that the actions and thoughts are a ways of controlling the emotion if I can just have the right thought if I can just do the right thing then all of these emotions that I’m carrying will get just go away but again going in that’s not really how it works we have to identify the emotion in order to be able to process it and then thoughts and actions start to kind of control themselves after that so I think they are very very tied together in a big way and we definitely approach that clinically yeah well we we were we’re I promise we won’t dive in we’re chatting a little bit about the old free will decision making power and that type of thing prior to the episode so if I lack awareness and insights to him my emotions uh and out of that can’t develop you know an appropriate action that changes thoughts and the emotions you know that follow what would be an appropriate way to think about how to I guess where does Action make sense first under the condition that I don’t kind of have this emotional intelligence yes yet I don’t know how to regulate it I’m stumbling in the world I lost my job I’m out of my relationship all of these things are kind of falling apart it seems like in those scenarios uh action matters and so where would where do we I guess just giving the viewers out there an understanding of okay if you’re dysregulated in this way maybe the best thing we can do first is to act yeah 100 it’s going back to like making these little choices in order to tend to that emotion right because we spend so much time running from it the action allows for us to run um kind of going into that trauma response fight or flight sadness makes me my trauma response go off and now I am going to run away from it as fast I can that’s the action if we can teach them on the other hand hey you don’t have to run away from it because this isn’t actually a temporary feeling this is actually something that will be resolved then it allows for space for them to to implement more action in order to find some emotional regulation skills in a big way well and I think we prior to the episode we were talking a little bit about how it takes an action to kind of instigate the rest of the change and I think it takes that discomfort itself like when we’re tired of being sad tired of being angry tired of being those things we are able to then say I need something different and that decision to make a different choice or say I even out loud I just need something different that’s an action in itself to then keep getting the help and making better choices act on just make a phone call act on reaching out to a friend for help act on I’m going to call a counselor today and yeah right as small as like go for a 10 minute walk out outside right I was saying even um right before this like we’ll have clients sometimes like where I’ll be like just be nice to yourself for 10 seconds right like just little tiny things I think we get so caught up especially with emotions on this big picture like I’m gonna be able to manage this and I’m going to be happy but it really just it requires you to do little tiny action in order to get to the Big Goal you’re kind of seeking out and we talked about it too we kind of did the whole episode for the viewers out there prior to coming on about this but um uh the the concept of and and we and I’ve talked about this on several past episodes now but how dopamine essentially works and and what biological structures and systems are trying to do is exist within homeostasis right that we are to be content sort of in the middle so when we experience pain the dopaminergic effect or homeostasis is trying to lead to some pleasurable state that balances it all back out until we’re you no content again and then you know kind of the problem with drug use right the reason it almost works is because it gets us that great pleasurable state but if the if the biological system is trying to return it back to homeostasis we’re going to start experiencing pain along the way and that’s you know you know insert there you know of course tolerance and all of these things that take place in drug use but it it really starts to make sense and I just want to highlight that because so much of feeling pain for us because it is so miserable to be in those moments of suffering it feels like the world or our situation should just be this state of kind of Happiness on the other side and um but that doesn’t strike me as the goal through biological systems but just curious from that clinical perspective how we could share or reinforce maybe that view with the viewers out there yeah kind of like I was saying before is like we have a lot of clients come in and they’re like I just want to be happy and I think that is such a broad statement we can’t just all be happy all the time like it goes back into the idea of contentment I want to feel content to the point where if I do feel happy I can embrace it and if I do feel sad I can also embrace it but having this idea that happiness is this attainable place is something that is just not realistic and it’s impossible and so if you are on your mental health substance use journey and you’re like my goal is just to be happy that expectation is just never going to be met or that goal is going to be never met and then it takes us into a place of I’m right back down where I was because I feel so discouraged well and I think in moments when we’re our clients start to heal and feel happiness again even moments and bursts that come down back to homeostasis is very hard because they’re like oh no I’m getting bad again I’m getting sad again I’m getting depressed again so then reverting back to Old patterns becomes easier because those neurons are stronger it’s been a pattern for x amount of years and being able to grab the skills that we teach that self-regulation those other things first is something that I think we try to teach in our curriculum both inpatient and outpatient of let’s try to grab these other skills first these new skills that we give you yeah yeah and really normalize it like normalize emotions in general like hey man you are going to feel sad I you know I had a client left recently and he was like I just feel so good I’ve never felt this good in my entire life and I was very honest I was like that’s gonna change at one point in time you are not going to feel this good so what are you going to do when that happens because cause I’m not saying if that happens when that happens because it’s just an inevitable thing I think last time we were on here Clinton talked about the idea of like we live in this life and then this world of like shame and it’s just sad a lot unfortunately and so I think you do have to be realistic when it comes to emotions because if you’re not then you’re always going to be let down and you’re always going to be so fearful of what’s next goes into the control conversation as well there’s so much fear and emotions because we don’t know how to control them or they’re so unknown and it’s it’s really just something that’s within inside us that if we go into those small actions it’ll teach us how to control it more absolutely it reminds me of the uh comment I’m gonna antagonize this because it just keeps coming across my desk the Bros science of cold plunging at the end of the day you’re doing something that’s causing a dopenergic response of pain so the reality is it’s going to take you to the other side of pleasure my problem with it regardless of the Sciences of it is it again is going to take you back to homeostasis and again we continue to externalize strategies and how many times as a society do we have to mess with our dopamine structures to recognize how poorly the outcome continues to be at the end of the day when we’re swinging it from one side of the fence to the other over and over and over again when the reality is just to kind of sit in the middle and be content and that’s sort of my transition here from the external to the internal world of our emotional intelligence and we’re going to dive into the components of it now folks out there so for all you uh cold plungers out there keep row sciencing it forward and finding Peaks at peaksrecovery.com information and finding Peaks however reach out to me tell me how frustrated I just made you because I want to talk about this he really does just eager inside I’m trying to antagonize you all out there to be like you know what Brandon if you say cold punch is stupid one more time uh bring it I would love to talk about it um or if you’re super passionate I would love to have you as a guest on here so we can do this together um so there are five components there’s kind of like uh you know Samantha you did the kind of some research into this as well too there are I ran across other five components you know they’re all along kind of the same lines but these were the most consistent ones I found so I’m not trying to speak to all of its components but the five ones that came up in particular were uh of emotional intelligence were self-awareness self-regulation internal motivation intrinsically speaking empathy and social skills and so you know what what I think is valuable for us and what we’re trying to do because we’re not going to talk about the quotients or the tests or those types of things that exist out there but these sort of things um I think we commonly work through within a clinical setting uh and uh certainly across the organization I think trying to promote you know Wellness on behalf of each other as a staff but starting with self-awareness you know we were talking about uh kind of the beginning of the episode and the challenges around Choice um you know we’re not going to antagonize the Free Will thing here too much but it seems like okay I made a choice because I lived in harsh circumstances or the world told me or kind of causally drove me in this way I took drugs and alcohol to cope with the world that I was living in I didn’t know what was going on I ended up in a place like Peaks recovery centers now I’m doing clinical work and I gain awareness about the condition and what led me to that in that moment and for the viewers out there for another episode that’s where I would start to antagonize I think we got a lot of choice decision making power because once we gain awareness responsibility starts to insert itself in that regard but achieving self-awareness or self-regard self-actualization or emotional self-awareness is not just like immediately available like my phone is here for a lot of people at the end of the day so you know as a component you know clinically speaking um is this the first it feels first Steppy to me kind of in a clinical approach but I don’t want to draw too much on the cards here um what is your perspective of self-awareness and where do you see that really starting to come in as a component of emotional intelligence it seems to be highly highlighted as the first so it seems like the priority yeah I might be a little biased here too so Sam I have a little bit more but I I am definitely an Insight therapist I really really really strongly believe in self-awareness because I don’t believe that if we don’t have some kind of self-awareness then there is no motivation or kind of almost ability to change right I think there’s so many different behaviors that we display when it comes to emotions that we think is this is normal like I I’m supposed to just cry and lash out when I’m angry and I’m supposed to like do all of these different things and and really what I I agree with in that statement that I think awareness is the first step because as long as I have awareness to know oh I lash out and freak out because that’s how I’ve protected myself my whole life is that when I get angry people leave me alone and so once I find awareness there I can then say you know okay I’m gonna practice not lashing out if I do how do I wrap back around in order to start to change these behaviors for me I I again am huge on self-awareness because that is the only way we move forward and it’s the only way we kind of find that motivation to say okay I’m not bad I just have different behaviors that served me in the past and now they just and so now I have to learn what’s going to serve me today I actually totally agree with you and I think emotion focused therapy is a good place to like speak on this a little bit is when we ask clients how are you doing or when Brandon got here we said how are you doing and he paused and thought about it and I think that’s what we talk about when we talk about emotional intelligence being able to pause and say okay this is kind of where I’m at and actually where I’m at what my body feels we often talk about Sensations with our clients because they can get in touch with the warmth of anger but maybe not the anger and why it’s there so if we can get to the warmth we can get to the anger to the sadness to the feeling left out or frustrated and we can get to those other things when we can get in our bodies I think the other part of this is that people have become so scared and you know intimidated by their Emotional Self that awareness has actually just gone off the table because in order to bring awareness into the conversation would mean that you would have to feel this this stuff and so not having awareness is almost kind of easier at times because it’s like okay well then I don’t really have to know all of these parts of me and I can’t change that and all of these different things so well and I think we can change Behavior without changing that but it’s not sustainable right so we can change the behavior I don’t want to lash out when I’m angry so I’m going to go isolate well that’s probably not also the healthiest for you and so we get back to anger and we kind of toggle between those two because there’s not the intrinsic awareness of what’s actually happening for you or why it’s coming up or the history of it when I think too like there’s some personal responsibility in there as well right I think we’ve we’ve talked I think we talked a little bit about that before is this idea that like Peaks is 30 to 45 days you know Samantha Lauren like we’re all not gonna be there when you leave like there has to be that awareness there so when you go home and you’re talking to your wife and you notice yourself starting to shake because you’re getting so anxious aware of the conversation is going you can’t just run to the office and be like hey Lauren what’s what do I do you know like there has to be okay so this is what I’ve learned about myself I get nervous in confrontation confrontation was never displayed in a great way for me and so therefore they might have to take a step back and utilize some of those tools but there has to be some personal responsibility again in actually taking action in that yeah a big a big piece that we didn’t uh I the host I’ll be clear did not introduce in the beginning was emotional intelligence is just not internal awareness but also awareness of the emotions of the individual in front of you and so insert family work here as well too right and prioritizing that and so we need to not only be internally self-aware but you know under that uh scenario you gave where you know I brain and leave treatment and now I’m in front of my wife something’s escalating or whatever and I’m getting anxious you know what’s going on the person on the other side and this is the I think the big piece of family systems and and just want to roll through and hear you hear your both your thoughts on it is that person needs to know when they’re at the same time triggering emotions and and building that up and go and maybe what do we do in a moment like that and so one maybe let’s just reinforce like family systems and when somebody goes to treatment many of us have to learn along the way what we’re going through because on the other side of it for as much as we were trying to get the person into treatment you know we often discover through a treatment episode that family systems have a lot to do with the anxiety the build-ups or rejection the feelings all of that sort of stuff and so it feels right sized I think to just kind of insert it at this time and encourage for the viewers out there strategies around family systems fulfilling sort of this emotional intelligence as well too and not just leaving it to the individual yeah you know we get a lot of clients who come to treatment they feel so much better and now they’re gonna help their family feel better they’re gonna change their family they know exactly what their families need to do now in order to help with their emotion and then and it becomes difficult because this is where we what I’ve discussed with clients is like you only have control of what you like are doing you can’t make them do anything you can’t force that um and so there has to be again some awareness and emotional intelligence of why am I getting anxious in this moment with my wife or why do I why am I falling back into people pleasing behaviors and it’s because that we feed off of those emotions so much with our family and so there has to be you know like we do offer family sessions within treatment residential treatment and IOP um in order to kind of solidify communication and one thing I always tell families is that like we’re going to stay stuck in the context forever you guys just need to say how you’re feeling because it’s like a lot of well you can’t do this and you can’t do that and it’s like okay why why can’t he do any of those things well because I’m scared okay we can work with you’re scared but we don’t work well with you can’t do these things things so I don’t know if no I think to add to that it’s the empathy piece which I think is the pillar on this or one of the five main and having empty and being able to say like Brandon clearly looks uncomfortable in this and or Samantha’s clearly uncomfortable like I can take up more space or I can take up less space or whatever that other person might need because you’ve taken the time to be vulnerable share the feelings do the emotional awareness regulate yourself and then you can help and support that in another person as long as both people are willing and able to do that piece which I think is where our family programming our family sessions and all of that can help the client go back into the best environment possible and they have to change the way they show up in the environment as well like there has to be recognition of okay I can’t get angry with my wife because um you know she gets triggered and I get triggered and so how are some skills we can use to say hey I’m I’m feeling angry I’m gonna go take a walk I’m gonna go do these different things in order to not just like have this huge emotional blow up and then separate and we just go right back to our maladaptive behaviors and no change occurs moving forward absolutely I as we were talking about before the episode I want to go back to that moment of the first time you show up in the family system you know that idea like I go to treatment I go home things wrestling with wife and I’m gonna put forward hey I’m experiencing anger and I’m going to talk about this because that’s what I was taught to do in this moment but I I want to honor just like stepping on a treadmill for the first time just like going to the gym for the first time just like going to clinical for the first time just anything for the first time that requires more work on the other side of it as we were talking about the kind of the first emotional feeling is like stupid yeah yeah Lauren got me all worked I’ve been dreaming I was able to do it one-on-one like open share like hey now I’m sitting with open chair like I’m gonna read through my list here and I’m going to tell you how my feelings are now it’s real life and I just want to honor that aspect of self-awareness that the moment we get the courage to actually do something that we’ve now become aware of there’s a tendency for which it feels silly and worthless um for me I don’t know where that comes from maybe it’s a societal maybe you know maybe it’s a an American issue you know I don’t know but there is that sort of first impression of like this feels dumb and I want to honor that yeah yeah especially
especially sometimes like I’ll be like okay I want you to write down affirmations and it’s like uh okay how is I am strong gonna help me you know like I don’t really understand but I but I think one thing that we need to consider is that we as humans we get in routines and we have behaviors that are routine based and so if I don’t go to or if I’m not used to confronting my wife about something then that’s not going to be the easy thing to do but we have to continue to practice new behaviors in order to kind of fire new neurons in our brains in order to make it a habit instead of just something I do occasionally rewiring that feels really important because and no one most people the first time you try something new you’re not gonna be great at it I’m not gonna shoot a layup the first time I go try if I haven’t played in 15 years but I am gonna know kind of what to do I know the skills Lawrence told me how to dribble so if I just push it up that’s that’s the next step in this and keeping practicing it eventually I’m going to be able to make that layup easily and that’s very similar with these skills they just I think feel a little scarier because it’s all happening internally when it’s all up to them right and then I think you see clients who struggle with that anticipatory anxiety so much that I saw this um thing on Netflix where like they showed a monk and like a normal person get burned by something and the normal person um felt more pain right before the prick of the burn because their anticipation was causing the pain to happen and the pain of the burn was actually less than the anticipation of it and so I think that’s another thing is that when we’re not very aware of our emotions we don’t feel like we can you know manage them in the way that we that makes us feel comfortable is we start going into our thoughts catastrophizing All or Nothing making something you know I’m gonna go have this conversation with Brandon and he’s probably gonna fire me and it’s like no there’s it’s not going to happen and most of the time the conversation goes better than we even expect yeah absolutely that’s hard too yes I also have no power to do that in company cultures um
yeah and I feel that sometimes he boxes me eyes like Brandon I got this one fire somebody let me do it yeah um
I love the place we work I think we have such a great culture I’m glad we can haha about CEO of firing people especially Lauren yeah if Glenn and Jason Marie right now they would love it yeah um so so self-awareness we gain it or we’re nurturing it we’re moving toward it why because we want to continue to make right choices in the world right I can’t make the right choice when I’m emotionally burden or I don’t understand why I’m responding in the way or reacting in the way that I do through awareness I can gain in time incremental moments of confidence for which allows me to better take a step back and finally go you know what I’m not going to flip the person on the road off right now uh I’m actually okay with where I’m at the person probably didn’t even mean it and I just can’t wait to get to work and get a coffee um and but it’s uh progress not Perfection and it’s certainly directional um and we’ll get into the internal motivation and choice about it but uh so next step self-regulation or we can perceive it as self-management namely managing emotions problem solving reality testing impulse control I think in the clinical sense of things it feels right to me that you know because we’re not in the world we’re in treatment we’re doing reality testing what is it like to be in front of mom what’s it like to be in front of brother who triggers the most those types of things um but now that we have awareness around the condition we need to figure out how to regulate those emotions we’ve kind of glossed over it a little bit through the prior element but let’s do the the Deep dive on self-regulation here starting with whoever’s most passionate I know we both looked at each other and she passed it I think I think of um the depression cure and our DBT skills of the ability to regulate our physical body then when we get in those instances our physical bodies already more close to homeostasis so it’s harder to get to those escalated pieces because we’re so close to homeostasis already our body wants to stay there and it lets us stay there so if we’re getting enough sleep exercising if we’re we’re able to self-evaluate those things allow for kind of the pause that’s necessary before the behavior again and that’s the regulation piece that I try really hard to talk to clients about and allow them the space to take that pause and figure out what’s happening yeah I think goes into that kind of saying too of like feelings are not facts like you can’t make decisions you can’t put all of your money into this emotion and and what’s happening with you and you know that because you’re sad you’re going to be sad forever like there has to be some awareness even around going back to our thoughts how am I challenging my thoughts and in welcoming my emotion I think the the silliest thing we do sometimes is just tell clients like you just have to feel it you know and that sometimes is like I what what does that even mean like clients don’t know how to feel their emotions most of the time and so going into this idea of just like go back checking in how am I feeling right now okay I’m triggered what triggered me okay they talked back to me you know the group isn’t welcoming me as much as I want and understanding okay sadness is a is a legitimate feeling when you’re rejected so let’s just Embrace that legitimate feeling and see how we move through it together see how we Implement DBT skills implements even CBT skills to notice how our thoughts are kind of pushing our emotions in certain directions as well and and really getting into a place again this just goes into self-awareness of like I know when I’m anxious my chest gets tight I start to you know get hyper Vigilant with things my thoughts start going crazy and so I just have to take a second and really evaluate what’s actually going on with me because if I just assume what’s going on with me then I am going to make a decision to fix it based on an assumption and that is not going to work because most of the time the assumption is incorrect absolutely when I think about like regulation and and I think this might be a value to the viewers out there you know we I think there’s a tendency for people to think about I’m going to regulate the whole thing versus like just the parts as we move through it and for me um as somebody who enjoys running out there in the world for my movement my exercise my my physical wellness um the first kind of jumping on a treadmill or just running in general the experience is like the world tells me I got to go really fast I got to compete well I got to be the best that I can possibly be and there’s this defeatedness that really comes in and ultimately what I’ve learned about running is like low heart you know uh heart rate zone training that it’s actually really beneficial for us to be just moving at a very suppressed heart rate and over time that’s going to lead to a better Runner than a Brunner who’s just constantly shooting their heart rate up into anaerobic activity and you know one of the things that’s challenging that I kind of I learned from very simple statements like this guy somewhere out there in the world smarter than me said uh when you’re running you have to remember it’s you’re running at your pace and then the person next to you running in front of you behind you whatever are on their own running sort of Journey that’s challenging for me to hear right away because if somebody passes me when I’m running even though I should be like regulating my run in lower heart I’m like you know I gotta get that person I’m gonna catch up to him and all that type of stuff but so there’s an energy in which like I I’m talking about here that it’s difficult to regulate even in moments of what feels positive to just be slower than the person running out in front of me where the intensity is to like kind of want to catch them um and that was just a process for me in a very basic principle of the world uh such as running and so I just want to honor that regulation um takes place in time and it’s not regulation of the whole it’s regulation of the parts that leads to a better whole yes kind of just stalty there I don’t know I love it yeah it was right I was on point though and it makes so much sense when you look at that piece of I need to regulate this moment and these smaller pieces because that does lead to the whole piece and when you’re running the way that you run now the whole piece is more regulated and then we can Elevate and practice it again and do the same things and keep elevating what that looks like and increasing our EQ or emotional intelligence beautiful beautiful Sam gets a mic drop all right uh third component internal intrinsic it’s internal motivation but we’re thinking intrinsic like it’s it’s uh versus extrinsic right extrinsic just being external to the situation I’m motivated to do something because I want to go to this concert you know Type Thing versus it’s within me and that’s what’s driving it but I think um you know going back to the beginning of the conversation around self-awareness like we externalize strategies for internal wellness and we need internal strategies actually to navigate the external world and so to think about internal motivation intrinsically uh makes sense here as a driver versus extrinsically so I don’t know if the viewers I don’t know if that’s important to you guys out there but it just felt important for me to share it with you but the idea here is to drive to improve achieve and change uh action emit opportunities and creating optimism and resilience Sam at the beginning of the episode Target you here because you were like hey it’s not always easy to be internally motivated about situations um but I think under the the framework for framework here for which we’re building it up as an internal motivator it might be difficult to achieve like maybe the thought around okay um I wanna I just want to be a better uh parent it could be an internal motivator but just because you have the thought doesn’t mean the action is going to follow so just want to honor the challenges here of this but um God is with it I think a lot of motivation can be difficult and I look at clients that come to us depressed and really um feeling unable like I have this desire to be a better parent to be a better spouse and I don’t know how like I don’t know how to get from point A to point B and we talked a lot about the motivation can be in the action of asking for help or those little things we talked about earlier in the episode and that’s where I can buy into like motivation being possible for people even when it feels impossible it’s the smallest thing and being able to recognize that
to like so much I think it’s just the society we live in but I think so much internal motivation is external like when you say like I want to be a better parent most of the men who come through our men’s program what that means to them is that they’re making enough money to provide a home and food they are making sure that they’re paying for all their kids like it’s all of these it’s kind of like that idea of if I meet this standard if I am the best dad I’m going to be the best provider the best husband all of these different things if I meet that then internally I’m going to fix myself internally I’m going to feel better and we’ve had so many clients come in they’re like I’ve achieved everything I have got the best job I’ve got my dream job my dream car my dream wife kids all of these different things why do I still feel so bad and that’s where you really have to take it and say like hey yeah external things aren’t going to help you unless you’re internally kind of self-aware and able to understand that I can engage in any emotion because my life externally as well but if you are looking for external things to make your internal self motivated then that’s just always kind of going to let you down in a way yeah back to my running examples because it’s the way that I um understand like intrinsic motivation for me what’s valuable about running is that it’s to at least for me at 38 years old it’s one of the few Sports out like I can’t just pick up a basketball tomorrow and start you know doing LeBron James stuff uh that’s impossible that takes a career in a lifetime it feels like uh running at the kipchogee levels right the the the the Olympic Marathon athlete and I mean he’s just awesome out there um he runs a two-hour nearly flat marathon time I’m not trying to be kipchogee in my running that would be sort of an external you know kind of measurement of that but I do know intrinsically speaking I can compete at the highest level for myself within that framework and that’s what’s motivating for me like just the idea of crossing the finish line and you know I finished a marathon the last one I did in three hours nine minutes it was 18 minutes faster than the prior one but when I crossed that line and it’s fun being in races like that there are people cheering but it was really just me at the end of that situation and it just felt good that I had accomplished something that I’d moved my goal in the right direction and then I competing at a higher level and enjoying you know kind of the experience alone so there’s a lot of external stuff happening within running but at the same time the motivation at the end of the day to get out of the bed and do a six mile run it has to be moved intrinsically otherwise you know to me I would have fallen on my face I thought I got to do this two hour time thing
that fits from a clinical sense I I think about our empty chair process I think when within our grief and loss week and we do the empty chair process we ask the clients to feel big emotions and these are emotions that they have not wanted to feel because they’re scared of them they feel like they’ll never get out of them and it is they internally are motivated okay I’m gonna sit in this chair and I’m gonna do this stupid activity with you and and all these things right and then and then they have this big release like I’m feeling grief I’m feeling sadness I’m feeling anger I’m you know everything is coming up and then after you ask hey how are you feeling I feel so light right it’s like okay you’re so scared to face this one thing but you actually just prove to yourself you could do it because you got internally motivated to sit there open up be vulnerable and on the other end you’re alive you came out and you did it and I think what I find it it does help with the internal motivation of like oh wait maybe I can do these hard things called emotions and maybe I can move through um the death of my parent or you know the the lost time I have because of my addiction like it really kind of puts it in their face to say oh I can’t do this when I think of that I to not exhaust self-awareness it has to go back to self-awareness and I think in our residential and our IOP program we’re constantly going back to self-awareness to show like okay I did this scary thing that was confronting Lauren when I thought she heard my feelings to prove that I could do the thing and it builds up to these more difficult and bigger emotions to keep proving yourself that it’s okay and it’s going to be okay and you’re okay and when you do that it allows for the whole your whole system to be able to continue to take those steps run the next marathon get up in the morning and run that six miles because you just did three you could probably do three more yeah and on the parental front too it I I it’s you know and I said I was like that’s a true intrinsic you know internal motivator but I can see how it can be immediately externalized you know and I think about or under those conditions I think about um like I’ve in my role at least at Peaks like when Chris Burns and Bobby Pat coming to my office and like hey what’s going on with this or whatever right and those moments like what I rely on is just like what my truth is about the situation um and it’s kind of a facetious example but in generally speaking we’re not always going to make the right decisions right but I know at times when I don’t make the right decision at work or within my relationships generally speaking I was doing it from a place of like wholeness and trying to do the best that I can so when I think about the best parent out there I think about somebody doing the best they can with the tools and insights that they have for that situation and ways to keep it intrinsic would be like hey son I want you to know like I love you dearly and it sounds like you know I did something wrong here that frustrated you but I just want you to know I’m trying my best and out of this now I at least know how I can arrive at this better without thinking about it like oh I gotta make the most money to provide for my family under the conditions and situation that I am I’m going to do the best that I can and that’s the motivation right definitely and also just being a role model right like knowing because of the internal motivation I have my son is now going to grow up and he’s going to find internal motivation to ask for help to know that his worth isn’t defined by his sound calorie these different things that you can actually you know break that generational trauma chain whatever it is is like okay I’m gonna be self-aware internally motivated and the people around me are going to see that and hopefully follow maybe maybe maybe possibly if we keep working on it all right diving through the list empathy is the fourth seen a situation from another’s perspective uh the old Golden Rule doing others is you would have you know done unto you but empathy is I think important one in family systems for an individual certainly who’s struggling but for individuals themselves as well too there’s a difference between sympathy and empathy as emotional states um let’s get into it what are your emotions about empathy
I think one one thing that we find is clients lack a lot of empathy the and compassion for self so it it kind of really shuts them off to kind of understanding emotions not judging emotions you know you’ll hear clients say oh I was the worst person in the world when I was drinking or I was worthless when I was depressed and it’s like okay wait so you were in pain let’s talk about your emotion let’s talk about that you were in pain you didn’t know what else to do so you drank in order to manage the pain because you have absolutely no idea how to manage this pain and it has to kind of go be twisted around in that way of like hey you are not wrong you’re not a bad person sure maybe some some bad things happened that is because your emotional intelligence wasn’t kind of within the self-awareness place right of to say oh I can manage this I can I can move through this no I can’t and so there has to be some empathy in the sense of too like understanding experiences oh I laugh shout because that was the way I protected myself okay we can find empathy for that for that you don’t have to beat yourself up for lashing out every time let’s just figure out why you do it and let’s not judge it anymore it goes into like the brene brown stuff of no emotion is good or bad like they’re just emotions and the fact that we label them good or bad makes it so we judge ourselves more I also think with empathy and that idea of being able to interact with others I think that’s a big part of emotional intelligence and when I can have empathy for myself and the things I’ve been through when Lauren lashes out at me I can say oh that wasn’t about me and that was hers and we get to sort of we talk kind of whose side of the street is it I can clear my side of the street and also leave her side of the street where it’s at for her to do her work on without taking it personally or feeling like a bad parent or a bad friend or whatever it is it allows for the separation with the empathy and compassion still present and I think empathy is an important thing to acknowledge here within emotional intelligence I didn’t do all the studies and put this together but it feels right sized I just want to bring forth you know my high school girlfriend uh broke my heart and what happened in that moment is I go to my buddies and I’m like hey guys she broke my heart can you believe that tears and they were like screw her dude you can do so much better you can do all this and it feels like slipping into sympathy and it also for me created like a victimhoned mentality that she wronged me I don’t have any part in this upon reflection I had a lot to do with it
but it I I think I think a lot of our strategies and friendships are we find ourselves in sympathy land and it creates victimhood and I just want to address that or talk about or get your clinical insights into it because we can steer off the path quickly from empathy here empathy to me would have been a friend standing hey man I recognize she really broke your heart and that sucks and I see your pain and I’m a witness to it um but I can’t sit here with you in this and so as your friend like I’ll hang out with you tonight but what are we going to do moving forward to like move on because you got to know your value Brandon like you’re a good dude you look okay as a person let’s like let’s get out there and buck up a little bit and figure it out from there so friends don’t always have the best sort of language but the true friends in my life are the ones that held me accountable to my situation and that felt like empathy versus sympathy or even like holding space for that emotion right I think the one of the biggest issues with emotions is that we are we live in a society that says if it’s broken fix it emotions are you’re broken and so what do we do we want to fix it oh screw that girl let’s go hook you up with this girl over here you know like we have to fix it’s it’s so uncomfortable for me that you’re sad that I want to fix it I don’t want you to be sad anymore right and then that just goes into The Narrative of like hey you’re not allowed to be sad because it makes people around you uncomfortable right and so being able to have empathy of like yeah I see you’re sad like let’s just sit here like let’s just you know let’s go for a walk like we don’t even have to talk about it like but we have to stop trying to fix emotions because those are just things that we shouldn’t have to fix it’s natural yeah I agree with that and then with accountability piece having the idea of let’s hold this space for now and then when we’ve moved through this motion and we feel more regulated we’ve been able to work through it how do we then become accountable and I think there’s a almost a detriment when we bring them too close to each other and being able to keep them a little bit separate like you said like tonight we’ll sit here we’ll do this and then tomorrow tomorrow when we’ve worked through this and you’re feeling a little bit better let’s move forward let’s evaluate let’s reflect and I think having both back to back can be helpful totally boom boom boom fifth one for the viewers out there social skills this was a hard one for me to wrap my head around um just as just using you know run Brute Force language like social skills trustworthiness connected and confident because it feels like it kind of it kind of feels now like we’re in a hierarchy that you achieved the first four to arrive at the opportunity of social skills and I take social skills to be able to like I’m reading Lauren’s emotions about how I’m behaving right now in this moment or even if I’m it’s not about my action but about Lauren’s actions I perceive that she’s something more than angry or she seems like she’s grieving something right it seems like a a sort of intelligence about the other person was like the best way that I could frame it but right off the cuff it was like yeah social skills does like that makes sense but in terms of emotional intelligence am I under something there in the way that I’m thinking about it yeah I think well Lauren was speaking about just a minute ago of like if I can have my emotions and sit with them and have this it gives permission to others and I’m not going to rescue you I’m not going to save you and then we’re building Community emotional intelligence and we’re building that within our friendships and our relationships of if I can get comfortable with Lawrence grief she can get comfortable with mine and then we have some vulnerability some compassion some increased empathy all the way back to better self-awareness we’ve then reflected together we’ve done this thing that causes us to bond and have empathy and build that together we think it plays yeah absolutely that and I think it also plays into the authenticity piece right if I if I feel you know Brandon and I have a conversation and I don’t want Brandon to see me angry then I’m gonna change who I am so you don’t have to see how I’m truly feeling in that moment so it’s it goes into this place of okay am I being authentic or am I just trying to please you am I trying to make it again going back to the discomfort thing am I just trying to make you comfortable so you don’t feel uncomfortable with my sadness or anger or any of these things it’s no I want in my relationship to be like hey I’m not feeling well and be authentic in that but I think a lot of times with emotional intelligence when we either don’t know how to feel emotions we don’t there’s not a lot of self-awareness we kind of just do the chameleon thing and I’m just gonna do what you need me to do I’m gonna feel what you need me to feel I’m going to make sure that everyone in this room is comfortable because I can’t manage my emotions to the point where like I don’t want to make anyone else uncomfortable and so it goes into like how authentic are you being and that that is a huge barrier with social skills how lonely is it to feel something alone you know like there has to be a moment where it’s okay Brandon I just I do not feel right today and have the empathy have the understanding and have the idea that I’m not making you uncomfortable because I’m just being who I am in that moment absolutely kind of reminds me I’ve walked in Rachel’s office here and there you’re yawning or something I was like why don’t you just take a nap you’re like no I’m not and I don’t know why it’s coming up it’s I’m not trying to like read too much in the situations but I I felt like I what I said was why don’t you just take a nap take a little 15 a little shut-eye you know yeah let’s talk about it in the world I I think this is a crazy idea and uh with upper middle management in front of me you can enforce it let Clint know about it for sure but like what would it be like to work in a company system where people could just acknowledge like I’m tired and they took 15 minutes to shut their eyes and their team members knew about it as well too so when Sam wakes up from her nap the team knows at some point if I feel tired Sam’s got my back right yeah we work in he’s more like nurturing type environments I might be getting way off base here I guess I want to say that it like I can read emotions I can read that you were you were sleepy so tired that day I don’t know if those are emotional states but it looked emotional but I do love that about Peaks is that like I you know I I as a leader um within the company I still show my emotions like you know we were in the meeting the other day we were all checking in and I got a little emotional and you know shared with them there’s some imposter syndrome coming up and I’m this is how I’m working through it this is how I’m and to be able to have this based firm my team to see their you know leader as vulnerable like it creates the ability for everybody else around you to say oh it’s safe for me to feel my emotions and one thing that TJ I think the best thing that TJ Woodward said to us when he was here was true self-care is to just show your emotions just to be where you’re at in that moment because yeah we can do all the spa days in the world but that doesn’t get rid of the emotions right so let’s just say it and talk about it and most of the time that’s very helpful yeah absolutely yeah we’re getting big here at Peaks Recovery Center she’s name dropping TJ Woodward was from conscious recovery just want to point that out there good we get we get pretty big here at Peaks recovery centers and I showed a motion in front of you this morning Jason tried to hand me that business card for the viewers out there why do we still use business cards like what’s the value if you’re out there think about it Rolodex do you have one no but we keep giving each other business cards Chief clinical officer tried to hand me one and my face must have looked like to him about to Superman punch you to the moon right now
yeah it’s a healthy place in the arena so uh going through this the kids only have so much time out there on the Facebook probably getting tired getting tuckered out through their popcorn and soda by this point so let’s just skip to brene Brown’s Alice of the heart we’re bringing this up as a book and a title we use a lot of Brown’s work uh whether it’s strategies or just information for patient care at the end of the day she has all the things to say about emotional states and I think her work’s profound but Alice of the heart um Simon how it can be helpful specifically for the viewers out there you know one of the three things or three emotions states that she came up with a research that commonly people associate with and we talked about a little in the beginning happy sad and Matt how are you feeling I’m mad how are you feeling I’m sad how are you feeling I’m happy and we just have that as a framework to describe our emotional states but brene Brown goes on to say when we don’t have language as expansive as our actual experiences we force our experiences into languages and then languages end up shaping what we are feeling at the end of the day and we can see how we can kind of you know lose this the the two were the two emotions that I know how to separate and that um regard help me out where am I going into the episode
two emotions two emotions the big ones brene Brown always said uh shame versus guilt right yeah shame is I’m feeling like a bad person guilt is I’m feeling like I did a bad thing right and separating those out and a lot of people I think in our in my experience experience the shame side of something out of doing something because there’s a consequence or a finger pointing or don’t do that again type thing um and we receive that differently and then that can play out on trauma and that sort of thing but this is a good example of when we really start to distinguish emotional states they actually are separate and different and it actually was my dad just trying to hold me accountable to something and I should be receiving that because running across the road at three years old across the highway or whatever can be dangerous and I just didn’t know that awareness back to emotional intelligence but uh I know uh at least one of you has read this book yeah in that regard and so uh you know help the viewers out there dive into it and why they should be checking it out and kind of the benefits within you know uh treatment I love love it’s not just a normal you know open the book and you read the it’s I like to look I like to tell clients it’s like the textbook of emotions like it helps you to really Define what an emotion is really understand it and it goes back to the self-awareness thing I think you and I are very similar in the sense of I need to understand something before I like dive into it and like start exploring it with myself and and I use it a lot with clients who are just very very detached emotionally so at least they can put words to their emotion right she has different sections in the book um based on different kind of emotions and she breaks it down you know uh comparison Joy all of these different things that she really just kind of like puts words to what they are and I think that becomes a lot easier to start conceptualizing oh this is how it works for me oh comparison the thief of joy that makes sense I don’t feel Joy a lot like being able to relate to that and I think Renee Brown’s way of explaining emotions is pretty beautiful and and pretty relatable to the Humane experience I would say absolutely I’ve listened to it on Audible and so I haven’t it’s kind of breathing it’s kind of ringing I haven’t done the textbook part of like really engaging with it but the things that stuck out to me and you both know grief is near and dear to my heart is when she can talk about grief is love and I think that was really helpful for me because grief doesn’t have to be the scary thing it can be an act or a feeling of love that doesn’t always feel great yeah I I love the concept of grief as a conversation especially into the philosophical umbrella because I I can’t remember I was talking this about in company culture recently but like what would it be like us to grieve the death of somebody before it happens before we are even aware that cancer is going to show up in one of our loved ones life or grieve you know a relational Fallout and those types of things as a build up to the reality that we are guaranteed these experiences in our lifetime and that feels because you’re passionate about just feels real loving to be like a personal sort of love to walk through grief and understand our time limitedness in this world perceiving the loss of others uh in real time and and why it’s so big and important to me because I feel like again we externalize these concepts of death and relational pitfalls and lacunas and stuff you know into Hospital systems or you know accounts that will take care of it out there in these types of things versus really engaging with the reality of the world that we live in and grieving it in real time not in the way that they’ve died and will experience grief in the same way but that like there is something about kind of the thought of like losing my wife if I really sit with it I can start to actually grieve it in real time and so I just love that you brought that up I don’t know if you want to add anything more to that as a as a lover of grief in the clinical setting I think I’m a lover of it in the clinical setting because it gives us a backdoor to trauma and it gives us that ability to say like oh this grief feels so important and it touches on the very important things gets us right to our core values right to our self-awareness in a way that sometimes going through anger can’t I think too like this just idea of grief is in kind of like you said like this anticipatory thing is like every single one of us are gonna feel grief love mad sad all of these fear all of these different things and so when do we get to a place where we Embrace instead of just pushed away when do we get to a place where we I’m almost I I hate this in a little bit but honor it like I I am living The Human Experience at this point I am this is part of who I am because I you know you know recently lost my grandpa because I loved him so much the grief is hard but at least I have that love on the other end and you know at least I got to experience the love from him even when the grief is hard there has to be some kind of balance it goes I think we had talked about I don’t know exactly so I might butcher it but the Kevin McCauley thing with the pain versus pleasure is like with that great pain I definitely can feel that pleasure and that’s what Bernay Brown says too is that I can’t select and selectively numb if I’m numbing my sadness I’m numbing my happiness if I’m numbing my shame I’m numbing but you know it’s not selective you have to feel everything or you’re going to feel nothing and so being able to maybe Embrace those emotions more and not vilify them but just understand like this is a part of me and I am capable of moving through it no one no matter what that looks like beautifully stated this is kind of rhetorical it’s the last question in all of this but what are the consequences of not getting emotional intelligence right and I’m not talking about the emotional quotient and what it means to be a better leader with emotional intelligence talking about the consequences of personal wellness and a person achieving recovery from depression or retrieving recovery from a substance use disorder what are the consequences if we miss this opportunity or we don’t uh engage in it or believe that we can actually do something like have emotional intelligence how do we see that playing out in our clients lives well it becomes unfortunate because then they’ll never get to know themselves I mean I think they emotions or make up so much of who we are and if if we don’t reach a place where we can find emotional intelligence that self-awareness then we’re never going to be able to find a place where we truly know who we are find that identity peace that purpose peace it becomes a little bit hopeless at times so I think there it’s it’s a huge cost um especially when we look at you know substance use am I going to relapse because I’m not emotionally in tuned am I going to lash out or you know even going into the suicidal place of like I can’t manage these so much that I want to take my own life to feel relief those are the costs of not really figuring out what emotional intelligence is and what my emotions are and how they Define me in a way I couldn’t have said it better I think it leads to the loneliness the isolation the despair that we often are working to help clients work through so that it is manageable and we can work through that I think it’s lonely if we can’t know ourselves we can’t know others and that’s the most isolating thing and it feels sad
it is something that I think we should value more as a society um and again going into a place of like maladaptive behaviors will not stop if you don’t gain the self-awareness into your emotions and take the actions in order to manage and regulate them it’s just they just can’t stop that’s where they Thrive that’s where depression thrives that’s where addiction thrives that’s where everything kind of unhealthy in our lives really clings on to and makes us believe that we’re not good enough in a way absolutely my episodes on finding Peaks are generally longer than the other two hosts and I just want to acknowledge that for the viewers and with you both here today because for me at the end of the day and Alan cook we all know Alan cook he told me as long as he was like clinical work is not rocket science and I absolutely engage and believe in that wholeheartedly but I think what we do as a society even though it’s not rocket science we tune into something and we see oh Brandon and Sam and Lauren are talking about emotional intelligence self-awareness duh next thing right we’re talking about it and taking the time to discuss about it because it does matter and even though it’s outside the context of like a complex math equation or whatever it takes practice and it takes insights and it takes leaning into the information and it’s something that you genuinely have to explore to discover the wellness at the end of the day it is not a page Turner it is not an instant change in one’s life to become aware of an emotion once we’re aware of it now we have to do the more difficult work on the other side of regulating that emotional state moving through our intrinsic motivators finding empathy for self and others and gaining those social skill sets along the way and this is a lifelong project for those who are out there so maybe an inconvenience at times to talk about things for an hour but at the same time like the issue matters and we’re greatly lacking it in the community sense of things and the cultural sense of things and personally speaking when we move towards Wellness we unfortunately reject it immediately in that regard and move on to the next thing or scroll the screen and I just want to say that because I think this stuff matters and for those out there it hasn’t always mattered to me it hasn’t always seemed a value but the closer you get to these clinical people the more and more you’re like damn it those are things I got to work on yeah so thank you clinical world for that so and and with that Sam is the first time we got to do this yes very exciting loved your insights uh on all of this Lauren this is like third or fourth time doing this with you always enjoy your time and presence it’s a pleasure thank you both for being here I’m always reminded of how many chats you receive in these time periods because your botches are just stinging all the time so if anything I hope we could get a little reprieve away from that chaos that is the work life at times at Peaks recovery so for all the viewers out there thanks for joining us questions at findingpeaks.com thanks cube in the back keeping me on point with how the viewer’s finest thoughts questions ideas send them to us because we’re curious for all you cold plungers out there questions at findingpeaks.com if you want to come in here and represent I got a chair here for you I’m down to tango let’s do it all right uh we got Chris on the social media on the tick tocks Facebook’s twitters we we do all the things and they’re super positive out there no politics no confusion just love find us out there on those things until next time Brandon Burns Chief Executive Officer of Peaks Recovery Center signing off love you all thank you

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Episode 100Revisiting Our Top Moments Pt. 2Watch Nowhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMPNVs1Qr2MListen NowDescriptionOur team celebrates Finding Peak’s 100th episode, part 2! In this special second installation of our 100th episode, Brandon, Lauren, and Clinton continue to revisit past moments in Finding Peaks. Our team goes over the word Addiction and how that verbiage can create issues, plant-based medication, its efficacy in its infancy stage, and so much more!

Talking Points1. Revisiting the word Addiction 2. Clinton on the word addiction 3. Dr. Kevin McCauley on addiction 4. Kevin Franciotti on treatment 5. Dr. Bienfeild on wellness 6. Dr. Lerman on plant-based medication 7. Final thoughts part 2 Quotes

“That’s where we start is we say, why are you doing this, what’s the benefit of using these substances? ‘Well, I want to gain more confidence.’ Cool, let’s start over here, then. What does gaining more confidence look like for you? What can you do independently, outside of the substance use, that gives you more confidence? Maybe it’s working out, maybe it’s doing these things but replicating the same effect those substances have but outside of the substance use.”– Lauren Atencio, Clinical Director

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -100- Transcripts

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Episode 100Revisiting Our Top Moments Pt. 1Watch Nowhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RB2bvtkCJEListen NowDescriptionOur team celebrates Finding Peak’s 100th episode! In celebration of this special episode, Brandon Burns brings on Chief Operations Officer Clinton Nicholson and Clinical Director Lauren Atencio to review and reflect on noteworthy moments over the past 100 episodes. From visiting trauma and touching on mental health approaches to the future of Peaks Recovery Centers and the industry, our team brings insightful and thoughtful commentary to continue pushing the industry in a positive direction.

Talking Points1. Revisiting Traume 2. Alan Cook on trauma 3. TJ Woodward on redefining trauma 4. Dr. Ilardi on depression 5. Dr. Ilardi on tribal culture 6. Final thoughts on part 1 Quotes

“Trauma is a part of us. It’s a part of our identity, and it’s in these little pieces and moments and snippets that we actually start to cut away the tethers that bare us down based on our traumatic experiences and the identity we’ve developed around them.”– Clinton Nicholson, Chief Operations Officer

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Episode 99Pathway to Permanent FreedomWatch Nowhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULXjkrygJTUListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Jason Friesema brings back Madelyn Padilla and Chris Burns to share in reflection and conversation surrounding Conscious Recovery and how the partnership between them and Peaks Recovery Centers will shape the future of Peaks.

Talking Points1. Personal reflection on Conscious Recovery 2. Addiction itself is not the problem 3. Our environment at Peaks 4. Toxic shame 5. Spiritual connection 6. Pathway to permanent freedom Quotes

“The environment, instead of treatment.. applying an external force to push you in a different direction or change you, that’s old. That is so old. But an environment for healing, where we’re just going to let you settle, and you actually have what you need already inside of you, that’s hopeful, that’s really hopeful for people.”– Madelyn Padilla, Admissions Specialist

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -99- Transcriptshello and welcome to uh the 99th episode of Finding Peaks uh I’m your host Jason Friedman Chief clinical officer Peaks recovery joining me today I’m just really excited uh my my usual people uh my peeps Chris Burns uh president founder of Peaks and Madeleine Padilla uh admissions specialist and uh today um I’ve got a couple announcements that I want to go over first of all guys cargo pants are back are they oh those are nice yeah these are cargos holy crap what these are but like I’m really excited because like I was old enough to wear cargo pants like in my 20s I had the photos it’s just with the big pockets is that what defines a cargo pan is the big pocket yeah the pocket it doesn’t have anything to do with the hammer strap no okay be on here okay yeah so I’m really excited these are back and now I’ve got some cargo pants these do look cooler than the ones they are yeah they’re really informative years ago yeah um and the other announcement is that uh we had TJ Woodward on here with conscious recovery and we did decide to partner with him we’re now a certified program by conscious recovery and we are beginning to integrate his program into our curriculum and so I invited Chris and Madeline on to kind of talk about the principles of conscious recovery because I think they really just fall in line with uh where Peaks is headed when really where we’ve been and kind of each of our growth over the last few years both professionally and personally uh it kind of leads us to this moment and so um kind of without further Ado I did you guys uh were diligent I think about doing a little homework coming in but first first impression of conscious recovery either one of you
upon you say we’re integrating into that because I think he encapsulated what we are already doing yeah it just fit it works you know I TJ is an amazing guy and we’re picking up what he’s putting down in fact I think we picked it up a while ago um but he just put it in a more yeah he packaged it he packaged it right he packaged it in a way that people could understand and just reading through kind of the principles and some of the stuff he said I’m thinking oh my gosh it fits on a page yeah it’s really simple it’s simple love it I really enjoyed not only the curriculum side but just the way that TJ opens up in the show I can really relate to the part where he was going through 12-step programming he’s 18 months into recovery and he doesn’t feel like he can be authentic and vulnerable and honest with where he’s at but quite frankly he feels like dying and I can really relate to that in the early stages of recovery but I thought it’s the best we had so I just clinch my teeth and did the best I could but it really gives people hope and otherwise seemingly hopeless environment and the way that he walks that through with defining people’s Perfection and then life he calls it environment things happen kind of pile on top of that I think is just extraordinary because I’ve had this experience over the last 15 years of doing this work where it’s very difficult to get people to settle and get safe in the environment specifically an inpatient environment extended care whatever it might be because I would come into TJ’s point with a plan to change you and that was really industry driven and culture driven in our industry for a lot of years and people just had this inability to settle and now through this conscious approach what TJ says holding space knowing your light so you can see it in others and simply knowing that the people that we walk with are resourced enough and have everything they need to do this they just need that safe container I think is the biggest breath of fresh air of which we’ve been pushing but it’s really solidified with this conscious recovery opportunity now I believe as I’ve talked on past episodes the world is a traumatizing place and everybody’s living through this lived Human Experience and so now everybody as I say week in and week out I think can see themselves within the recovery process like what you said the environment the environment instead of instead of treatment because we were talking about this that like applying an external Force to push you in a different direction or change you that’s old yes that is so old you know but an environment for healing where we’re just going to let you settle and you actually have what you need already inside of you that’s hopeful that’s really hopeful for people and that untouchable impenetrable part of somebody where their value is not connected to any of their actions yeah that’s how you eliminate toxic shame I’m worthy because I am alive because I exist and it has nothing to do with the outcome yeah yeah and Justice to look at the first principle that he talked about like you’re already touching on it and it is underneath all addictive behaviors and essential self that is whole and perfect perfect and so healing is just about kind of reconnecting with that aspect of yourself that that you know toxic shame says you’re certainly not whole and perfect and even when you know when he did the training a few weeks ago with us I remember when he when we read this principle I’m like wow do I believe that at Jason’s core there is something whole and perfect and I’ve thought about it every day since then to be honest with you because um there are moments when that when I can touch that and there are moments when that seems a little less successful yeah but you brought up a good comment when you went through the training too it’s like how we Define you know I have a six and seven year old at home when those babies come out into this world you cannot tell me for a moment yeah that that’s a potentially a sinner that they’re doing something wrong that they’re maladapted that they’re going to create harm that is perfection personified it really is and then you watch the world build on top of that young person I know you know it’s like shaving away yeah shaving away right it’s tough to watch and you know in conversations with tj2 he talked a lot about like he he wishes we would change our name frankly like if we would let him to to Peaks like Healing Center rather than recording Center because he’s saying that that the healing comes from that that yourself from that whole and Perfect part of you and allowing that to come through and push through the shame so we just are as an agency or as a as a program like we are here to kind of provide the safety the Band-Aid if you will but the healing the magic of it is happening underneath I love that um the Band-Aid yeah the Band-Aid because it it’s like a scab you know you and you keep peeling it off peeling it off or it is re-traumatized the healing just can’t start right it just can’t if you’ve got your hand in the fire still there is no you know healing process that’s going to happen so if we just get people out of the heat we just take them out of the fire for a minute you know or 45 days 30 days right the healing will happen I mean it’s almost inevitable people are so resilient yeah like they really are it blows my mind uh what people are capable of if they’re in the right ecosystem and it really fits with our alignment with our model with like our from our treatment planning perspective you know we didn’t know the conscious recovery fits but we really bring people in and like hey let’s walk with you we don’t have these drop down treatment plans where it’s like you’re doing this and you’re doing this it’s individualized as it comes and um it really needs to fit them like a glove and to watch people be active participants or guide their own process is really really empowering we used to come in and say you’re going to do this you’re 90 and 90 you’re in a box and it’s like my name’s Chris and I’m a lot of things yeah but an alcoholic today is not one of them and I think that’s important to say because we get pushed into these Corners sometimes through old culture even folks today just haven’t jumped on the bandwagon of that true genuine authentic self and it can be really discouraging for people that are trying to make put their best foot forward in this process and it’s unfortunate that the multitude and I don’t like the treatment bash but the multitude of providers just aren’t putting that foot forward of authenticity and vulnerability because it requires a tremendous amount of resources and curiosity yeah it really does but um Madeline and I were talking too like it it is so much easier to be really rigid and really certain and to kind of embrace the the mystery of allowing kind of the mystery of healing to occur because we don’t have control over it like we just have to provide the setting and this the set and the setting for it to occur and provide our uh our knowledge and information all that but really the healing we just get to access people as they begin to heal that’s tricky and it’s less about us than it’s suddenly about and it’s startling for folks it is it’s really startling like how are you gonna treat me I don’t know teach us yeah yeah tell me about yourself teach us right teach us how to support you yeah sometimes people don’t like that answer they want to know exactly what we’re going to do to change them and that’s the issue that’s where this whole thing went bad in the first place yeah going back to your experience right your experience speaks to the volumes to that because I can remember being in group with you and I told the women this morning I’m like Madeline she’d be like past Chris not feeling it yeah like you neutral like what are we changing and there was an experience in there and an energy exchange that really speaks to me now and it was like this stuff isn’t going to work for me I’m seeing something different I don’t know what it is but this repetitive trying to change me is not going to work and you really dug your foot in the ground in at a time that was probably way before it should have you know oh I was arguing with stuff right the whole thing was crazy you know it was um but I do know where the healing happened and it just happened with people that were willing to be present and that was it and you know what all the other kind of old school stuff that was going on at the time I was willing to overlook that because the presence was really good you know you can Overlook that um but what if we had all the presidents and none of the distractions that are taking people away from the the unshakable truth that they are whole yeah
it’s pretty powerful yeah it is the the second principle that he talks about which I think is great too he says the addiction itself has never been the problem but was a strategy that has lost its effect yes people use drugs because they were yeah so good when he talked to him he calls it the brilliant strategy drinking was the brilliant strategy drug use was the brilliant strategy isolation was the Brilliance strategy not getting out of bed was the brilliant strategy these were given what you’ve been through given your shame given your trauma given whatever these were the brilliant things you came up with to survive and it’s not only like saying don’t be ashamed of that it’s saying be proud of that I’d be proud that you found something that got you through a thing that was really hard and then it stopped being effective obviously yeah but it but that isn’t the actual problem like it was actually this strategy you used to try to address the problem and you know TJ said it he said
whoa okay so now now we’re actually honoring that as a strategy removing the behavior from it’s not a um it’s not an indicator of of your value right now it’s starting to make sense that makes sense like honoring the things that you did to survive they are they’re incredible yeah you know we need to honor that and other people too yeah because it comes at a time in our developmental process right um we’re making childlike decisions because we’re children oftentimes and so what do kids do they try and get safe and it works at the time it’s a really great adaptive Behavior totally but an Adaptive Behavior at six turns maladaptive by like third grade you know and now as you’re tuning your world out there the world’s requiring you to tune it in and so we kind of get pushed in these directions and so I think the healing the opportunity that we have to create a safe container and let people explore the roots of those symptoms from a holistic side of things right can be really really efficacious because people toxic shame they’re already feeling there’s nobody coming in that’s beating themselves upwards from the person walking through the door and so if we can now allow a container of acceptance compassion and empathy and all these badass resources and curriculum that people can weave their story in and out of I think it creates a tremendous opportunity for sustainability which is really crucial in the early stages of recovery Strat and strategies yeah I like that strategies are specific to the environment I have a bunch of strategies that I employed in a certain environment that only work in that environment in a safe environment that’s that’s kind of awkward oh this doesn’t work anymore and they they’re trying to like weave it in right because the brain is like that worked that one time yeah do you remember that yeah try it here and to not be judged for trying it in the wrong the wrong environment you know you know I shouldn’t say wrong but the inappropriate environment for that to work and not shaming people for that either we’re all just trying to navigate and figure out what works right now in here yeah I think that’s wonderful and to not beat ourselves up over something that saved our life and when people first started to ask the question like what did alcohol do for you aren’t you grateful that you had it I’m like no as bad is killing me and I had all this negative energy wrapped around it but I often look back when Mental Health Care was absent which is when I was drinking and you know to not drink what is the next option you know to go to a place for my mental health it’s a very very scary place and Gabor mate says it in his book it’s hard to get enough of something that almost works and you know like heroin it’s a cheap knockoff for that total wholeness this yeah and everybody wants it so bad and and it gets you so close wow people need that they really want that and it’s a cheap it’s a cheap replica it’s a knockoff it’s not the real thing yeah but of course that’s to be human I’m trying to capture that that wholeness again we just we can find better ways though that are always accessible right and and strategies that work everywhere what if we had a strategy that worked no matter what the environment was and I think we do I think it is that unshakable worthiness part of yourself you can take that with you everywhere and no one can take it away from you even yourself like even you yeah being a part of that healing journey and that authentic process um for the individual today is such a breath of fresh air I was just down at the men’s campus and you know just just watching guys safe enough to communicate clearly with somebody like the president of a company coming and saying hey you know this program is absolutely amazing but the other day when you saw me I didn’t say I was like oh crap I didn’t see you you know something as simple as that that is so much safety these guys have been there two weeks and that’s the type of environment we have and that’s what I love about Peaks is it’s so transparent is it has Integrity woven into every corner there’s no dark Corners I mean I think clients really it really satiates the nervous system when people walk in it’s safe yeah there’s no agenda underlying yeah what you see is what you get every day well that lack of safety I mean we’ve talked about on this show a few times like when people have to be hyper Vigilant of like I have to be reading things like where’s the problems where are the dark Corners what are what what isn’t safe here at Peaks like it’s why top to bottom it has to have integrity and it has to be kind of a solid program it’s the only way this sort of thing works I think um let me transition to the third principle uh he says treating addiction must go beyond addressing symptoms and get to the underlying root causes of destructive Behavior um because it’s again like it just speaks to it’s so easy I think to um just say drinking’s bad or heroin’s bad or depression’s bad like here’s the behaviors you have to change uh to be okay that’s that outside in approach um and some of that’s true like there are a few things that need to be adjusted maybe an environment maybe not um but so much of it is like maintaining that Curiosity um to go through that and just like the previous one about um the the brilliant strategy like why is this Brewing strategy here what what what is that strategy kind of dealing with and I think uh that’s to me the exciting part of therapy to be honest with you is helping people track that stuff down right helping people track that stuff down yeah it might be over here right so people say well what are you going to do for me in therapy yeah maybe help you track some stuff down maybe you know yeah that’s right there but like you can’t see it within yourself it’s it is crazy yeah and that’s where I love a lot of the you know where does where does that trauma show up today and what does it inform so I really love TJ’s point on that I think even mentioned the episode like where you feel that in your body I’m a big somatic guy and I think the body holds a lot of that but what I’ve learned through my somatic work is if we don’t have that container of safety it won’t come up and so they used to ask me where do you feel it in your body and I’m like I’m thinking about it right here yeah I don’t feel anything because I’m really disconnected my brain’s keeping me really safe because there’s a lot going on here yeah but I love when we moved into that authentic space we can really start to move some of that old maladapted energy in a really efficacious way that creates long-term healing yeah um not recovery healing and that’s something that a couple of guys have been getting with me lately Matt specifically is like it’s not a recovery Behavior man it’s a life Behavior right I’m like ah yeah you get so caught up oh yeah that works for everybody everybody’s stressed everybody yeah you know and boy what a good feeling to know if you felt marginalized or ostracized or you know outside looking in this is a human condition issue there’s nobody I can encounter that hasn’t felt this in some way it just doesn’t happen and that that we want to talk about safety in the world that feels safer there is some fundamental thing that just connects people on that human level that I think that is safety emotional safety yeah you know yeah for sure I’m sitting here and I’m thinking like it’s a question that’s top of mind for me is why do we still do substance abuse treatment what you’re and you’re the chief clinical officer and I’m wondering I know we don’t do substances is there any efficacy to now I understand from a community integration approach potentially but when we go back to this perfect perfect being I think that that old approach really misses the Mark um because it’s up to the individual and the finger often gets pointed back in my part and so what is the efficacy today if it at all if these substance abuse approaches where people come in and they deliver in packets and they go through relapse prevention and we talk about how you can stay away from the old crowd and erase numbers in your phone and back to the old stuff
I think you’re being a little rhetorical I I mean and I do there’s a lane where that works for some people right like and and I don’t want to undermine that at all like I have um I think the people that I’ve found that sort of thing works really well with are people like I’ve had great success with some clients that are very kind of concrete thinkers like they just think black and white and they literally like oh okay so stop going to the bar and I can do that and stopped and they and they can follow kind of do it yeah um I would say they’re atypical people like that that are just willing to kind of follow instruction and like that is all the freedom they can find is like okay I can I can kind of Follow that path yeah um and I think the more we kind of talk about this and kind of explore Concepts like conscious recovery um and what we’re exploring with our own curriculum at Peaks is that um we just don’t draw the distinction like it’s just like everybody’s in the same pot and like it doesn’t matter if you if you know you’re an affluent person with depression and you’re confused about why you’re in here with all these other people right we’re all the people well yeah right where all the people but we also need to be like mindful that not not everybody is in that spot I mean I wasn’t in that spot until recently like even understanding a little bit of this stuff we get a lot of calls too is my child that’s mental Mental Health primary going to be with people that have that are substance use like what does that mean help me understand what that means because this kid is he’s cutting his wrists right and he’s in pain that’s his strategy is that different than this strategy I mean it’s just a strategy so if we can change the dialogue just to well it’s all mental health but the strategies to survive do manifest in other ways we gotta find the commonalities I think way too long there’s been this this um Schism between these two things and it doesn’t serve either side
yeah well it don’t you think they’re just asking like will people understand me and will they be around people that’s right that’s the real question right and I think as long as as a staff we can answer that question that we all understand yeah we all are humans in living through this Human Condition and we’ve all had to wrestle with these things and it doesn’t matter what your issue is that brought you here like the solution is a lot the same actually right and it’s and it’s kind of addressing that toxic shame and resolving your trauma and that sort of thing I think that yeah is the most helpful I want that light and that’s I love the light that you all cast on everybody and it’s a bright light and it doesn’t it’s not on substance users it’s not on codependent people it’s not on people’s relationship issues not on people with process addiction it’s everybody that’s right and it’s really got to be that way um for it to work for everybody and my goal is always and when I walk with people I always walk with them on a journey of like you know because the substance abuser carries a tremendous amount of shame because of the way the world looks at substance abuse users big time but I’ll often walk with people to say Hey you know my wife used to hang out with recovery crowds and she just used to say things like I would say you know this is 15 years ago I’m like why are you here this is a closed meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous and she would say things like I don’t know I can just really relate to what you guys got going on here whoa never touched a substance and I’d be like well you can’t you know and so like I want to go back and I want I want my wife to be able to see herself in our program right because she suffers just the same right and if we all live to 100 which the substance abuser has this inherent risk and it probably won’t happen but if we live to a hundred we’re in the same spot right all alone exactly right and I think TJ I was reading this book and I was we were talking about it earlier too and I think it’s worth mentioning and I’m a very spiritual person I feel like I’ve had conversations with God and I don’t mean that in a crazy way I’ve been on mountains and I feel like God has spoken to me um and there’s this book that I just read that’s called why religion and it’s kind of a loaded title um and it was a question mark and my buddy and that I met in Ecuador in the Andes had me read it and I’m reading through it and it’s very very wordy but it comes to a point in the back of the book where it’s like a Magic Eye Book when we’re kids when you like cross your eyes and it pops off the page oh yeah and it goes when you know yourself you will come to know the presence of God and for me that just hit home so much with this conscious recovery stuff when I see the light in myself I can see it in others and I can see this true genuine authentic world as maybe it once was right see and then there’s where we got it
come on how often you hear this it just keeps coming up like well I don’t I don’t believe in God I don’t have a higher power so that you know that that part is not for me or whatever you know and it but it’s just connecting connecting with you yeah you know that’s all you’ve got to do that that really is and everything else will be revealed yeah from that yeah and it all falls into place do you think it’s easier though to identify that unshakable piece of you know value in yourself or someone else can you see who do you see it in first because I think you start with I don’t see it in anybody including myself but I actually think that there were times where I saw it in other people first and that opened up the idea that like maybe they see me in that way it’s possible yeah but I don’t know it could go either way yeah I always approach my recovery from what the the culture fed me at the time which was like I mean I was told when I went into a when I went into this field yeah if somebody in early recovery’s lips are moving they’re lying that’s what I was told 15 years ago they’re like okay Training 101 if a fanatic talks they’re lying I’m like wow that makes sense because I’m a liar Shame Shame Shame Shame yeah Shameless shame exacerbate shame yeah more shame yeah and so it doesn’t cancel out no it doesn’t at all you know and to approach people people can feel when you approach them from their wholeness and wellness yeah it’s a much different conversation a much different energy exchange that’s like death right there everything you’re here you’re somewhere you’re trying to connect and and everything you say is a lie
right hopeless that’s hopelessness yeah and I’m less than right forever forever forever permanently and it makes a good it’s sentence setting wins a lot of that stuff was fostered it makes a lot of sense but as in in 2023 I think we can see humans Much More authentically Much More authentically I think so too all right fourth principle we can get through these things uh the root cause and we’ve talked about this one a bit the root causes of addictive behavior are unresolved trauma spiritual disconnection and toxic shame and um man this one hits like I feel really in touch with the trauma piece like I think we’ve been doing that for quite a while and the toxic shame uh you know I’ve been with brene brown I’ve been rolling with brene brown uh since before it was cool yeah yeah oh gee but that that spiritual disconnection piece hits me too yeah um and it was what I was telling the clinical team uh this week was that um it’s the most exciting emerging part of this whole process I think is part of our curriculum and what we’re doing is like I think we have created such a great safe space and we we’ve put the tools in we don’t have dark Corners like you said um and now we built this identity and purpose component to our program and to me like it gets energized by the spiritual piece to find your meaning to find your purpose to find your direction to find your values and to find what it is you believe in and to connect to yourself again and and uh and that goes to what you just said that quote about um seeing the face of God within myself like what um but so like I can feel the power of it too and I can feel that missing component oh it is and it’s exciting because there’s almost this this connection or like a dryness that happens when we’re talking about just evidence-based evidence-based modalities which we do here but my point in that is evidence of what 10 10 to 15 yeah success right is that the evidence like is that is that what we’re looking to that’s not good enough no that’s not even close you know that’s kind of embarrassing yeah so even that evidence-based like
yeah evidence of a failure that’s what I see so we we need to stay flexible and we need to get excited about the unexplored parts or the Unseen Parts sometimes and I do I think it is the spirituality piece it is inevident space just means uh researchable sure and it’s hard how do you research spiritual connection right It’s Tricky right so it’s hard to how do you make that an evidence-based approach how do you Whittle it down here’s the evidence right here here’s the evidence the evidence evidence-based how do people get better you get in touch with yourself you feel connected to people around you you can’t even explain that you’re just back in that state of wholeness that’s all the evidence you’re going to need right yeah but if you need is to know that you’re actually perfect the way that you right and it seems like loaded and but it really is that well and TJ says go back to a time in your life did you ever feel good and I thought about that you know I was driving my car I’m like oh God you know when was that yeah and it was many many years ago in in childhood I remember just feeling like I’m a part of this world I belong in this world I have a place here and then I got farther and farther away from that so there’s there’s some evidence right there that’s when things were right yeah how do we go how do we go back you know recovering recovery recovering what’s lost like how do we get that bag yeah yeah that sense of self is is really really important and I love that we’re talking about this now because it used to be a heavy component of ours when we were 12-step driven a handful of years ago it was like well you’re gonna go to a and figure it out and then you’re gonna find a power greater than yourself and you just found people just coming out just why this what is this you know it says God everywhere and does this thing and it really feels like a box it’s a bigger box than it used to be but it still feels like a box and now it’s one of the components of our program that I think um you know really re-emphasizing and highlighting to have people have that purpose and that guidance spiritually I think can be really really cool and I never knew I never I didn’t hear things like when you get to the bottom of this wholeness and fullness of your true self you’ll then experience the presence of God when I was in Ecuador and I was walking with this guy and my good friend and I would sit there and I would go and this is Mount Chimborazo man it’s 21 000 feet we’re here and there’s llamas and there’s ketchup with people and they’ve been around since the Incans and they’re doing this thing I’m like I don’t know why you gotta over complicate things this is the presence of God and he kept saying I know man I know no trust me I get it and then he gave me the book and I was like wow you do know yeah really cool you find those moments Chris you’re you are literally like on the Mountaintop Jason I have a feeling you’re the same oh yeah you’re the same way it is my church yeah yeah yeah I always say when it’s when we go hiking on Sunday I said get ready for the best church service you have ever been a part of you I’m just seeing now or sing Lander let’s go and it really is because and that’s spiritual it’s like we start at the trailhead and quality of life is abysmal especially for people that are new right 4 AM it’s cold I don’t know where we’re going Chris Burns has been talking for an hour two hours but we’re gonna check in quality of life’s gonna be a four out of ten but when you come across that Summit something happens yeah uh I think you recognize that wholeness and fullness and that true part about yourself that has been lost on that Mountaintop and actually it causes you to focus in on that big time and it’s this amazing experience and I always check in with people like quality of life and they they rattle off a number that’s not between one and ten as they bawl their eyes out and so that’s my goal is like I want and I know Jason too he introduced me to this he’s like let me take you to my church and let me see if you can relate to that and in the beginning stages I thought I did from a spiritual perspective it was much more physical for me and now it’s so spiritual it’s a sanctuary from the way that the the wind blows through the pine needles from the way that they look in the night when your headlamp hits and I could start crying yeah it’s special and that’s the presence I think that we’re trying to show each and every client each and every human that walks through our program that they have a safe safe space within yeah and to find in that spot because maybe it doesn’t maybe doesn’t happen on the mountain you know maybe maybe it happens somewhere else maybe it’s when you’re in your art or your you know you’re working out I don’t know yeah but if if we can help people find the spot where like the Sun hits their face then we win yeah guys been a lot of guys have been playing music lately yeah playing the piano and you can just see that’s the sun’s hitting their face and for whatever reason artists too for a lot a lot of years it’s like Dad is the doctor doesn’t I’m an artist yeah I think we give people like this really cool opportunity to be who they are right and that’s what I love our Friday night alumni groups that have been a bit stagnulately because of the covid stuff we’re going to be back online it’s like these people get in there and they pick up their instrument and they light up like a Christmas yeah you can see it the flow just the complete ugh you know when you see Real Alignment it takes your breath away it does yeah it’s like it just it chokes me up when you see someone that’s in a place of mastery and like flow and they’re in touch with that that piece it does I mean it just can make you cry yeah it does special special yeah and then all this ties into this last principle which is the pathway to permanent Freedom permanent Freedom let’s go through the adoption of spiritual practices and principles I love that full rest restoration let’s go and we’ve been saying that forever like we’re not hanging on by a thread it’s not you’re one foot away from the ditch like I want to live completely unafraid that that’s the only thing that’s good enough for me yeah because I’m worth it yeah and the consequence actually today is not death right and we’re not walking we’re not dealing with those set of consequences today um because we’re in this healed place yeah what I thought of when I when I was thinking about coming on this show too is that there’s certainly a thing that I’ve heard and I probably have said which is this person lost their gift of desperation and I will grant that like if that’s what gets somebody down this path it’s helpful but like you don’t want to be desperate for decades no it it’s that should be a very short-term gift if it is a gift at all I don’t know that’s that’s my thought on that right desperate yeah the gift of the gift of desperation it feels intense yeah it does forever yeah yeah it feels a little pure mongery a little like yeah I don’t know about you’re desperate until you get to safety yeah you know that the gift is the safety that’s exactly right yeah and what is it that you know traumatized people excrete more of the um stress hormone five to ten times oh yeah cortisol epinephrine and so you come in you know you’re an AAA and you’re like don’t you’ll hold that chair tight and you’re sitting there like I got to give to desperation I like the what’s going on internally right and um from a nervous system perspective and our ability to heal and find safety and God forbid we won’t even talk about agency right because that’s been stripped in your adolescence and then you go in and it’s like box over your head you’re like no agency yeah you know you can’t put one foot in front of the other so right I think these are really important subject matters to discuss in a time that’s really worthwhile to discuss them yeah I think it is too and it’s why I was so excited to have you guys on here as we as we kind of really are working how do we how do we Embrace these uh principles and weave them into what I think is a pretty Dynamic uh curriculum now but um I was also telling the clinical team too we’re really committed to not being stagnant either yeah and to to be ever-changing and open to learning and and um open to new ideas and Concepts and and I think that’s what we’ve embraced like we are unrecognizable company compared to where we were even just a couple years ago and uh yeah things are different yeah and it’s exciting and and um it’s palatable I think on our campus and all that so yeah I love the way the clinical team wraps around it too I mean they just have this infectious energy about them with a lot of this conscious recovery stuff and they’re already compassionate and empathetic and now they have you know the curriculum and the structure of this the conscious recovery I think it really just empowers them to go forward even more to hold that space which at times can be really difficult to do because again it requires us to take care of ourselves yep you know we all got to take care of ourselves and I think that’s the difference that special sauce at Peaks is these meaningful moments that matter but in addition to that we have a culture that TJ spoke to that says open and is clear and authentic and people can heal within it because we’re all we’re still in this journey of healing absolutely you know I mean that’s the beautiful thing it’s an even playing field yeah um we’re on the same boat yes it was right yeah right rolling it together and and you know we’ve done our work and we know we know how to help guide these things or to create the safety for the healing to occur from the inside out but um but we’re all in this together yes little life thing called life um anyway I appreciate you guys uh coming on I thought that was a great discussion yeah thank you and with that I think we’ll sign off please follow us on Facebook or download the podcast on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts um Instagram I’m sure on there haven’t seen a lot of tick tocks lately I don’t know someone’s slacking a few new ones make sure you like them and as always feel free to email us at questions at findingpeaks.com and we’ll be happy to address those as we go forward thank you guys again and with that we’re out

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Episode 98Exploring Resentment and AngerWatch Nowhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSNZcvpRM30Listen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Brandon Burns brings Jason Friesema and Clinton Nicholson to the show to speak on resentment and anger. Our team explores the difference between emotions and feelings, resentment and anger, and provides clinical insights throughout every step.

Talking Points1. Defining emotions and feelings 2. Defining resentment and anger 3. Maladaptive behavior 4. Understanding resentment 5. Importance of hard situations 6. Final thoughts Quotes

“In the end, all of the power you need to become an emotionally healthy person is inside you. You possess everything you need in order to be successful on this journey. Knowing that, if you can establish that as a foundational truth, then every time an individual looks outside themselves for an answer or outside themselves as an excuse for why they are responding the way they are, you can bring it back to that accountability.”– Clinton Nicholson, Chief Operations Officer

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -98- TranscriptsBrandon Burns chief executive officer for Peaks recovery centers here in the great Colorado Springs Colorado welcome back to another episode you know I bring all the magic all the great episodes the hostess with the mostess joined by Jason friezma Chief clinical officer of Peaks recovery centers LPC Lac all the clinical things and Chief Operating Officer Clint Nicholson LPC Lac all of the other clinical things and today because of the viewers out there always curious about more information and insights I brought these experts on so we can talk about resentment and anger okay why are we talking about this today because the terms can often be conflated one might lead to another cause and effect relationship it also gets us into the discussion of maybe the difference between emotions and feelings and that’s where the clinical expertise is going to come in right we’re going to philosophize a little bit therapeutically speaking and so that’s what we’re doing today stay tuned walk through it we’re going to present some solutions at the end because that’s what we do at Peaks Recovery Center so here we are finding Peaks I brought my notes don’t get lost with these guys so we don’t get on tangents but resentment versus anger so WebMD
who to trust more I originally looked it up and they were like you have cancer I was like no WebMD I’m just talking about resentment so resentment is a negative emotional reaction to being mistreated according to the old MD description here right um and in my exploration of resentment and uh feelings I think there is a little difference Happening Here you guys want to you want to test the waters first you want to continue to give the definition I want I am really curious to seriously let’s know okay yeah well I think what comes up in my research around this yeah yeah right so non-educational just looking up online here is that uh the difference between resentment and feelings seems to come down to uh emotions like an emotional state right so when we have emotions it’s a maybe we’ll have to do some DBT here by the end of this but emotions is sort of an internal thing I’m having an experience I don’t know how to identify but it feels emotional right at the end of the day it we’re consciously aware of it where a Feeling is can be something that we are consciously or unconsciously aware of right and so before diving into the two you know anger and resentment terms out of this resentment to me is um similar to like a trauma response right you have the hardship you know somebody did something to you that formed the resentment you have the hardship somebody did something new the trauma experience right we take on this emotional feeling beyond the hardship itself and in that way resentment uh is what I’m trying to couch here is similar to like traumas and experience it’s the take away it’s the prolonging of the emotional distress that’s taking place from the original event that had happened am I right here we on track professionals Jason we’ll start with you oh okay uh and then you get are we on track Chief clinical um yes we’re on track next
[Laughter] you know resentments uh I it’s hard for me to hear that word and not think of hey I’ll be honest with you um it’s a big part of uh the fourth and fifth step particularly from a a and really um and from that lens like resentments are uh kind of the building list of uh well resentments of of ways that you have been harmed uh in the past that kind of accumulate and create kind of bitterness well and anger frankly um is is how resentments I think are viewed through the AAA lens Clint well yeah so I was exactly yeah and an anger expert I should be asking the questions that’s why we work so well together yeah uh I guess for me I look at anger as more of like an acute state right it’s something that happens in the moment it’s very it is a like an acute emotion that kind of flares up and then burns out pretty quickly as opposed to resentment which is more chronic it kind of has this sort of persistent underlying presence kind of like trauma like you ex like you were talking about um where you’ve created a narrative off of it and that narrative is being fed through um pretty much I don’t know like resentment requires a lot of energy it actually takes effort to sort of maintain a resentment and to maintain that anger so you’re constantly looking for validation for why that resentment is still true and in the end I think resentment is very disempowering it gives the other person or the other um whoever that resentment is towards or whatever that resentment is towards it gives gives them a lot of power because they’re basically controlling how you are responding and yeah so that’s does WebMD check out yeah I think that’s that so that was three paragraphs down in WebMD so you nailed that um it’s so yeah so frustrations disappointment hardships these are like normal aspects of life right for sure the fact that somebody’s gonna wrong you in this world you know when we get into solution we can talk about like what is in you know what is within and what is outside of our control but generally speaking like and we’ve talked about this on many episodes already whether it’s trauma whether it’s resentment now or whatever is the issue here you are guaranteed hardships in this life absolutely right and that people are not always going to show up in the best way that you expect them to show up uh in that regard and so we are going to be wronged in this process uh and then out of that right whenever the wrong takes place it feels like there’s an Adaptive response to it I think we tried a while ago to couch anger and some adaptive I mean this is like episode six or something a long time ago when we tried it a lot when we tried yeah we’ve grown a lot but there it it feels you know maybe anger isn’t the right term of an Adaptive response but like being frustrated about something might be like an Adaptive thing but when we think about adaptive things right right we’re thinking about something that’s protective and provides security against the person that’s front of us so I suppose in that regard an angry response that distances us from the harm right if that is the mechanism for distance then we can see that as adaptive to the resentment standpoint right we’re talking about something that becomes maladaptive in time we continue to be anger angry at the individual even now even though they’re like physically distant from us and not in a position to harm us in the way that they used to right absolutely and what’s interesting is that not ever every time not every moment of anger turns into a resentment right so you never usually there is some sort of insight that you can gain if you do explore your resentments so I think that that’s the one thing that the big book and the sort of 12-step world does right is it looks at those resentments and it really challenges you to look at like well wait why why was that a resentment why did I attach to that moment of anger and why did it become maladaptive as opposed to help me to you know like yeah create emotional space or to avoid shame or whatever adaptive function anger would usually play in those moments so but I think I think I’m going to push back or I don’t know if it’s pushing back necessarily what you said but like I do think there’s this place for anger for sure oh absolutely yeah Anchor’s great yeah yeah I practice it every day I’ve never seen it um I’ll Trust you on that yeah but I do think I’ve never seen it yet yeah I do think uh anger it can also be really disproportionate to situations right and I can’t remember who said it but uh if it’s hysterical it’s historical is a saying that I’ve heard recently quite a few times actually and I think that applies to anger like if a situation you know like is a kind of a minor violation of uh of being infringed upon and the anger reaction is an eight out of ten um that likely is pointing to there’s something else kind of going on inside of oneself uh and I think resentments I think don’t tend to burn as hot I think I think anger can burn hotter than resentments it feels like or or be a little bit more prominent uh or be resentments could be a little less prominent I think than anger um but they’re persistent like they’re persistent they burn longer if not hotter they are and I think you know I think a lot of a lot about resentment too I think it comes down to a couple things um kind of the resolution of that and I don’t know what M WebMD says about this uh as a trusted source and resentment and anger but well the doctors wrote it yeah yeah did they um pheas and philosophy
but I do think like the resolution of anger kind of or the resolution of resentments uh involves both kind of looking at yourself and figuring out what your own side of the street is and what kind of uh blame and and maybe shame one is discharging on the resentment then it also I think involves uh forgiveness as well um absolutely so well and I think it’s it’s important to differentiate between anger and like rage right like those are I think we often associate anger with rage and actually we use rage as like this is anger anger is not that necessarily rage is like a pretty it’s that eight out of ten nine out of ten sort of hysterical response to a situation then that is usually actually based in fear so um but yeah anger is super adaptive and as long as you know how to how it works within your own sort of emotional structure you know like how it functions within the way that you interact with people uh I have a very adaptive form of anger yeah it’s always there yeah can you describe it yeah right well every time no I won’t go yeah it for the audience out there cleanse indicators if he says the word cool you know he’s leaning yeah cool guys cool cool cool cool yeah yeah I’m gonna go walk around the block real fast so in the in the clinical sense of things how do you see like uh uh this is going to go somewhere more than just the question but how do you see like resentment and anger primarily resentments showing I mean I think patients A lot of the time will show us that anger you know kind of front and center but how do you see resentment showing up in clinical environments you know one-on-one with the patient in that regard
well we we interesting one of the activities we do uh is we literally Drop the Rock um uh and it can be I think we sometimes do it in our grief week but like uh dropping the rock I think comes also as kind of an AAA concept absolutely refer back to that again but like um you know like when we like there’s this metaphor about kind of having a backpack full of rocks basically where you just kind of continue to acquire um ways you’ve been wronged and then carry that bitterness and resentment uh forward for years and decades and and all of that and um that could get very cumbersome and heavy I think over time and and clinically we see it right like people you know angry at a you know at a teacher resentful maybe I should say at a at a teacher someone who wronged them as a child and then upset with the ex partner uh from a decade ago and and and it still carries uh kind of that emotional heat as if it as if a person were wronged uh very recently and so I think a big part of our process um can be to drop those rocks like to unpack those and uh figure out how to which parts again a person needs to own and then what they need to kind of forgive and and let go I mean I think with resentments it’s almost like you start to develop a relationship with them and you identify with them like those resentments are a part of your makeup almost as an individual because they require so much energy to maintain over time it becomes like your story becomes a part of who you are as a person so in a clinical setting or in a treatment setting trying to help somebody identify the parts of themselves that aren’t about that resentment that actually that resentment is um really not a defining characteristic of who you are as a person and then kind of working on the process of you were saying forgiveness I would call it letting go I think that you have to actually really learn how to emotionally let go of situations and allow them to be out of your control which is hard especially if you’re in recovery early stages of recovery for mental health and substance use what are the common you know high level common justifications from like our patients perspective of why they’re holding on to these resentments well I think carrying around resentments can feel powerful yeah I think it gives the Mirage that like you know like you know the world owes me something or these people owe me something or I’ve been wronged and that’s kind of why I’m down and I in maybe a little bit of that victim component but um but really it like it it it’s almost um a drug in and of itself I think where like that power is actually not power it’s actually uh a hindrance it’s uh it’s an anchor I think or or um yeah I yeah it’s a it’s a reason to not move forward it’s a reason to stay where you are and um even though you may be telling yourself that you’re a Warrior fighting these like injustices in the world really you’re just staying in your resentment and you’re not actually pushing through that or challenging it to or or seeing what the world would be like if you let it go because um because then all of the rocks are dropped you’ve got um and you have so much more room to maneuver and I guess you can climb like a lot more Mountains is that the metaphor yeah food it faded off the middle yeah it did I know yeah more finding Peaks right exactly yeah
so in in you know and playing into that kind of Victim Because it’s not just a treatment resentment and anger don’t exist just within like treatment like I think your whole world suffers from it you know in a variety of different ways but it does feel or it’s discouraging to think about it in the terms of like a victimhood mentality but we are holding on to something right out of an injustice and and in that regard I just wanted to cycle through that again because it’s maladaptive it’s not functioning for us it’s not adaptive it’s not providing any opportunity for us maybe the initial resentment uh was enough to push the person away to create that safety or whatever it is but at some point it gets to a moment where it’s no longer functioning in the sense there and you’re also holding on to something for which maybe even the person in the background had they known the resentment existed because some resentments are held seemingly at a level of not like they punched me in the face but like they didn’t say thank you when I walked out of the store you know and things like that or I wasn’t seated at the restaurant within six minutes you know or this person on Twitter said this you know those types of things is where we start to carry all of these things on in sort of a really toxic way so open open-ended but I mean I think I think that’s that’s a really great point and as you were talking about that I was reflecting on um when when I was in private practice another one of your favorite topics um you know I would get calls from you know usually mothers or partners of somebody asking if I did anger management therapy um and so much of anger management therapy is really about kind of exploring what is underneath the anger in my opinion like right like because there are there’s the Justified anger like we talked about but that tends to be pretty quick it doesn’t tend to get you in trouble really like if you if you if a situation happens and you and you respond with the appropriate level of anger like there isn’t usually a lot of trouble around that and so um I always used to tell people I don’t of course to do anger management therapy that’s kind of what therapy is kind of at its heart is that like kind of figuring out what is driving um this response and then you know obviously there are tools and stuff uh that are kind of DBT type related that where people can kind of learn how to calm down and settle themselves um in those moments and but again that does take that self-awareness piece with anger no I think yeah yeah I think you guys both bring up a good point that typically with resentment there’s a significant imbalance in the way that the emotions are distributed as far as the person holding on to their resentment and then whatever that individual uh whatever the resentment is towards a lot of times the person who is the um sort of the target of the resentment is pretty doesn’t even really recognize that it’s happening or it just may not be having the same level of emotional impact so you have this significant it’s it’s really destabilizing you know because you’re not necessarily living within the scope or like you’re almost like in a different world altogether as far as where your emotions are and where you’re investing your time and your energy so yeah and I just want you to know a lot of the therapy you do makes me angry so yeah you are a [ __ ] manager yeah yeah yeah that seems a healthy completely adaptive yeah absolutely yeah only in work environments right uh and so in uh as we’ve talked about the mythonormal gabramonte’s book he talks about and he uses both political figures we’re not going to go into the politics or the political figures but Trump and Hillary Clinton as showcasing their histories as individuals to highlight that these are traumatized individuals and that the traumatized is leading the traumatized in this regard the traumatized is electing those who are traumatized and then in turn we are being led by the traumatized and we can imagine from there without getting into it read the book The dysfunction that can come from such a relationship but I’m bringing it up because there are there are ways in which in relationships that we’re involved in that um keep this maladaptive energy moving forward and for me what comes to mind in like my personal experiences you know going back couple decades now like you know just post high school I had friends in that way where I was going through a what felt traumatic at that time but I was just learning that I was young and didn’t have all the toolkits to like lose a girlfriend at the time but at the time I was going through something with a girl but at the time my friends were like yeah man screw it screw her and all that you know that type of language just very supportive of the resentments that I was forming right and it felt now I’m in this cycle of sympathy not empathy of of like yeah I’m justified in this response and this behavior and then I met friends down the road who were like what’s your part in this and I’m like who are you to ask me what are you kidding when my part it’s like her fault and these types of things but what I’m getting at is like I think those are the most valuable relationships because they stop it in its tracks and they ask you to consider things outside of it and to put it in back into a framework of adaptive or if you keep talking about this I’m not going to hang out with you because we need Solutions and focus here and so curious you know just maybe a personal experience or just through the lens of you know sitting with individuals as well too how often we see people kind of reinforcing these behaviors in our lives and and really what I’m just trying to bring up for the viewers out there is just to be mindful where we’re in situations where maladaptive behaviors are being reinforced where it actually feels really good in the moment but at the same time it’s only reinforcing something that’s only going to negatively impact us moving forward
well here’s what I thought of when you were talking about this and I’m going to um talk about road rage for just a second and I don’t know if you know anything about it but um you know like it’s good yeah yeah I was here uh but I really think like somebody cuts you off in traffic right it’s really a it’s like a it’s like a violation of a one or two on the anchor like it it might be a little frustrating maybe a tap with a horn or maybe just you slow down and uh say ger and then move on with your day um because really you know that person probably caused you to be about two to two and a half seconds later than you would have been otherwise um so it’s really not that egregious now a person who maybe uh is having some issues with uh road rage again not talking about anybody in particular um like that a reaction that like an eight where like they’re hitting the ceiling of their car or maybe driving on the shoulder or something to get around them like in the moment that person feels pretty justified in that like their anger is real like I want to affirm that like that anger the anger is real now it’s a misdirected source of the anger I think and I think what you’re saying is that you’ve had friends in your past who have said you know what I think what what is helpful is when people are like um that’s a little bit of an overreaction there like what what part about that is you and what part about that is the driver what belongs to that other driver part of this belongs to you and we do need people in our lives like that and I think that’s what I think we try to do clinically uh as therapists to try to help people find that discrepancy and then um you know once something is conscious I think that’s when we can begin to change it um it’s hard to change to change things we’re not conscious of um so I mean that that’s my reply like we do need friends like you described and or sometimes we need even professional guidance in that way so well all of my friends are professionals so
[Laughter] exactly I think that you know friendships are an interesting little things sometimes aren’t they uh oftentimes you know friendships really are about providing like emotional support and a lot of times that support is emotional validation right like you want to validate somebody’s feelings like oh my God that’s awful like that must be so hard for you and the problem with validation is that it very quickly is a very fine line between validation and commiseration and once you’ve slipped into commiseration it’s just like man it feels good because everybody gets to get angry and everybody like finding that common enemy like that’s a real thing you know when you have like something to focus all of that sort of negativity on it is um it’s very empowering at least it feels empowering in the moment and initially it it can be um over time though it becomes very disempowering because you’ve given so much of your energy and so much of your anger and so much of your time and focus to this other person and they probably don’t even I mean when I accidentally cut somebody off going 60 miles an hour and the left lane of the highway I always wave when I do that and so I you know the person’s honking behind me but I wave and so I figure everything’s good they probably want to murder me you know but I’m I don’t I’m oblivious to that moment I don’t necessarily I it the social uh Moray that I have broken is not nearly as big of a deal to me as it is to that individual so yeah so I think that that is um my answer to that open-ended question yeah yeah driving what a great sport out there traumatized individuals driving among the traumatized yeah what could go wrong in this scenario right at the end of the day and and also too like you know driving is one of those things too that at least in my experience of road rage I’ve talked about on this episode I’m healing and so I can be vulnerable yeah for sure and you know and it’s it’s not the actual process of driving it’s not the person in front of me it’s not the event there it’s all of this historical stuff that’s added up that has led to this moment of snapping I was so fragile to this moment that I broke in a way that it broke into rage right to be consistent with the language you literally just described your resentment like that is because it is historical right and it is you have been feeding this narrative a little bit every day you just give it a little a little bit of this a little bit of this and it keeps it just powerful enough to where all it takes is a moment of vulnerability or where you just don’t have full capacity of your of your emotions for it to actually blow up yeah I mean the same you know thread not to go into traumiere but that is what trauma is doing as well too it’s creating that Frailty that emotional state and then it erupts in these settings and why am I behaving this way I have no way process of discovery oh it’s rooted in that and that’s why I behave in these sort of ways um but this leads to our transition right like how do we change out of these habits because we have so many things that are reinforcing it right I might form a resentment about somebody hitting me as a benign example and then I turn on the TV and the politician offended me and then I call my mom and I walk and she offends me and then I go home and my wife offends me and all these sort of things and now I have this pool of things that have happened to me that create justification to keep moving forward it’s not just the situation it’s the whole world that’s resenting me and I think what we find at Peaks for sure when individuals arrive you know in a place of addictive behavior and that sort of things that we’re trying to undo um they’re at the peak of this moment of build up like in their lives and it’s moved into the direction of justifying the habitual use of drugs and alcohol well because I was wronged here in all these situations and then over time this resentment build up I’m justified in consuming this because if you were me right and the victim sense of things you might do this too but we can’t live in that way of things so you know what are these potential solutions that you know we can lean into that habituates or recreates uh reflexivity that puts you know oneself into a position to really do the hard thing I think the first hard thing for example like coming into a treatment episode is to go into treatment to acknowledge at least there’s a problem and then give up the thing that’s creating any type of safety or security for you in that moment well what happens a couple days after the phenobarb wears off and that type of thing it’s back into the justification for not to be here uh in a revert you know kind of backwards right so this is where treatment is so supportive of this this is where movement activities a variety of different things are to our benefit to pursue and what we’re talking about here is just because you remove drugs and alcohol and you make that decision it’s nearly the easier decision when it comes to it rehabituating moving into a position where the next time somebody cuts us off it’s not punching the ceiling but like er you know and then it’s a UR into like a dang I just I’m gonna turn the music up a little bit and I’m like I’m just going to cool down I’m going to back off I’m not going to flip the person off this time these incremental things that move us in that direction
so the question is what is the solution for this well the question is what are solutions because okay there’s going to be right a variety of different ones but we have to um like resentment right the easy thing is to say I’m gonna go to treatment yeah yeah the hardest thing is when your therapist says or asks what would it be like to forgive the person well I don’t want to do that’s not why I came here I’m looking for other Solutions but really that’s that’s the hard thing that’s what we have to do in this example at least right yeah it’s I can’t get past the first thing I think that’s really important is really working on developing the awareness that there is a problem and uh and that the person coming into a program or whatever is part of that solution right it isn’t about we got to fix the drivers out there in the world or we have to for sure to fix the red lights and so they all can line up uh and turn green in front of me uh but really the the thing you like figure out your locus of control basically and what what what is within your control and then what are the things outside of that that um need to begin to learn how to let go or accept I guess um so it’s a little honestly it’s a little motivational interviewing of like uh you know again would when somebody in the heat of that moment like we described it it feels like this offense on the road is an eight out of ten even though it’s probably one out of ten it’s probably just Clinton and his big truck cutting you off right obliviously listening to NPR or country music um yeah um but I think uh uh I think we have to become aware of it right and I think I always go to you know when when somebody comes into Peaks for instance and they have uh an opioid addiction like it’s clear what the enemy is and they have people have no doubt that like this is creating major problems for me in my life um so they don’t have to spend as much time being like hey heroin’s really bad well they kind of know like they yeah they’ve been aware of that for quite a while but when when there’s these other nuanced things from a mental health perspective it doesn’t even have to be just anger and resentment like it takes more time to kind of unpack what’s really going on like what we have to turn a lot of lights on if you will to be like hey here are kind of the problems that are that maybe you would like to address so I think that’s the first kind of step in that process yeah man that’s uh it’s a big question I I actually think it’s different for everybody and that’s kind of a cop-out answer but um I think that there is a lot of I don’t know when you were talking I was kind of thinking that it’s this idea that in the end all of the power that you need to change your um to become an emotionally healthy person inside of you like you you possess everything that you need in order to be successful on this journey and so every time that knowing that if you can establish that as like a foundational truth then every time the an individual looks outside of themself for an answer or outside of themselves for an ex as an excuse for why they are responding the way they are you can kind of bring it back to that accountability and be like no no no no remember it’s everything is inside like you have the capacity to be in control right now because that’s inside of you the world around you is chaos and Mayhem and I don’t know maybe pointless maybe not who can say um but it’s that’s not the point the point is what’s going on in sight and here is within our power like this can be still this can be peaceful this can be calm because we can control that so I think that there is um I think mindfulness is really powerful I think meditation movement um I think that spiritual practice is really important can be really powerful over a long period of time um and again just this idea that you have to stop giving your power away like we give our power away left and right you know we’re constantly like the whoever you know when somebody gets really mad at me for cutting them off they gave me a lot of power in that moment like all of a sudden I’m in control of their feelings yeah like and I don’t want that control yeah trust me I’m a therapist I know how dangerous that is yeah like um but like being able to come into this space of like no like take back control of your life like this is stop letting the world control you and actually um we I think we couch it as accountability and I think that that has a sort of like blame shame sort of vibe but really it is about taking your power back so in um and we talked about this before the episode Clinton but two Traditions right in the cringe the Christian tradition I think we’re looking at Matthew 538 somewhere in there turn the other cheek right okay I have turned the other cheek I don’t have I don’t know if that’s the exact Biblical reference but it feels familiar here come the emails seriously teachings [Laughter] um but to turn the other Cheeks is to accept one’s insult or predicament without retort so we have a hardship we form uh uh a feeling about the experience in this case you know maybe somebody slapped us or whatever we’re being asked to turn the cheek um and to not retort and to be open more than anything to the fact that we might be slapped again right I think is what it’s what it’s taken away here but to also couch it in sort of stoic language as well too the stoics were big that nature is a causal feature of the universe and it’s a good thing but we are not in control of it we are not in control of our surroundings and so the only way to really apply judgment to a situation like being slapped in stoicism would be to say that you were in control of the situation in the first place we can only form a judgment around something we were in control of if somebody is hitting us or attacking us or cutting us off or sliding us on Twitter like whatever the case is what is our control over that moment or I mean not them yeah right absolutely and I and I think if we I think what’s fascinating about a concept like resentment and anger is we know that the solution is not external it’s internal we sense and we experience that yet we participate in it wholeheartedly and don’t move in the direction of positivity even though these great Traditions spiritual or otherwise have for centuries given us opportunities uh to find a pathway forward and that pathway forward is not the easy thing it is not the easy option it is the giving up of the ability to actually resent anything whatsoever and that’s probably going to be couch I’m going to go out on a limb here in any philosophical religious spiritual tradition we are not allowed to do the easy thing and continue in our misery and the suffering that comes from something like resentment and anger absolutely no I think that was really really well said I feel like there was a mic drop moment absolutely yeah well we’re not ending it there yet so oh but I think that’s um it is a very hard thing to do what is really the easiest thing which is to just not hold a judgment or hold a grudge you know to be able to just sort of like Let Go and Let Live you know that is we are told that that is cowardice that that is that we are doing something wrong that we’re not standing up for ourselves that we’re not um we’re not a strong person that we are um being controlled that we are being victims and it’s actually the opposite of that like there’s a level of irony to this whole thing that is really really interesting and um it really reminds me of like Viktor Frankl right and his this idea that the only thing you really have control over is your attitude towards the situation and it’s not necessarily about anger and resentment it’s about Hope and sorrow you know and to to have like true genuine Faith and Hope in a situation requires you to let go of the things that you can’t control and solely focus on your your own experience and the things that you do have control over so I thought it was really well said yeah and and to Victor Frankel’s point and to your point there as well too what he’s stating right is I I have the opportunity to control like my mental state in controlling my mental state it will not change the situation I was in he was in uh Nazi concentration camp hard to get out of that but within that he could control himself within that environment and I think outside inside that environment he carried that forward in a way that was meaningful in giving back in a huge way to the world society but to the to the point here you know it feels easy to opt out of doing the hard thing and moving away from resentment and anger and that type of thing so I’m curious this is kind of just a big question for you guys in sir clinical wherever it matters here but do you guys think that our current Society nurtures this path toward habituating these positive responses or are we in a society that does the opposite of that I mean I assume that’s not a rhetorical question but it feels rhetorical yeah like I said it up rhetorically yeah it’s rhetorical to me but but I’m just one human in this big world trying to control my resentment so you know I think I may have talked about this once and I kind of butcher the story I’m sure but you know Desmond Tutu’s book talking about the end of Apartheid in South Africa and the atrocities uh that occurred during that and then um like when Nelson and Mandela was put into power and they ended apartheid they had a Treme like just a huge amount of people that had uh unfathomable uh atrocities had been uh put upon the people of South Africa right and um and what Nelson Mandela and others figured out is that um if we try all these people and send them all to prison like it’s going to just create more chaos and actually fan the Flames of anger and resentment and and and divisiveness and so what they did um as a collective and as a nation they had they would bring in people that uh had committed these atrocities and had them confessed to everything they did in the court and then the court said you’re forgiven and then moved on and like power was like it created this really interesting Dynamic of like it showed that a culture like a society can do it a society can say we’re going to choose not to live in anger and resentment we’re going to choose that now obviously that can’t be the case all the time there’s a lot of complications and all that but like sure if that can be done in the in the face as an entire nation in the face of a apartheid like that’s I don’t know it seems like we could head in that direction But to answer your rhetorical question like of course like we are in the most divisive time in my life um you know that’s where I full stop yeah no I think you’re uh I actually think that it is I’m gonna use this term human nature Loosely um not philosophically so I know that you had like 18 definitions for it but uh I think that it is actually our default setting is to forgive our default setting is to have Grace for people to give them the space to be um I think that it’s an easier way of living I think that it’s a more uh peaceful way of living I think like internally peaceful I think that it is when you talk about like wellness and self-care and when you talk about happiness and prosperity usually it’s somebody who’s on that path on the path of Grace and uh and is able to sort of see the world for what it is and allow it enough space to be imperfect um culturally I think particularly in Western and American culture we we go Old Testament with our belief system and we have this eye for an eye we’ll sort of need like that we have to have retribution for whatever Injustice was done to us that means I am justified in doing the exact same amount to this other person like I need what my job is to cause the same amount of pain and anger or the same amount of distress in their life that I experienced in mine and that is a really um unhappy way to live and it is uh it keeps people trapped in trauma it keeps people reinforcing and living in these resentments because it allows you to keep energy flowing into that to those old stories into those old beliefs um and it never allows you to actually break free I mean there’s shackles as far as I’m concerned like it is it is really uh yeah it’s not great and I think the more we are the more divisive we’ve become over the last several years and um I think we get further and further away from what I would what I would identify as like actual happiness yeah the and you know I think it was All Quiet on the Western Front that’s what I yeah challenge you to watch recently and it’s uh you know World War One movie that is on the side of the German soldiers so this is pre-nazism of course in World War One um sometimes those gets conflated in in the world that like all wars were the same in the all people driving it but what was powerful about that movie for me was I’m sitting on the front lines with German soldiers yes they cause the word yes there is this sort of retributive justice that should be taking place but very quickly within it my experience was and maybe it was yours Jason that like these are people and there is this higher sort of political thing going on that’s driving the war but these people on the front lines and this is you know Sebastian younger talks about it too in the Afghan war and so forth like even American soldiers aren’t fighting for like who’s in power at the time and I’m fighting on behalf of the you know America they’re fighting for each other because they’re trying to survive a pretty hard situation they’ve found themselves in and so that’s the thing that carries them through not the politics or the stories or the rhetoric that’s going on uh throughout the world and that was my appreciation of the film but then the film comes out and then all of this you know sort of negativity comes around it of like oh we’re just reinforcing these terrible behaviors that took place in in sympathizing and empathizing with these people who cause such atrocities in the world and like yeah to the retributive sense of things I get where the attitude comes from but it was easier for me watching the movie just to start forgiving people and to think like these were just people put into a situation and in the beginning of the movie like you know they go into it they’re not trying to fight for anything other than like a plot they think they’re going into something exciting yeah and then they get there and find out it’s pretty detrimental and unforgiving and they lose all their friends in the process uh and so that’s a journey of empathy for me but the world wants to say something about well they caused it and they started it so we’re just going to hold on to that resentment and we’re not going to allow sympathy for this you know situation and so it is rhetorical to me in that sense of things that this is generally what we do as a society we don’t find time for that forgiveness and to move forward and move beyond the situation even though we have great exceptional people like Victor Frankl that have turned around and done just that and living in the most dire hardship you know type situations coming out on the other side and finding it within their heart and mind to find forgiveness for individuals to do the absolute challenging thing I mean I Victor Frankel is like one of the most powerful figures because I it’s hard to think of a tougher thing to go through than what he went through and he was able to find it and if he can find it why can’t we find it right and so easy route so likely what Society is providing and I think that’s where we get hit within treatment episodes now I’ve arrived at Peaks you guys help people right now fix it right like we’re gonna do the easy thing we’re somehow gonna sprinkle the cognitive behavioral therapy the DBT or whatever on to you I think what that does in its biggest way is provide that awareness that you were talking about earlier but the hardest thing you’re going to do after that is take those tools and actually go out into the world and pursue them one step at a time because we’re not going to go from awareness to Healing you know overnight but it seems like the happy life the fulfilled life the purpose-driven life is something that invites difficult situations in and one thing I think about is like in college I would go to ratemyprofessor.com which is blasting all these you know poor tenured professors out there but at the end of the day I was choosing the two star professors why because I felt like they were going to challenge me more you know especially in the school of philosophy it’s a Humanities credit some people just need to do a Humanities credit and I they think okay I’m going to do you know philosophy of Ethics or whatever and that’s going to be an easy a and I’m going to get out and then they get the hard ass professors like you’re in an ethics course and you’re going to take it seriously and we’re not doing benign you know papers here and I’m going to give you a c if you give me this will they get to see and they get pissed and they write that to me it was like I want to do the hard thing I wanted to learn philosophy I wanted to expand my mind and my opportunity why not I was in that sort of situation and so to me it makes sense that you know in my running marathons running a business working every day with you guys like this is hard [ ] uh at the end of the day working in treatment and this isn’t to like be a victim of it it’s it’s rewarding work it doesn’t lead to victimhood but it is [ ] challenging work absolutely um each and every day and it and I think our general experiences right we share these company-wide emails where we have success stories we also have non-success stories but within those sex success stories it’s really invigorating and empowering it reinforces What We Do It shows us why we’re doing the hard thing at the end of the day as opposed to you know I don’t want to undermine any job out there so I’ll stop there but do you guys sense that you know that the hardest part is the most rewarding is the most purpose-filled thing yeah
always like I think that’s what we’ve built our entire program on this is doing the hard thing like we ask our clients to do hard things yeah we ask our staff to do hard things yeah um is it it’s what makes us excellent I think and in a way too that’s what makes recovery so rewarding because it was [ ] hard absolutely I mean in this field like being being a therapist like I mean I I’ll tell people that I feel like I went to grad school to learn how to not judge people it is the hardest thing to not walk into a situation with judgment or if you do to identify that you have judgment look inside figure out why work through that compartmentalize that and then show back up again in a way where you can see and meet the individual for who and what they are and have an actual unconditional acceptance of that human being it is tough because there are some there are some wounded people out there and the more wounded the the harder it can be to find that connection um but yeah I mean like what else are we here for like it just seems like everything else seems kind of I don’t know just like whatever I this seems pretty powerful and it’s um yeah I mean it just and it never stops you know it never stops and for all the viewers out there I think this is a as we kind of take it out here this is a Common Thread in the experiences right when you know going I’ve talked about on this episode Jason participated in you know you sent me to do the trauma where July of 2019. yeah I’m 36 years old I believe at that 35 years old at that time and I was not a runner at that moment I was in any of those things it took 30 another year even 36 years to discover running as a benefit for like my life uh in that regard and so I was going to the gym originally and before I figured out you could run anywhere and stepping on the treadmill for the first time but just stepping into a gym when you feel shame when you feel insecure when you feel like I’m fat I’m unworthy this is never going to work um that self-doubt Creeps in almost immediately and I step on that machine for the first time you know 11 miles per hour or whatever you know right now feels like a walk but at that time I was exhausted and I felt [ ] stupid doing it you know excuse my language to the audience out there but I think it just reinforces how we commonly experience growth the first time we step into unfamiliar territory I’m going to stop presenting people today feel stupid about that I’m losing some I’m giving up something right in the process and I just want to acknowledge that feeling because we’re not talking about here at Peaks anything other than doing something that is absolutely challenging and difficult it will be hard it will be painful both mentally and physically but the promise at the end of it right is that if you put that foot forward you’re going to incrementally feel better in time to the point where now at 38 and a half years old wherever I’m at in this age framework right I’m running the best that I’ve ever done but also within that I’m pushing myself to not just be in this sort of place of mediocrity in the way that I consider my running experience I’m constantly pushing myself and to go from an eight minute mile to a seven to a 6 30 mile is painful and everything in my body in my mind at times is saying don’t do it shut it down go upstairs eat you know do anything other than you’re doing and I think that resonates for me and something I wanted to share with the audience and see if you guys have any other feedback or you know things you want to share about you know maybe even the journey that you’re on spiritually Jason as well too about the difficulty of just taking that first step forward and then continuing because it’s not easy yeah it is I mean I think Brandon I think I mean it’s interesting that we’ve taken resentment and anger and like pivoted to like uh this part and I think you know I I feel like I’m certainly on a spiritual journey and we’ve alluded to it the last couple weeks on here but I think um I think Peaks is on this a little bit too is we’re really trying to you know even continue to round out what we’re doing what we’re offering clients and and since we are asking them to do really hard things like they they need the support I think of having a good basis in kind of like what is the meaning of all this and what’s what’s uh what is my place in the world and in in what are my spiritual values and beliefs and what does my existence mean and all those sorts of things but like these things matter how do I find this meaning and purpose and um so I feel like I’m on a little bit of a parallel journey in in that way as well as um I continue to explore this through my own middle age actually so um yeah in the later stages of middle age yeah yeah yeah water Middle Ages yeah elderly middle age yeah now I I think um you know I had a uh an instructor it was I was taking a Buddhist philosophy class like in my a million years ago and I was doing my bachelor’s in New York and it was um one she said something to me that was so that has always stuck with me and uh she said something to the class rather she just said every any time that you were doing something because of a principle you should probably stop principles are rigid principles are void of context most of the time and they will um typically lead to suffering she said don’t live with principles live with purpose and because purpose has that there’s this connection piece right like you have you’re connected to the world around you and it can be and it’s fluid and it changes and it has room to sort of expand and contract and um I think that that it’s probably the only thing I remember from actually the first year of college but it was really powerful and um I think that it has been it’s something that I still uh kind of a mantra that I still tell myself and something that I still really live by I think um you know once you start forgiving I will say this it does get easier you know like once you can let go some of those big resentments um and especially the resentments that you have towards yourself those are those are tough but once you can start having that level of forgiveness it it gets a lot easier and um yeah you won’t ever go back yeah I think about I want to make sure I get his name right here the the Rich Roll podcast the reason I’m pointing it out is you know one he’s in recovery and I love that about his journey and his podcast but two his whole podcast is dedicated to like what we’re talking about here and I just wanted to bring that to the viewers because right check it out it’s an amazing podcast about these topics that we’re talking about how to motivate bringing you know leaders from all over the world athletes from all over and all these people have accomplished a tremendous things you will hear in every single story that it was difficult it was painful it was the pain cave it was the most impossible thing I thought I was doing in the very beginning moments of it and Mel Robbins one of the guests on it I love her energy just the tenacity uh and that she brings is is really great but she has a sort of a statement that she tells herself in the moment of hardship the thing that I am going through right now is preparing me for something in the future I don’t know what that is I don’t know how it’s going to come about I don’t know what that looks like but right now this is the moment and I’m live with him and hold on to it because it’s preparing me for this next thing and I think for me and what we go through kind of at work especially recently and all these types of things it’s it’s not something I’ve always been aware of or been telling myself but it’s been really powerful and these anecdotes I think can be really powerful when we’re struggling and going through things as a process and so to that point the more we read the more we listen the moment we open our hearts and Minds to Solutions and strategies of all the people who’ve gone through things that we seemingly look at and say wow it looks easy for them it started with a hardship uh in that regard and so I think incorporating that into this is a is a really big part of getting well whether it’s out of resentment and anger trauma or whatever’s going on right we need people to support us and show us that there’s a path forward in a world in which sometimes it’s easy to sit down and commiserate so yeah absolutely all right well with that then folks we’re going to take it out yeah two mic drops I’m not gonna pass this one up I just want to thank everybody again for joining us today on the special episode of Finding Peaks always my favorite co-host guest just a guest just guests on here at the end of the day I love hanging out with you guys um I this is always just a reprieve sometimes from the intensity of our work environment absolutely it’s nice to come on here and and just chat and roll through things in an authentic way and not have to you know fight you know people about it in the process um and to the viewers out there as well too it’s also reprieved just to come in here and talk to you and we hope that we’ve delivered something special today in regards to resentment and anger as silly as that sounds solutions for it uh at the end of the day but signing off here Brandon Burns chief executive officer for Peaks recovery centers find us on the tick tocks the Facebook the twitters all of our accounts are more positive than all the other accounts on there so check us out we’ll put up some quotes these positive things to help people forward but also opportunities to um see what we’re doing what we got going on future podcasts these types of things and uh I think it’s information at findingpeaks.com
ideas all those things send them to us that’s where these episodes come from resentment anger it’s about you the viewers at the end of the day appreciate you so much until next time

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Episode 97Exploring Sober Living and Industry EvolutionWatch Nowhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Mw2Ky6V1ioListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Chris Burns brings on two professionals in the industry; Bryce Givens, founder of Elevate Recovery Homes, and Kyle Vandongen, founder of Sopherson Sober Living. Together they share their “why”, purpose, passion, and mission in their recovery journey and what brought them to this point. Kyle shares personal experiences from his time at Peaks Recovery Centers and how they shape him today.

Talking Points1. Introduction to Kyle and Bryce 2. Addressing the “why” 3. Kyle’s experience at Peaks 4. Sober living structure 5. Evolving in the industry 6. Tensions in the industry 7. Final thoughts Quotes

“My “why” is really to A, be of service but to help people find and maximize their potential and self-actualize. That’s what it is, to help people reach their full potential and be the best version of themselves; that’s what I’m here to do. ”– Bryce Givens – Founder: Elevate Recovery Homes

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -97- Transcriptspeople welcome to another amazing episode of Finding Peaks Yours Truly president and founder Chris Burns more specifically and for our guests today just a big recovery cheerleader so let’s go for that I am so excited today to get this show going we got Bryce Givens from Elevate sober home what up let’s go we got Kyle Van dongen I’m from sofferson sober living in the house both executive directors and founders of both of those operations and more specifically Kyle is a Peaks recovery alumni let’s go and we were talking before the show on just how different um the process was back then how different we were you know we were doing um Sober Living homes with some PHP and IOP and driving people into the center and um Kyle is a great Testament of what recovery can do as well as Bryce but before we get this show going I just wanted to pull up a picture for the viewers if possible there it is beautiful so how long ago is that Kyle that would be so September of 2015. okay so I’m coming up on eight years of sobriety at the end of this month actually I showed this picture to our case manager before I came over here they’re like that’s not Kyle and they zoomed in I said that’s Kyle yeah but that just shows you I mean that was on Kyle’s graduation you’d been there what six months yep yeah and that’s his therapist Robert Johnson who’s still working in the field still an awesome professional and human just wanted to bring that up and grateful to have you guys on the show today yeah thanks for having us thank you very much this is where I bring on Amazing professionals uh but for me even better humans I had a great opportunity to connect with you guys over the winter Symposium I really enjoyed the authenticity and the vulnerability that you all bring I just couldn’t wait to bring you guys on the show these guys are doing tremendous things in the community up in Denver getting people integrated into the community by way of just moving our bodies and connecting just really infectious just some level of care that you guys are getting excited about and moving through and just grateful to be a small part of that and so without further Ado let’s get into it um Kyle what is um I know pieces of it most certainly but what what is your why why do you do what you do today in your recovery yeah that’s a great question um you’re very well spoken you’re a good host um I mean I think it’s without making a super long drawn out answer why is like just to help guys that were in the same situation I was in right like I saw the value that it brought to my life um I saw a small like Niche that I could get into um that I felt I was good at and I just want to give back that’s it um I want to show others that it’s possible it’s possible through different means as well it’s not like a one-size-fits-all program um brings me uh you know tremendous level of fulfillment yeah um makes me feel good about myself it helps my recovery my sobriety um I would say like my why is just to give back what was given to me um and enjoy my life enjoy my recovery yeah that’s cool man I remember when we used to hang out you know nearly eight years ago uh and we used to talk a lot about this recovery process and it being directly proportionate to our ability to give it away yeah and even though I don’t I’m not an active member of the 12-step Community anymore and I still walk with that to a degree and I love what you’re doing at soprison with respect to showing people all of the ways in all of the pathways because I think what that highlights for the individual who’s suffering specifically from shame is it allows them to see themselves within your program and find a home in that and I think that’s really really cool and you come by this really honestly you have a story of um before you came to Peaks right what did that look like uh what what do you mean specifically like what what I was doing before I got to peace yeah like you had you had some struggles with finding recovery um I went through Peaks was probably Last Resort um it was my six six or seventh time yeah um in the the previous right before I had come to Peaks when I was at another facility uh Robert Jocelyn who was my counselor two times in a row thank God for him yeah he had told me that I needed to go somewhere long term and it was before Peaks existed Red Rocks didn’t exist these six months are these longer term treatment centers at that time um so he tried to get me to go out to Prescott and I just wasn’t willing at the time I was like that’s terrifying I don’t want to commit to something that long um so I struggled figuring out what my recovery looked like what was going to work best for me and uh prior coming to Peaks um I hit that low where when I checked into treatment that last time I just threw up the you know threw on the towel and just told somebody else to tell me what to do yeah um and just kind of gave into the process and just said just send me somewhere and yeah Peaks is where I landed yeah it’s cool man it’s a really really cool recovery story and although Peaks and the relationships we have with our clients has certainly changed today there’s a level of that care that you’re bringing into the community today which is really really cool and you know I always say I had I had Nick on here a handful of weeks ago it’s a goal is like a professional and your why speaks to it it’s like man if I could help one person man you’ve helped like a hundred so let’s go it’s so cool for sure I love how this thing moves downhill in a really infectious and intentional way yeah it does um and really that why speaks to it all man is is my recovery is directly proportionate to my ability to give it away and it really satiates the soul to be able to give this stuff back well I think it’s like a product of your environment as well like going through as many treatment facilities as I did and then you know last one being Peaks and seeing what you guys did um that kind of rubs off on you yeah and you see how your life looks or how your house manager lives look and uh you want that yeah and you see what you’re doing for others and it’s like I can do this I’m I’m him right like we all came from the the same story the same background um it gives you that hope of like cool I have something to offer finally right yeah that purpose when you got that purpose it can be really directionally driven yeah yeah it’s really cool to see man just watching you and out on social media doing your videos just really in Northern Colorado just hyping up the recovery Community it’s like every time I see that man it just warms my heart I appreciate it appreciate you checking in so grateful to have you here Bryce what’s up man Ultras physical stuff going on he’s out in the community doing stuff with Elevate recovery homes before we get to that what’s your why my why similar to what your guys’s why is is you know really to a b of service but to really help people find and maximize their potential and self-actualize um simply put yeah that’s what it is help people reach their full potential be the best versions of themselves that they can be that’s what I’m here to do I love that too because in that statement like so simply put it’s like everybody has greatness living inside totally you know and I’m gonna help you find it for you you don’t need to change you exactly we just need to get back to that Center yeah that’s it man find yourself reconnect with yourself and and you know really dig deep and that’s why I resonate with Ultras and hard physically challenging things is because it’s like you know when you’re in that suffer Fest you’re in that zone and you’re um you know you’re digging deep like the only person that you can rely on is you me myself and I yeah to get through it and so just helping people find that in whatever Arena that is for them you know or or just giving them a platform to really um you know encourage them to look deeper is what I want to try to do yeah and it really does too it’s like in some of those individual sports in recovery really have this opportunity to prop people up and show them how valuable in a way that they are and how much they can actually accomplish totally um because I think sometimes as humans we really sell ourselves short and most certainly when we’re suffering from a mental illness I’ll be a depression anxiety whatever it is we oftentimes don’t believe in ourselves totally and so somebody like you showing up and saying hey we’ve done these things and also look at where I’ve been yeah you know um where have you been so for me um you know I’ve been a lot of places not a lot of things but for me I found myself getting into recovery not by choice like many of us um you know I I ended up getting into some legal trouble and was sentenced to a Therapeutic Community and I went to Pier One which was a very militaristic behavioral modification rehab very familiar saved my life yeah saved my life one of our best therapists one of my favorite humans on Earth Bonita Wilder went to here yeah it was a pure I don’t know if it’s a women’s program The Haven yeah yeah she talked about doing the monad monad yeah man that’s crazy so they’re like I mean it was it was wild going there I had gone to rehab you know and been relapsing for the better part of a decade or half a decade or so finally went there and uh it gave me some time to really separate myself and really you know talk about going inward doing some introspection and learning who I was and what I was all about and learning about my psychology and how to reframe my thoughts and practicing all the stuff that you know the modalities that are practiced today in a lot of treatment centers CBT DBT you know ssic and seeking safety and all these things around other people who had been experiencing these same things and I mean it was really intensive yeah and so for me that’s where it kind of really shifted my mentality that was the start of my recovery Journey you know it still took a few years for me to handle the the legal ramifications of my actions and my behavior so um you know that was really my recovery process and then you know I had to do some time in prison and so I got out of prison and I was working at a youth baseball facility that I still am very close with today and just trying to you know give back and and work around kids and be in athletics but the recovery industry kept like drawing me back in um and I felt that I was you know I resonated with that and resonated with people in recovery and so that’s kind of what led me down this path is like well I’ve always been an athlete you know I grew up the son of a professional athlete and I always aspired to play professional sports and what sports did you play I played football okay cool yeah played up at CU sko Buffs yeah offensive tackle oh yeah so you were bigger I was bigger much bigger they’re feeding you up there yeah man it was great yeah so I played up there there and through my football career away but I’m really excited for what’s happening in Boulder you know bringing coach Prime up there I can’t wait I’m going to the Black Gold game nice all right Matt came up to me Marsha and he’s like I got six tickets nice that’s awesome we’ll have to go to a game together yeah absolutely I will for sure be at the Arizona uh yeah sweet wow I didn’t know that it’s really cool so that’s kind of I’ve always had this like you know mentality that’s geared towards competition and Athletics and um you know for me it’s like I didn’t get into Triathlon or an ultra endurance stuff until really I was you know I’m now about five years into recovery and and right getting out of prison uh I wanted to find something challenging that I could kind of dedicate some time and energy and effort to and and so for me it was Iron Man um so I I got into Iron Man and went you know balls deep yeah and you know that was right around the covid time so I’d train for two years right and like I didn’t even get to do my first race until two years after I started so I was like man this is a drag yeah crazy like 20 hour plus weeks and and whatnot but finally got some Iron Man’s under my belt and uh I was fortunate to go to the Iron Man World Championships in St George last year which was just like next level man it was so cool but just finding that stuff like finding the the mentality um of like persevering right is like was so relatable to like me and my recovery and like I want to be able to share that with other people yeah yeah and that’s really cool and I appreciate you being so honest it’s an open in here because I I love when the viewers can see somebody like college football player yeah all there yeah right moving through it great looking guy in the community doing it you know what I mean like I think it’s important to do this because I think sometimes our viewers unfortunately conceptualize Addiction in a much different way totally absolutely you know I think your both of your stories in a way are so powerful um and dynamic and so it makes a lot of sense about your why and what you guys are doing um that’s cool yeah yeah man the the Denver Community is lucky to have you guys a part of that we’re super lucky I mean not to have met each other and really kind of started our businesses right around the same time that we that we did and um you know being of the same age and having a lot of the same values and interests and likes and being able to kind of like grow our businesses alongside each other and really the reception within the whole community of Denver has been like just wild because it’s like so tight-knit and close and like collaborative man we’ve just been super blessed like super fortunate yeah I do love that about Denver for sure it really is like kind of everybody kind of working together totally it doesn’t feel super competitive yeah I mean there’s some out there right sure um the ones that matter we’re working with here yeah it’s awesome yeah and I love and I may have said it on the front end but with the offer all Pathways sober livings right or residential recovery homes and I think that’s really really cool and it kind of leads into my next question is is all Pathways means hey we’re trauma informed hey we’re here to meet you where you’re at and Define a path for your recovery that could potentially fit you like a glove and then you might even get excited about it yeah exactly and so how is that Kyle how’s that being received do you feel like in that Community because it is it is an inpatient treatment it’s not ex it is extended care in a way but it’s it’s structured sober living and how is that new energy being received um I mean it’s incredible yeah and you can see that because the more and more places that are opening up are starting to follow that structure right like I think gone are the times of just the traditional 12-step based programs again it’s it’s very evident as new places open up that that’s not what they’re geared towards which again the ones that exist that are already out there are crushing it they’re killing it right that’s their space and if we need to refer outwards we do um but I can’t tell you the amount of guys that come into our houses and I know he can attest to this who are like dude I’ve tried everything like I’ve been to however many different 12-step programs it might be a different program or a different house but it’s the same structure right um we have guys come up to us all the time they’re just really finding the passion that they want to find yeah in recovery because we’re allowing them to find it on their own right I’m not sitting there telling them you need to do a b c and d to stay sober it’s like hey these are the things we offer let’s figure out which ones you like right and then structure that around you and then allow them to to build off of that yeah and really make the decision for themselves I tell every guy that calls me on the phone um you know I want you coming in working a program of recovery because you want to right not because you’re being told to yeah and in doing so we’re creating a space where guys are making the decisions for themselves and we don’t have to you know hold their hand through it or make sure that they’re doing yeah specific things yeah it’s so cool that you all are willing to be like Curious with somebody and sit with them and it’s actually much different than what people would believe it’s actually the much easier approach to be punitive in hand-holding and kind of parenting over the process can be really really difficult yeah Although our field had really called for that style for a plethora of years coming off the backs in 1935 it was just a much different generational perspective and I think in the last handful of years we’ve really been able to shift that model and it’s so cool to hear that you guys are doing it in your level of care and people are seeing it I mean that’s amazing it’s amazing what have you seen over at Elevate as far as because we were talking before the show and um you know you talked you know very candidly about not how you were opposed to 12 steps but why you made a decision to not engage in that path totally I mean what I’ve seen um really it comes down to obviously I mean Johann hari’s rat park right you’re talking about connection connections everything so how can we encourage people to commune more and connect more on a real personal Humane level and so that’s what we’ve really tried to do is just develop a culture that does that and so including the the likes and the hobbies and the interests and the passions and the um the fun part of life around recovery and then include everybody and say hey look you don’t have to come to our Friday Saturday or Sunday workouts in the gym you can go to the climbing gym you can go on the hike so you can go climb mountains you can go biking you can do fishing whatever it is right and it’s it’s finding Community yeah and so for me it was like the all Pathways approach was like it doesn’t have to be this black or white thing it can be open-ended to whatever you want it to be as long as you’re developing those the the skill sets and the tools that are going to get you to where you need to go or where you want to go yeah that’s really the most important thing and so like those values and like the behaviors and the the foundational principles of like living a lifestyle of recovery are the things that are core to what we’re doing but all the other stuff is just like that’s the fun yeah so like how can we include more fun into recovery excuse me into recovery and um yeah just just let people choose their own path man yeah and that’s what’s been sucked out of the room of the church basement yeah right exactly unfortunately and I listen I used to go I great humans yeah great yeah sure that I owe a a vast majority of my recovery too but I think today um we want to ensure that everybody gets to see themselves under our big tent yeah you know and um I want everybody to feel a part of and what you guys do so well um whether seeing it or not is you allow the traumatized individual who’s already hyper Vigilant to maybe settle and get safe in their home and they’re going to be living with you for months and that was something that was really important to me back in Peaks when people lived for a long time was to know that they’re cared for and that they have a home and you guys do that really really well which I think is um pushing up against the status quo of the industry which I think is really really important so I appreciate that totally I think you said something important though just as far you know speaking on like different Generations everything should evolve yeah right like I understand the saying like if it’s not broke don’t fix it right right but if there’s new ways to do something that might be better or open the possibility to to new people yeah why not try right like isn’t that what we should be doing as a society anyway it’s just continuing to evolve and grow and change things yeah um but yeah he knocked out of the park connection Community yeah fun let’s just enjoy our lives right yeah like let’s not be bogged down by like you need to do these things every single day in or blah blah right like right like we get to yeah we get to yeah that would argue that’s why you guys and I have no idea what your story looked like but I would argue that’s why you struggled in those first few places was because you come in it’s a box over your head you can’t see yourself in it you’re like I’m an athlete I like to do fun stuff and move around and move my body they’re like sit in the chair every day you know it’s just I gotta go right yeah you know so it makes a lot of sense I find myself often times for clients and folks that have called Peaks home I find myself apologizing for the industry in a way because there has been such a dramatic overhaul with the way that we approach people um so I I say a lot of that probably has to do more with the industry and trying to figure its way out totally than anything else yeah and I think that’s part of like redefining and changing that stigma right because there is that stigma attached to it even with people within the industry and so it’s like how are we refining how are we constantly changing this and improving this and so totally agree with you on that yeah yeah and I love that we can sit here too as providers and and looking for opportunities for growth yeah I mean I was in group this morning and this young man shared with me and he said man this place is absolutely amazing we’ve got a couple staff members out with covet and so the the transition from group to group has been a little bit off and he’s like man everything’s nice but if I don’t want to have to share my timeline today again I’m like fair enough you know I can hear that and what I hear is hey the next time we have this up with this covid situation which we will walk through and we walk through it a plethora of times we can get a little bit more Curious on how to make sure that that makes sense for everybody totally you know um so I I think we if when we come into this with a bit of humility we have the opportunity to exercise our greatness yeah which is really really cool and that the other question I wanted to move into and you guys kind of answered it a little bit is um what’s missing today from what you all see from the level of care of which you operate out of and what are you guys doing to change that even though you probably answered a portion of that already do you want to start or you want me to start um I mean whoever starts is going to answer it you you go and I’ll piggyback off you all right so what I see is we talk about community and connection and we talk about um there’s this I mean it’s not anything new but peer coaching yeah right and connect being able to connect with somebody um there’s a so much dysregulation in that you know part of the industry and so for me personally what we’re doing um and what we started over at True North so I opened up an outpatient treatment center called true north Recovery Services and we’re really focusing on addressing compliance continuing education progression supervision not just like you know there’s some of these organizations who just like Bill and like do this stuff and it’s like what are we doing what are we doing right yeah so it’s like how can we improve outcomes and how can we measure this stuff and how can we really connect with people on a deeper level because it’s like there’s that whole clinical aspect right but then like the personal aspect like how can we really start to like track and measure this stuff so that it’s beneficial for all parties so that a high tide raises All Ships yeah um you know and so for me that’s kind of where I’m at is like what can we do as an organization that can help raise the standard that I can say like no like we’re not gonna We’re not gonna play this game we’re not going to do this like this is [ __ ] and ultimately at the end of the day it’s only going to hurt us and the clients because everybody gets lumped in right yeah and so um for me that’s I think the biggest the biggest thing that we’re seeing and the biggest thing that I’m really focusing on right now is like how can we help improve the industry in the sense because like lived experience is important and people resonate with that and connect and so they want to hear our stories all of us you know what I mean but at the same time there has to be some clear-cut regulation and rules and and a standard that’s set higher so we can improve outcomes yeah especially at that level yeah totally here’s it’s so true you kind of feel the same way yeah I mean I yeah I’m right on board with that um obviously with the peer services that we’ve been rolling out and have been doing uh this is where like the collaborative part comes in really well because we can follow the standards of what True North is doing um to make sure that we’re following the correct guidelines because again like as treatment has always been it’s kind of like the wild west right there’s a lot of gray areas out there and people can kind of pick and choose and abuse a lot of things um and it’s great to be you know partnered with individuals who are trying to do things correctly yeah you know they have the the right kind of morals and ethics um and do so like follow that path um peer Services is huge right now yeah I think there’s a lot to be said about that there’s a reason why you know and let’s let’s talk about AAA yeah isn’t a sponsor right just another peer right yeah like we’re walking that we’ve all been through that um so it’s incredibly beneficial but I also think uh something that that’s cool is the whole stigma between like I feel like there’s a lot of sober livings back in the day when there was like a relapse or something yeah it was very much just like all right yeah why right why are we punishing that individual exactly they need help yeah and what’s going to best suit their needs right if that means giving them another opportunity within the house then they didn’t cause harm anywhere they didn’t put others at Danger let’s kill them with kindness yeah right like let’s come from a place of compassion and like just trying to change the structure of of our sober livings and make sure that we’re trying to treat each individual as best as possible and not kind of again lump them into this like oh you relapse you’re gone you did this you’re going like just trying to help them in a better way that in the past maybe wasn’t dealt with correctly sure or didn’t feel like it was available right for you guys you know because of the pressure of the industry right you guys bring up just some tremendous points like if you guys as you guys continue to develop and measure outcomes at that level of care outpatient and or structured sober living I mean that Buck’s the status quo so hard totally something at Peaks that we’ve engaged with over the last handful of years is really having a third party come in and say hey this is what it is right and not only doing that being transparent to the consumer and being one of only I think 10 or 20 treatment programs out there who’s not a non-profit who posts that stuff online all right we want people to see we want people to get answers honesty the same thing that we’re trying to practice you know with ourselves and encourage our members to do yeah honesty and transparency that’s so important yeah that’s awesome yeah and I love what you said to Kyle about this opportunity we have much different than the old culture and shoot up we’re part of it at Peaks like this is unsafe you got to go you know where do you want to go um and now we have this opportunity and I was in when it first started a few years back I was like I don’t know about this but you’ll watch somebody who uses a coping mechanism because they’re scared or they’re anxious or they’re depressed and they know they probably made a mistake and they maybe should have checked in and done this thing when you watch them not get their Primal needs ripped from them yeah and you watch them be loved on I think you guys have seen this and you watch them resettle I mean we have folks in long-term recovery who are great examples of that and I think you all can attest to that as well so I really appreciate you bringing that up because it doesn’t it’s not black and white on that side of things we can really get curious and spend some time it’s a learning experience let them learn the better way to handle it yeah let us teach them yeah for sure I love that stuff well I got one more question all right and since I was just on their talk show and they asked me a really cool question right at the end I got a really cool question for you all and the question they asked me if I could be any player on a football team who would I be and why right right yeah and I said I’d be a cheerleader I love it yeah which was great that’s perfect I was gonna say I’m gonna be a linebacker
if you could be any superhero who would it be and why we’ll start with Kyle that’s easy Spiderman okay Spider-Man because if you if you look at where he came from right like he is like literally your average kid right like nothing special about him he’s you know he might be a bit of a smart ass or something but um his intentions and where he comes from from like a family perspective because of what he’s lost
he wants to do good by his family from the people who had hurt him and he really has that perfect like uh superhero origin story and guess what he’s still a kid and he’s trying to live his life he’s trying to have fun he’s trying to navigate you know the next right thing and I kind of feel the same way especially with building and growing a business like I’m still trying to learn I’m still trying to figure things out right but like I think I share a common a common purpose or a common goal with him is just to help others yeah that’s probably better than my answer so let’s go awesome man yeah I like Spider-Man too I didn’t know I liked him that much I like Spider-Man too and that’s who first came to mind so I can’t say Spider-Man Spider-Man and then I was like because it comes down to like I was like Captain America is pretty tight yeah yeah but I was like Batman is more like up my alley you know kind of like same sort of concept even though he you know well so I’ve been thinking about the the first movie where his parents get killed at the theater right am I remembering that right um I’m not a big superhero guy but if I you know obviously from struggle comes like resilience and uh that’s why I love the concept of the Phoenix right and then you rise out of the ashes um so I’d probably say like Batman yeah and he’s he’s awesome and he’s dope and he has all kinds of like cool gadgets yeah he’s got the whip I swear I saw I don’t know if it was from the first Batman or the second one or whatever it was but the Batman mobile was actually for sale at some auction for just something you gonna pick it up or what no no I’m thinking about Subaru nice which one which which are you gonna get I have no idea yeah I don’t have to get my I release cars so I haven’t told that crash tracks are pretty nice yeah get like a cross track whatever the ones that have the off-road packages because I’m telling you right now there is Subarus higher up on the trailhead than I can oh yeah totally they’ll go anywhere it’s insane and you’ll see like lifted jeeps like how did this thing get up here what a superhero would you be that’s a good question um I never even thought about it for myself um
it’s kind of a tough question it’s a really tough question
I love like Marvel and superheroes yeah yeah that’s right in my alley
I think I would have to go with Superman okay and here’s the reason it has no really heartfelt meaning like you guys have but when I got into recovery in 2008 I showed up and I was just in a tough shape I had two tattoos I had one you know the prototypical armband that you got at 15 that you know doesn’t quite you know we have a tattoo artist in our program I was sharing this morning she’s like I’m like yeah it’s everything they joke about and then I had this really special one right here and it was a Superman logo nice but even better it had a little bit of tribal coming off of it you know so that’s why I’d have to go with the Superman thing and I remember listening to this yeah the three of your viewers are gonna love this I remember when the 50 Cent album came out and he said Isaiah walk around like I got an s on my chest yeah you’re like that’s me that’s me yeah 50. I can write but I can relate to the struggle a lot like you guys and I can relate um in our opportunity in our effort to rejoice in recovery and be bright lights for individuals who can’t see it in their lives and having you guys on the show today was a tremendous opportunity for me for the Peaks team to have alumni on to have Bryce on you guys are doing amazing things in the community I really appreciate your time today looking forward to connecting down the line maybe after we get the facility built we’ll be sending out a huge alumni thing we’re doing a recovery concert on site for the ribbon cutting so we’d love to get sofferson’s Booth up there elevated up there we’re going to have sober AF up there we have a few bands playing we’re gonna be cutting the ribbon just letting people know that there’s a home here in Colorado and you can see yourself inside of it so thank you guys thank you thank you we really appreciate it we love what you got going on and we are I know I can speak for myself but I can also speak for car because we’ve talked about it but like we aspire to uh continually make progress and follow in your footsteps because you’re just out here crushing it and saving lives and changing lives and creating such an impact and so we really look up to you and we appreciate you awesome I really appreciate that you guys it’s just been a pleasure having you guys on and until next time yeah man check us out on your podcast Instagram Facebook um Apple music Spotify Spotify YouTube before the show check us out on there until next time peace thank you

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Episode 96The Key to Leadership SuccessWatch Nowhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq2qygjvIIIListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Brandon Burns brings Jason Friesema on the show to speak with Maeve O’Neill on Dare to Lead and how crucial proper leadership can be in a professional work setting. Maeve shares insight into leadership’s most important aspects and how to properly introduce them into the work environment, While Brandon and Jason explain how these tenants have been implemented within Peaks Recovery Centers.

Talking Points1. Introduction to Maeve 2. The power of leadership 3. Vulnerability in leadership 4. Vulnerability in the workforce 5. Daring leadership 6. “Less than perfect” attitude Quotes

“Culture within an organization is not a coincidence, it takes intentionality, work, vulnerability, openness, honesty, and being a mess, messy, but committed and diligent leadership, and leaders.”– Jason Friesema, Chief Clinical Officer

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -96- Transcripts

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Episode 95Conscious Recovery with TJ WoodwardWatch Nowhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLOf82yGR3kListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Jason Friesema brings on Brandon Burns, Clinton Nicholson, and special guest TJ Woodward, author of Conscious Recovery. Our team breaks down the premise of conscious recovery with TJ while shining light on the effectiveness of these practices. To learn more, check out consciousrecovery.com

Talking Points1. Introduction to TJ 2. Conscious Recovery 3. Holding space 4. Looking at trauma and shame 5. Our team’s experience with Conscious Recovery 6. Where to find TJ and Conscious Recovery Quotes

“The way we work with trauma and the way Conscious Recovery approaches it is what is showing up for you right now, what’s present within you, where is this within your body, can we be present with it? Because with addiction, we’re trying to run from it, and many of us have spent decades, some of us, running from the traumatic experience through addiction, and if we can get a client to be present for 30 seconds and realize, ‘oh wow, I can do that’ that’s where we can actually start to heal the trauma without saying, what happened to you when you were seven.”– TJ Woodward: Conscious Recovery

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -95- Transcriptshello and welcome to another episode of Finding Peaks I’m Jason friesma the host Chief clinical officer Peaks recovery uh joining me from Peaks Brandon Burns CEO of Peaks recovery and this guy I forget his name Clinton something uh CEO of Peaks recovery and we are um just privileged to welcome T.J Woodward from conscious recovery uh LA area I believe um joining us today and we we’ve had the privilege of having TJ in our program for the last two days providing um I don’t think training is the right word if I’m going to be honest with you I I there was some training to it but um I think an experience maybe for our team and so um I guess I just kind of want to start if you TJ if you wouldn’t mind kind of introducing yourself and maybe a little bit of your background and and then we’ll go from there yeah well and today Woodward creator of conscious recovery and conscious recovery is a modality but it really is more of an experience like you said and as a matter of fact we even call what we just did for two days the conscious recovery experience because it’s not a training because we’re not really teaching we’re providing a space for people to actually reconnect deeply with themselves and each other and see what emerges in the room so um that’s that’s what we did the last two days and I just want to like out right out of the gate say I’m super impressed with your team and the depth and you know I go to a lot of treatment programs and I can immediately kind of assess where people are at and you all have created did a very very safe container for your people to be very authentic and open thank you for that thank you absolutely and that’s a wrap thanks for coming
[Laughter] um but no I really really um I appreciate you honestly um there’s no higher compliment you could pay I think um it is what we work diligently on is um our culture and working through uh disruption at times and and trying to do that in as genuine way as possible and trying to find directionality and and vision for our team and I think um conscious conscious recovery just um like the chatter that I’m hearing from the clinicians like my phone is blowing up and like how are we how can we incorporate uh some of these principles into our curriculum and and it isn’t a 180 turn that’s what’s great it’s it feels like a 10 degree shift like we just have some refining to do which uh I’m I’m really excited to participate in but where did what was conscious recovery born out of like where did it come from well I can I’ll say two things about that one my own personal recovery journey and it’s something I’ve been talking a lot about there were decades I never talked about it and suddenly I find myself talking about being 18 months sober and being suicidal and the Paradigm that I was swimming in if you will sounded something like don’t worry about anything but not drinking you are a miracle go help someone else and I remember thinking but I want to die and there really wasn’t a conversation at that time of what to do with that and I met a woman who literally changed my life her name is Mary Helen and she took me on a journey that I think was a two-fold a twofold journey and that is reclaiming my wholeness and returning to my true nature and also looking at everything that I had started to believe about myself in the world that was preventing me from being truly present with myself so that’s one piece and I also started working in the addiction treatment field in 2008 and I quickly realized that most treatment was looking at symptoms and behaviors without getting down to the root causes in addition to that many clinicians consciously or unconsciously were looking at their clients as damaged or broken in some way so if anything it was like there was this resonance from my own experience of not really addressing the underlying root causes and seeing myself as broken and then coming into the field and seeing that that was kind of the Paradigm so I became really curious about a different point of view and a different approach I know that we share a common love for the word and the concept and the way of being with curiosity yeah so I became very curious about how I could be part of shifting that and offering a different approach so from the get-go like what were some of the barriers that you ran into as far as kind of taking on this new approach or sort of trying to create something that was at the very least outside the box for the time and then also what were some of the Allies that you ran into what were some of the people that actually supported you along the way well I’ll just be fully transparent in 2008 I had to kind of be in the closet with it so I came into the field sort of through the side door my education my degrees are at spirituality spiritual counseling spiritual leadership so I didn’t come in as a trained clinician I came in with 22 years of my own recovery and this work I had done with spirituality and so I came in knowing that I was going to be present with the person in front of me and look for what’s whole within them and look for their perfection I wasn’t really talking with many people about that but one thing that happened early in my work a friend of mine who was a therapist was really struggling with a client and he said can you go sit with her and I remember just sitting with her and looking for the wholeness in her and holding that space we hear that term a lot holding that space and she had all these awarenesses and these breakthroughs and he came to me later and said what did you say to her I had been trying to get her too like his language I’ve been trying to get her and I said well I didn’t say anything I just saw her as a whole and perfect being and he looked like something was short-circuiting and walked away so in the beginning that was a long answer there weren’t a lot of allies but what I discovered is so many people that I loved and respected were really doing this work maybe they weren’t talking about it or framing it in the way of how do I behold the wholeness in a person but we found this commonality and what I love now is more and more of us are having this conversation and there is a dramatic shift now absolutely so how do you hold space for people what does that mean to you like what is that because you just mentioned you know it’s a term we like to throw terms around here and the old treatment world you know trauma informed care holding space what in the world does that even mean I’ll tell you what it means for me what it means for me and and you know I I use this quote today in the training and yesterday even though it was kind of spontaneous you know Dolly Dolly Parton who I love yeah said it takes a lot of money to look this cheap yeah right what I’ll say is it takes a lot of work to look like I’m doing nothing yeah right to hold space truly because we hear that term thrown around and usually that looks like something like oh I’m just going to be you know I’m going to listen to you sure which is holding space but what I’m talking about is being truly present and being curious with someone and not trying to direct or control or have my own bias on that we talked about that yesterday at lunch right having our own unconscious biases and how that shows up so to the best of my ability am I really present with you yeah or am I responding or diagnosing or solution seeking in my mind so holding space really is about being truly present with someone so that they can have their own inner journey and start to connect with their own inner wisdom well I’ll I’ll quote pema’s children yeah who talks about empathy being knowing your own Darkness well enough to sit in the dark with another yeah so interesting I used that quote today in the defense recovery experience you know at Peaks she talks she says compassion’s not a relationship between the Healer and the wounded but between two equals only when we know our own Darkness welcome we be present with the darkness in another and I actually add to that only when I know my own light well can I be present with the light in another
sting I think that’s great sorry thanks right that’s the space um I I think it’s interesting that you come from this uh spirituality background um and in you know to just be transparent with you it’s something that we are exploring at Peaks too is like okay we I think we’ve done a good job we we do a pretty good job of helping people kind of figure out um some of the where their shame roots are and their seeds and all that and and we do a good excavation process and I think we do a pretty good job helping people build containers for some of this some of these things and build some of those schools tools but launching people into purpose and spirituality has been that’s our next Frontier I think and and it’s probably not just with Peaks I think that’s probably the case across the board and um I wonder uh I wonder if you can just speak to that a little bit and just speak to the spiritual journey um and how it relates to conscious recovery yeah so spirituality obviously is one of those words that might people have all their own connotations of what that means and so I’m very careful in conscious recovery to say what does it mean to you not what does it mean to me what I will say though is I’ve identified the three root causes of addiction as unresolved trauma spiritual disconnection and toxic shame I will speak about what I mean by spiritual disconnection because it’s not about connection disconnection from something outside of ourselves it is that we came into the world as a whole and perfect being and then we were programmed whether we call that trauma or you know points of view or school or religion or all these different things that come at us if you will that program has to believe that we’re not essentially whole and perfect that we’re not this infinite being and so we disconnect from that from this trauma and develop shame and these core false beliefs so to me reconnecting with our true nature or our essential being really is what spirituality is about for some that might include religion for some that might include yoga for some that might include walks in nature the externals might look really different but all of it for me the essential core of spirituality is about a reconnection to something that’s already here not about a destination to attaining something that’s missing love that well you know my follow-up there is the trauma word Jason you know how much I love I was waiting for you it has a topic but you know for the viewers out there we’ve challenged trauma we’ve walked through it we’ve done episodes on it but I think you know for me in Reading conscious recovery in your text and also going through uh the experience over the past few days I think your view of trauma is correct and what I mean by that is that I think sometimes as an industry we hyper focus on the hardship the actual traumatic event itself somehow to uproot that get it out the door and then we can sort of continue forward on our journey but that’s not the focus from your description of trauma and would just love for the viewers to hear your side of that tale yeah and Trauma is you know I’m using a very broad umbrella if you will about trauma and that’s any experience honestly where we’re not seen as a whole and perfect being and so if we use that definition we can say that being on planet Earth is a traumatic experience right and so it’s not and we talk talked about this a lot in the experience and I love that you’re asking this because it’s not what happened it is what happened but it’s not only about what happened it’s really about what I decided about myself as a result of what happened so one you know we could have the exact same experience and it could be very traumatic for you and it’s like no big deal for me right I have had experiences that would seem fairly innocuous like not a big deal to people but it was very traumatic for me not because of what happened but because it was that moment that I decided I was stupid I wasn’t lovable I wasn’t good enough and this isn’t logical right right this is not a logical process because as an adult I’m like oh I have evidence to show that I’m not stupid but I believed it so deeply that I couldn’t read well I could not write well like that idea that belief or that frequency was showing up so consistently and I couldn’t talk myself out of it so you know um I don’t remember which trauma specialist said this but trauma doesn’t show up as a memory it shows up as a reaction so the way we work with trauma and the way conscious recovery approaches it is what’s showing up for you right now what’s present within you where is this in your body can we be present with it because with addiction we’re trying to run from it right right and many of us have spent decades some of us running from the traumatic experience through addiction and if we can get a client just to be present for 30 seconds and realize oh wow I can do that that’s where we actually can start to heal the trauma without saying what happened to you when you when you were seven beautiful viewers that’s what I’m talking about right that’s what Brandon’s been trying to say that’s what I’ve been trying to say for the last 100 episodes in one of your favorite forms so I I greatly appreciate it and so well told um and and I think getting to the third you know issue here and what the cause is Right toxic shame uh they seem back to back in a way are they back to back are they toxic shamed unresolve trauma or are they walking alongside each other’s how are those interrelated and how does conscious recovery approach that relationship you know when I wrote the book I really sat with what’s the order of these three root causes and I changed it I changed it because I don’t remember what the original order was but I realized in my own Journey that I did come into the world as a whole and perfect being and a series of traumatic events happened and then I disconnected and because I disconnected I developed shame so for me unresolved trauma spiritual disconnection and toxic shame are in that order it doesn’t mean that’s true for everyone sure but these all exist within us and again I want to go back because I think there’s such importance in trauma isn’t about what happened but it’s what we decided when did I separate from myself in my own journey I actually remember a moment that I closed down most people don’t have that moment but when I was seven I remember feeling the physical sensation of my heart closing and it was at that moment that I made these core decisions that we can call shame I’m unworthy and I’m not lovable and so from that moment throughout my life every experience I had was going back to those core false decisions or core false beliefs so that shame was running the show Even though on a conscious level I had no idea that’s what was happening absolutely yeah well stated and I think that I mean I think that’s just a beautiful way of explaining the how like how we end up where we are and I’m always curious about so what do we do about it right so that’s always the piece that I I mean Jason is probably the most brilliant how therapist I’ve ever met I mean I don’t know we’ve got it [Laughter] I was gonna say I don’t know got a close second here Jason yeah um really it’s I think that we get people to this to quite a bit of insight and to Jason’s Point earlier like we really do um excavate well uh in the sense that we are not uh attempting to just focus on what was the trauma but also what were the messages that came from it so you’ve let’s say you’ve established some of that what do you do next like what is the next step in that process in the conscious recovery Journey well so I want to start with what it’s not for me or what it’s not only right because a lot of the modalities will say things like opposite action or use affirmations or change your narrative and I think that’s all useful right so the opposite action one is if I believe I’m stupid well take a class realize that you’re not you’re not actually stupid so you could find evidence that’s contrary to the core false belief that a lot of that’s still in the mind right and I realized at some point in my own Journey that it wasn’t a logical or a cognitive process because the core false belief developed before my brain was even developed enough to understand what was happening so it wasn’t that I had to talk myself out of it no you’re not stupid right that’s the affirmation I am very smart I am capable and all of that is useful that with conscious recovery we’re saying where did it originate what was the experience of that not what happened but what was the experience of that how is that still alive within you and can we go back and look at the possibility that we can make a different decision not in our mind as a 25 year old or a 60 year old or however old we are but as that four-year-old as that six-year-old so we could call that inner child work but what I’m really saying is and I got myself into some trouble so I think it’ll be fun to say it in this interview so one of the I think it was a Clinical Director came to me during I was at a treatment program and she said a clinician just told me you said you could change the past I’m sure you didn’t say that I said it how did I say what I meant the only past past that actually exists and it’s the past on my mind it’s the story that I’m carrying and so we know eyewitnesses if we if something happens on the street we see an accident the four of us will have a different story right yeah and does it mean one’s true and one’s not no we just have a different lens and so it’s not again it’s not what happened so I’m carrying around a story about a traumatic event and it may not have even happened the way that I thought it did what I’m not saying is we’re going to say to someone it probably never happened like someone who has sexual trauma or something that’s a very real thing but what I’m really saying is a repeat it’s not as much about what happened but more about what I decided so if I can start to care for the five-year-old the six-year-old that inner child can start to make a different decision with more information rather than saying I’m broken because this happened or this was my fault or I’m damaged in some way and the steps really are feeling it’s okay to feel that way because most of us push the feeling down or it wasn’t safe or we left our bodies or we use whatever what we used to call coping strategies that I call Brilliant strategies to manage that and it really is about getting down to that when that originated not so much what happened but what we decided maybe we can make a different decision kind of changes the past right interesting too provocative be okay no we’re great okay good we’re good here I think you know for for me it highlights I I think we’re you know I think sometimes if not often times family systems individuals within family systems struggle with why is Johnny behaving like this why does he just needs to get a job needs to get some structure in his life you know tying his boots and get out there into the world and like do the thing and then we start talking about something like trauma like whoa you know and it sort of a uh a deflection starts to take place they’re like that can’t be a possible reason for which some of that’s too fufui or whatever the case might be for a lack of better words but what I want to highlight and what you did there is that that path to empathy for the viewers and family systems who struggle with what the individual is going through because we’ve all been at a party a place Amala setting somewhere and we have these awesome experiences where we’re gathered with our friends and in relationship with family systems and then we get home and we call and say wasn’t that the greatest time when we tell our story and then our friend on the other line is like that’s not what happened you know in that moment and I think that’s powerful to appreciate that this isn’t just Within These settings where the narratives get disrupted it’s often the case that we’re experiencing the world differently and that showcases I hope for family systems out there um how these narratives can go from a real positive thing for person a but a real devastating thing for person B even though the setting was the same for both individuals yeah and we often hear there’s your version my version and the truth is in the middle but I actually say they’re both 100 accurate because of our lens yeah and let’s like even pull that back a little bit more and look at politics look at religion look at everything in the world if we were just to say your point of view is 100 valid because it’s your lens imagine the change that could happen instantly yeah right and it’s because we’re so deeply entrenched in good and bad and right and wrong that’s not always easy for us to see that all of it is correct based on our point of view and when we can start to work with the client and say is it possible you’re creating reality based on the lens that with which you’re looking at life through not from a place of blame or from a place of right and wrong but from a place of curiosity then we can say wow if you’re not happy with your life how do we clear that lens how do we start looking at what we’re in I go back to the same thing who are false beliefs if I believe I’m unlovable I will literally see it everywhere it’s not possible to see anything else as much evidence comes my way to not support that I will reject it right I’ll find that person or that situation to confirm the core false belief and this is all for most of it’s happening in the unconscious and so many treat much a lot of treatment a lot of therapeutic modalities focus on what we can see but what we really want to do is like what’s the Unseen here and how do we start to heal that yeah and just one final you know or addition to that too just to support the family systems out there who have trouble you know tracking the story that they’re being told by their loved one it’s like I went to buy a red car and I was like there are no other red cars like this in the City of Colorado Springs only Subarus and I at that moment bought the car and then I’m driving around and I see all the red cars again right it went from this very yeah it’s non-existent to it’s existing everywhere and I think that we commonly have these experiences as individuals you know Community society and so forth um and so I think it brings closer to the viewers the opportunity to have empathy for what the individual has seen because we we have these common and shared experiences yeah because then family systems well I’ll say in my family system there was a lot of like no that’s not true that’s not what’s happening but it was true for me right and so that empathy or that Compassion or that openness to saying wow you see that differently than I do I wonder what that’s about right and then we go back to the Curiosity and so if I’m working with someone or if there’s someone in my family who is struggling with an addiction rather than judging that let me be curious about that absolutely
so I’m going to Pivot the conversation just I mean I could talk some more about trauma and but I decide not to um but Brandon so the three of us had your experience yesterday and Brandon I want to start with you I I’d love to hear kind of what it was like for you and maybe what shifted for you a little bit because it seemed impactful there you go you’re doing therapy now all right um no you’re just talking about yourself it’s not the same uh you’re too powerful yes it is too powerful in the host cjson I like it uh um well I uh you know Jokes Aside I’d greatly appreciated the whole experience I actually you know we’ve been dealing with a lot you know from out outside pressure in the Peaks and you know we’ve got a full census a variety of different things going on so work has been a challenging environment I actually went into the day thinking like I’m gonna you know put my toe in the water just for a second I’m gonna go back to my opposite work but uh quickly put the laptop down put it back in the office and was in it and it was really important that I went through the experience yesterday it wasn’t just a distraction from like the work world but sort of a grounding in the experience of being a part of my team again uh and being vulnerable with them and I you know the the moment where you asked us to kind of look into you know each other’s eyes for two minutes and just sit there with that you know Shane and one of our therapists that was literally the first formal time I had been sitting with her and here I am with like an employee and so I think it was grounding and reconnecting but I also loved you know our first little part of the experience together you know what is your experience and just to keep asking that question you know to me and commonly a lot of people come and say well how was your day and it’s like okay well my day in it for me I always get into a tangent about how my day was and this was like how was your day going it’s like I’m fearful right now you know we know what that is from the outside pressures and these things we’re going through as an operation okay Brandon what are you experiencing um loneliness okay Brandon what do you experience dang there’s the fear again you know and it was just an ability to walk through something I think I was able to sputter out hope at the end yeah you know within the Commerce which was my last response or whatever but it was it’s it’s an open-ended question with that doesn’t require like a really long answer to it I just felt that was really powerful and right sized and it reminded me of how like simple this process can be to get inward uh I think that’s what you were trying to do but overall just starting with that I just felt there was a powerful experience and applicable almost in any setting I went home last night with my wife and I was like just ask me what my experiences are
yeah yeah that’s going to help this so um so yeah that would be I appreciate it I think yeah I it was powerful being in that experience with you too Clint what was the question would you experience what did I experience yesterday what are you experiencing now [Laughter] uh uh gosh I had I went through a lot of experiences I first of all I don’t get to sit in trainings very often um you know experiences very often yeah um and when I do I’m usually and I I mean I’m very transparent about this I’m very guarded like most of the time I feel a sort of um need to sort of protect the people around me especially if we’re talking about like my team and my staff and the company as a whole like I just I just want to protect it and so it took me a while just to get out of that space um and uh it was I think the eye contact was probably the two minutes of eye contact it’s hard to hide you know and luckily I was able to um the very first person that I engaged um was a was a clinician and um man there’s something about that moment in her energy just really pulled me down and grounded me and it allowed me to stay open uh much longer than I typically allow myself and so in that sense it was a reminder of one it was a reminder of how guarded I walk around to it was also a reminder of how easy and how important it is to let that down because by letting somebody else in you get to experience you know you talk about you know your own lens but I do think that you can see and at the very least feel the world through other people’s lenses I really do if you allow yourself that opportunity in that space and and then for the rest of the day it allowed us to have allowed me to engage in a a conversation that I would typically be very resistant to um again I am a very solution focused guy I’m a very let’s get to the heart of it let’s figure out how to get through this let’s um let’s not process this let’s push through this and that says a therapist so yeah and so that’s um it’s also very eye-opening and a very good reminder of um that in in a lot of cases I is it I I had to ask myself that question is it fair for me to ask a client to go there if I’m not willing to go there myself so yeah I appreciate you sharing yeah and I it’s the last time Jason freezeman it’s on Films
here’s the blooper reel yeah um and my experience um I mean we you did a great job allowing us to debrief yesterday and uh which I really appreciated but I really um I I found so much I had so many layers of things going on I was I honestly was joyful to be honest with you in a lot of ways because it does feel um really affirming um with with what we do uh I I care deeply about these men in this room as much as [ __ ] as we give each other but like I really do and um I thought it was powerful for you to offer them an experience um I I was proud that as a leadership team we could show up and be present with people and and really level the playing field that felt like like it just felt like we were all people in there together and and I think uh it’s at an amazing table for that and um he foreign probably what I left with too is like I’m wrestling with this spiritual idea I’ve I have recently called myself spiritually homeless which seems really similar to your disconnected thing so that um and that’s unresolved for me if I’m going to be transparent so um and Brandon and I have started talking about this a little bit reading some Alan Watts but um yeah so I I appreciated it and and honestly one of my other strange experiences is uh you handed us a pamphlet with um kind of the five tenets of conscious recovery um but on one of the other folds like your number one thing is like are you experiencing burnout or something like that and I’m like oh yeah this is a Sav in a place that I didn’t know I needed to Sav yeah and uh and I’m grateful for that and and again the energy um which we’re all pretty attuned to uh experienced a shift over the last couple days and and uh it’s pretty powerful and I’m grateful to you for that well thank you you know it’s I went to a program maybe three three years ago and at the end I asked what stood out and a young woman said what on Earth does this have to do with self-care I came here to learn step one step two steps three step four on how to care for myself more yeah and what you’re speaking to is really the intention and when I left yesterday I’m like did we address self-care and today something really powerful came up someone said we’re talking about caring for the soul which is really different than only caring for the body or the mind right and so when we think of self-care we might think of a spa day or extra time off or a vacation but when our soul is hungry to be fed that’s the sole care that’s what we’re really talking about and what we’re really addressing not not through words or through a teaching but through an experience is is it possible that our work could be energizing is it possible that when I’m truly present with someone without the agenda of wanting to fix someone that I can actually feel more energized so not only is the person sitting in front of me going is it going to be more effective for their own process but I’m not here to think you’re broken and my job is to fix you and so in working in the field I see well-meaning clinicians counselors texts coming to work and like you know these people are damaged and broken they may not say it but there’s a felt sense of it and my job is to give them the solution and the solution my job is to fix them my job is and that can be really exhausting and then we can go into did I do it right why didn’t this person get it why didn’t the group go the way I wanted it to and so when we’re opening so my husband told me to never use the acronym again but I’m going to use it I say I’m studying to be a cop curious open and present right when I’m curious open and presence something emerges that is something so much more powerful and the reason I’m giving this very long answer is that feeds the soul that energizes me on a way that’s Way Beyond taking an extra day off Way Beyond setting a boundary we talked a lot about that today yeah and of course I’m provocative I’m like what if we don’t need boundaries not in the way that we believe that we do right we have to delete a bunch of old finding Peaks if that’s the case we can talk about that yeah we can talk about that but I I’m speaking of the energetic boundary right am I guarded am I guarded with the person I’m in front of and how we might think that that’s actually protecting ourselves but actually that might be what’s depleting us so so when I take that down and I’m a human being with you and I would say a spiritual being with you there’s something that happens that can be really energizing so at the end of a long day of work like at the end of today I might be physically tired but I’m I’m emotionally and spiritually energized you know living on purpose and being a person who has meaning and purpose that you talked about and I love that you’re bringing that into your program because a lot of programs aren’t addressing that yeah I don’t think someone can stay sober by what they don’t want I just don’t want to go I don’t want to go to jail again and I don’t want my wife to leave me all those things what do I want right and I want to be fed we all want love and connection and when we experience that it’s energizing absolutely yeah it you know you’re you’re your approach and book I think it does and rightfully so and I think uh challenges the disease model and the disease models being challenged on multiple fronts these days uh so I think it’s very right size but to that sort of diagnosis the patient you know clients in front of you and it’s like okay they’re broken and I’ve got to somehow fix this you know going through the process yesterday I don’t I’ve been able to be in a good group setting in a while so it was nice to be a part of that um you know intervention that you created for six of us within it but was spectacular about it is how how little work you were actually doing and how energized the group became and back to the disease model you weren’t trying to fix anything within that setting and you allowed for a healing process to really sort of start like a flywheel to start taking place within that moment it reminds me of one of the metaphors that came up yesterday you know like when somebody cuts themselves you know outside of a significantly deep wound that requires you know emergency room attention right if you if you kind of just nurture and let it sit there the body will heal itself and it reminds me here that in spirituality it has the ability to heal itself as a process and being in that setting uh clearly reminded of that potential that we’re talking about healing versus fixing and curious if you wanted to speak just a little bit more you know my intention is that we all change our name from Treatment Center to Healing Center yeah and then eventually like a wholeness Center a wellness center but this idea that you’re sharing that like our body does naturally fix itself so does our mind and so does our spirit but we often can’t do it alone that’s the Paradox right the issue is in the Western Medical model we’re like what are your symptoms and how do we get rid of them yeah right and so addiction is a symptom and it looks it’s not a pretty one right and so no one says oh it’s great that you keep going to jail or it’s great that you keep you know doing cocaine at your work we’re not saying that all that what we’re saying is that’s a symptom of something and what’s actually beneath that and how can we actually start to heal that and return to our wholeness so my job isn’t to diagnose and treat you but it’s to be curious with you because what happens is we end up taking on the identity of the diagnosis and you know maybe it’s controversial but I don’t think that’s the client only doing that I think it’s the clinicians as well yeah right and if I’m seeing someone as borderline personality disorder instead of I wonder what this person is really longing for which is love and connection and if I’m in the symptoms and the behaviors and trying to navigate negotiate that not only is it exhausting it’s not affected and you know we have clients you know the insurance companies dictate we don’t get them as long as we all know we need them right bottom line I don’t think there’s anyone in this industry that says you’re going to be great in 28 days that’s what’s happened right now suddenly we all believe that’s the model um so what can we do in those 28 days we can Empower someone to realize that they do have the ability to heal and that there’s something within them that is so powerful that can actually heal and that they’re not their diagnosis they’re not their addiction that’s a symptom of something so let’s unplug from that and look at how we can start to return to our true nature that can happen in 28 days and that happens through experience not teaching yeah I think I think you’re exactly right and I think you know we mentioned managed care and the amount of skill I think it takes too to like have all of these paperwork and and diagnosis things in your head and then you close the door with the client or with the group and you let a lot of that go and you just be with people because it’s all sitting out there and you got to pick it up and write a note and do all the things but um to create that genuine space um with all that chatter it takes a lot of skill and increasingly so yeah and and and I want to be clear what I’m not saying is there’s not something useful to that and we’re all doing that and that is intended to be helpful and it can be helpful what I’m saying is in addition to the diagnosing treating let’s look at the ability yeah for that that cut to heal yeah absolutely right and you know we could get into a whole holistic you know conversation about physical health as well but for this conversation rather than looking at someone as their diagnosis can I look at at very least it’s something they have but it’s not who they are at very least that’s at least a pivot that would make me really happy yeah yeah the the potential for Transcendence to move away from the thing that I’m calling myself an object an addict into something that is uh has not only more potential that but isn’t just that thing at the end of the day and I this is what I really love about this part of the movement and the disruption of the industry and the disease model of care right if I no longer can adopt an attitude that I am this thing and see myself as a subject with real healing potential and power I can actually move away from something called addiction and that’s gonna that’s gonna be a whole other episode to talk about what that might look like for an individual at the end of the day and I’m certainly not suggesting at the end of the day that that means somebody can use again in the future because our the situation is complex subjectively speaking right for any individual but I think that’s a real powerful feature that has been kind of lost within this disease model where people are carrying away continued stories about themselves three five years ten years down the road that are just no longer true about them right and even if it is a disease like let’s just start with let’s say we do buy into the disease model we wouldn’t be curious about what caused the disease right like even if we do have that framework and I I personally okay sure I could say it is and I can say it isn’t yeah but what I ask is what gets created and we this this came up yesterday but what gets created when I say to someone or to myself you have a chronic lifelong illness that can never be cured but only treated one day at a time right and that can be really depressing some people would say that’s empowering right because I know I have this disease and I know I need to take my medicine every day so I I hear that narrative but if we’re saying and you you pointed to it I’m just an addict or an alcoholic so I’m never going to be able to do this right right and it just simply isn’t true yeah and it is a collective narrative that that we’ve started to and you know take it a step further to be a little more controversial you know we we believe that there’s a chemical imbalance in the brain that causes some of these what we call disorders but we literally don’t know if that’s true now sometimes it’s been science has said oh it’s true oh wait it’s not quite true yeah and I’m not I’m not um there’s nothing wrong with that because true science is continuing to explore right right so there’s validity in that but what does what gets created when I say well you have this chemical imbalance so we just need to treat it you can never actually heal that and how long it prolongs the potential Solution that’s over here right well you develop your your whole identity is just a collection of symptoms after a while right you just become symptoms and it’s uh and I think that to your point you lose that whole self you lose that connected self you you just start to identify it with your faults or at um or your uh coping strategies or as you call them your brilliant strategies yeah and I think that that’s a real um I think it takes people in the opposite direction you know because that’s not who we are we’re not a collection of symptoms right yeah and the exciting part is now science is saying oh wait maybe DNA isn’t even solid maybe genes aren’t even solid our brain isn’t even solid right we know that through repetitive usually they say through repetitive Behavior we change the grooves in our brains rather than transmitters we can literally change the brain so even if someone says I have a chemical imbalance in my brain even if that’s true we can change it right and I don’t think we only change it through Behavior but some of the deeper work and what you’re speaking to is like there’s a place within me that’s unharmed and unharmable there’s a place that within me that’s greater than just this chemical imbalance even if it exists right and so I’m not saying it doesn’t exist but let’s look at all the different possibilities physical intellectual emotional and spiritual interesting right so even if I do have a genetic predis disposition to something that doesn’t mean I don’t have the ability to start to change that right right well I think it’s a unique component of um this modality other modalities are specifically designed to gear how why theirs is right and others are wrong and this is so much more inclusive in its nature it allows for all of the things can be right why not yeah sure whatever your whatever your lens is go ahead take your lens and then you can still use these tools you can still approach things from this point of view because it doesn’t actually say that your lens is wrong it doesn’t actually it doesn’t create more shame it’s this and right and someone has at once asked me can someone get sober and stay sober on conscious recovery alone and my answer is I hope not because there’s not one answer right I’m going to share with you all I’ve never shared this but I had a nightmare and I woke up like startled and the nightmare was I was dead and there was a group a conscious Recovery Group and my picture was on the wall and they were like this is the one and only win I’m like oh my gosh please no no no no right because this is a curiosity right I hope I sincerely hope that what I believe today won’t be true in six months with more exploration or that I’ll say oh there’s more to it than that right right because you know the world the World is Flat that was once a fact right it was it was a shared fact now people well that doesn’t mean it was true well we now believe it’s round but who knows there might be other things happening I keep telling Jason maybe it’s a hologram right so it’s like um all I know is not all there is to know right and that alone right that alone is like there is no one answer it’s disarming but empowering at the same time well because people are a lot of people are uncomfortable with not knowing right and um that is I think particularly true of uh our clients who are in early recovery right because it can be very scary for them not to know so predictability becomes a way they believe they’re feeling safe and that might be true for our industry too I mean here’s the way it works here’s the science let me stay in this box it’s very comfortable yeah and I think that’s and it’s a it’s an excellent highlight of an industry in change and in the process of changing too right because when we get stuck in narratives as we talked about on these episodes um and with you know multiple guests now uh uh that when these narratives are in front of patient care they become restrictive as well too in a sense so when somebody’s like you were talking about yesterday you know the person well he’s drug seeking
it’s not of course that’s what they’re doing right but when we create those narratives we move away from introspection and what is our opportunity in the moment to treat this individual to help them do something better than drug seek in this moment and the challenge is really on us not then but so much of the historical application of treatment has been applied Johnny’s not doing the job Johnny’s drug seeking if they just showed up better if they just went to the meetings if they just did 90 and 90 all this external stuff and it seems so restrictive and so uh incoherent now at least in what we experience at Peaks and what conscious recoveries I remember the first time I started to question the narrative well everyone who relapses with someone who quit going to meetings like maybe that’s true but then I was like but why did they stop why did they you know even if I have a judgment why did they stop engaging with their support group so what’s actually happening because it’s not just that external thing that caused it there’s something much more much deeper happening yeah
agreed I think we’ve solved it guys I mean I could tell you know I can talk for 10 hours right yeah so clearly yeah as we do uh as we do wind up or wind down or whichever we’re winding yeah um I guess I I want to go back to um I think the part of the Brilliance of the conscious recovery is some of it’s Simplicity of just like reminding us that we were with people and and I do tell the clinical team often like you know all of these this curriculum we built and we have a binder this thick and how we introduce it to clients and all that we are the tools though it’s the relationship um and we can’t lose track of that and it’s easy to lose track of it with all the noise going on but but um people just need to know that they’re not crazy and that toxic shame gets resolved through these relationships and and building the confidence I was thinking of I was meeting with one of our um clients who’s wrestling with the mental health issue and his only approach to this point his life has been to take meds and and the meds aren’t working anymore and I had to tell them like hey it great news it’s time for you to show up and do your part too and like we’re here with you and we’ll we’ll offer you the tools but um we can’t do it for you we can’t do the lifting for you we’re with you though on this journey in in um and it’s such a great reminder uh to all that and uh TJ so with that um if you could talk to the camera and talk about conscious recovery if you could do a little bit of a sales of what you do and what you’re working on and what’s next recovery is intended to help people reconnect with their true nature and unplug from the symptoms of addiction or mental health concerns and really look at what’s underneath it and actually do the deeper healing so whether you’re a person in recovery a clinician in private practice you own or operate a treatment program there’s books there’s workbooks there’s online courses there’s trainings which are also experiences and there is curriculum so we my intention for you and for everyone on planet Earth quite frankly is to remember that you are a whole and infinite perfect spiritual being and if the word spiritual doesn’t work you have infinite potential within you and so you can go to consciousrecovery.com to learn more also I’ll do a little plug for wholehearted.org I’m on that platform along with Gabriel mate Marianne Williamson and some other people there’s a bunch of free talks and courses whether you’re a professional in behavioral health or an individual in recovery thank you and with that we will wind up our episode um uh TJ I want to thank you again for being here and uh thank you guys too for joining this discussion um yeah it’s just been a real honor and um I I really uh really enjoy having this conversation it feels really affirming please uh follow us on Facebook Instagram uh we do have a tick tock account rolling around out there um Twitter
if you have any questions feel free to email us at questions at findingpeaks.com and uh with that we’ll sign off take care everyone

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Episode 94The Biopsychosocial Model of CareWatch Nowhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lgB8rnzbrMListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Brandon Burns brings on Jason Friesema and Clinton Nicholson to spark a discussion over the Biopsychosocial model of care. By breaking down this model into biological, psychological, and social environments, our team shares industry insights into the practical application of specific models of care throughout a clinical curriculum.

Talking Points1. Introduction to the Biopsychosocial model 2. Biological aspect 3. Psychological aspect 4. Social environment aspect 5. Finding meaning 6. Behavioral impacts 7. Encouraging family systems Quotes

“There’s no one answer for why we do anything. Its everything! Why am I who I am? Because of everything that’s happened to me up until this moment, like I cannot go back and find that one time that has really defined behavior that I reinforced on my own. ”– Clinton Nicholson, Chief Operations Officer

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -94- TranscriptsBrandon Burns chief executive officer for Peaks recovery centers bringing episode what is it 6922 so if this is your first time viewing us you have a lot of catching up to you because we have resolved many of the world’s problems especially clinical problems uh that happen for people in the world so that’s what we’re here to do again today if you’re new to us thanks for joining us for this great episode we’ve got the the head honchos the big dogs in the room to talk about biopsychosocial model of care it’s on peak’s site many of those out there uh finding Peaks at peace recovery.com or information at findingpeaks.com okay I’ll fix it we’ll figure it out we’ll get to it but with that there’s a lot of curiosity around the biopsycho social model and that’s what we’re here to talk today against the backdrop of maybe other models that might exist in the industry we’ve got Chief clinical Officer Jason friezma LPC Lac most of the clinical things yeah yeah EMDR yeah I have been EMDR trained yes thanks for asking yeah great question Clint Nicholson Chief Operating Officer LBC Lac all the clinical things yeah sure it’s not true this is a great day for the uh biopsychosocial model because we’ve got some tiredness in the room yeah absolutely everybody’s a little tuckered out long week and here we are sleep uh important all three of these things right at the end of the day so yeah they’re here to show us what not to do and how to better walk through this as a mechanism so breaking down what bio psychosocial means so we have biological psychological and social environment who wants to kick this off I’m Kitty good news I think we start biological right biological it’s in the beginning so the bio side of things what are we doing why are we doing it why is it important I’m going to take a step back okay and model of care what is that actually referring to in uh essentially what you’re there are different models that identify what are believed to be either the cause or a highly correlative um sort of variables that promote or create addiction and so uh like biopsychosocial model is looking at all of these different varying aspects of an individual’s life recognizing that we don’t live in a Vortex you know we live in a dynamic World in that the reason for our behavior is not one thing it’s everything there are multiple components that uh that are create us as a human being and then therefore impact our behaviors so um that’s like the big big picture and that was probably the easiest one to answer so I’ll kick it off to Jason now so okay you can get down to the nitty-gritty yeah I’m a big picture guy okay well thanks for yeah uh doing that overview and I think we need to answer Brandon your your question specifically like biological is obviously um what’s going on in somebody’s body um and and particularly when we look at um depression or addiction that’s a lot of what’s going on in the brain although other parts of the body certainly would be a component of biological um component and really a lot of times people come to our program in biologically not great shape whether whether it’s from neglecting their body or literally abusing their body um that is an aspect that if that isn’t this isn’t addressed it will certainly hinder a person’s ability to uh recover from mental illness or addiction so um a biological component um clearly makes sense in our model of care and with with uh Peaks we have a robust medical team that is equipped to to handle people dealing with a variety of significant medical impairments and I would include also like the the neurological components in that as well as part of that biological component back to you back to me yeah yeah it was pretty that’s pretty good okay yeah yeah basically why don’t they call it body logical
[Laughter] if you don’t feel good it’s going to be really hard to like work on yourself from a psychological psycho emotional standpoint so you gotta that’s probably where a good chunk of the stabilization model takes place that physiological stabilization and you get things like mat Suboxone for people with opioid use disorder um you know we do you can do either like a valium or a phenotaper for people who are on alcohol use disorder or even benzo use disorder as well so there are a bunch of different um and then of course with mental health you know like stabilization through Pharma pharmacological interventions are really important and it gives you sort of like a baseline I guess so that you can start to do deeper work because if you’re super dysregulated physiologically you’re basically just I know you I want to spitting into the wind I guess yeah I almost used a different word I think that’s you know that’s a good point and just to hang on it for a second because you know and and rightfully so so much of the work or perceived work as a causal feature of ongoing maladaptive behaviors is something like a past uh traumatic event carrying out playing out in somebody’s you know life over a period of time that doesn’t resolve itself turns you know over time into a maladaptive Behavior but you know some people call it Peaks and they’ll say something like hey I gotta work on my trauma okay but I’ve also been using you know math heroin you know alcohol you know consistently daily for the past six months right so within treatment episodes we you know what what I think I hear is silly sitting around the biological aspect of this is you can’t immediately dive into it because we aren’t physiologically speaking well enough to actually participate in yeah right it’s not that it’s not an important value set um but if you you know have the stomach pains of going through an opioid withdrawal like there’s just no advantage to engaging in an EMDR session or anything of that nature I mean if you’ve been doing mess and you’ve been up for three days doing it or child work is going to be really tough because you’re going to be very tired yeah and it’s just we should wait we should wait yeah like you need to take a nap first yeah and then I it’s the Maslow’s hierarchy is another way of kind of looking at it or framing the biopsychosocial model and it’s just the idea that you have these basic human functions that have needs that have to be met before you can sort of climb the pyramid towards self-actualization and so that biological those biological functions like shelter food water are Again part of that Foundation like they really make uh they create the scaffolding that we can kind of build from throughout the rest of the treatment episode well I think of the word I’ll borrow a word from the emergency department triage right where when people go to the emergency department um after a car accident that isn’t the time you want to get you know a mole looked at it’s probably when you’re dealing with some acute injuries and that sort of thing and oftentimes when people are coming into Peaks like there’s some acute physical symptoms that are going on that just need to be addressed before we get to the looking at the mole if you will yeah or the inner child yeah and and of course right you have the biological distress you know markers of addiction and mental health disorders on top of it you have the psychological impact of removing yourself from your last use at the end of the day as well too right so you come in you’re feeling like crap but you also have this intense pull psychologically to want to be doing so so I think we can you know the viewers can hear out there how this kind of really starts compounding on itself and you can see how complex this really becomes to treat as a condition because even if the person physiologically wants to be well um the greatest resource to them you know especially in substance use disorders was the drug of choice in the background that would alleviate that symptomology for them and so there’s this tug and pull relationship of wanting to feel well but experientially speaking the medicines we’re using are different from what the brain is originally associated with so there’s a conflict there and out of this just using that kind of as a bridge into this psychological aspect and so let’s talk more about the psychological component of it yeah sure and so um you know part of we actually when people come to Peaks and it’s standard in the industry we do biopsychosocial evaluations like where we kind of look at all these aspects of a person’s life and and they do tend to be pretty in-depth and the psychological part is certainly looking at mental health issues and and even beyond the ones maybe people are initially presenting with you mentioned the minigo trauma like that is uh you know it’s fairly ubiquitous and and it’s a word that gets thrown around a lot but it for a good reason because a lot of people do endure a fair amount of trauma but it but it is beginning to look at um once we were kind of through some of that biological things it is looking at those components of the of the psychology if you will
yeah I think I had something brilliant to say and I forgot right yeah okay yeah yeah well mic drop yeah for sure yeah Jason did good yeah but it but in the right in the in the way that it’s it’s compounded right if an individual does have something you know coming out of the pandemic like you know severe anxiety or they were isolated and it led to a depressive State and through that depressive state in isolation the liquor store was across the street and then they added the alcohol to it and you know it starts compounding in that way and then the social aspect at the Bottom Rung the isolate you know the isolatory feature of it you know we’re talking about somebody who’s getting hit at all three levels of this over a period of time and then walking out into the world and I think we can start to hear the real conflict and challenges that it takes within this because when somebody enters an episode you know like Peaks whether it’s a 30 or a 45 or a 90-day stay through the levels of care throughout that process we’re we’re battling a lot of different things and it’s and it feels kind of nearly impossible to start addressing like every single feature alongside of it and so we get a lot of intensity especially in the first two to three weeks of any treatment episode code you know you know for me I treat an AMA within the first two weeks when you know it’s really a condition of the first few days but within that time frame I think we’re recognizing the craving States and for the viewers out there who are familiar or not familiar with insurance policies and basis right how do you point at bio in Insurance terms biomedical conditions right that are leading to or requiring an inpatient stay or a detox day at the end of the day the reality of a biomedical condition namely for insurance I mean alcohol has easier components of it right you can send some of the emergency room you can say okay we have psoriasis of the liver and inflamed liver and these types of things but those are things that are going to heal in time you know in the absence of drinking as well so they don’t hold a ton of weight as a biomedical condition right and craving state is the largest biomedical condition that insurers really lean into and over time we want to see those craving States go down but at the same time like other diseases that exist out there or other other you know medical conditions we can’t open the hood of the brain and go there’s the craving State and we just got to unpluck that thing and get it out of there and so within treatment episodes with even within a biomedical you know or a biopsychosocial model uh in that regard it becomes really challenging just to really try and address all of these types of things especially because one of the first things we’re going to experience right is resistance in the process and and it’s a natural resistance it’s a discomfort something was working not sustainably but working just enough as we’ve talked about on past episodes where kind of pulling that back you start to re you know arrive at this conflict and oh I don’t need that I need this other thing but we’re trying to stay well we have to do these things so we can arrive at this thing like trauma work right at the end of the day um anyways trying to do a little tangency no I think I I I came back okay yeah I think to speak to one of the key components of the biopsychosocial model is this idea of a coping mechanism right and really looking at the substance use as a behavior really at is a coping mechanism that is uh it’s just very maladaptive but it’s how the individual is typically managing stress anxiety sometimes trauma uh you know emotional dysregulation whatever the case may be and also physiological symptoms I mean somebody may actually have chronic pain as well if they’re and they are have opiate use disorder just through dependence so when you look at it as a coping mechanism rather than as something that I have an addiction that is inside of my brain that I have to like unplug like you were talking about it gives a different it helps you see that the person a little bit more holistically you know to use a another word that people love to throw around so and we did an episode on that yeah sorry that was episode 5 yeah look it up something that’s something yeah yeah um but so I think that it just and it helps to highlight that all of these things are connected right like that that biological component bleeds into the psychological component which can actually be of feedback to the biological component and then you bring in the social aspects which are um the the external environment and all of the stimuli that are just constantly being bombarding the individual and you’ve they’ve got this one saying this maladaptive yet effective coping mechanism that we very rudely take away immediately and uh to I think that there’s an expectation that that healing happens a little bit more quickly than it really does and people think it’s you know 30 days and it’s more like 18 months before you really start to see some pretty significant shifts in in the brain um so but yeah to your tangent first two weeks are really hard yeah it’s pretty rough and our medical staff and residential staff and clinical staff are absolutely brilliant in those first two weeks because it can be very um it’s hard on everybody yeah it creates a tough environment so we had we kind of talked do you want to hit I did I did want to hit the one thing because I don’t want to I don’t know if we’re pivoting off of this but the social component is really important absolutely and it sounds like probably the most obvious thing maybe to contemplate as we consider this model but it is the people can’t get better in a box right you you mentioned cirrhosis and and I think about I’ve I’ve talked to a lot of clients over the years who I’ve talked to with cirrhosis and they’re like I can never drink again because my liver will fail but it didn’t prevent them from drinking before so then we add on like maybe you’re depressed and all that but on top of all that like what is your support system and what does that look like and how do we nurture that and how do we uh we spend some time in our curriculum contemplating like who is relationally in our life and how do we want to bring healthy people closer and how do we create space for that by pushing maybe some of the more negative or less positive people and things in our life further out and that that component of the biocycle is social model I think is pretty significant yeah to contemplate I think it’s actually the most dynamic really I think because it is the thing that you have well it depends you have either a lot of control or very little you know like to to pluck somebody out of this really safe um healing environment for 45 days where they just are they feel good they’re clear-headed they are they’re on the the they’re taking the first steps on the path towards long-term recovery and um they’re doing so in the safety with people who love them and care about them and really want them to thrive and and we pluck them out of that and we put them right back into their old environment and to think that that’s not going to impact I don’t care how much individual work you do and how much Insight you gain and how much uh how much you’re able to sort of reframe your world and see things more clearly man that external world is just going to come racing back and it’s going to trigger everything around you including those old synapses and thinking patterns and behaviors um so if you’re not acknowledging that social component if you’re not actually really Preparing People by walking them through like hey guess what what happens when you have that first fight with your partner yeah like what happens because that used to happen every single night before you got here so what’s how is that not going to continue to happen moving forward and what is the new coping strategy that you’re going to use if you’re not addressing that then I think you’re you’re missing one of the most crucial pieces of actual long-term recovery and to that point I think it I think if you’re going to do bio psychosocial approach you have to have a family component too absolutely as many clients as uh can benefit from it and that can be biological yeah it could be biological or family of choice whichever yeah absolutely yeah yeah it might be uh building a family of choices absolutely but teaching new Dynamics and new ways to communicate that that don’t involve shame or control and contain good healthy boundaries I think is such a key component yeah family work is actually really good at IOP because that’s when the client is back in the home and they are experiencing all of those things that uh they were really convinced they had to work through and already resolved while they’re in treatment and then ah crap it all comes back up again and not only are they experiencing the same internal issues the family’s seeing the same behaviors and so everybody gets really scared and it actually takes a lot of practice that’s I think that’s the other thing about recovery that people don’t really talk about a lot it’s really about practice it takes time to re-learn how to live your life yeah and uh yeah so I think again um that social component just has to be reiterated yeah it it it reminds me and for the viewers out there we did an episode with Dr alardi and Sebastian younger Sebastian younger the author of tribe and freedom and War and a few other books that we mentioned in that episode but in the try book he goes that length to describe trauma symptoms for veterans and 80 of uh PTSD is short-term PTSD for veterans within the event taking place and within two years and what we discussed on the episode is how adaptive it actually is to form a behavioral response around it you know so if you’re in a war zone for example and a guns are going off and it happens you know rapidly you want to get on the ground and you know crawl and get out of the way and move towards safety but now you’re at a birth kids birthday party and a balloon pops and you’re doing the same type of thing well in the war environment right of course that is an Adaptive trait and it’s bleeding over well the hope is that in time that’ll resolve itself um you know organically in the that way what it comes to for long-term PTSD for the 20 of veterans suffering with the long term is we go from an Adaptive feature and years later we are still with every pop in the room right crawling on the ground and trying to find that sort of safety so the the thing that I really want to draw the attention to out of that is we’re talking about a behavior and we can create an awareness around the behavior right within a setting through talk therapy through a variety of different ways but if we are within the treatment episode we’re in that safe place and we’re on the world where balloons are popping and that type of thing so now we move into the social aspect of things and I think this is what is often missed like when we think about it right we were talking about it earlier the pink Cloud event that kind of takes place in treatment New Perspective I believe I’m self-actualizing I believe I’m getting insights that have never had in before around my condition that causes the correlations to my condition and so now I’m just going to go out into the world but what we what we cannot change in a Time limited episode and this is true across any treatment program or rooted behaviors it requires this practice this an ongoing mechanism right in the outside world and I think that’s what makes the challenge that’s so difficult is a challenge and as we were talking about earlier you know family systems why wouldn’t they let you know Johnny go back home and live in the basement again because he sounds different he looks better than he’s ever looked before and he’s talking better and he has all these goals and ideas and things that he didn’t have going into you guys great job now come home and we greatly miss the challenge in the time it’s going to take to really coordinate those behaviors and all of the communal and you know Outpatient Treatment modalities are going to be required to support the individual as they go through that as and especially as they encounter new challenges along the way absolutely or so yeah I mean all of those old behaviors and patterns are they’re gonna pop right back up again unless you I mean there’s this old and again when we were talking earlier this old kind of 12-step adage that you know if you want to get sober you only have to do you only have to change one thing and that’s everything yeah yeah it’s so so tough it works but the idea is that you have to actually nurture change pretty uh like you have to be really intentional about it and actually and look at the things that you can change I mean then it goes all the way back to the Serenity Prayer my gosh this is turning into a 12-step episode which I mean we’ll get out of it it’s a throwback yeah well I actually think it’s a perfect segue okay to what uh what may be missing from the biopsychosocial model yeah yeah absolutely um okay we deal with their body we deal with their brain we deal with the people around them but there’s this other piece that I think you know we you and I were pretty enamored by that conversation at the Symposium I’m talking about how uh adding that Fourth Kind of uh Dimension to this approach means helping people find some meaning and find um some mindfulness in different ways I think can be um a great uh adjunct at least to this model or uh and maybe a critical adjunct well it gives it sustainability right like it gives it longevity because you’re talking about identity purpose meaning things that actually uh become their foundational values that you hold on to and that you can and that are actually pretty good at redirecting uh thought redirecting Behavior because you start to live outside of values that you’ve really committed to and um yeah I think that it’s uh a really I’d never heard of that spiritual component until we were at the Symposium and um you know and talking to the psychiatrist it actually the the word spirituals can be heavy sometimes and it has a lot of um you know mixed connotation so but having it almost be it’s almost like biopsychosocial existential as this other component because it is a search for meaning at that point and that is something that um you once you learn that you have control of that that that’s actually within your power to identify and establish that is um that’s a tool that’s an amazing coping skill like that’s an amazing tool because you can reframe pretty much anything at that point so um yeah I loved it I love that concept which is a philosophy now yeah so what’s existentialism yeah so existence precedes essence right hey go take a bathroom break yeah bathroom break kids this is going to take a while yeah uh so we’re this is great this is directional I was I was worried about you guys you’re all tuckered out at the beginning but you guys are really coming into your own here so I love it I think before we get into you know how is this model namely beneficial or as a contemporary you know model of treatment how it’s beneficial and why we use something like this or why we call it integrated care and get into those features let’s kind of just quickly you know thumb through maybe what other models you know might be because I think the other models that we might speak to are conflating um that oh well I got my SSRI or my snri so like why do I even have to do this talk therapy thing right at the end of the day and you know if the symptomology is suppressed right through the disease model let’s say and we’ve talked about it on past episodes I mean go back The Dark darlardi episodes on Dr Kevin McCully a senior fellow at The Meadows spoke directly to the disease model of care and charitably in the episode always curious about what he can learn and add to the model as an experience but if we believe as a world that ssris control serotonin levels and serotonin is leading to depression then I should just be able to go to a place like Peaks get the ssris and be on my way but we’re learning that these monotherapeutic values aren’t you know efficient not even really sufficient in and of themselves and really lack outcomes by themselves 85 percent of all uh of of Mo of individuals who are suffering from major depressive disorder are just simply using ssris that are only 30 percent effective uh in that regards to do the mass it’s ineffective right at the end of the day so um but maybe we can just quickly jog through model of care that or the disease model of care the choice or moral model of care and just see how these things are maybe still sitting in the psyche of family systems that think okay these are the things that are actually true and so the output should be ssorizo get rid of the depression because we’re sending them to Peaks and they’re going to sit with you know the psychiatrist position and so forth yeah which one do you want I’ll just start and then you clean it up okay cool okay so I mean I think I think there are I think there’s room uh in the field for different models of care right like I don’t think I don’t think we have a corner market on this concept of biopsychosocial uh existential model of care but I think um when you look at it you know like AAA um arguably is a kind of combines a medical model of care calling alcohol is a disease and you have an allergy they use that terminology kind of along with the moral model where like uh you’re screwing up quit screwing up right and to be honest with you there there are people in this population there are people that that makes the most sense to them that like that matches like kind of on the screw-up I I can admit that every day and um I’m gonna go and uh confirm my moral shortcomings frequently and that confession uh and then a book kind of can guide me through that moral shortcoming and community and that’s what a has always done and that is a great component of a as well but um so I think there’s room for that there are people that really even that come through Peaks that are like I can’t wait to get back and get to my AAA meetings because you guys don’t offer it enough here and and I need um because I need to say every day that I’m an alcoholic and I’m powerless over alcohol in my life’s unmanageable and like those things um that could be really helpful for some people um the problem is I think with that is it’s really exclusionary whereas I think other models I think can be more inclusionary and I think to your point the medical model which just says it’s a disease and so therefore there’s a solution to this malady um usually in the form of a medical intervention that also seems to fall short but again it can be helpful for some or it’s an important component part of the biopsychosocial model of care yeah and I think that both of those models actually also have this kind of assumption that the addiction will always be within you right like you will always have this disease or you always have this moral defect that will forever make you susceptible and forever identify you as an addict like it’s I need to I’m so so and I’m alcoholic like those both of those models really lean into character and identity and they kind of Define it for you so they’re I mean while you’re talking Jason a a actually has a bio psycho and social component it really does it just is sort of umbrella around a kind of moral um or Choice based um I don’t know filter I guess is kind of what you’re pushing it all through and it doesn’t and I think in that sense it makes it pretty exclusionary because it will reinforce things like shame so if you have a lot of trauma if you have a lot of depression if you have a lot of PTSD if you have um I think if you have a lot of underlying mental health it’s I don’t know how effective it is without additional interventions and yeah but it’s a it does serve its purpose and it has a place and these aren’t pure models of care yeah heart reduction is considered a model of care yeah but of course that also uses these components as well um and our production can be so many things it absolutely is yeah just yeah so I think I purely separating them all out there’s they’re all kind of Venn diagrams they all kind of overlap each other anyways yeah it feels like reductive it yeah bio psychosocial is kind of the the new sort of Paradigm but it can be reduced into these or these right you know AAA uh you know disease model and so forth reduced into the biocycle absolutely they all have components but the biopsychosocial model doesn’t seem to have the edges or the the feeling of restrictions around the level of care like an ability to see past something into something like hey I think you know the existential moment here matters right you know in that type of way or the um the room to shift from spirituality into a term like existential right so that maybe people can better hear what you know the approach might be for them if they have become in a way you know Dev to the concept of spirituality you know before entering treatment yeah absolutely yeah it’s a I I you know the biopsychosocial model really for me anyways um takes away the pressure to I try to identify why like it doesn’t it’s there’s no one answer why we do anything it’s everything the reason why am I who I am because of everything that’s happened to me up until this moment like I cannot go back and find that one time that has that has really um defined a behavior that is that I’ve reinforced on my own for however long it’s and when you don’t have to focus on the why you as much or at least you’re not looking for causation you it gives you the freedom to explore all of the other variables that are out there it allows you to see things on a much more macro level rather than just saying I’m just going to take the disease piece and we’re just going to do the disease piece and I’m going to do this really well again that’s taking somebody and putting them in a box in a Vortex where there’s no other things around it and it’s not all work opioid addiction can be resolved through Suboxone yeah exactly you know mat right and there’s an incredible harm reduction value to it it saves many lives in the process but it doesn’t always objectively work for each independent subjective experience around why a person uses drugs or alcohol in the first place a common thing that I’ve talked about in past episodes around that is like an example is you know there’s a difference between subjectively speaking a person who takes an opiate for the first time to get high versus like you know a dad skating down the driveway with his daughter Falls breaks his knee gets into a hospital takes an opioid to resolve the pain and then in the process becomes addicted right there’s two existentially different and subjective experiences for which one pill cannot account for both situations in all instances and in the end like is that really what we want to explore over 45 days to me a more interesting question yeah it’s like okay so who are you right now and uh who do you want to be when you in the future you know like those are pretty good questions to ask somebody that give you actual directional goals right you’re not you’re really looking at right now and saying all right this no matter how I got here I’m here and I’m unhappy and I need to change it’s like cool what do you want to change into like where are you going from now uh where do you want to end up where is this path gonna start gonna lead to and then you can actually nail down a plan you can start working through things and while you’re working through that plan then you start to do that exploration you develop that Insight you start to see and do those deep Dives clinically that allow you to sort of see how maybe you’ve framed the world or created narratives or um or just sort of Taken uh maybe an approach that is maladaptive that you thought was actually really healthy so it’s um it just to me it also makes for like a much more interesting uh treatment episode rather than like all right well let’s talk about that how you went to that party that one time and now you’re you know now you’re homeless yeah because that’s yeah yeah you went to that one Rave and we it all went downhill from there it’s like that doesn’t make any sense so yeah absolutely and it speaks to like you know many people go to the Rave and many people will try the Ecstasy and many people will walk away and not do it again and some people will move forward and form a habit around it you know as well too and I think that there’s and you know to your point earlier around like this isn’t a necessarily a thing that you’re living with it’s always going to follow you throughout the rest of your life because we know you know we’re talking about it at the um at the winter Symposium recently in the Psychedelic panel that we had put on you know that um you know to the point I think I want to make is like we’ve we’re forming behaviors over a long period of time and we can go okay I want to change these behaviors and move into this direction but post-treatment we might be resolving behaviors that are decades yeah you know impregnated in the brain right and our responses to the world and so the challenge becomes on the other side of that um figuring out a path forward not just with this great thought of wanting to change but how I’m going to actually do that in real time oh the how yeah your favorite the how component yeah and it’s his favorite too and I think this is also where it bleeds into like you know some treatment websites say well 73 of all of our patients go on to get a job after treatment it’s like is that the outcome that is desired it’s an important outcome within a capitalistic you know you know society that we live in and it’s something we appreciate when a person ties their boots in the morning and goes out and gets a job but at the same time that doesn’t really resolve anything we’re talking about other than something like okay that’s one Behavior change they’re holding a job but if you’re white knuckling it and that moment just holding the job and you got all these stressors going on like how miserable yeah technically being a drug dealer is a job so I think that’s it
I feel like it’s more of an under the table thing but yeah yeah that’s an interest that metric doesn’t make sense uh without context right that’s like taking that one thing and we’re gonna say hey we’ll measure all success based on this one if you can do this one thing that we killed it yeah we nailed it and maybe you just have like a really robust indeed portal and that’s actually you’re the best part of your program I don’t know yeah and and one other conflict that I wanted to add to it just for the viewers out there and part of that panel discussion too and not just carrying out behaviors but that there is this strange um moment between after the age of like I think it’s December between 24 and 26 and the samsa data where 50 of users who prior to the age of 26 would have received per the DSM-5 uh substance use disorder it would meet criteria for a substance use disorder but for some reason after the age of 26 50 of them drop off and are no longer uh qualified in that sense lack better words within the DSM-5 for having a continued substance use disorder so we have real data out there that somehow people form these behaviors and then somehow it just falls off and they stop doing them at the end of the day and to the job point I think that accelerates people’s attention why I want to become this engineer I want to do this type of thing and so there are things that can change behaviors quite naturally and organically within our society that don’t also require treatment but also alludes to the fact that if we’re just going to Anchor into something like the disease model we’re losing 50 percent of that suddenly and why is that happening right and I so so I think those types of data sets reinforce the biopsycho you know social approach that maybe this person is continuing to use maybe after the age of 26 because it’s more than just the biology that’s taking place or some symptomology that’s pushing it Forward right yeah and you know as you’re talking about all this in the job measurement it isn’t like I feel like there’s so many behaviors that change as a result of doing good work of doing good bio psychosocial work it’s like people will just become happier and they will get a job they’ll want to be productive in that sort of thing and and it isn’t about like it just it’s just so much more than just getting people to be compliant with behavior changes specifically yeah because that’s no Freedom at all right that’s no it’s no relief at all to just figure out what behaviors are going to make other people happy and then do that I think for me one of the best indicators has always been you really start to see self-respect come back there’s a value people start to recognize that they have value again and once you start on that pass it’s uh I think I think you’re in a good place I think because you have a lot of that’s a a lot of Runway there because you can start to give yourself Grace you can start to give the world Grace you can start to really focus on all of a sudden your journey you’re worthy of it again and before I think that self-worth when when we meet people those first two weeks it doesn’t really exist people feel pretty worthless and that is a very very hard place to exist in Period and and we’ve talked about it too I think you know the great challenge is that we can make this a safe place in time for all the struggles we go through between us and the clients at the end of the day there is this natural like you guys care and I get that and I’m grateful to be here right but so we’re creating a safe place we’re building trust with the individual they have to go back into the unsafety of the world and this is where the social aspects come in because you know around a job you know we have you know clients come in I don’t want to be a burger flipper like who told you that’s the value of that job right as a society as a social aspect of this and what I’m getting at maybe all jobs are fairly valuable right and the individuals that are behind the counter taking our you know McDonald’s orders all that sort of stuff we as a society say well that’s not like kind of a job right and it doesn’t allow for that type of safety and they immersion back into it because now this is a thing I have to get through to get to that next thing that I can actually feel value and needed within at the end of the day but I think you know I’m gonna have to wax too philosophical about this but I’ve been in a taco you know Bell drive-through and like don’t totally love myself after going through the process but I do love some of the food or whatever but the experience of it matters if that person on the intercom gets on and goes what are you here for today man I’m gonna get you the best breed we’ve ever had and some excitement around that for all the viewers out there who’ve experienced kind of a drive-through atmosphere like that you’re like [ __ ] I actually feel really good right now you know in this moment and I’m connecting with somebody and they’ve made that Journey better and for that reason their job matters right and so I don’t get too political about it but in the social aspect of things this is what younger and uh these past guests that have been on Peaks celebrity and so forth and even ourselves at Peaks are talking about is that we can’t guarantee the safety but from a social aspect you never know who you’re talking to whether it’s a restaurant at a bank you know somebody might be really going through something in their life and how we treat them helps them move forward in their own process and journey and so this social aspect is probably one of the deepest lacunas of how do you fix that to support the individual once they get outside of here uh you know in that regard in other aspects of it as well too you know a family system that’s drinking now they’re out it’s Thanksgiving or whatever and oh I’ll just have a water like now we’re treating people differently and that’s awkward and that feels shameful and that the atmosphere is changing because I’m a part of it and so anyways that I just wanted to highlight as some of these social factors that are quite challenging for a person to transition into and I think that um one of the one of the things that you that you maybe think about is this idea of placing our value externally outside of ourselves like I am valuable because I have a good job I am valuable because I am normal like everybody else I am and uh because I fit in so having your value be basically decided upon things that you can’t control as one of the most empowering tools you can give somebody is the ability to actually just be able to you decide your value like it’s internal you carry it with you wherever you go that way no matter if you are you know performing brain surgery or or um you know giving you your Mexican pizza in the Taco Bell drive-through your value doesn’t change because it’s you’re carrying it you decide you you hold on to that it’s not something that’s ever outside of you it’s always something that’s inside of you and again and I think that’s when the the sort of spiritual existential component of the biopsychosocial model biopsychosocial spiritual slash existential model um becomes really powerful because you don’t and it gives people some it allows them to navigate really tough situations especially if they’re going back into the same environment it’s it’s a it gives you a little um it’s just a little something in your back pocket that allows you to be able to recalibrate when if you get a little bit frazzled so so to to take the viewers out here I think you know so let’s talk about because at Peaks we have an integrated model of care right where we nurture both as substance use disorders and mental health disorders at the same time within the same model but we’re also tacking on a lot of this you know biopsychosocial implementation throughout the duration of treatment so how how effective is this you know really and why and why are we trying to do so many things within such a limited you know time frame clinical officer yeah yeah curriculum guy yeah curriculum guy
to take your question like I think um this biopsychosocial model of care like it doesn’t say for addiction use or for depression like um implicit in this model is just this treatment of suffering that we have been talking about here at Peaks and um somebody who’s depressed needs just as much social support as somebody who is four months sober or four weeks sober from alcohol use um and again people depressed uh their bodies can become deconditioned due to lack of exercise and that sort of thing just as much as somebody who can’t get off the couch because they are drinking so much so um so really you know I think we we’ve designed a curriculum and continue to work to to perfect it not just in the clinical ones but you know from the approaches of all our departments to treat people um through this way through this lens and treat them as humans and to address the needs that brought them there and the behaviors or lack of behaviors lack of support and that sort of thing that brought them into our program and so um we we’ve talked about this I think the distinct the distinction between alcohol use disorder and other psychological uh diagnoses is artificial and it is based upon the history of our industry and also prejudices and so the alignment of the treatment of that um probably would be how all this would have started if that wasn’t the case that’s my response to your question damn Jason yeah that was really good actually yeah I was yeah okay and I just made it up
I mean people are complex right like we’re Dynamic we are um yeah this is wild like what we’re doing right now like life is insane it’s really really really crazy and I think that we just acknowledge that you know by acknowledging it you start to regain a sense of control you know change is really hard like it just is hard and ultimately um that’s what people are seeking so you give them all the tools that you possibly can some of them will stick some of them won’t but in the process you are also to Jason’s Point acknowledging them as like a valued worthy whole human being in this wild crazy world of ours yeah and um I don’t know there’s something very uh it just feels good to be able to see people as people you know it takes a lot of judgment away and allows you to kind of cut through the the BS and really get to the heart of things yeah but in the the challenges within it right like the biological right like if you’re not feeling well you can’t move into movement and movement is so important in our historical timeline as human beings to uh Wellness experiencing sunlight experiencing walks going out and doing something like a project like getting water for the tribe like these types of things have real internal value but if you’re suffering within a treatment episode you can’t access it you know some people come in and say something like well you know uh I’m here and I I only you know I need to work on my nutritional value that’s true and I guess what I’m pointing at here is the difficulties in approaching these Services because it’s difficult to contain everybody’s biopsychosocial elements you know within any given treatment episode and I think all treatment centers do what they can to address it but you know to have sort of the new nutritional salad bar we’ll call it of like this is how you’re going to eat this and you’re going to do I mean people are coming in Peaks they haven’t eaten sometimes in days you know let alone sleep and that type of thing so getting them biologically attuned nutritionally is like we’re just you know it’s like just eat first you know and then we’ll discover something like that um but if hunger is the real rooted need and I’m not in a psychological position to entertain microbes and macronutrients right then talking about it is going to be ineffective right at the end of the day so and I think this is where it gets more into that sort of holistic attitude of like you know approaching somebody in one context just is not going to work for the entire group and I think that’s what makes substance use or the treatment of substance use disorders and mental health disorders so complex at the end of the day because we have all of these resources right at Peaks recovery but you can’t just give it to all of them because they’re not only going to receive it in the same way and it’s the problem with or to be charitable to the other models right you know whether it’s 12 steps you know moral choice you know disease model or whatever these become restrictive ways of approaching treatment right because you’re taking an individual and you’re stating okay this condition is true because this model is true and so you’re moving somebody through it as a care but it’s restrictive because it’s missing the potential for all the other opportunities for why the person’s suffering right well and I think that speaks to the importance of individualized care you know like by meeting people where they are and not trying to push them through an algorithm you know it’s like oh you are this model go this way do these things and then you’ll be fine but actually recognizing that literally every single individual’s treatment is going to be different period you know but there are some there are some components and there’s some uh I don’t know there’s an arc to it right like you come in and I think the first the one thing that connects all of our treatment is just that it’s connection you start off with these like human connections and the first one is just the nurse saying hey are you hungry you know and then going and getting them food first one’s admissions actually oh yeah that’s yeah hey are you scared that’s basically what they’re asking yeah um do you do you want to not be scared anymore yeah and you get these sort of invitations to engage with the world in a way that you haven’t been able to in a long time and then you’re cared for you’re nurtured and by the end by the time you’re leaving you are actually just cooking food for the people there you know like you’re cooking for your housemates on a Sunday so you see this Evolution and then there’s all of the millions of things that happen in between there but there is a I think a a pretty consistent Arc that is built off of you know it’s like we said the the opposite of suffering is connection and so I think that that becomes a really crucial component as well yeah and you know maybe taking it out here you know we were talking about it at the office where we did the episode today it a person leaves treatment and says I feel good I feel great and they go back into the same environment um is one way to look at it another thing I’ve talked about a lot or we’ve drawn attention to is like well that place didn’t work for me because they didn’t work on the trauma the things what I’m curious is about is what we can leave the viewers with if if those are rooted internal things that are not being operated on I mean that’s why case management exists right we talked about the complexity of the biopsychosocial that if it takes two to three weeks just to work through the psychological associations of I know I have access to something that can help me you guys just took that away you know right off the rip and I’m debating between my how I feel physically and what I know can work for me psychologically and at the same time I gotta wait for these extra psoriasis and our eyes all these medications to kick in right we spend a lot of time negotiating the biological no wonder we didn’t work on the trauma right because we had to move through these phases of treatment so what can we share with the family systems and taking this out that when they hear this from their loved one how what can we do to encourage the best path forward because we’re we’re not going to go back into a treatment episode so you know you relapse you know in the process you didn’t work on the trauma that you believe is the cause of your uh suffering here and then you go back into treatment but again we’re in the same resistance of biopsychological because you were doing drugs for the last six months right and so how do we charitably get out of this kind of loop that it feels like right and what can we do to encourage families or Empower family systems probably more appropriately as they navigate some of these Loops that happen because statistically speaking especially for sud and this is not to you know promote relapse by any occurrences but the general averages are between two to four times but maybe we can have some sort of you know instead of this Loop take relapses to lapses and contain or maintain I should say sort of a directional approach to it so how do we how do we Empower family systems to keep leaning into the process without thinking none of this works so I’ll I’d like to answer that question first I think I think it’s a shift of mentality right when when somebody is in AAA and they get a chip and it says I have three years sober and then they go out and they have two drinks and they have to go to their next meeting and turn that ship in if you know and and get a new what they call Desire chip and they’re back at square one or Square zero actually and um that mentality says that that person failed it erased the the four years or whatever of recovery that they got and they are back just like somebody who is on their very first day of ever trying to get off of the drug and that mentality still permeates and in in kind of a medical type model like people with you know chronic illnesses like diabetes and that sort of thing it’s common for them to have spikes in their blood sugar at times and for their meds to stop working a little bit so they have to go get Hospital intervention for a little while and to kind of re-regulate and get get on the appropriate meds or or maybe um try a different program or new technology or whatever and that’s perfectly normal in the medical setting and it isn’t judged it isn’t like none of the other diabetes treatment worked it worked for a period of time served its purpose and now it just needs some refinement and so I’m not I’m not trying to downplay what a relapse does and what a lapse does and how devastating that can be but I’m also saying that it’s compounded by it wipes everything out and people just start from square one that the truth is somewhere between those two things right yeah because then you’re battling the idea of failure and the shame and the guilt and all of the things that have probably been at least to some degree motivating the behaviors that you’re trying to avoid yeah so giving um I think giving families a lot of Grace more than anything teaching them how to give themselves Grace um I don’t know I think working on the fear is really important and being very honest like you just have to be you know I’m a pragmatic guy I’m a realist and um it’s so interesting how much of our thinking is magical and so actually having like breaking that down and doing it in a way that is really compassionate and really actually normalizing it’s like this is going to be hard but it’s also okay that it’s hard like it should it don’t run away from the difficulty because then you’re actually running back into the problem so yeah and and for me I you know just for the viewers out there anybody watching this like consider what it is in your life to have a behavioral change right take anything like going to the gym in the New Year I’m going to lose weight this year like whatever those challenges are gyms fill up for January and then the memberships go away for the rest of the year right as a process I just got done running a marathon as you guys know a few weeks ago and it’s it’s imperative it’s crucial that you rest on the other side of that and let your body heal I mean it’s an intense activity and it does really mess up your body in a variety of different ways and in that regard though just sitting there knowing I can’t run because I got calf cramps and that type of thing was so challenging to sit still in that moment and just let my body heal and I’m talking about something that’s rather benign you know compared to a you know a 10-year addiction you know or something of that nature but at the same time it’s so challenging to change these behaviors and that feels like a positive behavior right you’re running you’re taking care of yourself in your body but at the same time I experience the real difficulty of just eating still and like avoiding going outside for a quick mile you know in that regard when we become conditioned in these things it is difficult to let go of the prior aspect no matter how important or healthy it is to change moving forward right and so if we’re all being charitable to Behavior change for ourselves and our own lives whatever that is how we show up in our relationships how we show up for you know our kids how we show up at work and professionalism and all these types of things uh and and causing us to change in the process and noticing how difficult that is I think we can be more charitable as a society to how difficult these processes are especially for you know individuals with psychological diagnoses like sud and mental health you know primary disorders so um in that regard keep loving on people people absolutely uh and uh and anything you guys want to add to that no I think that’s no that was great all right yeah okay yeah and Jason checked his watch I was like did you get a uh do you want to have some chats do you want to let us know what’s going on no yeah yeah my wrist has been ringing a little bit too so yeah yeah wow we just push it down yeah at work their watches ring differently than that’s for sure and with that folks uh I hope you enjoyed this episode of biopsychosocial stressors please take into account everything we’ve been talking about the complexities for what informs treatment how an individual moves through treatment and what it takes on the other side of a treatment episode to really discover something like a cure to discover Wellness in the process and this is going to look entirely different for each individual and if we go into this with a more you know sort of open heart open mind mentality I think we can discover in the process a better way to treat all of these individuals who are suffering not conscious individuals who arrive at Peaks but commonly speaking in the world we all have challenges and the better we show up for people I think the better outcome overall so enough with my politics uh it’s another great episode of Finding Peaks Brandon versus Chief Executive Officer for Peaks recovery centers taking this out finding Peaks at peaksrecovery.com Coopers I know is going to put some I’m missing it’s like information at findingpeaks.com something like that your thoughts questions ideas uh for these episodes we’re listening to you the viewers so continue to ask those questions this episode came about today from all of your thoughtful visits to our website and this biopsychosocial page in particular and on top of that we got the tick tocks we got the Facebooks the Instagrams all those types of things that can be a negative world to live in social media but on our social media it’s all positive we’re just talking about recovery and trying to get people well at the end of the day so with that thanks for joining us for episode 6922. we’ll see you next week

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Episode 93Peaks’ First Recovery StoryWatch Nowhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHWspNWrd8gListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Chris Burns brings on the first-ever graduate of Peaks Recovery Centers, Nik Darrah, who is in his 8th year of long-term recovery and still working in the industry. Chris and Nik reminisce on their meeting, what led Nik to Peaks, and how his treatment stay at Peaks set him up for a future of success. Nik shares vulnerable moments that shaped him into who he is today and brings the audience into his recovery journey.

Talking Points1. Introduction to Nik 2. Nik’s experience at Peaks 3. The importance of community 4. Seeing yourself in other’s recovery stories 5. Coping with substances 6. Meeting people where they’re at 7. Defining your identity 8. Celebrating life Quotes

“We didn’t get sober for our lives to be boring. Why would we get sober? So it’s how do you build that stuff in your life that you like to do that makes it worth it. That makes all the hard work worth it.”– Nik Darrah

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -93- Transcripts— ADD TRANSCRIPT HERE —

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Episode 92Debriefing the 2023 Winter SymposiumWatch Nowhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfyJswVjjDIListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Jason Friesema brings Lauren Atencio and Samantha Archuleta back to revisit their experiences at the 2023 Winter Symposium and share insights into how the information can help disrupt our industry and pave the way for brighter client outcomes. Through sharing experiences and takeaways from speeches to debating how to best integrate the information into the industry, our team brings an educational conversation to the show.

Talking Points1. Speaking on plant-based medicine 2. Looking into harm reduction 3. Models of care 4. Misdiagnosis 5. Misunderstanding codependency 6. The fentanyl crisis Quotes

“There are more relapses with cancer, diabetes, all of these different things; those diseases are constantly relapsing, so why do we vilify addiction relapse so much? Why do we vilify mental health relapse so much? When this is an actual mental health disorder, when it’s an actual physical disease, we’re actually discounting the idea of relapse when, no, that’s part of the process. So tell me how you need to be able to approach your recovery to feel like you have some autonomy, and you can take it on your own. ”– Lauren Atencio

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -92- Transcriptshello and welcome to another episode of Finding Peaks I’m Jason Frieza Chief clinical officer at Peaks recovery uh I’m very excited today to be joined by Samantha Archuleta IOP therapist at Peaks recovery and back again back again Lauren atencio Clinical Director of our men’s program and we are here to talk about um our experiences at the winter Symposium we just uh completed uh attending the winter Symposium here in Colorado Springs uh and it’s just kind of a conference where uh a fair amount of the focus is on Mental Health but most of it honestly is on addiction and we all had about three and a half days or so to attend as many sessions and have as many conversations as we could and so um we decided that today for finding Peaks we would just kind of talk through some of the things that we learned uh and some of the things that we experienced while we were participating so um first up uh the first event that we went to and the three of us were all there we uh we got to be a part of uh listening to a panel including our CEO and founder our CEO Brandon Burns talk about um uh the natural medicine um and um obviously we’ve had a lot of discussion on finding Peaks about the use of natural medicine and um and so I just kind of wanted to start off with you guys like what did you hear maybe knew from that discussion um on the panel were a couple of MD doctors a counselor and then um kind of a politician I guess if you will I like that title he did not like the title politician but it if it fits and he was a good politician all you know it’s very easy so um what did you guys pick up on I think the thing that stood out to me the most was um and I am going to butcher this probably but the contraindications between ssris and psilocybin um and how those who do take ssris they actually might not be able to engage in psilocybin therapy as effectively because some of those receptors are kind of blocking them and again I might be butchering this I don’t know all of the technical medical terms but it was just so interesting to me to really hear that you know the SSRI portion of it is actually taking away some of your ability to really engage with the psilocybin and not allow for you to really kind of engage in those processes I I thought that was really interesting yeah and I think I think hearing that from a couple of medical doctors actually and then the conversation I had with one of the panelists who’s also been on the show uh Kevin um really I what Struck it was what was striking for me is that um when we kind of pushed aside maybe some of the some of the excitement around it or maybe some of the Mystique around like taking uh psilocybin or something like that like this is you know pretty serious medicine yeah um and there are important considerations to have to include uh medication interactions and uh the other thing that Kevin was talking to me about too is like there it does open one up to potential Bad actors too and making sure that you have trustworthy people and and you know it’s likely most unofficial of good licensed people that operate underneath um a board of regulations and that sort of thing uh to operate with their license and so to me I think that was I think it was helpful because like I think we spend a lot of time talking about the hope of all of it and it is really exciting um and there’s limitations and I think uh to me it really was like this really needs to be taken very seriously too and it isn’t something then it’s just like you know like going to be like the 1960s or something so I’m Sam what did you hear I think one of the other kind of limitations that they spoke to that felt important was serotonin syndrome and the risk of even combining your SSRI with psilocybin or other of the natural medicines that are coming up and that a lot of doctors are saying you need to be off everything to be able to do that and that’s the scary thing for people on antidepressants to come off of those because for many people that saved their life and so to take that risk of coming off what saved your life is something that can enhance your life to such benefit is scary and at the risk of it not even working right we even talked about that right like talking to a client and they had been on ssris for a really long time and wanting to explore this process more but also just being really scared of like if I come off this am I going to be able to handle my emotions am I going to be able to regulate in a way that is appropriate for me because these medications have kind of helped me me stay at this Baseline and so I it was it was a really interesting thing because there is this part of us right that like don’t want a dog on medications at all but if we can reach into this industry and really go full force with the psilocybin the MDMA the academy and all these different kind of modalities that are starting to roll out what could we be doing right we I think we kind of put ourselves in a little bit of a like box with medications at times and again not bagging medications but maybe there’s more that we can be doing that we aren’t exploring because we’re just so heavily Reliant as a society on medications yeah I think that’s a great point and the other thing that um I had a conversation later in the conference too with one of my old mentors from 15 or 20 years ago and she was like listen I’ve done mushrooms and there’s no way you can tell me that those things are going to be therapeutic and um I had the opportunity to kind of talked about like the set and setting and like making sure that like it’s directive and and intentional and all that and so to me even just that little conversation feels helpful too to be reminded like this this is an exciting time but it’s also like time to have some caution as well so I think I went to another um panel discussion about harm reduction and I think this kind of falls into that discussion as well right um something that the speaker said that really stuck out to me is the one of the biggest downfalls that this field does is we don’t ask the client how they want to recover we just tell them how they want to recover right like this is what you need to do and if you don’t do it you’re gonna relapse and um the thing that was really cool is like why are we there he said that there’s more relapses with cancer diabetes all these different things those diseases constantly are relapsing so why do we vilify addiction relapse so much why do we vilify mental health relapse so much when this is a actual mental health disorder when it’s actual physical disease we’re discounting the idea of relapse when no no that’s part of the process so tell me how you need to be able to approach your recovery in order to feel like you have some autonomy and you can kind of take it on your own well and I think talking about psilocybin with ssris we we’ve pigeonholed people especially they don’t get to benefit from psilocybin now because we’ve done ssris for so long we’ve pigeonholed people to this way that we thought for the time was great and over here is this other opportunity for healing that some people aren’t going to have access to and I think that’s a scary thing to think about in the same sense of we’re going to tell you the right answer for now and there’s these other answers that are coming out that might be better yeah well I think I think so this this leads me to talk about uh one of the other talks that that we also the three of us went to which was about kind of the models of care and that was toward the end of the conference um and uh the presenter um who is a physician from uh the meninger clinic in Houston talked about um all of the models of care and he started talking about the first one he talked about was the moral model of care which means looking at substance use as kind of a moral failing like you are falling short and you are not uh doing good enough and you need to maybe repent and try harder and what I appreciate about his discussion is first of all I mean that is um the AAA model is rooted in both that and also the medical model of care and we can get to that in a second but like what I appreciate about him talking about is he was using it in in reference to uh one of his clients who had benefited from that who wanted to kind of seek a faith-based recovery that would use kind of that moral um language uh as a motivator for healing and Recovery and you know certainly would I hear that moral model of care like it hits a chord in me um that is uh well uncomfortable I’ll just put it that way and it’s certainly not a way that I choose to operate um but that doesn’t mean that my way is always right and and he did talk about that bias so like we can fall into our models of care and how we think about recovery um and become pretty attached to it but but his point of the whole overall thing was that all of these models of care have Merit as long as they’re kind of fit in uh with the appropriate client I mean that was one of my takeaways from that right I think our chief operating officer Clinton he actually brought up like it requires agility yeah on our end to be able to say this is what the client’s asking for this is how we meet them and then we can bring our model other models and I can pull on you and you who have different model approaches to help me fully see this client and meet them where they want to be met whether that be medical model moral model whatever they come from and meet them around that yeah and I think um we did do a finding peaks with Kevin uh franchiati a while ago and this like makes me think of what he said is that he went through the normal process with treatment he did the whole treatment thing right and he finally went to his family and said this is what I need I need to go do this kind of um this is going to be my process into recovery and they listened right so like where I think as an industry when do we stop listening when do we start listening when do we open up to okay moral model might work for you abstinence all the way but you know you might need a different kind of model there might be that self-medication model you know I am self-medicating because my whole self feels so disregulated I don’t know what to do with it and so being able I think it just goes into so beautifully like every individual client is going to look different and if we as a whole Peaks whatever continue to treat everybody the same then people aren’t going to get better yeah well suddenly um I think the it what feels like the most inclusive model is kind of what we are trying to embrace as an organization which is called the biopsych psychosocial um he called it spiritual we might call it experiential uh or existential sorry uh model of care thanks for it um care where we really do try to Encompass a fair amount of that like with mental health and with the body and then also with kind of that meaning and purpose component but like it does leave gaps it does um that that I think we need to be attuned to with our with our clients as well if they really need more of an AAA or or more moral model of uh care yeah well and I think even considering the medical model of some of our clients come in with disabilities and things like that and traditional outpatient inpatient isn’t actually formulated for minority populations in general and especially people with disabilities and so being able I think Peaks we do a pretty good job of being able to take what we’re working with existential all these other pieces and say okay let’s meet them here and I think that talk really encouraged me that we’re on the right track to do the right things for clients as the client wishes I think going into another I’m just jumping all over the place but another talk I went to which is incredible I wish I knew her name um but she presented on complex PTSD um and one thing that this brings up for me is diagnoses even right she kind of talked about how complex PTSD for those who don’t know actually really shows up a lot like borderline personality disorder and so a lot of people are misdiagnosed with borderline personality disorder when they have complex PTSD another thing she brought up which was just like crazy to me was that complex PTSD symptoms actually mirror a lot of the autism symptoms as well so then there’s this whole other discussion around diagnosis right if I have a client come in and I automatically say you have borderline personality disorder and I start treating that client for borderline personality disorder but they actually have complex PTSD I’m not treating them the way that they need to be treated so even diving deeper into like our diagnosis process how do we do that how long does it take us what labels are we putting on people and how do those labels affect affect their care right I think speaking to autism I have that background in autism that we speak about and having those overlap is actually scary because with autism there’s a very um typical and research way to treat that whereas complex PTSD there’s sonodus it we’re kind of figuring that out through the research now and the fear of misdiagnosing that and treating it appropriately um feels like it’s our responsibility to start to do the research and deep dive into that yeah I mean complex PTSD isn’t even in the DSM but it’s so huge within all of our clients and so how do we get more information on that when there’s not a lot of information on that how did how did she even Define complex like what makes PTSD complex a lot of it is attachment wounds so she it was really cool because she has said I’m not going to talk about trauma I’m going to talk about wounding because trauma is wounding so essentially with complex PTSD we had a lot of relational attachment wounds as children and therefore in our adult lives it’s harder to connect we might lash out more we might you know throw fits we have a hard time making eye contact we you know like all of these different things because essentially this attachment wound from childhood now has followed you into your adult self and you are just scared of the worlds everything is scary and you find your safe people but what happens when you lose those safe people um and so she really I mean she did a beautiful job at just kind of explaining how complex PTSD shows up within our clients and then also how do we treat those symptoms how do we actually just be there she that was one of her biggest things is like all my clients need is just somebody to talk to because they have so many attachment wounds in their lives that they don’t have somebody to talk to most of the time and so creating that safe space for our clients is so huge because complex PTSD is huge within Peaks I would say um yeah yeah and not just within people not just with the things everywhere well yeah yeah I think of like rupture and repair and therapy and if like we have a rupture with a client or within our staff we get to repair that and that’s part of healing those wounds and it feels scary in the moment and unsafe and insecure but when we can actually repair it it’s healing those like long-term wounds which helps us grow and be able to make better eye contacts lash out less have better connection
okay so then I’m going to Pivot back to the model of care just for a second because I I also went to a talk by Kevin McCully who was on with Brandon and I on this show um I don’t know a couple months ago I think and he um he had the video called pleasure unwoven which is uh pretty ubiquitous in the in substance use field and he he actually loves to kind of poke fun at himself for that video um and he went through kind of the bottle of care uh the medical model and how where the disease model came from for any diseases and The Germ Theory and all of that and gave all this great background um and one of the things he talked about which certainly kind of I found to be eye-opening was um kind of how little genetic predisposition plays into this that um he called it uh either like uh resilience genetic resilience so people that are less likely to become addicted or people that are a little more susceptible to it but he said it isn’t as common as you might think um and he even mentioned that um in in native people like we all think that there’s a genetic predisposition to it and he said that genetically there isn’t there there’s no predisposition to it which led him to talk about how he believes and he talked about on this podcast too but one of the biggest factors in um substance use recovery is actually just safe housing and and meaning and purpose and like that is certainly what um can be lacking at times for that uh particular culture uh for a variety of reasons and um and that’s what kind of propagates the alcohol use problem um for that culture and it isn’t doesn’t have anything necessarily to do with genetic predisposition I found that to be um really pretty interesting that is cool and something I’m going to keep talking about the complex PTSD stuff but something she kind of relating to this though is like well some of our clients will come in and be like I don’t really have a lot of trauma my my growing up was really good and then she’d be like okay well what was going on with your mom when she was pregnant with you so even looking at the in utero stuff that happens the in uterus stress and how if my mom loses her husband or something while she’s pregnant that’s going to take an effect on me even in the womb and I know that gets all like no I well he actually talked about this is the epigenetics right where it isn’t your DNA but like it’s these I’m gonna hit a picture and it’s way too it’s way over my head but yeah how like it isn’t like generational trauma and generational addiction and all that sort of thing it might not be like in our actual genes but it might just be kind of implanted in the genes and he he actually used the example of um hunger like people uh that were in concentration camps in World War II wasn’t their kids but their grandkids um had issues with diabetes and that sort of thing and they believe it’s the link to the epigenetics of people um coming out of uh concentration camps that’s crazy that is crazy well I think epgin X paired with then if mom lost her husband and now her attachment to men looks different baby’s attachment to men is going to look different and I think taking into account both of those factors we’re kind of doubling down on these things that are going to impact our attachment and our complex PTSD and then the way that we treat it another thing too is that we’ve we’ve actually been talking about this a lot too is like how do we talk about this stuff with our clients right like I think Lisa Smith one of our um she does amazing family work with reclaimed recovery really kind of talk to us all about verbiage in this big way right like okay so we have people struggling how do we put words to that show all right because if you have a woman who just had a baby and she had just lost her husband and you ask her okay what’s the plan she doesn’t know what the plan is she has a baby to take care of and a husband to grieve and so how do we even start to change like yeah this must be hard and so let’s sit together and make a plan even going into codependence right if we’re telling everybody they’re codependent you’re always telling people they’re wrong we are codependent beings we need each other to survive so when people say that codependent is a bad thing it kind of makes my screen skin crawl a little bit because we absolutely are codependent can it be harmful at times yes but then what do we call it then right we just call it like maybe uh an attachment issue instead of just putting these labels on it I mean that’s a great segue to a session at Savannah that I went to um by Dr Robert Weiss who unfortunately was sick so he had a he appeared by video which one but it was actually a great uh presentation and um it was called the myth of codependency and he actually challenges us to begin to use the word pro-dependency and really kind of relabeling like never using the word enabling just like Lisa talked about um and just really um it’s just the support because he he talked about kind of um the beginning of the term codependency actually comes from AA and the AAA big book tend to be written toward men uh who were alcoholics and then the women were the enablers and so it has kind of uh there’s an undertone to the word codependency that it is directed toward women and certainly a lot of the first books on codependency were kind of written in that direction as well so it has those underturned undertones and he talked he laid out this example of like you know like if my partner of 15 years got a cancer diagnosis and I quit my job and or I got an extra job sorry to pay all the bills and I took care of him and I took the kids to school and I did all the things while he was recovering or healing or battling cancer sick with cancer everyone would praise me right like it would be I would be put on a pedestal but when I do the exact same behaviors for somebody struggling with addiction even and mental health people call me an enabler and um and I thought that was a great every point to begin to challenge some of that that language of codependency that is meant to be kind of pejorative in a way or at least has become that I think codependency and enabling are the two words that are gaining traction with the negative connotation towards attachment and perpetuating this attachment isn’t always healthy and it’s dangerous and unsafe when in reality it’s exactly what many people need to heal is healthy safe attachment and if we can shift our language even at Peaks that we’ve discussed like shifting our language around those two words specifically to help us heal through attachment not be fearful of and cautious of well even looking about what enabling means like I think if you’re telling your mom a mom to a 20 year old not to enable her child anymore that’s all she’s done enabling is what we do we change our children’s diapers we you know we we enable them to live their lives or whatever that looks like and so if I’m sitting with a mom and I’m like don’t let him back in your house but then this mom is also sitting over here scared to death because fentanyl deaths are through the roof right right now that’s not good direction right I think we need to meet that person where they’re at like tell me what you’re feeling but I’m not going to tell you what to do because you’re going to do what you need to do but I do want to help you move through these emotions in any way I can and I think um I think you bring up such a great point and um as a parent like when when you have a baby right the baby’s fully dependent on you and then you know slowly but surely their little circle of existence begins to remove itself you know like they slowly become they get little aspects of Independence when they go to preschool and kindergarten and elementary school and go to a sleepover and like they be and have their own friends that you don’t know the parents and like slowly but surely but but then when it’s interrupted like there’s almost like a development of relationships if you will that there can be rupture in those developments where it gets kind of stuck in a place where I’m I’m caring for something that maybe should be a little bit more independent but um our words have power it turns out too and and these things um I don’t know they matter and so I did appreciate a lot of that the that new terminology well and I think teaching about boundaries gets the word enable can be removed we can say hey what boundaries do you need for you and to keep you safe and to keep you to be able to be attached to your child in a healthy way versus how do we get you to stop enabling your kid right and I think Lisa covered that so beautifully in her presentation of what does family recovery look like what does the family disease look like right family recovery is communication family recovery is saying hey I’m going to set this boundary with you and I’m going to explain to you why I’m setting this boundary to you I’m not just going to say don’t come to my home I’m going to say you know I have a lot of hurt I am still healing in my own recovery process being able to just puts words to what you’re feeling because I think we as a whole we get stuck in the content of things you did this you did this you did this and underneath it’s just all fear let’s talk about the fear because let’s stop talking about the enabling let’s talk about you’re scared and that’s okay to be scared your child is struggling and you just want to help them well speaking to the fentanyl crisis like your child could die yeah your child could not be back yeah to say like don’t do anything for them that doesn’t feel fair to ask a parent or ask someone that loves you and cares about you just to just like say no we but what does feel fair is what’s good for you what’s healthy for you to grow through that yeah Jason and I attended um so really uplifting it was really interesting and the woman presenting was was really great but it was fentanyl deaths in children and in El Paso County the rates have just like skyrocketed for fentanyl deaths in children we’re talking 15 months to 17 years old we’re not even talking the whole rest of the people that are here right and so this is a real thing that we have to talk about but we have to talk about it the right way because people are hurting and struggling and we just we need to help them not push them away yeah that was going to be the last one I talked about too is it was it was a session uh it was a medical examiner here in El Paso County came and presented literally um eight cases of children who have died in El Paso County over the last 16 months from fentanyl overdoses and she was a great presenter is very thorough and I’m sitting there like why am I here why am I listening to this but I learned some things about Fentanyl and then it it felt really important um to say this crisis is real and it isn’t out there these are these were children some I mean all the way down to 15 months old that died from fentanyl overdose um because of careless actions of course of adults around them and um that’s real and it’s it’s a real uh crisis and and to your point I think there were I think 138 deaths of the unhoused in Colorado Springs too and most of those were also from uh fentanyl overdose and um you know it just it just really hit me that this you know this disease if you will is really hitting the marginalized people or people who can’t protect themselves as well and it was a powerful uh reminder um of what we do too is that we really work pretty diligently to save lives um and I don’t really want to end this session it’s a toenail um you know all in all I think uh it is always fun to go and get around um people in the fields um I know uh we at Peaks we really are working diligently to disrupt the industry um but it’s so important to like it isn’t Peaks against the world either it’s we have to we get to hopefully lead a charge to disrupt the industry and and we can’t do it all on our own like there are so many people um that are suffering and and I think the more we kind of share ideas and have these conversations I mean we we all during talks we’re texting about how we can even keep course correcting our curriculum to make sure that it’s up to date and and doesn’t contain inflammatory language or um is kind of incorporating uh the latest research and that sort of thing which is um a fun and diligent process so um with that I I thank you both uh for joining me today um for those watching if you haven’t uh followed us yet on the social medias the Instagram and Facebook and that sort of thing please do um check out our Tick Tock account as well it’s always fun um and then you can scroll uh later and then um and then also find us on uh the iTunes Store as well so that’s it have a good one thank you

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Episode 91Connection and Belonging with Sebastian Junger and Steve IlardiWatch Nowhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG0nUKEwnQIListen NowDescriptionIn this very special episode, Brandon Burns welcomes back Dr. Stephen Ilardi, author of The Depression Cure and clinical researcher, to help welcome an exceptional guest, Sebastian Junger, investigative journalist as well as critically acclaimed author for works such as; Tribe: On Homecoming and Belonging, War, and Freedom among others. These three have riveting conversations about problematic factors in society causing social disconnect and alienation, societal observations of patterns with clinical depression, Sebastian’s incredible near-death experience, and the knowledge that came from such a traumatic experience, along with so much more! This episode holds a plethora of profoundly impactful information and enlightening conversation that will leave viewers with a deeper appreciation for connection, belonging, and life. To learn more bout Sebastian Junger, check out sebastianjunger.com for his collection of books and documentaries.

Talking Points1. The psychological motivation behind “Tribe.” 2. Societal observations of clinical depression 3. Adaptive behavior in human evolution 4. The human need to feel important 5. Connection vs. belonging 6. Finding your community or tribe 7. Experiencing the present moment 8. Sebastian’s near-death experience and The Hero’s Journey 9. The notion of “absolute freedom.” Quotes

“All you know for sure that you will have is right now. The past is already lost to you, and you have absolutely no guarantee that you have a future. But you do have it now. So, maybe don’t scroll through your social media all damn day. Maybe sit there and look around and be amazed at the world.”– Sebastian Junger

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -91- TranscriptsBrandon Burns chief executive officer for Peaks recovery centers so excited to be here today with you on this very special episode of Finding Peaks where we are joined today by Dr Stephen elardi clinical researcher at the University of Kansas he’s been on many different episodes of ours talking about his book The Depression cure his TLC model and so forth if you haven’t seen those go back in time check them out it’s great material and an excellent book but the other guest that’s on today is a very special guest to both Steve and I and we are excited to be having a discussion with him his name is Sebastian younger and he is an author and a journalist and so without further Ado let’s dive into it and uh get the discussion going so yeah thank you again both for being here you know Sebastian joining us from New York City Steve joining us from just south of Kansas City I believe uh in Kansas Southwest yeah Southwest Lawrence Lawrence Kansas over the fighting Kansas Jayhawks um which maybe a few few folks have heard of it’s important and uh brandenburg’s chief executive officer Peaks recovery centers here in Colorado Springs Colorado uh just uh you know I think first and foremost just want to say that uh you know the journey for how we got here uh you know I met Steve several years ago in 2017 at a conference and he’s talking about his book The Depression cure we ended up uh hanging out a bunch and I think we’ve befriended each other in the process I think we can call each other friends Almost uh maybe we’re texting in the background 100 yeah definitely I catch you as a friend Brandon so the the last time we did an episode together we you know we’re waxing philosophical in the background and Steve’s like hey I’m going to send you some books and I was like great I love reading and I love listening to books certainly and one of the books he sends me is tribe by Sebastian younger here uh join with joining up with us today and um just immediately floored by uh the writing the storytelling um you know even listening to the audio versions of the text and um you know you walking me personally through your experience variances within War you know as a journalist and the intensity of those environments filled with hardship and it inspired me in a variety of different ways I think you know tribe is a word we use often in our company culture here at Peaks recovery centers and forming that sort of those bonds and belongingness have just been really essential out of that inspiration and the three books that I’m most familiar with um of Sebastian’s work are a tribe on homecoming and belonging war and freedom I’ve personally read through those several times and I just learned a great deal about them and so thanks for you know bringing those texts into the world Sebastian first and foremost but to kind of bring these two worlds together for why I’ve got you know Steve on the call with us today as we talked about kind of prior to the episode in Steve’s book the depression cure he references out of the therapeutic Lifestyle the TLC model where he’s addressing the modern depression epidemic at its source he States the fact that human beings were never designed for poorly nourished sedentary indoor sleep deprived socially isolated frenzy paste of 21st century life hit me you could you could add screen screen addicted screen addicted right screen addicted as well too just to just to get it in there but um uh in also in the book tribe um it’s highlighted what the Journal of effective disorders concluded in 2012 as the source the economic and marketing forces of modern society have engineered an environment that maximizes consumption at the long-term cost of well-being and in effect humans have dragged a body with a long hominid history into an overfed malnourished sedentary sunlight deficient sleep deprived competitive inequitable and socially isolating environment with dire consequences both statements a mouthful but both very much connected in that way of things and so what I’d like to set kind of the stage for our viewers out there is the foundation of what we’re experiencing as the problem and primarily why these texts are being written in the first place and just hopeful you know to start here Sebastian to you know bring us forward obviously you place that uh that reference within the boat tribe for a reason and it it must have spoke to you in a way certainly that I think it speaks talking to the three of us in this room and I would just love for you to expand on that a little bit for the viewers today yeah so the idea for tribe came to me and the idea is basically this that some of the psychological struggles that veterans have when they come home um might be rooted in uh some kind of alienation rather than actually a disorder that they’re carrying themselves they might be having a healthy reaction to an alienating Society uh and so the idea came to me when someone said damn why why are vets so messed up when they come home why are they so messed up and I remember like of many guys in the platoon you know platoon is a 30 40 men it was all men in this case and they were in an area of hotly contested area in eastern Afghanistan called The Corn Gull Valley and I was with them off and on for a year and you know when the deployment ended I experienced this terrific Longing To for for that place I wanted to go back and I felt quite guilty about it because I thought how could you know how can you long for something that was so hard on everybody but then I found out that a lot of soldiers that I’d been with felt exactly the same way and one of them was like oh I go back there in a heartbeat I don’t want to go back to America are you kidding I go back to the cornball in a heartbeat they’re living on a Hilltop getting shot at every day no internet no communication with the outside world uh no cooked food sleeping on the grounds like tarantulas scorpions and no women no television no nothing I mean it was really austere and dangerous and they missed it and suddenly I remembered something that a friend of mine who’s long since passed away he was a lot older than me it was sort of a surrogate Uncle he was born out west he was Native American uh uh and uh he was born in a wagon and he grew up in a very traditional society and and he said he told me something I didn’t quite believe at the time he said you know all along the history of the history of the American frontier from Pennsylvania on West all the way through you know the Midwest and Texas all the way to California the the sort of white people were constantly constantly running off to join you know this is what he said he join the Indians join us Indians right and we Indians were never running off to join the white people and I and I never I was never quite sure if that was true I mean I like the idea of it but I was like is that really true as I started to research it and indeed it was a real concern along the frontier even Benjamin Franklin wrote a kind of despairing letter to a friend like why is it if we’re Superior Christian Society why is it that young young people young young people in the colonies keep running off to join the native societies uh the Savages as he called them and the reverse never happened and suddenly I put the two together like oh my god of course we’re social privates we love connectedness we love living in small groups where we have to we rely on each other for our survival and when you deprive people of that there’s a real loss there and of course what what I just described a moment ago is a platoon in combat it recreates our evolutionary past very very closely you expose young people to that um they respond in very positive ways that have a lot of genetic encoding in a lot of evolutionary history to it and then you wrench them out of there and bring them home to America with with all of its um alienation and all of its uh so the um fractured communities and trauma is the least of it I’m going to end with this this Peace Corps has the same problem one quarter of Peace Corps volunteers struggle with depression when they come home what they’re struggling with is the grave grave human loss of no longer being in a small community yeah thank you thank you for coloring that uh that part in uh Steve would you like to add to that at this time uh absolutely yeah so I mean it it for me the first thing that brings to mind Sebastian is so my background in training I’m a clinical neuroscientist brain guy and that’s what I did for the first 10 15 years of my career and then a magical thing happened I got I got tenure in my University which um you know is a controversial uh kind of event but but for me one of the magical things was it gave me the freedom and the permission to begin delving much more deeply into something that I just bumped into that really resonates with what you were saying I had just read the work so I’m a depression clinical neuroscientist focusing on major mood disorder looking at what’s happening in the brain when people get clinically depressed and writing for an audience of maybe 50 to 100 other scholars in the world those were the people that read what I was publishing but I had just um bumped into an anthropological account of the kalooli people in uh the highlands of Papua New Guinea and their modern day Aboriginal people largely hunter-gatherer they’re a little bit forging horticulturalists but essentially hunter-gatherers living very similar lives to those that our ancestors lived as you said we’re we’re you know we’re social primates and most of our ancestors were on this lifelong camping trip with their combat platoon as it were with their 50 to 100 closest relatives dearest friends sometimes it’d be 150 but you know somewhere in that ballpark yeah and Edward schiefelin who’s an American Anthropologist embedded with the kalooli people who number about 2 000 scattered through about a dozen or so different Clans and he was very keen on answering the question how is it that they lead such incredibly challenging difficult lives just like you were describing with with our young men in combat I mean these are folks without any modern medicine any modern conveniences with a high rate of parasitic illness a high rate of infant mortality a high rate of violent death in combat not within the group but between groups and um yeah what he discovered is when he applied Western DSM diagnostic psychiatric criteria to the kalooli he could only identify one marginal case of clinical depression out of two thousand and if you do the math on that their rate of debilitating clinical depression which is the leading Global cause of disability now on the planet and accounts for the majority of the one million deaths due to suicide on the planet their rate of depression is about one in a hundred ours is about 100x theirs despite the fact that they have so many depressive depressogenic thing things that would trigger depression in us don’t trigger depression in them and this had been gnawing at me for a long time and I was also aware of of a construct in medical anthropology called diseases I’m going to use the scare quotes Brandon I’m sorry I could probably reads terrible on video diseases of civilization yeah so illnesses that are endemic in modern affluent societies largely non-existent among Aboriginal groups diseases for example like atherosclerosis and type 2 diabetes and obesity and hemorrhoids who knew but they don’t spend a lot of time sitting and and depression fit the pattern and I said okay I’m going to leave my my everything I’ve done in my career to this point
um and set it all behind me and Chase down this rabbit hole and this mystery why because since 1990 we’ve had a 400 increase in antidepressant use in this country and it hasn’t moved the needle one bit in terms of lowering the societal burden of clinical depression in terms of lowering suicide in terms of lowering the extraordinary suffering that we’re seeing unfold in millions and millions of lives and so that’s what inspired me to begin thinking about clinical depression not as a chemical imbalance which is a good formula for selling drugs if you’re big Pharma right and by the way I’m not I’m not Democrat if any viewers or listeners are on a medication I’m not saying that they can never be helpful they sometimes can but the fundamental underlying problem with depression goes deeper than so-called neurochemical imbalance the in the the deeper level is we were never designed for this and when I stumbled across Sebastian youngers amazing book tribe I couldn’t put it down I was like this is exactly it just in in in every page I was seeing Echoes and resonances of of my own work and thinking yes the problem of post-traumatic stress in our combat veterans is mirroring in so many ways the problem of clinical depression clinical anxiety in our civilian population
May Amazing Stories amazing facts I’m guessing the kalooli I think I remember the word to be that’s right k-a-l-u-l-i clearly I I’m guessing that suicide is not a big factor in their in their society absolutely not yeah absolutely now yeah people that have killed themselves I mean I really shouldn’t I mean I mean and they’re all from very affluent segments of our society absolutely now the caveat I want to put on that is there have been many Aboriginal groups who’ve been forcibly transitioned onto reservations and I spoke with Kim Hill who’s a a very well-known Anthropologist with the ace or the akae people of um the Amazonian basin and they’re they’re lovely people but most of them have have been forcibly resettled on reservations and no longer have their traditional hunter-gatherer way of life and many of their old Warriors have now developed PTSD right in in middle age and old age where now they’re reflecting back on their combat histories and they don’t have that supportive context and a sense of purpose and belonging and in that sense of disconnection and emptiness they are developing post-traumatic stress and and depression and some do indeed get suicidal right right that makes sense terrific I appreciate you coloring all that in uh for us uh Steve uh always always brilliant and and focused in your words uh and and with that uh just kind of inching It Forward here a little bit uh whether it’s in the book uh fire tribe war or Freedom uh again text I’m most familiar with these books seem to be inspired by the connection and belongingness that you observe Sebastian during your on the ground accounts among environments of extreme hardship and I’ve I’ve shared with the viewers out there many times already and certainly within my you know company culture you know one of my favorite you know quotes right out of the introduction of your texts in tribe that says humans don’t mind hardship in fact they thrive on it what they do mind is not feeling necessary modern society has perfected the art of making people not feel necessary and it’s time for that to end and so you know moving through these texts and and your accounts of being in these platoons and these really these environments filled with hardship there’s belongingness within the environments of hardship and then stories of the tree troops you know going home for leave or whatever the case might be and then they they’re Desiring to come back to the experience of hardship but if we were sitting down just with anybody or it feels like I don’t want to be too broad about it but most people in my experience as they would say war is something I don’t ever want to be a part of yet we have military Interventional individuals Desiring to get back to the boots on the ground experience versus re-engaging or integrating within you know our society and you know whatever way that is in that regard and so just curious if you can bring the viewers a little bit closer through uh some examples of those shared experiences of kind of that boots on the ground belongingness that you’re seeing and that desire to return to something that seems like most of us would never want to be involved with yeah so one way to think about it is that the way that Evolution quote got us to I mean it doesn’t work that way but basically the the reason we have adaptive behaviors is because those behaviors feel good and we do things that make us feel good and the Adaptive behaviors that feel good survive as genetic traits and the maladaptive ones don’t so pretty much with human behavior if something feels good you can assume it’s adaptive sex feels good it’s highly adaptive without it you don’t pass on your genetics right eating food when you’re hungry ditto one of the things that feels very very good is connecting to a small group of people and connecting in a powerful emotional way and one of the things that feels really really good is being necessary being helpful to that group right and you can watch the oxytocin levels rise right it’s like when you hit the target with the bone arrow you can see the dopamine go up like you know so clearly those adaptive behaviors are reinforced neurochemically and most assuredly helped with our survival right so think about humans we’re social primates right but we’re unbelievably defenseless like we don’t have claws we don’t have sharp teeth we can’t climb trees very well we can’t run very fast I I mean we’re like children in the wilderness right relatively speaking right compared to other uh apex predators and other mammals and um but so what we have is our Unity right we have the fact that we will function deliberately uh as a consciously as a group right and that is because humans do not survive by themselves in nature they die almost immediately right not a virtually all of us I mean you could drop almost any American off into the Canadian wilderness with the wife of wife a knife and a pack of matches
and and he or she or she right like and and so but we survive in groups and so when you when you look at I mean the sort of the the pity of modern society and I’m listen up all four modernity in a lot of ways right it’s brought amazing things to human consciousness medical advances I’d be dead if there if it were not for modern society for modern modern medicine um it’s capitalism is associated with a lot of good things including uh human rights right so so I just want to acknowledge that before moving on uh to say that the downside of all this uh technology all this uh mechanization uh is that we don’t need each other for our daily survival I mean wherever you live when you wake up in the morning and look around and the people in the houses around you or the apartments around you you’re not depending on those specifically those people for your survival right they didn’t help you build the house you live in they didn’t gather the food you’re about to eat and they’re certainly not helping defend you from the enemy so the enemy come right that’s all been outsourced in a very very efficient way that depends on a huge supply chain and it’s all good the downside is you don’t really need anybody and just so think about that offense with this think about if you’re in a group that need you your survival depends on being part of that group and if it needs you you can be pretty confident the group isn’t going to get rid of you right it’ll take care of you because it needs you you’re the guy that knows how to make arrowheads right like so they’re not going to get rid of you they need arrowheads right if you’re not needed on some level even in modern society if you realize that Society does not need you if you’re not being productive and helpful in some senses your safety is now in danger because you you’re the group doesn’t need you then you’re you’re dead weight you’re right they’re just carrying you and that makes people very very anxious and very insecure and as soon as you give them a situation where they’re needed a platoon in combat right or a disaster the Blitz in London I mean the the English got bombed for six months straight every night practically by the German Air Force in World War II they lost 30 000 civilians right I mean we lost 3 000 people in 9 11. 10 times that number right and people buried alive under the rubble et cetera Etc awful everyone’s sleeping in the tube stations but what happened was the common person became necessary to their society people were helping us save the wounded they were doing everything they could for the war effort and it was a social leveler which also feels great right after agriculture it’s a hierarchical economic system started with a few people at the top most people on the bottom that’s not a hunter-gatherers Society is a very egalitarian and uh so so what happens in a disaster is that everybody’s everybody’s sort of even right like I mean they I looked at an earthquake in in uh in Italy in the early part of the 20th century and there’s one it was the earth in avanzano that killed over 90 percent of the population in a minute right they’re basically hit by a nuclear weapon right and the people that actually survived it had to wait four or five days for help to get to them and one of the survivors said it’s an amazing quote I’ll finish with this the disaster gave us what the law promises but does not in fact deliver which is the equality of all people social class was completely erased for a little while during that disaster so of course people are nostalgic soldiers civilians anyone who lives through a disaster or even a hurricane in this country and you’re help you’re helping with a chainsaw clear your neighbor’s driveway like that all feels great and so that that kind of communalism can happen even in a modern society you never know tomorrow morning when you’re going to be needed and when you are people often look back on those terrible quote terrible days as the best days of their lives yeah yeah I I think you you’ve put your finger Sebastian on on a on a really important principle and and if you’re amenable I’m gonna see if I can broaden it even just a little bit because I I don’t know that that as a licensed psychologist I would want to prescribe for the entire population hey what you need is to get yourself a lot of trauma a lot of Crisis a lot of life and death um like you I want to have the best of both worlds I I there’s a lot about modernity that I I I think is worthy of celebrating and that I’m really fond of but I think there’s a lot that that we have left behind from The ancestral past a lot of wisdom a lot of healing and protective habits that maybe we can reclaim and weave back into the fabric of 21st century life so that maybe in some sort of hybridized way we can have some of the best of both worlds and one of the things I think you’ve got your finger on the pulse of is the broader principle that every single one of us needs to feel like we matter like we are a part of something bigger than ourselves and that we’re deeply connected and that we deeply belong and the the easiest way to see that unfold like you said is in a situation like our hunter-gatherer ancestors face like a combat position faces where it’s like hey if you are I mean I don’t have you all ever been out hiking like in Grizzly territory where um I mean this happened to me a few years ago in um in Yellowstone and I’m out on a trail and and as I’m getting off the trail I see a sign I’m by the way I’m with my wife so it’s just the two of us and I see a sign um there is a mama Grizzly who has adopted two orphan Cubs she has four Cubs she’s ridiculously aggressive don’t go on the trail well we have been on the trail and so I started doing some research about we just got lucky um what is these the the the smallest group of humans um that has never been attacked in any sort of you know recorded uh uh grizzly attack and apparently Grizzlies will not attack based on the research that I saw more than a group of more than four humans so if you’re out hiking they they just you know they’re just using this crude heuristic of like uh that’s a big group of humans so just adding another warm body to the group makes it safer every person gets safer well guess what primates like our closest primate covens the cousins the Champs when when a group is plotting an ambush if they see a certain critical threshold of three four five they’re like ah let’s call it off it’s too dangerous too risky there’s safety in numbers and we feel it at such a deep Primal level when survival is on the line if we are just another warm body that’s part of a group we know at a very Primal level we matter we belong just by virtue of our presence but then as Sebastian said if you’re in a small hunter-gatherer group say you’re in a group of 50 you don’t even have to worry about contributing just because you belong it’s also going to be the case that you’re going to be the best person or among the best at several different things that that the group values you’re going to be among the best at finding a fresh source of water among the best at you know weaving the roof of a temporary shelter or you know whatever hundreds and hundreds of different skills and things that people would need in a small group and so everybody gets to be valued well the Dilemma of 21st century life in the affluent West is no matter how good you are at anything there’s always going to be somebody better right even if you’re in the in the one percent or the one tenth of one percent there’s always somebody better no matter what it is that you’re great at unless you’re LeBron James and even there LeBron’s 38 now you know uh and and you know no offense Brendan but sometimes when people get to be 38 you know
or sometimes when they’re 59. um but um the the point is that what we see in the modern world is you don’t have to be in a combat platoon to feel like you belong necessarily many of us get that feeling from participating in something that is Meaningful and valued I just walked out of a classroom of 270 students an hour ago and we were all in this conversation together and we’re studying psychological disorders and they’re in it and they’re doing the readings and they’re supporting each other and you know and we’re part of our own little tribe um and as ephemeral as that is as temporary as that is it matters and um and and many of us are lucky enough to find that in 101 different ways different places in our lives where we know that we matter but one out of every four Americans has none of it one out of every four Americans will tell you they don’t have anybody that that counts on them they don’t have any role and we see these deaths of Despair especially for working class men where you know they feel like no but they have no status they have or minimal status nobody values what they do they’re not earning enough they feel like to really necessarily support a family um right and and so we see a hundred thousand overdose deaths last year in the U.S 50 000 suicide deaths um and disproportionately concentrated among people back to Sebastian’s Point who feel like they don’t really matter they don’t really count um and those are the folks that we’re just we’re we’re leaving behind and I think we could do better absolutely yeah thank you for coloring uh that that in as well too uh Steve and uh it brings us right to the Cliff’s Edge of the of this transitionary moment for the questions for uh Sebastian so very much appreciated but you know given your experiences Sebastian and observation of how a combat platoon provides Soldiers with extraordinary feelings of belongingness despite what looks like quite a bit of diversity on the surface you know for example different cultural backgrounds uh they you know the soldiers come from different geographies political ideologies and so forth um but they have a shared Mission ethos and so forth um what do you see are the lessons um that you would like for Americans to draw from that and what are the the principles that might be generalizable to the broader Society you know civilians um you know those struggling with mental health addiction you know kind of on where we’re working from here at Peaks uh workforces and so forth uh and how can we in a day-to-day life work to promote such bonds of connectedness um in a way that is unfamiliar to us because we don’t have access to that you know uh that platoon type environment of those communal type events so I know there are three questions buried in there but um uh hopefully uh you can set us in the right direction here yeah so I mean it is tricky I mean we’ve been having a conversation that’s basically been sort of diagnosing a problem by referencing our evolutionary past we used to live like this now we like live like this one poor people are depressed it’s probably because they need a sense of coherence that comes from adversity but as we agree we don’t as we you know we want we we don’t want we don’t want to subject ourselves to to adversity simply to feel like we belong to something right I mean that’s like that that doesn’t make sense so how do we how do we have the Best of Both Worlds how do we feel uh how do we have the the buffering effect of inclusion the buffering effect against sort of psychological struggles of inclusion of being hard included as part of a group without the adversity that that requires group participation right and so so in a way you have to sort of trick Evolution you have to sort of like make you have to trick our our our our our wiring like let’s we’re going to try to live as if as if we are desperately needed by this group even though thank God we’re not right thank God we live and stay for easier circumstances but how can we make it feel like we’re we’re intensely needed because if we do then we’ll feel intensely good so that’s the that’s a that’s a it’s a lot to ask but I think it can be done I mean I think sports teams go a long way towards creating that feeling of solidarity and participation and look it doesn’t matter who scored the goal we scored the goal and we beat that team right you know I mean that that is a great feeling they’ve done studies where women young women in college who participate in team sports go on to do better in life in all kinds of ways particularly economically right so so I think Sports is good I’m an atheist but I understand that church is an amazing sort of communal event that I think Taps into a lot of those behaviors uh in my opinion as an atheist unfortunately it also can come with a lot of sort of shame-based like ideological um teachings that make people feel bad about very human choices and very human desires so I you know just you know just just for the record like I think for me as an atheist there’s a downside to some of the church church teachings but what’s up and I’ve been to church and and you know you can go to church and not believe in God and have a very good time there right I mean I was at a sort of black Neighborhood Church in in in Baltimore with just an incredible bad I mean incredible musicians and singing and that the neighborhood feeling I mean the sort of community feeling the very poor neighborhood and the feeling I had in that room was like oh my God if I lived in Baltimore I’d be here every every Sunday morning right I mean it was just like a drug it was amazing right so so there are those things um and but I would but and you know there’s the workplace right I mean the workplace is a community and one of the problems with the workplace is that it can be hierarchical in some sort of nasty ways and so when sometimes corporations bring me in to talk about how do we make the you know x-corporation feel like a tribe because everyone knows if you feel like a tribe you’re going to fight harder and you’re going to do better and you beat the other tribe and that’s what it’s all about which I you know I get it you know that’s the game right so and so you know what I say to them is okay there’s a few things that would really help and I so I in my book Freedom I looked at Underdog groups that were able to overcome a superior enemy and numerically Superior or technologically Superior enemy the ukrainians are doing that now with the Russians the months of negrons did it against the Ottoman Empire the Irish did it against the British after the Easter rising in 1916 the American labor movement really did it in the 1920s and on uh uh against the government and corporate interests in the National Guard like it can be so I looked at the common elements and so those common elements of course go to a very strong sense of tribal identity and um they are you need leaders who are willing to die right and in the sense of a modern Corporation you need leaders who are willing to take a hit make a sacrifice for the good of the of the company so when you have corporations where the the top docs are getting you know multi-million dollar urine year-end bonuses while laying people off because there’s a downturn I get it like that’s business go for it but don’t don’t imagine you’re going to create a sense of tribe there you’re not you’re not leading a company you’re running one right which is a way to go through life again it’s not for me but like that’s that first of all you need leaders that are willing to be self-sacrificing and then you need uh sort of peer accountability like the soldiers one of the reasons they clean their weapons all the time was because their peers would say hey man clean your weapon like if we got if we get overrun in your gun jams I’m dead like clean that thing right so peer pressure for for for high performance it’s very very it’s much more effective than top-down disciplinary pressure right um and in the case of many of the small groups that have out fought larger larger forces the involvement of women is really really crucial uh in the labor movement um I mean for many many reasons but like in the labor movement in this country what they figured out is is if they put women on the front lines of the of the protests the National Guard didn’t know what to do they were not willing to hurt women right and completely confused the sort of power structure and and uh this one in in Lawrence Massachusetts in 1912 is one frustrated police chief said uh he said one one good cop can handle 10 men but it takes 10 cops to handle one woman and women create a sense of moral legitimacy to have movement as well and so so you know what I would just say is if you involve yourself in group in groups that have those components you’re probably doing pretty well and finally and I I well I promise and with this I’ve been asked many times how do you feel like you’re a big part of the biggest group which is the United States you’re an American citizen how do you it’s almost 400 million people how do you feel what do you have to do in your life to feel necessary to feel um uh to feel admired to feel um like you have a role to your contribution it’s the wealthiest most powerful country in the world and there’s 400 million like what do you what can you do to feel do you have that feeling of oh I belong to this right and these are symbolic steps but symbolism is quite powerful and don’t knock it so I would say there’s three things you can do you must vote you have to vote right the nation needs you to vote like it needs soldiers in war it needs voters in peacetime and in war like we will not survive without people voting it’s one thing you can do that makes you part of this whole and you are needed right um machines can’t vote computers can’t vote only humans can vote right jury duty it’s the only thing keeping us from tyranny right I mean one person cannot decide the fate of another person in a system with jury duty like no small town sheriff no president no Union boss nobody can decide someone else’s Faith robots can’t do it computers can’t do it you need humans in jury duty right and you are part of the fabric of society and God forbid if you’re charged with something you didn’t do you will want a jury duty you don’t deserve something you yourself are not willing to do for others so um served jury duty and finally uh donate blood robots can’t do it computers can’t do it the scientists can’t create but only humans can create blood and it’s free like within a week you have all the blood you gave you have back in you and someone’s someone in the ER is going to survive because you gave what it makes you part of the human race and part of this nation and without it God forbid there’d be terrible terrible loss and suffering in this country my life was saved by two years ago I almost died of a kind of freak medical occurrence I had an aneurysm that ruptured in my abdomen a very freak thing random like and I blend out into my abdomen and I was saved by 10 units of blood donated by 10 people that I’ll never know who they are and now I would give blood as much as I can as much as they’ll let me right and it’s so it feels so good you’re part of something so sorry about the long sermon but but it but it’s you know it’s important stuff and it’s complicated and it’s hard to it’s not easy and obvious it’s hard yeah no I I appreciate it and I want to I want to get Steve’s a side of this real quick but it you know to one of the bullet points that you know we’ve talked about part of the episode it feels easy to take a global view and say something like well interdependence is essential because we only have one planet a shared environment Etc and out of that we ought to come together however it feels like most Americans and you know cannot you know fortunately unfortunately relate to the global view right we’re we’re hard working we’re moving fast and quickly we’re not you know generally engaged in kind of a community so who has time for the lofty goals here and you know so the question becomes then how do we act locally and how can we be of service in a way that doesn’t obviously bring about you know bring me anything other than a sense of purpose and belonging and how else will you know useful can I be today and um and I and I think you’re spot on there you know at least with those particular three examples those are three extraordinarily important ways though we are separated as a community that we can contribute individually toward the community with a sense of you know sort of purpose like when I drop off the ballot you know for example in the mailbox and send it off that feels really good like a sense of purpose like I said something I cast my vision with other Americans in line doing the same sort of thing and giving blood is another distant but connected way of giving back to the community in a very selfless action as well too that visibly in front of us today saves lives in that regard and so you know we’re going from this kind of global view these these well-written texts text into something where we can actually locally produce it and find that meaning and belongingness in a really important way and so I think the tangent there was important Sebastian because the answers are not always imminently obvious but at the same time I think there we can access them in its conversations like this that can be of service to those who might be floundering a little bit in the process of discovery for community and connection so Steve if you want to add any thing to this at this time yeah I’d love to weigh in with just one more extension maybe um because I’ve always got that clinical hat on and as Sebastian was talking the the the research study that popped into my head and I’ll bet you both heard of it it’s called The Harvard study of adult development sometimes called the Harvard happiness study and it was launched 80 years ago by researchers at Harvard who recruited three cohorts of undergraduates and then matched Community controls in Cambridge and began from age 18 1920 tracking them bringing them back every few years to look at their psychological development their their life outcomes their health they eventually started doing all kinds of Biometrics and brain scans and yada out of it toward the end of these uh men and women’s lives so they tracked them all the way into their 80s and 90s and now I think there are maybe four original participants in in that are centenarians um they started focusing a lot more in late life on overall quality of um well-being and happiness and life satisfaction and one of the headline findings that um really warmed my heart was that ultimately as people enter into the latter stages of their careers um or raising kids and and Beyond what predicted their level of satisfaction and happiness was not their achievement not how far they made it in their careers not how famous they became and several participants did become you know somewhat famous uh not as famous as Sebastian but you know pretty pretty famous and and you know they they didn’t write The Perfect Storm but but um they did really well and what predicted their happiness was was Far and Away the single biggest variable was their social ties but I want to be really careful here because we have to I think disentangle we think about social ties or social support to disentangle connection which often has to do with our most emotionally intimate meaningful friendships and relationships with families spouses children siblings parents and so forth and belonging to a tribe belonging to a group so connection versus belonging and what I loved about Sebastian’s work is he put a spotlight on belonging that had never been there in in my opinion in our culture that was so necessary but I don’t want us to lose sight of the fact that connection in many ways has these very Primal Echoes back to our hunter-gatherer days if you think of a combat platoon right which kind of in some ways approximates a hunter-gatherer band you’ve got whatever 30 50 100 individuals but it’s comprised of smaller little family like units yeah right um squads squads and um and that’s where you’re talking about banza brothers where you know literally people will lay down their lives for one another often um without flinching these are these are my brothers um in the way that hopefully we would all think there are people in my life I would lay down my life for without even like no questions asked wouldn’t even think twice about it um and what we find is that that level of emotional connection and intimacy is extraordinarily protective against the slings and arrows of Outrageous Fortune so when a medical crisis hits you know like Sebastian goes through this this freakish tragic aneurysm um and then makes this remarkable full recovery um when we have when we’re blindsided by failure and and loss and setback it’s those intimate connections that are even more protective than belonging to the tribe now that they both matter for for sure um but I feel like for many Americans even if they fail to find their sense of their people in say a church group or um you know they’re lucky enough to be part of some sort of a sports team or some other team or they’re I mean I worked for a while on a medical unit at Duke Med Center and there was a really strong sense of tribe among the providers on this unit like we were just we were all in and it was it felt like it was literally life and death you know not for us but for the people we were caring for um it was extraordinary the the bonds that form there but but I just want to put on the viewers and the listeners radar the idea that when we are meaningfully embedded in the lives of our very closest friends and family that it has a primal Echo it’s we’re not literally involved in a life or death sort of you know in other words our presence doesn’t literally matter for their survival their life or death but emotionally it still feels like it does because for hundreds of thousands of years it did does that make sense yep in other words emotionally there’s a vestigial Echo of the life or death Stakes we feel like those connections are a matter of life and death emotionally they are psychologically they are but they’re literally not so much anymore although our brain still thinks they are how about that um and and so I I just really don’t want us to lose sight of the fact that even if we haven’t found our people yet um you know that bigger tribe we can still get so much of the psychological benefit from our Squadron as it were and I think we should all be looking to find who is you know who’s in our Squad uh if we don’t have one I think one I’d love that I think one way to phrase the question and figure out who’s in your squad is to sort of ask yourself if there were a crisis who I who do I think would stick with me right right and uh I mean one of the interesting statistics that came out of 9 11 was well first of all that um Vietnam veterans who had PTSD said that there are symptoms declined after 9 11. in New York in New York City yes Vietnam that’s in the New York area said their symptoms declined after 9 11. you’d think it would trigger that right it was the opposite there was a feeling of oh my God we’re needed like it’s game time what are we going to do right that wasn’t the last attack does it another one’s coming you know whatever so but the other interesting statistic was that the um a lot of people got divorced after 9 11. I think it was a realization while it was a crisis that I just figured out that my wife or my husband actually isn’t in my squad like yes right like it took the crisis I and I I I also want to add that that one of the guys in the platoon I mean so in the platoon yeah there was about 40 guys 50 guys something like that uh there were three platoons in the company in the Cornwall Valley so around 150 maybe pushing 200 men and so so the feelings among the guys was you know we would risk our lives or definitely our squads right we would die for our squad for anyone in the platoon and really extending into the company because they basically won’t have proof that you could know all the names of everybody even if you didn’t know them well or even like them particularly they were sort of in the group right yeah on the company once you got to the Battalion level uh like and once you go to the Brigade level 3 500 people you know if something bad happened to the Brigade like they lost their aerial surveillance blimp to a in a hurricane in a thunderstorm it’s a lightning and everyone in the platoon thought it was hilarious like oh my God Brigade lost their blimp so one of the guys said to me we were on an ambush and it was a lot of time to kill because we were waiting for the enemy that never showed up and and uh and we were chatting he said you know it’s funny there’s there’s guys in the platoon who straight up hate each other but we would all die for each other yeah I love that that’s belonging right belonging doesn’t require love right I mean it doesn’t right my individual love the other thing that would happen is that there were guys who were like really brothers in the platoon right I mean like they really were really really really really close so both of those components combined to make a very strong healthy sort of human Fabric in the platoon and then imagine those guys suddenly going home and they’re not in the middle of any Matrix whatsoever certainly not in the middle of a matrix of anyone who would die for that imagine how scary that that is absolutely yeah the contrast there so I’m going to return to that Harvard study um uh happiness study because I’m going to tell you the the best predictive variable for happiness for people was one particular question at least I and I hope I’m not misrepresenting the study but my understanding is there was one question which was I’m paraphrasing and you can both think about answering this for yourself and I’ll do the same how many people and give me a list you don’t have to give me your list but they asked for lists list the the people who you could call at three in the morning in a medical crisis or some other crisis three in the morning and they would drop anything without thinking they are there for you no questions asked three in the morning um which is kind of echoing nicely I think Sebastian some of what you’re saying right so in other words now when it might be a matter of life and death at Great personal sacrifice and inconvenience you’re going to give up your night’s sleep you’re going to drop everything you’re just going to show up take that person to the ER be with them God only knows what you’re stepping into when you get that three in the morning call and we’ve all had it right and we counted a privilege um there were many people in the study who said I have nobody wow you know I have friends I’m not there were people who couldn’t even list their spouse wow again to your point there are people who went through covid and learned like hey I can’t count on my spouse yeah to be that person for me um just like they went through 9 11 and learned they’re you know there are those of us who are lucky enough you know we’re going to run out of fingers and hands when we think about how how blessed we are with the different people in our lives that you know um or we think about the number of people that we would drop everything for if it came to it um but that I I don’t know I think it it speaks both to the fact that we can differentiate between connection and belonging a bit but at a certain point quantity has a quality all its own in other words if we have a big enough group then all of a sudden we do have not just connection but we do have our people you know yeah and what’s interesting about modern society is that for most of human history the people that would go on your list would probably live in pretty close proximity to you
now modern society you have that list I have that list while you were speaking I racked up about eight or nine people you know not including my immediate family but uh and um but they’re not part of my daily experience they don’t live in my neighborhood I mean they were getting the car and drive 400 miles to get here right they’re not part of my life right the one’s there but so imagine if you go through your life with that group of people like not only do you have that group but you see them every day like imagine imagine what that’s like like of course you’re not depressed you know what I mean of course right of course that’s human that’s that’s human existence until like yesterday exactly right yeah I know that that’s that’s a really lovely Point um and it takes me back to um an incredible experience of community that I had in college where there was just a group of us you know sort of it sounds ridiculous to say it but it was a little bit like the TV show Friends where it was a group of about 10 of us uh men and women that were just extremely close we just loved each other would hang out all the time had this sort of community and we’re still 40 years later in really really close touch but nobody lives anywhere near anybody else and now we you know we’re in we’re in contact all the time and it it echoes back to this time when we did all share the same physical space yeah and it’s still very nourishing in that way but it’s sort of nourishing in this way of of echoing back to the in-person reality and then of course you know we’ll get together and have a little reunion every now and again but but um yeah I I think you’re really on to something important we need to have people that are part of our day-to-day face-to-face as the kids would say IRL you know in real life um experience as well as maybe some of those lifelong bonds of folks that are halfway across the planet now The Gamers call um the world that we all live in uh that they don’t actually but everyone the rest of us live in they call it the meat world and and I love it I love it yeah you do you need some meat world right like and the thing is you met your friends in college where you know because you’re in college together you were put physically into a kind of tribal setting right like seeing each other in the mornings you know the evening you know wherever like you were the dining hall yeah exactly right and facing us you know a sort of uh similar and sometimes shared struggle of academic stress and you know whatever so they don’t but you know just but there it is again like you you can’t quite get there without something that at least vaguely replicates our evolutionary past in terms of being in the meat world with each other on a daily basis and that’s absolutely the problem with our neighborhoods and our communities Etc I mean I grew up in a pretty affluent suburb and spiritually speaking um it was death on wheels for me I mean I just like no one knew each other no one needed each other like I live in a mixed income neighborhood in New York City where people do need each other and know each other and you know there’s a lot of unpleasantness of a sort of um unimportant story in in the neighborhood but there is connection like I mean for me that’s gold because of where I grew up it’s gold right I don’t care about the junkies in the garbage like I’ll deal with that as long as I feel like I’m part of something and I do and I’m here with my family you know it’s it’s me I have two little girls and my wife and and you know we’re you know really as happy as can be
yeah I love that and I you know I I’m now I’m really pondering Brandon is okay if I jump back in one more time yeah go for it well I’m just pondering um you you both probably know the book uh by Robert Putnam the great sociologist bowling alone yeah bowling alone how you know the decline of Civic connections that people you know they used to find a little bit of a tribe experience in a bowling league or in the Kiwanis Club or in the Key Club or whatever and parallel with the decline of those kind of Civic organizations has been a decline in church attendance and membership although Americans are still by Western affluent Nation standards by an order of magnitude more religious than any other civilization and still something like 40 or so of Americans have a strong uh church or uh house of worship identity okay my point well I was brought up in a very devout family and I had the experience in high school of attending a largely black church um and it was brilliant for all the reasons the music was just you know otherworldly in a phenomenal way and I learned a lot of what I know musically in that setting but eventually um I got to the point where I wasn’t really sure exactly what I believe um if I believe um I’m a very hopeful person ontologically existentially so I think there’s something I don’t know what to label it or name it I don’t think it necessarily matters but my wife and I eventually migrated to a religious community that’s very open and non-judgmental and you know in other words where you can kind of have the best of like oh there’s connection and Community without having to sign your name on the dotted line for any kind of you know harsh strict dogma and I’m not judging those who are you know in a more dogmatic setting but it wouldn’t work for us but I was just thinking about Sebastian in my meat world is that what can I call it that the meat World it sounds a little risque but I’m gonna go go for it in the meat World in IRL um
my wife and I have a circle of friends here in Lawrence Kansas that we meet with in a sort of a book club setting but they’re all from this little Episcopal Church and we meet with them once a week and it’s like 10 people again and it’s a beautiful beautiful thing that we we all have this sort of shared background that once upon a time we were all in a very devout kind of setting and we’ve kind of wandered off does this make any sense at all in other words it’s like a it’s a way of like all of us miss that sense of belonging and community and so we’re like can I swear on can I cuss on here go for it is that okay we’re like [ ] [ ] it we’re gonna stay a part of we’re gonna keep the best parts of this yeah without any of the Dogma or the Judgment or anything else but with by the way something that I value and I think both of you do too just from getting to know you both a little bit the sense of life has something about it existence has something about it that’s kind of mysterious and kind of magical like there’s a sense of wonder yeah about existence even if we don’t want to label it anything even if you know we say we’re an atheist or an agnostic but there’s something magical about it and joining with a group of people to celebrate that kind of magic of existence I think there’s something very uplifting about that and something that people can come together over that that’s my story anyway and I’m sticking with it no yeah I love it and and I and I think it’s a good great segue into one of our you know uh questions for Sebastian while we have him uh here with us today is that you know Sebastian you shared with the guardian that uh you you know and uh just a little bit uh backwards uh that you nearly died in the summer of 2020 due to having an undiagnosed aneurysm in the pancreatic artery asymptomatic not related to anything it’s just a structural you know congenial thing and you had no way of knowing about it and then out of the blue just like we’re talking right now you know it ruptured and you lost nearly 90 of your blood and given your experiences on the front lines of War um how is this experience into you know Steve’s Point as well too um how’s this experience different given that you know both experiences brought death front and center for you uh but from here um uh just curious you have you have death coming you know in both different directions uh in this regard but how do you see those differences playing out you know being faced with death imminently on two fronts and then to Echo what Steve’s talking about how can you bring us closer to you know maybe that mysteriousness that comes up um in that regard and the magic to life being faced with that imminent uh sort of death yeah well uh yeah so I was a combat reporter for a while and and suffered some consequences I mean I you know I had a certain amount of trauma that would follow me home and would sort of rattle me a bit and I was anxious depressed quick to anger sometimes which is new for me um I didn’t know it had to do with combat PTSD wasn’t a term that was being used very much so you know I just thought in my late 30s I I just thought I was going crazy like I mean I had no idea that you know I panicked when I was in a small space like on the subway I had no idea it had to do with combat in Afghanistan you know I was in Afghanistan in 2000 a year before 9 11. I was in a lot of like pretty heavy combat I had no idea like that it was my panic in New York was connected to that how could I there were no Subways in New York you know so so I had I had problems with it but they they did they I didn’t deal with it but I didn’t see a trick or anything I mean just like they went away like over the course of a year or so I normalized I reset and I was fine um what happened with my aneurysm was way more traumatic than combat right I mean seeing civilian casualties that doesn’t go away that stays in your head for a long time is extremely upsetting but in terms of danger to yourself right the mortality issue the risk that you run in combat are for me I mean we’re we’re transitory right I mean the effects were very very transitory no problem right when I had my aneurysm which ruptured boom like that like I was talking to my wife and I felt the pain in my my abdomen and a minute later I couldn’t stand because my blood pressure was dropping and they got me to the hospital my blood pressure was 60 over 40 and I was on the way out the door right and that was terrifying I mean that that I’m still struggling with the consequences of that I I I was I had a very intense anxiety panic disorder after that like and it was because it was the randomness of it it was just like you people do quite well with danger if they feel they have agency and when you’re in combat you have some agency right including not going to combat right if if you’re if you rupture your pancreatic artery artery randomly because of a sort of genetic quirk in your abdomen like you have zero agency right and and so that was terrifying that was absolutely terrifying and people will accept a a higher level of risk with agency than a lower level risk without agency that’s why people are scared of flying airplanes and they’re fine with driving right so so I really really struggled with that but it did bring into Focus this sort of you know if it’s true that you never know no matter how healthy you are you never know if you’re going to live till sunset I mean that’s existentially true right there was a lady in Canada in British Columbia who woke up at 25 minutes to midnights from a loud crash in her in her house she turned on the light and a meteorites the size of a large man’s fist was sitting next to her head on the floral print pillow and had it hit her forehead and killed her right that thing had been zipping around the universe for billions of years right it missed her head by inches right that’s some random [ __ ] right there right there was Zero agency and and that’s the kind of thing that humans that people have a very very hard time reconciling with their with the with the they’re said their identity their sense of themselves in life like I’m I’m steering my ship here like I can I have some control over my faith when you find out that you actually in some senses to have no control over what happens to you it’s absolutely terrifying and I have young children I’m 61 but I have an almost six-year-old and a three-year-old and now I’m living for other people I’m not living for myself I belong to them right and what happens to me is going to happen to them in a way and the idea that I almost died and left my girls and my wife was so upsetting like I’m still recovering from that idea it was absolutely devastating and so I you know I what I came out of it with is if you never know what ultimately all you is so trite this is so cliche I can’t even believe I’m saying it but ultimately you’d all you know that you will have for sure all you know for sure that you will have is right now the past has already lost to you and you have absolutely no guarantee that there’s a future right but you do have now so maybe don’t scroll through your social media feed the whole damn day you know what I mean like maybe maybe sit there and look around and be amazed at the world you know like maybe like I mean if you really think about how insane it is that we get to exist and have Consciousness like we’re made out of dust we’re made of minerals right we’re like we’re made out of stuff like and we can think the dust that we’re made of can think about itself are you kidding like that’s what the universe produces completely hallucinatory that’s crazy right like and here we are and if you can just plug into the amazement of that then you are actually experiencing life in the Miracle of Life and I mean that in the non-Christian sense I mean in like the mathematical sense the miracle that conscious life exists in the universe uh you’re experiencing that in the moment and that that to me you know like I said I’m not religious but we all yearn for something like religion right as and I do too and what I got from my aneurysm from my dear death was that awareness like that’s my religion right now it’s like it’s a freaking miracle and here I am and like don’t forget it for a moment
I was just reading um meditations of Marcus Aurelius I was just going to say stoicism meditative but you take it is that okay yeah totally I love it but I mean what Sebastian just said really could have come right out of those pages yeah because you know what the ancient stoics realized was exactly that point that the past is just a memory the future is just a promissory note and and one that may may never be paid we don’t know that we we don’t own it we’re just right here right now and we have to be fully awake to the miracle of being right here right now however it happened whatever the explanation is we don’t know and we’ll never know but we are here and we have this incredible gift um and so Marcus was advising me as I’m reading it and he died at a younger age than Sebastian and I are just a little younger but he said look um you you don’t know how long you have but you know that you’re gonna die someday you know it’s going to happen and you will cease to exist and you will turn into food for worms you will be dust so you might as well face it head on stare into the abyss and take a little look into the abyss every day just to get a little bit more focused on the fact that today is what you have and just you know to be able to savor to you know um like like you just said to not be scrolling through your your timeline one more time on Twitter or you know whatever social media to not be just mindlessly sleepwalking through the day um grumbling about traffic or grumbling about the neighbors or you know whatever um Marcus added a little Wrinkle in the passage that I read last week that my so my my father um who I love and we’re very close and he had a scare he’s he turns 80 next month and he had a little mini stroke and he’s thank God you know they gave him the clot Busters and got it uh dissolved very quickly and and cognitively he’s fine and he’s making a full recovery but one hell of a scare and Marcus says hey um not only could you die at any moment but there’s no guarantee even if you live to a ripe old age that you’re still going to have your wits about you when you get there he’s like you might live to 90 but you may no longer have your fastball yeah you know um in five years or two years or you know whatever so be all in right now right here right now and I I mean a lot of people don’t want to hear that and a lot of clinicians like myself are really afraid to say this stuff out loud to say no you need to look into the abyss not too long but just long enough to get that sense of perspective um and I I do think there’s some real wisdom there in the stoics and um I’m glad to hear it coming from someone I mean Sebastian you just looked into the abyss man two years ago that’s um and you you wrote at one point about feeling your father’s presence oh I had the craziest experience I like so I was down I mean I was 60 over 40 and I would have been I was going to be dead in minutes the doctor said another five ten minutes like you would be dead and I I it took them an hour and a half to get me to the ER so I got there and went off a cliff I went into her hemorrhagic shock and they cut my neck they cut my neck open and put a line into my jugular ads um and as they were fumbling around with my neck a big black pit opened up underneath me I was getting pulled into it I had no idea I was dying I I was definitely dying I had no idea but I had to sense that if I went into the pit I wasn’t coming back out and I didn’t want to go into the pit like who would right and I was and and I was like no no no no no no you know I could feel myself getting pulled in it was below and to the left and and then my I I I saw or felt the presence of my dead father above me and I was really shocked to see him I was like sort of like Dad what are you doing here right and again I had no idea with them right and he’s been he’s been you know he’s been dead 10 years and I loved him and you know and he he he’s he’s sort of I mean it wasn’t quite envisioned it was a sense it was a sensation that he was there he sort of opened his arms I mean I have a vision of him floating there but um no one else could see him obviously and he he opened his arms and he said it’s okay you’re gonna be okay you can come with me like I’ll take care of you it’s okay you know don’t pan don’t play it don’t fight it you’ll be you’re gonna be okay come with me I was like come with you you’re dead I’m not going with you I mean like what are you talking about and I said to the doctor because I’m still conversant now right I’m so conscious I said to the doctor you gotta hurry you’re losing me right now I’m going right so then it took them hours to to find the bleed and embolize it by catheter and um it was a hellis hell is ours because I wasn’t on any painkillers and I was in absolutely Agony my kidneys were failing they had a catheter in my groin like scrolling around through my veins system looking for the leak I got radiation burns from the fluoroscope because I was on it for six straight hours I mean it was absolutely brutal right and um and then I woke up in the ICU the next day and this nurse came in this sort of tough older nurse came in and and said I you know said well I was younger like she was a Boston accent this is Massachusetts like you almost died yesterday in fact no one could really believe you’re alive it’s actually kind of a miracle that you made it and uh I was like almost died are you kidding like I had no I had no idea I mean none and wow and I was deeply shocked and then she then she left and I sat there with thinking about it and I was just terrified right I mean it was it was very very scary news to get right the scariest thing has ever happened to me and she came back an hour later making around she said how are you doing and I said I’m I’m uh I’m okay but uh I’ve actually really unnerved by what you told me it’s terrifying that I almost died and she said you know what instead of thinking about it like something scary try thinking about it like something sacred and that changed it all for me and I’ve been trying to do that ever since like what is the sacred knowledge I came away from that place with that place of sort of Darkness fear and infinity where my father appeared like what what what what what information am I coming back with that would be helpful to me helpful to other people and that’s my you know I’m writing a book called pulse about what happened to me and and trying to make sense of it in rational terms you know I I can’t explain the fact that my father was there and I didn’t know I was dying and it’s a very very common thing with people that almost die and come back like the dead show up and I I can’t explain it like I don’t know um uh um I don’t know what to say about that I’m trying to figure it out have you I that’s amazing thank you for sharing that yeah um incredible experience have you stumbled into the the work of of Carl Jung uh when he talks about the the hero’s journey yeah and this sort of archetype of going to the pit yeah you know and then coming back with sacred knowledge yeah that is for not for oneself but as now this sort of wounded healer who has the sacred knowledge that one obtains from almost going into the pit but not quite and in being Resurrected yeah yeah I mean I know um Joseph Campbell likewise and yeah and that’s the shamanic journey and there’s shamans in every indigenous Society in the world and it’s roughly what happened to me right I mean exactly ritually dismember themselves go into the Land of the Dead and then come back with knowledge that the living need and you know I mean I’m not obviously not a shaman but it’s interesting it’s you know one might wonder if the shamanic Journey came from near-death experiences exactly and survived by people and then they Incorporated that in a ritual way yeah exactly right but but I think there may be some you might be able to get some mileage out of that yeah you know in terms of exploring what the but also even on a personal note um as a fellow Traveler I would say to you I think you may have something of a shamanic role moving forward right because you’ve experienced something that gives you a voice and a kind of authority that no one else I mean that is very very hard one experience nobody else that you’re gonna almost nobody that you encounter will have that behind them to say you know look man when I when I tell you to live for today when I tell you to Carpe some DM like I know wherever I speak yeah I think it’s beautiful well thank you and I and I’m very honored to have the word Shaman used in any in any way related to me I appreciate that my wife said to me uh I was really struggling with this stuff and um really struggling and and she said so ultimately do you feel lucky or unlucky that it happened to you and I’m still trying to answer that I’m trying to but I’m trying to figure out is how to construct my understanding of what happened in such a way that it makes me feel lucky and what the way that I know to feel lucky is to feel that I can help other people like when you make a lot a matter of the the broader welfare all of a sudden you’re you’re feeling you know like you’re you’re you lose your fears right you lose your your obsession with your own destiny your own fate like you it it’s why Parenthood feels good you get to stop worrying about yourself it’s not why combat feels good you’re not worried about yourself you worry about everybody else and that loss that loss of ego that loss of obsession with your own concerns is enormously liberating absolutely and that’s what I’m trying to do with this terrifying experience there’s a a book that had a profound influence for me as a Young Man by Henry nowin uh called the the wounded healer and I’ve always loved that phrase the wounded healer but this because it speaks to I think a very deep truth about those of us who are clinicians right who very often if you scratch a little bit below the surface of most clinicians they’ve had their own suffering they’ve had their own backstory of something that they had to overcome you know it may not have been the literal pit of a near-death experience but something really really painful and difficult and then coming through the others the other side of that and healing and then from that experience having better radar for the suffering of others yeah and having greater empathy and compassion greater sense of calling and Mission I don’t know I just I just wanted to reflect that back to you because I I think I see it this is all I’m saying thank you I really appreciate that and I’ll take it very seriously I appreciate it yeah yeah and I want to be uh I want to be mindful of of time here I know you got a busy schedule ahead of you uh Sebastian uh so we’ve got about a little less than 10 minutes here but I did want to get this final uh kind of question in to you um because it it feels important and it feels connected also to where this conversation has gone but in our industry a common the industry of Peaks Recovery Center is behavioral health you know substance use disorder mental health disorders that we treat inpatient ambulatory levels of care and so forth colloquial phrase I forget the gentleman who originally created it but there’s a profound Ted Talk video if you just Google the language that is the opposite of addiction it’s not sobriety but connection and that stated on the one hand we have a nation engulfed in a romanticized freedom you know what is government doing for me or how does that situation benefit me and in that sense of expanding personal freedoms yet Community has a tied to effect such that we seem to have a real commitment to connect to others as well as to obligate ourselves to others thus we are totally free but at the same time we are totally connected and it starts to feel like a paradox or a dialectic is kind of forming here and just kind of you know for the viewers to kind of carry this out with you know how do you see this uh playing out you know can is it a paradox or can we in fact have both and what would it take from your you know observation to really um have both be the outcome here well again you know we we’re we’re not ever going to have absolute freedom because humans are absolutely dependent on their society for survival even if that Society is only 30 people so and to belong to a group to belong to a society you have to abide by its norms and in our society you can’t drive down the left-hand side of the road because you’re going to kill somebody and if even if you don’t you’ll get arrested so you know we we’re never going to have complete Freedom until you walk into the Wilderness by yourself then you’re completely free and probably completely dead pretty soon right so I looked at the Pennsylvania Frontier in the 1700s where my ancestors or my mother’s side were from actually and they settled there in the 1700s and and so the people that poured through the the Juniata River Gap uh at Western Harrisburg and went West into what they called Indian Territory you know they they they were free of the the sort of dominion of the government the tyranny of the government the colonial government and then the American government um but what but to survive out there they had to band together to fight you know during the what they call the Indian Wars right there’d be Indian raids along the frontier and the the scattering of white settlers would cluster together at these Palisades Palisades to fight off these attacks and if you weren’t willing to do that and to be armed at all times if you were a man over age 14 if you had to be armed at all times and if you weren’t willing to put down put your life on the line for the community you weren’t wanted like get out of here right so they lost they gave freedom from the government but they lost their freedom to the community there is no way to have both right and you you are going to be obligated to something and what I would say is that in systems where people are required to make it active and substantial contribution to the group welfare there’s actually a lot of freedom there because systems that depend on that are much more likely to be egalitarian that systems where um systems that are so mechanized that you don’t need a group in ongoing individual contributions to the group welfare right and one of the great losses of freedom in the otherwise wonderful modern society is inequality right we live in a free Society Etc like I mean it’s an amazing Society but the economic inequality in the in this Society I would argue approaches a law a real loss of Freedom right and if you are in a system where everyone must contribute substantially to the group Enterprise it doesn’t it it doesn’t mean it necessarily will be Freer but just there’s a good there’s a great likelihood they’ll be Freer just because people are more equal in that kind of system absolutely and you know Steve Steve’s plugged a lot of books here and I’ll just throw this in there as well too um the the ethics of ambiguity written by the late Simona before is the only philosophical text that I’m aware of uh where philosophically speaking and ethics was promoted on behalf of existentialism and it says within the text uh that we are most free when we are promoting the freedoms of others and uh another beautifully written text by the existentialist I would encourage everybody to read and one of the better philosophical writings as well too Simona Devore has such a beautiful way of of sharing the story of philosophy in a way that a lot of the past philosophers are just terrible writers and just kind of nonsensically throwing things all over the place but I love that and I think it’s connected to the egalitarian side of this as well too and I think it supports uh the movement away from the Paradox that we presented here today and in that regard with the last few moments that we have here with you Sebastian I would just love to uh for the viewers out there to just hear where you’re you’re taking things moving forward we heard the you know text pulse but what else is going on and and how do people you know continue to find you and uh your texts well I’m not really on social media much I I um I have a flip phone I don’t have a smartphone and I really don’t good for you yeah wow I’m blown away right now this is holding up with his iPhone well I mean it’s I get that it’s an amazing tool my wife has a smartphone um uh I I I am what I would call digitally sober um and uh she sort of is too like she she keeps the her phone is not really does not have any sort of control over her but I see a lot of that out on the street you know in society like people that are really kind of owned by their by their phones and of course they’re really owned by their neurology right I mean the phones have tapped into a neurological response that we have a neurochemical response you know these companies figured it out and basically captured us and it’s straight up addiction right and I mean even these companies they’ve manufacture these things know that like it was done deliberately they’ve made trillions of dollars off this camp and it’s deprived people of their mental health it is raised a suicide rate in teenage girls et cetera et cetera I mean there’s a real meat World consequences for the algorithms that they developed right and so um I you know I’m I’m I’m I’m living my life and I don’t drink for other reasons but but uh you know I’m living when I the most sober life in every possible sense the most sober life that I can possibly have and you know large part because I want to be fully present for my daughters I mean and they are I don’t think this would have happened at age 30 maybe because I was very immature and a lot of running around I wanted to do around the world but at age 61 they are my and my wife are my central happiness and I want nothing coming between that and the good stuff right so that’s the Central purpose of my life you can I don’t post much online but I have a website sebastianyounger.com uh where you can sort of see I’m a documentary filmmaker as well as an author and you can see all the material on there and my my book Freedom the paperback will be coming out in the Fourth of July it has an added uh last section on January 6 and the concept of freedom in this country and um and then pulse will be out probably a year after that something like that I’m working on it right now terrific well I appreciate the shared experiences and the vulnerability especially around uh you know those uh sobriety whatever that looks like and however it came about whether it’s the cell phone or alcohol and so forth um I think that’s one of the big aspects of our episodes here is vulnerability and and people really connecting uh in that sort of way and so I I greatly appreciate I greatly appreciate all the insights uh as well too and I and I really just want to recognize and it and it’s not hyperbolic like your texts have genuinely changed my view of the world and brought me closer to something like community and the obligation toward it and more than anything I think you’ve highlighted the beauty of it that is lost on modernity in that way and so just so grateful to have this time with shared time with you and Steve and thank you so very much for being here today and continued success in all that you do your professional life and certainly uh your home life with your two daughters and your wife there thank you so much I really enjoyed the conversation it was a really really good one terrific it’s been a real pleasure to as Sebastian uh as somebody who’s admired your work for a long time a real honor to to share this time with you and I wish you all the best down the road and uh would love to get an update in five or ten years so I learned a lot listening to you you have some amazing things to say so thank you for that thank you so much Brandon thank you thank you for this opportunity absolutely it’s been great alrighty alrighty gentlemen we’ll have a great rest of your day and uh thanks for joining me and uh we’ll we’ll see you guys around all right take care bye everyone all right and that’s a wrap here in the studio again big thank you to Sebastian younger for being on this episode with us today and sharing uh his extraordinary Journeys uh and for the viewers out there please check out his text I mean they’re deeply moving they’re so thoughtful they’re so well written and especially the audio versions of the text he narrates them himself and just walks you through the whole journey it’s just a very powerful experience so highly recommended and with that stated unlike Mr younger in that regard go find Peaks finding Peaks and all of our social medias the twitters the tick tocks the Facebooks uh the Instagrams all the things out there so that we can continue to bring these exciting episodes forward to all of you uh finding Peaks at peaksrecovery.com or I even think it’s finding Peaks at findingpeaks.com now either way thoughts questions ideas that’s where all these episodes come from we very much appreciate it and your feedback until next time everybody

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Episode 90Clinical Approach: Inner Child WorkWatch Nowhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Vj_ZIADnEQListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Jason Friesema, Chief Clinical Officer, brings on both of our Clinical Directors, Kate Nelson and Lauren Atencio, for a clinically heavy episode speaking on internal family systems and the use of inner child work. Utilizing the clinical firepower in this episode, our team dives into why this approach is effective in the treatment and reveals on the back end how this approach can shape growth and transformation.

Talking Points1. What does inner child work look like at Peaks 2. Exploring different “parts” of yourself 3. Regression as protection 4. The youthful perception of the world 5. Why is this approach useful 6. Avoiding placing blame 7. Transformation and acceptance Quotes

“I notice so much with clients; they push their inner child away. Like, ‘I want to protect you so much from this hurt that I’m going to put you in the corner,’ but all that does is tell that inner child again that they’re not good enough. They can’t handle things. So being able to give that voice of, ‘hey, you can be emotional in this space because I will protect you.’ ”– Lauren Atencio, Clinical Director

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -90- Transcriptsepisode of Finding Peaks I’m Jason friesma Chief clinical officer and host today and joining me uh it is my great privilege to announce the two clinical directors at Peaks recovery Lauren atencio Clinical Director of our Old Ranch campus and Kate Nelson The Clinical Director of our Brook Park Campus what an honor to have you guys here and uh with some significant clinical Firepower today on this show and so we’re going to talk about billing insurance is so exciting no I’m kidding um actually as I was thinking about doing this episode today in the vast amount of time I spent uh contemplating it um I was reminded of a podcast I was listening to and uh the topic of the podcast um I think it was This American Life episode and they talked about how um this woman was at a a dinner party and um as an adult and she had gone to the zoo that day and um she was talking with her friends about it and then she literally said to her friends I was disappointed because the zoo didn’t have any unicorns and she’s being dead serious and then it occurred to her that she had she had this childhood belief that she had never challenged in her life and as soon as her adult brain had said it like she had realized what she had said was that she didn’t see a mythical creature but in her head somewhere in her head uh the Unicorn was real and she was actually disappointed she didn’t see it and of course she took a lot of grief from her friends about that and the kind of the whole show was about uh what childhood beliefs do you kind of carry that uh you have not challenged yet in your life and so that’s this really weird segue into uh what we’re going to talk about today was is a piece of um uh clinical approach called internal family systems and uh and what the and what we what we’re going to talk about is uh inner child work um and so uh it’s a little bit of a stretch maybe or it’s a little conceptually it’s an interesting thing to talk about but we found it to be a really powerful Tool uh to utilize with our clients and uh I know for me it’s been an important tool in my own personal journey and so with that um I want to start with you Kate um uh Kate by the way if you notice her hat uh she has been approached by a lot of people you found out about being a hat model um so they don’t exist so you can email her at K Nelson at Peaks recovery uh if you want me to model a hat I am here for it be awesome yeah it’d be great but anyway so so this inner child work like how how have you found it at Peaks like because we did I’m not even sure when we were writing the original curriculum and doing all of that about the insurers included in it at least not very much um and how have you kind of uh brought that to our women’s program so good question um it really started pretty organically I would say I think all of us just noticed um clients that we would get that would regress to really young behaviors and when we say regression we’re talking about going to a pattern of behavior that seems really young and presents really young anything from closing your body inwards or becoming really tearful or even just the reactiveness that we see in children and so in that we knew that we had to put some interventions in place which is really where I think a lot of us got curious about inner child work and so inner child work essentially is saying there’s a part of you the internal family systems is really a lot of parts work so there’s a part of you that never was nurtured loved accepted um reared as a child the way that you should have been and so that part of you still kind of shows up really young um and so that that gave us the opportunity to kind of look at different strategies in order to support that which you know has turned a lot into um sort of nurturing that part of self which can look a lot of different ways which we can get into but that’s really kind of where it started was just noticing that that our clients were having a hard time showing up authentically because there was this really young part of them yeah I remember I’ve asked so many clients too like um before I’d even done a lot of Investigation into ifs like how old do you feel right now like that was my old question back in the day because you could you can certainly tell when people um are in a place where they are acting maybe younger than their age and the other thing I thought about as you were talking Kate too is that um this internal family systems like it is interesting to say that we have these parts of ourselves that we carry around and um and that sometimes they they are forward and sometimes our younger self is kind of acting out in a way um and that can sound like kind of psychobabble in a way but like so many times people will say like you know there’s a part of me that wants to go on a vacation with my family there’s a part of me that doesn’t we say it all the time and and I think it’s our opportunity as clinicians to be like cool so what part of you wants to know another case with your family what part of you doesn’t and let’s let’s literally explore those parts and I think even applying to like substance use what there’s a part of me that wants to be sober there’s a part of me that doesn’t cool yeah let’s let’s identify and explore those parts further and Lauren I’m going to ask you an open-ended question too like how is this Supply how’s this shown up for you and and your team at at the ranch yeah so I think um especially in our identity and purpose week we review Eric Erickson’s developmental stages um and that’s been a really huge thing I mean for me personally as a clinician is leaning on developmental trauma and kind of how it allows us to revert back into Old behaviors and if you look at the developmental process and if there’s ruptures in that and you aren’t able to go repair those ruptures so if you feel inferior when you’re 13 and you’re always felt inferior when you feel inferior as an adult you’re going to refer back to being a 13 year old and you’re going to do what you did as a 13 year old in order to protect yourself in that space But the biggest difference is this is something I really kind of um kind of stress to the clients is that you’re not 13 anymore so the defense mechanism the coping skill the protective measures that you took as a 13 year old just aren’t going to work the same way for you as an adult because you don’t you’re not 13 and so I think going into a place of going over developmental stages seeing what ruptures may have occurred whether it be in the family of origin at school just any kind of rupture that might have trauma that really kind of stunted that development it definitely allows our clients to revert back and I think we as a team really try to like you said call that like okay so how old are you right now what defense mechanism is this what how did it work with your parents how did it work with your your at school and they’re able to see how it worked and then they’re also able to see how it doesn’t work anymore so a lot of this too is kind of interrupting old patterns and behaviors right you’re not 13 let’s not do what a 13 year old does yeah um let’s do what an adult does and so kind of interrupting that process is huge too with the clients yeah absolutely the other thing that I that I watch with people too so much is um people will take their adult self sitting here in the here now and then be really harsh at things that they did when they were young like I should have handled myself better when I was in second grade or I shouldn’t have you know people carry around blaming themselves for their own parents divorce or conflict in the family or not protecting their siblings enough and that sort of thing and and they take their adult mind and then wonder why they weren’t an adult why didn’t they didn’t act like an adult when they were younger and um this is a little more Loosely attached to the ifs but like I I’ve had people like really like get a picture of a younger person or or get a picture of yourself when you’re younger do you know how big six-year-olds are they’re like this big and like you’re judging that person so incredibly harshly um and you know that brings me that that makes me think of Shame right the shame that gets implanted uh when we are young and that uh you’re not smart enough or you’re not uh perfect enough or you’re not performing well enough or these things are your fault um I think those get uncovered a lot as we do this work as well one of the thing a big thing that I hear clients say is like oh my family never told me I wasn’t smart enough I know they never told me I wasn’t good enough and it’s the thing that people don’t really see is that like we don’t actually go up to people and say like hey Jason you’re not good enough so make sure you remember that it’s the subliminal messages we give like oh why didn’t you get an A on your report card why didn’t you um get a better you know get better friends why aren’t why are you alone all the time why do you do you know it’s it’s natural questions that we want to ask because we’re curious and we a lot of the times it comes out of this care and concern right like why aren’t you doing better but as a kid I always tell clients that like we are inherently selfish humans and as a kid kids can’t process or understand that something that that’s not that something isn’t their fault don’t know a lot of words so um and so we have to internalize we have to blame it on ourselves my parents got divorced because I wasn’t good enough I wasn’t a good daughter I wasn’t you know when in reality that’s not what’s happening but when we’re given those subliminal messages that’s how we internalize it and then as an adult like you said I’m now blaming myself for my parents divorce when I there was absolutely nothing I could have done and so yeah when you think about it like a kid’s world is really small especially like if you go all the way to like infancy the world literally revolves around you yeah right like and so it makes a lot of sense like when your parents are attending to all of your needs for you to feel like the world kind of revolves around me and that you know gets carried forward and obviously as people grow and develop as Eric Erickson describes like you kind of go through these events and and you challenge uh a variety of these beliefs but like it does make sense when you’re a little kid that like I must be at fault because this happened and the world kind of revolves around me so this is probably my fault as an adult I think most of us are a lot better at recognizing that the world does not always revolve around us and that we aren’t in charge of that except for Lauren um this is Lauren’s show we’re all just on it yes yeah I mean I was supposed to host it but Jason didn’t yeah I just like dumped you out of the chair yeah but um yeah so I think these things uh are important um to explore so so why do we do it why when we’re when people come in with substance use disorder or depression or bipolar or anxiety or PTSD why why is this an important component of a six-week program okay okay yeah take it away um so I mean you did mention trauma and I think our shame narratives and Trauma just go hand in hand right and so what we do really well I think is getting to some of the underlying issues to why are you depressed why are you anxious why do you stay in this pattern um and so to get to that we have to get to these hard places we have to get to that little kid that’s scared still and hurting and doesn’t feel worthy and good enough and so that is why we do it um speaking a little bit more to that we we usually offer a lot of narrative assignments therapy around it writing but there’s so many ways to do it we really like to look at like how are you talking to yourself because if you’re talking to yourself the way that the caregivers in your life did that made you feel that way that tells us that that child is hurting and so that is why we get to it because that’s probably one of the core issues why people are continuing to stay in their suffering can you think of specific examples before you get before you talk like of things people tell them yeah so what we hear a lot is just kind of you know I’m not good enough I’m stupid I’m a failure um I can’t succeed at whatever XYZ thing that I was told that I should what’s that not worthy of love not worthy of love not worthy of belonging that’s a big one with a lot of our clients they don’t feel like they belong anywhere um so those are a lot of the narratives that are usually linked to that hurting kid
I think what this brings up and to add on to what you said too is like this concept of re-parenting right like if I and this isn’t just for parents so I don’t want the parents watching this to think that like we just sit and attack or like attack you when our clients are with us one thing that I make it very very clear to the clients on the front end when we start doing inner child work is that I am not here to play the blame game we are not here to play the blame game because if we keep blaming our parents our caregivers or anything then you’re going to stay stuck in that yeah and so bringing up this concept right of re-parenting even is that you know you know clients might say you know I I expect certain certain things from my mom I expect my dad to show up in a certain way and so what we try to do really is allow for them to for them to show up in that way if my mom can’t show up in this way to support me or if my dad can’t come in and really provide love care support then how do you just do that for yourself so you can maintain a relationship with family but not have these expectations on them because you’re actually filling that cup you’re actually talking to yourself in the nicer way you’re noticing when because I I notice so much with clients is they actually like push their inner child away like I want to protect you so much from this hurt that I’m gonna put you in the corner but all that does is tell that inner child that again they’re not good enough they can’t handle things right so being able to give that voice of like hey you can be emotional in this space because I will protect you which is a little weird sometimes right because you’re like talking to like your younger self and when I first started full disclosure I I was like what am I doing right now but it is so powerful and so just wanted to add on to that with the re-parenting process and I like that you mentioned this isn’t an opportunity for us to to be bashing people’s parents or family systems like that isn’t what this looks like at all it’s really essentially saying like you know your parents gave you a lot and then let’s fill in some of the gaps like you needed this let’s try to meet that need and you have the empowerment to be able to meet that need so let’s look at what that would be rather than throwing anyone under the bus or anything like that it’s really an opportunity to just say here’s some needs that weren’t met and I want to start meeting them for myself and I think in my understanding too and I and I’m not an expert on ifs like I’ve I’ve certainly learned a lot about it but I don’t I wouldn’t consider myself an expert in it but it does seem like I I think what you said too Lauren like a lot of times we’re like oh I’m feeling young or whatever I’m going to go again put my kid in the corner or whatever and I think um good ifs good internal family systems practitioners will say like what is your inner child just trying to tell you like just turn and listen to your like what’s feeling unsafe or what what is that inner child need to hear as you said and I know we kind of chuckle as we say this because like um we are very practical people too and we are professionals and some of some of these things we’re saying can sound a little um far-fetched or like hard to imagine but uh the reason that we bring it out is like it it does help um and it does help get to some of the underlying causes like like you mentioned Kate of what is driving some of the depression or at least perpetuating it um and how how can you recover if you’re sitting in the shame and being beating yourself up so significantly and I’ve I know I’ve shared on this show so many times or a few times anyway that like I’ve I and groups have said how many of you feel like the worst people on the planet and at least half the group will raise their hand and that means everybody all those people and probably everyone in the chairs are telling themselves such significantly horrendous things about themselves that recovery from anything depression anxiety or substance use is going to be nearly impossible because of how hard I’m being of myself all the time and so finding that Grace and cultivating some compassion for oneself I think is such an important aspect of this and it but it does take time and intention to do like it’s one thing to say like just be nice to yourself or whatever but like it it takes work and honestly it takes a lot of guidance sometimes too for us to be able to really feel it like really allow ourselves to find a little compassion and uh and step out of that perfectionistic approach or just that really harsh uh aspect yeah yeah absolutely and I think you kind of said it right it’s just a practice of being kinder to self and meeting your own needs and I think a big part of it too is like trusting yourself trusting that the work that I’m doing within treatment with therapists with medical any of these things the work that I’m doing I’m building up my adult self and my younger self to be able to trust that I can take care of this and I’m not alone in all of these different areas of my life and I think that’s just one of the most powerful things for clients to be able to discover
only I love that you said that because like so much you know as as we are working on this integrated care model and and helping people um we still are calling it recovery but it means much more than just being sober from substances like it’s recovering from a lot of things and and so much about recovery is regaining access to and the ability to trust our gut to trust ourselves yeah um and as we as we’ve been kind of rebound damping our curriculum and talking it through again like it really became clear to me that when people walk into Peaks they’re out of relationship not only with the people around them but with themselves genuinely like to the point where they’re poisoning themselves or not getting out of bed or their anxiety is so high and it isn’t even really attest to reality it’s like attached to just this rumination and they’re they’re detached from their body and they’re out of sync with that and they don’t know what’s good for their body and healthy for them um and so much of it does go back to like I mean it sounds like a kid in a way like that needs guidance and needs a little support and help and um and it’s so important that we equip people to then learn how to do that themselves without us right like it’s our whole job to put ourselves out of business yeah 100 yeah yeah yeah I think it goes into the flipping the script thing too is like you know I’ve had clients do empty chair exercises and and we put their inner child their young self in the chair in front of them and give them the opportunity to see oh wow like that little kid was described his whole life as rebellious a nuisance messy you couldn’t do anything right and you have the client sit there and you they look at their younger self and just this powerful moment of like he was just a kid yeah like he was messy and rebellious and kind of crazy at times because he was a kid and finding that compassion for our inner child and our younger self goes back to what we were talking about there too yeah well I I don’t lose track of kids hearing the opposite messages with pressure as well like you’re the responsible one you’re the smart one yeah you’re the one you’re gonna make it you’re the anchor of this family You’re My Hope for the future that has the same aspect just even though those all sound nice but they put a ton of pressure on the kid too totally that kid now has to be perfect yeah exactly yeah no I love that you kind of described like the process that we use because I think that’s a really important piece of it is a lot of us use the empty chair model to kind of bring in this visualization of your younger self because I think that’s the moment where there’s the connection right like wow this little seven-year-old like believes that they should have been responsible for this or that they should have fixed this or that they should have been able to do this these big things these big adult things and then this realization of like they were just this little human that was just looking for guidance you know and that’s where the powerful moment comes in for clients and when they can really buy into it and kind of take that this seems corny out of it um when they have that moment yeah it always seems a little corny when we’re doing it right I know it feels like it feels like describing somebody dancing or describing a moment and it’s like it just doesn’t do it justice but um but it is really important and um and I know Brandon and Clinton are going to give me a little grief for talking about this but like I don’t care because like it’s really important and it’s been an important uh P star curriculum and helping people to cultivate their self-compassion and and uh giving people that walk into Peaks an opportunity to to find some of that I think is uh really pretty critically important absolutely yeah um all right so with that uh we’re already out of time thanks for checking over your shoulder yeah um but we’re at a time I uh I appreciate you guys coming on um I think it’s a great discussion um and I want to thank everyone for watching or listening to this episode uh you can find us on um Facebook and Instagram and uh uh I think the tick tock haven’t seen as many of those lately but some tick tock um maybe we get Kate uh and some hats and
anywhere you get your podcast as well and with that we’ll go ahead and sign off

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Episode 89Witnessing Hope Come AliveWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/LJOXH82hSNwListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Chris Burns brings on Case Manager Tyler Kea and Residential Assistant Mariano Rangel to speak about integration into the community during the early stages of treatment and the residential overview of a stay with Peaks. Mariano and Tyler share their personal recovery stories that shine as a beacon of hope for all going into recovery. Through sharing personal testimonies and experiences at Peaks, our team discusses how powerful personal care is and expresses the beauty of watching hope come alive in treatment.

Talking Points1. Introduction to Mariano and Tyler 2. Marianos story 3. Tylers story 4. Community Culture 5. 12-step as a foundation 6. Client culture 7. Experiences on the backend of a treatment stay 8. Watching hope come alive Quotes

“I decided this is the field I wanted to go into. I was so stuck on the streets for so long. There is no way out; there is no light at the end of the tunnel. I found the light. I can help others find that light. This is the field I need to be in.”– Tyler Kea, Case Manager

Episode TranscriptsEpisode -89- Transcriptshey everybody and welcome to another amazing episode on this beautiful Sunday of finding Peaks your host and president founder Chris Burns more importantly and more intentionally the recovery cheerleader here at Peaks so grateful to be bringing on my guests today we have a case manager Tyler K uh there we go I love pronouncing his last name right it’s beautiful but he’s one of our case managers also a Hawaiian native repping the Hawaiian shirts there you go looking great grateful to have you on thank you absolutely and then we have another dear friend of mine Mariano Rangel and he is a residential assistant but I would say all things residential Mariano has spent years in our residential Department not because he hasn’t had the ability to promote out of it is because he’s so freaking valuable within it that we can’t let him go um so I’m so grateful to have these guys on the show I say it a lot but I’m going to say it today these folks are great professionals but what you’re going to learn throughout this show is they’re much better humans authenticity and vulnerability is the name of the game today and I want to jump in and talk a little bit about how these professionals are helping your loved ones integrate into the community and helping the early stages of their treatment program digestible for them but before that I really want to get into how Mariano got here as well as Tyler they both have a really cool recovery story on overcoming a lot of adversity shame pain trauma mental health you name it for these guys to be sitting here today it’s a true miracle and I’m just really grateful to be sitting with you guys so I want to start with my piano and just ask you how did you get to Peaks and how did you find recovery um it’s a it’s a funny story uh I went to treatment in Pueblo and I got sober there they didn’t teach me anything about any type of mental health it was all my addiction um alcoholism and that’s what they said got me to where it was after I had finished that program I had went to a sober house started there I started doing these classes it was peer recovery coach classes okay I’d met one of our ccas there his name was Joseph best Joseph best was working at Peaks I believe for two months and we started talking he’s like I think you would do really good at this place I was like well let me try it out so after I completed my pure recovery coach classes I found Peaks and uh the rest is history what year what year did you start with us uh 2000 I believe it was right before covet because they started putting ccas in mobile home or uh what was it RVs yeah and I was the guy that was actually picking up the meals the food for each property yeah and that’s how I started wow yes what an interesting way to come in and in the pandemic and out of kind of like really the lens and that was the lens for me as well when I came into treatment the lens that I had been staring through was 12-step and it is it’s a great start um what did you find when you came to Peaks that was maybe suddenly um available to you from an information or an educational perspective that maybe you hadn’t seen before um personally and professional so once again coming from knowing only about addiction and and nothing about mental health and I believe that’s when Peaks was just starting to get into the more of the mental health aspect uh I didn’t know much and I started as a 12-step person uh and all I knew about was just 12-step and then we did a lot of 12-step and I started giving my information of 12-step and that’s all I knew yeah I started seeing more of the mental health side uh as you say a lot it’s it’s not why the drug why the alcohol it’s why the pain right and I had a lot of pain it’s extreme a lot of pain that I was dealing with and I thought I just used because I like the substance sure I did but I also had a lot of pain that I was covering up yeah uh so that part I started seeing the curriculum change uh be more towards mental health once again and uh knowing the difference between the two I thought the two were completely different yeah you don’t have one without the other basically so that’s it’s hard not to compartmentalize them too especially you know I know bits and pieces of your story but you said you had a lot of pain a lot of Shame and you come in and you have this opportunity to walk through a treatment program in Pueblo in a 12-step way of life and for a moment there this is life-saving stuff this is life-changing and we really feel from a really entrenched perspective like I’m indebted to this they’ve done so much and I still say today that those men and women in the 12-step way of life did so much for me um and it’s not one without the other I think it’s a both hand proposition that we’ve talked about you know really taking care of our mental health and really kind of engaging in our community opportunity connecting with family community and culture Maybe by way of 12-step which I think is really powerful but maybe for the viewers Mariano maybe let them know how you came into such passion for this work
so the passion comes from I was talking to the gentleman there we go [Laughter] pulling up here I used to pick up my drugs and alcohol or my drugs right here at the at the the Depot right down the street at Acacia Park I used to sell drugs stuff like that um you know being on these streets I remember days of sitting there on on the on the curb in the middle of withdrawal or my addiction and looking at families walk by and I would be like man I want to be like that and I’m never going to be like that and that’s what I told myself I’m never gonna be like that and to be able to and to feel the the despair the the loneliness and seeing as these people are walking by and that’s the loneliness and the despair is where I get my passion I don’t want anybody that comes through our program to ever feel that way that I did that loneliness is is
ugly yeah it’s dark it’s miserable it’s all the all the all the words that you can think of that are negative uh those are the days that I spent and so I definitely don’t that’s where my passion comes from in my heart I lead a lot of times with my heart it’s because I don’t want anybody to ever feel that way and if you’ve ever seen me on campus I’m the guy that’s giving hugs sometimes they’re like you need to ask first and I have a hard time doing that because I’m so it’s so ingrained in me because I needed that yeah and I wish there was people out there that would do that to me at that time and so I do that a lot and um yeah that’s where my passion comes from is knowing that people are broken alone and I don’t want anybody ever feel that way yeah I mean catching before the curb catches them exactly I love that and I think that’s with the new lens and the mental health Focus that’s the opportunity we get um is we get to come in with some authentic information that fits and say man we can heal from this you’re not different than me no you don’t have this special thing no you’re not a pariah you’re part of you’re my brother you’re valuable because of not because of what you did correct right it’s powerful yeah because you are you know it’s cool man I love that man and that’s a lot a lot of the tune why I feel so impassionate to show up each and every day as well is I feel like we have a really really integrated opportunity both on the campus in the community in the IOP in our Circles of life to really to really enact really cool change just through connecting holding space it’s amazing it’s amazing so well I appreciate you checking in with that man it’s uh thank you I think it’s really important to get some context to where all that passion comes from and um you come by it honestly man and you’ve grown through a lot our clients are lucky to have you that’s for dangster definitely yeah I’m lucky that I’m there I’m able to be happy seriously yeah Tyler um a little bit of the same I just um Tyler’s one of our case managers obviously he helps um folks as they come into Peaks really on the onset of okay what does Aftercare look like who is it with where are we connected and why does it matter it’s one of those things that Peaks recovery that we probably Focus just as much on the Aftercare plan is we do the inpatient treatment plan just because we know that connective features and the integration in the community is so important but before we get to kind of what you do as a professional maybe talk a little bit about your journey not only while you’re in Hawaii but transition over over here to Colorado and your daughter and some of the powerful messages that you’ve shared with us before yeah so it’s a it’s a long story it’s been a long road but um yeah so okay we start with Hawaii I was I was homeless I was homeless I was using I’ve I’ve lost all hope there was no part of me that that wanted to get clean because I couldn’t find a reason to you know and similar to what Mariano was sharing earlier like I would sit on the bench you know and watch families walk by I would watch dads with their daughters walk by and I just hated them I hated them because why do you get to do this and I don’t yeah and I just grew you know resentment of my the position that I was in you know so it was just I didn’t want to change I thought I couldn’t change right what what led me to change was I I got arrested I got arrested I was facing a felony charge and that just that woke me up that woke me up I didn’t know what recovery was I didn’t know what it looked like the only thing I knew about like you know 12-step meetings I knew that from from movies hi my name is I’m an addict I’m an alcoholic right that’s that’s all I knew about it so I get into this recovery thing just not knowing what it where it was going to lead me who I was going to turn into or anything I just wanted to stay out of jail I get into it and it’s a whole new world that you open up to you know just a life enjoying a life without substances was unimaginable unimaginable just your regular day-to-day things without substances is unmanageable so yeah I get clean I get clean um how long were you um out there on the streets five years five years five years yeah and I think what’s important too to mention in that is you know I’m sure your family’s like you don’t need to do this right you don’t you don’t need to do that but it’s it’s when we’re in that place of loneliness and isolation and despair to your guys’s Point everything’s pretty ugly and pretty negative and it really takes great great people in a recovery Community who you introduce yourself to to Really begin to grow out of that and have some hope right
so um your experience of coming off the streets what was that like it was different yeah um I felt like I didn’t fit in yeah I felt like I would never have fit in and especially you know moving up here to Colorado to be with my daughter and her mom yeah um it’s it’s growing up in Hawaii right you see the tourists coming in and they have things they can spend their money right so being a local you know you kind of you kind of grow resentment and you kind of wish you had certain things right so now I’m moving up to Colorado to the main states and it’s like I don’t I don’t fit in here I don’t have what they have you know I got earrings I have tattoos yeah so that was a whole nother shift for me just to just to gain some confidence in myself it was yeah yeah that transition has to be tough man right it’s so much more it feels even even more simple over there and kind of the American dream if you will the intensity of which society pushes mental health into the crown is alive and well right and I never thought about it from that perspective but transitioning from a place like that it’s a little bit more simple and coming over here your ability to integrate into the community was probably really tough at least up here yeah you know I’m sure everybody’s like come on you know right right but up here it’s almost nearly impossible right right but oh that’s interesting how long after you moved here did you start working in the field a week yeah two weeks out of out of rehab I decided this is the field I wanted to go into right because I was so stuck on the streets for so long there is no way out there’s no light at the end of the tunnel I found the light I can help others find that light this is the field I need to be in yeah so I came up here knowing that I wanted to be in this field Google search treatment centers in the area I came across this I think I got a call back in a couple of days and I was that was it when did you start with us Tyler 2021 early 2021 nice yeah yeah um and a lot like Mariano I mean the Peaks and just what we do in Peaks culture too even just not with just clients but staff and team we all sit down with each other we have smoothies we have coffees we talk about what’s working in our recovery and I’ve sat down with both of these gentlemen at certain times and they’re like what does this look like and what does this look like and we’ve been able to share and exchange that information through that privileged opportunity that we’ve had over these years I’ve experienced a tremendous amount of insight which has created an opportunity for growth what is it Ben that’s really shifted I know Mariano spoke on it really well but what has it been for you that’s shifted since you’ve come to Peaks because it really does feel like both of you since the moment I met you nearly years ago now have so much more hope in your personal Journey your professional Journey your outlook your wisdom the way that you sit with people um so maybe what has that been for you has it been a personal thing or has it been professional or both I think it’s it leans more towards the professional side um for me it’s just it’s just growth how can I be better what more can I learn to to help the next man find that light at the end of the tunnel and you know if we’re talking about 12-step you know 12-step is a good foundation for me it was a good foundation it got me into the community when I moved up here right but I feel like it’s incomplete you know when we start diving down and we start saying our resentments and things like that where does that leave us you know we still got all of that to deal with yeah we said it we shed it with a sponsor right but now what do we do right so just finding that shift and trying to just complete the transition yeah it’s it’s interesting on a professional level yeah and it’s it’s beneficial on the on a personal level yeah yeah because really getting to see that that authentic opportunity to say okay resentment it is why right not because I’m having a bad day it’s because I’m generally resentful or I’m generally angry my generally my brain’s trying to keep me safe generally my brain’s trying to keep me out of feelings that I’ve detached from since a really early age why because it’s safe right right right and so I love that opportunity that we all have today to really call it what it is we get to go kind of see where that route is repair it and get this really holistic opportunity to heal right and it’s not just us this is the clients that are coming in we get to heal you get to let go and heal and not just let go right right I do love that 12-step methodology because in that it’s a counterbalancing right and one of the most cost effective things I’ve seen you guys as well is just one person struggling with their mental health sitting down with another you know and walking it through and that side of things so yeah um and I want to make sure I mentioned too that you carry a tremendous amount of pride being from Hawaii um and I think your only your only family member out here right do you have any other family members outside except for my uh my daughter and her mom yeah we’re from Hawaii so they’re from Hawaii that’s about it though okay yeah yeah I mean maybe talk to the viewers a little bit about I mean when you go to Hawaii we have a lot of um folks that come out here to treatment from Hawaii because the resources out there aren’t early and often they’re not available when they are they’re backed up or they’re oversaturated and you know what does it mean for you being out here you know a native uh Hawaiian Hawaiian and being out here in recovery and really pushing this pace and helping others so far from home I feel accomplished yeah I feel accomplished because a lot of people don’t make it out of of Hawaii yeah you know there’s so much pride there I’m Hawaiian this is this is my land this is my people I’m gonna stay here and I’m gonna I’m gonna protect it whatever that might look like you know I’m gonna stay here I’m gonna ride it out I’m going to show people what Hawaiians are right so so you get stuck in that that mindset and it’s hard to live out there yeah it’s hard yeah there’s a lot of crimes a lot of drugs there’s a lot of everything it’s small area area it’s a small area yeah and it’s it’s just hard to escape it yeah so even when you know before the shows walking around the block and you know you get a sense of Pride and accomplishment because I made it out yeah you know I drive to work coming down Old Ranch Road you can see Pike’s Peak yeah in the morning and it shines purple yeah and that’s just it just hits me like I made it out yeah and I think I want to make sure the viewers know too is like I’ve had the opportunity to sit with Tyler um in in the movement out here to Colorado isn’t an effort to walk with and help his people long term um I think it shines like a bright light and I think initially it feels and I don’t have any experience with it just sitting with you it feels like I’m doing my people or this state or this this world and this culture a disservice but then you leave and you start taking care of your mental health people start reaching out to you from back home being like hey man you look good now you’re spreading in an infectious message that the world and your people can hear so clearly and I just think it’s it’s not only already impactful um it’s going to continue to be even more impactful and you’re just getting started on that side of things yeah you know it’s exciting yeah yeah for real um Mariano talking about client culture okay specifically client coach what I want to touch on before we get out of the show and I thank you both for sharing a little bit of your story and whatnot but client culture different than the approach maybe that we used to use or maybe in in addition to the approach that we used to use what are you finding through meeting people where they’re at trauma-informed care what are you finding through meeting people where they’re at in regards to the client’s ability to settle something that I really struggle with in my early career was clients get into treatment they don’t feel safe they want to leave we got to talk them out of leaving what I found at Peaks and specifically through ural’s approach and the way that I think you meet with them on the front end you all have this ability to meet him where they’re at and they really begin to settle in a way that I haven’t seen in my career specifically over the last few years so maybe on the ground level with the client care rates since you tend to spearhead a lot of that stuff or be a part of that spearhead what have you seen on that side of things that differently that clients are really able to digest more so than kind of like being with someone instead of talking at someone potentially right I would I would say the recent finding really good ccas to start with um that are able to just have a good way of of connection also de-escalation stuff like that and being just more intentional along with now besides that having people help us along the way we have meetings I believe once a month where we’ll get a clinician in and they’ll talk about a certain uh like de-escalation last week we did anxiety actually it was a couple days ago that we did anxiety having doctors come in and teach us more about uh MDD or a certain type of uh mental health we have so many different things going on where we are getting trained on how to do things better even though we might know so a little bit sure getting a better taste and a better example of how to do things on a more professional level rather than just winging it I think that that has helped tremendously to be able to broaden ourselves as staff because at times I’ve I’ve caught myself being like I don’t know how to do this I’ve never seen this arise I’ve never seen a person with such diagnoses or you know such like that but having more training along the way has been extremely beneficial yeah I love that you hit on that man it’s when I first started in the field we were the position was called house manager it wasn’t a client carried and I love how we’ve shifted that position for good reason because you were educated you’re trained and you’re connected you’re integrated into the clinical model and everything in between I think that’s something really exceptional for CCA culture and the ability to meet meet clients where they’re at my old experience was you come in as a house manager you’re sober so you know how to do that and you just go help people be sober right and I can’t tell you how many young people I sat with and they’re just like yeah that’s not working no and I’m like well did you do this did you do this like man I just got here yeah but to your point what you all do is you move in right you guys have learned motivational interviewing you’ve learned how to hold space with an individual to walk into somebody having a mental health episode and simply just be there with them and say that sounds really freaking difficult man and they’re like yeah it is instead of saying I got a solution a lot of the times I wanted to talk yeah and it’s a lot better to just have an ear sometimes because I’ll have something we just want to be heard yeah you know and when we’re working with mental health a lot of times that’s it man it’s just been a long time since someone’s let me sit uninterrupted tell my side of things and that can be really really beneficial so I appreciate you sharing that man that’s a and it’s been a huge shift on campus that I see and I I just go for smoothies and group but clients ability to settle in the onset of treatment and throughout the integration process is exponentially better than it was five years ago and it’s really cool to be a part of man just watching people feel safe and it’s really just getting on their level yeah emotionally you know all of that it’s it’s you know you got you got this some clients who have a rough day rough week I’m leaving right now I’m gonna walk up this driveway and I’m leaving yeah okay I’m walking with you I’m gonna walk with you you know they sit down on the floor they start crying in the corner we sit down on the floor right next to them you know I’m here with you we’re in this together I know how you feel I’ve been there yeah but there’s a way out of this right yeah that’s beautiful man that’s like getting down into the manhole with them right right instead of sitting over the top that’s that empathy stuff we talk about Jason always defines it so clearly instead of being like man that’s a shitty hole you got that’s old culture right right I didn’t get here by mistake yeah I love that man you sit down with them it’s beautiful man and that’s my experience at Peaks and that for what you guys both said when you’re looking for the difference um I think that’s it right there is those subtle meaningful moments that matter that mean everything right yeah meaningful moments that matter that mean everything and um Tyler a little differently than Mariano he works with them throughout treatment and helps integrate them into the community integrate them into the IOP process what have you found and I think it has a lot to do with the work that we’re doing on ourselves too if we stay active and involved in our mental health recovery we can really feel like we’re a part of the process with these individuals that are recovering right um what have you seen throughout your job as a case manager maybe as you’ve started to dive into some personal work but really on the client side as well as like how are you finding people settle when you can meet them where they’re at
it’s creating that rapport you know creating a rapport because a lot of clients come in and they don’t even know what treatment is right right you know they don’t know what recovery is they just know they needed help and they reached out and this is what they got so it’s just it’s just guiding them through that you know and because I did my work personally you know I can speak from experience where hey when you leave our residential setting this safe environment you’re going right back into this this environment that you came from how are we going to balance this right right how we’re going to maintain the work we’re doing here transition outside how we’re going to maintain it and it’s and it’s scary it’s scary and you see the the stages of the clients they come in scared through the middle of their stay they’re right they’re nice and comfortable they got some sessions in they’re learning new things they’re intrigued now it gets towards the end and now they’re scared again yeah right because they’re going right back out so just to guide them through that process where hey if we just take this step by step we got this yeah I love that man you explain that really well and oftentimes what you’re dealing with too and I don’t think people conceptualize this a lot they just think Joey wants to leave because he’s pissed off or he doesn’t want to do Aftercare because he’s mad at his family or uh you know John doesn’t want to engage in this because I think oftentimes what you’re dealing with especially throughout a treatment episode is individual esteem and so you come in if you’re anything like me I’m batting zero I’m not batting a thousand yeah my esteem is in the tank I don’t have a lot of self-worth haven’t been seen valued and heard in years in fact I feel like someone just threw me away in a trash can and so you’re coming in trying to say hey you’re not only worthy of this 45 days but this 90 thing on the other side they’re like yeah are you kidding me like I get chills when I talk about it yeah but you’re right as the team and others begin to build individuals up they gain this certain level of resiliency and even though the fear comes back up at the end the willingness is there yeah because they’re putting themselves by that point hopefully number one in their treatment plan but it takes a lot of work to gain that esteem and that value yeah but it makes a lot of sense to me why you know people come in we hear the admissions line all the time you know so-and-so wants to come in for one week in two hours yeah it’s like and I’ve been there on the admissions I’ve been like I’m I can only I’m only gonna do a week and they’re like we’re trying to scholarship you for 30 days Chris and I’m like I’ll do two weeks you know you’re like this is free but we’re butting up against a lot of things yeah um maybe just kind of lead the viewers with the opportunity um for Hope in that transition what is kind of some of your greatest experiences
what is the greatest thing to experience on the back end of a treatment stay as a case manager like how are you fulfilled
the hope that they the hope that they they leave with right yeah because now we have a plan now we’re now we’re moving into something life is scary we all know that and we’re moving back out into it right but we got this in place we got this in place now you got people to call now you got tools to use you know what you’re doing yeah you’re you’re not going into you’re going into the same environment yes but you’re going into it a different person yeah watching that transition right it’s huge right yeah Mariana what about for you what is what is just some depth to like the experience it Peaks as a professional like what are some of your greatest gifts when somebody leaves because people sometimes say to me they say Chris ah oh what you do for a living oh it’s like it’s charity work or something I feel like I got the greatest job on Earth because I get to watch people come in Hopeless and have hope come alive right in front of me and I’ve said it before on the show my goal for every person that comes through Peaks this isn’t the teams goal is my goal is that everybody has more hope than they can remember having and that’s how I choose to remember that experience maybe for you it’s it’s similar
you know I like Tyler had stated they come in they’re just broken deer and headlights once we start showing them are what how we did it what we went through how we went through it sharing stories stuff like that you start to see this light Flicker at first then come on completely and I’ve heard many times at the end of their 30 days 45 days I want a job like you guys have because
you guys have purpose and it’s not because you’re you’re getting paid for this we can tell that this is more than getting paid this is something that I don’t know if I would do this but if I wasn’t getting paid would I still do it probably yeah uh but they start to see that they start to see that we’re not just there for a paycheck we’ve been through the depths we’ve seen the darkness now we’ve seen the light and we’re able to shed that light on somebody else and they start to see that after the the amount of days and uh I can’t tell you how many clients that I’ve reached that point with and they’re like this is something that I want to do because I like how you represent yeah so it’s got to be a cool feeling it’s it’s an amazing feeling I always remember that because we don’t we don’t ever see people coping with substances we watch them come in pretty raw and vulnerable and watch them quite literally become bright lights in front of our eyes it’s an exceptional opportunity um it really is and I really appreciate you explaining that so eloquently I think maybe what we leave the viewers with is like Peaks recovery is this opportunity to come in um and the thing maybe that’s different at Peaks isn’t something that you can see but maybe something you connect with and that you feel and then when you leave you embody so that’s what hands down Peaks is different from any other place we do this oh we live it yep we live it and that’s what everybody needs that comes through Peaks is that well I appreciate you guys coming on the show man it’s been awesome I could sit here and talk to you guys forever but we only have so much time on this Sunday to get it out and that kind of thing but um really appreciate you guys coming on again amazing professionals even better humans Mariano Tyler thank you so much to our viewers out there thank you for checking in once again on this beautiful Sunday please find us on all of your social media apps that start with apple music Spotify Tick Tock Instagram Facebook podcast you name it we’re out there we’re putting out some ticks talks this week happy recovery mental health still matters peace

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Episode 88Beond Ibogaine: a Plant-Based Recovery ApproachWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/Eej7WA5LRKEListen NowDescription In this episode, Brandon Burns and Jason Friesema sit down with Tom Feegel, CEO of Beond, an Ibogaine-based treatment approach. Using personal and professional experience, our team strikes up important conversations with Tom regarding “traditional” treatment for mental health and addiction recovery and how it does not support every individual’s journey to finding self-motivation and healing. Instead, this episode offers information on looking behind the curtain of plant-based medicine to determine who this is useful for and what makes it effective. For more information about Beond, go to their website Beond.us.

Talking Points1. Introduction to Tom Feegel and Beond 2. Reflecting on “traditional” treatment 3. Seeking help through plant-based medicine 4. Dispelling myths of addictive possibilities to plant-based substances 5. Efficacy of plant-based treatment 6. The proper setting for plant-based medicine 7. What to expect at the Beond facility 8. What to expect from an Ibogaine treatment 9. Outcomes after an Ibogaine treatment 10. How to find Beond Quotes

“People say, ‘you saved my life.’ And we remind them every time they need to say that and look in the mirror. They saved their own life; we just created a place and a way for them to take advantage of their willingness to save their own life. They did the work; we just supported them.” – Tom Feegel, CEO Beond.

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 88 Transcripts— Input transcript here —

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Episode 87Movement In RecoveryWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/RXywXr4pWuUListen NowDescription In this episode, Chief Clinical Officer Jason Friesema brings on President Chris Burns and special guest Nicole Gordon, a level 4 CrossFit instructor and Peaks Recovery’s Activity Director. Together they speak on the importance of movement in recovery and the integration of the movement team with our clinical team to create the best outcomes for clients. From sharing knowledge of fitness to expressing personal experiences with how movement improved mental health, our team covers the importance of fitness and how crucial it can be during a recovery journey.

Talking Points1. Introduction to Nicole 2. Expectation vs. Reality, coaching in recovery 3. Holding space with movement 4. Integrating clinical with movement 5. Ten basic tenants of movement 6. Unweaving trauma with movement 7. Rebuilding a relationship with your body 8. Being present in movement Quotes

“When you’re coming into inpatient treatment, and we are getting your world quiet, the opportunity for growth and to entrench just a normal movement routine and carry that gem of a gift with you out into your community and be infectious with it, is a really big opportunity here.” – Chris Burns, President

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 87 Transcriptswelcome to another episode of Finding Peaks I’m Jason friezma Chief clinical officer here at peace recovery co-host Chris Burns president founder hello my friends Peaks recovery centers and then I Our Guest today Nicole Gordon uh level four CrossFit instructor and part of our movement team uh act activity direct what did you call it I’m sorry activities the director of fun um and I’m really excited to to have you on here uh today um I mentioned in our last episode Chris when we were talking uh just about how we’ve been working on um enhancing and and updating our curriculum and I think one of the most exciting things we are doing is uh integrating movement right we initially I think we’re throwing the word CrossFit around a fair amount um and that has uh some implications to it and it can be a little bit intimidating uh to people so we we really just label it movement um because that’s kind of what it’s about so um Nicole what what brought you to Peaks like I’m really curious about your origin story well you don’t know my origin yeah I guess I mean I suspect it involves Dan Hugo but yeah yeah I mean yeah I’m super I I’m very grateful to Dan in in many ways Dan has changed my life but yes he Dan and I met about a year and a half ago when we were both at an event for Redemption Road Fitness Foundation um I’m actually the executive director for that non-profit and we were both at an event and Dan is just um a very large Larger than Life human being and anyway at that event I made sure that I introduced myself and just stayed in contact with Dan he worked at the Phoenix at the time and then transitioned over our time you know volunteering together at the Phoenix as well transitioned to here at Peaks which he was super pumped about yeah um and just kept having conversations with me about it and I was he was just like telling me his vision on on movement here and um and as always I mean when you’re around Dan you’re just like excited for him yeah just because he’s excited right and um so he just uh I don’t know the story is like he he brought me in yeah right you got to meet my friend Nicole yeah you’re telling me I got to just meet all the people there I’m like okay so we go in with my mask and you know say hi to everybody which was and everyone’s you know super kind and we’re at this big conference table and it was like okay see you later nice to meet you and then um maybe a few weeks later two or three weeks later Dan said I want you to come in and talk to Brandon and um which I must confess uh at the on that day I didn’t remember exactly who Brandon was like title wise the door was already open I was sort of nervous because I didn’t really know what the meeting was about sure other than just another talk I thought we were having sure super casual he’s in shorts I’m in probably workout clothes too um and we just had a really great discussion and then he’s like well I’ll uh let you know what the offer is and and I’m like oh oh we were we were having an interview wow I didn’t I would have been nervous I don’t know having an interview I think this looks great um and then I see the plaque on the way out and I’m like yeah um so that was nice that’s really funny story yeah so you know coming in I guess I kind of want to ask you like what what ideas you had coming in and then maybe how that’s met with reality we were talking a little bit before the show like that it’s it’s kind of different working in a gym where everybody’s kind of comes in and eat full of eagerness and ready to work out and all that like how do you how is expectation versus reality um so let me start with my time with Brandon in the office was actually a little bit more I I felt geared towards like the nutrition side because that’s what my degree is in um and so I I think I left there thinking like maybe I would have a contribution more in that realm maybe be an assistant to Dan in the fitness realm but potentially have more input on that side so I think that’s and there was no particular reason other than that subject came up a couple times so I think that’s just where my mind went um but after being here it I think initially it was just we weren’t really sure what we were doing other than we were doing some Fitness stuff with clients right and so I think Dan and I drawing Upon Our background um you know with various people that we’ve worked with over the course of our time um I’ve owned a gym in a Pat in the past I worked for the CrossFit the company for for 12 years and so my experience with different types of people all over this world I felt really like at ease just being with new people and teaching um but I think I think this shift was for me anyway as I was alluding to earlier is just recognizing that not everyone is super excited and enthusiastic about movement so my shift in my mind went from like oh I’m just going to teach people how to move to oh wait I have to inspire people to want to move and that was the change yeah and so then in my mind the education side while there’s always education around movement and fitness it just it just shifted where the education was coming from so yeah in the place that it really comes from it’s almost like it anchors back into that um that quote that I stole from Theodore Roosevelt on the front end of Peaks nobody cares what you know until they know that you care oh yeah and there’s that shift and I’m actually drawn to a time one of the first classes I got to do with you and Dan and at the end of it we were all kind of emotional um and maybe you want to tell the people like what was that about because you’ve been in a lot of places with a lot of different people and a lot of integrated moments and spiritual moments what was it about that inflection point of like your career and you as a human in that moment with the women over at Brook Park that day gosh I don’t I am I am emotional yeah any way anyway and so potentially just being in that moment and recognizing that they were inspired inspires me like it’s just this gift when somebody says Nicole and not with words right when somebody’s basically saying in in their body language and in their um their willingness to participate even though I I know it’s uncomfortable when somebody steps into you and says I give you this gift of trust that feels emotional to me right and so I think probably it was that at that time um um but there’s a flip side to that too when when you when I recognize that maybe I haven’t earned somebody’s trust yet and there’s it’s like what am I what can I do what can I change how can I be um and I think sometimes if if there’s something for me to work on is it it I can do as much as possible but I can’t take on you know every part of that I just hope that at the end of their time that in some small way they’re just at least intrigued a little bit and I love that there’s Grace and compassion in there too there’s so much because what you’re talking about is you know let’s talk about from a depressive disorder perspective I mean folks that struggle with depression they’re literally their coping mechanisms telling them not to go to your class yeah totally everything in them is like stay away from Nicole totally because it’s just part of that process and part of that mental health disorder and so for us to be able to move in for you to be able to move in and bigger than that like this is what therapists do but you do it well and so does Dan you hold space you meet people where they’re at and that’s just this trauma-informed side of you that you’ve had ever since the moment that I met you that I think is really that kind of Link in the chain that’s missing and a lot of programs like this with physical fitness and things like that involved is that meeting people where they’re at is a really special thing to do an easy thing to say but a much more special thing to do and you do that really really well thank you thank you I appreciate that it’s um I I’ve been in that space right the depressive space where you don’t want to work out you don’t want to move you don’t want to do anything I’ve watched it happen in in both of my children for various reasons and so I it’s really hard because you want that you want to pull them out of that so bad but I do get it you know I do understand that and so um yeah I just hope that I hope that any time that we’re with anyone that that nobody feels pressure like they feel like they have options they feel like even part of those options are just showing up and being there and being like that’s the best I could do today was just hop on in and show up at the space you know so well I think I think what’s so interesting too is you know as we brought you and Dan on um we pretty intentionally put you guys on the clinical team which is I think an interesting spot yeah uh to be on because um to Chris’s Point like you guys can hold space and there aren’t a lot of people that sometimes can just sit with another person in their own darkness and not have to necessarily do anything about it but just kind of sitting there with them and and holding that Sacred Space I think can be uh incredibly valuable and and you guys have been great at just kind of fitting in uh with all of us uh kind of Half Crazy counselors um as we as we kind of do our thing wow it’s a wild world in here yeah but like like it is it can be an intimidating uh spot to be I think um because we we do talk in very emotional terms and and um you know and we carry a lot of you know emotional weight on our shoulders and I and you guys um you know you have this physical element but you carry that emotional side uh incredibly well and have just fit in beautifully on the clinical team um and I think that’s a good segue too to as we were kind of revisiting the curriculum um really learning how to integrate movement um with intentionality right I think there’s a lot of programs um that certainly offer activities and that sort of thing but I I don’t know of any other program that is that has sat with an equal voice at a curriculum meeting and said um these are the 10 basic tenants or whatever of of movement that we want to bring to this and how do we begin to integrate um stamina and coordination and speed and accuracy and Agility and endurance how do we incorporate those things into a curriculum when somebody’s working on Grief how do we how does movement combine with that and I’d love to hear kind of your journey on how integrating that is is going so far I guess yeah I think so a couple things I want to start with one list
ever were to wear to Google different like physical skills lists there’s some that are longer and shorter out there this list was actually created by a Jim Cauley and Bruce Evans so this is their list it’s important for me to acknowledge that and number two CrossFit actually borrowed this list from them and I borrowed this list from Crossfit right and so um the reason that we like this list so much is it is all-encompassing like when you think about a human being who has capacity across all of these skills physically you’re like oh they’re they’re set up for Success right um and and any one of those I for me personally and and when I think about life there’s not one of them that I would say like I don’t need that you know it’s like they all they’re all equally important um I think the reason to me when I thought about this list in terms of physical skills and my experience with Fitness um there is so much that’s been tied into my mental health with regards to these and so much I’ve learned meant for like mentally that I’ve that I started with physically and then I recognized that like oh wait this these things translate these things carry over there’s not one without the other because if you’re going to practice one there’s still a brain component to it you know and then to execute one well let’s say physically there’s a brain component but then there also must mean that there has to be some kind of dedication or determination or something behind that that allows you to then do the other things that life demands right the mental things that life demands and so that was kind of like the birth of our idea Dan and I’s idea because we’ve had different experiences but similar in terms of the way that physical and mental have combined in our lives and I think right now it’s just um maybe I think recently just having that meeting and kind of explaining how we see these tied together in into mental health was finally what like pulled it all together I think it would probably be great for you guys to tell me because there’s probably there could be some assumptions here but I think in my mind um Fitness still felt so separate from mental and and maybe once we finally had this conversation about how they actually do coexist and actually need each other that it finally kind of came together what I what I love about these these kind of core tenants if you will a lot like what I what I was really intrigued about in the 12-step process and the infancy of my recovery is there’s sustainability built into every one of those words and so it’s not there’s not a number there’s no numerical value it doesn’t say like when my waist size reaches when my weight reaches when my arms are this big when I can run this fast it just keeps you coming back for more so there’s no Finish Line and in that effort and in that culture you can really begin to kind of plane the tooth because never I’ve never had so much endurance before mentally physically and spiritually and emotionally that I can’t come back and get some more and I can’t grow that’s what I love most about it is I think most people can find their way into each one of those tenants um with compassion and with connection you know that’s really really special and when you know when I started my fitness journey when I was a freshman in high school we did a program called bigger faster stronger and if you weren’t a part of the thousand pound Club but they didn’t teach you how to get to the thousand pound Club it was just about put weight on your back and push it out right which I think is probably more counterproductive today we’re at least realizing it so it’s all about numbers all about this stuff so you get to these numbers and there was no sustainability nobody would carry their routine forward right yeah that’s why I really really love about entrenching behaviors and I’ve been using that word a lot lately and trenching because when somebody’s in inpatient treatment I mean they say you know from zero to five you’re developing it just when you’re coming into inpatient treatment and we’re getting your worlds quiet the opportunity for growth into an entrenched just a normal movement routine and carry that Gem of a gift with you out into your community and be infectious with it is a really big opportunity here where I haven’t felt that before in past Peaks culture and I certainly haven’t felt it in my experience working in the field and being a human I’m kind of walking through my own early recovery experience so it’s a breath of fresh air I’ve been part of I’ve worked out a lot a long time I don’t mind going into gyms but going over to Dan and Nicole’s class if they didn’t change the times I mean I was planning to be there every week because it’s just special I’m like okay oh I knew I was getting that wrong you know just being present for myself and that’s what this stuff really really uh engages us to do yeah and I think I think would I think we’re still at the front edge of really realizing the benefit of this and I really um I know in that curriculum meeting like when you presented this list it all clicked into place for me yeah um because because there is so much crossover this isn’t it’s easy to read this and be like you know flexibility is can you touch your toes but it’s like there’s emotional flexibility there’s spiritual flexibility there’s same with power same with speeds and with uh accuracy and Agility like all of these things are um pretty fundamental actually to our curriculum we just probably would have never listed it in these words right um and so you know to kind of you know maybe walk through a grief week and do a grief week if you will and and um and walk through that it would have it also how do I Endure when I’m physically working out as well I think is I don’t know brilliant right around brilliant yeah it’s so cool that you guys are working together because it’s like what we’re learning throughout this um I’ve been saying this quote a lot this week Bessel Van Der kolk’s book the body keeps the score trauma in his one-line definition says to not be seen or known so so we’re working with a lot of people that are coming in not having been seen or known not never mind the physical activity right and so to really move this into the clinical realm see we can see that some of these behaviors are informed through my process from 0 to 17 and we can go back we you know we can integrate with Nicole and say hey so and so is not moving really well he’s like oh because he had an experience like me on the soccer field at four years old where his dad came up and said you never get injured yeah right and so now I can’t take care of my mental health and Sport this is this beautiful recipe that’s built again for sustainability and for the clients that come into care it’s just it is so awesome and the reason I know it’s so awesome is I’ve been doing this quite a while and it’s really awesome for me yeah you know yeah so I just know people coming in they’re loving it I get to sit with each and every client that comes through Peaks individually for a smoothie and just say how are you in a movement movement is a huge part of that answer
we were joking like it it took us a while to call this movement oh yeah it honestly it was the most benign word I think that we could think of that would be the least triggering for people because everybody moves to some degree um but yeah because when it was a workout or whatever like it definitely bumped into a lot of resistance around yeah and the CrossFit was like
um but but really getting this movement thing uh has been I think pretty pretty fantastic honestly and and I I do appreciate your feedback I’ve been reflecting too um because in my eight years at Peaks uh you know I spent a lot of time as as just a primary therapist and and going on Hikes with clients um to your point like I’m usually pretty good about building engagement with people I’m like everybody would try everybody would at least give it an effort and go as far as they could and just that accomplishment too I think um can be so powerful and and um and you know it’s almost like a physics issue where it’s just difficult to overcome inertia like it’s difficult to go from not moving to just get moving a little bit but usually then momentum I think can really build relatively quickly and I think we see that pretty regularly as well um and kind of the last thing I did want to touch on too is I think also um as part of inviting you to the curriculum meeting as well as like we’ve really realized um when people come to Peaks whether it’s for mental health or substance use or both they’re really out of relationship not only with their families or or whatever but they’re at a relationship with their body like they’ve been ignoring their body they’ve been poisoning their body or or ignoring that like they need to get moving or get sunlight on their face or or whatever for quite a while and um and I think that’s a core component of what what you provide too is just how do you how do you get back in relationship with your body without kind of that shame or without judgment and that sort of thing that I think is so powerful as well Chris do you like as we wrap up like how does that kind of match your own personal experience too with kind of re because I I even think I’ve watched you get into a different relationship with your body in the last few years as well that’s why I’m so excited yeah it really it just it speaks to me I mean I grew up in sport playing basketball playing football I’ve always been really really active um but I never knew I could be mentally healthy within that um and be safe within my own body and know my own body and be introspective and um on days when I’m not feeling as well take some time off you know can I put myself first in my own treatment plan you know I say that oftentimes and for whatever reason the world’s energy had kind of moved into me in a way and put me like third on my own list and so it’s really been a breath of fresh air over the last few years I mean people used to ask to work out with me and I’d be like are you kidding me there is no way I could work out with you I’d have to take my headphones out we’d have to talk that would be present yeah you know what no way same with the different activities that I used to do and you know it’s started out with bringing Kezia his daughter into the gym and she was in there for six months and it I would say it changed my life for the opportunity to just be there with her and to walk through this and do this in a mentally healthy fashion where we could connect throughout the process be mindful of what hurts examine it move through it take days off Connect and so it’s been an absolute gift of my recovery is this real holistic opportunity we have to sustain our recovery today and I think for a number of years at least for me anyway and the people that we’ve served have felt like this industry’s come in and put a box over everybody’s head and they’re like oh well I certainly don’t want to die and so I’ll do all of these things and I think a quality of life has been abysmal and now with these new opportunities for movement and to integrate with Core Concepts like this and the curriculum and potentially 12-step in Dharma we just have a plethora of mindful opportunities to grow in our recovery and know better for me than this holistic approach that y’all are kicking it’s amazing so I think what’s really fun too is that over um over time you know everyone’s introduced to each one of these and and inevitably something’s going to speak a little bit loudly to people more than others but if they’ve never experienced it then they don’t even have the opportunity to go like what what does speak to me what does make me want to move my body is it more this is it more that and so um just giving folks an opportunity to experience something for them to go yes know what feels right what doesn’t connecting to self and going like all of these are important but I could spend a little bit more time here because I like it and I know the difference between what I like and what I don’t like in my body now you know and you brought it up so simply on the front end too it’s like can we really get some some meaningful goals you know in 2016 when I was doing what I was doing I wasn’t in a great mental HUD space and I wasn’t in a good physical space either I you know I found it tough to get up off up and off the ground with my young newborns I was like I’d really like to do that better and I started moving a little bit more outside hence running a little bit jogging started off with slow fast walking and things like that and so I think when we can define a more proportionate goal again that sustainability and the quality of life and happiness that consumes us as a result is so cool yeah you know I would invite everybody in my neighborhood to come in my garage and work out with me now that but they’re just like dude okay do your thing
probably I appreciate you coming on Nicole and really uh shedding a little light into into this movement component that we are offering here at Peaks and Chris is always it’s a pleasure uh thanks for coming on yeah thanks for having me and with that we will wrap up this episode of Finding Peaks uh follow us on Instagram Facebook uh find these episodes on uh wherever you get your podcast Spotify iTunes um and Chris Tick Tock we’re pushing out some great tick tocks Coover and I in the back are on some really good meaningful stuff just Simplicity some good stuff to wake up to in the morning so check us out check us out

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Episode 86Shifting Into a New YearWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/n7929XJw6DcListen NowDescriptionOn this New Year’s episode, founder and president Chris brings on Jason and Madelyn Padilla to speak on significant changes and developments at Peaks Recovery Centers in 2023. From a logo refresh to the completion of Trailhead, our state-of-the-art recovery center, our team shares personal feelings toward the company’s growth.

Talking Points1. Big changes in 2023 2. Movement team integration 3. Significance of “Trailhead” 4. What is relevant in treatment 5. Revisiting the pandemic 6. A warm welcome into the new year Quotes

“Anything that we are doing that’s different, it actually is a story, and it’s a message. The message and the story is, good enough is not good enough for us.” – Madelyn Padilla, Admissions Specialist

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 86 Transcriptseverybody welcome to another exciting episode of Finding Peaks I’m staring into the right camera right now and I feel really good about that yeah it took a couple years but here we are without a camera that one okay so the day to have my uh co-host Jason friezma Chief clinical officer welcome to the show Jay thanks buddy grateful to have you he’s got a beanie on it I actually have mine in the car and just in case because the uh the wind was a lot today and if my comb over got blown over I was going to throw a beanie on I I was at that point today like I know I’m going on finding Peaks but if I break the seal on the hair I got to leave it on yeah I had to do it and we got our guest today Madeleine Padilla admission specialist recovery extraordinaire and just a great human grateful to have you on my friend and the reason I wanted to bring this crew on is this is the New Year’s episode happy 2023. it is going to be an outstanding year Madeline Jace and I were just talking about some plans and some goals that we have to engage in our mental Wellness in the new year and we have a lot of plans here at Peaks recovery to engage in client care in an even better way than we did in 2022 but first I want to start off with the new logo we have a new brand refresh that we’re doing it’s really really beautiful I don’t know if they can pull that up on the screen maybe not um but I’d like to bring that up because there’s a lot of new things happening at Peaks and I really feel like 2020 2023 for us is like a new opportunity and a new shift to help individuals that truly need it and truly deserve it and over the course of 2022 people like Madeline and people like Jason and a lot of the leaders in our program have really gotten together and moved a lot of this energy in a positive direction it’s I want to touch on obviously the brand and kind of how it makes us feel and we’ll talk about that in a little bit but really some of the changes that are coming in 2023 we have a lot of exciting stuff happening at Peaks recovery I think we’re engaged in mental Wellness in a new way in this new year I’m really excited about that but I want to turn it over to Chief clinical Officer Jason Friedman maybe talk about some of the components of the clinical program as we move into the new year and maybe even more specifically the new building in May yeah that might be shifting or changing and growing in a way okay I mean I think I appreciate you mentioning the logo uh I think the the new logo our old logo looked a little tiny bit like an AAA yeah that’s a good story yeah and so um it was probably our time to refresh that a little bit and make it look like some mountains because we live here in Colorado and do try to get out in the mountains as much as we can um so I I’m excited about the new logo I think it looks pretty cool um especially as we’re headed toward the trailhead the the name of our new building um near and dear to my heart for sure Trail I’ve been on a lot of trailheads and it started a lot of great things in my life and I I hope this one does uh has similar impact for sure and um as we have been kind of uh going through our curriculum like we we actually have a little secret here we have a curriculum committee that meets every week and we are constantly now having eyes on our curriculum figuring out what we need to add what we need to take away how to incorporate elements and we just recently had the opportunity to really work with our movement team Dan Hugo has been on the show before and Nicole um who are just uh incredible human beings um coming in to really help um help incorporate not just to provide workouts for for our clients but to really they they’ve sat with us and heard the curriculum understand it and then we’ve we’ve taken a lot of their principles that they have um with their physical uh uh movement and we’ve Incorporated we’ve figured out what to do during our grief week or what to do during our emotions week and and what movements are going to be most helpful for those so I’m really excited about that aspect and um and right now we’re I mean everything’s on the table that’s what I that’s what I do love about Peaks is that we we’re trying to stay Innovative and not kind of get locked into to one um one curriculum and be stuck to it for 20 years like we’re really trying to keep it refreshed and revamped so yeah I love what you said there it’s really I think that’s really unique I’ve never been I’ve been a part of some really nice treatment programs but I’ve never been a part of one that’s taking physical activity and marrying it with the clinical curriculum yeah I mean this is really special so for example I know I’ve said it before but it’s it’s like you know on Grief week when men and women are grieving it’s tough maybe this is a boxing week but the fact that the movement team has sat and integrated with the clinical team to build a movement curriculum alongside it is special it’s not just a coping mechanism anymore yep so sick of that how do you code right on the truck it needs to be part part of the treatment we need to make that part of treatment right and and I think Dan’s done an incredible job of doing that I I’m so excited about the um I just thought of this as I’m sitting here actually but the trailhead like what do you do at a Trailhead I’m literally thinking like what is that well you meet that’s what meet me at the trailhead yeah that’s where people meet and I think it’s all coming full circle for me as I’m sitting here that’s what we’re doing this is the point we’re gonna this is where we meet people no matter where they’re at or what’s going on in their life this is where we’re going to meet them we’re not we’re not going to worry about what their entire Journey at the mountain looks like we’re just gonna meet at the trailhead that’s starting to kind of make sense for me yeah and I think we actually touched on even making that potentially so the new facilities the trailhead this is where it starts right and potentially making West and East right the ridge the Summits right right oh cool you know so yeah that would be really really cool and that was the idea behind the trailhead but you bring up that good point it’s like where we meet yes yeah and it’s a safety thing if you get split up something goes awry it’s always clear that you go back at least when I’ve done any climbing if something happens you go back to the trailhead right it’s a it’s a point of safety and a point of connection connecting with your your group yeah you know so I think what we’re offering there too in terms of stabilization and what we’re doing there the name it just makes sense it makes total sense and you actually said something really cool before the show I was talking we were talking about you know obviously this new year it’s New Year’s 2023 and what I said something and I was like you know and that way we can sell Peaks better in the new year and Madeline says no sale we don’t need to sell Peaks it sells itself maybe you want to talk about that a little bit as we it’s just yeah it’s not something to be it’s not something to be sold it’s something to be experienced it’s such a privilege to to experience something like that but sell it I don’t know it just that’s something that and being in admissions this is kind of we do things different here I’ll say it that way but um that feels so cheap to me and it’s almost offensive to me like to sell this this is this is the lifestyle this is a way of being this is like a like um kind of a spiritual path you know so the word sale it’s just it takes it down so many notches for me it’s so unnecessary you know you’re so you’re so right too because when we were able to explain our process folks I think can begin to see themselves inside of it in a really unique and connected way right and I think that’s what the admissions team and you specifically do a great job of it is allowing folks that are struggling with their Mental Health on the outside to see themselves within our process our curriculum and with our ecosystem which is really really cool and we’re not what’s the client’s end we’re not trying to get him to buy into Peaks we’re trying to get them to buy into them just buy into you yeah put yourself first yeah that’s the goal you don’t need to buy into this yeah it makes a lot of sense too and I’ve been talking about that a lot lately and I don’t want putting yourself first in your own treatment plan you know and getting that investment and I think Peaks most certainly in 2023 is going to have this opportunity I’ve talked about it a lot certainly with leadership you know our campus right now is a construction zone you know we got tractor it’s kind of cool but it’s kind of intense and so when you’re pulling up sometimes it can be like well what’s this what’s that right once this thing is built out it’s going to be this opportunity to really really settle I think what gives folks the opportunity right now on our campus is the team the team is so engaged and there’s so many of you and you guys are each pushing that energy that nobody cares what you know until they know that you care and so oftentimes what I see in the construction site gets missed by all the clients because the ecosystem is so fresh and so informed yeah but the the construction and anything that we’re doing that’s different it actually is a story and it’s a message and the the message in the story is good enough is not good enough for us that’s it that’s the message we we’re expanding because we want to be better we’re doing things differently because we want to be better we don’t have to operate that way but I just how else could we do it right we wouldn’t do it any other way so yeah I think um it can be intense over there but boy if you don’t see anything changing you walk into a program and it looks about the same as it did 10 years ago right there’s a story there too it was like when they first set up construction on campus and it was like a couple months where they got going I’m like there’s a story here yeah there’s a story or no exactly moving that’s right you know that’s right what are you most excited about Madeline in 2023 to really share with people that are calling into the admissions line and maybe both professionally and maybe even personally oh man I mean it’s all coming full circle to me because I always thought and Jason you can relate to this this is a suffering issue why do people come to treatment they come to treatment because they suffer and then we sit with them and they’re suffering and then we you know that’s that’s what it is and I think you know callers people get so caught up and I used to get so caught up on this idea of like the Band-Aid like let’s you got a gash in your arm and you slap something on it as anyone would that’s a resiliency feature to put the Band-Aid on shopping um sex um you know drugs alcohol processed addictions you name it but you’re going to cover that up it’s only human right to cover that up we don’t care what you chose to pack on there I don’t care what that is now what I do care about is that nasty laceration under there that pain that’s relevant to us right everything else it’s not relevant yeah to us and so this feels like we’re we’re getting there we’re starting to Zone in on that that we care about your wound we care about your wounding not the behaviors that come afterwards it’s so interesting you’re saying that because a lot of clients and I really appreciate that because that makes a lot of sense a lot of clients are coming in and they’re like you know I was due I was at I was at 12-step based program and I was doing all the things and we were in programming seven hours a day but it really really felt like they drew a line in the middle of the tree trunk and went up that’s right you know yeah and I did all the things man I watered it I cut it off I pruned it all the things and I remember this story happening often in early Peaks when we were really 12-step driven we didn’t have the clinical approach that we have now where folks just weren’t getting satiated in the right ways and so they’re going through there they’re checking all the boxes and so I really feel like this opportunity in 2023 to your point it’s like this is a whole brand Refreshers a whole Reef this is a new Peaks yeah in the last few years you all have worked tirelessly to form and cultivate a program that what I would consider where I would send my dearest friend the people that I love and so now I think it’s just to your point it’s not good enough we have this opportunity to grow right together and meet people where they’re at and I think it’s really really special in 2023 and the energy is there more so than it has been back to Jason’s point the old logo Jason knows I actually made the logo initially with a triangle in it
right because it was Illuminati and it was very hard right and it was intense and I just find so much strength when she presented when Chelsea presented the um the new brand opportunity a couple months ago I was just it was like a breath of fresh air yeah I had the the logo that we had before got made by a buddy of mine in my 12-step group and I Got It Made for about 220 bucks yeah it was amazing and it lasted eight years but I love that we’re shifting a lot of this stuff because the old way it wasn’t good enough no it wasn’t good enough and I think a lot of people are still engaging in that and I find I find a lot of strength in the approach that you all are taking one day at a time not not just with clients but the way that you’re trying to feed your teams as well and the people that you work with I think we spent a lot of time before the show kind of talking about that and that’s something in 2023 I think we can continue to do more of one of my dear friends Donna Schwartz posted something on social media a few weeks back and it just caught my eye because in 2022 it wasn’t just 2022 it was what we were coming off of in 2020 and 2021 right and then we’re into 2022 and everybody’s trying to get back what we lost and so I think oftentimes in this last year a lot of folks including myself at various stages have lost that mental Clarity and that’s something I want to push into 2023 as well it’s like how do I own my mental health right and how do I put myself first in my own treatment plan personally and professionally um and I want to talk a little bit about that maybe spread some of that energy into the new year is like how do we ensure maybe make it a New Year’s resolution but one day at a time how do I show up into my holistic approach to my recovery and continue or start to for the first time again feed that mental health and so I want to touch on that a little bit of like I know we were touching on a little bit before the show but what can we give the viewers as we’re going into the new year you know we have a lot of New Year’s resolutions oftentimes I’ve made New Year’s resolutions and they weren’t sustainable and I think that’s informed and we touched on a little bit before the show but maybe go to you Madeline is like what can we do not only in company culture but in our personal lives to spread the opportunity that we have 24 hours at a time to engage in our Mental Health
just so I understand Chris so are you asking about our commitment to mental health like our own mental health or you reframing yeah
as we approach the New Year I’m finding you know a lot of people I sit with whether it’s in Peaks or not people are tired you know people exhausted easy okay I’m with you now yeah I’m just gonna treat me like a client end of conversation there you go I’m done yeah that’s all I have to say that’s it that’s all you’re going to do and how do you do that when it feels like the world doesn’t give you time right when it feels like everything’s pressurized and things are intense and you know you’re in admissions that’s a that’s a Hot Zone you get a lot of calls that are quite intense very sad a lot of pain but I would tell I would tell a client that I I have told people that if you get to a certain point and you know when you’re there for sure because you can feel it and we we teach our clients that I was taught that at Peaks oh my heart is beating you know I’m sweating I’m not feeling very good I’m starting to get agitated I absolutely know where that line is and I would tell someone this if you reach that line walk away yeah put the phone down and walk away yeah and walk away and we create all these I can’t walk I can’t absolutely I changed it and in fact I think my longevity to the company into our new vision of what we’re trying to do that is the priority over anything else and I think it’s it’s kind of scary because we’re standing on this precipice of what we’ve always been moving towards but now it’s here and it’s intense it’s just really intense mental health is intense you know it’s not because when you when you have care where you’re focusing on the wounding that’s really messy Woos are ugly they’re infected they’re painful for people people don’t want you to touch that and when you focus on the Band-Aid right that that feels good that feels really good and then of course as we move into mental health sometimes the progress or what we’re looking at looks different like okay someone that’s struggling with alcohol comes in and there may be don’t have like an acute mental health issue of course they have a mental health issue right but we can see the healing on the outside suddenly that person loses 10 pounds and their skin is you know it goes from yellow to whatever color it’s supposed to be right we can see that and they’re they’re lighting up from within now let’s look at something like MDD made your depressive disorder you know the indicators are different it may feel less gratifying for us as a staff so we need to really start digging into why are we here like why are we doing this at all um because it’s going to be tough but it’s it’s so worth it and it’s so difficult and I think that’s always been kind of the brand you want to talk about the brand things that are worthwhile hurt and are hard yeah that’s that’s what we’re going towards I think I think it’s amazing I really do and I I think it’s important to your point and I think to what I was saying is like I have to address the intensity over the last couple of years before I can move into one day at a time you know and oftentimes I find it best to counterbalance that with people like you guys and sometimes when we’re stressed out we feel like we don’t have enough time we don’t find it necessary to connect like we are today and so that’s what I wanted to encourage and you did a great job of it for the viewers and people moving into the new year is just to maybe take a look at because from 2020 to 2022 for me was a tremendous amount of adult trauma you know of which I didn’t take a look at you know and it really was kind of beating me over the head and was creating an inopportune situation with family community and culture you know what do you think Jay for for you yeah and I’m sitting here speaking to someone who’s taught me more about mental health trauma and taking care of oneself in the steps in order to do that maybe than anybody yeah Chris it’s interesting and obviously you said 20 20 to 2022 which obviously that’s like the pandemic um and um I was hanging out with some of my friends last night and we almost got um nostalgic about kind of the Simplicity of life now it was scary we didn’t know what was going to happen um but really all we all we did was work and go home like there wasn’t anything else to do and my buddies uh would come over to my house on and we’d sit on our my patio I’d have like my chiminea with a fire in the winter and we’d all have blankets um because we still wanted to meet but we we didn’t want to expose each other to to covet and um and there was a Simplicity to it to be honest with you and and now that life is kind of spinning back up if you will like um you know everything’s open you know we’re not wearing masks for the most part and um things have changed back to normal but like we’re a little bit wounded too and and like life did get simple like remember I-25 was empty for months uh just yeah just fly into work and and um and we were working 12-hour days but like it was better than the people that couldn’t work at all um and so like I don’t know like I feel like I’ve had a little trouble like re-downshifting I think from from the pandemic to get back to like what does what what does a life in Balance look like and you know my my daughter was in high school uh the last two years of her High School were during the pandemic and like she had to be home and so we got to connect a ton with her but like um it’s just interesting having conversations with her now as she’s integrated into college and like um things were just different it was just it was so messy in so many ways but in other ways it was actually easier yeah like we hung out a ton as a family and we in in all my friendships like there’s a real big intentionality around it and we did all frankly trauma Bond at work yeah you get real close and um and now life is kind of stepped out and so I mean I think to your point Chris like I know for me I have to like I’ve eight things written down probably they got to do um to get my fitness where it needs to be and um frankly go to the damn dentist because I haven’t bothered to do that since the pandemic and like uh things like that tomorrow I think that’s really great I’m just like let’s 2016. right before the pandemic there was the myth and normal going on yeah American Dream Chase up the top of that yeah all the intensity and then it’s playing catch-up with the American dream after that which is just bent right disproportionate for everybody and so it’s been really hard kind of gang ganging that uh that Center that homeostasis again yeah well I the whole the whole pandemic thing like what is it you know what does that even mean I’m so tired of even that word like right it hurts me but two years we’ve been in we’ve been in the cave and the cave is safe the cave is totally safe it’s dark it’s safe I loved it I loved when it first started because I thought this is exactly how I want to live out my life ordering food to my home minimal interaction I said oh my God it’s okay so right you know and I wasn’t as healthy as that time now I now I know different but I was loving that I loved it and then as things that downshifted like you said it’s like you’re walking out of the cave and the the light yeah it’s bright it’s blinding and it hurts and then you’re completely disoriented completely just you know it really is it’s almost like I was sitting with a mentally the other day he’s a helicopter pilot and he was talking about flying in the clouds it’s kind of what that reminds me of is like coming out of the pandemic like you’re trying to stare at this instrument panel that’s all you got yeah you know because it’s your training you’re like I know how to do therapy yeah you know but you can’t stare out the window because it’s just too much yeah it brings up glorious and terrifying terrifying I think that’s what this is like what we’re moving into it’s glorious and it is terrifying yeah yeah is I was it’s a beautiful point that you make because we’re we’re showing up to try and help save people’s lives that in the early stages of treatment that sometimes they don’t want to be alive um
to your point it can be both hand right you know I’m really excited for 2023 not just the brand refresh it just feels like a new opportunity for Peaks team and clients coming in I’m grateful that we’ve moved away from kind of that old archaic model and moved into something that’s really sensible in integrating for individuals coming into the program and I’m really excited to see what we can do with the new facility potentially some of these treatments that are coming out and opportunities to help folks that are struggling with mental health in a way that I think um we haven’t done before which is really really special and really really cool so I’m excited about New Year’s I’m ready to go it would be if I stay up all to midnight tonight it would be the second time in my 14 years of recovery that I’ve stayed up to midnight on New Year’s like 10 30 I’m like yeah did you drop yeah I aim for East Coast uh midnight which is 10 p.m yeah so like yeah that’s that’s my goal when I was pulling an all-nighter I’d do eight of those in a row right
but I appreciate you guys coming on and just um you know we were they had the Christmas party on Sunday unfortunately I wasn’t able to be there a couple Sundays ago because I had covid um but I think one of the things in the Christmas party that they do a great job of and that I wasn’t able to do is just really celebrate you all and I could do that each and every day for the rest of my life I just really really appreciate you first as humans secondly as professionals and lastly is friends so thank you so much for coming on if you want to share anything with the viewers before we end out other than peace and have a great 2023 and we’ll see you in a couple weeks happy New Year let’s make it a good one happy New Year just know today that you are seen valued and heard and at the very least here at Peaks recovery so please find us on all of your social media platforms social media we’re talking Tick Tock I’m back on Tick Tock Instagram Facebook finding Peaks on Spotify Apple music look us up we would love to see you you all have a great afternoon

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Episode 85Self-Care During the HolidaysWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/U-ZF0oE_61UListen NowDescriptionIn this holiday episode, leaders in our clinical team, Jason, Lauren, and Bo, address the often-forgotten aspect of this season, self-care. They share personal stories and how to listen for vulnerability while also shining a light on essential practices to keep grounded in a time of possible high stress. When many focus on those around them, our team shares the importance of intentionally focusing on yourself this holiday season.

Talking Points1. Mental health during the Holidays 2. Personal experience 3. Loss during the Holidays 4. Self-care can be small 5. Finding self-worth 6. You deserve love 7. Seasonal Affective Disorder 8. Showing up for yourself Quotes

“Self-care starts internally. Self-care is about self-love. Self-care is about how you talk to yourself. Self-care is removing yourself from unhealthy situations. Self-care is about treating yourself the way you treat your best friend. Would you talk negatively about your best friend?” – Bonita Wilder, CAS

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 85 Transcriptshello and welcome to another episode of Finding Peaks I want to acknowledge that today is December 25th so merry Christmas happy holidays if if that is more appropriate um I am here your host Jason friezma Chief clinical officer Peaks recovery I’m filling in for Chris Burns who uh got a little case of the covid um so he’s unable to do here or be here joining me uh is Beau Wilder um our intake specialist and Lauren atencio Clinical Director um and we were talking just a minute ago uh we are kind of the Old Guard here at Peaks yeah we have been Bo how long have you been here uh it’ll be seven years in February Seven Years in February I’m eight years in April right six years six years right wow I know so amongst us we have been here a long time yes uh and so we are here today to talk a little bit about um how to kind of manage your own mental everybody’s mental health uh around the holidays that can be a challenging thing uh I know last time Chris was on with me anyway uh we talked with Madeline uh pity about how challenging the holidays can be uh for people in recovery but I think um the holidays can be challenging for uh all of us and so we’re just going to have a discussion it’s going to flow uh or well I guess we’ll see um but anyway so um
I was in all seriousness talking about how laughter is actually an important part I think of walking through the holidays and so maybe we’ll say funny things maybe we won’t um but Bo maybe starting with you uh when we talk about kind of mental health around the holidays what do you what do you do for yourself maybe we could start there um well I lost my father back in May and um all the support and all the tools that I’ve gathered since then um one of the things that that we’re going to do as a family to get through this this grief and the mental health stuff and the sadness and things like that is going to be to take a tradition that my dad used to do you know and everybody picks one and we’re going to implement that we’re going to bring that to our Christmas celebration this year so um to be honest with you just I’m just going to be where I’m at yeah and I’m just going to embrace my family and my work family at Peaks and um we’re just going to try to make it through you know at this point yeah definitely what a great way to honor your father too yeah really creative plan there yeah that’s awesome I think it resonates with me too um I lost my grandfather recently and these holidays have been a little bit more heavy and so I think for me something that I’ve been doing kind of like what you’ve been saying is just being really intentional about my relationships about my own self-care being able to just check in with myself frequently is so huge around the holidays because they’re me myself I am I can go into people pleasing land really really quickly and especially during the holidays right I’m very concerned I want everyone around me to be feel good I want to get gifts for everyone I want everybody to feel loved and I think with that a lot of the time I forget about myself and so with moving into these this holiday season it’s been really important for me to be intentional and just be really present with myself to know what do I need and who do I need right now exactly um especially celebrating a holiday without the loved one becomes pretty heavy and I think you know a lot of our clients kind of are going through that as well as they’re in treatment you know they’re sitting in treatment during Christmas and it’s hard and it’s lonely and it’s probably a little scary but it’s also about being intentional about what you’re doing that day quickly so I totally agree with that yeah and I think you know it’s just interesting you know you both talked about loss and I just recently very recently lost a very dear friend of mine as well and um any you know obviously the holidays are this time of of reflection and of introspection um and and usually I think about the holidays too as a time of transition especially these holidays like as we think about heading into the new year what do we need to change what do we need to address and adjust um I think that that feels um important thing to reflect on as well I know I’m sitting here doing it like like we’ve been talking as a clinical leadership team about what how we are going to take care of ourselves differently and hold each other accountable for that yeah you know I think the biggest thing with that is that self-care doesn’t have to be these big things like today if you celebrate Christmas whatever holiday that you and your family celebrate maybe that morning you wake up and it’s just a quick meditation to remind you to be present right just being very again intentional about the small things we’re doing to take care of ourselves and not thinking that we have to do these big things at such a kind of sensitive time exactly yeah and I mean when I think about self-care I think about um just a small just a quick little story about my dad okay so every year he there was always a present under the tree from himself and it says to jot from my very best friend and all I’m like who is this friend you know and so about I say about six or seven years into sobriety I said dad you have to tell me who this best friend is he says well I eat with this this person every day I never have lunch or dinner without them everywhere I go I take them with me and I’m like is I’m thinking Uncle John I’m thinking you know you know what I mean no doubt he said he said my very best friend and I honor myself every Christmas I honor myself every day you know and that changed the whole scope of what self-care meant to me yeah you know and so as I grab those memories um it’s really really helping me to find my new Norm you know because you know he’s gone so now I gotta I gotta shape and mold some stuff you know what I mean and so that self-care is about um
how let me just say this self-care starts internally yep and once we get so once we self-care is about self-love self-care is about um how you talk to yourself self-care is removing yourself from unhealthy situations self-care is about treating yourself the way you treat your best friend I mean would you talk negative to your best friend you know what I mean yeah no I wouldn’t the things that we say to ourselves but we do that to the people that we love to our best friends yeah so respect yourself that’s another part of self-love uh to reach out for support when you can’t pull yourself out of a depression or you know isolation or whatever have you to be able to reach out to have that social network and that’s what I have with Peaks family you know um and I cherish every person in this company because we just wrap around each other you know and that is a huge part of self-care yeah what do you guys think yeah no I think I think you hit it right on the head 100 yeah like finding finding that worth inside of ourselves that we deserve self-care yeah yeah can certainly be a challenge at times and especially Lauren you talked about trying to take care of everyone else like I think that’s a pretty typical thing that happens around the holidays is trying to make everything else perfect everything around you perfect how to make sure everybody’s experience um is great for them meanwhile not taking care of oneself or putting oneself last like that is it that can be a challenge absolutely well and I think there’s a part of it too of like what do I deserve during the holiday season and when we start asking ourselves what we deserve we start questioning our worth in a big way and so being able to say no I deserve love during the holiday season I deserve to be seen I deserve my community during this season you know no matter how hard it is I know that this is what I deserve because I’m inherently worthy of the love because I’m a human being yeah and so being able I really love how you said that is just like being your best friend even in your darkest time yeah but it Maybe not maybe the holidays are your favorite time of year which is also amazing Embrace that as well stay present in that right um but I I think you said it beautifully Beau
only the other thing that we were talking a little before the show too is we were honestly scrambling to figure out what we’re going to talk about we did talk about um seasonal affective disorder um or or just pretty much feeling depressed this time of year um which is a real thing for sure uh there’s obviously way less sunlight out and sunlight available and I know I drive to work mostly in the dark and drive home certainly in the dark and um and that can be difficult to kind of walk through and not feel depressed and um yeah you know we’ve had we’ve had Dr elardi on this show actually a couple times and um certainly talking about working through depressed like taking steps to work through feelings of depression whether it’s what we eat or trying to get sunlight on our face or using a Light lamp or um um yeah just those sorts of things I think are really important and I think it’s pretty normal like even if you don’t have even if people don’t have the actual uh seasonal affective disorder it is pretty normal for this just kind of be kind of a quieter more down time I think for for people yeah absolutely you know and and what we bring to our clients you know during this time when they’re you know in treatment for uh substance abuse mental health uh issues is to you know trying to disrupt that system that they’ve they’ve functioned in for so long you know and I think us having different activities our curriculum and uh the self-care and and and thing and challenging them to find uh things that they like about themselves you know what I mean I mean when I was in treatment guys I had to learn how to like something about me and it started with my big toe it was so serious I haven’t noticed your big toes yeah yeah I was like okay I like that toe yeah you know and and my therapist had me decorate that toe wow I made it look real fantastic you know what I mean so and everything that you know from that point that I found uh that I liked about myself I would dress it up and I would showcase that and after a while you know I just felt like okay I think I’m all right with me you know so you know just looking at it from a different Avenue and that’s what we do at Peaks we um we we’re we’re outside of the box you know and what we bring back in the box is helpful to our clients and um and then we practice we do our best to practice what we’re teaching and to practice what we’re asking our clients to do yeah I think it’s what I wanted to kind of highlight too is not only the clients but the staff I think you know um we serve a population that is very high risk for you know death or hurting themselves or any of these things and I think it does take a toll on us as clinicians on us as a staff even for medical to residential we all carry this weight we carry this weight of you know I we’re serving those around us who desperately need love and attention and then we sometimes forget about ourselves we don’t really give back to ourselves in that way we we tell the clients this is how you become your best friend this is what you need to do and sometimes we get a little lost in it and so I think even for professionals out there anyone who is working in this field during this time of year just really being intentional about what your self-care looks like exactly what am I doing for me as I’m helping people move through the loneliest time of their life being in treatment on a holiday is hard it’s very hard and so how am I making sure that I am not taking everything on and then I’m being weighed down as as well and I think that’s such a huge thing to mention is that we as professionals are humans I think there are times when clients or other people are like oh you do this beautiful amazing work you’re so great and it’s like I’m still a human I still hurt I still get bogged down I still I I still struggle just like anyone else so being intentional about showing up for myself has been so huge around this holiday season because I know I can show up for the clients but I can’t show up for the clients unless I show up for myself first for yourself yeah right yeah that’s exactly right
the other thing I thought of is as you guys were talking is um
we’ve all been with Peaks for a long time now and um I wonder if you guys have any memories of working on a Christmas day or a Christmas Eve or or whatever what with clients and what that was like like what what do we do for them and and how do we help them kind of navigate a day that they’re likely doing their own reflection and and all that because I know I mean I can think of how many clients like this is kind of a time of year where we don’t have as many people in our program because it is the holidays and people want to be with their families obviously but we’ve had I can think of many clients who have said this is the best Christmas I’ve had in a very long time um but I don’t know do any any memory specific or just kind of in general um I can remember like when I first got here I was working with in the women’s program and um I can remember just you know challenging them to think about the things that they liked about previous Christmases and then we made that dream come true um whether it be playing board games or dressing up you know or doing self-care or whatever whatever it was but it was good to see them interact and actually
reinvent the things that made their holidays great let’s let’s say before trauma or you know in a specific time of their lives where they really felt supported bringing those good memories to life and showing them that it’s not forgotten and it’s not gone just because we’ve experienced you know trauma or our addiction has taken it it hasn’t taken it we just put it on the back shelf now we gotta pull it off and dust it off yeah and re-implement it into our lives you know so I can remember that really easily yeah yeah I have spent more Christmas as it Peaks than I think I have with my family at this point I mean I I but you know what as we force you to yeah I’m forced everybody I’m just kidding um no I it for me it is a day of just giving and receiving love within the community we have I remember one year we did and I think we’re doing this this year too is we do white elephant gets gifts on Christmas and I think one thing that we really really really try to do is make the day as meaningful as we can because we understand you’re not home with your family we understand that this is a really hard time for you and so how do we make this as meaningful as we can whether that be gingerbread houses decorating ornaments we do white elephant we’re gonna go see you know the light show and I think for me my favorite part of it all was watching we had talked about this before is like watching the clients just laugh together watching them just be present and open their gifts and steal each other’s gifts and I remember this one client we had got a onesie as a gift and pretty sure he wore the onesie the rest of his treatment episodes yes he did and it was it’s just a time where as much sadness and heaviness is there it’s actually really beautiful because they feel loved they feel seen they feel connected to each other they want to laugh they want to do these things and it’s just like that’s all it is it’s just about being there I’m another human just being with other humans and we’re trying to make the best out of a day that is a little hard for us in treatment but yeah I the laughter on Christmas Day is my favorite a hundred percent it is it is a I mean I think it’s something pretty magical I think that Peaks does is because it is a day where every like it kind of flattened things out a little bit like everybody’s celebrating Christmas together it isn’t just you know giving people a celebration it’s actually celebrating Christmas with them is kind of what I hear both of you describing on the on the holidays and I think that really matters celebrating the holidays yes together yeah and I think I think that um you know working on the intake team being on the front line and uh myself and my team Landing our clients you know and making them doing our best to to love them to wrap around them to to create a safe space for them and then especially around the holidays if we can create that safe space that we can really tap into that genuine laughter that genuine joy and I believe that most of our clients feel that safety yeah you know and if they don’t feel the safety in the entire you know their peer group I know that there are more than five people that they do find that comfort and that safety in and so that right there just opens up the flower to to start to bloom so um yeah yeah even letting go of some guilt and shame of not being home right like we have clients who are home or in treatment who have kids at home who have you know their families are home and it didn’t but the biggest thing that we teach is that like this is an investment in you yes you’re missing this Christmas but think about all the Christmases you get to go to next time exactly think about all the other holidays what whatever is celebrated within the season you get to now show up as you at those holidays you don’t have to show up as this person you’ve created in order to survive in a environment that was unsafe to you at some point no you actually get to spend the rest of the Christmases with your kids as you and I think that’s one of the coolest things and one of the things that I definitely pushed during this time of year is that this one Christmas is worth all the other Christmases you get and all the other holidays you get totally I think we also get to demonstrate too that that we all have family and then we also can have family of choice and like yeah um and they don’t have to be mutually exclusive like you can have both you can have people that you love and cherish in your family and people that you love and church outside your family to celebrate um in that way as well um so I as we as we kind of wrap up I do I do want to just thank you both uh you know like I said this wasn’t really planned but like um it is fun to have those of us who’ve been doing this for a minute like we’ve known each other for a while now and um and I’m honored uh to know you both and to be on kind of this journey uh you know this this work family is it’s kind of family-ish um it’s good uh and I really enjoy it but but I do I thank you guys for coming on here uh today and and with that uh I we are going to bring this episode to a close uh feel free to follow us on uh Spotify I think in apple podcasts and uh probably Facebook um some tick tocks Lauren I think went viral recently I did thanks to you maybe he’s not full viral maybe a cold or something I don’t oh sorry um and then uh
please follow us uh you know so don’t hesitate to email in uh questions or comments we’d love to respond to those as well and with that uh have a good holiday

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Episode 84Addressing Veterans, Pain, Mental Health, and RecoveryWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/YhT0qv-H7RwListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Brandon and Clinton speak with two special guests, authors Dr. Kerry and Dr. Dustin Brockberg. Their book, “End Your Covert Mission: A Veterans Guide to Fighting Pain and Addiction,” stands as an honest and authentic Manuel for veterans and sheds light on a meaningful discussion surrounding veteran-related issues. Dustin Brockberg shares his experiences as a veteran and the nuances that impacted his adjustment back to civilian life. At the same time, Kerry Brockberg speaks on the psychological aspects met while creating this book. This impactful conversation takes the viewers on a run-through of the most impactful moments in the pages and the most effective steps to transitioning back into civilian life and coping with pain and mental health. To find the Brockberg’s information or to purchase their book, check out their website at https://www.drsbrockberg.com/

Talking Points1. Introduction to the Brockberg’s 2. Addressing myths about going to therapy 3. The importance of talking 4. A change in identity 5. Veteran voices 6. “Earned” pain 7. Coping with pain 8. “ACE” Quotes

“Pain is something that I think is helpful to unify us rather than feeling so distant when someone goes through addiction or recovery, mental health, chronic pain. There’s a very significant feeling of being distant within this community.”– Dr. Kerry Brockberg, Ph.D.

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 84 Transcriptsmy name is Brandon Burns chief executive officer for Peaks recovery centers excited to bring what are we bringing today we’re bringing some authors we’re bringing some authors folks doctors grab your popcorn your soda as you do when Brandon Burns is the host because this is going to be good stuff we’re speaking to uh veterans active military members and the family systems here today really excited to bring this book forward before introducing our special guest today here on the finding Peaks episode I’ve got Clint Nicholson co-host LPC Lac Chief Operating Officer for Peaks all the clinical things all of them all the clinical things a touch of them and joined today by two incredible authors who’ve put together the book titled injure covert Mission a veteran’s guide to finding pain and addiction Clinton and I have had the special privilege already of reading it and all of you at home are going to read it shortly after this episode I know it because we’re bringing it to you so join today by Carrie and Dustin brockberg both phds Carrie brockberg is a licensed psychologist working in the field of Rehabilitation her current practice focuses on individuals with chronic pain brain injury and other chronic illnesses and disabilities she specializes in the development of tangible psychological approaches connecting the mind and body and better understanding overall functioning and quality of life all great words on the Scrabble board Dustin Brockport is a licensed psychologist working in the field of substance use and co-occurring disorders he served in the United States Army from 2004 to 2008 including a deployment to Iraq his clinical interests include veteran-related issues grief loss affect phobia and Trauma also great words on the Scrabble board thank you so much for being here you two welcome to the show thanks for having us yeah thanks so much totally so um so both Clinton and I certainly have had the opportunity to read through your text and uh when I started uh reading it uh I am I’m a civilian with very little military background in my life and it felt like um there was a particular tone in the way that the text was being written so you know off the bat here I would just love to know why you felt called to write this text for the viewers out there in the first place uh and and the tone that’s situated within that book um you know it it feels like at Peaks recovery centers there’s a straightforwardness to the text that doesn’t always feel like we have the privilege at Peaks to like talk to our you know patients in that way and so um just just want to know the why and certainly I want to understand the tone for those who might be on the civilian side of this not you know fully knowing why it’s being addressed in the way that it is so we’ll start there
absolutely well I can I can kind of just jump off on that so again thank you for having us so much um I think a big why to this book was uh really trying to fill a huge gap in the literature world around uh kind of connecting the worlds of veterans pain and mental health into one Fell Swoop um there’s tons of books out there that are really academically written a lot of APA citations all that kind of hoopla stuff which is all has a place in the world but there’s not really it wasn’t really a book out there that was directly written for people that are impacted by these issues in a really no-nonsense direct way and it really didn’t give a lot of good tools that they can literally read that page put it down and do it and so I think that was a big a big reason to the why um I also think that from my own personal experience of being a veteran uh one of the one of the hardest things is being able to actually connect or relate to something that’s being written about you and um I think a lot of folks in in recovery could probably identify with that mentality as well that there’s tons of theory and tons of things out there but there’s not so much ways a word’s going to talk right at you in the text which in a lot of ways our tone was doing just that of saying you need to stop it so you need to start this or things like that and so I think that was a big part of kind of creating some new literature that really hasn’t been done before I think too uh Brandon coming from also the civilian perspective and co-author here one thing that Dustin has shared with me from and I’ve actually observed from the veteran Community working with vets obviously having my own vet at home surprise surprise yes Dustin and I are married um but uh one thing that is just awesome about the veteran Community is the banter and the banter I think is something that just um you when you need another vet and you have that banter you bring in a little bit more straightforward direct no-nonsense as you pointed out there’s that connectivity just kind of immediately um and that was something that was super important in our book so not only just like directness but also you know you’re gonna find maybe a few curse words in the book too so it’s definitely a little bit you know it got away from our clinical side you know similarly um you know working within a more professional setting where you might not find us you know clinically talking in the same manner but it was kind of fun to bring that out in the book and I think it’s relatable um and makes it more of a page Turner if you if you ask me but absolutely yeah I get to be I kind of live in the middle of you guys I’m a military brat so I’ve had that uh there is a level of tone and directness that felt very familiar to a certain degree and also as a clinician though having this it was actually quite refreshing to just kind of I don’t know sometimes I feel like as clinicians we can really start we kind of fluff things up a little bit to try to make things land a little bit more easily for our population and our clients and this man that there was it just landed right away there was no fluff it was very very straight and to the point and it was very refreshing and also um I don’t know if there was something very empowering about that as well very and yeah so I’m curious again like that tone um what were some of the other maybe goals that you had having such a direct tone yeah thanks for saying all that Clinton that’s that’s awesome to hear that you you received it that way um you know I think when we were writing this book the biggest thing for us was we wanted to give folks hope um hope and empowerment feelings that they can take one message away or they can take 10 messages away they could try this today or they could try this in six months or five years um I think the feedback we’ve gotten from folks too is like you don’t have to necessarily start at the beginning of the book you could start at whatever chapter makes sense for you and where you’re at um so I think that you know that’s a part of where the tone comes from is you know we wanted to make this very approachable very accessible um which you know it really makes a difference for folks that are trying to take that first step especially in a book um so it’s it really that was our major goal I think as you’re writing and um hoping to reach our target audience so yeah and then just just to kind of piggyback off that too um I think a lot of a lot of veterans would probably connect to the idea that they want to use their time really in a really effective efficient way and so this book is built in just that mentality and so um similar to to what to what um Kerry said this idea that you can go to any part of the book and just go I think that’s a similar mentality that a lot of veterans have but I’d also argue that a lot of people that are going to pick up this book whether you’re a veteran or not is you want to be able to apply it you want to be able to do something with it and we want to respect that mentality that in today’s world you got to keep going right but a lot of people whether they’re being a veterans they’re in recovery um they’re working to get to get into recovery whatever it is that they’re done waiting for 1800 pages of a book to get to the final punch line versus every single chapter every single start of the chapter is a punch line right we’re trying to get at you right after that um and then kind of hold you to be able to kind of work within your system wherever you are in your life so I think it’s really trying to hook you at multiple ways yeah one of the one of the you know speaking still to the toward the tone of the book one of the things that it right when I got to this section I was like okay I’m tuned in I’m ready for this because it was like direct it felt like it was directed at me now but so I’m paraphrasing a little bit but it said something like okay say you have anxiety and you go to a counselor’s office I’ve got news for you right they’re not going to cure your anxiety that’s not their job right they’re they’re informing a toolkit here that you go and I think in parentheses after they say sorry to break it to you you know again that’s a very it’s ant it’s it’s certainly antithetical to fluff you know in that regard and what you might find in some clinical settings and from there I was just gripped moving forward and and for me that that word empowerment that you brought up is is what feels like you’re trying to inform as a tone there right that there that you come into this and we’ll get into the rucksacks and so forth but you come into this with a certain you know level of baggage and to get out of this moment it’s going to require your energy moving forward and that might be just getting into a therapist office in the first place uh it might now that you’re in a therapy office you know you’re you’re I think commonly what you know we find especially around mental health you know major depression you know past medication regiments and so forth don’t work there’s a defeatedness that can come out of that right and um without objectifying you know our sense about it right and empowering the individual it feels like we’re given a new capacity to move out of this phase that we’re in and so I just wanted to highlight that because that was the first point I was like I think there’s a tone here that’s essential in going through this and that they’re speaking directly to a military member differently maybe in the way that you know civilians would be approached I don’t know if you want to add more to that but that was a gripping sort of section of the book for me yeah yeah I would just add just to that point is you know there’s a level of honesty and almost authenticity that we’re trying to bring to this and you know as psychologists naturally be watching the therapist’s office we want to be able to help them to kind of work within your system kind of where you are but in the same breath we have to be real with you right if you go into the office under false pretenses and you know you assume that the first 10 minutes that your butt cheek hits that chair that you should be healed is not a realistic idea here very similar to a lot of people that assume if I have 10 symptoms of anxiety and medications can take away all ten no chance right that’s that’s not how that works and I think if folks can kind of continue to hear that new narrative it allows for an opportunity to be able to work within that new system versus if we just go into what we’re told to do or what culturally we’ve we’ve always done for example you have a headache you take a pill right that’s very that’s very regimented into your brain that’s how it works and we have to deconstruct that yeah and I think too one thing that um and we speak to this book yes you’re we’re talking to Veterans um but talking to I think veteran families or any individual that um knows a veteran or wants to learn more about veterans um the tone is very purposeful in that hey this might be an effective way to get in to talk to your veteran too um you know whether that’s a family member loved one a significant other partner um so you know it’s there’s sometimes there’s this um feeling of hesitancy I think within the recovery Community when you talk about addiction chronic pain put X in the line uh mental health it’s hard to talk about this stuff right and that’s a big theme in our book is talk I think one part we just like damn it just talk right so yeah say something yeah but but the thing is is like it’s hard it’s vulnerable it’s it’s scary and when the tone is very purposeful and that let’s not make this scary let’s make this understandable and natural and something that you know we’re all experiencing pain is an Universal experience how we deal with pain no one wants to feel that way um so it’s that’s also very much why we we came about it that way so yeah yeah I think the way that you guys utilized pain as sort of a a gateway to talk about everything else that was sort of opened the door and allowed um you know just being able to talk about pain in all of its different forms eventually started to there was this movement towards normalizing what people were experiencing but first normalizing that physical pain that we can all relate to and that we can uh and that we shy less away from but at the same time have that same need to like I want this gone like right now and uh really like Yeah you mentioned Dustin deconstructing those narratives and I think um that yeah I was I’m curious um obviously your your background carry is in pain management in pain but what was um what were some of the other reasons that you chose to use pain as sort of a vehicle to explore the rest of the mental health components
yeah I mean so I think you know Dustin and I we came together for this book and we tried to better understand you know how do people understand um themselves how do we go through different parts of our life um that we experience and you know I think pain is something that right away you think of physicality you know how something impacts you um quite physically whether that be chronic pain or acute pain um but when you think about kind of the layers about what we experience as humans the different things in our life the experiences that we have um that may be negative for us painful something being painful um is is very impressionable for us as we we talk about addiction as we talk about different social experiences or mental health experiences someone specifically of course veterans experience transitioning out of the military but um pain is something that I think is helpful to unify us a little bit more than rather than feeling so distant um when someone is going through addiction recovery mental health chronic pain and there’s a very significant feeling of being distant within this community I’m the only one experiencing this no one experiences is like I do um so you know this come together moment we Dustin and I really talked about how do we make people feel part of something how do we develop more of this community um and pain just seemed to be this more widespread understanding um I don’t know going haha back to psychology right there’s only a few feelings or experiences that are Universal but I think when you say pain people are like yeah that is that was painful and that was you know something that and so I think you see that throughout our book right we kind of diversify what pain is how that shows up in addiction how that shows up for veterans mental health through the biopsychosocial lens that we form up at the beginning of the book and kind of break down later so yeah absolutely yeah just to add to that just really briefly is the there’s also a cultural component to this concept of pain right so um how different races and ethnicity gender sexual orientations whatever it is it all has a cultural lens to how a person interprets pain and whether pain is a good thing or a bad thing right so um for example in the military if somebody goes through a painful events that doesn’t necessarily mean that’s a bad thing and what I mean by that is that it might create um strength resilience it might be empowering for the person to kind of get through a hard event versus um if you feel like you’re alone in the pain and then all of a sudden that context changes of it being good to bad right so I think that those are all things that we can spend um in a lot of ways right so whether it be a person that’s coming right out of a deployment and how they experience pain that they experience pain physically or emotionally while they’re in in their actual deployment um all that the context continues to change their definition of what that means though
yeah beautiful excuse me I was I was reminded of a quote so I just pulled it up on my phone there for the book that I want to I want to bring to the viewers but before I dive into these fantastic little statements and insights you guys have in these books that are that are worthwhile and uh key takeaways uh the metaphor throughout the book is right okay if you’re in the military and you have a mission coming up right whether it’s a covert Mission or whatever the case might be you want to be prepared for that mission and you want to show up in the best possible way so you have a rucksack right and you’re going to pack that rucksack with all of the things that are going to get you through that mission and get you home safely at the end of the day you know maybe it’s a pocket knife you know maybe it’s your medical kit whatever the case might be and what we’re stuffing in there so valuable and important and I’m just without me stealing the show of this metaphor throughout the book um you know just love for the viewers to hear kind of your guys’s takeaway and the value of that um ultimately the value of of that metaphor throughout the book
I can I can I can start with that here so I think uh a bit a big part of the metaphor is to change your gear right is to change Dr rucksack to clean it out um and that’s not to say that it that the gear you have is wrong right so for a lot of for a lot of folks uh in the veteran community they had a lot of gear that helped them survive unspeakable just events that very few folks learn what happened and um there’s a level of emotional attachment to that gear right it got you through a very hard moment in your life and so whether that gear is a very physical piece of gear of a hat or a shirt or if it was a mentality or if it was a rule of I will not do this I will not show this I will not talk about this that gear is pretty narrow deep in there for them and so I think that um there’s a level of surrender or almost acceptance that we can put down that piece of gear and put new gear in there that is more efficient for you in this in the civilian world and um that takes time right that’s not an easy transition to make and some veterans are able to change out some gear pretty fast and some veterans really struggle with it and um that doesn’t make one writer wrong but it often does correlate to certain issues that we see and so for example some veterans are more than willing to talk about their experience in the military some veterans won’t talk about anything right and so those rules are different um and their relationship with that gear is different and so a big part of this book is acknowledging validating that yes this gear is important to you yes we want to honor that and what would happen if you took one chance and just took down one piece of gear to see what would happen did it actually is it is this is a a better version of it it’s kind of like uh you have your old Flashlight let me give you a brand new one that’s even better that can be more work than usual yeah just give it a chance right and so I think that’s a big metaphor that we continue to kind of hammer in in this book yeah and I would uh just kind of build off that a little bit I think something that was so important for us writing this book together was we wanted to actually give actual strategies um and that is huge for you know any community that is actually trying to make differences and changes and um so it’s not just this metaphorical idea of you know let’s change out our gear let’s you know this is something that you should be thinking about and we actually do I mean we have reflective questions throughout as well of course but we have actual tangible next steps is what we we call them for folks to you know switch out that gear switch out the strategies that they’re trying um you know I always joke with my clients you know why are you here to see me and they’ll be like uh because I want help I’m like no no let’s get to it why are you here and and a lot of times it’s like well okay yeah you know it nothing else has worked and I’m at the point now where yeah I I know I need you I know I know I need to I need help I need help everything else I’m exhausted right like and I’m always like yes let’s be honest let’s be right there right so the same thing you know when someone picks up a book you know you’re trying to think about like gosh things aren’t working right now so what can I gather is there something in here that I can gather and that’s the big thing too right so the the metaphorical rucksack but also like Hey we’re gonna give you some strategies to try to switch out see what works um and Dustin and I are huge we’re huge on hey not everything is gonna work for you in the book um you know see what works try it out if it doesn’t work switch it up do something else different so we give a lot of options just for that reason so that’s beautiful yeah and it reminds me when you guys sorry Dustin go ahead yeah well I was going to add just to add to that really fast too is that similar what we were talking about earlier around um going into therapy and kind of deconstructing that narrative there’s also a level of you know if you do try a new tool it might not be the best fit initially right it’s kind of like putting out a new pair of shoes you got to get used to it right and so it’s going to wear in a little bit and so that that’s also a big part of this too is that when you do try a new tool when you do try to kind of put your foot in the water and you tap it to see what happens it takes a second to get used to that temperature right so I think there’s a level level of almost taking a chance too absolutely and I think it actually I was just reminding me I think there’s a part in there where you guys talk about how in the military there’s a manual for everything and uh there’s not necessarily a manual for this transition back into becoming a civilian this transition of uh trying to deal with uh you know pain psychological sociological um physical what what have you and so it does feel there is a manual ish component to the book where it does start to give you some of those tools and it gives you Direction you know and I think that that is a really important something that again and clinically we can typically can shy away from is that idea of being directive within the actual clinical world and within the clinical relationship but here it feels very natural and it feels very um at this it feels I don’t know you guys do spend a lot of time normalizing certain things throughout the book and that is a again something that made it feel very excess accessible but yeah I think that there is uh it just reminds me of that idea of like there’s no manual for for this so but here here’s a start you know here’s something to get you going so yeah yeah and then I I think at you know uh at this juncture for me as well too the thing that I want to highlight um and really just to start to sink the teeth into this because I think it’s so important that we’re speaking uh this book isn’t I think this book can work for anybody at the same time it’s speaking very directly to uh a set group of individuals and sinking our teeth into the text the the I the component of identity and sort of an identity crisis and I think one of the very powerful messages and and I’ve seen this in other written text about war and community and tribalism and all of these aspects of the military that you get right but there was something that just kind of broke my heart in the book it was one of the quotes I can’t remember the name of the beginning of the chapter but basically it was a military you know person State when I got into the military you eat with you know each other you you fight with each other you you know you you go back and forth with each other you exercise together you’re tired together you get injured together you’re exhausted you fight for each other together and then when you step outside of the military and you step into a job uh in that regard yeah people you know maybe help out in the job environment and those sorts of things but but you you go from this full force I got your back into an office space that’s like well I’m working on something that’s important over here I’ll get to you later and um and I was just so disheartening and uh and I and I really just want to bring that to light because there are real challenges from transitioning to military life into civilian life and I’ve even I got a I got a military buddy of mine or whatever and I was just talking about my civilian stuff and what’s going on and he was just like I know I’m kind of glad I haven’t made that transition into that yet you know and there’s a there’s a special feature within the military that honors that sort of communal aspect of things and it’s a real empowered identity component and would just love for you you know both of you to share in you know your perspective and why you were bringing that into the book and in the first place and what you’re honoring with uh within those texts
yeah that’s a wonderful Point um I I think in a lot of ways when when a person is entering the military there is a change in identity when they’re in the military there’s a change in identity when they’re leaving relationship to change the identity right it’s a constant shift and um you know I grief is probably the best word that I think of when somebody’s transitioning out of the military because there’s such a culture shock that tends to happen whether it’s active duty or National Guard you’re still transitioning different ways of perceiving the world and um I think that’s important to be honored and understood and in the same breath I you know we actually talk about this later on in the book around this idea that when um when when a person comes home from the military let’s say they join the military at 18 they get out at 22-23 and they get home and they they go to this landscape they go to this restaurant all their friends are there and next to their friends are all their spouses and their kids and they got their college degrees and you’re just like what just happened I just lost five years of my life and I did this great honorable thing um had a lot of stuff a lot of stories to tell right and no one knows how to talk to me because they can’t connect to what I went through they are clearly a different stage of my life and so there’s this immediate like all kind of earlier saying it’s the idea of being alone being isolated being left out and um and then so naturally kind of a few things happen there one we go to try to find a community and it’s harder than you think you know and then there’s also this piece around you know do you go to common places like the VA or pfws or places like that where you know you’re going to find people of your community um or do you grab onto that old gear of hunker down and kind of keep going right and then we also see that and there’s plenty as well so um I think that’s it’s important I understand when you do encounter a person that is leaving the military or getting ready to leave the military that is exactly the time to kind of reach out and be like how where are you at how are you doing because um whether or not they see it as a problem or not um it’s not necessarily a problem but it is something to be honored and understood and so um I think you know the more proactive we can get with that the better it will be yeah absolutely yeah and I think you know the the piece that you’re bringing up Brandon is you know this idea of like the individualistic versus collectivistic approach that you know maybe we know from different cultures and backgrounds and um you know I can’t tell you the number of veterans I’ve worked with where this is it breaks my heart it’s hard to hear that and it’s hard to um see the pain that they go through of feeling like that there’s not the joint Mission or there’s not the joint value system that was so hammered in for so you know long or even short periods of time but was just highlighted as like a core belief system of like this is how we go about things um and when you have that hammered in as a core belief system and it’s been a successful right so then you they see successes from that quarterly system of working together and then you get back into civilian life and jobs and family and there’s this more individualistic like let’s let how do I succeed myself rather than this work together mentality it is very difficult to navigate that um so exactly what Dustin said that feeling of grief being alone um and it’s it brings back a lot of pain it brings about well how do I deal with this now and um that’s when we see folks maybe turning to unhealthy coping strategies and um having more depression and anxiety and um it’s very tough so I’m glad you’re bringing that up Brandon that’s a very important part of the book yeah yeah and I and just to keep that thread going as well too uh in recognition I think we got we got to find out better ways on the civilian side of things to talk to Veterans and talk to active military I mean another part of the book that broke my heart is right like common experiences of military members from civilians like I mean I’m going to say because it’s in the book but like did you kill someone you know like ah no don’t ask that question it I mean I can’t imagine asking that question myself I don’t I don’t know how as a civilians we’re trying to make connections there or why that’s a cool thing but that’s not why people get in the military to kill it’s an unfortunate aspect of you know battles and War and those types of things but I’m sharing this and hopefully you know uh for your two from year two professional lenses and certainly dust in your own experience is like what what are some like recommendations for how to approach military members I mean I feel like curiosity is key here um but you know what advice can we give to civilians to just better approach our military service members so veterans are active military even family systems so that we don’t come forward with such I don’t know such naive statements and questions about the service great great question so I think um uh there’s a there’s a few things there so I think in in one of the one of the key aspects of this is just to your point that people are curious people don’t have the language or know how to necessarily connect or talk but I think the key word in that is connect right so um you know I I was very fortunate you know in high school I had a you know a group of like 10 guys and we’re still friends right and so one of one of the one of the most sharest moments I had was when I actually came back from the military um they all kind of picked me up from the airport and in that car ride I couldn’t tell you how many questions are being asked right and and it was just like what what where did you come up with that idea like where do you think this is and um and and and they were coming at it from Pure care love concern curiosity there was nothing meant to be insulting or to insinuate anything I think that’s one of the things we also talk about too in the book is is the idea that it’s not personal right that a lot of people just don’t know any better and I think the same thing happens with people in recovery too so I also want to kind of kind of hit on that as well that folks are going through addiction recovery people don’t understand how to talk to people that are in recovery and that’s such an important I I idea to understand that they’re really trying to understand where you are and it’s not it’s not meant to be a flight or something of that nature um my My Philosophy and I say this not only in my personal life but I even say professionally I think about this idea a lot of playing dumb and it’s a weird it’s a weird uh strategy here but it’s actually quite effective and that is that don’t make any assumptions just assume you know nothing and approach it in that way and you will often find a better narrative than pre-assuming what you think they’re going to say and then asking a question with a with an agenda for example so I think that um approaching veterans in that way is is a much more helpful approach than what we have done in the past yeah and I I would add so talking from someone where I’ve asked Dustin lots of questions I think in the beginning of our you know our book um that’s how we open it up is like this is how I mean we personally have navigated our relationship and me trying to better understand his experience in the military and um now as a veteran and um I think yeah twofold here right like trying not to come at and there’s a whole section about this like things that are very typical because you’re a veteran right dot dot dot fill in the blank and it’s like okay let’s let’s build on that idea that assumption or these biases that maybe you’ve seen in movies or you talk to One veteran and that was their experience and like let’s not generalize out right um and then I think what Dustin is beautifully saying is this idea of hoping to have a kind heart of coming at the person that’s asking these questions in a way that is um open and not assuming that it’s a negative thing um and I I think that’s something that um it brings both sides together so not just this feeling of and that’s what our book really tried to do was talk about both sides you know how as a veteran do you handle that when that is being asked and then also hopefully helping readers that are non-veterans understand like how can we ask and not make assumptions um I’m going to give a little example the not playing dumb question or way of Dustin so I think one thing that and this is so it’s not plain dumb but it’s you know the the asking for clarification or more understanding of what that means if you know someone asks you that question of you know did you kill someone which is oh that is heavy right you know maybe our response is you know I’m just curious what made you ask that and I think that people then can reflect back like oh [ __ ] why did I ask that excuse my language I don’t know if we’re allowed to curse you know we’re talking to military members here we’re good I think right and but sometimes like coming at that it’s not like this like you know what the hell why’d you ask an e-rated it’s like what made you ask me that and then sometimes that reflection back the person might be like I don’t know I guess I just thought and it’s like hey yeah I get that you’re asking that in this way and that might be a sense of a thing like or maybe you’re open with that person and that leads to a really deep conversation but sometimes these more like neutral ways of getting into conversations you know what made you ask that or I’m just curious you know that Curiosity piece that you’re bringing up um can just kind of help neutralize really heavy heavy stuff that veterans experience and on the other side maybe that question or Vision that civilians might think that you know a serviceman member had experienced so yeah in a and I want to pass the torch here to Clinton in just a sec but just to tie that up you know I’m trying to be like a clever host here and that you guys wrote the book and you’re bringing the book right to the assumptions right you know when you when you make assumptions you make an asset of you and me it’s the beginning of one of your chapters uh there as well too and so I’m grateful that you you pulled that out of the text for us out of really in that question and it’s challenging too because did you kill someone I mean as as one of the quotes stated in the books I mean you know soldiers are unfortunately especially in the Iraq you know Afghanistan conflict amine rifles at children uh not out of a desire whatsoever to do so but it’s the environment that they’re in and so a question like that um can uh can just be so devastating I can imagine for a military personnel because we’re not always pointing guns at what we perceive as enemies in that way so uh before I I fire off more about these incredible aspects of the books I think I think Clinton’s engine to say something oh I oh I’m honestly I’m just thinking about how what you guys were just talking about actually would translate really well into the clinical world as well as especially for clinicians and professionals who have not experienced the military or a very limited experience with the military because I uh you guys do you really normalize that hesitation or maybe a lack of feeling like there would be a connection between somebody who was a veteran and a professional who is not but also our very pragmatic in saying that hey that’s what seven percent of the population and you know your the chances are if you’re going to look for help if you’re gonna if you’re gonna follow these steps if you’re going to take that leap and take that risk chances are you’re going to be working with somebody who is not has not had those experiences um but I also I think that there’s a responsibility as a professional for us to be able to to know how to navigate those situations because I guarantee you in grad school I did not take a like working with veterans class like that was not offered so um I just yeah I and I guess my question would be is does that I’m assuming that those same kind of strategies would work in the clinical realm but are there other clinical approaches that you might recommend are there other ways that uh you guys have recognized um you know non-veteren or non-military professionals uh have had luck with or been or maybe things that we should shy away from as professionals
okay okay I was just gonna say so um and I think towards the end of the book we have a few quotes so that’s like one of my favorite parts of the book is that we have veteran voices so we call it the veteran voice and we actually reached out to a bunch of veterans that spoke and we had actually the literal list that we asked to the veterans is the bat it’s in the last chapter I think of the book um or towards the end of the book anyway um and I can’t tell you the number of quotes that we got from veterans because we asked them what would you want a clinician to know um and there was so many quotes that were just like be patient be patient and I think being patient comes with you know you’re not gonna go out the get-go like tell me about your experience and all the difficult hard things that you went through it’s okay pacing and I’m sure you’ve you know other clinicians have heard that like the importance of pacing and that’s really important with Veterans of pet pacing and letting folks come at their own rate of what they want to share when they want to share it that control piece um especially if you’re working with them with trauma right that’s a that’s a big deal 100 yeah um that would be my biggest thing is that patience peace pacing um remembering you know letting your client share what they want um especially if you know someone’s been through a lot of trauma um and perceived trauma so you know right like maybe I’m perceiving that as the clinician is traumatic but maybe they’re not there yet and we they haven’t named that for them so um I think that’s really important actually that I want and Dustin please build off of that but I do want to kind of bring that because I can’t I don’t think we can leave what Brandon said kind of in the wind about you know the the piece about the children and I you know I just want to say our book definitely hits and is heavy there’s different parts I mean that’s a heavy heavy part of our book right um and I think that you know this is an important time to say this you know as we’re all talking about this of the sensitivity of that and recognizing that veterans and Military members have probably experienced and seen a lot of things that non-civilians have seen and Justin I want you to please build on this of course from your experience but I think that we bring these stories into the book in hopes to really bring about an understanding of this is heavy this isn’t something to be flippant about and we want to really acknowledge and respect that so um I just and that that kind of builds off of like how you kind of go into working with veterans right so um but Justin please definitely expand on that I just couldn’t leave that in the wind that was definitely something and thank you for for doing that Carrie so yeah much appreciated yeah um uh so I think there’s a few pieces of that too because I think uh in a lot of ways yes the book is very heavy and one of the best pieces of a book is you can always put it down right so if something’s hitting you you need a moment just put that book down right it’s gonna be waiting for you to get back right um and so I think that that’s such an important piece versus sometimes you feel like you’re in positions where you can’t leave you can’t not talk about it you’re feeling cornered by somebody to talk about something that’s hard so I think that this is also a great part of the book but um one of the aspects that I think is important you know whether it be a very specific situation involving children or um things that goes against your value systems you know the the concept of moral trauma is a really important piece in this uh around understanding the things that you do um or have to do as part of your job that goes against your value systems or things that you see that go against your value systems um I should talk about this a lot with my patients um in the substance use treatment that I I work in around the things that you do Under the Influence you never do sober right and so how do you how do you make sense are the actual disconnect or even distance between what you did who you think you are and who you actually are right so there’s there’s all this stuff to make sense of there um and so I think that’s an important aspect to also kind of think of when you’re working with a veteran as well that whether or not we’re making assumptions that their deployment was traumatic or not whether or not they might share a story with you that they kind of laugh about oh I saw this and oh I saw that ha ha ha and our heads were like what what did you just say like that’s why that’s awful um it might not necessarily be that to them and that’s not to say that they’re cold or they don’t care but it’s also a defense mechanism right that they had to use dark humor to get through a really hard moment and so we have to honor that and kind of not approach that with any sort of assumption so I think that that’s one piece of it uh to answer your question as well around how to work with veterans I think also taking a cultural component to it veterans love to use acronyms veterans love to um you know use different words or code names or um you know a lot of last names are used when they talk about buddies and things like that as well and so being able to say like I heard you just say this acronym whatever it is what what is that right and so then you have a whole hour-long session of what what they go through and that one month in January right so I think that there’s there’s opportunities in all those stories and um and then that probably would be another piece of it too is taking A Narrative Approach where the veteran can be really effective because they’ve got the stories and they for some people either they haven’t been asked the right way or they haven’t been given the space to actually talk about it and so um I think that that’s also another way to kind of think of how to work with veterans absolutely that’s great yeah beautiful and so gosh there’s there’s so many awesome I mean we could go into like Solutions we can keep there’s so many great aspects we won’t be able to peel all the layers but that’s why you’re going to go out and buy the book Folks at the end of this uh episode at the end of the day I mean speaking of both civilians and Military members I think it has value on both sides of this um and in certain worthy certainly worthy of an investing in you know the the book as we kind of started with starts with kind of pain man physical pain management and symptoms around that and it’s a starting point to talk about pain because we I think we all fundamentally understand or as a common experience both civilians and Military members that physical aspect of things but it feels important to start with that in it I’m gonna so I’m gonna pose it as a question here without reeling through all the pain you know trauma and so forth throughout the book but is it a common experience for you guys in your work with veterans that they come in and they’re only associating pain with the physical and that’s why it starts there to get give them room to explore how this all contributes maybe to physical emotion trauma pain and so forth
I think it’s a little I have a very biased I you know I’m working so a lot of times people are coming to me because they have something you know going on physically so I I think my I might be a little skewed My Lens might be very different than and so I would like Dustin maybe dig into this so I mean I’m working with a lot of chronic pain patients um and um I think that what my experience has been with working with vets is that sometimes talking about the physicality and how that’s such a trickle-down effect to you know the things that it gets in the way of like not being able to do a lot of the things that they would necessarily um or that they would have done um previously and the physicality of being in the military and how you know physically rigorous that can be and how that’s changed for them now that they’re you know back is you know such a problem and you know they’re not able to go and do the things that they were with their grandkids or their kids that they want and um so I I think sometimes that that that’s I see that trickle down very easily um and sometimes too I I and I I think this is why we intentionally put it first is um physical pain not always but can be more um visible and that’s a huge huge part of um you know exploring pain addiction I mean a lot of times experiences are invisible so people can’t see what someone is going through and then there’s this intangible well I can’t see it so how is that still happening and I oh it just makes my skin crawl because it’s like oh well so are we just going to invalidate that because we can’t see something but um you know sometimes when the physical pain aspects there are things that you can physically see with you know an MRI or a CT scan or you know if an amputation had happened for them um so I think that sometimes that that can be a little bit of a easier way to get in and talk about pain um and then that trickle down effect so um but I’m very very biased because a lot of my patients already are coming for you know the rehab sense of um why they come see me so Dustin curious about your experience with beds yeah well I probably have a similar bias with substance abuse because yeah I’m working you know primarily with that but um I would say I would say yes to a certain extent you do see a good amount of physical pain or chronic pain that coincide with with uh a veteran’s presentation but I think um I think you know if we also look at the cultural component to similar to to 12 just said or this idea that it’s more visible it’s also what I would call earned and what I mean by that is um so you know when I was in the military I was a 19 kilo which is a fancy word of saying I was a tanker so my my running joke because I was small enough to fit into a tank so we did that for a while uh and uh I think I think you know that’s great it’s fun it’s like a big turtle I love it um and you got to jump down off eight feet ten feet all the time and your knees are just done within a couple of years that the first part and so um but that’s also earned right that’s part of my job I had to jump down even though manual they told you you know three points of contact get down there slowly you didn’t always do that um and so um I think there’s also this level of again a it’s a narrative it tells you can you learn a lot about their pain through the story of how they got it um but there’s also this level of um culturally what’s safe to talk about and what’s not safe to talk about based on the gear that they have right so um whether it be visible or not physical pain is something that a lot of folks can see they can they can understand they can help in some ways too um but that can almost mask what’s going on underneath too and so I think there’s a level of yes that’s there that’s an important part of this but there’s other things that maybe they’re doing to also then manage that pain right are they using substances to manage that pain to be able to go to their grandkids baseball game right and so are they using alcohol are they using opioids what are they doing to try to get through that and then what message is that saying to them and you’re just kid you’re just layering this now um and so we have to pull out all those layers to understand it yeah I love that you’re bringing the earned piece up because that is something that is a um a giant part of the feeling of like it this is earned then I you know I’m resilient I I’ve earned this and I’m supposed to be able to persevere and be resilient and um you know I think that’s a large message right that we talk about in our book is this idea of in the military pain too is something that you’re supposed to smush down and keep going um and there’s a lot of veterans that I’ve worked with that hadn’t just keep going I’m just going to keep going and that’s a huge part with physical pain especially where it’s like wait a second wait a second if we keep going how many days after you keep going are you then out for the count because you kept going um and we we talk about pacing and how like you know if we if we Pace a little bit then we might be able to do more the next few days and um so it’s this again this trying to re-learn that yes so here’s how this worked and served you and why this felt earned in this moment but now now that we’re trying that that same mentality um after military um it’s different you’re you’re pushing through and it’s hurting you for a whole week and oh my goodness now your quality of life you’re missing out on all these things that you wish you were doing um and guess what there’s nothing to earn for missing out this is you missed out now and so it’s that’s a really entrenched belief system as well so I’m so happy brought that up Dustin it’s a great point out and uh you know I yeah I climb a lot of the Mounds here and the old Rocky Mountains that we get to live in here beautiful Rocky Mountains in Colorado and that three points of contact makes a ton of sense when like you’re on a mountain you’re just in you know you know the the blue skies or whatever take your time and that sort of thing and I it’s interesting Dustin that you pointed out there’s a manual for three points of contact how to get in a tank but like when you’re in that environment especially in intensity or you know bullets are flinging and all that stuff like the manual goes out the window and just getting a damn tank and like you know take off in that regard and I think it’s a it’s an interesting balance as well too or it’s coming up for me it’s not necessarily in the book but that transition into civilian life like in the in in the military life you got to look at a manual and say okay this makes sense for training now we’re now we’re in a real environment throw the manual out in civilian life it’s like you never really get to throw the manual how you kind of just you know HR departments and all of those things and so forth and like there’s a there’s a collision there of like just let me do my job and I I’m just curious if you could you know speak to you know maybe a little bit again about that sort of transitionary period and what that’s like for a military service member to go from an environment of which like you have an autonomy at any given moment to do what you feel is right versus what the manual is telling you to do is sort of a transition into civilian life yeah I think the first word that comes to my head is frustration right a lot of veterans are frustrated um I don’t I want to say all veterans but many veterans come home and they’re very frustrated by whether it be inefficiency how it ought to be done what worked for them um and whether they you know they they go into their first job host military and they have a certain way of working with a team swearing um how they want to communicate and it does not connect to the culture that is in that system or in that job or the organization and then again it goes back to that isolating like I’m different I’m alone no understands me like why why is this so hard um and so that that again can be a really tough transition for for a person um and I I think in a similar vein too that the idea that there there were the manuals and then there was kind of like the moral code and the right code and all these different kind of codes that we often had and um I would argue there’s still similar things there’s a way to kind of translate that in into the civilian world of like ethically or morally what’s right versus what you’re doing and I think that there’s a way to kind of create language to kind of have them meld together uh I just think again that takes time to understand that to understand where they’re coming from where the culture is coming from and kind of how they can kind of meld together and um sometimes time can be helpful for a person to kind of reintegrate back versus um the assumption that I get home I must just be back and that’s not that’s not a a an effective way of looking at it and so um it’s it’s honorable it’s it’s very admirable that you want to just kind of go back and jump right in and keep going which again is a very military mindset in in our book we also talk about the difference between military culture versus veteran culture and they’re distinctly different and um a lot of veterans a lot of people working with veterans don’t even always understand those differences because often our assumptions are based on Military culture based on what we see versus veteran culture you haven’t even entered it into that world yet right so you leave the military and all of a sudden you’re now in this new culture called veteran culture and you have no idea what the dorms are behaviors our attitudes are they’re supposed to just know it and so that again that was a huge disconnect to that so plenty plenty of opportunities there for sure yeah absolutely yeah and I know your your book is aimed at you know fighting both pain and addiction and I want to get to my to my cool quote here um to to kick this off because I’m telling you folks at home like there’s so many cool golden nuggets and statements like this uh but this is on the tangible next steps uh to change your gear and it is it comes after the question or several questions um but it says whatever your answer is to changing your gear know that substances are bad dysfunctional recall worthy maladaptive tainted [ __ ] pieces of gear um jeez I just love that gosh that just that’s a good one uh that all the that all the viewers can take home at the end of the day um so I I bring that quote up because you’re you’re asking in a way veterans to find better coping mechanisms around their physical pain their trauma pain you talk about you know opioids for physical pain you talk about benzodiazepines for um you know quelling emotionally even at times slightly physical pain um you know but anxiety and effects of that nature okay so you want me to go off this medication that’s provided in some net of safety um I think in our experiences at Peaks it’s it there’s certainly a scariness to that as well too because it is the protective layer that’s existed there but these drugs at the end of the day um are as you point out in your book are supposed to be used for short time periods but we’re talking about chronic conditions anxiety depression PTSD and so forth and so short-term episodes these things are going to work for but for chronic conditions they are not going to work for so maybe you’re sitting in front of a military you know member veteran and so forth and they say like well I’m in pain underneath this you know and it sounds like in that regard maybe there’s a non-caring about that pain and a discomfort from moving through that as a challenge but we have to replace the the rucksack with these tools right because drugs and alcohol are short-term relief but they’re not going to work for chronic conditions and would just love for you guys to speak uh to that value system within the books and and really again what you’re asking military members to do kind of a kind of a out of a notion of trust and how we move forward from kind of removing these maladaptive coping mechanisms
well you know I think so from my experience I think that a lot of folks um when they’re using some sort of substance um they’re sometimes a genuineness of like I know this might not be the best way to handle this right but it feels good in the moment it’s my only solution sometimes you know maybe my five coping strategies didn’t work but I am trying this right now and it’s going to push things away and I think we talk about in the group or out in the group in the um book that um you know that a lot of times when we are using um those Sensations the pain whether it be physical social emotional pain they’re thereafter right they’re they’re still there and um you know this short-term solution if we understand that that’s still there then what are we trying to get at are we trying to lean in and satisfy something on the short term or are we trying to better understand how to you know get through day to day in a longer term basis so um you know sustainability is a big thing that I talk about with a lot of my clients of like what is sustainable and I think that’s the hard thing with using right so we know that over time when you start it start maybe starts with you know one beer and then it gets to wow this isn’t sustainable I have to increase I have to you know now I’m using at these different times of the day and this is I mean it’s not sustainable so these Solutions and these different strategies that we’re talking about are things that are sustainable that can last over time that can look different each time um and I think that’s kind of the the thing that I talk about with a lot of folks is like this isn’t um a you know remote control where we’re going up and down you’re increasing the frequency or this is something you can make variations of but in different environment situations people and that’s that’s the big thing is like how do we get that buy-in that this is something that um can be longer lasting and and healthier for the body because we want to be longer lasting right that’s I think genuinely where people come from you know I tell folks all the time we are built to heal none of us want to stay in this place of pain you know physical social emotional whatever pain you’re dealing with whatever so none of us want to deal with that so how do we heal from inside out and and the best way to do that is going through some of these strategies seeking support you know this we are very big in the book of like this isn’t going to be the cure-all like right please go see a provider go get treatment do these things that are also going to be way longer lasting um you know people are coming to the book probably at different places with their addiction and recovery so um but that’s that’s a huge part of sustainability and recognizing these short-term Solutions are you know kind of in the meantime right so one of one of the the images that just came in my head was uh Indiana Jones and he’s in that cave he’s grabbing that thing’s going to replace it really fast that nothing bad happened right and that’s kind of how I see this in a lot of ways that we’re not asking to do that we’re not asking you just replace and just go Um right uh there’s a level of we got to get out of that cave right then then we can kind of work our way back um but uh you know yeah I think uh we have to honor their pain we have to honor what they’re protecting we have to honor what is not working um and I think it’s more about changing our relationship with the skill before we can actually take it away um you know earlier I was talking about about military culture and back in back in the military culture alcohol things of that nature are celebrated um or used to kind of get through a hard event right whether you’re grieving or you’re celebrating getting back from a mission or you’re um not not necessarily overseas but when you’re coming back from like a training or right when you first get home um from from deployment you use substances in tandem with a feeling right and so I think there’s a level of we have to kind of change that relationship that we that we’re going to pair that substance with a feeling versus kind of separating them in some respects and so I think a lot of people when they for example when they first come to treatment we first have to kind of stabilize that person away from the substance and then we can get to the feeling right but we if we if we keep them in tandem right next to each other the whole time that’s going to be hard and so I think that um being able to do that’s a process it takes time um I remember telling a lot of my vets produce working at different va’s that we might spend 12 months talking about how the trauma impacted you where we actually talked about the trauma itself and that’s not to slight your experience it’s I want to honor the fact that I only get an hour with you and you got to go spend six days and 23 hours not with me and then you kind of come back right so I want to be able to make sure you can handle that before we can even start dipping our toe in that water so I think it’s a it’s it’s a way of honoring and understanding versus judging or expecting absolutely and uh I know we’re getting to the to the 12th hour of this discussion I mean just so many more bullet points I wish we had several hours we could discuss this and I know you got you know beautiful twin children sleeping in the background so hopefully we won’t be uh keeping you too much from them fingers crossed moving forward but you know kind of kind of to the 12th hour here in the last kind of component I just wanted to touch on for the viewers out there and for the viewers out there I mean this this book is filled with Solutions and positive questions and reinforcing statements about how to move through these processes and so though we don’t have time to dive into those they’re in the books so check it out but uh the the one thing I want to honor here is is the the um the acronym Ace which I believe stands for adverse child experience at childhood experiences and before coming to the question I’m thinking about the military member in the book who said um you know when I got into the military and I was getting yelled at it it was good for me and my experience was positive because I knew I wasn’t going to get hit like I did when I was a kid so in a way the military member is being met with sort of a you know an early childhood experience with their father but in that moment it’s positively serving them in the military because the takeaway is I can’t be harmed in this and it was productive for them but what I want to honor here around you know childhood experiences in post uh traumatic experiences painful experiences deaf grief you know death grief losses those types of things that can happen on either side of the military process just would love for you to speak to because I don’t think that’s all I think people take away all your traumatized because you’re in the military you know us civilians asking our lack of curious questions sometimes on the other side but there’s three sides of this right there’s before military during the military and after the military and Trauma and emotional pain physical can happen on all sides of that and just want to honor this kind of last aspect of the book before we take it out with the viewers and get your guys’s Collective thoughts on on on those principles yeah great I’m so happy you brought that up I mean we really worked hard here to try to give a full picture of you know veteran experiences and I think this is the the that’s you know towards the end of our book um and our biggest key principle here is the veteran we’re not in a bubble we’re not in a bubble you know you don’t just pop into the military and then plop out you know there’s experiences even in childhood that predisposition you your body to already have experienced stress and you know go through and I I think one of the metaphors that I just love in our book is the paper towel metaphor where it’s like you know your your paper towel is wet and it dries up and then you know it gets wet again and those are from different stressful experiences and I mean that’s we nerd out a little bit and talk about the spinal cord and anyways but we do it in a way I think that is digestible but um I think that’s that’s key right that understanding that trauma stress anxiety fill in the blank you know that can happen before and after the military you can experience a death or loss in the family that has nothing to do with your military experience but because you’ve gone through previous stressful experiences um it it’s hard I um I think one of the things that I have noticed working with veterans they ask me Carrie I don’t get how I got through all that but I’m not getting through this and that it feels so powerful to me and we talk about like hey this is not a bubble this is your life is a continuation it’s not like oh well there’s the file system just for you know your time in the military and now you start a new file it doesn’t work that way right or our body’s been through so much um and I think that’s a big part of why we really wanted to hone in on you know Aces and then different experiences that happen after the military um and you know I think one of the ones that is near and dear to our herd of course is you know death by suicide after um you know the military and losing um either fellow vets or even other people um around you family or friends I mean there are heavy heavy things that we all experience in our lives and they hit at different points um for different reasons and we have to understand that about ourselves and be tender about that of wow you know pre and post military there’s stuff we deal with right so absolutely yeah I think that also speaks to what we’re saying earlier around around the gear right and it’s not to say that the that a person that’s actually in the military can’t handle stressful events I think it’s much more of a the gear they had in the military helped them survive right but the gear that they’re trying to still use in the civilian world and loses its luster or it’s not as effective or you don’t have your group of 20 buddies around you they’ve been a process right off the bat right there’s ways that you being able to kind of this is actually an opportunity to get through it versus I I I couldn’t do it right I mean there’s a level of we have to kind of deconstruct that again um you’re absolutely right in talking about Aces and there’s definitely some research out there around the amount of Aces um that veterans experience and how that might correlate with how they experience trauma or how they um work through trauma or are resilient from trauma there’s plenty of veterans I know for example that uh we’re only deployed for one day and they really struggled when they came home and other veterans have been deployed 20 times and and they’re showing nothing right there’s not a good there’s not like a one-size-fits all here it’s very much a lot of components and factors that play into that um but I would say you know one one piece that I always feel near and dear to my heart is that a lot of the a lot of veterans that I know personally have experienced from before they entered the military and it actually just speaks to their character in a lot of ways and how that trauma they actually use that is I want to serve I want to help I want to protect and whether that’s because they were protected themselves whatever that is we go down that that whole done some other day but but there’s a lot of psychological meaning behind that and I think that um that again can be a great way to empower a person and change the narrative around their experience versus let their experience dictate their their outcome so I think I think that there’s again an opportunity there absolutely beautiful well I as I’ve you know shared like just so many components of this book it is it is truly a veteran’s guide to fighting pain and addiction and I think it is um you know when I first started reading and I just felt like okay this is a great guide to you know veterans and military service member and military families uh alike but I think this is also a very important book for the civilian uh civilians to pick up out there just to I think better understand how to communicate approach understand what military members are going through before during and after the military so I think it’s just a this is this is a solid recommendation to all the viewers out there just to pick it up give it a look how can we better support our military members it’s in the book you know how can military members better support themselves how can the family systems of military members better support each other it’s all in the book just wonderful Solutions and I wish we had more time to comb through it but time is what it is right and with that I would just love to you know for you guys to kind of help me take the viewers out you know how can they find you guys where can we find the book all those types of things um give it to them yeah so we have a website doctorsbrockberg.com um please feel free to check things out there but you can get our book um Amazon Barnes and Noble Target kind of anywhere um Hazelden publishing as well um yeah Dustin you have to bring it up a little closer um Hazelden publishing as well if you’re looking for like a larger order there are some discounts there that are available um we’re just so grateful to Hazelden and their support and all of this um as well as Simon and Schuster so uh yeah I would say those are the major ways uh and we do have a Facebook group and an Instagram as well so feel free to follow and like so yeah and and real quickly dust didn’t carry I just want to say um thank you for writing the book as somebody who grew up in a military environment military family um there were so many aspects of this in which I don’t know I could actually visually watch um my father’s Journey as he changed his gear out of his rucksack over decades really um just really learning how to um become more engaged and connected uh especially because he came from a military family and then there they came from military parents so there’s just generations of of of unpacking that I got to experience and it was just really great to see it in a book that laid it out very clearly that normalized it and that made I don’t know it finally felt like there was something that spoke directly to my experience even though I’m not a vet but as a family member from the outside watching uh it was just I’m just really grateful thanks Clinton yeah thank you so much and I think I think that response alone is one of the reasons why we wrote this book right just to have that connection with the material to be able to kind of personalize it make sense of it and I think that that’s the end of the day like right it’s less of a a problem and more about how do we find a solution right how do we find a way to change that gear and all we ask anyone that’s hearing this listening to this take a chance that’s it that’s all I want you to try to do um and if you can do that you’re already 20 feet in the door at that point it’s awesome absolutely uh yeah you know to to Clint’s Point as well too I mean just as a as a uh you know I’m I’m I think certainly I for lack of better we’re just kind of dumb to military culture it’s just it’s just not been a common experience in my family system I got a few members I got a few friends uh in that regard but uh wholeheartedly like this book resonated with me um I’m getting a little emotional here so I’m trying to hold it together so I don’t cry in front of all these all these clinicians here in front of me but uh it is impactful and it’s powerful and it reaches right into the heavy-ness of military culture the experiences around it um and I’m just filled with gratitude that it was written and that I was able to connect with you guys and and be a part of this book experience with you um and so uh and taking it out here in your covert Mission uh a veteran’s guide to fighting pain and addiction uh look it up buy it share it with all your friends do all the things it’s an extraordinary text and just grateful to be a part of this process um you know with that said my name is Brandon Burns chief executive officer here at uh Peaks recovery centers hosting this fantastic episode here finding Peaks today uh as is true with the brockbergs we got our own social media we got the Instagrams the tick tocks uh the Facebooks all the things find us out there uh folks and again finding Peaks at peaksrecovery.com that’s where we get a lot of our ideas and creativity around these episodes and also how people are finding us out there so bring us your thoughts ideas uh in that regard and if we can do more episodes in the future you know around military services veterans uh and so forth please please bring that to us because we would love to invite future discussions in on this very important topic so again thank you both so much Dustin and Kerry brockberg for writing this text and joining us today and for the viewers out there until next time thank you

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Episode 83Responding to a Loved One During a RelapseWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/JHM3NocEJIAListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, our team responds to a viewer’s feedback asking our team about “responding to a loved one during a relapse.” Jason brings his clinical mind to the discussion as Brandon addresses the left-brain reality of a fragile relapse situation. Chris brings to light his past experiences on how loving and supporting a loved one during a relapse can influence the efficacy of finding the track back to their recovery journey.

Talking Points1. Addressing a viewers letter 2. Boundaries during a relapse 3. Loving somebody in recovery 4. CRAFT definition and examples 5. Trauma is an “exposed” raw nerve 6. Importance of a recovery community 7. Setting appropriate boundaries in a calm mind Quotes

“There is not one person, and I want to be very clear with this, just having a lot of personal and professional experience. There is not one person beating themselves up worse than the person that is out there engaged in this maladaptivity, unfortunately. So I think the more compassion, the more assertive we can be with our values and boundaries with love; I think the person who is suffering can see clearly that they are valued and loved.”– Chris Burns – President and Founder

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 83 Transcripts

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Episode 82An Autonomous Recovery StoryWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/9Oc5alP545YListen NowDescriptionOn this episode, we have a special guest, Kevin Franciotti, LAC, a Denver-based ketamine psychotherapist and a licensed addiction and mental health counselor with over 15 years of experience in community health, harm reduction, and direct service work. He bravely tells his recovery story and explains the power behind integrating the intentional use of psychedelics within recovery alongside ongoing psychotherapy.

Talking Points1. Kevin’s story 2. Taking a different approach for himself – harm reduction 3. The power behind simply asking, “How are you doing?” 4. Kevin’s reverence towards natural-based medicines 5. The whole experience, opportunity, environment, and autonomy behind Ibogaine help. 6. Natural medicines need to be congruent with psychotherapy 7. Recovery with autonomy met with guidelines Quotes

”Ibogaine gave me a glimpse of what having had a spiritual awakening could look like if I continued to work the steps. And the spiritual awakening that I ultimately discovered was freedom from the obsession and compulsion to use. Perhaps that’s the weight. This weight being carried is this burden that no matter what I do, I am constantly stressed by using drugs. When I get through that, I can see the humility, what recovery looks like, and share that message of hope with somebody worse off. Ultimately that is why I became a practitioner. I committed myself to service to people like me, who have been wronged by mainstream treatment.”– Kevin Franciotti, LAC

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 82Transcriptseverybody welcome back to finding Peaks your favorite host is back I know you’ve been waiting for me I know you got your popcorn next to you because that’s what I tell you to do because I’m always bringing you good stuff on the other side of the screen Brandon Burns chief executive officer for Peaks Recovery Center is joined today but with Lauren atencio the co-host uh licensed addiction counselor Clinical Director of our men’s campus at Peaks recovery centers going to help me out today to have a great conversation with our friend Kevin here and as you all know we put out several really this has been a kind of a prop 122 month here in the state of Colorado to talk about the Psychedelic measure or the measures within the bill wrapped around psychedelics and and namely psychedelic interventions within treatment episodes and so forth and so we brought you a lot of information and Kevin’s going to help us kind of walk through some more details of it including his personal Journey so excited to bring him on uh Kevin uh franchiati licensed addiction counselor hopefully I stated the Italian name correctly there you are also welcome to restate that but as a Denver based ketamine assisted psychotherapist in addiction and mental health counselor with over 15 years experience in Community Mental Health harm reduction and direct service work he was an invite on an Advisory Board member for project new days inaugural Community engaged public health project good on the Scrabble board psychedelics and Recovery Outreach and service which provided support for Mutual Aid groups whose members integrate psychedelic experiences in their addiction recovery with that Kevin welcome to the show sir awesome to be here yeah the bio is just as hard as pronouncing the last name so I was impressed by both yeah you did great thank you yeah yeah well welcome um you know I know we’ve talked uh of course you know prior to this and kind of where we want to take this as a as a journey and uh you know for the viewers out there as I just stated you know there’s a personal history model to this and I would just love to start by kind of just building up what that background was like you know that led to Addiction in the first place and will negotiate just kind of from there and along the way sure yeah no thanks so much for being here it’s a delight and in terms of the context of proposition 122 the natural medicine Health act uh you know I decided a few weeks ago when I wrote uh an op-ed in support with my endorsement for the Colorado Sun that I was going to tell my story and that’s not always a comfortable thing so I’m really honored to have the venue to further elaborate on some of that and qualify the reasons for my support that are largely formed by my lived experience so you know to kind of roll the tape back a couple decades as a teenager growing up in Suburban Long Island being pretty bored with Suburbia at an age where we’re looking for stuff to do my friends are experimenting I was a little slow to the game but eventually I got there and in a span of eight years from experimenting casually with things for a variety of reasons wound up finding myself with an opiate use disorder and dropped out from college having some experiences being bailed out of trouble thanks to some privileges and resources that my families and eyes disposal but addiction doesn’t really care about things like that and so it came back with a vengeance and I relapsed after a 30-day stint in an inpatient facility where I was introduced to 12-step recovery the abstinence-based model I really wanted nothing to do with it at the time and yet 10 months into another addictive spiral I figured that I should probably try AI to learn and grow and not be a mess anymore but I didn’t know how to stop and it took really a loving moment with my mother who came in and asked me what was wrong you know she didn’t say you need to do this she wasn’t yelling at me he’s just in a loving way what could we do to help and I told her that I’ve long known about this medicine called ibogaine ibogaine which is derived from the root bark of the iboga shrub which is indigenous to Western equatorial Africa and it’s been known to have remarkable affinity and efficacy for attenuating opiate withdrawal and serve as kind of an addiction interrupter so in that moment of a loving intervention in a far less charged way that that term is often used I decided that I need help I’m going to ask for it and I’m going to say this is the thing that I think might actually do it for me and in 2011 that’s exactly what I did I appreciate the vulnerability in these stories I think there is a sense of Courage within the politicism of you know things like prop 122 and so forth and you know just to kind of just take a moment to really just honor that with you that and taking this journey with us taking a couple steps back you know one of the things we for the viewers out there that I often talk about are the problems with our industry as a behavioral health industry in general and I would like to you know kind of go well I think before you know engaging in the the that negative potential you know we talked before the episode I think one thing for the viewers when we think about prop 122 is like or there’s just more drugs in the market it’s just a more drug issue what about the kids what about all the issues that follow from that and uh you know addiction at least for us at Peaks recovery centers isn’t it’s not about the drugs and we’ve talked a ton about this in the background that at the end of the day it’s almost like in gabber you know mate terms that the drugs almost work right and so instead of asking why the drugs we’re asking like why the pain right and I you know I hear within that kind of an adolescent exploratory period and that sort of thing but oftentimes you know as we know in uh at least at Peaks recovery centers in within the literature of opioids people described as a warm blanket I mean it’s a common warming comforting effect other folks have talked about it as a kind of a warm bath getting into the first time and I think that resonates is you know for me as somebody who’s never touched opioids as like wow wow that experience has to be really powerful right and stepping into that warm tub each time because who doesn’t love a warm tub especially on a cold snowy day here in Colorado and that way so you know kind of looking back you know and readdressing why the pain yeah and that’s something I kind of had to have my grappling with when I read Gabriel mates in the realm of hungry ghosts because I was reading about these you know kind of the worst of the worst cases people grew up with unbelievable tragedy unbelievable stories of of just trauma and and abuse and neglect and you know that really wasn’t present for me in my childhood so it was helping me understand the lens of addiction through a harm reduction light and through recognizing that any positive change ought to be celebrated because we don’t really know the the pain underneath the stories of our worst cases sadly but for me uh you know I was a product of the Dare generation and you know to your point of um being very curious like what would it take for someone’s life to spiral out of control not because of what happened to them but because of the misguided ways they were seeking relief and comfort from that and nobody taught me that you know I got to see the cool show Intel box from the cop who did the Dare presentation that was the only thing I really remembered aside from wondering if cocaine is so bad why do people do it but nobody taught me how to uh make sure that my drugs were unadulterated with anything more dangerous nobody told me that when I came around to asking somebody for cocaine I’ll ask him to buy cocaine they were gonna give me cocaine you know I didn’t know whether that was going to be a bag of powder containing anything but to answer your question um yeah as a as a sort of rebellious Coming of Age adolescence adolescent interested in experimenting having a coalesce at a time where I was out and about doing something dumb with my friends on a snowy day pissed somebody off pissed the wrong person off and he got out of his car and jumped me and he beat me up I was held down and I got my tooth knocked out as a result of that and so it acknowledging the trauma of that moment that assault and essentially what also came after it because something happened to me that ought to be addressed and I don’t know the person’s name I barely remember what he looks like but there’s got to be a way to investigate this not so much yeah so the police really did not take much of an interest they showed me a lineup of people that I could recognize in my high school yearbook who nobody looked like that so you know years later when I’m reading gabromate and I’m wondering like is this really my index trauma it also brought to mind other things other pains that I lost like my grandparents the death of my grandmother at an old age who spent the last year of her life like really miserable because of a botched procedure at an ICU so for me you know there wasn’t any explicit abuse but there was an inability to process significant pain and at a time where I was shifting into adulthood and failing to reach the Milestones that I had sought and that I thought I had been capable of drugs were a part of my story but they weren’t the thing really ruining everything yet until the pain became too great and opiates did serve as that warm blanket for me and I became addicted to them I appreciate you uh cataloging that with us and walking us through that journey and I fully appreciate the insights and the awareness too to read a text like that and be like okay how do I couch that into my own life and bring that forward I think that’s a powerful feature sometimes you know Lauren you know I’ve you know when it’s like uh Dr yollen is a gift of therapy people fire off the quotes and they just give me quotes and then I read the book and I’m like did they read the book or did they just give me the quotes and that feels like somebody who’s actually experiencing you know living the book and thinking thoughtfully about it so I appreciate that and and back to the disruptive feature of our you know industry uh a variety of different things we’ve talked about like medications uh where they work and where they don’t work why they work why they don’t work or why we don’t understand why they work you know restrictive features of inpatient facilities part of our curriculum modeling right now that we’re talking about as well too but you know so you get to a point you know resourced family and this direction becomes like inpatient programming I think there’s a little bit two more there’s some uh you know some uh history with the police and things that might be taking place at the time that gets there but in our prior discussion coercion is the experience right to have to go through all these things yes I did these things I recognized I did that but I don’t know if this is the path that’s necessary and it sounds like for you that creates not only ambivalence but maybe even just a rejection of like the experience that’s moving uh in that direction and you know before Kevin dives into that part of the journey you know just for the viewers out there you know sometimes individuals arrive at treatment settings you know Mom drops them off but you know uh Luggage in hand and so forth and they’re so resistant and we spend and can spend as an industry you know 15 30 45 days just unwinding that as an experience missing opportunities to really treat people in the way that our curriculum is intending to in that regard and so because I’m all for kind of blowing up the ship and then putting it all back together you know please walk us through some of those that experience for you happy to blow up that ship because I literally was bailed out of County Jail brought to the Long Island drug and alcohol abuse research Resource Center sat in front of a lovely woman who was doing her best to keep my parents calm but she Rec ended a couple of places and the next thing I know I’m whisked away off to that no autonomy no say I mean did I have a right at that time was I pissing people off in my life who am I to be entitled for that but is that really the pretext to an engagement in therapeutic care that we want the treatment center that I did go to out in Long Island was essentially a place where I could get drugs and I met the people that I could get drugs from because I was not interested in abstinence at the time yes I’m not saying that to brag I’m not saying that that’s what I deserve to be doing I’m just saying that was my mindset so why would I be at a place where I’m supposed to be in a controlled environment and yet my main interest is in hooking up with the other people who aren’t taking this seriously and can help me get some stuff so after a few days I left and and I came back home had a challenging moment you can imagine with my parents to try to advocate for myself in a healthy way but still as an healthy person yet again like what other medical condition would require that somebody who is being treated poorly through the treatment model offered him and yet is still struggling with his own pathology has to become his own Advocate I mean any any family member of a loved one with cancer or a complex diagnosis that argues with insurance companies about coverage knows what I’m talking about that’s essentially what happens in addiction and so you know when I did go to a place that I had more of a say in I chose a a rehab that was in a more secluded environment in Upstate New York it was a nicer campus a little more laid back but I didn’t really know what I was doing so during my intake process I got all the same kind of scare scare tactics oh this is how many drugs you’ve been doing and you’re only in your mid-20s you’re going to be dead by 30. like who sets you up for success by by giving you that Doom and Gloom mentality and the whole notion of sitting in a room with 40 people and the facilitator says you know look to your left look to your right one of them is going to be in jail the other one’s going to be dead are you going to be clean or back here again these Scare Tactics things do not work so a year later after leaving an environment like that relapsing within weeks knowing I’m bottoming out again why would I just want to go back to that knowing that my parents spent like tens of thousands of dollars on that experience and I’m going to ask them to buy more no I need a different approach and that’s kind of what this measure is allowing us to do that’s what my path and my story led to and so even as a practitioner today as a licensed addiction counselor I feel like I predominantly work as a systemic harm reduction provider like I need to educate parents educate clients educate people on the devastating void left by ineffective treatment interventions that people like me are trying to carry the weight for absolutely beautifully stated and I think the word that comes up for us at Peaks a lot and what we’re really trying to engage with out of proposition 122 is namely Innovation we are stuck in a variety of ways as an industry couched in some of those kind of horrible ways of approaching patient care look to the left look to the right type behavior and this is an opportunity to take something at least for us right something like a 90-day you know let’s just to you know do a quick couching in terms of like a major depressive disorder where cognitive behavioral therapy as an evidence-based approach can take 90 days to punch through that rumination right for the individual and these plant-based medicines might give us the I don’t say might I’m going to say strongly that they will give us the opportunity to kind of punch through the ego whatever it is that we want to couch the terms in in a much faster way you know we know somebody close to us who recently did a plant-based medicine kind of two three day Retreat and came back and said I just did 10 years of therapy in two days I mean that’s the type of power we’re talking about with something like this it has a ton of edges to put around it and we can negotiate that here in the next episode we’re about to be a part of but with that Innovation is the reality for this industry and the reality for psycho therapy and it gives a great deal of power back to the entire industry itself and not necessarily going to be at the level of just you know psychiatrists and doctors holding on to these as opportunities it informs equity and access to care in that way of things so before I continue with all the thoughts ideas I have how you feeling Lauren yeah so Brandon told me to bring my clinical brain today so that’s what I’ve been doing the whole time you’ve been talking um so I guess my curiosity comes around to like you mentioned um the love you felt from your mother when you asked about the different treatment modality I’m cute like I’m curious for our viewers like what did she give you in that moment that was so powerful for you to feel empowered to go get the help you felt you needed right yeah I mean it’s sort of one of those moments where you don’t really it’s like I was having an out-of-body experience like I I knew what I wanted to say that of course I’ve wanted to say this before right but in a moment of resistance in a moment of you know I have something in my pocket that I just need to get through this conversation and run to the bathroom to use you know I was also like I said bottomed out so I was broken desperate scared and alone yeah you know what is does an animal do when they’re broken desperate scared or alone sometimes they lash out at their caregivers sometimes they recoil sometimes they run off to a corner to lick their wounds we’re humans we’re animals so we have many of the same Tendencies and a lot of times in a moment like that people don’t understand that those complexities are Paramount so when my mom came into my room she just sat down at the foot of the bed I am to this day unaware of what her agenda was what she knew what she didn’t know what she was afraid of and all she just said was you know I don’t think you’ve left your bed in three days and I did I just waited until they were asleep to go out and score but me knowing that she’s doing her best to be calm centered loving and really unconditional she was just asking me not saying you know I’ve got somebody outside waiting are you going to go or are you going to continue to fight right it was what could we do and that was all it took for the words to actually make their way out of my mouth and say I need help I don’t don’t know what to do and I want to try ibogaine yeah I just think it’s so powerful and I I we talked a little bit right before of like individualized care and how everybody needs something different and I think due to the stigma due to the way treatment centers work all of these different things you know the idea of disrupting the industry is sometimes just asking someone how they are because nobody I can imagine in your two treatments since actually sat down and asked how you were and so I just I really wanted to kind of emphasize that because I can imagine it gave you a lot more empowerment to go do it and really be intentional about it yeah yeah I mean having my family on my side was crucial and not only for like a reinforcement of my internal willingness but also for some accountability right like I was still you know a mess even after detoxing I’m still two days off of heroin and having a powerfully transformative psychedelic experience trying to make sense of what had all just been happening to me so you know I had my moments of in decision and doubt and a desire to not follow through with some of the commitments that I made but again in a loving way you know my parents gave me some feedback that was a little critical and surprised believe it or not and and you know what it changed my mind um and so it didn’t fix everything for me but it allowed me to have a moment of peace and safety in an otherwise criminalized context like the the the elephant in the room with any conversation about how do we innovate how do we disrupt the addiction treatment industry we can’t effectively and as long as drug prohibition continues to persist it colors everything it pins families against each other it pins moms against the state in arguments to get and we have this whole context that if you’re gonna criminalize the symptoms of a disease why are we even bothering calling it a disease yeah absolutely yeah beautifully stated yeah we’ll love that I love the delivery of that uh you know and and as we talked about on the beginning of this show and you know to the viewers out there I’ve said it in the past in a way around prop position 122. uh we are trying to open the hearts and the minds of individuals out there who might be on the fence or just a wholehearted no to this and uh I’m curious Kevin how you know you know around the Iowa game experience how you would like the audience um how you want them to to see your experience in a way that can possibly open up their hearts and Minds to it you know in that regard and what what what do you want them to know about what that is the reverence for the medications all of these sort of things that um they’re they might not be aware of in this moment that you want them to hear sure I mean as is often the case with someone like me who has Family Resources had their support to travel outside of the country to a pretty expensive short-term intervention that required a tremendous leap of faith um it’s it’s going to be the folks that have not responded to traditional means and I really hate that that’s the current case why should we make somebody go through three four five six failed attempts at a treatment episode from a more mainstream way spending how many Untold dollars and time meanwhile all while risking death risking participation in an illicit Market with an adulterated drug Supply and a legal backdrop that in some states still won’t even Empower people to test the drugs that they’re using to see whether they know what’s in it so what I admire about Peaks and this idea about disrupting the industry is that you know we’re talking about multiple layers of destruct disruption here right so as a practitioner as somebody with lived experience I’m both interested in disrupting that mainstream addiction treatment mentality and the criminalized mentality and I think proposition 122 does an excellent job at both you know right now we have a scenario whereby there is credible albeit limited research largely because of the restrictions of the war on drugs and many of these compounds existing in schedule one which for your listeners that I’m not as familiar with all the legal complications schedule one is a designation is a political designation manufactured by The Drug Enforcement Administration it has no bearing on science it is not a credible credible construct but as a result they’ve essentially handicapped the FDA and various ways of going through legitimate channels to develop these drugs no no pharmaceutical company really wants to touch them because they’re a hot item a contentious issue in the discourse some of them have difficult patent strategies and all that business stuff that you know much more about than I do but ultimately the the current situation of mental health treatment is on the one hand operating business as usual failing to recognize poor outcomes failing to have achieved any amount of innovation in the past couple of decades we have a promising tool that we’ve actually known about for a long time ibogaine’s anti-addictive potential was discovered in 1962. medicines like psilocybin and magic mushrooms or LSD were being investigated in the 50s and 60s for alcohol use disorder among other indications so the research has struggled to gain momentum because of the regulatory restrictions not because the science wasn’t promising and God only knows what we could have accomplished in the three quarters of a century of these medicines not having been demonized so we’re long overdue for a new approach this is not a a outside the box revolutionary idea that has had no bearing in reality that a couple of hippies brewed up in some kind of concoction this is a real thing that will benefit real people and like myself I have become an advocate for service to people who don’t necessarily have the resources to fly to Mexico and do and and talk openly like this without fear of consequences which is a real thing too so I implore people to really um be open-minded about prop 122 be open-minded about the fact that we have passionate people knowledgeable people trained people interested in making sure this is a successful initiative that’s going to require a tremendous amount of Education and Training and supportive resources from the community so whether or not you vote in favor of prop 122 if it does pass we still want that person to have a seat at the table we want to engage with those concerns and we want to see how we can work to mitigate that stuff and implementation yeah absolutely beautifully stated that’s why we have these guests because you know me I’ll have a tangent at work and then people like I think he said something I’m not clear as to what his Direction was and you’re just so thoughtful and uh and it’s just so intact as a discussion so I appreciate uh just having words of wisdom around the proposition and the personal experiences you know from A open heart open mind mentality so that the viewers can reel through that uh of course you know I got more tangents Lauren you wanna you wanna bring something up some on top of mind right now yeah I before you went into that you talked about the idea of a fix and I think it would be important to kind of reiterate that it’s not necessarily a fix but instead kind of a Gateway or how would you kind of describe that right I mean in my personal experience which is the only thing I’ll comment on in regards to that you know I like this idea about 10 years of therapy in one night what’s what I find very interesting about that description is man I would hate to learn what that therapy was like yeah if 10 years didn’t do anything and you’re comparing what you received from a medicine on on that I have that experience as well that you know nothing that I could get out of therapy was going to provide a direct experience that I had on ibogaine so I essentially sought ibogaine as a detox intervention you know at this traditional 12-step abstinence-based model rehab nobody really talked up drug replacement therapy right nobody talked up methadone buprenorphine weird it’s the only thing that cuts mortality rates in half for opiate users but nobody really shared that information with me instead they made me feel like I was going to replace one drug for another right I had I had people who I could identify with as speakers come and tell me don’t go to Narcotics Anonymous go to alcoholics and all like what why would I need to be figuring any of this stuff out but ultimately when I saw it ibogaine understandably with the context of needing to detox ibogaine has an incredible somewhat miraculous ability to relieve the symptoms of detox so as an addiction interrupter you know I was removed from my environment I was placed in a situation where if I ran away where would I score so I was committed I had surrendered I had this backdrop of accountability as a result of some of the legal implications of really getting with the program so for my story it’s not just one thing necessarily that made everything work yeah but I was nonetheless remaining completely resistant to any of it without having the direct experience that I began provided me because I was broken miserable and isolated ibogaine came in in what might have been a faint spark that still existed in the spirit of my life and just threw gasoline on it and erupted this life force of energy where I spent all night engaging with all of the sorts of thoughts and ideas and Fantasies and imaginations and memories and connecting with relationships that I had been losing by engaging in self-destructive Behavior what kind of detox treatment who comes is that a detox talking like that yeah that is the greatest biopsychology document ever right there right it’s like you’re lucky if you get out of detox with the when and the nurse didn’t curse you out and and make you feel like you were Unworthy of even taking up that bed yeah and and to experience the polar opposite of that um it provided a opportunity for me to engage in a new way of life that nothing really was enabling me to do previously because it was self-driven and self-motivated and as a result of a self-awakening I then became engaged with the hard work the program being offered to me still was a 12-step model of recovery I decided to embrace it you know I’m a College Dropout I’m unemployable uh what’s the worst that’s seven months in South Florida hanging out in an AAA Clubhouse is going to really do for my circumstances for some people quite a lot of bad things happen for me with the mindset that I had I knew that if I surrendered dedicated and committed to the program that good things would come my way and that eventually I would be able to help people at a certain point I found that I couldn’t share about my experience with psychedelics in in the rooms you know you’re making small talk in South Florida I have social anxiety like I don’t know anybody what do people ask down there what’s your drug of choice what rehab did you go to what detox did you just come from I would say Mexico Mexico that’s different what was there I began I began what’s that and it was just the series of disappointing follow-up questions until I was essentially treated like I thought of myself you know would you ask what a cancer patient what formulation of chemotherapy that they did I want to try that I was basically getting feedback like I’d love to try ibogaine I was like yeah that was a really devastating moment in my life so I started to censor that part of my story and um it was a very impactful thing for me that eventually years later led me to a wonderful Fellowship of people that we’ve been helping assemble over the past few years that like me have found and embraced integrating intentional use of psychedelics and their ongoing 12-step informed recovery program that recognizes the inherent controversies with engaging with a mood or mind-altering medicine but also acknowledges that the intentions that people come into these experiences are a lot different than the self-destructive intentions that they had engaging in addictive drug use yeah it’s beautiful for me it reminds me of the book I recently read too along this journey how to change the mind and within it describes Bill Wilson’s Journey uh our and his insights into psychedelics and what he thought the power was on behalf of the 12-step model now of course to be clear and true to the you know 12 steppers out there and the fellowship and all of it that exists I recognize his spontaneous moment in the hotel and Ohio and all of that sort of stuff I’m taking that for what it is that’s his real genuine experience in that moment but 15 years later he’s writing letters back and forth between psychiatrists and stuff and the reason he’s engaging in psychedelic conversations at all is because those first three steps powerlessness find higher power you know and and and through that he recognized or at least it in the experience of reading some of the letters right that hey if individuals could just get this we’d be off to the races with the rest of the steps because this is the hang up for individuals within that and for me you know like what you just described from a coercive event right the animal nature of us wants to run hide or shut down or lash out those types of things from a course event it has no weight why would you show up to the treatment center with any sort of like I’m ready to go right and in this other regard you get to go experience something it was largely out of a detox episode I think that’s really neat to think about because it wasn’t like I’m gonna have this experience where I’m just gonna be like Blown Away have all the this weight and then move into all these things in my life but it gave you that and I think it’s one of the very powerful experiences from these plant-based medicines in general where individuals at least in the research that I’ve read or you know even in how to change the mind and the research that’s brought forward in that there’s something about the shift in weight the seriousness that comes on the other side of it and then the exploratory features namely out of autonomy for how to get well after that and that sounds I mean largely kind of just what you went through am I off a little bit there or no I mean my story Bears a lot of parallels to what Bill Wilson was attempting to advocate for and you have to remember the context that Alcoholics Anonymous was established in right this is we’re talking the early 20th century uh doc the best doctors of the world of America didn’t really know what to do with alcoholics anymore the the real so-called real alcoholic that that the big book outlines in the chapter more about alcoholism those are the types of folks that they were trying to reach not not not people that maybe had a few Benders every now and then maybe they lost the job or two maybe their marriage was on the Rocks these were people with devastatingly low bottoms that Alcoholics Anonymous sprung up to attempt to respond to based on Bill Wilson’s own personal experience so you know what happened at towns Hospital there’s often a lot of debate around whether he was given the Belladonna treatment Belladonna being this Delirious that has psychedelic-like effects and I don’t I don’t really a I’m not really interested in interrogating that what I’m interested in is how years later when he was suffering from depression and he received illegal LSD treatment because LSD hadn’t been banned at the time essentially experienced both relief from his depression and the realization that what he had been experiencing was very similar to whatever happened at towns hospital that initially led to his white light encounter that he describes in the big book so the enthusiasm of coming in to working with those bottomed out alcoholics that A.A was attempting to reach knowing all of those complicated factors about what the hell do I care about helping somebody that’s step 12 I’m I’m miserable I can’t stop using my liver is like on there I’m about to die what do I care about making amends to all the people that I’ve harmed before what do I care about taking a daily moral inventory but you know when you do surrender when you do engage in those first few steps and work the rest with a sponsor you start to see the light right but if you can’t see that from the outset exactly what I was struggling with ibogaine provided me with a glimpse of having had a spiritual awakening could look like if I continued to work the steps and the spiritual awakening that I ultimately discovered was a freedom from the obsession and compulsion to use perhaps that’s the weight that we’re talking about yeah weight being carried is this burden that no matter what I do I’m constantly stressed with obsessing and compulsively using medicines drugs behaviors gambling whatever it is when I can get through that I can see the humility I can see what recovery looks like and sharing that message of Hope to somebody who’s worse off because ultimately why I became a practitioner was to commit myself to service to people that like me have kind of been wronged by the mainstream treatment models so it’s um what psychedelics represent and what part of my work with ketamine-assisted Psychotherapy in my practice acknowledges that individuals have an inner healing capacity just like the body can heal itself from wounds and you go to a hospital to have your bones set or abandoned wrapped around an abrasion the body does the rest of the work if it’s cleaned and properly addressed just like that the mind in a certain container can allow for healing potential to happen even in some of our most complicated conditions psychedelics things like ketamine things like ibogaine puts people in touch with that inner healing capacity which is exactly what I experienced yeah love it clinical insights what are you feeling yeah I I don’t know this is just really cool like I’m so glad that you’re here to kind of walk us through this because I think you know just abstinence as a whole in substance use treatment is so pushed on everybody but I think this opens up that light but I I want to go back again to like to this idea that I you are saying like as much as you’re doing this psychedelic treatment that there also needs to be additional therapy with that and I think the reason I go back to that is because the mutual person that Brandon and I know who recently kind of walked through her own psychedelic experience um shared a little bit of like I thought it was going to be fixed and all my old patterns and behaviors are coming back and I feel discouraged and all of these different things you know and so I think the importance of therapy is emphasized in that critically I mean the not a Panacea right not at all and I’m like that’s why I like drawing the analogy to my ibogaine treatment essentially functioning as a detox yeah it was so much more than that as the understanding of what detox is the spin Drive mentality right um so knowing all the mindset that I came into it with that I did also have an expectation of being fixed right I was like I was still detoxing I was still in withdrawal so I had this wonderful experience I felt Euphoria during a time where I should have been in agony and yet you know when the effects of the medicine wear off I was I was still feeling some stuff I was also flushed with guilt and remorse and shame for all of the things that I had been putting the loved ones around me including myself through and the toll how do you contain that you know you can’t expect a weekend medicine Retreat to do this this is why prop 122 is so important because we’re talking about a service delivery model we’re talking about doing this in a controlled setting with trained providers that can connect people who might have uh this regulating experiences as a result of what they’re coming in with for a lot of people they have they have lofty glowing euphoric reinforcing ego softening experiences and that’s great for for for many others there will be more work that gets revealed a lot of as we know intractable neuroses and other types of debilitating mood disorders are essentially imperfect strategies for people to block access to their pain block access to what it really is underriding their symptomatology so you know we work with ssris to try to mitigate symptoms to make sure people still have an appetite and still can catch a few hours of sleep so that they can go to work and take their kids to sport practice that’s just maintaining a equilibrium enough for them to function these medicines really try to provide someone the ability to access what’s going on underneath their issues and that needs to be held with therapy that needs to be engaged in a process and if I hope somebody allows their psychedelic journey to serve as the backdrop for 10 years of therapy that’s going to be 10 years of quality therapy and not the other side of that comparison yeah yeah absolutely I you know one of the things I’m like boiling in my thought but I’ll hear about it I am we talked about it in the curriculum you know meeting a little bit this past week Lauren or I brought it up hopefully the room got what I was putting down but you know you you break your arm right and you go into the emergency room the costs are fixed there’s generally a timeline for it this MD is going to treat it the same way this MD do MD and so forth right you know with slight variations maybe on the movement of the scalpel right but at the end of the day there’s a Common Thread for how to do that our industry has hey we can fix that broken arm we can fix the behavioral issues that are going on but we have a pretty particular philosophy about how to do that right it would be like as insane as walking in the emergency room and the guy you know the doctor’s saying look I’m going to fix this we’re going to go under the knife but when you wake up it’s not going to be in a cast because I don’t believe in casts no you’re just gonna have to sit really still but I promise this will actually heal better than without the cash trust me you know like you’re going all that sort of thing and so absurdities aside you know it it’s these individualized philosophies within care that become so restrictive right and so um and and create that coercion mechanism that I think is off-putting for a lot of individuals who participate in treatment episodes right what is it like for somebody to come into Peaks and instead of us just being like hey this is our philosophy and this is what you have to do like these are the things we’re doing how can we make this the most beneficial experience for that it’s still has restrictive features in it but it’s less restrictive than a full-blown philosophy at the same time if we had something like the advantages that will come out of proposition 122 to give that intervention on the front end you know post detox it’s got to be appropriate of course like all of these things are going to be set up to engage with this thoughtfully on the other side of that what about these aspects of our care do you really want to engage in or you know what is the next step if not these levels of care you know out there in the world that we can connect you with that’s going to make this meaningful and reinforce reinforce that autonomy approach to care so it’s more of a tangent more of a little brand I don’t know if that no I mean I think that’s a lot of people are concerned with the fact that prop 122 is emphasizing the creation of a non-medicalized model what people need to understand is that does not mean there won’t be trained medical professionals involved in that Service delivery but when you say non-medicalized model it means that hey maybe I’m not going to have to sit across a doctor at a rehab who tells me I have nine years left to live because of the way I’m using drugs right because that that’s his biased outlook on you know the dozens of people that he’s done intakes for hundreds of people over the years and probably for him pretty burnt out seeing people die and not knowing what to do anymore so when we think of the system having a non-medical system that doesn’t require people to come in with a specific diagnosis we’re not coming in with an agenda about how to steer people towards the direction of their own healing we’re allowing the individual autonomy the support that they have access to in their Community Resources their spiritual groups their peer support groups their family their employers suddenly people don’t have to be operating in darkness by saying yeah I had an Ayahuasca Retreat on my last summer vacation like what do you do for vacation Steve uh you know I packed up the kids and we went like this is we’re normalizing a conversation and we’re in in we’re baking it into our existing structures so you know when when Peaks talks about disruption in a way of innovation so much of addiction treatment so much of mental health treatment is a disruption to somebody’s life you know what do we do when somebody expresses serious suicidality well as as we do as providers we do an assessment of risk well if they say this in a school if they say this in a setting where they don’t really have the time and attention to provide that suddenly that person is getting hauled off to the hospital for a 72-hour hold how disruptive is that how much access to supportive resources is that is that just covering your ass to make sure this person doesn’t walk out of your office and hurt themselves and then you’re the one putting the bill for it so when we need to understand the complexity it’s a little bit of like insiders baseball here to know as providers the limitations of the system but take it from people who are working in mainstream systems that some aspects of the system are broken so if we’re advocating for a different strategy that doesn’t exist in there but can be added on to traditional forms of treatment in addition to Community Resources there’s reasons for that because we understand some of the limitations what would I think a Doctor Who’s really committed to the coercive strategy that they’ve been invested in throughout their career suddenly having access to a psychedelic medicine are they going to suddenly change their minds and have their own opened up approach to working with people in an individualized framework or are they going to seize upon psychedelics as further tools to help coerce people into a model that maybe they’re not interested in very complicated yeah absolutely and with that we are arriving at the end of this episode we’re going to be hanging out with some doctors next uh who are going to give us more feedback on uh the proper uh prop 122 movement uh as well as we’ll get more into some of the common psychedelic medications that exist today already ketamine infusion um and so forth are ketamine intervention models in that way of things uh so we’ll get right back to it but um for the sake of this episode as I stated from the beginning throw the viewers and the camera in front of you kind of how how do they reach out to you if they want to receive you know your private practice Services ketamine infusion Based Services uh all of that stuff hit them yeah absolutely I have a private practice based in Littleton um I do ketamine assisted therapy I accept Medicaid reimbursement I work with young adults adults Elder adults with substance use behavioral conditions mood disorders trauma I work with family these that have loved ones that are struggling as a consultant or a coach for clinicians out there I do supervision I assist with training with skylight psychedelics as well as group therapy and I do Telehealth as well so you can find me at Kevin franciotti counseling Kevin f-r-a-n-c-i-o-t-t-i counseling.com or on my psychology today profile and yeah I look forward to hearing from you beautiful well as I always say hanging out with the clinical people this is literally all things clinical Lauren thank you so much for being here Kevin an absolute pleasure to have you uh here with us as well too and uh to all the viewers out there again uh thanks for joining us I know you’re done with your popcorn ready to get back to the kitchen get some yummy in your tummy after listening to this episode and with that um while you’re going back to the kitchen check us out on the tick tocks the the twitters the Facebooks all of the social media things out there uh like us follow us all those things means the world to us to continue these messages forward uh for anybody has questions thoughts ideas feedback for this episode finding Peaks at peaksrecovery.com that’s how we’re engaging in these episodes following your direction at the end of the day again I’m Brandon Burns chief executive officer for Peaks recovery centers and until next time it’s good being with yo

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Episode 81Behind the Care: Crisis Case ManagementWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/prlZmOvOP34Listen NowDescriptionOn this episode, we have a special guest, Ryan Roy, the President of CCM, Crisis Case Management. CCM, Founded in 2000, is a highly recognized complex behavioral consultancy whose behavioral health specialists have helped families and institutions navigate out of crisis and into long-term wellness. He dives into the experience, compassion, and coordination of CCM’s team and how they empower their client’s unique needs and provide them with the direction and referrals they need.

Talking Points1. What is CCM? 2. The first conversation and approach needed 3. Maintaining the team 4. The hardships seen in the behavioral industry 5. What does a mental health treatment center look like 6. Roadblocks CCM runs into 7. Boundaries Quotes

”I really see your services in this dichotomous sense, as really community based, to be able to point at these institutions that are appropriate for the care and to have those private pay dollars come in to actually give the family all the of the community resources that are potentially in front of them, which is really powerful. ”-Brandon Burns, CEO Peaks Recovery Centers

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 81 Transcriptswelcome back to another special episode of Finding Peaks I am your hostess with the mostest Brandon Burns chief executive officer for Peaks recovery centers bringing it live at five so to speak I think that’s what the kids say in the cliche world it’s not five anywhere during this time but just to have fun with you guys grab your popcorn and your soda especially you the family systems out there because we got a very special guest on today uh but before we introduce our guests as always co-host here today Clinton Nicholson LPC Lac all the clinical things as the kids know back at home uh in that regard and then we’re joined today by uh Ryan Roy with crisis case management president I should say as a title in that regard welcome to the show sir so grateful to have you and thanks for being with us just to kick start this of course you know we met you just a short month ago or so and um our business development rep apparently was dropping her kid off at a Kung Fu class or something and then saw your guys assign and here we are today talking on an episode and you know just greatly inspired by what we’ve been able to learn from you guys and what you’re doing out there not just in the communities around the United States but globally and uh so you know to kick this off let’s let everybody know at home kind of um you know who you are how you got to you know crisis case management and you know the philosophy behind the company that you work for federal health consultants which is just a bunch of fancy words for saying that we work within the behavioral health space uh we do a tremendous amount of really heavy and really complex psychiatric work crisis work uh High Acuity complex family systems High death risk legal issues hospitals hospitalizations profound mood and thought disorders substance abuse issues and that’s really the the start or some of the the places that we start working with what we think is the most significant player in all of this work which is the family system something that you mentioned before and that work continues from a institutional standpoint and from our team or teams um well into recovery or Wellness as we continue to manage the the Continuum of Care from what we like to call pre-contemplation where a family system or a spouse or a child or a business partner is contemplative about change or contemplative about systemic change guiding them from pre-contemplation through an intervention through treatment placements reintegration back into the household the business their life and well into um their recovery or wellness and whatever that will look like what that means from this looking out is we have a team of about 80 across the country Boston New York Miami and here in Los Angeles we work nationally and globally which means unlike a therapist or a psychiatrist we go to the work um if it’s in a jail cell in Boise if it’s in that hotel suite in Mexico City if it’s on someone’s front lawn in Philadelphia that’s where the work is that’s where we go and that’s where we our teams start to attach themselves to that family system and to the work and a lot of times that is about containment stabilization diagnostic therapization um and really continued um kind of a series of micro interventions through a variety of different inflection points whether it’s as simple as you know letting a mom know that it’s okay if you don’t um respond immediately to a text message it’s okay if you shut your phone off for the night it’s okay if you don’t fire off another 500 when your son or daughter is bullying you or gaslighting you um and and really again like focusing on the family around where the fire is or where the fire may be I think that’s a good kind of thematic look at who we are and what we do yeah absolutely so and I appreciate that it I mean it sounds your crisis case management I think it’s informed by everything you just stated that the families are generally uh calling you guys in a moment of Crisis or with a history of Crisis uh within their family systems and you know for any of the you know families out there that are going through crisis is currently uh within their lives whether they’re going to reach out to you know your firm tomorrow or to a place like you know Peaks recovery centers what is often time the first thing you’re trying to negotiate with a family system because they’re desperate for Hope and change and these sort of things but you know before we can get from point A to the end of a potential you know Journey whether that’s recovery oriented or otherwise that’s going to come with uh some steps in between it so kind of what is that first approach with family systems to you know maybe calm that noise I mean I heard some of it certainly through hey we’re just going to put down the phone for the night we’re not going to send that 500 give yourself some Grace and love as a family system you’re doing the best you can but you know without me you know kind of maybe stealing the show here what is what is that kind of initial energy you’re trying to provide back to the family system but we we really get calls at two different places along the Continuum of Care one is from a case management standpoint when someone a loved one is further along they may be about to discharge from residential something may have blown up um not from a a profound crisis standpoint something may have blown up along the way with their their PHP or their living environment and it’s not necessarily like rush them to a hospital or rush them back to residential but to get in to stabilize that’s really about half of our phone calls from discharge planners or therapists that want our help in integrating with a treatment plan and then help like actualizing a treatment plan post discharge that’s about half of our book of business from a crisis standpoint um it’s why my head was kind of bobbling when you were when you were forming that question it really is all shapes and sizes right okay um I’m actually shocked sometimes that any family system anywhere um that one person within it has the wherewithal and awareness to raise their hand and ask for help you know especially with an indictment or a judgment of family systems with the corrosiveness um and a lot of times systemic and generational trauma um that that family system has that they’re capable not not from us from anybody that they’re capable of asking for help at all um the one word that comes to mind isn’t necessarily an answer to your question but I think it’s the thing that they respond to the most is Authority if if we can’t in if we can’t connect with them uh with a sense of authority um then there’s really no reason for them to hire us what they’re looking for um I think whether they know it or not is someone to step into the middle of the fire with them take a deep breath not be emotionally attached like they are they have a loved one in crisis they’re in it they’ve been in it for months or years or decades their ability to see what we see from a professional non-emotional investment standpoint is just different and to really get in there with a plan and a sense of authority and collaboration honor where they’re all at but say the next healthiest best step is this let’s do that and then once that kind of rubber hits the road even pre-admission or pre-engagement sometimes unbeknownst to them because they’ve been in crisis living for so long that’s all they’ve done I think that can give them a sense of relief um and that may be the unanswered question they were looking for to step back for a second we get a lot of calls from families that have been through 10 15 treatment environments they’ve had their pockets picked they’ve been misdiagnosed they are very Savvy in terms of like um residential facilities the lingo the speak all of it and they’re really emotionally and financially and physically exhausted they most likely have a loved one from a mood or thought disorder standpoint that will always need some kind of care um and they’re really just asking for help and I think our not that we have a magic wand or a special sauce we do not but I our collaboration and our industry knowledge we’ve been doing this for a long time we have a big huge team with massive rolodexes our ability to kind of roll up our sleeves and get into the conspiracy with them and hold their hand and walk them out of it without false promises I think that’s another um I think thing that sets us apart or makes me proud of of how we present ourselves every day yeah I mean I think that that image of um walking into the fire with the family is really powerful because that’s really what you’re describing you guys are actually racing towards the fire rather than running away from it and all of those those sort of components that you described earlier on like uh clients and patients with uh High psychosis High death risk you know all of these what the most treatment facilities in the industry really look at is liability really are what you guys race towards and that’s a pretty powerful um Mission as a company and um yeah I’m just really curious like how do you maintain that energy because I I think that there are so many that just when I think about that from a longevity standpoint I just I can see the emotional uh kind of wear and tear that that might that that might create so I’m just curious about what that looks like for you guys well I I know personally it’s my my recovery therapy my dog my um really honoring kind of the the jackass child in me um and that’s that’s me personally sure professionally you know this isn’t camp this isn’t rehearsal we’re we’re doing this we’re running a business and these things I’m talking about are really happening right and we we got sometimes we gotta go the first name in our business is Crisis for a reason the phone calls that we get we get for a reason you know a lot of days we’re going to have people on planes 20 minutes ago I I think two things one we’re so team oriented internally we’re never asking one individual to carry everything because they’ve got so much collaboration and support whether it’s booking planes or you know getting vobs running a facility or looking around the corner of this problem or this problem or someone’s working with an overwhelming family I just I can’t deal with the mom right now we can bring another team member in to integrate immediately so that individual and their skill set can be honored with that part of the job we’re really really adapted doing that and I think that skill for us institutionally has come out of necessity um not necessarily virtue um and also like we were talking about before the zoom you know we’re constantly paying for team members of to go to on-site to do intensives um to do trainings they want to do we have a wonderful director of case management who was one of our most senior case managers and now she’s she’s essentially our internal um uh I’m gonna say this um Colonel like coaches coach so she’s the one that really day to day is monitoring is this team working well together um is that person getting triggered or going through cross transference with a client or with a family member or with a therapist at a facility how can we best support that uh how do we how can we constantly remind ourselves that we don’t know what we don’t know which is so important to our business we’re not making widgets people die right we have to like absolutely Frosty and fresh and if we get jaded and cynical that’s a real problem for us obviously culturally but as a business that’s a real problem as well absolutely yeah I appreciate the question Clinton and then as you know as well too Ryan I I’m curious about you know you you find a place maybe you didn’t an indeed you know job application or something that brought you on board with you know crisis case management at uh in the first place however that path you know came to be you step into a center that’s motivated to help family systems in a world I mean we know the history and we’ve talked about a lot here in uh you know Finding Peaks episodes the you know uh corruption and the the decisiveness divisiveness and all of these features of you know we use the language early I’ll just keep it going the rehab industrial complex you know here in the United States of America and I imagine coming onto the role there’s a great deal of Hope and passion around what you’re doing at the same time there’s probably some immediate experiences that you’ve learned of like what is going on with either you know inpatient residential programs or outpatient or whatever it was that you were trying to case remember you know case manage family members too and I’m just curious if you can walk us through kind of what it was like to walk into the environment with the passion to help the need that’s out there but then also to get exposed to kind of the sickness of the Behavioral Health Care industry
the for me they’re not connected um I I grew up in downtown Boston um I went to grammar school with our founder um we both lost Brothers to untreated alcoholism my brother Duncan died of a heroin overdose in a hotel room in Bangkok in 1996 um and Mike’s older brother and my middle brother we all went to the same Grammar School um I I was a screenwriter in Hollywood um I was on a fishing trip in Miami like eight and a half years ago I stayed behind for a couple days to hang out with Mike we were having coffee and I um I had a really good screenwriting run and then two years of kind of hell alone chain smoking in a studio apartment and I just I just blurted out to Mike I’m like I have no idea what you do but if you ever need any help I’d love to help and I started out with CCM doing a very little amount of marketing work and it just kind of exploded into this thing and in the last eight years the company has grown from this to this and and here I am um it became and this is I’m so grateful for this um it’s become one of the most significant happy accidents of my life I mean I come from the families that we work with um yes this is a job yes it’s grueling yes it’s emotionally it’s raining we really do help people you know like for real and it’s incredibly rewarding uh whether it’s team members or clients or for their collaboration with facilities it’s genuine and it’s real and it’s in real time and it’s no joke and I love it um to your question we’re we’re lucky um in a couple of aspects one we’re primarily cash pay um we we are insurance won’t go near us so are the clientele that we deal with and also the facilities that we deal with are primarily cash pay and because you know probably 80 percent of our clients are primary mental health and maybe a little bit of substance abuse but it’s primary mental health the pool of facilities we’re dealing with that have the clinical chops to deal with these presentations is a lot smaller than just like a general dual environment um that said I mean there are shady people around every corner in this business I don’t care what where you’re living um and yeah we get we and I get exposed to it all the time um another lucky thing or kind of built-in cap for us is we don’t do any PPC or PR per se which means that all of our business comes from referrals from past clients from facilities from attorneys um and we honor that with everything because that’s what keeps our lights on and we understand that they’re calling our name and when we refer a family to a facility we’re putting our name behind that that’s our business and I think we protect that with so much from top to bottom that that kind of keeps the shadier part uh that keeps us away from the shadier parts of our business of our industry
yeah I appreciate I appreciate the insights uh there as well you know I asked out of curiosity because you know in the first experience of meeting you at uh especially with such a Powerhouse case management program that you’re running you know I felt like in a way you know it’s part of your role to right-size the individual that’s in front of you and you know in that way I I you know I felt like we the first time we met we were really kind of going back and forth to ensure that yeah this is going to be a valuable potential uh referral partnership down the road or it’s not going to be uh and so out of that experience uh that’s where the question of curiosity came from and grateful for you sharing that with uh with everybody at home some type of mine Clinton yeah I’m just I’m curious so what what do you guys really look for in a facility I mean especially with Mental Health primary being the a large percentage of your patient population I mean that is that is a pretty small pool I don’t see people necessarily realize that there isn’t uh there aren’t a whole lot of options out there so I am curious sort of what you guys look for and what makes a treatment center sort of um really a match for you and and the clients that you serve I mean the the first word that comes to mind uh is collaboration you know and and that’s for that’s for two reasons one is for our clients right is when we show up at someone’s door with a client um you know what we’re showing up with everything that we know and everything that we don’t know um and some goals um and a desire to partner with something that we’re not right we’re not a treatment facility we’re not a PHP we’re not an IOP we do have licensed clinicians on our team we’re not assessing people we’re not doing Diagnostics what we need for our clients is the most appropriate collaborative partner at that point through the Continuum of Care right so if there’s two identical facilities with identical staff and one is a closed off Antiquated it’s our way only facility and the other one is is open to one plus one equals three collaboration and keeping in mind that we’re not trying to do your clinical director’s job for you we just want to honor the fact that that’s our client and this is a part of the Continuum of Care and our desire from a business standpoint is to work with that family for months and months and years and years because the recovery process and the Continuing Care process it’s not 30 days an hour it this is a process from brain restoration standpoint from a family system standpoint um I think that would be the most important word is collaboration yeah that’s I think that’s great you know I think we use this term interdisciplinary a lot of times and typically it’s referring to sort of like the the inner workings of an actual organization but this idea of interdisciplinary being across companies across um this collaboration expands Way Beyond just what’s going on within an actual facility and really it it starts to connect uh larger parts of the community because what you guys have is this you you specialize in this this is something I mean case management is so under um underappreciated in so many ways because this this is the long game you know that’s what you guys are really playing the long game and the way that you guys are engaging with the family you’re playing the long and the Deep game at that point you know that’s a that’s a pretty um that’s an embedded model so I think it’s great and I love this idea of just like really expanding what it means to be in a really interdisciplinary and collaborative relationship between organizations yeah I mean we even today we have three or four case managers that are in clinical meetings at facilities with their clinicians you know not to look over not to look over their shoulder but to to to hear and listen and report back and to add different perspectives from the family or the historical information or when that happened on Tuesday after group she lit up the boyfriend like this and then this happened and this happened to truly collaborate with them and and both ways absolutely yeah that’s great I get goosebumps that’s just the clinic clinical nerd in me sorry yeah it makes me want to take a nap so we
yeah so it and and from my you know the one of the things we talk about at uh Peaks Recovery Center is uh a lot of the times or more more so as of recent right is you know we’re resourced uh primarily through Insurance dollars as a not a network provider PPO plans and so forth and those those resources namely the reimbursements come in and you know we’ve come up or learned new language for our organization that you know we have this business thing that is Peaks recovery centers and then we also have this community thing and with only so many resources uh we can only contribute to the communities you know in so many efforts one of those most important things of course is family systems uh you know a second piece from there can be our peer recovery coach model a third piece could be case management but when when your resources are only so much you know in an organization that’s dedicated to the inpatient sort of model at the end of the day these resources you know generally are going to suffer in that way you know from a community standpoint and and I really see your services uh in this sort of dichotomous sense as really Community Based and fundamentally based in that regard to be able to point at the institutions that are appropriate for care and to have those private paid dollars and resources come in to actually give the family all of the community resources that are potentially in front of them is pretty powerful so you know with that being a Community Driven organization you know what are the what are the challenges uh for you guys as an organization you know here at Peaks our challenges are inserting those communal aspects but being a community-based model you know some what are some of the challenges maybe that family systems are calling on you guys uh to support them with where your services may you know maybe start to experience some of the challenges like we do on that Community side of things such a good question you know and it’s families aren’t a monolith right it’s all anecdotal um right yeah I mean I think I would wish in some cases that you know that one more family member or they’re I’m not even talking about money um or there could be one more month you know for a light to go off in one more family member um to not for us but to see that there’s another way right and whatever that way may be um you know again like I I come from these families that we work with and if I could wave a magic wand I I think it would be more Global psycho education you know um and you know we talk about this all the time like how can we get this whole family to do to start doing some real family work you know and then what comes out of that individually and how will that start to trickle down into their own children their own relationships around holding the door open for someone at 7-Eleven all of it and then looping back to selfishly from the care of the IP standpoint you know whatever they are in the Continuum of Care there’s so much focus on that fire and putting that fire out and what happens next how can the simultaneous care individually and collectively of the family system start to hold the person in crisis as everyone is evolving I mean I I at the end of all admissions calls um I try to remind people of two things you know one is that self-care is so critically important right now for a number of reasons because of the crisis that you’re living in and also you starting to model that behavior for loved ones a child a spouse a parent whatever it’s incredibly important right um I I don’t know I mean we help some people but then you get a phone call and you’re like wait a second this is one of like 700 000 families that are presenting exactly like this and I think that that feels daunting sometimes they’re just I mean you guys should have 1.2 million beds right yeah yeah absolutely yeah yes working it works daunting yeah working on operationally yeah we’re working on scaling it uh certainly at this time Goosebumps are gone [Laughter] are absolutely gone now so yeah when uh you know when I when I think of concepts of self-care uh you know one of the things we talk about a lot are boundaries and on on finding Peaks and certainly in Peaks recovery centers and no doubt in crisis case management uh and and through that systems and and you know families come to me like oh I held a boundary with the client you know with my loved one Brandon but it didn’t work and it’s like well describe to me that boundary and then they describe it and it’s generally like a structural thing for them right I’m gonna put a wall here I’m gonna put a curb here stop the behavior by moving these sort of you know metaphorical structures around and it’s uh it’s missing the Target in that regard and but it feels like there’s a real power and in essence once families obtain what a true boundary is and and you know and in that regard self-care comes out of boundaries in a variety of different things but I’m curious you know from you know CCM through your own lens in that regard you know how you would uh help families to identify what boundaries are so maybe they can hear it from not from because we keep talking about it finding Peaks maybe they’re like shut up yeah shut up you guys you keep talking maybe through a new lens we can bring in another you know vision for boundaries and how families can really start to mold that into their own lives who might be watching this with us today
um good question I I think especially through crisis it is such a um it’s such a foreign concept to them in practicality that it becomes one of the series of micro interventions and it’s really about hand-holding them even into the realm of holding a real boundary right otherwise it’s all theoretical and also from a strategic standpoint and from an intervention standpoint we really need them to hold that boundary you know from a compliance standpoint when we talk about emotional leverage financial leverage custodial legal leverage when we’re talking about trying to contain someone we we need that coalescence in those boundaries it I think it becomes a little bit easier anecdotally within that to say Dad you need to turn the money off right now otherwise this is going to happen and it’s not necessarily Landing with them as a parent or as a human being it’s Landing with them as a participant in this conspiracy to get from point A to point B um right I would go to something a mom told me like nine months ago she was talking about holding a boundary with her son um it dysregulated him it pissed him off and she smiled and said this doesn’t feel good right and her son is like no Mom it hurts you know I can’t believe you’re doing this to me and she said sweetie this is what it feels like when someone cares for you and from a mother to a son that’s not my line it was a mom that told me that I think that’s everything yeah and I think it’s it’s a sophisticated internal negotiation for individuals what’s best for me for self-care and what what am I willing to do up to a certain line and then how will that be expressed to my loved one and then the potential consequences of that from just from a straight Al-Anon standpoint if they’re none of my business they’re really none of my business you know um I I don’t know if there’s a simple straightforward answer to that question a lot of it is contextual for us at least um based on where we’re catching them you know absolutely yeah I think there’s really important language you know that you that you shared in there this is what it is like to be loved to be cared for sometimes to be loved and to be cared for it is against the grain of what our expectations are as individuals and additionally to that uh to you know to to nurture that you know the families get that input back oh you’re screwing me over or it’s you’re you’re doing this and you’re affecting my life and how dare you and that sort of thing and you know from that shame standpoint we don’t receive that as uh you know I did a bad thing but I’m a bad person right and because we’re really the whole time engaged relationally with our loved one regardless of their struggles and so it’s really difficult to totally it sounds like in all of our experiences from family systems to hear that they’re just frustrated by the love and care that they’re receiving not that you as an individual are a bad person in this moment and you know sorting out that shame and allowing parents to experience you know kind of like what we do collectively each and every day at peace and certainly at CCM we experienced a lot of negative energy coming our way and and rightfully so right we’re treating individuals who are suffering in the world family systems that are tired tuckered out financially strained all of those sort of things so of course you know they’re going to have an emotional energy to give us you know but we learn as professionals and in time not only through self-care and so forth to just create that emotional distance to know they’re not necessarily yelling at us they’re just expressing frustrations and out of that you know we’re not you know bad practitioners at the end of the day and um so those insights into family systems and as much as we can continue to address and readdress boundaries as a concept I think you know nationally it becomes an easier conversation and something that you know they can better understand and uh with that you know kind of a challenge and a question is so much of CCM and rightfully so is focused on the family system you know how often are you guys you know this is going to be an anecdotal sort of on the side of CCM running into situations in which the family calls you hey here’s we’ll pay for Johnny to go from point A to point B we’ll do everything but we don’t want to participate in this because I think we all collectively know how powerful from a Community Asset the family system is but sometimes you just get disinterested family systems they want the the sort of cure without the involvement and how do you walk family systems through that energy they might be giving you in that way if if that if that was presented to us and there was a non-compliant IP um and there was no uh apparent leverage um or even opportunities to develop a Therapeutic Alliance with them to try to nudge them towards wellness and whatever that may be um we we probably wouldn’t take their money wow
that’s a big say yeah absolutely yeah yeah I mean because we’re we’re not we’re not in the check cashing business and if there’s no opportunity and we would look for it um if there’s no opportunity to influence change what are we going to do I mean absolutely yeah I think that’s just a testament to how much you guys really believe in this uh this sort of systems kind of uh level of of care and what that means for wellness and just long-term sustainable recovery so no that’s a great answer absolutely yeah and it’s a message I think you know uh wholeheartedly our industry just needs to hear at times that it’s that you know I I maybe we talked about this the first time Ryan when we were on the first call together but you know every Treatment Center’s website says dual diagnosis and it’s just not the case that that’s you know true at the end of the day and um I get it we’re businesses we have to Market we have to advertise we have to have patience to stay alive as a program it’s one of those uh frustrating balances that exist Within These business structures you know as you said right we’re not selling Snickers bars or these Commodities over here there’s a patient live and family system that’s in Jeopardy here and and to the very literal sense May ultimately die in the process if they don’t achieve their goals and to run into systems that are oriented to no we’ll just take you and you got a heartbeat in an insurance card or you know private pay rates um has come at a significant cost for our industry and it’s been so disingenuous and it’s also also probably how you’ve arrived at certainly in your experiences those frustrated family systems 14 15 treatment centers later in that regard so um so I think that’s right size and I think that’s balanced and I really do appreciate you having that mentality to know what distance uh you guys can actually take a family system in that regard because you have we’re not we’re not unaware of our success either and we do a lot for a number of different reasons to honor that you know we scholarship people and we will bend over backwards to say Yes um you know even if it’s Net Zero for us and we could pay a team member to go do whatever you know will help and because we um you know we place a lot of cash pay clients every year we have a certain gravitas within our industry and if you know we got to go try to help someone get a scholarship to try to help save someone we will go ahead and do that like this is this is what we do you know
yeah you know I’m curious you know at I I think that’s at some point a bridge you have to cross in healthcare right is you’re gonna you you have you know customers who can pay for the service and you have customers who can’t and from a community level it’s important to invest in your community you know corporate responsibility you know uh uh business responsibilities within the community in that regard and so it makes sense you know that you would um nurture you know scholarship opportunities on behalf of individuals but again every company is you know resourced in a way that can always provide the opportunities and just curious from like uh just a systems and team standpoint you know how you guys nurture and I guess this is more for just you know the business environments out there from a company that’s really passionate about Desiring to help people uh you know it’s the reality for Peaks recovery centers it’s the reality for addiction treatment centers down the street from us psych wards and so forth you know we just don’t always have the resources to help you know people and I’m just curious as a company culture how you guys you know continue you forward with the mission and vision while also appreciating that as a real reality of our of our business models I mean I don’t want to get political but in a perfect world exist and there’d be incredibly available Healthcare hanging from every tree on the corner that’s the reality right right we’re expensive we’re a private pay not everyone has post-tax dollars just laying around to have a consultancy help them through crisis and appropriate placement and collaboration so things get done and long before we understand that um do we have to say no to some people because of finances sometimes yes do we say yes to people because of finances sometimes a lower level of finances of course we do um and I think we talked about this on our zoom and I think this is a part of how we kind of pay it forward or backwards um is about 70 of our inbound calls 7 out of 10 is non-revenue producing it’s about helping other players in our industry redirecting them you know adding because we’ve that so many providers and facilities and hospitals it constantly making sure that the right person or family is connected to the right provider at the right time seven out of ten of our calls are dedicated to that it’s a part of how we Market but I think it’s also a part of how we do what we can do to keep good healthy Integrity driven blood moving through our industry
appreciate that anything top of Mind Clinton no I mean I just uh I I think uh as this conversation has sort of evolved I’m just really grateful for um being able to talk about this part of the Continuum of Care because I think it just isn’t usually discussed right like it’s but this is actually part of the intervention like this you guys taught you were talking about these micro interventions and I just think that’s such a wonderful concept and something that we don’t always pay attention to that it’s really the especially early on in this process it’s all of these little bits of help and support that you’re providing to both the patient and to the family that really starts to move like as you talked about from that pre-contemplation to the contemplations sort of aspects of of desire and willingness to get help and um but yeah I think that it’s it’s just this we’d never really talk about the sort of before you know like it’s always about the during and the after and so this I just really have been enjoying this conversation and talking about this level of of service as part of that Continuum I think it’s just a yeah so I’m I’m just sitting here being happy and enjoying to talk so yeah yeah I appreciate it you know and and Ryan on you know just a couple of follow-up questions and we’ll tie it out here but uh you know as I shared with you in our first uh you know conference call together our mission at Peaks is to save lives and what a challenge that is and what a challenge you probably experienced in uh under that that same title and then our vision is to you know disrupt an industry through quality of care you know here at Peaks we’re learning you know as as we’re learning how big the potential disruption is that it can exist in a curriculum it can it can exist in the Continuum of Care it can exist in we’re going to do the right thing and collect deductibles it can exist and we’re gonna advertise in an ethical sense of things it can exist in we’re going to nurture staff uh in an industry of of high burnout uh in that regard and so just giving out some of those examples of you know potential disruption they can be you know small medium large at the end of the day they can be incredibly huge um but if you could you know at this time Ryan and knowing what you know about you know the mental health Space Case Management you know crisis if you could do anything to disrupt it right now positively speaking of course you know what would that be and what would that look like stay away from insurance because that’s a whole other policy that’s fair that’s bad I I think it would be two things one I think it would be um lowering the barrier or eliminating or vaporizing the barrier between presentation and placement meaning um how an IP is presenting what those needs are and then what is the most appropriate placement you know I love Google but that is not a placement tool right um second would be if I could wave a magic wand it would be requiring family members to start their therapeutic work as their loved one is being admitted period um but we one of our most senior interventionists requires both Mom and Dad to have verifiable therapist appointments before she’ll intervene in a loved one I know there’s there’s some ngos or non-profits out there that do similar things I think the fear of uh most institutions most residential institutions is we can’t push the payer too far uh we don’t want to we don’t want to tear that admission uh but if if that if that if I could wave a magic wand that would 100 be it because it would benefit everybody
absolutely yeah yeah absolutely I mean and and in our experience certainly an invested family system is an Engaged family system and and out of that engagement what you get when you because it’s not linear right it’s it’s an up and down Journey for the patient and their struggles regardless of what that is and when those those ups and downs experiences comes a family that’s engaged and situated is more curious about what to do next and less frightened and panicked in that regard and so that’s an incredible value proposition and you know I think at the end of the day it’s small conversations like these that ultimately will hopefully lead families into okay when you make that phone call to CCM or to a Peaks Recovery Center is like I know from the beginning I got to get engaged in this so that this outcome can actually become a reality or if if it’s uh without the family system if it’s this far with the family system it only has to be this far you know when we can communicate healthy with each other in that way so um so yeah that’s the thing I wanted to you know just get at always curious about how people are thinking about disruption and what people are finding themselves frustrated with you know within our industry whatever that perspective may look like uh at the end of the day and so before I kind of take this out on behalf of the episode you know Ryan thanks again so much for being with us but hopefully you can just share a little bit about with the viewers about how to find you guys um you know a website Instagram maybe all the things you guys are doing out there uh let the family systems know at home how to reach out to you guys and find you in that way it crisiscm.com www.crisiscm.com
um everything is on there and I I really mean this like whether you’re gonna hire us or not um if you have questions about any part of anything we’ve talked about at all uh please call or email we are here to help that’s what we do um that’s what we pay our teams to do that’s why we’re doing what we do that’s what’s kept our lights on for 23 years um and that’s what’s I think created um a space in our business that I’m proud of um so check out the website text or call or drop us an email or whatever uh we’re here to help if we can I I appreciate it Ryan into the into the viewers out there as I take you out the first time I met Ryan the first time we collectively did as a as a treatment program in a center he said the exact same thing to us uh regardless of the situation regardless of circumstance the socioeconomic status of the family system give us a call we mean it I didn’t have to bring it up he brought it up we’re talking about real genuine people and hard-working people on behalf of family systems and getting people well in a really disorienting environment at times as we’ve all talked about on finding Peaks so uh you know thanks again to the crisis case management team nationally and globally working on behalf of family systems again my name is Brandon Burns chief executive officer for Peaks recovery centers uh please email us thoughts ideas questions that’s how we do these episodes finding Peaks at peaksrecovery.com find us on the tick tocks the Facebooks the twitters all the Social Media stuff we love you all thanks to you so much for joining us and we’ll see you next time

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Episode 80Managing Recovery with Dr. Kevin McCauleyWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/0eRISS6pDcUListen NowDescriptionOn this very intellectual and inspiring episode, we have a special guest, Dr. Kevin McCauley, a Senior Fellow at The Meadows. He shares how he became interested in the treatment behind substance use disorders while serving as a naval flight surgeon and how it led him to film and direct the two films, “Memo to Self” and “Pleasures Unwoven.” This conversation provides valuable insight into how addiction can be perceived and the interesting concepts, models, and determinants of such complex disorders individuals struggle with.

Talking Points1. Dr. Kevin McCauley’s recovery story 2. The Navy’s Zero Tolerance 3. When the Choice Model meets the Disease Model 4. The 4 E Cognition 5. Does someone have to have trauma or bad experiences to become addicted to alcohol or drugs? 6. Do the cravings ever go away? 7. Why the films 8. We can’t just forget about The Disease Model. Quotes

”That’s one of the poignant things about addiction is, that people with addiction are almost accepting of this fate, be it punishment, rejection, death. There’s a Thanatos instinct that takes over. Unfortunately, that is a part of addiction, but also trying to show people that it doesn’t have to be that way. There are ways out of this, there is a good life ahead of you in recovery. ”-Dr. Kevin McCauley, Meadows Senior Fellow

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 80 TranscriptsBrandon Burns chief executive officer for Peaks recovery centers excited to have you all back for another Finding Peaks episode we got a thriller today so I hope you got your popcorn your soda all the good things next to you take some notes because we got some information coming your way that’s pretty exciting join today by Chief clinical Officer Jason friezma LPC Lac all the clinical things and our special guest today Dr Kevin McCully is a Meadows senior fellow joining The Meadows Behavioral Health Team in 2016. a 1992 graduate of Drexel University School of Medicine he first became interested in the treatment of substance use disorders while serving as a naval flight surgeon where he observed the U.S Navy’s policy of treating addiction as a safety non-moral issue and returning treated Pilots to flight status under careful monitoring Dr McCauley wrote and directed Two films memo to self about the concepts of recovery and management and pleasure unwoven for all the viewers out there you I know you’ve seen it look it up it’s out there it’s great about the Neuroscience of addiction which won the 2010 Michael q Ford award for Journal realism from the National Association of addiction treatment providers to mouthful their folks but we got some special talent here today Kevin welcome and thank you so much for being here thank you Brandon it’s great to be here yeah absolutely um so let’s just dive right into it we’ve had the past two to three hours to practice today for this moment I always love hanging out with you and enjoying our conversations waxing philosophical about the industry the state of addiction mental health and so forth and you know one of the first things I think that would be you know great for the viewers out there you have your own personal story around addiction that you um at least in the way that I see it out there in the world and the experiences you’ve been very vulnerable sharing in those experiences and I think out of that you get a why you do the things you do at the end of the day and why you’re so passionate about the work and the disease model and all of these things within um uh this industry in particular and so I was just hopeful that you know you can bring the viewers a little bit close to that and share that experience with them sure well I’m uh can’t say that I was really much of a drug user when I was in high school or college uh but uh when I was when I left medical school I was in the Navy I had trained as a flight surgeon in Pensacola uh this was a very very happy time of my life I just I love being around pilots pilots are a fascinating group of patients because they hate doctors and so you’ve already got kind of a typical clinical situation but if you develop a relationship they they will come to trust you and they will come to you with medical problems and that’s the idea there’s this old saying that a flight surgeon never really knows how good a job he or she is doing because the mishap that would have occurred never did and I like that the flying was great I spent a lot of time throwing up but but it was right around that time that I had to have a surgery I couldn’t take the medication for this condition I had to have the surgery to get it fixed definitively if I wanted to stay in the Navy and I did and at the end of that surgery three and it was a very interesting moment because I remember asking the doctor are you going to give me something for pain and he was a urologist so you can connect the dots about you know what kind of pain we’re talking about and I can remember I was sitting in the bed the catheter he was here my mother who’s also a physician was here and he knew that I didn’t really need it and she knew that I didn’t really need it but I was scared and he wrote me for some oxycodone and that was it wasn’t my first exposure but I can tell you exactly where I was I can feel the planet spinning through space when I took that oxycodone and I took the medication it was time to go back to work that’s fine great that was a fun weekend and didn’t think more about it but then I got re-exposed again after a wisdom tooth extraction and then again after another medical procedure and pretty soon I had myself a pretty severe intravenous Demerol problem now this was the year 1997. if a pilot had alcoholism we had an excellent you know protocol for that I mean I had two alcoholic Pilots got them evaluated got them to treat them got them right back in the cockpit but drugs were a different story back then you you were handled punitively and so I realized I gotta fix this I gotta stop using and at the time I thought I could because I was very motivated to not do this anymore that was a terrible year that was just a very very frightening terrifying the sense of impending doom and eventually you know the Navy found out and they court-martialed me and they sent me to What’s called the United States disciplinary Barracks it doesn’t sound all that bad but it’s the military’s Maximum Security Prison at Fort Leavenworth and so that that was in many ways that was my first year of recovery and I I hope you never hope nobody ever finds themselves in prison but when you’re in prison you kind of wake up a little bit now that the drugs are gone and you sort of say gee am I am I a terrible person you know I mean am I a sociopath yeah it’s kind of an interesting existential question because you’re like how do you know if you’re not a sociopath maybe that’s the first thing a sociopath tells you that’s right you know you’re not a suspect don’t worry about it so it’s hard to figure it out um but I I really just was fascinated like like how did this happen and I think everybody with addiction has a quiet moment where they ask themselves why do I do this how did this happen and this is the Year 1997 and 1997 Alan leschner had just written his addiction as a brain disease and it matters uh um article uh he uh was the head of the National Institute of drug abuse that at the time was a very um you know radical article it has since come in for a lot of abuse it’s kind of a lightning rod now but the neuroscience at that time was just starting to come together and so that’s if I wasn’t doing my job which was Leaf blowing I was very good at it actually it’s an excellent you know I was one of five Physicians there and we were all very good leaf blowers apparently this is what we should be doing um it takes a physician to do this work well you give a leaf blower to a sex offender and they don’t know what the hell they’re doing they just blow leaves all over the place but a doctor we know you know exactly how to do this well and uh when I wasn’t doing that I was just reading reading reading everything I could get my hands on and the stuff I read just was astonishing there really were reasons for this and over the last 25 years since that time the Neuroscience has gotten stronger the parts we didn’t understand have kind of filled in and so that’s basically what I do now is to try to really you know uh doing almost exegesis of that question can this really be considered a disease why why not what problems come with that what problems get solved with that and there’s you know just so much to learn I mean the Neuroscience just gets more and more faster this is a wonderful time I think to get sober beautiful I appreciate it yeah so I mean I’m going to jump in on like the counselor’s side and he’ll he’ll handle the brain side probably um I I kind of want to know like what moment you you came to grips with like both this the irony may be that you’re helping people in the military kind of have go in a restoration process right with a similar issue yeah and meanwhile you are face the worst punishment imaginable right right having an addiction I we maybe walk us through yeah in the Leavenworth Barracks which sound beautiful like this little food all that probably well when I was trying to you know stop on my own that was a gift I think I was given from the first unauthorized Percocet this is not something that I was supposed to be doing yeah I think there are a lot of clinicians are like well we all kind of do it no this is I had a secret clearance I wasn’t supposed to be doing this so there was a lot I was really trying to bring the normative values of being a naval officer and a doctor to bear on this problem and what shocked me is it would work for a little while and then it would fail and I had had a patient the first time that my first night actually as an intern at Oak Knoll Oakland Naval Hospital a young sailor came in with the Shore Patrol for a confinement physical this was a guy who it turned out to be addicted to heroin and he had tried so hard to stay off and then finally he just couldn’t take it anymore and he left and so they tracked him down and found him in a hotel room and they dragged him into the ER and my job was to kind of make sure that he was physically okay that he could be sent to the brig and actually he was on a ship so there’s a a little box that says is this sailor is this individual safe to go on a diet of bread and water it’s kind of an Arcane punishment that and I just remember this poor guy and he was so accepting of his fate he you know kind of felt I failed I deserved this and I just found that so tragic because the real answer was he never should have been put in that position there was a time that the Navy treated heroin addiction because it had a heroin problem it was a very very good Hawaii 5-0 episode the old kind okay where Dano goes undercover on a Navy ship the producers worked with the Navy ship to to help you know uh this uh sailor or at least help Sailors who had a heroin problem you’ll love the scene if you ever watch it I’ll send you a clip of it and and he’s going you know gosh you know I don’t know if I should turn myself in and and Dano’s like the Navy has a program you’ll go you’ll get an honorable discharge and everything I’m like what a great Navy how do you get into that maybe yes that’s the Navy I want to be in that was not the Navy I was in yeah and that was a policy decision that was made shortly after there was a flight deck mishap on the USS Nimitz and people who died were found to have cannabis in their system and that’s where the words you know Zero Tolerance came from they came from that particular incident and the Navy was Zero Tolerance on drugs but there were great policies for us other things like you know obesity or cigarette smoking or gambling or alcoholism which is what Betty Ford eventually that’s the treatment that she got so it was a very very isolating very lonely feeling um which took care of itself and uh and now the Navy feels differently they’re not sending people to Leavenworth anymore we have patients at The Meadows who are active duty who developed addictions and are now getting treated so that’s good so I’m kind of a special case I went to Leavenworth I like to think that I went to the Harvard of Prisons I I don’t know where you went to prison but with the Leavenworth so I didn’t just go somewhere I went to this you know it was incredible it was a big brick building that looked like it had should have bats flying around it there’s a there’s a lot of history behind it um but uh I think that that’s kind of one of the poignant things about addiction and I’m sure you see it is that people with addiction they almost are accepting of this fate yeah be it punishment rejection death there’s a Thanatos Instinct I think that takes over a death Instinct and that I think is is part of addiction and part of you know trying to show people that it doesn’t have to be that way yeah there are ways out of this there’s a good life ahead of you in recovery for me that wasn’t even a possibility at that time yeah I mean I appreciate your candor actually and how you uh talk through your story I think it’s so it’s just powerful to hear people kind of free from their shame I guess of what they’ve walked through and I should have known better and well I can’t say I’m entirely okay ongoing process makes sense yeah yeah thank you yeah sure and it and it sounds like you know uh and I appreciate the question there Jay and then you know going back to this model right you know that that silent question that people are faced with addiction or you uh are steeped in that are asking themselves quietly why did I do this how have I arrived here in that sort of moment and it sounds like when you arrive you know in that you know the the Harvard of Prisons there at the end of the day you’re asking yourselves like how the heck did I get here at the end of the day and um and it seems like right that there’s this Apex moment if I’m reading the history of our of our industry correctly where you’re asking yourself a question that’s being that’s coming from the choice model that existed and then it’s a sort of beautiful Apex moment unfortunately you’re sitting in the cell in this Apex moment reading that book but the choice model is about to collide with the disease model and I’m just curious how that resonates with you and if that’s accurate as I can experience because you you shoot out of the gates on the other side with all of these positive things that you’ve done on behalf of the industry and your expertise in professionalism and so what was it like just to be a part of that that moment and not only experiencing it on the societal level but at that patient level as well too right well I mean this is this is the question that’s fascinated me I mean where does responsibility come into it where does blame come into it the way I Envision addiction is that it’s a disease of volition and I use volition as kind of a catch-all term it’s not just the doing of something it’s the why what drove me why did this option pop into my head what is what is the menu of options that I’ve got to deal with this what are the affordances that my environment provides me to be able to meet this Challenge and then once I do it did I do it well was it effective and importantly what’s the effect of my social environment having done that all of these things together I consider the Rube Goldberg machine of volition and probably at the core of this is the problem in addiction which is my value calculator is broken and so the whole driver of why I should choose this versus that is off and and I think this this idea of the Bayesian brain I’m only just starting to grasp it but every value calculation that the brain makes contains a probability calculation and so what I have a tendency to do is not only overvalue drugs but overestimate the probability that they’ll work out as I have imagined and I undervalue the consequences that result and I underestimate the probability that those consequences will in fact come true I get the math wrong so there’s a certain part of my recovery that I just have to let go of I’m not going to have control over the Thunderclap craving or the the twists and turns I can’t seem to make that big decision I’m not going to use drugs anymore if I could I would have done it right and most people do do that and I should say that most people who have addiction they kind of mature out of it over time they make some changes and they just don’t do it anymore but for the person with active addiction who can’t make that the only choices that I can make are sort of peripheral choices that change the probability field and that is where do I live who are my peers what is my job you know these are things that I do have control over and so it became clear to me that I can’t make the big decision but I can break that big decision down into a thousand little decisions and each of those are easier to make and if I make enough of them they will add up to the big decision and that’s where I think responsibility enters into it once my addiction is moving and I’m craving and I’m using you know I really uh it’s not that I won’t be held responsible for the consequences but I don’t think that that I have the same degree of choice men’s Raya if you like the intent which is what the prosecutor will look for right not just the bad things happen but that I intended for that to happen I don’t think that’s present in the craving person with addiction who’s craving but if I had failed to keep that community of recovering people in my life if I had failed to meet the the normative standards words that are expected of a physician in recovery those little decisions are where I’m culpable and and could be you know held culpable if I’m not careful absolutely as you know I I got sober in a very very strict absence-based 12-step tradition I appreciate the fact that that is not the only tradition um and but I but I tried to do what the doctors around me did and and by using that that culture of recovery and those expectations of recovery I think that that’s you know that was the one decision that I made that helped me get out of this but I can’t say well I chose to get sober I just I don’t believe that it was that simple yeah yeah absolutely beautifully stated and for the viewers out there in the legal system it’s mensra and men’s uh practice Reyes right you’re you have an intent to do something and you actually act on that intentionality addiction the action clearly takes place it’s do they have the volitional intention did they mean to cause the harm that you know as a consequence of the behaviors at the end of the day and that’s the insertion there into the disease model that something is disrupting that component right or the the multiple processes that lead to that component within the brain system in the American legal tradition we’ve always been very very skeptical of diminished capacity in the British legal tradition it’s a much more established uh Doctrine the McNaughton rule but ever since John Hinckley took a shot at Ronald Reagan we just you know hate that whole idea I think that that’s something that the law will have to eventually come to accept that the the pop psychology beliefs that we have about choice and Free Will and personal responsibility it’s not that they’re eliminated by the Neuroscience of addiction they’re deepened and they’re more complex than we were giving them credit for so how do you you know in all of your conversations and talks I’m sure you have you know Jason’s had it in a in a talk I was at that got a gentleman in the back of the room stands up and says you how dare you say something like that you know and it’s not true and I imagine at times there’s like you know somebody standing up in the back of the room you know challenging that like how do what do you mean the person didn’t have intention to do this right and so what you know for the viewers out there maybe who are just being introduced to you and those who’ve certainly seen you talk in the background you know what is your you know common response that you’re bringing forward from that physician lens to help support that individual walk through that narrative right well I mean they were in the early days there were moments of sheer Terror so I mean I’ve given thousands of lectures now and I love to sit with a group of 15 people and you know hash this out but one of the first lectures I did publicly was for the Orange County Bar Association probably not the best thing to do while I was on probation in Orange County but the judge asked me to give a lecture so I gave a lecture and about 15 minutes into it this young assistant district attorney stood up and said stop saying you have a disease you don’t have a disease you didn’t shoot gasoline into your veins you shot drugs into your veins and you did it because you liked it you don’t have a disease you use drugs because you like it and that lecture went badly and I did not I was not able to pull that one out of the fire but I you know I mean this is the kind of thing that we’ve been like I was trying to think why is what she’s saying both right and wrong and I was actually reading the doctor’s opinion and the in the big book and it says that men and women drink essentially because they like the effect produced by alcohol and I it hit me I have a problem in the like system in my brain that that value probability calculator is in error and I have to take steps to compensate for that and so um the few things the the explanation of craving the this little business about something going wrong in the like calculator these things serve as uh very powerful sound bites or at least ideas memes uh for people who are searching for something like that when they are in early recovery and I think um there’s tons that you’ll find in in every form of recovery certainly Lots in in AAA but but that’s I think what I do at the treatment center that I work at is a Is We I try to to to show people um that um that these explanations exist that’s a powerful argument you did this because you liked it but to understand what a like experience is we have to know a lot more it’s a lot more complex than we’re giving it credit for yeah I think you know we well I was gonna I was gonna yeah you saw me so Kevin what do you what do you see kind of dry like what breaks the like switch in somebody so I tend to take a sort of environmental approach um this is something you’ll be interested I mean all of my studying in the early days was about the brain if you look at cognitive science today it has sort of realized that that’s not good enough that that we really need more understanding of of how the brain is moving through the world and so this is the idea of embodied cognition that I can’t understand cognition just by looking at the brain I have to understand that I’ve got a body and the fact that I’ve got four limbs that changes my cognition this is the whole idea that trauma is kept in the body and that I need to actually look at that so those are the first two e’s of what is called for ecognition uh or excuse me the first e is is embodied the second is embedded my choice making my thinking exists in a world in a value system at a moment in history I have to take that into account too right that uh that um that there are tools that I have that there’s there’s an extended nature to my um to my cognition and my choices that I’m making the drugs work they are powerful tools that people discover very very very efficient but the fourth E I think is the one that’s so critical is that cognition and thought are enacted there is a dynamic coupling between my acts and the environment and what it feeds back to me so what this tells me is that there needs to be a strategy for each of those four e’s and so if I had to pick one if I just had to plant my flag somewhere to try to create something that would support a person’s healthy decision making for me it’s housing for me it’s the housing component if I had a dollar to spend on my addiction before I’d put it in the basket before I’d spend it on buprenorphine I’d spend it on housing because once I have safe stable secure sober housing then everything else works better and so to really look at the ecology within which my choices take place I think is is a very fruitful area and this is what I think people are doing and and peer-based Recovery sober living houses all the time the brain is just the start of the process I really need to look at the at the environment in which those choices are taking place that does it makes a lot of sense to me I mean because what I hear you saying is like in order for someone to enter recovery they do need to be safe right um and I think I I look at it as more than just kind of the brick and mortar safety like that emotional safety that like I I’m not going to be abused in this location or I’m not I don’t have to worry about my life being in Jeopardy um and probably a lot of my other basic needs are met that makes a tremendous amount of sense yeah uh I think what you’re saying um I mean it is it is curious are there other diseases that have these four e components to them as well I think so I think the in public health and that’s um kind of my area of study um we call them the social determinants of Health uh and these are all the things that make Health possible uh to be free from structural racism to be free from violence to have safe stable housing to have access to health care and mental health care to actually have an economic Future these are the really the drivers of of what make it possible to manage one’s chronic disease and again I think that that’s looking at the the embodied nature of the way I manage my diabetes let’s say right that’s looking at the embedded nature that I live in a world right now where there’s a certain technology available to me for managing my diabetes there are a few interesting medications that are coming down that that are very very powerful obesity reversers right right and so those are those are things I need to take into account there are tools in the world that I can use there might be support groups there might be I I had a I went through this um experiment where I had a little blood glucose monitor on my and it was so cool because I could watch How It Was fluctuating that didn’t exist in the past but it is really how I act in the environment I’ve really tried to think what is the most powerful Act of volition that in that a single individual can can uh can perform and I’ve done some exciting things I’ve you know taken off the deck of aircraft carriers and uh as in the back seat of course but there’s not really anything that the individual pilot does in that it’s actually a program in the plane the pilot just kind of puts his or her hands on the towel racks and then once the plane is about a quarter mile from the boat the plane the pilot takes over but it also takes the 3 000 people on the boat to make that happen so that’s a powerful Act of volition but it’s not an individual’s Act Right the most powerful and you tell me if you can think of something better I’m always asking that question the most powerful Act of evolution that an individual can engage in is injection drug use or smoking drugs the the change that occurs so quickly and the degree of change I think that once that person has experienced that that’s the rest of their life is really a workaround right and so the more we can Empower patients you know to be able to feel like they’re part of the treatment for their diabetes not just that they’re going to the doctor and the doctor is doing something to them and they better follow these rules that they’re a seat at the table of their health care that’s more of a of an ecological approach to treating diseases and you can put whatever chronic disease you want in there they’re all a little different but uh I think that that that goes beyond just what I can write on a prescription pad or a test that I can get or even a procedure I can do the patient has to be an active participant in that volitional act of of treating their chronic disease
love it why you know we talked about this earlier it’s kind of you know we’ve talked about it on this episode a few times but you know with Jason present a few others you know gabber mate’s uh text of it’s not why the addiction it’s why the pain and I think underneath that as well too there are there’s this conflation between you know somebody seeking drugs and alcohol for uh pleasure when really the goal is in pleasure it’s to arrive at this I don’t feel happy I don’t feel necessary so the goal is you know getting to this more state of Happiness right uh as an experiencer in the world and drugs are hopeful to be the Catalyst but you know as gambaramonte sits it’s almost like the drugs almost work they almost get us to that moment right right in that regard and it was just hopeful you know through your career path and professionalism that you know when you hear that language what is how do you translate that right right so I think in the case of a person with trauma or the person who has a diagnosed psychiatric disorder it’s easy to understand the motivation to try to to you know self-medicate that pain but I think it’s also possible to have Addiction in the absence of all of that simply because the intoxicant is so powerful so when we look at a cell phone checking my email that’s not that powerful and intoxicant but the variable reinforcement of the of the schedule of reinforcement all of these things add up and I think that that there are some reinforcers there are some things that we can do that are intoxicating that are so powerful that you don’t need the initial motivation to seek it it’s just such a a massive change that that the person you know becomes locked on that it’s just so efficient why would I do any of these other things I’m trying to remember back what your question was I uh so yeah just oh yeah the probability thing so so his statement I think is very very interesting because what drugs do at least for me is they they open a world of possibility they they open a world of promise that the thing that I’ve been seeking might be just around the corner and that’s why I think that’s a good statement I think cocaine is not satisfying but it just sort of holds out the promise that maybe if I do just a little bit more if I do a little stronger if I have a different situation that the thing that I’m looking for will be there and I think that that’s a hard thing to cope with um drugs basically create a Marvel Universe for me that is a lot more attractive than this you know mortal coil here and they really do change the way I look at what is possible or probable and and now I’ve got to kind of cope with that because it it turns out to be an illusion yeah so you know we’re we’re disruptors on this episode right and that you know Peaks recovery centers and it’s one of the things we’re trying to you know drive home uh at the end of the day and one of the we talked about like earlier in the day talked about like restrictive access to care if you just run an absent in space model and your website says I can treat dual diagnosis and you bring that in you’re actually only creating a pretty narrow funnel of what you can actually treat and who will receive those Services uh accordingly and ultimately arrive at positive outcomes and so uh when where am I going with this Brandon when I think about uh disruption in this sense of things one of those features of our industry is that there’s always like an underlying thing that’s causing all of these things and I think what you really said there is disruptive of that massive narrative we have in our industry and it’s right size at times I don’t want to Dismount the entire industry but uh you know in that regard to say that you can have an addiction without all of those things you know being in place I think is is not something I’ve heard of like recent right there’s always something identifiable or we can pull back enough of the you know onion layers and Discover it at the bottom but um it strikes me as disruptive because of those narratives that exist in the industry but also it seems right-sized as well too that we don’t always have to have a villain right as a layer to this that’s causing these behaviors it can just be this experience was more powerful than I ever could have imagined it and that grip and that around the corner experience even though it’s not providing me the relief I think I need or you know cocaine’s miserable to be on in the first place but somewhere right around that corner is the driver of it um and I guess I just want to recognize I don’t even know if there’s a question to it yeah yeah um I guess with something like that as a question right do you experience when you say something like that across our industry people going no no no no no no nobody just picks up a drug and is addicted right they have all these other experiences you know what would you say to maybe that person standing up at a you know speech or something I think there is a narrative of well from the first drink I knew I was an alcoholic and I certainly even though it was multiple exposures to opioids I do seem to go back to that that one night and you know that extra uh oxycodone tablet um I I think it’s actually a much more complex pattern of exposure what I’m interested in is what was going on in that moment was what I was experiencing Euphoria or was it the lifting of a pre-existing smoldering depression because opioids are very powerful antidepressants and I think it’s hard for a person to parse that out but what I think a lot of people realize if not with the first use of the Second Use they learn pretty quickly that this intoxication I can put it to work I can apply it to my problem I can use it to you know get over my social anxiety I can use it to work that extra 12 hours things like that and so drugs have utility in that purpose so part of recovery would be letting go of that shortcut I’m a drug addict I got a problem with shortcuts right and that would be the abstinence model but that’s only one model when I when my mother found out that I was a drug addict the first thing and this is why I love my mother and and uh um we went to the same medical school about six years apart so uh I love the way she answered this she said we have to get him out of the United States we have to get him out of the United States where he’ll die and get him to Holland or someplace like that where he can use his drugs and not die so let’s unpack this because there’s a lot there first of all the idea that there is there is a group of drugs a a discernible definable fungible group of drugs that can be labeled mine I liked that idea very much that had a great appeal to me but you see what my mother did she immediately um fell back on harm reduction she immediately fell back on what can we do to make sure that he doesn’t die from this this is why I love my mother and why I’m I’m glad to be her son and so I think that that really has to be the first step you know what am I doing today to make sure that this person doesn’t die and if the absence model is getting in the way of that then we may just have to delay the absence model there might be some other tools and of course there are there are other tools that we can use but my mother didn’t understand though is that there is something called recovery and again I’m using a definition of recovery that’s very strict that is abstinence based it is really the expectation for a physician in recovery if they want to go back to practicing and that’s my standard that that doesn’t have to be everybody’s standard but I think at some point uh I have to live a period where I’m not actively intoxicated and it’s it’s taken me a lifetime to try to figure out all the little ways like sugar I’m still struggling with sugar now is that intoxication Like Cocaine was intoxication or Demerol no but it’s part of the problem it’s part of the problem and so that to me is is the argument you know four abstinence is that it’s no longer creating that noise that’s that’s uh um that’s biasing my value probability calculation I got to take the intoxication out I got to take all that dopamine out of the picture absolutely yeah so something I wanted to ask you um you know 90 years ago or whenever the the big book was written um a part that always stood out to me even kind of when I was more practicing in an abstinence-based way in this profession um was the part where it says that at some point alcohol reached neutrality for some of the people working on the big book and then and then fast forward 90 years and all of a sudden we’re like okay there’s a craving State and it seems like it’s possible that that craving stick can be um resolved at some point and people can kind of find some more not just recovery but kind of freedom from from uh maybe the thoughts or the triggers of the cravings and I I just I’ve always kind of wanted to ask somebody that knows more than way more than me like do you see that like how do you see the resolution of the craving state in this compared to the neutrality so for a person in recovery so the person who’s no longer drinking right does the craving ever go away I think craving is a very variable experience a very hard experience to try to to frame in words but I do think there’s a phenomenology and experience of what it’s like to be a person in craving I’ve tried for the last 20 years to explain craving to people who’ve never experienced it I think there are a number of things that will drive my craving if I refer to have one right now for cocaine or something like that and that would be I guess I hate to be so uh um you know to use the technique but to use the language but the daily maintenance of my spiritual condition and I’m not a very religious person but I consider that you know am I am I hanging around people who are in recovery am I am I making choices to separate myself from that Old life am I am I exercising how’s my diet you know I’m not getting good sleep all of these things sort of create the foundation of of um of drive or need and if I’ve met those then I’m less likely to Crave I think over time uh it was hard because for the first two years I just craved every night and I just figured that this is what my life was going to be I was going to I feel fine in the morning and right around five o’clock I was gonna start thinking about cocaine and and 8 PM would roll around and I really want to use cocaine and I didn’t think that would ever end and finally it was my sponsor who said stop calling me every night and talking about your damn craving I’ve asked you to do steps four and five and you keep putting me off and so I did two things I I went on a drug called bupropion Wellbutrin which just kind of puts like a little scaffolding underneath the dopamine system it’s stimulant but not like Vyvanse or Adderall or anything like that very very weak dopamine Agonist and I did that four and five and then I hate to say it because I’m a scientist I want to know these things but the craving was never the same after that it did seem to shift something and is that possible with something like psilocybin does it sort of wipe out those craving connections and at least make things neutral again because that seems to be what’s happening is if you look at the connectivity in the brain of a person who’s an active addiction they have what’s called small worldedness there really is just a few very very strong connections and so whatever you input you get us the same output that there really aren’t a lot of options what these you know potential and theogens do is at least for a moment is they make every node equal which is interesting when you see alcohol kind of you know reach the quality and suddenly there’s at least a moment where the person can see other possibilities and other connections can be made that aren’t consistent with addiction it’s been my experience that this doesn’t last long that you’ve got kind of an open window there and you got to start shoving some traditional recovery things through the window but that would be interesting you know I I I think that it happened in a a more subtle way for me when I did steps four and five but I think it can happen in a Thunderclap way for people who have a you know like Bill Wilson in towns hospital but they don’t tell you about that is that they were shooting them up with all these anticholinergic drugs and it’s kind of surprising that he only had one spiritual experience right but it could be that we’re doing it in a more elegant way with these medications or perhaps ketamine or you know they’re I think they’re going to be a wide range of drugs that we’ll be able to use and at least for that moment the person can see other possibilities and the craving backs off I’m not saying it completely goes away but it no longer becomes the central driver but there was a time when I just thought eventually this is going to get me I’m just going to try to stay alive and so that’s the one thing I’m very beholden to 12-step recovery for is that I don’t crave cocaine like that anymore it just it just doesn’t happen that way yeah so yeah I appreciate it appreciate all of that um wonderfully stated I also just love listening to you in general you’re so passionate so professional so articulated clearly thought about this uh pleasure unwoven right I see how this kind of forms in my experiences and conversations with you uh and I know you have other you know films books uh that sort of thing but for the sake of the time you know the kids out there in that dopamine effect are only doing three seconds at a time on the Facebook so randomly yeah my filmmaking is not for yeah it’s terrible but in a tick tock world but for those who are going to get curious go on YouTube find your site you know get the DVD download it that sort of thing uh why pleasure unwoven and also for those who are you know kind of looking back at a 13 year old film at this point you know so let’s answer the why and then let’s also uh add to it what you would have included it if you were remaking the film today um so when you say why pleasure are you talking about the title no like you probably know the reference why why do this at all got it well just as a side you probably recognize the reference to the title so it refers to keet’s poem I think it was Keith’s poem about Isaac Newton who damn these scientists they want to unweave a rainbow and so uh that’s why I called it it sounds a little bit like a porn movie and that’s I think it’s part of its success actually that it does but it’s like can we can we actually kind of deconstruct what a pleasurable experience is and see if any of this process can go wrong but at that time there was no video presentation there Hazelden had some great films but they cost a tremendous amount of money they were basically meant to be used by you know one treatment center um there wasn’t a film for the people right right and I kept waiting for like Nova You Know PBS to make a a you know an hour-long presentation of the great scientist interview Nora volkov interview Rita Goldstein and George Kube and all these the only other thing that was out there was Bill moyers’s special from 19 I think 97. but that had really become quite long in the tooth so I I just don’t think that people communicate as strongly with Pros as they do with visual media I knew that it had to be a visual film and so I tried to to at least lay out the basic neuroscience and attempt to make an argument for why it could be considered a disease but every time I tried to make that film if it was just like like this even a discussion it didn’t work and it would make people very very angry I would put little clips on YouTube and I well I guess that’s just the way social media works but I was amazed at the violence of the responses because this is really very basic to Human Experience this Free Will thing yeah so I disguised it as basically a National Geographic travelogue because you can take pleasure on moving and turn the sound off and it’s just a beautiful landscape of Utah you know just cars drive why is there car driving around so much you know because if and so by and who’s that idiot in the cowboy costume so it comes in as very low energy yeah and non-threatening because it’s just so campy right and I think that in that way it’s sort of subtly kind of it’s just sort of a um it’s really a challenge in Social marketing right how do you take this Healthcare message and deliver it in a way that people can hear without every defense going on yeah and so that’s I think it’s part of its success but it’s just you know even my kids today say are you going to make a new film with all those driving scenes it’s kind of the family joke and and the reason that I put the driving scenes in there was because we would we would do a segment that talked about say George Cube’s research and then we would move on to the next thing and the test audiences were saying it’s going coming too fast it’s coming too fast I’m thinking about what you just said and I can’t hear the next thing that’s being said and so these stretches of boring ass photography are my lame non-filmaker attempt to try to just you know slow the whole thing down the chapter markers too are really there so that therapists can just do a chapter you know not the whole fan film but just a chapter and inspired discussion so that’s kind of the structure and the strategy of the film what I would change in it what’s what’s wrong in the film is that it uses the dsm-4 diagnostic stick dichotomy it uses basically that line crossed that there’s non-addiction and then there’s addiction where there’s substance abuse and then there’s substance dependence and really what the epidemiology showed is that you didn’t have a diagnostic dichotomy you had a range you had a spectrum of severity and that’s why the DSM-5 came out with the substance use disorder spectrum that I wish I could change but otherwise the Neuroscience is actually holding up pretty well there’s lots more to talk about it’s so much more interesting if anyone has two hundred and fifty thousand dollars that they would like to give me I would be glad to remake that thing but that just doesn’t seem to be happening no one really just comes up to me and gives me that um but I also thought that it was important to do a film about the problem and that was pleasure and woven but really about the solution I really talk about all the hopeful things and exciting things in in recovery management like like programs for professionals or Collegiate recovery communities and so I tried to to make that second film as quickly as I can but that film pleasure on woven costs sixty thousand dollars and three people made it um memo to self was three times that wow so it was it’s hard to get that kind of money together yeah but my films make money yeah I mean we we made at least a million dollars on Pleasure unwoven so I’ll give your money back yeah you know need that that funding but someone else is going to come along and make an even better film and that’s that’s what I’m excited about I really am interested in the visual media that’s being made that’s telling the story of recovery because that’s what changed everybody’s attitude about HIV AIDS it was the fact that people wrote plays and music and poetry and films and they told the story and expressed the humanity of people who were dying of AIDS and that was what allowed that uh that Health movement to shift our understanding and our appreciation and our empathy for those patients I think that’s what I’m hoping for now this Renaissance of creativity that will tell the story of recovery and I think that that’s our best defense against the encroaching you know stigma that will eventually start creeping back in yeah yeah I’m not sure if I answered your question perfectly answered it that was that was awesome thank you for that ride I was also a rewrite on all those cars and pleasure unwoven as well too yeah I was hoping to call it campy too that’s my favorite hey man if I could afford a cast I wouldn’t be in the cowboy uniform I wouldn’t be dressed up like you know like Marcel proust like an idiot you know with these little Starbucks Madeleine cookies but what I learned is that filmmaking is like how are you going to solve a series of problems um I would have loved to use animation animation at that time cost a thousand dollars a second now it costs a thousand dollars a tenth of a second so there’s no real way to do the kind of Animation that you’ll now see on the on the real Nova show that came out about eight years ago uh on the Neuroscience of addiction um so it’s funny because filmmaking really you have to be a complete well if you’re a good filmmaker you don’t have to do this but if you’re a bad filmmaker you have to be a complete [ __ ] like and I just had to be just like a complete monster to get what was in here on film I I hate to tell you how abusive I and and uh you know it would be hard to go back into that because it is an a massive Act of volition to try to to get that image you know onto uh media um so I would I would need a lot of control uh if I was ever to try to do it again it would frighten me yeah yeah all right well we just got to find the funding I think we have the cameras yeah you do this is a great setup in fact the cameras you’re using were the very cameras we shot on so so uh Jay you got anything all right on the kind of the final way out here uh you know uh you know the thing that comes up we talked about a little earlier again it’s referencing Gabriel mate he’s a big figure in um in the substance use disorder space Mental Health primary space and for a lot of great reasons he’s writing some incredible books but the it seems like we’re at this new sort of Apex moment right we did Choice into disease and now we’re you know and then now we’re in this moment of I wouldn’t know what to call it but under the language the disease model of pathology processes right and Gabor mate seems to be really pushing that its process is not pathology and through your lens right I’m curious you know for the viewers out there what does that mean to you and um how do you how do you see this positively shifting this and how much of do you see the disease model still resonating even under maybe this new lens if it is this new Apex moment where we’re sure it’s complex um the trauma narrative is a powerful narrative and it’s given voice to many people and I think it’s a it’s a you know something certainly that I suppose it’s having a moment right now so it doesn’t matter what I think um and I definitely appreciate Dr Mateo’s humanity and all of his work and the power of his writing it’s important to understand that Dr mate is a Canadian and the things that work in Vancouver do not necessarily work in the United States if you said harm reduction 15 years ago your career was over you would never get funding you would always be on the periphery the political you know Wasteland doing very good work harm reduction has always been the national policy of Health Canada and so because Canada has a more Public Health understanding in general because people were actually willing to put on mass Canadians are just nicer people than Americans I think they are more higher evolved life form quite frankly because they can say things like sorry right Americans can’t do that so you’re never going to get safe injection sites or safe Supply into the United States and so I think it’s important to understand the the possibility landscape that operates in a country like Canada and how it’s different from the United States um and that would be that that sort of embedded nature of addiction I I certainly do respect the idea of not just reducing addiction to pathology to understand these processes I would like to know more about that I’m saying that the processes that are possible in Canada may be very difficult in the United States doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try
when people ask if addiction is a disease at least 15 years ago people would say well we really have to you know let the doctors answer that question okay if you get the doctors in the room and you ask them that question they’re going to turn to the pathologists pathology is an amazing field five years of training after medical school that’s as much as a general surgeon and then there are usually more specialty training that you can get in addition to that there’s an old joke that uh surgeons know nothing and do everything and Internal Medicine doctors know everything but do nothing and Pathologists know everything and do everything one day too late you just understand the the massive fund of knowledge that a pathologist must have and a pathologist sees disease as injury whether it’s a big injury like a broken bone whether it’s a molecular injury right I don’t think that we should give up on the pathology model just yet because if you’re really trying to understand how things like structural racism housing discrimination not expanding Medicare actually create inflammatory states that lead to disease your best way of linking those two worlds is with the disease model is with that pathophysiology and that’s why I’m kind of interested and I don’t know much about it this idea of psychoneuro Immunology that that that really the very same inflammatory state that occurs in the lungs of a person dying of covid is occurring in the brain of a person who’s been traumatized or has addiction or has schizophrenia it’s just happening at a much lower grade over years and so we don’t want to give up on the pathology model because it’s also been the most successful human endeavor ever it has doubled the human lifespan in a hundred years and so I understand that it’s that it’s an annoying model that it’s highly reductive no one likes to be reduced that it’s purely materialist and it doesn’t understand so much more doesn’t understand the Ecology of how disease plays out but there’s a lot to be mined there how does housing discrimination cause disease your best way to understand that is with a pathology model so I would like to talk about both of those things I would like to know more about both of those things I think that they’re actually much less divisible if you take a public health ecologic approach to disease so we have to change some things in this country if we want to be healthier I think we learned a lot of horrible things in the pandemic that we weren’t even willing to put on a mask to save the life of our neighbor’s kid who’s getting better from cancer that is deeply deeply pathologic that was not the problem in Canada right right everyone did it yeah that was not the problem in Hawaii the state that I used to live in they were public health model no problem very very strict we I think have some well pathological you know understandings of personal responsibility and freedom and my rights versus your rights and who should have power and who shouldn’t have power and that is what made us especially vulnerable to the opioid epidemic in ways that other countries weren’t quite as and so um don’t give up on the disease model just yet there’s there’s a lot I think that that it can help us understand but I completely admit that the disease model is just one model uh to view addiction and Recovery yeah absolutely beautifully stated I also got to get you to use the word psychoneuro right without having to bring it up as a question so right I feel really good as a host for arriving at that and getting that language in there um through that last question and um you know with that Kevin again as we’ve talked about the viewers out there they’re getting tuckered out probably the bottom of their popcorn bowl bucket now empty on the soda they gotta go in that regard and before we take this out is there anything that you would love to send to the viewers how to find you your books your DVDs any of that information
yes I I accidentally you know if you’ve got the blower I’ll do the leaves uh you know I’m very touched that people have found the film helpful if you want to email me and my email is easy it’s Kevin T McCauley me.com I can send you the links to the streaming versions that I keep on Vimeo because nobody has a DVD player anymore right and if those are helpful to you you at least even a little bit that that makes me very happy absolutely beautiful well you you know the DVD still exists because I pulled you into the meeting today and they held up there like that’s the guy makes a great coaster at least these days it has some value yeah well in that regard uh you know uh you know Dr Kevin McCully thank you so much for being on this episode again a senior fellow of The Meadows you know here at Peaks We Are The Meadows is a it’s not just a professional relationship it’s personal as well too we’ve sent several staff members out there myself included president founder Chris Burns our other founder you know Robert Patton our therapist we’ve all kind of pushed into especially during the pandemic uh into survivors weeks and similar programming out at The Meadows there’s so much work out there process addiction substance use disorders mental health adolescent programming Eating Disorders you’re in multiple States you guys are doing wonderful things uh and the senior fellows is just such a special cast in The Meadows program and I just want to honor that you know and having you on here fascinating what they’re doing out there in Wickenburg Arizona and their other locations so I’ll do the real for you in that regard but uh for everybody out there again this is Brandon Byrne chief executive officer Peaks recovery centers find us on the tick tocks the Facebooks the Instagrams all the things out there we’re out there YouTube channel and so forth for more episodes again your vision’s important to us your questions are important to us send us all that stuff finding Peaks at peaksrecovery.com and until next time so grateful that you all joined us and we’ll see you again soon with other special guests here on finding Peaks take care

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Episode 79The Holiday Season & RecoveryWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/p0kjQYs47J0Listen NowDescriptionOn this episode, we have one of our favorite guests back on the show, Madelyn Padilla, one of our Admissions Specialists. Our team opens up the conversation about the holiday season and how it can affect our mental health and recovery journeys.

Talking Points1. Madelyn shares how the holidays affect her 2. Expectations and comparisons 3. Resentment & envy with family members during the holidays 4. Being mindful and keeping the dialogue open 5. Buttoning Up 6. Parties during the holidays Quotes

”Shame comes up in the holidays because we are called to show up in some sort of way, and often times when we are struggling we can’t even show up for ourselves.”-Chris Burns, Founder

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 79 Transcriptswelcome to another episode of Finding Peaks uh I’m Jason friezma host today um joining me I’m just super grateful uh just two of my favorite people Chris Burns founder CEO C sorry company truck Your Leader cheerleader um Mountaineer what was an adventure an adventure athlete cheerleader yeah adventure adventure athlete headed to Ecuador next week to do some Adventure athleting yeah climbing getting over 20 000 feet big deal up there with all your matters and then Madeleine Padilla uh admissions specialist with Peaks uh it’s always a pleasure to have you on um and today we’re actually uh going to talk about the holidays um yes they’re coming up or at least kind of the big ones at the end of the year and as I was reflecting on kind of entering this holiday season I have been thinking about how um you know at Peaks like we really we used to be as substance use disorder treatment facility only and we’ve recently added mental health and really what we’ve panned the camera back to is uh we really are trying to help those who are suffering and um unfortunately as beautiful as the holidays can be and and what they can commemorate oftentimes suffering could come along uh with that and we were kind of talking before the show that you know it doesn’t just apply to Thanksgiving or or kind of the Christmas December type holidays it can apply to all the holidays frankly but um so I just kind of wanted to launch into this a little bit and and maybe Madeline started with you and just kind of ask you uh what do the holidays conjure up in you and and how did they affect you uh when you were kind of early in your own journey in your own process or maybe at the end of your uh struggling period too hmm
I think that when I was in in a really bad place like thinking about like oh Christmas is coming up yeah it was just oh this is going to be the hardest the hardest day for me to be in the situation I’m in for whatever reason it like puts more weight like every day is bad you know but like that makes it extra extra bad you know for whatever reason like because people are supposed to be doing stuff right what is it supposed to look like like it was not a Rockwell painting you know what I mean that’s not what was happening so I think people put a lot of weight on all holidays in early recovery too that also if I’m better it’s going to be a Rockwell right right it’s fine better I’m good right right I’m gonna have gifts to bring and I’m gonna have perfect family relationships and this is how this thing is going to play out and uh that still is not happening for me like four years later right we’re still still navigating still working on things and it’s great it’s just not how I thought it was supposed to be that that accompanying expectations right so yeah intense yeah and I think it’s also when our comparison is so high as well like our the the part of us that just is comparing Our Lives to people’s Facebook or Instagram lives um and all that does is create shame usually unfortunately and and amplify it and and I appreciate your point that like um just because like some of your circumstances have changed it hasn’t necessarily no it’s still hard yeah or something yeah I signed up to work that’s what you know like holidays are they’re they’re just tough they’re really tough and I I’ve challenged myself this year to get better at them like there’s something to tackle yeah you’re going to Ecuador I’m just trying to survive the holidays I’m just tackling this next week you know yeah I was laughing I was laughing with the friend I I said um this is the what did I tell her this is the medication for my um seasonal depression I said this is the medication for my regular depression and then it hit me I was like oh my God like here we are you know but um there’s good stuff too I have moments too where I’m like wow different setting than it was uh four years ago yeah yeah but really heating that expectation too because I think for a lot of people that we work with and even myself included I I mean I don’t know what came over me when I got into recovery but I thought I’d go home and like they would cut the ribbon and the Christmas tree would light up and everybody would cheer and it was just so disconnected but I saw it more clearly yes and so it what takes hold a lot for me in early recovery and I think a lot of the clients that we work with is shame and so shame comes up in the holidays because like I think we’re called to show up in some sort of way and we often times when we’re struggling we can’t show up for ourselves and so it’s like that day on the calendar we’re like holy crap yeah I gotta like get ready and put myself together and come in this environment and then probably feel a tremendous amount of energy in those family systems and so I think it’s on it’s on both sides and I was actually called this week somebody reached out to me a young man who came through here who was a chef and we spent a lot of time with him love this young man and anyway I’m getting coffee with him tomorrow afternoon virtually and I went back and looked through the pictures because it was just kind of a week of reflection for me and I remember he prepared a Thanksgiving feast in 2014 the first year Peaks ever came and I was sitting around this table with these nine young adults at the time and we all did a little prayer a little meditation and I could tell for the first time maybe in a long time on this holiday in 2014 and I could show you the picture we were all connected and rooted in recovery and it’s really really special so I think as much as holidays are hard in treatment I’m really called to a time when it’s actually not as hard and we have an opportunity to connect and dismiss that shame and actually experience something really really wholesome even if we are an inpatient treatment and I was called to that this week in reflection and talking to this young man who we spent a lot of time with and I think Rick when recovery shows up at holidays we have the opportunity day to counterbalance and potentially dismiss shame I think I think you’re exactly right and I Chris it’s interesting you say that because I I remember um you know as we’ve as we’ve grown as a company and like you know requiring kind of Clinical Services seven days a week when back in the day that was not the case necessarily because we weren’t a residential program um just like watching the clinical team and all the teams be excited to go work on Christmas or excited to go work on Thanksgiving um because I think it doesn’t hold all those expectations that you were talking about Madeline it holds this other space of like we just get to go have a meaningful day with people and and maybe sit with people and have a holiday experience that they haven’t had before where it isn’t tense or it isn’t filled with resentments oh you’re supposed to show up yeah yeah that’s exactly right um and the other the other thing uh that I have been thinking about um for the last couple weeks that I think ties into the holidays a little bit um was that is actually about resentments um obviously that’s a word that kind of gets bantered about uh in recovery circles um but I was I was listening to this um thing by brene Brown and she was talking about she was interviewing uh like an expert in emotions and just kind of she kind of just uh mentioned that oh and by the way resentments right that that comes out of like the anger tree of emotions very intuitive yeah and uh the guy was like absolutely not resentments come from Envy yeah okay and yeah I’ve been sitting and reflecting on that for a couple weeks now and actually sitting with the clinical team and reflecting on it like I can’t find a single time that hasn’t been true um that’s tough now we just makes bad video when we sit here I’m thinking about it holy moly this could be right oh my gosh because if you think about it right like if you know like if you’re holding resentments with your family or whatever like I’ve just been challenging people okay where’s the Indian right where do you envious of yeah well and it’s in this is even like um an image that comes up in film it comes up that you know the the man walks down the the dark Street and he looks to the right in the Christmas tree and the families around the Christmas tree right and that is what addiction is it’s that guy walking by that window sorry yeah but like that’s that feeling you are on the outside and you’re looking in and you want to be there so badly that you can’t right you know and I just think we we need to treat all of our clients like they they are supported and they are in that they’re no longer out on the window and sometimes you find yourself kind of drifting back out there even though you’re you’re in there because you feel like you deserve to be out there or you’re worth being out there on the street we just got to keep bringing guiding people back in it’s warm in here come back yeah that’s so true and I used to watch actually speaking of Christmas a film that starts on Christmas is a show and there’s this film with Nicholas Cage called The Family Man and it’s all about that and I remember watching that being like like I just want that yeah I want to be a part of that and I’m and I think when now that you’ve brought up this Envy thing as a kid growing up when the holidays actually weren’t this Kumbaya situation I found myself at dinner tables with friends and Connections in the community and be like holy crap I really Envy this yeah and so that I would judge and I would give resentful and say I don’t want it yep um and things like that and those are in some really crucially developmental years and then I get sober at 22 I don’t find my mental health but I get sober at 22 and I’m like I hate holidays I just hate them you know and now I’m like I got my family we spend time I don’t envy the holiday experience because I’ve been able to create one that fits our family like a glove and it’s really nice when you think you would turn that corner for you Chris
I would say you know the last few years I really had to see kind of the underpinnings of my behavior and really begin to explore why I have such hard edges like I hate things like now when I say it I’m like I don’t hate anything yeah you know I don’t want that and so I kind of got to do a personal house cleaning with like some hard edges that I had on my life and some non-negotiables some never Evers never enjoy holidays never do this don’t celebrate my birthday we don’t have family things and so I just had to see where that negative energy was rooted and for me it’s very clear uh 10 years old is when we stopped having these amazing holiday family things it’s when my grandfather is kind of I hate this word too but at the time in 1994 he was a patriarch of our family he meant everything to us and he would celebrate the holidays and they were amazing and then he got cancer and he died 12 months later and we just didn’t do it anymore and the whole family seemed to kind of have this resentment towards the holidays and so over the last few years I’ve been able to go back through and really clean up some of that resentment some of that grief some of that pain and some of that shame to allow me to see clearly what I want and what we want Cassidy and I collectively within our family system but it’s been you know 14 years of recovery and a lot of hurdles specifically during the holiday season to try and make sense of this and I guess the question becomes how do we like re-contextualize these symbols that are so emotionally weighted because they are their symbols you know like so okay so Christmas is a symbol of um he was the the center of your solar system right of your of your family and he’s gone like that’s a really dark city right and it’s like I don’t want to go to Grandma’s house
and then everything that comes along with that becomes becomes a smaller symbol and a symbol of that like yeah how do we help people recontextualize their symbols yeah I think it’s exploring it’s worth exploring conversations like this in times like this in Seasons like this and I don’t think we do it often enough when seasons change and holidays come up and what that might mean for some people I mean in fact since we’ve been sitting down having this conversation like this is a really great topic yeah um to really charge into for our mental health because it has an opportunity to get a little cold a little gloomy we’re talking about Seasons changing as well seasonal apps dark it’s dark it’s darker earlier yeah now we got these holidays coming in and so from a mental health perspective I think we need to be more clear about what this stuff brings up in these Seasons you know not just for us I mean clearly but for the clients that we have the opportunity to serve
well I think it to your point this conversation and and you know as Chris you were talking um like so many people suffer in silence too so many and Shane tells you you’re the only one right like the shame says you’re the worst yeah um and I and I know I’ve talked about on here before but like a lot of people feel they’re literally the worst human on the planet planet nine billion people like four billion people think they’re the worst one on it from what I can tell and like um and and when you feel like you’re the worst person on the planet or it doesn’t even feel worthwhile talking to anybody about what you’re struggling with or what you’re going through but um as we approach this holiday season I think conversations are important and if the holidays are special to you and you look forward to them and you have kind of you’ve you’ve done it like you’ve made what you would like you’ve um I think it’s important to remember that not everybody feels that way and to like get into conversations with people and like out and be curious about what comes up for them for the holidays it is about keeping the dialogue open everybody’s heard this that’s in either mental health or like substance use I don’t care what it is can’t you have one good day can’t you have one anyone give me one good day just give me one good day from family from Friends what like can you just just pull it together for this one thing and and so then that creates this idea right my my feelings or or me coming as I am is a problem for other people and so then that that exists even today if I say I I’m not having a good day and it’s Christmas can’t you give me this one date so we have to keep the dialogue so open like we get to have these we don’t have to we get to have these conversations with each other that’s how serious it is yeah I still gotta check that yeah that’s so interesting because because you bring up so that’s the other good point too like not only is our comparison up around the holidays yeah but also the expectation that we are performing at home that’s right you guys better just you’re gonna wear these clothes that you don’t like to wear you’re gonna right sit in somebody’s uncomfortable couch and or eat food that you don’t necessarily want to eat like perform right and uh into your point and I think that can start from a really young age too and like uh and not realizing how shaming it is too to tell somebody like can you just yeah pull it together for a day it wouldn’t be here just for one day it would be a good day not even a full day we’re talking like yeah yeah you just button it up yeah button it up right yeah it can be really tough hearing those messages in the holidays and um you know fortunately when it was like our whole family you know when we moved over to Grandpa’s house our family of origin needed to button it up yeah and so it was like get your crap together here guys everybody’s got to button it up and clean off all our faces and we’d go over there all right yeah you know so I love this topic because it brings up a greater conversation and I just love the brunette that’s all I hear the whole time like clear as kind clear as kind and I think this holiday season for me um I think we’re all in the in the midst of experiencing a tremendous amount of clarity and so I want to continue to deliver on that not only to the people that we love each other our families but to the clients down at Peaks recovery who are entrusting us in a very fragile season for a lot of people um and we don’t take that trust lightly here it means the world to us and with just 36 small inpatient beds in the team that we have we just have an army of loving people that want to walk with people throughout these really difficult Seasons yeah I’m going to commit to that I’d like to commit I’m going to commit to not not buttoning up yeah you know that that’s uh that’s a hard one to commit to but I think that’s where we make the change no one listens to a thing we say right and our clients sure don’t I never listen to you guys but I appreciate it right but they they’re watching yeah yeah and they’re listening yeah and I’m watching and I’m listening right so I don’t want to be that person that buttons up this year yeah it actually had a cool experience actually something happened to where I I’m not going to be going on a Christmas trip this year I was going to head to Canada something else came up and so I’m not going to be doing that this year and initially I was like I felt that the depth is some shame because of what happened but very quickly and very clearly and now that as I sit here I can see the opportunity to just spend time presently here in Colorado with my family with you all and the Peaks recovery crew which would be really really nice and now that I think about it I wouldn’t want to be leaving anyways hmm the other holiday factor that we haven’t really mentioned but I think it’s worth mentioning is that certainly there are holidays that also mean parties like New Year’s also is kind of on the back end of Christmas and like uh and and that leads to a little of that fear of missing out for sure like if I can’t be crazy or if I can’t do the things and in other holidays I mean we were talking before the show it’s not just these holidays like Halloween has its own Ridiculousness and um and Fourth of July yeah PTSD you’ve got Halloween is just oh my gosh I I gotta bring it up here because we were just talking about it but like you go into a spirit store a Halloween store or whatever and like you just now that I’m in recovery like you see all these stigmas that are like alive and well like they’ve got mental patience it’s a costume it’s a costume and that that really tells you where like mental mental health Falls in our priorities like collectively you know as a society that’s funny that’s okay right exactly they they don’t have a bomb costume they don’t have but yeah mental health that’s scary that terrifies people yeah and then yeah even Fourth of July and then you know I said just gun violence in in this country right like I hear fireworks going off and I’m like are we good here like is something yeah and that’s so sad and I I just think being aware of people’s previous experiences too um we we need to be aware of what our clients are are could potentially be going through all year round yeah even birthdays you know that’s funny you said that I’m gonna be the kind of guy that doesn’t care a person that doesn’t care about their birthday um yeah that’s a shame issue right there big time like that makes me so sad when people don’t I used to be like that it’s just another day
I’m like it’s my birthday
like um that’s a day to honor yourself you know that’s cool yeah it’s not selfish I do think too to your guys’s point is like you know these party holidays right yeah and I got you know we got to recovery Yong 22 years old a year after I could legally drink good thing I’ve been drinking for 10 years so it’s but you know I was really worried as a young adult like I’m gonna miss out on these opportunities and I just want to like tell the viewers that differently than what I was taught they would say yeah Chris you’re going to miss out on those you’re going to come to a meeting I’m like okay okay cool it’s not so bad we’ll have an AAA party it’ll be great I actually don’t think you have to miss out on the party I think this is a season of life and I think this is a reinvestment in our self-worth yeah right and and while we’re reinvesting in our self-worth and until we find it I think it makes sense for a season to pull out of some of that intensity and some of those parties but you guys very clearly I go to the parties um I have a good time I don’t go all the time and I don’t stay really late because that’s just not what my eco it doesn’t fit my ecosystem I have a plan in the morning to go for a run and get some sun on my face you gotta have it yeah and and then you start you start craving more you want you want more from people and when someone if I’m encountering someone that’s not emotionally present maybe they’ve had one too many too many you know I can feel that and I’m like this is not a good convo for me I need more I need more out of this I’m gonna I’m gonna go call yeah typically someone who Peaks you know I it’s just doesn’t cut it you know and and you kind of feel that hollowness and and that speaks to everyone stressed out during the holidays because even people maybe without a substance use issue they’re loosening up a little bit because they’re under tremendous stress we’re all in this together you know I I think that’s that’s something to consider yeah yeah I expect more than that see I like that reinvestment in my self-worth that I am deserving of emotional presence all the time yeah and it’s beautiful then that’s what you find is like you actually don’t and I hate to say this because I don’t want to like but the party’s seen it just the depth and weight there’s there’s not a lot of connection when we get into recovery we get to have you come into Peaks your first week I mean you’re having conversations yeah like you’ve never had with individuals and to go out into a bar and be like you want to shoot some pool yeah you know it just feels almost nonsensical it does the admission oh God okay the admissions team Angela’s been on here Chris has been where’s and Jake’s part of this too we’re all sitting there we’re like What are some normal questions um to ask on a date like you know we’re talking about it what could we do and then like immediately it’s like how do you feel about human suffering like what is humanity
guys this is not normal we gotta tone it down and then I was thinking about that no way I’m not I’m not gonna tell them that those are the questions that matter to me and if they don’t matter to someone else then that’s good that’s just it’s rejection is God’s protection we just move on you know like I don’t know I love that first date if I ever to go back into that I’ll be like yeah first day yeah my party talk my Chit Chat that’s that’s what it is I’m like how’s your shame today you know like that’s so funny you say that Madeline just before we I came over here to film I was in supervision with the clinician and she had this list of questions about trauma to ask your clients and what are the questions like there were a bunch of questions I just wanted to ask my friends like what was what was your biggest strength as a child yeah that’s so good question Jason because it opens up all these doors right and that’s what we’re always you know that’s what relationships are they’re just opening doors all the time walking through them and then you open another door and you walk through that door and like yeah those are the questions give me that list later I I will actually it was actually maybe I need for trauma-based questions they were really inviting and all of that um oh I love that that’s awesome yeah it’s almost like a game you could play yes that seems like a good time because again that seems like a good time because we’re in the authenticity sphere well to bring it back to the holidays and to kind of wrap up this episode like you can tell this is what we crave and what what I hear you saying too is like you don’t like any fake aspect of a holiday is very triggering and I think that makes a ton of sense and I think I I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of people don’t even realize that they just are like I don’t know why I dread going to Grandma’s house for Thanksgiving but I do yeah and and I think you’ve seen like you’ve done your work to say there’s pieces of if I enter into a holiday and I can’t be me or people aren’t being themselves it’s not for me and it’s not celebratory and I think that makes a ton of sense um I really appreciate you guys joining me and I I do want to look at the camera and say if you are suffering in this holiday season um don’t suffer in silence and don’t suffer Alone um if you’re telling yourself you’re alone and nobody can relate to you and nobody has any idea how you feel um that’s a sign that you got to talk to somebody and I guarantee you’re not alone and uh I’m going to finish this with a quote from brene Brown the two most powerful words in the English language are often me too if you can just find somebody that you can share that that has walked in similar shoes than you you don’t have to carry your burdens alone so um with that uh I don’t uh we will end this holiday episode again thank you guys for joining us um please uh follow us on Instagram Chris we got a bunch of likes on something it looked really nice yeah we had some good stuff we’re really getting our content dialed in on the inside on the gram um follow us on Facebook if you’re my age Facebook uh or you can uh listen to us on on Apple podcast Spotify as well um and uh and that’s it have a great one

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Episode 78Forward Thinking Treatment ModalitiesWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/9jfgXOUZY5cListen NowDescriptionOn this forward-thinking episode, we have multiple special guests, Dana Lerman, MD & Scott Bienenfeld, MD, co-owners and founders of Skylight Psychedelics, Social Worker & Journalist Joe Schrank, as well as Clinician Kevin Franciotti, LAC. We highlight the evidence-based yet controversial treatment modalities of ketamine, psychedelics, and plant-based medicines and the potential these new modern interventions hold. The current mental health and addiction treatment landscape is not moving the dial on these saddening epidemics. Though, with conversations like these and widening our scope of new medicalized frameworks, we can begin to truly help more individuals lead intentional lives and expand our nation’s well-being.

Talking Points1. How did Skylight Psychadelics come to be? 2. Joe Schrank’s take on expanding recovery services 3. Autonomy and treatment 4. Inner-healing Intelligence 5. Input from Kevin as a counselor on the front lines 6. Cultural acceptance 7. Deep-rooted trauma and ketamine treatment 8. It is not a panacea Quotes

”The definitional authority of recovery lies with the individual, people get to say what their recovery is. So when these things became more prevalent with the use of psychedelics or plant-based medicines, the backlash in the current paradigm is ‘that’s not recovery’. And my response is, maybe it’s not your recovery. But recovery is a positive change and improvements. There are alot of we can look at a life comprehensively and determine if somebody is doing better… So expanding the idea of what recovery is critical because we have been doing the same thing for decades, and it’s gotten nowhere. So why not try these medicines, especially if it is medicalized.”-Joe Shrank – Social Worker & Journalist

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 78 Transcriptshello everyone my name is Brandon Burns welcome back to a very special episode of Finding Peaks again Brandon’s chief executive officer Peaks recovery centers for all the folks out there grab your popcorn grab your soda because we’re about to have another excellent show here at finding Peaks we just recently did an episode with uh Kevin frenchiotti again to nailed it nailed it I don’t have to do it I don’t think I have to do the bio this time but excited for him to be with me kind of in the co-host chair today uh joined by Scott being enfeld bean and Feld Dr Scott beanenfeld in that regard thanks again man that is that is going to be challenging me for the rest of time we know each other
Dr B’s good with me as well too uh and again uh or not again and also we have uh Dr uh Dana Lerman as well too joining us on the show and uh Joe shrank as I understand his last name in that regard a journalist writer very creative very thoughtful opinionated is what I’m learning about him as well too and I love it welcome to this show Joe and in that regard I kind of just want to let you guys starting with uh you Dr B uh describing kind of you know what those titles and letters mean and where you’re joining us from sure so MD stands for Shaman no just kidding um it’s medical doctor uh although that would be awesome I’m not I’m not minimizing that at all that would be amazing um uh so Dr lehrman and I are both Physicians uh Joe schrank is a social worker Kevin licensed addiction counselor correct right okay and uh so Dr lehrman and I are the co-founders of co-owners co-medical directors of Skylight psychedelics um and we are a company that is medically based and we really do two main things um we prescribe ketamine which is a dissociative anesthetic psychedelic
medication it’s not a classic psychedelic we’re going to lump it in there today I think maybe we’ll parse out um to treat all sorts of um mental health disorders and addiction uh depression PTSD severe anxiety addictive disorders all sorts of things and so we prescribe that nationally to patients and clients to be used in their therapist’s office and we also train therapists uh Nationwide to be able to implement this modality in their offices um and Dr lehrman and I joined forces many months ago and we’ve been um kind of you know spreading the gospel about this and one of the big uh attractions turns out to be forward-thinking addiction centers you know that want to try to implement this the research is starting to come out and it’s clear that medications like ketamine and other psychedelics um can really be helpful for this so thanks for having us yeah absolutely appreciate that introduction and and Joe you want to give it a little bit of to the viewers out there where you’re coming from and how you’re joining us today
yeah I’m Jose rank I’m a social worker by training I’m also a journalist I founded the fix.com which is now defunct long story um but you know I always thought media never really gets this particular issue of addiction recovery drug use drug policy they never really get it right so that’s why we did that I’ve worked with Dr B for many years in a bunch of different capacities and crisis management and that kind of thing like getting people to treatment and then following them and maintaining their care
um and I make beautiful very big proponent of expanding the tent of recovery beautiful well I appreciate everybody’s introduction insights excited to have everybody on here let’s get wild with it you know and in regards to uh ketamine assisted therapy you know uh starting with any of the docs on the screen here you know uh what led you to this uh as and as I know uh both of you have different backgrounds and training experiences from that MD level but you know how did you guys come together how did Skylake psychedelics uh come to be in that regard yeah that’s a great thing I like this story um so I actually am a board certified internal medicine and infectious disease and I was a covid doctor on the front lines of coronavirus and um during the pandemic I had my own covid consulting company the covid consultants and we were selling tests Nationwide and doing business risk mitigation helping companies stay open and through that process I received a medical license in in all 50 states also through that process I was severely uh burnt out and suffering from my own uh my own personal struggles as a human being and then add in a pandemic and I was in trouble so I actually found myself in the middle of the pandemic and an Ayahuasca retreat in Costa Rica
releases coming back from that experience I have completely changed gears and went into the field of cydelic medicine I did a year-long training course in psychedelics as a therapy and um I was realizing that it’s the wild west out there with ketamine and ketamine now you can go online and order a prescription to send right to your doorstep and no one’s monitoring you and you’re just having these big experiences by yourself and so I realized that it was important to really Loop in people’s therapists
in just uh treatment modality so I decided that I was going to look for a partner and my sister is a social worker and she mentions Scott and Scott he’s already said but he is a pretty impressive background being trained in Psychiatry addiction Psychiatry forensic psychiatry um and you know has really been in the ketamine space for several years so I had one phone call with Scott and by the end of phone call we this was maybe not even an hour-long phone call but after at the end of that hour um we were partners and
have been really moving forward with uh launching Skylight psychedelics which has been pretty successful to date so far getting ketamine in an affordable way to people and getting their therapists trained also in an affordable way and it’s been really the most rewarding thing that I’ve ever done in my entire career as a physician because as an infectious disease provider you have this bag of tools and it has a lot of different really strong medicines but not medicines that access people’s root traumas and okay that’s what Academy does and so people debate all the time whether or not ketamine is a classic psychedelic uh to me it is and psychedelic the word really means mind manifesting and ketamine definitely does that so um that’s really the back story of how Scarlet psychedelics was formed and and what we’re doing and how I got here yeah no beautiful uh you know Dr B because I’m still trying to get into my brain here of how to fully pronounce that name so I’m gonna stick with Dr B because that that feels great uh do you want to add a little bit of insights into it from your own Journey up until you know kind of um you know arriving at Sky like psychedelics yeah absolutely um right my initial hack coming out of residency and Psychiatry was forensic psychiatry I started my career working in the prison system I used to work at sing running a unit of um the most severely mentally ill inmates coming back to the community and we were working on ways to prevent them from coming back to get incarcerated again and you know wouldn’t you know the number one reason people go back to jail is substance abuse even if they have severe mental illness right and so I got kind of very interested in addiction medicine that way got board certified in it and I’ve been working in it for over 20 years I’ve worked with Joe schrank for a long time who actually probably taught me more about the addiction space than any textbook so thank you Joe about like the realities of kind of what it’s like out there in the world not just in the doctor’s office about um I don’t know maybe like six or seven years ago I was tapped by an anesthesiologist who was working with ketamine in downtown Manhattan using IV ketamine primarily and intramuscular and tell me listen you know all my patients get off their antidepressants like use it to treat pain I’m looking for a psychiatrist you want to check this out ketamine started popping up in the psychiatric literature really around the year 2000 but it got really hot like kind of the mid 2000s so I remember reading all these papers thinking wow ketamine treating depression and PTSD that’s really cool but I’ll never do that because I’m a psychiatrist in my office in Upper West Side of Manhattan um so long story short I wound up kind of going down there and I never looked I brought a bunch of my patients down there and watched this and you know the next thing I know I was working in a Surgis Center doing intravenous ketamine sessions with patients like tons of them and I wound up treating a lot of people with substance abuse disorders because people with addiction almost always suffer from severe underlying mental health issues maybe it’s trauma mood disorders anxiety bipolar disorder whatever the case may be and I it was very scary at first because I’m thinking oh my God I’m going to treat these patients with a potentially addictive substance that we’ve now come to understand ketamine actually is really not an addictive substance there are people who abuse it for sure but by and large ketamine puts the brakes on addiction more than anything else and I saw how effectively how rapidly it was treating these underlying mental health disorders and getting people better getting people to return to function like really quickly like in a matter of days to weeks and every case is different but I was really Blown Away by it I got very deep into working with this medication um and then you know covet happened and everything kind of got separated and I wound up just kind of working on my own in my practice you know with a nurse practitioner we would do the IV ketamine surgeons I still do it um you know then Dr lamman you know Dana found me and and we kind of connected that way but uh so that’s kind of my journey through it I found that you know taught kind of to Dana’s Point um you know treating it addiction Joe can speak to this better than anybody um so much of it it’s really difficult it’s a really hard profession being an addiction medicine doctor because people it’s a constantly relapsing remitting disease there’s a lot of stigma attached to it there’s so much controversy between jujit do 12 steps you should not are there underlying medical problems is it biological diseases it’s spiritual I mean all these things you know you don’t have these discussions about asthma right or like um or strep throat right you give the penicillin and it’s done um and so uh so it’s been amazing but it’s not easy and and ketamine is like one of these tools in the toolbox that really is is a game changer here um you know in terms of treating a lot of different things and and again everything’s Case by case nothing’s a Panacea perfect for everybody for every situation but um it’s been a really interesting Journey so far for sure love it appreciate all those insights and then you know from from your perspective Joe and I I would I suppose I missed an opportunity to share this with you on the front end uh you know but one of our vision here at uh Peaks recovery centers as an inpatient dual diagnosis facility here in Colorado is to disrupt an industry through quality of care and I’m recognizing more and more that disruption is is really challenging and that’s what entices me so much about these medications the other plant-based medicines that are within proposition 122 here on the ballot here in the state of Colorado and you know you seem like a disrupter in that regard Joe and so I want to bring you into the fold in that way and you know just share with us your passion around you know that concept of expanding recovery Journeys well um yeah I guess you could say disruptor I’m not sure that’s what most people would say they might say something else but um you know they can have their feelings about it look I was always and I I I’ve taken certain things to Heart in educational settings one of them being you know Jesuit High School men for others like I thought they were Syracuse I thought they meant that and so that’s you know I mean part of the reason I became a social worker social work is really very different than the accepted Paradigm of what recovery is and I think that that’s been one of the conflicts that I’ve had um over the years because you know in social work you meet the client where the client exists you outline their particular options and support their decision even if you don’t just even if you disagree with their decision you don’t quit on people you don’t say things like you’re not ready and come back when we when you know you have no teeth you know keep using keep using meth just keep smoking that you know there’s so it’s it’s always been very much a conflict I’m a recovering person myself I I go to AAA I’m an AAA dude I responded well to it um I responded well to it as a young guy um it’s been good for me over the years but I’m not an Evangelical about anything you know and I’m not an Evangelical about recovery I think that one of the big problems that we have in recovery is knowing seems to be able to agree upon what success is um so in other words people who have extinguished their use of potentially life-threatening drugs in a recreational setting to me that’s like that’s a Triumph but that might include that they still use cannabis and I don’t have any sort of moralistic problems with that but the rehab industrial complex does and you know they bang their hat on the recidivism the profit margin is in Failure like the diet industry so it’s a really big problem when you want to stand up at recovery conferences and say these things but I mean that’s fine it’s okay I don’t I don’t really have any negative associations with what people think about me per se but my personal view is that the definitional authority of recovery lies with the individual that people get to say what is their recovery if their recovery is harm reduction to me um if an IV heroin user says I’m committing to using only clean needles that’s how far I can go right now
to me that’s their recovery so when these things became more prevalent with use of uh psychedelics or plant-based medicines or whatever the backlash in the current Paradise that’s not recovery and my response is maybe it’s not your recovery but you know recovery is positive change recovery is um improvements you know there’s a lot of different ways that we could look at a life from a comprehensive way and determine if somebody is doing better in life and just quickly as an example I had this client who was um kind of old and crusty pretty much just drinking himself to death alone in this big house in L.A and um the family had no idea what to do he was inebriated and fell at Christmas and knocked over the baby high chair you know all the big family drama and so they took him to Betty Ford and he walked out he was like I’m not going through those meetings and anyway so the short version of the story is you know I had a hard to harvest them and I just said bottle I like you but no one else really does and so you have some choices in life and one of the choices is that you die alone in this house and your house he provides your body after you have some kind of horrible alcoholic death so we got the Scotch bottle away from him and got him a vape pen his blood pressure dropped he lost 20 pounds he agreed to uh move into a condo and have help we taught him the miracle of uber um instead of driving and all I heard from the eight people is he’s not sober like no [ __ ] man he loves that vape pen he’s not sober yeah you’re right you got me you got me there but so I think that trying to say is our 78 year old friend Bob in recovery yeah I think he is does he benefit from his use of cannabis without question does he benefit from extinguishing use of alcohol without question and so so expanding the idea of what recovery is is really critical because we’ve been doing the same thing for decades and it goes nowhere the death rate is is higher than ever the overdose rate is higher than ever the um and so why not use these things especially when they’re medicalized you know I’m a big proponent of of Physicians administering medicine um you know that’s one of the reasons I like these guys they are license credential board certified Physicians so it’s not I don’t know I think people hear oh you can use psychedel I think they hear like San Francisco hippies and Golden Gate Park or that they’re going to a rave you know it’s like no that’s not what it is maybe it’s a branding issue I don’t know yeah well that’s what we’re doing here today Joe is we’re trying to get the brand correct in that regard and I and you know I appreciate all those insights and especially around the Cannabis recovery Journey there I think that’s one of those things we’re trying to meet in real time as a challenge at you know Peaks recovery centers we’re not trying to influence any particular path or adopt or you know State wholeheartedly this is the way we think you should go but um you know if somebody is an IV heroin user and at the end of the day part of the recovery Journey means picking up a vape pen of that sorts and continuing forward but they never touched that event at the bit you know uh the IV heroin use again to us I mean I want to couch that with you and likewise as a positive outcome in direct National and it really obtains that autonomy that you know Kevin and I really got to talk about on just the prior episode to joining this around there are so many restrictive measures from the rooms all the way to addiction treatment centers uh you know psychiatrists all that sort of stuff and it seems like the most disruptive thing that we’ve got to really get right you know moving forward is that sense of autonomy the autonomy aspect is the empowerment and if clean needles is all that’s being is taken to be empowerment for the individual I think we start there from a harm reduction model and then when that person is you know Finds A New Path towards you know their journey through that autonomous lens we’re right there as social workers therapists doctors and so forth to nurture that next step in the journey and by removing the coercion in my experience at least for individuals who come to Peaks it’s a there’s a difference between you know mom and dad dropping Johnny off you know with the luggage bag and saying deal with it versus like Johnny getting out of the car being like I’m ready to do this right you get two incredibly different outcomes namely when uh you know when somebody is not convinced or does not want to be there you know in that regard at the end of the day you spend what is 30 to 45 days kind of outside of the clinical curriculum trying to just get through that sort of you know we’ll call it a little tea trauma experience in that moment and so I think that’s what we get back in a really big way around these plant-based medicines around ketamine interventions and so forth and I just love to hear the reverence certainly from all three of you and Kevin on the prior episode about how this is working in regards to the medications and so you know through that lens of autonomy you know question back to the docs uh in that regard you know what are you seeing from a patient standpoint are you seeing a lot of individuals who came in and said man I’ve been told to do all of these other things I was fortunate when I did that now I have this you know in front of me and you guys seem open to the direction post this intervention what are you seeing on behalf of your patient demographic as they walk into your office in that sense
oh totally I think that’s absolutely what we see and you know listen I think that part of it is that you know look addiction like hardcore addiction is trauma right whether it caused the addiction or it’s the addiction itself and everything that happens or the interpersonal relationships there is so much trauma around this disease you know it’s probably the rule um and one of the things is that I think that when people find their way to psychedelics and find their way to ketamine therapy or whatever it is um it really is a kind of a new open pathway and and a lot of a lot of our patients um kind of show up uh as you know listen this is this is mine you know I’m owning this they’re not being coerced into their um into their treatment um and they’re really able to and Dr lehrman can really speak to this you know these medications like they really do get at the root kind of cause of of what’s going on they might not heal it instantaneously and we would like to believe that it does but it’s certainly as as Dr lamman has really kind of talked about a lot it shines the light on and maybe that’s kind of current things that might be distant past trauma or whatever but it’s kind of very open honest process which can be really hard by the way it’s not you know unicorns and rainbows all the time I mean psychedelic treatment is can be intense it can also be wonderful it’s a lot a lot that goes on um but I think that it’s really you know people are kind of coming to it
with different philosophies coming in but almost always on the other side of it is people also they don’t ever regret I mean it’s always like wow this is this is really thank God I found this you know and you can see you can just Google like psychedelics and depression I don’t tell people to Google anything in Edison it’s the dumbest thing you can do as a doctor because 50 because you have cancer and you’re done exactly but in this realm actually it’s like 98 of of the stories are amazing and they’re true you know it’s like it’s pretty crazy um and so the research is really happening there’s organizations that are really supporting it um and we’re here you know not only along for this ride but we’re trying to really spearhead it one of the things we’re trying to do with skylight psychedelics is like really have people be able to gain access to this from both training professional side the licensed providers but also the patients right there at least some Financial barriers things like that we’re trying to democratize too and really kind of give people a chance at this
yeah totally Dr Lerman can I have something yeah thank you you read my mind um yeah I know this is one of my passions about psychedelics because I feel like this is psychedelic medicine and that um a lot of people don’t understand that the way psychedelics really work we could talk about all the neurotransmitters and all the neurogenesis and neuroplasticity but the way that they really work is that they are the ultimate concierge doctor right they are the ultimate concierge doctor because they are you and so when you eat psychedelic medicine or when you take psychedelic medicine you are allowing access to your own inner healing intelligence right this is not stuff that we have been taught in medical school we have not been taught this growing up I mean I teach my kids this now but this is the language language that we’ve never really heard before right what the hell is an inner healing intelligence right you’re crazy you’re cuckoo but it’s an inner healer that every single person has and our society does not um unfortunately get behind that idea right but psychedelics are basically we all have this I’m sure many people on this call have heard me say this before but we all have the sack of rocks that we carry around right and we’re all kind of lugging this saccharox around and some of us have big boulders in there and all different size rocks and a lot of times you can go to therapy and throw out a few Pebbles a few bigger rocks but oftentimes you still have this big sack that you carry around and the way that I like to look at psychedelics is that they are the key to opening that sack and really allowing you to just take a big look inside and start working through all the things right and that’s just how they work they allow you access to what is in your luggage right and so there’s nothing else that does that right all these ssris all this conventional Western medicine I mean those medicines work 30 of the time for people with depression and and anxiety and whatnot I mean these medicines
and conventional standards rehab these things don’t work so it’s time to actually try something that works and you know what I like to think of western western medicine approaches listen sometimes they’re helpful for people and it’s not always all bad and I don’t try to be an absolutist about it but it really seems like Western medicines try to keep people in this kind of window of not feeling too great and not feeling too terrible but you’re just in this window and you sweep your [ __ ] under a rug and you don’t ever look at it and you’re just in this space right psychedelics it’s okay to be really happy and it’s okay to be feel something like we are not feeling as a society like it isn’t psychedelics allows us to get in touch with our root stuff look at it work through it process it for the first time and then move through it yeah it’s beaut yes because I think it’s important to real access you know people with addiction I know Scott says not all people have a trauma or something I would I would say probably honestly if it’s not 100 it’s 99.99 of people who have addiction they got there because of something right and they may not even know what it is but psychedelics will surely show you what what happened at some point right it’s not what’s wrong with you anymore it’s what happened to you yeah I think one of the most interesting things about the Psychedelic realm in medicine that’s kind of emerging is that in a lot of ways and no other medication can really do this it is like Psychotherapy and a pill in a weird way right like there is like it happens whether you have like a therapist there or not but you definitely want to have somebody there right because um it can be pretty funky and that’s where we get into this idea called integration right which is where you take all the intense experiences and then you have somebody help you kind of kind of you know work it into your life and understand it and contextualize everything um but really there and listen there are plenty of medications prescribed right look you know psychedelics like psilocide but these things are schedule one they’re classified as schedule one drugs right no medical value and addictive right which they’re neither right we know we know that they’re not but there are tons of psychiatric and other medications that are much lower schedules legal prescribable time that are that will kill you in overdose right that are that are dangerous they’re super addictive and psychoactive and everything like that um so I think this field is really I mean there there is like a sea change Happening Here definitely yeah I mean that’s my absolute hope uh you know that to me this is this is a conversation about innovation in an industry where like the medications 30 of the time it works to sit in a group circle and you know communicate you know a clinical curriculum or a medical curriculum in that regard but generally speaking uh and and I’ve shared this on past podcast episodes here at Peaks Vista research contradiction they’re the third party uh addiction treatment center outcomes uh Center that we use for our outcomes at Peaks and they’ve been on the show talking about for the last 30 years our outcomes have remained flat at 33 or lower and so this invites in an opportunity to really expand on that reduce some of the restrictive measures of our industry and uh insert autonomy that I think is going to get us a bit further uh as far as outcomes goes uh overall or more of appreciation and more of a community awareness around what resources are actually accessible to somebody’s Wellness at the end of the day and before I dive into a few more I have tons of questions that are I’m getting curious about but I want to see Kevin if you had anything like top of mind that you wanted to throw at the screen here I mean yeah for now it seems a lot of what we’ve been talking about is the promising kind of paradigm shift that psychedelics assisted therapies are representing not only in the inherent quality of the healing potential of psychedelics but also in the therapeutic model the theory behind what elicits change and this idea of the inner healing intelligence that Dr lehrman spelled out Joe’s encouragement for community support and and Dr B uh just just talking about the role of integration therapy the role of creating a therapeutic container around it and as a practitioner as a as a counselor working with people experiencing non-ordinary States and working with them before and after you know I love that analogy of the of the bag of rocks and you know do we want a person to be confronted with giant Boulders that they’ve been carrying alone you know as a practitioner I feel like I’m standing over their shoulder with the flashlight kind of helping like oh what should we look at now what does it describe that to me how can we assess this together and process it in real time and then implementing behavioral changes on the other side so what what Joe is talking about is so important to have that community resource that supportive structure because at the end of the day you know we have a couple hours a week at Best of patient contact time and folks are going to go back to their existing resources their families their communities their Church groups their spirit virtual peer support networks and we we really need to update the Paradigm and educate people on how to support this new therapeutic model which is is so important so that’s that’s kind of what I’m operating at right now and Joe I’m kind of interested in you know you talk about a big umbrella and you know several months ago we talked about uh the on your podcast the update around acceptance of people using psychedelics as tools for integration in in recovery settings and one way or another there’s there’s going to have to be a grappling with this reality that people for whatever reason whether they’re stabilized and secure in their relationship with substances in an abstinence-based model in a harm reduction model and yet they’re still struggling with other things that they seek healing through with psychedelics how is the community going to need to Grapple around these people to support them in the same way that you’ve discovered with cannabis
well look I mean I’m not sure that there is a robust community of people who are supporting cannabis use in the context of recovery it’s growing certainly in Los Angeles um you know we’ve seen more and more of that I think that Community is one of the things that helps all areas of mental health right one one way or another you know the ancient Greeks said be not idle be not allowed and so in other words do something and do it with somebody so my personal feeling is that all humans deserve to have their tribe and to be safe and comfortable in however that looks they don’t deserve um to be lambasted or shamed because they’re recovering in a way that’s different than the individual who has announced to the world that they’re the standard of recovery so in other words you know when a celebrity comes out um
Dan levod came out and said she’s Cali sober that she uses cannabis massive backlash from people she’s not sober she’s going to relapse she’s going to do this she’s gonna do that I was like you know but how do we know it’s not abstinence that leads people to relapse because so many people who attempt abstinence return to their previous pattern of self-harming drug use so maybe abstinence is what’s doing it um you know she’s a young woman she gets to try on hats she gets to see what’s going to be right for her uh so I think it’s still it’s got a long way to go before there are certain systems that I think help
um cultural acceptance one of them would be the VA you know I think that it’s the largest Health Care system in America it has really robust capacities for research it has a captive population I think if the VA started using psychedelic medications which would help those guys tremendously and was vocal about it and had some kind of continuing care support system whether it’s mutual Aid or recreational interactions whatever it is that would go a long way Sports changes the culture right music changes the culture so those kinds of larger systems that are that would Embrace alternatives to really what is the Christian rights Stranglehold on recovery because it’s based on this act of redemption that there’s nothing there’s not a doctor there’s not a medicine there’s only another recovering person in an act of Providence that can help you nothing else can help you and Americans love that they love half of America thinks gay marriage causes hurricanes so you know I don’t know how we’re gonna move past those ideas other than to say um that we’re not doing very well with addiction like I don’t see how you know especially in AAA we’re one of the the big tenants is if nothing changes nothing changes you know if you always do what you’ve always done you’re always going to get what you’ve always got right so okay if we always only send people to AAA we will have continued growing death rates and a population of people you know the truth of the matter is very few people respond to AAA um certainly not enough to make it the only thing that’s offered to somebody and you know and and I’ll stop but let me ask the doctors if you two were oncologists and you were in remission from cancer could you say well there are four options but we only use radiation because I used radiation and that’s how my cancer got better and if you don’t do what I did you’re not really improving your cancer but yeah that’s a crazy way to treat any problem much less a medical problem okay can I jump in with an analogy here in medical analogy so as infectious disease physician um we get patients who come in and have bacteria in their bloodstream and we usually trade place it back to a certain source and sometimes we get patients who come in who have repeated what we call bacteremia bacteria and bloodstream and the reason why they get it is because there’s some deep seated infections somewhere in their body that we are not treating with our regular duration of antibiotics and we need to go and get to the source of the of the bacteria in the bloodstream okay I would make the argument that we fail at treating addiction because you don’t get to the source of why that person is it right that is and that is the greatest argument for the introduction of psychedelics into the addiction space right because you have why would anyone think that it’s going to go away if you don’t get to the root of the stuff right the question is is in therapy sessions and in all these different things that you’re doing in rehab are you actually getting to the source of the issue many people don’t even know their problem many people are dealing with such repressed trauma that happen and it takes so much work to get to that root of that problem right and psychedelics they’re like a missile right and and jumping on that analogy you know in terms of why it is effective why ketamine is effective in this regard is because the deep-seated trauma that people are experiencing you know human beings have a reflex to deal with trauma it’s all denial right like we don’t want to deal with it and and if we start to deal with it we go into fight or flight mode our adrenal glands start pumping right the adrenaline flows and every and people get anxious it’s hard and that’s that’s normal I mean that’s it’s not healthy um but dealing with trauma often results in people feeling overwhelmed by emotion and it’s too hard to go there people get triggered all sorts of things one of the things that and if you ever observe a ketamine session you’re bound to see this is it it it’s called a dissociative anesthetic partially because it dissociates different parts of the brain from each other that normally communicate very tightly and one of those the frontal part of the brain which the deep emotional parts of the brain right so when people start thinking about their trauma the emotions start just exploding and they can’t deal with it right it’s like a wave of neurotransmitters panic attacks ensue it’s too much it’s like nope I’m not I can’t go there and what ketamine does by dissociating that it allows a sort of thinking frontal part of the brain to be separate from that kind of that emotional Olympic system the Deep part of the brain that that’s exerting these feelings so people can actually like
see the traumatic event and sort of experience it not even with with prompting right it happens sometimes spontaneously right but without that fight or flight that adrenal gland overload that prevents it in other in other modalities and it happens on its own it’s incredible when I first brought patients down to to do this treatment they were talking about traumas and things that happened in their past I never even knew about um that they never talked about and it was fascinating to watch people just kind of get to this place of frequently expressing acceptance forgiveness and it’s not Amnesia this is not it doesn’t wipe your slate clean right this isn’t like we take the trauma we erase it it’s quite the opposite as as Dana talks about shines a light on it and but but people can sometimes and I’m not saying like people are cured instantly and this can be a protracted long process and everybody’s different and all traumas are different and degrees of trauma and all of that but in many cases ketamine has the ability to do that and it’s fascinating and it kind of allows people to kind of like have a process like kind of get some of the poison out the emotional poison that’s associated with it and and you know and I think that’s a big part of why we’ve seen success totally hey and and Joe you you stole my thunder man I’m I’m so big on like you know when I think of disruption of this industry I think about all the independent philosophies that exist and I used in the past episode with Kevin you can review it with the reviewers in the background on you know you walk into a broke you know an emergency room with a broken arm what would it be like for the position to be like hey I have a new idea about how to heal this I’m gonna I’m gonna I’m gonna make sure it’s you know the bones are mended and all that sort of thing but I’m not going to put a cast on because you know what I got well without a cast because I was you know in some off country or whatever and I didn’t have access to this but this is how it it seems so fundamentally absurd to insert philosophies within the general practices of medicine uh and and that in the way that we know it and yet we do that within substance use disorders and even at um even though it’s a little bit more sutured up not to play on medical words here on the the mental health professional side of things I think they get a little bit more right it’s more wrapped around well that’s not even entirely true I guess ultimately what I want to say though is it’s interesting in these aspects of Behavioral Healthcare Behavioral Healthcare medicine clinical interventions and so forth we want to state that it ought to be in this sort of way or use some moral framework or philosophy at the end of the day and insist on that as a path and so you stole it from me Joe I guess I just wanted to give it back that we’re in alignment in that way it’s just one of those things where I don’t think that moral posturing has any place in in the care of people who are trying to improve their lives with either emotionally or their mental health or their substance misuse issues and there is a tremendous amount of moral shame based you know it’s actually the the one of the more arrogant things to tell people you’re doing it wrong and you could be me but you you have to do it like me um you know it’s a very strange way to try to align with people uh is to impose that kind of thing on it and I I don’t know I’ve never you know I mean we hear all the time evictions of disease all right well then why aren’t they treated like patients with the standard of care why are they treated like criminals um and why are we brow beating them into some specific way because really what that total abstinence modality is designed to do is to make the people around them feel better no it’s not really designed to help the individual because their that abstence might be their best play Maybe um but it might not the truth of the matter is is I’m not sure that everybody everybody universally should be abstinent from all substance use but it makes the the culture like parents want to hear total abstinence and wives and spouses and so on and so forth because they have been sold that that if drugs are the problem elimination of drugs is the solution um maybe maybe maybe not I don’t you know it’s a very it’s a very individual thing we don’t um and that became a really popular thing in the rehab business you know I call it the um the sun-dried tomato principle where something becomes wildly popular and you guys might be too young but there was a time when sun dried tomatoes were on every menu everything was just like sun-dried tomato and um foreign
treatment became like the buzzword of the industry and the truth is nobody had visualized anything it was all the same bro repetitive stuff nobody had any respect for the individual for their culture for their gender for their gender identification nothing it was all just you’re a drug addict and you don’t care and you know all that same moral stuff so I think that that is one of also one of my hopes for the Psychedelic and plant-based Community is they are nicer people I will give them that like you know I’m a Bay Area guy and all those guys in Oakland were like please tax us we’re going to build a playground we’re gonna put a high school we’re going to put a computer lab at the high school like they just wanted to be accepted I’ve never heard of any beer company putting in computer labs at a high school you know so I think it’s a real opportunity for the expansion of community in lots of different ways absolutely well I appreciate your fiery passion uh Joe no doubt um we’re gonna have coffee after this at some point too can’t can’t wait to to talk more with you about all of this and appreciate your insights and uh you know one of the things you know we did a little a little preview to this episode with the with the docs and Kevin and I got on there and I I get so excited about the potential of innovation here that I thought this is going to get rid of TMS it’s going to get rid of the industry you know on all those sort of things and you know the doctors uh you know hey Brandon slow down let’s get let’s let’s get this right size that you know we’re not necessarily looking at a Panacea here right we’re looking at something that gives you you know incredible insights into that uh into that sack of rocks right and now we’re looking at it but I love hearing that uh the reverence around this from you know both Kevin as a as a licensed addiction counselor here in the state of Colorado and certainly uh from the practitioners that are physicians in front of us and uh would just love to uh hear more you know about that that side of it that reverence and and why we’re thinking about it differently than a Panacea
well nothing’s a Panacea I don’t think you want one right and look you you mentioned TMS you know look this is a really exciting time for Psychiatry actually I mean Psychiatry should be really embracing this I mean there haven’t been changes in the psychiatric technology in a long time and now we have this field that’s really called Interventional Psychiatry right where you’re actually not just talking to somebody or writing prescriptions but you’re actually doing things um uh you know TMS is is administering uh you know magnetic fields around the brain and it’s fascinating stuff and now we have um you know injectable medication uh both for addiction and and ketamine and now plant-based medicine is emerging I mean it’s super exciting so I think we have to have reverence for the idea that the technology and mental health Delivery Systems is is kind of getting with the programs getting modern you know um even though I guess psychedelics is is that modern I don’t know Kevin is it I don’t think it’s modern right it’s ancient right um but we’re modernizing the idea that it can that it can help people and figuring out exactly how to do that and listen there’s some fascinating research going on in this that you know people are looking at all different ways to administer psychedelic medication in in conventional Psychiatry it’s commonplace to kind of prescribe multiple antidepressants because they work on different neurotransmitters make sense somebody’s not getting well on on Prozac and it’s not working well you can add Wellbutrin it works on a different neurotransmitter system you know the same thing can possibly be true in psychedelic medicine and they might be talking about um uh you know combining different agents at the same time for the same reason and and it’s just fascinating um so so stay on it for sure and I think that’s what makes the natural medicine Health act so exciting right now because we need to have multiple Pathways of people to experience this medicine experience these healing potentials both in terms of the regulated model that potentially will exist with a psilocybin delivery system and then as we anticipate Maps bringing MDMA through the finish line for treatment of PTSD through the FDA you know these are going to be medicalized Frameworks with specific medicines but then also acknowledging the autonomy of individuals to make informed decisions about what types of medicines they choose to ingest and what they choose to do in terms of leading an intentional life leading to increased insights into their well-being their mental health conditions that have been adequately treated by traditional means and it’s just a really exciting time to be here in Colorado and is working about to witness Oregon getting started on this model next year I’m looking forward to having multiple Pathways of places to steer our patients towards who have been insufficiently treated through one specific way of doing things now we have a plethora of doing things yeah and that’s guys are also well spoken I just feel like I’m babbling at times and in front of this room of giants uh you know and and one of the things that I want to be cautious of our time here and and just create kind of an open heart open-minded kind of question for the viewers out there but you know one of the sensitivities that’s arising and we’re getting better at our ketamine protocols and this sort of thing but we’ve generally kind of turned it as a treatment program towards like Mental Health primary patients it’s not true in all considerations but one of the things we’ve noticed in the background you know when you know Johnny comes back from the ketamine infusion you know intervention uh is like oh what was that like and it and it’s really mind opening and it’s insightful and they gained from it and they want to share in those experiences and then those without the Mental Health primary disorder you know the substance use side of things you know an opioid use disorder alcohol use disorder they turn around and say well I want to do that and that’s where I think we’re caught off guard by the historical nature of the industry it’s like oh are we seeking something now and like no no we can’t do that for this particular you know disorder or type and there’s a sensitivity there that’s arising and we’re getting better as a company about how to negotiate that how to navigate it actually how to you know get it in the right uh true to the right individuals and you know a question for the docs and you know even Kevin and your experiences uh what is that like for you all uh in consideration of the the suds of the world and what your experiences are around that um and just hopefully you can you know give some insight to the viewers out there that there’s actually probably a lot of potential on that side of the coin um and then what what do we have to do to kind of get that right from a lens and remove kind of that historical fear that we’ve had as treatment centers
look I think that I would just maybe change the mindset of oh can I do that right to oh that’s really interesting can I be evaluated for that right because I think everything if you get back in medicine and mental health gets into a really solid clinical evaluation you know so maybe they are um good candidates maybe they’re not you know I I don’t know I can’t speak to that it’s not you know data might disagree I don’t know you know give it to everybody but but I think but but I I honestly think that I could see where that could that could dovetail into some craziness in the culture of addiction treatment and all of that but I do think we need to get away from it right I mean it might well be determined in the not too distant future that
yeah you know Academia infusions just lowers your chance to relapse with alcohol period whatever is called right and and that’ll be a game changer you know so yeah I think it’s really important to highlight that this is not a pleasurable experience for most people okay this is not when you buy a line of K or Rave this is a very different experience okay this is in a in a journey space where you have you know and most providers there’s an alter there’s uh psychedelic art it’s very comfortable it is not typically um the way that we like to promote it being being um utilized is is in a very therapeutic space with very intentional music you have a you have an eye mask on where you’re creating this inward experience and then you give we give a medicine that causes a dissociative effect where you are it is not always amazing you are not always seeing Jesus in that room and I don’t think that the majority I have a lot of clients who say
you know I really don’t like this but I know it’s helping me like I don’t it’s work and we say that word a lot in psychedelics this is work you are doing work on yourself right this is not coming here get high and let’s see rainbows and you’re gonna feel better right this is it brings the Deep stuff up to the surface so you could work with it that’s exactly what it’s doing so does not this is
IV and you’re gonna have this Randall time right like we promote therapists being there or therapists being there afterwards to integrate those things that came up for you I mean it’s a really important thing to highlight that this is not you’re getting you’re getting high
I think it’s a critical thing I think because from from the cultural perspective I hear from a lot of young people I should do ketamine treatment they think they’re going to a rave I’m like look I don’t know I don’t give medical advice you need to talk to the doctor just you know and Scott you’re exactly right you know sure be evaluated to see if you’re a good candidate for this or for any um intervention for help you know I think that um it’s there isn’t one answer for all people we didn’t all get sick in the same way we’re not going to all get better in the same way and so I think it’s important to find um the individual path that’s going to resonate for any one person and help them what I think is that you know Nathan hating hippies is a bad reason to not use psychedelic medicines which is pretty much how they were vilified in the 60s was Nixon hated counterculture and you know uh it was going to lead to Anarchy and draft dodging you know whatever they were saying whatever the rhetoric is that they were putting in and there are verifiable people from the Nixon Administration saying yeah we knew we were lying yeah we knew you know they cultivated these racist messages against certain medications uh because they didn’t like the culture around them not because they weren’t effective or couldn’t help anybody and that’s really the thing that I think needs to shift is maybe it’ll help you maybe it won’t I don’t know but you should certainly have the option to find out but can I just say and I think this is still recording can I just say that I think that you know I’m very liberal with who I prescribe ketamine too you don’t have to come to me with treatment resistant depression that is that’s total crap honestly if I’m not gonna make someone go and take multiple different medicines that have a 30 chance of working and each time you add a medicine or change some the change of psychiatric medicine that person has a lower likelihood of responding right that’s something that we all right so why are you gonna onboard someone who they’re not accessing their stuff that they really need to work on they’re the slew of side effects and most of these patients get stuck on these medicines for years and years and years their life no no we’re not saying use ketamine every single day or you need to have this for the rest of your life we’re saying have a seidelic experience do some deep work on yourself and you’re probably going to improve regardless of what diet nonsense you walk in the door with yeah and you know the other the other piece of that too that we haven’t spoken about today but is you know inside we have another epidemic going on that’s part and parcel with addition but it’s suicide right youth suicide I mean the racist suicide have gone up and in Psychiatry there’s like a couple of medications that are proven to help with that not very well mind you and you know ketamine kind of got its start because people who were suicidal were getting better quickly and that’s a huge deal so I think that needs to be talked about as well uh might be for another podcast but but that’s important yeah absolutely it I we all need to hang out more uh not just you and me Joe but the I think collectively there’s a lot of passion in this room and it reminds me of my own passion and what I’m energized about here on behalf of the industry uh in that regard and uh I think we’re at the the tail end of our hour here um I love the passion I love the insights um I’ve Loved getting to know you guys at least formally now um from our informal emails of the past uh but for the sake of time and for the viewers out there because we know from a psychiatric standpoint the kids on the the YouTubes and the Facebooks only watch things for three to nine seconds at a time so we’ve given them thousands of seconds of our time in that regard and uh to before taking this out uh as a show and as an episode uh you know Dr B I know you’re in New York City and uh Dr Lerman you’re in Boulder Colorado and uh certainly Joe out in La so I would just like for each of you to kind of go through how you can be found your website uh things you’re willing to give out as far as contact information goes podcasts other projects you might be a part of and then I’ll take it out from there but maybe we start with the Dr B in that regard data um you can find me at Skylight psychedelics.com or on Instagram psychedelics Facebook LinkedIn um we’re National so we’re in every single single state so if you have a therapist and you’re looking for ketamine to be using with your therapist we are more than happy to evaluate you for that yep same for me you can find me there as well Skylight psychedelics.com and all of our contact information is there Beautiful Joe what do you got what do I got I’m on all the social media platforms unless I’ve been uh some uh sometimes I get kicked off for fighting with red State people that’s happened more than once um denial ends is my website and that has all my writings and services and so on and so forth and I’m happy to talk to anybody I’m a very um I’m really into economic justice so if you’re a single mother and you have no money don’t let that stop you from calling me um if you’re a York City model with a lot of money be prepared for a Big Bill so that’s kind of that’s kind of how I work
you’re so you’re so colorful in your in your passion I love it man I can’t wait to do this coffee with you in the background um but in that regard I’m gonna take it out here at uh finding Peaks again chief executive officer Brandon burns with Peaks recovery centers inviting all of these uh incredible guests uh professionals onto this platform to uh help open the hearts and the minds of the viewers out there around proposition 122 here in the state of Colorado and The Innovation possibilities that exist within this framework and then hopefully at some point uh it’s given nationally you can find us on all the tick tocks uh the Facebooks the twitters those types of things out there like us follow us communicated with us through those platforms we much appreciate it as a following finding Peaks at peaksrecovery.com thoughts insights ideas about this particular podcast questions for you know our guests as well too we can get back to them but you direct these episodes at the end of the day and appreciate you reaching out to us and with that we’re all set and done here until next time thanks for viewing everybody

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Episode 77A Powerful Recovery StoryWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/CWGdadUwL8sListen NowDescriptionWe have a special guest in this episode, Rob Decker, the President of Rise with Lions. He opens up about his unique recovery journey, which led him to start a safe, sober, and fun environment to raise awareness about mental health, addiction, and suicide. We discuss wanting to change the conversation about the shame and stigma placed on mental health and addiction.

Talking Points1. Rob’s unique journey to recovery 2. Peaks’ new approach to recovery 3. Harsh realities of Rob’s story 4. Making the connection from head to heart 5. Parenting and recovery Quotes

”Our world runs rampant with despair, isolation, and pain. I want to use my experiences to offer hope, healing, and restoration for others who feel lost and, in their own minds, believe that there is no hope,” says Rob. “There is a ‘silent crisis,’ the number of people with a mental health issue is growing at an astonishing rate. It’s time to bridge the gap with mental health systems and provide informal support for all who deal with various issues. It’s time for men to RISE AS LIONS.”Rob Decker, President of Rise as Lions

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 77 Transcriptshey everybody and welcome to another amazing episode of Finding Peaks Yours Truly Chris Burns president and founder better known as and more comfortable as recovery cheerleader seriously more comfortable people are like I’m like no I’m here to cheer you on I have my co-hosts here Chief clinical Officer Jason friezma grateful to have you back on the show Jack good to be here man it’s been a minute grateful to have you yeah it’s been about six weeks and we are so grateful to have Rob Decker he’s with rise as lions it’s a non-profit here in Colorado Springs working with people with mental health to get them integrated in the community Through Sport fitness connection and healing I’m so grateful to have Rob on the show today I’ve really been looking forward to this episode and Peaks recovery is going to be um Faithfully sponsoring this softball program and we want to continue to move in the direction of creating resources in the community that makes sense for folks with mental health health and we’ve been talking a lot lately on the show I know I have about the myth of normal and kind of this Counter Culture and the fresh lens we get to stare through today and the opportunity to heal through that lens really really cool so grateful to have you on Rob um I want to start with what brought you into recovery needing it myself turns out we needed it right well turns out I had a lot of unresolved trauma in my life and it seeped out into other areas leading into addictions I was heavily self-medicating you know with pornography and drugs and alcohol and fitness even Fitness like you know became unhealthy for me and so when I started seeking out answers and and finding those answers I was like man I gotta I gotta give this to other people man you know yeah absolutely and it’s so interesting because you have a little bit different of a story when you’re seeking those answers I think you know Common culture especially when we’re struggling with addiction right we won’t say mental health yet but addiction right I think the common thought process is I need to go somewhere I need to check in I need to get a treatment plan I need to do all of these things and you did elements of that but it was different your journey was different are you willing to just kind of engage a little bit with the viewers on that Journey what it looked like for you in those early stages well for me like I struggled with the thought of you know wants an addict always an addict and staying attached to that because that wasn’t my identity what I realized in my in my journey was that I was self-medicating a lot because there was a lot of stuff that I was not dealing with I didn’t have the the tools to deal with there was a lot of burdens within me a lot of relationships that needed some mending right and so you know that was a little bit of my Approach was like well how do I get away from the stigma of calling this thing a disease or that I was addicted I need to get to the root of these problems I have to understand my behaviors and how I got here and and I wanted to be that I knew it was going to be super hard um to unpack a lot of that stuff because now you’re talking about childhood trauma and um you know um you know behaviors that were created over time that needed to be dealt with I had to rip the Band-Aid off rip out the stitches clean out the wound and let things heal the right way I I just wasn’t into the Band-Aid method yeah right yeah and being able to see that clearly is tough too especially when you have so much energy in our culture telling us to do it one way right yeah to be really difficult yeah and I’m kind of a rebel in that sense you know what I’m saying like I can figure out a better way to do it but you know but with the one way that was provided to me I just saw way too many flaws and a form of codependency on that way and I just couldn’t buy into it man I just I was like there’s got to be there’s got to be other ways you know and I know that we’re all unique in our own ways and you know working in recovery and with people in recovery for someone it could be one thing one one thing that you alter that really can change their life and for other people there’s five different modalities in order to reach that that freedom that they need in their life and I know that we are all made differently right and uh and I always felt different you know so I guess I was in a place of wanting to do things differently yeah I love it it really goes into one of our core values and I’ve shared this with you and that’s to disrupt the industry right and you are disrupting your arm of this industry and kind of the community-based resources that we have or don’t have here in Colorado I mean throughout the country and it’s just it really is a message of Hope for me um how has it been Jason on the clinical side of things and I know we’ve discussed this before but through the lens that you get to stare through and the opportunity you have to walk with clients and specifically your team what has this new kind of energy brought about for your team that has really created a breath of fresh air if anything at all yeah I think listening to your story I haven’t even started oh yeah we’re through the outline of your story you know we really are looking at um that we at Peaks we treat suffering right people are coming in and they’re suffering and it could be mental health you know depression it could be addiction it could be sex addiction it could be a wide variety of things but to your point like these are all kind of symptoms of like what what is really going on underneath all this and in very very very frequently it’s unresolved trauma for sure that is um needing to be addressed and treated and moving away from you know words like co-occurring or even you know we we have to use them as a practicality talk about substance addiction and that sort of thing substance use disorder but we didn’t even like to say the word Addiction very much anymore in Peaks either like we really try are trying to meet people where they are um in in what we’ve been able to do with that is just create kind of a curriculum that just says hey we’re just going to help everybody’s kind of suffering I I’ve suffered in my ways Chris has suffered in his you’ve suffered in yours and like um and and kind of if we kind of have a process to kind of get to the root at least of some of that suffering that we can get to so yeah that’s how I’ve seen it and it’s it’s invigorating yeah because otherwise it’s it’s a lot of labels differentiate people and and I think to your point um it’s very shaming to say I’m an addict and I’ll always be an addict that’s yeah it’s a shame statement all right 100 it’s very shameful and that’s just not a modality I could buy at all so I’ve actually heard that it’s a form of tribal humility to come together as a group and to shame ourselves like bro there’s way better methods for me well I would actually see that that’s tribal humiliation yeah which is not the same as human I’m sorry yeah okay I I’m I’m not clinical bro yeah that’s my seat yeah 100 so you exactly that’s exactly what that was it’s humiliate tribal humiliation and to me I still don’t see the benefit of it I still think there’s better ways to go about it right because I think a lot of us we go into our addictions and our self-medicating and our our poor relationships because of shame and being attached to shame yeah right and I think we need to break away from that yeah yeah to your point it really is and I steal brene Brown’s it’s a different kind of call to courage I think it really is because I can’t sit here five years ago you know and and call my call to courage wasn’t mental health I was I just wasn’t mentally healthy I had a lot of people around me maybe that thought I was and were praising me because of the chip but I wasn’t I wasn’t in a place in my recovery where I could be courageous enough to work on some of the underpinnings that were informing my every existence specifically my day-to-day behavior um and so now it really is a call to courage and it’s a call for all of us to show up together and to get this tent out broader and bigger and vaster than we’ve ever seen so that all of our friends family and the people places and things that we care about the most can see themselves within it right well you know out of love like I just want to see people free and unfortunately within some groups like I’ve been shamed I’ve been you know I’m a white knuckler or I’m a dry drunk or this is what you really are you’re in denial like no that’s that’s not what any of this is and I understand there’s going to be resistance coming my way but that’s okay I mean I I lived in a world where um I needed to perform to be light right like I had daddy issues as a kid so I performed perform performer and and I’ve gone to a place of my healing in my journey it’s like well dude some people just aren’t going to like me right and that’s okay yeah and I’m okay with that but that doesn’t stop the mission like I suffered from severe rejection and abandonment and neglect like dude in this process of building a non-profit and helping our community like those things are going to happen I’m going to get neglected I’m gonna get rejected right people are going to abandon me in the process and that’s okay right because it’s not gonna my eyes stay on the prize through the whole process you know but anyone can have that like I truly believe with all my heart mind and soul that anyone can have that freedom right and and that’s what I like for me I just want to be a face for that and I want to be an inspiration for that and I want to go into our community and just give it to to everyone that’s willing to be receptive enough to receive it you know I think that’s great man and I I want to go back to something you said you said daddy issues and those can be right let’s talk about it those can be I got double daddy issues

those can really inform so much for young men so much and I would like to explore with you kind of how that started kind of what it informed and kind of what it brought you to kind of that that overarching story that really kind of caught your attention so I got the two for one deal you know um when I was in fifth when I was five years old and I graduated kindergarten I came home and I brought home a certification hey you graduated it had had my name on it Robert Yancey right well my dad informed me that that wasn’t my real name because he wasn’t my real father so here I am like oh so you’re not my real dad so where’s my real dad so he’s not around either so the guy that’s been calling me my dad’s not my dad and my other dad’s not to be found and um just the amount of rejection and loneliness that came with that and early on in my life I was a huge introvert I just kept to myself until I started adapting a lot of behaviors of my my dad you know he unfortunately was in drugs and alcohol and violent and you know he had his struggles and demons that he never addressed right and I started to become him which led me to be this extrovert in a sense and that’s the path it took for me so by the time I was 14 or 15 years old man man I was getting loaded drinking smoking weed and then all that just evolved to all these other drugs and eventually being addicted to cocaine right and and I mean to the point where dude I would drink a bottle of vodka at night and I’d wake up in the morning and take all these uppers just to get the party going and that was my life day in and day out all through my 20s that was that was life and I know that I was numbing myself through that whole process until I eventually LED myself into just a horrible relationship like you know there was this need for stimulation through these really wild relationships because someone that actually loved me and cared about me that didn’t work for me because I didn’t understand that right but what I understood was violence and aggravation and constant fighting and so those were the relationships that were stimulating to me and I eventually was so deep in one of those relationships that she falsely accused me of rape and attempted murder which led to my suicide attempt that left me with a severed spine two broken arms and a collapsed lung and the outcome of that wasn’t very good because the cops show up and hit me with rape and murder charges you know doctors are telling me you’re never going to walk again if you do you’re going to be fully medicated like you’re not going to work like Sports and Fitness that’s not part of your life now bro like you know and that’s that’s where it led so the rejection of all that led to all these decisions as a teen and a young man you know and even at when I sobered up I was still that 15 year old boy living in that 34 year old body right and so now I had to be like okay there’s some work to be done yeah right because this little boy needs to go hey there’s a little kid that lives inside of me you know but I can’t have the wrong little kid living inside of me um and and so that’s kind of where it led me yeah and I it’s I love that you bring up kind of that little kid inside and I think this is a really great topic and thank you for sharing so vulnerably but and how that informs right you said I showed up at 15. at 34. you know I think we talk about developmental um maturity sometimes in the developmental process and oftentimes How We Do show up at that age and you give a really good example of how that 15 year old informs my every behavior and my 35 year old ecosystem absolutely um and I just just like your responses your everyday response is like yeah dude that’s how a 15 year old Rob acts like yeah well you got to get it together yeah like you gotta you gotta put that little boy down yeah how were you able to make because it really is for me it’s been the Journey Of My Life um how did you make that connection and it really is and I talk about it often but it is kind of this million mile March from head to Heart how did you connect that because the story you just brought up and I don’t I know you didn’t get into detail I mean has a lot of people in our world right now feeling like they’re going to be disconnected for the rest of their life you know and they have no hope right well you know for me I developed a relationship with God and and that that relationship with God gave me purpose and I understood that I was here for a reason and that reason was to take all my life experiences and share them with other people so maybe they don’t have to walk a similar path as me so I found out my whys and my purpose and and that’s what I went running with and in order to take it to the next step with helping and I’m sure you both see this in the recovery World you’ll get the person that is gung-ho one year sober like oh I’m gonna be a sober coach and I’m going to lead the way but they haven’t addressed their childhood traumas they haven’t so when they come when that stuff starts to hit them well they haven’t even processed their own stuff and then before you know they’re hitting the bottle again because they don’t know how to manage all that and they have to self-medicate I didn’t want to be that I didn’t want to be that at all I wanted to be the guy that was just free in my life and so I had to seek and seek and search and you know I had to figure it out myself and I was willing to do so because I wanted the quality of my life to be so Grand that it just poured down on people I you know I tell people a lot when I share about my family especially my son Caleb you know I want this ceiling in my life to be my kid’s dance floor like I want them to give such a leg up in this life that they did they’ll have their own personal experiences but they don’t need mine right they don’t need mine and so I want to give them a different life so that they can take everything that I’ve done in in community and life and make it Greater because at the end of the day I believe our purpose is to help people guide them to the light help them heal right and we can all just get along bro you know what I’m saying and and that’s kind of what I want to do in our community and raising a family is I want to be that light right but being that light means you’re going to have to go through a whole bunch of darkness and address something things and you’re going to get into your house that you grew up and you’re going to have to open up some doors you’re going to open up somebody you’re going to let some stuff out bro you know and there’s gonna be some dark stuff in there you know and so even if I haven’t completely I won’t say healed from certain situations I’ve developed enough tools to be able to cope with things when things get hard yeah right because sometimes we don’t completely heal like when I start talking about certain things in my life I might get teary-eyed right it still impacts me right but now I can deal with it right now I have the tools right and and the mental maturity to cope with those things and get through them now you know and again I believe anyone can have those things yeah yeah and I love what you said with the why on purpose I mean you want to see somebody in early recovery take off like a wildfire show them their purpose put it in front of them we talked before the show you were meeting with another guy in recovery yes you were sharing and purpose and you were like I want to help you highlight this and enhance it and be a part of it and he was like me really right and it’s just the opportunity we get to see people light up when they know that they’re seen heard and valued right it’s incredible and a lot of us so the guy that you’re talking about like he grew up in a big family so he was never seen and I felt the same way like bro I’m you you know and someone gave me a shot right I’m not dude I see like I see in you what you don’t see in you right now and uh I want to help you I want to help you through that process I want to I Want to Hold Your Hand bro like let’s let’s do this together man and then what what you’re going to do is you’re going to see somebody in a similar situation and you’re gonna go help him and that’s how change happens right beautiful that’s how change happens and that’s what we want we want change right we want transformation I don’t want a change in human behavior I want true transformation yeah that’s what I want to see yeah you know it’s easy to put down the drink right well I wouldn’t say it’s easy to put down yeah we’ll retract that but but it’s one thing to put down the substance in the drink but not address the stuff that led to that right to that behavior but how do we get deeper so there’s a true transformation so I can actually walk into a bar with all this alcohol everyone smells like liquor it doesn’t even fade you right right like I don’t have to run oh my God it’s like like yeah no it would be there right like and to be able to have a sincere conversation with someone who’s struggling right like yeah you know and and that’s that’s the transformation that I’m hoping to see through everything that we’re doing in our community right it’s a beautiful thing man and it’s it’s a transformation and a story of which our young ones can hear I remember in the early stages of being a father um two three-year-olds three four-year-olds and trying to explain my recovery at that time even just three three four years ago and they’re like they look at me like you’re not making sense and now from this mental health piece and the way that we talk about love and connection and community and family they’re like makes sense dad makes total sense to to my seven-year-old who now um Can critically think a little bit he’s like man that checks out really good dad and he just kind of and what you said man I’m gonna steal it and put it in my pocket because everything I say is from somebody else that I heard along the way but I want my kids my ceiling to be my kids dance floor and I know what you meant by that it had nothing to do with money it was mental health from a mental health perspective I wanted to be as mentally healthy the best I’ve seen is the worst you’ll ever see I don’t want people you know what I don’t want my kids having to chase people’s approval they have mine yeah right I love you I remember the first time my kids struck out like we already moved the kid up a level in baseball like dude you’re doing good bro but he doesn’t get he’s five right and he struck out and he just it ripped him and I was like you know what bro you can strike out for the rest of the season and guess who loves you Daddy loves you bro yeah Daddy loves you so where it was different for me it was different for me right like that wasn’t the same response right it’s just like yeah you know you’re not basically clean version you’re not doing sure your job right right yeah yeah you strike out knock it down no you’re grounded yeah you struck out yeah yeah yeah yeah you know and so I want to be able to provide and even within that like I’ve noticed like I’ve even cleaned up so at one point I remember you know my son fell down and you know the things like that were said to me about hurting and crying right like they were pretty hardcore you know and I remember the first time it really happened to my son I was like hey dude get up and Shake It Off bro you’re good and in that moment I realized dude I just cleaned up what my dad said I just gave you you know what bro come here you know and I embraced my son he just needed like dude yeah a little one they do this together you know and and I realized that even in in those deep-seated traumas like there’s still some some behaviors that seep through and that was one of them and I’m like dude that was learned I learned that and I cleaned it up my version of it but it just wasn’t good enough not for my kid you know not for what I’m trying to pay for my family things have to be different and there’s a lot of work in that bro because you’re constantly mindful you’re constantly aware like bro my head hurts yeah but it’s it’s worth it yeah it really is man and I love that too and I can remember that coming up Mike I’m like chill out Chris yeah get dressed whoa suck it up buttercup my kid would be like what the [ __ ] what is this where are the buttercups like I want one of those yeah that sounds good man I’m hurting yeah I’ll do a snack yeah feed me Dad I’m crying I want to I want to wrap up with um yeah and I’ve just appreciated this the authenticity in the show and your story and your journey and your willingness to come on and share with the community so much but I want to check in with Jay as we wrap up and maybe talk to the viewers a little bit how you’re informing the clinical team to walk with people throughout this journey to make that million mile March from head to Heart yeah I mean I think so much of it comes down to uh

uh maintaining curiosity with people like never being very certain about what their experiences and and always uh recognizing um somewhere early in my training as a clinician too somebody told me that all Behavior makes sense in context and so when somebody is in our program and they are freaking out or they want to go home or whatever it is that’s going on and and it feels confusing it’s our job not to like be like a hammer necessarily but it’s like well somehow this makes sense for this person and let’s just help them find how this makes sense a little bit of what you’re sharing Rob like you know like your response to your son when he fell and you you clean up your Dad’s version there’s a reason I mean you inspected it yourself because you’re you’re insightful like that but like there’s something that drove that and and that energy was like from your dad and your authentic response was like I just need to nurture this little boy who fell down like that’s that’s what a parent will do in this situation I don’t have to tell them to dust it off and like get up and keep going even though that was certainly more encouraging yeah I think I think overall like um just kind of uh holding on to that aspect and not um not focusing on Behavior so much but really trying to get to know somebody and and that’s where the change occurs yeah uh inside out not necessarily I mean we have to have something outside in yeah correction as well but like I think a lot of it is like how do I change this inside part yeah and then the result will be a change in my outward Behavior yeah I think and you can see that in the ecosystem too it’s just well do you find it like is it common for you to see like the unwillingness for a lot of your clients or patients to let go of the things that have happened in their childhood or do they not recognize the toxic behavior that took place because it was so normalized for them and like to be able to you know yeah we spend a lot of time uh in our curriculum Annette at Peaks like helping people gain a lot of insight right because I I certainly could believe that it’s really difficult to change something you’re not aware of like and I think um so we do spend a lot of time like okay what is driving this what are you grieving what what ruptures have you had in your family system or what developmental Milestones did you kind of get hammered at like the story you shared about like proudly coming home graduating kindergarten and like get this like shocking news dropped on your lap like you’re an adult you know or something like that that creates a problem yeah like you weren’t ready as a little kid to walk through that without some support and all that and like so once people realize that then we can kind of build in the skills behind that and build in some strategies for kind of walking through that and being able to recognize when him kind of getting outside of myself in this way yeah well I see that even with my parents at that time like they just didn’t have the tools and skills for all that kind of stuff you know and now I look back and I think a lot of what has provided healing in my life is that I saw my parents as you know messed up human beings like myself that faced a lot of trauma and never resolved it you know and and you know just being able to forgive them and saying you know what you did your best you knew you know that right there the weight that came off my shoulders it’s like man and the amount of healing just like you’re just I think that we put our parents on this pedestal and I think that anyone listening like you know a lot of times we still have Strife with one of our parents you know and you know forgiveness is a pretty powerful tool yeah just just saying it really is and I and to your point like sometimes we do like these family trees too where it’s like yeah your parents are probably messed up that they probably had messed up parents you know what I mean yeah and it does take somebody to dig their heels in and say I’m I’m I’m making my ceiling my kids I’ll tell you this like Breaking the Chain is work breaking those like devastating it’s work yeah but like I believe we’re in a a generational culture where we need to a lot of us really just need to yeah and and that’s going to shift our culture if you can break away because I just think again we’re going to go back to shame and all that stuff like people are walking the streets and shame right you know and their behavior is you know and I love that I love that we’re pushing up against this wall that has been so normalized in our recovery culture for so long because the people that we have the opportunity to serve really really deserve it yes um and it’s um it’s it’s really cool to be aligned with people like yourself in the community kind of fighting that same fight and talking about important issues that need to be explored a bit more thoroughly not only for young men but young women as well right um so I appreciate you coming on Rob no I yeah thank you for having me yeah absolute pleasure bro yeah it’s been so cool man thank you for what you’re doing with us you know it’s uh that’s huge that’s huge I mean when when someone comes alongside you and says hey we’re about what you’re doing yeah that’s encouraging yeah I appreciate it thank you yeah absolutely well until next time uh find us on man it’s been a minute Instagram podcast Tick Tock Spotify been a little bit off Tick Tock lately I’ve been working on some grief but I’m gonna get back on here soon it’s funny when I’m doing my grief stuff I’m like Tick Tock ah it’s tough man it gets super pumped on it on top of everything oh it’s right here like all these other platforms yeah but until next time it’s been a pleasure peace

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Episode 76Behind the Care: Bettering Behavioral Health TreatmentWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/dp3kaBfZ-gUListen NowDescriptionIn this Behind the Care episode, we have a unique guest, Jonathan De Carlo, the CEO of C4 Consulting, who discusses specific challenges behavioral health companies face. We dive into how C4 dedicates its practice to growing and sustaining organizations that work in behavioral health management, addiction, and mental health treatment to provide quality care to the people providers serve.

Talking Points1. What does C4 Consulting do? 2. What Jonathan sees changing within the behavioral health industry 3. What is missing in the behavioral health industry? 4. Finding the right resource for you or your loved one 5. Walls treatment centers hit with insurance companies 6. The challenges that come with being OON (out-of-network) 7. Community and family 8. Being active and aware of your local government 9. Staffing priorities Quotes

”There is alot of room for growth in providing quality information and educating consumers and the public on how to find the right treatment resources. Teaching consumers, people making investments in their own well-being, or their family members well being, and providers being able to share the right information with transparency and authenticity, not just marketing, not just saying we do all things, but really being able to say here’s what we do well and here’s how we are a good fit. So I think the education of access to care, there certainly needs to be grown.”– Jonathan De Carlo, the CEO of C4 Consulting

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 76 Transcriptswelcome back to another episode of Finding Peaks sometimes I forget how to do these episodes but that’s the intro for you the crew out there listening watching excited with your popcorn ready I hope so cause we got a great episode today Brandon Burns chief executive officer for Peaks recovery centers joined by co-host Jason friezma LPC Lac Chief clinical officer at Peaks recovery centers all things clinical just in case we got to break out the tissues and dive into some CBT or something I don’t even see the tissue anywhere you all seen him do his work on this show it happens we’re live and joined today uh with uh Jonathan DeCarlo CEO of C4 Consulting and we’re going to dive into his work through C4 Consulting and all of the Consulting that you do in the behavioral health industry in that regard so Jonathan thank you so much for being down here and hanging out with us today thank you Brandon and Jason for for having us and inviting me down and the opportunity to to continue our suburb of the legacy of dialogue on improving Behavioral Health yes love it that’s what we do at all the conferences for the viewers out there I chase Jonathan DeCarlo down when I see him I’m like I gotta get in that guy’s brain also master’s degree in philosophy or philosophy of some sort of background in philosophy background in philosophy that’s why we’re so good at communicating with each other um for another episode though uh today in regards to C4 Consulting uh what is it for the viewers out there namely speaking to the industry uh insiders out there in the crew um what are you guys doing and what are you committed to as a project so C4 Consulting is a behavioral health consulting firm so we are the providers provider one of our clients calls us the behavioral health Geek Squad so we solve challenges and help create and Implement solutions for treatment providers in Behavioral Health substance use Mental Health the ABA space foster care Integrative Medicine you know the widest sense of Behavioral Health we are a division of C4 recovery Foundation which is a non-profit organization that’s been around for over 38 years invested in policy and advocacy access to care quality standards of treatment you know so our role in service to organizations is really helping organizations such as Peaks and others improve their processes their system their services whether that’s strategy growth you know financial performance program expansion clinical enhancement technical assistance training um really Soup To Nuts that everything that a provider really needs and whether that’s an individual and you know Private Practice all the way up to you know large Hospital Systems multi-state consortiums we’re an international consultancy with 30 Consultants coast to coast and one in Europe and and clients abroad uh you know really honored to partner with the folks that we get to serve and we take pride in our ability to be able to be a high integrity service provider in the Consulting world love it uh for the viewers out there of course Jason you know if you Jonathan if you’ve watched any of these episodes I always point at Behavioral Health companies websites because we’re about Hope and uh alleviating the symptomology and the depression and the Dual diagnosis and all those things our websites say we are so good at those things yet we have Consulting in our industry so it can’t be all those things and we’re not going to point in any websites or companies today or anything like that but I think a good thing to to kind of Showcase from there is uh you know in all of the experiences that you have what do you see working well within our industry you know at this time uh I know it’s a big question but you know we’ll start big and then we’ll we’ll shoot other questions through there it is I think really one of the biggest things that’s happening especially in the last I would say 12 to 24 months really has been an awareness of the need for treatment resources I think more time effort and energy both within our space and in the public Consciousness has been raised about the need and impact of Behavioral Health in communities and so I think our industry is doing well and being able to start to answer the call of community need some people May challenge that and say well it’s just a cash grab and people are just out there to make money on the suffering of others but that’s not really why people get into this industry by and large you know there are certainly corporations that see the economic advantage of public awareness being raised you know in this process but when we look at things like the opiate pandemic prior to the covid-19 pandemic and the rising need of Behavioral Health broadly both in substance use and mental health in the United States and around the world you know I think that’s something that we’re doing well is being able to be present and adaptively respond to the needs of our communities providers are really challenging themselves to diversify their services in ways that meet Community needs sometimes incredibly ethically and sometimes not so much you know they’re not so much part certainly is the downside but I think that’s one thing that our industry does well is to say we’re here and we’re present and although that may be challenging for some in a community I do think the industry is doing well in trying to improve access to care there’s a huge Runway to that of improving that but things like the mental health parity Act uh you know our starting point of you know providing resources for people to receive treatment and providers to be able to begin to have a dialogue about what is Equitable and Equitable and fair reimbursement look like and I think those things are you know on their way long way from from True equity which will come in in a later question but I think I think you know the public awareness and the ability to be present in communities is something that our Industries really improving and doing well with wonderful and then yeah as I alluded to from our our hopeful websites you know that we don’t convey on the front end of a treatment episode it’s you know what do you see as the kind of the backdrop and all the organizations that you maybe the organizations that you’ve worked with or not necessarily the organizations in particular but just at the national level you know what are we still missing or what are you seeing as kind of the the big lacunas in our industry in that regard I think quality information and educating consumers and the public on how to find the right treatment resources I think there’s a lot of room for growth with that of you know teaching consumers you know people making investments in their their own well-being or their family members well-being um and providers being able to share the right information with transparency and authenticity not just marketing not just saying we do all things but really being able to say here’s what we do well and here’s how we’re we’re a good fit so I think that education of access to care while access you know there certainly needs to be more effort grown in it I think the the education of people understanding how to pursue treatment and I have a great example of it I am a person in long-term recovery myself and I had a friend of mine in my recovery Community Reach Out looking for a resource in Southern California where he used to live and he was looking for a particular 12-step based resource and was just trying to get a hold of the local uh you know 12-step group to connect someone to and what he kept finding when he Googled was rehab.com and all these numbers and he thought he was calling the local 12-step community outreach line and they kept trying to sell him treatment and so he reached out to me and said how do I find the local you know 12-step group and I said oh Orange County California yeah go to the National website yeah and then drill down into the state and you’ll find and and he did and if he said why was this so hard I’m like because there’s competition to try and advertise for access to care so I think educating consumers on what the resources are on the transparency you know is something that both providers and communities need to work work on together you know starting with local local consortiums and platforms and groups and then building out from the local into the regional into the national yeah what do you recommend if you don’t mind me asking what do you what do you recommend for a consumer because this is a big hot button for me too like a family member is in distress I found a powder in my son’s room or whatever and I need a resource now and then you get on Google and differentiating between all these beautifully shiny websites of what to do how what do you recommend to people like that to families I think one of the resources that comes up and it may sound like a strange one but it’s called your health insurance provider and find out who their and network contracts and and have relationships with because that process requires a vetting of providers right so going to those types of actions of go to the resources you have and start there going to your Primary Care Health Physician and saying who are The Trusted sources in your community your family health practitioner you know your doctor who takes care of you and your has taken care of your children for years probably knows someone in the community that he trusts and even though he may not be able to recommend you directly to a treatment center he’s going to recommend it to someone or at least call someone that he knows that’s a trusted verify Source that’s then going to have an authentic referral that’s been vetted at some level and bringing much closer much faster to someone in your community that you know has that relationship with the right information I actually got a call from a friend of mine last night about something very similar with a family member saying hey you’re the person I know and I know you know you’re you’re in Consulting and I know you know the whole network of of alcoholism treatment providers here in Denver my friend lives in this part of town as his brother’s really concerned family needs to do something which at least talk to them you know and and that’s how it happened was he reached out to me knowing that I was a trusted resource with information so I think for a family member Google’s not a bad thing but you got to get past and realize that the first four or five lines on Google are the paid ads and then start looking at the actual treatment websites that are beneath that but go to the resources that you have yeah because your your health insurance provider um is going to have resources and they’re going to have numbers and they’re going to have advocates uh you know in their uh part that are just there to help you navigate some of those resources but family practitioners you know Medical Care local Community Resources people may find this absurd and strange but anybody who’s finding a powder in their son or daughter’s bedroom is probably had a run-in with the local authorities calling you know your your local law enforcement for resources another one because chances are they’ve worked with the local providers in some capacity to be able to know them so finding the trusted authentic sources I think is incredibly important Google gets you lost uh and it’s you know it takes skill even as a provider to know what you’re looking at uh you know when we’re looking at resources and that’s you know it’s a different uh episode I think for that one yeah in its entirety and I know you guys have covered that before but that’s you know I think starting with those yeah those resources in your life and chances are most people know someone um who’s had a mental health or a substance use Challenge and has turned their life around call them yeah yeah I like that yeah I appreciate the question I appreciate the insights and I think that’s one of the things that we’ve worked uh I want to say tirelessly it’s a big word but it’s Thursday end of the week I’m gonna use the word tirelessly on in this episode to give family systems the edge education and information they need so whether it’s an ad or a rehabs.com or whatever the link is they’re clicking on or the number they’re calling at the end of the day to empower family systems with just good questions to ask treatment centers right because you know admissions teams are generally more hungry to fill a treatment center than they are hungry to you know educate about is it around what is a best fit for the operation in that regard and empowering family systems with questions or family systems with questions they can ask providers or treatment centers around that to better negotiate whether this is going to be a good fit for not only their loved one but you know from a from an economic situation as well too whether it’s in network out of network Medicaid resources and so forth so the the you know as an out of network provider um not gonna be able to call Blue Cross Blue Shield and flying Peaks recovery centers but with that uh it’s it’s a it’s a hot button for me because uh in that way of things I agree with in network Contracting it provides greater access it lowers the cost uh uh for treatment episodes four family systems and so forth but one of the things we find ourselves kind of caught in a rut with right now and I think this goes back to you know taxable dollars and these things that we’ve talked about in the past Jonathan but I think it’d be helpful for viewers just to kind of hearing understand some of these frustrations and kind of walls that centers hits so for example Peaks recovery centers has tried to go in network but we get hit with you know uh quotes of well this is what the market will bear what they’re stating out of that I believe is and certainly correct me if I’m wrong is like okay well if you’re just going to deliver this service and you’re not gonna you know prioritize evidence-based practices or whatever then our fee for service contract looks like this but we also have this value-based approach thing over here that’s happening at the same time and I was just curious before we kind of dive you know kind of deeper into this rabbit hole about this when I think about value-based approaches to care the thing that I’m running as I try to tell the insurance company no more valuable here’s all the things we’re doing here’s our outcome data all that sort of stuff and it seems like they’re not really equipped in the background at least at this moment to you know they’re not building the systems and a they say a and then B they seem uh as if they are a little disinterested in the value proposition I’m trying to bring in at the same time and I know you’ve worked in you know Contracting uh across several you know payers and you know businesses within our industry so I’m just curious if you can uh help support the viewers out there kind of this this thing that I bring up lightly on finding Peaks from time to time but to talk more about kind of the pains within that and then what those Solutions are are not only for family systems but you know for our industry and individuals trying to go in network because the fee for service you know fee that’s lobbed over the fence in the first regard to me I’ve often talked about it isn’t sustainable I think from an industry standpoint Staffing and so forth so uh insights I know you can deal with my intangents I’m sure you heard like five questions in there but I he’ll run with it folks I’ll pick up on the on the broad strokes and run forward yeah so I think one of the great challenges for everyone involved in a care Healthcare ecosystem specifically in Behavioral Health Care uh is understanding how reimbursements actually work right so they’re the insurance company’s job is to spend as little money as necessary to provide the accessible benefit for their member they have not only goals but mandates to keep spend parameters for Health Care within a certain tolerance very complex algorithms and Actuarial tables and all this economic and and math that would drive most people insane but some really love that stuff and it’s extremely complex but it’s ultimately challenging to Value the care for a life when it comes to behavioral health care in particular larger Health Care has worked progressively and you mentioned a brand in values-based programming so what are often referred to in healthcare as accountable care organizations or acos so for certain conditions there’s a predictive set of things that you do you know roughly what it’s going to cost to treat someone with a broken leg you know how much the the initial Physician’s assessment is going to be how much time the nurse is going to need to spend you know examining it forming the cast taking the x-rays and you’re able to calculate a cost for a Continuum of treatment because it’s relatively predictive things like diabetes management uh things like cardiac conditions uh you know the the procedures for those diagnoses uh can be calculated roughly within a predictive tolerance of of what that costs to produce and what’s fair for a provider to be able to do that and Behavioral Health Care it’s much more complex because we’re asking you to as a provider to take care of the entirety of someone’s life Health medical social Financial uh you know domestic and no one individual has the same set of symptoms the same set of parameters so our industry is challenged on on both the payer and the provider side with Diagnostics that can adequately be tracked uh to say this is how much time you should spend dealing with that feeling of that traumatic wound that you experienced as a child when your parents got divorced and your dad then moved to Kuala Lumpur to be a CFO for uh you know whatever gaming company farmed him out like the reality of these things and you grow up uh you know with these challenges and these these uh you know different traumatic events and adverse childhood experiences compile to produce substance use disorder uh you know in your life which then becomes a primary life-threatening condition right right all of these things are part of the work that we do in Behavioral Health so there’s a tremendous challenge both to say to a pair this is how much time we need to accurately and and precisely assess someone to understand their needs to respond to the treatment again in other health care settings you know you know that it’s going to take six to eight weeks for that bone to heal or you know 12 months for you to lose that weight to then qualify for the diabetes Management program you know whatever those things are that are that are correlative the health care industry and the payer side of things specifically with commercial you know sources but even Public Health funded sources like Medicare Medicaid are challenged on on the values based side to create opportunities to say we’re going to reward based on performance of a combination of things and share the responsibility which in the payer world is called risk management right but the responsibility to each other as the provider and the payer and the service to the plan member the person receiving care of here’s what we’re going to do and here’s how we’re going to calculate this that’s fair for you as a person running a business paying people to provide this service to this individual and their family as well as acknowledge you know that there needs to be some margin of flexibility because not everything works the same way for end every individual highly individualized care produces the best long-term outcomes um lots of studies continue to prove that to your point the uh the systems of the payers are largely not equipped particularly in Behavioral Health to manage the Contracting that providers like yourselves are willing to put together to say we will do lots of different things to share that responsibility that risk right in order to invest in our clients care because we’ve spent time designing a treatment program that is a highly complex flexible and and a combination of evidence-based practices and practice-based experience uh we know that these things work and are impactful but have built enough room for them to be flexible to meet each person’s needs to the best of our ability as they respond to the care and that we’re willing to invest and we we feel confident enough in our service that we can even you know some might call it a warranty we can say that yes we’re we’re going to invest and say if a person needs to to come back in after in a you know a time to discharge and they’re struggling that we’re going to eat that cost as a part of this fee right this becomes the value-based proposal right of sharing risk but really responsibility as well as other metrics that are organizational Health metrics that are based on actual measurable outcomes of how treatment is measured and the changes that a person is responding to to show and prove to the payer that this is working and is effective for this individual and really outline that so in the broader Health Care System there are lots of these systems that are already set up and going for these conditions but the diagnostics for for Behavioral Healthcare are really challenging to do that with it doesn’t mean it’s impossible because there are people doing it in the country Medicaid as a mandate to increase the number of percentage of values based Contracting that they provide in their communities uh progressively over the next really 15 years but there’s another Milestone coming up at 2025 there’s a milestone to 2035 is that more than 30 percent of Medicaid contracts for federal where federal dollars are invested and spent need to be values based Contracting so the challenge you know for the payers is they’re not set up to do it because their systems are set up to spend as little as possible not to share risk they don’t know how to do the contract they don’t know how even when they design them together with providers and they say yes we’re willing to do that the actual reimbursement departments their systems aren’t set up to measure these outcomes so we have to teach the providers and we have to teach the payers how to do this together and there are lots of wonderful systems there’s you know groups in Pennsylvania and throughout the Northeast groups in California doing this work one of our board members uh Jan Pringle at the C4 recovery Foundation has built an amazing system that’s been impacting counties in Pennsylvania the saving what might some might believe is unbelievable amounts of money by doing these values-based systems that teach providers and payers how to provide better treatment and better management of the process together in a way that’s collaborative and so I think the challenge is when people look at like the fee for service model and say well you should be able to produce it for this amount of money and that’s just not real right you know the cost of production it’s not even about margin on top of that it’s just about operating expenses right of Behavioral Health Care people and this brings up a Workforce challenge that will you know we’ll probably talk about so I’ll ask you to parking lot that one for a moment but the the reality is that you know paying people adequately requires a business to have good health care good compensation to to recruit highly trained highly talented highly experienced people and that doesn’t come without an expense right let alone you know not just the human resources and the facilitation but the cost of advertising the costs of providing care of the flexibility that’s needed to be able to manage the number of hours so you know it’s a challenge rules providers and payers but the payers in particular want to believe that if you can fix costs you can fix outcome that’s not really true if you fix costs too low the quality of your outcomes is capitated by what you’re able to spend to produce it and the annual contract negotiations for a network provider typically are three to five percent it’s just inflation plus one right and if you fight real hard as a well-designed payer which we do a lot of this in collaboration with our clients of helping them renegotiate or even just get credentialed in the first place for manageable rates that are actually acceptable that they can work with but for some groups we say stay out of network because you don’t want to compromise the quality of your care you’re spending a certain amount to produce it and your outcomes are really impactful well that comes at a price right and someone has to pay it you know yeah what uh what would you say to the to the family systems that might engage with you know a company like peaks of course at Peaks we believe in each and every moment we’re Staffing we’re doing the appropriate things but I think one of the challenges as out of network providers is we are legitimately trying to use the resources that we have the income that we have to provide efficacious to care to feed the system the staff the salaries inflationary periods and so forth and it does as you’re saying come at a high cost but I think one of the major struggles of our industry especially against the backdrop of healthy and network providers is this out of number providers can get paid this much but if they don’t insert any sort of those assets they’re pulling on the systems and so what would you say about that as an issue in our industry or add to that or well I would say for family members in particular understanding the quality of care and and looking at resources like I suggested initially in that phone call is the starting point but don’t just settle for the end Network contract look at the provider and make sure they can meet your family members needs and you know I mean the cost of treatment you know the outer Network deductible amount uh honestly for for many treatment centers and this will be regionally driven um is one-fifth the cost of a funeral and I’m not trying to be dramatic but it’s usually around five to six thousand dollars of initial out-of-pocket expense for the deductible to be met that’s an investment and can be recouped it is something that you know when you work with a a well-trained providers such as Peaks that will support you getting the out-of-network reimbursement become educated about what that process is because the value often for the right provider who’s not a network that is out of network the experience of the Care Quality is dramatically higher and so working with a provider who knows how to support you as a family member because you as the family member the plan member of the holder of the policy are always going to get better response from the payer and so being able to collaborate with your provider on how do I do that and oftentimes what we find and there are companies that do what’s called patient or client advocacy with billing to help them get the reimbursement for that is that that money is an investment and it’s just like investing in college or education or Workforce training but the truth is I go back to that example of it’s you know generally a fifth the cost of a funeral a funeral these days with a headstone and a casket and all that’s 25 to 35 thousand dollars
to invest in your family members Health Care by spending a few thousand dollars to make sure they get the best care possible within your resources is the smartest thing you can do and so to work with that provider and say how do you help me if I choose you because you’re not in network and you’re out of network how can you help me make sure that we get the best value from the insurance company so ask the provider the questions what does that mean how do you assist what does billing look like what are my responsibilities what are your responsibilities and being really clear and and you know groups like Peaks and others uh you know who are high integrity authentic service providers will be easily be able to in a mouse click send you the information if they haven’t already in the process while you’re exploring treatment as a resource and be able to walk you through exactly what that is what the documentation looks like how you collaborate together to provide the best care for your family member hopefully that answers your question it does I love it that’s exactly what I was looking for I I think that just acknowledging all the different resources that exist out there and again educating the consumer on uh their opportunity within this to just ask thoughtful questions to reach out to resources that are right there in their wallet and to you know build up a platform this and I think and you know at the end of the day it’s challenging because you know out-of-pocket costs even in network you know depending on where the the the contract came from or the policy came from can be expensive in that regard but I think what we’re thinking about here is an investment and to the you know the language around the opioid pandemic if we’re gonna you know that is literally Taking Lives and we you’ve shared this now the cost value proposition of what that would look like to entertain that versus the investment being you know 20 of the cost versus an outcome like that right yeah I mean it’s just the reality I mean by the time people are experiencing substance use misuse and get to a level of diagnostic will abuse and and dependence people have already spent three or four times that on legal fees and you know other measures that aren’t treatment oriented to try and help produce change in someone’s life and so not to say that treatment is the answer but for those who qualify and meet that criteria that investment and a wise investment in the right level of care at the right time in a Continuum that really helps someone develop the stabilization they need to address the acute symptoms that they’re experiencing all the way into their long-term reintegration into a sustainable happy life in a community is the investment the people are looking for but to Jason’s point when a family member is calling they’re in one of the most distressed periods other than when their son or daughter was supposed to be home at 10 o’clock and it’s 11 30 and they’re waiting for the call yeah that says they’re in the hospital they’re in the morgue this is you know the Colorado Springs Sheriff’s Department right you know this is Bobby your friend was supposed to your son’s friend who was here but they ran out last night and I don’t know where you know that that call that every parent fears of surviving their children the reality is that this is an investment yeah you know and it’s an investment that pays off but to that point of it’s a Continuum of Care you know it’s not one and done it’s about evolving needs and evolving recovery yep I think another complicating factor that I’d like to throw in there is that we one of our core values is certainly helping families along the way too and um and we provide Direct Services to families we offer them support groups and and access to clinicians and that doesn’t really fit into good Medical Care boxes like if you break your leg you don’t provide treatment to the mom who is distraught by it like us but but we do because it we look at addiction and mental health as a family issue to address and if if the family isn’t helped like we can treat an individual as well as we can and then send them back to the same environment and that won’t work uh no matter how long or how good of work we do oh absolutely I mean it’s really and I’ll broaden it and say the family is is the core level of community but it’s really the entire Community because no one exists and lives in a vacuum and the impacts of someone’s substance use uh journey to to abuse Independence impacts the community as well it doesn’t happen in isolation uh you know no one wakes up after you know 50 years of shooting heroin in a closet that’s never affected anyone there’s lives connected to lives and so I think the the there are two parts of that I’d like to respond to one the payers need to do better in being able to reimburse for Family Services independent of the primary members treatment experiences and that is getting better but it’s a long ways away from being sustainable and organizations such as Peaks do invest in that and that’s how they invest in communities by offering you know free levels of service that are just Community integration and collaboration Partnerships and so I think to the to the bigger part of community it’s really all the resources in the community understanding each other and understanding what’s available and being able to solve the challenge that each Community is experiencing simultaneously as a family member you know getting involved in in the process of your own healing and defining your own recovery I’ll Define recovery the way that we do at C4 consulting which I’ve shared with Brandon Through The Years so our definition of recovery is the restoration of one’s Humanity so it’s not about Diagnostics it’s not about modality it’s about whatever’s impacted your life to be your highest wisest best most authentic connected self that’s your recovery so for a family member it’s not the substance use issue it’s the living with the stress of of loving someone who’s struggling you know would someone would say Financial spending issues or process addiction it’s the loved ones around all of those things right the family members have their own acute and post-traumatic stress with those events that phone call is life-threatening to a parent to a sibling to a family member right that is the definition of part of the diagnostics for you know traumatic stress you know life-threatening repetitive conditions you know these things don’t happen in isolation so really being able to look at this collaboratively as a community um and and being able to do two things one to really look at your community and how it spends its tax dollars because the circles back to the conversation right Insurance commercial insurance base rates are based on whatever the Medicaid rates are for your locality as a minimum a lot of Contracting is done initial those those lobbed rates that providers get initially are usually 30 to 40 percent above whatever the base Medicaid rate is in your ZIP code right which generally isn’t enough um to entice enough providers to do Medicaid alone let alone highly complex services that include serving families with a portion of the margin that’s reinvested in the community right so getting involved and Brandon knew this was going to happen getting involved on that level locally of of where your tax dollar is being invested and advocating for that and also advocating to the payer you know your your commercial insurance whether you’re going in network or out to say what’s available to me as a family member and taking advantage of every inch of that because there are services that are available reaching out to the community and educating yourself about who are the resources even if you’re not experiencing it or a family member isn’t experiencing that just understanding what your resources and how do I get involved how do I support my community in its health because no Community is without impact of Behavioral Health need it absolutely you know I always love talking with you because I have thought bubble questions and you just answer them in real time and I think you know the the takeaway for me and the family systems out there is it’s these decisions aren’t as simple as Medicaid and network out of network make a choice right it’s a very complex system that we’re engaged with not only as providers but it’s a complex system that the family you know through better questions and uh insights and knowing the community and the resources around them can be best supported when these trials and tribulations reach those family systems uh in that regard so you know reaching out uh and uh you know asking those good questions is imperative understanding the complexities of the systems as well too I think helps inform good care in what you’re looking for and at the same time you know when you talk about those Medicaid systems and what’s holding up the network Contracting the tax dollars matter you know and as a country it matters where we put those dollars and you know historically to lightly bring up the drug we’ve put it into police and you know probation and the systems and jails and prisons and so forth and uh have left little consideration for this other side of impact around assessments and these types of things that might um you know bring about greater healing not just for the individual but for communities in general and so our ability as family systems to support in network Contracting probably it’s not unreasonably low it’s probably lower than our ability as political Advocates to get out there in the community and say we demand these Services be present for my loved one or just in general for my community absolutely I think if people are able to on the most local level and again not just State your community your town your municipality to understand what are the resources that are publicly funded and how do those get decisions those decisions really get made because your votes in those cast ballots at various times through the years and through the the political Cycles have tremendous impact and if you ignore those and many people do they just focus on the ones that hit their wallet and their pocketbook or their political interests and then they skip by the rest of them and say somebody else will take care of that and and that is to me quite frankly irresponsible in that citizenship but that’s again another podcast which is something you know reintegration recoveries about citizenship but to the to the point of it really is about being active and aware and and taking the time to read those booklets I know I got mine in the mail for Colorado recently and line by line reading those those uh you know those different propositions proposition 122 I believe is one we were talking about not that long ago right things that are really important because that’s how it gets made but also understanding you’re paying these taxes and where do you want these dollars to go so talking with your community leadership groups talking with your action you know your local action committees uh you know whether it’s a municipality a town or a city or a county and an understanding because that’s where those decisions are going to get made there’s always public opinion referendum opportunity at every point and so becoming an active participant that is how you change the health of your community to say where are these are these tax dollars really being spent well in behavioral health or they just you know flowing and I have no idea where because you as a citizen as a taxpayer actually have a right to know and they do what they can in the bureaucratic systems to educate you but educated providers know that and so oftentimes call your your local Peaks call Brandon yeah because he will know the answer he’ll say actually here’s the person you want to call all you know here in Colorado Springs here’s the person you know that I know as a contact in Denver here’s the person I know in California that I I collaborate with as a provider Network that’s involved in this because you know we as providers interact with those parts of the community Through offices of Behavioral Health and City Zoning commissions and you know we build those relationships because that’s how we’re good providers but as as you know citizens in our communities and active community members public health is not someone else’s responsibility takes all of us and so being educated being invested and making a choice and not waiting until you have a need but recognizing that the needs already impacting your community yeah today and saying where do I want that to go I don’t want yes I want more safety officers in my community but I want those safety officers to be trained on deflection right to be able to have Behavioral Health assessment capacity or resources so yep I’m all about that tax dollar going to local law enforcement but I want some of that tax dollar to actually be used for training for for law enforcement to collaborate with treatment providers you know there are groups like the police treatment and Community collaborative that focus on deflection rather than diversion programming which involves connecting directly to providers so rather than arresting someone it’s actually assessing and calling a behavioral health provider in the community to say I think they actually need assessment and treatment first we’ll get to the legal impact where it makes sense but like let’s get them help now because this is where this is coming from it’s coming from a behavioral health need right and there are not just movements but there are large tax dollars being deployed for that at the federal level to to resolve some of those huge challenges the recognition of the you know billions of dollars that were wasted on the War on Drugs yeah that didn’t provide safety for a community that didn’t do anything to impact change in a community and and didn’t really produce any you know better Wellness in the community fundamentally yeah absolutely love that um always well stated I you know for the sake of time I think I want to uh just do a not a slight left here but I think you know kind of recapitulating kind of how we’ve gotten you know to this moment is that you know just understanding the the systems that are you know associated with all of these Services how they impact the services where the resources are coming from what is what we are capable of as an organization outside of those uh resources um and then I think from there a big component of this and why we’re advocating for taxpayer dollars in any direction is the community you know here at Peaks right Jason we only have so much opportunities we only have so much we can give to the family systems the individuals and so forth the community has incredible resources and if those are intact and true for the individual and then we have a place to send those individuals to Greater support to the family systems and so Port uh healing um is much more likely as an outcome in that regard or at least much more supportive of the services we’re running in the absence of those communal Services where World continues to be scary and frustrating for the individual families communities and so forth you know the outcomes are going to drop you know in that regard respectively so appreciate how just you know how we’ve gotten here and where we’ve come from and with that I think you know one of the things that I would love to talk about without talking through all of the issues maybe you experienced you know when a company calls you for Consulting Services I think one of the ones we’ve talked about is Staffing priorities and how to do that well because even if I have the resources to pay you know our staff really well and provide benefits and all of those things that are nurturing at the end of the day um if I just Brute Force say work harder you know in that regard it’s going to come at a cost and I imagine that you know allocating those resources and really understanding how to manage teams and systems is a big part of the Consulting gig and just uh hopeful for the viewers out there that we can kind of walk through that together and what that looks like within your Consulting operations absolutely a lot of the work of our engagements involves helping operations refine where they’re deploying their resources to best serve the people serving the people we all know in the provider world and some families know this that the number one thing that happens it’s people serving people it’s called Human Service for a reason right right and I’d say that not globally but to really out of tremendous humility and respect that it’s people treating people and that for an operator that their biggest expense is staff and treating them on making sure that the staff is is you know not just well trained but maintains competence and grows skill level and and continues to evolve and grow their ability to be healthy to meet the needs of the people they serve the healthier the organization’s staff the higher quality services are possible for an organization and so the investment of any wise organization is their staff um the challenges with that is it’s not very attractive when the pay rates are significantly lower in Behavioral Health across the board compared to other Healthcare Enterprises and other jobs you know when it pays as much to be a manager at McDonald’s as it does uh you know when it really pays three times as much to manage a McDonald’s drive-through as it does to to be a front line technician on a second shift at a treatment center that’s sad when you can get better benefits because Workforce is so challenged working at Starbucks um and not have to deal with as much stress so but you’re still dealing with the public right and some probably people who need treatment as your consumers the reality is that that’s really challenging to recruit highly trained staff so our education systems have been challenged for years to make it attractive to become trained to become not just clinicians because that’s the the glory I want to be the therapist the Healer but every level of Behavioral Health or different Workforce Pathways and so being able to think of it as human capital investment in human Capital Management uh you know is the modern day for human resources and really being able to see the people as the primary value of Service delivery the challenge is when rates are low businesses can’t afford to pay Beyond a certain point so it becomes harder to attract and retain people let alone this work does come with a compassion cost you know compassion fatigue empathy fatigue lead to burnout and and every job class has their capacity for that in different types but the helping profession of helping people who were under duress and sick who are challenged who are behaviorally outwardly struggling and asking for help by acting out as their primary mechanism does come at an investment so developing Workforce is a tremendous need and there is a humongous Workforce challenge that’s been building for decades and this stems back to prior to Managed Care organizations coming together and trying fixing costs and Behavioral Health Care it really stems back to the early 80s really the 70s at some level with that where the bar has been set incredibly low and it’s harder for employers to push that bar up to be able to adequately compensate people to invest in their staff health and to do the best that they can to to address the workforce challenge when people can you know really get to a place in their pathway of again making more managing a warehouse than they can working in a treatment center serving someone in their community and as a participant program it’s really sad and extremely challenging so being able to have more dollars available invested in Education and Training outside of the treatment centers you know for highly trained staff to be available as one one part so those efforts uh you know by decision makers at different levels federal state local uh you know about you know tuition remission and reimbursement are really important because it does allow people to then you know save money and keep growing individually but for the workforce challenge really encouraging people to look at the helping professions and and to look at them honestly and not to to make them more attractive requires again pushing back on your tax dollars and where they’re spent pushing back on the payers to say well how are we supposed to provide highly you know highly reimbursable care when you won’t negotiate values based rates for us to be able to produce quality outcomes at increasing levels over time they’re all interconnected so again to your to your point in question the workforce challenges are real and and very difficult so those of you who have an interest in Behavioral Health call your local treatment provider and say are there opportunities for me to volunteer to find out if I might like to do this because most organizations have some volunteer capacity and you can get exposed and see is this something that I actually would enjoy because the compassion satisfaction is the part we also measure in our work of being able to say why do I do this work and what do I get out of it besides a paycheck it’s saving people’s lives seeing people grow it’s being able to you know almost 31 years later you know have a guy who was a real challenge for his community causing all kinds of trouble go through a treatment process and then years later be invited to a podcast like this to share how we serve the community together you know the reality of of That’s The Passion of the work that we do we get into this because we want to help people individuals families ourselves we want to make the world a better place so you know again being an advocate of the concept of citizenship it really is getting getting involved and exposing yourself and say where can I volunteer and it’s not the local Treatment Center is there a local Council on Behavioral Health that I can get involved in maybe it’s not substance use maybe a challenge you’ve had is depression and maybe there’s you know volunteer opportunity somewhere in there where it’s Manning a phone to be a resource when a family member calls says how do I find treatment right the communities have these resources you know and so getting involved and not just giving of yourself but getting involved and exposing yourself as part of that yeah absolutely and you know with that you know it is it is election season it is uh proposition season all these things coming up here on November 8th that you know here in Colorado and certainly across the country in that regard and and I was reading something the other day on an article on psychiatrists I think it was something like some absurd number like 60 of psychiatrists are 55 years and older I mean we have a massive psychiatric Gap you know coming in the background in that regard and you know I I’m hopeful for the voters to hear me clearly on this it’s it’s it’s there’s many challenges but if we don’t start today and keep pushing into the Health Care system not just meant the medical side but certainly the Behavioral Healthcare side we are going to be in a a terrible Jam here in the next five to ten years and you know your vote matters and your interest in where the taxable dollars goes and it doesn’t matter what side of the political coin you sit in on site you know in America it’s about your community at the end of the day and like you’re City and I thought it was eloquently stated we support local law enforcement we also support training around that to nurture the potential issues to you know talk to create deflection motivations versus you know the other possibilities within the system and the Divergence programs that have historically existed so no absolutely it’s it’s you know it’s now more than ever and there will be more press and there’ll be more impact and the the traumatic stress that the world has experienced in the last several years is bringing what was already a rising tsunami of Behavioral Health need as we continue to progress as communities through the coveted pandemic and to towards recovery States because we’re still in the disastrous phase technically yeah you know as we get into the recovery phases the the mental health need and the impact is going to continue to rise across you know the world and so communities so to your point it takes 12 years to train a psychiatrist that takes that four years of pre-med that four years additional after for medical school and then another four of residency and training to be to be a psychiatrist out there serving communities you know we have to do this it takes you know four and a half to six years to get an initially trained Master’s level clinician uh not fully licensed that’s another couple years on top of it right right of supervision and and guidance and mentoring um you know and and there are Pathways there are communities where you know peer advocacy movements and and various levels of opportunity Food Service uh on LinkedIn the other day in a a a culinary expert that worked in an organization that we served years ago um really he left a very lucrative corporate culinary training job to work in a treatment center because he wanted to do this work with people and serve a team that was helping people in his community and it wasn’t about money and he got paid well but you know he makes you know made five times what he was making in the corporate world and said ah I want to do something meaningful that that has that compassion satisfaction right that I can’t get from a dollar that really is about that connection yeah you know so to that that connection back to it’s all about relationships yeah you know it’s all about our connectedness in the world uh and to those things and so you know that political motivation and that Workforce Challenge and meeting that is something we need to invest in now and I know that there will be a generation of epidemiologists that will come as a result of the last two years right and as much my hope is and although it’ll be a long ways out there’s going to be a generation of people willing to to participate in Behavioral Health as well but the need gap is actually very real for organizations today we can’t increase access to Services if we don’t have staff to serve Beyond a certain point and the community needs going to keep Rising um so being able to do that now so those of you who are listening to this podcast or family members who are considering Human Service Double Down level down now double down let’s triple down I’ve got a sake of it and see where it takes us and you know I think you know kind of coming to the end of the time here and want to be cognizant of time as as you know the kiddos on the Facebooks and so forth and everybody watching you know do three seconds at a time and we’ve given them thousands of seconds at this moment so uh but with that I think it’s you know it’s easy sometimes to sit back wax political talk about the problems that exist you know move through some solutions with it and then kind of put our hands up and say well that’s all we’re going to do you know we’ve talked about how big the community part of this journey is for Behavioral Health Providers for re-emerging into the community from the person who’s suffering from you know mental health episodes behavioral issues substance use disorder and so forth and um you know the thing that I really admire about you Jonathan is is your ethics around all of this you’re not only talking the talk but you’re walking the the walk at the same time too and you know I know I recently learned this about you know you uh today actually you know around the foster care you know being a foster care family in a setting and contributing to your community in that sort of way and I would just love to for the viewers to hear more about that advocacy at the community level from a foster care standpoint um you know kind of maybe what led you to this uh as a contribution to the community and what you’re seeing um of value in your service and maybe call on you know some viewers out there to maybe take these similar steps that you’ve taken as well I really appreciate that so as Brandon uh acknowledge and thank you for that uh my my wife and I are our foster care providers in our community uh and uh open our home to uh children of a certain age and opportunity to really serve them to help bridge their need gaps to be restored to their families and their communities uh you know part of the motivation for us as a family to do that is our belief in that that every child deserves an opportunity for a loving home uh and that if we’re going to heal communities you know for me personally I grew up in a neighborhood that had several Foster Care Homes and and I you know through my own circumstances almost faced a similar challenge due to health challenges in my family system where you know that was a real possibility for my brothers and I uh and so very young I had decided earlier that that was going to be a pathway that I would pursue for me as a behavioral health care provider you know working in substance use Mental Health and and you know through the last 27 years of my life and ongoing for the next number of decades part of the satisfaction for me is the work that I get to do as a therapist as a consultant as a provider but part of the satisfaction for me is being able to serve in my community locally to really make a difference in in someone’s lives to give back in a different way for all of those people who contributed to my life no matter how small that contribution was to to focus that effort and share that unconditional love and positive regard and give someone else an opportunity as well so for for me you know and my wife that’s part of that motivation is to really give you know not just a child the children an opportunity to have a different experience you know we’re trained to have a healthcare providers my wife is a a licensed marriage a family clinician an addiction therapist as well and and Trauma trained and is a trauma therapist and so our our background in training as providers is one part but our commitment to it was really about you know giving people an opportunity to have a different experience to know that something else is possible and not just hope but to really share that relationship and build a lifelong relationship with them um you know so in the children that we’ve been privileged to serve and in our process as foster care providers that’s that’s been really the greatest reward is to to sow seeds and to fertilize the soil of their future growth uh you know within the community to give them an opportunity that they weren’t able to have for whatever reason um and you know to to do our best to show them something different something possible uh we’re human beings we’re far from perfect I tend to curse quite a bit you know which our kiddos sometimes get along as we serve teenagers most often and uh you know I’m a human being but to show them that you can have a meaningful life and that it comes from you know self-care and comes from you know balanced mental health and behavioral health and wellness and that that it’s possible and fun and it isn’t just nonsense and that you know somewhat because of the work that I get to do they’re exposed to therapy probably more often than they want to be whenever they’re providers but in that sense you know we’re we use the term aunt and uncle uh you know they have parents whether they’re a part of their lives or not and so we’re part of their lives in that capacity the the community service aspect for us and for me and for others is that you know there are tremendous opportunities within Foster Care Systems and tremendous need for even volunteer opportunities you know to you know explore providing you know being a foster care provider such as my wife and I are but even at less intensive levels of being a volunteer in an organization uh you know that has me being willing to you know if you love baseball uh you know go coach you know some foster care kids on how to play baseball you know if you love golf go do that if you you know if you love macrame and sewing you know sew some blankets sew some clothes like you know it sounds silly and it sounds hokey but the reality is that organizations need more than money they need people that the healing that that these you know children in these families deserve a need comes from other human beings as we said so there are lots of ways to volunteer you know they’re I was giving an example before uh you know we kicked off this discussion of you know there are tremendous needs ruining kids age out of Foster Care Systems when they become 18 and they’re not 21 yet they’re still have resources but to to volunteer to open your home to volunteer to to be a respite provider to you know volunteer to be a coach um you know to to become somewhat trained and be able to say yeah you know we’ll have kids who don’t have a home to go to at the holidays we’ll welcome them into our home and and share that with them because there are those kids that age out in the system that that don’t have families or their friends families aren’t healthy and they they need to step away from them but they still don’t have resources to be able to do that so to be a part of a community for us a big belief is that we want our lives to be better and we want our future to be better for our children and the children of others is to to invest in healing those communities who are through you know impact and for us this is a way to do that so I you know certainly encourage you to to Google your local foster care organizations and find out where there’s some volunteer opportunities to explore it to consider it you know to to look at training to look at you know what some of those opportunities are and if that’s you know uh not something that’s attractive to to think about rather than donate just a good will to donate those clothes your kids have outgrown or no longer wear to a Foster Care Organization because there’s a child somewhere in need beautiful well I greatly appreciate that before I take us out on this road we got this camera here that’s been staring at you the whole time hopefully you can look into it to the you know the viewers out there and support of the organizations who made me in need of C4 consulting services and uh you know let them know how to find you guys where to look for you and uh yeah take us out there absolutely so uh best way to get a hold of us is our website www dot the letter c the number four dash consulting.com lots of ways to reach out requests of information blogs all kinds of things team profiles but even if it’s you’re not a provider and you’re just a person in a community looking for a resource part of the four C’s you know our four C’s from the foundation through the Consulting organization are convening collaborating Consulting and conferencing and and convening and collaborating you know lead us to Consulting and so Consulting isn’t just about organizations it’s about resources in the community our our Consultants are across the country in 19 States and have resources so please don’t hesitate to reach out for help terrific all righty Jonathan thank you so much for being on here with us today uh Jason though quite I hope you learned a ton because you know I’ve given you a ton of tangents and meetings and otherwise in our organization and I cannot state it ever as eloquently as he just did you know in regards to you know the trials and tribulations we’re experiencing as an industry and so forth so if anything hopefully you got a good kick of oh that’s what Brandon’s been talking about all these times so either way appreciate you being here as always Jason and for the viewers out there thanks so much for joining us we hope this episode was informative about our industry its complexities all of its moving part but hopefully the takeaway at the end of the day is that we have the power as a voting Community to ensure that our communities are healthy and whole and there are ways to acknowledge that and hold our Representatives accountable to that um so let’s get to work and hold them accountable this November uh in that regard again Brandon Burns chief executive officer for Peaks recovery centers uh signing off here please look us up on the Facebook the tick tocks the twitters all of the social media assets out there we’re on them somewhere at any given time and until next time thanks for sitting with us hopefully you’re done with your popcorn at this point we’ll see you next time

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Episode 75GGRIT – Choose To RiseWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/Ff4O_Zg8MnsListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, we have an extraordinary guest, Meghan Buchanan, an aerospace engineer, adventure athlete, and motivational speaker who vulnerably shares how she has overcome the challenges of being diagnosed with dyslexia. This inspiring conversation helped us remember that life is about the journey, not the destination and that we have the choice every day to dig in, grit it out, and get better at dealing with any challenge. Meghan hopes to inspire and teach others to apply GGRIT to reach their full potential.

Talking Points1. Meghan’s story and dealing with dyslexia 2. Overcoming the shame 3. The breakdown of GGRIT 4. The importance of recovery and reflection 5. What’s next? 6. How do you find purpose and meaning? Quotes

”GGRIT is gratitude, growth, resilience, integrity and tenacity. I have found that those 5 things got me through dyslexia, got me through engineering, got me through being a female in engineering, got me through injuries, got me up a mountain. And I truly believe when I talk to people now is using those 5 components, those tools of GGRIT, they can get through any challenge in their life. ”– Meghan Buchanan

Episode ResourcesMeghan Buchanan’s Website – GGRIT

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 75 Transcriptshello everyone welcome to another episode of Finding Peaks I’m Jason friezma Chief clinical officer of Peaks recovery centers here in Colorado Springs and also location in Denver um joining me is my co-host and CEO of Peaks recovery Brandon Burns and we have a very special guest today who I’m really excited to introduce Megan Buchanan she is an aerospace engineer an adventure athlete and a motivational speaker and but her largest claim to fame is she was the 1992 class or school student body president of Woodland Park High School where I attended so that’s a really big deal go Panthers right I think they won no football games the entire time we were in high school if I remember right but we tried really hard anyway Megan I do want to welcome you uh to finding Peaks and I really want to publicly thank you for taking your time to join us today on this episode to kind of talk about you and your life and and your Many Adventures thank you I so appreciate the opportunity and it’s lovely to see you again and yes we did have the most consecutive losses but I just went to homecoming and apparently the Woodland Park Panthers are winners now so yeah good to see that it’s a it’s a pretty big deal so um you’ve you’ve created kind of a company and a movement or something called grit um and it comes from uh your experiences as uh well just growing up and having to overcome some learning uh disabilities and I was wondering if you’d take a minute and kind of talk about them yeah I mean absolutely I um yeah I actually was diagnosed with dyslexia um luckily when I was seven years old and especially back then there wasn’t a lot known about it and we still have so many people that aren’t diagnosed and and even when you are diagnosed and you know what’s going on with yourself it’s still a very very challenging time as a child a young adult and into adulthood um but I had parents that knew I was smart and there was something wrong I couldn’t quite spell we we went and got me tested and we’re so sorry Miss Buchanan your your daughter’s dyslexic she won’t achieve much academically and my parents are like uh forget that my my father was a Rhodes scholar to MIT my entire family was very cerebral very very smart so they knew that that wasn’t the answer for me and so my mom sat me down and just said you know sweetheart you can be anything you want to be you are just going to have to work harder than everyone else and that starts today in this house so I didn’t know any different I just knew that I had to work hard for what I wanted and my dad was in Aerospace I wanted to be an aerospace engineer I love space um but it was a challenge but I set the goal and um you know Elementary School High School wasn’t as difficult for me because I could just listen and absorb and got great grades when I went to college I was a whole different thing I could not keep up with the reading and it was a struggle um I’d like to talk to and share with people now I mean I did I had to take calculus too like three times and and if you want something you dedicate you get back up and you try it again yeah you fail you get back up you try it again and you don’t give up and to me getting through engineering school becoming an aerospace engineer really came from that drive I learned very very young um from having dyslexia and not and and I felt I didn’t have a choice but of course you have a choice to me I didn’t have a choice but to dig in and keep going and so As I Grew Older um I always found myself in that Outdoors even as a child that was my release that’s where I felt naturally good at something that’s where I could be myself that is where I wasn’t ashamed of myself and so that Outdoors um component really kind of went hand in hand and so as I I started hiking and doing more and getting into these mountains I I was thinking back of where did I get this crazy insatiable drive to keep climbing more and more Mountains and and I trace it all the way back to being that young child um you know diagnosed with a learning disability I called a learning difference and really becoming a part of who I am to take on the next challenge and so I I did find myself um going for the bigger mountains and bigger mountains until you know I just um summited Everest on May 12th and I held a nice little sign at the top that said dyslexia gave me Grit and that Grit is two G’s it’s gratitude growth resilience integrity and tenacity and to me I have found those five things got me through dyslexia got me through engineering got me you know through being a female in engineering got me through injuries got me up a mountain and I I truly believe in what I talk to people now is using those five components those tools of grit to get through any challenge in their life and that would be quite a bit okay
did you have any well yeah I was I you know I love the concept of grit and I uh certainly love uh the the energy behind it and where the momentum of this uh podcast is going but I was curious you know kind of going back to you know I I was fortunate enough to be able to complete something like the calculus series I landed on philosophy not aerospace engineering but you know I remember just you know uh my own personal grind and going through calculus as a series and that sort of thing but you know before you knew grit as a philosophy what were some of those more foundational uh building blocks for you before you could you know give grit to the world you know going into that you know uh integral calculus course uh what what kind of sets you up not to be defeated within that moment prior to the recognization that maybe grit is the real thing happening here that’s an excellent question and and I attribute that to my parents um I am so grateful to have had two parents that saw my potential and would not allow me to give up on myself and they were that voice for me and helped me build my confidence but then taught me to be that voice for myself until I could take that on and so you know through school there’s probably a lot of crime and frustration and again you know you think about it too for for anyone with a challenge when they’re really young how lucky I was to have two parents that supported me yet I still felt so much shame and and I felt stupid and I felt hopeless at times so you think about kids who don’t have that support structure how overwhelming that is for them and you do have to learn to be that voice for yourself and a lot of it this term fake it till you make it I think that’s really kind of once I left high school and was on my own I still didn’t fully feel I did not feel um uh super confident but I had this mindset I’m just gonna pretend I do I’m gonna fake it till I make it until that push becomes a pull and then you’re pulling yourself through it and so it is that mindset I think my parents taught me of always looking forward and always taking another step forward if it is something you want and they also taught me to reevaluate just because it’s a goal at some point we change we grow are you doing it just not a stubbornness or ego do you still want it and if you want it then make change to make it happen and keep moving forward get back up and just that enough helped me take it to the next levels and then as an adult the more I started working oh my gosh my first job I was like I will never make it as an engineer I’m still not smart enough I can’t believe I got my degree that’s the mindset you’re thinking of but as the years went on and I worked I was like is it just it’s a lot of imposter syndrome I think we all have two I’m like my I apparently I did good I got I got a really good score this year what’s happening and so I finally realized I’m good at what I do and so and that’s where and then when I I started um you know climbing more and people just started asking more like man you have such grit you really stick to something I did start thinking I’m like what why is it why do I do that and then I traced it back and and a lot of it’s to to luckily the amazing parents that I had yeah I appreciate that and that shared experience and for passing the mic back you know to Jason I I know we’ve talked about it on this episode I think it comes up for a lot of people in this world and I think you’ve brought it Forward beautifully it’s not so much the destination it’s okay to have the destination out there but along the way the journey is the most valuable part and it’s going to have all these ups and downs and components uh with it the the important thing that I take away from what you’re sharing with us is to not get defeated right to pick the you know oneself back up and to experience that pull forward rather and recognize um out of that our own empowerment within this and our capabilities uh that we have to actually nurture something like that and I also love for you know in working in a substance use disorder space in a mental health you know space in that regard the the uh um man I’m trailing off here I’m forgetting where I was going to take this but um overall just I think it’s important for people to hear who feel like I cannot possibly get out of this moment that I’m in uh to hear that uh there are possibilities and that we own that power I think collectively as individuals and that’s where I was going with it appreciate the viewers being patient with me having a family system in the background to support and nurture a child who’s going through these struggles and that’s such a beautiful part of your story to hear the parents really operating in the background you know just being coaches and support systems while you’re going through these challenging times and through that process of discovery oh my gosh and what you’re saying just made me cue in on two uh so much of grit is personal ownership it is it is the biggest part of it to understand how much power and choice you actually have in life and and we all get bogged down with well I can’t it’s not my fault or I have to do that you don’t have to do anything like you have once you take ownership of what is happening even the the challenges the horrendous things I am about turning your narrative around and taking ownership of it this life is hard it is constantly throwing you stuff and so instead of instead of wasting your energy on I can’t believe this happened why did it happen to me I don’t forget it it’s happened it’s in the past this is life it is constantly throwing things at you take your energy into this has happened what am I going to do about it now and and I always tell people even just getting back up you have to sit back down that was a step get back up take one step forward and that only what is happening to you and deciding that you are going to take control of it is so powerful and we’re skipping way ahead here but I have to tell you one of the most amazing moments I had while actually climbing Everest was it was around the the Hillary Step and the sun was just like it was just starting to break and you are literally at the height that planes fly and to the microscopic level of every single second I was making the choice to keep moving forward I like it was this profound moment of at any point I could a hundred percent turn around I have the choice and every movement I made was a choice I was making to move forward and it really I mean I think it relates so well to life of every tiny step you make you do have the power in that and sometimes that power isn’t asking for help sometimes that power is I’m deciding I’m just going to stay right where I am until I catch my breath but it but it is truly an analogy of how we own every second in our life or we could choose to own it yeah Jason that that warms my existential philosophical heart so thank you for that feedback absolutely yeah
I mean I Megan I’m already feeling motivated uh just sitting here uh a little bit in we didn’t get a chance to talk before the show but my wife is actually a teacher for kids with dyslexia like she’s a master’s degree to teach specifically kids with dyslexia and uh both my kids have struggled with it as well and um and then sitting in this field uh you know we we kind of are going through a transformation as well as kind of a company and I think as a whole um industry and looking at addiction as just a broader piece of the or as a part of the wider envelope of all mental health and it’s all just kind of suffering and you know when you’re talking about uh in second grade being diagnosed with dyslexia um there’s a lot that’s a hard thing for a little kid this tall to kind of walk through and experience and and the shame um I I I’ve sat with so many clients who call themselves stupid still or call themselves you know much worse things than that and really become defeated and have trouble kind of showing up for themselves like that and I and I do Wonder um if you can maybe share a little bit of like before your diagnosis that seems like it was freeing even though for a second grader that’s probably difficult to understand but how did how did you like I I want you to talk specifically about overcoming those that shame those those really negatives that negative self-talk that came with that yeah actually um the story of how we found out is actually I think back about it as an adult and I’m like man that was messed up but but it didn’t for some reason it was just something that happened but you know in second grades when we really start spelling and and that’s when you go through an elementary school and the teachers have you stand up and spell and I actually started reading at age three with my family I have an older brother and a younger sister but they are not affected by dyslexia and so one of us was the the odd one out and um I would I remember I would try my mom would work with me to spell and I I we’d work on it and work on it and the teacher would ask me to stand up and spell and I’d get it wrong unfortunately the teacher I had his name was Mr Wolf I kid you not um he was not a good man and he did not like me because I would I would not sit on his lap to go over grades and it was very very quiet but my mom always taught me this is not a good man I agree oh he wasn’t enough he did not like me and he actually started beratin
verbally abusing me he would call me idiot stupid [ __ ] he would sit me in the corner right messed up I had so I stopped reading I refused to read and then my mom was like what is going on and so she took me to the specialist and when I was tested and that’s where they they figured it out uh later that bad man was arrested for other charges um but luckily I mean I was verbally abused only uh but that is how we discovered and so you I was absolutely verbally abused for quite a while by him and those voices are very hard to get out of your head I will always have that in the back of my head just talking about it like my heart literally hurts right now because the pain is real like it will never go away it’s who we are but you learn to be your voice back and the minute you know and it takes time over the years but I’m so quick anytime those negative voices come in my grip voice yells back like nope sorry we’re doing it anyway you know you you have to practice throughout your life to quiet those negative voices and you think about how you talk to yourself would you talk to someone you love like that no so why are you talking to yourself like that and that’s part of that awareness you need to have to start stopping yourself and replacing those words with the words of encouragement and you’ve got to do that for yourself hmm yeah I’m you know for me I just want to honor I just want to honor you know that those statements that um there’s just so much power on that side of empowerment and also as well too you know what we’re constantly sharing with individuals that come into our Treatment Center the family systems and so forth is that um that there is a path foreign in healing is possible and uh I just think it’s courageous to have another voice out there in the world who’s stating that these things are going to be difficult and that these things are going to be problematic and we’re going to run into issues all along the way and fear and all these things will arise but you know at the end of the day we have the internal personal power and it’s not a straightforward linear path in that regard that it has these Peaks and valleys to be consistent with the mountain themes of today as well too along the way and to expect those things as well too and to know that life is hard today and it might be great for the next seven days but on day eight something’s going to be thrown at us and how we uh are positioned in receiving that is just as important as you know the end goal right in that regard yeah like this this life is a this life is a long duration Expedition it is and you’re right there there’s amazing highs and lows and I think but and we kind of you know especially for young people now we live in a world where everything’s at our fingertips and and so easy to access and you get frustrated if things don’t happen quickly I think it’s important to set expectations with yourself from the beginning and again just like you said you need to understand that this is a life practice it is a commitment um you know climbing an 8 000 meter peak of Everest you know it takes six to eight weeks to climb because you’re going through rotations you’re conditioning yourself if you think you’re going to climb it in two weeks of course you’re going to disappoint yourself but you need like all the work that you’ve you’ve taken to build up your skills and build up your resistance so that you are in a place that you can can endure that long duration Challenge and I kind of see our life leading up to where we are is all that conditioning it is a journey and and you know I I thought too I I work a full-time job but then there’s all the training for Everest and I’m trying to do grit and help others realize this on the side so I’m I’m so busy all the time and I thought once I submit Everest oh my gosh I’m gonna feel so much more relaxed I’m gonna have a little more free time I got back and it didn’t happen I I felt no relief I and then I got a little depressed over it I was like oh my God like if I’m not happy that I did that like what am I doing and I had to do a lot of soul searching but the thing that I really realized going back to what you were saying earlier because I’m not about the summit I’m about the journey because I figured out yeah yeah like like I love the growth and learning about myself and challenging myself so just hitting that one high that that isn’t enough like I love the journey and where it takes me and once I realize that then I felt more relaxed I’m like okay I get it I get where I’m at and I’ll keep moving forward yeah at Mount Everest in that regard right it’s just a peak along a journey of many Peaks right yeah it is so that’s I mean that was beautiful yeah I’m asking questions
on my lesson so that you don’t actually have to climb Everest you got to figure out what you’re everyone’s got to figure out what their own Everest is mine was a bit extreme yes
so I I did I did I did want you to kind of break down just quickly kind of each of the elements of grit um and and what really stands out to me um is the Gratitude one if I like they all are really important but um at Peaks we start a lot of our meetings with people going around and sharing their gratitudes um and and really having gratitude is the solution for a lot of different things it can help stop rumination uh if you can’t get these negative thoughts that you’re talking about out of your head um if you can take a moment and find some things you’re grateful for or if you’re laying in bed at night and you can’t fall asleep it’s great to sit and think of things you’re grateful for until you fall asleep it it’s pretty remarkable uh as a tool but I I would love for you to kind of break down uh kind of your five elements of grid and and how you came to those and I love what you said because it’s exactly right there’s a reason gratitude is first and grit and it’s my base camp because just like you said you you can be in the most dire of situations and if you can find one thing you’re grateful for that sets your intention and your spiral up and when you can hold on when you have nothing else to hold on to if you can hold on for what you are grateful for at that very very moment that really gets you through the night and and that has been oh my gosh she I tear up again ah I mean that that has been my Foundation is those moments where you know any of the the as being a kid trying to get through or engineering school when I was on academic probation for just thinking like I’m I’m such an idiot why am I doing this you know I I’ll never make it and then focusing myself back on I am grateful to be loved I’m grateful to be smart I can do another I can do this you know and you just hold on to where you’re at and for anyone the negativity if you start to think of the great the things you’re grateful for it helps spin your thoughts into positivity so the next step then is growth and for us for us to change we have to be willing to grow um for us to find our full potential we need to change and grow growth hurts you have to be willing to be vulnerable you have to be willing to maybe feel like an idiot sometimes when you’re doing something new and that’s that pain of growth but I guarantee when you put in the work you come out of it a different person than when you started there is one day you wake up and whatever you’re trying doesn’t hurt anymore because you’ve gotten better you have to be willing to grow and and withstand the pain of growth to take yourself to the next level or reach your full potential so then resilience is the next one and in order for you to be able to get through growth or struggle you need to build up your resilience and and be willing to keep marching forward and I’ll talk about tenacity in a minute but they are different resilience is that ability to withstand what hurts what challenges you and keep going and I think that’s you need to you need to build up that that resilience and that resistance within yourself and that is a practice over time and you get better and better and stronger and stronger and every time I see a new challenge now my first thoughts are like all right this is gonna hurt but I can’t wait to meet me on the other side of it because you do get better and you actually look for challenge so resilience of being able to withstand that struggle is very important and you can get better and better at it out of all of this I put Integrity in there because that’s something I was raised on and that’s really important to me you think of Integrity as like oh being honest with others you need to be honest with yourself and I I think that fine taking that ownership and accountability is extremely important to take yourself to the next level and where you want to be in life um and I think holding others accountable um standing up for others and being impeccable with your word and again that’s to others and being true to yourself um really has held myself my feet to the fire I find myself many times especially with a learning disability maybe wanting to make excuses um and when you hold yourself accountable it allows you to focus your energy on actually Solutions and not the problem and then the last one to wrap it up is tenacity where all of this cannot be done if you don’t have that fire in your belly and that willingness and that drive to take yourself through all of this and so being tenacious having positivity also that you can fake it till you make it if you have to sometimes to get you through but you find that when you share your tenacity and energy with others they give it right back and every time I talk to a group they literally end up inspiring me right back and it feels I mean I get I get two times back what I gave and those to me are the tools to really I mean bring you to that next level and reach your full potential as a human being
yeah absolutely I I really appreciate it it’s interesting you know when I was going through your grit Concepts um uh in preparation for this uh the Integrity one um it was the one that I’m like okay that’s a curious one for that because it but I think it’s such a powerful thing and I think it’s I think there’s an engineering component to Integrity too because it means wholeness right or Oneness like there’s not like it’s they’re under crack there isn’t a there isn’t a hole anywhere because that if the if a piece or a part lacks integrity the Integrity of the whole structure or whatever is is in Jeopardy and I I think that’s a powerful piece of that uh great concept actually and it’s a good vowel to put into uh you know something I needed a valve for sure yeah yeah
no but no no you’re right you’re right and it does um you know and again I think a big part of it is for how we hold ourselves accountable and and you know and especially with recovery too if you you can’t really be honest with yourself and call yourself out you know you’re you’re gonna slip into excuses you’re gonna you’re gonna slip into shortcuts and in the long run that doesn’t get you there you have to put in the work and you have to be honest with yourself and when you’re honest with yourself then you actually start to learn to accept yourself and then you’re honest with others because you aren’t ashamed anymore um you aren’t embarrassed you aren’t trying to embellish um you know I think from having learning disability I was always a Storyteller I probably embellish things a little bit growing up and maybe instead of three or four there are five or six or whatever it was because I I never felt good enough and as I got older and older it’s been a work in progress and I’ve I’ve got really The Four Agreements be impeccable with your word that was really important to me and so it was a daily practice of like don’t exaggerate let’s just call it how it is and you get better and better but you still work on it as an adult and it was on I I finished Everest this year but I was on it last year for seven weeks we’re about to go for Summit bid and all of our Sherpa got covered so after a year two years of training on the mountain seven weeks all the money all the time Expedition done we had to go back home so I had to come back and train again and go but when I was there I remember I was so exhausted my body was just uh like just deteriorating from being at that high altitude for so long I couldn’t keep weight on I was so weak and I was considering doing Everest and lotsy which is right next to it it’s gonna be more money but other people were doing it and well I should do that because if I don’t it wouldn’t be this good and it was that moment I caught myself and I was like what is wrong with you and I’m like so seriously Megan and and I yeah I was having this talk out loud with myself I’m like seriously climbing Everest is that’s not good enough you’re not good enough and I’m like you need to get your crap together you are not climbing moti you’re good enough and and I at that moment I’m 48 now at 47. I was finally the last piece in my life fully good enough for myself and and I’ve been living this amazing journey and working on this for so long but that was the final piece at 47. so everything I’m sharing it doesn’t happen overnight and everyone’s journey and experience is different but those all those scars as a little kid with dyslexia I I mean it is an amazing moment I finally I’m finally free to fully love myself which is an amazing feeling but it’s been a lot of work and I’m grateful for every moment of it to get to this point
a completely beautiful tangent and it reminds me of of our race this week and Jason uh I’m doing the marathon Jason’s doing the half marathon both uh equally challenging events here yeah and Breckenridge Colorado and you know the thing that comes up for me and just hearing that story I was getting a little Misty in my own eyes here as well too because it’s so inspiring to think like what has held this together for me so as I get closer to the marathon as you know you know in these tougher races you taper down at the end and that’s like the hardest thing to do and then when you’re in that taper mode and reflection period for me I’m just watching all these fascinating you know Marathon athletes in the world do all these incredible things and I’m thinking I’m going to do this in three hours and 30 minutes and I watch all these videos I’m like how do I break three hours I can’t I’m in this taper mode right and and out of that it it forms like a defeatedness attitude I want to be somewhere else than where I’m currently at and what’s been beautiful in the taper process is you know just taking a light two mile run for nine and a half minute miles you know something that would have been painful to even think about doing in the actual running parts of it but it it your journey and what you’ve stated here recently is helping me see that the thing I was actually falling back on was gratitude how nice is it to reflect on a two-mile run where I was doing 15 18 Mile runs you know a couple weeks prior to think for the first time as I was training so hard I wasn’t fully present I recognized in those moments like the resilience I’ve gained and the growth that I’ve gained that I can now go up this hill that three months ago would have just kicked my butt and here I’m in In This Moment not not breathing hard my heart rate’s lowered and it’s actually really nice and what a joy and what a blessing to be in a moment like that where the foundation of all of this the thing that I can fall back on that you’ve found filed back on that our viewers can fall back on and hold to is that strong Foundation are those moments of gratitude and then out of that I get this beautiful experience of this whole race is just about Joy it’s just about being out there and having a good time and committing to it as a project certainly but in the same way moving through it not as an end goal to what’s next but for me it’s like what’s on the other side of that and where can I keep going so I just wanted to share that sort of you know pre-marathon story with you because it it is generating you know some some mistiness on my part within my tears but I think you know out of that the symbolism of grit and what you’ve brought forward is extraordinarily powerful and such a a beautiful way to see one’s journey in life like you that’s the thing that I you know especially when you’re I think uh recovery um learning disabilities anything we’re going through we we do tend to also I I’m driven but a lot of times I used I used to bowl those too like I’m like I will make this happen and you’re almost in this fight mode for so long and the thing that I had to realize to to now you know getting older and really all this coming together for me is how important it is for our actual recovery when you’re training for something your recovery I never did that when I was young there’s no recovery there’s no time for Recovery as I get older literally my body needs recovery you like life and any challenge you have you need to take those moments to look back at how far you’ve come and love yourself appreciate yourself um going back to the analogy of like now I have to stretch more and more physical therapy to keep my body in tune to recover after a climb so I can go do my next thing but really for our life and our emotional health we need to appreciate and understand how far we’ve come because when it’s just one step at a time you just look back the last step that’s all you see but when you’re standing on top of a mountain and you can see the Earth Bend then you’re like holy crap I have come a long way so I just think for everyone you need to give yourself those moments too to Pat yourself on the back appreciate how much work you’ve done and how far you’ve gone before you go back into driven mode and get to it yeah yeah absolutely I Megan I I your story on Everest too of when you’ve made the determination that you’re enough like to me like Everest feels like a side part of the conversation like it’s awesome you made it I love your sign on the top it’s so cool um but to have that moment probably not at this Summit where you’re like I don’t have to do lotsy to be enough um that feels uh it feels very powerful to me so okay no please please respond I was just gonna say no it was it was um oh man and I have this great picture I shared a friend what’s coming into the tent and I was literally like this down in the tent like crying I’ve got a picture of it was this moment where yeah I just had this emotional break and it was actually a day later when everything was canceled I was about to go up for Summit and when they told me that our Expeditions canceled everyone’s ordered off the mountain you’re dumb this year I instantly just pivoted to like well that sucks I just need to come climb it next year because honestly the the Breakthrough I had had for myself the day before it was worth every dollar every moment on that Hill it was a cathartic beautiful moment for myself and it meant so much and so when I trained a whole another year and I just went back it was a whole different experience and I was lighter and I was ready and it was almost like that mountain the the weather was amazing that mountain was like no this is your year you’re ready and so yeah it was it was a wonderful amazing moment and that inspired me even more to be able to share my experiences with people um again that you know to realize that about themselves and and understand how it is how important it is to truly accept and love yourself and it takes work
yeah loving yourself or others it’s a verb it’s like a you have to kind of do it it’s not just a feeling like it takes action it’s a verb um so if we could kind of pivot in our in our remaining time a little bit like he so now you Adventure you you are climbing the Seven Summits the tallest point in every continent and going to the polls North and South I think skiing the last degree which to my understanding is the last degree of longitude latitude right longitude latitude yeah okay so um honestly I kind of like I’m kind of skipping maybe to my next question but like what comes after this and that skips to my like your purpose and meaning in in all that like I but like you have you’ve been so driven and you have this goal and you’ve overcome so much um to get to this goal how what comes next like it’s the end is within sight um again so and then what this circle’s back to is me realizing that it isn’t about that Summit it’s about the journey for me so there’s always something next there will always be something next and that’s kind of comforting as well so um I am I will finish the seventh Summit um early December and then I will go and complete the Explorers Grand Slam with the North Pole which only 12 women have ever done I think there’s a whole bunch of us ladies getting queued up to the North Pole this year because they’ve been closed they’ll be in the spring and the beautiful thing out of all of this is I have grit now and I’m working really hard to as a dyslexic write a book that is scarier than Everest to me but really start um I do a lot of lecturing and helping to share these tools with every one you know Elementary all the way to companies and helping them find purpose and finding that grit in career or life and so grit I hope to actually become an amazing Next Step but I’ll tell you um and and this year too it was funny I was just talking with a friend I’m like yeah we should probably we should go to we should do K2 and a year ago I would no I will never do K2 now I’m like we should go do K2 but again I’m like make it what is wrong with you you don’t you’re it’s enough you know and that’s the one my mom said please yeah please don’t do K2 um but our counselor won’t do it but you know so I I am looking there’s plenty of fun stuff to go climb like how about go to Europe how about a little more in South America I don’t need to do 8 000 meters so it is a Pat about part of that that ramp down period right I need to be making smart decisions for me and where I want my life to go not driven by ego which is very hard I think when you are in this world and it is always what’s the next thing and what’s what’s the bigger thing you’ve also got to be really smart I mean the world just lost Hillary Nelson um yeah last week which was devastating and she’s amazing such an icon such an inspiration to so many women and so I think also we we need to think about what is the end game and then plan according to that so I definitely have several things on my list as far as adventuring that I would like to go do and I think I’m going to focus on those and and around grit I actually think about taking certain like grit tours and taking people to Trek to Everest Base Camp and learn a lot of these tools and actually just get to base camp which is 17 500 feet or doing Akin cogwa base camp but doing more Outdoor Adventures to help other people unlock you know that passion that drive from within themselves and teach them how to use Grit
I think you know it’s interesting we kind of as a as a recovery program as a behavioral health company um as we help people kind of overcome addiction depression uh manage their symptoms of bipolar whatever it is we’re trying to do always kind of on the back end of that we we are talking as an organization and we are always looking for ways to help provide our clients with that purpose and meaning like early in my career I remember I was doing a group and I I was talking about how like okay with the removal of your addiction like your life is this beautiful Blank Slate now you can paint on it whatever you would like and honestly that that created more fear like I was excited I thought hey you have this opportunity for all this meaning and actually it was the scariest part of of a recovery journey is like okay so if I don’t have my favorite coping mechanisms or if I now have the energy to get out of bed in the morning what do I do how do I find purpose and meaning and how do I make this um how do I scribe meaning to my life I guess how do I author meaning and I think it’s what I love about you and your story too of like it you’re doing this amazing thing um and it’s of your own creation it’s your own concept and it’s your own you’ve kind of reflected on how you overcame a lot of your early uh obstacles and you’ve said uh here’s how I’ve done it the this grit model and this is where I’m going to point it and I and I wonder if you can share anything about how how you found this purpose and meaning in your life because because really being a rocket scientist is rad but like you it seems like you you have so much more meaning and drive and purpose from your adventure athlete uh process so from anywhere in there feel free to respond to anything no absolutely and and again it it’s about that journey and understanding that this is a lifelong practice and and to expect that and so everything that I pushed myself through younger finally led to then you know uh actually working in engineering or taking on these mountains to finally you practice it enough and you get to a point where you feel Unstoppable in the fact of I’m gonna I will try I will try everything I will whatever I want to do I will try it and if I don’t make it that’s okay and I’ll either reevaluate and get going again or whatever it is and be and you get better and better at that and to the point that I don’t feel I ever fail I never fail because to me failing is doing something you knowingly goes against your gut that’s the only failure to me if you’re trying that is not failing you’re just learning you’re getting better and so when you can get you push yourself out of your comfort zone in the beginning and practice one step out every time it gets easier and easier until literally to the point I’m like I’ll go try whatever people are like oh my gosh what if you don’t know how to do it I’m like I don’t care and it it becomes that easy you you become comfortable with being uncomfortable it is a natural feeling you think about climbing a mountain for the the first time and I just took a person who had never been on a 14er and for everyone in Colorado knows we you know we’ve got 58 Peaks over 14 000 feet the whole way up she’s like well my my heart is racing or I’m breathing a little I’m like I’m telling you right now you aren’t normal we take our pulse I’m like you’re gonna do this when you come back down the next time you go to do it you’re going to understand this is what your body feels like and you’re going to be easier with it and then the next time and the next time and you need to be aware having the awareness of that and witnessing what is happening with yourself and pushing through it anyway to a safe amount of course but then knowing that next time I’m going to be stronger with this and it’s funny you I mean you’re talking about um you know recovery from addiction and my sister said I could share with everyone that you know she has been in recovery for 17 years and I remember when she got clean it was the same thing she had no idea what to do with herself she started knitting I swear to God she was knitting a scarf every day for like two months straight what to do then she went into she actually started running like 5K so she was obsessing with that and then she obsessed with Diet Coke and then she obsessed and it was her like she’s like where’s my rock I can’t hide under my rock anymore and and you know watching her be comfortable with who she is now tear up
she is my biggest inspiration that girl is so amazing to me and she put in the work and she works every day to remain in recovery and she is and she’ll always you know it’s got to be kind of hard to be my sister probably because I have so much yeah and she’ll be like she’ll just be like I don’t really do anything and I’m like are you kidding me I’m like you stay clean every day dude she blows my mind away she put her strength and she doesn’t give herself credit and and I have to I mean I tell her all the time what an inspiration she is to me but even those small tiny steps that is her Everest and she needs to be so proud of herself and I’m so proud of her and it’s it’s making that choice every day to push yourself one more step out of your comfort zone until again you have such ease with being vulnerable and being uncomfortable I thrive in it yeah absolutely well I I I feel like I would be remissed in this moment not to share with you you know directly Megan a hiking story that uh between Jason and I so we were doing outside Telluride of course the El diente Mount Wilson Traverse uh one of the uh you know higher ranking traverses in the state of Colorado the great traverses as they call it and the the climb up till diente across the Traverse all those things were beautiful and spiritual we’re coming down Mount Wilson we put on crampons we’re on a pretty steep slope and um you know my friend here Jason a little bit more uh abled in that moment to navigate you know the the snow sliding because it’s melting and all that sort of stuff I step out and it starts sliding Jason’s probably you know 150 yards below me now at this point and I’m scared and uh I don’t know what to do and I’m trying not to panic and I’m getting mad in my head because these guys are moving ahead of me and ultimately I I say you know what Brandon you got to do this I step out onto the snow with my crampons it slides I get scared again I lift up my other leg and I Jam the cramp on right into my calf in that moment and my and so I fall to the side of the mountain I’m holding on to a rock and I can feel the crampon stuck in my calf I’m like dude you just did this hard mountain and now you’re gonna die over this stupid thing I pull it out of my leg I can feel it leave my leg you know Blood starts oozing out I’m like oh my god did I hit an artery I’m panicking well I notice you know it’s not too much blood probably not an artery in that regard I’m yelling down I’m like Jason I’m bleeding it hurts man like I can’t do anything and he used way more colorful words at the time but even in so many words he was like Brandon Nobody’s Gonna Save you up there you got to come down now and it just clicked in me in that moment and what I think is important to recognize is like those words not being as great of a climber to that point and moment as Jason provided safety it was encouragement and allowed me to get down with some sense of confidence in a way that I had completely depleted all confidence in that moment and I bring that story to you you know want to share about our own you know kind of hiking Journeys with somebody who’s a profound you know hiker and experiencer of the outdoors but it it reminds me and you’ve shared so much of it already with your mom and your dad and your sister’s story as well too I’m just curious if you can be more you know direct with the audience about who nurtures around you what is grit right who’s in the background that you go to certainly the the family experiences are powerful but who else would you add to that and um what else would you share about the importance of those support structures around a powerful philosophy like Grit I think that’s such a great question because it’s you know it grit is definitely twofold one of it is honing in the ownership and the accountability within yourself and being that voice of inspiration for yourself and doing all these things for yourself but nothing is done by yourself you know I think about even training for something like Everest and all of the help that I get from the boot shop here who had to help like custom you know do my liners so that my orthotics would fit correctly and so that I could wear these too all my orthopedic doctors all the things I’ve broken and any strains or recovery I need to get me to a place where I can be there any friends friends who will understand that Megan can’t come to this thing today because she’s training on the mountain and them understanding I need to do that that has such value and weight of them understanding what I need to do to get to the place and not punishing me as a friend for that that love and support um again you know it’s really amazing social media I think in a lot of ways can be horrible for some people but it’s also this beautiful thing if you look for the positivity and being able to share my Journeys and then people sharing stories back like with their little kids that suffer from learning disabilities and they’re following my journey what it means to them that that keeps my fire burning like like I that kind of support is absolutely amazing people just reaching out to each other and offering a word of kindness that goes so far and so much of of grit is toughing through you know hard things but I think it goes back maybe into that maybe a little tenacy a little Integrity but it’s also appreciating every you know every tiny little bit that someone has to give in getting back and I I think I’m totally going on a tangent with that but but yeah and when you’re thinking of um saying about stabbing your leg on the mountain I mean that that’s an important thing too I love that saying is I’m like uh no one’s coming to save you you got to get yourself
yeah I love it was all out of love
really young too too sweetie I hope that on the day you’ve got to count on yourself and you’ve got to be able to get up and get yourself out of here but don’t be afraid to ask for help when you need it and take help when it’s offered and man this journey is so amazing but how much better it is with others that we can connect with and you know it us just having this discussion even though we might be talking about you know addiction recovery or learning disabilities we have so many parallels and all of us as human beings we want the same things and and you know we want we want to reach our full potentials we want to love and we want to be loved and these are things amazing discussions like we’re having right now that we can all connect on and I think having the awareness of that and appreciating that also allows a lot more happiness into your life to recognizing how many people are are I mean just want the same thing you do and how you can connect with them
yeah it was beautiful and I Megan I’m going to be really respectful of your time and I think we’re coming up on here so I want you to take a minute and um Talk specifically about your uh website and how to kind of support you and your movement and all that I’d love to hear that and I’m sure we’ll post links when we do this as well so oh that’d be amazing so yeah so I have a website and it’s g-g-r-i-t uh you can also follow me on Instagram same thing at ggrit uh on Facebook but the great thing is I will share um my training I share a lot this is actually October is dyslexia awareness month so I’m sharing a lot on that right now and I will share just the struggles I go through every day and how with grit I take myself the next step forward um there’s a lot of fun videos for hiking but then when I actually go on my Journeys around the world to do these Expeditions I take you with me and I love you know send me comments whatever you’re thinking um love love to respond whenever I can and I do of course have some GoFundMe that you can get to I raise money for for my Expeditions but the net proceeds go to learning disabilities associations because I really am trying to give back to what gave me my superpower and help people get diagnosed early with learning disabilities so that then they can work on you know taking their next steps and and embracing everything they are
and please do follow I I have I followed you for a couple years now I watched the Everest uh Everest I didn’t exactly know why you turned around uh it makes sense uh with the covet and um I just really uh your whole story and and where this is all going I think it’s really exciting and and um for those watching please follow Megan on on Instagram and and please contribute to the GoFundMe as well um so with that we will end this episode of Finding Peaks you can also follow Peaks uh on Instagram we have a tick tock account as well um other things uh please find us on Apple as well if you want to uh just listen to the audio and with that uh Brandon thanks for joining us as well and with that we will sign off

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Episode 74Proposition 122: Natural Medicine Health ActWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/emE1jdeZ9jkListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, Coalition Director for Natural Medicine Colorado, Kevin Matthews, provides us with education about the Natural Medicine Health Act (Proposition 122) on Colorado’s November 2022 State Ballot. We dive into all the essential questions circling its design to create regulated access to natural psychedelic medicines for veterans struggling with PTSD, people facing a terminal illness, and adults dealing with depression, anxiety, and other mental health challenges in a way that maximizes safety. You can learn more about the Natural Medicine Health Act and the backed-research behind natural psychedelic medicines at https://naturalmedicinecolorado.org/.

Talking Points1. What is the Natural Medicine Health Act? 2. Why is there a push for this change in legislation with natural medicines? 3. Breaking down addiction and the lack of resources and time 4. Who is this act for? 5. The regulatory process 6. Peaks Recovery’s stats on clients 7. What is the connection of natural medicines to Indigenous cultures? Quotes

”The Natural Medicine Health Act creates a state regulated system so that adults over 21 years old would be able to access natural medicine services here in this state. These natural medicines would include DMT, Ibogaine, Mescaline, not including peyote, Psilocybin and Psilocin. Individuals would then be able to access those services at licensed healing centers, or approved health care locations. They would recieve those services from trained and licensed facilitators from the state. It’s very much a therapeutic model and a closed loop system where there are no recreational or retail sales.”– Kevin Matthews – Coalition Director for Natural Medicine Colorado

Episode LinksNatural Medicine Health Act

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 74 Transcriptswelcome back to the ever exciting ongoing disruptive disrupting an industry yeah finding Peaks episode uh I am Brandon Burns chief executive officer for Peaks recovery centers your favorite host in that regard finding Peaks at peaksrecovery.com thoughts ideas insights that’s where these episodes are produced from excited to bring forward a pretty important topic today here up proposition 122 that’s going to be on the ballot measure this coming November and we’re going to have a discussion about that today and we’ve invited the Coalition director in to have that discussion with us but first and foremost the co-host of this event Clint Nicholson LPC Lac all the clinical things going to help us wrap our clinical right and left brain around this topic in that regard also joined by Kevin Matthews the uh well I just said you’re the Coalition director for natural medicine Colorado um who’s uh embracing this measure you guys are backing this measure wholeheartedly and uh bringing it to the Public’s view in this regard I think that this is an important measure for a variety of reasons we’re going to talk about the things that we’re excited about and supportive of it and we’re going to work through some of the controversies of it today and let the public come to understand and know why you guys are bringing this forward and what you believe the value of that is so welcome to the show and thank you for coming down here from Denver today absolutely Brandon Clint thank you so much for having me today you know I’m it’s nice to come down to Colorado Springs and be constantly reminded by the beauty of our state yeah you know something living in Arvada up near Denver um you know pretty close to the mountains but still tucked away in a metro area and like every single time I make this trip down south I’m just like in all like Gardner the gods is over there and of course we have the Air Force Academy which is which holds a dear place in my heart as well so it’s just nice to be here and and be in downtown Colorado Springs in your beautiful Studio thank you yeah yeah thank you so much that’s my experience as well too Denver great Metropolitan you know beautiful city but the Mounds are a little bit out there right yeah drive to them here and there yeah literally have to drive here in Colorado Springs they’re literally right there yeah they’re right there I’m a little closer to the mountains living in in Arvada which is like Northwest Denver it’s like still like a 10 or 15 minute drive to the Foothills but I think here it’s a little more accessible yeah it’s just gorgeous yeah absolutely so yeah we talk about you guys uh behind your back so we’re closer to the Front Range so uh diving right into this topic you know proposition 122 it’s on the ballot this coming November you know for me in this discussion uh again too we just want to provide feedback from an industry perspective about the value of this proposition uh for us as an industry and where this might go we think there’s a lot of positive value propositions within it um at the same time we are not the creators of it it and the voters at the end of the day are going to be the decision makers of this and we hope we can give insights into its future opportunities and why this piece of legislation can be of great value for individuals particularly subbing with you know post-traumatic stress disorder mental health disorders such as major depressive disorders severe anxiety and even possibly as well too substance use disorders at the end of the day so Kevin before we dive in all the things we think are opportunistic about this what is this measure what does it look like it’s framework and so forth give it to the viewers amazing yeah yeah thank you so the natural medicine Health Act of 2022 is on the ballot this year for the general elections here in Colorado you know we’ve been working on this for the past ah probably 18 months now there was a long process last fall late last summer and last fall where we really engaged with our community members other local stakeholders to draft a measure that we felt like was really compassionate and accessible so that coloradans would be able to access natural medicine services here in this state so the natural medicine Health act what it does is that it creates a state regulated system so that adults over 21 years old would be able to access natural medicine services so natural medicines as we’re defining them include DMT ibogaine mescaline not including peyote psilocybin and silosin and so individuals would be able to access those services at licensed Healing Centers at approved Health Care locations like palliative care Hospice of course addiction treatment centers and and in some cases in the comfort and safety of their own home and they would receive those services from trained and licensed facilitators from the state and so it’s very much a therapeutic model and a closed-loop system where there aren’t going to be any recreational or retail sales involved with this so the person wants to um get access to natural medicine services they would both purchase basically a natural medicine session where for example psilocybin would be purchased and consumed on site at these approved locations now we’re also removing criminal penalties for the personal use possession cultivation and sharing of natural medicines for adults over 21 years old because I mean especially if we consider the safety profile of medicines like psilocybin um these are substances that should not be felonized and so we feel like if folks are trying to use these medicines um to heal then they shouldn’t have to face any severe civil or criminal penalties as well gotcha yeah beautiful thank you for introducing that to the viewers out there and you know with that said we’ll dive right into it so we understand the measure now we understand what it’s at least trying to do so in this deep dive we’ll start with like why do we need it in the first place and so I’ll let you heed that question and then I think we can participate a little further in it by diving into kind of what we see as a need within our industry sure yeah it’s it’s really a great question and a very important one because we wouldn’t be advocating for this right now if it well I think I’d still be advocating for this but here here in Colorado specifically this year according to an organization called Mental Health America every year they publish an annual report basically ranking States based on mental health statistics this year Colorado was ranked the ranked last we’re the worst state in the country in terms of the number of adults that have mental or behavioral health conditions combined with the lowest rates of access to care compared to other states and then we’re also facing a veteran suicide crisis right now in this state the VA just released one of their annual reports that showed that um veteran suicides in Colorado are disproportionately higher when compared to the average across the country and so right now in this state we’re facing both a mental health and a veteran suicide crisis and so if we’re looking at the research with natural medicines like psilocybin mushrooms that’s been conducted at top tier universities across the country like Johns Hopkins or NYU there’s other universities in Europe those clinical studies are showing just how effective these natural medicines can be to treat things like major depression extreme anxiety you know PTSD suicidality right and and in some cases substance use disorders as well and so we feel like that it’s it’s irresponsible of us to wait for something that can provide such a tremendous benefit to so many people across the state and really just get folks on a path towards that path towards healing knowing this is not a it’s not a Magic Bullet it’s not a Panacea as you both know so well you know recovery takes work and and really that’s the beauty of of these natural medicines is because from a single experience or from a few experiences um if we’re looking at major depression for example folks are experiencing a tremendous long-lasting relief whereas in some cases if we’re looking at like traditional Pharmaceuticals or other types of mental health interventions you know it’s a daily process and so from a from afrom an uh using my train of thought from a an Administration perspective this is a tremendous opportunity for coloradans because it’s not something where you’re taking psilocybin mushrooms every single day right like it’s one maybe two treatments which provides months of long-lasting results when combined with therapy yeah I don’t often bring notes on this but this is an important discussion and I don’t want to say things that are wildly outside the scope of this but we just wanted to talk about uh briefly introduce two definitions of addiction in this regard the common definition from the National Institute of drug addiction Nida says that addiction is a chronic relapsing disorder characterized by compulsive drug seeking and use despite adverse consequences um so that’s a pathological description of how addiction operates within the brain right commonly within our industry we’re referring to it as a biomedical condition the craving state is rooted and that is the problem and then from there we address the treatment episode where and this won’t ultimately be you know the definition of addiction but I think it informs the potential new definition of it and this comes from Gabor mate he’s spoken about this in a variety of his books texts conversations but it’s addressed in the myth of normal which is his new book that’s out that I would recommend the viewers of this episode to check out says addiction is a complex psychophysiological process it’s manifested in any behavior that a person finds temporary pleasure or relief in and therefore craves but that they can’t give up despite the negative consequences to themselves or those around them wow now I know I’ve said a lot about this as an intro but why do we need this also because the choice model you know you made a decision to use drugs or alcohol and therefore you got addicted you know that that is nearly a ridiculous notion in our industry at this point the disease model still has an incredible amount of value it’s reduced the harm it’s increased access to care a variety of different things have come to it but they’re all types of opportunities to kind of poke holes in this and so for our industry we’re really in this transformative moment of what to do next and how to do something greater than 33 outcomes 12 months post-treatment and that’s why I introduced this other definition because we’re talking about processes and Clin just hopeful that hopefuls
can you can you help us from a clinical lens this sort of Divergence from you know pathology to processes absolutely yeah um I mean so pathology really kind of boils down to cause and effect it’s this idea that this causes this so for example with depression lack of Serotonin causes depression so what we’re going to do is we’re going to increase serotonin and decrease depression right so there’s this sort of one for one very simplistic obviously there’s a tremendous amount of nuance but that’s sort of the general gist of what a pathological sort of perspective is from the clinical or medical lens now processes are obviously just that they’re processes that things happen because of multiple factors that come together and these things happen over time over space within a context rather than with simply within the brain or simply within the environmental moment that this person is experiencing it so the way that we treat processes is from has to be much more holistic in that sense and so I know for me as a clinician anytime I there is a discussion about an intervention strategy or a potential treatment that has a process based component to it it’s very exciting because it feels holistic which is uh which is the nature of the of the suffering that we experience comes from this actual holistic model you know it’s a process that we we go through and therefore it only makes sense that it’s going to be a process to unravel that so um you know there are to your point earlier it’s not a Magic Bullet right there are no Magic Bullets you know there is no um one you know like snake oil that’s just magically gonna cure everything but it’s another way to access treatment and it’s another approach that gives me as a clinician more artillery right it’s something else for me to access that I can bring into that process space and help somebody work through whatever suffering they’re they’re experiencing in that moment so yeah is that is that okay wait a way to land the plane that I threw out uh yeah and that you know and so you know diving a little bit deeper into those therapeutic processes right that you know when we think about something like a major depressive disorder the clinical trials the researcher it is there’s an evidence-based practice called cognitive behavioral therapy talked a lot about this on past finding Peaks episodes go back in time look it up online cognitive behavioral therapy in relationship to depressive disorders is really a in the evidence of it takes 90 days to reduce the ruminating features of major depressive disorder 90 days is a really long time and again as I spoke about you could get abandonment of treatment people could lose hope in the process which could further prolong that treatment episode in those experiences and out of that when we think about it moving away from pathology into process plant-based medicines at least in the research that’s coming from John Hopkins the past research you know pre the drug war and so forth is Illuminating the possibility that Clinton Nicholson everybody could be sitting with somebody instead of taking 90 days to punch through the armor that comes about through these you know depressive disorders and you know substance use disorders can create introspection within the individual within hours right and then now because he’s just jotting down all the things that are coming out of this process right an opportunity to break through with the individual and to move through talk therapy on the other side of it in a really incredible way that’s not available to us as an industry right now is that right sized yeah so we’re a little excited about this just a little touch yeah yeah because it’s creating this opportunity right it’s another opportunity for people to heal and it’s those numbers that you spoke about earlier Colorado and um the the sort of lack of mental health supports that are existing here and the impact that that’s having on people’s lives I mean that’s devastating to hear as a clinician and so um I I’m curious uh what is what about the timing of this besides just those numbers because it does feel like there’s a sort of Pop Culture moment as well and so I’m wondering um are you taking advantage of this point in time in order to to push this forward or is it just all very happens natural and it just the the planet’s aligned and we’re good to go if I’m being radically honest I feel like that from my past work I’m a little bit at the Inception of this pop culture moment okay um so just for context there I was the campaign manager for uh for decriminalized Denver okay which uh in 2019 de-prioritized in the City and County of Denver the personal use possession and cultivation of psilocybin mushrooms um three weeks later after that successful measure which was I mean we won by two thousand votes yeah if you guys could have been there in our watch party that evening so the evening where we’re watching the results come in it was you know we were down by a seven percent deficit wow it was like 46 no to 54 yes whatever it says eight percent but like every hour and a half it was inching closer and closer and closer um as those polling those those results came in I went to bed that evening like 1am after folks had left the party like oh we have 40 000 more votes to count that election was the largest turnout for a City County of Denver municipal election in 30 years wow I like to think that that’s because we had psilocybin mushrooms on the ballot sure and for the record mushrooms actually got more vote than the mayor um which ended up going to a runoff but yeah you know you’re absolutely right Clint like like this is there there is so much in the news in culture obviously in healthcare right now all these conversations that are happening around the potential efficacy and the efficacy of natural medicines to you know to to to provide mental health treatments and so I think it’s having been you know a little bit if I’m being humble just a little bit at the Inception of the Grassroots movement right which we’ve seen over the past three years I mean goodness Oakland right away then we had Santa Cruz Detroit I went and collected signatures in Washington DC uh tremendous advocates in our nation’s capital in Washington DC um natural medicines are are fully decriminalized there so I think it’s it’s not only a combination of this this increasing of awareness around how tremendous these medicines can be especially to address mental health or behavioral health conditions I think also that Americans and this is totally my bias but you know Americans are are looking for alternative treatment options because as we’ve already discussed a lot of the traditional interventions don’t work for some people I mean 33 efficacy over uh you know a 12-month follow-up to me seems kind of low and having been someone it’s objectively okay subjectively low and having having been a person like like I can validate that because of you know I um when I was diagnosed with major depression when I was at West Point like you know I was on an antidepressant and a sleeping aid and you know I wouldn’t say that I was sad or happy it was kind of this like gray medium of neutrality if I’m just a drone walking through my life and then when I was introduced to these medicines in a very safe way um it was not it was not under a regulated or clinical context whatsoever however you know that experience having not expecting like not expecting it to be therapeutic it was tremendously therapeutic and and and basically like the intuition I got from that breakthrough experience with mushrooms was like Kev like you no longer need to be a victim to your diagnosis right you can start taking these small steps every single day to first of all jump full-heartedly on that path towards healing and then what’s the one percent every day that you’re doing to get better um and you know so you know and that’s where at least I am today personally being an advocate for this issue and an advocate for really this movement that’s been created over the past three years and arguably the past two decades um to to push this forward and just make these medicines accessible to people as many as possible in a safe way with that stated we have certainly touched on it already but as the talking point like who is this for right who is this campaign advocating for what are you guys seen and what would you like the viewers to know about that advocacy thank you yeah so so the natural medicine Health Act first and foremost is for individuals who are currently suffering from things like major depression PTSD extreme anxiety um goodness end of life distress so many folks who are seeking these medicines right now are looking at them from a palliative care perspective because they’re suffering from what’s like like a stage four cancer and and to help with that transition knowing that um you know potentially in the near future they may be severed from their mortal coil right and and their body and and to find peace in that um in that reality um now what we’re not doing is that we’re not requiring that a person has any kind of qualifying condition to be able to access these natural medicines so you don’t have to have major depression or extreme anxiety um you know there are certainly some cases and and arguably for a lot of people if you’re a quote-unquote healthy normal person which I think Michael pollen coined that term in his book how to change your mind like these natural medicines also work for healthy normal people um in in the sense of like providing more insight or more integration into their experience of being human so first and foremost knowing that we have this Mental Health crisis in the state and we have a veteran suicide crisis right now we want to make sure and and the measure and the model reflects that we want to make sure that these natural medicine services are are available to as many people in Colorado who could possibly benefit especially those who are suffering from mental or behavioral health conditions which is why um you know what’s so tremendous about this model as well is that we’re not only advocating for the creation of Healing Centers but also talking about integrating the the availability of these services with currently existing Health Care locations like palliative care like hospice like addiction treatment centers and so you know over the course of the two-year implementation period if this passes you know we really do look forward to being in dialogue with so many folks across the state who want to see these become more accessible and then especially if you’re already working with patients who are suffering like how do we bridge that 70 Gap and like you said like um you know we would you know we’re comfortable enough with the tremendous amount of clinical research that’s happened for these these natural medicines in the past 20 years to say look like if this is something that can work let’s try it and let’s see what we can do to integrate these Services into our Healthcare infrastructure and in some cases normalize using natural medicines again like psilocybin mushrooms for folks to be able to heal yeah and to remind the viewers who opponents or proponents or others have trailed off and thinking like this is just full-blown access and everybody’s just going to be doing the psilocybin every single day he you know going back to Kevin Matthews original point we’re talking about one or two potential interventions per year to the benefit of the individual trying to use these medications uh in that regard and I think that’s just poignant I want to stick that stick that bullet point with the viewers out there because we are not talking about a take-home bottle of psilocybin and unregulated access to however much you want in that regard at least through uh their therapeutic interventions like we would provide at Peaks Recovery Center and and if we’re looking at this from from an addictions perspective a lot of folks would argue that like psilocybin and other men and other natural medicines that they’re actually anti-addictive like you don’t and I’ll speak personally here like I would not like to do you know a macro dose of psilocybin every week certainly not every single day and and if you’re actually a person who you know for the very few number of folks who may be out there who like to eat mushrooms every single day you actually have to take more and more and more every single day just for it to even have any kind of a psychoactive effect and so you know the research clearly demonstrates that I mean you know these are schedule One Federal you know federally scheduled one substances right now what’s the definition of schedule one um there’s high potential for abuse and no medical value right and we know based on on the research that these are not addictive and everything is pointing to them having a tremendous medical value yeah so speaking as a just a major skeptic of literally life uh in general um I think yeah I think everything has potential for addiction because we’re just people right like we’re fallible creatures and we do crazy [ __ ] stuff sorry we do crazy stuff all the time um so I I think of things and I’m sure a ton of people out there voters everywhere are going to ask about regulation and what regulation looks like and how are we going to make sure that this is safe and what are the steps that we’re going to take and you kind of mentioned earlier um you just briefly mentioned this two-year period that is uh for sort of establishing what this is going to look like so I’m just wondering if you could speak to that a little bit more just to give a little bit more insight and some clarity into what the regulation components of this looks like sure sure so I think it would help to actually kind of give a timeline perfect for what happens when the measure passes in November okay so November 8th is election day uh two weeks later the governor would then ratify the measure so it becomes law in that moment the natural medicines that I mentioned again DMT ibogaine mescaline not including peyote psilocybin and silicon would become decriminalized across the state and then the next step there is for the governor to appoint our 15-member advisory panel that advisory panel needs to be appointed by the end of January 2023 and the purpose of that advisory panel is to make all of the recommendations for the regulated access program to Dora again Dora being the department of regulatory agencies so we have the advisory panel which is informing the state Regulators on you know what are the best practices here uh how are we considering things like affordability and accessibility what does the training look like specifically for a person who wants to get a license to become a natural medicine facilitator what are those training requirements what are the um the the legal and business requirements for someone to apply for a license to open a Healing Center so that’s a two-year process I think it’s important to distinguish that in terms of the regulated access program we’re only starting with psilocybin and silacin so by the end of September 2024 is when the state would need to start accepting applications for licenses um for natural medicine facilitators and service centers that are offering psilocybin mushrooms as a part of their treatment program and then it’s the it’s June June 1st 2026 is when the state would have to decide whether or not to actually include and regulate DMT ibogaine and mescaline and the reason for that is that we starting only with psilocybin first and foremost psilocybin really has the most clinical evidence backing it right now again from universities like Johns Hopkins and NYU and others Imperial colleges is one of those places it has the most demonstrated efficacy or potential and we also don’t want to overwhelm a state agency with creating different rules around different substances um again because that that that mechanism of delivery delivery or the administration or the the the the dispensing of these medicines might look different you know for example abigaine um is a requires a lot more of a medical uh guidance behind it to administer it yeah so we’re starting low and slow with psilocybin and then the state can expand to other medicines in 2026 but I think you know for viewers if if the measure passes we could see the state’s first Healing Centers opening in January 2025. okay yeah well I appreciate those insights into the regulatory aspects of it because it’s important for viewers to know I mean first and foremost that when this passes isn’t it’s not like a downtown party in Denver right that’s not that’s not at all it would be and goal is here it is also not going to be recreational Kevin’s mentioned it multiple times already on the episode that these medications will be distributed to the people who can provide the care in those settings where that intentionality can be informed it would not be like an 800 number you just call and then it’s sent straight to you in that regard correct that’s right yeah so this is the it the regulated program is a closed loop system so we’ll have Healing Centers that are only cultivating psilocybin mushrooms so they’re also storing um and possessing those mushrooms on site at a physical location that location would then be selling those medicines to another Healing Center that’s offering Services you may also have a Healing Center that’s only that that’s both cultivating psilocybin and offering services but the point here is that under no circumstances or situation would a person be able to go to a Healing Center and purchase psilocybin and then go home so that’s why it’s a closed loop system um a person again who purchases um a session with psilocybin they’re consuming those medicines on site and and then also they’re getting support because first of all you know through for a person who wants to go receive these services for example there’s there’s a screening process us you know looking at their past mental health history their behavioral health history you know what are any contraindications that may exist and that um where using psilocybin would not be recommended and then there’s a preparatory session where it would be like you know you’re sitting down with a therapist and talking about like why are you here today why do you want to explore using these medicines so the Preparatory session and then you have the actual natural medicine session itself and then there’s at least one integration session afterwards to help the person you know incorporate their experience into their daily life and to create a plan for staying on that path towards healing and I just circle back to what the some of the conversation from earlier um you know I think it’s it’s very insightful again this is from my experience uh Brandon you were talking about how it might take up to 90 days for a person who’s using an antidepressant for example to actually start to feel relief from their depressive symptoms yeah so four to six weeks for the medication to give to give that neuro uptick oh I am experiencing something different here but that feature is to allow for the opportunity for therapeutic therapy to take place namely talk therapy which is the 90-day component so if it took the whole six weeks to get the person in position okay now I can finally talk about what’s going on then we’ve got 90 days from there as the evidence suggests through just the lens of cognitive behavioral therapy of course so there are a variety of different ways to attack it but if that was the even though we’re moving away from pathology if it was moving if that was the pathology of it you know we’re looking at potentially four four and a half to five months to remedy something but namely what the medication gives room for the Third therapist to do is to work on that ruminating feature that constant I can’t get out of bed I don’t feel good whatever the rumination is is where the talk therapy comes into play it’s four to six weeks just to get really started and so it would be beneficial of that if that window was significantly collapsed of course a person could start opening up and sharing about their trouble their experience with a higher Acuity obviously the more um the faster that timeline needs to be so any tool that we can have to and and typically the higher Acuity the the more necessary the medication to uh to have that neural uptick so that the work can begin so there’s this sort of inverse relationship that is always kind of working against the clinical component so to have um options that would help us to to close that Gap to get that window as small as humanly possible so that the work can really begin from a clinical perspective obviously that’s extremely enticing and it’s it’s very exciting yeah yeah and I can really only speak to my own personal experience in that regard and just knowing for me personally um you know using psilocided mushrooms because that’s kind of the main medicine that I work with I’ve experienced Ayahuasca in the past multiple times a couple of a couple of other natural medicines too but but knowing like when the research says that there’s immediate and sustained relief which it does with these medicines but also from my perspective also includes like man I really want to talk about what I just went through and all of the things that bubbled up from you know my subconscious things that I’ve been repressing for so long that had the opportunity to come to the surface and to witness in a safe way um and then to be able to talk about it especially with somebody who’s a professional I think I mean it could I mean you know we hope it’s going to have a tremendous impact on people’s lives absolutely yeah and just for the viewers out there I know our industry is um you know has a curious lens on uh marijuana it’s past legislation where we’re at today and you know um some of the the the the the crying out of our industry for for a lack of better words but just uh the opposition that we’re experiencing and I think it’s I think it’s right sized at times from a regulatory aspect right you know in this regard I’ve got to go to somebody I’ve got to go through a process a system to even engage in the therapy as a process whatsoever going to the marijuana legislation I can just go into you know Manitou Springs over here pop in and be like oh I’ve got depression and uh so I’m going to take a little bit of bubble gum there in that you know Steve over there and I’ll take some of that and you know 95 THC versus 30 may as well do 95 percent right there’s a there’s an insanity of that from our perspective as an industry because that’s like going into a pharmacy and being like man I’m coughing today and so I’ll just take a little bit of that and a little bit of that and a little bit of that and then we’ll just you know see what takes place from there what I’m not doing here is dismounting the efficacy of medical use of marijuana but the propensity for harm that can come when and it’s unchecked access to it as a level of care and so what we’re noticing as an industry is for 94 percent of all the people who walk over into the Manitou stores over here have literally no issue with it you know it’s a it’s a party night it’s a exploratory night insights maybe a little paranoia you know whatever comes from it you know in that regard but in the 80 20 principle sense of things that six percent is consuming more than 80 percent of all the marijuana in the state of Colorado and I think that’s the thing we miss as an opportunity when it slaps not not slapstick legislation but legislation that um I think my charitable reading of the marijuana was to create that access right and we could dive into it further if we want but the whole reason for expressing that and explaining that is to say that to have it regulated to have this closed loop in that sort of way at least in my mind greatly reduces that potential and so what we learned through marijuana legislation in a hindsight moment is now coming into these moments um with a I think a greater priority in that regard and a little bit more recognition that we have to contain this in in sort of a way yes decriminalization protect people and their rights outside but at the same time because it goes through this filter we have an opportunity to capture maybe individuals with schizophrenia psychosis and these sort of things that these drugs probably are not going to work for in any meaningful sense of things and so I just want to honor that about the legislation I also want to talk out loud about what we’re learning from past legislative processes and how we can do better moving forward and I don’t know if you want to add anything to that or but I just wanted to let the viewers know especially on behalf of our industry that you know here at Peaks recovery centers we are as best we can thinking about this thoughtfully you know not just talking with you know natural medicine Colorado but we’ve talked to you know folks in Mexico you know Puerto Rico Costa okay we had Bree Walton last week who is a benefactor of natural plant based medicines who is not an abuser or have you know misused substances in the past and um you know working with uh Skylight psychedelics and Boulder over to New York City I mean addiction psychiatrists and so forth all these individuals are engaged and informed with this and from my perspective are appreciating that closed-loop regulation and so I don’t know if you want to add more to that but I just wanted to make that aware for our viewers out there that there is some thought and consideration going into this in a way that our industry might be disgruntled about past legislation sure yeah I’d be happy to add just a little bit more you know emphasizing that the natural medicine Health act does not create retail or recreational access to natural medicine so you know you’re absolutely correct a person’s not going to be able to walk into a you know a dispensary on the street corner and and take their pick of the different strains of mushrooms that are available and then go home we’re very intentional with that you know you know recognizing both obviously the you know the the efficacy and the safety of these medicines but also how powerful they are right and if we’re looking at the research we you know we modeled this therapeutic access after what the research has been telling us is the most effective way to administer these medicines to people and so what we’re learning here from the past 20 to 25 years of you know at least in our post-modern era double-blind placebo-controlled clinical studies is that these medicines are most effective when they’re combined with therapy Brandon you mentioned earlier the you know the research that was happening again at universities I think like actually like Harvard and Yale in the 50s and 60s showing how these could be potential medicines to treat things like mental health those weren’t double-blind placebo-controlled studies that were mostly I think observational now we have the research to back it up and if the research is telling us like here’s the best way to you know if we’re considering set and setting so that’s your mindset and your intention for working with these medicines and the environment when you’re immersing yourself in for this four to six hour period of time where you’re going to have a breakthrough experience and and let go of um well let go of your ego for lack of a better term you know what is the best way to create a safe container for that to happen so and so that’s where our intention is like how do we make this as safe and structured as possible which it has to be regulated model yeah in that context totally and so you know I want to talk just briefly here about for the sake of time in our audience out there for all the you know the facebookers out there you know three second attention spans so they’ve probably skipped over this whole thing but it’s so important stay focused stay with me out there facebookers uh in this regard I don’t want to talk about who’s on Facebook yeah I don’t know moms and dads older demographics for sure Instagram The Tick tockers all the all the people out there um but how these therapies are actually going to work in practice right we’ve talked about it on past finding Peaks episodes sometimes individuals come up to me and they say Brandon I’m going to do this on pod and I’m confused because I don’t know what the individual is trying to State about that we get after it but the things that I want to highlight about that is that we have these triggered States right we have these emotional disruptive dysregulated features of our existence that can come from trauma experiences Big T experiences little tea experiences that we’ve talked about on past treatment episodes but in that way we don’t know how to deal with those emotions and so this is very like 101 of course yeah I’ll add to it so yeah clinical add to it in that way but for my Baseline analogy here it’s like so I’m triggered and I consume alcohol and I’m triggered and I consume alcohol triggered and then ultimately through those definitions I form what our industry calls addiction at the end of the day right so we move the alcohol well I’m still dysregulated I’m still triggered I’m still disrupted in that way of things so when the individual comes and says I can do this on pot Kevin what he or she is trying to say to me is that when I’m triggered I will just ingest marijuana right but we’re not taking seriously concepts of neuroplasticity in that moment namely that the brain has formed the pathways that state triggered alcohol so to replace alcohol with marijuana is um not the correct way to go about that right we want to work on these triggers these emotions and that sort of thing if marijuana is a future opportunity for the individual through a harm reduction model so be it but we’re not going to replace drugs for drugs for the sake of numbing triggers right in that way of things um and also when we are depressed we might take an SSRI you know depression symptoms whatever and we keep taking the sris in time and for me the value proposition around psychedelics in general and the therapies around it is that we’re triggered and what this drug is going to be inserted for is once or twice per year for an opportunity to gain insights into those triggers what might be below those as triggers and then we’re not and then we’re going to remove the drug after the session and we’re going to continue that focused talk therapy on the other side and that’s how I perceive at least these therapeutic interventions going with a little bit more um eloquence then other ways we’ve been looking at this or maybe that the public thinks about how these drugs are you know mixed and matched in that regard you want to anything else to that Clinton well I think um you made an interesting comment you said it’s sort of like uh the dismantling of the ego right and really if you’re looking at it from just a kind of a neurological perspective or even a even a behavioral perspective I think we have these experiences in our lives and over time if we look through the process model we start to our experiences will start to kind of encase us we create these barriers and these these shields and these protective mechanisms that kind of cover our trauma that tuck it away and so we aren’t constantly in a state of trauma it’s um PTSD is almost the opposite of that it’s like a live nerve at all times it’s just constantly being exposed and those those protective mechanisms aren’t as effective they’re not working as much they get triggered more easily but for something like traditional trauma on traditional trauma uh these protective mechanisms are kind of what allow us to sort of function but we begin to function maladaptively because we lose access to certain aspects of our minds certain aspects of our brain that are what actually make us feel more work complete and whole and give us more sort of psychological and emotional options as a human being so so it was something like psilocybin at least my reading of it through your description and my base understanding of it as uh as an intervention strategy it helps it basically just dismantles those protective mechanisms it takes those barriers away with that said you are fully exposed in that moment yeah this is a fully exposed moment which by yourself alone without any sort of guidance feels extremely it’s a precarious situation to be in at the very least right so the fact that we are able to to look at the entire picture of what this is going to look like from a therapeutic perspective and recognition that you need somebody with you in order to go through this process and also you need to be ready to go through this process because it’s going to be big and so I think just to kind of flush that out a little bit and kind of to go back to what you were speaking earlier the the scientific or the clinical term for that ego death it’s called disattenuation of the default mode Network yeah and so if we consider the great Scrabble board that’s great yeah right anyway right off the default mode Network so and and both of you could probably explain this better than I could but that default mode Network would would be considered the the foundation of our personality sure which is which is composed of all of you know the the neural Pathways that that uh for you know looking behind the scenes or under the hood of our brain that make us who we are in this moment and how we engage in reality and engage in life every single day and these medicines it’s kind of hitting control I don’t want to say control alt delete it’s like hitting the reset button and it’s washing all of those it’s like it’s like it’s washing away um temporarily a lot of those those neural Pathways that that may have originally you know as we keep reinforcing them on a daily basis that are constantly having us turn to the alcohol return to the marijuana or turn to whatever it is that relieves us from our years of of you know trauma and and then I think like so many of the tremendous results that we’re seeing from these clinical studies I mean smoking cessation comes to mind um alcohol abuse disorder comes to mind where as long so after one of these sessions as long as we can and we’ll and then we create new neural Pathways that are positive that help us create new habits as long as we’re taking the time which is why you know post session therapy and guidance and integration is so important that that we can actually um you know really strengthen those new neural Pathways that are created after one of these experiences and then also have the tools um readily you know readily available in some cases to to minimize that craving or minimize um you know the you know the the need to use the thing or the activity or the substance that brought us relief in the past and I mean some of the results I’d just really encourage the listeners to just simply Google you know uh Johns Hopkins psilocybin clinical studies and see what comes up and there’s hundreds of scholarly articles on that yeah absolutely and this also reminds me you know kind of going to the point of what this two-year period post legislation would look like I met with one of the founders of a journey collab actually this morning before I came on here Journey collabs a bio pharmaceutical company whose mission is to unlock the promising science behind psychedelics to provide durable remission for patients suffering from addiction so when I think about therapeutic interventions right there is a way in which we have ideas about it we have common sense ideas about how this can punch through sort of the armor that would take 90 days in an episode to get through through talk therapy in those ways but we also don’t have um a great deal of evidence for how it would work in like a residential model or an inpatient or a medical detox program like Peaks recovery centers and so I bring up Journey collab journeyco lab.com Google it out there for individuals to just look up online because this company is actively on the forefronts of getting FDA DEA approval all the things you need at the federal level pre-legislation to work with one or two or three treatment centers to identify ways to bring patients in to use positive their positive curriculums and introduce a psychedelic model within it and obtain the research and the value and the outcome from that as a proposition and so stating here as well though we have ideas and opportunities there are active companies in the background working on the research and development of these platforms to positively integrate these features into models of cares like Peaks recovery centers and I think that’s exciting because it’s not just right from this advantage point it you know I can you know maybe we can hear you know put potential opposition to it on the other side of like well of course Kevin you know natural medicine in Colorado you’re going to you know be a proponent of this but um pop culture those types of things but there’s a real engagement across the world to bring this these practices into these interventions and people are trying to be very thoughtful about it and learn from mistakes and also you know we might be coming to the edge of what has been known as the war on drugs and the healing and all of that on the other side is going to take some thought because there are people and rightfully so who come through Peaks recovery centers whose loved ones are engaged in misuse and abuse of drugs and alcohol who might be thinking like this is just one more damn thing I gotta take my loved one to treatment for in that regard and so just trying to give the viewers out there a little bit of knowledge that um this is being taken seriously and they’re very passionate researchers Physicians clinicians all of the people that we’ve given are you know when we walk into the emergency room uh our trust in the medicine that they’re delivering are backing this in a very big way behind us and trying to be as thoughtful as possible and it reminds me of the you know the point about misuse and abuse you know at Peaks recovery centers I do all the occupancy reports and so uh over the uh from 2021 January 1st 2021 to today at Peaks recovery centers we’ve admitted 520 patients the end value is getting close to a thousand so we’re almost there listeners statisticians out there but of those 520 patients we only have have had five individual individuals with a hallucinogenic diagnosis disorder of any kind so five of 520 and none of those were primary diagnosis the primary was either an opioid or an impen or something of that nature but the individual was misusing you know those plant-based medicines in the background in that regard so 5 out of 520 from a substance abuse treatment standpoint is an incredible data set if anything anecdotally from our own experience that informs that we’re not seeing a lot of people come through our program with you know natural based medicines as the real problematic features within the diagnosis code sets and just want to give that to the viewers for whatever it’s worth would encourage any addiction treatment center Mental Health Center and so forth to you know inform their own data about it as well too you have access to your diagnosis code sets and see if it matches what we’re seeing here at Peaks and then out of that we might have a little bit of wiggle room to think about opening our hearts and Minds to this as an opportunity so um so yeah I don’t know if you want to add more that’s it’s a it’s a tremendous point to bring up because I think it it validates a little bit of the of the enforcements and the the enforcement and use data that we obtained as a result of Denver’s successful decriminalization so I’m also I also serve as the president of the Denver psilocybin mushroom policy review panel in Denver so I work with our D.A members of the city attorney’s office uh Denver law enforcement uh police department sheriffs other attorneys other Health Care Professionals and our panel unanimously uh agreed and shared last year that decriminalizing psilocybin in the City and County of Denver has not resulted in any significant public health or safety issues and so I think that’s important to note especially when we’re talking about personal use and decriminalization as well just acknowledging that if we’re looking at you know some some of this some of these data sets that the sky hasn’t fallen like really nothing has changed changed pre-denver decriminalization and post decrim except that more people are actually more curious about how these natural medicines can help them you know with their with their treatment with their recovery Etc and I think you know that’s less than one percent according to your your data set right and that’s a tremendous number to know um I think what’s important to emphasize is that what what we what we know for sure is that the more that we educate individuals on intention your environments you know educate folks about an informed and responsible way to use these natural medicines then that maximizes the therapeutic benefits almost exponentially um and and again with our measure knowing that we’ve taken the time and the care and and just really paid attention to the details in terms of how these can be administered at a Healing Center or in a therapeutic environment um you know your that data goes a long way to help I think just just validate the case that these medicines for the most part are very safe especially when we compare their their safety profiles with other substances even stuff that’s in the home Tylenol alcohol nut Clorox under your sink you know so it’s important important to consider like education is a big primary focus here and that most folks um at least from what we’ve seen with our data who even use these medicines outside of a clinical context are doing so responsibly and to self-treat their own mental or behavioral health conditions too yeah and I you know and then just against the backdrop we talked about it in all the public sphere and all of that the you know the the vast majority of people who are coming to Peaks recovery centers well the majority of them I should say are alcohol and opioid users those are the two primary substances that we see most often in our care I’ll call the primary and Then followed by opioid says the next most used substance opioid use disorders led to 107 000 overdose deaths last year alcohol I’m sure is in a similar range from car accidents to domestic violence to misuse abuse falling off buildings balconies college parties all those sort of things and I highlighted not to say that in this regard that this is again the Panacea event of disrupting those things but for those family systems out there and the ongoing struggle and engagement with those mental health components not to mention major depressive disorder and suicidal ideation in that regard we’re losing hundreds of thousands of lives to these disorders not you know to us the the the substance use the major depressive disorder are the symptoms of the underlying inability to deal with and regulate our emotional states and that’s a much bigger conversation that I’m making it right now please know that viewers but at that sort of you know simplistic level in that regard um we’re not trying to compare contrast in that way but to inform that these symptoms are devastating and this is an opportunity to punch through the armor of the shield of the things that take 90 120 12 months to get well as a process and allow for more interactive more immediate interventions in a way that can hopefully lower those numbers in time in that regard and just wanted to make that known to the viewers out there so um going through this I think that you know we’ve touched on regulation we’ve touched on the therapeutic benefits multiple talking points that you guys are traveling around the state of Colorado and talking about currently I wanted to give one pause here for what is the connection of natural medicines to indigenous cultures because I know that’s within the legislation I think on the board on the other side as well too you want to be inclusive of indigenous cultures and so if you could just talk to us about the benefits for our viewers because we won’t have a ton to say about that at Peaks recovery centers but you know these plant-based medicines have been a legacy for some of these tribal cultures and indigenous cultures of the past and up until the you know the War on Drugs in that regard which you know is seemingly right a blip on the screen and compared to the you know the Millennia the hundreds of years prior of use for these tribal cultures uh in that regard I just want to pass that puck off to you in this moment to bring the viewers into why that’s an important piece of this measure for you guys yeah it it’s really a a critical piece of our measure what we have to remember is that natural medicines like psilocybin have been used by cultures all across the world for thousands of years whether it’s for ceremonial Rites of Passage whether it’s for Community Building or whether it’s for you know addressing any um any psychological or or social social systems Within These groups these medicines have been used as a as a tremendous tool um to really keep indigenous cultures you know even like like we’re all I think something for all of us to consider is that we we all come from indigenous cultures to a degree if we look back at the Arc of time going all the way back like you know Humanity had its roots and um in in indigeneity in this context especially if we’re talking about psilocybin or Ayahuasca or even mescaline what was important for us for this measure was to make sure that people who have been using these medicines traditionally from that indigenously informed perspective that there’s there’s going to be protected and they can continue offering their services without fear of criminal or civil repercussions um going along with that so much of the clinical research I think has very much been highly informed by how natural medicines have been used in the past by these cultures if we’re looking at you know what was the traditional way to have a healing ceremony so much of what we know from these different cultures has informed a lot of the therapeutic models and then to add on to that you know with our natural medicine Advisory board that will be created as a result of this measure passing we have to have at least one person who is indigenous who is informed and educated about using plant and fungi medicine in a ceremonial context and so I think it’s it’s just it’s important to acknowledge and then create the framework necessary to protect um the the history and the tradition and in many cases the Legacy behind doing this medicine work because you know for those of us who you know who you know we live in Western culture right now um you know that acknowledgment and the protection of the indigenous use of these medicines needs to be um protected as much as possible yeah can certainly appreciate appreciate that I think right if anything you know in Western culture at least in the past 40 50 years kind of post regulation at the you know at the levels at least we’ve experienced in what is called or known as you know the War on Drugs there’s a way in a perceptual way in which we think about somebody hears the word mushrooms right you know for me living in this world it’s like oh you saw some crazy stuff in your room changed and you went through all these experiences and I think the indigenous background better informs the intentionality behind that and going back to the last episode we were talking about toxic relationships with brie wolter right at the tail end of that she talks about the importance of those ceremonial aspects the creation of safety the the you know folks around her in that regard promoting this and guiding the individual through that this is what we’re looking for in these indigenous cultures have been practicing this for Thousand Years so no better you know group of you know folks out there to inform the positive value proposition and also this can be done in a safe setting and here’s how we’ve done it for thousands of years prior to this moment so appreciate you guys bringing that you know Ford is a topic and I think we’ve rolled through all of kind of our talking points today in that regard and if I miss anything certainly let me know on the outtake here but you know with that um you know as we said in the beginning look into the you know Cameron and let the Colorado voters know where they can get more information resources access all those sort of things before I take it out with our viewers absolutely absolutely yeah folks so folks if you want to learn more please go to naturalmedicincolarado.org you can find us on Facebook and Instagram at natural medicine Colorado we actually have a couple of opportunities for folks to get involved if you want to volunteer if you want to be an ambassador with the campaign when you go to the website click on get involved and you’ll see our upcoming date for our next Ambassador training which is on October 5th and then ballots drop Colorado’s a mail-in state right so ballots drop on October 18th if you support this please you know read read the ballot measure when the ballots drop have a plan to vote and then just encourage your friends and your family and your colleagues and your co-workers anybody in your network who you think might support this to vote Yes on this either at the Dropbox or on November 8th for election day thank you yeah yeah yeah Kevin thank you so much for being down here again Coalition director for natural medicine call and for the viewers out there you know here at Peaks recovery centers we talk a lot about our vision for disrupting an industry through quality of care this is a disruptive feature that we hope our industry can open their hearts and Minds to and think about in that way this is a beginning of our platform for educating you know voters and viewers out there on the struggles of our industry what this might mean as an opportunity and we want to continue to educate as much as we possibly can so before sending in that ballot as well too we’re going to be meeting with some addiction psychiatrists skylight psychedelics on October 27th we’ll be shooting that episode live to learn more from professionals about their insights into this measure and on top of that October 29th we’re trying to work with natural um medicine Colorado to do an educational event supportive or to really bring either opponents or proponents together to have a real discussion about this here in the City of Colorado Springs and so we’ll get more information out there as well too but we hope that we can make that a meaningful event for the community so whether you’re Pro or against the measure that we can come together and have a meaningful to conversation about it before we finally Check Yes or No On The Ballot Box in that regard and overall just appreciate the viewers who’ve stuck with us on the Facebooks and so forth in going through this to hear the reality of this measure what we’re trying to do and from at least our industry’s perspective one perspective within it how we think this measure can actually improve the lives and the mental Wellness of the individuals we treat at the end of the day so at the end of this finding Peaks at peaksrecovery.com thoughts ideas frustrations excitement around this measure send it to us we’ll talk more about it in the future you can find us again for the finding Peaks episodes on the face book the Twitter the tick tocks Chris Barnes with mental health awareness all of those exciting things he’s pounding his chest and running marathons in the background for uh check it out otherwise Brandon Burns chief executive officer for Peaks recovery centers thank you so much for listening and walking through this measure with us until next time we’ll see you soon

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Episode 73Below The Surface of Substance UseWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/Mn2_P4A34T4Listen NowDescriptionIn this episode, we dive into a vital topic surrounding mental health and how Peaks Recovery is taking the initiative the shift how we effectively help individuals. We discuss how approaching our clients from a mental health lens is providing a betterment to culture, outcomes, and behavioral health services.

Talking Points1. How can we shift the focus to mental health, and what truly informs addiction 2. Some of the aspects in our field that have been the norm, but are now starting to change 3. It’s not about the substance 4. What is driving this, and what relief are you seeking 5. Taking the harder route and the benefits that come from it Quotes

”We have the opportunity to heal, but it turns out we have to heal from the inside out, not the outside in, it doesn’t work that way. It’s an awesome call to courage because each and every one of us can be in recovery and actively pursue helping others with their mental health.”-Chris Burns

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 73 Transcriptshey everybody and welcome to another amazing episode of Finding Peaks Yours Truly president and founder Chris Burns AKA recovery cheerleader hopeful recovering member let’s go I was going to tap my chest but it normally does the mic thing yeah they hate that they do it’s really yeah they’re like stop tapping but anyway we have my uh co-host who I love and cherish is a friend professional and colleague Jason friezma Chief clinical officer as well as licensed professional counselor and then we have Rachel Tapp back on the show so grateful to have her back one of our longest standing employees and our director of outpatient services both Colorado Springs and Denver so there’s probably nobody who directs with that type of space the geography yeah that’s a lot of Direction and she does it quite well so really grateful to have you on and you know what I do here I bring on great professionals but even better humans and that’s what we’re about to get into so um what is top of mind today and what I want to start talking about on this episode as well as the uh the following episodes leading up is like how can we begin to focus more wholeheartedly on mental health and not so much on this addiction piece and there was a book that just came out and um it was a follow-up to a trauma documentary that Dr gaboramate did in 2020 which was caused the wisdom of trauma and he did this deep dive in that documentary which really caught my eye and then he followed it up with this book um called the um I was escaping me right now um the myth of normal yeah the myth of normal which is really really great and it really goes on to debunk a lot of not necessarily debunked but really um get a bit more sophisticated around conversations in and around mental health in what actually informs addiction and so I’m really excited because it’s just a breath of fresh air for this field and for myself as a professional and somebody in long-term recovery and so I just want to open up today’s show checking him with Jason because Jason did you actually get to see Gabor Monte yeah okay super there you were at the conference too but you didn’t go in there right right I was I was part of the myth of the normal at the time yeah but you got to see Gabor mate yeah five years ago yeah it was five years ago yeah we had a booth okay uh right next to where he was presenting and um actually I took a ton of notes like they’re in my phone still um because he he you know I think he’s refining his message like he was saying pretty Innovative things but even back then and I think it’s informed kind of what we’re doing at Peaks and and how we’re beginning to conceptualize um treating mental health and substance use is not very different things uh because there’s way more in common there’s uh separate from all that so uh yeah I’ve been familiar with Cabo mate for quite a while actually Dr Justin Lincoln also gave me a book of his probably 10 years ago yeah yeah do you have any experience with Gabor Monte I when you hear something like that because I hear that and now it’s time and place yeah even six five six years ago time and place if you would have walked out of there and been like hey there’s this guy Gabor mate I’d have been like what 12-step meeting did he come from right yeah and you would have been like okay how do you get information like that and hold it so close without going hey I think I found something over here like not and not become like an evangelist of it yeah I think um that’s a good I had to go through my own skepticism about it Faithfully in like um we also kind of live in this really in the real world of like how do we practically Implement something and and I think um we’re reaching a point certainly at Peaks and and hopefully culturally where it’s like we have to really refine what we’re doing and 35 outcomes uh is not great and something is broken and I think it seems wise to go all the way to how we Define the problem seems to be what may be broken yeah it’s hard to build a good recovery program uh if your foundation has some flaws sure hey that makes a lot of sense too and and sometimes it’s not safe to share that information yeah I mean I’m not sure you’re in a listening mode back honestly yeah that’s what I was telling Jay before the show he could have told me Gabor mate was there and I’d have been like man I’m going over here hanging out smoking cigars yeah but I’ve really learned the value and the benefit of that information and how it doesn’t decrease but nearly dismisses shame if we have this really functional intentional process and Peaks I think is really cutting edge and Innovative in its approach in its curriculum um the the titles of each week not one of them is alcoholism or addiction or relapse prevention for good reason and so I believe we are on The Cutting Edge and since we’re on The Cutting Edge we’re going to continue to be on the Forefront and talk about this but I want to turn it over to Rachel because Rachel started out as obviously a client care aide and then a residential director which when she started with us was really 12-step driven conducted by Yours Truly right and so there was a lot of things we believed to be true about 12-step the behaviors the association the connectedness the meeting place and I still find some of those things to be true but just not so intensely how has the transition been for you and what have you seen as a benefit for getting out of the cultural norm which is something that was was built in 1935 in every Aftercare plan goes in that direction so I think for me it in a really cool

it’s been challenging I think that like what we were talking about before the show like this is the hard way this is not the um okay well like just you know like learn you have to accept it or you know like we used to have clients write down the doctor’s opinion as like a consequence yeah like that is crazy yeah you know but like in instead of like sitting down and actually like talking to a client about like okay so like what’s actually coming up for you with this you know um and I mean I’ve even implemented this more in with like my staff too you know um but yeah it has been um a really eye-opening experience because it’s I’m actually finding that um I mean from what I’ve seen it’s actually not helpful like the 12 Steps it’s helpful for some I think you know like what we talked about like finding that Community um but Jason and I have had a conversation about like the shame that you know like the 12 steps and AAA actually brings to people um and I’ve had that experience and um you know I I just don’t think that it’s worth it it’s not worth it to put our clients through more shame and ourselves through more shame than we’ve already been through I love what you said it’s hard it’s hard it’s hard the easy button is to do this right I’d find my 14-year chip around here somewhere and I grab it and I hold it up and I say let’s go if you want what I have you’re willing to do what I do that is so easy yep it is and then I can take you through 12 things that show you the way but unfortunately not everybody’s built like Chris Burns not everybody comes in without Family Support not everybody comes in disenfranchised not everybody is experiencing uh extreme dislocation in their family of origin for those people it tends to set up really well because it speaks to a couple things connection with community and connection with family and the absence of family of origin and so I think for some people it can be beneficial to start and kind of build that communal Foundation but I think with time we’re really called to do the hard thing which is engage in our Mental Health um and I understand the rub because the rub was for me it was for me wholeheartedly really until about 2016 or 2017. but in 2016 I was talking to them before the show and this is the myth of the normal and this is what Dr Gabor mate addresses so well is that in 2016 I am sitting in a position as the president and founder of Peaks recovery I am being praised by our team the community judges lawyers nurses Community you name it the only people that weren’t singing my Praises were my family of origin right and that’s the myth that I think we get behind in that Dr Gabor mate covers so well in his book is he says I was on the front page of the Vancouver newspaper in my life was burning down in the background and here I am Champion change for lots of vulnerable people’s plans and purposes and I can’t even get behind my own mental health so I love that you said that because it is a rub and it is a call to action um what are some of the things Jason um that you think that we have gotten into as a field and maybe even at Peaks that we can grow in and out of that have constructively kind of been the norm like is like new things that we’re making the norm are previously previous things that might have been like the the norm in our field that we’ve grown up and out of okay and then maybe some things we’re advancing from there I mean certainly like doing addiction treatment uh it was very normal for clinicians to work on powerlessness and unmanageability to work on uh like bring your fourth step to your next session and we’re going to kind of go over it almost uh taking overs in a sponsor Lane and um actually created a ton of tension I think between the the community-based programs and treatment and um and really um I think that creates uh lazy it’s lazy clinical work yes because it it isn’t using any theory of counseling all it is is taking what was written by lay people back in the 1930s and then applying it to current day uh treatment and so uh moving away from that and using actual clinical skills to include cognitive behavioral therapy DBT uh act all the all the therapies that we provided Peaks like um it puts kind of the AAA or even other community-based programs in the in the correct Lane which is community-based support systems and it it allows clinical work to to focus on issues like trauma and other mental health issues depression anxiety that sort of thing that’s huge you’re actually bringing up a point in the book where Dr Gabor mate says in regards to parents and treatment programs the more stressed out the parents studies short show the more punitive the more stressed out the company studies show more punitive interesting right and so what we have in our world is we got I don’t know 14 000 addiction treatment providers under resourced undervalued not focused in on Mental Health stressed out and very punitive yeah 12-step at times can feel very punitive in its approach and so I I kind of want to throw back to you Rachel let’s talk about how we can be a little bit more intelligent and sophisticated on that side to meet our clients where they’re at

well okay so I I do want I want to go back quickly because I think um when you were talking about like okay Chris Burns in 2016 like the AAA and the 12 Steps like that was coming from you um I I want to give you a little bit of credit because it was actually coming from I mean the entire industry um and I think um so one thing that I really appreciate about Peaks as a whole is like like when we know better than we do better right and so I think that we and I think that’s actually an Al-Anon phrase um I I hold that one to my heart because like we we figured out how to do it better right yeah and um it has been

I mean it’s just crazy how much differently our clients are receptive to like this approach I never got to see or have the experience sitting with somebody simply having a cup of coffee where I got to watch shame leave their face yeah literally leave their body and they go and hope lights up I never experienced that in any of my sponsor sponsee relationships it was very you driven use statements and I never found that in those circumstances and scenarios and oftentimes those meetings anybody was ever ever able to settle it was this hyper vigilance it was a scared traumatized person who was just kind of going through and checking the boxes because they’ve been saying this is the best way since 1935 only to be met with more shame because of relapse and dislocation now in my community which can be really really tough I love that you mentioned that because people will say Chris fentanyl it’s dangerous we got to intervene we gotta you got to tell them what they need to do and I’m like I just don’t agree with that I think I think what Gabor mate covers so well is that our environment informs us before we inform it right and so moving out of the medical model which I think is important we begin to ask questions like not why the addiction why are you here it’s why the pain right and that’s just a shift it might even be the same holistic approach to care but it’s just a shift in where we sit in the table and the questions that we ask um that I have found and I’m sure you guys as well um have accounted for a pretty tremendous shift in our culture our outcomes and our delivery of Behavioral Health Services well and I also think you know one thing that um I’ve noticed especially with our um you know our clients that struggle with substance use is um especially at IOP level of care like there is stuff I mean so we have a client that comes in and um they initially came in and they’re addicted to heroin or fentanyl or what have you um and we you know I’m looking at the uas and I see that they’ve tested positive for marijuana you know so my first question is why right like help me understand why because it’s not about the substance right it is not about the substance it’s about like okay walk me through it and like What feelings were coming up for you what um had you just gotten into an altercation with your family okay what did that bring up for you um you know and I I know for a fact that there’s not other treatment centers that are doing that you know and I think that it it it speaks to um I mean just the shift you know the shift that Peaks is making um because I mean mental health matters yeah matters of time it really does because it’s not about the substance at all well it’s interesting you know when we talk about peaks in 2016 uh I get a little defensive in a way because though we had good bones right like we we had we had problems for sure but what we did do well is we really did passionately care about clients and um I don’t agree with all of our approaches back then by any stretch of the imagination but I do think uh we’ve been very shame aware I think for a lot of the time like I don’t think um I don’t think that we’re in the business of shaming people ever really and I think um so like we had I think we had the right heart and I think we had clients did well and got better under our model before but I think it was almost in spite of some of our interventions sure and it was much more about that we were we were all kind of pouring our heart into what we were doing for sure and and really what I think you know you bring up the Scott Governor mate stuff is it the reason it’s resonating is because it’s what we already all were intuiting we just didn’t have necessarily the words and um and kind of that affirmation from kind of an outside you know MD to come in and be like you know what actually like addiction is a much broader term um you know and I think you’ve joked on this show a few times that like Jason you’re like you’re not in recovery from drugs and alcohol but you’re in recovery man I’m like yeah you’ve said that like from the beginning yeah and like he’s saying yeah exactly yeah that this is a much broader tent this definition of addiction or of of struggling suffering basically is what we’re defining and and seeking relief from suffering like most people do that yeah truthfully and then most people want freedom from that yeah and we’ve intuited that for a long time now we just have some some Concepts to really focus on and develop from yeah and it’s really shifted the lens too because it used to be oh we got a mental health primary yeah everybody in your programs you guys 14 000 treatment centers in the United States everybody’s Mental Health primary okay exactly and you can only find that out when you have 10 mental health primaries and 10 substance use disorders and you see that we’re in group we’re all asking the same questions we’re saying the same things we’re healing together yeah it’s all mental health and I just love that we don’t have to continue to stigmatize addicts and alcoholics and in turn stigmatize the rest of the world who’s fighting hard for their recovery yeah you know and those people can come to Peaks yeah um there’s um when I’m interviewing for a new employee that’s actually one of the questions I ask is um what is the difference between mental health and addiction and um if their answer is there’s not a difference I mean that’s where I didn’t there’s not a difference right yeah and that’s a beautiful thing how I think that on the other side and I want to bring this up for sure is there there will be people that will watch this episode and say there’s inherent risk factors with that approach there’s huge risk factors that wouldn’t otherwise be there if we weren’t controlling behaviors right so what do you say to that because there’s this other side that says fentanyl addiction kills people and that’s a really really narrow Cliff’s Edge so you really need to wrap around that and tell him what he needs to do or else he’s going to lose his life what do you say to somebody that approaches it from that angle

I mean I’ll start I think uh um we can tell people what to do all the time we can tell them to stop eating McDonald’s we can tell people that don’t drink soda we can tell people not smoke or vape or whatever um awesome tell them uh but what good does that do truthfully um and I think and I think that’s where more and more of like what what is driving this and what relief are you seeking yeah and then how do we find you genuine relief from that yeah right like absolutely there’s a there’s a huge fentanyl uh problem for sure that we’re facing the likes of which we’ve never faced before but um it’s one thing I think a gets right a fair amount of the time would be um this TV turned on over here the big thing I think would be uh um you know really kind of driving at what what’s what’s actually driving I think because honestly like I’ve done this long enough like I saw the math thing go uh in the early 2000s I watched uh the heroin epidemic of the late 2000s in the 2010-12 and now we’re in fentanyl like they’ll be the next I don’t know what it is I can’t predict but um what I do know is like we’re not necessarily getting to the core but yeah and telling people what to do I I that just so really works to be honest with you and that’s actually where you get the dishonesty that’s where you get all the resistance I remember thinking I remember someone told me you know how you’re lying Chris your lips are moving and you’re in your first year of recovery I’m like oh shame statement shame statement right I love what you’re saying because what if we just ask him like what are you getting out of the fentanyl yeah like right yeah what need is that meeting because addiction comes in when it needs more seconds of relief yeah I mean and it’s worth it yeah okay so why exactly and how can we find other ways to find some relief yeah because when you’re going to just pull out something that people describe as a warm blanket yep the first time I’ve ever been hugged the first time I ever felt like I could connect or be a part of or be a friend or helpful to anyone yeah was this substance and it worked great and back to the quote that I shared last week from it wasn’t Gabor Monte was another doctor in the book but it’s really hard to get enough of something that almost works it’s really hard to get enough of something that almost works so addiction makes a lot of sense a tremendous amount of sense and so how can we insert as a treatment team to say hey we got this fentanyl thing I always like to sit down with guys and women and say man tell me I’m grateful you had that alcohol and they’re like huh like what’d it do for you like yeah I’m grateful too you know because if I’m not chewing on a pill I’m trying to chew on a pistol like and that’s the transition yeah right and so I think we actually have to get pay homage to hey this actually was supportive for me I met a Benson hedges in a bottle of vodka 13 years old that in in in that time and place saved my life absolutely right and so turn it back over to you Rachel what do you get out of not just meeting people where they’re at but being taking the harder route being more Curious asking better questions what do you see in turn from that client’s presentation and overall behavior and let’s go back to the word that we always use in in the past willingness so um the approach that we’re taking um it is it is a lot more challenging um it I mean it’s harder for everyone involved and um so what I get from that is honestly trust like I I get trust from the clients because you know when I sit down and I have that conversation about the marijuana okay you know like so like I just want to explore this with you you know like what what came up for you what were you feeling um you know and then they come back they come back to group and they after they’ve relapsed right right um they like that that’s what I get is that they keep coming back right they keep coming back to a place that is safe yeah you know and that isn’t going to shame them because they smoked a joint yeah you know God it’s amazing my experience in the literature the aldated literature really points to you know we put that substance in our body eject button to the Moon you don’t see them for days months years that had been my experience one of the saddest things I’ve actually experienced in recovery but to your point I know I touched on it on another show but since you brought it up um it dismisses shame it helps people settle it keeps them safe so safe that they actually go right back into group and talk about it that’s Earth shattering Earth shattering man and I am so excited and I bring this Gabor mate stuff up because it’s so hopeful it’s such a light at the end of the tunnel we have an opportunity to heal but it just turns out that we have to heal from the inside out um not the outside in it doesn’t work that way which I think is really cool in an awesome call to courage because each and every one of us can be in recovery and actively pursue helping others in their mental health we don’t have to hear that Jay what drug did you do to make sure I can relate with you yep I might relate to Jason more than I have with any other addict or alcoholic and he’s never done any intravenous drugs confirmed confirmed Trish is like you know so a breath of fresh air um and I just want to end with this I remember as a 20 year old I was sitting in my first inpatient treatment program and this is the myth of the normal I think and I looked up and there’s this guy sitting in front of me his name’s Lenny Siegel he’s still a great human someone that I really look up to but what I was fixated on in his counseling office and I thought it was the coolest thing since sliced bread and he showed it to me was his 10-year chip and his master’s degree from ASU University I don’t know if you showed me the ASU thing it was right next to it but he said that’s the 10-year chip and he was the first person and I tell this story all the time he was the first person I ever met in their 20s with a decade of sobriety and a degree and I chased that until three years ago to learn that that no offense to Lenny Lenny’s much more than that chip Lenny’s consider it he’s honest he has Integrity he’s open he cared about me before I could care about myself so in my opinion the last thing we should talk about is how many years of sobriety he has appreciate you Lenny so thank you all for coming on I’m going to continue to talk about this stuff bring other professionals on as well as great humans I just want to continue to ruffle the feathers of the industry and really call a courageous um call a call to action that is courageous and I think it does take some courage to come in and say hey I got it wrong it’s vulnerable but it’s also authentic to say that we’re going to continue to fight here at peak’s recovery um to get it right to ensure that our outcome data continues to go up I mean we’re not going to concern ourselves with the national average that’s abysmal until next time I appreciate you all find us on all of your podcasts Instagram Tick Tock got some good ones coming out this week we just poured the foundation on a new facility check us out until next time peace

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Episode 72Navigating Toxic RelationshipsWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/kbHuYLq5iBYListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, we have an extraordinary guest, Bre Wolta, a relationship clarity coach who runs her own business called Lucid Living, where she helps women find clarity in their relationships. We dive deep into the harsh realities of toxic relationships and how to navigate yourself out of them.

Talking Points1. What inspired Bre’s business ‘Lucid Living’ 2. Common toxic relationship aspects 3. What it looks like when family or friends get involved 4. The breaking point 5. Gaslighting 6. Working through the trauma from a detrimental toxic relationship 7. Boundaries 8. Cutting the Cord & The Empty Chair 9. Bre’s Curriculum 10. Touching base on plant based medicine Quotes

”Love Bombing is the beginning stage of the relationship, it’s all of the affirmations, the gifts, the sweet words that we’ve never heard before, and it’s intoxicating. So that is the initial phase where you latch on, and then what happens as the relationship progresses is you might start to see some things, warning signs, temper tantrums, things that don’t feel good, you get that gut feeling, and that’s where you start to question yourself and sense of reality.”– Kate Nelson, MS, LPC, RYT – 200, Clinical Director

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 72 TranscriptsBrandon Burns here chief executive chief executive officer for Peaks Recovery Center is excited to bring you on to this exciting episode here at uh finding Peaks today for um I’m a little distracted right now because we have our friend outside who’s suffering from a mental health issue we’re compassionate and filled with empathy here at Peaks but we’re just going to have to roll through that as a background noise today so uh with that bringing it a full back into Circle here joined today uh by our co-host Kate Clinical Director all of us women’s programming at Peaks recovery Center’s LPC super talented thanks for being here I’m really excited to be here for this topic thanks for having me absolutely and we have Bree wolta with Lucid living the relationship Clarity coach starter founder president CEO all the things operations running it today thank you yeah thank you so much for coming down here today and joining us to talk about your work and what’s going on so thank you for being here thanks for having me absolutely so I’ve had the opportunity and the privilege to review some of your work online and your podcast episodes and so forth and I think you know let’s let’s dive in and talk about your work in general and I think just kind of a as a basic framework for this kind of what inspired Lucid living as a journey and how did we come together today yeah well I think as a lot of therapists and coaches we all kind of find ourselves in helping roles because of something that we have gone through so I went through a pretty dysfunctional and toxic relationship and it was through understanding that I was even in something like that like wrestling with that for many years and then finding the courage to leave that situation and then what happened in the aftermath and the amount of confusion and turmoil and needing to learn boundaries and all of these things that you just get like thrown into the fire when I came through that experience and integrated that I was like I would like to help other people do this because there wasn’t like a road map you know there was there was a therapist that I have who didn’t she hadn’t gone through it herself so like obviously she is a support person and super helpful but didn’t have that first hand like I’ve been there type of understanding same with friends and family like they were supportive in the ways that they could be supportive but there’s so many nuances in healing from something of that caliber and I had a pretty extreme experience but dysfunction in general is really confusing yeah why we stay and why we can’t let them go and why we keep going back and why we hang on to this place of hope you know so to be a coach and to be able to guide other people in something that I’ve walked through is really powerful for them to to lower their shame and their embarrassment I was like I start with every client saying there’s nothing you can say to me that I haven’t done thought or said you know it’s like there’s so many commonalities in the experience yeah so it’s such an honor to be able to to help and see them make changes in their their world yeah wonderful you Kate have the experience of the therapist chair yes and the coaching chair here today so this is great to just have these you know converting perspectives uh in that regard and uh you know with that when my when I think about you know toxic relationships uh as well too I think we all are uh moved by our personal experiences in that regard as well too and so I think there’s a commonality that brings this room together in that sort of way and so you know between the two of you you know let’s let’s talk to the viewers about those uh pers not the Deep dive into those personal experiences but through those personal experiences the inspiration and what we feel like we can give back you know in that regard and maybe common features that we’re seeing within the clients that we’re seeing at any given time that are bringing people you know to these Services I can speak to that so much like free I found myself in a toxic relationship at a young age and it took me eight years to leave I’m now eight years out of it so it seems really like a long time ago and like a very different person that I was at that time um but there are just a lot of things that I think a lot of people don’t realize about these relationships and why people stay and a big part of it is much like you mentioned before Brandon is it is kind of like an addiction um in the sense that it there’s a cycle to it and so a lot of women and some men I don’t want to exclude men out of this because it does happen to men as well um they’ll find themselves in what we call love bombing and so love bombing is the beginning stage of the relationship it’s all of the affirmations the gifts the the sweet words that we’ve never heard before and it’s it’s intoxicating so that is the initial phase where you latch on and then what happens as the relationship progresses is you might start to see some things some warnings sign some temper tantrums some things that don’t feel good you get that gut feeling right and and that’s where you start to sort of question yourself and your sense of reality as it continues to go then you are going to start to see the physical verbal or emotional abuse whatever that looks like and then there’s kind of the calm afterwards where the person in the relationship is kind of like what happened should I leave did I do something wrong and then we go back up to the love bombing in the honeymoon and so you end up finding yourself staying for those dopamine hits that you get from this person that is just showering you with everything um and so that that’s the cycle and that is why it gets harder and harder to leave because every time you go through it your self-esteem deep Dives and you don’t have the strength to leave yeah the phenomenon of you know how narcissist that the narcissistic cycle and how they give you breadcrumbs right they start with the love bombing and then they slowly start to dis discard you and they give you so little that any little thing that they do give you is so important to you that it almost overshadows yeah all of the [ __ ] that they’ve been doing yeah um and then you start the justifications of why it’s okay and why they’re trying and why it’s not a red flag um and it’s all part of their cycle to get it the control to get the validation and it’s almost like they they get off on being able to control your emotions and to push you away and pull you back whenever they want right and your confidence does it like tanks because not only in that situation are you confused as hell and what is going on but they are intentionally gaslighting you to make you feel like more confused and like gets all your fault yeah so what is it like as a personal experience then okay now you’ve had these experiences you’ve gone through that sort of honeymoon phase of a relationship and now it’s forming those toxic those toxic behaviors are coming out now you’re hanging out with your friends or whatever and you’re displaying this to your friends and they’re saying hey something’s wrong here and you gotta go but that doesn’t feel like a tripwire you know in that regard it’s almost like the friends become you know you guys are wrong I’m just trying to share a story here and it’s just this you know moment uh uh can you just just describe to our viewers a little bit more about what it’s like to be around people have your best interests in mind but a rejection of that information all at the same time because you can’t have the hindsight moment yet right of like any of my friends were right so you’re sitting in that moment and what is it like to be in that um you know are we still trying to your head maybe I shouldn’t even brought this up to my friends you know what is that experience like I know we’re both like I could say I do I remember this so well and it’s interesting talking about it I’m like wow I remember some stuff about this um I actually had two friends tell me they were going to have an intervention to uh have me not marry this person and then they were afraid they’d lose my friendship and so they didn’t but there were certainly conversations before that like are you sure this seems unhealthy we’re worried about you um and what happened for me is I just stopped sharing and then it became a secret that made me sicker and sicker because I knew that they would tell me to leave and I knew at that time I didn’t have the strength too yeah it’s very isolating yeah because you’re feeling already so confused about what’s happening you want this person to be the person they were in the beginning this this love bomb version that was like you know promising marriage or whatever and it’s if you have an accepted reality yet you’re confused about it you’re ashamed about it and as you share with your friends and you’re hearing them say he’s not a good person you need to leave whatever you start defending so you actually switch over into the other role of like I’m not only not gonna hear what you’re saying but I’m gonna defend why he’s doing the best he can or whatever and that you know that pushes friendships apart that puts you more in isolation you feel more Shame about it and it’s you end up feeling like you are alone and crazy so so you’re going through these processes right and you we get sicker and sicker as the language is informed right Within it you know as as personal experiences what is what becomes the breaking point what becomes like the aha moment of like I think all my friends were right and I feel this now and like what is that experience like um or how do you find that or as a process of discovery is it commonplace for a lot of women or is it just more personalized you know in that regard just curious about that from the yeah so not only from a personal standpoint but I worked um in a domestic violence shelter for three years so you know I really learned a lot about this pattern and unfortunately it takes women about seven times before they actually leave they go back a lot because there’s another common phrase in this Dynamic hoovering where they suck you back in um I’ll change I’ll do the therapy I’ll you know do everything you said I’ll go back on medication and so you’re like okay well I’ll give it another shot and that’s what pulls people back in um and so I don’t and maybe we can speak to this too but I don’t think there’s a set formula I think there’s an element of either I’m going to die in this Dynamic from him or you know harm that I might cause to myself or I have enough things motivators kind of like with addiction external reasons of why I need to finally take care of myself yeah I struggled with with that for a long time because it was clear in my body that something wasn’t right like I’m like I don’t think you’re supposed to be this unhappy in a relationship and I had always had the understanding that relationships were hard that was a false belief that I adopted when I was younger and so part of me felt like it was normal but as it started to progress um it was little things that people said that were like planting seeds so a piece of advice for people if they have friends in this the situation is like just plant Little Seeds don’t come at them with like he is ruining our life what are you doing because that will make them retract and then defend so I had a my therapist at the time um I was making all the excuses all the justifications for him and she just asked me she’s like what are the things that you like about him right now and I I was listing things I liked before right I liked all the love bombings yeah the love bombing and she’s like no right now and I couldn’t give her an answer and so that was a massive aha moment for me where I was like why am I with somebody where I can’t list even one thing that I like right now and then when I was in the phase of like I think I need to do it I was I was teetering and more on the edge of like knowing I needed to but scared shitless of doing that a friend of mine was like either you go through this moment of pain and like discomfort or you live the rest of your life in pain and discomfort and that was like a huge aha for me where I was like I am in a lot of pain and I am becoming somebody that I don’t even recognize anymore and I was like this I don’t I can’t like I literally cannot sustain in this this environment yeah I was just going to add that um you know it’s cool to have this come full circle in the healing work that I’ve done and you know we talk about recovery like I you know you probably feel like you’re in recovery from an abusive relationship but I’ve gained a lot of insight personally and I’ve really been able to bring that with clients and what I see with our clients is um time and space away from it and that’s what you know treatment gives them a lot of times that is just perspective like I need to get some perspective and some outside opinions on this also connection finding like safety and connection with you know other staff members other peers and stuff like that and like wow like I don’t need to like live in this isolated state by myself there’s people that love me absolutely co-host getting a little bit ahead of hosts here I’m sorry I just got really excited

I love it though love your energy uh we’re gonna come right back to that um you know one one feature of that you know came up at least in um you know podcasts and uh in your literature that have come across free is the what makes it difficult to get out is this uh language of gaslighting uh in that regard and I thought you brought a brilliant metaphor forward which I had never heard were the term gasoline actually came from was an old movie of some sort I didn’t seek out the name of the movie in that regard but I thought it was a brilliant metaphor and I was hopeful that you could introduce that to our audience as well too and then we could have you know a common discussion thereafter about that as a feature of this making it kind of difficult to get out of so that the viewers can understand or maybe even experience like oh that’s what that is because I’ve experienced that too right yeah yeah I think it was a 1904 would have been earlier but essentially the the middle character was dimming the gaslights in the house the actual Lighting in the room and he did it little by little and as the woman was like I think it’s getting darker in here he’s like no it’s not just so matter-of-factly completely died denied her reality and kept turning it down until it was almost almost pitch black and when she was like no it’s definitely getting darker in here and he’s like something’s wrong with you you must have something going on in your head that’s making you like assume that it’s dark in here and it’s such a I think that’s the term originated from the movie because gaslighting is where they deny your reality they spin you around they throw you into all of these word salads so that you get so confused on what you’re even thinking feeling needing that you you like give up essentially you’re like okay I don’t need that anymore and not only that but all of that is wrong right right and that is it’s like a it’s like a sort of Silent enemy right you come in to bring your emotions your ideas thoughts into the situation and for it to be spun around into you as the experiencer right thinking well maybe I actually don’t feel any of those sort of things and to lose all of that ground that you probably ruminated about to even bring into the room in the first place right um and it probably the impact of it as well too I mean I can imagine not experiencing it you know I think in the way that you guys are sharing with the audience here as pretty shameful and defeating as an experience um so you know out of that then uh what was it like to kind of go through that so that you know maybe we can Engage The Audience just a little bit further about um insights into what that experience is like and what it feels like to go through that I know from my experience um you just really start to question yourself and your decision making and your perception of reality because perfect example with that movie um it’s slight little um things that they might lie about or shift or that conversation didn’t happen or it wasn’t said this way to the point where you do start to feel a little crazy um and so then when they call you crazy you know you’re kind of like I mean I guess I have been remembering things wrong or seeing things wrong like and you start to lose that self-esteem question you know other relationships and how you’re showing up in those and so it’s it’s just a really big mind game until you’re at a point where you don’t really even know what’s true anymore that was my experience

hopelessness real like it it used to take me weeks to to lead up to understand what I was feeling to be able to think about bringing it to the table to try to have a conversation about it because I knew that it was going to turn into a fight immediately right and that I was gonna likely leave the conversation like thinking it was my fault anyway so what’s the point of bringing it up and I remember towards the end when it got really bad like I used to take notes after fights to remind myself of what actually was said because to your point yeah it’s little things that you could almost argue with yourself like well maybe they didn’t say that or maybe we did come to a resolution around that and I just forgot or even like why would they lie about that yeah yeah yeah and the the sickest part of it is it’s such it’s such an Insidious form of abuse because they know what they’re doing and they’re doing it on purpose to deflect having to take accountability or anything right and then also to just know that they’re in control of you and your mind and it’s it is so hard to come out of that type of experience and to even understand that you are in an experience like that because it’s so it’s like you’re in a fog you cannot see you don’t know what what is real anymore so it it’s not just uh maybe an experience but a commonality because I think about it too as well like do at least in this particular situation do the men in your lives know consciously that they’re you know committing you to the suffering or is it sort of an unconscious thing because you know when we think about you know mental health and substance use disorders we do the Deep dive into inner child work and all that stuff and then we turns out on the other side men and women are kind of suffering from these you know pre-existing uh situations that they went through that form these maladapted behaviors over time and so I think about it sometimes as like you know we have one individual suffering within the toxic relationship and another is suffering from that history and projecting it um so in that way it could feel unconscious but through the experiences it’s felt like they’re consciously doing it and then maybe in the evidence as well too what you guys have learned through you know your schooling and your research and all of this as well too that these are actually there’s a real intentionality behind it yeah it’s interesting because there’s so much more research being done on this topic now and a literature that’s coming out and there is this pattern of empaths which you’re probably an empathy me too and narcissus um and this Dynamic of narcissists being able to kind of sniff out an empath um and finding those individuals who are just going to be really forgiving compassionate you know see the the good in people and stuff like that narcissism you know really stems from a lot of insecurity um and needing constant ego boosts right and so what better way than to have somebody that you can completely control somebody that continues to come back to you even in your worst moments and worst times and so you know I intentionality I think it can go lots of different ways Brandon but I think mostly yes there is intention I don’t know if they are always have awareness that it is that intentional for them what do you think I think it’s on a spectrum yeah right like we I think we both had experiences with narcissists yeah and and it can be part of their behavior is a maladaptive maladaptive behavior in order to you know deflect having to take accountability deflect having any sort of um you know light shown on that they’re not a good person or their their shortcomings so I think they learn through their life how to manipulate people so that they never have to look at that because it’s so painful so there’s an there’s an element of you know understanding they need to sort of like manipulate people and then on the very other end of that scale there are like the malignant narcissists who actually part of their narcissism is to inflict pain on purpose and so depending on sort of the type of narcissist you get if it’s a narcissist right I also think people who are not narcissists can Gaslight okay um I think it’s less intentionally to hurt people and more of just like the they they can’t take the accountability so they push push push and they just learn how to adapt but with the malignant narcissist like that they do they they get off on not just controlling you but causing you pains physical or psychological physical emotional all of it well I appreciate you drawing out the narcissist there as kind of a definition and it has a spectrum and how it operates because I think at least sometimes here at you know good old Peaks Recovery Center sometimes like somebody’s a narcissist and it’s not actually the case because it’s a very particular type of right you know person and I think I think it I think it’d be right to call it a mental health disorder right in that regard it’s not normal behaviors in the sense of how to nurture relationships and Foster them so uh so yeah I appreciate you bringing that out because sometimes that word gets lobbed around and I think right concise definition in a spectrum of it is important yeah yeah NPD like narcissistic personality disorder is a disorder that you know maybe think it’s seven percent of the population is actually diagnosed but people can have narcissistic Tendencies yeah so there’s there’s a wide there’s a wide spectrum yeah wow really one in ten almost as a disorder that’s I did not think it was that high but that’s interesting uh certainly so you know with gaslighting uh as a feature of this I mean it could be gas I mean it could be a variety of different you know little T traumas that take place but it feels like this becomes a very traumatic experience if we’re not feeling it uh within the moment as a traumatic experience it feels like in a hindsight you know kind of rearview mirror moment of it it’s pretty traumatizing and out of that so we’re not only balancing like the awareness around the condition and what we’re suffering from as well too but now we have to work through a process on the other side and what is that like you know whether it’s um you know just talk therapy to ground ourselves or you know actually identifying real trauma moments within and I think you know Brie on some of your past episodes you talked about those beginning EMDR sessions and that sort of thing to you know create that awareness and so just hopeful to talk to the viewers a little bit more about um you know trauma whether it’s Big T Little T and what that’s like to kind of start the healing process on the other side as personal experiences yeah yeah yeah I’ll start eating um gosh there’s so much you know Works to to work through with when you’re talking about these abusive relationships um I can speak for me and also kind of some of the interventions that we use at the women’s program but a lot of it starts with first you have to let go of your shame you know there’s so much shame involved with us why did I stay I can’t believe I let myself be treated like that um you know and getting out of that space first and and really recognizing like a lot of women fall into this and Men um this is a pattern that happens to a lot of people and I don’t need to live in shame and then you can start to rebuild yourself and find self-love again and self-compassion and then going into that there’s trauma interventions like EMDR and somatic experiencing brain spotting you know to get to some of the things that still are activating you know we have to Target those things like flashbacks nightmares all those things that still happen as you’re walking through it and so talk therapy processing but also these other trauma interventions I think are a really important component yeah they’re trying it’s definitely traumatic I mean there are moments in the healing process that need to be Unwound um I I talk about my experience of when I left it was like this [ __ ] slap from the universe it was the aftermath of that decision was so horrific in so many ways his behavior and what he did and all of it was so eye-opening that not only did I get confirmation that I made the right decision but I also got confirmation of how bad things were right and that’s coming back into the reality of what you were in and what it was will not only help you heal moving forward but it helps you from stop going back yes um thankfully I never had the like desire after the the second or the final attempt to to go back because of his behavior um but what that did for me is it really illuminated all of the things that I was doing that was contributing to the dynamic so my co-dependency my lack of boundaries my like lack of self-esteem and confidence like all of those things became so clear to me like okay I need to like work on that to be able to heal from this and not have this happen again because not only are they attracted to empaths but like not all empaths are Unbound read so you have to learn how to be boundaried and how to know who you are and exude that because that will in essence be less appealing to them because they can’t they can’t puppet you if you have boundaries totally right yeah so learning that is a big big part of the the healing process yeah because it there’s that relapse potential right and this you know kind of is the caring metaphor of you know addiction into toxic relationships and then without the boundaries right I mean boundaries encourage um emotional safety for the individual and so forth and without that tool kit right you know you get the text or whatever the case might be right um so I I think through that you know I always uh you know family systems at Peaks will come up they’ll say hey Brandon I’m sitting in a boundary and I’m like well tell me what the boundary is and they tell me and I’m like that’s not a boundary like that’s a wall that’s like a rule you just made up to like stop something from happening right let’s think about this a little bit more but uh because it came up as a word you know within this framework um you know I would just love for you two to share your experiences about boundaries and and what those actually are and then the power that comes with them on the other side so uh because I think it’s one of those things that viewers um you know you really do have to build some muscle around it to get it right because it is a difficult I think it’s an easy concept up front and then like when you put it into play it becomes this really challenging aspect um so share with us that please work in progress and something you know I think we are always working on getting better at but I know for me like I just have to start practicing in my relationships family friends um dating you know like when something doesn’t feel good why is that and and noticing my body and stuff um and then setting the expectation hey moving forward like um I’m not going to be treated this way or when we when we communicate like I can’t have yelling or race tones or anything like that um you set the boundary if it gets crossed then it only works if you stick to it right so that at that point you know that relationship is severed or you know you establish a new boundary um whatever that looks like next time we’re going to take a break before it gets to that point you know and stuff like that but it’s really the follow-through that has to be consistent in order for it to work and it took me a lot of practice but I’m definitely better at setting boundaries now I love it I think boundaries can sometimes come off as like a pretty clinical word for sure right yeah we use it a lot yeah and really and that can feel like I know in my experience in the beginning I was like I have to like build this Fortress around me and like this armor like that’s what I thought boundaries were which is also unhealthy you know um but boundaries really are just being able to speak your needs and your expectations in order to feel safe and supported so like if you are in a situation where you’re feeling unsafe or unseen or unsupported you can identify like oh I need to have space for my voice in this conversation too and then you can request that and people can always say yes or no right and then it comes to like well what are you gonna what is the consequence for yourself if they say no are you going to say that you can no longer have them in your life are you going to say you can no longer interact in this way like what is the how how will you take care of yourself despite them choosing to to adhere to your boundary or not um but just simplifying it down to like what do you need do you need to say no do you need to change how often you see the person like it doesn’t always have to be do this or else and in fact the ultimatums is not a boundary right yeah yeah totally and it feels like an early recovery Journeys that’s what we get is yeah the ultimatum you know if you leave treatment this happens versus I think um you know what we’ve done well in our family systems practices of course is encourage families too boundaries are prior to the event yeah your needs and your safety prior to the moment happening so it’s something to be discussed before all the other things take place and then we learn how to do that within treatment episodes and you know real quick back before we kind of bridge this Gap from you know the personal experiences into the professional side of things and you know carrying that your both your projects forward and this regard are you know going back to the moment of that honeymoon period of relationship so difficult to know in that moment if you’re with somebody who is going to potentially you know have these behaviors on the other side and you know I don’t know if there’s a silver bulletin answer or anything like this there’s probably not thinking about it out loud but you know what what can for the sake of this conversation right what can women do out there maybe to kind of locate like sort of these uh the problems as they arise and and go okay I’ve heard about that before and that seems a little bit different than a normal relationship like are there more identifying features of this weekend even if we’re working through a honeymoon you know moon phase of something um just to you know at least get people a little bit aware of it maybe it if anything it’ll support maybe the over commitment until like month nine until you can fully see what’s going on you know something like that yeah I think number one pay attention to the love bombing there’s a difference between you know the romance in the beginning of the relationship and the butterflies and the fun that comes with that right like we all enjoy that feeling um between that and like saying things too early like I’m gonna marry you you’re the love of my life you’re my soul mate we’re going to have babies together if those things are starting you know to be said really early out the gate like I would always pay attention to that um and then paying attention like a big thing for me was my body like why do I have knots in my stomach all the time you know and really listening to that gut feeling like it matters um and we teach that a lot to the women like what was your body telling you in those moments right and then noticing you know the small things like a big reaction to a small problem um or noticing it seems like their story changed and that’s not what they said last time those little things I ignored along the way but those are good indicators in the beginning like something’s up and there’s a red flag Happening Here yeah I tell clients and people I talk to in general that like if it feels too good to be true

you know like you’re taking extravagant trips within a couple of months you’re you know planning um living together after a couple of months like these big these big things that are like oh but he just loves me so much it’s like but that’s not how normal relationships progress right so and and a piece of that too is um like part of the love bombing in that whole phase is to avoid reality because it’s when you start like trying to speak your needs or trying to set a boundary or start disagreeing with them that’s when they’re like real personalities come out so if you can like start to speak your needs along the way and just see how they react when you’re like no you know I know we have plans tonight but I I really just had an overwhelming day I need to take some self-care like how do they react to that right do they respect it right or do they shame you somehow or make you feel guilty and then you’re like okay I’ll come anyway right yeah um and part of in the beginning of getting to know each other to trauma bonding can happen with narcissists it’s another way that they can see that they can like kind of latch on and you know almost be your savior in some way of like I’ll hold all of your trauma so if you find yourself over disclosing or they’re over disclosing and it’s like I shouldn’t know about your deep childhood trauma on like the second date you know yeah like that’s a little weird but there are so many like justifications that you can give for that type of behavior so part of building a healthy relationship is like slowly building trust yeah and as you lean in a little they lean in a little and then the trust builds and then you lean in a little more and they lean in a little more yeah so like do you have that dance going or is it just like you’re both full in all the way you’re moving in together and traveling to Bali like yeah yeah I love that I think that’s great insights into just the way to approach a relationship in general it you know it just has me thinking about like you know when my wife you know goes out of town or she went to a concert just last week and then I was just like you know babe you have a great time love you and then like in that moment I’m like I just get to uh appreciate that she’s off doing her thing and then I’m sitting at the home with my dogs and like I never cook and I’m like this is a bachelor moment like I get to do quesadilla and what if she’s having a good time and I get to like figure out how to survive on like cheese and you know tortillas like they used to 15 years ago and yeah um and there’s a beauty in that balance is what I’m trying to share and what comes up for me in that way of things that that time and space apart is appropriate and it’s nurturing and um might be a good indication of somebody’s resistant to their own time and space in that regard yeah two more things that just came to mind for like red flags um that just that like if you don’t really have your space anymore or if you don’t want to have your space anymore you want to spend all of your time with them they want all of your time like there’s not a healthy amount of like interdependence um and then paying attention to if they have long-standing friendships yes so yeah that’s a really good one for with narcissists specifically they don’t they’re they don’t have the capacity to truly connect and have authentic relationships that are long-standing because eventually they’ll discard right it’s not just romantic they they are manipulating and controlling everybody in their life so if you are with someone and they’re like they don’t have a friend group or their friend group is very surface and that you’re like you’ve known each other for a month or whatever you know paying attention like who are the people they have in their life yeah is a big big big red flag yeah it’s a really good one Bree put a let’s put a shindig yes get out of all the people in the room bring all your friends I’ll bring all my friends yeah you know like we’ll mingle and if no friends show up that I don’t have any friends probably run you know or if they’re all just work friends right yeah yeah you know how you know they’ve been at the job for six months or whatever like that doesn’t count as a long stance absolutely no great insights and I appreciate you bringing those uh two other aspects forward and so transitioning now uh uh I’m sure uh you knew this shared this with you we had Tim sure um doing uh his uh bringing his success and uh book on leadership and so forth into this room just a few short weeks ago the secret society of success in particular for the viewers out there go back watch it especially Professionals in our industry and so forth just a lot of great insights and how how to nurture teams and environments especially within leadership roles but I was out on a walk small little hike with him prior to him coming on the episode and I asked him you know like what inspired the book in the first place who are you writing to as an audience and he also talks about this on his leadership podcast as well too I believe it’s episode five I can’t remember his guess but both of them conveyed the point that like we write the books for ourselves first right there was something that I was doing for Tim it was like I was living in the spotlight mentally and I thought as I learned how to be you know Chief Operating Officer in time and learn those leadership skill sets you know I found that I wanted to support people so they could avoid you know that type of leadership behavior and that way of things and it seems like you know through these personal experiences and journey sitting in front of a therapist now nurturing you know women who come through Peaks uh you know and certainly in the past in your private practice and now through your coaching model as well too that out of these experiences it felt like um you know I don’t want to over stretch here but to say that kind of writing your own book in this regard and out of that truth developing these you know business models and so forth that can be supportive of others that are suffering in the same way and um you know certainly correct me if I’m wrong but your services um uh seem to start with the cord cutting ceremony in that in that way and I think that’s a powerful aspect of lucid living and what you’re bringing uh to women that you’re coaching and would just love to you know start with that as a as a platform as a ceremonial event that takes place and where would that was inspired from and then we’ll just you know build on the professionalism from there yeah so before the coaching before this Direction with working with dysfunctional relationships and finding healing in that I started doing just cord cutting ceremonies I had taken a course in Shamanism during quarantine actually okay because it was the first time that I wanted to explore spirituality I was never a religious person I didn’t grow up in church I didn’t really have a concept for a higher power and a friend of mine was running this course on Shamanism like that makes sense like nature signs animals like all that feels more natural to me so part of that course was learning this ceremony learning this cord cutting ceremony and it’s performed in a lot of different ways but essentially it’s being able to energetically detach from anything that’s that’s an energy leak so that’s sucking your energy so a lot of uh people who do cord cuttings will do it between you and another person which is totally valid we have energy exchange with everybody we come in contact with what resonated for me was to be able to detach from a past version of yourself so when I work with clients we go through a 12-week container and we get really clear on what what is that version of you that’s in these relationships what are the patterns and the beliefs and the you know maladaptive things that you learned and and getting a good view of her and being able to then move towards your higher self and be able to let her go and it’s not from a place of I hate you you ruined my life it’s it’s from a place of love and honor because we all learn different things on different parts of our journey so just because I wasn’t given the tools to know what a healthy relationship was and set the foundation for me to be more attractive to narcissists or unhealthy people like that was not that was not um there’s nothing wrong with that inherently it’s like integrating that experience and learning from it and then moving continuing to move forward but if we have this energy leak into that version of us and we’re feeling shame and embarrassment and heaviness from all of that it’s hard to it’s hard to keep going right so being able to energetically let that go and just it’s it’s really a commitment ceremony to you and your healing of this is what I know this is what I know I no longer need and this is this is what I’m choosing to do yeah it’s it’s powerful and I know it’s brought up on some of the past podcast episodes that you’re on and you’re welcome to represent these podcasts on here because it was uh it was Rise From the Ashes or From the Ashes from yeah is it was an excellent podcast I thought the narration of it was great who’s the host of it uh Mark Azula Mark aslay uh great stuff and I thought he did a wonderful job but his sort of it just reminds me in this moment uh you know just to bring basically his metaphor that he brought to you that we weren’t severing things here right it’s kind of a you know kind of pushing the suffering boat out to see in that regard and having a ceremonial sort of view of it in that regard a Letting Go feature rather than like we’re going to be done thinking about that right because these experiences are stuck in time right so they are very real things that you know at least in our psyche will carry through in some aspect for our lifetimes in that regard and so I think it’s a more of a light gentle push out to see as he said you know in that regard versus like burn the ship to the ground sort of experience yeah absolutely I’ve had clients have experiences of one client in particular she we always integrate on the back end of what the ceremony was like and she’s like I saw this past version of my self almost holding back the darkness being like go go go like I got it like you can leave like I’m okay and you’re okay and she said that was the most profound permission that she had ever understood from herself and that’s how change happens right it happens when we internally know and when we feel it and when we experience it um so yeah it’s definitely a place of like that girl went through some [ __ ] girl or guy right I do chord cuttings for all genders but um it’s it’s it’s like respecting yeah that part of your story and letting it still be in the story without having to be attached to you energetically right now love it yeah yeah I love it how does it you know and you loving it too how does that really you know like in your journey in that regard you know um you know maybe you don’t call it in your therapy sessions cord cutting that sort of thing but is there something like that that you think from a therapeutic value composition that you walk you know clients through as well to that we can share with the audience I mean honestly it’s similar to what Bree’s talking about um we go at a lot of different angles we we have a grief week in our curriculum you know and sometimes they grieve the loss of the relationship of the person but a lot of times they’ll grieve kind of I’m letting go of that part of me um I don’t need to hold on to her anymore I don’t need to shame her anymore and so you know we’ll do what’s called empty chair work an evidence-based intervention there’s literally an empty chair sitting across from you a lot of people start with feeling like it’s pretty weird and hokey but if they let themselves kind of sink into the experience imagining that version of themselves sitting across from them letting them go saying goodbye thanking them for things that they’ve learned from them and then we also kind of lean into inner child work a lot of these patterns start younger it isn’t like these confident strong women are just walking about and they just get swooped up by a nurse this is right like there were there were pieces and parts that weren’t working before low self-esteem I was bullied in school my dad you know wasn’t there for me and so it creates the inner workings to be susceptible to those types of relationships so we need to go back to that that little part of you that you know inner child that’s still hurting and needs nurturing and we do some writing around that we do some Bodywork around that creating safe a safe space where you can feel safe and also like nurture that part of you and also sounds corny but you know sometimes we need to re-parent ourselves is what we call you know talking to ourselves in the way that we need it and and you you literally see people kind of like start to come up to their age I once worked with a client who presented very young in session and then as we continue to do this work she she started to look and act her age um so yeah really cool stuff yeah it’s powerful stuff you know as industry insiders we get to you know often you know I mean you know I came to this industry as I’ve shared on this podcast many of times like totally ground I didn’t even know what a PHP was and IOP you know talks to relationships wouldn’t even been thinking about it you know in my mind coming into this and first readings of some of this stuff I think in the public sphere of things is like it is hokey it is kind of yeah you know Fufu snap or whatever like why are they doing this why am I paying a thousand dollars a day to send my loved one Retreats and do this you know at the end of the day but you know we get to live and experience the the change in real time and it’s some of the the great gifts we get um as an industry is to see that progress and that change and so you know hold on to that viewers because we it is very real and it is very special uh as a process and you know you two women get to bring people through these processes in this extraordinary way and it’s just powerful and you know with that you know Brie I want to talk just a little bit about that curriculum you know within Lucid living and okay so we’re at cord cutting ceremony we have that acceptance to move forward in this path and to do the challenging thing to learn all the boundaries to learn the insights and to you know start backing out of that relationship uh so you know after cord cutting where do we go from there usually the cord cutting is towards the end of the so I work in the 12-week containers okay and it’s towards the end so what we’ve been doing for the weeks leading up to is really getting clear on who they are because also what happens in these relationships and because we’re primed to be codependent we are very externally focused and so we know what everyone else needs we know how to anticipate other people we’re very hyper Vigilant we we got everything else besides ourselves and that often comes from what we learn when we’re young and so being able to help them see that those Tendencies are from your childhood circumstances yeah and the phenomenon of repetitive compulsion I teach about because it’s fascinating to me that we experience a wounding in our childhood and then we adopt behaviors to try to get our needs met because it’s too painful for us to assume that it’s our parents responsibility that something happened because they’re the superhero right so we assume all fault and then we adapt all these behaviors to try to manipulate to get our needs met and then as we go like move into adulthood we are choosing people unconsciously that represent the original wounding to try to fix it now and that’s why we attract people who like they say you’re dating your mom or you’re dating your dad it’s like because that’s the original wound that we’re trying to work out with this person but it’s not it’s not it doesn’t work you just re-wound yourself so bringing Clarity to all of these pieces of the puzzle and how you can drop shame around all of this experience because you were set up with this deck of cards and so we aren’t responsible for the traumas that happen but we’re responsible for like clearing them so that they’re not driving our life from the back seat so bringing all of that for forward and then helping them identify what are your values what are your needs and your wants like that exercise that I do with clients is one of the most profound because they’ve never asked themselves those questions I remember in my healing when I did that it I was like I don’t know what do you like like that was literally my answer and I had to go moment to moment throughout my day of like okay I think I’m doing something I like and I’d write it down like that was how disconnected I was from myself and I share that with clients because it like there’s no shame in that if you weren’t taught how to be self-reflective and if you weren’t in a safe enough environment to explore yourself because you had to be hyper Vigilant on everyone else like that’s not your fault yeah so helping them start to get curious and date themselves because we can’t have healthy relationships externally until we have a healthy one internally right so we get curious we learn how to build trust with ourself we learn how to communicate and hold boundaries with ourself because part of building the trust is like not letting your little girl get hurt anymore so you have to prove to her that you’re going to show up and so doing all those pieces and then coming to the cord cutting and allowing them to let her go let all of that maladaptive coping and survival go is such a it’s such like the crescendo of the of the experience gotcha yeah terrible reading of the cord cutting and what in my future about it you know I just saw it you know as I’m reading through the literature and listening to the podcast and uh you know in that regard like you know speaking of like you know just historical principles that form like it’s I see the words cord cutting I’m like oh that’s the beginning because that’s how I came into this world so that would be the beginning of the ending of the relationship like into the curriculum so that’s my missed charitable misreading of of that situation so thank you for clarifying that absolutely not fully though because I do I hold individual cord cutting ceremonies too okay um and sometimes people who have come to those actually turn into clients okay so it can happen in sort of both ways because it sort of brings awareness to more things that you need to like identify yeah but in terms of the actual coaching container the the structure is that it happens towards the end got it okay well now we have to do the whole episode over again so we’ll just we’ll just start it for minute one and we’ll do the whole thing again uh so that’s brilliant so at what point in the process are we actually like moving I mean to me it sounds like it’s going to come up sometime on the Spectrum where we actually exit the relationship like where does that actually take place in your curriculum or is it just uh when the inspiration obtains or when the individual finally feels ready within that process but it feels like it’s going to happen before cord cutting as the full curriculum right yeah everybody everybody’s on their own track so some people I start working with when they’re already exited and either can’t stop going back or they’re like that was what was that that was a narcissistic situation I don’t know how to move forward so some people have already made the decision that they that was crazy and they need to heal but other people are either still in the process of going back and just need more data so I do a lot of data collection we do a lot of journaling a lot of bringing you back into reality again of like what’s happening now how are they showing up right now how does that compare to your values and are they meeting your needs and once once you start identifying what these things are you start setting a bar for yourself so that you can finally like like weigh someone against that because if you don’t know what you need or who you are you’ll take whatever is given to you so to be able to have a backboard of like oh wait I really Value Health and Fitness and they sit on the couch all weekend like well is that working for you you know and just being it being able to look at it pretty objectively yeah um and and having those sort of like seeds right planted where they come to the conclusion on their own of how it’s not working instead of me coming in being like all right week five he’s out you know yeah that’s not in sweaty Palms week five have to do the thing right yeah and really like the first very first week we take an inventory and that’s really focused on the partner and the dynamic but after week one we’re really we’re really focusing on them and what they’re feeling and what they’re experiencing so they can choose to stay or leave at any point during that that process right and that that sounds critically important too because I went I did my you know trauma five-day intensive once upon a time a couple years ago and I got into like day two of it you know we’re just doing like you know reading letters or something like this and uh there were five people in the group uh two men three women and like on day two the three women were like you know what I think we’re done with our relationships I think that’s the price you know there’s it was such a such a Sprint to that it’s like the silver bullet pulled the lever Finish Line and so I think there’s a maturity within the curriculum in that regard and an actual honoring of the person who’s absent within it because they might not be in the you know dire position of you know the full-blown narcissist in that regard and there might be room for Behavioral change and room for reconnecting in that regard and so having that exploratory sort of period makes a great deal of sense because it would be easy to be like you know fire alarm with no understanding just pull the lever and do it but you know uh that would feels kind of short-sighted within a curriculum sort of side of things yeah I definitely work with clients who are with narcissists or have been with narcissists but I also work with clients who are just in dysfunction and and I try to steer away from like one person’s the villain and one person’s you know like the one being taken taken advantage of because in my definition of a dysfunctional relationship it takes two people to create a dysfunctional relationship right because if you have dysfunction and your partner doesn’t your partner’s not going to hang around right you know both people are in dysfunction that’s why you’re dancing so like you can take responsibility for what’s yours and then as you take responsibility for what’s yours paying attention to are they taking responsibility for what’s theirs and if they are and there’s room to to work on communication or rebuild trust or whatever awesome I’m not in the business of like trying to like break up people just to break up people if it’s abusive and it’s like you know clearly an unsafe situation where there are more real conversations that happen but not all of my clients are leaving their Partners or yet or are ready or whatever they’re all in different sort of phases of of it but my job as the coach is to help them get clarity on their side of the street what is what is theirs who are they what are they bringing to the relationship and controlling what they can control and giving responsibility to their partner for what they’re responsible for so they’re not responsible for their emotions and their reactions and their life anymore yeah you know and really choosing to step out of that rescuer role and disrupt the system and see what happens like does that other person rise in their healing or do they discard you to find another person that will fill that role yeah absolutely powerful stuff I we’re coming up on time here um and I want to be sensitive to that and just so grateful for this conversation and I know it can continue in a variety of different ways um but I’m I’m bringing on uh the the Colorado uh natural medicine folks uh next week who are pushing forward the legislation that would bring plant-based medicine into organization like Peaks Recovery Center is certainly into practices like yours down the road in 2026 in that regard and um so before I dive into that I just want to check the box you know with you Bri to see if there’s anything else you know you’re that I might be missing or that you would like to add to this discussion maybe that we’ve kind of glossed over to this point or I think we’ve covered a lot of a lot of good territory yeah a lot of good stuff awesome well um so plant-based medicine across your platforms and podcasts and things that you’ve done you’ve been so vulnerable about it in your own experiences of working with plant-based medicine and for me and us at Peaks recovery centers um you know when we we’ve talked about it on the show we’ve talked about it with our psychiatrists our doctors and so forth you know ssris work 30 of the time around major depressive disorders like there’s a great deal of limitations in what we’ve been able to bring forward as an industry and so plant-based medicine is bringing forward just a world of potential in that regard and so um you know before you know next week’s episode I hope you could share in some of that vulnerability around your experiences as well too but maybe introduce the topic to our viewers in a way around that those components of intentionality that we talked about prior to the episode and sort of you know the value propositions through your personal experiences and then what you’ve seen in sort of those communal settings in your travels and the power that you know comes with it when we’re not looking at it as something to abuse but something to gain insights Within and what comes from you know those experiences yeah oh gosh yeah set and setting is so important so important I was never a recreational psychedelic user so I don’t have the experience of of using it on that purpose yeah um but being in circles with people who either are in recovery or have used it and had really bad trips before when you are held in a circle with a facilitator and it’s sacred this is sacred medicine oftentimes that we’re working with and it’s treated with respect and there’s a structure and you feel safe you can surrender in that so when we’re held we can actually lean in when we don’t have any boundaries when we don’t have anybody to hold us then that’s when we need to get protective and our defenses come in and we start having these bad experiences so doing it in a way that’s sacred and honoring and that you’re coming in with something that you want to work with or an intention that you have is so so important it’s important and you might have an intention and be shown something completely different yeah so true so the bigger intention is really to surrender to the process of the medicine because it’s when we start to fight what’s happening that it gets harder and I don’t like to use the verbiage of like a bad experience and a good experience because if you have a lighter more fun more visual experience you could be learning just as much as if you are diving into your trauma and you’re seeing darkness and it’s a heavier experience so kind of being open and being being willing to face whatever will be presented and not try to control it the number one fear that I hear from people who want to come on Retreat or or do these circles is like I don’t like being out of control I’m like that’s probably what you’re going to work on then because you have you have to surrender um but if you’re in a space with someone you trust the medicine is pure you know so many Ayahuasca specifically has has blown up in the in the news and so going down to Peru or to other places where it’s commercialized now and there are some really reputable treatment centers and there are some who are doing it to make a lot of money and they’re not doing it from a place of reverence for the medicine so just being really careful of who you’re sitting with um and as far as the medicine itself I think there’s there’s place for all parts of healing there’s place for the processing and more of the analytical under standing of what’s Happening there’s plates for the trauma work that you do with the therapist there’s also a place for spirituality and there’s a place for plant medicine in a way that it helps you lower your defenses so that you can actually access these these pain points these wounds so when we’re in when we’re in our our conscious mind our ego is often playing like the bouncer so when we take a substance like Ayahuasca or psilocybin or MDMA or ketamine or whatever it is it helps to it helps to remove the bouncer so that we can actually get in there to the places of our mind that often feel too scary to touch and what we find not obviously not everyone’s experience is the same but the the part even if it’s scary and dark in the in the initial like introduction of that if you lean into it it changes and it transforms into something beautiful and so it’s such an analogy for life right of like not running away from our pain but actually opening up the light into it and that’s how we heal it is we look at it and we integrate it if we keep running it when we keep stuffing like it’s just gonna come out some other ways it’s not it doesn’t go anywhere yeah yeah I love it I love it too I think that you know it’s it’s a challenging I it feels internally like a challenging conversation at the same time it doesn’t feel like it should be challenging um in that regard and being so close to substance use disorder I can I I think this is an important discussion because we really want to soften the hearts and the minds of individuals who see it you know abused in this sort of pervasive you know sort of way you know one of the things you know marijuana of course can come up as a plant you know based medicine discussion but you know what we find in a place like finding Peaks is it’s used maladaptively it’s not a ceremonial sort of experience where you know on a Saturday I was being challenged and I wanted to gain insights into why I’m feeling depressed today or something yeah commonly at least in Peaks right they’re using it to numb the aspects of that sort of feature right and it’s so it’s a constant commitment that forms addictive behavior around it that we can never really get away from and we lose focus of that intentionality and so you know for the viewers out there to hear these experiences in a different sort of way that will that are time limited experiences well too you know in some instances certainly I think you know when you get into psilocybin so if you’re going to get into these micro dosing Concepts that can go on for months and that sort of thing but without the hallucinogenic you know consequences that you know might come from macro dosing over a significant period of time in that regard and one of the things that you know commonly at least in the men’s program they’re like Brandon I can do this on weed and I’m like do what like walk me through that and in that regard we’re not trying to do anything on Silo Simon or MDMA or these sort of things we’re trying to get into in behind the defense mechanisms that talk therapy can take a great deal of time to you know punch through in that regard and so these medicines you know coming down the pipelines hopefully here in the state of Colorado in that regard can provide this opportunity to go from a you know a state of what would be otherwise you know 90 days of resistance through a talk therapy episode into um a moment of healing and opportunity that even on the other side of the you know using the plant-based medicine just an opportunity for therapists to be sitting there and like hey let’s keep working this now that we’re tender and raw and feeling these experiences and certainly that’s going to require a great deal of training for you know practitioners and you know all around the country in that regard but it’s very powerful it’s coming down the chutes here it’s coming down the pipelines and we’re very excited about it at Peaks recovery centers because it offers something new in a way where you know we’ve talked about it as well too Joanna Conti Vista research conquer addiction that you know outcomes for the last 33 years in substance use disorder have remained at 33 or below in general and we can do so much better and now we have these tools you coming to us in which we can in doing it the right way creating intentionality creating the spaces for it non-sterile environments really taking seriously the spirituality and all the components that come along with it we might be able to I know really move this thing forward in a really big powerful way especially with opioid use disorder deaths I mean 107 000 last year I mean people are losing their life to substances all around us and the stories that I’m hearing not just from substances but you know process addictions and so forth that are coming out of this and the healing that comes is just so powerful so it just gives me a great deal of Hope and I just appreciate you so much for at least these small minutes you know being able to share in that experience to soften a little bit of the hearts and the minds of our industry and you know the folks on the other side of the camera yeah yeah there’s also an interesting thing that can happen with plant medicine where it’s it’s you know when we’re doing trauma work often we have to like um relive it right we have to consciously bring it up and work through it and and sometimes with plant medicine you also get the somatic release because we know that the body keeps the score right there’s all of this this new wave of therapy practices the embodiment practices the somatic focus of how much we store in our tissues and for me personally well before I ever got visuals on any type of plant medicine mine was completely somatic so my body would just move and it would Tremor and it would release and I would cry and it was like it was doing it I didn’t know what it was doing but it was doing something so even on that like very physiological level it’s like letting the medicine go in and work for you work with you and moving to the point of if you you know get the video visuals and see the experience or whatever your whatever it is even if you have a non-experience we’ve had people in the Retreats that I help co-facilitate who will take a dose and sometimes seconds of of the Ayahuasca and they’re like I didn’t feel anything I fell asleep like you know and part of that is just trusting that your experience is exactly what you’re supposed to get right and if you needed to fall asleep so that your body could heal from the level of nervous like um how wound up your nervous system is perfect you know um but allowing the medicine to to really be your ally in in your healing yeah and the power and the speed of it as well too you know even if medications are going to work for major depressive disorder uh severe anxiety and those sort of things in many cases it takes four to six weeks to experience that neuroeptic to even feel the positive relief you know that will follow from it and now we’re talking about you know hours to experience you know that sort of you know physiological relief and certainly the mental relief that’s happening at you know simultaneously or you know in conjunction with it so yeah we’ve had people who have been on depression or anxiety meds for years or most of their life decide to tie tray off before their their Retreat their Ayahuasca experience and you know that’s a scary choice right if you’ve if you’ve had this crutch with you most of your life you’re giving a great deal of trust to how you’re going to feel leading up to the a treat what the retreat’s going to be and then many of them don’t go back on their medications so that that shows you in very like concrete evidence how these medicines are helping to open new neural Pathways expand the brain offer insights and really change things that otherwise had only been you know having a Band-Aid sort of put on top so like to your point about 30 percent success rate in the addiction field that’s that’s like almost non-existent yeah that’s so low so if we have another solution why why is it so condemned in these spaces and why is it so um you know the perception is that people in recovery shouldn’t be doing plant medicine because it’s mind-altering yeah but if your intention is to lean in and not to run away because we use drugs and alcohol to run away if your intention is to lean in like that’s a healing process that’s a healing modality yeah absolutely that’s so cool you know the you know my basic insights into it kind of at the 12th hour here is that you know when we think we’ve we’ve worked so hard on these episodes we I think addiction was an important word that we used today but you know at Peaks we’ve tried so hard to move away from it towards substance use disorder you know uh major depressive disorders because to us they’re all mental health disorders at the end of the day and it’s no longer making sense to us from an integrated care model that you know mental health has to go that way and addiction has to go this way and so forth because the terminology itself seems to inform this character trait right that we can’t get away from and I think that is one of the harmful principles of it over time that has led to the you know decision where it’s having us ignoring facts like neuroplasticity or somatic events that the body actually really can heal and the mind can heal from these very extraordinary disruptions uh that we’re experiencing and so uh you know to me this is just another way of opening up that our bodies have this capacity and our minds have this capacity and what we’re hearing and seeing on the other side isn’t like um you know as I shared with you about a woman who shared her ibogaine’s story with me prior to this episode she didn’t go do ibogaine and then just like casually use heroin on the other side of it it was a complete discontinuation of it on the other side and it you know it’s not folks who go into these things with major depressive disorders and you know experience them on the other side There’s real healing that’s following from this in a complete removal of the symptomology and so through plant-based medicines we’re just we’re you know what takes five years to do in the general framework of abstinence is seemingly being done within you know hours and a couple of weeks and certainly follow-up care and case management is going to be important in all of this at the end of the day but yeah it feels like the evidence is there and it’s surfacing in a really valuable way and I just cannot wait to see what it brings to our industry and the healing that it’ll bring to not only our patients at Peaks but for the individuals that you’re coaching along you know these Journeys to gain these insights

to integrate trauma because trauma gets stuck in us when we are in fight or flight when we’re in that that response and so if you if your nervous system has never felt safe enough to be able to allow you to access the things that need to be integrated you won’t so if you’re finding safety through plant medicine if you’re finding it through you know doing other types of Ceremonies or your therapist or your coach that you really resonate with that you can let your defenses down like that’s that’s what matters that’s how we that’s how we that’s how we heal beautiful yeah well there’s so much to talk about here we’re just we’re just gonna have to invite you back I think in a future episode just to talk more about this stuff or maybe even coming on with you know a Colorado natural medicine in that regard if you have the time that would be awesome but um the finding Peaks crew in the background is going to kill me for going over time here so I want to I want to wrap this up and take the viewers out but at the same time I know we said act natural just be cool we got cameras and lights all around here but you know if you could look into the camera and kind of just you know tell uh the viewers and share with them what Lucid living’s you know doing how to find you how to explore your resources all of those types of things um you know take us out in that sort of way sure okay camera um so I do a lot of my marketing on Instagram I love to share information and resources and knowledge through there so on Instagram I’m Lucid living with brie I also have a website with free resources and you can access the links to my coaching and and to apply for that but like first and foremost if you are feeling any sort of confusion around a relationship what I do is help clients find Clarity so confusion on what healthy what a relationship that’s healthy looks like or doesn’t look like um confused why you can’t stop going back to the same type of people or confused on how to move forward from something that was really painful wonderful awesome thank you so much for being here today thank you thank you for having me it’s good to have you on yeah and hopefully a friendship has formed here as we thought I’m going to be her friends and go on her yeah so yeah wonderful awesome well thank you so much uh viewers out there for joining us for this special episode of Finding Peaks we hope you learned a great deal about this we’re taking notes diligently in the background locate these resources nurture yourself your loved ones in that regard and finding Peaks at peaksrecovery.com or insights questions thoughts ideas that’s how we get the ideas to produce these episodes at the end of the day find us in all the things Facebook twitters Instagrams The Tick Tock Chris Burns panelist chess mental health awareness heart day all those things he does each and every morning as well too and until next time we’ll see you then

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Episode 71A Passionate Recovery StoryWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/QVPP0XrBX6MListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, we have a very special guest, Eric Woods, a CCA at Peaks Recovery whose approach has impacted many of our client’s lives by providing support throughout the in-between treatment times. He opens up about his inspiring recovery story and how he found his true calling in helping others find their authentic path to recovery.

Talking Points1. Eric’s story 2. How Chris can relate to Eric’s story 3. How Erik found his calling 4. What showing up truly means Quotes

”Working at Peaks I learned what recovery is. To me, recovery is more than just your addiction. Addiction is just a piece of recovery. When you are in recovery you’re working on your whole life, character defects, the trauma that brought on the addiction, you are working on all of it… Recovery showed me how to look at me.”– Eric Woods

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 71Transcriptshello and welcome to another episode of finding peaks i’m jason friesma chief clinical officer of peaks recovery centers here in colorado springs uh joined as always by my good friend chris burns president founder peaks recovery uh chris i do want you to introduce your socks uh compression what do we got going on here compression we’re looking for a little bit of runner recovery we’re training for a marathon in breckenridge here in the beginning of october and i am tossing it up to mental health so i’m doing everything i can in my power to make sure that i’m recovering appropriately and i heard that these uh compression socks are all the jams so we’re going to keep them going and i got the 80s throwback to go with it so they approved for me to wear these on the show today which i was really going to say i grew up watching guys play hoop like that uh in the 80s it was pretty cool got your larry birds on there so and then uh it is my honor to introduce eric woods client carried with peaks recovery centers i’ve had the privilege of getting to know eric and watching him work over the last couple years and there’s just something about this guy sitting on the couch and um brandon has talked about uh outcomes research but part of our outcomes research is we do client surveys and uh our clients especially our male clients almost without exception mention this man uh and the impact he’s made on on their lives and eric gets the opportunity to talk to clients not when they’re in group necessarily but just kind of when they’re hanging out and uh when they arrive also but just kind of in the between times and uh his story and and just how he approaches his work seems to impact them significantly so eric welcome i want to first welcome you and then um to whatever degree you feel comfortable i’d love for you to just kind of uh tell tell the viewers and the listeners just a little bit about yourself and your story and how you how you got here to peaks well first of all 42 years old i found myself first first of all suffering from uh man a lot of trauma from sexual abuse abandonment um and so many different issues as a child and uh shortly after i was uh falsely imprisoned as a child um so i dealt with that um then came uh gangs uh years of gangs in imprisonment uh they go hand in hand when i was 18 uh i found my best friend uh uh i felt love and a substance for the first time and with that with that substance i i traded everything that loved me i traded in the the the love and warmth of my my mother uh the connections with my siblings uh uh uh the embrace of my children uh my companies uh uh my life uh for this substance um
about three years ago me my wife coming out of jail uh found sobriety and sobriety is great i recently found when when i started working at peaks uh i found that sobriety and recovery is a world apart then they’re there night and day um within my sobriety i mean everything was okay but it was shaky man uh at any given moment anything could fall apart man uh i was only working on my sobriety you know nothing else uh coming to peaks uh i didn’t come through the program of peaks but working at peaks man i i i got to learn what recovery is um and to me recovery is
more than just your addiction you know uh addiction is just a piece of recovery when you’re in recovery you’re working on your whole life you’re working on your character defects uh you’re working on the trauma that made the monster uh that brought down the addiction uh you’re working on all of it i i spent a lifetime um believing that i was jaded first of all uh wronged from the trauma i endured the falsely imprisonment and everything else and with that i acted out in society and i’ve always thought that everyone you guys other people in society could never like me or accept me or because uh i’m big i’m black i’m a criminal i’m this i’m bad everything on everyone else and never on me and recovery i found that it wasn’t them it was actually me i got character defects uh major character defects um recovery showed me how to look at me you know i’m i was abused uh very very abused and i’ve always seen abuse you know whether it was my mom and dad abusing each other my aunts and uncles uh the community within which i lived in uh abusing each other uh it’s always abuse you know i’ve never known anything else and you know hurt people hurt people you know so i spent my life hurting people uh those around me uh my wife my my children are breaking them down beating them up i’m abusing them in every way i can i physically mentally emotionally spiritually you know um with recovery you know it it helped me through everything figured out why i was so abusive and it’s because i was so abused you know um my recovery helped me with my trauma uh it helped me pinpoint what made the animal the monster that i became um with true recovery i believe uh my belief is true recovery takes one year it takes one year of your life uh if you give true recovery one year of your life it will give you a life you’re not willing to give back and what i mean by that is if you take one year it’s one year one year of the rest of your life i mean if you spend one year uh doing anything and everything you possibly can to make that change in your life that means making the sacrifices showing up for yourself uh showing up for your recovery or your program get a sponsor do the steps okay maybe the meetings ain’t for you they’re not for everybody they work but anyone and everyone whether you’re in recovery or not could benefit from a 12-step program you don’t do anything and everything you can in order to show up for yourself and your recovery at that end of that year i believe because it happened to me recovery will give you a life you’re not willing to give back and what i mean by this is at the end of that year of you faking it until you make it you know um i never knew how to be a good man i never seen a good man you know i i never seen it so when i found recovery man i had to lie about all of it man you know i had to show up for my wife in a way i’ve never shown up for anyone like myself before you know i mean i had to act like i care and i love her and i adore her and be a good man stand up stay off social media don’t flirt with girls and change my complete character for your man affected all right man i affected all man i showed up for my recovery for a complete year at the end of that year man uh my wife is left she’s just completely in love with me and man the only thing i got to do now is show up every day for my life because at the end of that year it was just part of my life recovery became just a change of life it’s just my life now and and it’s amazing i am not willing to give this up for anything i mean so let me let me interrupt you for a second eric like i before the show we were we were talking a little bit that um you’ve been through some experiences in your 40-plus years here on earth and um i think you share with clients and you share with people that like you can find a piece of yourself in my story and i wanted to actually ask chris then specifically like what do you what do you hear in chris’s story that reminds you of you what i hear in eric’s story yeah where i say christmas story history yeah coming off a covid you know i’m sitting here listening to you man and in a lot of ways and maybe in a lesser intense way like i’ve felt like i’m not a part of and felt like i am different and felt like um because of the intensity of which i showed up in this world that i couldn’t be a part of certain cultures and certain groups and community-based resources and so that’s a huge part that i really relate to in your story is just you know the developmental process and the abuse that’s really assumed throughout that process and really the negative impacts that anchor our lives as a result and that’s why i love love recovery and we don’t have to talk about sobriety because recovery gives us that authentic opportunity to come up off of the tree branches and get down to that root yeah you know and really really treat it and repair it and that’s something so beautiful that you’ve done because you don’t show up intensely anymore you show up like you said earlier was compassion and empathy and that was something to your point jason that really struck me about eric’s story the first time i sat down and he said he sat down he said bud you’ll find yourself in my story i promise you and i’m like nobody’s ever said that i just believe that to be true in the clients um you know i was on the show two weeks ago and i said one of the greatest compliments that i get from clients is your staff really wants to be here they care they got great work-life balance it’s such a great compliment to receive but i peace has been around eight years as of september first first off i’m not sure that we ever got any feedback whatsoever in eight years in regards to a overnight staff stuff in eight years and so the impact that you have and just these meaningful moments that matter man and i know you’re on days now and you get the guys all day long and it’s beautiful but maybe you can talk to the viewers a little bit about you know in the evening when you would come in in the graveyard like that’s really where you found your foundation as a professional and really leaned in with your story to a lot of these guys and meaningful moments that matter maybe you could touch with the viewers i’m like what that meant to you in those evening hours really connected see what with the evenings to be able to connect with the clients it is funny because i suffer from social anxiety you know and to come into this job you know especially in the evenings when they’re not in group and they’re not doing this and that you know they’re there they’re present you know you the job is to connect with the clients i mean to me suffering from social anxiety man that frightened me oh right i mean such as i’m frightened sitting here now it really frightened me so to get over that what i did was instead of me going out and mingling and trying to engage with them uh i had each and every one of them individually come sit down with me and talk with me and me not being a talker such as i am now about so passionate about recovery me not being a talker what i would do is ask them a key question to get them talking you know and every time they’ll stop or slow down i had a little more of a question and with that i started to engage oh man i could relate to that let me tell you a little bit about this let me tell you what happened to me and next thing i know what mingling and we’re talking i’m connecting man i i found my calling i found my calling doing this man and inside recovery man i don’t suffer from that that social anxiety man it’s so easy to connect with them and man so far each and every one of them have been able to find their self and in my story i can relate to that rather whether you’re suffering from trauma uh sexual abuse uh addiction or abandonment uh uh whatever it may be i can relate to that i’ve been to that uh i know someone who that happened to man i feel you that man with that being said man i’m oh i’m able to
get down and have have have an intimate relationship with these guys man we we lean on each other and we cry and we cry and we laugh and we share stories and we tell tales of what we’re going to do in our recovery man and it’s amazing you know with that they go on to find their recovery and find themselves not still hear from so many of these clients daily i mean daily i’m getting calls of what they’re doing how i changed their life and how i impacted them and their family and thank you for this and think man i’ve never got this before you know i’ve i’ve always been a leader i mean i’ve always been a leader uh unfortunately i i’ve led my little homies into the penitentiary i’ve led a couple of them into the graveyard i’ve never led anyone to to freedom you know i never helped anyone get the the bondage to change off i helped put them on but never get them off man to to to see that i’m reaching these people in a way that no one in their life ever had me it’s amazing with all that i’ve done in my life man i i want to benefit people i i want to to help man i i got a lot to make up for it it took me 20 years i mean three years of recovery it looks amazing and it feels amazing man i i got a marriage that is solid man i i got my kids back and uh i got this great job that’s career-based i got people who i’ve never thought would ever have anything to do with me telling me they love me and they appreciate me in there
i’ve never been an inspiring person yeah man that feels like a warm blanket man i remember i remember they were like i remember the first time someone’s like thank you thank me chris burns what the hell i mean i’m a true i’m a true junkie man i mean i i love to get hot like i said i re i replaced everything for this substance everything my my kids my wife everything for this substance man and and now i’m replacing this substance with something else uh with with uh the possibility of change a good life man um if i’m going to do this i’m going to make it worth it yeah and that recovery thing too it feels it’s that free drug i am going to get higher life i’m going to continue to get higher and higher higher with that being said man i am making the change in my life man uh um i’m seeking therapist man to help me with with the entanglements that’s within me man uh i i’m seeking the program of recovery man i’m going out into the world and i’m making the change in my life like i said you could either be the reason of a change or a victim of change i am making the change in my life and i’m going to do more and more and more that i can to continue to get higher and higher and higher in my life and that comes you know when you start getting high on life uh your your fix comes in in the way of success you know i mean your bag is a bag of success oh man i want my bag to get bigger and bigger man yeah bigger and bigger man eric talk about how working in this role and finding your ability to ask clients questions and connect with them how has that affected your personal journey in your own recovery in the last couple years it’s the show up it it it’s the show up no one in my life has ever expected me to show up uh a man you know it’s not it’s not the age you know that makes you the man it’s the ex you know no one has ever expected me to show up a man my clients do uh my my my career dude my my recovery dude man when i get to go in there and and these guys who look up to me man for in a positive way no it’s not because i’m big homie you know me they’re looking up to me in a positive way man it’s erica sarah’s moving around like guys listen to this story man this is going on in life listen to what says what what what recovery is done for me today i mean it’s always in the recovery of my life is always something new it’s always you guys heard a year a year and some change ago it was my kids man uh then it was this and that man this this this week it’s my family you know i’m 42 years old i’ve never met my father you know a white man raised me good luck i can’t even say a good man but he’s always been there i’ve never met my biological father last week his sister which i’ve never met or heard of anything just out the blue card wow i got a little brother i got a big sister such a big family in little rock arkansas so once again in my recovery i got this she told me that about six years ago she tried to reach out to me on facebook man i was so damn high uh i slightly remember but i don’t do me oh i am in recovery i get these opportunities to have all that man to have all that to have this and and so much more man i mean i get high when i come to work and get what i get from my clients to get what i get from the the staff there man when i go home and my wife’s in love with the men i’ve became and when i’m able to show up for for my parents and and be the son that they deserve man when i am now a pillar in the same community that terrorized oh man
yeah my my mind is blowing man i want more yeah it feels too like were just scratching the surface it’s just it just meant like i said man it took me 20 years it took me 20 years man to put my life and and the destruction that it was it you know three years the recovery looks great on me it looks great on me but you know it’s going to take me 20 years to get all that back man you know uh three years look great i can’t imagine i can’t imagine what 20 is going to look like you know if i could accomplish this much in three years of recovery [ ] if i could do 20 years on drugs that could be 20 years of recovery i i i’m very intrigued on what the next 17 years have for me i saw an email speaking of the next 17 years i saw an email yesterday from dan hugh hill that had you copied on it talking about going back into a prison system and cheering some people on work i was like holy crap i said holy [ ] damn that is cool i said dan are you i told dan i said dan you got all this approved he said just come with me man they’ll give you a red bag i’m like whoa what a cool opportunity here not me and dan this this is amazing yeah this is cool me and dan on the prison yard is enemies and here we are you know coming together connecting in recovery man going back into the prison system to try to help others out
together together together this is together when when years back we would have been sticking each other man now we’re embracing each other i mean it’s amazing man it’s beautiful true recovery in your life man it is amazing i mean recovery to me i mean i’ve always known god in my life a lot of times i didn’t accept them but i’ve always known them but to have recovery it’s like finding god and him just
smothering you you know it’s an amazing feeling man i feel overwhelmed with with recovery man um my favorite my favorite uh maybe my favorite clinician in the world right now is maybe dr gabor mate and he’s just got some cutting edge stuff the way that he talks about mental health and you said earlier it’s like when you showed up at peaks you knew you were home you know and and gabor monte is famously quoted in regards to trauma as saying it’s the unalignment trauma is the unalignment of the true genuine authentic self why because it’s too painful to be that person and so tru the healing is the reconnection of the true genuine authentic self right and it just like the person sitting in front of me right now and it’s really really cool to see that and to be a part of it and to have you in my life personally and professionally just really appreciate your heart your enthusiasm your charisma you said it earlier your authenticity your willingness to be vulnerable which i think is second to none considering what you’ve walked through and you’re right we’re just scratching the surface thousands of people out there are gonna be helped by eric woods oh yeah you know it’s not gonna stop here you know i feel like i i belong in within my recovery i’ve spent 37 38 years of my life never felt like i belonged anywhere like i fit in anywhere you know like anything not even within my own family man um i’ve always figured that my life is going to end with a lifetime of imprisonment or getting shot in my back to walk through society feeling like i belong somewhere and to feel like i have all this success in my life that wasn’t took him it was earned and i never earned anything in my in my life man you know a lot of times within my life you know i i try to seek out and get a job i try to work in in construction or try to get a job with the family or this and that and always i’ve never had i ain’t never did a job i didn’t hate me
and there’s been there’s been mondays where i got up like man i don’t feel like going to work today there has never ever once been a day that i pulled up at peaks and felt like man i didn’t belong here i wasn’t glad to be here i’m excited to show up always i’ve always showed up in the best spirit man i always tell my guys good morning eric how are you doing blessings i’m blessed brother how you doing it’s always always how you doing eric i’m blessed that i don’t mean my day is good on me my day’s bad that just means since i could enjoy this day here man i’m blessed man i woke up today i’m sober god’s good and my black is in jail man let’s go let’s go oh man it’s been a blessing for me today man yeah i’m blessed man each and every day i get to spend in recovery is such a blessed day man because i spent my life my life in chaos and turmoil destruction uh trauma and drama to get to wake up blessed every day you literally smell the roses man you don’t need to have what is mine my little two bedroom apartment man my little car my bike my marriage man my life man it’s amazing i pay my own bills man i make my own way man yeah well he i got to say eric i i
we’re we are fortunate to have you too i want to say that and you are needed and you are necessary to our mission at peaks for sure of saving lives because you
what i think um what i think the heart of peaks is is people authentically being themselves and i i appreciate you coming here with lights and cameras around you uh and and sitting here and having this conversation and and bringing forward your heart um i think it’s apparent why uh the guys connect to you so well and uh look forward to talking with you and and having these experiences uh with you and and i and i want to acknowledge you for coming here despite your social anxiety and all that like this is it’s kind of an intimidating thing to come and sit here and i i appreciate your willingness to do that um any willingness to bring your heart onto the uh into the show like this i think is a tremendous gift i think to those watching at home and this is a piece of what i think we have to offer is you you get a little eric woods like you get a little like you get that heart man and uh and this is all genuine uh and and eric just gets to show up and be himself and i think it’s pretty cool yes um to touch on that a little bit to get to show up someplace just just myself um within my own family i was never able to to to do that to show up myself i mean i i i come to work and no one judges me man this this is probably the only place i’ve ever been in life where no one judges me man i still got my hat on my my dude man my shirt’s still a little baggy man i mean man i still look the same man don’t no one ever ever judges me i’m always embraced with love and respect and
peace changed my life and it showed me what true recovery is you know and to me true recovery like i said is night and day from sobriety yeah yeah thoughts on that like eric says it so well yeah um i just really appreciate you coming on appreciate your energy and i’m grateful today that we can all really focus in you know someone in group this morning was like you know i just think it’s about mental health and i think it’s always been about mental health i run around my neighborhood and i scream at everybody i said everything in this world can be solved through mental health um and i just appreciate you being a catalyst to creating a more mentally healthy world man you’re a big part of that so thank you for coming on and we’re gonna have to bring it back on again man we only got a little piece i know we’ll have to that’s all right we yeah we’ll do more plenty more pieces yeah yeah we’ll bring you all that’s a guarantee um all right well uh that that’s a wrap on this episode uh i appreciate you guys joining me um please find us subscribe on uh facebook instagram um follow peak’s recovery for a lot of chris burns tick tocks mountains mountain goats dancing running short shorts are a guarantee and they don’t judge me no judgment yeah that’s it for this episode uh have a good one

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Episode 70Tim Schurrer On The Secret Society of SuccessWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/1vxabXnufusListen NowDescriptionIn this episode, we are privileged to have a special guest, Tim Shurrer, CEO of David Novak Leadership, author of “The Secret Society of Success,” and host of the “Build a Winning Team” podcast. We dive into his book, which examines how to be successful. We often think we have to step into the spotlight or climb the ladder, but his book “The Secret Society of Success” introduces a new way to define success counter to what culture sells. And when you learn to live in this new way, you’ll start to enjoy your work and life again.

Talking Points1. What is the Spotlight Mindset? 2. Tim speaks on what it’s like to work with such successful people 3. What happens when you step outside of the spotlight 4. Finding confidence in your role 5. The Assist 6. The importance of recognition 7. Who are you here for? 8. Learn how to fall Quotes

”There is one thing I hope people do walking away from this episode, is to start to think about what success is for you.”– Tim Schurrer

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 70 Transcriptswelcome to another exciting episode of Finding Peaks Clint you know I say that all the time but today today is true we are dead serious this is very exciting pull up a chair hopefully your popcorn’s already popped because we’re bringing it to you guys today out there in the world Brandon Burns chief executive officer for Peaks recovery centers joined by co-host Clint Nicholson LPC Lac all the clinical things Chief Operating Officer for Peaks recovery centers and before I highlight uh Our Guest today I want to point back to the Kevin Miller episode that we did several weeks ago look it up in that regard Kevin and I were going back and forth trying to talk about this book it had the word success in it in that regard and we just couldn’t quite put our finger on it in that moment but I have tracked it down and we are joined today by the great author Tim Sher who wrote The Secret Society of success also a podcaster as well too who uh whose podcast is called build a winning team in that regard so we’re here today to celebrate the book the information your presence with us you gave a wonderful keynote to our leadership team before coming on here today and we’re just excited to invite you into this episode to talk to leaders out in our industry in the world in general and see if we can’t Define what success is today so welcome Tim and thanks for being here oh fun to be here hanging with you guys this is great I’m having a great time we haven’t even really even started this video yet yeah so we’re in it and you know your your book has so many incredible chapters I’ve spent a great deal of time on it uh I’ve probably been just bragging about you to your face for the last you know 24 hours now that I’ve gotten to know you in person and I’m just curious uh if we could highlight for the viewers kind of the starting point to this that the spotlight mentality what is that what does it look like um just as the general beginnings of this process yeah so you know it’s interesting if you think about the story of Apollo 11 you’ve got Neil Armstrong Buzz Aldrin but a lot of people don’t know there’s a third astronaut on that mission Michael Collins and here’s the guy he Ubers kneel and Buzz to the Moon drops them off those guys then do all the various tasks that they have to do on the moon surface well he actually stays back in the Command Module and orbits them in something like 26 times until those guys are ready to be picked up and brought back to Earth and what I love so much about Michael Collins and and how he shows up in this story is when he gets back to Earth sits down with the Press he talks about how content he was to have had one of those three seats and that’s such a different message that we are hearing because I think the world that we live in today says to be successful you have to be the one that everyone is talking about getting into the spotlight is the goal right yeah but I think that the way that we show up in in how we can be at our best may not look like defining success in the way that culture tells us that success is so is fame money and power the only ways that we can be successful in our lives and our careers and you know I’ve discovered this group of people you know titled with the book The Secret Society of success that have just shown me that you know do we have to walk on the moon to be happy are there some other ways that we can approach this in our lives and you know one of the big shifts for me and my life has been in in trying to live in this new way to to define success in the same way that these groups of people have that have been really inspiring to me the thing that I’ve had to overcome is what I call the spotlight mindset which just simply is defined as this unhealthy desire for attention and recognition and it can show up in so many different ways in our lives whether it’s through you know striving or through you know a fear of failure or whether a symptom of the spotlight mindset could be something like comparison are you constantly stacking up how you view yourself based on your success compared to other people so the spotlight mindset this thing that has us just thinking about ourselves all the time is the thing that is keeping us from achieving success at a totally different level and has us living kind of the opposite of what the secret society of success would say that success is so I’ve been on this journey to figure out okay how can I learn to live in the way the secret society and how can I learn to avoid these trappings of trying to make it all about me especially when it comes to leadership and how I show up for my team and the people that I have the opportunity to lead absolutely you know I think um that message of sort of the humble leader and sometimes can come across as like very the sort of altruistic kind of benevolent mindset that feels very unrealistic in a lot of ways but what I love about your book and sort of your approach to this is that you allot for people to be human for leaders to have what you refer to as that tension that and I think that there’s something very grounding in that because if you’re just like oh yeah you just need to like not want the spotlight and you’re going to be great at this you know it just doesn’t feel real right it feels very um yeah just it just feels very out there and I think that that that portion of this of your message is very grounding and very helpful I was just wondering if you could speak about that a little bit yeah so if there’s two sides of the spectrum here it’s kind of how we’re wired we want to be seen and valued and appreciated we want people to know that we matter and if you think about even when we’re born babies cry for what they need until they’re fed until they get what they want and what happens in our lives is that evolves a little bit but people as adults we’re kind of just screaming for the attention so we get what we want and so there’s a very human part of just survival we’re trying to take care of ourselves that is the far side of the spectrum that selfish approach to showing up but swimming Upstream and living in the way the secret society has us more focused on other people than ourselves has us focusing on our teams and the people that we have an opportunity to lead we’re focused more on them and their success more so than our success but it is so hard to get into that headspace and so I would love to be able to have said in the book or to you guys all right so here’s here’s the three-step plan can’t wait to tell you how to completely avoid this selfish way of thinking and living you’ll never suffer from this or deal with this again and I felt this pressure to write that in the book like my brain loves linear I would have loved a one two three step but I couldn’t do it because it’s not true it’s not real to our actual lives the truth is we live in the tension between these two things this aspiration to be selfless and to think of others first that is the aspiration but the reality is some days all I can muster is just getting through the day on my own thinking about myself so what do we do about that I think what we do is we just learn to identify these selfish Tendencies and try to just get a little bit better every day right right totally and I think in business a lot of leaders are looking for that Silver Bullet like what’s the one thing that’s going to just hockey stick us up yeah I was looking for the bully for the bullet points myself yeah and I did not see them we want the Silver Bullet absolutely we want the quick ease see answer but this is true in life it’s true in business there is no Silver Bullet and in fact the Silver Bullet if there is one is continuous Improvement it’s getting a little bit better every day yeah you have people talk about just get one percent better and that can compound to some pretty massive growth but I think it’s actually pretty encouraging for all of us because it’s not realistic to think that we can totally overcome it but it is realistic to think that I can show up a little bit better today than I did yesterday and if I keep doing that if I keep trying to be in a headspace where I’m thinking of others first and I I get more comfortable in that I hope that that will lead us on a much better path yeah yeah and I I love this notion of just it being in tension right because in my as I’ve shared with you in your time uh hanging out over the last 24 hours and with the you know the keynote this morning that you know the first time I read a chapter like living in the spotlight it’s like I don’t do that yeah and so we were joking about Fight Club first rule of Fight Club is we don’t talk about Fight Club you know first rule of secret society might be like careful and if your first thought is I’m never in the spotlight right yeah you know as a rule and and so it required more investigation in that regard to live with an intention to see if it’s really true for me because I don’t feel it necessarily in our office environment but then when I go to post something on LinkedIn you know the viewers out there know me well at this point uh findingpeaks and peaksrecovery.com keep sending me all your thoughts and ideas critiques uh know me at this point to to just kind of want to point out the harm at times this industry does to kind of point at the the lacunas and the pitfalls and the shortcomings of our industry and out of that I always don’t do a great job at kind of wrapping around it and I share that because you know one way I see myself in the spotlight mentality at time is I I found this new platform called LinkedIn so healthy all of my people in the industry and everything on and I’m staring at it and I’m like this is what’s wrong with the industry and hammering it on and I send it and then I stare at it and I’m like I should not have said it in that sort of way because I’m not the things that I’m posting in that regard are about me I want them to know that I’m watching and that we’re so successful over here and I’m calling you out versus like okay step back erase all those things that I said right and step into it and invite people into the discussion hey this is where our industry is really struggling and I want to invite you guys in to have a conversation because I think we’re actually doing it well enough over here to actually provide opportunity for your organization right and so out of that right you get this very powerful transition that I think you talk about in your book from uh the spotlight mentality into sort of this kind of you know service of others but before we launch to the end of your book in that regard you’ve had such incredible opportunities to work with just wonderful CEOs leaders in the world um your build a winning team podcast has some incredible guests on it as well too and so your guests your friends the people you know are literally in the spotlight of the world in a really big way yet it seems like in your experiences with them of course um they themselves are not living the spotlight mentality that they are part of the secret society of success so what’s that like to be around people who we are all like they’re in the spotlight but at the same time um they’re kind of to the side of it and what has that been like for you to kind of meet these people was it your initial expectation okay I’m gonna meet these highbrow CEOs and they’re going to shake my hand and turn the other way it sounds like your experience is much different than that people I’ve been really inspired by not everyone in the spotlight operates in a healthy space right totally you know not everybody in the spotlight lives in the way of the secret society but I’ve met a lot of people who who do and what I’ve learned is living in the way the secret society being a part of that group actually has little to do with your position on the org chart or how much visibility you have in your role or how many followers you have online being in the secret society has much more to do with how you show up and you know I’ve met some people who couldn’t be more in the spotlight and let and yet how they show up is really there to help serve you know one amazing example um this guy named Ken langone he’s one of the co-founders of the Home Depot and Home Depot’s massive success like everyone knows about the Home Depot but what I also love is if you look at how they structure their org chart they have what they call an inverted pyramid where in most companies the CEOs up at the top and you know supporting them below is the rest of the organization well it’s called the inverted pyramid because the Home Depot flips that thing on its head the CEO is at the bottom in support of the rest of the organization they see their opportunity as leaders of the company as they’re there to serve their customers they’re there to serve their employees and some beautiful things happen when you show up in that way and you know someone like Ken langone who’s been a part of that company from the very beginning you also see this way of thinking and living in you know other areas of his life he’s a billionaire and yet he uh because of this investment that he has made in in trying to help other people win help them on their way he is a chairman of NYU langone health and the decision that he had made was that everyone that goes to medical school NYU actually goes tuition free wow so they made this big announcement where he’s able to stand up in front of a group of incoming students and say as of today your tuition is free awesome wow and he said that was the first time that I truly felt Rich that he can create that opportunity for people but what I love about a guy like Ken is he could be more in Spotlight he’s a billionaire to so many people this is the aspiration they want the wealth they want the platform he’s helped launch this incredible company and the Home Depot but what do you see him doing he shows up not only in now being a part of this organization with an inverted pyramid as this model and method of leadership that they want others to see and learn from he’s also using his resources to give back to others and help other people win and help them on their own journey to go out and do good in the world you know as a medical students at NYU so I see people like that and it’s just kind of had me thinking about success in a different way sure you know maybe success isn’t the position maybe it’s not the wealth maybe it’s more how can we learn to show up in the way that Ken does in giving back to others and you know thinking of others first absolutely yeah and um you know what it’s always it’s just so special to be in this house seat and to uh know where I want to you know kind of like take this but to not like just jump ahead and just be excited in that regard and really you know pull the audience through the Brilliance of your book and what you’re providing in it as well too so we have these you know could we have the spotlight mentality kind of starting with this sort of spectrum then we recognize there’s an un there’s unhealthy features about this that can not only cause issues in our personal lives but for our organizations and teams and systems and so forth uh but it seems like there’s a better way to go about this once we step out of the spotlight mentality so what’s like what’s the starting point here right and you talk about you know the example of LeBron James in your book and um would just love for the viewers to be able to hear you know kind of what you’re seeing in these leaders and what they start doing once they step outside the spotlight and kind of what you know you bring the to the floor about LeBron James yeah so I I love that how can we get practical about this like how can we show up in a little bit different way so um yeah LeBron in 2020 he and the Lakers win the NBA finals and you think a guy like LeBron would you know want to be the guy out there scoring all the points and being the man he’s one of the greatest basketball players in NBA history surely this is how he would show up but what I love what happened in 2020 is LeBron was not the scoring leader in the NBA he wasn’t even in the top five but in 2020 he led the league in assists yeah so the way that he chose to play and then ultimately how he and his team won the championship was by him setting someone else up the score absolutely and if you look at these cultural definitions of success the message we are hearing is you need to be the scoring leader in whatever that looks like however that looks in your industry but what if success is in the assist what if actually instead of trying to be the scoring leader you spent more time thinking about how you can help other people win how you could set your teammates up to score and you do that show up in that way whether or not you ever get a scoring leader title or not that’s totally secondary he’s all about the team trying to bring his talents and his abilities uh and and bring all of that to the table but to be somebody who’s as interested in the assist as anything else I hear a story like that and I just think holy smokes I got some work to do because it’s so easy for me to think about I’m going to show you guys how good I can be yeah and um and he just kind of totally flips that model on its head I I really love that part of the book I think um that idea of being I don’t know is CEO was a really weird title sometimes and I guess a lot of times I look at myself when I read that I was like maybe I’m just a professional assistant like that’s just kind of my role it’s just the spotlight this is about as close as I get and I do it uncomfortably so um but that I it just um I don’t know in that moment it I there was like all of a sudden I felt like I had a place in as this type in this type of role which I mean I don’t know how many CEOs you’ve had on your podcast you know it’s all the CEOs usually the spotlight right and so but you always have that per there’s always somebody underneath trying to direct and coordinate and all that kind of stuff and um and I mean and I I love what I do and I there’s nothing I I think I feel very um very fulfilled in my position uh and so that moment was uh I don’t know there was some a real validation there and so I just really appreciated that yeah one of my favorite songs is uh by my friend Steve Moakler and the chorus says we all wake up in different situations with different callers for our occupations but ever since the world’s been in rotation it’s been run by Humble operations and this idea of every role us value every role has worth yeah absolutely and you know if you think about a concert we need people in the spotlight for the whole thing to work yeah there is nothing wrong with the spotlight as long as people who are in those positions are you know showing up in a healthy way not making it about them but contributing their part so there’s nothing wrong with that that person standing in the center of the stage we need them but we also need the person running the lights the person running sound the backing guitarist we need the person taking tickets when we walk in we need you know the person that’s showing people where their seats are the problem I have is when people try to say that there is only one role that matters in our aspiration should only be to go try to be the person standing on the stage and I love that you picked that up in the book because My Hope Is that more people feel that too a validation to play their role to own their part to do it with excellence and to find contentment there rather than chasing after this definition of success that maybe doesn’t feel true to them so when you write a book there’s a lot of different people that contribute to it editors being some of those people and I think a lot of people would look at an editor and say okay for you to really make something to yourself you probably need to go be an author like your name be the one on the front cover of the book but then I’ve met enough of these editors that say but I like being an expert yeah yeah you’re gonna take me out of this thing that I’m very skilled at that I love to do and pressure me to step into a role that I don’t even want and I think there’s a lot of people that resonate with this book and these ideas because they are an editor yeah absolutely and they’ve just not believed these cultural narratives that they’re not successful because I I want them to know you are successful in the exact role that you are today and not to believe the lie or the myth that they have to go try to be something else to find success and so let’s just think about success a little bit differently and show people that maybe the success that they’re looking for is exactly where they are today right now yeah and and I I want to talk a little bit more just about you know success is the assist right because you know I’ve talked about it with the viewers I was talking with you a little bit about it yesterday but from 1993 to the present day we’ve done past podcast episodes um with the president and founder of Vista research and Conquer addiction Joanna Conti they run a significant third party platform that surveys outcomes for our industry and what they identified was in the last 30 years outcomes have remained flat at about 33 12 month after a 12-month follow-up post treatment and last use in that regard so 33 over 30 years with all the science all the medicine all the things that we have and in that way I feel like I want to be the I’m gonna I’m in the spotlight in this moment in my thought bubble right like I’m gonna hold the 70 outcome in my hand one day and everybody will be like Peaks did it and that CEO is at the top of it and like I’m on this pedestal right in my head and it’s a thing I’m not gonna always talk about being vulnerable here and talking about how leaders work right in our heads and our thoughts bubbles like I want that for the organization at the same time our mission is to save lives 107 000 opioid deaths last year we just celebrated the awareness around overdose deaths on our own campus and because we’re in an industry of not selling Snickers bars but human lives you know being involved in that regard I have if I am that person that can do that as a CEO as an organization we have to give that away right because we only have 36 beds and there’s 107 000 people who needed it last year desperately right and so if there’s a cure out there or any organization identifies it um we can’t just hold that we have to support others to show them how to bring that forward to the benefit of family systems in our culture overall here in the United States uh in that regard and so you know I just think there’s such powerful in the concept of the assist it doesn’t just extend to our teams in that regard but in a business where human lives matter it extends to the other organizations so how can I support get off get out of the spotlight Brandon right and support these other organizations who maybe I might feel are a little bit behind us you know around awareness and growth and that sort of thing and catch them up to speed so that we can all collectively start improving this together and really collaborate about it because the reality of our industry you know at the end of the day is that there is so much suffering out there that we can assist for days and we would still fall short of the collective issues that are in front of us so I just wanted to share that with you and curious from your perspective how much you see the assists because I believe you mentioned in your book where one of the companies just started branding for other companies they recognized their size within the world and then they invited other companies to be listed on their site and then they just kind of gave it away from there and to just walk us through some of those experiences that you may have seen along your journey you know so I think it’s really important for us to Define what success is for us personally and for us as a company like what do we actually want and how can we Orient our decisions and and the things that we do in line with those definitions of success so The Story You’re referencing is a guy named Leela fever and you know he got quite a bit of attention when he and his company created a video called Twitter and plain English and this was in 2008 right around when Twitter and some of these other social platforms were just getting going and trying to describe for somebody who doesn’t know what Twitter is what Twitter is is like especially free all of the stuff even existing was was difficult so they created this video to just simply talk about what Twitter was Twitter ends up putting it on their website featuring this video on their website Lee just starts getting bombarded with all this demand for other companies wanting similar videos and made for them and one of their uh clients right after that was Google they wanted to help have a Google Docs described in plain English and so Lee made a video for them and more and more and more demand but Lee had a choice to make do we want to build this business and this company up in a way that has this really scaling up and perhaps doing more work than we’re comfortable doing maybe at a pace that they didn’t really want so they defined success as he and his wife running this business together and not building out this massive agency even though that’s what demand kind of was required about that moment and so they had an idea they said what if we created um what they called the common craft explainer Network so their company was called common craft and so they created this network and so they made an opportunity available for some of their competitors people who they knew they could refer business to they said for 750 a month we’ll list your company’s information on our website so that when these companies come to us maybe with work that we’re not able to deliver on we can just funnel those leads to you well they had nine companies paying 750 a month if you do the math that’s 81 000 that they made that year by choosing to stay small and stay true to their own definition of success and to not look at all their competitors as competitors but this hey there’s enough here for all of us yeah yeah absolutely and it’s so easy for us to look at competition and see it as us against you um but I love how they looked at it as more this abundance mindset yeah and how can we collectively win and you know ultimately the industry at large grew because of their willingness to just be more open-handed with the whole thing yeah and I think there’s an opportunity for all of us to um maybe be a little bit more like that yeah rather than be so focused on us how can we you know to find success for ourselves and then also in that maybe you create opportunities for people who maybe you had seen as competitors before that yeah yeah absolutely it’s it’s one of those uh you know I think when we talk about like the tension like the human tendency and I love the baby analogy too like you’re crying to you know meet your needs but things haven’t significantly changed from you know being a baby we want those needs met so it feels like counter-intuitive to support the competition right in that regard it feels like a thing to just reject and go about it on your own uh and I think in those sort of ways uh for me in particular it has led to a spotlight mentality we’re just going to do it better and do it by ourselves and I’m just going to dismiss all the noise and everything over here on the side and now that we’ve arrived it’s sort of the size of our organization I just recognize how even though it’s been healthy for us personally as an organization uh and the individuals within it it has caused harm in the environment of like our industry and um has made you know marketers at time even just fearful to even like hey Brandon you know can I come over and tour your facility or drop off a box of creatures or whatever the case is you know that intensity you know as I reflect on it hasn’t always led to um or what initially felt positive hasn’t always turned out to be the positive way to go about it in that regard so for me just sharing with you know the leaders about there how you know I’ve walked within this tension and lived in the spotlight mentality and it took some reflection to be honest about that as an approach but the power that comes from it and the opportunity to assist and to not just be a leader for organization but to be a leader for this industry in that way um just feels like I’m in this new space now you know kind of after taking some of the guidance and Direction out of your text and just wanted to you know share that with you as well too and from the viewers this book’s got a lot of incredible information going on in it in it and it’s worth your time and reflection as you go through it and so kind of moving through it as you know as you set it up within this you know within your chapters we arrive at these uh chapters about recognition and I don’t want to name drop too much because you have all the names to drop on your end you know David Novak but listening to the podcast episode on your build a winning team platform I believe it’s episode one for uh that as well too and you know the whole concepts of you know recognizing through Rubber Chickens and all that sort of stuff and it’s also just I mean you know David himself is just an awesome speaker he’s inviting and he’s connecting I was fully in you know braced in the the podcast episodes also shared on the audible version of your book but it’s fascinating that he took this concept of recognition into the organization and made it the thing and then the success followed from that you know in that regard and um just would love for you to share kind of you know maybe your friendship you know with David what you’ve come to learn from David and how much he inspired you know I believe it’s chapter five of recognition within your text yeah so David grew young Brands when he was the CEO and young Brands is the parent Corporation for KFC Taco Bell and Pizza Hut and you know in David’s tenure he grew the business from 4 billion to 32 billion dollars and and you know a lot of people would look at that they’re like how did you do that well how they did it was through creating this culture of recognition you know David really wanted recognition to be the thing that they were known for the number one thing and behavior that they wanted to drive in the business and a lot of people would hear about this idea of recognition and maybe telling you this as like advice to grow your business yeah and be like come on you know recognitions the soft fluffy stuff but you know David said it’s it’s the soft stuff that drives the hard results and so David made it a a personal mission of his as the leader in the company if this is the behavior that he wanted to see he knew he casts a shadow as a leader and he had to go first he had to model for everyone else what this looks like and so he would call people out for you know doing good things you know doing the kinds of behaviors in the company that he felt really would would drive and move the company forward and so he had what he called a personal recognition award so he’d give somebody a bit of personal recognition and he’d say hey I want to actually take a picture with you I’m gonna send you a copy of this picture as well um but I’m going to take another copy of it and put it on the wall all in my office because when people walk into the CEO’s office at Young Brands I want them to see your picture so that they can see you’re the kind of person who’s really making stuff happen around here so he started putting his pictures on his walls you know framed all around and quickly ran out of space on the wall so we started to put them on the ceiling and what I love so much about this is recognition really was the thing that made the company run and you know this kind of thing is so possible for all of us to do to just simply call out the good that we see in our team members and um we actually used to when I was leading the company at story brand we would just add a little bit at the end of a meeting that we just call shout outs we’d want to to shout out call out the things happening behind the scenes that may have otherwise gone unnoticed absolutely unrecognized and we just wanted to take a couple minutes and just call out some of those things the reality for all of us is we want to to feel seen and valued and appreciated and by simply calling out some of that work that we see as Leaders can make a pretty massive difference in in the people that we have the opportunity to lead and so what I love about what David has done is after he left young Brands he wanted to take these Leadership Lessons that he’d learned about recognition about you know effective ways of building teams and of growing a business to 32 billion leading a million and a half employees and so he created a non-profit yeah it just it’s absurd one and a half million employees yeah that’s that’s amazing yeah it really is and so he created a non-profit called David Novak leadership and the whole idea the whole mission in David Novak leadership is he wants to make the world a better place by developing better leaders and this summer he actually said hey would you consider being CEO of David Novak leadership and you know you’ll still I still want you to have freedom to like write and speak and I immediately was like of course I don’t even know what this looks like that I’m in and um so now we’re trying to help everyone from elementary school students to professionals learn what it looks like to um recognize others to show up and think you know not me but we and yeah you know Coca-Cola they sell the kids because if they can get a kid liking Coke as a kid they’re going to be Coke buyers for life and I want to do the same thing in leadership right and in teaching people these ways of showing up and living if we can teach a kid that it’s important to think of others first if we can teach a a high schooler that success looks like helping someone else win if we can teach them this at these early ages when they are in college and they have an internship when they step into their first job as a professional they then become leaders if we have been teaching them these things along the way way they then are going to lead in this way and start to build teams and Company cultures that are showing up like that too imagine what the world could look like if more people showed up absolutely wanting to help other people win to finding success a little bit differently recognizing others valuing every person’s contribution I mean I get pumped up about what the world should look like 20 years from now if we invest in you know some of the youngest of people like it couldn’t be more impactful and more important yeah I love the energy behind that the literally pouring off of you yeah so I mean hey how can you not be excited about this as like a viewer of this episode and certainly I’m you know continuing to be excited about it and just uh you know reading your book I need to know you the podcast and all the energy around it it’s it’s just a beautiful platform and I you know it has me thinking a little bit about this the cultural language of like the great resignation right that we experienced on the back side of you know the pandemic turned endemic right and a lot of just frustrated company cultures and people looking for different opportunities you know one thing comes to mind we have a very small time currency in this world we’re born and then you know I hate to say we die one day right and regardless of what’s on the other side of this life experience you know in that regard we spent a great deal of our time in work environments 40 hours a week 60 hours a week 80 hours a week you know as a contribution in that regard and I think about it through the lens of like how do I Inspire the person not to just come here to collect the paycheck but to be like I’m getting out of bed today I’m gonna go save some damn lives at Peaks recovery centers and be you know just pumped on that as a notion and you know for us at Peaks we’ve been so fortunate not to like experience that it was almost like background noise or we almost had a sensitivity to it like it’s coming yeah our you know everybody’s about to bounce but at the same time we were nurturing that cultural aspect side of things and what if as you’re saying the opportunity here in the world for change and you know removal of division that seems to take place in the social medias and all this stuff has to do with empowering leaders to do better within their organizations and creating that intrinsic invitation to come to work because you just can’t picture yourself being anywhere else for eight hours a day and I think books like the secret society of success and in particular your book greatly highlight the value proposition of that and just recognizing people right and not just recognizing like Clinton you’re a good person right but Clinton you are oh yeah thank you I appreciate that yeah I tell people that all the time he tells them all the time but also to go into work into you know and just to recognize and I I see like I have a lot of energy and I say a lot of things before I go into leadership clinical say Hey you know 15 minutes before like what are you going to say in there you know let’s translate that right now for the team and like let’s make sure we get it correct but also I have a lot of energy and thoughts and ideas and I throw it at him right and he has this beautiful way of translating this into company culture in a way they can hear it in a way that I would have erupted the whole culture you know by Brute Force bringing that information in and so the development of leaders and uh the directionality about that uh I just want to recognize you know with the viewers that I think that’s a special thing and I think it’s a really valuable thing that you’ve kind of discovered as uh what we’ve been calling golden nuggets within text that exist within the book that you’ve written yeah so you know the I the reality is what our team members want today is very different from what they wanted two years ago yeah and the greatest thing that we can do is to show up and hear them people want to feel seen and heard and valued and if they don’t feel that they’re gonna go somewhere else there is an environment now that is so much more acceptable to go bounce into a new job because they want things in a culture that maybe didn’t matter as much to them or maybe they weren’t confident enough to make the step or to take that leap unless they were experiencing them in their in their role so it is more important now than ever for people to feel recognized and valued for them to feel honored in their contribution so I think there’s some really beautiful things kit that can happen at the intersection of like the employees desires their skill sets what they want and what the company need is when those things can line up I think some really beautiful things can happen so I’m constantly asking our team what do you want yeah you know what what are the things that you’re thinking about today two years from now what are the things that you value and how can men we be looking for opportunities to allow you to flex or whatever within the context of what the business need is and when we can do that when we can not be so rigid in our own leadership or on our way of wanting to do things that we’re not going to accommodate our team members how can we accommodate as long as it meets in line with what the business need is and there’s sometimes when team members just need to go somewhere else and that’s okay yeah that’s fine you know if our goal is to help others win sometimes the greatest thing that we can do is identify that maybe this company is not the place for you anymore maybe there’s some other opportunity for you over here and that’s okay if my intention is to help somebody else when I have to be willing to also champion in them into a new opportunity if that’s what’s best but I also hope that people stay with me and our company as long as possible right where it makes sense and so what I think is most important in all of this is that we are all getting more and more clear about what success is we’re starting to talk about or having conversations we’re allowing our team members to know that they are heard absolutely and we’re creating space for that and so I think if you do that as a leader you show up you create that safe environment I think people are going to stick around yeah you know totally yeah and I um you know uh it was it’s kind of intentional right in my brain here my thought bubble kind of guiding through the episode here we uh uh it’s earlier in the book but this question for leaders and how we show up is something now that I’m asking myself each and every day after reading your book kind of slapping the doors I go in like who am I here for and I think you know of the many stories that you share within your book The thistle farm story has a powerful message of who am I here for and how that operates within that organization station so I don’t want to steal the Limelight of that that story but I was hopeful for the viewers that you could connect the thistle Farm stories with that who am I here for and share some of the power and that Vision that’s being carried out through this incredible not-for-profit company yeah yeah so I I was at this event in Atlanta and I heard this guy Andy Stanley speak he’s an amazing Communicator amazing leader and you know he says if we really want to find purpose in our careers the question we need to ask is this who am I here for and what I love about that question is it allows us to show up with all of our talents and our abilities and our passions but it has Us in this head space where we’re bringing all of that in service of someone else who am I here for and that could be really challenging as a leader to say that some days because I’m sure you guys have these where your inboxes just never ending you can’t keep up with email your calendars are jam-packed you’ve got text messages and phone calls and fires to put out on those days you just want to like put your head down put your blinders on just get your stuff done but it’s on those days that I I really just need that who am I here for reminder and so when I I got back from this event hearing Andy Stanley speak I created this eight and a half by eleven sheet of paper and up at the top and real big bold letters I wrote that who am I here for and below it I put the pictures and the names of all of my team members and their families because on those really busy days when I wanted to think only about myself I needed a reminder that said that the reason why I’m showing up is for these people absolutely and for the customers that we have the opportunity to serve yeah and there’s something about that question that just gets out of that gets us out of this selfish mentality yeah and that concept is so powerful that there are people who have been living this way whether or not they knew they were living this way it was almost subconscious and one of these people that lives this way is Becca Stevens and in in 1997 she created a home to help five women get off the streets from lives of prostitution drug addiction some of them and you know had experience trafficking and she wanted to help them learn to recover from you know the trauma and you know what I love about thistle Farms is you know you hear about a prostitute or someone like that and or you see someone on the streets and and you know it’s so easy for us to be judgmental and be like well you surely did something like what did you do because you deserve to be here right I think if we’re honest we’ve probably felt that at times but what I love about the thistle Farms approach is they have this two-year recovery program now that they help women get off the streets and and recover and they don’t ask what did you do right it’s more like what happened to you yeah it’s this empathy of understanding there are stories and systems and things that helped contribute to these women getting here absolutely and so Becca just has this heart and this passion for giving people a second chance at life and for so many of these women in their recovery them being a part of this free program that thistle Farm she says for a lot of these women this is their first chance at life and um so there’s this one woman that I met in this program her name’s Jennifer and she’s incredible she’s got all the joy and energy if she was in here in this room we’d all be smiling and laughing and you know one time I asked Jennifer I said you know hey where would you be without Becca Stevens’s influence in your life you know so Becca has this goal of just helping five women get off the streets I mean there’s no dream of creating a social Enterprise or anything she just wanted to help five women get off the streets and recover and um Jennifer now several years later is a part of this program and and so I asked her you know where would you be without Becca and you know she didn’t delay she didn’t hesitate at all she just said I’d be dead without Becca I’d be dead and the approach that Becca has been operating with since 1997. now this program has celebrated 25 years focusing on one life at a time yeah and it’s so easy for us running businesses to have aspirations to build big companies build big teams really make an impact in the world and it’s almost as though we’re not successful we’re not somebody truly worth you know aspiring to be unless we have this massive stage this massive platform impacting hundreds or thousands or millions of lives but Becca has shown up in a very different way she’s shown up with one life at a time letting that be enough letting that be how we define success and so I think for so many of us we may not have a big platform we may not have a big stage we may not have a big company but I’m sure there’s one person in our like immediate group immediate circle that actually could use a little bit of help absolutely why um it’s like who am I here for when we can think of maybe the colleague that needs us to just check in with them and see how they’re doing because maybe they’re dealing with you know some pretty hard stuff I think if we can be leaders Who start to measure our impact and our value as focusing on one life at a time if we can be leaders who think about serving and helping others if we can be leaders who think less of ourselves and and less about our journey and our climbs to the top or how much money we’re making I think if we focus more on the people around us I just feel like that’s a much better approach yeah to uh to actually being successful by definition and and how the secret society would would look at it yeah absolutely you know success right is one life at a time and I think that’s just such a powerful message for the viewers out there not only because of the connective tissues to the industry we work in and the things we do at you know Peaks recover each and every day but also because when your focal point becomes one person at a time the teams the systems the you know wealth of the not-for-profit organization all that stuff follows correctly but only at the pace of one person at a time so it’s not distracting it’s centered it’s directional and so it has all these beautiful operating features and you know it feels like in you know we we don’t have all the time in the world to Cascade all the stories and you know but the Tom shoes stories and all of these sort of you know interactions that are taking place when they when they put forward uh success is these sort of things within their organization and made it the thing versus all these other things everything else grew just naturally and beautifully in the background uh so I appreciate you bringing that story forward and sharing that again too just excellent examples of things to read as we roll through the book and um you know kind of tailing out here towards the end of the episode you know one more powerful story you know comes from uh not only your uh build a winning team podcast uh episode with uh Scott Hamilton a famous figure skater Olympic uh gold medalist and so forth and he just such a powerful figure right so many challenges within his life that he’s gone through and just to continue to smile and shine and show up for other people and the way he redefines you know negativity in his life is just information and those sorts of things um powerful stuff in addition to that walk us through uh your guys’s conversation and what it means to learn how to fall yeah so you know you’ve got a guy Scott Hamilton he’s had a crazy amount of success and yet just as publicly he said so many you know trap challenges in his life cancer three brain tumors and as I’ve talked to him about all this he he’s he talks about these things as though it’s a blessing yeah and and he’s being genuine he’s like Tim this is what made everything possible and for so many people as they think about having a successful life and career I think there’s this idea that maybe we can get through that without any major challenges or setbacks and um that’s just not at all what Scott’s story has shown me and you know what I’ve learned from Scott is like success looks like embracing challenges and learning from failure and you know exactly like you had said one of the big lessons he taught me is what if we started to look at failure as what it is just information what if failure was 100 information because as Scott has learned to become an elite athlete he knows even in his gold medal run he fell yeah yeah

right so failing in life falling in life is a guarantee and some people come to the Scott Hamilton skating Academy in Nashville wanting to learn to do what he’s done and so they’re probably surprised when the first thing that they learn first thing that Scott wants to teach them is how to fall because they’re going to fall so what if we started to look at success look at our lives more like Scott does to look at our challenges and our failures and our setbacks as information and learn to learn from them I I just feel like we’re going to be more true about what actual life looks like rather than living in this Fantasy Land which is okay I should be hoping for no problem no trouble and if I experience it something’s wrong it’s like actually this is just you being a human so let’s just acknowledge that and move forward and so that idea of what success is learning from challenges and embracing them I think is a huge thing that has helped me in my life because of what Scott’s taught me yeah I love that so much I mean in our organization there’s there’s so much energy there could be a crisis we got to manage the milieu we got to support the teams and all of these folks within the with each within each and every day you know and what we do as an opportunity and uh to sort of learn how to fall within that and sort of embrace it it’s just such a beautiful message and you know me I’ve been saying I don’t live at the level of hyperbole I I believe it’s a beautiful message uh to learn how to fall at the end of the day um because it’s guaranteed but it feels like at least up until you know reading your book or you know becoming the professional that I have it’s been a feature of avoidance how do we avoid falling I’m gonna put everything I can in front of me to ensure this never happens again right and that’s so stressful to approach it in that sort of way to create all those blockades in a way instead of like you know like let’s bring the bring the failure in here let’s bring the falling in and let’s just invite it right in and move through it together right yeah yeah so if we are just trying to avoid failure are we actually being ambitious enough because I think for so many of us in our businesses we want to set goals that we know we can attain because we don’t want to fail and so we limit our own potential because we hold ourselves back from going after a bigger Vision maybe than we even believe possible but sometimes if we’re more comfortable with failing we’re more comfortable chasing after bigger ideas right and what I love about the work that you all do and if we are in it to help other people these Big Dreams and these big Visions are actually to make an impact on more people to help more people win and so get comfortable failing because we’re going to yeah and let’s not let that fear of failure hold us back from making the kind of impact that is possible for all of us in our lives I just wholeheartedly love that I know so many leaders in our industry because of the challenges we experience with in our industry where fear is pervasive and it gets in the way of things all the way the financials and if that falls then this Falls and you know just so for the leaders out there certainly encourage you know the reading of the book but to fully Embrace I think this concept not just within our industry but all Industries in that regard and um you know being at the 12th hour of this episode now uh just wonderful to have you and before I take it out as well too um I could certainly describe what I think is the culminating feature here but I think everybody should be getting this audible book not only because you narrated it so brilliantly you get to hear his smiles and his cheers and his narration all throughout the audible it’s brilliant you also get the you know the build winning team several episodes of those podcasts within it as well too um so without me telling the viewers what I think they should take away from the book when they finish the book um when or when they get to the end of the book what are you hopeful that they’ll receive as the final message the ultimate stamp on why you wrote it in the first place yeah on my podcast uh every episode I ask the guests all right finish the sentence for me success is and it’s interesting to hear what people say people I’m inspired by none of them have said fame money power they never said that yeah if I were to answer that question and what I hope people walk away from learning in this book is success is helping others win that to me is that you know the heart of it that the foundation the the the through line from all these people that I’ve been inspired by in the secret society and if there’s been a North star for me there’s this quote that I really love by Albert Schweitzer and kind of leave you all with this so you know he says I don’t know what your destiny will be some of you will perhaps occupy remarkable positions some are some of you will perhaps you know become famous by your pens or as artists but I know one thing the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who have sought and found how to serve and I think that’s it right like if we can be people who show up wanting to serve help others win help others be at their best I feel like we do that I think the rest is going to take care of itself yeah I love that the tension right of existing between the service of others and the spotlight mentality the spotlight is this pervasive thing and this is the hopeful thing and I think if we find ourselves as leaders in this world within your own organizations living within this tension and being truthful about it I think beautiful things come and I think that’s what you’ve shared with us in your book so well written uh so grateful to have you on this podcast before I take the readers out I’m gonna do a little plug of your own podcast projects things you’ve got going on that you want to remind the the viewers to check out on the side here so I do have that podcast build a winning team there’s 20 episodes of some of my favorite people yeah I feel like I’m always walking away from those episodes inspired um but yeah I mean the the fact that I got to read the audiobook is so fun and I’ve been surprised I’ve sold more audio books Than Physical books yeah which is crazy yeah but I just I love being able to kind of put that emotion and feeling into it um and so you know I I just I love there is one thing that I hope people do walking away from this episode whether or not they buy the book is to just start to think about what success is for you and to have a conversation whether it’s with your leadership team or whether it’s with your family what is success and how maybe can we think about this a little differently in a way that has us living differently because so many people they’ve not taken the time to get clear about what that definition is and so they just subconsciously are living in a lot in in alignment with these definitions that have just been handed to them from other people but we got to get clear about what success is for us and start to live in that way so that is the thing that I hope people walk away from this conversation thinking about absolutely well you have you have our attention at yes Recovery Center certainly uh we’re so grateful for you to be speaking with our team for all the folks out there you know do your staff your leadership teams that favor the benefit invite this gentleman on he’s got so many great things to say such a positive uh energy that um you know it’s just it’s just a just a powerful sort of wake you kind of leave behind and it’s worth embracing and so also check out his book of course the secret society of success I’ve read it so many times uh in a in over and over and over again it just continues to you know feed my my soul and my leadership and my value system that I try to bring to Peaks each and every day continue to check out his podcast all those things and for uh everybody out there thanks again for joining us uh finding Peaks at peaksrecovery.com let us know your thoughts ideas next episodes around next episodes and so forth also check us out on the socials the Facebook the twitters the tick tocks all the things right that exist out there today in that regard thank you all so much for sticking through this with us and Joanie and Tim Sher here today until next time everybody foreign

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Episode 69The Importance of Work-Life BalanceWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/HAToOraYDDgListen NowDescriptionWhat does your work-life balance look like for yourself? In this episode, we dive into a unique conversation about the importance of refining your work-life balance, or for better words, work and wellness balance. We touch on the barriers and opportunities behavioral health professionals experience while finding that balance in walking with those who struggle with mental health and substance use disorders.

Talking Points1. Finding the work life balance in Peaks Recovery Centers 2. Barriers that professionals can run into with not finding that balance 3. Sprint vs. marathon 4. Minor course corrections 5. What if work is the core value? Quotes

”In this company, and in this field, we have to rely on eachother for support. Mental health is hard, it is difficult to walk with others pain with them, and to walk with them in those seasons, and then give them back what’s remaining when your done walking with them to be able to take care of yourself.”– Rebecca Axton

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 69 Transcriptshey everybody and welcome to another amazing episode of finding peaks yours truly host chris burns president and founder my co-host jason friesma our chief clinical officer and our clinical supervisor i have been trying to get rebecca on but because of my poor planning i haven’t been able to but we had this date locked in for the last month we have rebecca axton our clinical supervisor as well as licensed professional counselor welcome to the show rebecca thank you thank you so much yeah i’ve been looking forward to this actually a little nervous but i’ve been looking forward to nice i was actually i got as i was walking in here today um i got a new heart rate monitor that i was trying to set up before i came over here and i was interested to see if i would wear that throughout the show where my heart rate would go up and down it would really create some honesty huh okay you’ll have to report back so next show i’m going to wear my polar heart rate monitor just to see where things are at but i had the opportunity this morning a really cool opportunity um rebecca sat in my circle um which was a new thing today she’s sat in before but it hasn’t been in a while and i was talking to some some professionals that we haven’t care we tend to have a kind of a heavy concentration of mature adults and professionals with us right now and just talking about work-life balance and how difficult of a topic that is to address to adhere to to be clear with and i was checking in with some clients and i had the opportunity to check in with rebecca afterwards and it was just perfect timing because we’re doing the show today and she is our clinical supervisor and at the end of my circle group i told a story of about two and a half years ago and then two and a half years ago i had the opportunity about a little over two and a half years ago i had the opportunity to start to engage in my mental health care really in a more intentional way than i had in my recovery and it had dawned on me throughout that work and really in the infancy stages of that work um that my work life balance was really off and i was spending far more time active and involved in work processes answering emails whether it was thanks just have a good day whatever it might be then i was actually spending time working on myself and more intentionally spending time with my family and so um had a great conversation today and i went into that leadership meeting and i said and i was so scared when i went in there i thought everybody was gonna boo me out of the room and my counselor and i had worked on this boundary because i divided to find some values that were really important to me that i was willing to protect so i went into leadership and i said hey um you know you guys can’t call me after five unless it’s an emergent issue and on the weekends my phone is off and unless it’s an emergent issue emergencies only and i was just like kind of held my head down had a little bit of shame come up and maybe jason was one of the first ones but they could all see it clearly there was 10 to 15 professionals that were far more educated um far more

having longer lasting work histories have been through a lot more and it saw it very clearly in that moment that my work-life balance was off and i felt really seen on that day and i also was talking with rebecca about another thing and we’ll check in on this is one of the greatest compliments i get when i’m client facing when i have the opportunity to sit with clients men and women and have smoothies or coffee is they always stop me and they say chris differently than any place i’ve ever been your team loves to work here they love what they do they love the vision you can tell they’re behind this 100 and that means the world they’re present for this opportunity and so um i wanted to start with those first two things and maybe talk to rebecca a little bit about what she does in supervision to get peaks to a place where we receive compliments like that it’s not an easy task and a lot of times in small business as you grow that can get off center sometimes and how do you keep that in the forefront as you sit with ccas clinicians what have you to keep that work life balance in focus yeah thank you chris you know one of the core values of peak which is really one of those things that draws people into peaks is that we have this work-life balance right we we promote wellness from within um and for ourselves and what that looks like so this this statement that we have to have this value of work in and wellness as as a separate thing so to be able to check out of work and check into wellness or yourself and wellness for for each of us looks a little bit different but it could be spending time with your family right re-engaging with your spouse or your kids and not like continually checking uh in on work because every time you do that you’re taking away from your wellness and your family or anything else that you might doing hiking biking running being with your friends because that’s also another important part of your wellness and sacrificing all of your life which is really why we work is to have a life and to have family and engagement for work i mean work is really important and we as an employee myself i love checking in and working with this company because of the values because of what we do the the the immense pleasure that i get from working with clients and staff is incredible it gives me a sense of fulfillment but i also have to have a time when i can check out and that’s just as important yeah what do you find is maybe some of the barriers for maybe young professionals and even seasoned professionals you know i’ve had obviously i just shared an experience of where i kind of walked blindly and kind of had my blinders on and my armor on and just kind of square pay ground whole step but what are some of the barriers that you see for professionals in creating that work-life balance and to really see its value i think a barrier is fear fear that i’m not good enough fear that if i don’t check all in a hundred percent of the time that i’m going to miss something or i’m going to be fired um and i think that’s what really keeps people in that space is fear sure i think it’s a little bit of an outcropping too of our teams and our entire team really cares about one another and we never want to leave anybody in the lurch and it’s certainly one of our core values one team one shift and i think it can be uh that can uh inadvertently bleed into like well i just i gotta make sure everybody’s supported all the time right yeah absolutely yeah and it can be really difficult too and and i was talking with rebecca before the show before you came in and some of these leadership positions you know i can remember being a professional and getting promoted wow how good that feels and how much you want to show up and how much you want to you know share that blood sweat and tears and you just want to be there um only to find out that work-life balance is so important and so it’s tough too professionally when you get to some of these positions clinical supervisor chief clinical officer and we work our whole careers to get to these spots and to be clear with what our values are and to into engaging that on a daily basis is it’s got to be tough it’s got to be really really difficult yeah and working 24 7 it’s just not sustainable because if you can’t take care of yourself and find some time to carve out for you for rest for self-care you are then not authentically showing up anywhere and it’s so important in this job to be able to check in and say i am totally here for you especially when we’re working with people’s mental health yeah yeah in that ability to guide clients into kind of this quality of life in this mental health care and this mental wellness and i believe at least in my experience and i’m sure your roles as well is like clients are looking far more than they’re listening at times you know actions often speak louder than words and you know i’m called to a time um when i was just a house manager you know years ago and i was filling in for the residential supervisor and i was in a clinical meeting and they were interviewing a new clinical director and i knew nothing about what was going on but the person that they were interviewing didn’t smile once it looked like she hadn’t taken a day off in 10 years she looked unhappy unkept she was really passionate about the work she was doing she was very knowledgeable very educated but i remember the hr person in the facility said hey what do you think and i said i just she couldn’t lead me i just i want to be inspired and i think a lot of that is showing um others how to do that and so i want to turn it over to you jason in your role which is so important something you’ve engaged in over the last year is that physical side of things and i think that really speaks volumes and leadership and just taking care of yourself holistically what is what is it like to be in that position and to continue to engage not only in work-life balance but making sure that i can be inspirational with others because it is so much about being a bright light yeah yeah i and and to be clear i’m really not perfect at this none of us

a lot and i’m probably not the most inspirational human on the planet but um you know something i was thinking about as you guys were talking um is you know i have been running a lot more in the last six or eight months and and i do owe some of that a lot of that to you chris too of like jump starting that but um i have an app uh you know the nike run club app and i listened to a coach on that app and and he talks about like your one mile pace so like how fast you can run for one mile and then like your half marathon pace and your marathon pace and those are way slower and and i try to apply that to like work like we’re in a long we’re in a marathon uh to work and so that does require not you can’t sprint for a marathon i don’t care how good a shape you’re in uh you have to be able to feel like i could be running faster but i actually need to not run faster and and that that can be hard for me if i’m going to be honest with you because like i’m i’m pretty driven i’m pretty like i i kind of like to be the first in last out type guy um and first back in if you know if there’s a crisis yeah i know i know and like i i and i value that part um but i also know that like i do need to be careful with that because it is tiring to be honest with you and and so learning how to scale back and learning how sometimes to go home at an earlier time is a process and to your point chris because you know like walking into like a clinical meeting or whatever and like having the energy and the vision to to cast a vision and to say this is where we’re headed or this is where we’re struggling and here’s here’s some solution or give me solutions like it takes some energy and it can’t that can’t come if my tank is empty uh that’s a problem yeah but what i really love about you in your leadership position you do like you bridge this gap very well and you run that sprint in in moments that are needed there are moments where you need it for sure we all need it like i’ve been in a in a season right now where i’ve had to run a sprint to bridge a gap right and it’s like okay i need to slow down now but but the way you bring your honesty and your vulnerability to your staff in those moments like okay so i’ve been running this this marathon here and and now it’s time for me to just slow down a little bit and experience what your team what you’ve done so and let your team take over right that’s been the huge part yeah he’s learning how to trust right uh others but what i figured out is that trust actually is empowerment it’s weird yeah very much so empowerment yeah it’s great to hear it from you know the corporate side coming down is this thing it’s like yes we all have moments where we have to give it our all and then we need to rest we need to recuperate how are you leaning into that will help other people below you not to feel that fear like if i stop i’m gonna get fired or if i stop i’m gonna you know fall behind because we have this team mentality which is really great in this company and everybody really leans into that you don’t get this everywhere because most of the time in corporate world everyone’s out for themselves but in this in this company in this in this field we have to rely on each other for support mental health is hard yeah it’s a strength it is it is difficult to carry others pain for them and with them and to walk with them in those seasons and then give them back what’s remaining when you’re done walking with them to be able to take care of yourself yeah absolutely and it’s bringing up kind of another point that we kind of touched on a little bit this morning that i think is just it’s so simple but it’s just it’s very loud and it’s very bright and i’ll give this one to coach juan he always says it to me but when we have good work-life balance and we’re good and well mentally attuned and engaged in our wellness we’re able to make slight course corrections right and so we’re just kind of these slight course corrections which don’t really hurt aren’t intense aren’t jarring um you know but with my personal experience when i get off to the left too far i have to make a big intense correction which is really jarring to my nervous system my routine the people that are close to me the people that i love the vulnerable people that i get to sit with you know you name it so making those slight course corrections which i know is a lot about clinical supervision is just these little opportunities for progress as we kind of touched on before the show as well is how do you get to that point with clinical team members to make slight course corrections and continue to be empowered throughout the process

mindfully

to be able to sit sit with people and just kind of witness what they’re going through and using not only past experience for yourself but just hearing what they’re having to say and and noticing in those moments where their tender spots are to help them kind of course correct like maybe you’re too invested in this area and how can we place some boundaries and kind of reel it back a little bit and just be more aware of what’s going on around us not not trying to fix people but to guide them right because can you fix another person no they have to really kind of come to this awareness of what they need most people have the answer that they already need they just are so invested in all of their stuff that they can’t see the answer yeah like that i can’t see myself in the forest because there’s too many trees but coming in outside i can look kind of over the trees and say there you are yeah so let’s just kind of move things out a little bit take a left small course correction to the left or to the right yeah yeah my i have a one of my college buddies is a golf coach at a local high school here and like when i’ve golfed with him um usually about the i figure this out in the first or second hole one of the times i play with him i’m like listen correct one thing uh of mine but like if you’re telling about my stance and my grip and my backswing and my left arm and like i’ll lose it all like it’s too much to try to work on at once like pick one thing and then i can work on that and i i kind of apply that in supervision settings right like some people may have a few things to correct but like if we can find a find one thing like let’s just work on this let’s work on attunement with your clients so let’s work on little aspects um and then let that change set in and then find the next thing to work on i think that’s how that’s how i kind of approach that and that’s one thing with all of my supervisees that the last question i ask them before we leave so so what is the one thing that you’re going to work on this week yeah that’s a great question so that they can really just like take all of this but focus on the one thing to correct so they don’t lose at all yeah that’s really great too and then you follow back a couple weeks and it’s like we’re out with this you know have an opportunity for growth over here everything’s going phenomenally yeah that’s really nice man i would love to be supervised by you guys i’ve been really trauma informed

but you know to your point earlier rebecca we don’t we don’t know what people’s work experience either yeah and i was told years ago pm melody said it first like you know anything that gets me elevated above a five has to do with the past and some people most people in general come from work situations that are really intensified and we’re just coming off the backs of you know kind of machiavellian culture and leadership where it’s just kind of top-down approach and so a lot of people have trauma in the workplace and i think that’s something that ural’s clinical team does so well is you create safety and then you have this kind of vulnerable discussion and you’re clear with each other but one of the things i was thinking about when we were talking about this was what if somebody’s value system is work have you ever had that oh definitely right and so do you do you throw them in or do you how do you take care of that person in that exchange uh what are you avoiding like that uh curiosity that’s actually what i ask yeah like what what is it and and again because is it a value system or is it its own kind of response to other things in life like that that’s where i would start with your question have you seen it be a value system for somebody work definitely yeah because that’s they come in that is their identity and i think you know not to stereotype but men uh tend to gravitate towards that area more readily than women do women tend to focus on family right their kids that kind of thing where men is like i am what i do yeah so they identify with that that becomes their core value if i don’t have work then who am i and so we you know work on that clinically speaking with individuals it’s like so as they retire as they move into family life so you’ve you’ve spent your life building this this work value system and now you want a family right you met somebody and you’re having children and how do you divide your time with that and so you can stay in relationship because if you stay focused on only work you’re not going to be in your family for very long sure right you were talking about your wife saying hey yeah right for sure i i need some of you as well and so and then maybe they’re retiring and then it’s like well who am i that’s a big point of struggle who am i now that i retire what do i do do i just sit home and die

trying to help help people understand that you are more valuable than just what you do for a living right there is more essence of you yeah people are going to watch this episode and just be like i just need some of that in my life i hope so yeah yeah yeah you know i i just i think it’s something that you know we made a core value for a reason and really doesn’t get talked about and celebrated enough um and i was telling rebecca before the show at least it’s my opinion and i’ll stick with that i’m sure jason’s got a similar opinion and those that are close to me but production is up time spent is down for me and i think people can really look at that for what it is but i think each person can create in their ecosystem in their professional ecosystem and their family ecosystem and their recovery ecosystem some balance and i think it’s a great topic to have especially when we’re talking about mental health and we’ve learned that this whole process that we’re wrapped around is all about becoming a more mentally healthy human yeah you know yeah absolutely and i love working here because there is that we show up for the clients but if we can’t show up for ourselves and we tell this to our clients all the time if we can’t show up for ourselves and really understand you know what we need and we just focus and be intense all the time around one thing we cannot show up for the clients and so when i love that you hear from the clients that your team is very passionate and they’re very present with us and that’s because we really focus on making sure that the message to the team is that you have to have wellness yeah you have to have wellness i love that that’s a beautiful message to leave for the viewers as well and that’s why rebecca is our clinical supervisor and that’s why we’re thrilled at the opportunity for her to sit in front of some of our great great clinical team members and really enhance the client experience and enhance the work life experience so thank you so much for coming on today you’ve got a great team we do have a great team yeah it’s a lot of fun jason would you like to leave the people with anything work-life balance clinical supervision mental health yeah i mean i think uh i think we talk about it a lot on on this show but like you know integrity oneness wholeness right i think part of that is i present well at work because i’m taking care of myself at home and vice versa if i’m taking care of my care myself at work then i’m going to show up well at home and um and i think that matters because i think when you talked about the person whose value is work like how is that integris with the rest of their life and and what does that look like and um and i think that’s what our clients pick up on our genuineness we like to work here we can tell you guys like each other like i hear these things too like your staff seems to like each other it makes it really easy to engage clients and engage people that walk in our door and families over the phone or whatever when when we’re when we have a high uh degree of support and just uh job satisfaction and happiness um and i do think um that is reflected with our staffing levels and everything like that like we have a lot of staff for the amount of clients we have but it’s it’s because that’s what it takes for us to care for one another and to to run a marathon pace because i think there’s a lot of organizations and i you know we hire clinicians from them that are they’re running sprints and their clinicians turn over really rapidly because they’re running sprint pace they can only do it for nine months before they’re just toast yeah i’ve been at peak seven and a half years it’s crazy to think about and uh um because i mostly run marathon pace sometimes hey man we both been on the sprint together yeah exactly it’s okay and you know is the president the founder of an organization with you know over 110 employees these are tough conversations to have because what i like to have rebecca and jason hovering over everything every hour of every day and being like do this try this do this sure that would be great but that’s not sustainable what is sustainable is mental wellness in the delivery that we get to show in action to our clients on a daily basis what this recovery process looks like and i am through the roof and honored to be on another episode of finding peaks connected with great professionals but even better humans until next time this is our labor day episode as well so happy freaking labor day hope everybody’s taking it easy putting your feet up drinking i really like i’ve been on this mocktail thing lately like the fruitier the better pineapple strawberry i like the pina colada strawberry non-alcoholic of course it’s my jam i would imagine it doesn’t taste better with alcohol i’m just saying so happy labor day everybody i know everybody works their butt off coming out of the pandemic i just want to honor each and every one of you from peaks recovery take it easy find us on our podcast um spotify apple music tick talk um we’ve got some new tick tocks coming out um instagram facebook until next time my people peace you

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Episode 68Is IOP the Best First Step?Watch Nowhttps://youtu.be/npUIIC0pT7oListen NowDescriptionIn this episode we discuss how outpatient and intensive outpatient therapy plays a vital role in recovery, though not always is it the best first step. Determining what level of care an individual truly needs is an important decision that needs to be thought through and directional.

Talking Points1. Private practice and when someone needs to be directed towards a higher level of care 2. Why people may chose the path of least resistance first 3. When is IOP the appropriate level of care? 4. ASAM connection 5. 3 vs 5 days a week for IOP 6. Family engagement Quotes

”The foundation of IOP is psychosocial stressors, and being able to manage and navigate psychosocial stressors in real time, in real life, and being able to stay at the level of recovery that you’re looking for. But in order to do that you have to experience those psychosocial stressors so that you can deal with them, hence the exposure piece.” – Clinton Nicholson, MA, LPC, LAC

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 68 Transcriptshello everyone welcome back to another fantastic episode of finding peaks made fantastic by yours truly the host brandon burns chief executive officer for peaks recovery centers joined today again by rarely seen jason friesman clinton lobster lpclic all right brain things clinical absolutely chief operating officer clint nicholson all oh no excuse me lpclic all left brain things absolutely gotta drop the the gotta get the credentials and the credentials in there they are the most important aspect today on this show we are gonna talk about uh iop not the services in and of themselves and which we do at peaks but just kind of a around the edges skirt around it talk to the family systems out there you know maybe future patients of iop programs in pursuit of these things and um going back to uh the most recent episode we did behind the care viewers check it out uh i think it was an excellent episode you might notice me tearing up at the end of it because it got emotional but i held it in like a strong left brained person does here right so i think diving into this i the kind of the first question i wanted to just ask to you guys because sometimes it feels like it’s true okay we find that johnny has a substance use disorder or a major mental health you know disorder of some type you’re the family member you’re looking at them and there’s going to be an incredible amount of ambivalence right around like i don’t have a problem or maybe they see that they have a problem but uh in our collective experiences for me it seems like the first option is always going to be kind of the the path of least resistance right detox into a residential stabilization model off into iop and those sort of things um you know and and being that you i think both are in private practice at some point or at least you you’re a prep practice both private practice right uh i would imagine you get a lot of individuals just saying no i’m gonna go do counseling and then they arrive at the frieza’s office and it doesn’t look like they just need counseling i mean is this accurate is this a good starting point for you i mean you’re hitting it right on the head absolutely people every day i’m sure walk into outpatient or private practice offices and say i might be drinking a little too much and i need to stop uh oh i need to cut down that would be i need to cut down that would be the outpatient too many calories empty calories uh yeah yeah so i need to cut down i want to go from two bottles of wine to two glasses of wine yeah like that kind of thing a lot of that mentality especially if people are just going to private practice and um and really what you see is a sort of unrecognized like substance use disorder or even you know major mental health issue if somebody is like really not functioning and they barely made it to your office in the first place yeah so from that moment in a private practice setting are you referring into an iop are you looking for residential detox or generally what is the kind of the go-to there you know brandon that’s interesting when you when you kind of mention that we’d be talking about this today i thought about um when i was doing outpatient therapy um the the training i had received was that people were supposed to kind of challenge you know maybe go to detox but then back to outpatient fail that iop fail that php fail that then go to residential huh yeah i don’t i don’t know why i was trained in that fashion but that was the way i was trained that like the qualifications to send people the residential treatment was failed treatment episodes at lower levels of care maybe that comes out of my small reading of our small reading of the history of our industry kind of going back to the 70s when they came out with 30-day model i think i gave it this was part of my speeches once upon a time at a conference with something in like 19 when insurance benefits first came out in that regard the state of massachusetts basically was like the the the state that said this has to continue for at least 30 days so if you’re going to insure an individual within the state of massachusetts you have to provide 30 days of care as an insurance benefit plan so this would be blue cross cigna had would have to pay for these 30 day benefits and then out of that of course you get an extraordinary amount of abuses when you say you have to you know do 30 days in that regard and so insurance companies upon all those abuses went in the other direction to say you had to have these prior failures to get into the residential to avoid that 20 years later out comes the florida model of care and the abuses have take place on the other side of it we’re not going to bore the audience with that but i think this is where this is sort of coming from so if it’s the if it’s the path of least resistance you know why in your clinical experiences is it that case that it is the pat like by the way like the model that i just described like model but like you know client comes in and they’re trying to you know sit down with the price i’m sure some of these patients right you inevitably end up getting to work with and so why do why do you think it starts with this sort of like no i can just do it over here and just do some talk therapy one hour a week and and be fine and move forward from there i think um

often times uh you know talking about in the in the substance use world like people don’t necessarily know what’s best for them and their treatment there’s a lot of um lack of self-awareness or maybe even some lack of self-honesty that can occur and um and i think this is just kind of human nature to do the minimum like if somebody wants to lose 10 pounds maybe i can just you know not eat after 8 pm or something and that maybe should do it or whatever and and i think that that’s a con like i feel like it’s a common human thing to just like i’m just gonna try a little i don’t need i mean i’ve heard it so many times in that setting like i don’t need to go to rehab or anything it’s not like i still have a job i still have all these justifications of why i don’t need to go to rehab um but i just need some help cutting back a little bit um so i just think it’s it’s human nature is what it feels like to me what do you think yeah i mean i think it’s i don’t know if it’s human nature if it’s more cultural that i mean we are as americans just always looking for the easiest way to get the most uh and best outcome possible and i think um especially with something like rehab like treatment uh and like a residential treatment there’s so much stigma behind that there’s so much there’s a huge misunderstanding of what it actually is and what um or at least there’s a huge lack of knowledge about what treatment actually is once you get in there and what you do and what the purpose is so i think that there are just multiple factors and probably a lot of fear as well from clients because for that very reason because they don’t know what it is there is a lot of shame and associated with it a lack of insight perhaps as well but it’s so they’re i think they’re you’re kind of going up a pretty big monolith of things and issues that will always guide people towards well i’ll do the least amount possible and just hope that i get better so you know one run up the ladder here for you know coming out of private practices maybe the the next path of least resistance is an intensive outpatient model of care iop programming that we can meet uh three days per week five days per week uh the general curriculum for that from an hour standpoint is three clinical hours or more per day within a sort of a per diem rate we won’t get into all the logistics of it to and bore the viewers around the insurance side of things on that but basically three hours per day three to five days per week so anywhere from nine to fifteen hours of clinical contact uh time in that regard um we’re still kind of considering this as the the path of least resistance you know correct me if i’m wrong it feels like if you’re going to go from hey i recognize i was called out maybe by a family member or a loved one or a friend or somebody in my life that said hey maybe i think you have a problem to me it feels like to really engage in an iop model with um with any sort of promise of a sincere outcome would require the individual to already be dedicated to hey i heard this i recognize i have this problem and so now i’m invested in this and i’m doing this because you know i gotta work from nine to five you guys have iop services at six pm and i’m engaged in this and i’m gonna show up wholeheartedly each and every day feels like the right candidate for that move who has already bought in that i have a problem i don’t want this to collapse around me and i’m curious about how to find resolve moving forward yeah they’re past that like contemplation stage of change and they’re in that more preparation like recognizing like something’s got to change i just don’t know what and or how much yet but i know that i need more than just going to my therapist once a week yeah and and again you bring up a good point when you talk about work and family and all that i mean residential treatment is disruptive you know it disrupts all of that it’s it’s all day 24 hours a day and some people just can’t walk away from their lives like that but um i think that uh yeah that that would be sort of the ideal person is somebody who’s passed that sort of well maybe i have a problem maybe i don’t have a problem and they’ve kind of more committed to this like all right i’ve gotta i’ve gotta work something i’ve gotta figure something out or else this is just gonna get worse yeah because that iop level of care implies um that the person can kind of manage the other um 21 hours in the day right and and they have enough structure and enough support and enough other um things in their life that can help them remain sober because you know certainly if somebody does not have a job and doesn’t have much support doing iop is really challenging because they have a ton of other time throughout the day that needs to be filled and um and there that iop level of care is kind of it’s a risky level of care if you will because there is a lot of time and a lot of exposure to to whatever it was that was causing um the the drinking or drug use or whatever is going on um so i think uh that’s an important factor too like okay if you’re i mean nine to 15 hours a week you know for us who work full-time jobs like that would be a major commitment in our lives but there are people that um that drugs or alcohol are taking up the vast majority of their life and the removal of that um still leaves a gaping hole even at 15 hours a week yeah so i’m gonna we’re gonna we’re gonna we’re gonna do a delicate dance here we’re gonna call out some stuff in the industry at the same time we’re gonna put it back together and to make sense of it but i think you know one thing that’s clear from at least what we do is a stabilization model right we’re so equipped from a staffing standpoint certainly other treatment centers out there have you know equal opportunities from staffing standpoint to do things like this but you know we had a little little tiff in the detox area this morning right clients went after each other for whatever reason right and our company culture turned and gave attention to that while also turning and giving attention to the other clients and also turning given attention to the staff involved in support structures even if this was happening at 1am you know in the morning we would have had on-call you know provider come in on-call clinician you know on-call residential staff we can you know bring people in to nurture those uh intense situations as they take fold on the other side of this you get representation across the 14 000 addiction treatment centers in america of oh we do residential services too and we’ve talked about it on the show on several times but we just want to recapitulate with the viewers the florida model of care here and the way that that works and it gets the name from its uh induction in from the florida healthcare system and in this regard but the whole goal of it was really to create sort of a campus style feel right you can live on campus you can walk over to here do your job you can go to school over here and it’s this real tight-knit communal sort of setting in that regard but what our industry really did with that is place sober homes all around you know the city in that regard and then set up an iop program over here and then we put the person in this home and we call it residential because we staff it you know and to be clear with everybody peeks did this four or five years ago we know what this model of care looks like and what it means and out of that you end up getting putting you know pretty uh unqualified individuals into a really into an environment where you’re telling the family system we can support them in this residential model as if you’re a stabilization culture a real inpatient residential setting with all the staff around it but we’re really talking about an unlicensed professional kind of just being sort of parental within these environments to negotiate that and then in the mornings you get them up and you bus them over to the treatment center where you can actually build for services and so the thing that i want to call out on behalf of this industry that all family systems should be aware of and that our industry can as we did with our own immaturities as a company move away from it but to create an actual ambulatory setting as we’ve done with our intensive outpatient where people actually come in and aren’t driven in you know in that regard and i highlight that because what ends up taking place especially if we’re not collecting sober living fees over here is insurance companies only paying for this location for the iop services so if this isn’t being paid for we get into these ethical issues of fee splitting taking insurance premiums to pay for sober living infrastructure at the same time it’s being conveyed to the family system that this is a residential inpatient environment and it’s nothing of the sword and so with that as sort of a backdrop and an introduction and or reintroduction in this florida model of care you know we were talking about on finding peaks uh behind the care episode around how old peaks used to have sort of a narrative right that uh the patient’s just not ready they’re not willing or they’re unwilling they’re disruptive they’re you know you you end up exchanging in real time a narrative that’s not true for the patient to negotiate with family systems in that regard that it’s actually them not wanting to do the treatment when in fact you don’t have the support structure around the individual to actually negotiate with them and get them on the right track in that regard that’s kind of a long spiel there in that regard but i think it’s an important bullet point to this because iop services should be strictly ambulatory and that’s why we opened up the beginning of this with that whole concept of like the path of least resistance the florida model of care attempts to do that but it comes with all of these other sort of red flags alongside of it and misuses of treatment episodes and we’re just not being honest with family systems about what’s actually going on so family systems at home if you were able to stomach that long narrative i just gave you in that regard think about that when you’re calling treatment centers who say they’re residential in that regard and are they actually doing that because residential inpatient services should be and look much different than due to its reimbursement potential in intensive outpatient service and if you find something like that i’m not saying it’s bad treatment just be wary of what’s going on when you’re in those discussions and maybe highlight this episode with them to say are you doing you know the speed splitting stuff and whatever at the end of the day but um to the point of the behind the care episode it seems like when we’re in those model of cares we start delivering narratives to the family systems that aren’t necessarily true because the company itself as you spoke to last time lacks introspection doesn’t actually have the capacity through that introspection to actually do something different over here and so we law about these narratives um and i just wanted to just briefly talk it doesn’t have to be pointed at that model of care but just briefly talk about in the absence of larger company cultures how you get into these narrative conflicts um in that regard and maybe just recapitulate that a little bit well the thing that i thought of when you were saying all that brandon was um hey i just want to make sure we understand what ambulatory is because that that isn’t maybe a common term that is used maybe outside of these rooms but ambulatory just means like people have the capacity they transport usually themselves from their residence or wherever they’re staying to receive treatment and iop that we were talking about today is an ambulatory level of care meaning they don’t live in our program they don’t live in our houses like we don’t have that opportunity for people to do that and that is where that florida model of care taking advantage of people building you know saying that their residential level of care meanwhile these clients are staying in their houses and so i think that part is important to say and um and there’s a there’s a like the iop model of care is designed for that ambulatory level of care meaning people are at home experiencing their lives and they come to treatment to learn how to navigate those experiences um and and remain sober through that navigating their life um that’s that’s the point of it so there’s that iop is kind of this exposure level of care there’s this exposure uh to those to triggers and to to events that um could lead down that path so i i just wanted to clarify that from from your long bullet point yeah i like that you called it a bullet point at the end yes

yeah you know yeah i know yeah a lot of commas yeah i i think that you bring up a really important point jason that iop is the foundation of iop is psychosocial stressors right and being able to manage and navigate psychosocial stressors in real time in real life um and and and being able to stay either with the level of recovery or um sobriety or whatever you want to call it um that you’re looking for right and so you have but in order to do that you have to experience those psychosocial stressors so that you can deal with them hence the exposure piece and when you’re not and to some degree what you’re describing is like a ha it’s not really exposure at all it’s still contained and it’s and um there’s not a really a chance for that individual to actually experience how they’re going to relate to the world and how they’re and if they are actually adequately equipped to navigate the stressors that they face so that’s really what ilp is geared towards at the same time it also recognizes that hey maybe i don’t have all the tools i need and so in the fact that i’m going to be experiencing these indicates that i still need more support or at least a level of support that i can’t get with like an hour of therapy a week right psychosocial stressors didn’t want to do this but that we’re kind of inching into a sam criteria right you said we weren’t

to that point briefly diving into it right i think it’s an important element of this because it’s out of a sam criteria that we’re largely advocating for uh authorization length of state timelines inpatient iop services whatsoever and those psychosocial stressors are under so asam for those out there the american society of addiction medicine has these six dimensions that you look at when an individual comes into treatment those psychosocial stressors are dimensions four five and six and the other side of that are dimensions one two and three primarily dimension two is any biomedical issues that might be going on in biomedical could be intense craving states awful dreams um you know issues around medications those types of things right this is where the stabilization is so important dimension three being primarily mental health concerns criteria medication management around all those types of things and so asam in that regard has done a really good job at hey this is residential inpatient services over here and then the psychosocial stressors should be over here into the point of the path of least resistance uh if we don’t have any of these underlying significant difficulties this is suited also you’re fully engaged in it at that point the point of stabilization models to get dimensions one two and three under control and encourage the individual to see the value of pursuing these additional services if they’re ambivalent or treatment resistant right is that a good recap of asam you just described medical necessity right that’s what you’re establishing is and that’s really into your very first statement of like how do you like about identifying what is the right level of care right whether it’s stabilization or intensive outpatient or just outpatient or php level of care it’s all based on that right there are these criteria these very objective criteria that we can look at to help establish does this individual meet medical are they medical necessity for the level of care that we’re recommending and that’s a great for my left brain makes me feel so good inside because it does it just lays out an objective path that we can kind of lean into and obviously there are nuances within that but it’s what keeps uh it’s what keeps the client healthy what provides them with the right level of care and it keeps us on a clear ethical pathway right as as an agency and every other agency that follows it totally yeah one last stab at this florida model care thing right the florida model of care is taking individuals at times who have significant dimension one two and three criteria and stating after a short detox stint we can support that in really this dimensions four five and six culture and it is a major error and i’m just going to keep bringing it up because it’s the the model of care isn’t bad in and of itself it’s when somebody a family calls and says i have this desperate situation and you say that it can support this when it doesn’t actually have the utility principles the staff or any of that stuff to really do dimensions two and three positively speaking in that regard so we’re not anti-florida care model we’re just gonna call it out when it says that we’re doing the stabilization thing in that regard or when it goes even further and it’s violating all these ethical insurance principles along the way for family systems just to be aware of and the power is in the hands of the family in that regard to again ask these questions be thoughtful because admissions line promise a lot of things and these are things we’re not thinking about in these moments of desperation where we can actually take a breath and just say okay this is really important to my loved one they’re in some serious awful pain whether it’s a detox episode or otherwise do you do it this way or do you do it this way because i’m looking for this way in particular in that regard so education is important here jog through some asam medical criteria in that regard we can see now the kind of the separation to this uh coming in in turn and for me and my experience um you know at peaks we do our intensive outpatient with you know peer recovery coaches we’ve got people constantly communicating with individuals even post stabilization to nurture that sort of you know resistance that might take place in the process so we really come after it but correct me if i’m wrong even for the uh the energy we put into our intensive outpatient those who come into our intensive outpatient from another stabilization model or from our stabilization model into it have higher rates of getting through the whole program than those who just come from uh the community uh in that regard and um that feels you know kind of going back to the path of least resistance the problem with just taking this path of least resistance because we’ll choose the iop model similar to choosing the private practice and so i think our data is pretty clear and that’s why i brought it up in the beginning and just want to rehash that one more time if that’s your guys’s experience in looking at our iop model in particular yeah i think i mean i don’t have obviously the stats in front of me but i do think okay yeah this is clinton left brain stuff yeah but certainly um when people do have i mean i can’t believe we are talking about asam like this but when they have these other dimensions uh uh addressed and under control their medications are regulated their physical health is on track um that gives iop the opportunity to work on the other issues like a primary support system and getting relationships repaired or if there’s a financial burden or an occupational burden or even a housing burden those are the types of things uh that get to be addressed um in an iop program also to include mental health stuff like yeah uh that’s a that’s a time to to deal with some ptsd issues and also uh implement ongoing support for depression and that sort of thing as well so uh yeah that usually works best because the problem with the way i described earlier is that usually you know when when people are having you know very physical cravings that have not been addressed but they’re trying to address it at this lower level of care it can get really frustrating when people aren’t successful in getting sober um i’ve kind of colloquially said that like a callous begins to form like if if people have repeated failed attempts to get sober at these lower levels of care like it creates a callous over uh like this is hard and hard work and maybe i can’t do it and maybe i maybe it enhances shame and that sort of thing so in a lot of ways i i think it makes a lot more sense to kind of get way ahead of it and walk through the detox and residential levels of care to get that stabilization to then clear the deck for addressing the psychosocial stressors yeah and i think on the other side of that you can be successful coming in from the community absolutely and we have actually i think our program is pretty good about that we have um some really wonderful successes of community iop members it’s a matter of how many psychosocial stressors are you trying to manage when you walk in through the door and that’s so that’s something that we’re always going to assess for on the front end and at that point if we see like oh right every dimension that we’ve been talking about is just in shambles we’re probably going to recommend why don’t we do some stabilization you know because this i i understand that you you want to go this direction because it feels like it’s going to be because this other direction maybe feels too heavy it feel you’re it’s there’s too much fear there’s too much shame there’s you don’t have enough support whatever the case may be but chances are going this path going in the iop level at this point in time with all of these psychosocial stressors um so activated and kind of out of control chances of success are really limited you know so at the very least at that point even if the client still chooses to go the iop route at least we’ve started the dialogue like we’ve started that conversation of like look we um will go this route with you but know what our recommendation is and know that when we see that if this doesn’t get better we’re going to continue to to move you in this direction because what what everybody who goes through the eye the doors of iop wants is change right they all want to get better and at some point once we’ve established the rapport established the trust and given them uh and shown them what’s what’s possible within that level of care then they start to see all right maybe i actually i do need something greater i need something more yeah certainly we’re invested in outcomes at peaks and want to punch through this data but you know as joanna conti said on the vista research episode the conquer addiction that per her understanding of all the research outcomes and data sets out there there’s only 100 treatment centers now to be charitable to the industry of a hundred treatment centers some of them have three or four different locations maybe five you know ten locations so we’re talking potentially a thousand locations that are pursuing outcome data at any given time uh in that regard so but a hundred of 14 000 treatment centers pursuing outcome is kind of a small number uh in that regard but i share that caveat because at least right now one year since the last use you have a 50 chance of not relapsing in the process from last use to one year you reduce you go down 50 percent and your potential to relapse right at year two you get an 85 percent outcome per these historical studies in that regard and i the reason i bring that up is because you know we’re in this conversation i can imagine you know some of you are out there just hammering away at finding peaks at peaksrecovery.com of course you guys are going to promote the stabilization model in this regard and of course it’s going to lean back into that direction but i think we’re really trying to share a sincere experience that this can go on for decades if we don’t get this right and take it seriously and create a path forward and be thoughtful about it not only as an industry but as a family system and being honest with patient care about this is not the path of least resistance this whole thing is going to feel like resistance uh in that regard because uh it’s challenging to go through craving states it’s challenging to gain awareness about why we started using drugs and alcohol in the way that we did it’s a path forward so in my head i think you know this starts under the notion of like what’s the rush we really do need time to figure this out and it’s helpful to be in a nurturing sort of stabilization setting to really accommodate and get that right and then of course for the viewers out there you know test these admissions team make sure it’s the appropriate stabilization setting in that regard but moving forward here coming off a stabilization model into a three day a week iop or a five day week iop path of least resistance and we say three days to all of our patients at peaks everybody’s gonna pull the three day cord now we insert this five day week of thing and i and uh and i’m speaking to those out there like well of course you’d want to do five days over three days higher range you know you know insurance reimbursements and so forth but it’s not really about that for us um three days a week is just fine uh and but we’re trying to navigate with the five days right three days a week works for us when you have a job you have these outside things going on already and then the five days a week if you don’t have a job you don’t have community built all that sort of stuff we’re really trying to make up some of that lost time throughout a day and nurture that and get those components right through the peer recovery coaches uh am i off here or is this kind of the general direction when we’re being thoughtful about these things we’re putting people into the buckets according to their downtime in a world that needs them to get to at least one year to get them to a 50 reduction in relapse rate yeah i mean medical necessity right like if you don’t need it we’re not going to recommend it and but that’s what uh again that’s what these pro these programs are designed for iop5 is designed for those individuals who have again really uh really disrupted or chaotic psychosocial stressors you know like that is what the program is designed for into your but like you said if somebody doesn’t have that if the majority if they’re only dealing with like you know two or three things in their life that they still need to uh really focus on and really really ground in order to feel like they can move forward in their recovery then five days a week is is too much and eventually you actually get a diminishing return you know it actually it becomes frustrating it seems uh an event and they’ll just throw their hands up and not do anything at all so there you run a real risk actually if you put somebody in to your to use your words the wrong bucket coming out of a stabilization model yeah and i think i think he did a great job describing exactly what our program does it was actually pretty affirming to have you say all that because that’s exactly how we designed it like the the two extra days we offer people are literally targeting like housing and finances and and that sort of thing and to clinton’s point not everybody needs that like some people have an intact career in intact finances despite their behavior and they don’t need that stuff but a lot of people don’t too so and for all of those out there hammering away psychosocial stressors into google right now uh and listening to the cycles of stressors are you know financial uh situations that the individual is challenged by its living conditions that you know maybe they don’t have a home to go to post stabilization treatment or whatever the case might be they don’t have a job or they have shame around pursuing a job or other downward pressures they’re you know they just get out of treatment and they lost a loved one in their life and they’re you know grieving through that and that’s causing you know disruption and even maybe even pursuing you know going to look for an apartment that day those types of things uh correct yeah also like lack of community or um unstable relationships like lack of emotional psychological support yeah totally just things that compound upon each other yeah you know the life things that all of this all the adulting the adulting stuff yeah why why do we you know so strictly ambulatory speaking right why do we encourage individuals especially young adults to not go home to go into the community sober living all that sort of stuff we get a lot of family systems say no it seems stable come back home live in the basement what are we trying to avoid there i mean sometimes we do recommend that honestly so i don’t think we have a hard and fast rule about that or against that um but there are there are certainly uh sometimes there are just dynamics that are kind of so ingrained that that without interrupting those it’s hard for parents to get back into a parent lane rather than a probation officer addiction counselor or a doctor themselves like it sometimes it takes longer space than even in our stabilization model sometimes those relationships take longer to literally stabilize sometimes they don’t sometimes a lot of repair work can be done and there isn’t enough of those patterns like honestly those are case by case basis i would say absolutely yeah i mean you just in general we just don’t want somebody to go back into like a maladaptive environment right or an environment that was at um at least in part at the a motivating factor or at the heart of what what drove them to either um dealing with severe mental health issues or substance use you know we want to avoid sending people back into the lion’s den so to speak if if but again if there’s if it’s just kitty cats and not lions then we’re fine yeah yeah well and i asked the question and you know it’s going to be a sidebar maybe this episode but uh a positive tangent do not delete this chelsea behind the curtain uh positive uh some i’m talking family systems in it as a non-parent right address that on this episode multiple times but as a parent jason it feels like at some point right you kind of trade out this parentalism with like hey you’re in college and we’re buddies now and we’re going to have conversations i would like not to have as a parent but as your buddy we’ll have the conversation right and it seems like there’s this nice transition of yes mom dad son or daughter whatever the case might be where it becomes more friendly and less parental and the cautionary tale i think of when i think of sort of the frustrations experience when johnny gets back in the basement you know so to speak in that regard is that it’s really challenging to stay in friendship lane because somebody’s living with you you know maybe the expectation of a non-family member would be to pay rent to be looking for a job to be you know sort of taking care of yourself and i think it’s a challenge for family systems and my kind of view and experience of it to uh live in that friendship lane but at the same time having to reinforce sort of this parallelism under this tough situation of like boundaries now learn boundaries at peaks and these sort of things and it seems to at times kitkats or lions and alliance then for sure create a ton of tension but even in the family systems that are pretty healthy at times it feels like it can create some pains there and so i just wanted to you know highlight with family systems maybe how to be just thinking about that as their loved one returns home or as they consider an alternative path yeah i think you know for parent that parent child dynamic like um i usually i usually say you go from that parent role not necessarily to full friendship but more like friend but also like a consultant because there’s like there’s always going to be a power dynamic there’s always going to be a generational gap um and you can’t ignore kind of uh that aspect and sometimes it’s it it just it can be too difficult for families to step into a different role other than it’s by house and and my rules and and i don’t have any problem with that i just think to me the issue is just communicating that really clearly and i’ve we’ve certainly had parents and again i don’t begrudge them at all but they’re just like i can’t you know if if he if my son or daughter isn’t home by nine or ten o’clock at night i can’t i won’t be able to sleep i won’t be able to tolerate my stress and i’ll get you know acid reflux or whatever and in those cases it’s like well then maybe they just shouldn’t come home like if it’s that stressful and and you know your your child is in their 20s like it might be an unrealistic expectation it’s okay and and so uh maybe we just need to look in in this other direction again i just see it so much as a case by case and and every home is certainly different in that regard as well he does the family stuff yeah so yeah i think if any a lot of people miss the million dollar word it’s boundaries yeah it’s it’s before individual companies are always going to say boundaries yeah just like our leadership i literally was talking about boundaries didn’t just say the word but yeah okay he he’s a little too on the nose yeah he knows what he’s doing we’re just we’re joking it’s not my first rodeo boundaries are the thing before johnny comes home right yeah you’re negotiating these boundaries hey i have this tension about you being home past 9am i want to talk about it now because i don’t want it to be a problem then yes i can honor the 9am thing now we have already hashed out the conversation right because as we’ve talked about you don’t introduce boundaries in the moment you negotiate those prior to any given moment for that internal safety right that’s exactly right okay otherwise we defend our boundaries with anger rather than yeah our belgians become a means of control rather than a means of support all right all right boundaries i’ve been watching some of these uh for the audience out there throw some popcorn in your mouth as i go on a small tangent here i’ve been watching some of these episodes uh in the past and i do that abruptly like the last episode you said some brilliant stuff especially around the introspection stuff and right when you’re done i go yep

i mean you can’t be in the studio but i’m looking at like clocks and time things are counting down so in a way i feel like move faster you know in that regard and so i’m like yep even though if they’re after very powerful points i apologize i’m getting better but you’re doing great call it out in real time we’re all learning here yeah absolutely negotiating this in real time so are there is there anything that i’ve missed about intensive outpatient or things that we would like to highlight further or just educate families on in this regard because you know the real journey here has just been able to i think you know from the beginning talk about there is going to be resistance to treatment whatsoever and that the path of least resistance is generally going to be chosen an opportunity okay if this fails at this point to build boundaries up as a family system walk through it hey i understand you’re going to take iop as the journey here watch something that you know finding peaks episode and brandon said stabilization is important so if this doesn’t go well i want to have a boundary that you will commit to these you know higher levels of care okay yes i mean you know when it’s good it’s good and negotiate within those positive moments uh and then getting into the differences between real ambulatory levels of care and real residential levels of care medical necessity should dictate kind of the uh which you know bucket we land in here for my lack of good language in that those bucket moments and so and then we’ve briefly described what iop is in general how we look at five days a week three days a week different psychosocial stressors that determine that as an episode uh am i missing something yes okay the thing that that we do that i think uh is rad i think it’s so cool dang it uh as we had uh this episode i i just did that for the drones i know um but we we do offer this family component we have both educational and support family groups and then we’ve recently added a multi-family group to work on boundaries uh and and just healing relationships and frankly i don’t know of a lot of iops that are taking the family system as seriously as we are to be honest with you to to really dial in on that primary support system um uh as much as possible um and so that i think that part we can’t miss like we’re talking to families in a lot of ways in this episode but it is really important to say um we really i mean we clinton and and i talk a lot about that it’s not just the client that is our client if you will it’s the system comes into our program and that includes at the iop level of care and it’s part of our core values that you’ve laid out for us brandon and like we’ve really taken that seriously not just to apply it at a residential level of care but to carry it through to the iop level of care as well it’s a great plug yeah i love that it was brad yeah honestly that’s right i told you one of our core values is family obsession jason gave it away so we’re always thinking about how to engage the families in this and to the viewers out there listening i wholeheartedly believe that families can really get the the term boundary correct in their life you can be such a powerful force not in the parental is a mode of things but a powerful source as an advocate of an individual’s recovery journey that doesn’t in turn come at your own emotional and lack of safety expense probably could have came out a little bit better there but that was good uh yeah and i think that’s powerful and i think that’s a thing we’re trying to nurture in that regard unfortunately insurances don’t cover family systems and programming at the same time it’s this thing to be paid for on the side and um we’re not the only program out there in the world of course doing these types of things but it’s important to us to invest in the family systems in that regard uh even if there’s not you know a recruitment of fees on the other side of it because we believe that if you guys get these concepts correct you can be more powerful than even the agency work that we provide at times especially post treatment so

boundaries stick with it learn it do them and invest just as much time as your loved one is in treatment whether it’s through al-anon outside service you know third-party outside free services or just finding a counselor that you can negotiate these boundaries with as your loved one goes through treatment and stick with it for a year i think one of the challenging things for me is families who go well that’s not working for me it’s like now we sound just like the individual who’s struggling over here you know we have to have this mentality that we’re in it as well uh to be the best possible advocate for the individual because they need these supportive structures and we have to be able to communicate well so we don’t cause that dysregulation around every corner fair anything else another plug that’s it no no more plugs i think the only thing i want to say is if you’re out there and you think you need help and iop is all you’re willing to commit to commit to it you know start there like it’s it’s a place to start and it can at the very least give you a level of support that you don’t already have give you insight that you don’t already have skills that you don’t already have and give you an opportunity to sort of acclimate to what it means to be in treatment and maybe eliminate some of the fear and shame and stigma that might be creating barriers for you to get to a higher level of care that may be more appropriate some you know support and treatment some support and treatment is better than no support and treatment if you’re struggling so no matter what don’t feel like there don’t ever let that become a barrier to getting help like not knowing uh if if iop is going to be enough or thinking that you have to go to residential treatment like don’t don’t hold yourself up like that it’s um come in get the help and then move forward from there um and make sure that you’re you’re going to a place that is willing to meet you where you are in that moment because that’ll be a pretty good indicator of the kind of the level of care that you’re going to get as far as quality is concerned yeah and that’s completely fair and in adding to that right private practice doesn’t hurt to say i don’t have a problem and you show up in the private practice and at least have one good conversation about it also doesn’t hurt there are free support systems you know if it’s mental health it’s through the nami lens but certainly aa ca um all of these anonymous communities in that regard are frontline potential intervention opportunities for you to at least you know sit in a room and see others experiences and see if you can relate to those well enough to you know get well on your own journey in that path in that regard so i really do appreciate you stating that glenn because help of any sort is better than no help whatsoever so good thank you i like that yeah fine yeah yeah yeah all right with that everybody uh thank you so much for joining us here for this episode of finding peaks to talk about intensive outpatient programming some of the variations of it uh and how it is this ambulatory program opposite of residential settings uh out there hopefully this was educational and for informal for all the uh family systems out there thinking about how to explore treatment opportunities uh finding peaks at peaksrecovery.com send us your ideas thoughts concerns questions bring it all to us we’d love to talk about it on this episode of course the the twitters the facebooks the tick tocks chris burns heart days chase them on the trails find them there lots of energy lots of love for people in recovery and i’m sure i missed something like an instagram spotify that’s a lot of teen stuff but and whatever uh jason has a spotify app i guess that makes all the apps yeah yeah anyways we’re out of here folks until next time love y’all

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Episode 67Depression: Signs, Causes & TreatmentsWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/PSTXfrHs0vMListen NowDescriptionAt Peaks Recovery we help and care for a great amount of clients suffering from a depression disorder, which can come in various shapes and sizes. Our team wanted to have a deep conversation about the complex dynamics of depression and how we provide hope towards overcoming it.

Talking Points1. What is depression? 2. Depression and women 3. What depression can look like 4. Depression and men 5. Pharmaceuticals, connection, depression Quotes

”Depression is the inability to become fulfilled despite our best efforts.”-Chris Burns – Founder and President

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 67 Transcriptswelcome to another episode of Finding Peaks I’m Jason Friedman Chief clinical officer here at Peaks recovery centers uh I’ve got a few guests with me today first up Lauren atencio Clinical Director of our men’s program at Old Ranch Road I have Chris Burns president and founder of Peaks recovery and a new guest Chris’s beard joining us today yeah so I would like to welcome Chris and the beard to the show um I don’t have the ability to do that so oh you didn’t get the memo to bring your dinner okay she likes it though it does look good um so today uh we I wanted to Circle back around a few uh months ago we had on uh Dr Stephen alardi who wrote a book called the depression cure and we spent a lot of time talking about um his book and kind of how he uh abused and understands depression um and I think we had some really good discussions about it um and he comes from a very academic and research-oriented world and I kind of wanted to to humanize maybe or not human eye not that he wasn’t a human but like I wanted to to put some actual real conversation in around depression and so that’s what I’d like to do today um and I think you know I was talking uh to our CEO Brandon uh earlier today and I think we’ve had uh you know a fair amount of our clients now are coming in um with their primary issue coming into Peaks being major depressive disorder and it’s certainly something that we’re seeing more and more of uh as we continue to grow in our business and and really try to treat all mental health issues substance use and mental health uh under one kind of uh curriculum and under kind of the guise of suffering and certainly um as I was talking to Brandon earlier uh I talked about how uh certainly all depression leads to suffering but not all suffering is depression and so I think I wanted to start with maybe uh defining depression and um and Lauren maybe I’ll look for you for that like how what what signs and symptoms do you see of depression and I’ll add a few and then Chris will go to you yeah I think is something that Society kind of puts in a box sometimes too like this is what it looks like you won’t get out of bed you won’t do this you won’t do this and I think there’s different levels to depression that people don’t consider right there’s this high level high level functioning depression where I can go to work I can get everything done and I’m still feeling super empty inside and so when we go to signs and symptoms right it’s not always sadness I think sadness can be a big part of it but I think that’s where people kind of mistake as well um but it’s also just feelings of emptiness right numbness um a really really big lack of energy lack of caring about anything inability to connect with others just due to our own narratives about ourselves and it kind of shows up in a lot of different ways and it is very situational for whatever clients kind of present at the time right some of our clients don’t even know that they have depression and they’re like yeah it’s just you know every time I walk into work I just don’t care I don’t feel anything and it’s like that’s depression so let’s talk about that more yeah and I think to add on to what you said certainly other things we see is irritability and that often isn’t linked necessarily to depression but it doesn’t feel good to be depressed and um and so irritability tends to be there and a big part of depression too could be passive suicidality or just being suicidal but you know when we’re kind of screening clients as they’re coming in I like to ask a lot of questions like do you sometimes wish you wouldn’t wake up in the morning or do you sometimes think the world would be better without you or there would be less pain in the world or everyone might be sad for a minute but then everybody’d be happy that you were gone and oftentimes that is absolutely one of the signs of depression and also honestly some of the first steps to being you know fully suicidal too are some of those um kind of more passive thoughts and that sort of thing and and that is this sort of thing that um is I think really important to address and uh walk through and Chris I’d love to hear kind of your feedback on on what you’re hearing from us clinicians I I love that you guys are the experts for sure um you know what I see with depression is is like this this inability to become fulfilled despite our best efforts um and I watch people and you know when we first started Peaks we didn’t have the mental health awareness that we have now and I remember sitting with guys and they would say Chris you know and I would go through the full gamut of community-based resources to try and turn the light on I’d say you know when I first got into recovery they were like hey did you call your Mentor did you call your sponsor you should go to a meeting did you meet with your therapist you go to group were you honest did you eat did you sleep all of these things and as a young professional most certainly when I started Peaks having been into the field for five years I used to go through the Rolodex of tools and with folks with depressive episodes they were like did that did that did that yeah and it didn’t work yeah and I learned very quickly um through running peaks in my early time in the field that it wasn’t a light switch and that depression as as you pointed out shows up in a variety of different ways I’m actually called to kind of even higher level depression where people don’t see it and I Dr alardi’s approach really speaks to me on this because I remember having you in the gym and I think I’ve mentioned this in the show you know for a couple weeks and you look at me and you say Chris I think I was a little bit depressed yeah you know and so I would have never thought you were depressed yeah nor would you right but when we get a little bit of sun on our face in the morning allow that to rise on our face get a good sweat in and get some authentic connection I think we can grow up and out of that and so I think it shows up in a variety of different ways but in my experience until the Psychotherapy TMS pharmacological combination we hadn’t seen the results I think that we’re seeing today and I love that we have a lot of these resources that we really used to look at and throw shade at TMS that’s crazy they’re putting a thing on your head and you know that’s not holistic and um but it’s sad when you’re in the midst of somebody with major depressive disorder I can remember being in a group with three women who had major depressive disorder about six months ago and it was a group of 10 women and I found myself in that room and I’d never done this before in a in a group or a circle whatever my accountability situations are called and I just found myself moved to tears because the room was so depressed and the only thing that I could do to move through that was to meet him where they’re at yeah and a lot of those women were actually doing really well today happy to report which is really cool that is really cool and I think you you bring up a really interesting thing uh a point I think I’ve had a lot of conversations with people too where you know maybe they are irritable or they have trouble getting out of bed in the morning or they don’t want to get out of bed or don’t want to wake up ever again and and I’ll say to them hey um that’s not usual like that that’s actually called depression and and it usually is surprising truthfully like it usually involves kind of some kind of coming out of a denial process because some of those signs and symptoms are so subtle and if you think about like postpartum depression too like a lot of women coming out of childbirth and that sort of thing and having all the hormones like they kind of feel it like malaise and not feeling like they want to do anything and I don’t have any interest anymore and I don’t why don’t I feel anything anymore and it’s called depression and and it can be um so challenging and difficult to walk with people through that process um of kind of coming out of denial and like being like you don’t have to live like this like there’s a solution here yeah but it could also shift the negative self-talk too because before I know I’m depressed I just think there’s something wrong with it yeah well and that’s where I was going to go right like this is where we put shame in the conversation of for me what I’ve seen with my clients is shame is the biggest driver of depression because when I can’t get out of the bed when I can’t eat when I can’t do the things that I need to do and everyone around me is telling them up telling me I need to do them I then turn it Inward and I say I’m bad this is my fault I’m not good enough I don’t matter I’m not worthy and all of these narratives start to just keep like getting reinforced with our clients and so then they move to those maladaptive coping skills I’m not worthy so I’m going to use substances I’m not worthy so I might act out in you know different self-injurious behaviors but or like even the suicidal thoughts right the shame in the background is just fueling it and telling us every day that we’re not good enough and our depression is going to win every time when we do that and so I think a big thing that I focus with on with our clients and I don’t know our clinical team really focuses on is the shame part how do you get in front of that narrative how do you do one thing today I tell my clients all the time if you got out of bed today that’s a win yeah I don’t need you to do anything else today I just need you to get out of bed and I think we again going back to this societal view is like we have we make these big goals but we didn’t even start at the bottom let’s start with the small goals let’s figure out what the signs and symptoms of your depression are so we can start to cater to them you know not necessarily shame them they’re not bad you’re they’re your way of surviving it’s literally your body can’t take a lot of what’s going on so it shuts down your nervous system just kind of collapses and so being able to just validate this experience for our clients yeah you are going through this and let me tell you there’s nothing wrong with you that’s that first step into being like maybe I can wake up in the morning then maybe I can go to group and then maybe I can you know brush my teeth tonight it’s these little little things that everybody leaves out that I think we really try to reinforce in peaks of like we’re not going to force you to do all these things we’re going to meet you where you’re at and we’re going to help your depression just kind of perk up a little bit I like that that’s really cool too it’s a it’s an interesting way to really like individualize care and each person is going to come in with a potentially a depressive a major depressive disorder and it’s going to look different some people can’t get out of bed some people can’t sleep you know and it’s complete opposite ends of the spectrum some people don’t eat some people eat too much you know it’s so interesting how it shows up in a variety of ways and I love that we’re in this position now and I think you really share like a hopeful view because what it says is not just the trauma work is going to help with your depression but it’s certainly going to release some some tie downs per se and some roots and repair those a little bit so the quality of life goes up and then you have the opportunity to look you know with the psychiatrist from the pharmacological side and then we have the TMS side and so it’s just a really cool way that I see you and your team walking people through this journey because as I’ve said on the show before and I’ll say it again my goal for each and every client is to have more hope than they can remember having when they leave Peaks I tell every family that’s my goal it’s not my team’s goal they probably kill me for that but that’s what they do yeah and I believe that’s possible even in the depressive side of things and Dr alardi’s stuff is pretty key in that as well it is and I think I mean you hit on such an important Point too is that irritability can certainly lead to isolation and kind of like with shame um you know not struggling to get out of bed and then being all by yourself like that literally is going to compound depression and that is that is um I mean that’s kind of the the terrible irony of depression is like the symptoms actually tend to worsen just based upon their own uh presentation like if I don’t know if I want to get out of bed in the morning then it’s harder to get out of bed and then if I don’t think I’m safe for human consumption today then I’m going to isolate and I don’t want to really be around anybody and then I’m going to not eat or eat everything I can get my hands on and I’m just gonna feel terrible to myself and continue on this spiral and I think um what I think Dr lardy brought to our team and what we continue to implement all the time more and more in our program is that in a similar way we can kind of reverse that pattern like you know in my years of doing counseling with people struggling with depression um you can’t go sit in therapy and be cured from it like it’s that part helps but like it’s gonna be there there has to be this implementation of behaviors in order to um treat it um and and to kind of reverse that spiral down like in and you alluded to me uh when I when I went to your gym when I lovingly call the pain cave um uh like you know you and I I think I’m that second or third week like we had been working out four times a week talking uh getting outside running um and then all of a sudden I’m like wait I feel different and I think it just started spiraling in this other direction and I think um that’s the key part and that’s and and again depression tells you don’t do anything like just the solution is to not move and not do anything and so it feels counterintuitive to begin to try to get some exercise and to try to talk to people and try to share it um but I think that’s how we kind of begin to unwind it what do you see with the men Lauren as we kind of build the that aspect like some of those Concepts that we’ve got from Dr alardi yeah you know I think we have and Dan I know was on here recently um but integrating this new kind of just fitness program within our within our curriculum um you know us clinicians trying to be outside as much as we possibly can with our clients whether that’s doing mindfulness walk snow though that’s doing a session outside but just trying to promote kind of being outside moving your body um but also a lot on the back end too is like that encouragement of it um I was sitting with a client yesterday and Dan walked by and he was just like you killed it yesterday you did so good in the workout and this is a client who doesn’t talk a lot to anyone but his whole face lit up right so it’s the part of like we move our body and we do these things but we’re also getting recognized a lot of clients don’t you know they don’t have people in their life who are promoting like good job getting out of bed today it’s more like why didn’t you get out of bed today and so being able to just kind of have us on the back end of well we’re going to take this walk and if you still feel bad at the end of it then we’re going to try something else and we’re always going to keep trying until you find the thing that maybe will you can Implement into your daily routine and it will help you kind of get out of that whole that depression kind of puts us in yeah I think that’s why the Aftercare planning is is so important because what you all are alluding to is like connection really matters and safety really matters specifically you spoke about the men’s and Crossfit and things of that nature I was out of out of the office I was camping for like a few days and I came back and I had missed a women’s CrossFit workout um but I came back for the crossfit workout and I get there right when it starts and every single female is working out and I’m locking up to a couple of them that I wouldn’t have expected and I said oh my God and she was like absolutely I had a great workout last time and she’s moving through it they’re moving through it so well but they’re doing it together and so it’s my experience and my opinion specifically with depression and um early recovery it’s so important to ensure because I most certainly was depressed in my first year recovery but I had a great person to my right and a great person in my left and they just wouldn’t allow me to sit there said we’re going nobody ever said you to me everybody said we are we’re we’re doing this together we’re part of this we’re doing it and that felt so nurturing and eventually by about a year or sober I started getting some sun on my face and started to grow up and out of kind of that depressive state but it was more about Community Connection for me sustainably for a long period of time that really helped pull me through that and I was running this morning right I’m running this morning and I decided to run down to the ranch because I’m training for this Marathon I’m feeling really spirited and I run out of my house and I never run in this direction I always go left so the Sun hits me here well I go right and I go and I’m running down to the ranch and I’m crossing powers and you’re so exposed by the sun um and it hit me or maybe it was coming back either East and West no it was coming back and it hits me and it barely like I can’t even see and oftentimes when I’m running into the sun like that it’s almost blinding but what always happens for me and I have no idea why two tears just go and in that moment I remind myself that today is going to be a good day and it’s just a little bit of sun on your face yeah getting ready to go do what you love I kind of want to go back to the connection thing for a second of what you said because this is kind of what I have seen within the men’s program as well is that you know I think the last time we talked I was on here we talked about the age differences as well and it is just so interesting to see that like you know our our younger clients can come in and say like I’m depressed and then our older clients can say like wait I might be too you know and and being able to see them connect on this way of like oh he can say it I can say it too he doesn’t get shut down if he talks about his feelings I can talk about my feelings too and I think it just creates this safety like you said of you know I can sit in the middle of the room and share my deepest darkest secrets and I know everybody in here probably experience the same exact emotions and feelings I had and so it almost it kind of going back to what you said it just like normalizes depression a little bit we sometimes feel like we’re so alone in this struggle and to be able to come into a program and see that we’re not I think that’s one of the most freeing things for our clients yeah yeah it really is yeah so the other aspect um Lauren you mentioned at the beginning is the pharmaceutical kind of intervention um as well and uh I don’t talk about it a ton but I used to work for a pharmaceutical company back in the early 2000s actually Lauren you were probably a baby and you were probably in elementary school or something but like I do think um uh the company I worked for I sold uh there um it was I was in the Neuroscience Division and so we we had an antidepressant that we sold and so um pharmaceutical companies are big and they are good and they know what they’re doing I went to school I went to um a one-month school to learn about how all the drugs work and I went to a whole other like two-month school to learn how to sell um so I remember um being taught about how um you know it we have two little some people have too little serotonin in their brain and then um this particular medication goes and it blocks these pumps at the end of the neuron that take the serotonin back into the neuron and so because it blocks those pumps it leaves more serotonin in the synapse and that creates uh less depression and and um I’ll never forget what they said at the end um they said that’s our Theory uh because we you know we can’t see what’s happening in the brain and we can’t see the little neurons and we can’t we just have these this Theory but we believe that’s what this particular medication does and so off I went to all the doctors offices and sold it and all this and then um and then literally I think two weeks ago there’s this big meta-analysis uh that came out about um depression and what this meant analysis of like 2000 some studies about antidepressants showed is that they don’t think it has anything to do with serotonin and they don’t know um what is effective in treating depression truthfully and like I had to take pause for a second and be like everything that I that I taught and that we have been taught as a profession like this meta-analysis was like we actually don’t think so and we don’t know what’s helping and and it’s what brings me back to this like behavioral intervention piece um because the other thing you learn in pharmaceutical schools in or just in any program is like placebo-controlled studies and what that means is where you give some people a particular medication you give other people a sugar pill and you compare those and the reason they have to do that is because the people you just give a sugar pill to improve 30 percent on their own just from getting the attention and being around a psychiatrist and having you know a nurse hand this person a pill that alone creates an effect and so to me all of this kind of just speaks to hey we it isn’t mad you can’t just go get medications and I’m not here to say take meds are done I’m no doctor by any stretch of the imagination but I am saying um similar to what I said you can’t just kind of go to therapy and consume therapy and expect not to feel depressed you can’t go to a psychiatrist and get a pill and expect not to feel depressed either and in fact it’s it’s likely a lot of these factors but some of it is just this behavior and this connection and this movement and this eating different and this um getting Sun literal sun and vitamin D and that sort of thing so um I don’t know like they I’ve been thinking about this for a couple weeks now and it’s hard to kind of conceptualize what that all means and it’s a disruption yeah I’m sure well I think too like to go off of that I think that is one of the really incredible parts of Peaks and I mean I guess just treatment in general right like that we can prescribe medication and we can see how it works with your depression while you’re getting clinical work so you’re not just sitting there like is this going to work is this med going to work is this med gonna work it’s hey I’m going to try this med and I’m going to try clinical work and I am going to give this my all in this setting because I know it’s a safe contained space and if it doesn’t work I have people all the time to help me through it medical medical is great I just kind of assessing you know our clients needs but they also are really great with communicating with clinical what are you seeing what are you noticing where do we need to look at and being able to just kind of see the collaboration of medical and clinical to be able to say hey my client’s way more depressed than when he came in I want you to hear me when I say that and they do and so it’s just about collaborating and figuring out what’s the best for our clients coming in and really making sure too that we I see a lot of times especially with the depression talk and TMS and medication and therapy oftentimes I see clients getting vast improvements through a myriad of resources and sometimes I I always I’m always quick to correct them but I’ll hear clients say yeah TMS is a game changer it’s saving my life and I’m like what about the two sessions a week with Lauren that you’re actually emptying the tank and working wholeheartedly I think you ought to he’s like oh yeah that too I’m like yeah see that matters it all matters together and the connection I think is is the big red bow that kind of goes over the top and I think that hits it right on the head Chris that like it it does take all like as many tools as we can have on our tool belt um to because again I think medication is an actual important component I don’t know I don’t know how that all works and I don’t think we anybody knows how it works like this something’s working there um for sure and I think you know having other alternative options like TMS can be very beneficial in the therapy and then the community and then the next like that that’s what it takes I think to really wrap around and treat major depressive disorder I wish there were other options quicker easier faster that isn’t quite the American way but like that probably is how we’ve gotten here is that that’s what we expect and that’s what we want when really this is a much more complex and and more difficult problem to walk through yeah I love it too and once you get that somebody safe and connected then they’ll walk with you to go do the sun thing on your face yeah but before that you’re like go get some sun and they’re like get out of my room you know but when you’re like Hey we’re gonna go grab some sun today and we’ve known each other for a couple weeks and we’ve built this relationship and they’re like all right let’s get some stuff so well I think that goes back to the quote that you guys always say nobody knows nobody cares what you know until they know that you care well and I think that is such a huge part of the depression concept is like no one cares about me and I don’t care about me right like I feel so less than first of all probably I don’t deserve love and I don’t want to put people in my life who have to suffer with me and so it kind of showing them that you know depression is not you it is this part of you that we will explore and will connect with and we’ll understand but who you are as an individual is very different from your depression who you are as an individual is someone who can light up the room and not say anything so although you think your depression is bringing you down we actually see those other parts of you that you just can’t and I always say the clients let us fight for you until you can fight for yourself and that is just kind of again going back to the Rapport building going back to just sitting there and saying how’s your day right just being very very intentional within the process because like we’ve been saying connection is the piece here they just people just want to know that someone cares someone’s willing to just say hi to me today and I don’t think anybody’s born into this world depressed yeah I’m gonna leave that all right with with that I appreciate that correct um with that uh I think we’ll go and wrap wrap this up I appreciate the discussion um I do want to be clear sometimes like when we talk about depression like it’s kind of it’s a little depressing this is the most upbeat topic to come in and talk about but I figured yeah hey who doesn’t want to get out of bed today yeah um but I want to acknowledge that and it is it is real and for families out there um I know it can be frustrating if you have a loved one who’s struggling with depression that’s hard and you can be like just buck up or like Get over to like come on buddy um that doesn’t tend to work like like real clinical depression is hopeless and and Powerless and um and it can feel like you know you have a car sitting on your back and I don’t care how hard you try it’s hard to overcome that and so I just want to speak to that part that that sometimes it does require um good professional competent help um and so with that I thank you guys uh for joining me in this episode um please find us on uh Spotify probably an Apple iTunes and Facebook Instagram uh Chris is in his Snapchat videos Tick Tock videos snapchats of different things I’ve been off my game in the last few weeks but oh Chris is coming back

um and uh tune in uh soon please feel free to email us and uh ask any questions or offer feedback

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Episode 66Behind the Care: Leading a Healthcare TeamWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/AJTaumMA3boListen NowDescriptionIn this unique Behind the Care episode, our team dives into the many dynamics it takes to lead a healthcare team. We discuss growing pains, shifts, industry pushbacks, and the multifaceted nature of growing a team within such a significant and growing industry.

Talking Points1. The dynamics that change when going from 12 employees to now over 100 employees 2. What it looks like within our company when a client is disrupted 3. The industry shifts seen throughout the years 4. The balance between taking care of the clients and taking care of our team 5. Growing our clinicians toolkit 6. Creating an authentic culture 7. The large weight our team can carry when we experience a loss within the reality of healthcare 8. Continuously trying to be better 9. Shoutouts to all leaders Quotes

”No organization works if there isn’t safety, and if there isn’t trust. If you have those two things then you have an environment of creativity, risk, of exploration, but also of support, compassion, and empathy.”-Clinton Nicholson, MA, LPC, LAC

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 66 Transcriptshello everyone brandon burns chief executive officer for peaks recovery centers inviting you all back to our wonderful finding peaks podcast here we are media episode here today joined by jason friesma this guy chief clinical officer lpclac all the clinical things clint nicholson chief operating officer lpclac all the other clinical things yeah right yeah okay welcome back guys it’s been forever since i’ve seen you so grateful to have you back on the show uh today we’re talking about um leading a healthcare organization what’s that what’s that like what are we doing comments thoughts ideas finding peaks at peaksrecovery.com that’s where this idea is coming from we want to talk a little bit about the behind the scenes of what it means to actually do something like this and operate a company like this and deliver the services that we promise i think the thing that i want to start with the viewers uh with is that oftentimes i come out of these out of the gates in these episodes and i and i poke and i prod and i point at the problems but we don’t i don’t always do i think a terrific job about wrapping that around and providing us like the solutions in the actual context and the sort of story building to it um so hopefully deliver that more be patient with me world uh on i think the probably the best segue that i can think of into this topic is the responsibility right first and foremost of advertising for services like our substance use disorder mental health primary whatever the case might be we put an ad up on the internet we send out clips into social media the social medias the tick tocks of the world all of that and out of that we get a response for people who are engaged and looking for the services and for me there’s a significant responsibility that comes with that because you’re stating i can help the condition you are suffering from in the first place but certainly in our growth at peaks starting from 12 employees with 36 beds to having 111 employees with 36 beds there’s a great deal you can do in leading a behavioral health company uh in our industry uh clinton’s only been with us for two-ish years going on so we’re not gonna go all the way back in time in that regard but certainly freeze i think you and i both know the differences in running a company culture with 12 employees for the same amount of beds uh versus 111 and and walk us through just a little bit of how you see that responsibility shifting from those good old days to kind of where we’re at today right because when we’re when we’re in those moments with that setting and with that amount of staff and that same sort of wholehearted dedication there’s there’s limitations to it at the same time um i don’t think we ever felt like we weren’t doing the right thing right yeah i think that’s fair and i think i mean talking about a transition i mean it is it is crazy to go from a company that does have 12 employees uh to an organization that has you know over a hundred and um so much of it was just our growing up and development as as an organization and i think um when we were kind of in a grassroots stage of like startup and and opening up and primarily doing uh php and iop work um the transition from that uh that that felt um very similar to when i was doing um my own practice with counseling uh whereas now i feel like we literally are a behavioral health care company i would not have said that seven years ago by any stretch of the imagination but now you know we have a medical team and we have a ton of protocol for how we treat various conditions and how we go about our our business and then as a result of that it’s really offered us the opportunity to help out uh a set of clients that off that we would never have been able to handle five years ago maybe not even three years ago um and we we’ve actually been talking about that as a leadership team just the expansion of our capacity as far as uh what type of person we’re able to help support so that’s that’s what i’ve noticed in our growth yeah well you can’t go back into those milestones with us uh in that regard clint so we’ll we’ll get up to speed here as far as uh getting you involved with this uh this discussion but i i think one of the you know the aspects of that growth in in leading a healthcare company right the the first thing that i recognized is all the jobs i was doing in the early stages of our growth and our development and probably all the hats that you were wearing in that regard therapist manager case manager family services provider transportation maybe at times i don’t know i was certainly doing tours and you know things of that nature but i state all that because um the responsibility to the individual we have a stabilization model right we’re telling you know families that when individuals come into you know peaks recovery centers that first two weeks is probably one of the most challenging time periods from a craving state protocol from a comfortability uh mental health primary individuals finding safety within the organization to you know sit still and be there in the first place and walk through their journey with us so getting back at that responsibility it feels like the greater responsibility we’ve obtained in this sort of transaction of employees is an actual ability when somebody is disrupted disregulated whatever that might look like for the organization first and foremost to be able to turn to that individual support them on top of that be sure to let the family system know what’s going on be supportive of them and you know talking about what’s going on whether person’s about to ama or whatever the case might be uh in that regard and also to be able to nurture the whole milieu who might be disrupted by the disruption or who might be just totally fine but at the same time you want to give priority to because they’re there suffering in their own you know unique ways at that time and so just curious to talk a little bit more about that and out loud with you guys about you know that collective experience and what it’s been like to arrive at a place that had literally no staff on color maybe you were just the primary one at that time you know to now having if something you know gets disrupted you know especially around the shifts the night shifts and the weekend shifts where your little you know lighter in staff where we have you know now here at peaks right a medical provider on call a clinician on call a residential staff member on call executive team members on call individuals who in a moment’s notice now can turn and actually show up on site and help nurture the individual the family situation and everybody else around us i’m going to speak pragmatically which uh so you got the feeling lane oh yeah i’ll take care of you yeah i think i got it but i think i you bring up an issue i i can remember um contemplating like how do we scale this business because so much of it was just about the personalities like it was my personality yours chris’s um you know and other people that have come along along the way here and how do we scale our persons and actually what it turns out is you need processes i need to take what the people are doing and then teach that and build the processes and um you’re welcome for that yeah absolutely i mean so how does that feel that was about that his pragmatism was about as short-lived as i imagined

more than that no my feelings are immense right now yeah i can imagine pragmatically speaking i think any organization um that’s go that goes from this like grassroots sort of model that you mentioned jason like initially you guys are the answer to everything right like individuals within the company those 12 people that that core solve all of the problems but if as a company gets bigger if a company is going to get bigger at some point the operations do have to take over i know i’m a little bit you know steered towards the operational side of things but eventually systems actually replace people to a certain degree so that you can expand and replicate and being able to but i think the key is actually being able to court to connect there is a clinical aspect to the way systems are developed and implemented that actually makes a good behavioral health company a good behavioral health company so the systems actually have to be designed to meet the needs of people not just the needs of the organization and really have to be clinically and medically sort of founded so that it supports um it kind of doesn’t really replace the talent that is that was initially or the individuals that were initially solving those problems but it allows for it to be sort of replicated to a certain degree yeah yeah but in the end i mean it that’s that’s what it takes you have to have operations put in place and systems put in place yeah how i you know i’m curious jason and you know something that you know i think it’s important for the viewers out there to experience like you know growth frustrations within organizations or even organizations out there who might be that 12 you know staff organization like how do i get from there to a place like you know peaks and make those leaps but you know so i just want to highlight what feels like

an experience um that at the time felt healthy and right and now doesn’t feel like the best approach and the way things we’ve been talking about narratives right and our company culture what is the common narrative that brings all individuals into peaks that shared collective energy whether it’s mental health primary substance use disorder and so forth that is a commonality of the room we’ve we’ve thrown words out like suffering you know we’re commonly suffering as a culture as a society individuals within the society maybe that’s the language we’re still working on it but when we were not right sized in the way that we are in serving the patient demographic but going back to that time it seems like you’re constantly projecting a narrative right and out of that narrative comes harmful things i potentially harmful things that otherwise wouldn’t take place like we might say something like in past peaks culture with those 12 employees that oh the client’s just not willing whereas in this culture that we’re in it of course they’re not we they just gave up you know the drug we know the tension that exists within those craving states and we identify that and so the narrative now is in like oh they’re not willing it’s like they’re going through a really challenging moment right now and they’re suffering in a big way then they’ve not suffered you know prior to coming into this program because of these detox protocols like like let’s have a genuine conversation about that let’s work through ways in which we can uphold boundaries that are positive in this regard that can be supportive of the individual but at the same time it’s not an unwillingness or a personal character trait um for why they are you know disregulated in the way that they are i mean does that feel accurate kind of comparing yeah i mean from a clinical terminology we would say treatment resistant and um fortunately we don’t say those words at all it peaks because uh that’s not a very curious statement um and it’s not very it’s very blaming on equine and it doesn’t require much uh uh clinical aptitude but but that’s sort of mentality or or using the word denial like somebody’s just in denial another word that we don’t really use anymore at peaks that’s those are the first couple things that come to my mind um as i look at our growth yeah yeah in statements like that what they do is they allow the organization to not be introspective right like you don’t actually have to look at yourself as an organization and look at your processes and um look at the way in which you’re approaching things because it’s just always the client right well they’re not responding well to our program because they’re just not ready you know or they’re too acute or they’re just not right for they’re just not a right a good fit for us and those are um essentially statements that that shut the organization down from growth right because they really they bypass introspection and i think that that’s the one thing that um peaks actually does really well is we’re not afraid to look at what we can do better even the processes that we’ve had that we have now versus six months ago versus a year ago i mean those have all shifted and we’ve allowed ourselves that space and that uh and that ability to be um introspective and and reflective and really look and see all right what is working on what’s not working and this isn’t about because the client didn’t respond well to it it’s about what can we do better and how can we actually meet the client more where they are yeah and that that that reminds me of course too of like outcome studies and the importance of it when you engage in outcomes you know one of the things and for all the viewers out there if you want to go back and uh in the catalog of finding peaks episodes i’ve interviewed joanna conti with vista research and conquer addiction multiple times on outcome studies and one of the things she highlighted within that those discussions was that hey everybody believes they’re doing a great job okay proof in the pudding let’s do this research one year later the data comes in and people are like oh there’s something wrong with the data there’s no longer to really know because we’re way we’re at 90 outcomes this is stating 33 that can’t be possible uh in that regard but the what the outcomes really require enforce if you’re not going to give up on them in that moment is to have that introspection and that insights okay what are we doing that’s not meeting these needs or the patient demand like when we say we’re a stabilization model

we should be stabilizing people in some considerable way of things and not having people leave treatment that are unstable or equally as you know dysregulated or disrupted as when they came to peaks in the first place so outcomes for me and participating in them though it’s challenging information when you first hear it is to take a look inwards and think okay how can we get these things right and you know in you know 2020 to 2021 we went through some very disruptive periods we’re looking at you know ama rates within the covet you know periods around 20 25 in there i mean that’s incredible there’s a lot of downward pressure right we can’t get off campus we can’t you know bring meetings in-house we’re doing exact wild executive you know directives from the you know governor policies orders right in that regard of seven days on 14 days seven days on seven days off 14 days on 14 days off we got rvs on so i mean all kinds of wild stuff that we’re trying to do to like account for all of that right but we don’t want to live at those ama rights it’s not supportive of our responsibility to the people that we treat and ultimately we’ve arrived at 7.8 percent is the current running number just a little bit above 92 percent of all patients stay through generally a 30 to 45 day curriculum and so out of those missed opportunities or all those challenges that we went through provides that introspection and allows us to put staff in place to actually really start nurturing what we’re talking about if you’re going to do stabilization it feels like we should have at least an a minus at the very least as far as who’s becoming stable within the process absolutely um so that might just be an at you guys statement you probably pretty much invested in that as much as i am um but you know going back we did uh at the beginning pre covered january of 2020 jason a little bit before clinton’s time but he’s a dare to he’s a dare to lead guy now in our world um we did the dare to lead training with uh mav o’neal who’s a wonderful professional um in the uh in our industry and community and out of that you read these leadership books most of them dare to lead podcasts mave o’neil in this particular sense when you become a a company culture of 50 plus employees there’s this significant shift in responsibility and we were doing that right around the 50 employee you know kind of benchmark and it’s easy to pass off as like i don’t know what people are talking about like you know 36.50 whatever the number is it’s just you know input but something about popping above that number really started taking a focus from a manager standpoint of like actually don’t have time to be all the answers for clients right i have to have time as well to have answers for our employee demographic and just curious you know from your lens jason what it was like to kind of pop over that 50 employee you know personnel and then what that was like is a shift because for me it certainly felt like something shifted and now we’re taking care of kind of two departments patients and staff now in a much different way yeah i think

you know completely from my perspective it feel it feels like when you when we popped over somewhere around that 50 threshold it did require attention on taking care of our staff and you know when we were smaller culture like we all just kind of we knew each other well enough or we would all go do something together or whatever and we could just kind of nurture each other uh in that same organic fashion that we were providing this kind of grassroots care to people but somewhere around that phase like i think to your point brandon like you can’t keep track of all of that like you have to begin to form those systems too of like how do we care for one another and how do um how do we begin to focus on the on the care providers rather than just providing all of the care and that’s certainly been a big part of my own personal growth too um i don’t get nearly as much time with clients as i used to and um and that was a big shift to be honest with you and to begin to to empower clinicians rather than just doing the work has been that’s been a significant shift so i think it just feels like there’s these layers that begin to develop and um and i’ve had to really think about what it is i do so that i can hopefully pass it along to other people too rather than kind of just doing it all

wow yeah i mean i i wasn’t there yeah right now

clinical culture is a challenging one at least in that hindsight perspective for me because lpc says i can treat mental health and addiction right lac says i can treat addiction and then out of that it’s like okay well then you’re equipped with the tools and the skill sets to actually deliver services within this setting and so it is like hey i’m gonna take these titles i’m gonna put it in this chair i’m gonna put the person on my website now like go and do the things and then people turn around and they’re like i don’t i don’t unders what do you want me to do with the stabilization thing this client’s like popping up over here you know and what’s going on and um and out of that that for me is like this significant increase in responsibility to staff lpcs and lacs sure i can do the documentation we can build for these services and i can come at this but at the same time like teach me how to do this absolutely teach me how to do this well who do i communicate with when things are going wrong when things are going well you know whatever the case might be and especially as we grow as an organization i think we’ve talked about it more from a leadership perspective it’s like how do we give them more you know tools and assets uh in that regard and especially as a growing organization i think old you know kind of peaks was stick the person in and you know kind of hope they do well but um that can be pretty destabilizing for an individual especially around the intensity sometimes that we experience and so putting in an actual sort of or building out sort of an education platform for staff in that regard becomes more imperative in a way that i never thought you know four years ago that we’d be engaged in anything like this because i was holding on to those titles and i think that’s an important message for family systems and our industry to appreciate here in the background is that just because somebody has a title behind their name doesn’t necessarily mean that they are best suited for that environment of care that they’re in and that requires its own nurturing yeah i think what i was thinking about as you were saying all that we we are on boarding um a couple of new clinicians amber and lindsey and um

you know what they’re used to is walking into an organization and being handed a big caseload and go do a group and figure it out and and i think what what i think makes peaks really cool is like we take a lot of time to orient clinicians to our caseloads or to our group our curriculum and also um kind of how we maneuver individuals through our care we take a lot of time to do that like more time than i’ve ever seen but we i think we value so much the culture that we have and the care we are providing um our clients and we we can’t have a disparity in care like it has to be it has to be integris like it has to be kind of one clinical team and we can’t have 14 or 15 individuals running around doing their own thing like because like you said you get these degrees or whatever and you have all these ideas and then a lot of the decisions we have to make as clinicians we’re not really taught and it isn’t necessarily in uh a cbt or dbt model like there’s a lot of judgment involved and a lot of critical thinking involved i would say well when you’re a small company like really your the program is based on the individual talent of the counselors like that’s what creates your program clinically but as you get bigger that just isn’t a thing i mean you have to be able to bring people in from well one you want to have a staff that represents the client demographic that you serve so you’re going to have to have people from different backgrounds different walks of life different experiences different educations and but at the same time you want to preserve that culture you want to preserve that’s the peak’s essence which requires training right it requires a system you have to have processes in place and as much as we invest on clinician investing clinicians on the front end i mean i still think that we don’t do enough but we also do twice as much as most organizations do but that just goes to show that most healthcare organizations particularly behavioral healthcare organizations do not spend a lot of time investing in their clinicians you know when you guys were talking about that sort of threshold that 50 person threshold earlier i think when you hit that threshold uh it’s the company and the employees that’s when the family vibes starts to change and all of the sudden it becomes a company vibe you’re not a part of a family at work you’re a part of a company at work

and in that moment there’s this really critical piece of uh cultural preservation that thank god peaks got right we were able to preserve that that family and feel and that that culture of support that has um i think actually only gotten stronger as we’ve gotten bigger but again it’s because we have this investment in the people that we bring on which is goes to your earlier point brandon that at some as you get bigger you have to invest equally in your employees as your clients like they they are become one and the same like that investment as a leader it has to be almost the it’s almost a one-for-one you know because in the end if you’re if your clinical staff or your medical staff your residential staff doesn’t feel supported and doesn’t feel invested in how in the world are they going to meet the needs of the clients that are there if we haven’t met their needs totally i’m going to you know we’ve talked about this a lot in the leadership meetings and i had you guys kind of put your heads back and listened to a five-minute introduction from this book tribe by the author stephen junger just quick background for individuals listening if you go back to our dr stephen elardi episodes the depression cure he talks a lot about tribalism that in in the sense that our biology as human beings is not necessarily equipped for contemporary society if you catalog uh our biology back into tribal cultures he’s looking at zero rates of you know depression whether it’s himalayan tribes american indian tribes uh even the amish is a good kind of contemporary tribal culture that exists that has nearly zero rates of depression anxiety so the thought from there is right like um we’re not biologically suited for this but in that regard catalog all that go back check it out i think these are all great reads as well too but i want to highlight just a quote out of it that says that i’ve shared with you guys multiple times now that uh human mind human beings do not mind hardship in fact they thrive on it what they do mind is not feeling necessary and american culture has perfected the art of making people feel not necessary and that resonates with me certainly at the level of you know patient care but also you know when it comes to employees our time currency on this planet is very limited uh we don’t get a lot of time we don’t know when we’re going to wake up not wake up car accident or otherwise or these awful things can happen in the world to us and out of that to me it brings to light like we’re asking people to give up a great deal of their time 40 hours a week 60 hours a week 80 hours when it’s necessary you know whatever the case might be in an hour time allotment and i further want to say that you know you can pay people you know as much as you want but at the same time that’s not going to ensure that cultural you know transaction and so mainly when i’m saying kind of this bridge to the cultural aspect of running a company that’s so pivotal going from family to an organization that’s big enough where people start to not know each other’s names is how do we ensure that each individual within the organization feels heard from hey this is my world on the outside and this is what’s important to me to also i’m trading off some of this world so i can come work with you guys and here’s what’s important in my professional environment but ultimately while everybody’s doing their job they’re not just a component of utility toward it right collecting a paycheck i’m just here to collect this paycheck peace just needs me to document this note so they can get paid as an organization and those things but to actually have people feel like they matter to the project to our mission to save lives towards the vision of quality of care that they’re actually participating in something greater themselves but not at the height it doesn’t stop at hyperbole that they actually feel that sort of tribalism within our own company culture how do you guys see that as being important within our organization well it’s it’s fundamental i think and it is everything and uh um you know another word we’ve been talking about a lot lately is transparency and i think obviously a hundred percent transparency isn’t appropriate but as transparent as we can be and as

you know i certainly try to be as much of just me jason friesman with my team as i can be and not um not anything other than that and i think that that feels like a piece of the old peaks that was good and came through is just being having that genuine um approach

i had another newer clinician um a few weeks ago he he circled around me yesterday and told me what this meant to him but i was just like listen man you belong here like you don’t feel it yet but you belong here and um and i think it that speaks to that necessary the necessity piece um because none of us can do this alone and making sure people see clearly um their necessity and it’s a tricky balance because like running a company too like we need to be able to replace people or move people in different positions or or sometimes people just have to move for their own life circumstances so it’s a delicate balance to to be like you are unique but i i certainly clinically too um what i tell clinicians is i want them to be them i want absolutely i want you to be you i don’t want you to be a little frisma or a little freud or whatever like i just want you to be you and that’s where um that’s where you’re going to be most valuable and i think

i would hope that helps too yeah i think we’ve created a tribe of authenticity you know i think it’s that’s our culture yeah um we can’t replace people when they leave like because they’re unique and individual but we bring on the next person and we look at them and we hear them and we celebrate them and we utilize the unique skills and attributes that they bring and then we integrate that into the culture um like we talk about company culture but company culture is just people it’s the people that we have you know and if we allow people to show up to work um in a way where they get to just be genuinely themselves like man like we’re we’re we’re miles ahead of the next organization and people at that point start to feel necessary because they get to show up to work as themselves and so there’s um a continuity and a congruence that i think you don’t really get in a whole lot of work environments um yeah but i think that yeah we’re definitely uh tribe peaks and it’s it and it is just a tribe full of unique and amazing and diverse voices yeah we’re pretty lucky yeah absolutely fortunate and um but before we conclude for sure i think you know one of the things that uh you know i’ve i’ve talked about it a lot on the show all of our websites say all the same things and the reality of a lot of our websites is we’re talking about hope as the reality if you come to peaks there’s hope if you go here there’s hope if you go here there’s hope one of the things that you know we’ve been talking about recently something far more challenging is is the reality of our business we are in health care not everybody makes it there are 107 000 opioid deaths last year uh in that regard never mind all of the other drugs and alcohol mental health suicidal suicidality all of that stuff that is encompassing of the individuals that we treat and out of that reality um we have the uh gifts of being able to provide treatment to individuals to give that hope and provide those recovery journeys and at the same time there’s this sort of underlying burden differently than like you know a snickers bar factory right at the end of the day where there’s not human lives involved with it and out of that reality um you know just a few short weeks ago you know a friend of peace recovery centers passed away um unforeseen and unexpectedly but i want to talk about that because that’s a very real thing that we do here speaking of the responsibility of an organization like peaks those promises we make on the front end phone calls family systems or otherwise um we know that reality exists you know within the background and at the same time not only nurturing family systems when they go through events like that but also the hit on our staff and it almost seems unexpected at times right where um you know different individuals can provide just extraordinary weights to the organization and how we feel about those experiences and i just wanted to talk a little bit about the tough things that are always talked about in leading a healthcare company you know like ours because it is a reality of this business it’s the reality of hospital systems it’s the reality of um you know really anybody who’s treating anybody who has some underlying illness on the other side of it this is just the way it unfortunately turns out sometimes but overall right um not just the support of the systems and the family and being transparent about that potential reality but also um how we you know kind of approach staff and i think this last few weeks has taught us like we’re just maybe missing a little bit of something around that staff aspect and uh i think we’ve wrapped our arms around it in a really healthy way i think we’ve talked about it out loud the same little speech i gave here i gave on our interdisciplinary you know team meeting on this last tuesday in that way but i guess what it’s caused again is just back to that introspection language of there’s something more we could be doing here to support staff and also something more we could be doing to not dismantle hope for the family system but provide more uh realities for the family system that we’re treating that this is life or death and so we got to like team up together and really lock arms together to nurture this because this is one of the realities of you know our situation and but you know going back to the staff side of things um you know what has your guys’s experience been like over the past few weeks of walking through something like that i i think we’ve done a great job of uh letting our staff know it’s okay to feel sad it’s okay to feel overwhelmed it’s okay to feel hopeless it’s okay to feel exasperated or tired or whatever like i i think that creating that culture um you know oftentimes a lot of our meetings are about gratitude and all the things that we’re grateful for and all of that but if we also don’t kind of build a container to say it’s also okay to grieve and to feel uh less than good then i think then then we’re just cheerleaders and we’re not living in reality i think and so i think we’ve done a phenomenal job of walking through some of the hardships because we celebrate our victories for sure and we grieve our losses though as well

items i think um you know we have these like chief level titles right and i think part of the responsibility of a title like that is really being able to hear um when somebody tells you that you didn’t do enough that you’re actually not doing a good enough job in that you have to do better i think our instinct is to try to fight that and to say oh no no but look at all the things that we’re doing well focus focus on this not on this but in the end like we have to focus on this you know we um i think we support our employees amazingly well and we provide them an opportunity to come in and be genuine and to to feel all of the feels without shame or without uh retribution or what what have you um at the same time because we have we ask our staff to show up genuinely that means that there’s an element of vulnerability that inevitably follows which makes us as a team more susceptible to loss and i mean we’re peaks isn’t perfect you know we never have been and we never will be but we will never stop trying and um i don’t care if it’s um if somebody that we’ve lost or even just a client that wasn’t successful in the program every single employee feels that like they own that and they feel that and they carry that with them because i think we’ve done a really good job of at least within company culture reiterating that this is life and death i mean our mission is to save lives and when we don’t when we don’t meet our mission you know people die um so i mean i don’t mean that to sound somber but i i think it there’s just um for me and i think for the three of us in this room like our commitment to just always doing better and to always trying to to to be able to support our employees in whatever way possible and knowing that if there’s one thing i would want our employees to know and our teams to know it’s that we will never stop trying to get better um whether for the people that work for us or for our patients as soon as we stop trying to be better is we should just shut yeah i always share with you guys you know as well too you know i know how to do mediocrity there’s a way to make exceptional to use this foul language in an industry of healthcare uh you know there’s there are ways to make a great deal of money uh in this world and through these types of platforms and my commitment to the organization is to die on the sort of quality of care so what i mean by that is if insurance premiums continue to lower but we are committed to this quality project i would rather die on the sword of losing the company to in state that we were part of something bigger we tried to do something significant we tried to do what you know dr perry and the boy was raised as the dog book talks about you arrive at this quality level now expand it now create greater access to it what does that look like and it’s seemingly in healthcare systems it’s actually a lot harder to expand quality than it is to expand access uh in that regard and there’s these trade-offs and i think you know for us wholeheartedly we’re just committed to quality uh each and every day and that’s that’s our pursuit and that’s how we go from 12 employees to 111 for the same amount of beds uh at the end of the day um and that’s how we’ll go from 100 to 11 to employees to 200 11 employees but we’ll do it we’ll do it intentionally and we’re not going to sacrifice anything along the way it’s it takes us as long as it takes us but we will get there yeah and before we kind of take this out and and talk just a little bit more of you know with gratitude for our employees our leaders and so forth you know i’m just curious for the three of us just to talk out loud about kind of our biggest takeaway of being a leader in an organization and i think this is a shout out to those you know ceos chief operating officers clinical officers and so forth maybe in smaller company cultures uh moving forward you know the thing that i think i’ve gotten right as a leader if i’ve gotten anything right is you know whether it’s an employee holding me accountable whether it’s a patient holding me accountable whether it’s a family system whether it’s this industry holding me accountable i’ve been far more successful in my career path when i take a moment to take one step back and nurture my responsibility take accountability for where i’m at take responsibility in the situation because with these titles we are absolutely responsible for each and everything and then come back in uh you know to the general work environment with solutions and that sort of thing renee brown talks about in dare to lead 95 percent of the time spent on the problem 5 on the solution and when we feel like we’re doing great things and we get hit with hard things it’s like we want to be reactionary and solution focused in those moments but that reflection period and that absorbing of responsibility taking a day or two and then taking it back to the teams has been pivotal i think in my personal success as a leader in the organization but for the overall organization of vulnerability and preservation of that so curious about maybe it’s the same maybe it’s different but something that’s been powerful from you know your leadership perspective that we give to the viewers as a takeaway

man i i feel like

first of all um you know we have a core value of being curious and i know i always have to seek first to understand anything before i’m trying to be understood um because i know i don’t read things perfectly and sometimes people just have to explain things to me or um or you know maybe when one of us isn’t in the room things go differently so like i have to ask and be curious um

and so i’ve definitely learned that um i’ve also certainly learned i can’t demand um anything from from my team that i’m not willing to do or offer myself i can’t demand a team to be emotionally available for one another and for clients and all that if i am detached or um not around so those things matter a lot and i think i think maybe it’s not quite what you’re saying but i i do know like always my first thought too is like okay what um where’s my responsibility in whatever situation and then um i think i learned from clinton too like okay what’s the operational solution and instead of going at people like let’s look at the process first that’s where i would start

wow um i think that in my experience

no leadership team works no organization works if there isn’t safety and if there isn’t trust and i think that i over the course of my career i think i’ve spent more time than i ever thought i would just trying to foster safety and trust because if you have those two things then you have an environment of creativity of risk of exploration but also of support and compassion and empathy um it’s i i think that it’s one of the things that i greatly underestimated going into probably my first career and have i am so grateful that i’ve learned and been able to and that when i stepped into peaks i think it’s one of the reasons why i was so drawn to it um i mean you’re a very charismatic interview and you have your five inch shorts on there’s a whole lot there’s a whole lot going for peaks at the time but there it felt safe and it felt i felt like this was a place where i can like really stretch and really push myself and create an environment that other people can do that too

appreciate it appreciate those insights you know for me you know i’ve you guys know me i’ll listen to any books read all the books use all the books avid reader but i will take those in and be like we’re changing the company tomorrow because look what i’ve read right calm down brandon yeah calm down but generally speaking one of the great books that was ever recommended to me was by you jason the advantage by patrick lincione and he asks in the book without cataloging the whole book here around cultural development like what is it worth to you as an organization to you as a leader and in reading that simple passage on top of all of the gifts he gives us in the book for being leaders in this world i thought to me it’s worth everything now

and so that’s what we do i feel like that’s my whole job each and every day at peaks as a leader in an organization especially a health care system uphold the mission uphold the vision and definitely ensure the core values were always operating within the organization and now the ceo title thing gets really simplified into something meaningful greater than myself and it’s the project that i’m advancing uh each and every day and with that as best as i can here i think i can move through this and we had a pretty emotional interdisciplinary team meeting this week for a variety of different reasons but i’m grateful for the leaders around me clint you were gone for two days cried like a little baby in your absence during the interdisciplinary team meeting right you know just taking two days off and you know in that regard that’s to me how close we are your office right next to mine you know hearing each other talk back and forth through the walls all those sort of things and the meetings and the nuances of it um you know there’s something special here and there’s something special within this room and what you’ve provided jason and how you’ve stepped up into this greater company culture in a way that it’s probably a lot safer for probably the three of us to do the things prior to stepping up into these moments uh in that regard and certainly would eliminate a lot of you know fear maybe anxiety at least for myself uh in that regard but you know dr ryan our chief medical officer rel director of nursing rachel tapp director of iop uh office manager jennifer esparza my wife human resource director in that regard as well too um all aaron on our admissions line i mean wholeheartedly what a future leader in this world not just uh within peaks but i mean her her future is bright in this regard our residential directors sarah brandon cara uh in that regard as well too who show up wholeheartedly in the direction of patient care each and every day paul eschen our financial guy nobody likes to talk financials in healthcare but it matters especially when your financial guy has the same heart as the company culture and wants to continue to add the next best staff to the operations that ensures its longevity um and without cataloging of course the entire you know 100 other employees that exist in our organization you know just a big shout out to them as well too that uh we always hear you we’re listening and we’re always trying to strive to do better on your part because to me if we get this cultural staff dynamic correct patient care just follows and it feels that simple at the end of the day when we’re disrupted the patients experience it when we’re related they’re elated you know there’s this transference thing that’s constantly going on and so the nurturing the staff side to me always has this positive ongoing reduction in against mental advice discharges and i think we’re seeing that in real time and would just encourage any other company culture out there to take it seriously especially at that 50 employee mark because you’re going from a family to a much bigger thing and missing that mark i think can be quite catastrophic in a really big way and we were fortunate enough to avoid it uh at the same time i think we could feel it simmering at times uh as well too so i want to give my gratitude for the staff there before i take it out you guys want to throw out some shout outs as well too yeah i mean i i i do want to shout out the clinical team and uh you know i really i i look at them as uh i don’t know we have we have our clinical meeting on wednesday afternoons and i just look at that meeting as sacred ground and just where uh where our culture as a as a company um i think it’s where the interface with the clients comes with the culture of the company

and i mean they just show up time and time again difficult times in their own lives difficult times with clients showing up and uh definitely giving it their all and um

i don’t know i just couldn’t be more proud of of a team and i’m humbled uh by the work they do every day so shout out to clinical you guys rock

wow um i think one of the great things about my position is i basically just work with all of the leaders you know on all the teams i get i have direct contact and um so in in having that contact i get to hear about everybody you know like i i’m literally on we have our chat message platform where all of the communication for the company goes through and i am on every single chat not because i’m a control freak sometimes maybe a little bit but really so i can just see people like i to see everybody i mean there’s there’s no one team that can exist without the other there’s no one position that can exist without the other every single person that we have is vital and amazing and um i got to take two days off and really just sort of watch it all happen and it was absolutely breathtaking in the best way possible so i’m just grateful for the tribe i’m grateful for the entire tribe and i’m grateful to be a part of it so thank you for bringing me on yeah absolutely

i’m just grateful that i have talent like this on my team because i cannot do it alone certainly and you guys keep all my tangents at bay so that company culture doesn’t have to experience them except for the viewers on these episodes uh you know and taking this out i think i think there are two individuals that i’m trying to touch base with out here one family systems to hear that there is at least here at peaks recovery centers there’s a lot of thought going into this each and every day and it’s not uh hyperbolic thought there are meetings processes systems constant conversations push back we got pin cushions we take thoughts ideas put in and pull those things out at some future date you know to actually implement them as an organization uh you know patients come us and tell us what they could see you know being better for them in the future i think our responsibility is to respond to those types of things and family systems desperate for that hope love and guidance from an organization isn’t always talked about on the front end and i just want you know family systems to hear kind of at least at a at a high level some of how of our thinking goes about in delivering these services and some of the complexities with it as well too 111 people plus 36 patients a lot of people to kind of know where everybody’s going at any given time and then i think professionals out there as well too um you know a lot of us especially here in the state of colorado have seen us grow from that 12 employee standpoint to where we’re at now and it was not a smooth you know linear journey by any means it had wild ripples within it and learning experiences that we went through but the moment i think we took seriously what it means to be a leader and to really engage in that and and implement a leadership meeting to talk about this how we’re going to nurture this how we’re going to implement these core values all of that sort of stuff mattered and to me you know some of these books ask you know do you think you’re above these things are these two foo foo for you in regards to black and white logistics that you know maybe work i don’t know in an engineering firm or something i don’t don’t hand me out their engineers if you guys are loving on each other and uh doing vulnerability and dare to lead stuff at the end of the day but um it matters and the more energy that you put into that the greater reward you’ll experience on this side and by reward i mean a greater customer experience and a greater appreciation for the services that you promised on the front end in that regard so take responsibility reach out to us use us as a platform and maybe as a guiding post if you’re back there you can all reach out to me you know that my friends here in the state of colorado but otherwise signing off another episode of finding peaks here finding peaks at peaksrecovery.com send us your ideas thoughts insights happy to extend on this conversation in the future follow us on the tick tocks the facebooks the instagrams the twitters all the things we’re on all the things and at the end of the day we just wholeheartedly love and appreciate the opportunity to do this each and every week and to just talk about the thing that we love doing and grateful for all of your attention on the other side of this camera and the audio podcast side of things so until next time love y’all

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Episode 65Celebrating 14 Years of RecoveryWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/KoM-ktLZxiYListen NowDescriptionIn this episode we are celebrating our founder, Chris’s 14 years in recovery! The conversation shines a light on what recovery looks like now in 2022 and how much it has developed throughout the decades.

Talking Points1. What does the recovery process look like now in 2022? 2. How recovery can relate to everyone, even without struggling with substance abuse. 3. How our Jason sees this shift happening throughout the recovery industry. 4. A message to those who are struggling Quotes

“I really believe this is all about mental health, and I want everyone to come and join this recovery party…We are all on the same team.” – Chris Burns, Founder

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 65 Transcriptshey everybody and welcome to another
amazing episode of finding peaks yours
truly president and founder chris burns
i got my grateful recovering co-host
jason friesma chief clinical officer
welcome to the show jay good to be here
welcome grateful to have you we got a
bunch of chiefs and directors in the
house today um we have aaron grenny our
admissions director um phenomenal
professional but even better human let’s
go
man behind the mystery this is joseph
villanueva he is our chief growth
officer here at peaks recovery and he
and his wife and a couple other people
coover um are responsible for putting
out all of this material all of the
multimedia all the business and growth
and development joseph and his team are
responsible for and we just couldn’t be
more honored to have him on the show he
supports peaks
just as much or more than anybody else
big heart for this work
and another person person in active
recovery so um today is my birthday
episode um i am celebrating 14 years of
recovery um what i like to say about
that should
and really what it’s been for me um
is it’s been an opportunity to not cope
with substances for a tremendous amount
of time
and i’m really really grateful for that
but i wanted to bring up in this show
and talk about just the recovery process
in 2022 differently than even when i got
here 14 years ago in 2008
and i’ve talked about this a lot on the
show and i think it’s really important
to bring up is you know in 2008 when
treatment programs were providing young
people aftercare plans
it really was kind of a sticky note
opportunity it was a 90 90 find a
therapist good luck but you’re better
off getting into a 12-step group to help
build a community
and so that’s what i did i had a really
awesome process in the early stages of
alcoholics anonymous but i was met with
a tremendous amount of hard edges early
on
and the hard edges didn’t matter as much
to me because what the 12-step group did
for me was it was a family of choice
that i had never had and so i really
wanted to be a part of this family
and they wanted me to be a part of it
and that felt really good because i
hadn’t felt like i had been a part of
anything for a long time so i was
willing to do whatever these men
suggested
you know one of the sayings in a a is
if somebody has what you want you’ll do
what they do
right if you’re willing if you want what
they have you’re willing to do what they
do and my first sponsor sat down with me
at 90 days sober and i was using an
anti-craving medication
called suboxone and i sat down with my
first sponsor and he said
my second sponsor excuse me my first
sponsor and he said if you’re on
suboxone you’re not sober
and that is one of the um most widely
used drugs today for opiate use and
early stages of recovery and we’re
finding a tremendous amount of efficacy
for that drug up and into two three four
five years of recovery
but yet i was fed kind of a different
message and my fear is that
our young people and our mature people
are still getting fed a message that’s
incongruent
to where we are at today in 2022 with
all of the resources that we have
and so i wanted to bring you all on the
show because each and every one of you
has an individualized approach to your
authentic process and i just want to
touch base on kind of your early
experience we talked about it a little
bit before the show how it kind of feels
very small to start but if we’re going
to have really long standing and
sustainable recovery we have to open
that up and create some broadness about
it and so
i want to check in with you first aaron
because we both
found recovery in a small town in
northern arizona where there’s more
treatment centers per capita than
anywhere else in the world more aaa
meetings per capita than anywhere else
in the united states last i checked and
so the 12-step culture there if you
didn’t want to get into 12-step
you probably didn’t have a lot of
friends and so i just want to talk about
your experience in the early stages what
the 12-step meant to you and maybe where
you’re at today with respect to
your longer-term recovery
and how that matters as a professional
yeah
so definitely when i when i first went
into this this small town in northern
arizona it was essentially the the
foundation of getting sober there was
some clinical approach but i say this
often
i was um not really i didn’t do much
therapy really at all there were some
groups that were helpful but really at
its at its core the 12 steps was um was
clearly the basis of how you got sober
um and there was this large community of
people who all knew each other everyone
was friends everyone helped each other
and i certainly had that same um thought
going into it like i really want to be
included in this i want to be the cool
cool person and get my chips like
everybody else and it honestly um it was
really great it helped me so much
because there was this
built-in group of people who
knew what i had experienced and who
um you know didn’t judge my my past
mistakes and and that was huge for me to
feel
so immediately accepted by such a large
group of people who kind of shared this
this commonality um
and so really for the first probably
at least 12 months you know two years
three years but certainly while i was in
this town um it was really it was
ingrained in everything in my life and
the sayings and the steps and all of
these things were um
absolutely at its core what kind of ran
my life
and i i actually remember thinking
at a certain point
i was like i feel like i’m running i
feel like i am
trying to sprint as fast and as far away
as i can from this
this past experience and this person
that i was and i was probably a couple
years in i was like i’m a little bit
tired i’m kind of tired of
trying to cover all these things all the
time like oh don’t forget you had to go
to meetings and don’t forget to
turn yourself over and like all these
things and i was like what i really want
and i know that this is a part of the
program is just a collective like peace
and i want to feel
like i’m okay um
and so at that point i kind of shifted a
little bit from the foundation of what
got me sober into what felt right to me
and that was having a community um
continuing to go to therapy and
maintaining medications honestly and
those are the things in my life today i
have six years sober seven next month
yeah yeah and you know
thank you
um
and so at this point that’s what i’m
doing like i i have the exact same
friendships a lot of the same
friendships that i had at that time and
they will be in my life forever i truly
believe that and that’s the gift i think
of the 12-step community is this group
of people that you really connect with
but i also go to therapy and i also take
medication so um it’s been it’s been
such a journey to watch it evolve and
i’m really grateful for everything i
experienced throughout my process but
yeah and i love that you said that too
that was really progressive like when i
get my seven years next month
you would you would have been up you
wouldn’t say that
because you’re not guaranteed next month
no but i actually believe you know in
your heart of hearts that you’re going
to be sober next yeah i do wow yeah that
is interesting i love that and that’s
kind of what i get through having this
holistic view of recovery and and having
a full recovery one day at a time i most
certainly believe in the one day at a
time
absolutely but i can tell you next week
that i’m going to be sober yes and i
don’t have to sell myself short on that
and so i think in a way that early onset
experience and alcoholics anonymous it
has a tremendous amount of efficacy to
keeping you a little bit small
and i think it’s in an effort to create
humility but it also detracts from
opportunity
but i love how you said that because you
wouldn’t have said that in a 12-step
group they’d be like no no no very true
yeah nothing 14 years doesn’t matter if
unless you get 14 years in a day
and there are those stories of people
who get a long period of time and they
relapse and that’s kind of what propels
this internal fear but at this point in
my life i feel resolved and peaceful and
calm and confident in who i am in my
recovery so that feels
great yeah that’s absolutely a beautiful
thing i kind of had that experience
in 12 step of what as well as like i’m
going to a meeting every day
but oftentimes the dialogue is is often
about substances
and war stories and things like that and
so i found myself even though i would
let the meeting know that i was happy
joyous and free i found myself
ruminating a lot on thoughts about
substances and glorifying it’s because i
really hadn’t attended to the root right
you know and when i’m able to repair
that route a little bit to your point it
i can have that longevity and i can have
that peace and i can have that
comfortability
that you talk about so
thank you for that yeah of course um i
want to check in with joseph too because
we were sitting down just a few weeks
ago
and this is somebody who’s
been working with peaks for a number of
years probably about five or six five
somewhere around there yeah f5 yeah and
he’s just developed a tremendous passion
i think it’s always been there but it’s
certainly been exacerbated since he
started working with peaks and for
somebody who doesn’t work
client facing i don’t know if you’ll
find a more passionate
and big-hearted individual for the
people that we serve
other than joseph and now i’ve had the
the opportunity to sit with him and meet
with you on a weekly basis or every
couple weeks for a number of weeks now
and i was sitting with him the other day
and what brings this up for me is i’m
i’ve been married for 10 years
and my wife has
she’s been to survivor she’s been to
grief week she’s been in a lot of
therapy she’s done the 12 steps for
adult child
she’s done all this stuff she’s in
bi-weekly therapy but for whatever
reason throughout my recovery i’ve
always felt like she’s been on the
sideline because she wasn’t a
substance abuser and i was sitting with
joseph a few weeks ago and i was just
watching kind of this growth happen in
front of me and i was like man
you’re in recovery um because if you
take a coping mechanism a substance use
disorder and they cope and then you take
i um perfectionism or tuning my world
out or isolation it isolation
isolationism isolation this one’s right
that works yeah
um if if the substance user lives to 90
they’re in the same spot at the end of
their life anxious all alone depressed
and disconnected and so i think we don’t
give enough praise to folks that are
working on the sidelines to better
themselves one day at a time and i i
really believe this is all about mental
health it has nothing to do with
substances so i want everybody in the
world to come join this recovery party
um and joseph’s one of them and so i
just want to check in with you joseph is
like
what was that like to hear
that you’re actually a part of this
thing this really magical and beautiful
thing that you love so much that you’re
actually on the same team it was almost
like you like went poof it was like able
to settle because it allowed you to be a
part of something that i i know that you
love and value so much
yeah so the conversation for me was was
pretty um meaningful to say the least
and it was a revelation that i think
i’ll carry with me
really close to my heart for everything
that we do and continue to do together
as a
you know
as an organization and all the projects
that i’m involved in um because i think
i felt what you were
talking about that your wife feels
kind of on the sidelines really good
supporters um
but it didn’t quite feel right to uh
place yourself on the sideline because
part of you feels connected
doesn’t know how to truly associate it
and for me in that conversation you
brought me to the
to the revelation that unified us all of
us
and that was really powerful for me
because i i saw how
myself and everybody else that i come
across and in the staff and
the the people that are in the program
clients
we’re all eye to eye we’re on the same
level and we’re all in recovery and it
meant it brought me so much closer to
the entire situation
and that was really powerful i think we
were talking about i was sharing with
you
for me the recovery is recovering
from perfectionism
and the way that i observe myself and
one thing that it seems like is a caring
thread or a thread that goes through all
these
prior conversations that i’ve had aaron
shared you shared some of your story
with me and then uh listening to sylvan
on a few episodes back
there’s this moment of
you arrive to the point where i think
aaron you said i’m just tired
of chris’s terminology white-knuckling
the situation and i felt the same way i
was so critical and hard on myself and
i was never enough and always reaching
and then tired and that’s that was my
moment of like
all right let me look for a book that
can probably help me and then that led
me to conversations with people like
chris
and to therapy and and you transition
from that
rigidity
something that can keep you on a path
but very rigid i think silvan was using
that word and i really liked that he was
like aa can be really good
for that rigidity
that a lot of people need and he
admitted to it i think
i needed that
but then you get to that point where
you transition
and you need something more
enter in treatment
and i was like man such a cool balance
how they how they can
be hand in hand i think
i started learning the values
of um something like aa
and how that can get you to a certain
checkpoint
and then you inevitably need to
walk into a program that has the
capabilities of really wrapping
themselves around you like peaks and
what what people like jason do and and
like
the organization as a whole really can
provide is is uh something much beyond
that rigidity so
um
full stop yeah no that’s beautiful man
and really well explained and um
i want to be able today
for anybody
to see themselves in my story
so i don’t want to talk about for me
chris burns last year i’m talking about
sobriety time this is it
because i want jason to see himself in
my story he can’t see himself in my
sobriety story
right you can see himself in my mental
health story my trauma survivor story my
adult child you know all of the stuff
and i want to make sure that each and
every person that is thinking about
picking up the phone to call peeks that
i can sit down with them and like they
can find themselves in my story and i
think for so many years you know 1935
and on and 12 steps has been such a
great thing for this world
but i think it’s detracted a little bit
from the opportunity we have to bring
more people into
this space
and i really want to just continue to um
broaden our horizons broaden the
conversation um and ask others like
jason like how do you feel hearing this
type of stuff because you’re someone who
quite frankly man was in recovery before
me
you know
chris one of my favorite stories you
tell is uh you and i met at a restaurant
like two blocks from here
uh with with bobby and then somebody
else
and like
you told me i think just last year that
like
you guys were like how much time does he
have yeah how much time does he have and
i think you’re like
that
mommy’s like nah 20 alcohol for sure i’m
like oh like this guy is on the yeah
this is like 15 years ago yeah to be
clear i’ve never
read it i just want to be clear about
that but
um
but i
you know i think um
as you guys were talking i just um
i think about
uh the amount of work we do and actually
a long time ago when i was working with
um
adolescents and even young adults when
we were a young adult program i actually
used to tell parents this when we just
worked with with young adults
and we worked with them for like four to
six months i’m like you’re going to
bring in an immature
our program and do all the examining of
their life they’re going to be more
mature than their cohort
because it is a gift to do that
examining of one’s life and you know for
me personally um
i certainly started as a counselor
before i started any sort of counseling
uh i was that guy uh this was a long
time ago don’t get me wrong
um
back when i was working under freud but
no i’m kidding uh but but in all
seriousness like
i had some life events occur some around
the health of my son
that just actually had a nice effect a
really horrible effect of like bringing
up um things from my childhood that i
hadn’t thought about in a long time and
i didn’t realize how they were affecting
me to the to the day
and started to do somatic experience
work and i did i actually got with a
group of guys every week
um and did that examining of my own life
and and
um
kind of breaking the the link from
how the past was affecting my presence
and i think
um it was with that work that i think i
finally was able to get
you know to where i am today and be able
to sit
uh and be present with people and and uh
hold that space and
and not be run by anger or other
emotions and that sort of thing um
in in i think to aaron’s point too like
it did take community it wasn’t an a
community um
i’ve been a counselor since 1999 and
i used to get asked a lot it doesn’t
happen at all really anymore but like
why do you work so much with addictions
because i i always just found that
that’s where i was most comfortable
um and
you know because similar like people
would think like oh you’re in recovery
from something i’m like bro like i’m as
normy as it comes pretty much but like
um
but i but i can relate to the pain and
the depravity of it and i think what
always drew me to it is like
people who are kind of at their bottom
with uh
with addiction man they know uh that
they could die at any moment
and um it takes a long time for people
depression or other mental health issues
like you can endure a lot of suffering
for a long time
um in any with substances or or just
with mental health or with both um
there’s something about that that just
feels really uh pretty appealing to me
yeah
i love that man and it’s as you were
talking i’m i’m actually leaning towards
you know before i got to colorado i was
six years in a.a then i came here and i
met you yeah and you showed me the
mountains
and then after a few years of doing the
mountains you were like here’s a phone
number call this person i think it’s
going to be kind of crazy therapy but i
think you’re ready for it yeah he threw
me that and so you know that the back
side of my recovery which i would assume
for me um is the most vulnerable and the
most authentic came as a suggestion from
somebody who’s never been substance
driven yeah
that’s recovery
right
and that’s that’s what i want the
viewers to see today is like it comes in
all different shapes and sizes and i
remember being a young person and being
like i’m not sitting in that group for
the rest of my life i can’t do it
this just in it what you will grow up
and out of whatever wherever you start
you’ll have an authentic opportunity to
be in the top one percent relationally
spiritually mentally and emotionally and
that creates such fulfillment especially
for young people and it’s interesting
what you said too is they’re going to
come in here really immature but then
they’re probably going to be much more
mature than their cohort or other people
that are in the similar age range it’s
so true
and it’s scary too yeah you know to grow
up and out of that my friends are in
college but
there’s just a tremendous amount of hope
in 2022 that i really didn’t want to
miss
in my birthday celebration and i want to
turn it back over to you erin just to
say
what would you like to say to the person
that’s like
pre-contemplated or contemplated or has
that phone in their hand and it’s just
like
i don’t want to do this because i’m
scared to death that i’m going to have
this hard edge or not be a part of or be
left out i mean what can you say to that
person who’s got the phone in their hand
right now that could just give them just
a little bit of hope
well as we’ve been talking about this
i’ve been thinking that
um and i’m sure you’ve experienced i’m
sure we’ve all experienced this where
it’s so easy to identify how you’re
different and how you don’t fit within
xyz i think even within aaa and within
recovery situations you’re kind of
looking for differences and that’s the
thing about
what i love about peaks is it truly is
individualized and like it truly is like
based on um what this person needs and
what commonalities do we have
collectively as humans collectively as
people within peaks and the organization
so i think what what i would say is just
um
despite whatever you’re telling yourself
you’re not
you’re not so different that that we
can’t find commonality and that like
there are people there who here who will
not judge you and who will support you
despite whatever you think about
yourself um we don’t have that
and
um and there’s definitely hope and it
can it can get better yeah um
yeah i love that thank you so much for
that aaron i appreciate it
joseph what do you what would you like
to leave you know kind of the
our cul the culture of the show is
really the opportunity for recovery
community-based resources in 2022 and
the hope that is
um recovery today i mean what what would
you like to say to those people um who
are pre-contemplative or contemplative
and have the phone in their hand or just
you know filled with a tremendous amount
of fear and anxiety and shame
because i know we’ve all been in that
position so what would you
say to that individual
man
i guess that trying matters
you know it’s not about
if i if
every attempt that i’ve made in anything
in my life
um this is gonna be full effort try um
and a lot of them don’t work out but you
know you learn a lot from that and you
grow
so you know growth is a is a word that
i’ve been embodying i’m trying to you
know place in every almost
day of my life and i think that the
growth that you get from trying is
something and that trying means a lot so
take the try for sure and that’s huge
you know when i used to say this bull
crap phrase um that i got from a a that
says trying is dying and you actually
reminded me right there that i’m done
saying that
because it’s actually so important
and
for us to show up right and we do one
thing perfect we just don’t do this
substance thing but if you’re anything
like me in your first year you’re
struggling with dishonesty
um you’re struggling with integrity
you’re struggling with um relationships
you’re struggling with treating people
poorly but i got this one thing you know
but i’m not trying in a lot of other
areas
so you actually bring up a really good
point for me and i’m gonna quit saying
that because trying matters a lot
and i used to say you’re either doing it
or you don’t what a hard edge huh
well especially if you’ve tried over and
over and over and then you feel like
what is the point i keep trying and it’s
not working no it does matter yeah
i love that no that’s great man thank
you for that for sure
jason last but not least
what are we going to send the viewers
off with what is the message we want to
get across for the vulnerable person
who’s suffering with a mental health
disorder substance or not
um
man i love that you just said the word
suffering because that’s what i was
thinking about and um
uh
we were just talking about this in the
meeting earlier today too that uh
suffering
um
can be so difficult it is where we like
we we all have these stories of
suffering um
but overcoming suffering can be such a
great uh opportunity but i was i was
talking about in our meetings this
morning too that like sometimes our
suffering can create cause us to get
bitter and wall ourselves off and
i guess what i would have to say is uh
you don’t have to live this way
like it can be different and there can
be a path
um and you’re not alone those would be
the things i would say i love that
well thank you all for coming on um my
birthday episode we’ll do it each year
we’re not going to talk about sobriety
time we’ll just do mental health
awareness
i am grateful for the men and women in
the 12-step group a crazy birds group
alcoholics anonymous in prescott arizona
those were one of the first 5 am 5 a.m
watch out for the holiness yeah watch
out for the javelinas um shout out to
them those men and women showed me a
tremendous amount of love when i
couldn’t show it for myself so really
grateful for them grateful for all of
you and what you guys have meant to my
recovery um so thank you all so much
until next year um well before before
like we leave i just wanna like commend
you on that 14 years not that the
numbers mean a lot but every day that i
get to observe and just know you you
make it look so easy and it’s definitely
a role model for
several people and i know a lot of
people look up to you and the way that
you navigate through life chris so i
mean 14 years i hope you really feel the
congratulations on my behalf and the
people that i know we talk about man
chris got 14 years that’s awesome and
he’s out here looking living his best
life and doing so many leadership based
things that i don’t know if you get the
the recognition all the time but i
certainly appreciate the example you you
set for so thank you for 14 years thank
you man that means a lot and the vast
vast amount of people who you have made
a difference in their life because of
your recovery i mean it’s we can’t even
count it it goes on forever means a lot
it’s really incredible
thank you guys i really appreciate it um
recovery is amazing man i was at lake
and yesterday and i got to come down and
do iop and i am just like
the life that i get to live today with
you all a part of it is very very
special and i’m very lucky um so thank
you guys very much for coming on i
appreciate it um
you know where to find us this sunday at
spotify apple music who knows check us
out man i’ve been pointing a lot of
people to the show we’re getting a lot
of viewers we would love to have you on
this sunday at 6pm until next time
peace
[Music]

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Episode 64An Authentic Recovery StoryWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/rkbMaJVrYZQListen NowDescriptionOn this episode we are joined by a very special guest, Silven Wolf, who has overcome addiction and created a fulfilled life through helping others find their genuine path to recovery within Peaks Recovery, as well as in the Colorado Springs community. He opens up about the successes and triumphs, but also about common trials every person can relate to.

Talking Points1. Silven’s Story to Recovery 2. The importance of Community 3. Exploring the deeper parts of recovery 4. Silven’s professional journey Quotes

“Things really start to work out when you’re putting in the work and showing up. Things start to fall into place, and it’s such a cool thing to experience.” – Silven Wolf, Peaks Recovery’s Intake Coordinator

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 65 Transcriptshey everybody and welcome to another exciting episode of Finding Peaks Yours Truly president and founder Christopher Michael Burns also known as the company cheerleader and um in a motivator of some sorts I remember director of motivation director of motivate motivational motivational uh followed by my co-host our chief clinical Officer Jason friezma and our guest today Sylvan wolf who is an amazing professional but even better human so excited to have him on the show um Sylvan wolf is our intake coordinator he has also worked with Peaks as a client care aide for what a couple years yeah about a year and a half two years so grateful to have Sylvan on the show I can’t wait to jump into the topic what I really am excited to talk about today and I’ve had the opportunity to meet with Sylvan over the last year every couple of weeks on the personal side and talk about professional stuff as well and I just want to do a deep dive on your experience personally throughout getting into recovery and what that looked like the overcoming of adversity kind of what you walked through a little bit there and what you found and then we’ll get into kind of the professional side but I want to allow for you to kind of introduce the folks to kind of what I would consider what are the most authentic recovery stories I’ve ever been a part of awesome okay well my name is Sylvan and I’m an addict I thought I’d just start with that um because that’s what I’m used to a large part of my story is a 12-step that said I didn’t start there I would try to find anything else that worked anything else I had a lot of ideas I started using drugs and alcohol in all forms at about eight years old it really became a daily thing 1314 marijuana so with that uh turned into alcohol opiates which then turn into heroin meth all the good stuff um and it was so confusing actually to all of a sudden be a junkie right I use that word um because that’s that’s what it was I I hated myself honestly um so yeah I I started going to treatment centers when I was about 19 um the awful experience of opiate withdrawal would become a weekly if not monthly thing that is super traumatic and if anybody else has walked through it they know that um detoxes at first right and then um Parker Valley Hope uh I went there four times and then from there I went um well luckily you guys were working with Parker Valley Hope um I heard of this six-month Treatment Center um that drove their clients around in Mercedes vans so that stood out um hit us in the beginning when we had the jalopy yeah no seatbelt something about a hundred dollars a week and I you know fortunately at the time I was homeless and um I mean just desperate so desperate um

couldn’t figure it out man um Brandon came and picked me up gave me a tour that was really cool he bought me a pack of cigarettes when I’m sure he wasn’t supposed to and and I’m just oh just so grateful I can’t begin to describe it um because I came to Peaks and for the first time I felt seen um in that place of early recovery right that’s where I am just I feel psycho I I don’t know what’s happening inside of me I’m detoxing I was detoxing from Suboxone at the time um

and yeah yeah it was hell at first I was taught to work out um we didn’t have anything else to do you just drop us at the gym so there’s that um that was back when we need to go to 24. yeah yeah and then I ended up getting a job through there because it just starts to work out right um when when you’re showing up and things just start to fall into place it’s really really cool so yeah I um went to Peaks did six months there and uh came straight from the homeless shelter uh to Parker belly hope to you guys and man um there’s a lot there there really is a lot of gratitude today and a lot of stories um but anyway I um went from there relapsed because sometimes that happens and um I just I needed to come home the springs is my home I could not uh make it in Denver I just couldn’t that’s where I ran and when I came back here I just I didn’t know that I already built my community Through Peaks and that’s what was so cool is like I I had a place to land came back here and got a job at Peaks as a CCA and that was it you could uh life could end right there I’d be good right yeah um that was never going to happen that was never going to happen I was the guy that was never gonna get this seriously um and I’m fascinated that I’m in recovery today it in Peaks is a huge part of that yeah you really thank you for sharing that so beautifully man and it’s interesting to think because you know back in Peaks culture in 2016 early 2017 you know we were going to 12-step meetings each and every day yeah and I wanna I don’t I don’t know that you were resistant to that process but you’re out there laying the groundwork for a community that you would return to several months later to be invited back into the recovery community and I know that you have a very strong foothold in the 12-step community and that’s what you use for your community-based resource but what has that differently than potentially the relationship you have you know like with a family of origin um and they’re Primal people what have the men and women of 12 step the people that have shown up for you what has that meant for you and what story had it been able to allow yourself to tell that you weren’t able to tell when you first got to Peaks well um I I tried some n a stuff out in Denver I I was a meeting goer not a step worker essentially um I I felt good and kind of thought that well the things that you can the things you hear in meetings first of all um you kind of pick what you want to hear in the beginning it’s very it’s very weird um but you go to enough of them and the people who initially upset you um you start to see them in a new light and then you also start to hear the solution which has been happening the whole time actually um and so that said I am really blessed that um you guys were like hey it’s a a and we’re we’re doing this and I was completely adverse to that yeah um I was like na is my heart and AAA is old people who don’t let heroin addicts in the meeting right so um yeah there are sick people everywhere you go if you choose to see them you will find them um so yeah I uh went to almost two meetings every day through Peaks and you know I I was apathetic right I had I had some adversity but then um it was just apathy what what stood out to me was the other men that I went through this process with that I mean we’re just like no no 12-step sorry no well sorry you’re going um that was kind of the approach back then um and and I watched these men uh have sponsies six months later right have a life in the community and it it just so happens I believe that 12-step uh can meet you exactly where you’re at and it happens to hit on key points that can reach a large diversity of people and help them recover right Community um humility through the higher power stuff right that can be difficult but it is of your own choosing so there’s that and um I don’t really know if I’m answering your question honestly I’m just kind of throwing it out there it really you are you’re heading on it perfectly because I think when we’re connected with a whole heart and counter balancing within a community of recovering individuals we can really Propel that recovery story forward and get I think what we’re all chasing which is like just give me some clarity like where do I go next who am I doing it with them why does it matter yeah and it wasn’t until and I have a very similar experience in 12-step now I’ve um I haven’t been in that for a long time my recovery is a bit different but I still have a tremendous amount of love for that group of people that enabled me to tell a story in a more authentic way and had it not been for that stepping stone for me we most certainly wouldn’t be here it’s so funny how it shifted when you met me I’m like 12 12 12 12. and now now we’re like over here I’m like I haven’t been in a while and you’re like 12. yeah I love it I love it it’s really cool and just because I don’t go to Alcoholics Anonymous anymore and just because I don’t go pick up a chip there it doesn’t mean that I don’t have a tremendous amount of gratitude showed up for me and treated me like family yeah how has it been for you Jason because Jason even though he’s not in recovery um for substances and not in the 12 Steps he actually was a big Pusher of the 12-step program I think we all were because it was one of the it was the greatest value-based resource we had yeah and maybe that we still have but we’ve started to create broadness in our approach to aftercare planning in a more individualistic individualized approach but how has it been for you Jay because you and I used to sit around hey there’s got to be two meetings a day man we got to get you a sponsor first week let’s go we’re calling them every day we’re meeting them with them weekly how has this shift been for you yeah I think it’s been interesting and really you know from the clinical lens like uh people that are struggling with substance use also usually have a lot of Psychosocial stressors we call them that are uh creating problems and one of them is certainly uh a disconnection from community and I suspect uh Sylvan when you when you’re homeless on the street there’s people around but there’s not a lot of community around and certainly adding a 12-step meeting to somebody’s life can be so empowering because you go from nobody around and nobody understands me and honestly quite frankly usually thinking you’re the worst person on the planet or there’s no way to save me and then yeah uh you get around a bunch of other people that have walked uh similar steps as you and and have has have similar experiences that that sense of community and building that Community I think is so um incredibly important and and you know it’s interesting Chris like I when I look at the 12 steps what I really am drawn to so much in in the AAA Community is actually the 12 traditions which really kind of keeps people from profiting from it yeah and um you know making the community the actual thing that matters most not necessarily uh the uh the personalities but just really kind of the people around in the and the structure of the program yeah principles before Personality yeah and I love what you hit on too man you really explained the approach of 12-step very eloquently now it won’t fit for some people but man what a thing to be written in 1935 and still speak to anyone oh man anyone right and it still it speaks to a lot of people and um so I really appreciate you checking in with that and Sylvan is still an avid member of the 12-step Community sponsors people he’s a champion for marginalized communities I mean he is a champion for a lot of things but specifically recovery and vulnerable people but over the last year you and I have had the opportunity to meet and discuss different issues and and different opportunities that we could move into in an effort to be great for the people that we want to be great for and you’ve taken some suggestions in that and you’ve done kind of your own Journey kind of on the clinical side outside of 12-step and what has that done for you a bit differently or that maybe has supported your 12-step approach or just really created a nice beautiful Foundation maybe that you couldn’t see yeah good question yeah I I came to find over time um working with guys that sometimes we can’t address the trauma um um as much as we need to for some people through a strict recovery path right um I do believe I needed a restricted recovery path in the beginning right um but that that has to start opening up or you may not be of help like you could and so I I started doing SE somatic experiencing um I I didn’t really notice much of uh the results others kind of told me uh that I wasn’t as nervous or something super nervous right now but that’s for no reason yeah um and um yeah I just slowly began to just feel more comfortable in my skin it has aided my ability to help this still suffering addict and now we’re approaching mental health and I I love that there’s something there um that I I didn’t know I had to offer and that I could um and yeah I I think that as long as I remain open um and try new things in an effort to grow that it’s going to be okay you know um so yeah uh they they’ve been great and I’m sure I’ll try something new next year yeah I I love how you said that too man it’s just like when we look down at the tool kit you know did I put another arrow in my quiver yeah and that’s kind of how you describe that and it’s like it’s another arrow it’s another opportunity for another situation what a concept man being safe in my body you know really really difficult and I would have told you probably at six years sober and 12-step haven’t worked the steps five to ten times sponsored a lot of guys dude I’m safe in my body but I actually never unzip the bottom part of my backpack you know I only open the top but there’s this bottom compartment that I didn’t want anybody to see and that’s for me in that SC work that I was able to explore identify and move through and a lot like you and I know I’m one of those people that have mentioned it to you but the Stillness right feeling safe in my body and comfortable in different scenarios I think that’s what that SC work has done for me and what I’ve seen it clearly do for you as a person and as a professional and as someone in recovery I um I think for most if not all of my life I was constantly trying to change the way I feel because it was it wasn’t okay I think some people confuse why somebody may use a substance uh they may think well is the high that great that you would do this to your family and my argument while I believe you’re accountable for your actions uh regardless um it’s just helped me understand a little bit more of maybe why I acted the way I did and um

I lost where I was going with that and really offer yourself to I think you were leaning into to be able to give yourself more grace right and insert that for yourself and when I can insert Grace for myself give myself like dude you’re doing yeah I can then give that and deliver that in an authentic and vulnerable way to the people that you do you know which is really really cool proud of you man it’s been a really cool Journey now now we’re here at Peaks he’s back at Peaks he’s our intake coordinator um and Sylvan stepped away for about six months six months yeah Sylvan got an awesome opportunity um it was the first position one of the first positions in Colorado Springs he got hit up by um the fire department and went down there and was their first recovery Navigator and just a really cool position because if you know anything about Sylvan as he says he’s he started out there and now he’s in here and there is no one better at triage recovery than Sylvan wolf he is the type of guy that will walk into the community into someone who’s homeless and sit with them and hold space with them in a very very intimate way and so when this position came up for this recovery Navigator that’s what it was it was going into the community and making sure that these people knew that there were resources and knew that they were worth and valuable enough to receive these resources and so when you told me about the job I was like dude if that’s not called sylvan’s job I don’t know what it is and you went over there for six months and you had a good experience and you grew through that process but I think you always knew in some way shape or form that you would find yourself back at Peaks but maybe chat with us a little bit towards the end of the show here on what you gain from that experience and how it’s made you better um through your journey or Through Your Role today at Peaks well um when I started as a CCA uh I I kind of already was like what’s going to be next down the line right this is awesome I love this I grew into that I got good at that but ultimately uh Peaks has been a safe place for me right and I think I needed to see myself leave for a bit try new things and I I got to get closer with the community the homeless Community the incarcerated community and really still see myself Thrive there learned some case management skills um experience some heavy stuff and it was growth right regardless I couldn’t wait to come back and I’m so glad I have yeah yeah I was sitting with Sylvan and he goes am I eligible for rehire I said next week let’s go he’s like okay I said of course you are man yeah and it was it was a couple week process but it’s it’s been really great seeing you back on campus and I just feel like like I need to say this because I think sometimes when we bring stories in here for some viewers it’s like whoa that’s that’s intense that’s a lot those substances are scary right the stories on the street that’s whoa I’m not there I want to Define for the viewers just how thin that Razor’s Edge that Cliff’s Edge when we are out there trying to get safe cope with substances yeah the the distance between Chris Burns sitting in this chair is the president and founder and living in a cardboard box out there is so slim yeah right and so I just want to offer up Grace for some of these stories and a little bit of compassion because um I’ve met amazing people that unfortunately find themselves under a bridge today and it could have been me and I’m so grateful but for the grace of God I get to kind of sit here and share with you all but it’s a thin line and it’s a Razor’s Edge and we have been really lucky to be in here and be on this recovery side and walk with people into peak’s recovery so thanks for coming on man so glad to be here yeah really appreciate you thanks Jason um thank you all it has been absolutely amazing please check us out this Sunday at 6 PM you can find us on all of your podcasts I think I saw us on Spotify the other day course we’re on tick tock tick tock tick tock Instagram Facebook check us out man we’re bringing on great professionals but even better humans see us next time peace

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Episode 63Relationships Week at Peaks RecoveryWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/IF9a6_8fuKkListen NowDescriptionThis episode is filled with great insight regarding why Peaks Recovery integrates learning about relationships within our intensive program curriculum. We believe building healthy relationships is vital to all of us as human beings, therefore we want to help individuals relearn how to form them and how to truly connect with others.

Talking Points1. Overview of Relationships 2. Stabilization and Relationships 3. Circles of Intimacy 4. Laying the foundation to healthy relationships Quotes

“We all have a need to be in a relationship…and at our core, we all want to be fully known and fully accepted. We don’t want everyone to know us, that is living pretty boundaryless. But with relationships at the core we help clients break down how they look at their own relationships, both with people and things.”– Jason Friesema, MA, LPC, LAC

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 63 Transcriptsi just love that for all of you joining us today for another episode number 63 i looked at the notes looked at the notes that’s real to the crew in the back um for all of you all of you who just saw that intro it was the first time i saw the intro and i hope you enjoyed it just as much as we did here great brandon burns chief executive officer for peaks recovery center is joined today by chief clinical officer jason friesma lpc-lac all the things therapy leaders chief operating officer clint nicholson lpclec all the things therapy and uh we’re going to talk a little bit we’re going to do a little usually we’re talking about external things related to peaks recovery things that we do and how it kind of all works and comes together today we’re going to do a little dive into a little bit that we do at peaks recovery center so we’re going to talk a little bit about our curriculum uh one of the weeks of the curriculum correct me if i’m wrong we’re talking about relationships kind of an important topic for all of you out there you have relationships with us friends family significant others animals a variety of different ways to talk about relationships the meaning behind that jason friesman’s the expert he wrote the curriculum so we’re going to antagonize him with a lot of help yeah a lot of help he does need a lot of help that’s bad clinton gave me a look there clinton helped in a big way i did not no i was like what a relationship yes yeah he’s a skeptic actually yeah this is why pins are put in the cushion absolutely at work anyways we’re trailing off here welcome to this episode relationship curriculum tell us a little bit about it jason okay yeah we’ll do i obviously uh when people enter the peaks program usually there are some problems in their relationships like oftentimes people walk in into peaks whether it’s for a mental health issue or substance use issue or both uh there’s often a lot of um well strained relationships i would say and so really we decided uh to put relationships as part of our uh intensive curriculum uh because it’s important i think for our clients to take a look at that and obviously relationships and learning how to form them and and be in connection with others we look at as part of the solution for long-term recovery from from mental health issues so that’s why it’s in there okay i think fundamentally um i think the basis at least that i conceptualize looking at relationships is that we all have a need to be in relationship um even clinton uh has a need to be in relationships it’s a lot less than most people yeah i mean it’s there for sure um but in all seriousness like we have a need like it and um and i think at our core uh if if i were to put it really succinctly we we all want to be fully known and fully accepted and um we don’t want everybody to know us like that that’s kind of living pretty boundary list but like i think we all want a core group of people to fully know and fully accept us and um so with that at the core uh we kind of usually help clients uh break down how they look at their own relationships both with people and with uh things and and that sort of thing so that’s kind of an overview maybe brandon yeah i appreciate that yeah thank you for educating me because you were doing those things and i am just witness to the things okay within our work environment uh so curious about it you know we talk about stabilization as a 40 you know in our 45 day model we have a stable we call it the stabilization period at least in that 30 to 45 day time frame and so when we communicate things about relationships how like in a way it feels like i suppose if i were in that setting i would feel you know like that could be less stabilizing to talk about relationships and walk through that so you know maybe walk us through how that is a stabilizing feature of individuals who you know come into peaks either with mental health primary or sud primary uh and what that looks like okay so i think um

so our clients are often also aware that their relationships are in tatters and and so um certainly taking a look at relationships at least initially is not very stabilizing in fact it’s kind of disruptive particularly when we do kind of our intensive days on tuesday and wednesday during relationship week we do a particular exercise called circles of intimacy which i can talk about in a minute if you would like but um but but our clients know that their relationships are strained um sometimes clients take the perception that i’m a victim like i am the victim of my circumstances and the system that i am coming out of um i’m the victim of that and i need help or um or sometimes they come from the standpoint sorry i got distracted by the ambulance there but uh sometimes they come from the standpoint that um they recognize that they’ve pushed a lot of relationships that are important to them further uh out from their life so um so in the way i’ll circle around to this or i’ll go around to the circles of intimacy what we do is we have people um kind of take it take a look at their relationships in their life and actually we have them uh on different pieces of paper write down up to 20 relationships sometimes it’s with work or school but we do try to focus a fair amount on people and also have them focus on activities that they may enjoy or not enjoy and sometimes drugs of choice can go on there as well and we we have people examine where as far as closeness uh to their core to be being fully known and fully accepted where each of these things fall in their life as they walk in and you know i i’ve sat with a lot of people going through this exercise and you know unfortunately a lot of times like people uh you know right in the middle of their circles of intimacy the thing they’re closest to is alcohol for instance and and so to kind of visually see that like alcohol has kind of created a scenario where i pushed out all the really important things in my life and the things in my core are the things that are not important for my life like oftentimes that’s been a big realization as clients do this exercise is they find that that they pushed out a lot of things that are important to them and allowed a ton of things that aren’t important to them to be their closest uh relationships i guess and um and that creates uh a lot of disruption for our clients it creates a fair amount of chaos uh shame and a ton of shame and um and as you know if you’ve watched any of our episodes about shame you know that what perpetuates shame is uh not talking about it and the irony is that when your relationships are in tatters that’s the last thing you want to do is talk about any shame you’re experiencing and so um it creates a pretty significant cycle down um the other thing that we certainly noticed too is uh when people live kind of a boundary-less life they they allow really dangerous people in to be really close to them like for instance a drug dealer or just a friend that’s taking advantage of them and so that’s who they allow in and that usually causes important relationships to become detached and distant um and it leads to a lot of chaos in people’s lives or the other alternative that i’ve seen a fair amount of people come in with is they push all the relationships really far away because of their shame around either substance use or their mental health and that just leads to just uh feelings of significant loneliness and so um when we when clients come in and kind of see all this and receive feedback around it then we ask them to kind of look aspirationally and how do you how do you want your relationships to look moving forward and we literally shift them around on the board and then say how do you how do you draw on your brother to be closer and how do you set some boundaries so this person is further away from you and that sort of thing so that’s kind of what the intensive part of that looks like and um though i’m kind of describing it uh you know kind of this higher level like it is fairly intense to write down all of your relationships and uh to lay them out and and to kind of look at maybe the uh sort of the mess somebody’s created in their life and then um to kind of find the solution and what that might look like uh can be really important as well well when you lay out your relationships and you kind of see the chaos that’s been created um it also strongly correlates to your value system right you find out that you’re also living outside of your value system and how really that constellation of relationships is really representative of something even greater than that so but so it’s a good entry point a lot of times to for even greater discussions after that um so i had i had an intervention two and a half years ago you might remember jason because was i there because you were there yeah oh okay doing the things and like no i’ll go later and you’re like no you go now yeah um so i had a little little thing going on jason caught it so i went for five days did this trauma intensive thing and i share that because upon arrival as we got probably two to three days into this process um uh i was in a group of of five uh with or five total there were three females and another male in the room and as we started getting into the trauma work all of this externalization happened like right in front of me and these three women were like oh i i know my problem now i gotta i got a divorce i gotta break up with i gotta get this guy out of my life uh sort of experience and so the circle of intimacy um resonates with me or at least through that experience because it feels like it’s how a lot of people are walking in if these people weren’t in my life i would be better in here if these people weren’t in my life i wouldn’t be drinking the way that i do sort of experience and it sounds like the circles of intimacy actually allows individuals to see that actually what is the problem at the center of their life or not the relationships and the people around but this thing called alcohol you know heroin and so forth so no i think you’re exactly right and and there isn’t a lot of times that we we stopped for a second to kind of examine like maybe i feel off a little bit or something isn’t kind of clicking in my life and they need to kind of take a look at um my relationship with my job or my relationship with alcohol or my relationship with the gym or lack thereof or whatever it might be and um and it kind of peaks i think particularly during this week allows people to take that moment and and to do some of that examining and to to lay it out kind of graphically and then to say okay where do i want it to go absolutely and then um clint’s favorite question is then okay how yeah how do i bring people closer how do i move social media way further out from my from these circles and invite real relationships in or how do i move fitness like i mean usually when people come in fitness and exercise and all those things are on the periphery of people’s lives and they uh aspire to kind of move that sort of thing in as well but i think that’s the great part of circles of intimacy is it creates space for repair like it’s not just about you just need to go there’s a it gives a really clear very vivid constellation of why what is impacting what and also gives you this kind of this map on how to fix it or at least begin to address it so yeah and in that example you gave brandon like you know on day one or day two or whatever of the intensive you you participated in i don’t think that’s necessarily the best time to make big safe decisions uh yeah take a couple years take a minute yeah and so you know oftentimes like when when people kind of have that reaction of like man i need to like blow this up or whatever you know i i like to then say well there’s probably some conversations in a process and you need to kind of begin to identify maybe what boundaries you need to put in place or what things you need to be communicating or expectations or whatever that you need to kind of implement in your life um and and i just don’t i don’t think you’re at a you know this is what i’ll say i i just don’t think you’re necessarily at a crossroad quite yet on that and and that may be a crossroad you reach and you may have to take that divorce path in that example but like you’re not at that exit yet right it’s usually what i like to say like you yeah for sure and you’re having these realizations and it’s an emotional flood for sure but well and what’s missing a lot of times in those and the relationships that with these dynamics is just space right there’s just not enough breathing room and enough space to see things objectively and again i think having a a sort of intervention strategy like circle circles of intimacy it literally puts it outside of you and gives you some actual physical space to kind of look at and view it from a different angle so i you know one of the things that i think is challenging in our industry you know you you can read about a doctor who you know goes in on a patient and does a surgery and you know replaces their heart organ transplants shattered bones like really extraordinary procedures and they suture them all back up and they get well in the process and it seems like there’s something like i don’t know just really big happening there and what i mean by that or introducing that is like some of these concepts in the clinical world feel like very straightforward and like simple and i think that some of the expectations i experience from like family systems at times is like you guys are about to perform rocket science on these people and though it’s not rocket science there’s something very powerful happening just like the heart surgery the shattered arm those instances and um i just want to talk a little bit more about like the power that you see from it uh as people walk through those experiences

i i actually really appreciate you saying that like i think i think a lot of clinical intervention is not rocket science in a lot of ways it’s but it is about um it’s about holding space which i think we’ve talked about on here like like sometimes like i think it’s what we try to do actually as we sit here in front of these cameras is sit here and hold some space for a good discussion um and some some thoughtfulness around it and that that’s a key component and then certainly there might be some insights in all that and maybe you know when clients laid out you know i my favorite part is when other clients are offering their own insights and feedback but it but it’s just a few sentences or a few observations and i don’t know what those that example you gave like these women heard something that was like i’m seeing things like the scales are falling from my eyes i can see clearly now um and uh it’s your point that isn’t an eight hour long surgery where there’s pins and rods and all that and somebody’s shattered arm but like i do think um i do think these simple tools um provide kind of the format maybe for the magic work if you will of therapy to work

yeah i guess um i love that word magic magic yeah super into magic yeah slytherin house of course yeah um i think that so medical science has one thing going for it and that’s that you can see it right like there’s a there’s a phys a visual moment that’s happening but the reality is like underneath that cast underneath that suture whatever the case may be all of those pins and needles are still very fragile and it is months and sometimes years and years of healing that actually still has to happen in order for that that um that limb to repair completely and to some degree it might never actually repair completely right i think that we’re doing the same thing a lot of times we are actually like setting pins and we’re setting bones and we’re setting these sort of emotional spaces for people that allow them the opportunity to once as they progress in life to to kind of transform into who they want to be and to be able to create the relationships that they’re actually that they’ve actually wanted the whole time so if they come into the process around relationships and say something like okay i’m gonna divorce my husband tomorrow that’s the problem they do intimacy of relationship actually like maybe the alcohol is the problem maybe i want to bring yeah you know like husband a little bit closer in that regard but the initial energy is like zero to sixty divorce how do we ensure that the next direction is in zero to sixty coming i’m gonna love you is like i’m just gonna do the exact opposite of this divorcing and just love you in the way like i met you for the first time right because if it especially around substance use disorders there’s an intensity of use and then that intensity translates into exercise relationships all the other things that normally the intensity is being put into the drugs and alcohol now it’s being put in all these things um but if you’re that wife husband or whatever that went through these experiences and now you’re just coming out and saying i love you all of a sudden right they’re wounded you know they’re going through their own struggles and so how how do we in like a relationship week um you know nurture them not doing the 0-60 thing but incrementally in the how aspect moving toward the goal rather than racing toward the goal

yeah that’s a good that’s a good question and and i like yours your 0-60 metaphor just gives me the opportunity to say what does 5 miles an hour look like like you can just ask a client that i’m like having some ideas around what that might look like um and i’ve certainly um i’ve certainly given like couples uh the metaphor of like yeah um your old marriage may be over but this relationship may not be over like you may need to rebuild a new marriage like that that other one was full of uh deception and lies or or infidelity or whatever and that does need to probably die but that doesn’t necessarily mean that your relationship with this person needs to go away and how do we how do we begin to navigate that and then also kind of you know truthfully um in our family program and what we teach our clients too is just really again simple and basic communication strategies um like even even how to format a weekly meeting between a couple to just kind of discuss some of the harder things that would either be avoided or would come up all the time like how do we kind of build some containers around difficult conversations to not avoid or not flood the flood the zone with that either like so i think there are ways to build in kind of a breaking mechanism to keep from going 0 to 60 because it’ll it’ll fail right like or i’ll just say like you got to let the concrete dry a little bit before you can uh build on top of that and so um i think you pick up on a really important piece too like all these things are measured and to your point like the intensity like people do sometimes just be crave that intensity and and part of it too is like some empathy building like okay yeah you’re in here and you’re we’re talking about this eight hours a day or whatever absolutely and your partner is at work yeah the rate of recovery is much different they’re thinking about this like 20 minutes a day tops and mostly they’re angry so like yeah if you if you they’re gonna try to jump on the treadmill at you know 20 miles an hour like they’re just going to fly off the back of this thing like you got to slow down and build some empathy there and that’s where boundaries are really effective as well right they’re kind of like a natural speed bump right just slows things down a little bit but really i think it’s the rate of recovery that is something that really has to be explained to people law because you know they’re healing at a pretty significant rate even though it might not be a magical like immediate thing can consider in comparison to the people that are sort of on the outside of the programming they’re moving at a really really rapid click and um it’s it’s not going to be even when you meet up on the outside why why relationships and not some other concept and and i think the thing that i’m trying to get at here is is that relationships are fairly triggering especially for individuals involved with drugs and alcohol and even mental health issues or you know even without all those things just a family system or relational system without boundaries or ways to communicate with each other can drive a ton of frustrations the divorce rates in america all those sort of things that we have but uh in that way i mean i guess what’s the biggest part that nurtures in the future resilience around craving states or triggered states and those types of things because we’re still i i mean the question feels rhetorical when i’m answering because it feels like if we get these things right we’re less triggered we’re slowing things down into the future we’re discovering these processes and that can also be a beautiful thing i i mean maybe this relationship failed like you said but this really uh this relationship can really thrive under these new circumstances and so um you know but to the to just kind of keep it i guess a little bit more attuned with those trigger states and substance use disorders you know why relationships um is such an important aspect to communicate maybe by comparison to some other week that we’re doing

you know when when you’re when you’re asking that question what i’m thinking of is we i would like for our clients to build significant enough relationships that when they are in the parking lot of the liquor store about to walk in they will pick up their phone and call somebody rather than walk in or you know when they’re thinking about coming off their meds they’ll actually have enough of a relationship and care and the people around them that they’ll be like i don’t feel like taking my meds anymore in the family but what do you think like i think like to me that’s that’s the goal right like we can put in all these tools but inside of that is this um this emotional intimacy that that if it’s built correctly then then you don’t have a family that you’re just trying to prove yourself or you’re trying to make them happy or appease them you have friends and family that are around you where you can say hey i’m having this struggle can you support me rather than catch me if you can i’m going to try to present myself in in a positive enough light that you won’t see that i’m struggling and instead to say i’m at the liquor store i’m about to walk in and talk me out of it give me two reasons why i shouldn’t to kind of hopefully the relationships can poke through that craving state that you described yeah just enough and it seems like too you know the in the parking lot of the liquor store right calling you know maybe wife or husband or whoever in that moment is also walking through uh a shame experience too right you’re the last person i want to call but i know it’s the right call at the same time as well too and allows a person to get through that and act and then creates that all that additional level of healthy communication of hey do you need me to come sit with you you know can we meet up somewhere you know those types of things it seems like it really just compounds on itself to create this real positive value that allows the person maybe in that moment to actually drive away from the liquor store in a way that they would have been there with shame regardless and gone through it as an experience ignored the conversation knowing it was going to add shame to it somehow try to hide it breathman or something gets home and then experiences more shame because they know that’s coming because they just made up a story about how they tripped and fell and a bottle of liquor fell in their hands so but if we can if we can teach families because like on the other end of that is you know we see it in our family programming like when we talk about relapse being possible or like learning how to listen and talk about craving states or triggers and that sort of thing like families get very afraid and teaching families that like hey if somebody comes to me says i’m triggered like that’s a great sign that’s that’s trust building and don’t panic or like it’s not time to necessarily go to shame or anything like that so we can teach families to talk about it when triggers and cravings are low i think it’s the building blocks too to be like i’m at a nine and i need a movie or i need to go on a drive or i need something like i think it builds kind of that structure to like communicate about the hard times too yeah

i mean healthy relationships are fifty percent of recovery you know i think regard regardless of if it’s substance use or mental health healthy relationships or how we stay healthy as human beings and it may sound simple and maybe again there might be more clever topics to to bring up in a treatment episode but if you don’t have healthy relationships you don’t have stability yeah well and i think you know and it for me to be absolutely clear i mean we’re one of the only treatment center counselors you know talking about relationships in this world it’s a really big topic and and even though it presents as simple maybe to some somatic experiencing trauma you know therapeutic intervention taking place that has a little bit more oomph and it’s yeah you know sort of tighter a little sexier a little sexier a little a little more curb appeal on the side of it um we can’t do that type of work without these foundational things in place it feels like these are the these are the priorities to get right and then from there we can move into more of these uh intensive trauma work or intensive focus on you know family systems and that sort of stuff so the building blocks make sense um and so what comes off as simple as or not rocket science at the end of the day has an incredible amount of power and that has to be the takeaway um not because we insist on it here at peaks but because we witness it each and every day that we walk through um at least this week of our curriculum um and so i think you know to kind of carry us out in that how format right you know i go i do my five days jason friesma made me okay i’m done with it that individual therapy everything i’ve experienced you know on the other side of that i think one of the real powerful features of clinical interventions is it’s it creates a ton of awareness about who we are removes blinders about the situation that we’re walking through uh and there’s an incredible power to that and there’s almost like a feeling my feeling just to share it in particular walking away like i got this easy through that awareness i know where the harm’s coming from i know how to like put all these places you know all these things intact and then i show up in my household and i see my wife and it’s like dang it it’s still hard to say i love you you know or something around that uh in that regard and from a neuroplasticity you know standpoint of you know long-term healing in the brain 50 reduction in outcomes after year one in relapse outcomes 85 reduction after year two less than five percent after year five takes an incredible amount of time just for the brain to heal around craving states the physiological brain states right and it’s going to take not an incredible amount of time i don’t want to use too big of a words here but it’s going to take time to get those relationships right to get those things intact to move past that first conversation that first i love you when i get home into the second i love you and into i love you and here’s some flowers and you know and really building upon those uh things so you know maybe what advice can we give to like family systems watching individuals who maybe did relationships at peaks or outside of peaks and you know thought they had it may be struggling a little bit about you know in the same way that we got to nurture those craving states over years as a time frame how we can kind of put the best foot forward and maybe strategies for supporting that endeavor

i mean i think there’s a few fold things first of all you know i’ve known a few people that have done kind of those intensive weeks and usually there’s one or two people that stay in connection for long periods of time because they need that support to be like hey is this harder for you on the back end of this because like this is tough um and then i know like like i i literally we have we ask our families to set up meetings weekly pick a day pick a time it’s one hour list out eight or ten questions that you wanna ask and go over are you experiencing cravings are you taking your meds did you see your account whatever it is you want to do but like we script it out and they walk out and there’s an appointment 6 p.m on tuesday this is what we’re going to talk about and um and the families that i’m aware of that that do this and follow up on it um they they build it’s like building this tool and then organic conversation comes out of that usually after two or three months of doing that they don’t need to do it anymore because it was kind of this arbitrary or not arbitrary but it was it was a clunky uh pragmatic uh solution to some of this um that could that then transition into being organic once once they got the conversation piece down so setting these little things because the other thing is okay these questions then you can’t ask them the rest of the week like let them give space and like and then we have these other activities to like help build and nurture your relationship with one another as well but like so i think there’s some really pragmatic things uh to say this is going to be hard and here’s how you lean into some of these conversations i mean jason is i know i’m pragmatic so i this is probably one of the best days of my life it i i 100 agree it’s it’s strategy right it’s simplicity it’s it’s intentionality and more than anything it’s practice it takes practice you’re not going to be good at it right away and i think having realistic expectations and then using these really pragmatic strategies you kind of have to start from scratch to a certain degree yeah yeah absolutely and you know just to kind of make it true on that medical side of things for like what we do maybe peaks is the cast and we put all the pins and uh needles and everything in the arm suture it up and then when you leave after 45 days you’re sort of stable enough to take the cast off but from there you’re in any medical any i’m not a i’m not a doctor scientist but i want to say any medical condition of that major disruption in the way that mental health and addiction are is going to require that ongoing like physical therapy yeah physical therapy all of those things in place to really get it right and really get it corrected and as you go through those processes even though it’s healed you’re going to think oh it’s actually not fully healed and actually and i want to be over here but i can’t get there fast enough and so there’s a all those stressors that come with this incremental approach within mental health and substance use disorder are also true for all these medical disorders and i think we’ve gotten so good as a society of separating the two and saying this is a real sciency thing that’s happening over here and we’re just talking about relationships over here um but both of them have the same setup for foundation creation and then leveling up into physical therapy and an ongoing intensive outpatient over here and then all molding into the position where like i can actually throw a pitch now because after my arm was shattered and i can actually walk into a room and be relational with my wife in a way that i’ve never been before and without drugs and alcohol uh in that way and i think this these are this is often missed within the nature of it not feeling like rocket science in this you know in the beginning at the end of the day so just wanted to hit that home and i think kind of as a you know a take out here uh you know encourage family systems the viewers out there individuals in relationships or otherwise to think about how you walk into your house each and every day at the end of your job you’re tuckered out you’re tired all of those things what does it look like for you to walk into that home and and out of this sort of walking away too is is to experience your own difficulties and showing up in the way that you did on day one of whatever relationship you’re in whether it’s a friend a significant other or otherwise day one when we’re all giddy in our first relationships we just do whatever and we bring the flowers when we do all those things and somehow we move away from those things as experiences so what’s true for individuals uh who experience substance use disorder and mental health is also true for the general population our divorce rates wouldn’t be so high if it weren’t true at the end of the day and invite everybody to find a counselor somebody in their life to help them help bring you closer to relationships because they’re so valuable and i think more than ever without making any grand statements i think relationships as a communal feature are just so valuable in today’s society and so encourage everybody to think about that on the other side it’s not just a problem for substance use disorder and mental health i think it’s a community problem that we’re all experiencing at any given time and just push a little bit to to consider it a little bit further in your own time so unless you guys wanna are inspired by anything else to add to that i think it’s perfect all right drop it drop down right drop and drop it love you all thanks again for joining us on another episode of finding peaks finding peaks at peaksrecovery.com send me an email telling me how perfect your relationship is you missed brandon point there i do everything great um also find us on the twitters this uh the other social medias the facebooks are you all doing facebook say you’re all still doing facebook instagrams uh what is what is the chris burns tick tock the tick tock the heart days the pounding of the chest follow chris burns on peaks recovery as well too until next time thanks for joining us and we’ll see you soon

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Episode 62Finding Hope Through FitnessWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/b04wcEx6XCoListen NowDescriptionThis is such an exciting episode with two special guests, Nick Wells from Redemption Road Crossfit, and Dan Hugill who is now Peaks Recovery’s Activities Director. These two humble men tell their inspiring stories of overcoming addiction, the prison system, and difficult life challenges. They share how they both found purpose within the fitness and Crossfit world helping other struggling individuals change their lives for the better.

Talking Points1. Dan and Nick’s story of overcoming addiction and the legal system 2. What is the recipe of success 3. Overcoming shame Quotes

“I had to learn how to love myself before I could ever give back to somebody else.”– Nick Wells from Redemption Road Crossfit

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 62 Transcriptshey everybody and welcome to another amazing episode of finding peaks we have my grateful re recovering co-host jason friesma grateful to have him here i am really really excited for the show today a little bit different chief clinical officer i’m here with our friends dan hugh hill who i believe is our peaks recovery first ever activities director so grateful to have dan on board and we got nick wells here with redemption road crossfit grateful to have him on but more than anything we have amazing professionals but you know what i do i bring on even better humans so we’re so grateful here to have an hour to talk about american politics no i’m just kidding

really looking forward to talking about recovery talking about how these men right here work with people both incarcerated and out in the community and helping people transition and integrate into the community and change their lives one day at a time and we just had the pleasure of sitting here for the last 15 minutes really talking to nick and chatting with dan about the work that they’re doing and so i really want to kick it over to them and have them tell you a little bit about their story in the hope that we have not only for community integration but just for people in the early stages of recovery finding fitness finding connection and finding these gentlemen and so we’re just going to get it going i’m going to start with dan dan maybe just introduce yourself dan was a former employee of peaks recovery a few years back and he went over to the phoenix multi-sport and non-profit recovery fitness program here in town which is a really great operation and he spent some time there and over the last couple of months we’re grateful to get him back at peak’s recovery back home with us but i want to turn it over to dan and just talk a little bit about maybe where you started your recovery um you know your peaks experience the phoenix and kind of where we’re at today cool awesome chris thank you bro yeah thank you it’s a pleasure to be here yeah so um i’m dan hugel i was uh my so my recovery experience uh i it july 23rd i’ll have eight years completely sober completely clean uh yeah like when i first got sober um it was actually um i was on the run i had i here in colorado springs i had seven was out on seven felony warrants for like distribution manufacturing methamphetamine robbery he was on the news for armed robbery in 2014. didn’t actually go down that way but i won’t get into that whole story right now it’s actually not what happened

the bounty hunters ended up getting me in 2014 on july 23rd i got a phone call my mom my parents were watching my two dogs but they wouldn’t let me stay with them because you know i was my life was significantly unmanageable yeah and so i get a phone call in the morning and she’s like hey your dogs are gone and i’m like oh so i’m like i’m just waking up you know at this point i’m drinking so bad that like i’m detaining so like and i was an iv user so i had to drink to stop to shake so that i could use and then like i was just sweating it was like middle of july like 95 degrees i’d have been sweating at 20 degrees yeah and i remember i got dropped off down the alley in my parents house because i was like i’m gonna find my dogs i love my dogs they’re still having the two pit bulls and i’m walking up the alley and i’m using my cute voice i’m like toba hammer where are you and i was like well maybe they found them so it’s so hot outside it’s so hot and like i was very athletic prior to this and in my mind i still wasn’t momentarily i was i would come to realize how deconditioned i had actually become from 14 years of just crazy drug and alcohol use so i go walking in the back door going up the alley and i go into my parents house and then standing at the front door the bounty hunters stephen and will and i’m actually friends with them yeah so i yelled some profanities i went hop in the fence and uh i ran and uh this is when i realized how deep conditioned i was two 300 meters i was just like i have to figure something out because this dude’s on my heels went to jump the fence fell bleeding everywhere and um ended up going to jail and they finally had enough like they had they put a bunch of holds on me they’re like absolutely not like we’re not letting you out this time then i ended up you know this is where i first had my like come back to like my spiritual path and i got sober long enough to like realize like i’m for sure going to prison and like now it’s like what can i do to lessen the blow of that what can i do like to like get my life together so like i had kind of like a what we could call kind of like a spiritual slap in the face while i was in the county jail and i ended up doing a 30-day inpatient treatment at parker valley hospital that’s right yeah which was great yeah shout out to robert yeah yeah

yeah but uh so like i did all this all these things you know i started getting really involved with 12 step and uh still on um they gave me my my offer was if i take it to trial you’re looking at like 42 to 48 years and like there’s no way i’m gonna beat that there’s absolutely no way so i took an open plea and then december 14th 2000 december 15 2014 i got sentenced to 12 years in the department of corrections and uh you know it was a little bit shocking i was just like ooh all right and then you know went in through the like you know the whole like you know you’ve been through on transport going to sell house five there’s a little pull-up bar i could do three pull-ups and i used to be so athletic i was just like oh yeah so um this is where i started really decided i’m gonna start getting back into like my fitness whatever that looks like i ended up ended up at bent county correctional facility and uh i started working out a lot i remember my first hundred burpees like like the first five i was like i got this and then by 49 i was like i’m just making it to halfway it was a mind battle and i got through it and then something happened with that where i just i felt good and i was like i’m gonna keep doing this so we started doing like crossfit yard crossfit there was a guy in there that he uh he did crossfit when he was on the streets and he kind of brought like the version of programming that he knew how to do so like this is where crosstalk was one of the big things that saved my life and i’m not going to let nick talk here in a minute about rf2 and redemption row crossfit because i wish i had something like that in there yeah amazing program yeah but uh yeah so i started doing crossfit and uh i didn’t join a gang didn’t do anything like that just went to like church 12-step meetings in there and i ended up uh in march 2016. i did about almost a year and a half they brought me back and they reconsidered my sentence and they released me into a specialty drug court program and at this point this is where i found the phoenix like 48 hours sobriety you can go and you can do crossfit it’s free yeah i was on that i latched on to that and then at that time that’s where i met you and you were the first person in that heels court right uh i was the first person i was the first person to be to be brought back to be like brought from prison okay okay like that was kind of an experiment okay cool yeah and i like smashed through the program i crushed that the heels are very grateful for to them yeah that’s that’s where i found phoenix and then i was landscaped for two months and that fell through and then uh that’s where i came in and i met everybody at peaks and i started off as a house manager for almost two years and so like like big shout out like i love peaks loved it then love it now um it you guys gave me the opportunity and i say us and it’s like we now but like you yeah you know what i mean yeah gave me the opportunity to get my foot in the door to be in the recovery community help me get certified as a you know peer recovery coach and then from there you know i remember when we transitioned you had that little party for me when i transitioned to the phoenix and it was great i was you know the program coordinator at the phoenix i was an instructor for a few years and i became the program coordinator for colorado springs and then was also the liaison for colorado for everything we do with department of corrections so um last year uh at wodfest is actually when i met nick and in 2019 when i found the rf2 the redemption no crossfit program i went into fremont correctional facility so i met trevor jones yeah i met trevor and i walked in there because i worked out in prison and i knew about all the politics from experiencing it personally and i walked in and there’s something what i saw was you have different gangs different races different cases all working out together i was like there’s something to this yeah so like i started trying to get involved and then you know look like covey couldn’t go and do anything like that and then started to get more back involved that’s where i met nick at the wad fest and it was great um did you cool if i tell them about the watch look at the waterfalls blew my mind so it was they had was it 15 people from from inside the facility and they brought 50 was 30 all 30 total uh i think it was yeah 15 or 20. yeah 15 or 20 of us uh two or three from each facility yeah that’s cool that has the program we all came we were paired up with volunteers from the street yeah yeah that’s where it is shirt like like you got the cool shirt that’s a participant shirt that’s got a volunteer shirt it’s almost it’s like white yeah like the dark yeah of course it’s cool though so that’s where i uh that they had the competition in there and it was at the denver women’s facility and they brought people from all over the facilities matt frazier showed up wow yeah people were hanging out with matt frazier big picture with nick yeah like it was it was powerful like seeing that it was so igniting that’s where i started to get more involved with going back into the prisons and started like really wanting to get involved with redemption road crossfit and like a few of the other ones and um so nowadays i just this is my first like i guess my second technically kind of week back at peace yeah and i’m just really excited to be back i can’t wait we’re unrolling all kinds of fitness and activity into the curriculum and like i’m just so excited and we’re about to unleash this all next week and get it started and uh that’s that’s in a nutshell like what i’ve been through where i’m at today you know since then i got i’m married i have a kid i have a my boy asher who’s almost three and i adore him you know what i mean bro you know yeah they don’t have a little daughter who’s nine months old she’ll be one in september and uh and my wife like my life has changed drastically from where it was back when i was running amok on the streets yeah i love that man and i thank you for checking in and sharing so vulnerably with us and i think it’s important to point out for the viewers that i never knew dan before he got into recovery and dan is one of the most compassionate kind empathetic caring people i have ever met and so that i think that just goes to show when we’re out there coping with substances because that’s what we’re doing there is most certainly an undertow of which we’re coping from and is informing those behaviors because i never met that person that he describes in the past in fact i met somebody much different and i met somebody and who in my experience in my opinion is in the true genuine and authentic version of himself and that’s why he’s thriving in this world so i really appreciate you man i think sometimes when people hear prison sometimes they hear violence they hear stuff they’re like whoa i can’t relate when in fact i think we can all relate just a little bit and yours truly president and founder i was lucky to not have gone into the department of corrections god spared my life and i marched off into recovery but it could have easily been that way and i just want people to hear and see very drastically that there is hope there is change and it’s sitting right in front of me today so absolutely yeah so i appreciate that brother i want to turn it over to nick i got the chance to meet nick about 45 minutes ago and we were actually mid conversation and the show started so i want to pick up and allow nick to introduce himself tell a little bit about his story as well uh my name is nick wells i’m super happy to be here um i met dan like you said at wadfest uh last july um and it was it was a pivotal moment in my life there was things happening in my life at that time that was unbelievable like you said god stepped in and saved your life god stepped in and saved my life uh a couple blocks from here in 2008 and i had a little standoff with the police they called it a standoff i was just trying to get my stuff together i was just trying to get some food man you know i was trying to get my stuff together i came out i surrendered anyways it changed my life that day that was uh you know 14 years ago and uh but what got me there was drug abuse right um at an early age i found methamphetamines you’re not supposed to be doing methamphetamines ever let alone a 14 year old kid yep and then a 14 year old kid that thought he was a drug dealer you know and then to fuel that drug habit i i resorted to crime because your mom’s not going to give you money for drugs right and so exactly so and so i spent 14 years of my life getting it all wrong drugs in and out of jail um horrible relationships horrible uh you know just one thing after another right uh walking different than what i was called right and uh that day’s changed my life right i went by there the first day i got out just just to see full circle it’s literally like three blocks from here um but in that process uh you know you do a lot of self-reflection a lot of self-reflection so i i was a drug addict i go to jail um you know there was gangs and violence um you know i was selling drugs i was in that world so i knew a lot of people you know so i get you know fast forward like dan you know like before it was you get out of prison you get out you get in trouble you get out you know what i mean you go to probation you get out you know what i mean you’re doing things this time they’re like absolutely not yeah you’re not good we’re done with you yeah uh we’re absolutely done i had 103 felonies out of douglas county like 60 out of colorado springs and they’re like you’re not getting a plea bargain yeah plea bargains aren’t an option matter of fact you’re everything but a plea bargain right and i was like man and so i ate my i ate myself i being an addict i ate myself i found myself 400 pounds right i was 400 pounds trying to figure out life and uh a friend of mine oh he’s just like man what is wrong with you you know and my life changed like i i already knew i was about to i was like this ends today no more you know there’s a funny story that goes on i’m not going to get the butt right now i started telling you guys earlier um but it you know it’s a pivotal moment in my life where i was like i’m going to do something different and then i showed up to the lyman correctional facility and the gangs were like hey you know what’s up you know what i mean you got all your whole life in prison i was like yeah i’m gonna die here but i’m not doing that wow i’m gonna i’m gonna set a new road and whatever the consequences so be it right and so you know i was kind of straddling the fence being cool with the guys you know i didn’t want to get like you know jumped every day for sure but at the same time i did i know i didn’t want to be a part of that and i met this guy damian arguelle who’s the co-founder of rf2 and uh changed my life forever you know when i met him you know i knew him but we were just kind of i was just just you know passing we worked together in the laundry but one day he was doing thrusters and i was like that looks cool i went over there to see him and i was like hey what are you doing man and he was like i’m gonna do 50 thrusters for time are you in and i was like well i don’t know what a thruster is and so he had 95 pounds on the bar and his metal weight we didn’t have any rubber you know and so i i do the most miserable thrusters it’s ever seen right like front squats i’m all on my toes my elbows are down hunched over and i’m like trying to get that 95 pounds above my head and it was miserable and i get it up there and i just dropped the weight from the top right which is like a taboo send it yeah what are you doing bro like bing bang bang and all these guys that have been down for like 100 years are like hey brother don’t do that that’s what i’m saying really and then damian’s like oh man you know and he’s i can see the look on his face like really but at the same time he’s super happy and yeah he’s like what do you think i was like well i only got 49 more you know what i mean and he was like man i found my workout partner for life and that dude helped me change my life wow and we just started grinding grinding grinding and i have my poor mom i’m like hey go to crossfit.com she’s like what what’s a wad you know and so like we said they’re doing things and uh you know what we saw was that it started out with two of us we were doing crossfit 2012 to 2017. it was two like two more people would come two more people would come two more people would come and then um brandon cruiser and damian aguero had the bright idea of making it into a program i was a naysayer at first and i was like there’s no way there’s no way they’re gonna give us a program but if they do i’m there right right yeah first day i’m there boom yeah hey i love this uh then they’re like hey we’re gonna get certified i was like yeah right yeah and then crossfield comes in got my level one and i was like man it was like you know for coming from a background of doing absolutely nothing with my life you know and you know i’m not trying to burn myself down but at the end of the day i look back at my life and i’m like i really didn’t do much you know what i mean uh drugs cost me my son a a relationship that i love dearly with a woman that i’m actually back with now which is wow you know my high school girlfriend um you know it ruined a lot of things in my life just because i couldn’t stop the drugs and so then i was like man we’re doing something different and that level one certificate like i was like man i can i can succeed in this and then not only i can succeed i started seeing the guys around me and the 30 members that are in our program that were relying on us every single day to get coached up to get mentored and it was so much more than just you know wads right it was hey we’re here i’m here for you 24 hours a day you know what i mean which then i got my pure assistant training and so i was using that as a platform like hey if you after the workout if you’re still going through it just give me a call i don’t care if it’s two in the morning i don’t care if it’s like whatever there was one guy in particular my friend loco he’s local for a reason he’s a crazy ass [ __ ] guy um doesn’t get along with anybody we’ll fight anybody but he’s sitting there working out with these men that no right that [ __ ] those two like a white supremacist enemy right yeah they shouldn’t be working out together but they were and they love each other and they were just grinding and he was trying to get sober and the other guy’s trying to get him silver and they’re like we could do it together right you know and i would go over there and his homies like to give him the drugs before he locked down right he’s like all right so i would go over there a few minutes before nine right he’d call me over on a peer assistant i’d sit in the classroom and talk to him for a half hour which is a few minutes past lockdown and then so by the time he went back in the unit everybody else is locked down he could just go straight to his room and go to sleep yeah i didn’t have to think we did that for like months to try to get him sober and it worked you know and i was like man this is great but anyways so when we got our level twos i met nicole uh changed my life nicole gordon is just a beautiful woman she’s just an amazing human being like probably the best human being i’ve ever met um and so yeah we went from there and we expanded like he said he was at fremont with my friend trevor jones uh we expanded to four facilities wow in colorado in colorado we went from we started at lyman then i went to fremont um into arkansas valley to sterling and now we’re in nine we’re four official affiliates nine nine nine uh satellite uh well nine nine facilities in total uh the director wants it in all 18 facilities uh two women’s both the women’s facilities have it and we have 2 000 active participants with 70 people that have certified certificates through crossfit that’s certain 70 people that are hireable the second they walk out and then we have our non-profit which uh nicole quit crossfit to work with our non-profit not full-time and so we’ve been doing transition um anyways all that work uh i want to tell the story because i’d be a miss if i did not in 2019 we put on the very first competition ever inside prison ever anywhere anywhere ever heard of there was first for everything first crossfit program in prison official first time for people to get level ones i was there first time level two was their uh night 2019 december uh we um we put on the first ever competition and we brought 30 people from the street to be paired up with 30 of us yeah and so with that i met this lady violet i was randomly paired up with violeta chapin it was my partner we ended up taking first place that day um and then about a week later she called my case manager and said hey i have it on my heart to get you out of prison wow i’m an attorney that’s what i was gonna ask how did you get out yeah so uh that’s it like um she she works for the university of colorado um law school she’s a professor and she got her students involved and we wrote a clemency petition she happens to know every single person under the sun and you know i put in a lot of hard work like what i was doing with crossfit what my friends were doing like it wasn’t unnoticed and it’s contrary to like the prison norm yeah and so like they keep on telling me like no you did it and i’m like well you helped me you know like they all they did was the legal stuff right but they’re beautiful people i had three students that i talked to every single day on the phone for like four months i talked to via letter constantly and we petitioned the governor and then ben i met uh from wod prep uh but i can’t pronounce his last name and i’m not even gonna try it but it is it’s what preps his company he put me on his website saying hey this is a crossfitter and this is what he’s done with his life don’t take my word for it redisclaimancy petition and if you if you agree go ahead and click this link to the governor’s office and so they people did it generated like 200 emails wow people from australia like hey do i have to become a citizen to do this and like that’s pretty cool by telling me hey i want you out don’t worry about your community i know you built a strong community inside but there’s a community out here waiting for you and i was just like man and then the owner of crossfit eric rosa did the same thing put me on the morning chalk up with the same link they they did their variation of story i got to meet him in august of last year uh and he was just like look we got you and then what i was doing with the fast program which is fitness and sobriety training is basically like what the phoenix was up to like hey just get sober and i know fitness is a platform and not only are we going to get you sober we’re going to get you being a better person and we’re going to try to get you just so my that shifted my whole focus onto like okay i’m in a place where my sobriety is great august 11th will be 14 years and i’m just super excited that’s cool right let’s go summer birthdays man but i felt like i was in a place where i can take this knowledge and help others yeah because my life has changed drastically through the men and women that were around me and believing in me and showing me something different through fitness through mentorship accountability really yeah you know like i was messed up a little bit right like doing like you know gambling or something my buddy damian would be like hey really right that’s really what you want to do yeah you know this is really what’s going to further your you know yeah you know further you in life and i think you’re right yeah and it’s those that accountability that we saw that these gang members inside prison these drug addicts wanted they thrive for it they want to be told they want to be corrected yeah the problem is there’s no one’s correcting me like you’re not the man and there’s people not building trusting relationships like you are too which is really important because you go in there you foster the trust and then they’re like show me the way yeah you know and they they like it they see what you’re doing they want something they want something different in their life and they see that you’ve changed you see where you’ve came from and then they’re like okay well i want that too yeah how do i get there help me yeah and then when that people are like hey help me like i’m all in i’m like hey look and then the guys that aren’t like help me but you can tell they want it those are the ones i i’m all the time i’ll just go over like hey what’s up yeah how are you i’ll be the person yeah i’m that guy and so now with being free i got clemency uh the governor gave me in december uh but they made me go through the parole process still so like now you’re eligible for parole yeah that’s right so instead of being pro-eligible 10 years later later right so i had 60-year sentence for all that stuff i did and then i went back to court in 2018 got it down to a 48. wow and i was like oh man i could do this i could see the light yeah and before i thought i was gonna die in prison i was solely happy right i was like okay this is my life i’m gonna make the best of it and then in 2018 i was like oh wait i’m just gonna be old but i’m gonna get out yeah and then when i met violetta and i started doing these things and i was like wait a minute there’s hope and i i knew instantly like the beliefs that she had and me and when nicole and nicole was just like called me as soon as you get out and i was like that’s like 40 years from now but i’ll call you yeah give you a shout out don’t change your number and then yeah and then it just happened to be three years later that i’m like hey i’m getting out that’s why so i got out may 10th um hit up dan immediately dan and nicole are my two friends and i go work out with them um we uh go to church together we go work out cool man you know i went and met you guys like like literally like the second day i was out yeah i think it was like either day one or day two days that’s cool man that’s recovery you’re like come with me yeah so he was like hey you gotta meet these guys at peak and uh we met brandon yeah on vacation yeah uh which is cool yeah and uh had a great conversation with brandon i just was like man and what i want to do with my life is get people sober yeah through fitness fitness is a platform fitness is an avenue it’s a side effect you’re starting looking good right i lost 200 pounds doing it and i see the results in people and people feel good about themselves and they’re thinking about like hey what what are you going to put inside your body like am i going to eat this sugar i want a crumble cookie yesterday probably the best thing i’ve ever had i know right man i was addicted that was a problem i was getting them delivered my my friend bought me all these because she’s like hey you need every one of them yes really i’m something like this and i took a bite of one i was like oh my gosh yeah and so i ate one cookie and then a buddy of mine had just got out he was in waiting for the abs uh uh parade up and yeah i heard the kids in the background i was like perfect so i met him and his wife and his kids and i was like hey kids i got something for you these are delicious cookies because i can’t do them yeah because i think about those things now am i am i consuming the right things for my body yeah is it going to propel me better right but like i was telling you earlier like it all comes down to that stimulus pause response there’s a freedom of choice in the middle and i believe that you can change your life with that model yeah and it doesn’t just apply to like you know fancy help self-help books or anything else it’s like okay this is what’s going to react to me and how am i going to react to it yeah that’s what i was going to ask you to like me what do you think it takes to change your life but i think you guys have really illustrated it and explained it quite brilliantly it’s like it’s important for people in this world to have identity and purpose and that’s what you explain so well that like out of every corner through this crossfit stuff was another piece of purpose another piece of identity and um i guess i’ll kick it over to you dan what do you think is the recipe for people transitioning and even people out here in the community of which you’ve worked for the last few years of what is the recipe for success and i love the simplicity of using fitness as a platform because fitness i think speaks to most people absolutely yeah like like you’re saying like like getting back out from prison i think that fitness is huge obviously like for me when i got out i found the phoenix it was huge it was something i already knew and i was comfortable with so now it’s something i can latch on to when i get out of here and one of the really big important things i found with that that just came along was the community yeah it was the connection so now i have all these people that believe in me and they’re connected and i didn’t even like intentionally i wasn’t like oh i’m gonna go find a community it just kind of happened organically so it was beautiful and then like that’s like kind of one of the things i really try to do now is when people are getting out like i was i was the crossfit coach for parole for like two years so i know a lot of them so like i like to help write parole plans or like i love melissa barnett up there like uh she’s with the re-entry special i’ll go in and meet him with her and i just try to go in and help and like write out like you have they have a support if they are released to colorado springs you just like and then you have like a little things like transportation and work and just trying to help problems meeting those primal needs yeah yeah help with those that’s cool man i i love the support and what is it like for you jason because jason’s been a clinician in colorado springs for eons right since the 19th century um he’s been out here working moving and grooving and he’s worked with a lot of people that don’t have the story you do don’t have the reintegration story and quite frankly the story that you just told and dan’s story is like that’s the first one i’ve ever heard like that um and i want to hear more of them and it says there’s hope but what is it like for a clinician because oftentimes you don’t hear stuff like this i mean great question first i want to acknowledge like um that i brought my dad bond today and uh you guys are so fit he’s dad man yeah but check this out it doesn’t matter he was in my gym 6 45 this morning he’s been there for the last six months so let’s go in there yeah i like to say i’m trying to turn my dad bought into a father figure

father figure yeah but but in all seriousness like what i hear like i love that you brought up the community piece because i think um like the fitness is the platform but it seems like it’s the platform for community but i i wanted to ask you guys like um obviously people coming out of prison can carry a lot of shame for what brought them in there and like it can be hard to kind of reintegrate into the into the world and then people can carry a lot of shame about like not being in shape or not taking care of their body and how do you guys how do you guys meet people where they are as far as that shame well you want to go no you go for it so i’m told every day i need to forgive myself first right yeah uh there’s things like you know i just went visited friends who have like a boat and a house and you know beautiful family and kids we all went to high school together right my girlfriend has a beautiful family kids house and i’m like here i am 42 years old you know what i mean just got my driver’s license i’m by texting people pictures of it i’m like that he’s like check a friend of mine uh from prison actually gave me a card so i can use and uh you know i mean i but i feel like sometimes i feel shame i’m like man i’m 42 years old like this is the stuff i’m supposed to be doing i’m 19. and then my lady’s like hey forgive yourself uh find that you need to forgive yourself before you can even move on and i realized that like i had to love myself before i can ever get back to somebody else and that’s what like the process took for me so there’s a lot of shame yeah there’s a lot of guilt right like i look at my mom and i’m like hey look i’m really sorry i put you through all that right i’m not only sorry for the 14 years i was in prison and having to come visit me there but i’m sorry for the 14 years i was a dirtbag right addicted to drugs and just doing the wrong things and so that that weighs heavy on my heart like almost at all times like people say oh you got to forgive yourself like cool but it’s still there yeah and that shame and that uh like you know embarrassment almost is enough to like seclude yourself ins like you know get into your your own feelings and that can lead down a path where like i’m just gonna this is what i know this is all i’m gonna do best right and so for me when i see that in people and i see that they’re getting into those spots because i’ve been there you can’t let that rabbit hole go down too far because that’s where you spin off into relapse and you spin off into the old habits because it’s so easy to go on that easy road right but when there’s a mountain in front of you you want to go fast up a mountain faster right it’s hard it’s hard work but you can do it so when i see that i notice that i tell people like hey i went to see my friend mary yesterday she’s struggling and i’m like don’t don’t not be ashamed to pick up that phone if you’re struggling call me i don’t care day or night call me because your sobriety and your freedom is the most important thing to me and so with the transition line and people that are coming out of prison to know that there’s people that have been there before you like dan like i rely on dan like hey what do i do about this what about my parole officer what about this right and i have a friend named eric i text him like at five in the morning like am i doing this right dude it’s 5 a.m yeah come on man i haven’t had a coffee yet i’ve already worked out what are you doing

so but they were there for me dan’s there for me nicole’s there from there they’ve never said like oh hey i don’t got time for that right now and that’s what people like i feel need but here like hey no i’ve been there i’m keeping you please do it and get out of your head get out of your head because you’re doing great the reassurance that you are doing good and life is going to be hard my cell phone was the hardest thing i’ve ever figured out before you just flipped it open dialed a number oh this is great now i’m talking to my watch

everything has a passcode and i’m like what are my passwords so i got this note on my phone if i can get into it it has my passwords right because everybody wants a different password and i’m like worried about russian hackers and stuff yeah i’m just like okay get off the news okay no news news is not good but people walk me through it hey i like it figure it out yeah you know what i mean and so i think that’s the biggest thing yeah i mean having somebody meet you where you’re at communication you’re not alone and there’s people out there that maybe they haven’t shared experiences they haven’t shared prison uh but they’ve shared life yeah they’ve had real life problems you know uh while i was getting it all wrong i had these problems that are so dramatic you know people lose childs they you know like my girlfriend lost her child in a car accident i can’t imagine what that feels like i can’t imagine what people’s lives are like when they lose their house you know what i mean when the when the housing market falls what do you do do you do you do you go into uh uh addiction and that way or do you ask for help and you just i mean communication is key yeah community communication i love that man because what you highlighted right there is it’s like a tremendous amount of vulnerability and humility with people you trust yeah just ask for help pick up the phone yeah you don’t have to know him super well yeah right uh you just need to be able to say hey like i need help yeah and having that voice yeah speak up it’s really cool man how wild is it just be sitting here in front of these lights man you were just like days ago man and but it almost feels like man you’ve been preparing for this moment for a decade yeah for sure you know i think that uh i honestly think i have like um i never like you know when i there was a time when i was like i’m gonna die here in prison right and i was like all right okay this is it okay i can make good with this yeah i have a phrase like you’ve made your bed right i love that i tell people all the time like well he’s like oh man i got in trouble oh he made your bed like you shouldn’t have got up right that’s the thing right you make your bed every day yeah it’s either you get into a messy better you make it one of the two right and so it’s one of my favorite things so i always told myself that this is your lot you you chose this for yourself you worked hard for yeah you didn’t just didn’t just hand it to you i didn’t get screwed over right like i worked really hard for them to say hey look dude that’s enough really hard and they they did it they scared me they said hey look you’re going to prison for life basically for theft and i’m like okay i get it yeah it’s so interesting you say that it’s we say we had a client one of my favorite people that’s ever come through this program and i won’t mention her name but she had a a tattoo on her wrist that said it’s not about the dishes right because we’re always like dishes make your bad dishes make your bed new behaviors new rituals dishes make your bed rinse wash repeat it’s not about the dishes man it’s about you right to make your bed yeah i love that man that is so cool man well we are about 12 minutes over um i knew we were gonna do that yeah but it just really nice having you guys on here i’m really hopeful that we can get this episode out the people that really need it and i love that we have people in our community that are finding it necessary today to not be good for others but to be great and i think it goes a long way in showing people what this looks like and not necessarily telling them and then when they ask they’re all in and so you guys are just a great example of what recovery looks like thank you guys so much for coming on the show dan so grateful to have you back at peaks thank you i mean we are we are a better company um with you got with you on board and a better community with you out here in it last question um what does the future look like for you nick um recovery recovery uh getting involved um i’m currently uh studying for my level three crossfit oh cool trying to get farther than you can take out my plan is to take it like next month whether it’s or fail i wanna take it just jump in there um i’ve i’ve passed all the other tests i know the material i’m working at two different gyms right now um i love it my my future i went to florida uh they’re talking about the va hospital down there wants a functional fitness program to help uh veterans with ptsd um i know that i would like to own my own gym one day but i also like to be able to give back to people that are struggling so get a gym do similar things like hey sobriety come on in yeah you know work closely with the organizations that need uh that were just about recovery yeah if i can give back uh i don’t need to make a million dollars i just need to i to me i would like to just give back and uh that’s what i’m trying to do right now and that’s what i’m getting married have a family i love that man you got a really a real purpose-driven life today yeah um and don’t for one second forget absolute miracle yeah i mean just right here right now we are living within the miracle and i hope that we can celebrate that today special every day yeah really cool so thanks jason thanks dan thanks nick until next time your grateful recovering president and founder where i bring on amazing professionals and even better humans you got to meet them today thank you so much find us on your podcast instagram took talk tick tock brand ambassador until next time

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Episode 61Self Growth & Development With Kevin MillerWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/38tw6XxW1uAListen NowDescriptionWe are joined by a special guest, Kevin Miller, who leads a successful business and podcast, “Self Help(ful)” where they discuss and uncover the self-improvement and personal development wisdom you can take immediate action on for your own growth and fulfillment. This one-of-a-kind Finding Peaks episode is full of wisdom and lightheartedness we all could find value in.

Talking Points1. Kevin’s story 2. The challenges that come with work-life balance 3. The advice Jason and Kevin choose to give children for the self-development 4. Finding the balance between patience and pulling the trigger 5. Building resilience through the negativity 6. Kevin’s inspiration behind “Self Help(ful)” Podcast Quotes

“The aspect of personal development, personal growth, and bettering ourselves was just part of my family’s ethos, so I got to grow up with that. Amongst that going to conferences with my dad. Even when I went into other areas of life, that was always the interest.” – Kevin Miller, Professional Podcast Host

Episode LinksKevin Miller’s Website

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 61 Transcriptswell hello everyone welcome back to another excellent episode that you are about to watch on finding peaks here brandon burns chief executive officer of peaks recovery centers joined by a special guest today kevin miller podcast expert as i know him at least in this moment we’ll learn more with the podcast self helpful he’ll brag a little bit about it throughout the episode as well as talk more about it we’ll provide links all the important things so that you can find him on the podcast uh in the future and uh also joined today jason friesma chief clinical officer all things clinical joined on the program and before i maybe dive into my own introduction uh here as well too i think jason you want to say a few words about kevin um kevin i i do want to thank you for coming on finding peeks it is really a big honor because we are kind of a big deal and we’re you know fledgling i would say uh in our podcast endeavor um but i really wanted to you know kevin and i we were talking before the show we go way back i think we figured maybe 17 years or so um in in our lives have woven in and out of each other but um you know kevin for me you know as i was driving down this morning like i would be remiss if i didn’t mention like that uh when my son noah was 11 years old and um i won’t belabor this story but like he had a tumor in his head and it was by far this some of the most scary moments of my life occurred during that time and one of the things was is that the the children’s hospital in denver couldn’t help him or treat him and i asked him where where can he get treatment and they said vanderbilt hospital in nashville and i’m like make us an appointment never been to nashville never set foot in tennessee um and some somewhere along the way somebody called and said hey you know kevin miller’s family lives there and i called you and we we flew to your family’s house on mother’s day that that year of 2011 and they took us in for a month as we walked through the the amazing roller coaster that was that journey and um was so grateful to you and and to your parents for letting us in so um yeah i just want to start with that uh because it you that meant a lot to me it still does mean a lot to me if i talked anymore about it get choked up like i just really want to thank you for that kind of publicly i know i thanked you back in the day but my honor to be a part of it yeah it was awesome well in in and in lieu of that i think you know here at finding peaks we’ve we’ve talked a lot about well one the thing that i love talking about is disrupting you know the industry the behavioral health industry that we work in and i think as we’ve gone on and explored some of these episodes you know from you know the feedback from finding peaks at peaksrecovery.com continue to send us your ideas thoughts opinions but you know i can only uh you know point out so many ways to disrupt this and at times i think it’s important to learn from others about their own journeys their processes how they’ve grown developed you know businesses provided solutions opportunities like your podcast kevin and so forth and so we are expanding a little bit outside of this um to learn a little bit more i think about somebody who’s created something special and brings um a great deal into this world through his podcast through relationships that jason just described here as well and uh so i think today we’re in exploratory territory and uh looking to learn more from our friend kevin here uh and and see what we can take away from that in lieu of this concept of disrupting an industry before we find ourselves in those you know waited in those waters kevin tell us a little bit more about yourself um your podcast your inspirations your goals like how did you arrive in this seat with us today now i was born into it you just mentioned my parents yeah and um i i grew up in a home two parents who were very they really came out of their left their upbringings my dad was came from amish uh background and their pursuit of psychology of understanding and awareness was their salvation i mean it really was so i grew up amongst them being kind of guinea pigs with themselves and even me i probably took more personality profiles since you know before i was 10 than anybody has in a lifetime and so the aspect of personal development and personal growth and bettering ourselves was just part of my family’s ethos so i got to grow up with that amongst that going to conferences with my dad and even as i went into other areas of life that was always the interest i spent a long time as a pro cyclist and at the end of that ended up kind of developing an organization and saying how can we help people in all areas of their lives through this platform you know realizing if you have any platform where you have some expertise you’ve got influence and man the power of that and the opportunity that was immense and so i’ve gone through a lot of different businesses some that were just opportunistic some that i really cared about but they all really had the same threads of communicating people and kind of coming together and say how can we take a common platform and help each other grow and change and really how i came to the podcasting i was leading an organization helping people who wanted to pursue self-employment and at the end or as that progressed it was just it’s just personal development you know the the employment aspect was just a platform for their lives to live out what they cared about what they what their values were and that led has continued to lead me into at this point that’s all i talk about i don’t talk a whole lot about business in and of itself it’s it’s all personal development and even how you do that through your business and it’s that’s just what i it’s just the ideas that i like to talk about yeah yeah well you know for me you know in listening to some of the you know podcasts before you know meeting you in person here and uh coming on here that that there’s this just this balance that i never could have seen when i first started you know with peaks recovery centers uh in extrinsic intrinsic motivators on top of that work life balance as a new owner and excited to disrupt an industry and all these sort of things i was unaware of all of this language and all of this responsibility really at the end of the day and what i’ve learned in time is that there’s a great deal of responsibility within running a business within an organization namely yes we are positioned as an ethos to save lives at peaks recovery centers each and every day but we are also in a position where we will never succeed on in in such a high level ethos if we’re not nurturing the culture of the organization and the individuals within that and just curious through kind of your experiences and all the folks that you have met you know how often that comes up as a balance between um you know the the personal family relationships and then the responsibility to those relationships within any type of business setting yeah i’ve um i’ve struggled in that as i’ve always been self-employed and in my intent put family first and i really did that to a degree even to the point of sacrificing finances and i never forget a time when my wife she said look the best way you could save or or serve our family right now is just go make some money you know uh or or better yet i wasn’t so bad at making it i just didn’t keep much of it and uh you know so so that balance was one on the other side when you talk about the company culture i am i have suffered significantly from being the consummate project purpose goal-driven guy and not taking care of those around me kind of taken for not kind of taking them for granted in the pursuit of the mission and i have two organizations that i that did very well that i really drove down because of that and it’s made me look at how the type of business i want to have so do i become a better you know manager and whatnot or do i have a business where i don’t have to do that as much i’ve kind of gone that direction but you still have to employ people to some degree and it’s really caused me to kind of step back and and look as as business owners at what type of business do you want to have i got the unique opportunity to see my dad dan miller and dave ramsey most people know dave as the financial guru who were buddies together at the time of their demise and then kind of grew up together and now today both very successful and where they want to be and dave employs most of nashville i think and controls everything and my dad’s the exact opposite works primarily out of his house and has lots of people who work for him but it’s been interesting to see success and how that comes to people in ways that fit them well yeah yeah yeah it’s interesting and you know how did you work through that you know once you were aware maybe that you were putting too much into you know one bucket as opposed to the other like you know maybe you know bring us close to some of the the challenges for you in that moment and how you balance that because i find myself you know coming into like my household at times with my wife saying hey look the reason this is a little stressed right now between you and i uh is okay and important to go through because we have this opportunity over here and if we get to here then this is all settled in the background and there it seems to me like as a personal relationship there’s like a negotiating going on you know at any given time to get it right because it um it feels big at times to just want to go home and just really elevate this all of a sudden and then like maybe lowered over here but um it feels like more of a project to really get that balance right and curious what you went through to arrive at kind of this piece that you seem to have around

gosh that’s gracious probably um i i so often i don’t know if it’s a fair perspective but talk to figuring out ways to manage our dysfunctions and i think i say it that way because we you know in the industry of personal development and self-help we have that idea of you know you gotta overcome the weaknesses and as time has gone on i don’t know that i’ve overcome them as far as eradicating them but i have figured out ways to manage them so even to a degree you know to manage them and so even with work and family again i think i took on what my parents did and work was not such a separate dissimilar thing it was it was so much of i was fortunate privileged it was so much of of of who we are and what we do and what we’re doing at work is the same thing that we’re talking about at the dinner table and that really helped bring it together you know even today in my office is kind of like the hub in town where the kids come after school and they see me and i i had a kid sitting down one time and i was doing some intros and outros for the shows and he hadn’t seen it was one of the kids but i guess i didn’t see and i said dad i mean you’re like a rock star awesome well thanks man it’s great to have them see uh to see that and to be a part of that it’s where it’s not but you know it’s hard to have them involved in everything because yeah so much happens you come home at the end think how on earth can i get you guys up to speed yeah there’s a lot of times when i just don’t i just it’s just i’m i’m gonna set that down i had a friend one time talk about you know going into work and picking up that sword it was his terminology so i swore for work and then coming into his driveway and having to learn i’m going to put that one down and pick up a different one and i probably vacillate you know back and forth i have realized as my kids have gotten older i’ve got a lot of kids so i’ve got older ones and then still younger ones the i should have i should have known it from seeing it with my parents or experiencing it but the inspiration it is to them to see me doing something i am really inspired by that has been profound and so in that talking to them about work and what i do and the relevance of it in their lives is significant it feels it feels like a great privilege yeah honestly and that probably helps salve a lot of the things because there are the stressors that everybody has yeah you say balance that’s a gracious word yeah well in you know i went and gave a talk at uh university of colorado colorado springs a couple months ago i was invited in an email kind of didn’t know what i was stepping into i think i was in the social work department when i stepped in i think i thought it was going to inspire a bunch of clinicians to come work for you know peaks recovery at the end of the day and i walked in and i thought okay there’s a hundred students in this room and they’re actually looking for something to be said thoughtfully about their direction their growth their opportunities and i thought okay i need to change from my puffy chest coming in here disrupt pull in clinical people got to change my whole narrative and the best thing i thought to give them in that moment because i felt it in the room they were asking the panel really like how do i obtain my job what is the next steps to this and this sort of thing and the heartfelt thing that i thought was valuable to bring to them in that moment was you know you guys were about to step into a world and ask for your first job you’re about to step into an interview process and what does that look like and i want to let you all know that my best interviews are when somebody comes in and interviews us we’re on the table for the job we’re the ones who have to represent that this is going to be valuable and worthwhile for your effort eight hours a day five days a week 40 hours plus a week all that sort of stuff and if you guys can find what you’re passionate about and bring that in and be the interviewer in that process i i almost guaranteed to them that they would find like fulfillment in their work life and opportunities and see right away where the work life didn’t fit i share all of that because i got two fathers in front of me and i myself am not a father uh in this lifetime and for that i think that thing that i wanted to ask just through your experiences and certainly would love to hear your feedback jason is like you know uh what what advice are we given to the kids in this regard about how to approach these opportunities about how to find this gracious balance in life between work family and these sort of things out of these lived experiences that you’ve been involved with i mean i appreciate the question and and really um you know this this crazy journey of being a father is uh it is a challenge and um you know just always putting attuning to the kids seems so important attuning to whatever they need attuning to the conversations they need to have and helping them find their interests and helping them find not just their interest but like themselves seems what’s most important at least when i look at that and so um and being willing to have hard conversations and and lean into um just difficult situations and making sure that all topics lead to discussion rather than developing taboo subjects within the family system and i think um i’m certainly not going to give myself an a plus on that in any sort of way either but i do think kind of conceptually and i’m sure that does come from my clinical background as well but that is just conceptually how i think of being a father what about you kev i i had the fortunate opportunity of having some kids we had three and thought we were done and then realized we weren’t and had a bunch more and so i could see the mistakes i made with the older ones and go oh yeah that didn’t work let’s do this different over here and yeah that going from the you know in essence the the preaching to the just joining in a discussion and having questions and then what you said about you know looking at work has has continued to come up as i have older kids we look at the job we look at the opportunity we look at the pay we look at the title we look at that we don’t look at in 60 days who am i going to have been sitting next to all day long and in what environment is there a window what’s the noise like what’s the what’s the the ethos of the company what’s the atmosphere like man we don’t look at that and yet so often what drove or what attracted us there 60 90 days later it doesn’t matter if some of those core minute to minute things are in disarray and so getting to talk to the kids there and look at their quality of life and doing oh my gosh my dad wrote the book 48 days to the work you love you know and so working at something that you care about again i was given that on a silver platter and so talking with my kids uh about that now is so powerful even as you know i have a 17 year old who’s working at the local barbecue place cleaning out the grill and whatever he knows but it’s something he can do right now and others at farmer’s market you know doing things that they may or may not enjoy but they’re learning business which all the kids have done and kind of uh seeing that pattern out into as they get older to doing things that they that really again they don’t see such a separation between work and life if what they’re working at is a part of who they are and that’s that’s what i would wish for anyone it grieves me to see you mentioned you know the office and some of the things that we poke fun at the dilbert stuff and we were talking about retirement early and and the people i’m so privileged to know people who love what they do they the retirement’s not even they’re just looking at how they can elongate their lives so they keep doing it right and we have such a sea of people over here who do not enjoy their nature looking to retire which and when they do it’s generally not a good picture and man what a paradigm shift yeah absolutely we were talking before the episode that sometimes you know and the viewers know i get pretty puffy chests about disrupting this industry and uh you know brute force moving through it and highlighting problems with it without pointing at particular companies we could have some grace about this we’ve come our own journey you know as well too jason you know this we have been anything but perfect at times trying to figure out how to do this right how to provide better care and so forth and so as i shared with you guys in the beginning there’s ways in which i come in and i and i believe wholeheartedly on both ends of the spectrum that we can get this right and we can do this and on this side of it it’s like nothing’s in our way of doing it on this side of it it’s kind of a fear like maybe i’m making bigger statements than i can actually do like it starts to feel impossible the more and more i you know move out from the picture in that regard and um kind of you know bringing that or inviting that back into this discussion um are there times in which like maybe you felt like you’re a bit over your ski tips or a bit over the bicycle in this regard from your bicycling uh journey and adventures in life you know where you felt like maybe this is bigger than what i set out to do and if that’s true at all then you know how did you move through that or move past that or how did you you know uh who did you bring close to you to you know pull you through those moments yeah most the things were a little overwhelming but that’s what motivated me and again i was given such a gift to see my my parents my dad especially try so many things there’s a guy joe hansen he wrote the book the medici effect and he talked about entrepreneurs in there and it’s such a pithy little thing but it always stuck with me he says we find that they’re not great risk takers they’re not so brilliant whatever they just are willing to try more things than the average person and it stuck out to me and so i i’ve i’ve gone forward trying so many different things a lot of them that felt like i have no business doing this but i had faith that you know it’ll it’ll work out and if it doesn’t work out i’m not going to die and so would go after things but what you’re talking about i mean i i love the word disruption i’ve always thought of myself as a as a rebel but i’ve also hurt myself going that direction thinking what man what’s happening out there is it’s totally stupid that’s the dumbest thing we’re going to do it totally different and we’re just going to kill it and and in retrospect realizing that there’s some balance of being disruptive and there’s also a benefit of holding on to some of the tenants that we do know work um even like with you know in the online sales industry there’s some things that you want to disrupt but man if you get into a shopping cart in essence people are used to amazon if you go really left field and it doesn’t look kind of like amazon they’re just not going to buy they don’t trust it so just look like amazon in that part of it now maybe do something different over here and sell an actual quality product and whatnot so what’s that balance between disruption and some of the the norms that people are comfortable with and kind of kind of back to the old marketing thing of giving people what they want so you can give them what they need and you know it’s it’s a process and i haven’t always been so great in my efforts to disrupt in honoring some of the process and i can come in chest puffed out bull in a china shop and um and and just nobody has any footing so i’ve done that and so now what do i do i’m a little more patient i i tried i used to be so proud of the you know aim fire we’ll get ready later yeah and i still like that i still like crafting my life around that but like with my recent podcast revision it was a big decision i mean there’s a lot of money riding on it and so i was patient i didn’t pull the trigger and i and i sought more counsel than i probably ever have from from peers from you know beyond peers and even from my own audience and uh really tried to be wise and a little more patient i still love being impatient but in some ways at least for me relative to me yeah be a little more a little more patient and seek a little more counsel has been a big part of my growth as of late yeah yeah i love that because i and jason you know on my my uh linkedin page i’ve i’ve fired off a couple yeah you do like to be disruptive on that couple you know puffy chest moments but i’ve since doing that you know and also in reviewing you know a couple of your podcast episodes really recently as well too i thought i’m really coming new into linkedin as a market you know peaks recovery going back four years ago abandoned foot marketing principles we went all online which i’m super grateful for as a decision i think it’s powerful i think it gives us a you know a greater reach i think it has in a great way uh being in a studio like this led to a lot of our success along the way but in that way we’ve been silently growing and doing our thing and discovering ourselves and our processes in the background and the industry doesn’t really know a lot about us it particularly here in the state of colorado in a way that they really knew about us 2017 in prior because we were actively engaged with him in a big way and through that time experience i feel like you know in a way i’ve been you know some people told peaks to live the the ethics of the industry so we went and did that and then what happened i saw those people turn around and not live those ethics and it’s hard not to be you know resentful in hindsight of that as well too so again i got my linkedin page open and now i’m just finding myself staring at it i got a ton of things i just want to type in there and send and eat that world and take that and here’s your disruption you know and all those sort of things but um you know i’m just learning in the process through you know books and podcasts and other people who’ve done it you know before us that there is some important sensitivity to just kind of staring at the page thinking how do i want this message to come out how do i want people to receive this uh because it’s important that they receive it well if i’m going to do anything of the disruptive you know type in that regard and um you know i guess maybe that’s kind of in a way recapitulating i think a lot of what i received and what you just said but um is that kind of familiar to you as kind of like in your growth um and journey just kind of finding those moments to be more still and patient when you say or taking that step back when you talk about being patient daily honestly daily i’m so

recently i saw i’m in the middle of a book deal and you know there’s there’s timelines and whatnot and and i found myself a couple weeks ago looking in my focus i could get up in the morning i’ve got to finish this book or you know finish this chapter and had a i had a friend it was actually a class uh like a membership group that i have and but we do it’s kind of almost like a round table type discussion and i don’t know that they brought this to me but through what they were saying i extrapolated and it was you know who who am i serving who it’s again so pithy in elementary but who am i serving and so often i get my panties on the wad to go get this thing done pull the trigger and make it you know figured out and and don’t sit back who what was the point of this right i mean this book the point was a saturday morning i know the date and i was sitting there and it was just something on my heart to share with my older kids that i realized some things that i had not done well in in uh regretted being aware of some of my values and directions that i was going and i wanted this for them that’s where it started and to sit back thoughtfully and being present and kind of i just think i get my spirit right you know within it what am i doing this for whom am i doing this for why am i doing this take a deep breath and and that’s daunting to me honestly because i can realize how many hours days whatever i can just be plowing ahead and it’s not that i’m disassociated from my values at all but i can still go at it a different way and it’s really great having a highbrow editor who goes dude this doesn’t make sense you’re right i don’t know where i was when i wrote that thing and kill that and write something new and it’s brilliant i know i just but i that’s daunting to know that i can go i can go astray again not off of values morals and ethics but just in my communication and the heart of of what i’m doing so being drawn back to that yeah is to be the word that’s so

common now for me is just to be contemplative can i just and seek counsel those those two instead of just going ahead which is great if you’re a pro cyclist man it doesn’t matter what’s happening no excuses no limits man it’s just pedal to the metal that works there it doesn’t it’s it’s not what i have it’s not what i’ve benefited most from in my life and in my work as far as what’s most meaningful again i love i love disruption and and being a rebel and pulling the trigger and making things happen and some of that’s just fun yeah um but for what has been most sustaining it’s been through a more contemplative caring getting my heart right yeah aspect yeah you know i shared with uh you know jason you know this journey with you know my brother chris burns who’s also a uh an important host on uh these episodes uh also again team check him out on the tick tock follow his pounding of the heart and all that energy and just want to honor my brother there uh and we talked a little bit how i before the episode how i obtained this role you know and um of you know chief executive officer in june of 2020 around that time and i’ve been in this now for two years as a seat the company is eight years old chris was the six years before that and i take so much of his now he had i think a better heart about it in a way when i think about rebellion and that sort of thing i don’t want to say he was straight rebel he had a big heart for the process and the journey we were on but man he smashed through some walls you know and just blew things out of the water things like i would look at and be like oh we’re going to lose it all you know it’s moving way too fast we got to slow down but at the same time i can within this role i’m in alignment with what you’re stating about what is more sustainable you know having this balance this uh charitable balance between you know rebellion and taking a step back being patient yeah knowing your heart your journey but it was so important i think that chris was the beginning of this journey because i don’t think we would be here or we would look a lot different if i were in this if i were in the role for those first six years so yeah out of that just curious where sort of that rebellious feature you know you’ve seen in kind of reflection of it had had greatly worked for you because it is important i think to have that you know just point at the barrel and shoot you know and go for it and just curious about you know before you found or worked yourself into that balance where um you saw that rebellion really working for you or where it’s important to deploy that rebellion in hindsight you know maybe for the viewers or people thinking about how do i how do i bring this beast down but at the same time like i know i got to contain it at some point but where do i deploy it you know something around there yeah i i like the concept of that and i think i look more so now at seasons and cycles for things and there’s a season for the rebellion and the disruption to break things up and to create the opportunity and then there’s a season for okay now let’s figure out how to run this well and maintain this well and that’s not a skill of mine and i’ve had to employ other people there’s a guy i had on the show i’ve had him a couple of times jonathan fields his first book um i don’t remember the name of uh it was a really good book though uh but his second one is called sparked and he created this it’s kind of like another personality profile type thing but his is really just focused on work and what sparks you with work and i really like it it’s so simple and it was just so significant it didn’t surprise me but it was neat for me to see that i am they call it a maker i like a blank sheet of paper and an idea and let’s create a framework then i’m done that’s kind of all i want to do and so if that’s the case then i’ve got to have some other people with me to help balance that out again it’s elementary stuff but as as whether it’s entrepreneurs or just people even creatives you know to realize that i’ve got so many friends who are artists and they’re great at that breaking through and creating something like that and then they don’t know how to do another one or to keep their life going in the meantime or their family going or they don’t know how to sell it or run a business and these things sometimes i think we don’t see the most brilliant people ever come to fruition because they don’t they can’t get their crap together so we get so i’m a second-tier guy who maybe not the most brilliant but just enough to keep stuff together to bring it to market and yeah so looking at that i love the having to break through um the rebellion or or use the rebellion to break through we jason knows we built up a crazy house i almost was gonna bring this up actually it’s just a good example of this so we built a a straw a house out of straw bale so it’s a okay and you hear about that and you see these little homes ours is not a little home it’s a big it’s a big house it’s a 4 800 square foot box of first floor and second floor post and beam but then it’s infilled with straw bales and it’s totally weird it worked it’s really good insulation but it’s really weird i remember thinking like have you ever heard of the three little pigs yeah i know everybody everybody everybody says that but in doing this thing i mean i just thought man i bought the land i’m just going to build whatever i want to i was that naive and i realized no you don’t just go build whatever you want to in whatever city or county you’re in they’re going to tell you and we literally came to points where they said you cannot do that uh they wanted to make us put a a a like the weather shield kind of stuff around it you can’t do that these things have to be that’ll ruin it you can’t well you can’t do that it’s against code and so many times i’ve found myself in business since different places where it’s just it’s a hard no it but you can’t it can’t be it you can’t accept that and to realize that you can generally work through that and it’s and what a faith builder yeah i want people on the rebel side and the disruption side to realize man there’s really not anything that can’t be to some degree or to a great degree it can’t it it can be but it’s you’re gonna pay a cost you’re gonna i mean can you are you the type of person that can withstand that and that doesn’t need to be all people either i think i’ve gone through a time thinking everybody needs to be in that way thank god everybody is not that way because i’m good to get through to that point like to disrupt to get through but if we’re gonna maintain this thing we’re it’s gonna dive and i’ve done that again i’ve got i’ve i think for my book thing they you know doing the bio and i’ve started 19 businesses i’ve killed we didn’t do the number of how many i killed i mean i killed them because i didn’t do i didn’t i did i just did the disruption and rebel and got the opportunity going and it went boom and boom and there’s my trajectory with a lot of things yeah and uh yeah i’m i’m hopefully this podcast will be here in a year yeah you know but i i think it will be yeah absolutely and and uh you know pardon me again for you know listening uh being inspired by listening through but trying to collect the authors and so forth on the episodes that have um have come through your podcast and one of them again i was trying to before the episode talk about him uh he wrote a book success of something uh or a book around success but um what caught me in the episode is he said staff the liabilities and it seemed to really catch your attention yes that was a recent one yeah it was really recent yeah one of the one of the recent ones uh in that regard but it seems to be it seems to be a big part of kind of what you just communicated that yeah maybe i’m up here at times as the leader and maybe i’m just down in the flow but at the same time i’ve recognized through my rebellions that i can’t possibly do all of the things i wish to disrupt or without the inclusion of this team environment and so um just curious about how in that moment in the podcast you know kind of as a language um it seems like a lived experience for you and what makes sense for you around staff in the library oh my gosh yeah you’re totally right i’m i just am so regretful i can’t pull up who it was that looking at personality profiles uh a lot of people know that any of them dis meyersburg whatever but you look at your strengths and you know from a vocational standpoint especially you know i was i was really brought up and i’m grateful for and you you want to live in your strengths i mean i want to live as a kind of that maker thing i want to create something and i want to live in there as much as i can and i don’t really want to screw around with my weaknesses i just but i didn’t really look at staffing them and taking care i just didn’t want to deal with them i’m just going to go here and live in my strengths and that’s where we see my trajectory of you know a big win and then a big heck i was like that as a cyclist i was an incredibly mediocre pro cyclist and it would be on the podium one week and the next week i can’t even hold on to the weakest guy and uh and so this is a common common thing but you know looking at the at the strengths and i was just so focused on that and not so much on staffing the liability as this wise guy who i can’t call up his name um said and that has been i think a lot of regret honestly i’m uh i just had dan pink on the show he has the power of regret i had him on the show immediately well i know who dan is but because i’ve always felt like i’m not a no regrets person i’ve got a lot of them i’m grateful for the wisdom i have from them that’s redemptive and stuff but i look back man i hurt people i wouldn’t i’m not okay with that and there was a lot of that of not uh staffing the yeah the the weakness or whatnot and i uh and i have regrets there so when he said that it’s it stuck out to me as that’s where i am now and i’m literally at a point of employ i have more people i say employ not that i’m paying independent contractors primarily even from the you know the big publishing deal i’ve actually employed another big name editor because i want it to be great and they hold me accountable i got to show up for the deadline which is good for a guy like me and they help me see what i’m i’m missing and i haven’t been there before and i’m having more success now than ever it’s a consummate story but i look back and i’m i have some regrets of how long it took me to staff the liability in my life and i would say that’s past work that’s even into my parenting and marriage and yeah we can go across the board with that one okay well i appreciate that feedback and um i’m glad that uh or i’m i’m glad to see in a way that i got the same uh you know sort of uprising of excitement or um focus on in the way that i heard in that podcast moment as well too it’s cool to be a part of this with you and experience that passion and you know one of the things that’s coming up for me as well too and i think inevitably i want to take this home and talk more about uh the self-helpful podcast a little bit before taking it out for an exit but um so much within a work environment what i’ve learned over time and i think it’s a common learning experience for a lot of folks is you know the first things i dealt with in our work environment the negativity i received was like at a conference talking about an ethics or something and the negativity as an or the negative experience would be like oh man we’re not doing that i think we got i got to get that right i’m going to write that down to take it back right and now like within this role as a ceo and certainly as a chief clinical officer probably taking more negativity from the patient demographic not because they are intending to be negative with us but because they are suffering as individuals and for that reason their strategies become external rather than internal they pointed all the things in front of us and with each and every passing year i think i’ve got resilience you know we can have a patient a few weeks ago like oh i’m gonna you know sue peaks or something of this nature right they have aggression they have discomfort they want control and power and ways in which they don’t have it you know when we walk through those moments and i can hear those things well now and i can walk through those moments with patient journeys you know at the same time this week all of a sudden we’ve deployed so much effort into quality programming around saving lives disrupting industry deploying our core values and what came up this week jason the landscaping of all things i have never in eight years i have never heard somebody say you know what’s wrong with this place you know what i can’t stand here the landscaping and i think and i’m like awesome partly devastated by it because we’re putting so much energy into these projects to empower them and now it’s like this new sort of negative feature and so for all of the things that i’m learning and for all the ways i i think i’m building resilience like these little tiny frustrations that you know we receive from our patient demographic become really big things and i find myself like did we arrive eight years into this to lose everything over landscaping you know here at peaks recovery centers and curious from your experiences because no doubt in different ways you’ve been poked at or prodded at you know um you know maybe negativity is a strong word here but you know probably in your experiences you experienced what felt like negativity and then over the course of this journey that you’ve been on you know how do you find yourself building the resilience moving through it are you are you seeing somebody like jason on the side you know is it is it a spiritual journey you know what is it about your path that allows you to show up even in moments of which like wow this is seemingly fairly negative and i didn’t know this was going to happen today goodness that’s a big question

i have not been in tune to the negativity as much as i i wish i had more there’s a you know story told of you know earthquakes and hurricanes and tornadoes get all the press but there’s a lot more damage done throughout the year by by by termites it those little little things and i’ve seen that like being resilient i think i’m resilient until i’m not till the day comes and i’m not man coming to my own end i mean yeah if you want to get personal do i yeah i i have counselors and that i’ve come to because i thought i was x and i was capable and resilient whatever until the day came or the moment came and all of a sudden i realized i’m not man i’m at my end this is new and you know you don’t experience it until it gets acute enough to experience it i mean this is your business and looking at that you know now i i am much more i’m learning to be much more attentive to those little things that they build up i mean i’m i’m involved a lot in the health and wellness industry and you know again you’re usually going you don’t all right today we go man i’m smoking you know 10 packs a day and i haven’t had cancer yet i’m not going to until all sudden i do and then you know game over possibly i don’t want to be i don’t want to be there so what am i so again back to being you know present what are the things that are what are the rubs today what are the things that are stressing my resilience am i okay with that or am i just enduring through the day and getting past it but it’s gonna build up and man that accumulation we just had a show on age and ageism and not dispelling the craw the the the relevance of chronological daily aging but it’s not really the age it’s the wear and tear it’s the same thing we see with the cars it doesn’t matter if it’s got a hundred thousand miles on it it matters on how it was driven over those hundred thousand miles it may have another 300 mile thousand miles or maybe toast and and there we are whether it’s our health and wellness whether it’s our emotional uh capacity whether it’s our business health and i have not stayed attuned to those little things again i’ve done well in my role but i have you know and in that i would say in that am i going to be the guy that notices those small things probably not okay so that’s why i employ and i can you know give the list of people who are contacting me you know today and and even have the thought i recently just you know tasked somebody i go look at the stats what’s happening we made the name change where is everything going i can’t even figure it out i don’t want to figure it out i did have the thought to have it figured out i’ll pay you to go figure it out and let’s make sure a termite’s not eaten away at that so you know the wisdom that comes with i some of it i i get i’ll take credit for wisely maturely coming to but man so much of it i came to when it got acute dang it

yeah well thank you for that i you know but so much of it’s it’s uh it’s been such a journey and jason has been just as much a part of the growth of our organization as anything with an ownership title these sorts of things um just been a tremendous asset so i know it resonates too yeah for the room in general to walk through our growth experiences our rebellion moments you know all of those sort of things and i think you know i got into this business and i think okay yeah we’re going to save lives we’re going to do this and then it becomes about you know the landscaping on you know one day and i would just a great story and the reason i appreciate your your shared journey with it as well too is so many young entrepreneurs so many people who experience that rebellion and wanting to disrupt and there’s so many things we can disrupt in this world positively speaking in that regard that aren’t aware of the potential you know lacunas and tripwires and things along the way that they’re going to experience whether it’s the balancing of you know employee relationships at work while also being attuned to the responsibility maybe we share as an organization for individuals livelihoods at home maybe it’s the landscaping these small little things you can’t see along the way that people are going to throw at you that you can’t experience but in a way lived experiences and showing them that these opportunities can be obtained and to just be aware of these things because we have the experiences of learning them in real time through our you know uh our rebellion you know type attitudes and so i think these these shared stories are just so important for people looking to inspire their own growth journeys whether within a company or being their own entrepreneurs and uh you know kind of bringing it full circuit i said how i desire to kind of you know take this out with you today i wanted to talk a little bit about you know self helpful from your perspective and what you’re trying to because i know you brought several podcasts together into this one what was what were you seeing in these uh alternative podcasts that were like you know what these are good but i think they go together you know better as a blend or what what inspired and brought this journey together ultimately for this podcast that you’re working on now and also with that shared experience what are you hopeful that people are receiving from your podcast what do you want them to walk away inspired of or attuned to or what is that experience you’re that that ethos you’re really trying to deliver yeah some of the questions are just the response is looking at the podcast industry talk about a place of disruption it’s still such the wild west of things changing and me looking at it and i started a while ago and things were kind of static and um i mean my i was fortunate to have some success early on with it but you know i had this show called the ziggler show it was based on zig ziglar’s teachings and there’s a story behind how that happened but so i took that on and it did really well and then i co-founded a functional medicine practice with a friend of ours yeah yeah with a friend of ours and he and i are constantly talking about and we were talking about health and wellness but the same thing he’s on the other side of the wall talking to one patient about how to change the trajectory of their life and change their health and wellness and i’m on a microphone tens of thousands of people talking somewhat similar but they’re both subject to our ability to inspire the person to do anything all the all the information he can give that person is still dependent on them walking out the door and them doing it same thing with me on their microphone but we’re talk having these conversations man that’d be a great podcast so we started this separate podcast because it was a little outside and that was a true live podcast and then i get this inspiration for a book and a book deal and thought okay let’s let’s do one there and i’m doing three podcasts and it’s just it’s still me it’s still me it all overlap so some of it was that and just the the structure of of that but also looking at podcasting and what do people want kind of back to that thing what are they if i want here’s what i i want to give them what they need i want them to do this but what do i give them what they want and you just mentioned story and that is not my natural i’m not a storyteller okay i just don’t i’m a bullet point guy okay i don’t have a whole lot of patience for stories i mean i like a good movie yeah you know but um and that’s that’s not what people want on a podcast they want to hear the stories and i’m getting irritated at somebody deviating off here and i’m like let’s get back to the point that’s not what people want they want to hear the story they want to hear the rabbit trail they want to hear the context because that’s what they relate to i mean it’s stereotypical stuff but i wasn’t doing that well so it was me stepping back again and going now what do people want asking them looking at the things that are working well talking to peers who are in the industry right now and saying how can i best so i have this thing that i want to deliver how can i best do it and that was looking at best business practices in some sense that was not a disruptive thing you know now on the disruptive side though so with self-helpful which was i mean even from the name to the graphics to everything we’re out there playing the game how can we do well to get people to see this notice that download the show but now in the show what can i do so i it’s interesting i i did a stand-up desk i had a custom natural wood stand-up desk for my studio so i’m i’m up well it won’t be in a minute okay hold on because i got an awesome he just got one no i like the i have that at my regular desk and so but i had at the podcast i thought man it’ll help the energy man i’ll be i’ll be on it i now have a stupid tall stool at my podcast so that i’ll just calm down we had a guy said it sounds like kevin is just like the adhd poster child because i’m just i i get i get going so i need to drink a glass of wine if i could think clearly just to give calm down take a vine and and chill out because people don’t want the fast pa they want us more slow contemplative and i’m getting better feedback from that so it’s even changing you know my style and and getting more into the story now i do have my points though i mean i i spend a lot of time and i and i pull out i had a guy on today and his uh tyler merritt he has a video if you look it up it’s called before you call the cops so he’s a six foot two dreadlocked black guy and it’s it’s talking on racism but i didn’t want to really just focus on racism we’ve kind of we’ve done that so i really wanted to talk about marginalization and stereotyping that is relevant to pretty much anybody but white american men for the most part you know everybody’s experienced that and so i get to take it down that path and so even as we veer whatever i i know i have the avatar of the people that i’m talking to that i knew that i want to serve with this message so i can bring it back and weave that and that’s something that’s important to me because it’s not just a willy-nilly show to go off and end up talking about landscaping or greenville or couches or something i do have a point here and that’s my responsibility and my joy and opportunity you know in the show so that’s one piece of it and then a new piece of the show that’s a little bit of a disrupter it’s different is looking at them is not just a one-shot deal so tyler i had him on today we recorded and you’re gonna hear a part one and it’s talking about that main message of marginalization and stereotyping and then there’s going to be a part two where they hear behind the scenes what are his values in these key areas of life what are his habits amongst those it’s really a personal thing people i’ve actually tried to discontinue it and people really like hearing it they love hearing the they resonate with that and it almost always brings in aspects of their person’s core message because that’s what they’re about and then i do a third part on this on that person with someone else though with a peer in essence a co-host and we’ll talk about that and hear it so if it’s especially if it’s on health and wellness i’ll talk to randy james dr randy james and he’ll say yeah this is how this is working out or what i’m dealing with my literal patients and so the people get a three-part series because i think we need more than just a one shot of this great message and then we go on to the next one and we’re in such a consumption society i do it too i want the next book the next show the next whatever instead of realizing no that’s actually so significant i should probably not read or listen to anything but that for the next year so that i actually make some kind of a change so i’m trying to address that by giving people a bit of a series so it’s again playing with that give them what they want but then i think that they would be served best we know statistically repetition helps and engagement and whatnot so there’s the tension the balance however you want to call it yeah no i appreciate that because i’m gonna walk away with a lot of that you know when i when i sit in this host sheet host seat one of the things that i think is so important is there are so many there’s so many uh illnesses within our industry that just don’t work that are profoundly inappropriate at times and i want to empower the family systems you know that are you know gonna sit down for an hour 20 minutes however long these episodes go for to go okay that’s good information my loved one’s suffering colorado’s too far from me but i’m going to call this facility and i’m going to give them what brandon burns just told me to ask in that regard but at the same time you know i always joke with jason like i’m a better host jason’s kind of a host you know and chris and we we challenge each other in those ways but you know to the point you know these two guys are getting a lot more love and appreciation and following i don’t take that personally but what i take away from this as well too is just how do i bring the story closer like these illnesses i talk about it’s one thing to throw the rock at it and break the mirror right it’s another thing to say let me describe what a patient journey looks like up until this moment and why it’s inappropriate and you know for me that’s just positive feedback and another way that i can nurture this seat you know that i’m sitting in so i greatly appreciate that uh to take this out uh on uh in a way is to kind of steal an outro that i can’t remember the name of the podcast forgive me out there if this is like your shtick uh at the end but what i thought was cool about the end of it and why i’m compelled to do it here is you seem like a uh you don’t seem like a person you are the person who i experience is reading many books meeting many people and be inspired by many things and so one of the outros of this podcast uh is that he asked the person to recommend three books uh in that regard and uh before we plug your show at the end of this i’m curious about which three books you would recommend to maybe the audience here at finding peaks that’s led to where you’re at that you know maybe in time has worked for you or that is more working for you today but maybe three books you can give us to kind of go peruse in the background that inspires you it’s the worst question ever okay i’ll try to do that i get that i i i do i get the privilege of so many books and every book to me is pretty much a nugget something that just resonated rocked my world and i’ll remember that and not remember the book but you know historically there are there are a couple you mentioned donald miller and now i’ll never forget reading his book a million miles in a thousand years about what makes a good story he goes through he actually went to uh a script writer famous scriptwriter yeah and okay okay yeah yeah and what makes a good story a character who wants something and overcomes conflict to get it dude that is a philosophy of life right there we look at what matters to us what matters to other people uh was so significant and just what is living a good story i i literally bought cases i had a business at the time and i gave those books uh away and i still appreciate that and again it was it was a nugget he has a whole book and i a couple things stuck out to me that have been uh that have really been anchors um i’m on the i say the spiritual side but it’s really a life side is uh dallas willard i’m a big fan of and his you know spirit of the disciplines is one i tend to go back with honestly one that i have probably referenced uh more than others and it’s a it’s a little outside of left field for even my audience somewhat is anthony demello he has a book called it’s either aware or awareness and he’s uh i think he’s a jesuit race dead now but jesuit priest and philosopher and might have been a psycho i think you know he’s a psychologist too and um it is one of the most blatant call you out books that i have ever read a matter of fact i heard about it from tim ferriss the four-hour workweek guy i don’t know i don’t even listen to the guy but somehow i heard i i heard it from him and it caught my eye and that is one that i continue to go back to yeah it’s a hard question because it’s such a disservice because i read so many books and i get so many life-changing pieces for me that i relate to you know over and over and over that to say one book is so difficult that i don’t recommend books a whole lot unless somebody has something and i have something that’s really acute yeah i have a hard time um recommending books but the ones that i go back to um i’m really into a guy named terry real right now psychologist and his books he really specializes in guys and he’s kind of rocking my world i love the ones that disrupt me back to your term i love the ones that disrupt me i mean we all like to be confirmed and i like to read confirming things but the ones that disrupt something and i see something hasn’t been working and you just called it out i just there’s nothing more exciting than i get that in these shows i mean working today with you know talking today with tyler merritt he’s talking about you know race and i’m in the privilege privileged white guy and i have a lot of ignorance and lack of confidence i think in that realm and he really helped me see some different things i’m writing notes i’m right again it’s free therapy yeah what a great job i appreciate that and before i do our little uh outro piece here i think into the camera sell us on self helpful when is it out when is it one of the episodes come about all of those sort of features maybe the book when it’s coming out uh self-help i mean if you go into apple or wherever and type in self-help or kevin miller uh it’ll you’ll you’ll come up with it self-helpful i think self-helpful.co just goes to the apple page but you can find it you can find it anywhere we post on mondays wednesdays and friday is functional friday you may talk with my buddy randy james when we talk really to health and wellness specifically but the mondays and wednesdays and it’s always a serious you’re gonna see a part one part two part three with each guest with each topic it it’s something that i wish that i had in some of the other podcasts that i listened to where i hear this incredible message it’s just one and gone and i want i want more so i get to go and just find the person and get them on my show which is what i’m doing now yeah um but that’s where we are social media same thing i think everything’s at kevinmiller.co or kevin miller ceo on instagram and all that kind of stuff okay title for a book or things do you want to lead to the future thanks i forgot about that it’s called what drives you okay and it’s really looking at honestly drive and we’re talking about marketing it’s a good hook uh people want to be driven and we’re looking at that but it’s ultimately bringing people to question what are their values in these key areas of life and it will probably be out in the spring of next year 2023 okay yeah very cool well kevin miller so nice to meet you in person to go from the audio version of you to the in person same voice it’s true jason thank you so much for making this possible bringing kevin miller your friend on with us today and for all the viewers at home we hope that this was uh impactful in some way if anything i think through the lens of you know folks who’ve gone through some trials and tribulations within businesses and hopefully at the end of the day as well too we can inspire a bit of your journey on the other side of this and also maybe leaving you with some tones of you know things that we have to work through to you know kind of be in a room like this and have this shared experience together so let’s keep hope alive out there thoughts questions ideas opportunities finding peaks at peaksrecovery.com love everybody’s feedback continue to find us on the twitters the facebooks the instagrams all the things the kids are doing the tick tocks above all as i mentioned chris burns our founder pounding his you know recovery heart each and every day on that journey and inviting you all to continue that journey alongside him um and i think that’s good brandon burns signing off here from finding peeks and we’ll see you next time

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Episode 60Repairing Families at Peaks RecoveryWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/1NjP2R-LW3sListen NowDescriptionHow do you heal the family within addiction treatment? In this episode, we connect with Pema White, MSE, CAS, LPC, one of our primary therapists about recovery and how she is continuously building our family program to provide the best support for the surrounded family members of the individuals in our care.

Talking Points1. Pema reflects on when she first started at Peaks Recovery 2. How Pema begins the journey of family recovery 3. The educational aspects of Peaks Recovery’s Family Program 4. The Family Workshop Peaks is developing Quotes

“You can’t just teach a skill, you cant just present something and say good luck. There has to be some integration of it. And that’s where the magic happens. This is where our clients are at most risk for relapse, this is why we have IOP because there needs to be that extra support. But there is also relapse for families. So for families that are learning these skills as well…so the workshops are about the practical aspect, putting it into action, families have had some experience now.”– Pema White, MSE, CAS, LPC, Primary Therapist

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 60 Transcriptshello and welcome to another episode of finding peeks i’m jason friesma chief clinical officer at peaks recovery joining me today i have a very special guest pema white um primary therapist moving into a in a a family role with peeks actually she’s been in a family role for quite a while uh running our family education support group on monday evenings and then recently uh pema has uh agreed to take on uh providing family workshops for our clients in person now that uh covet is over but uh before we talk uh about that i did just wanna kind of introduce you in a different way i know you’ve been on the show before but you haven’t been on here with me so i get to to kind of talk about you for a second

i remember pema getting your resume because you have such a unique name and uh actually pema shodren is a favorite author of mine and so uh immediately your name stood out um for that reason because those are the only two pemas that i’ve ever known and um immediately i was i appreciated your calm and your and your just your spirit immediately and and and you brought to our clinical team um uh a great presence and then with that um a great deal of uh background in working with families and working with families in pretty significant crisis uh through a variety of modalities like we were talking about before the show and i think um and somewhere i i can’t remember it was probably about a year ago i think alan cook and i started the family meeting but once ellen had to move on to hawaii poor guy but you were willing to step into that role and really take that family program and begin to elevate it and and and so i wanted to thank you for that but also uh that is pretty naturally now folded into um doing some family workshops in person uh so with all that being said um as you came on to peaks and and it’s been a little while so i’m asking you to kind of reflect back a little bit but what did you begin to notice about families and what families needed um as their as their loved one was coming into the peaks program um i think the the first thing that i noticed was that they very much needed to be heard um that you know i i don’t think i realized and understood what component they they played i was moving out of like the family as a unit the family as a relationship like the family as my sole focus and so i had to be very attentive to everybody and then moving into individual um you know it was almost like oh this is i got this i went from you know sometimes five people in a room to one person in a room um you know and it was so new and overwhelming and i think it was just really easy to focus on the individual and say oh we just have a client here um and we just need to get our client to this place and then you know someone else will take over i guess in some magical way um and then immediately started working with the families and realizing that my background um just really doesn’t allow me to forget that there’s a family that there’s a system um a wife a daughter a you know a mom you know a dad uncles even um and so you know and sometimes just brothers it’s really cool when you know a brother shows up and he’s like i’m not gonna let this one go um and uh and so um yeah like i think initially it was it was definitely like i they had a lot of pain um that it was really wasn’t so much about the client it was about their pain it was their relief that they were there and a need to be heard and a need to be acknowledged for the pain they were carrying the trauma of addiction the trauma of mental illness on a family and um you know and that in turn looks very different you know in some families it looks like a lot of blame and a lot of shame and a lot of criticism um and i you know often try to redirect from that of like this is just what we’re focusing on this actually comes from a place of hurt and fear um and then some families would just you know want to give information like can you do you got an hour because i have all the information you need to know so that you can you know see my person um and so you know and again still fear and hurt i think they all came from that place and and and then i can imagine um that it’s really difficult to meet someone new and have to like lay out all of the family history to this new clinician who has likely 15 minutes to to listen to you before they move on to the next um thing i think i think that’s a huge challenge and and you know to put it pretty succinctly i’ve certainly you know there’s a phrase going around for a while and i don’t even know who coined it but that addiction is a family disease and i would i would say mental health is a family uh disease as well and you know you and i have a very similar background we’ve worked for the same company prior to peaks different time frame but um we had plenty of opportunity at least i did and i’m sure you did as well of seeing you know a person an identified patient if you will taken out of a family taking a treatment do their work and then plugged back into an unchanged family that isn’t a great system for sustainable change for anyone in that process and so

beginning to wrap around families what what strategies have you used uh in peak so you mentioned family sessions yeah how do we how do you incorporate those into into how you work with clients um well i um i first i gather information you know so i’m listening to families and i’m working with the client um and a lot of times they want that to happen immediately but we generally put that on hold um just because it takes a minute um for clients to sort of you know disconnect and they’ve arrived in a state that they likely need to disconnect um and so you know usually within the first few weeks we’ve gathered enough information to get an idea about um what the at least from the client’s point of view what their struggle is and and maybe from the family’s point of view what they feel like the struggle is um and so then we can come together and say okay we all agree right on this one thing maybe a few things um or if we don’t agree then let’s let’s start that process right like let’s get some goals um because in in residential care there’s at best like three family sessions like that’s in the best case scenario we probably you’re doing three sessions um sometimes a little more sometimes a little less and um and so i you know have to i feel like i always have to strategize of like we have this much time and then we lose them like they’re gone yeah um and we just cross our fingers and um and so that that first session is about you know identifying progress i want to build some hope for the family that seems to be like one of the most necessary processes of walking into that family station and saying hey i want you to talk to your progress i want to talk about you know what you’ve learned here so far and what you’re working on and you know what you plan on addressing while you’re still here so the family gets this idea of like okay my my person is safe and my person is addressing some of these things that you know they are here for um hopefully these underlying issues so we’re not just talking about you know i need to stop doing what i’m doing um it’s i need to look at these things that keep me from you know walking into a healthy life and um and then we um hopefully have some um time to talk about um the family’s struggles just to kind of hash out some of like the whatever they’re carrying as resentments or concerns or fears to be addressed because it’s not it’s not a great system that if you walk out of treatment and feel very hopeful and feel very healed in a lot of ways to step into um you know what i call darts i think uh i tell people all the time like they have some reasonable darts you know it’s fair that they feel this way it’s fair that they have these resentments and um you know and it may not be so about you but they’re probably going to come at you because it feels very raw for the family and you know and i’m and i try to help our clients you know my clients see that they’ve had this runway so to speak that they have had this time and treatment and this surrounding of support but their families generally haven’t um and so they are often you know a couple steps ahead um and they expect their families to just sort of magically arrive there with them and that’s not what happens it’s not even you know reasonable to think that they’re going to be there um usually the families are put on pause and then you know they see their their people way ahead but they they’re still holding these darts they’re still holding these resentments and um so i want to try to at least get one session in to be able to talk about that and why that needs to be resolved or have a process of resolved and then hopefully by that you know kind of third session we’re talking about relapse prevention and so i’m given some information on what relapse looks like um you know affirming that everybody relapses they don’t all look like this kind of end result of relapse but that they’re going to experience anger or triggers in some kind of way and they’re going to feel activated and that’s when the family can do something and so hoping to get a client to talk about like what they need from their family um in those moments how it’s been different than you know we used to do this now let’s do this so we’re talking to like kind of family patterns and um and then once we look at that family pattern and how the the client themselves can shift that either by communicating or um you know taking some time whatever that looks like um then it’s you know kind of the family’s opportunity to say this is what we need um and so hopefully we’re now having this conversation that is um moving forward you know building this skill of i’m feeling a kind of way and i need something from this and how can we come to an agreement now and in the future um when you are in you know at risk where we don’t all fall back into our old patterns well i think you bring up you bring up such a good point too that in a residential setting of you know 30 to 45 days we don’t have a tremendous amount of time uh or hours to really navigate systems that have been in place for often times decades and even if it hasn’t been decades like it’s difficult to unwind some of that which which kind of led to us kind of starting this family support meeting on on monday evenings and we also have one on thursday evenings as well um

what has surprised you about that meeting let me start there that so many people are coming yeah like i think i i knew that people needed support and um and i think that i just it was surprising that um without that before we had that in place um sometimes it was hard to connect with families sometimes they didn’t have time sometimes they you know we’re just feeling so much um you’re feeling so overwhelmed that you know it’s really it’s a good surprise it’s a really pleasant surprise to see so many people coming and returning yeah um yeah and then what do you

there’s obviously this educational component and so can you maybe just do an overview of what you talk about in there i know it’s you put on a six-week rotating uh curriculum i think that um you know so we we try to address things that we have seen have come up as themes um you know and and that’s oftentimes like uh you know i’ll make little notes along the way in the curriculum be like this needs to be changed or you know oh that was a good question let me add that in so i try to keep it you know kind of a living document and at least in the back of my mind sometimes in my notes to like remember to address these things that that come up but generally we talk about how to set boundaries in healthy ways you know how to really take care of yourself as a family support person i think that that’s a oftentimes surprising aspect of the family support group that you know when families show up i think they kind of have this expectation of i’m going to learn some magic about my person and what my person needs to do and then they find out that it’s actually about you and what you need to do um you know and and and then another surprising aspect is people are like oh okay yeah oh that makes sense and note to self um that my person’s recovery is about my recovery um and that the family recovery and you know and how to integrate some of those things and um we talk about you know i think just giving that education of like what relapse looks down looks like breaking down and you know in intense steps sometimes and what addiction and dependence looks like and and really breaking down you know depression and anxiety and how it’s this underlying um you know factor that drives you know these dysfunctional patterns and um and then i think a lot of it is really just support for each other i think i i see a lot of people really just sign when they hear other people and saying yeah same what she said what he said um and i’m not alone and this is common and you know and that i think it does two things at once helps them feel connected with people that they had no idea existed um and then two i think it kind of reduces some of the shame that a lot of family members feel because they know things have not been great and they might not have acted great and no one really wants to talk about it when we’re not acting great um but then when they hear it like oh this isn’t me not acting great this is a very typical response to trauma and addiction and and i just fell into a pattern that is natural and normal um for most people well i mean i was going to ask you about the communal aspect of it and you touched on it there i certainly find um you know we talk often about how addiction and even mental health are very lonely uh in uh diseases or uh when people are in active addiction or actively depressed or actively anxious it creates this isolation even even if there are people around or even if it seems like they aren’t necessarily isolating like it does create this great loneliness and great feeling of like um well i’m just by my i’m on my own and in this parallel process families feel much the same way often times due to shame and and um maybe not wanting to talk to people or not knowing who to talk to or or having friends or family who don’t understand what’s going on in the family and so they continue to shrink their world down and i was always amazed when i’ve when i’ve helped facilitate those uh meetings with the families is almost like you said a lot of people are saying yeah me too and i get it and same with me um it’s it’s always struck me how surprising that is for people that they aren’t alone yeah and and by definition that’s kind of shame right that if i think i’m the only person who feels this way i think i’m the only one that feels this desperately about my loved one or i think i’m the only one that um has been lied to over and over and i can’t give up on my person or i think i’m the only one that um has paid off a drug dealer or i’m the only one who’s gone to my kid’s house and pulled them out of bed but really or i’m the only one that kicked my kid out because they were using and that makes you know like yeah whatever that response is is there must be something wrong with me because i’m all alone here yeah and we know we know just from talking about shane that that is exactly what exacerbates it and then and the solution for it of course is just being able to talk about it and what i think are what our evening programming and it is just for families like that group our clients don’t attend it’s just it’s just a place for families to kind of come together get some education and also uh offer one another some support and it is a powerful space for sure and then so then we had this other realization well you did and and you came and talked to me about it and it is that um the families are engaging in this program our clients are engaging uh in our inpatient program and then uh we have an iop program in colorado springs and in denver and uh clients are transitioning to that and and the families are just kind of

uh left to go use community supports how about that and um and then you’ve designed uh kind of this uh kind of a workshop to help uh families integrate with one another again and i’m wondering if you can kind of give us a preview of what that’s gonna look like yeah i think um you know one realization that was happening over and over so it was a pattern um i you know i see things from a system so i don’t no one exists all alone we all exist in our system and um and so when i kept seeing over and over you know people were coming back they’re like can i keep coming um which is beautiful um it makes it bigger again you know i’m like oh they’re still coming and they’re repeating things you know and um and so which is beautiful but also i think it implied at least to me that they need more um they’re not ready to drop off they’re not ready to be let go and you know and that i think is very powerful when um family members can ask for help when anyone can ask for help in whatever way they do and so um to say like and then also this like fear so there was like people that were returning um because their people went into iop and then i would hear this fear we’d watch people um and listen to people coming through the program the first you know few weeks there was just my person is safe and they were feeling that and expressing that um but then as you know the discharge neared there was just this increase in fear you could hear it me too right connecting on that i think one time they even formed their own group afterwards because they want to support each other and um and so that it just seemed so clear that our families needed a um a step down as well um they needed not to be you know left to figure this out on their own and um and the practical aspects i know you know just from learning i worked in schools and i was a teacher and i knew that you couldn’t just you can’t just teach a skill you can’t just present something and say good luck like there has to be some some integration of it and you know and that i think is where the magic happens um because this is where our clients are most at risk for relapse that’s why we have iop is because there needs to be that extra support um but there’s also a relapse for families and um you know and so you know families who are learning this new skill of i’m having a feeling and i have a need and can we talk about it um is great in the safety of a family session um but then when you get in it and they’re back home for dinner and they don’t like what they made for dinner right um all of a sudden things go back to the default pattern and there isn’t anyone to coach him in those moments and so um to me like the workshops are about the the practical aspects putting it into action families hopefully have had some experience um if not through inpatient you know family sessions and online you know certainly the clients are in it and feeling it and getting supported and so it’s about putting those two um you know kind of concepts back together so the family comes the client comes and um and they’re able to talk about the real things that are happening um in the moment so you know we’re starting with same concepts it’s just sort of a you know higher level it feels like right like they’re now moving into this more practical aspect of it and so setting those boundaries in the moment talking about real things that are happening today um going back to talk about some of those you know resentments that families are still carrying and they don’t want to throw at their family member they they want to see them in recovery but they don’t know what to do with these sort of hard topics um you know examining the family patterns and and what that looks like and what what it might look like if we continue on this path and how to undo all of that

i think one of the things i wanted to touch on as you were talking there is i um there is this process i think families go through or some families go through not all where the where their person comes to peaks and they begin to get better and communication within the family is improved um and there’s there’s a lot of excitement and there’s oftentimes relief on the part of the family and they kind of have some separation from their loved one and they’re like i’m sleeping at night i know my person is safe and and um is making progress and then um after some period of time that that wears off and and old patterns reestablish but i think also uh what i’ve what i’ve told some clients is like you you’ve created a kind of a reservoir of pain and hurt in your family and they probably haven’t you as well but like you’ve created a reservoir of pain and hurt and and it’s likely going to come out at some point and actually uh that would be a good thing if it came out um it would that’s the path kind of toward healing and and so often times uh you know i’ve seen it with clients toward the end of their treatment stay and their family members are finally like you know what actually really hurt us in these ways are we really we’re afraid or we’re really tired of this or we really can’t go back to this and and i’ve watched our clients come back and be like what has happened like things are getting worse and i’m actually this is actually the process of them getting better because they’re actually trusting you enough and it shows that they’re still invested and then i often quote the lumineers and i say that the opposite of love is indifference so their anger and their frustration and all that is actually just a form of their love um and certainly i think uh family members being willing to come and attend a workshop that’s an act of love too to say this is this relationship is worth healing um i did want to ask like do you can you share like maybe one practical thing you’re going to help families integrate with one another whether yeah i’ll let you uh um yeah well i mean i we made the first session boundaries for a reason uh so um you know i think it a lot of times it’s unspoken right like you just you go to someone’s house and you just assume that they were raised the same way that you were raised and um you know and so we’re not used to speaking to very specific boundaries and and it feels awkward and um you know and it’s unusual and you know and and it’s been introduced hopefully certainly to our clients because it’s something we talk about almost every week not every day um you know and it’s certainly something that happens in family programming um but then what does that look like do i have to write a list of rules and post it in the kitchen or um you know and that’s going to be different for each family so i think it’s just giving them a space to be able to talk about what their fears are what their concerns are because for me like if you have a fear then we need to set a boundary we need to address that by saying what’s your fear well i’m afraid he’s going to steal my car in the middle of night you know and go get high whatever you know um all right that’s the fear what’s the boundary there right like and can you respect that boundary for for now um you know your family member says that you can’t have access to their car because they’re afraid of that that has to be the boundary today and it doesn’t have to be the boundary forever boundaries are flexible they can be um but it’s just today’s boundary and you know and i think when it’s when it’s spoken and agreed upon and respected and understood of like this is why i have to set this um then it doesn’t turn into like over dinner going hey can i get the car no you can’t have the car right now we’re ugly now things are um you know um just and there’s no there’s nobody nowhere to go from there because we’ve already turned it into a place of anger so hopefully that’s what you know families will be bringing to the workshop is this um i mean they may not know that yet but you know they carry it in their pocket i know i do uh and so um i can tell you what my fears are in most situations and so i that’s what we’ll kind of talk through and work through and um you know the exciting part about you know building programs is that you know i get to hear from the clients i hope that every time we do the boundaries discussion it looks different i hope every time we work through you know this four-week curriculum it’s a it’s a whole different conversation because it’s a whole new set of fears it’s a whole new set of families that um are bringing their own you know needs and concerns and yeah yeah absolutely well pam i i i appreciate um as we kind of wrap up here i i appreciate your vision um for uh families uh coming through peaks and i appreciate uh your you championing championing them uh and the process and i really think this is a way uh we talk a lot about disrupting this industry and i think this is a way we get to do it to provide not only care and our peaks touch if you will to our clients but we also get to provide that to the family and help kind of you know help the families integrate what occurs in our program so i want to thank you for coming on the show today i want to wish everyone a happy have a safe independence day tomorrow please follow us on facebook instagram also on tiktok chris burns continues to churn out wacky videos that i think are mostly fun and anyway thank you all for viewing and feel free to email us any questions that you may have or comments and with that take care

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Episode 59Education vs. Experience: What Makes A Great Counselor?Watch Nowhttps://youtu.be/aNm-Dh4VgE0Listen NowDescriptionJoin us in the intriguing conversation about how education and experience can play a role in providing effective counseling and the difficult dynamics Peaks faces trying to break the glass ceiling on the standards of care.

Talking Points1. Does our system provide new therapists the right toolbox to start provided services right after completing their education? 2. Compiling education and experience together 3. The professional and personal growth in agency vs. private practice 4. Qualities that make a great counselor 5. CEU (continuing education unit) 6. A melting pot of philosophies, individuals and modalities who love what they do Quotes

“If you go straight into private practice, what your missing are those opportunities to cut your teeth as a therapist and to really learn to what it means to be in the trenches of the kind of clinical world, which is where you get good out of necessity because in the end you become real, you find yourself. You learn how to bring your genuine personality into the room with you so that you don’t show up as a counselor, you show up as a human being.”-Clinton Nicholson, MA, LPC, LAC, Chief Operations Officer

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 59 Transcriptswell hello again everybody welcome back to our favorite time of the week it is finding peaks episode number one million because i’m an excellent counter yeah brandon burns chief executive officer for peaks recovery centers joined today again by my faithful team and counterparts jason friesma chief clinical officer lpclac all things all the things all the things clinical clint nicholson lpclac all things kind of but more operations yeah chief operating officer absolutely welcome back to the shtick yeah yeah stick that’s what we do i think that one of these days you’re just going to forget my name yeah you look at me dead in the eye like you look like i do panic sometimes you know do i do i call you when i normally call you in passing so this guy so what we’re
what we’re going to talk about today is because we know everything about everything that’s what makes us great in our jobs yeah it’s a big statement but a true statement yeah absolutely we only live at that level of a high bar certain circles it’s very is what it takes to be a great therapist and what does that even mean because you go to every addiction treatment website every psychiatric clinical psychologist website everybody can do all the things that’s why we go to school that’s why we get master’s degree but it turns out you have say let’s let’s use it like a benign example sometimes you just get bad physicists they’re good in their academics and they step outside and they’re not great engineers i don’t know but some of them are better there’s albert einstein and then there’s other people only he would use physicists stick with me i didn’t i actually didn’t prepare for this metaphor it’s just top of mind but the way that i think we should start with this is uh because you guys know i’ve been talking about this book for like three weeks now the boy who was raised as a dog uh dr perry is the author md of that book and i think what’s really important about the book and its timeline is that dr perry starts with like i’m a doctor awesome i’m a psychiatrist and now i’m in front of my first patient and i have no idea what i’m doing like it doesn’t matter everything i’ve learned now i’m looking at this child who’s really suffering from neglect and abuse and trauma and all this stuff and i literally don’t know what i’m doing and i think that’s a good you know kind of starting point to this as well as you know we can pull in some dr yolum stuff as well too wrote i think more famously the gift of therapy he’s written a lot of things says he’s not doing philosophy but he is uh just want to get that in case you’re watching dr young in case you’re there on the the facebook watching us right now uh but in the gift of therapy in the beginning of it says i’m treating mid to high functioning individuals and what i love about that is it’s so easy for in my experience of clinicians to quote that book six ways to sunday at the same time when you read that book he spent like the first 30 years of his career in research geriatric care psych wards substance abuse he did all the things and then he arrives at this moment to meet with men to high functioning individuals and delivers these awesome therapeutic interventions the takeaway from both those books is there was an incredible time period to get into a position where they were like i think i kind of got this yet at the same time one of the universities down the road from us here in the springs releases people into the world going right into private practice and that seems like a fundamental error of the systems because what the books and all these great writers are telling us is time matters to deliver good care because the experiences matter and those experiences inform how to make right diagnoses and not to make wrong diagnoses and not to look at somebody and think of their behaviors as adhd when it might just be behaviors resulting from a traumatic episode resolve the traumatic the trauma the neglect through therapeutic interventions and maybe the adhd looking stuff kind of goes away in that regard so um i think that’s that’s a big deal to me uh because i think there’s this other language of gosh what does our friend michael say about this uh we with uh we’re kind of like feeding new professionals like to the wolves when they come out yeah you got a degree yeah we eat our young within this industry we say okay you’re pumped you’re 26 years old got your master’s degree your lpcc working on your hours here’s some patience there’s only five of them you’re gonna do great and then at the end of it they’re like i don’t know what i’m doing i’m getting burned out all of this sort of stuff right so we have this tendency as an industry to eat our young and i think that speaks to a couple of things right the lack of you know maybe professionals actually available to treat this so we require all of the youngins to come in and really perform this work and so you know just painting a picture of how our systems are kind of disruptive of this process and not allowing time to really arrive at what might be a dr perry md psychiatrist
um knowing what they’re doing and a doctor yalum in those sort of ways so um with that introduction long-winded thorough but thorough yeah where are we at with this like how much of that in your guys’s view matters because jason i think you’ve been doing this since like 1906 you know since 1972. absolutely absurd those numbers again great with numbers good physicists bad physicists good mathematician bad mathematician yeah i think you know i think you said i mean you said a lot brandon but uh one of the first things you talked about was dr perry going to his first session and being like i have no idea what i’m doing and to me that alone uh is fundamentally a great start to his career for sure having that awareness that like i don’t know what i’m doing um so you know when we were talking about um doing this topic uh today or after you told me this is what we were talking about um the first thing is that ability to know yourself um because if you don’t know yourself in in the therapeutic relationship then you can’t tell where the client is like you can’t see where their prop where your problems end and theirs begin or whatever like it it creates this baffling mess so at least dr perry knew that okay i don’t know what i’m doing but i in you know having read uh some of dr perry’s work like this guy’s deeply empathetic and uh very knowledgeable um about psychiatry particularly but he seems to hold tremendous space for people that are really suffering and so uh you know that that piece isn’t as trainable so i’m confident that when he sat down with his first patient and uh he at least had that piece with him like he knew how to like meet a human where they were and understand that he didn’t know what he was doing no i i think yes oh thanks well said yeah uh the nicest thing you’ve ever said on this show i’d like to market to show my empathy and display my therapeutic skills yeah good job uh thank you um i think humility is to kind of piggyback piggyback off of that like if you are not humble in uh your awareness of how little you know then you’re not gonna go very far i think that the master’s degrees and to be fair to you know all of the the universities and colleges in the springs like i i think most master’s level programs do not train counselors to go into agency work they don’t train them to go into the trenches they train them to go again into these sort of private practice like worried well kind of fields and um it’s it doesn’t do the student any favors you know like if you need to kind of be prepared to go to battle when you leave because i mean my i mean i went to a small a small college down in uh you know the san luis valley and my professors were very clear that you will leave here learning just enough to be dangerous and that was sort of the mantra so it was kind of instilled in me like you have to leave here knowing you know nothing or else you’ll never be okay you’ll never be good enough at this job and to move uh and to speak to what you’d kind of mentioned earlier brandon like if you move straight into private practice or even a small practice you’re what you’re missing are those opportunities to cut your teeth as a therapist and really learn what it means to to be in the trenches of the kind of clinical world which is where you just get you get good out of necessity yeah because in the end you would you get real you find yourself and you learn how to bring your genuine person into the room with you so that you don’t show up as a counselor you just show up as a human being yeah and the this i would i would encourage all viewers to uh with a companion i think it’s also a lot to download i spent as i’ve shared with both of you at least a half hour crying with my wife about all of the stories i felt like i was holding on to uh within the book and not being able to describe them or share them with other people it is deeply intense but the takeaway from it is like the the folks that we’re treating at peaks recovery centers at any given time are we look at it through the lens of just these people are suffering and it’s our job to figure out where that suffering comes from and deploy interventions that lead to uh you know a renewal of themselves their energy their relationships um you know their jobs their careers everything along the way uh but at the same time as well too um you know we have things that i think are like in the way of this you know and i’m curious from your guys’s perspective when people launch out how reliant you know maybe you think that individuals are on say like the dsm-5 i heard from somebody in this industry that this is an objective book it gives us all the objectivity so that’s great so we can resolve all things through the dsm-5 uh sarcasm to that person these are descriptors not objective views of subjective individuals but that said to bring the audience a little closer to it and move my sarcasm aside it’s like well if you have to there are there are 12 11 or 12 pieces right that would define a major depressive disorder descriptors right so you could have an individual with one through six and an individual who identifies with the descriptors of seven through twelve you could have a one two three five six and an individual with a four seven eight nine ten eleven twelve i’ve just described three individuals with a major depressive disorder who shared no symptoms um or no uh no you know one symptom equals this two three four five six or whatever and that’s what makes it not objective so it seems like we could rely on something like the dsm-5 and those descriptors and make a ton of fundamental errors when we’re looking at the individual maybe because we lack curiosity i’m curious i guess for the newbie coming out of school how reliant they end up becoming on these types of things to deliver care and if there’s a tripwire there that we should be you know kind of acknowledging within you know counselors coming out of schools in that way of things because they don’t have the experiences so they’re looking at an experience and then what informs them about that is it that or are we doing something even more harmful than just making things up i’m curious like how you were trained on the dsm when you went to school because when i went to school it was actually when we were writing this yeah when you the first esm dsm .05 yeah uh yeah when i went to school like we were actually almost encouraged to not diagnose which to me is the other end of the danger zone it was not about there wasn’t a whole lot of training on how to accurately diagnose somebody or even what that meant it was mostly um i mean that that was my experience i don’t know yeah no it didn’t i think my my diagnosis class felt pretty perfunctory like they had to do it to be careful credited or whatever but um you know like there’s this intersectionality of like you know yolum i think does a great job kind of capturing the art of therapy in so many ways of like you know just talking about these beautiful interactions with people and and and his empathy and his interventions uh are just so uniquely yalum and it’s just him being him and um and then we have kind of the medical and the science part of it and and i do think you know like the dsm i think it can be helpful to describe constellations of symptoms if you will um because it helps us make sense of things like words matter we’ve talked about that on here before um but then you know like clinically like when i’m sitting in front of everybody i’m not like thinking through like i’m just dealing with depression here anxiety like i’m dealing with a human yeah but i also think that we kind of have a tendency to jump to yalum before going through the all of the the medical stuff like you need those guidelines i think it’s i i have a victory about this yeah i do i think our field really glamorizes the whole like i’m going to bring my genuine self and i’m going to have all these cool interventions and i’m going to be really special and unique and and you miss the point where you actually have to know how to do your job like you actually have to know what the dsm is you have to know what the criteria are you know how to use them appropriately like it’s not that is not the answer i mean i could describe people that can get really nuanced in their diagnosis too absolutely it had every modifier on there and this really beautiful constellation of diagnosis that are also are very informed just nothing yeah really yeah exactly i know i i get you i think i think we talk i think we just live on the extremes of those yeah living on the extremes of either of that of that spectrum is is kind of nonsensical it’s really there’s this middle ground where everything kind of coalesces together yeah and and i think for the new therapist in particular the new counselor just making sure that there’s a solid foundation and again like that’s what you’re talking about right it’s about those years in the field those years in the trenches where you really learn how to bring all of these different pieces together so that you can be unique so that you can be creative so that you can be nuanced in a way that is really efficacious for the client in the end when i think you know i came to peaks from a private practice right i had a i mean literally four blocks from here i had an office about it yeah i don’t mean to flex but like and it worked and i saw clients and i paid my bills and it was a good gig um but really uh it even then and i was you know i was a seasoned therapist even then and but like um
there’s a growth process that’s just exponentially steeper in agency work even still even being in this field you know for quite a while as you pointed out over 20 years like the i’m still on a tremendous growth curve i would say because of the agency work because of my interactions with you guys and my interactions with other clinicians and other modalities and the presentation of clients and how much time we get to spend with them and you sit in private practice and you see client after client for an hour a week you know uh seeing the worried well is what i called it um it my professional growth kind of arrested for a while i would say and i mean and i went to conferences and trainings and all that but it isn’t the same as as being in this community of multi-disciplinary teams and being around our physicians and and that sort of thing so i’m i’m hitting something with you i can well no i’m yeah you guys know me i just love disrupting things and so just let that ambulance pass probably going right on time take care of the worried well the when we say worried well what are we stating like what is it about that patient demographic that is worried well in a way that we would not say that in agency work so honestly you know that it’s kind of derogatory yeah a little bit derogatory like really when i when i would have to like do medical billing or like do my billing stuff like literally sometimes there’s this diagnosis called adjustment disorder and that was oftentimes the only one i could find for them and basically that diagnosis just meant like you had some sort of change occur in your life and uh your ability to deal with that change is maybe not as uh robust as other people’s yeah and but it was kind of this throwaway diagnosis that just meant like it i mean life got a little hard you’re struggling and you haven’t been able to figure out on your own oh your husband isn’t talking to you so you you want to come talk to me for an hour a week and talk about that you’re making the same meals and you do the laundry and it’s boring and you’re not finding much meaning in life okay but you’re not going to really respond to my interventions you’re not going to do the things i ask you just want to come tell me that once a week okay yeah and you’ll pay me for that and it and um i just didn’t find it super fulfilling don’t get me wrong i had i also had great interactions with clients like there were times when it was um phenomenal but i’ll be honest with you it took a lot of like those were it i had to be pretty experienced and i pulled a ton of experience from from the other things i had done before to be able to engage people with that because i do think um i i want to circle back around our overall question i think what makes a good counselor too in in these i don’t mean these i’m going to say some words that are going to sound like platitudes but it’s real like to be genuine like i think somebody has to be genuine um i think our clients and i think even at any setting people sniff out disingenuousness uh so easily um and uh and that’s that takes time nurturing to learn and and i think it takes really good supervision um to make sure that people are being genuine i had a supervision uh meeting today with one of the clinicians where i just had to keep probing and probing until kind of i found a genuine response to this clinician’s response to one of our clients and like um but then once it was there was like oh my god yeah i was out of out of my genuineness in that moment for sure and um but like that takes time and that takes time to nurture that and and to figure out how to hold that space um i think that is so important um and obviously other things would be uh empathy is so critically important and i and i love to quote uh pema chodron who says that empathy is knowing our own darkness well enough to sit in the dark with another and i think that that that makes a great clinician that can just hold that space i know i keep saying it but like hold some sacred space with somebody as they are uh going through something um and that is difficult because it’s way easier to just say things fill their time or interrupt that process um i think that seems so key for me as well i think we have you know what comes up for me here too is that we have again every ever you guys heard me 100 times say this every addiction treatment website promises the dual diagnosis stuff we treat the major depressive disorder we do the anxiety we do the substances we do all the thing
that can only be true if the team underneath actually has the capacity to do that and at the same time there are always going to be in an industry with 14 000 addiction treatment centers in it not everybody under that hood is going to be in a position to treat these things but back to the language of like this industry has a tendency to eat its young it’s because it’s exploded so quickly but we haven’t really had the assets in place to deploy this and so a couple of things right that would make a great clinician wouldn’t be just being thrown to the wolves but would be to have an infrastructure within uh agency work that can actually mold support and help grow those individuals at the same time also delivering the demands and the needs of the individual uh within programming and so out of this just want to highlight that we can be a down a stream here of many nuances and at the same time this is quite complex and you know one of the things that comes to mind is i hear families you know colin peaks and so forth it’s like oh well the last psychiatrist like didn’t get it um you guys have a psychiatrist it seems like your guys are going to get it unless we’re going to do this right we’re just going to manage but like there are limitations to what a psychiatrist can do at any given time there are limitations to what medications can do dr ilardi’s episodes uh dr ryan being on our episodes dr ashley johnson i mean we’ve been very transparent about these limiting features and clinicians themselves though master’s degrees don’t just walk out with all of the experiences in the world yet at the same time admissions teams are tasked with yes we can treat that yes we have the lpc that can challenge the mental health and you know deliver the intervention but back to the books it seems like the only way to really fundamentally get this is to have these experiences in place and not just experiences but experiences that were challenged and informed in real time because you can have all the experiences in the world but if your only supervision was somebody who kept thumping your head with the 12 steps right as a model of care then you can have all the experiences but all you know how to deliver is 12-step through those experiences and you miss all the other opportunities of interventions i think it’s a great caveat right like it’s not just about being thrown to the wolves it’s about being thrown to the wolves with like a really great mentor or a really great supervisor yeah to help you navigate that because you and it’s a pretty well known kind of almost trope in our industry that clinical supervision is always uh it’s almost like a myth to some degree and i mean again this goes to the nuance like there are agencies where it is not great and you do not get good supervision and it and you will not grow and you will be stuck kind of where you even if you come out of school you’re thrown into the wolves and you’re just left there to sort of fend for yourself and you actually don’t grow in that environment either just like there are private practice organizations that i’m sure are phenomenal have great supervision have really have really passionate really dedicated people that can help help you grow in an environment that is maybe less challenging but still nonetheless will allow you to grow as a clinician i think it’s it’s about not being alone right like you have to have guidance through that process it’s nobody knows how to do this right away you know it’s um it just takes time and if you have people that can i mean it’s people helping people it’s broken helping broken it’s kind of absurd to a certain degree and i that’s my own rag on my on my actual you know like career basically but it there’s a certain sort of absurdity to it and because the the clinician has to be is still human right and we have to a lot of what we learn is a really about self-awareness like jason spoke to earlier and how do we show up in certain ways when with certain people in certain situations and how do we navigate that in a way that allows us to actually develop empathy and create emotional connection and and provide good clear feedback for that individual so that they can kind of move on in their life from wherever they are it’s to do that by yourself after two years of college or two years of a master’s program is not a thing like it just that’s not real you know you have to have help you have to have support yeah it has me thinking of uh you know here in colorado we have ceus continued education units right the whole goal behind those i i believe correct me if i’m wrong is certainly that hey you’re in a private practice maybe you don’t have supervision but so many hours out of the year you’ve got to go and be educated on a topic and then you sign off on that well the real problem with that feels like that just like reading dr yolum’s book it provides a lot of opportunities in it but if you don’t have anybody to engage with it to work on it with to be witness to your improvement and your growth as an opportunity you can walk into a ceu event take as much notes as you want to do but if you don’t have anybody to bounce those ideas off of probably not going to arrive at being successful at least in what we were being educated on and probably more to the point as well too i think clinicians probably a good amount of them are just checking ceu boxes and not actually delivering the interventions that in a in a in a real informed and meaningful way is my major statement come at me industry well the ceu is also designed for that clinician who’s been in the field for decades and to keep them fresh to keep them up to date to make sure that um we don’t get stagnant you know because this is our field has any field that isn’t dynamic isn’t a field it’s it’s a it’s a theory right you know and so um but to your point like but if i but if i’m a clinician right and i am i’m for 20 years because maybe out of self-awareness and growth i’m in recovery myself i did it through the 12-step model and 12-step is abstinence regardless and now i’m in front of somebody who’s requiring medication-assisted treatment and there’s a ceu event for medication-assisted treatment and i ignore that because it’s not sitting within my philosophy then i’m just going to the ceu events that talk about you know 12-step programming within programs or interventions around that right then i mean this i think is one of the fundamental problems of our industry we adopt this is the only industry it’s not the only it’s one of a handful of healthcare size healthcare settings in which we can develop our own philosophies about what we think the individual needs in front of us and deploy those and that seems
i mean it seems like an extraordinary liability but that is what is happening on all of our sites we have these philosophies that we take with us that we think the other individual should have because it worked for me it worked for the last 10 people i saw in this row and then that limits our potential for growth and limits us within ceu settings or where we’re going to go receive continued education whatsoever
i mean it’s a statement you know maybe it’s a statement it was a statement i don’t know what the question is i i do am i wrong some people are stupid am i wrong
i just want to slip into like reflect back what you said and have you keep talking that’s just like my counselor and me who wants to do that i think that you know even peaks though to a certain degree like we have our own philosophy right like we’re one of those agencies our philosophy just happens to be that our philosophy is flux you know like we’ll take as many different philosophies as we possibly can and learn from all of them we’re not gonna just pick one and hold on to it for dear life we’re gonna we’re gonna take the best of everything that we’ve found and try to come come up with something cohesive but in the end like you said just like when you’re diagnosing uh major depressive disorder you know you’ve got 12 criteria but no two individuals have meet this the same criteria in the same way right so to have to try to have one philosophy to to to treat this um what is a very dynamic diagnosis makes no sense you know unless your philosophy is to have i will use whatever philosophy is necessary that that’s probably the best philosophy i have right yeah well and for us our vision has been to disrupt an industry through quality of care and so you know in that regards we are big at peaks of like and we’ve talked about it with i’ve talked about it with joanna conte and vista research and outcome data for the last 30 years our industry is 30 or lower or just flat as regards to outcomes in that regard so our philosophy at peaks is like just throw everything out with the kitchen sink in that regard and let’s pull anything and everything in as possible to make this as big as possible for the individual that we’re in front of to move outcomes in a direction that you know is viable and i think the power behind that is that it feels like the old philosophies the ingrained things we’re gonna do six hours of group one individual session and we’re gonna sprinkle meds on them and somehow that’s gonna lead to the outcome at the bottom of every algorithmic page that we treat depression if you get to the bottom of it it’ll say something about depression like we throw them at it and we do some counseling along the way and we’re hopeful at that point that is an old way of doing things going back to dr ilardy’s model that is not a spiderweb concept you know let’s throw the tms ketamine if it’s necessary you know let’s throw the calcium let’s get some exercises get probiotics let’s get nutrition in there let’s do all of those things and see if something sticks if not multiple things but we what we know for the outcomes is not sticking is a med and therapy delivered with one individual session a week and six hours of group per day in a room where people are also not there for major depression but therefore substance use disorder primaries and out of that philosophy i think our industry has gotten really hopeful about a co-occurring disorder and a guessing game that okay you say you have depression but you smoke two pot two days ago i think the pot is causing the depression right and i think that is where i just want to acknowledge what i mean when i talk about these select philosophies versus just having this all sort of in approach because at this point we know we can always do one individual session and six hours group you know a day and we know what those outcomes are and so it feels like we have nothing to lose by adding more absolutely yeah well i guess i don’t this only feels like it loosely ties to what you’re saying like i do feel like fundamentally so much of our philosophy is so intangible because it is about building community with our clients and having our clients build community and that connection and it’s hard to measure that and so it’s hard to standardize it right like we could try to take this philosophy and drop it into a different program but like you have to have the right people doing it because like that’s a genuine thing like i think people being genuine that extends beyond our clinical team i think i think our best employees are those that are truly showing up doing what they love and if you talk to our medical and housing and admissions in all of our departments they’re doing what they love from their being genuinely themselves in their role that’s hard to measure and it’s hard to to to i don’t know put out there yeah it’s hard to put in the book it’s hard to put in a book it’s hard to step by step and science needs it to be replicable right like they need to say this is how you plug this in and go do this and maybe we need to figure out how to write that down but like that’s difficult to do because it’s so intangible yeah well and we work in a managed care setting yeah absolutely clear we have all these downward pressures and requirements from insurance companies some of them are good because they protect against things like liabilities and ensure that there’s actually services being rendered and it’s not just all hocus pocus for the individual you know but at the same time i feel like the defeating aspect of agency work is the schooling systems are doing a terrible job at conveying the value of the dsm-5 there’s no documentation standard requirements for most schools uh throughout the country i’ve rarely except out of like the hazelton network i think they’re big on documentation but as an example to be charitable to institutions but you know at the same time so you pull these people out who you guys are describing to me come out of school with this like authenticity and i need to meet the client where they’re at i need to build rapport and those things have an incredible amount of value okay now i need you to document all that well how do i document those intangibles because that’s really what we’re experiencing in the room and they get defeated real quick in the process because it’s like well you have to put the medical intervention in there like nobody realistically i think call me out if i’m wrong is sitting in an individual therapy session like oh i’m about to smash this person with some dbt some dialectical behavioral therapy here comes like fast pitch right you would be surprised yeah we some of but like to your point though it isn’t 60 minutes of it right right like here’s how you do wise binding let’s practice that like i think or like taking it out of the tool belt like i got a dbt here i got some cbt i got some of this and like okay here we go okay you’re talking i’m thinking i’m gonna use this tool like yeah you know i think at the beginning yes actually there’s some very if there’s like a sort of attachment to your your favorite intervention and people like oh i’m a cbt therapist it’s like no you’re not if you are then you should stop like you don’t do that anymore it’s i think this is the i mean this is the thing about our field right like it is we live in a world of gray like it is a messy thing that we do and if you can’t get comfortable being messy then you’re probably not going to be very successful we want things to be very clean and very organized and very easy to sort of encapsulate and replicate and this is mental health like this is behavioral health this is people people are not those things like we are very very dynamic and it’s um it’s why our philosophy has to be dynamic right like and that’s really as a company what we are like we we recognize the importance of allowing ourselves to to explore as many options as are as absolutely necessary because no two treatments that no two patients that come to our uh that come to our facility while they will have a standard level of care like a fundamental level of care that ensures that they’re again not getting the hocus pocus they will individually have their own experience in their own treatment trajectory but we have to create an environment in which that happens which is again another intangible space like how do you you have to create a culture in which that allows that to happen how do you encapsulate a culture you know like how do you do that how do you replicate that there are um it’s once you you the smaller you try to get the bigger the picture becomes and um i don’t know i just think it’s one of those if you can embrace the messy then you’re okay you know then i i think that you’re going to be fine but if you’re looking for something very clear and very clean it’s it’s not going to happen then you should probably go to private practice
treat the world worried yeah well i i know that i’ve got like a hundred different things to say like you know how do you find for example right the right clinician in a geographically limited location like vale colorado what do you think the population of vale colorado is like like four like four or five people living in million dollar homes yeah there’s 110 bed you know facility out there somewhere uh in colorado and like how do you get talent in such a small town that is so unaffordable to live in to treat the individuals that you say you can serve at the end of the day yes i’m coming at you industry uh in this regard but at the same time i always dedicated to giving families the information to challenge this industry so that we shape up and we show up in the way that we say we do on each and every one of our websites at the end of the day so tangent aside take us out gentlemen maybe like top five bullet points what do you think how do we arrive at becoming the best possible therapist and maybe it is your journey that describes those bullet points rather than you know pointing at others
i man that’s off the top of my head i i’ve listed a fair amount of them and and having my own genuineness feels like such a key part like you’re asking about my personal journey to be here like i think uh and i think it’s all these it’s all these things that we yeah embrace yourself it’s all these words that we say like this holding space and and creating a culture and a community it’s all these intangible things and i even like to say that like you know like uh the people who wrote came up with cognitive therapy ellis i think and and fritz pearls with gestalt and all these guys created um these theories of counseling but it was them being themselves and yalum and all of his work that’s truly just y’all and being himself and then we try to like figure out how to incorporate it in and so to your point like i don’t think our job is to create little lyolums or little friesmas as we have liked to say is to empower our clinicians at peaks to find like to be genuinely themselves because you know and this is something that i did appreciate about the grad school i went to we talked about how like the clinician is actually the agent of change like all these interventions are really important and helpful but like we have to be the ones that can figure out the intervention and also just hold the space and find the problem yeah uh we can have all the best interventions in the world but if we can’t sit with a person and really begin to track down what the issue is it doesn’t matter what our interventions are um that’s my first thought would there wasn’t five bullet points but that’s my thought clinton uh i think sense of humor too by the way let’s throw that in yeah lob that in there yeah you gotta be able to tell jokes yeah really funny ones really funny jokes do you know me yeah i got a joke uh um i think 90 of being a good therapist is just being a decent person yeah like being able to sit down and listen and just like you said hold space like just be there with an individual and actually not try to do anything just allow people to be themselves we don’t do that enough for each other in this world yeah we don’t sit and just be with each other there’s always an agenda and if you can go into even though there is like an actual literal purpose and um place you’re trying to go from point a to point b when as soon as you walk into a counseling session if you can walk in there without an agenda you’re in a great space because it’s gonna become organic and it’s gonna um and then you’re gonna allow you will start to show up in a way that is very real and that and will start to develop that therapeutic bond in relationship um and if you can make that connection man like all of this i think when you talked about interventions and like you don’t go in there think i’m going to use this i’m going to use that i’m going to use that and the truth is you i think in the beginning you do but after a while you what ends up happening is you just sort of organically use these intervention strategies they just become a part of your they become a part of the way in which you communicate with people and it’s in upon reflection that you’re like you think back you’re like oh yeah i used some cbt there when i was talking to him about that oh yeah that was i threw in a dbt skill just kind of a little underhand right there just kind of in the middle when they started to disregulate a little bit you know all of these little things become very organic and they become very much a part of the process so there’s this very difficult act of letting go of being a counselor and i think once you let go of this idea that i’m a counselor you’ve become one kind of weird that’s paradox that was good yeah so the answer is a paradox and i think what these uh guys in my experience are illuminating here today as well too is that the world has been hard on the individuals that we serve at peak’s recovery center sometimes that’s not obvious to the family systems right it’s like oh we gave them everything i don’t understand what the problem is here but in some way shape or form it could be and that’s the i think when you for the viewers out there they’re going to go download audiobook whatever the boy was raised as a dog when you read that book there’s a couple really uh sensitive pieces of you know material in there that convey like real physical abuse um in a profound way but also at the same time what’s challenging about the book is the abuses are just these moments of neglect these missed opportunities to be a human with a baby human you know an individual is two to four years old and it creates all of these problems for the individual and so the individuals that come to peaks i think are used to being on their heels used to be in defensive use to feeling like the world is throwing everything at them and then they’re they’re depleted so they come in with a sense of distrust and so showing up in that way that you guys are describing those intangibles like the first thing i’m going to do in this room with you here’s my tool belt i’m going to put on so i’m just going to be a human with you because if we can’t be relational together you’re never going to give me any insights you’re never going to tell me where you’ve come from i’m going to be just like the world is as you came into peaks fair absolutely all right well played well said and experience matters for sure meaningful experience meaningful experiences right being on a team knowing you know being able to pat you get better in team environments right i think overall that’s true in sports it’s true in professional settings as well too the idea to bounce ideas off each other um and i know like our team is probably you know going to watch this in the background and be like there brandon is hitting on the private practices again but private practices are of absolute value but there is greater value in them when individuals i think who arrive at them go through these experiences and get all of these individuals with different backgrounds diagnoses and so forth in front of them and it gives them an opportunity to better serve future individuals through this collaborative effort so um i guess i’ll just take us out here because maybe that was a mic drop moment i don’t know you tell us was it a mic drop moment finding peaks at peaksrecovery.com coover that’s for you to do the the digital stuff we’ll see if we can make it happen otherwise thank you all so much for being a part of this to gate with us again today it’s always a pleasure to bring these things forward hopefully you can hear our passion hopefully we’re not trying to discourage people from pursuing these things but give insights into what you might be thinking about as a family system when you go to find an addiction treatment setting a behavioral hosting of any sort like what is the actual capacity for a treatment program to deliver these services that their website says they can do um and just to be equipped with those tools at the end of the day because you your loved one friend of spouse otherwise life is in a state of suffering in that moment and it’s just so important that the services are real and that we have the capacity to deliver on those promises that we make to you all each and every day when you call our admissions line so thank you for being here with us again today uh find us on the facebook the tick tocks chris burns doing the heart pounding stuff all that sort of stuff a lot of energy love him uh grateful for him i believe jason friesma is host next week i am finding peaks so tune in next week for the freeze and we will see you all then

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Episode 58Trauma-Related Barriers to TreatmentWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/-dTnmXDUoSEListen NowDescriptionChris and Madelyn endeavor down a great conversation about trauma and the deep core concepts that we navigate in order to truly help individuals overcome these hurdles.

Talking Points1. A beautiful part of Madelyn’s story 2. Is it treatment resistant or trauma resilient? 3. Be curious – Ask all the questions you want during the treatment admissions process 4. Barriers to treatment Quotes

“I couldn’t even see that at the time when I first got into treatment. I was thinking, that if I quit heroin I’m good, then I could move forward with my life. Now I don’t even see those parts of the story. I see the core wounding, I see the shame, I see the abandonment and what that leads to, and I see the cycle perpetuating over and over because I have ingrained this belief that this is my narrative. Drugs are not really a part of that. It helped blunt it a little bit, and it was more of a tool for what was really going on, a coping mechanism.” – Madelyn Padilla UN, Admissions Specialist

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 58 Transcriptshey everybody and welcome to another amazing episode of finding peaks your grateful recovering president and founder also known as the motivational specialist company cheerleader you name it whatever you’d like to call me i’m open to i am gracefully joined by my co-host counterpart guest here madeline padilla one of our great admissions specialists but even greater humans you know what time it is so i’m really grateful to jump in here we’re going to be talking about barriers to treatment as it pertains to trauma most certainly the microcosm of trauma which is shame but i want to start out our episode madeline had the opportunity to share with our alumni group as well as our inpatient clients last friday her personal journey and recovery and she sent me her story i was unable to make it unfortunately but she sent me her story and i just wanted to open the show with the last section of her story and kind of start that as a topic here and it was just absolutely framed beautifully coherent and trauma informed and it says in conclusion this is not a story about heroin or drugs this is a story about compassion grace and mercy i don’t feel grateful i feel redeemed and i feel free and i feel connected some days i wake up and wonder how this happened and then i see a familiar smile at the office someone asked how the week was i feel like i have come home and i get to work so i wanna i wanna start with that and you had a awesome opportunity i’ve heard a lot of feedback from clients and staff and just your story spoke to a lot of people um and the way that you framed it i just thought was so eloquent so trauma-informed and very intentional and in a way that just about everybody could hear it um what was that like for you to share it and write it writing it was kind of a panic i got asked the day before i’m like i’ll just type up a couple notes you know and then and then it became a process and i’m like whoa what what really did happen and i’m walking through my own process you know and that was awesome um sharing it was it was just cool to see how many people it was a little interactive like how many people have experienced this or what was this like and everyone raised their hand and and i was nervous going into that because i thought i’ve been to a lot of speaker meetings i kind of know what the setup is and i’m supposed to talk about 50 or 30 how it was and how it is now and all this like this context kind of came flooding in about what i’m supposed to do and i thought that doesn’t feel like me at all that’s not what happened i i have a story i know what the story is and i’m just gonna go with it and um do it a little bit differently no one had read theirs either off a piece of paper but i needed some notes i wanted some feedback from other people and um i felt accepted that people heard what i had to say and they did feel connected to it and it was so it was just really cool yeah that’s a beautiful thing it was very emotional yeah i can remember thinking i remember i um stood up and spoke at an aaa meeting in prescott arizona it was a salvation army i was like 14 months sober and i remember thinking to myself there is no way i’m ever going to be able to talk about anything other than what happened right and really what happened in my uh mind’s eye at the time what happened was drug addiction and you explained something much more intentional and much more robust and and i think your story and our story um speak very clearly to the cart coming before the horse yeah absolutely no and that’s what it is i couldn’t even see that at the time when i first got into treatment i was on the same track as you if i quit heroin i’m good and then i can move forward with my life and now i like don’t even see those parts of the story i see the core wounding i see the shame i see the abandonment what you know what that led to um i see the cycle perpetuating over and over because i’ve been graying this belief that this is my narrative i can see that yeah the drugs are not really a part of that then that helps blunt it right a little bit and that was more of a tool for what was really going on the coping mechanism for sure yeah and we were speaking before the show too and you brought up something very just something that i want to touch on here too and i’ve been guilty of saying this to folks who have come into treatment it’s actually a term and a concept we’ve used in behavioral health for many years and it’s this idea of treatment resistance right treatment resistance treatment resistance is trauma resilience trauma responsibility resilience yeah and i hate that term that someone’s resistant because one that you’re right it speaks to us actually what’s going on and people should be resistant they’ve had experiences if any of our clients are like me and i know a lot of them are they have had they’ve had their trauma re-escalated and they’ve been re-traumatized in a place that was supposed to keep them safe and treat them with respect and treat them with integrity you know and all that stuff um and that’s not always the case at all so to come in resistant maybe a little bit cynical that that behavior makes sense right absolutely yeah absolutely and that that’s not a diagnostic code despite what people may think um it tells the story that something else has happened right what has happened right let’s talk about what has happened and and it makes sense that you’re feeling this way yeah and quite frankly if if somebody’s not coming in treat members what really scares me is the folks that come in and they’re like this is amazing this is great and we’re just not a tune we’re not present for the experience because even if we don’t have trauma we’re coming into an environment full of strangers who i’ve never met before and to your point a lot of people like we were talking about before i was down on campus meeting with a guy earlier he’s been to 20 treatments and 19 of those treated him poorly right and so that’s why when he comes into our program he’s looking around he’s scanning he’s not comfortable he’s kind of like give me some space until we do what we do in true peaks fashion and build that safety for the people that need it the most and your story just spoke to that so well it wasn’t anything that was wrong with you it was certainly something wrong with a provider not being trauma-informed not creating safety and not creating a space in which you could sink into your recovery oh absolutely i mean you gotta understand too like to to trust peaks was to kind of like gaslight my oaths right i will never allow myself to get put in this situation ever again if the little love i had for myself just to shred said never again never again i’m hitchhiking back to treatment center in california you know in a gown in socks you know i don’t know where i am they forgot me they forgot i was a client i swore to god i said never again and then i find myself doing it again but of course i’m a little guarded yeah i’m waiting for the other shoe to draw you know and that this kind of bleeds into even like the admission side of things where i talk to a lot of families that say i got so many questions but i i understand i just need to trust the process what does that mean trust the process leave no stone unturned ask every question let’s talk about it till you can’t talk about it anymore because this is how we’re weeding out what’s going to work and what’s not you know and if we can’t answer a question that should just be a big red flag just waving around and if someone tells you to just they use this terminology you know trust the process you’ve got to go with the flow you’re going to like to trust us whatever it is yeah to an extent once you feel safe you can do that right but we need to answer all the questions yeah yeah and really build that trust and safety and if you’re a family out there it’s like we do it with our clients i think one of one of our core values is be curious always right be curious be curious ask better questions and i would say the same for families when you’re looking for a treatment program ask all the questions and you’re right if they can’t answer it next phone call next yeah and we love that because we get we get time too to train people that can’t come here let’s check out a few places they’ll throw a few options out there right what are some questions to ask how many lpcs are there how many are there what’s the clinical staff member to client ratio that that gives me a good idea you know what’s going on there um do they do they abide by a 12-step model true are they willing to make that a billable service great question yeah figure it out yeah yeah and and then it’s it’s so cool because walking through that now we got a map going this place is all right yeah hey that place i see you right over there and then we actually have something to offer because our referrals are dead serious yeah they’re dead serious yeah and i love i’ve said it before and i’ll say it again that’s what i love about the admissions team is every single one of those referrals is very serious and very intentional we expect that client to be in good hands yeah even if it’s not with us that’s correct and that is so i’ve never been a part of a team certainly an admissions team that does that it’s literally like hey i gotta get up the phone hey i gotta get off the phone you know in the time and space that you all spend man listen first solve later yeah

yeah it never gets old but i gotta get that tattooed so yeah i want to chat about some of the barriers that presented themselves with you and why um just for the audience and especially specifically young adults mature adults that are coming up against this process and are becoming weary fearful disconnected um scared anxious that’s really informed and the barriers are consistent in your story and i just wanted to kind of elaborate a little bit on those barriers and why they were there in the first place and how you moved through them yeah okay well i want to start with again starts way way back way way back before i’m a legal adult before i’ve tried drugs before anything else and i i was in a lot of pain i was a difficult kid um difficult kid i was just in a lot of pain i’m gonna leave it at that yeah and my family they they just didn’t know what to do they did not know what to do and they talked to like a educational consultant which is a broker it’s a body broker for kids like something like that and they they got a referral from a clinician that never saw me right now so weird it’s educational consultants yeah you know what i’m talking about and they were convinced they were sure and they did this out of love they really did yeah they were preyed upon they believed that this unregulated teen treatment center in utah was like the answer to their prayers and they were they were so hooked on this idea that this was going to save my life that they had people come kidnap me right out of my home yeah um and zip tie you they they tie your hands even if you’re willing oh yeah they say we could do this the easy way or the hard way i chose the hardware yeah yeah i’m like let’s go hard that’s right that’s right and yeah they i got some knee injuries from that and so yeah and um they whisked me off to utah well now i have no rights and this learned helplessness kicks in there’s nothing i can do to change my circumstances there’s nothing i can do to have my voice heard okay so the core wound which was i’m not enough oh it’s integrating now it’s really like the stakes going in right and then later on i’m using drugs to cope with the trauma of what happened there right i trust another place that speaks to human resilience i asked for help again you know that that really is powerful yeah it really is once again the same experience and this just keeps repeating itself to a point where i’m like god i i can’t do this anymore and i’ll i’ll never trust again and um that is an act of god that peaks was at that um juncture yeah that’s a that’s unexplainable to your point though i i absolutely agree with your mom and your family really out of love because i’ve had i’ve been on the phone with your mom and she’s very coachable and she will do what the professionals suggest always sounds like you just had some tough professionals in front of that situation right but i do believe it was out of luck it was right and that that’s the you know talk about dialectics i’m gonna i’m gonna choose to hold both i i’m so i am so loved but i’m so hurt to this day i’ve done a lot of therapy i’m not over that i’m not over that you know and i need to work on that every day what’s the lesson there how could i help people um how could i educate people cause god

treatment in general this is an industry that has the potential to prey on the most vulnerable people ever yep they’re the most clay in your hand exactly and that kind that comes with great responsibility and i think it’s an incredible privilege too to be part of that process yeah it gives some meaning to my experiences too yeah i love that and it’s clear too and with with the barriers for change and those being so deeply rooted it’s it’s like as a as a developing human in this world there’s nothing more important than positive influential beneficial child adult relationships that’s right and there’s nothing more horrendous than negative ones right and we continue to foster those in a way in our early adulthood as well and bring those people close only to be hurt and hurt again i think you mentioned in your story but what was it that got you to a point to trust again because it wasn’t when you got to peaks no no it was most certainly some time in that milieu and i was probably closer to the time when you graduated yeah actually i think it started before i graduated but but there was a moment after i left and i knew that the insurance checks had stopped coming right this is a great test yeah right let’s see we’ll see now yeah like let’s see we’ll see what happens here oh people kept meeting with me kept talking to me you kept talking to me you know lots of people did um that’s the ultimate test in my book what happens after this like what’s the plan you know and that solidified just kind of put the put the clothes on that the doubts that i had and i felt that love a long time ago but that’s just what did me certainly yeah yeah and i’m grateful for the team around me because i’m just like oh you need help you need help let’s go come on yeah which create a lot of barriers for their progress right exactly as well don’t be that barrier yeah and i love that one of our our core values which i love we finally put these to paper right yeah do no harm do no harm not do harm if it justifies in the end or if it’ll help them out later it’s just it’s simple it’s just do no harm yeah and i love that it’s beautiful it’s great it absolutely is and it’s a it’s a real trauma-informed perspective if you can get there like it’s not tell somebody they did it wrong it’s not use use statements and i just love the way that we’re adopting really this compassionate lens and you can see people madeline much different than you know when we started or when i started in 12 step i was sitting down with a guy he’s getting ready to graduate actually tomorrow and i’m sitting down with a guy and he’d been to multiple treatment centers and i’m sitting there having a smoothie with him and about halfway through he looks at me and he goes it really doesn’t matter because i’m going to get high again anyway and i’m like buddy just but not today right but just not today and and i’m wondering that if you take care of your underlying causes and conditions maybe you have the openness to explore things in the future but just not today it’s been my experience if you take care of the underlying causes and conditions specifically the overwhelming intensity that’s running your life in the name of trauma you won’t have those intense behaviors no i sat there and told them i said but i go have a glass of wine today if i want but i’m choosing to sit with you madeline he came alive he was like oh my gosh you just gave me so much hope he clicked yeah cause he’s like i think that’s the trauma to be like i have this special allergy on this unique thing that only i have and i have to succumb to this hard edge this traumatized hard edge for the rest of my life and i love that we’re allowing people space and grace to be like it doesn’t have to be like that absolutely more people are recovering since we’ve started this approach over the last two or three years this holistic approach is to treat people well and guide them into their individual recovery process we talked about that the the last episode but you’re here so i’m just going to share because i’m so excited about it right that that this belief that people’s behaviors make sense right and that i am statements are powerful they hold power um like neuro science power right like real power and you you take someone to a meeting every day that’s their culture and they show up and they say i’m an addict i’m an alcoholic every day right they do that for 90 days what does an alcoholic do chris right they drink what is that what stays top of mind right exactly so it’s just so it’s it’s we have to go farther than that we have to offer the most vulnerable people more than that that’s not good enough no that’s not even close not at all no way yeah and this idea too is incurable i have an incurable disease i’m going to challenge that i’m going to challenge that um i believe in a full recovery i believe in a foreign i believe in a full recovery i’m not gripping on praying to god i don’t slip off this narrow path the world is wide open for me and if it was any more limited it’s just not enough yeah so i love it because i feel like just like you it’s like we’re driving down a five lane highway today and i got room to move over i can get in the hov lane i get in a slow lane i have a lot of options and it did feel like and we’ve talked about this on other episodes and i’m coming up on 14 years so we’ll visit it in another episode as well it’s just like i don’t want to succumb to being that small today nope and if somebody chooses to engage in a 12 subway life that’s great but let’s take care of the business first that’s right so that you can not survive in 12 steps right and that’s the difference that i’ve seen with a lot of people that are taking care of themselves what i mean by that is getting with a master’s level clinician getting a doctor getting a good group of recovery people around you and working on yourself that’s right get to work yeah and a sponsor is great a mentor is great but that is in our experience it’s adjunct to the people these are all right right we need to distinguish between what is foundational and what is ancillary if we cannot do that we don’t have a we don’t have a real program you know what’s the foundation what’s the extra stuff yeah we love the extra stuff absolutely we do all the exercises exactly right but um is that going to carry us through trauma right oh no yeah that acute detox is not going to change for you it’s going to get you take a nap and i love that too because it used to be i mean up until not too many years ago i mean the primary foundational process was the 12-step way of life and so it’s not it’s not to sit in here and say this is wrong a.a has been a beautiful thing for many many years it’s just taking what we have the advancements and the progressiveness and every all the information that we have and utilizing it and aaa and 12-step can still be a really great value proposition we just got to take care of the meat and potatoes first because you get a lot in my experience in the alcoholics anonymous or 12-step way of life you get a lot of people surviving and happy to do it that’s right i was happy to do it as well but if you give yourself some space and grace and explore some of that underlying stuff in a safe place i think what people will find out that life will open up beyond their wildest dreams yes you know oh yeah and that’s like uh and that’s where i was telling madeline before the show it’s like you look like you’re thriving oh yeah and she was like yeah yes because i’m no i’m no longer okay with you know the eight and a half the 8.2 the 7.8 out of 10 in my recovery you know so it’s always just enough though it’s different than that that that void i need more no it’s always enough but it’s always getting better yeah yeah how does that work that’s right it’s so interesting i love it and it’s this ability to navigate and have choices and be heard and be seen and feel safe in my body and go hey i’ll go to a dharma meeting with you today absolutely i’ll check out a 12-step with you yeah or we can just hang out here and eat some dinner i love it and the connection’s happening mm-hmm all the way through yep yeah i love it that’s the meat and potatoes that’s the meat potatoes that’s the meat potatoes well that went really quick um that is all we have today our show is wrapping up i am so grateful to be back on with you i was telling madeline before the show she’s one of the guests co-hosts um regulars here that really gets me thinking about trauma gets me thinking about recovery in a different way and i’m just so grateful to have you on absolute miracles here so find us on all of your stuff instagram podcast tick tock tick tock i’m the brand ambassador madeline threw down a great tick tock the other day an amazing meditation check it out we got like 70-something likes on that bad boy until next time thank you all peace

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Episode 57What Drives Substance Use?Watch Nowhttps://youtu.be/xwIPSDBVn4MListen NowDescriptionDiscover and gain an understanding of the underlying factors that contribute to and help cause substance use, with podcast leaders Brandon, Jason, and Clinton.

Talking Points1. Reviewing language shift around the word “addiction” 2. Explaining some of the factors that lead to substance use 3. How self-awareness can help the healing process 4. Discussion about abstinence Quotes

“You’ve started to align with someone who struggles with substance use because you are looking at maladaptive coping strategies. But you don’t get to a maladaptive coping strategy until you ask the question of why and get to the motivation. ….all of the sudden, you can see much, much more clearly. Because it is just about seeking out what need that behavior is meeting, really building insight into that motivation, and then slowly over time, developing alternative coping strategies that are much more adaptive, and align with the person’s wellbeing and desire to get better.” – Clinton Nicholson, MA, LPC, LAC, Chief Operations Officer

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 57 Transcriptsempathy is knowing your own darkness
without that connection you don’t have
anything what’s the opposite of
addiction just freedom
well
hello everyone
uh welcome to another episode of finding
peaks i am your host the best of hosts
chief executive officer for peaks
recovery centers brandon burns
joined
again today
by
jason friesma chief clinical officer
clint nicholson chief operating officer
nailed the titles i messed that up a few
episodes ago with uh dr ryan actually i
called him the chief clinical officer he
loved that
[Laughter]
approving in any way so
uh welcome back everybody though i’m
excited to be here one of the things
we’ve been talking about you know across
finding peaks episodes we’ve kind of
just been dropping it in there a few
minutes at a time is this notion of
addiction and removing it as language
from our industry and the benefits that
would follow from that we want to hunker
down a little bit more into that concept
today
and focus in on why we are
trying to
push that language aside and really make
a claim that this is a mental health
issue and it is not about the drugs in
that way and
i’ve been talking about it with our
leadership team trying to throw this i’m
gonna i’m gonna hit the kids at home
have any of you seen the movie a scanner
darkly
yes or no
it’s one of keanu reeves best monologue
movies ever made anyways i’m not
recommending the movie because it is
deep and it is dark and it is about
drugs and addiction and a variety of
these things but there’s this scene when
they pull over to the side of the road
and wynonna writers in the movie woody
harrelson um keanu reeves all the best
people and they’re pulled over and the
car is broken down and counter reeves
gets out of the car and he goes
we got to stop doing the drugs it’s
messing with our brains and woody
harrelson walks over and says man it’s
not about the drugs don’t blame the
drugs and
so i want to use that clip as the sort
of transition here that
i feel strongly about what we talk about
when we say push this word addiction to
the side and let’s talk about it as
mental health because the drugs is this
external thing it’s a feature of the of
our internal condition and why some
people use it more than others and why
people become
addicted to it
um you know differentiates across the
public in our culture and for those
reasons it feels like it’s not about
that there’s some condition i think even
when we go to you know dr elardy’s tapes
a few weeks ago and the work we were
able to do with him you know that
dopaminergic effect
is lacking in individuals at times
compared so one person can have less
less of that effect than another person
so this person experiences the world in
sort of a more mundane less excited way
when i look at the mountains i get a
dopamine kick when that person looks at
the mountains they don’t we both arrived
to a party that night we both do drugs
and yeah i get excited about the drugs
but i put it down and for this person
and the way that i look at the mountains
uh for that episode they’re now excited
about it uh in that way and now they
have that effect and what we gathered
from that is that this person over here
is more vulnerable uh than the other
individuals who are you know or and more
susceptible in that way so
again it feels like there’s a prior
condition it could be trauma emotional
dysregulation a variety of different
fancy words in the clinical world that
you will have better access to to
explain than i do but
um
let’s keep moving that needle in that
direction because it feels important and
i think it feels important for what we
do as a treatment
center so i know clinton you are
most prepared at any given time to want
to dislodge that word from the culture
and so i think let’s just do some
foundational stuff
catch all the kids and the families up
to speed on why we’re talking about this
and um so why
do we need to get rid of this word okay
so getting
rid of the word addiction
uh
well let’s start with the stigma right
so there’s a huge stigma around
addiction and the way in which we’ve
talked about addiction and treated
addiction culturally for really the last
hundred years is that it is this sort of
um
it’s a treatable disease but is terminal
and it’s in the sense that once an
addict always an addict
um also that it is
about um
there’s a there’s a sense of
um
willpower that is sort of talked about
in the sense that there’s a lack of that
willpower or
a lack of um real agency for if you do
have an addiction or are an addict uh
there are moral implications as well
that there is a lack of sort of
uh i don’t know moral
um a moral solid moral foundation that
allows you to become susceptible and
that’s the reason why you become an
addict um
there are so many
misunderstandings and misinterpretations
that are
that have really just sort of muddied
the waters and at the very least made
the field of um substance use treatment
extremely convoluted
and very disengaged from the rest of the
behavioral health
treatment community and treatment world
we’ve really when even in when you go to
graduate school you can be a clinical
mental health counselor or you can be an
addiction counselor like there’s all
there’s two separate tracks even within
even though
both of these are all mental they’re
still mental health under the big
umbrella but they actually separate them
out and you go down a different track if
you go to grad school
and because of that we have
a lot of disparity i believe in the way
in which addicts are or addiction is
treated and again
the
when we when we bring up this word
addiction
we’re bringing up so much baggage with
it that it i think what we usually end
up doing is spending almost all of our
time just going through the baggage and
never actually getting to the root
um
if you think about
substance use
the reality of substance use is it is
first and foremost a coping strategy
right it’s a way of coping with the
world
and it’s just a very maladaptive one
right yeah also
very effective right it’s it’s immediate
it’s consistent and it works
also it destroys your life in the
process but it’s a coping strategy you
know just like anything else in the in
the world is
uh just like hiking is a coping strategy
right deep breathing is a coping
strategy drinking is a coping strategy
they’re all along the same lines but
because we have this concept of
addiction we treat this coping strategy
differently and all of the sudden
the use of that coping strategy becomes
the individual’s identity and i think
that’s
where we again run into another huge
barrier yeah and in a couple inserts
there you know for folks at home that uh
don’t see it as a coping strategy or a
reasonable coping strategy i think
there’s
um
i’m just gonna call it half of americans
sitting in their offices their cubicles
whatever at home today thinking i’m
going to get that drink tomorrow on
friday night i’ve been working my butt
off all week i’m deserving of it i’m
going to go home and chill i’m going to
have a six pack i’m going to lay i’m
going to watch the game got a lot of
playoff things going on in those sort of
ways
we don’t talk about it as a society but
we are literally using that opportunity
at the end of the week that happy hour
session or whatever to cope with the
things and we almost create a narrative
that we’re deserving of it absolutely on
top of that right
as well too and then a you know another
pivot in two i always talk with you know
you know patients at work you know at
least you know make it to my office and
you know i i love running but i think
for anybody who would see a common
runner down the road i think we look
okay run or they’re healthy they’re
doing a healthy thing i think we’ve
looked at runners in society and said
that’s really unhealthy at some point
you we become sickly because we run so
much and there’s consequences associated
with that i think we look at people who
are you know muscular and we see that as
a healthy thing in a coping magazine but
then we look at some people are muscular
like i think we’ve exceeded this as a
coping as a reasonable coping mechanism
uh in that way and so just wanted to
i think highlight just some examples for
the those who might disengage already
from the episode and thinking that it’s
not a comment well it’s your earlier
point right this idea of vulnerability i
mean there are people that can have a
glass of wine at night as part of a
coping strategy right it’s a way to sort
of release kind of come down from the
day to just sort of relax
uh help enhance your meal what have you
um and that is a perfectly adaptive
coping strategy right however there are
those with susceptibilities and
vulnerabilities that do not have that
same adaptive approach to substance use
so the coping strategy becomes
maladaptive right but they’re both
regardless still coping strategies right
it’s still a way of processing engaging
or
sort of coming to terms with the day or
with your life uh sort of through
external means
essentially and
i don’t know how much you want to
piggyback on this or state more about it
but i think you know in the past
episodes we’ve done together you know
you’ve parsed out how jason as well too
how we’ve gone from
not just addiction of drugs and alcohol
but then there’s sex addiction and
there’s gambling addiction and all of
these other addictions that are starting
to take place
um
and and really at the end of the day i
think it it it seems more reasonable to
draw it back down to these are all
potentially coping strategies and the
way that we’re actually looking at their
maladaptive coping
strategies and when we start using other
language it feels more reasonable and
sensible to stop
stating addiction that is the case
yeah and i think
the coping strategy implies that
something needs to be coped with which
is i think what you were talking about
as well
and you know you listed the kind of
process addictions if you will and then
you know substance addiction
uh
when we begin to look at it as a
maladaptive maladaptive coping mechanism
then we then we can see that those
behaviors aren’t function a person isn’t
functioning very well with those
behaviors
we get to dig deeper and figure out what
um what is driving that and then also uh
install kind of healthy coping
mechanisms rather than
um
viewing the addiction or that behavior
itself as the primary issue
and then that oh and i identifying that
individual as an addict right as i was
going to mention that too
because that word addict um which
it’s such a shaming word
and that’s you know that’s me getting
into the counselor piece but um it’s a
pejorative like it is meant
uh to look down on somebody and it is
meant to look at um
some sort of moral failing or something
like that that someone hasn’t has
occurred incurred rather than just kind
of recognizing uh that the coping
mechanism somebody went to uh just
turned out not to work very well for
them even if it did help them to deal
with whatever was driving the issue
absolutely and i mean there’s complexity
to substance use to substance use as a
coping mechanism or an added complexity
because there is a physiological impact
yeah right yeah and so then all of a
sudden so it does become more complex to
a certain degree rather than something
like um i don’t know deep breathing
right because you do have these
physiological components where you start
to develop things like dependence you
suffer from things like withdrawals i
mean so there are complexities to it at
the same time i think when we talk about
adaptive and maladaptive coping
strategies again we choose to look at
the behaviors and then the underlying
reasons or motivations towards movement
towards those behaviors and that allows
us to again really dig deep and really
get to the core of the issue rather than
getting stuck on these sort of like
moral failings or these labels or
kind of pejorative identities yeah in
the i mean to the physiological you know
brain aspect and point of it too i mean
one thank god for neuroplasticity at
least in this moment there is an
opportunity to create new neural
frameworks around um what is already
formed in that regard but
you know the
the thing that i think i want to say
about it and the challenge around it is
that even though that’s there and it’s
maladaptive as a coping mechanism the
person is suffering and so they want to
deploy skill sets into the world that
will alleviate that in some sort of way
and to me that nagging physiological
brain state is just a strong tug in that
direction because we’ve been so we’ve
we’ve told the brain every single time i
brought it up several times on this
episode you know i got a trigger i
insert a drug i got a trigger answer to
drug well you take away the drugs you’re
still being triggered at all times and
then where are you putting that energy
to over time you know helping heal the
brain in that sort of way so
i certainly don’t want to take away i
don’t think any of us do that there’s
this nagging brain state now left over
from the event of
the events over time that have caused
what we call addiction today
but to be clear it’s a pull in a
direction of maladaptive behaviors right
rather than um it being the core issue
it starts with the core issue the thing
that needs to be supportive um
the trigger
and then the tug in that direction so
without putting too many words on it
like that is correct right that is the
what i think
as you were talking brandon i was just
thinking about how
um if we kind of
look at depression
i find there to be a significant
parallel how when somebody is depressed
it is really hard to get out of bed and
sometimes they don’t get out of bed
and we can judge that all we want um
and i and i think that’s where we begin
to find some correlation that like
depression other
anxiety other mental health issues have
behavioral components that make us feel
like hey if you just stop get out of bed
and you’ll be okay or
stop pacing or just go to sleep at night
or whatever
and when people are really wrestling
with with um other mental health issues
other than uh substance use
there can still be that um these
underlying behaviors that still need to
be addressed and then the the underlying
issues underneath them and and for some
reason it’s really easy i think for us
to be like okay somebody’s depressed
let’s find the thing in the items that
are kind of driving that depression
and the behaviors of not getting out of
bed but we we’ve lost some of that
curiosity um with addiction although i i
think it’s coming back or with uh
substance use yeah sorry absolutely yeah
great correct thank you thank you good
sound yeah good save i was shaming you
yeah
we
have to do away with the word yeah yeah
at some point in this episode
can we just start bleeping it yeah like
it’s a bad word yeah so you know when we
when we
trauma and somatic experience and all of
the um it could be a whole nother
episode and of itself but it seems like
there is a major bend
toward
trauma as integrated care within
treatment episodes uh in that regard and
i think that’s telling you know we get a
lot of phone calls to peaks and people
say oh well they didn’t deal with the
trauma in the past episode that’s why
these things continue to occur if we’re
translating that right it’s person
experience is something trauma caused
you know emotional dysregulation under
certain conditions
they experience that moment and then
that strong tug in this direction uh
pulls them you know back into that
addictive cycle uh in that way of things
but
if if that’s true again then we’re
working on the mental health issue that
is trauma um the dimensional three asam
criteria not the drugs in and of itself
right there’s no
there’s no therapeutic intervention of
like
let’s create you know kind of like what
emdr does maybe a backward dive into an
awareness around the trauma like we
don’t bring the drugs front and center
in that regard i guess some treatment
protocols might call for that in some
environments but again it just seems
like it takes it it always reverts back
to a causal
you know
rudimentary
mental health issue and then the drugs
are an external maladaptive strategy to
that internal issue it never feels like
in all of the times that i’ve met
patient care and family systems that the
thing we’re working on is that
physiological brain state
um
and we work on coping strategies around
those cravings because they do exist
at the end of the day but
even that seems to get away from it
being about the drug itself
yeah
well i’m sorry i was just going to say
i mean i can think of
people very very recently at peaks you
know who literally
it seems to occur with some of the
our younger clients who um
maybe haven’t developed some of the
other coping mechanisms that we’ve
talked about but they come in and their
substance is removed and then they’re
like i can’t
stop thinking about my trauma i’m just
getting these flashbacks or i don’t
like the correlation is blatantly
obvious uh with some people
um that maybe are a little less defended
or don’t have other uh kind of
strategies for dealing with it or for
masking their trauma like
there’s some people that just literally
are like i quit using or i quit drinking
and all i have is trauma and this
doesn’t make life worth living right we
look at those people in the eye all the
time and they then those people
oftentimes this
i mean once once once you’ve taken away
that coping strategy
uh and you sort of exposed the the wound
underneath whatever that whatever that
wound may be
um that’s also a really high risk time
for people to run right like for for
leaving against medical advice or
against clinical advice because all of
the sudden there’s exposure right and
they
and because the there are no coping
strategies that are adaptive mechanisms
that have been added to sort of help
soothe um the per and help the person
sort of cope with those uh
with those really highly acute and um
and and really overwhelming emotions
people
well the brain
literally tells you to go and do drugs
because that’s what will make me feel
better and
that’s that’s the really tricky thing
about substance use as a coping
mechanism there is that physiological
tug that takes months
years sometimes to actually
to mitigate to the point of where you
don’t
where the risk of relapse is actually
significantly lowered
it it makes it it’s also what makes
substance use and um
one of the most highly acute mental
health diagnoses because there is this
physiological component to the coping
strategy that has to be dealt with
alongside the clinical or
behavioral health emotional compo
psychological component and trying to do
those two things at the same time
becomes very complex it’s it’s very
difficult and it’s one of the reasons i
think
that um
the treatment in general for substance
use
if they’re not
treated at the same time together is so
unsuccessful yeah
and
maybe you guys can help me out with this
analogy it’s been a while before i
thought about it but it’s coming up for
me here in this like a dia diabetes is
often like a
sort of side-by-side analogy of
addiction and we have um
two individuals in need of stopping one
using drugs and one eating and you know
a certain way or
needing to
readdress their lifestyles to maintain a
healthy life you know moving forward
and curious uh from your guy’s
perspective how accurate that is because
i believe i’ve heard in some conferences
in special settings before but also as
well too
that
it what what i hope to do is diffuse
this notion of like it’s the drugs over
here because for the diabetic over here
it’s this poor eating habits and it’s
these foods well
for both these individuals the diabetic
has to figure out a way to move away
from those behaviors of the foods that
are causing the in you know disrupting
the insulin levels and all that sort of
thing within the body
but for that individual as well too
there’s a reason in which like those
food
eating habits have become maladaptive
and they need to find those
um better suited ways especially with
this new condition for going about their
world that’s in front of them
so i bring it up because again as as a
mechanism of diffusion of these external
things when really you have this
internal suffering in the individual and
just as difficult as it is to ignore
that tug the diabetic still has to
ignore that tug towards the unhealthy
eating habits
yeah i think um to be clear it’s type 2
diabetes you’re referring to okay not
type one yeah type one let’s get that in
there uh
yeah
just be clear and i’ve heard the same
metaphor and um
you know because i think
the metaphor comes from uh you know that
type two diabetes uh there’s a component
that is behaviorally driven right like
um and that can be that it can be
behaviorally controlled
uh
earlier in my career i worked for um the
pharmaceutical company eli lilly
um who actually i believe is the company
that developed insulin
first and so they out of indianapolis
and they
um
still are a leading researcher on uh
diabetes medication and so part of our
training
we had just tons of patient
information and behavioral interventions
and all this mental health stuff that we
would uh provide to endocrinologists and
in primary
care physicians because compliance with
a healthy diet or even just taking
insulin or measuring uh blood sugar uh
was quite low
and oftentimes people would change their
behaviors as soon as they started to
feel better or started rather than
realizing that it was the meds that were
helping them and so i think the the
metaphor
makes a lot of sense in a lot of ways um
and then i think uh in other ways it
doesn’t make sense but i’ll follow it
over to you
yeah that was more of a slide it doesn’t
make sense go yeah
i
i guess um
where the hole in the metaphor for me is
at what point do you ask the diabetic
why why are you eating like this right
like why is why have you developed a
diet that has led to
what is noticeably um negative
consequences and continue to engage in
that diet regardless of the fact that
you know that you’re hurting yourself
right that’s to me at that point
um
unless you ask that question you lose
the metaphor but i think once you ask
that question all of a sudden you’ve
started to align with somebody who
struggles with substance use because
you’re looking at maladaptive coping
strategies right but you don’t get to a
maladaptive coding coping strategy until
you ask for the question why and get to
motivation right that’s if you don’t
know what you’re
coping with then
then you’re not really talking about
coping strategies anymore and you it
comes more towards again uh it’s a moral
deficit it’s a lack of self-control it’s
a lack of will power uh lack of
self-respect you know that’s all of
these very shamey
um narratives that start to pop up and
um
and so i think that
when you
get rid of going back to the original
question right when you get rid of the
word addiction and or when you get rid
of these sort of very uh in the word
addict um
you
eliminate the shame
shadow right and all of a sudden you can
start to
see things much much more clearly
because it’s just about seeking out
why is the behavior what need is that
behavior meeting right
really building insight into that
motivation
and then slowly over time developing
alternative coping strategies that are
much more adaptive and that more align
with the person’s well-being and their
desire to get better right
things get very clear at that point
right and all of a sudden we’re not
caught up we’re not caught up in this
hundred plus year
narrative of oh well you know i have uh
i’ve lost all control in my life and now
i need to hand myself over to a higher
power in order to regain it it’s like
uh you know the higher power component
is actually meeting a different need as
well that is really getting to that is
probably to some degree when it works
answering part of that why are you doing
this question right
um but again i think that we
we complicate things right right and
addiction in the an addict as concepts
are
more than anything just complicators
yeah yeah and we’ve done uh
uh you know kind of trailing down to the
end of the episode here we’ve talked
about it um not that it this should be
word language that’s continually
deployed in the world it’s certainly
shame based but out of the rooms comes
this language of the dry drunk
and the individual who’s been absent
from drugs and alcohol for some time
period but has this
sort of
my reel from it is that there’s
significant emotional dysregulation
still there’s still anger there’s still
you know shame there’s still sadness
there’s still all these other sort of
things and
i think um the language should not be
used but for the sake of the
conversation it’s it’s pointing at the
real problem absolutely you know in the
absence of alcohol i still have to live
with this i still have to live within
this world
and
people are looking at me in a way to get
this terrible language dry drunk because
i may be without alcohol but i seemed
just as miserable as if i were on
alcohol it’s white knuckling right
another term right or the the coping
mechanism just shifted from alcohol
to a a without any addressing any of the
actual root cause right and then not to
discredit the 12-step world and it’s in
the 12-step process because you know
that can be part of the coping
strategies that replace
um this the maladaptive ones it can be
very adaptive and also help to really
develop insight um but it doesn’t
necessarily get to the very heart of the
matter right like it there are
layers upon layers that need to be
addressed um with any mental health
diagnoses right and
um
stopping at sort of the mid the like
high mid layer is is for some people
it’s just not enough for some
maybe you know for some people it’s they
are very successful in 12-step world and
um
are able to utilize that platform to
develop to both gain insight and develop
more adaptive coping strategies
i think we would be remiss too if we
didn’t mention
that there’s a stigma with mental health
in general yeah absolutely
we’re trying to get
addiction just to get to be on par with
mental health but that’s there’s already
a stigma on top of that
um because there is a stigma about being
weak if you’re depressed or
weak-minded around your trauma and all
of that and
that part just feels really important as
part of this discussion is that we’re
we’re fighting an uphill battle with
this word addiction but there’s also an
uphill battle kind of in general with
the culture with mental health uh
stigmatization yeah it’s like we’re just
trying to work deal with one stigma
instead of two right right because we
just get to the one yeah let’s drop it
down and the
and that’s that’s important and
certainly we could talk about that uh
for at length as well too but i i on on
the way out here i think that the thing
that i want to talk about as well too is
because we run into individuals say who
come to us with opioid use disorder
opioid addiction in the language of it
right and then we say something like
well what does drinking look like for
you i actually drink very low i care
very little for it right they’re
explaining whether or not it’s adaptive
or healthy over here that it’s a
non-issue right and that the issue is
this but it’s it’s a maladaptive
behavior for some you know other core
issue and in that way of things it feels
like
what we also want to eliminate
i want to be very careful about this but
addiction in that regard isn’t
abstinence forever and it doesn’t
necessarily have to be that way and i
think this is
wildly new territory especially within a
stabilization phase we’re probably not
going to talk about this side of stuff
this is aftercare you know sort of
therapeutic approaches to this but
um to be addicted to all things just
because of this in this way even though
this thing isn’t actually a maladaptive
feature in one’s life
it seems like it helps us move away from
these abstinence-based concepts as well
too and i think
you know that the light tone i want to
put on it is if i’m 21 years old and i
have this opioid use disorder issue and
i walk into a treatment center and they
say addicted to this
and abstinence forever there’s an
unreasonableness that um if i’m putting
myself in their shoes that comes with
that way i just turned 21 it’s actually
not a thing i can’t remember the last
time i drink i’m just really stuck in
this thing right now
and it starts to
change the potential for the individual
that’s in that chair and provide greater
opportunities under those healthy
coping mechanisms that
if it is the drink in the individual
situation in the future i’ve dealt with
this emotional dysregulation instead of
going to the bar for happy hour because
i’m angry at work i dealt with that
anger about work before i got to the bar
as an experience
and it i think is more supportive of
individuals especially young adults who
are just in vulnerable positions and
have to live the rest of their lives uh
in that way and can’t really foresee
themselves way out in the future not
doing other things that their friends
are doing and the other things that
their friends are doing aren’t opioids
at this time well and again i think that
that just highlights the
the
the issue with saying that well you have
an addiction so now you’re an addict
right like now you have this terminal
thing that becomes part of your identity
that you never get rid of and you’ll
forever have to deal with and no matter
how old you are whether you’re 21 or
you’re 75
you will wear this scarlet letter
forever it’s
really
disheartening right it’s extremely
overwhelming and it too is and again
like this is
there’s a lot of nuance here but it’s
it’s inaccurate in a lot of ways um
for some people that
concept of
uh abstinence is just absolutely
necessary and it’s what they need and
it’s what works for them
and we are in a lot of our programming
has is
rooted in abstinence right like
especially at the stabilization period
because we do have the brain does have
to heal right and it is
and there again we talk about
vulnerability that you are still
vulnerable to replace one with another
like one maladaptive coping strategy
with another maladaptive coping strategy
and that could be substance replacing
one substance with another so all of
these risks are very real and of course
again a very nuanced conversation
very um
yeah it could be pretty volatile i think
to a certain degree depending on who
you’re talking to
um but it does highlight this idea of
of one of the the major problems with
this idea of addiction is that i have an
addiction now i’m an addict and i’m an
addict forever
and i think one of the you know the the
charitable takeaways from a conversation
like this as well too is that i think
the goal in early treatment is not to
discourage people about their future
opportunities but to engage them in the
suffering that brought them to a program
like ours in the first place
and somebody comes in and says i have
this opioid use disorder and we label
them as an addict right away that can be
language that will immediately they’ll
pull the eject button the ama it’s
language in the way of the opportunity
uh at times and that feels full circle
to me unless jason you want to drop the
mic on something here on your way out or
just another layup
really uncomfortable and volleyball
spike yeah
yeah
i don’t the only thing i want to follow
up with uh
about for
was just with the young people the
heroin addict drinking again to me
if we look underneath that you know what
drives a lot of addiction or at least a
symptom of it is certainly this
isolation and this hidden life and so
you know to me my new my language that
i’ve wanted to develop over the last you
know a few years of my career too is
just
if you’re open with people you trust and
uh it isn’t hidden and then you’re
honest with yourself about whatever
comes up for you along your path
that feels like kind of a way to
progressively have those conversations
instead of
um because what unfortunately what i
watch in the abstinence culture is like
if somebody
begins to dabble or they want to try an
edible or something we’re in colorado
after all you know three years into
their recovery journey
they have to like disappear or hide it
and to me that is
that’s where i think
you know significant relapse can be
fostered is in that secrecy and silence
and all that i think
but being open and transparent uh to me
feels like the answer to a lot of that
yeah
dig it yeah and i think
just for me i
while i’m really passionate about this
topic obviously like i
and at the same time i recognize that
it is um it’s a tough conversation to
have and i think
uh it can be just having this
conversation a lot of people are gonna
disagree with me and again this is a
very nuanced topic um and i’m speaking
uh with maybe a tone of certainty but
obviously there there’s no
right answer in this situation i think
that
for me what i hope for is that we have
better conversations that are more open
that have more room for curiosity
as opposed to the sort of certainty that
i think we’ve approached um substance
use and this concept of addiction with
in the past yeah and in
because of these nuances and i’ve stated
in multiple episodes as well too we have
the concept of trigger and we do drugs
and trigger and do drugs the initial
mistake at least in my belief around
early recovery concepts within treatment
is somebody thinks okay trigger it’s not
going to be opioids but i can have a
drink right you know that’s the pro it’s
you’re just inserting the new
maladaptive features trigger
emotional dysregulation go to a
therapist go to a spot you know go to
somebody to talk to that about to work
through that issue on and then over time
gives us a new opportunity as the brain
heals around the opioid originally to go
okay i was triggered
i
did the deep breathing got emotionally
regulated i feel good in this moment now
i’m gonna go have a drink and i’m gonna
do it in a public space and i’m not
going to hide from it i’m going to have
support and then i’m going to take that
experience maybe back to a therapist and
somebody of accountability right so
just parsing that out a little bit so we
don’t leave the viewers with like yeah
this has to be done intelligently and we
have to take it quite seriously because
people die
resulting from
maybe miscommunicating some of these
features along the way
at the same time there’s a it’s
worthwhile it feels like to figure out a
way to kind of push this language aside
and focus on what is the real issue and
for us at peaks that’s mental health
so
with that everybody on the other side of
the screen here thank you for going
through this with us if you’ve got
questions thoughts
heated concerns about what we just spoke
about in this episode uh finding peaks
at peaksrecovery.com
we love hearing your feedback uh we love
even hearing frustrated feedback at
times so send us all of that
check us out on the facebooks the
instagrams the twitters all of those
special things follow chris burns and
peak’s recovery and his journey
uh as he goes about that a lot of energy
but a lot of um great energy around
recovery it’s fun to follow in that
regard uh join him i think he’s on next
week uh as the host and then friezma
will be like two weeks from now but
he’s kind of the mediocre host
there it is anyways we’re taking jabs
here on peaks we’re trying to have a
good time love you all very much thanks
for joining us until next time
signing off

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Episode 56Walking Through Shame, Resilience, and Self-ForgivenessWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/FPA5jN6GPD8Listen NowDescriptionIn this episode, we are joined by recurring guest Madelyn Padilla UN, and Samantha Archuleta MA, LPCC to talk about shame, resilience, and self-forgiveness.

Talking Points1. Reviewing the definition of shame 2. Explaining the different ways shame can manifest in a person 3. Reviewing the true meaning of resilience 4. Various coping strategies we help clients improve within our curriculum Quotes

“You just modeled resilience right here by telling your story and kind of getting caught up in it. That takes a tremendous amount of courage. But that’s what weakens shame, I think when we own our story, the good, the bad, and the ugly. That’s what helps build our resilience.” – Jason Friesema, MA, LPC, LAC, Chief Clinical Officer

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 56 Transcriptsempathy is knowing your own darkness

without that connection you don’t have

anything what’s the opposite of

addiction just freedom

hello and welcome to finding peaks i’m

jason friesma

chief clinical officer of peaks recovery

centers here in colorado springs and

denver

joining me today

madeline padilla admissions specialist

slash test driving co-host here with me

today guest co-host maybe yeah

and um

and samantha archuleta primary therapist

uh for

our iop program as well as uh doing some

work for our in residential program as

well

um thank you guys for uh joining me

today on finding peeks

um

you know i’m following up the last

couple times i’ve hosted uh we’ve talked

about grief

and so i wanted to keep it light today

and bring up

shame

if we could and resilience

and uh and even self-forgiveness if we

could but uh obviously i say that in

some just but

i’ll start with kind of talking about

what shame is um

and i learned a lot about shame in all

fairness from brene brown i actually had

the privilege of

uh being trained by her specifically in

and um it was a phenomenal conference

that she put on um

and i’m like

whoever this is i like what she’s

talking about but i don’t like the topic

um

and so

shame is pretty much defined as uh

feeling bad about who you are

and um

usually shame statements start with the

words i am um and then

uh and the thing about shame is we all

have it it’s ubiquitous every single

person on the planet pretty much with a

few exceptions probably

carry around shame we all have it

and um the tricky thing about shame is

it tells us uh that if we talk about it

if we expose it to the light

people want to flee from us they won’t

want to be in relationship with us

anymore um

and so we tend to hide it and then it is

that very hiding of the shame that

causes it to get worse

and it reinforces itself

and then frankly uh the reason i think

it’s such an important topic for us to

talk about is that i think it’s one of

the huge leading factors that lead

people into relapse either on substances

or with their mental health issues is

that they just are calling themselves a

piece of garbage all the time and when

and when that is the message that

somebody is telling themself all the

time then that is

uh how they’re going to begin to act and

behave

um

and so that’s just kind of my little uh

overview of what shame is uh and it sets

the tone for this

um and the other thing that i do want to

point out we all have it and then

usually when we talk about it we usually

feel even more of it for a minute and so

i just want to acknowledge that if if

people are watching at home or whatever

and we talk about shame well you might

experience a little bit of it but stay

till the end because we have a solution

for it um make friends with it make

friends with your shame uh invite it on

the couch take a seat but it’s sid chad

um it’s already talking to you so you

might as well invite it in

um anyway so there’s my intro

um samantha i’m gonna go to you first

and and my question about shame is

how do you see it showing up uh for you

and your clinical work with clients

often times with our clients i think

shame shows up as

any other emotion they’ll deflect anger

sadness frustration um

wanting to leave wanting to get out of

the situation because their shame is so

powerful telling them not to talk about

it yeah we’re gonna talk about

everything but this piece and then as

soon as you get to the shame with our

clients it’s almost like they melt into

recovery and treatment and

wanting to get better now because they

realize that

they we see them and that they’re not

worse worse off for being seen they’re

better off for being seen

yeah that’s that’s good no and you’re

right though if

there are there are there is data to

suggest that if you ask people a group

of people what are the most destructive

emotions that there are they will always

answer anger and fear every single time

and that is not the case at all

but no one ever that didn’t even make

the top five right but

shame by as far as the most destructive

absolutely yeah yeah but anger

close second would be fear so it makes

sense that that’s what you see the most

yeah

and i think you know i think you make a

good point that people do often mislabel

it and you said it i think right before

we came on the show here but people

often

say things are embarrassing but they’re

actually quite shameful

right like embarrassment um

[Music]

is uh

is an emotion that we experience it

feels the same like you flush you might

turn red or whatever but but really

embarrassment is categorized by it’s an

emotion

um that is fleeting like it goes away

very quickly with time and usually

you’re gonna laugh about it later you

know what i mean like if it turns out i

do this whole show and i’ve got a booger

in my nose

um i’m gonna have a i’m gonna feel

embarrassed i got a big one bat in the

cave

um

but i’m gonna feel embarrassed but it

could happen to anybody and honestly at

some point i’m gonna laugh and think

it’s actually kind of funny right if i

experience it as shame i’m just gonna be

like i am such an idiot uh because i

can’t even take care of my hygiene that

makes total sense you look at um

embarrassment guilt is is the amygdala

in the brain right and then you you you

look at someone that’s experiencing a

lot of shame it kind of is in the right

and it’s up in the front yeah

where does our sense of self come from

or our projection of ourself in the

future uh oh

we’re up there in the front so yeah it

totally makes sense that those would be

very different um consequences yeah to

both of those things

yes

guilt

guilt guilt’s what yeah you know it

comes and goes

you know what gil keeps us in the

parameters of society and it is very

good i think it’s constructive i don’t

i’m not gonna steal this it’s all good

because i know that that’s wrong and

then

with the shame piece it’s like this is

me i’m like the my core this is me a me

problem and it’s it’s not something that

comes and goes and that’s it’s like you

are that thing you know i get that on

the phone a lot from people too or they

say he has no shame he is shameless

he’s using drugs in my house he’s doing

this he’s doing that it’s like

he doesn’t have it he is it yeah that’s

what it is you know it’s not something

that he has it’s something that he is

and

when you put it like that people take a

step back

it’s not that’s not an accountability

issue that’s a

a place of being issue yes yeah when i

and i you are exactly right and i’ve

shared this on finding peace before but

you know i i’ve done a group on shame

and i love to ask like who in here feels

like they’re the worst person on the

planet and at least half the group

raises their hand

and i think you’re exactly right yes

they’re using drugs in your house not

because they don’t feel it but it’s

literally because oftentimes the very

things they’re telling themselves

they’re just reinforcing like if you if

i’m the worst person on the planet of

course i use drugs in my parents house

makes sense

right i’m the worst person on the planet

that’s what i’m calling myself and that

is a very shameful statement

and and not feeling shame is about

would be about like i’m trying to cause

harm to other people like i have malice

in my intent

and and i honest i’ve done this work for

single person

that i felt like has true malice that

they really are trying to be that

destructive you said something

in one of our um

in one of our trainings with admissions

you said people’s behaviors make sense

yeah and you say this to me all the time

people’s behaviors make sense

if you if you take that lens and you

look at everything through that lens the

behavior makes sense you can access way

more compassion for people

you

people do what they feel that they are

right and so

him hiding out in your basement you know

that totally makes sense yeah because

he’s because he’s the pos right because

he’s whatever yeah

people’s behaviors make sense that has

really helped me in a lot of situations

absolutely

so how do we build resilience with

people because that’s the opposite of

shame right is to to work on building

resilience

um within them and sam i’m going to

throw that question to you of course

i think it’s

compassion and empathy is the biggest

one which is so bernie brown of us

to say empathy is the it’s the light

that heals the dark part that we don’t

want people to see

empty for self empathy for others

sometimes when you can sit with another

person and you’re ashamed and they can

share their shame and you can have a

moment of you’re both in your shame and

it’s okay and you still value each other

care about each other and can

love each other after the fact

then there’s that empathy that we need

that we can heal and move forward with

love

yeah yeah

literally

compassion is it sit and suffering

that’s the breakdown you sit and you’re

suffering and you’re sitting together

together and that’s it right so

community i guess two powerful words me

too

me too that’s a big deal yeah that’s a

powerful statement there

that’s the double whammy you can sit and

do the me too

that’s it that’s your moment

man i’m gonna i’m gonna ask you maybe a

little bit more of a personal question

like have you built resilience for

yourself

in your journey

okay

i’ll tell you a story about a

shame storm

okay okay yeah usually there’s another

four-letter word on this i’ll tell you

something crazy um

so

early on when i was in treatment

i had a couple housemates that i was

feeling kind of close to you start kind

of dipping your toe in checking people

out maybe maybe they’re cool with me

maybe people want to be friends with me

you know you start

trying different things out and i will

never ever ever forget this

until the day that i die i was sitting

with someone that i really felt like we

were getting close and she said we’re

talking about family and i told her that

my brother was currently addicted to my

drug of choice and she goes what are the

odds of that that he would be he would

find the same thing that you’re on and i

said well no it makes sense because i

introduced him to it and and she stopped

and she looked disgusting she said i

have a brother i would never do that

and it still makes me a little emotional

because i’m still working too i’m still

human but all i needed to hear was like

oh me too or i’ve done something like

that

i have a brother i can’t imagine doing

that and it was just like a storm i mean

i was like this is no matter how much

progress i make this will always control

me

it doesn’t matter what i do how far i go

i will always carry this around with me

for the rest of my life

um

so in that moment i was able to just

think about

what other people had been telling me

that was working which was you are

enough i mean this was constant you’re

enough you’ve always been enough you’re

enough then you’ll always be enough so

i went into that mode and i had um

maybe it was you they said one of the

clinicians telling me that in that

moment and that’s what because i can’t

access that that self-compassion piece

we’re not there yet that’s light years

away at this point and that’s something

that was really helpful and now i can do

it for me some of the time

yeah

that’s it

well actually you just honestly modeled

resilience too by just kind of talking

through that story and

getting kind of caught up in it and i

think that takes a tremendous amount of

courage

but

that’s what weakens shame i think is

when we own our story the good the bad

the ugly i think that’s what

helps build our resilience always i

don’t know what do you what do you think

sam i think

it’s hard to speak to

resilience and things when we just

witnessed it and got to see

that you have compassion for yourself

that you trust two people

that you and i don’t know each other

well you and jason know each other for

years that

to sit down and sit in that with us i

just it’s an honor and i think talking

about it being an honor is important and

being able to say like thank you

for doing that is important in these

moments

past the educational piece

go grab a coffee later

that was fun we’ll let you guys have a

moment but um

sam i do feel i do feel like it’s

important like how how do you see our

curriculum kind of meeting people with

their shame and and how do we address it

kind of as an organization

yeah i think

the way that i’ve seen it done in groups

and i think you actually taught me how

to do it in these groups is kind of

facing it head-on is let’s bring it to

the surface

and then let’s remind you that you’re

good enough that you’re going to be

enough you have been and you will be

and i think we also implement this

beautiful thing of inner child work that

lets us um let your inner child know

that you were enough then too and lets

the grown-up version of you go back to

that inner child and bring it on this

journey of self-compassion and

self-acceptance i think is before

self-compassion we have to accept who we

are what we’ve done the child version of

ourselves what’s happened to us in order

to then move into that compassion piece

and i think our curriculum brings all of

that to surface

and then lets us sit with our clients

and say like you’re enough you’ve been

enough you’re always you know right

always this intrinsic value piece is so

hard

it’s a hard

if someone doesn’t have that intrinsic

value where do we even start like how to

treat other people how to treat yourself

forget it that that’s ground zero that

is like

the foundation of anything is are people

worth something not because of what they

do but because they exist yeah

i think all good treatment needs to

start right there right there that’s the

the core of this thing

yeah and

shane tells you

right everyone else has value like i can

see it in everybody else

it’s exactly right exactly except for

you it’s beautiful when we run the

groups and clients can look at each

other and say like i feel shame about

this and then we’re like can you say

that to anyone else in the room can you

say that to an inner child of yours

they’re like absolutely not no one else

deserves to hear that except for me

and that brings it to light when they

can be like oh

i also don’t deserve to hear that and

hearing those moments in groups and in

sessions when clients can say oh i also

don’t deserve that that’s when the light

switch changes for them and they can

start building that compassion and that

intrinsic value mm-hmm

[Music]

what i i have found it is amazing

um

it probably was me who told you you are

enough it is amazing just

um

making those efforts to um

begin to replace some of those messages

right because

ultimately the other thing that’s kind

of at the core of shame is that what we

really want is to be fully known and

fully accepted

and to have people be in relationship

with us anyway right like they accept us

even if they see all those things

and the other thing that i think um

we hold true and i actually was talking

about this with our with our leadership

on monday

um this last monday um

[Music]

they’re like

everybody we are all doing the best we

can when clients walk into our door that

hard story you just told about your

brother even in that moment

you were doing the best you could with

what you had

and um

[Music]

and when we can find that in people like

not only does people does all behavior

make sense in context

but people are really doing the best

they can even if it even if they’re

using and they’re in the basement of the

parents house and they’re going against

the rules and they’re violating their

probation or whatever might be happening

likely at the core they’re just

trying to do the best they can right and

that was a bid that was the bid there

maybe maybe we could be closer or i’d

have someone in this with me yeah that

behavior makes

sense yeah and then it’s easier to segue

into the forgiveness thing oh that

behavior makes sense i understand why i

did that at that time

when i hear you guys talking about this

i think of

moments in

individual sessions and in groups when

clients can say

that they

don’t blame their

younger self anymore that they blamed

themselves for this pain that they

are feeling and this when they can turn

around and say like i don’t blame myself

anymore like of course i was a 17 year

old kid struggling because of everything

around me like that makes sense to me

and it’s

i can’t talk about i tear up most of the

time talking about this but how

beautiful it is to watch a client

realize that sit in that and say like i

don’t i’m not mad at myself for that

anymore i can forgive my younger self

which inherently leads to forgiving

themselves now

touch and go as it comes up yeah as it

comes up because i’ve done that i’m like

i’m enough

and i believe it and it’s real and it’s

and i’m in it and it’s like it feels

great it feels great and then something

else might come up right something else

might come up oh my gosh we’re back

we’re back to square one that’s okay

that’s the deal i don’t know if there’s

ever a total resolution on

some of that we don’t need resolution we

see recovery that’s it and that feels a

little bit like the human condition of

right this is going to keep coming up

and there’s going to be tension between

like i feel bad about myself i feel bad

about this thing i feel poorly

and there’s tension there totally and

then leaning into that tension which is

the shame and then we can move on it

move on again and grow and have empathy

for ourselves again

that’s why i think we can throw out the

relapse prevention piece okay

what are you gonna do in your board or

what are you gonna do you know it’s like

people will actually get through those

things people will get through boredom

people will get through there’s

people are resilient

the whole relapse prevention could just

be like how do we how do we cope with

how do we wrestle with shame yeah

and that would be good enough that would

be actually the whole enchilada right

there yeah i think it’d be way more

successful than than the other thing you

talked about and i think it is what i

think we work pretty diligently to do

it it’s my it’s our focus i think as a

clinical team to say

we want to create the confidence to say

that when i bump into shame i know what

to do right

it doesn’t make it feel better in the

moment it doesn’t mean that like when

you are in the midst of

this or when you have an interaction

with somebody and

they hit your shame gremlin right where

you didn’t think it could be hit anymore

and you plunge into it um

we want to build a path a process an

understanding like okay i know i need to

reach out to people i can’t do this

alone i need to find my me too people

that can just sit with me and say i get

it i’ve been here too

full stop like there isn’t a solution

there’s just like

just having that empathy that that

person that can just sit in the dark

with you

um

and that’s what i think we are trying to

do is to say that right and i think

can can people walk out of peaks

and hopefully walk into a lower level of

care that’s older discussion and find a

way

to build have enough resilience to say

okay i know how to do this i can walk

this path i know because the other thing

shame lies all to me about anyway is

that i feel like i’m going to feel that

way forever this the moment the shame

gremlins come in i’m like this is it

i’m gonna i’m gonna feel like this

forever

um

and just finding that hope and that

process of being like okay i actually do

know

how to walk through this now i have a

path i have a process right

i think we as like the first people that

interact with our clients get to be the

people that show them that it’s there is

a me too there is

sitting with someone in the darkness

it’s not lonely and it’s not that which

then gives them the

courage

they build the courage to go out and

find other mewtwo people and find those

people for themselves and they get that

empowerment to be able to find it

because we’ve shown it to them yeah

so i think that’s part of that first

steps of it all is showing them that

they’re not alone in that

right

that’s why i love disclosure

i think

let’s go there like that’s why i think

it it’s so so important that

we are able to carefully and

thoughtfully disclose our experiences

there are times where it’s not helpful

for sure but like that’s an opportunity

to to help reduce or minimize or at

least just simmer down a little bit of

shame

worthwhile

absolutely worthwhile you know and

you also said something interesting

jason you said i am statements

are powerful and they are they have a

lot of power i am what

and that’s why i love the direction that

we’re moving because

i remember this too distinctly before

talking about shame walking into an old

school traditional meeting and they said

i said i’m a person in recovery and i

was really

just delighted yeah say that right and

they said we don’t say that here

i am what

i’m a person i am what oh i’m an

alcoholic i’m a drug addict our clients

are so much more than yeah yes

they are so much more than that and

that’s so reductive

and even that statement i am an addict

or an alcoholic if behaviors make sense

yeah

what does an addict do

use

what does an alcoholic do drug

there’s so much more than that i’m so

much more than that so

that’s my benefit and you are right from

the beginning like you you don’t become

more right

you are if you’re struggling with

addiction right now you’re still more

than your addiction it’s just really

masking it

so i think you know we’re kind of coming

up against the clock here but now you

shared kind of before

i want to take us out with with the

meditation you shared and this is the

type of thing we do like kind of a

little mindfulness to kind of walk

through all the time this sort of thing

um

so if you wouldn’t mind doing your

meditation and this is how we’ll kind of

end our episode love it okay

close your eyes

oh we’re doing it all right

we’re gonna go back to a time in your

mind

that you felt overwhelmed or totally

enveloped by shame

and then i want you to think about what

you needed to hear

after that moment

what you would have liked to hear after

that moment

and then

we’ll sit on that for a second

what you needed to hear in that moment

okay

now i want you to think about a person

or two people or three if it’s a real

bad shame spiral you were in

three people that you deeply respect

and admire

and then you can imagine them saying

that thing to you that you needed to

hear over

and over

and over

i’m enough that’s it i’m enough i’ve

always been enough i’ll always be enough

i’m enough

that’s it thank you for doing that

thank you what a what a great way to end

i do appreciate you both coming on the

show again i thank you for that

um

i’m jason friesman i’m signing off uh

like us on facebook instagram

the other ones

and tick tock

and we’ll do this again in a couple

weeks thank you all and have a good one

View Details

Episode 55Modern Day Depression Causes & RemediesWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/we-L7Gn1kdkListen NowDescriptionIn this exciting episode, we are joined by acclaimed Dr. Ilardi, to discuss his knowledge on how modern-day depression is caused and remedies to help.

Talking Points1. Going over how modern brains are different from brains of the past 2. The toxicity of rumination 3. Remedies to help with modern depression Quotes

“Depression is following a pattern, that we see with other diseases, called diseases of civilization. Where these diseases are really really endemic and highly prevalent in the west and not very prevalent at all among aboriginal groups. … Our ancestors didn’t get depressed very often. Why? Because presumably, they had protective measures woven into their day-to-day lives.”-Dr. Stephen Ilardi, Ph.D. Professor, Clinical Neuroscientist

Episode Resources:‘The Depression Cure’ by Stephen S. Ilardi, PhD

Therapeutic Lifestyle Change (TLC)

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 55 Transcriptsempathy is knowing your own darkness

don’t have power without that connection

you don’t have any what’s the opposite

of addiction just freedom

all right

team

fans of finding peaks welcome back to

another special episode

uh with a special guest today

part two of this journey as you’ll

notice i’m wearing the same clothes

because i was asked by the production

crew to keep it simple keep it straight

come back look the same so it doesn’t

look like you did this on the same day

which we would never do here at finding

peaks ever uh in that regard time is of

the essence brandon burns chief

executive officer for peaks recovery

centers joined today apparently we’re

co-hosting jason freeze exciting lpclac

chief clinical officer we are also

joined by chief operating officer clint

nicholson lpclic

chief of all things as we learned in the

last episode

and again our special guest dr stephen

elardy clinical psychologist researcher

professor university of kansas also

author of the depression cure join us

again here to do

another deep dive into the book and

welcome back uh you know what i’m so

excited except for the part that i’m

just now realizing i’m wearing the same

exact clothes and now everybody’s gonna

be like oh that dude has like one outfit

yeah um it it is actually the same yeah

yeah it’s understandable or traveling

yeah

yeah yeah it’s it’s it’s the humble

midwesterner in you it is a

good refrain yeah

i i’m i’m delighted to be here

yeah always a pleasure um haven’t seen

you in four years the viewers might not

know this but that was our initial time

together in uh washington where we where

we originally met but without going down

that rabbit hole

of how we became good friends

in the process

i feel like there should be some special

music for this little monster to be a

little montage clayton and i can leave

yeah like we can step out yeah

we’ll ignite the candle yeah that’s what

i’m talking about right yeah ritualistic

important aspect

of the depression cure

i think anyways on the last step is so

we didn’t get an opportunity to explore

we’re calling it the schtick the the

thing that’s important the the narrative

for why the tlc model makes sense the

thing that we can

um gravitate towards and appreciate

about why we’re exploring these things

in the first place and so

um

without giving the whole introduction of

your book away because we want the

readers out there amazon.com uh order

the book local library all those things

find it read it it’s excellent but

without giving it all away what is this

for the setup well so there really is a

story behind it so

i i’ve been a clinical researcher for 32

years now

and

about 15 years ago

i was getting so frustrated

with the fact that

yeah we know a lot about clinical

depression but we’ve barely moved the

needle in terms of patient outcomes this

is 15 years ago i was like okay you know

we’ve got

a whole armamentarium of medications and

psychotherapies and evidence-based

practice and all the things

more things actually now than we had

then but

um

we weren’t getting great outcomes and

particularly what was vexing for me

is the societal burden of depressive

illness was growing so depressive

illness went from 30 years ago it was

like the seventh cause of work-related

disability in the u.s

now it’s number one it is the single

leading cause of work-related disability

it’s a major cause of death

through depression-related suicide it’s

a major cause of

relationship dissolving

unemployment it’s i mean it’s it’s

exacting this huge toll

and i stumbled on the work of an

anthropologist somebody in a completely

different field this anthropologist

named edward schieffelin

who was studying aboriginal groups and

he spent 10 years with a group in

the highlands of papua new guinea

they’re called the kaluli people

and one of his questions was

okay well

how like when the kaluli gets sick what

does that look like and how does it

compare to when we get sick and then he

was like

what about mental illness so we got

himself a dsm for viewers who may not

know that’s like our diagnostic

psychiatric bible our bible of diagnosis

takes a dsm

people and he’s like okay well like what

kinds of mental illness did they get

and one of his findings when i saw it it

smacked me in the face it was like

somebody like splash cold water on me

and it was like oh out of 2000 members

of the columbia people he’s found one

case of marginal depression

i’m like

wait that’s like

one percent of what we have

and their lives are arguably harder than

ours they don’t have any modern medicine

they don’t have any of our technology

they have a high rate of infant

mortality they have a high rate of

parasitic infection like all kinds of

really tough things and yet they don’t

get clinically depressed

what the hell’s going on

and then i started thinking wait a

minute

depression is following a pattern that

we see with other diseases called

diseases of civilization

where these diseases are really really

endemic and highly prevalent in the west

not very prevalent among aboriginal

groups like what like atherosclerosis

heart disease like many forms of cancer

like oh here’s one hemorrhoids did you

know aboriginal groups do not get

hemorrhoids why because they don’t spend

their day sitting down

they’re active they’re up they’re moving

tooth decay i mean they have it but not

the way we do why because they’re eating

not processed foods right they’re eating

whole foods

it’s like oh depression fits that

pattern wait a minute that sparks

another

association

the human species lived primarily we our

ancestors until 10 000 years ago

everybody lived as hunter-gatherers so

all of our ancestors spent their entire

lives in this group of 30 50 people

on a lifelong camping trip with their

closest friends and relatives

and that’s the way the kaluli are living

today so

oh okay so our ancestors

didn’t get depressed very often probably

just like the kaluli don’t why because

presumably they had all kinds of

protective things woven into the fabric

of their day-to-day lives

likewise

they probably did not have to fend with

lots of the things in our lives that are

toxic

so even though we love in many i think

we do love lots of the things that we

um take advantage of in 21st century

american life i mean i love my laptop i

love mocha lattes i love i mean there

are all kinds of things that like i am

not

i’m not a luddite i don’t want to get

rid of technology i love technology

but many of the things like social media

which we’ll talk about later many of the

things

that we experience day-to-day traffic

and you know fast food and i mean i

could go on

are psychologically toxic so

here’s the sound i’m finally now at a

moment of sound bite here we go

everybody brace yourselves

our ancestors were protected

by several things that were woven into

the fabric of their day-to-day lives and

we can reclaim them

bring them into the present

and

have the best of both possible worlds

have the best of modernity

jettison the toxic things that are

present to modernity and embrace or

reconnect with the healing habits of the

past

it may sound like a tall order

but

i don’t think we have any choice because

the societal burden of depressive

illness now

it’s one out of three americans are

going to be cut down by this massively

disabling painful illness at some point

and

that rate of depression is going up with

every generation so gen z

kids that are college age or below

they’re already at like 20 25

their lifetime burden if we don’t do

something to turn this around it’s

probably going to be 50

and um

so that was the genesis of this idea of

oh

what are the things that the kaluli are

doing that are protecting them what are

the things that our ancestors benefited

from by the way quick side point of the

shtick you ready for this

here’s the shtick

if our hunter-gatherer ancestors were as

depression prone as we are if they were

as vulnerable as we are given how much

harder their life objectively harder

their lives we

we would have been obliterated as a

species yeah

tens of thousands of years ago we never

would have made it we never would have

lasted this long so we know

given how debilitating depressive

illnesses we know that our ancestors had

to be way less vulnerable than we are

why why do we not have

genetic protection there should have

been massive selection pressure

to give us antidepressant circuitry

to mimic the antidepressant effect of

all of our best meds and other best

practices

why don’t we have it we didn’t need it

why because the antidepressant was woven

into the fabric of our lifestyle

just like by the way interesting maybe

maybe interesting side note

did you know

that

primates that subsist on fruit

you’re injured going this is really

random steve i hope you’ve got a pointer

there are primates

relatives of ours who only live on fruit

they’re called frugivores

the genetic machinery

that they would normally use to make

vitamin c did you know that most

primates

have genetic machinery that their bodies

can make their own vitamin c awesome

but when they became frugivores

now they were getting so much vitamin c

in their lifestyle

that there was genetic drift and all the

the genetic machinery to make vitamin c

was allowed to basically drift and turn

off there are all these mutations that

accrued and it doesn’t work anymore but

it’s still there

it’s a genetic fossil

it’s in our dna right now every one of

us sitting around the circle have

basically vestigial vitamin c machinery

in our dna

doesn’t work anymore

even though our ancestors long since

went away from being frugivores

they don’t have the genetic machinery

anymore so now we have to get the

vitamin c from our diet right

it’s kind of like that with us with

depression

our ancestors had they were like frugals

they had all the protection everything

built in

and now our environment has radically

changed why because technology because

we learned to become agrarians and then

finally we had the industrial revolution

and the life that our kids lead today

would have been unrecognizable to our

ancestors they would look at it and they

would be like this might as well be on

mars it’s so different

so what do you take as the most taxing

feature in the in the change right i i i

you’ve talked at least in and while i’m

present with you’ve talked a lot about

uh the fight or flight response yeah as

the most taxing feature and we have it

in the tribal culture certainly there

they have it we also have it as a

genetic code set right and then we are

living in the industrial world

and what is the

what is the tension there what’s

creating the most

yeah i love that yeah so i mean it turns

out we talked about this a little bit

earlier

that the single most important driver

in terms of the neuroscience of

depression is not

a deficit of serotonin the single most

important driver is the brain’s runaway

fight or flight stress response that

just will not shut down

and then all these downstream reactions

because when the brain is in runaway

stress response mode for weeks anyone

who has any genetic vulnerability or any

other acquired vulnerability their brain

shuts down and it’s just like okay dude

you are sick

like literally physically ill like

fighting the flu fighting covet you shut

down you want to crawl into a cave

and so our ancestors and if we look at

modern day aboriginal groups if we look

at modern day hunter-gatherers

when they go into fight-or-flight mode

it’s for a few minutes it’s for an hour

it’s oh i have to escape that predator

oh i have to uh

get down below treeline while there’s a

lightning storm oh i have to run back to

safety there’s this other hostile group

over there they sent a scout out i need

to scurry back to my

my people right does that make sense so

in other words

our fight fight-or-flight reaction is

designed to get us moving vigorously in

the face of physical threat in the

ancestral world that was very

short-lived in the modern world

we have that fight-or-flight reaction

going off all the time we’re sitting in

traffic and it’s going off well we’re

not physically endangered hopefully most

of the time but our brain thinks we are

right and so we’re all revved up

um we’re going to brain think we are

what what’s

started to activate it what keeps you so

activated

because symbolically

we’re our our

our apis brain

is not it’s unprecedented for an ape to

be traveling in the steel can

going down the road at 70 miles an hour

with all these other steel cans and all

these other people and and people are

being mean to us and they’re like

cutting us off and they’re flipping us

the bird i mean not that they would ever

do that in colorado but you know

in kansas they might um

and

and

our our brain is trying to make sense of

this and it’s like this seems stressful

it seems threatening this is like

bad things could happen

here this is unprecedented it looks

dangerous it feels dangerous and

especially the oh no it’s now it’s

congested oh i’m running late oh i’m

gonna miss my thing oh i’m gonna you

know

and by the way we you know we’re

constantly plugged in to a news medium

that’s that’s telling us constantly

your world is dangerous you know bad is

stronger than good and and and news

purveyors know that if they want to grab

our attention with the news if it bleeds

it leads right if it’s if it’s bad well

guess what in a global village of 8

billion people there’s always something

horrible happening there’s always

something scary there’s always something

outrageous always something dangerous so

we’re bombarded with all the outrage we

go on social media and it amplifies it

and pretty soon you have a group of

people walking around constantly in

fight or flight mode

for a million and one reasons

and all of the natural braking systems

the things that would put the brakes on

that in the ancestral environment

they’re missing

so it’s like we have if i can use

another car analogy it’s like we have

many things in the modern world pressing

the accelerator

of our

fighter flight system and the brake

lines have been cut

and our ancestors had lots of

woven in braking systems like what like

time immersed in nature

like

time immersed in the tribe where you’re

surrounded by the people who care about

you

like physical activity which is

profoundly

it’s like um

okay you know how thermostat like when

you when you turn up the heat in the

thermostat in your house it’s getting

cold

and it’s checking constantly for the

feedback like oh did this work did this

work did this work and then when it’s

finally hot enough the thing shuts off

that’s our fight or flight response

system what’s it designed to do what’s

the thermostat it’s get moving get

moving get moving get moving what’s the

feedback it needs to shut off oh yeah

you’ve been moving

you’ve been really really really active

why does exercise turn off or turn down

our stress response circuits in part

because it’s the negative feedback

the the the sort of corrective

sampled experience that says okay yeah

mission accomplished you can calm down

now

um

so many of the protective things that

our ancestors benefited from they’re

just not there anymore so we’re living

the sedentary indoor socially isolated

frenzied media addicted sleep deprived

fast food laden life and we’re just

bombarded with things that are

psychologically toxic

yeah one of the that resonates with me

so much because

i’m trying in my personal life to

not tone it down to get rid of it

because social media is such a great

part of our world podcasts and otherwise

but i find myself

feeling outraged at so many things could

be the slightest of sentence you know

that that ticks me off and that’s the

part that

i don’t enjoy about it i want to

experience it in a more positive way but

uh in tracking that outrage i find

myself not present distracted out in the

future angry at something angry at a

party a political thing an environmental

thing you know whatever’s going on

and

an hour later you know when we find

ourselves consumed by it i’m sure it

happens to a lot of the viewers out

there on social media you’re just

tricking through and you’re pissed off

at the end of it and you feel stuck in

something and

fog headed in this and all this sort of

stuff you know sort of follows at the

end of it um and i think it’s worth

talking about worth having a discussion

about because when we talk about our you

know poor little eight brains

we can’t it feels as a real natural

experience that this is something that

is very disruptive for us yeah and and

and so there’s something that goes with

it that i know you wanted to talk about

today

which is

this really really toxic habit

that a lot of us probably can resonate

with that you know technically we call

it rumination

dwelling brooding

just rehashing over and over again

negative thoughts they could be worry

thoughts things that you know that we

fear that might happen in the future

usually anxiety rumination is future

oriented like things threats that are

looming

and depressive rumination is stuff in in

the rearview mirror that we regret or

that we’re grieving because it feels

like a loss or a setback or an

embarrassment or you know something

painful a failure

and

when do people ruminate

we know that rumination is super toxic

we know that rumination will rev up

those stress circuits so another thing

back to your question of what keeps them

wrapped up we ruminate all the time when

we study

aboriginal groups they don’t tend to

ruminate

why not well in part because they have

very little alone time

and the single biggest risk factor for

rumination is when we’re alone it

doesn’t mean that being alone is always

toxic being alone can be a great a

beautiful opportunity to meditate or to

do something that we really love and

enjoy but for a lot of us especially

when we’re depleted when we’re

psychologically not

at our best when we’re alone we dwell

and we brood either about things that

threats on the horizon

pain in the past

and when people are clinically depressed

they spend hours ruminating when do they

do it when they’re alone

or when they’re disengaged

so they can ruminate when they’re binge

watching yeah they think they’re

watching or they can ruminate when

they’re surfing the net when they’re on

their phone they can ruminate when

they’ve been on social media they can

ruminate

when they are

um

talking with somebody and they zone out

and a lot of my depressed patients i’m

sure your patients as well

have you know when we bring this up

they’re like oh yeah yeah i do that like

i i can’t stay locked in because as soon

as we start talking i just i’m off to

the races

occasionally people will ruminate

together out loud co-ruminate and that’s

also toxic is there a way to like

narrowly define rumination yeah it’s

just so the word rumination comes from

it’s a it’s it’s a farming word believe

it or not

cows are ruminant

animals rumination refers to chewing the

cud

they have a ruminant pouch why because

they get a lot of their nutrition from

grasses which are very

nutritious for them but very hard to

process and so

they they they eat it and then it goes

to the ruminant sack and and there it

gets kind of pre-processed and made into

this pellet that they then

regurgitate and they they can’t they

can’t stomach it so they got a chew on

it well that’s a great metaphor for what

happens when stuff happens to us that we

can’t stomach we chew on it and it’s a

natural

adaptive reaction whenever something

happens that’s upsetting

it’s natural to ruminate about it for a

while why well you know we want to

figure out what happened why did it

happen what can i do to fix it and if i

can’t fix it well how can i make sure it

doesn’t happen again can i at least

understand it so so i don’t get like a

learning mechanism yeah

it’s natural we want to validate for

people like yeah rumination is totally

fine until it’s not

so it’s fine for how long

until we stop extracting fresh nuggets

of wisdom and learning and you know and

how long does that take depends on the

thing but usually half hour hour

and i tell my patients like look if

you’ve been ruminating on this thing for

days you’re probably way past the point

of diminishing returns right

so then you know it’s like well how do

we stop it lots of different techniques

but one of them is to say hey let’s lean

into it

they never see this coming let’s lean

into it

every time you get the urge to ruminate

get out a pad of paper or get you know

on your computer set a timer and knock

yourself out for 10 minutes ruminate as

much as you can for 10 minutes when the

buzzer goes off walk away

you have total permission

and they’re like

wait i only get 10 it’s like well do you

think in 10 minutes if you really knock

yourself out that you can extract

anything new that you can actually learn

from this session room and they’re like

yeah probably within five or ten minutes

and there’s something powerful about you

write something down and then you can

just walk away

um so i don’t know did i define

rumination it’s dwelling at length on

something either that that we fear in

the future or that we regret in the past

or that we’re grieving in the past yeah

no i think that was

far better than i could have defined

absolutely absolutely perfect tonight

and i know i can’t remember the name of

your speech and talks you used to give

in the past conferences but uh you know

the rumination i want to get into the

psychotherapy aspect of that and how we

can approach that and maybe some quick

interventions that can get us there

faster while we’re waiting for you know

per the prior episode for medications to

ramp up in the background and so forth

but

um

we’ve had a lot of experiences i think

in our industry in general as well too

the first thing we do is we take cell

phones i think the first initial take of

that is liabilities you know ordering

drugs onto a campus you know those sort

of things there’s there’s good reasons

for its absence

and then i think we started learning a

lot more about it in the clinical

setting and just hopeful that you can

feel this thing kind of about your

passion around that which yeah

well clinically

hundred years ago when peaks was a new

company uh and when i started um wasn’t

quite 100 but seven years ago

our program was six to nine months in

length and we would um

take people’s phone at the beginning

and then when we decided to give it back

it was usually about four and a half

months into a treatment episode and so

pretty much

our clients would live in this contained

environment with people they were

spending months and months with

while very disconnected from much of the

outside world in fact

sometimes i would start groups with just

kind of going over current events

because they were so disconnected from

the world like hey you may want to know

that like you know there was a tsunami

or something you know what i mean but

like

um

there’s that level of disconnection um

from

uh

from current events but also just like

from

the scroll of facebook or or twitter or

tick tock i’m not sure tick tock was

around seven years ago but um

there was so much of that and then

um i i mean i’ll never forget when we

when when i went to give a client her

phone back uh our first graduate of our

women’s program and she’s just like

i don’t i don’t want that

um and i think uh

and then we would watch our clients kind

of go through a process of beginning to

kind of

put their guard up again and kind of

beginning to escalate and just being

increasingly anxious and activated even

in

anticipation of getting their phone back

and then oftentimes the first thing they

would do would be to delete their social

media apps clinton i know you’ll love

that but like i think

um

it was a pretty fascinating process

um to watch and be a part of and i know

even some of those

uh graduates of peaks have actually

never gotten back on social media just

because they were disconnected from it

and felt such a great relief during that

time

and i do

it’s just mindful for me just thinking

considering this rumination concept how

much

sometimes our regret or rumination isn’t

even about big things it’s about some

some of the most mundane

comparisons that we’re drawing or

whatever it is it doesn’t have to be

you know the grieving of a parent like

it can be just like

somebody looks like they got a promotion

that i didn’t get at a job and i feel

terrible about that yeah i mean some of

my worst bouts of rumination honestly

have been

oh i was just in a faculty meeting

and one of my colleagues said something

mean

you know yeah i might have responded in

real time or maybe not you know maybe i

just i’m like no i’m gonna just bite my

tongue but then i’m driving home and i’m

sitting at the red light and i’m playing

it over and i’m playing it over and i’m

the more i play it over the more upset

i’m getting

and it’s it’ll take your breath away

yeah and and i don’t care

how

like

robust your mental health is i don’t

care what kind of a place of well-being

you’re in

if you have one negative event and you

start brooding about it within five ten

minutes you’re not in a good place

and um

it’s always an opportunity for me to to

put into practice what i preach right to

be like all right

you know like

you got to walk a walk right so what are

you going to do

what are you going to do

how are you going to do yeah what do you

do with the red light then

so

this particular example that i’m

thinking of somebody really really

pushed my buttons at a meeting and i did

bite my tongue very wisely because i was

going to say something that was not

going to be helpful

and i’m sitting at the red light

well i’m by the way i’m brooding all the

way the walk down to you know i have

about a 10 minute walk to my car and

then the drive to that point so it’s

been like a 20 25 minute bout of

rumination so i’m good and worked out

i’m sitting at the red light and i’m

like

and i had just let a therapeutic

lifestyle group the week before we were

talking about rumination one of the

techniques

that we had asked patients to see if

they could put into practice when

they’re ruminating that week

was

gratitude

i knew you’re going to see it in the

moment

in the moment

um and this ideally would be something

if you’re keeping a gratitude journal if

you’re doing a gratitude practice where

every day

ideally three

like little things like you’re talking

about we don’t ruminate necessarily

about the big things

gratitude is i think best

practiced with the little things i mean

obviously the big things we’re grateful

for as well but

um

so i’m sitting at the red light

and i’m like

okay gratitude gratitude

and this is so amazing the the the um i

think we often fail to appreciate just

how much our memory access is guided by

our mood state

if you are in an angry mood most of the

easiest memories to pull up are going to

be other times you are angry

i kid you not

especially other times you’re angry at

that same person

if you’re in a anxious fearful mood

state your memories are way easier if

they’re other worry related sort of does

that make sense yeah absolutely so i’m

sitting there and i’m angry

and i’m i’m like i got nothing

and i’m embarrassed there’s nobody

around and i’m just embarrassed i’m like

i cannot believe i’m freaking

you know

teaching preaching this and i’m i got

nothing

and i’m like

steve you have so much to be grateful

for i’m having a talk with myself

and and the answer is yeah but i can’t

think of anything right now

and and i and i’m like this is i will

never forget this moment

because

i’m getting way deeper insight into what

my patients are telling me because

they’re like you know what in the moment

this is hard it sounds really

reasonable and easy but in the moment

it’s hard

stay with it what do i tell my face stay

with it stay with it it’ll come

stay with it what what about earlier

today

was and and in a flash puppy

puppy jumped in my lap while i was

having my coffee this morning puppy

licked my face

puppy cuddled with me and then i just

melted and the damn broke and now i can

think of a million things i was grateful

for

i don’t know if that makes any sense at

all but yeah but it it um

once i was able to connect with anything

i was grateful for the anger melted the

rumination spell was broken

and i was able to just enjoy the rest of

my drive come home in a much better

space to greet my wife to greet my puppy

to you know is your dog’s name puppy

his name is teddy the wonder dog

even better yeah

that’s your question though yeah yeah so

so we called in puppy yeah this this has

me uh you know brene brown’s dare to

lead book is coming up for me in this

regard because uh and the you the

viewers are just going to have to excuse

my language because it’s in the book

sfds shitty first drafts as she

describes it in her book that we have

she actually gets that from the writer

anne lamotte okay anne lamott and her

extraordinary

us for beginning writers or aspiring

writers called bird by bird

and she has an entire chapter called

shitty first drafts okay yes were we

talking about her on our walk yesterday

no okay

that name sounds familiar but

but in that regard she talks about the

experience of the shitty first draft is

the build up the reason we do it one we

we want to we’re curious we want to

figure out what took place what the

problem was what the solution is those

sort of things

but whether we arrive at a conclusion

that’s accurate or not we per the book

at least if i remember it correctly we

get a dopamine kick and so there’s an

advantage to doing it but for the

depressed patient the trade-off for that

dopamine kick

sounds

uh

massively

off where we get stuck in a

fight-or-flight phase and so maybe i

guess the question here is

from your experiences in research and so

forth is that dopamine kick true

for the depressed patient as they’re

ruminating do they get something even if

the trade-off is significant yeah that’s

i i really like this question so

there’s something incredibly

addictive

and seductive about rumination

it’s tantalizing it offers the promise

and i cannot tell you the number of

patients that i’ve worked with

that when they’re just being very real

and very honest they’re like

yeah i i know it sounds stupid but i i

every time i ruminate about this breakup

i i think like

this time i’m going to figure out why he

left me or this time i’m going to figure

out why he cheated on me or this time

i’m going to figure out why everything

went south or this time i’m going to

figure out why why that job didn’t work

out or why i didn’t get that offer i

thought i was going to get or why didn’t

get into that grad school or

what i’m saying it’s like

rationally i know this makes no sense

because the last 500 times i’ve

ruminated about i got no further into

but it feels like this time it’s it’s

like lucy in the football

you know charlie brown’s like no this

time she’s going to hold this time i’m

really going to kick it

you know

and that’s what rumination does it holds

out this promise of yeah this time it’s

really going to connect and you’re going

to figure it out

so it has this seductive alluring

addictive quality it is dopaminergic

but then at this horrible cost

of ramping up our stress circuits making

us more depressed more anxious more

angry

more disconnected by the way the

opportunity cost

i know that’s an economist term right

but the the like what are we giving up

when we ruin it you know we’re giving up

the world of other people and activity

that we’re designed for we’re not

designed to be living in our heads but

when we ruminate we’re stuck in our

heads

and most americans spend way too much

time lost in their head we give up our

here and now we give up the moment yeah

we’re sleepwalking we’re you know the

zen

meisters throughout history have always

said

be here be now you know right now be

fully awake sure but rumination is so

deceptive right because it it’s almost

uh dressed up as a solution right it’s

like it’s

it presents itself like oh i’m going to

come to a solution i’m actually i’m

coming to resolution at this point but

it’s not it’s completely usual

and the reason it’s like a trojan horse

in a way because it it presents itself

and it says well no look everybody

ruminates and and by the way rumination

not only is it normal and natural but

it’s it’s helped you before yeah like

remember that one time when the thing

didn’t go well and you started thinking

about and you figured out why and then

you made a course correction and it’s

like bro you should be ruminating more

absolutely right because this is the

best thing you can yeah yeah yeah don’t

go to your friend’s house you need to

stay here and figure this out you need

to just stay here

hunker down

absolutely uh

yeah it i mean

it

what’s that unpredictable reward that is

actually the most rewarding right would

people yes receive that but it’s

unpredictable when they’ll receive it

that’s the knowledge that pushes the

lever the most right that’s a condition

yeah can i use that in mind that’s my

next version of the depression career

yeah actually

jason friesman yeah

remind me i gotta give him the credit

for that um seriously that’s that’s

phenomenal so yeah there is this sense

of um it’s like the did you guys ever

study this in in psyc101 whatever you

know the pigeon on the variable yeah

the slot machine it’s like

as long as it’s delivering the reward at

some point you don’t know when

then you’re going to keep at it and yes

rumination even for the addict yeah the

ruminative

ruminative addict it will still pay off

sometimes yeah so they’re going to stay

at it right yeah that’s that’s so good

yeah

genius

yeah

who’s mentoring who here just i don’t

know

i’m gonna steal my thunder we’re done

but we should talk a little bit more

about how to break the rumination habit

maybe yeah yes

you know and i

and i think uh just to kind of set that

up from the prior episode that we were

on you know we were talking about before

our friend friesma arrived here that you

know there are two general approaches

that are taken a lot of medication

pushing for 60 you know 76 percent of

the population major depression

population they go into a setting they

get the medication they walk away

not a great outcome generally usually

their primary care doc yeah they’re

they’re doing all the heavy much of the

heavy lifting

not because they should

they know that

but because they’re they’re standing in

the breach they’re they’re filling the

gap because so many depressed patients

are getting nothing

and they show up at their you know

primary care doctor’s office and they’re

they’re hurting and the doc is like well

i don’t have a lot of time or anything

else but like hey i got some lexapro

like maybe that’ll help i got some

effects or maybe you know

so they’re

they’re getting minimal care

but the doc is thinking correctly this

is better than nothing yeah and maybe

the public is sold in that moment as

well too because they just saw the

commercial like you’re depressed yes i

am we have this pill perfect perfect

yeah i’m suffering so right you know and

then

it uh then you get into those settings

stress environments or otherwise with

the family doc and it matches right it

tells the story that this is going to

provide that relief but we know in from

the prior episode that that

monotherapeutic approach this is not

going to have

the validity that we believe it’s going

to so insert the next possible thing

within a setting like peaks is we can do

psychotherapy well if if the medication

is going to work

we need time for it to work at the same

time the person wants relief right now

so generally speaking the next thing is

you know psychotherapy but so much of it

is group activity as well too but i’m

not ready for that environment so before

we get into the psychotherapy and how we

can get into anti-ruminating you know

features of this what are some of those

quick setups that maybe we can do as a

treatment center or folks can be

thinking about as home to really you

know push this forward in a more

meaningful way so somebody is suffering

which everyone with clinical depression

is suffering and by the way depression

for a lot of patients actually lights up

not just their emotional pain circuits

but those are cross-wired with our

physical pain circuit so a lot of

depressed patients will if they’re

severely depressed they’ll be like

i can’t even describe it but i’m just

hurting

and it’s like yeah it’s emotional but

like it sort of feels physical too

so they’re in agony they’re in torment

and they want relief and they deserve

relief

and so what do we have in our toolkit

that’s like well if we just throw meds

at it

that helps a lot of people but the

average

patient’s gonna take like three four

weeks before that’s kicking in sometimes

up to six weeks

what do we have is faster

the first thing is surprising

bright light therapy photo therapy using

a therapeutic light box or getting

outside for a half hour

typically ideally within the first hour

of the day

for a half hour

that dose of light the

light is measured in units called lux 10

like this in colorado springs is

probably a hundred thousand lux out

there

abroad indoor space is maybe a

be outside or use a therapeutic light

box

effects kick in five to seven days on

average

it’s fast it’s amazing

and we don’t use it nearly enough why

it just doesn’t feel like it’s not very

sexy it’s not very exciting i was going

to say that

i’m glad you did it’s not very sexy it’s

like a light box really a clunky little

or you know getting outside and it’s

like no

light is a drug light hits receptors in

the retina that have a broadband

connection to the center of the brain

and it’s fast okay so there’s number one

we can start using a therapeutic light

box

number two

there is a nutrient

called acetyl l carnitine

that supercharges the mitochondria the

power plants inside our brain cells

and we get depleted when we’re depressed

and as we age we get really depleted so

older or middle-aged depressed

individuals

respond to acetyl-l-carnitine like an

antidepressant drug

it can be purchased over the counter

it’s a nutrient it has minimal side

effects most people have no side effects

it has

therapeutic efficacy on par with

antidepressant meds typically

and it kicks in often within a week

so some listeners viewers might be like

well wait a minute acetyl carnitine

first of all what’s the dose 2 000

milligrams is the best study dose 2000

milligrams a day divided dose 1000

milligrams twice a day wait a minute

acetyl-l-carnitine you can buy it over

the counter

by the way i’m not giving medical advice

talk to your healthcare provider

but i can buy it over the counter

it’s pretty cheap

it’s fast it has minimal side effects it

seems to be about as effective as

anti-depressant meds why the hell is

this stuff not being widely used

there’s no money to be made

pushing acetyl l-carnitine

i have no financial vested interest in

it i just want people to get better and

we can leverage that we can use that

right it’s it’s a really cool little

hack

it’s super charging brain cells

okay number three we talked a little bit

about

chronotherapy

which is a fancy term for basically

we’re going to do a couple things the

first thing we’re going to do this

sounds nuts but it works

if you keep somebody with depression if

you keep them up all night and into the

next day

then

bizarrely miraculously their mood will

brighten after 24 to 36 hours of sleep

deprivation we don’t understand why i

know we talked about this earlier like

doing it we have no idea

there’s a theory that maybe by keeping

somebody up for for 36 hours

we’re basically putting the brain into

emergency brake glass in case of

emergency stimulant mode it’s like oh

this must be life threatening because

why the hell else would somebody stay up

for 24 36 hours

so it seems to recruit stimulant

circuits dopamine they stimulate

circuits in the brain that are bypassing

all the depressive shutdown

and this sounds great it works until it

doesn’t when does it stop working as

soon as a person goes to bed

but

what if we layer that

antidepressant fast rapid acting effect

of sleep deprivation

with shifting the person’s body clock

so instead of keeping them up 24 hours

what if we keep them up 28 hours so

we’re gonna phase

shift their body clock by four hours

lather rinse repeat do that six times

so we’re gonna be phase shifting them

and we’re gonna hit them

with therapeutic doses of light which we

already know is rapid acting

this triple whammy is called

chronotherapy there’s a protocol that’s

been developed and it’s very fast acting

and

it’s probably the fastest thing that

that that i know of that’s also

very physically benign it doesn’t have

lots of side effects it’s not dangerous

unlike say ketamine it doesn’t have like

abuse potential it’s like no we’re just

keeping you up and we’re shifting your

body clock and we’re giving you some

bright light

and

it’s extraordinary

love it so we have to go back to the

clinical team tomorrow and say yeah

we’re working 24-hour shifts

you’re going to feel really good for a

few hours till you fall asleep yeah yeah

yeah

everybody’s experience have you guys

experienced this though when you’ve been

up too long you start to get kind of

punchy oh yeah you know and you get kind

of giddy and you’re kind of you know

it’s the only time that i’m actually

enjoyable

so yeah um so do you want to circle back

to the the anti-ruminative thing

yeah absolutely and that’s going to be

the that’s going to be the heavy-hitting

part of this episode and i you know in

in repeating that though it sounds sort

of drastic i think i want to make the

claim too that

living in the suffering of major

depressive disorder when you’re feeling

that way drastic measures can make sense

and so these are things not to be

ignored but to be explored and

be curious about these sort of

opportunities because if these solutions

are that swift then why not right as an

experience versus the denial of the

effort of it i think that’s common

at least my felt experience within this

industry is like we don’t have time for

that or those sort of things but now

more than ever because we have more

antidepressant medications but

depression anxiety and so forth is

higher than it’s ever been now more than

ever it feels like

we should be thinking about these things

critically and whether we deploy them we

should at least be curious about how it

might work and develop absolutely you

know there’s one other thing we didn’t

mention in the other episode that i

probably should give a shout out

although you may want to edit this out

so we’ll see

there are

psychedelic agents that are

non-addictive they do not target the

addictive reward dopamine-based pathways

in the brain so we’re talking about

psilocybin

um

we’re talking about mdma we’re talking

although mdma has a little bit of reward

activity but

psilocybin lsd

ayahuasca there are others

there is increasing evidence that

taking on their own not particularly

helpful can be dangerous

taken

under the aegis under the guidance of a

skilled therapeutic guide

because the the the psychedelic effect

lasts for several hours

under the direction of a skilled

therapeutic guide the psychedelic has

antidepressant potential that is very

rapid

and so there’s

massive amounts of research

ongoing on this topic

i think there’s been a lot of hype

but i think there’s a there there i

think

i think within five to ten years this

kind of treatment could possibly be

quite mainstream

and even in an addiction center

once we’re very clear to validate with

patients like

this is not an addictive substance

patients who do

psilocybin the active ingredient in

mushrooms

do not become addicted to it

they don’t crave it when they’re done

they don’t want to do it every day for

the next 50 years

typically

i think there’s some real potential

there

again because it’s so fast yeah

we’re in colorado so we can totally talk

about it yeah yeah totally this is uh we

just garnered a whole news i think

denver was the first time

right yeah denver with the suicide then

yeah

it just went up by thousands yeah well

the thing i love about the the idea i

again the proof is in the pudding

i’m like show me you know i’m a

researcher but the thing i love about

the idea of it

is this is a drug that supercharges

psychotherapy

this is not a replacement for therapy

right this is not a replacement

for gaining insight and gaining

better connections with the people that

matter to you gaining a greater sense of

purpose in your life this is a

supercharged catalyst for getting to

that place that we all want to be for

living our best life

and

i’m like hey if this can actually

deliver the goods

this could be a game changer yeah and i

think it’s i like though that i mean the

cure to depression is not to go use

mushrooms like that’s exactly yeah

for sure that’s that’s the opposite

that’s the that’s the take-home message

don’t try this at home boys and girls

right um but it’s a tool it’s a tool

but it’s it like any tool it has it has

great potential for good or not sure it

can be harmful right there are people

that go on mushroom trips that get very

disoriented very dissociated they get to

a very scary place they freak out they

have pan and it’s that’s the start of

their panic disorder right now they’re

freaking out and panicking a lot

that was the genesis of it

um so it’s like we gotta we gotta

respect it it’s powerful

but in the hands of a skilled guide i

think maybe

there’s potential for some real

breakthrough for some patients it’s not

going to work for everyone it’s not

going to be for everyone but maybe for

some yeah and it’s just one tool right

just one

you can’t build a house with just a

hammer you can’t and um

you and i are both big advocates of

let’s do all the things yeah right let’s

let’s take down the web of depression

with all kinds of pebbles and stones and

rocks and

hammers and you know whatever

but occasionally we get lucky

with somebody and it’s like you know

some people with winter onset depression

we can cure it with light only

some patients who are like their

rumination is just so centered around

this one painful thing and we can cure

the rumination we can bring down the

whole web

just

some patients they start exercising

and that’s curative for them it’s not

many but it i mean it does happen you

know what i mean so it’s like we don’t

want to invalidate like

some people it’s like we hit that one

connective thread on the whole web comes

down

but the thing that hits it will be it’s

like 20 different possibilities

most of us are going to require like

multiple things we’ve got to do all the

things to really bring it down yeah and

that’s what peaks is all about yeah and

especially for long-term remission

exactly that’s right too and so

all right so now we have these beautiful

potential things like psilocybin that

can really increase or speed this up uh

we have some sleep deformation along

with some other things that might be

able to really speed up carnitine yeah

and bright light and now we’re in this

moment where the individual okay i’m

starting to experience some relief and

then we’re back to this ruminating sort

of feature right and this is where i

think psychotherapy comes in a big way i

think cognitive behavioral therapy

is one of the things that at least i’ve

read a lot in my googling of the world

but i’m a very poor googler at times so

is that the only thing or no what else

cbt you know that i like it’s a great

insight cbt the core think about what is

the core of cognitive behavior therapy

it’s i’m going to

change my reaction to things

by

basically learning in real time to

notice how i’m interpreting the flow of

experience what are my interpretations

what are my automatic thoughts

and then how can i challenge them how

can i gather evidence how can i have a

different interpretation how can i see

how i’m biased and maybe very negatively

biased right so that’s that’s the

technology of cbt it is anti-ruminative

for sure

patients who get really good at that

cognitive reframing

they utilize it when they’re ruminating

and so it becomes functionally an

anti-ruminative technology

but there are lots of other things that

are anti-ruminative

i think for most patients just learning

to notice mindfully to be very mindful

meta attentionally aware like what am i

aware of right now what am i paying

attention to

oh i’m ruminating huh i caught it in

real time most patients who ruminate

don’t even notice it’s like when you

drive a very familiar route and you pull

into the driveway you know how the hell

did i just like i don’t even remember

were there stop signs were there other

did i were there pedestrians did i hit

anything did i just it’s not just me

i do that in very unfamiliar routes

your mileage may vary but but most of us

like when was over learned you know

you tie your shoes and you’re like i

don’t know what the steps were but when

you’re learning you do it very you know

mindfully right

a lot of our life is lived on autopilot

unmindfully we ruminate unmindfully on

autopilot when we when we learn to slow

it down

and be mindful

throughout the day oh god i’m doing it

again i’m ruminating

so now i’ve caught it

and i’m going to decide to stop it

that’s

more than half the battle but it’s like

okay now i’m going to stop it what am i

going to do

all it takes is something absorbing to

redirect your attention to

it could be good absorbing or bad

absorbing right it could be

a behavioral addiction right it could be

oh i’m gonna play video games for the

next eight hours well that’s

anti-ruminative

not particularly instructive but it

might be better than depressive

rumination

right it might be if we’re in a harm

harm reduction model yeah right it’s

like oh

okay somebody’s depressed because

they’re ruminating

well if they go play video games for an

hour to break the bout of rumination

it’s not great but it’s probably pretty

benign right oh i’m gonna binge watch

netflix for two hours

it’s not great but it’s pretty benign

you with me

but then

maybe you know better anti-ruminative

absorbing things like what well

shared activity with a friend shared

activity with a loved one

taking my dog for a walk

um

you know something where i’m connecting

and belonging something where i feel

purpose something where i feel

you know like like a part of the tribe

and then finally i would say something

generative

that’s like apex level i would say for i

have to be in a good space for this but

like oh i’m gonna go noodle around on

the piano or the guitar and try to write

a song like i’ve had this like four

ideas for it’s like i got this song but

like there’s no bridge

like i’ll noodle on that for a while you

know

and that’s really anti-ruminative for me

it’s like i get so caught up in it like

but i have to be in a pretty good head

space for that right like some

anti-ruminant anti-ruminative activity

is like break glass in case of emergency

like oh i’m just gonna go for the big

gun i’m gonna go for the video game i’m

gonna go for the the binge watch

right

and some is more like oh if i’m in a

better place like i can enjoy my

friend’s company if i’m in a better

place oh i can

um just be alone in nature and that’s

anti-root i can get absorbed and lost in

nature but if i’m not in a good space i

might ruminate while i’m lost in nature

you see it so we got to be nimble we got

to be nuanced but that’s really fun

clinical work and i hope patients i hope

prospective patients their families as

they hear this they can think about oh

wait there’s like detective work there’s

like trial and error there’s like yeah

we’re going to fine-tune

if we’re going to help break the

rumination habit

the rumination addiction as it were

we’re going to have to be doing

personalized medicine we’re going to

have to be

fine-tuning what’s going to work for

this individual at this point in their

journey

because early on in the journey they’re

going to need lots of really really

really high high high engagement stuff

and as they get further along

they’ll be able to do higher level

you know like oh i’m going to you know

just get absorbed in nature i’m gonna do

some mindful meditation i’m gonna

you know just connect with my friend

that makes sense yeah absolutely i you

know for me it makes

especially i can think of an individual

session with a patient like that and

being able to roll through these things

in real time one-on-one let’s think

about this so you’re dissociating are

you ruining it you know we can capture

things the the challenge of our industry

is that to provide this acute level of

care and promise is that the downward

pressure from the insurance lens is to

do this for four to six hours in a group

setting depending on the level of care

and

which doesn’t seem like a great tea up

for a depressed patient also it seems

like an environment where rumination can

just go wildly out of control because

once it’s done once we’re done talking

about the topic in relation to ship to

me it feels like i can be wildly

distracted within the room and so

there’s a way to manage that though okay

i so so i where i’m going absolutely

yeah so i’ve done depression groups okay

with typically eight depressed often

severely depressed patients

that all have this rumination habit and

we’re now like having a session where

we’re going to focus on rumination

so the first session it’s a lot of

psycho-education it’s a lot of like

equipping here are the tools here’s

here’s what it is here are the steps

here’s how you you know here’s some

strategies now let’s brainstorm not

let’s ruminate out loud together let’s

brainstorm

what has worked for you

in your whole life whenever you found

yourself ruminating what had what have

been some of the things that have worked

to stop it

or and or

what would you imagine

could be a big enough gun that you could

pull out

break glass in case of emergency that

would allow you to interrupt an episode

of rumination about a rumination

let’s compare notes let’s brainstorm

together that’s fine that’s creative and

that’s not sparking rumination we’re not

co-ruminating

we’re collaborating we’re you know we’re

we’re just brainstorming together then

we come back

we have an assignment

start tracking

start noticing when you’re what are your

high risk rumination times let’s compare

notes on that when are you likely to

ruminate when are you more protected

and then

what did you practice did you are you

are you having trouble noticing when

you’re ruminating in real time what

would help with that

ooh maybe some mindful training ooh

maybe use an app that will just

periodically just interrupt you

randomly and ask you hey what are you

doing what are you doing right now are

you ruminating you know what’s the

setting and so

it’s like this can be a really

collaborative process where patients

validate each other

and strategize together

and

all the whole time not co-ruminating not

sparking each other

on the relationship because we really

want to avoid that you’re absolutely

right yeah we don’t want to let that

spiral out of control yeah but it

doesn’t have to in my experience it

doesn’t yeah

yeah it takes a good clinician because

it it

it doesn’t necessarily go toward health

like yola might tell us like sometimes

you have to provide some of that spark

and direction i think oh absolutely yeah

and and you know you have to be willing

to be directive as a therapist to say

wait i’m just i’m gonna stop right now i

hope you know i just

you know i in fact i wanna i want us to

have a chance to talk about this

after

but remember you know our goal was that

we’re not going to be ruminating out

loud together and this feels like it

could go down that that path would it be

okay with you if we just you know and so

gently validate but like redirect and

just be like no we’re pumping the brakes

right now like we’re just not going to

let it go because why because as a

clinician in a group i have a

responsibility to everybody else present

i need to keep them safe

you know and it’s not going to be safe

for them to hear about this person

ruminating about their trauma that you

know it’s like

no i’m going to protect them right right

now

but that’s not hard i mean no

it’s not rocket science really

no it i mean it’s

especially describe it it’s just fairly

obvious exactly

and just brainstorming ways to interrupt

that i think it makes sense yeah and and

i feel like most patients really enjoy

that process

inviting them into the process of

discovery like hey this is fun this is

creative like we’re gonna

and it’s it’s it’s personal it’s like

right we’re gonna fine-tune it we’re

gonna discover what works for you and

what works for you is not gonna be what

works for me and vice versa

it’s like

it’s anti-ruminative for me to pour over

a sheet of nba box scores

because i’m a basketball junkie

yeah

my name is steve i’m a hoopaholic

[Laughter]

um

my wife passes by me on my ipad and

she’s like it’s just numbers

what the hell are you i’m like

oh honey no you have no idea this is

like so exciting

it’s like it’s numbers

i’m like yeah i know isn’t it so anyway

it’s so it would not work for her right

but works for me

interesting i like that there’s that

that moment of discovery that very it’s

individualized it’s unique it’s

it feels special and it feels active

right like there’s um

this component of

being a part of your own

answer right like exactly part of your

own cure

absolutely and actually being able to

just by

um becoming more aware of what you

actually do like to engage in is is part

of the process of taking you out of the

things that keep you away from them so i

like that and then so what the next step

then would

would be what to to practice that to

actually put that into action

yeah and just to treat it as a kind of

and i use i i have to be careful with

addiction as a as a metaphor rather than

a real thing i mean there are real

behavioral addictions yeah obviously

gambling addiction is

by far the most

probably treacherous but there are lots

of other rivals

i think rumination is a kind of soft

addiction it’s it’s it’s a it’s a very

toxic habit how about that

and it’s seductive and alluring as a

habit which makes it kind of

adjacent to addiction

and i think when patients are willing to

be vulnerable with each other and share

their journeys but cheerlead for each

other it’s beautiful because now they

feel like

they’re useful they’re providing support

to you know and

my favorite moments as a clinician have

always been

watching patients

step up for other patients

and be part of the healing journey for

their fellow travelers

and i’m just there soaking it in maybe

facilitating a little bit sure but

honestly just feeling privileged to be a

part of that like you know

um so much of the magic of a group when

it when it goes well

is patients are able to discover that

they have their own latent healing sure

talents that they can share with each

other yeah the less you talk the better

yes yeah as a clinician and you get the

magic of the millions absolutely

yeah and and

it it it’s really humbling absolutely to

watch

patients have insight into each other’s

journey that i don’t have

and

it’s like oh yeah this is the way it’s

supposed to but but see that’s why i

love doing depression groups

because when people are depressed they

don’t want to be in a group when people

are depressed they want to just crawl

into a cave crawl into a hole

and they feel like nobody gets me

nobody and i’m gonna be a bummer and i’m

gonna be a downer and you know and

people are just gonna tell me stupid

[ __ ] like just cheer up or snap out of

it or you know but then they’re in a

group with other depressed patients and

they’re like oh these people get it like

they get i don’t have to explain myself

to them

and then it’s like well but i’m afraid

they’re going to bring me down and i’m

going to bring them down and then it’s

like

no there’s enough structure here to like

there’s there’s safety here

and then

they tap into their own ability to like

encourage each other and and

i don’t know it’s just it’s really

magical when it works

so

well

i love this and i know we could go on

and on and we could break out some

chalmers philosophy problems of

consciousness i’m here for it

on the next episode

idealism

viable solutions to the conundrum of the

mind body problem tune in next time

is every

particle of the universe

conscious yeah tune in next the

hand psychism on the scrabble board here

we go yeah you will steal the night yeah

oh the scrabble board yeah between pan

psychism and zyprexa you’ve got it

covered

well on our way out last time i nearly

stole some of your thunder and would

like to hear what you’re doing in the

background and what you would like to

promote here with us at this time your

podcast okay yeah so super super quick

um i’ve dipped my toes in the water with

this brilliant irish writer his name is

hugh james

he’s my like polar opposite in all the

best ways so i’m old he’s young he’s 27.

i’m a scientist he’s a poet

i’m an american he’s irish he’s cool

he’s got a great accent and we’re doing

this show together called

mental health what what a creative title

mental health wow with steve allardy and

hugh james and so we we’ve we’ve got

great chemistry somehow we and it’s

weird because we’re so

such an odd couple but like so different

that it works

and we we both like to laugh and we make

each other laugh which is really so

we’re tackling

like these crazy dark

like dark sober difficult challenging

topics with humor with humility with

curiosity and um

we have a lot of fun so that’s our show

it’s called mental health with so you

can find it mental by the way if you

just type mental health into your

podcast search thing no you’re not going

to find it because they’re a million

million you’re like mental health and

type illardie i la rdi you’re golden

you’ll find it

um

we have a youtube channel that goes

along with it we have a oh website

mental health dot fm and if you go to

mental health that’s our url mental

health dot fm

you will find all the things and we’re

growing it and we’re excited about it

and you know it’s a long shot but but

we’ve already got a little

uh faithful band of you know audience

that seemed to really value it i think

it’s my mom and like

like

q’s mom and maybe like three former

students or something but that’s how it

starts yeah you know great demographic

yeah create the movement yeah the

monster the mom and your reviews are

always a hundred percent with money so

we we have a patreon

my mom because our first patron is

awesome

is there uh on on top of that uh work

that you’re doing there uh can we dangle

a carrot around the depression cure and

update oh yeah yeah so so my publisher

has contacted me there is going to be a

revised and expanded uh second edition

of the depression cure which i’m really

excited about because

a lot’s happened um in the last decade

and lots of cool stuff i want to share

scientific stuff as well as just

clinical stuff as well so

yeah awesome

beautiful

thank you so grateful for your work um

such an important topic uh to be

discussing overall to share with the

public and the viewers of finding peaks

in your podcast and all through the

depression care and everything that

we’re doing

uh just greatly appreciate your time for

coming

listen man this is an honor it’s a

privilege i

i feel so lucky to be so old

and so

i’m 58 okay

and to be able to hang out with young

talented folks like you guys that are

like

keeping me in the game keeping me

excited and passionate and youthful and

god my hope is like we’ll be doing this

not this but you know still doing cool

stuff

in a decade and a decade beyond that and

um

i feel like the key to healthy aging

more than anything else successful aging

is staying in the game yeah

staying in the game staying challenged

physically staying challenged mentally

feeling like you matter feeling like

you’re making a contribution no matter

and there’s no contribution that’s too

small like we talked about earlier today

like you could be flipping burgers but

if you’re bringing some little bit of

joy and light and and and compassion and

humanity it’s like that can change the

world somebody’s world so and we need

you in the game yeah oh yeah absolutely

thank you well i i i’m

i’m loving the ride so much i just you

know just with gratitude

um

it’s just all about the gratitude yeah

so as we were doing this morning can i

get an amen

brother yeah totally all right well

beautiful awesome finding peaks at

peaksrecovery.com

clint’s looking at me like i do the box

thing yeah we’re just gonna put that out

yeah i know we got the talents yeah

we got chris burns president founder on

the tick tock follow us on tick tock the

other social medias uh the twitter the

facebook the instagram

all of that and jason’s gonna be like in

the hosting chair at some point and

jason is next in the hosting seat so he

will be tuned in he will be improved

from his pride

a lot of learning here yeah a lot of

[ __ ] going on love you guys love all the

viewers out there thanks for

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Episode 54Exploring Depression: Therapy, Medication, and Lifestyle ChangesWatch Nowhttps://youtu.be/tM-U-QhmYbAListen NowDescriptionIn this exciting episode, we are joined by renowned Dr. Ilardi, to discuss his knowledge on treating Major Depressive Disorder with therapy, medication, and lifestyle changes.

Talking Points1. Going over different perspectives on how to treat depression 2. Reviewing how meds for depression work in the brain 3. Explaining some simple lifestyle changes that can help immensely 4. Clarifying how the environment that contributed to the depression needs to be changed in a positive manner in order for any treatment to be successful Quotes

“I feel like, depression is so much more treacherous than we give it credit for being. It is so much harder to fix, it is fixable, completely fixable, but it is so much harder to get it right and keep somebody well. We do our patients a grave disservice by being very cavalier and saying things like, these meds are like magic. When really, the meds are helpful but they’re not all that for so many patients. But if we are willing to really take it seriously, like you all do at Peaks, that’s what I get really excited about.”-Dr. Stephen Ilardi, Ph.D. Professor, Clinical Neuroscientist

Episode Resources:‘The Depression Cure’ by Stephen S. Ilardi, PhD

Therapeutic Lifestyle Change (TLC)

Episode TranscriptsEpisode 54 Transcriptsempathy is knowing your own darkness

without that connection you don’t have

anything what’s the opposite of

addiction just freedom

hello everyone

welcome to

another special episode of finding peaks

this is a special episode we got a

special guest with us today and i’m

excited

to be a part of this group dynamic uh

today and we’re gonna also have an

additional episode uh coming soon as

well too or thereafter however it works

out in the time frame of things but

again welcome my name is brandon burns

chief executive officer for peaks

recovery centers you all know me your

favorite host trying to disrupt an

industry provide quality of care vision

insights for family systems

seeking treatment so that we can empower

you all to make best possible decisions

for your loved one for yourself and so

forth joined today as always by the

great clinton nicholson chief operating

officer great lpclic

all things clinical

to join us today the heavy-hitting dr

ryan md board-certified addictionologist

with us today uh at peaks recovery

centers and then our

what’s that chief medical officer i am

so sorry chief medical officer wow that

wouldn’t make any sense

we’ll rewind the tape we’ll fix it

special guest today dr stephen elardy

clinical psychologist researcher

professor university of kansas and

author of the depression cure the book

and joining us here today to talk about

depression major depressive disorders

all of its variations some anxiety maybe

we’ll tackle some sud along the way

welcome

hey thank you so much for having me it’s

a pleasure to be here um

i i’m in such a gas company i didn’t

realize the great yeah the great the

chief medical officer yeah

favorite podcast host or whatever you

know it’s like

i this is like some pretty pretty high

cotton that is pretty impressive i i so

i’m honored to be yeah trying to give

you some highlights too because you run

your own podcast as well too you know

that’s a new thing okay it’s it’s i

dabble i don’t know maybe some folks out

there could identify with this i get

bored really easily

so like you know i’ve done nba

consulting i’ve

i’ve written blogs for espn i’ve

done a podcast now youtube channel

um

you know it it this is new train for me

though so being on camera it’s like

not nervous at all

well now you know you can come on and

say you were the greatest host and mean

it when you say it and just really give

yourself all the credit i’m taking notes

they’re the mental notes right now but

yeah absolutely absolutely the viewers

at home are like yeah i think he is the

best host

that’s gonna be in my bag

so yeah thank you for being here excited

about this group and this bunch that we

have to really talk about

major depressive disorder

the symptomology of it and so forth and

the potential for the cure for it and

the remission of symptoms and so forth

and

as the viewers know we’ve done some

episodes with you know for example uh dr

ashley johnson a do psychiatrist with

colorado recovery services

here in town doing tms services and a

lot of great psychiatric work and what

the reason for highlighting that is

because in those episodes we talked

about medication um the benefits of it

also its limitations and the excitement

around new opportunities like tms and

sitting here with uh you know dr o’lardy

and certainly uh dr ryan johnson here we

want to uh i think reintroduce that as a

topic and highlight it through a

different lens

and have a really good conversation

about it the pros of it the cons of it

uh in that regard and a little bit more

of a backdrop and we were talking about

this earlier as well too you know when

you go to each and every single

addiction treatment center’s website it

says we treat dual diagnosis we can

treat this thing called major depressive

disorder

and generally out of that i think it’s

something like here’s depression and six

months ago you know the pot smoking was

taking place or the drug use and so

forth and somehow our industry keeps

trying to make it about this thing over

here and i think what that’s led to from

an industry standard is uh limitations

about how we treat major depression

major depression so certainly here at

peaks we’re trying to you know work

alongside you know individuals like you

to really advance new insights education

and

ultimately see

as an outcome a reduction in symptoms

around major depressive disorder and do

more than just med management certainly

meds are important but you have a

great deal of analogies and insights

into this so i’m just going to let you

fire away and then we’re just going to

wrap around and talk about it with you

okay well thanks yeah so the first thing

i want to say is somebody earlier this

morning when i was getting to know the

staff at peaks

mentioned you know the common thread

that runs through

everything that takes place at peaks

is you’re dealing first and foremost

with human suffering

whether or not somebody is battling

clinical depression whether they’re

battling a substance use disorder

whether they’re battling

associated anxiety or any of the other

so-called dual diagnoses

they’re suffering

and there’s a through line that really

connects substance use disorders and

depression and that is reduced

activity in the brain’s reward circuits

and probably a lot of the audience have

heard of brain chemical dopamine which

is the go-to signaling molecule in those

reward circuits

when we’re depressed

there’s a syndrome that goes along with

it our fancy we got a fancy word you

ready you know it the audience may not

and had anhedonia from the latin

no hedonic no no pleasure right

um

the dopamine-based reward circuits in

clinical depression don’t fire so the

person now doesn’t enjoy their normal

activities the way they used to they

don’t have sex drive anymore they don’t

enjoy food anymore

and

the person who is battling substance use

disorder

when they stop using what we typically

find is their dopamine reward circuits

are very blunted

they they’ve been kind of kicked into

artificially high modes of activity with

whatever they were using

and now they’re

in this state maybe they’ve gotten

through withdrawal

but they’re they’re in recovery and they

often have a lot of craving

and the reward circuits are throbbing in

anticipation like

what is out there for me

and they’re going through day-to-day

life often feeling like things are kind

of

blunted things are kind of dim and pale

and life doesn’t have the vivid colors

well guess what that’s exactly what my

depressed patients say

and we see the same kinds of underlying

neurological deficits in both and what

is exciting to me

is

many of the same strategies that can

help

with that suffering and loss of pleasure

and depression can also help in

addiction so to bring it back around

full circle

what about the role of medication what

about their old drugs well it sounds

kind of ironic and i don’t know if you

want to go down this rabbit hole but the

idea of using drugs to treat substance

use disorder strikes some people as

counterintuitive

right yeah

and yet there’s a really compelling

rationale for it in all kinds of ways

and we can talk about that in a bit but

one of the things the drugs can do

is to help those reward circuits that

have been kind of fried

in the grip of addiction in the grip of

substance use disorder to help them

normalize more quickly so the person can

enjoy the things respond to the rewards

that we’re supposed to

rather than this artificial sort of

reward

well when it comes to depression

you hear a lot about serotonin

you don’t hear nearly as much about

dopamine but dopamine function is

crucial

in depression well why do we hear so

much more about serotonin because most

of the depression drugs target serotonin

why are the depression drugs not

as effective as we wish they were i mean

they certainly help a lot of people

don’t get me wrong millions of lives

have been improved

but they’re not the game changers for

many people that we need them to be that

we want them to be why not in part

because when you give a drug like our

ssris or sssnris to ramp up serotonin

signaling very often you’re

simultaneously pushing down on the

dopamine system that’s why we have

sexual side effects it’s one of the

most common side effects right you’re

pushing down on the on the reward

circuitry well that’s not really what we

want

in depression so we need to augment that

effect with other things and you know

because we’ve talked about it a lot

that i’m a big big proponent of the idea

that there is no magic bullet in

depression there’s no single thing

fancy word monotherapy there’s no

monotherapy approach there’s no magic

drug that’s going to completely cure

forever a person’s depression most of

the time there are you know rare

exceptions but

um the drugs have a place they have a

role but we have to augment it we have

to do all the things we can’t just rely

on the one thing we can’t rely on the

monotherapy

so that’s that’s just the first premise

i wanted to put out there

i know there are a lot of different so

i’m curious now too you know and um

certainly we’re presenting to the team

earlier which is so grateful for it was

so uh informed on educational but why

why how are we in a situation which i

mean maybe it’s just speaking science or

we just don’t have the application for

it yet but why don’t we have drugs that

do the dopamine thing rather than the

serotonin we do okay so the one that

probably a lot of the audience have

heard of is is the generic is bupropion

the the trade name is either depending

on whether you’re taking it for smoking

cessation or depression the trade name

is wellbutrin for depression or or zyban

for smoking cessation same drug

um

and

the problem is that depression is often

and by often i mean over half the time

accompanied by a lot of anxiety

and if you give a drug like wellbutrin

it’s like oh okay so we’re going to ramp

up dopamine that’s good we’re going to

ramp up rewards signaling that’s good

occasionally a patient will even have

spontaneous orgasm

on wealthy trend okay um side effects of

podcast

we will circle back around

there was a grey’s anatomy episode by

the way for interesting yeah um

so

it’s no joke it can ramp up reward

signaling

but it can also ramp up anxiety okay

because the circuits are kind of

cross-wired a little bit which it’s a

long story we don’t have to go into but

so um well what else can we use well

stimulants

right adhd meds like um like adderall

like methylphenidate ritalin like

vivants all these drugs also ramp up

dopamine can they be helpful in

depression yes

absolutely

are they commonly used no why because

well they’re controlled substances a

have a high addiction potential or at

least moderate addiction potential be

but c they also ramp up anxiety

and so a lot of prescribers are very

loath to use them even though we’ve got

these dopamine deficits

in depression

that if anything a lot of times the

medications that we’re throwing at

depression can make worse

so then it’s like all right well what

can we do that’s non-pharmacological to

ramp up dopamine

and it turns out thank god there are

lots of things like physical activity

like

ambient sunlight exposure which is about

and light is a drug literally photons of

light are drugs

that hit specialized receptors in the

back of the eye in the retina that have

a broadband connection

to the center of the brain the

hypothalamus

and they

not only

renormalize our body clock which gets

out of sync and depression

not only regulate our sleep regulate our

hormones but kick up dopamine signaling

so we’ve probably all had this

experience when we go out on a bright

sunny day like we happen to be enjoying

today

if we go on a long hike or something

regardless of the activity level we feel

energized we feel stimulated and often

we have better focus because of that

sort of stimulant-like effect

when people are depressed though what do

they do they they don’t go outside they

crawl into a cave their brain is giving

them a signal to shut down pull away

withdrawal

and

part of

effective clinical work with depressed

populations is validating for them like

look

your brain is telling you that you’re

sick your brain is telling you just like

when you have the flu

get away from everybody crawl into a

cave lick your wounds

rest tight for a couple weeks till you

heal

and when you have the flu that’s great

listen to the brain when you have

depression that’s the last thing in the

world you want to do because that’s

going to make it worse

and so a lot of

the threading the needle with depressed

patients is validating yes of course you

feel like shutting down yes of course

you don’t want to be around other people

yes of course you have no energy and you

have no initiative and you’re suffering

and you’re hurting

but we have to partner together to help

you not listen to these signals from

your brain that are actually broken

signals right now

and if we can

if we can pull off that particular

clinical trick then we’re actually

ramping up dopamine signaling and that’s

the part that i think so many people

don’t get they’re like well wait a

minute if you have a brain chemistry

problem the only possible way to fix it

is to throw drugs at it or to you know

put some powerful magnets on the brain

and call it tms or you know do

electroshock there if you’re something

very somatic

but what we know from the realm of

neuroscience the realm that i’m trained

in is experience changes the brain

and

activity changes the brain and the food

we eat changes the brain and our ambient

light exposure changes the brain so all

the things

we think of as like oh my grandma could

have told me

to go get some fresh air my grandma

could have told me oh go get some oh be

active

but grandma didn’t know that this is

like powerful powerful psychoactive sort

of intervention

yeah so what i’m hearing though is that

at least one of the primary barriers is

that all of the things that you need or

at least

a good um

a good chunk of the things that you need

to get better or at least to start to

overcome depression are things that your

brain are telling you to not engage in

exactly right and that’s part of the

tragedy right of depression absolutely

and you know just to build on that a

little bit so imagine i’m depressed

and my doctor gives me an antidepressant

let’s say

um lexapro sure it’s one that a lot of

people have heard of acetal frame

and

um

one of the things it’s doing

is it’s eventually going to kick up

activity in my serotonin circuits what

does that do well

it’s going to help put the brakes

a bit on my stress response circuits

which is good because they tend to be

way too active in depression

but they’re also going to do this really

cool magical thing called

neuroplasticity they’re going to

increase the brain’s ability

to make new connections and new

associations and by the way that ability

is really compromised in the presence so

when people are depressed they cannot

easily learn new things they can’t

easily acquire new

associations and new parts of their

repertoire they’re kind of

closed sure and so you give them a drug

like lexapro is like oh this is amazing

this is going to kick up

the brain’s growth hormone it’s called

bdnf if folks want to look it up and now

they’re going to have greater

neuroplasticity here’s the problem

most patients with depression who get

treatment all they get is the drug and

it’s like here take this drug

and good luck with that go back to your

life

and well in a lot of cases their life

has some toxic elements to it so we’re

sending them to an environment that’s

negative

or at least that has some prominent

negative features sometimes by the way

is a side effect of the depression

because when we’re depressed we’re not

at our best and we can actually have a

sort of corrosive effect on some

relationships because we’ve been shut

down because we’ve been withdrawing and

we’ve been ghosting people and we’ve

been not responding to them

and now we give them the drug okay great

i got more plasticity but i’m going back

to a life that has a lot of negative

elements and now i’m

making those associations so it’s like

oh

the drug is making me more responsive to

my environment and i’ve done nothing to

fix my environment

yeah

hey

maybe that’s a reason why these drugs

are not more effective than they

actually turn out to be maybe these

drugs have the potential to be a lot

more effective

if we could attend to the

neuroplasticity angle and provide a

supportive context so provide

a beautifully healing support of milieu

yeah this sounds like an ad i love it

and i’m thinking about going you know

for the for the viewers out there that

can’t see you know your slides in your

presentation right i’m thinking of the

pie chart right where 76 roughly 76 77

of the time they’re just getting that

you know mono therapeutic approach

through medications most patients with

depression if they get treatment all

they’re getting is meds all they’re

getting is meds that is wild

when it’s such a complex issue as we’ll

get into certainly here around your web

analogy and so forth and then i think

out of that as well too it’s somewhere

you know 4.8 to 5.6 percent somewhere

and they’re just received psychotherapy

alone

and then 18 roughly of the popular

population receives both psychotherapy

and medication as a management

at the same time in lieu of that pie

chart and that incredible data right we

have more depression anxiety and so

forth than ever before

and then we have these medications and

no wonder we’re arriving at sort of a

frustration here in american culture

there’s such

a belief in

the med only a sort of approach yet it’s

not really resolving the problem and

it’s kind of like you know for me i i

just i want to shake the tree of

american culture and say let’s wake up

to this and let’s put

all these other benefits like you were

talking about the light and all of these

natural things and also how through

psychotherapy maybe it’s a residential

program maybe it’s ambulatory you know

uh you were saying something uh

wonderful earlier as well too like how

can we be you know the frontal lobe how

can we be the how can we do that for you

as you get well in the process yeah

should we unpack that a little bit yes

please so

so

i

that’s like page 9 15 100. it’s all over

the book so

yeah please unpack it okay so

um

depression hits so many different

circuits in the brain and takes them

offline or or just compromises them so

they don’t work as well and one of the

most important to me

is this set of circuits in the frontal

cortex and they lateralize to the left

so it’s really cool people are always

fascinated by left brain right brain and

a lot of the popular ideas about what

that is are are off-base but

one of them to put it gently but one of

the ways that lateralization matters is

the left frontal cortex has circuits

that help us go after the things that we

want and initiate

sort of pull the trigger if i can you

can i use that metaphor yes i’m in

colorado with that yeah

pull the trigger on

our

um the things we want to do so if i’m

sitting on the couch i am sitting you

know if i’m sitting on a couch and i’m

like oh i should get up

and i should get out it would help me to

get up and go for a brisk walk outside

maybe walk the dog whatever

um if i’m depressed

my left frontal cortex takes that

impulse

and it’s like

flatline like oh i should do that i got

nothing

it’s like i’ve fallen and i can’t get up

it’s like i’m sitting and i can i and

and what our depressed patients tell us

all the time

is i know the things that will help me

and i can’t make myself do

them when i started crafting the

therapeutic lifestyle change program for

depression what several colleagues told

me is yes we see the research we see the

science we see the evidence we know

these things will help but they’re all

the things people can’t do when they’re

depressed right

and and my gentle pushback was

friendly amendment these are things they

cannot initiate often when they’re

depressed but if they have someone to

partner with them to provide them that

spark of initiative that their left

frontal cortex is not giving

then they can do them so let’s take

exercise for example so what is the

antidepressant dose of exercise luckily

it’s very low

the the most robustly established

antidepressant what do i mean by

antidepressant as effective as the

average drug for the average patient

three times a week

i’ll say it again because it’s low 30

minutes of brisk aerobic walking three

times a week

that’s been tested in head-to-head

trials against zoloft sertraline

twice now at my alma mater duke

university

and found to be every bit as effective

in the short term more effective

at preventing recurrence

and it’s super low dose but

patients with depression usually have

trouble making themselves do it so what

do we do we partner with them we say you

know would you let us play the role of

your left frontal cortex would you let

us

schedule the exercise with you

or with your trainer would you let us

then give you a little prompt a little

tickler a little reminder what do you

call it tickler that’s fine i think that

works yeah

i don’t know i’m looking at the

millennial in the room

no

yeah i’m in between is there a cooler

i’m on the latter end of the millennial

spectrum right now i’ve got to have a

cooler word yeah i’m the

i don’t oh

i don’t have a cooler word than tickler

yeah

um so a little tickler

a half hour before the workout like hey

you know we just just took a little

reminder we you know we’re mrs jones you

know we’re going to be meeting in a half

hour

and it’s like oh now the trainer is

playing the role of the left frontal

cortex giving that signal that spark

that the depressed person is not getting

on their own so what do we find people

with depression can exercise people with

depression can enjoy exercise people

with depression can benefit enormously

but they cannot make themselves do it

usually

so we have to let go of the judgment we

have to let go of the nagging we have to

let go of the self-blame

and just be freaking realist about it

it’s like

let’s validate for people that are

suffering with depression it’s like yes

depression is taking you away from your

best self

it’s robbing you of capabilities that

you normally have

and there’s no judgment

but we’re going to partner with you

to help you do the things that you need

to do

to get well

because when you’re well you’ll be able

to initiate all the things again

hopefully yeah if you could before you

you got depressed then you’ll be able to

again yeah yeah absolutely and i think

that’s the that’s the that’s a special

sauce in the tlc model because you know

at peaks recovery certainly we have an

opportunity to front line with

medications and do what we can there and

i hope that the viewers watching this as

well too can hear all the things that

doctors are trying to roll through in

their heads as prescribers or even

mid-level providers as they go through

this because i mean that’s back to my

point about the dopamine medication it’s

like don’t we have these things you know

it was kind of rhetorical right we do

have these things but why don’t we throw

that at them you know in that sort of

way because it comes with all these

consequences a med and then a med to

manage the symptoms of the med and you

know potentially all of this you know

fallout

and then on the other side of that we

have psychotherapy you know but the med

is going to take time to ramp up and the

depressed patient is having difficulty

just sitting in that environment and it

feels like as the next sensible thing

and why this tlc model is so fascinating

uh is because now we can do so much more

with the time that we have them within

these residential settings and

differently than the challenges of your

you know your research studies where

they had to kind of go home come back

report that sort of thing and you’ve got

them yeah

and you can provide a level of support

and a level of for one of the better

word stress management sure that you

know is just going to be so

incredibly beneficial for many patients

and so with the integration i mean

when you talk about depression i just

keep having this

this idea of like paralysis right it’s

like almost like a neural paralysis

where things just are stuck like you

can’t

move in any way shape or form

neurologically to a certain degree and

then you have something you introduce

medication which gives you

neuroplasticity right so you’ve got some

room to maneuver at that point but then

that desire to

to actually make those changes and push

forward and push through that paralysis

requires almost like

neural like a neural partner right like

somebody to come and partner with you in

order to push you along and so then you

have these all of a sudden though you’ve

got all of the major components

especially in something like a

residential program where you can really

come at it from all these different

angles and like you said do all the

things right exactly right and then we

have iop right where we get to help them

make those habits lifelong habits and

and change the environment they’re in

and i think that’s what’s exciting about

this yes that’s a really important point

too right because we were talking about

this earlier but

so much of the if we if we zoom out to

landscape of mental health and treating

depression what we see

is it’s challenging to treat depression

in the short term

in the first couple months

but we have the tools if we’re willing

to do all the things we’ve got the tools

it’s like we’ve got this in the great

majority of cases

the bigger challenge is treating it in

the long term

very similar case i would say i think

you’d agree with substance use disorders

where absolutely you know the short-term

outcomes are better generally than the

long-term outcomes and yet we’re playing

the long game

we want our patients to thrive in the

long term and so that means now how can

we pivot from this very cocoon like can

i use that word this oasis like

environment of 45 days where i’m going

to be

really well cared for

but everything in my environment is

controlled and now i’ve got to pivot

back out to the real world my life as it

exists outside

how do i take all of these new tools and

skills and associations and generalize

them out to my life in the world and

that that is

i mean

it’s like you’re speaking my love

language now because because i mean i’m

so excited about this this 45-day

residential i mean

that’s miraculous that that exists

but then to be able to take that and

take it out into somebody’s you know

real world life is is so important

absolutely

yeah

um

yeah so well there are a lot of

different directions we can go yeah with

this yeah one of the one of the

challenges of integrated care and i

don’t know if uh if there’s you know a

tone you can put on it or give us some

insights or just a general conversation

but you go to integrate the care and

major depressive patient and sud patient

are sitting next to each other and say

i’m not like that person and i’m not

like that person and why are we in the

same room together and you’re treating

something different but it reminds you

know going back to that you know the the

dopamine you know uh reward circuits you

remember reward circuits in scenario

that’s the that’s the intersection

that’s the bridge well the two two

bridges one is profound suffering yeah

profound suffering

and you know i i don’t know if you all

find this but i find that when people

are suffering

a lot of the superfluous things in life

get stripped away and people get very

real

because it’s like you know i mean like i

worked for three months on a brain tumor

clinic

with patients that

for the most part had about a year to

live

and it was the most existentially

profound experience professionally of my

life because people just get so most

people not everyone but most people just

get very dialed in to what’s important

and what’s not

and i feel like a lot of sud patients

get that way

i mean they’ve been to the brink a lot

absolutely right they’ve been to the

brink

a lot of depressed patients have been

suicidal they’ve been to the brink some

of them made a town some of them made

serious attempts

and then you know now they’re at this

moment where they’re like i you know

i can’t take much more of this i need

some relief and they’re coming to you

and they’re desperate

and your sud patients are coming to you

and they’re desperate

so

they’re experiencing the suffering

and

they have

compromised reward circuits and you know

for those who want to take the deep dive

there’s a dopamine receptor subtype that

helps coordinate

activity in the these circuits are

called d2 receptors

and long story short

people with sud have low levels of d2

receptors so the reward circuits don’t

work correctly they don’t get high on

life but they get way way way too much

reward from substances of abuse

people with depression also low d2

receptors also wonky reward circuitry so

they’re kindred

yeah and by the way there’s a lot of

overlap because a lot of people with

depression self-medicate

and a lot of addicts become depressed

and a lot of those who are not addicts

but just sud you know abuse folks get

depressed so and i think both of those

worlds those uh people suffering from

either sud or depression feel isolated

they feel like they feel completely

disconnected and brilliant and again

yeah earlier in the day we talked about

the idea of you know the opposite of

addiction being connection and so the i

and we were talking about the opposite

of suffering is also connection yeah so

it’s interesting you get it’s this

ironic thing again where you have two

people sitting next to each other who

feel so far apart but they’re actually

so close together and one of the actual

things that would make them feel even

better was is to find that connection

with each other and to share that so

it’s just this kind of i i don’t know i

think that we we live in a world of

irony a lot of times in what we do

there’s so many levels of irony that we

are dealing with and it’s just really

interesting to hear them point it out

that way and uh sort of have a different

angle and a different lens to look at it

through that’s a great connection i love

that

yeah just this idea that whether

somebody’s sud or depressed

they’re experiencing the sense of

alienation absolutely the sense of

isolation and

often just profound disconnection yeah

often also i hadn’t thought about this

but profound

self-loathing

absolutely that’s literally a symptom of

depression

is self-deprecation self-loathing but so

common in sud as well because people

have made really bad decisions often and

they’re beating themselves up and

they’re seeing the fallout absolutely

and i think we as a you know peaks we’ve

really we we work really hard to try to

get rid of this idea of

uh substance use disorder and mental

health disorder being different they are

so the same you know they are so

intertwined it’s it’s again it goes it

goes back to suffering and it goes back

to this connection it goes back to

self-loathing it goes back to

this a sort of neural paralysis that you

exist in and and the treatment again is

uh is

there’s so much overlap and can be so

similar for both sides exactly and it’s

um

yeah so it’s just it’s great to hear i

don’t know some affirmation for that to

be quite honest yeah well i get really

excited about it and you know the other

thing i just want if it’s okay to circle

back to something you said earlier just

about

um okay so you’ve got 45 days if if

somebody’s coming residential if they’re

doing intensive outpatient it’s a little

bit different but

when somebody’s suffering they want

relief immediately

if we use a standard anti-depressant so

the typical treatment that the majority

of patients are going to get one

antidepressant standard off the shelf

garden variety anti-depressant they’re

told usually like two to six weeks

depending if you’re lucky two weeks if

you’re not so lucky maybe four to six

weeks four kicks in and we see anxiety

three weeks depression four weeks is

typical okay there you go yeah

you know and there are exceptions or you

know uh

so

what what are we at that’s faster

well you know there’s a lot of

excitement around

more i think of them maybe you all don’t

as a little bit more extreme

interventions um some folks obviously

have heard for decades about

electroshock that we now call

electroconvulsive therapy it’s faster

has re there are reasons why it’s not a

go-to intervention for most people but

it is faster

tms transcranial magnetic stimulation

is faster for some people the effects

are not as robust yet as i would like

them to be but there’s there’s still it

can be faster well guess what this is

where i get super excited

light therapy bright light therapy not

just for somebody who has winter onset

depression not just for somebody who has

seasonal depression or sad some people

have heard

for any depression

effects can kick in within five to seven

days

it’s fast acting

now i’ve got a nutritional intervention

that can kick in within seven days

acetyl l-carnitine

and acetyl-carnitine is like it’s a

nutrient

that

our bodies mostly have to i say a

nutrient it’s it’s a a nutrient that our

bodies make out of substrate that we get

from our diet how about that and the

more we age

the crappier our body isn’t making it so

if you look at people who are depressed

in their teens and 20s their levels of

acetyl-carnitine are usually sort of

okay they’re lower than we would want

them to be but they’re okay and and

what it means is if their levels are low

the powerhouse the mitochondria of their

brain cells are not as efficient and so

literally their brain is getting a bit

underpowered

and the circuits that they need

uh get fatigued more quickly

so they can’t fire as efficiently okay

so we can supplement with

acetyl-l-carnitine and the best research

is two thousand milligrams a day divided

dose so a thousand milligrams twice a

day

and not only in the best

meta-analysis studies of studies does

acetyl-l-carnitine

outperform placebo

with an effect size that’s roughly on

par with medication

has no common side effects

and effects kick in typically within

about a week

and were you saying that’s more

important with age more important with

the thank you right it’s yeah so for

those of us who are of a certain age

on the wrong side 40 how about the wrong

side of 40

yeah

there’s some really nice signal in the

in the research that says that

middle-aged and older depressed

individuals really respond right and

younger individuals are less likely to

have that i haven’t heard of that before

so yeah it’s a pretty cool little little

tidbit

and there are other things as well but i

guess my point is

that

even if we don’t want to go to something

as extreme as electro-convulsive therapy

to get that really fast effect because

we’re we’re all impatient we’re

americans

we’re not saying right of course we’re

impatient but people are suffering

people’s lives are hanging in the

balance of course we’re impatient

we don’t have to wait four weeks

we have things already in the toolkit

that can get this recovery going and get

it going pretty quickly

and i think a lot of people don’t

realize that can i give you one more

please okay

we did we did not rehearse this we don’t

script this i’m totally going off script

now ladies and gentlemen

and brandon is he bold

i’m open to it okay

martin luther said sin boldly so here we

go um

good intro

it’s a little reformation yeah the

viewers at home are like

come on sin boldly where is he taking

this

yeah

you you’ll edit that out yeah um

there is a

novel

integrative intervention

called

chronotherapy

have you heard of it i’m not familiar

okay it involves three things the first

of which is going to blow your mind yeah

you want to know how to get

an immediate antidepressant effect with

someone even if they’re severely

depressed it will warning disclaimer it

will only last for about 12 hours

keep the person up for 36 straight hours

i kid you not

acute sleep

deprivation 36 hours of continuous

wakefulness has a profound acute

antidepressant effect why do we not use

it aside from the obvious people don’t

like staying up 36 hours

because

as soon as the person goes to sleep when

they wake up the next day they’re right

back where they started there’s zero

enduring effect

but proof of concept

sleep deprivation strategically employed

antidepressant we can build on that

second

component

circadian

circuit reset

most people with depression have a body

clock that is out of sync with the

ambient world around them

the most common form of circadian phase

shifting

is the person’s body clock

thinks that it is a couple hours maybe

three hours later than it really is

so we say it’s phase advanced so they

wake up let’s say they’re wake time

what’s the wait time in the room here

six a.m is that yeah say six it’s great

okay yeah so their wake time is 6 a.m

but they’re wide awake at 3 a.m because

their body clock is telling them oh it’s

we call this by the way terminal

insomnia because it’s at the terminus of

their sleep cycle interesting okay

so we want to phase shift them

three hours

right and that will help a lot it will

help with their sleep which has

antidepressant therapeutic effects the

final thing is the use of bright light

therapy which we’ve talked about before

so you combine all three

there is a center for chronotherapy in

chicago

that’s a residential

facility

we really should talk about this is

pretty cool because you guys could do

this

um where they have

patients come in and they’re like okay

we’re going to combine these three

things

so we’re going to keep you up 36

straight hours

and then we’re going to

let you sleep for a while

actually it’ll be more than 36 or eight

hours it’ll be we’re basically going to

shift their body clock about four hours

every day

until we’ve run all the way through

the the clock if you think if you do the

math in your head it’s like five or six

days

and we’re going to hit them with a

massive dose of therapeutic bright light

as soon as they wake up

to give a signal of circadian reset to

be like okay hey you know what

um it’s now 8 am but your brain thinks

it’s noon hey it’s now noon or 8 am but

your brain thinks it’s four in the

afternoon and then the next day eight

in the evening and after a week you’ve

run the entire cycle your back around

where you started

and you can get them entrained

perfectly to the world around them you

get the acute benefit of sleep

deprivation it doesn’t go away because

you’re continually keeping the brain off

balance and you have the antidepressant

effect of the bright light

and you can now connect with people

because they’re up at the same time

exactly yeah and at the center for

chronotherapy in chicago

they um you know they try to use the

milieu of it right so they have like

activities for folks when it’s four in

the morning and they’re all up and they

and they shine pretty bright light out

in the patient day room where they’re

all hanging out

so it’s a it’s a but it’s a very fast

acting

very powerful oh by the way it’s been

used in bipolar depression

and patients with bipolar are

exquisitely sensitive to light

exquisitely sensitive to changes in

circadian rhythm exquisitely sensitive

to sleep deprivation

and

it has a roughly 50 percent acute

response rate in bipolar depression in a

week

which is

far higher

than any in a week any current

therapeutic medication that we have for

bipolar depression

so there’s some all kinds of really cool

exciting potentials i would say

and not to veer off script here but uh

on the manic side of bipolar disorder

wasn’t there a light benefit or an

anti-light benefit yeah because yeah

thank you so bipolar patients i don’t

know if you guys have ever experimented

with this but bipolar patients

exquisitely sensitive to light

and very sensitive to um

time change

you know going on and off of daylight

savings time can often be a trigger for

depression or mania

but it’s recently been discovered that

when a patient with bipolar is manic

or

mixed where there’s sort of

simultaneously manic and some depressive

symptoms

if you use polarized wraparound goggles

or lenses polarized in the sense that

they’re that deep amber

okay kind of like if folks know the rock

star bono of youtube

he has glaucoma

and has to filter out that light for

medical reasons for it’s the same basic

principle

um

patients with mania who filter out

probably most people know about blocking

blue light like at night it’s blue light

is very stimulating

patients with mania where they block out

blue light 24 7 and then stay out of

direct sunlight

it has enormous potential to break a

manic episode

and can be used in tandem with

anti-manic medication

to potentiate the effect to quicken the

effect to speed it up to make it more

robust

and in some cases i’m not recommending

this at all but in some cases it’s been

used without medication for patients

as you probably know sometimes when

patients are manic they they do

everything against medical advice

because they have impaired judgment

and they will not take them in

but sometimes they will agree to wear

the cool bono glasses

right sounds like a fantastic

alternative

um

so i feel like we’re just scratching the

tip of the iceberg

on leveraging

the neurological power

of lifestyle based intervention

these things are like drugs and their

effects on the brain

absolutely yeah

powerful stuff so dr ryan yeah you got

the challenging job we got to keep him

up for 36 hours

you get hazardous duty pay for that

right

i love the idea i think we need a little

more robust nursing staff

you’d have to definitely make some new

hires for sure

no but i’m curious dr reddit i mean

there’s somebody who you know you live

in the trenches with this right i’ve

seen i and i’ve

you know being in rounds with you and um

with working with the clinical team the

medical team even our residential team

and and seeing people struggle and

really trying to get a hold on what is

going to be the best approach to help

stabilize them to help keep them engaged

to help

i mean we’re not even at symptom

reduction yet at that point right but uh

but listening to this and listening to

this sort of approach and which does

feel integrative it actually has a

genuinely holistic feel to it i’m just

curious what your response is

i love it um i mean i think it has the

potential

now to fix them while they’re with us

but more importantly to set them up for

success in the future um

when he spoke

earlier today steve you talked about a

spider web

yeah

do you want to yeah go ahead and talk

about this

[Laughter]

he talked about depression be having a

lot of different attachments and

basically every every

thing you can pull off so a medication

you’re pulling off a big string you’re

pulling off another string with light

therapy with exercise with connectedness

with nutrition what am i missing

uh habits of healthy sleep habits of

healthy sleep i mean you’re just pulling

more off of that

brain axis and yeah

and i think the more we more of those

strings we can pull off

the better people are going to do i love

the analogy i think it’s great for thank

you yeah

yeah metaphor metaphor analogy

yes yes

so

yeah i i mean i a patient

actually actually

many years ago said to me you know i

just feel like i’m caught in this web

um and it always stayed with me that

that image of like being trapped in this

web and then when i started thinking

about how depression involves all these

different layers of dysregulation

molecular

neurochemical

hormonal

cognitive affective potential and we

haven’t even talked about like the

attentional biases people when they’re

depressed

the brain only wants to go to negative

things people when they’re depressed

they they don’t want to be around other

people so there’s the social withdrawal

piece there’s the i mean there’s so many

different layers and it’s like this web

and our typical approach like we talked

about earlier is monotherapy we’re going

to do the one thing we’re looking for

the one magic

stone that we can throw at the web and

bring the whole thing down

and sometimes we get lucky sometimes we

get lucky and the one thing really does

bring it down for some people some for

some time

but god it just makes so much more sense

to think about like what if i have a

whole pocket full of stones or you know

like a shotgun or something where i can

just blast this thing

and i feel like

how about this

depression is so much more treacherous

than we give it credit for being it’s so

much harder to fix it is fixable

it’s completely fixable but it’s so much

harder to to get it well and keep

somebody well

and we do our patients a grave

disservice by

being very cavalier and very oh yeah

yeah we got this our these meds are like

magic these it’s like the meds you know

they’re helpful but they’re not all that

for so many patients but if we’re

willing to really take it seriously like

you all do at peaks that’s what i get

really excited about yeah i’m going to

send you so many patients yeah

[Laughter]

love it also would love to figure out a

you know path forward to you know we

have a setting in which

you know it’s a little bit different

than the ambulatory stylus setting in

which we could approach you know maybe a

project of research or something around

it to really ignite this and

locate its value proposition because

this is exciting stuff and

i don’t want to insist that we’re the

only treatment center thinking of this

in america but

i think our industry is sort of missing

this opportunity to really

bring in all of these things at the same

time but to do that we have to

responsibly think about integration of

care we cannot just talk about drugs in

these settings that’s a really visionary

a rich genuinely visionary sort of

approach because i mean here’s what i’m

thinking and maybe

you all tell me if i’m too naive about

this because you know the biz way better

than i do

my feeling is

if you could get

some sort of

funding sponsorship

to pay for the research to

like legitimately show with a carefully

controlled conducted research study

that this kind of multi-pronged

approach this

doing all the things approach

is highly effective

now you’ve got this

publication that you can

take to all the industry people all the

leaders all the you know and say

don’t just take our word for it like we

you know

we have

independent verification that what we’re

doing is working

and we’d like we’d like to make this the

gold standard yeah but to do it right

it’s going to take some money

some money some time a lot of time

to get it right why did you point to me

because

when i when i hear all the things i

think that is your

you are mr all the things that yes wait

doctor

he’s director of all things

chief of all things at peace recovery

centers there

there’s so much to expand on to talk

about to be excited about on this i do

you know while we got the the sort of

the medi the met the strict medical lens

here before we invite the the clinical

side of things into this you know the

anti-ruminating you know uh

psychotherapy psychotherapy approaches

and so forth into this i i did want to

touch base you know chris burns one of

the host president founder of peace

recovery centers is often talking about

the vulnerable population

and what i what i would like to talk

about is that you know it really uh

struck me as kind of obvious for myself

when you were talking about it earlier

with our team but

you know i wake up in the morning and i

get the sunshine i think this is a

beautiful day look at this mountain

that’s in front of me pike’s peak

america’s mountain man so beautiful you

know we live among nature we get to see

deer running across the highway we get

it all here in you know colorado uh in

that regard and so

you know you get this high on life sort

of experience when your dopamine levels

are up and that’s my common experience

and why it resonates with me so much

with those lower dopamine levels that’s

the vulnerable person we’re talking

about right because they’re taking the

drug and they take it and all of a

sudden it’s the mountain they’re high on

life this is what this guy brandon was

experiencing when he was talking to me

about looking at the mountain that i

don’t experience

yeah exactly right so that’s that’s

that’s one of the real

under

appreciated and i think misunderstood

elements of the

the brain of the person vulnerable to

addiction vulnerable to substance use

disorder is

they’re very often genetically

predisposed to those low d2 receptor

levels so in other words genetically

predisposed to not

be able

as much to get high in life

and to have the drug be able to hack

into their reward circuits the drug

takes over and says

this is what you’ve been missing yeah

this is now your home

now you’re in a space where you feel on

top of the world

by the way fun side note psilocybin

actually does not light up the brain’s

reward circuit or lsd or any of those

it really does i didn’t get that message

when i was doing it

it could be i mean obviously it could be

really

yeah i mean depending on your own

experience it certainly can have a

reward component by the way

a lot of

folks probably know psilocybin is now

being actively investigated

as a

supercharging agent for effective

psychotherapy for depression

so

you know it increases plasticity it

opens people up to reconceptualizing

their stuckness

and under expert therapeutic guidance it

can be a

catalyst

for a lot of healing for a lot of you

know sort of rapid response so i think

it’s been a little bit overhyped

oversold but i’m not in any way opposed

to that kind of research and work i just

want to

basically i’m just giving like a public

service announcement for magic mushrooms

they are being actively investigated at

some of the leading research centers in

the world as a

legitimate psychiatric

agent

but they don’t they’re not a drug of

addiction typically yeah um but yeah

like alcohol how about i mean there’s a

very common drug of addiction

um

you know

can i say this we were out to dinner

last night there may have been a glass

or two of alcohol consumed

um in a very responsible manner and

um

a little bit of dopaminergic reward

which you know all drugs of addiction do

but if somebody has high d2 receptor

levels they just walk away they’re just

like oh yeah that was fine whatever

um

and so i feel like once we start viewing

addiction through this lens of these are

our

brothers and sisters our fellow

travelers

who are laboring right now with the

burden of reward circuits that don’t get

lit up the way they’re supposed to

when they hug a friend when they see the

beauty of nature when they have an uh a

professional accomplishment when they

have sex when they do anything

except for using and when they’re using

then it lights everything up and that’s

a tragedy and you know it’s like if we

can have that viewpoint for me at least

i’ll just speak to myself judgment melts

away

and compassion

seems to be the only sane response

yeah you know um so yeah i just i

i love the work you’re doing um i i love

i love the compassion i love the sanity

i love the

you know the community absolutely um

yeah

so

well i think that’s beautiful and

exactly what we’re you know what we’re

coming to here when we apprecia we can

all appreciate that decisions are being

made around alcohol use drug use and so

forth

but at the level of decision making

they

those who suffer from addiction

don’t know

that that is the underlying thing within

their being right that’s going to get

ignited and that experience is going to

happen making them most vulnerable or

susceptible to

gosh i want to do that one more time

just to because that felt really right

in that moment in displaced this moral

personal responsibility conundrum thing

we find ourselves stuck and i think as a

society to say well they chose right we

all choose but we’re all kind of

vulnerable and susceptible in different

ways within those choices and that

displaces personal responsibility uh

in a much different way than i

experience personal responsibility and

they’re just like i think that choice

narrative is actually true for people

who struggle with depression as well

because we’re so cavalier with what we

identify as depression

there is this idea well then just stop

being depressed you know like go do

stuff oh my god yourself feel better

just snap out of it just absolutely do

the things that you it’s like stop doing

the drugs snap out of the get stop being

so sad all the time you know watch a

funny movie that it’s it’s all of these

very like simplistic very misinformed

kind of perceptions that we have that

are ingrained culturally and have turned

what are really debilitating illnesses

into taboos absolutely and one of the

really interesting things that happens

when somebody’s recovering from

addiction

is it takes a while and by a while i

mean like three to 12 months

for their reward circuits to start

getting

normal again near normal

near normal yeah more normal

normal enough to be

to get them past the craving and you

know

um

once they can push through with massive

support

and compassion and acceptance

to get to a place of sustained recovery

their d2 receptors start to normalize

their reward circuit starts they start

to regain the ability to get high on

life

why

because substance use actually changes

the brain and pushes those d2 receptors

down

substance use actually makes the reward

circuits more blunted

and

sobriety

extended through time

allows the reward circuits to normalize

and heal experience changes the brain

and that’s a profound sort of thought

yes we may be born genetically more

vulnerable less vulnerable but guess

what

i’ve known lots of people who were born

genetically not vulnerable to addiction

never had a problem until they were

prescribed

an opiate

prescribed a benzodiazepine like xanax

by the way benzodiazepines the number

one most prescribed class of psychiatric

meds in the u.s

party drugs

possibly

what could possibly go wrong

zany

yeah it’s our most prescribed that’s

crazy um so anyway i’m not here to bash

well a little bit yeah

and so easy to find in the black market

as well too of course it’s everywhere

but here’s my point yeah

i have known people who were as far as i

know the only person in their very vast

extended genetic circle that had an

addiction they were addicted to benzos

why because they’re

typically family practice stock 90 of no

offense 90 of benzos are prescribed by

general practice

dogs not psychiatrists psychiatrists

usually see the danger usually not

always

the best the best family practice not

always the best family practice doctor

see the danger but a lot don’t right

okay

so they’re prescribed the benzo

as a sleep aid yeah but they take it

every night yeah after getting their

ritalin and adderall yeah right yeah so

but but then after a couple years now

they are completely addicted

they did not start off with an addictive

vulnerability we created the addictive

vulnerability but now that they’re

addicted their d2 receptor levels are

low even though they were born with a

nice high genetic level you see it so

regardless of whether if you’re born

with a low level

well guess what getting connected with

people being immersed in community

exercising regularly

having better nutrition getting good

sleep all those things actually raise

your d2 receptor levels make you less

vulnerable and so people get out of our

detox they’re like why do i still feel

crappy

and then

you have to be honest it’s going to take

a year before you start feeling near

normal yeah in two years before you’re

fairly normal yeah and well dr ryan

every addiction treatment center website

says we can fix this we can support this

and i think that to your point and the

reason i’m highlighting that because i’m

vulnerable to it you know we want to be

in a position to help people and our

website says something similar i think

we want to have more transparent honest

discussions about what this is going to

take from mental health primary to sud

primary you know a dual diagnosis of you

know maybe both categories uh in that

regard that we’re dealing with something

quite complex and it’s not taboo we

don’t shake it and it goes away we don’t

say stop thinking it and it goes away

you know or just throw these monotherapy

approaches at it it goes away we’ve

learned in real time the ineffective

nature of all of these approaches and

it’s time to

get real and honest about that support

the public to recognize that yes these

things are valuable but it’s not a

single shot and we need to work toward

all of these things in support of that

and

i know

to the to be charitable to our industry

insurance is running a lot of this you

know you know through you know tms

clinic and so forth like that front-end

medication we have to see the failure

first before we can intervene with other

things at the level of insurance

that’s nonsense it perpetuates the issue

in a way as well too so not only is the

situation complex for major depressive

disorder sud and so forth it’s complex

from the downward pressure we experience

as a society for how these things are

paid for delivered in real time

that tangent i suppose for another day

but just wanted to

highlight that from what you were

stating yeah i mean i i think

if you need help come to peaks i think

we do cutting edge medications i think

we have top-notch curriculum top-notch

therapists and we’re going to start

integrating more holistic

effects that are going to set people up

for the future i think that’s

that’s the next step for us

and and yeah and i love the fact that

there’s a kind of an interesting dance

between i mean

one of your core values is

like unvarnished honesty you’ve never

told me that but i can see it right i

mean

it’s just being really genuine and

honest

but at the same time there’s a wisdom

component to

like

there are helpful truths and there’s a

timing to it and i so here’s just my my

take on this and i’ll

throw it out there and maybe this is a

horrible idea but

i feel like when somebody is just

starting down the path of recovery

from addiction

it’s too much to give them the truth of

like it could be two years

brother it could be two years before

it’s like

okay you know what

this drug is

literally ruining your life and you know

it and that’s why you’re here

um and we are here for you we’ve got

your back we’re going to partner with

you and we’ll get you through the

toughest stretch of it and we’re going

to give you all kinds of tools all kinds

of support

and

every day

you’re going to get one step closer to

this goal and

we’re not going gonna lie and say it’s

an easy road but it’s a valuable road

and it’s so worth doing and you know

millions of people have discovered that

they’ve it’s like that path has been

blazed that trail has been blazed we

know it

but you know what i mean so like

absolutely to celebrate the small wins

to celebrate like every day is a win

every day of sobriety every day of you

know is a win

and yeah at the end of 45 days okay

we’re gonna be honest like this this was

the first phase of your journey

but if you quit now

your odds of staying well you know

without doing phase two

not great

yeah absolutely i think it’s i think the

idea that being a journey is exactly

what it is and it’s it’s a journey of

discovery it’s a journey of healing it’s

a journey of repair yes uh

psychologically and and physiologically

and being able to like you said

celebrate the

entire spectrum of what recovery is

whether it’s recovery from substance use

or recovery within mental health

without suffering from mental health

diagnoses it’s it’s a journey every

recovered addict that i’ve known

personally

has told me that early on that journey

they had to wholeheartedly embrace the

wisdom of just think about today

absolutely can you get through and if

you if that’s too big

can you get through the next hour right

and we’re here for you and we got you

and you know we’re going to get you

through this it’s like

we face these moments of incredible

weakness and temptation but it’s like i

can power through the next hour or the

this day

and if that person who’s feeling

depleted and overwhelmed has to think

about

oh my god it’s a two-year journey to get

you know it’s just it’s too much truth i

don’t even think about that it’s too

much truth for them right right

totally yeah

there’s got to be hope right there’s got

to be some next thing so maybe we don’t

think about it i think family systems

should appreciate this is going to have

a major time component to it but we

celebrate the

successful interventions along the way

we celebrate every win yeah absolutely

and and we don’t burden

people with the we see it’s like you

know with kids it’s like you don’t

burden your kids with

there’s certain knowledge that like

they’ll be ready for it someday but like

right now they don’t

need to grapple with the problem of evil

right why are there psychopaths that

torment people and it’s like you know

what honey we’ll get there someday

you know though i will say i think

there’s a time where it it does benefit

people to know that to know that yes it

my brain will get back to normal because

because they have this fear that it’s

never going to get better absolutely and

it will yeah

and they yeah

yeah absolutely

well on that note um i suppose as the

host i gotta i gotta cut it at some

point the social media the kids they can

only watch clips in

you know 30 seconds five minutes out of

times i’m sure somebody’s popping

popcorn in the background right now you

know we’re gonna come back to it i think

there’s still no wait there’s yeah no go

ahead so

i was going to say there’s a drinking

game but this is the wrong audience

so hard cut off there

we’ll take it out of there

i cannot believe it the old clinical

psychology

i’m with college undergrads absolutely

all right totally different settings

no worries no worries and an

appreciation of

um

[Music]

you

uh dr elardi being on this with us thank

you so much dr ryan for joining us as

well too clint nicholson

all things peaks recovery centers to the

viewers out there i certainly hope this

was supportive helpful to your family

systems

the knowledge download that’s taking

place and hopefully creating some

curiosity for you and your loved one

about how you can approach

treatment options down the road check

out dr steven elardy’s book the

depression cure amazon all the

bookstores it’s a great read on the next

episode we’re going to talk about the

shtick the thing that

is the the thread that makes all of this

true at the end of the day

we’ll talk about it we’ll challenge it

we’ll do all those things uh remember if

you’ve got uh additional questions

thoughts ideas finding peaks at

peaksrecovery.com

we’ll put it in there and that box there

we got some talent in the back that’ll

be able to do that for me uh chris burns

on the tick tock screaming at it love it

keep watching it

highlighting that on behalf of peaks

recovery centers uh the twitter the

facebooks all the other things until

next time everyone wait wait wait

shout out to uh

i have a a podcast yeah yeah do it yeah

can i do it yeah absolutely

camera three yeah

mental health with steve allardy and

hugh james it uh so it’s a he’s hugh is

an irish poet

who is hilarious unlike me

and it’s it’s we’re the perfect odd

couple he’s young i’m old uh he’s the

poet i’m the scientist he’s irish i’m a

mayor i mean it’s anyway

we tackle really really deep dark tough

mental health mental illness issues

with a kind of a light touch

and yet at the same time really honoring

uh the experience of those that are

suffering different forms of mental

illness so um look for it if you’re in

the podcast we also are doing a youtube

thing so um very cool you had me at

irish poet so

[Laughter]

okay love it and thank you and please

watch it absolutely listen to it get

involved with it this is a big topic an

excellent

uh professional and individual guiding

us through those things as well too so

until next time everybody thank you

empathy is knowing your own darkness

without that connection you don’t have

anything what’s the opposite of

addiction just freedom

hello everyone

welcome to

another special episode of finding peaks

this is a special episode we got a

special guest with us today and i’m

excited

to be a part of this group dynamic uh

today and we’re gonna also have an

additional episode uh coming soon as

well too or thereafter however it works

out in the time frame of things but

again welcome my name is brandon burns

chief executive officer for peaks

recovery centers you all know me your

favorite host trying to disrupt an

industry provide quality of care vision

insights for family systems

seeking treatment so that we can empower

you all to make best possible decisions

for your loved one for yourself and so

forth joined today as always by the

great clinton nicholson chief operating

officer great lpclic

all things clinical

to join us today the heavy-hitting dr

ryan md board-certified addictionologist

with us today uh at peaks recovery

centers and then our

what’s that chief medical officer i am

so sorry chief medical officer wow that

wouldn’t make any sense

we’ll rewind the tape we’ll fix it

special guest today dr stephen elardy

clinical psychologist researcher

professor university of kansas and

author of the depression cure the book

and joining us here today to talk about

depression major depressive disorders

all of its variations some anxiety maybe

we’ll tackle some sud along the way

welcome

hey thank you so much for having me it’s

a pleasure to be here um

i i’m in such a gas company i didn’t

realize the great yeah the great the

chief medical officer yeah

favorite podcast host or whatever you

know it’s like

i this is like some pretty pretty high

cotton that is pretty impressive i i so

i’m honored to be yeah trying to give

you some highlights too because you run

your own podcast as well too you know

that’s a new thing okay it’s it’s i

dabble i don’t know maybe some folks out

there could identify with this i get

bored really easily

so like you know i’ve done nba

consulting i’ve

i’ve written blogs for espn i’ve

done a podcast now youtube channel

um

you know it it this is new train for me

though so being on camera it’s like

not nervous at all

well now you know you can come on and

say you were the greatest host and mean

it when you say it and just really give

yourself all the credit i’m taking notes

they’re the mental notes right now but

yeah absolutely absolutely the viewers

at home are like yeah i think he is the

best host

that’s gonna be in my bag

so yeah thank you for being here excited

about this group and this bunch that we

have to really talk about

major depressive disorder

the symptomology of it and so forth and

the potential for the cure for it and

the remission of symptoms and so forth

and

as the viewers know we’ve done some

episodes with you know for example uh dr

ashley johnson a do psychiatrist with

colorado recovery services

here in town doing tms services and a

lot of great psychiatric work and what

the reason for highlighting that is

because in those episodes we talked

about medication um the benefits of it

also its limitations and the excitement

around new opportunities like tms and

sitting here with uh you know dr o’lardy

and certainly uh dr ryan johnson here we

want to uh i think reintroduce that as a

topic and highlight it through a

different lens

and have a really good conversation

about it the pros of it the cons of it

uh in that regard and a little bit more

of a backdrop and we were talking about

this earlier as well too you know when

you go to each and every single

addiction treatment center’s website it

says we treat dual diagnosis we can

treat this thing called major depressive

disorder

and generally out of that i think it’s

something like here’s depression and six

months ago you know the pot smoking was

taking place or the drug use and so

forth and somehow our industry keeps

trying to make it about this thing over

here and i think what that’s led to from

an industry standard is uh limitations

about how we treat major depression

major depression so certainly here at

peaks we’re trying to you know work

alongside you know individuals like you

to really advance new insights education

and

ultimately see

as an outcome a reduction in symptoms

around major depressive disorder and do

more than just med management certainly

meds are important but you have a

great deal of analogies and insights

into this so i’m just going to let you

fire away and then we’re just going to

wrap around and talk about it with you

okay well thanks yeah so the first thing

i want to say is somebody earlier this

morning when i was getting to know the

staff at peaks

mentioned you know the common thread

that runs through

everything that takes place at peaks

is you’re dealing first and foremost

with human suffering

whether or not somebody is battling

clinical depression whether they’re

battling a substance use disorder

whether they’re battling

associated anxiety or any of the other

so-called dual diagnoses

they’re suffering

and there’s a through line that really

connects substance use disorders and

depression and that is reduced

activity in the brain’s reward circuits

and probably a lot of the audience have

heard of brain chemical dopamine which

is the go-to signaling molecule in those

reward circuits

when we’re depressed

there’s a syndrome that goes along with

it our fancy we got a fancy word you

ready you know it the audience may not

and had anhedonia from the latin

no hedonic no no pleasure right

um

the dopamine-based reward circuits in

clinical depression don’t fire so the

person now doesn’t enjoy their normal

activities the way they used to they

don’t have sex drive anymore they don’t

enjoy food anymore

and

the person who is battling substance use

disorder

when they stop using what we typically

find is their dopamine reward circuits

are very blunted

they they’ve been kind of kicked into

artificially high modes of activity with

whatever they were using

and now they’re

in this state maybe they’ve gotten

through withdrawal

but they’re they’re in recovery and they

often have a lot of craving

and the reward circuits are throbbing in

anticipation like

what is out there for me

and they’re going through day-to-day

life often feeling like things are kind

of

blunted things are kind of dim and pale

and life doesn’t have the vivid colors

well guess what that’s exactly what my

depressed patients say

and we see the same kinds of underlying

neurological deficits in both and what

is exciting to me

is

many of the same strategies that can

help

with that suffering and loss of pleasure

and depression can also help in

addiction so to bring it back around

full circle

what about the role of medication what

about their old drugs well it sounds

kind of ironic and i don’t know if you

want to go down this rabbit hole but the

idea of using drugs to treat substance

use disorder strikes some people as

counterintuitive

right yeah

and yet there’s a really compelling

rationale for it in all kinds of ways

and we can talk about that in a bit but

one of the things the drugs can do

is to help those reward circuits that

have been kind of fried

in the grip of addiction in the grip of

substance use disorder to help them

normalize more quickly so the person can

enjoy the things respond to the rewards

that we’re supposed to

rather than this artificial sort of

reward

well when it comes to depression

you hear a lot about serotonin

you don’t hear nearly as much about

dopamine but dopamine function is

crucial

in depression well why do we hear so

much more about serotonin because most

of the depression drugs target serotonin

why are the depression drugs not

as effective as we wish they were i mean

they certainly help a lot of people

don’t get me wrong millions of lives

have been improved

but they’re not the game changers for

many people that we need them to be that

we want them to be why not in part

because when you give a drug like our

ssris or sssnris to ramp up serotonin

signaling very often you’re

simultaneously pushing down on the

dopamine system that’s why we have

sexual side effects it’s one of the

most common side effects right you’re

pushing down on the on the reward

circuitry well that’s not really what we

want

in depression so we need to augment that

effect with other things and you know

because we’ve talked about it a lot

that i’m a big big proponent of the idea

that there is no magic bullet in

depression there’s no single thing

fancy word monotherapy there’s no

monotherapy approach there’s no magic

drug that’s going to completely cure

forever a person’s depression most of

the time there are you know rare

exceptions but

um the drugs have a place they have a

role but we have to augment it we have

to do all the things we can’t just rely

on the one thing we can’t rely on the

monotherapy

so that’s that’s just the first premise

i wanted to put out there

i know there are a lot of different so

i’m curious now too you know and um

certainly we’re presenting to the team

earlier which is so grateful for it was

so uh informed on educational but why

why how are we in a situation which i

mean maybe it’s just speaking science or

we just don’t have the application for

it yet but why don’t we have drugs that

do the dopamine thing rather than the

serotonin we do okay so the one that

probably a lot of the audience have

heard of is is the generic is bupropion

the the trade name is either depending

on whether you’re taking it for smoking

cessation or depression the trade name

is wellbutrin for depression or or zyban

for smoking cessation same drug

um

and

the problem is that depression is often

and by often i mean over half the time

accompanied by a lot of anxiety

and if you give a drug like wellbutrin

it’s like oh okay so we’re going to ramp

up dopamine that’s good we’re going to

ramp up rewards signaling that’s good

occasionally a patient will even have

spontaneous orgasm

on wealthy trend okay um side effects of

podcast

we will circle back around

there was a grey’s anatomy episode by

the way for interesting yeah um

so

it’s no joke it can ramp up reward

signaling

but it can also ramp up anxiety okay

because the circuits are kind of

cross-wired a little bit which it’s a

long story we don’t have to go into but

so um well what else can we use well

stimulants

right adhd meds like um like adderall

like methylphenidate ritalin like

vivants all these drugs also ramp up

dopamine can they be helpful in

depression yes

absolutely

are they commonly used no why because

well they’re controlled substances a

have a high addiction potential or at

least moderate addiction potential be

but c they also ramp up anxiety

and so a lot of prescribers are very

loath to use them even though we’ve got

these dopamine deficits

in depression

that if anything a lot of times the

medications that we’re throwing at

depression can make worse

so then it’s like all right well what

can we do that’s non-pharmacological to

ramp up dopamine

and it turns out thank god there are

lots of things like physical activity

like

ambient sunlight exposure which is about

and light is a drug literally photons of

light are drugs

that hit specialized receptors in the

back of the eye in the retina that have

a broadband connection

to the center of the brain the

hypothalamus

and they

not only

renormalize our body clock which gets

out of sync and depression

not only regulate our sleep regulate our

hormones but kick up dopamine signaling

so we’ve probably all had this

experience when we go out on a bright

sunny day like we happen to be enjoying

today

if we go on a long hike or something

regardless of the activity level we feel

energized we feel stimulated and often

we have better focus because of that

sort of stimulant-like effect

when people are depressed though what do

they do they they don’t go outside they

crawl into a cave their brain is giving

them a signal to shut down pull away

withdrawal

and

part of

effective clinical work with depressed

populations is validating for them like

look

your brain is telling you that you’re

sick your brain is telling you just like

when you have the flu

get away from everybody crawl into a

cave lick your wounds

rest tight for a couple weeks till you

heal

and when you have the flu that’s great

listen to the brain when you have

depression that’s the last thing in the

world you want to do because that’s

going to make it worse

and so a lot of

the threading the needle with depressed

patients is validating yes of course you

feel like shutting down yes of course

you don’t want to be around other people

yes of course you have no energy and you

have no initiative and you’re suffering

and you’re hurting

but we have to partner together to help

you not listen to these signals from

your brain that are actually broken

signals right now

and if we can

if we can pull off that particular

clinical trick then we’re actually

ramping up dopamine signaling and that’s

the part that i think so many people

don’t get they’re like well wait a

minute if you have a brain chemistry

problem the only possible way to fix it

is to throw drugs at it or to you know

put some powerful magnets on the brain

and call it tms or you know do

electroshock there if you’re something

very somatic

but what we know from the realm of

neuroscience the realm that i’m trained

in is experience changes the brain

and

activity changes the brain and the food

we eat changes the brain and our ambient

light exposure changes the brain so all

the things

we think of as like oh my grandma could

have told me

to go get some fresh air my grandma

could have told me oh go get some oh be

active

but grandma didn’t know that this is

like powerful powerful psychoactive sort

of intervention

yeah so what i’m hearing though is that

at least one of the primary barriers is

that all of the things that you need or

at least

a good um

a good chunk of the things that you need

to get better or at least to start to

overcome depression are things that your

brain are telling you to not engage in

exactly right and that’s part of the

tragedy right of depression absolutely

and you know just to build on that a

little bit so imagine i’m depressed

and my doctor gives me an antidepressant

let’s say

um lexapro sure it’s one that a lot of

people have heard of acetal frame

and

um

one of the things it’s doing

is it’s eventually going to kick up

activity in my serotonin circuits what

does that do well

it’s going to help put the brakes

a bit on my stress response circuits

which is good because they tend to be

way too active in depression

but they’re also going to do this really

cool magical thing called

neuroplasticity they’re going to

increase the brain’s ability

to make new connections and new

associations and by the way that ability

is really compromised in the presence so

when people are depressed they cannot

easily learn new things they can’t

easily acquire new

associations and new parts of their

repertoire they’re kind of

closed sure and so you give them a drug

like lexapro is like oh this is amazing

this is going to kick up

the brain’s growth hormone it’s called

bdnf if folks want to look it up and now

they’re going to have greater

neuroplasticity here’s the problem

most patients with depression who get

treatment all they get is the drug and

it’s like here take this drug

and good luck with that go back to your

life

and well in a lot of cases their life

has some toxic elements to it so we’re

sending them to an environment that’s

negative

or at least that has some prominent

negative features sometimes by the way

is a side effect of the depression

because when we’re depressed we’re not

at our best and we can actually have a

sort of corrosive effect on some

relationships because we’ve been shut

down because we’ve been withdrawing and

we’ve been ghosting people and we’ve

been not responding to them

and now we give them the drug okay great

i got more plasticity but i’m going back

to a life that has a lot of negative

elements and now i’m

making those associations so it’s like

oh

the drug is making me more responsive to

my environment and i’ve done nothing to

fix my environment

yeah

hey

maybe that’s a reason why these drugs

are not more effective than they

actually turn out to be maybe these

drugs have the potential to be a lot

more effective

if we could attend to the

neuroplasticity angle and provide a

supportive context so provide

a beautifully healing support of milieu

yeah this sounds like an ad i love it

and i’m thinking about going you know

for the for the viewers out there that

can’t see you know your slides in your

presentation right i’m thinking of the

pie chart right where 76 roughly 76 77

of the time they’re just getting that

you know mono therapeutic approach

through medications most patients with

depression if they get treatment all

they’re getting is meds all they’re

getting is meds that is wild

when it’s such a complex issue as we’ll

get into certainly here around your web

analogy and so forth and then i think

out of that as well too it’s somewhere

you know 4.8 to 5.6 percent somewhere

and they’re just received psychotherapy

alone

and then 18 roughly of the popular

population receives both psychotherapy

and medication as a management

at the same time in lieu of that pie

chart and that incredible data right we

have more depression anxiety and so

forth than ever before

and then we have these medications and

no wonder we’re arriving at sort of a

frustration here in american culture

there’s such

a belief in

the med only a sort of approach yet it’s

not really resolving the problem and

it’s kind of like you know for me i i

just i want to shake the tree of

american culture and say let’s wake up

to this and let’s put

all these other benefits like you were

talking about the light and all of these

natural things and also how through

psychotherapy maybe it’s a residential

program maybe it’s ambulatory you know

uh you were saying something uh

wonderful earlier as well too like how

can we be you know the frontal lobe how

can we be the how can we do that for you

as you get well in the process yeah

should we unpack that a little bit yes

please so

so

i

that’s like page 9 15 100. it’s all over

the book so

yeah please unpack it okay so

um

depression hits so many different

circuits in the brain and takes them

offline or or just compromises them so

they don’t work as well and one of the

most important to me

is this set of circuits in the frontal

cortex and they lateralize to the left

so it’s really cool people are always

fascinated by left brain right brain and

a lot of the popular ideas about what

that is are are off-base but

one of them to put it gently but one of

the ways that lateralization matters is

the left frontal cortex has circuits

that help us go after the things that we

want and initiate

sort of pull the trigger if i can you

can i use that metaphor yes i’m in

colorado with that yeah

pull the trigger on

our

um the things we want to do so if i’m

sitting on the couch i am sitting you

know if i’m sitting on a couch and i’m

like oh i should get up

and i should get out it would help me to

get up and go for a brisk walk outside

maybe walk the dog whatever

um if i’m depressed

my left frontal cortex takes that

impulse

and it’s like

flatline like oh i should do that i got

nothing

it’s like i’ve fallen and i can’t get up

it’s like i’m sitting and i can i and

and what our depressed patients tell us

all the time

is i know the things that will help me

and i can’t make myself do

them when i started crafting the

therapeutic lifestyle change program for

depression what several colleagues told

me is yes we see the research we see the

science we see the evidence we know

these things will help but they’re all

the things people can’t do when they’re

depressed right

and and my gentle pushback was

friendly amendment these are things they

cannot initiate often when they’re

depressed but if they have someone to

partner with them to provide them that

spark of initiative that their left

frontal cortex is not giving

then they can do them so let’s take

exercise for example so what is the

antidepressant dose of exercise luckily

it’s very low

the the most robustly established

antidepressant what do i mean by

antidepressant as effective as the

average drug for the average patient

three times a week

i’ll say it again because it’s low 30

minutes of brisk aerobic walking three

times a week

that’s been tested in head-to-head

trials against zoloft sertraline

twice now at my alma mater duke

university

and found to be every bit as effective

in the short term more effective

at preventing recurrence

and it’s super low dose but

patients with depression usually have

trouble making themselves do it so what

do we do we partner with them we say you

know would you let us play the role of

your left frontal cortex would you let

us

schedule the exercise with you

or with your trainer would you let us

then give you a little prompt a little

tickler a little reminder what do you

call it tickler that’s fine i think that

works yeah

i don’t know i’m looking at the

millennial in the room

no

yeah i’m in between is there a cooler

i’m on the latter end of the millennial

spectrum right now i’ve got to have a

cooler word yeah i’m the

i don’t oh

i don’t have a cooler word than tickler

yeah

um so a little tickler

a half hour before the workout like hey

you know we just just took a little

reminder we you know we’re mrs jones you

know we’re going to be meeting in a half

hour

and it’s like oh now the trainer is

playing the role of the left frontal

cortex giving that signal that spark

that the depressed person is not getting

on their own so what do we find people

with depression can exercise people with

depression can enjoy exercise people

with depression can benefit enormously

but they cannot make themselves do it

usually

so we have to let go of the judgment we

have to let go of the nagging we have to

let go of the self-blame

and just be freaking realist about it

it’s like

let’s validate for people that are

suffering with depression it’s like yes

depression is taking you away from your

best self

it’s robbing you of capabilities that

you normally have

and there’s no judgment

but we’re going to partner with you

to help you do the things that you need

to do

to get well

because when you’re well you’ll be able

to initiate all the things again

hopefully yeah if you could before you

you got depressed then you’ll be able to

again yeah yeah absolutely and i think

that’s the that’s the that’s a special

sauce in the tlc model because you know

at peaks recovery certainly we have an

opportunity to front line with

medications and do what we can there and

i hope that the viewers watching this as

well too can hear all the things that

doctors are trying to roll through in

their heads as prescribers or even

mid-level providers as they go through

this because i mean that’s back to my

point about the dopamine medication it’s

like don’t we have these things you know

it was kind of rhetorical right we do

have these things but why don’t we throw

that at them you know in that sort of

way because it comes with all these

consequences a med and then a med to

manage the symptoms of the med and you

know potentially all of this you know

fallout

and then on the other side of that we

have psychotherapy you know but the med

is going to take time to ramp up and the

depressed patient is having difficulty

just sitting in that environment and it

feels like as the next sensible thing

and why this tlc model is so fascinating

uh is because now we can do so much more

with the time that we have them within

these residential settings and

differently than the challenges of your

you know your research studies where

they had to kind of go home come back

report that sort of thing and you’ve got

them yeah

and you can provide a level of support

and a level of for one of the better

word stress management sure that you

know is just going to be so

incredibly beneficial for many patients

and so with the integration i mean

when you talk about depression i just

keep having this

this idea of like paralysis right it’s

like almost like a neural paralysis

where things just are stuck like you

can’t

move in any way shape or form

neurologically to a certain degree and

then you have something you introduce

medication which gives you

neuroplasticity right so you’ve got some

room to maneuver at that point but then

that desire to

to actually make those changes and push

forward and push through that paralysis

requires almost like

neural like a neural partner right like

somebody to come and partner with you in

order to push you along and so then you

have these all of a sudden though you’ve

got all of the major components

especially in something like a

residential program where you can really

come at it from all these different

angles and like you said do all the

things right exactly right and then we

have iop right where we get to help them

make those habits lifelong habits and

and change the environment they’re in

and i think that’s what’s exciting about

this yes that’s a really important point

too right because we were talking about

this earlier but

so much of the if we if we zoom out to

landscape of mental health and treating

depression what we see

is it’s challenging to treat depression

in the short term

in the first couple months

but we have the tools if we’re willing

to do all the things we’ve got the tools

it’s like we’ve got this in the great

majority of cases

the bigger challenge is treating it in

the long term

very similar case i would say i think

you’d agree with substance use disorders

where absolutely you know the short-term

outcomes are better generally than the

long-term outcomes and yet we’re playing

the long game

we want our patients to thrive in the

long term and so that means now how can

we pivot from this very cocoon like can

i use that word this oasis like

environment of 45 days where i’m going

to be

really well cared for

but everything in my environment is

controlled and now i’ve got to pivot

back out to the real world my life as it

exists outside

how do i take all of these new tools and

skills and associations and generalize

them out to my life in the world and

that that is

i mean

it’s like you’re speaking my love

language now because because i mean i’m

so excited about this this 45-day

residential i mean

that’s miraculous that that exists

but then to be able to take that and

take it out into somebody’s you know

real world life is is so important

absolutely

yeah

um

yeah so well there are a lot of

different directions we can go yeah with

this yeah one of the one of the

challenges of integrated care and i

don’t know if uh if there’s you know a

tone you can put on it or give us some

insights or just a general conversation

but you go to integrate the care and

major depressive patient and sud patient

are sitting next to each other and say

i’m not like that person and i’m not

like that person and why are we in the

same room together and you’re treating

something different but it reminds you

know going back to that you know the the

dopamine you know uh reward circuits you

remember reward circuits in scenario

that’s the that’s the intersection

that’s the bridge well the two two

bridges one is profound suffering yeah

profound suffering

and you know i i don’t know if you all

find this but i find that when people

are suffering

a lot of the superfluous things in life

get stripped away and people get very

real

because it’s like you know i mean like i

worked for three months on a brain tumor

clinic

with patients that

for the most part had about a year to

live

and it was the most existentially

profound experience professionally of my

life because people just get so most

people not everyone but most people just

get very dialed in to what’s important

and what’s not

and i feel like a lot of sud patients

get that way

i mean they’ve been to the brink a lot

absolutely right they’ve been to the

brink

a lot of depressed patients have been

suicidal they’ve been to the brink some

of them made a town some of them made

serious attempts

and then you know now they’re at this

moment where they’re like i you know

i can’t take much more of this i need

some relief and they’re coming to you

and they’re desperate

and your sud patients are coming to you

and they’re desperate

so

they’re experiencing the suffering

and

they have

compromised reward circuits and you know

for those who want to take the deep dive

there’s a dopamine receptor subtype that

helps coordinate

activity in the these circuits are

called d2 receptors

and long story short

people with sud have low levels of d2

receptors so the reward circuits don’t

work correctly they don’t get high on

life but they get way way way too much

reward from substances of abuse

people with depression also low d2

receptors also wonky reward circuitry so

they’re kindred

yeah and by the way there’s a lot of

overlap because a lot of people with

depression self-medicate

and a lot of addicts become depressed

and a lot of those who are not addicts

but just sud you know abuse folks get

depressed so and i think both of those

worlds those uh people suffering from

either sud or depression feel isolated

they feel like they feel completely

disconnected and brilliant and again

yeah earlier in the day we talked about

the idea of you know the opposite of

addiction being connection and so the i

and we were talking about the opposite

of suffering is also connection yeah so

it’s interesting you get it’s this

ironic thing again where you have two

people sitting next to each other who

feel so far apart but they’re actually

so close together and one of the actual

things that would make them feel even

better was is to find that connection

with each other and to share that so

it’s just this kind of i i don’t know i

think that we we live in a world of

irony a lot of times in what we do

there’s so many levels of irony that we

are dealing with and it’s just really

interesting to hear them point it out

that way and uh sort of have a different

angle and a different lens to look at it

through that’s a great connection i love

that

yeah just this idea that whether

somebody’s sud or depressed

they’re experiencing the sense of

alienation absolutely the sense of

isolation and

often just profound disconnection yeah

often also i hadn’t thought about this

but profound

self-loathing

absolutely that’s literally a symptom of

depression

is self-deprecation self-loathing but so

common in sud as well because people

have made really bad decisions often and

they’re beating themselves up and

they’re seeing the fallout absolutely

and i think we as a you know peaks we’ve

really we we work really hard to try to

get rid of this idea of

uh substance use disorder and mental

health disorder being different they are

so the same you know they are so

intertwined it’s it’s again it goes it

goes back to suffering and it goes back

to this connection it goes back to

self-loathing it goes back to

this a sort of neural paralysis that you

exist in and and the treatment again is

uh is

there’s so much overlap and can be so

similar for both sides exactly and it’s

um

yeah so it’s just it’s great to hear i

don’t know some affirmation for that to

be quite honest yeah well i get really

excited about it and you know the other

thing i just want if it’s okay to circle

back to something you said earlier just

about

um okay so you’ve got 45 days if if

somebody’s coming residential if they’re

doing intensive outpatient it’s a little

bit different but

when somebody’s suffering they want

relief immediately

if we use a standard anti-depressant so

the typical treatment that the majority

of patients are going to get one

antidepressant standard off the shelf

garden variety anti-depressant they’re

told usually like two to six weeks

depending if you’re lucky two weeks if

you’re not so lucky maybe four to six

weeks four kicks in and we see anxiety

three weeks depression four weeks is

typical okay there you go yeah

you know and there are exceptions or you

know uh

so

what what are we at that’s faster

well you know there’s a lot of

excitement around

more i think of them maybe you all don’t

as a little bit more extreme

interventions um some folks obviously

have heard for decades about

electroshock that we now call

electroconvulsive therapy it’s faster

has re there are reasons why it’s not a

go-to intervention for most people but

it is faster

tms transcranial magnetic stimulation

is faster for some people the effects

are not as robust yet as i would like

them to be but there’s there’s still it

can be faster well guess what this is

where i get super excited

light therapy bright light therapy not

just for somebody who has winter onset

depression not just for somebody who has

seasonal depression or sad some people

have heard

for any depression

effects can kick in within five to seven

days

it’s fast acting

now i’ve got a nutritional intervention

that can kick in within seven days

acetyl l-carnitine

and acetyl-carnitine is like it’s a

nutrient

that

our bodies mostly have to i say a

nutrient it’s it’s a a nutrient that our

bodies make out of substrate that we get

from our diet how about that and the

more we age

the crappier our body isn’t making it so

if you look at people who are depressed

in their teens and 20s their levels of

acetyl-carnitine are usually sort of

okay they’re lower than we would want

them to be but they’re okay and and

what it means is if their levels are low

the powerhouse the mitochondria of their

brain cells are not as efficient and so

literally their brain is getting a bit

underpowered

and the circuits that they need

uh get fatigued more quickly

so they can’t fire as efficiently okay

so we can supplement with

acetyl-l-carnitine and the best research

is two thousand milligrams a day divided

dose so a thousand milligrams twice a

day

and not only in the best

meta-analysis studies of studies does

acetyl-l-carnitine

outperform placebo

with an effect size that’s roughly on

par with medication

has no common side effects

and effects kick in typically within

about a week

and were you saying that’s more

important with age more important with

the thank you right it’s yeah so for

those of us who are of a certain age

on the wrong side 40 how about the wrong

side of 40

yeah

there’s some really nice signal in the

in the research that says that

middle-aged and older depressed

individuals really respond right and

younger individuals are less likely to

have that i haven’t heard of that before

so yeah it’s a pretty cool little little

tidbit

and there are other things as well but i

guess my point is

that

even if we don’t want to go to something

as extreme as electro-convulsive therapy

to get that really fast effect because

we’re we’re all impatient we’re

americans

we’re not saying right of course we’re

impatient but people are suffering

people’s lives are hanging in the

balance of course we’re impatient

we don’t have to wait four weeks

we have things already in the toolkit

that can get this recovery going and get

it going pretty quickly

and i think a lot of people don’t

realize that can i give you one more

please okay

we did we did not rehearse this we don’t

script this i’m totally going off script

now ladies and gentlemen

and brandon is he bold

i’m open to it okay

martin luther said sin boldly so here we

go um

good intro

it’s a little reformation yeah the

viewers at home are like

come on sin boldly where is he taking

this

yeah

you you’ll edit that out yeah um

there is a

novel

integrative intervention

called

chronotherapy

have you heard of it i’m not familiar

okay it involves three things the first

of which is going to blow your mind yeah

you want to know how to get

an immediate antidepressant effect with

someone even if they’re severely

depressed it will warning disclaimer it

will only last for about 12 hours

keep the person up for 36 straight hours

i kid you not

acute sleep

deprivation 36 hours of continuous

wakefulness has a profound acute

antidepressant effect why do we not use

it aside from the obvious people don’t

like staying up 36 hours

because

as soon as the person goes to sleep when

they wake up the next day they’re right

back where they started there’s zero

enduring effect

but proof of concept

sleep deprivation strategically employed

antidepressant we can build on that

second

component

circadian

circuit reset

most people with depression have a body

clock that is out of sync with the

ambient world around them

the most common form of circadian phase

shifting

is the person’s body clock

thinks that it is a couple hours maybe

three hours later than it really is

so we say it’s phase advanced so they

wake up let’s say they’re wake time

what’s the wait time in the room here

six a.m is that yeah say six it’s great

okay yeah so their wake time is 6 a.m

but they’re wide awake at 3 a.m because

their body clock is telling them oh it’s

we call this by the way terminal

insomnia because it’s at the terminus of

their sleep cycle interesting okay

so we want to phase shift them

three hours

right and that will help a lot it will

help with their sleep which has

antidepressant therapeutic effects the

final thing is the use of bright light

therapy which we’ve talked about before

so you combine all three

there is a center for chronotherapy in

chicago

that’s a residential

facility

we really should talk about this is

pretty cool because you guys could do

this

um where they have

patients come in and they’re like okay

we’re going to combine these three

things

so we’re going to keep you up 36

straight hours

and then we’re going to

let you sleep for a while

actually it’ll be more than 36 or eight

hours it’ll be we’re basically going to

shift their body clock about four hours

every day

until we’ve run all the way through

the the clock if you think if you do the

math in your head it’s like five or six

days

and we’re going to hit them with a

massive dose of therapeutic bright light

as soon as they wake up

to give a signal of circadian reset to

be like okay hey you know what

um it’s now 8 am but your brain thinks

it’s noon hey it’s now noon or 8 am but

your brain thinks it’s four in the

afternoon and then the next day eight

in the evening and after a week you’ve

run the entire cycle your back around

where you started

and you can get them entrained

perfectly to the world around them you

get the acute benefit of sleep

deprivation it doesn’t go away because

you’re continually keeping the brain off

balance and you have the antidepressant

effect of the bright light

and you can now connect with people

because they’re up at the same time

exactly yeah and at the center for

chronotherapy in chicago

they um you know they try to use the

milieu of it right so they have like

activities for folks when it’s four in

the morning and they’re all up and they

and they shine pretty bright light out

in the patient day room where they’re

all hanging out

so it’s a it’s a but it’s a very fast

acting

very powerful oh by the way it’s been

used in bipolar depression

and patients with bipolar are

exquisitely sensitive to light

exquisitely sensitive to changes in

circadian rhythm exquisitely sensitive

to sleep deprivation

and

it has a roughly 50 percent acute

response rate in bipolar depression in a

week

which is

far higher

than any in a week any current

therapeutic medication that we have for

bipolar depression

so there’s some all kinds of really cool

exciting potentials i would say

and not to veer off script here but uh

on the manic side of bipolar disorder

wasn’t there a light benefit or an

anti-light benefit yeah because yeah

thank you so bipolar patients i don’t

know if you guys have ever experimented

with this but bipolar patients

exquisitely sensitive to light

and very sensitive to um

time change

you know going on and off of daylight

savings time can often be a trigger for

depression or mania

but it’s recently been discovered that

when a patient with bipolar is manic

or

mixed where there’s sort of

simultaneously manic and some depressive

symptoms

if you use polarized wraparound goggles

or lenses polarized in the sense that

they’re that deep amber

okay kind of like if folks know the rock

star bono of youtube

he has glaucoma

and has to filter out that light for

medical reasons for it’s the same basic

principle

um

patients with mania who filter out

probably most people know about blocking

blue light like at night it’s blue light

is very stimulating

patients with mania where they block out

blue light 24 7 and then stay out of

direct sunlight

it has enormous potential to break a

manic episode

and can be used in tandem with

anti-manic medication

to potentiate the effect to quicken the

effect to speed it up to make it more

robust

and in some cases i’m not recommending

this at all but in some cases it’s been

used without medication for patients

as you probably know sometimes when

patients are manic they they do

everything against medical advice

because they have impaired judgment

and they will not take them in

but sometimes they will agree to wear

the cool bono glasses

right sounds like a fantastic

alternative

um

so i feel like we’re just scratching the

tip of the iceberg

on leveraging

the neurological power

of lifestyle based intervention

these things are like drugs and their

effects on the brain

absolutely yeah

powerful stuff so dr ryan yeah you got

the challenging job we got to keep him

up for 36 hours

you get hazardous duty pay for that

right

i love the idea i think we need a little

more robust nursing staff

you’d have to definitely make some new

hires for sure

no but i’m curious dr reddit i mean

there’s somebody who you know you live

in the trenches with this right i’ve

seen i and i’ve

you know being in rounds with you and um

with working with the clinical team the

medical team even our residential team

and and seeing people struggle and

really trying to get a hold on what is

going to be the best approach to help

stabilize them to help keep them engaged

to help

i mean we’re not even at symptom

reduction yet at that point right but uh

but listening to this and listening to

this sort of approach and which does

feel integrative it actually has a

genuinely holistic feel to it i’m just

curious what your response is

i love it um i mean i think it has the

potential

now to fix them while they’re with us

but more importantly to set them up for

success in the future um

when he spoke

earlier today steve you talked about a

spider web

yeah

do you want to yeah go ahead and talk

about this

[Laughter]

he talked about depression be having a

lot of different attachments and

basically every every

thing you can pull off so a medication

you’re pulling off a big string you’re

pulling off another string with light

therapy with exercise with connectedness

with nutrition what am i missing

uh habits of healthy sleep habits of

healthy sleep i mean you’re just pulling

more off of that

brain axis and yeah

and i think the more we more of those

strings we can pull off

the better people are going to do i love

the analogy i think it’s great for thank

you yeah

yeah metaphor metaphor analogy

yes yes

so

yeah i i mean i a patient

actually actually

many years ago said to me you know i

just feel like i’m caught in this web

um and it always stayed with me that

that image of like being trapped in this

web and then when i started thinking

about how depression involves all these

different layers of dysregulation

molecular

neurochemical

hormonal

cognitive affective potential and we

haven’t even talked about like the

attentional biases people when they’re

depressed

the brain only wants to go to negative

things people when they’re depressed

they they don’t want to be around other

people so there’s the social withdrawal

piece there’s the i mean there’s so many

different layers and it’s like this web

and our typical approach like we talked

about earlier is monotherapy we’re going

to do the one thing we’re looking for

the one magic

stone that we can throw at the web and

bring the whole thing down

and sometimes we get lucky sometimes we

get lucky and the one thing really does

bring it down for some people some for

some time

but god it just makes so much more sense

to think about like what if i have a

whole pocket full of stones or you know

like a shotgun or something where i can

just blast this thing

and i feel like

how about this

depression is so much more treacherous

than we give it credit for being it’s so

much harder to fix it is fixable

it’s completely fixable but it’s so much

harder to to get it well and keep

somebody well

and we do our patients a grave

disservice by

being very cavalier and very oh yeah

yeah we got this our these meds are like

magic these it’s like the meds you know

they’re helpful but they’re not all that

for so many patients but if we’re

willing to really take it seriously like

you all do at peaks that’s what i get

really excited about yeah i’m going to

send you so many patients yeah

[Laughter]

love it also would love to figure out a

you know path forward to you know we

have a setting in which

you know it’s a little bit different

than the ambulatory stylus setting in

which we could approach you know maybe a

project of research or something around

it to really ignite this and

locate its value proposition because

this is exciting stuff and

i don’t want to insist that we’re the

only treatment center thinking of this

in america but

i think our industry is sort of missing

this opportunity to really

bring in all of these things at the same

time but to do that we have to

responsibly think about integration of

care we cannot just talk about drugs in

these settings that’s a really visionary

a rich genuinely visionary sort of

approach because i mean here’s what i’m

thinking and maybe

you all tell me if i’m too naive about

this because you know the biz way better

than i do

my feeling is

if you could get

some sort of

funding sponsorship

to pay for the research to

like legitimately show with a carefully

controlled conducted research study

that this kind of multi-pronged

approach this

doing all the things approach

is highly effective

now you’ve got this

publication that you can

take to all the industry people all the

leaders all the you know and say

don’t just take our word for it like we

you know

we have

independent verification that what we’re

doing is working

and we’d like we’d like to make this the

gold standard yeah but to do it right

it’s going to take some money

some money some time a lot of time

to get it right why did you point to me

because

when i when i hear all the things i

think that is your

you are mr all the things that yes wait

doctor

he’s director of all things

chief of all things at peace recovery

centers there

there’s so much to expand on to talk

about to be excited about on this i do

you know while we got the the sort of

the medi the met the strict medical lens

here before we invite the the clinical

side of things into this you know the

anti-ruminating you know uh

psychotherapy psychotherapy approaches

and so forth into this i i did want to

touch base you know chris burns one of

the host president founder of peace

recovery centers is often talking about

the vulnerable population

and what i what i would like to talk

about is that you know it really uh

struck me as kind of obvious for myself

when you were talking about it earlier

with our team but

you know i wake up in the morning and i

get the sunshine i think this is a

beautiful day look at this mountain

that’s in front of me pike’s peak

america’s mountain man so beautiful you

know we live among nature we get to see

deer running across the highway we get

it all here in you know colorado uh in

that regard and so

you know you get this high on life sort

of experience when your dopamine levels

are up and that’s my common experience

and why it resonates with me so much

with those lower dopamine levels that’s

the vulnerable person we’re talking

about right because they’re taking the

drug and they take it and all of a

sudden it’s the mountain they’re high on

life this is what this guy brandon was

experiencing when he was talking to me

about looking at the mountain that i

don’t experience

yeah exactly right so that’s that’s

that’s one of the real

under

appreciated and i think misunderstood

elements of the

the brain of the person vulnerable to

addiction vulnerable to substance use

disorder is

they’re very often genetically

predisposed to those low d2 receptor

levels so in other words genetically

predisposed to not

be able

as much to get high in life

and to have the drug be able to hack

into their reward circuits the drug

takes over and says

this is what you’ve been missing yeah

this is now your home

now you’re in a space where you feel on

top of the world

by the way fun side note psilocybin

actually does not light up the brain’s

reward circuit or lsd or any of those

it really does i didn’t get that message

when i was doing it

it could be i mean obviously it could be

really

yeah i mean depending on your own

experience it certainly can have a

reward component by the way

a lot of

folks probably know psilocybin is now

being actively investigated

as a

supercharging agent for effective

psychotherapy for depression

so

you know it increases plasticity it

opens people up to reconceptualizing

their stuckness

and under expert therapeutic guidance it

can be a

catalyst

for a lot of healing for a lot of you

know sort of rapid response so i think

it’s been a little bit overhyped

oversold but i’m not in any way opposed

to that kind of research and work i just

want to

basically i’m just giving like a public

service announcement for magic mushrooms

they are being actively investigated at

some of the leading research centers in

the world as a

legitimate psychiatric

agent

but they don’t they’re not a drug of

addiction typically yeah um but yeah

like alcohol how about i mean there’s a

very common drug of addiction

um

you know

can i say this we were out to dinner

last night there may have been a glass

or two of alcohol consumed

um in a very responsible manner and

um

a little bit of dopaminergic reward

which you know all drugs of addiction do

but if somebody has high d2 receptor

levels they just walk away they’re just

like oh yeah that was fine whatever

um

and so i feel like once we start viewing

addiction through this lens of these are

our

brothers and sisters our fellow

travelers

who are laboring right now with the

burden of reward circuits that don’t get

lit up the way they’re supposed to

when they hug a friend when they see the

beauty of nature when they have an uh a

professional accomplishment when they

have sex when they do anything

except for using and when they’re using

then it lights everything up and that’s

a tragedy and you know it’s like if we

can have that viewpoint for me at least

i’ll just speak to myself judgment melts

away

and compassion

seems to be the only sane response

yeah you know um so yeah i just i

i love the work you’re doing um i i love

i love the compassion i love the sanity

i love the

you know the community absolutely um

yeah

so

well i think that’s beautiful and

exactly what we’re you know what we’re

coming to here when we apprecia we can

all appreciate that decisions are being

made around alcohol use drug use and so

forth

but at the level of decision making

they

those who suffer from addiction

don’t know

that that is the underlying thing within

their being right that’s going to get

ignited and that experience is going to

happen making them most vulnerable or

susceptible to

gosh i want to do that one more time

just to because that felt really right

in that moment in displaced this moral

personal responsibility conundrum thing

we find ourselves stuck and i think as a

society to say well they chose right we

all choose but we’re all kind of

vulnerable and susceptible in different

ways within those choices and that

displaces personal responsibility uh

in a much different way than i

experience personal responsibility and

they’re just like i think that choice

narrative is actually true for people

who struggle with depression as well

because we’re so cavalier with what we

identify as depression

there is this idea well then just stop

being depressed you know like go do

stuff oh my god yourself feel better

just snap out of it just absolutely do

the things that you it’s like stop doing

the drugs snap out of the get stop being

so sad all the time you know watch a

funny movie that it’s it’s all of these

very like simplistic very misinformed

kind of perceptions that we have that

are ingrained culturally and have turned

what are really debilitating illnesses

into taboos absolutely and one of the

really interesting things that happens

when somebody’s recovering from

addiction

is it takes a while and by a while i

mean like three to 12 months

for their reward circuits to start

getting

normal again near normal

near normal yeah more normal

normal enough to be

to get them past the craving and you

know

um

once they can push through with massive

support

and compassion and acceptance

to get to a place of sustained recovery

their d2 receptors start to normalize

their reward circuit starts they start

to regain the ability to get high on

life

why

because substance use actually changes

the brain and pushes those d2 receptors

down

substance use actually makes the reward

circuits more blunted

and

sobriety

extended through time

allows the reward circuits to normalize

and heal experience changes the brain

and that’s a profound sort of thought

yes we may be born genetically more

vulnerable less vulnerable but guess

what

i’ve known lots of people who were born

genetically not vulnerable to addiction

never had a problem until they were

prescribed

an opiate

prescribed a benzodiazepine like xanax

by the way benzodiazepines the number

one most prescribed class of psychiatric

meds in the u.s

party drugs

possibly

what could possibly go wrong

zany

yeah it’s our most prescribed that’s

crazy um so anyway i’m not here to bash

well a little bit yeah

and so easy to find in the black market

as well too of course it’s everywhere

but here’s my point yeah

i have known people who were as far as i

know the only person in their very vast

extended genetic circle that had an

addiction they were addicted to benzos

why because they’re

typically family practice stock 90 of no

offense 90 of benzos are prescribed by

general practice

dogs not psychiatrists psychiatrists

usually see the danger usually not

always

the best the best family practice not

always the best family practice doctor

see the danger but a lot don’t right

okay

so they’re prescribed the benzo

as a sleep aid yeah but they take it

every night yeah after getting their

ritalin and adderall yeah right yeah so

but but then after a couple years now

they are completely addicted

they did not start off with an addictive

vulnerability we created the addictive

vulnerability but now that they’re

addicted their d2 receptor levels are

low even though they were born with a

nice high genetic level you see it so

regardless of whether if you’re born

with a low level

well guess what getting connected with

people being immersed in community

exercising regularly

having better nutrition getting good

sleep all those things actually raise

your d2 receptor levels make you less

vulnerable and so people get out of our

detox they’re like why do i still feel

crappy

and then

you have to be honest it’s going to take

a year before you start feeling near

normal yeah in two years before you’re

fairly normal yeah and well dr ryan

every addiction treatment center website

says we can fix this we can support this

and i think that to your point and the

reason i’m highlighting that because i’m

vulnerable to it you know we want to be

in a position to help people and our

website says something similar i think

we want to have more transparent honest

discussions about what this is going to

take from mental health primary to sud

primary you know a dual diagnosis of you

know maybe both categories uh in that

regard that we’re dealing with something

quite complex and it’s not taboo we

don’t shake it and it goes away we don’t

say stop thinking it and it goes away

you know or just throw these monotherapy

approaches at it it goes away we’ve

learned in real time the ineffective

nature of all of these approaches and

it’s time to

get real and honest about that support

the public to recognize that yes these

things are valuable but it’s not a

single shot and we need to work toward

all of these things in support of that

and

i know

to the to be charitable to our industry

insurance is running a lot of this you

know you know through you know tms

clinic and so forth like that front-end

medication we have to see the failure

first before we can intervene with other

things at the level of insurance

that’s nonsense it perpetuates the issue

in a way as well too so not only is the

situation complex for major depressive

disorder sud and so forth it’s complex

from the downward pressure we experience

as a society for how these things are

paid for delivered in real time

that tangent i suppose for another day

but just wanted to

highlight that from what you were

stating yeah i mean i i think

if you need help come to peaks i think

we do cutting edge medications i think

we have top-notch curriculum top-notch

therapists and we’re going to start

integrating more holistic

effects that are going to set people up

for the future i think that’s

that’s the next step for us

and and yeah and i love the fact that

there’s a kind of an interesting dance

between i mean

one of your core values is

like unvarnished honesty you’ve never

told me that but i can see it right i

mean

it’s just being really genuine and

honest

but at the same time there’s a wisdom

component to

like

there are helpful truths and there’s a

timing to it and i so here’s just my my

take on this and i’ll

throw it out there and maybe this is a

horrible idea but

i feel like when somebody is just

starting down the path of recovery

from addiction

it’s too much to give them the truth of

like it could be two years

brother it could be two years before

it’s like

okay you know what

this drug is

literally ruining your life and you know

it and that’s why you’re here

um and we are here for you we’ve got

your back we’re going to partner with

you and we’ll get you through the

toughest stretch of it and we’re going

to give you all kinds of tools all kinds

of support

and

every day

you’re going to get one step closer to

this goal and

we’re not going gonna lie and say it’s

an easy road but it’s a valuable road

and it’s so worth doing and you know

millions of people have discovered that

they’ve it’s like that path has been

blazed that trail has been blazed we

know it

but you know what i mean so like

absolutely to celebrate the small wins

to celebrate like every day is a win

every day of sobriety every day of you

know is a win

and yeah at the end of 45 days okay

we’re gonna be honest like this this was

the first phase of your journey

but if you quit now

your odds of staying well you know

without doing phase two

not great

yeah absolutely i think it’s i think the

idea that being a journey is exactly

what it is and it’s it’s a journey of

discovery it’s a journey of healing it’s

a journey of repair yes uh

psychologically and and physiologically

and being able to like you said

celebrate the

entire spectrum of what recovery is

whether it’s recovery from substance use

or recovery within mental health

without suffering from mental health

diagnoses it’s it’s a journey every

recovered addict that i’ve known

personally

has told me that early on that journey

they had to wholeheartedly embrace the

wisdom of just think about today

absolutely can you get through and if

you if that’s too big

can you get through the next hour right

and we’re here for you and we got you

and you know we’re going to get you

through this it’s like

we face these moments of incredible

weakness and temptation but it’s like i

can power through the next hour or the

this day

and if that person who’s feeling

depleted and overwhelmed has to think

about

oh my god it’s a two-year journey to get

you know it’s just it’s too much truth i

don’t even think about that it’s too

much truth for them right right

totally yeah

there’s got to be hope right there’s got

to be some next thing so maybe we don’t

think about it i think family systems

should appreciate this is going to have

a major time component to it but we

celebrate the

successful interventions along the way

we celebrate every win yeah absolutely

and and we don’t burden

people with the we see it’s like you

know with kids it’s like you don’t

burden your kids with

there’s certain knowledge that like

they’ll be ready for it someday but like

right now they don’t

need to grapple with the problem of evil

right why are there psychopaths that

torment people and it’s like you know

what honey we’ll get there someday

you know though i will say i think

there’s a time where it it does benefit

people to know that to know that yes it

my brain will get back to normal because

because they have this fear that it’s

never going to get better absolutely and

it will yeah

and they yeah

yeah absolutely

well on that note um i suppose as the

host i gotta i gotta cut it at some

point the social media the kids they can

only watch clips in

you know 30 seconds five minutes out of

times i’m sure somebody’s popping

popcorn in the background right now you

know we’re gonna come back to it i think

there’s still no wait there’s yeah no go

ahead so

i was going to say there’s a drinking

game but this is the wrong audience

so hard cut off there

we’ll take it out of there

i cannot believe it the old clinical

psychology

i’m with college undergrads absolutely

all right totally different settings

no worries no worries and an

appreciation of

um

[Music]

you

uh dr elardi being on this with us thank

you so much dr ryan for joining us as

well too clint nicholson

all things peaks recovery centers to the

viewers out there i certainly hope this

was supportive helpful to your family

systems

the knowledge download that’s taking

place and hopefully creating some

curiosity for you and your loved one

about how you can approach

treatment options down the road check

out dr steven elardy’s book the

depression cure amazon all the

bookstores it’s a great read on the next

episode we’re going to talk about the

shtick the thing that

is the the thread that makes all of this

true at the end of the day

we’ll talk about it we’ll challenge it

we’ll do all those things uh remember if

you’ve got uh additional questions

thoughts ideas finding peaks at

peaksrecovery.com

we’ll put it in there and that box there

we got some talent in the back that’ll

be able to do that for me uh chris burns

on the tick tock screaming at it love it

keep watching it

highlighting that on behalf of peaks

recovery centers uh the twitter the

facebooks all the other things until

next time everyone wait wait wait

shout out to uh

i have a a podcast yeah yeah do it yeah

can i do it yeah absolutely

camera three yeah

mental health with steve allardy and

hugh james it uh so it’s a he’s hugh is

an irish poet

who is hilarious unlike me

and it’s it’s we’re the perfect odd

couple he’s young i’m old uh he’s the

poet i’m the scientist he’s irish i’m a

mayor i mean it’s anyway

we tackle really really deep dark tough

mental health mental illness issues

with a kind of a light touch

and yet at the same time really honoring

uh the experience of those that are

suffering different forms of mental

illness so um look for it if you’re in

the podcast we also are doing a youtube

thing so um very cool you had me at

irish poet so

[Laughter]

okay love it and thank you and please

watch it absolutely listen to it get

involved with it this is a big topic an

excellent

uh professional and individual guiding

us through those things as well too so

until next time everybody thank you