The Inclusion Think Tank: Recent Episodes
NJCIE
The Inclusion Think Tank Podcast is presented by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education (NJCIE). This podcast features conversations with inclusive education experts and advocates to discuss the impact of inclusion in schools. It serves as a resource for educators, school administrators, and families who are seeking additional knowledge about topics related to inclusive education.
NJCIE is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization that serves parents and educators in New Jersey. Established in 1989 by professionals and parents, it is the only nonprofit organization in New Jersey with the sole focus on inclusive education and provides needed expertise to schools and educators on how to include students with disabilities into school communities and classrooms with dignity and equality. NJCIE supports inclusive education for all students as a fundamental civil right and views inclusion as a means to creating an equitable, socially just democratic society.
This is the inclusion think tank podcast brought by all in for inclusive education where we talk about inclusive education, why it works on how to make it happen. On today’s episode I welcome my guest, Dr. Heather Austin, director of special services at Clark public schools. today. Heather joins me to discuss presentation from the All In winter conference titled the history of the disability rights movement, and person first language. We engage in a discussion about the history of the disability rights movement, the progress that still need still made, and how the way in which content is presented informs our own teaching practice and engagement in social spheres
Luke LaChac joins Arthur on this week’s episode of the Inclusion Think Tank. Luke is a middle school history teacher. Luke discusses how using the principles of universal design, scaffolding, and differentiation can be beneficial to all learners.
Julie Lang, an Inclusion Facilitator for All In, joins Arthur on this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank to discuss how educators can shift from a deficit thinking to a strengths-based approach to benefit all of their students in the classroom.
Dr. Shri Rao joins Arthur on the Inclusion Think Tank podcast. They discuss the importance of embracing welcoming first-person narratives and perspectives and practices that affirm neurodiversity.
Today I welcome my guests Kathleen Derillo and Jennifer Horne. Kathleen is the District Supervisor of Special Services and Projects in the Kenilworth school district. Jennifer is the Supervisor of Special Services at Bridgewater Raritan Regional High School. During our conversation, we discussed helpful communication and collaboration strategies and how educators can incorporate these practices to meet the needs of all learners.
Rachael Graves and Mary Rose Pullo join Arthur on the Inclusion Think Tank this week. Their conversation explores the necessary steps that need to be taken to eliminate resource rooms in high school and why it may not be as difficult as you may think.
This is a content warning: This episode discusses self-harm and suicide. Listener/viewer discretion is advised
On this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank, Arthur is joined by Kory Kutzler. Kory is a supervisor for a partial hospitalization program in Pennsylvania and oversees teachers and psychologists at the Northampton County Detention Center. Arthur and Kory talk about how trauma-informed care can be applied in the classroom, and some self-care techniques that can be beneficial to students and educators as well.
Kate Sullivan joins Arthur on this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank to talk about the importance and impact of the disability rights movement and how learning about this historical moment can help students gain a deeper understanding of societal inequities and cultivate the empathy and advocacy skills necessary for creating a more inclusive school environment.
On today’s episode, I welcome my guests, Kevin Morra and Alyssa Rush. Kevin is the Director of Special Services and Alyssa is a Supervisor of Special Education at Berkeley Heights School District.
Alyssa Kevin of Berkeley join me on the Inclusion Think Tank podcast to discuss how they address the challenges faced when implementing inclusive practices in their district.
TranscriptArthur: "Welcome to the Inclusion Think Tank where we talk about inclusive education, why it works, and how to make it happen.
A note from the host: as this and several future episodes were pre-recorded, you will hear references to New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, also known as NJCIE, which has since undergone a name change to All In for Inclusive Education. Please note that, although it has a new name, All In for Inclusive Education is still doing its usual awesome things.
On today’s episode, I welcome my guest Sara Jutcovich. Sara is an Inclusion Facilitator with ALL IN, She is currently a doctoral student studying Educational Leadership with a specialization in Special Education. During our conversation today, we discussed Specially Designed Instruction, often referred to as SDI, why is it important, and how can educators plan or incorporate SDI into their classroom setting.
Arthur: I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. I am your host, Arthur Aston, and I am joined today by my guest, Sara Jutcovich. So thank you, Sara, for joining me today. I'm excited for our conversation.
Sara: Same here. Thanks for having me, Arthur.
Arthur: Yes. So to begin our conversation, can you share a little bit about yourself, who you are, some things you enjoy doing in your free time? I always say if you have any free time and also share a little bit about what you do as an inclusion facilitator with NJCIE.
Sara: Sure. So a little bit about myself. I was a teacher in New York City for ten years.
My background is in inclusive education. In elementary education. I also have a masters in literacy as well. And the reason I went into all of that is when I was a young student, I would say second or third grade I was diagnosed with a learning disability as well and just have really been passionate about inclusive education. I've had a range of educational experiences in segregated settings and inclusive settings, and they were night and day.
So my my focus has really been all around inclusive education. I went to undergrad for that and I was really specific in the kind of program I was looking for. And ever since then I've been passionate about that and really working to help, give more opportunities for students to have inclusive educational experiences.
And like you said, in my spare time, if I have any, I do have two little kids, two daughters, ages two and four. So we're very busy here. And when I'm not working, keeping up with them and just running around, but they're the best.
I'm trying to think what else?
Sara: Oh, my day-to-day as an inclusion facilitator, what's so great about this job is that there's no two days that are the same. I really get to do so many wonderful things.
Being an inclusion facilitator. Some days I'm in schools working with our implementation teams for our grant work, other days I'm doing coaching for some of our for-fee schools.
It really is as a range or we're presenting and speaking at conferences, working with colleagues, collaborating right now, a colleague of mine we're doing some redesign on some of our packages around teaching and differentiation.
So we're always doing different things and it's what keeps this job so interesting, great and special, but it's been fun I've been here for it's my second year, going into my third. So this has been a really great time it at NJCIE.
Arthur: I love asking that question first, I love asking the question of how you became interested in inclusive education just to hear everyone's story because we all got here somehow with finding our passion and finding our love of what we do.
And then also the inclusion facilitator, asking what to do. And everyone says the same thing, like it's so different every day. It's just keeps it interesting. That's the fun part.
Sara: It keeps it interesting, and it also gives us such a range of understanding of education as a whole.
We're seeing different things happening. And even some schools within the same district. Different things, different mindsets, different different areas of need, different areas of strength.
So it's really incredible to see and see such dedicated teachers really across the board, but also different things happening and how we can support.
Arthur: Yes. Yeah. So as you're well aware, this podcast is all about inclusive education.
So how would you define inclusive education? What does inclusive education mean to you?
Sara: I have a few thoughts on it. I think it means all children and all kids, right? Not some kids, all kids. And that's something we come across a lot in our work as well can learn and be successful in a general education environment.
We know the research is really clear on that. We know the legislation is clear on that. But really that belief, that true deep belief that all students can be successful and should be placed there so that they have the best outcomes for their future. I mean, that's really, I think, like the bottom line.
I think it also, though, is a really a commitment about how kind of we view society and our outlook on things and how we believe truly that all students deserve to have that sense of belonging, that sense of true membership in their community.
And I think, sometimes we hear one of those misconceptions like, oh, that sounds so nice on paper, but like, that's not going to work in reality.
Sara: But it can work in reality and it does work in reality when it's set up properly, right? When we have the supports in place for our students and also the supports in place for our teachers so that they feel supported as well in this process.
Sara: So it's there's a lot of factors and a lot of kind of players at play, but it is possible and we do see this as successful when all of the supports are put in place. And again, when teachers, administrators, and families have that understanding that this is really a right for all children, not just a select few and a handful of students, but really for all.
And I think once we we wrap our head around that piece the rest kind of falls into play because then we can make it work. But it's really that mindset of that all students deserve this and not just a handful.
Arthur: Yes. Yeah, that is I think that's the true definition of inclusion. Like to include everyone and realizing that that looks different for different students, their inclusion level, it looks different, but it can be and it is possible. It can be done.
Having the full support of everyone involved and making it happen is the key to being successful with it. So thank you for that great explanation.
Arthur: In June, we held our summer inclusion conference and you were one of the presenters and your presentation was on specially designed instruction.
So can you share with us what the specially designed instruction, also known as SDI? Can you share with us what that is?
Sara: Absolutely. And it's it's actually one of my favorite talk topics to really talk about and discuss. We've been seeing more and more schools and districts asking for support around this. So that's one of the reasons why I picked this for the presentation topic.
So especially design instruction is what makes special education, special. And so one of the activities that I start with for really all of my presentations around this is I show IDEA section 300.39 in case you want to look it up and it really has the definition laid out.
So it says specially designed instruction is a means of adapting as appropriate the content, methodology, and delivery of instruction.
And I actually have the teachers and staff members go through and underline important parts of the definition. And when we kind of tease it out, right, we're adapting content, methodology and delivery to address unique needs. And something important that it says in IDEA is that it actually doesn't say to give some access, right? But it actually says to ensure access.
Sara: So it's really that promise of providing access for students. And then it goes on to say it's to meet the educational standards. It's not just to, again, give access to the standards or, have students just kind of hear it right. Kind of that superficial level. But really to meet the educational standards, which is which is the goal.
And that's really our job as special education teachers to be providing specially designed instruction. And, sometimes in the day-to-day of either teaching or whatever position you're in having kids keep up with the content and all of those things, that piece can sometimes get lost, especially design instruction piece. So that's really what the presentation was about.
Sara: It was how to plan, how to think through specially designed instruction, and also, where to start, where do I start when I'm trying to plan, specially designed instruction.
I'm looking at a student's IEP or multiple students IEPs and thinking, okay, what strategies do I need to put in place? What systems do I need to have to really make sure that I'm getting at the heart of specialty design instruction?
Because it's, again, what the teacher is doing for the students. So sometimes we'll hear, Oh, well, I gave them a graphic organizer. That's the specialty design instruction, right? Or I gave them extended time. But that's that's not really the instruction the teacher is providing. That's a tool or an accommodation that the student is using, which is also important, but that's not specially designed instruction.
So specially designed instruction would be a really targeted reading comprehension strategy if that was an IEP goal that the student was working on or if they have a reading disability that targeted instruction which we know would benefit other students. That's called incidental benefit, right, for the students. But it is something that is designed specifically for that student in mind based on their IEP and their educational needs.
Arthur: I love, they say words are important. When you said to ensure like that’s a really big like one big emphasis like that means something that really does something versus a more general use of a word.
Sara: Absolutely. And many times, the several times I've done this with groups of teachers, they've picked out that word, and meeting educational standards. So they're kind of focused on those those verbs. Right. And that power that is coming to this, that this is the goal. It is really our job to provide this. And it's what's going to help move our students.
Arthur: Yeah, Yeah. When you said that, I was like, wow. that's a really bold that they said that.
That really, hit me like okay like so that really Yeah, it really means something.
Sara: Anne Benninghoff who I've used a lot of her research in her work and in our, SDI trainings and something she says which I love and I always kind of end my presentations with this is, this should be an empowering thing for special education teachers, like the idea that we are providing this specially designed instruction that another teacher is not able to do it like we are able to do this, that this should really be a level of empowerment for us.
Sometimes we talk with special ed teachers and they feel like they're not what sure what they should be doing in the classroom or they feel kind of like an assistant or an aide, or they feel, you know, it's not their place to stop in the, you know, with the general education teachers doing or add their insight.
And again, I think once we can reframe it as like, this is our job, this is our core responsibility to be providing specially designed instruction to students with IEPs, it can really shift how we're planning, how we're thinking about instruction and make a lot of impact.
Arthur: And again, another good word, empowering.
Sara: We all need to be empowered.
Arthur: So why is it important to implement SDI and how can educators plan or incorporate SDI into their classroom setting?
Sara: That’s a that's a great question. And I spend a lot of time really talking about the implementation, right? Because we can like research the best strategies. And I always share lists of strategies and, you know, best practices for different things to do, specially design instruction are there is no list.
So it's kind of we have to kind of put together these best practices through research. We want to keep it really evidence-based and research-based. But once we have that understanding, right? Multi-sensory learning or using a think-aloud, that could be an example, especially design instruction. But then how do I implement it, right?
That's kind of that next step. And we always want to leave teachers with the action. We want it to be actionable for them because if we just give content and we don't make it applicable, we're not going to we're not going to use it right, like anyone. So this thought of how do we then take what we know about specialty design instruction, best practices, and really put it into action?
Sara: So something that I've started doing and I did this when I was teaching, I kind of started like the old school way, right? Paper, pencil. I kind of created an IEP tracker of all of my students When I was in New York City. We had a lot of students in our much larger numbers than in New Jersey. So I was recording 13 students with IEPs, their IEP goals across subject areas, and that's how I would plan, right?
I would bring what I knew they were working on and I would think of strategies that I needed for small group group instruction into my plans. And over time, then when I went into middle school and I had even more classes that I was going between really thinking about, okay, what's working for these students? Maybe in one setting in math that I could share with their ELA teacher or vice versa?
And that idea of a tracker and that's something in bending uses as well, but it's been really helpful. And the teachers I've been coaching with this year around, specially designed instruction, we have the student names, their IEP goals and then any SDi notes that we take. So students teachers might try. Wow, this worked really, really well. I want to remember this for the next lesson, or I want to share this with the Gen-ed teacher.
So whether in science, maybe this is something that is implemented as well.
So I think it's kind of twofold. It's the planning aspect of really what are we targeting in their IEP? What goals are we working on?
And then also how are we sharing this information? Right? That was a document that I shared with all my Gen-ed teachers.
Sara: We were very much on the same page, but this could be shared with related service providers. It could be shared with the other special ed teachers that are working with the students in other settings. And I think having a plan for what we're addressing is really important and one of my teachers that I worked on, this was kind of a yearlong project that we worked on.
They do kids grades K through five, so they had a lot of students, a lot of grade levels, a lot of Gen Z teachers they worked with. And she said she's like, this is really making me more effective because I am targeting and zoning into what the students need and I am providing specialty design instruction. And I can show right, I can show in my lesson where I am doing this.
And it really just started with some organization and kind of taking a step back because once you have all your students, you can also see, oh, these three kids have a similar goal, right? I can maybe have some targeted instruction for them here or these two kids have very different goals. How am I going to make sure I'm addressing these goals, in the context of the classroom?
Sara: But that planning piece is is huge. And it's really where I see a lot of teachers getting excited about like, oh, I can I can do this right? It may take some weeks, but it's not more work. I never want to get more work. It's they're already planning. So now we're just focusing the planning a little more.
Arthur: Yeah. Yeah. Focusing on the specially designed instruction like you said.
Sara: And I always show this video because I think it's. we can follow two questions, right? So Anne Benninghoff asks two questions; what IEP goals that I work on? and what did I do that was special?
So I actually have teachers put that on top of their lesson plans, right?
Because we can we could use two questions. We can do that. And if you can't answer those two questions, you’re not doing specially designed instruction. Yeah. And so I did a case study in the presentation and I said, I pretended I was a kindergarten teacher. I did a little acting and I said, you know, I gave students, this one student with an IEP a prompt to get started, and I made eye contact and I gave her praise and I said, Is that special?
It is targeted to her IEP goal if she's working on school readiness and following directions. But that's not special. Right? And kindergarten Teacher would be doing prompts in verbal praise. So we really had to tease out what would make it special versus just good gen ed practices. Right. And teachers. But they were into that, but sometimes it's kind of on the fence, but they were really being thoughtful. And what would count as specialty design instruction?
Arthur: Yeah, I was going to say it provides a it does it makes you think on an on another level extra. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Because it's like, okay. Like yeah, like I see what I'm doing there, but it could be a step up.
So this next question, it's something that I recently thought about as a way to hopefully provide like start a small resource guide for our listeners and that is what book or article inclusive education related would you recommend for everyone to read or you know, can be a movie, a video or anything?
Sara: I have so many and that's the thing also that's very special about NJCIE, I feel like, is that we're always really encouraged to continue learning. And that's something that's, that's really important to me because things are coming out every day, right?
Every day, something new. And it's important for us to really stay on top of that.
But if I had to pick a few, I might have to give you a few.
Specially Designed Instruction book by Anne Benninghoff. I know I've referenced her a few times. I think it's a really nice practical guide for teachers. I've encouraged a few schools to maybe think about that for a PLC or a book club study because it really does talk about especially design instruction. But then it also goes into that implementation stage.
And I think that's I think that's huge and I think that's what's missing a lot of times when teachers understand SDI but then they're like, okay, but that seems very disconnected to what I'm doing now. So I would say that book is really excellent. There's also a book that's on my list. I started it. I haven't finished all of it yet, but it's it's been really interesting.
It's called Equitable inclusive IEPs for students with complex support needs. That's another really great one. I think, too, sometimes we get into this work on SDI and I hear from teachers like the IEPs aren't helpful to us, right? They're written in such a deficit way or they're written in a way that really just lists all the negative things.
That's really not how we should be writing IEPs, but really from a strength-based approach and really thinking about like this is supposed to be a roadmap to us supporting the student and also highlighting the things that the students are thriving in and really capable of doing. So I really like that book too, because I think it could change how we're seeing IEPs being written.
Sara: And that I think also can change our mindset about inclusion for some schools and districts and also give teachers more support in, okay, if I'm using this IEP to plan, I need to have things that I'm going to be doing. And if it's only deficit-based, that's that's not really helpful as a tool.
So those two books and then you know, we love our Shelley Moore videos, but there's one of my favorite ones that I that I always tell schools to listen to because I think it's so important and really around the mindset of inclusion is the IEPs.
But p e a s like the food.
She says like nowhere on the seed packet. Talking about gardening does it say how the cucumber should become a snap pea. Right. And that is again like we are not, our students are not broken, we are not fixing them, we are giving them the support they need.
And that is such a I feel like everybody can take something away from that. Yes. Admin teachers. CST So that's another that's a, that's one of my favorite ones that she does.
Arthur: Yeah. Thank you. I recently thought about that. And just with all of these episodes where episode 45 I think around there. So I'm just thinking there are a lot of resources that all of our guests have, you know, read and watched and, you know, written themselves.
I thought that that would be a good question to, you know, start sharing some of our knowledge. And like you said, we always like to continue learning. And, it's always great to share what our favorite or favorite things are about inclusive education.
Sara: I think I think that's a great a great place for people to come and find resources and different things.
Arthur: So my last question for you today is, do you have any advice about inclusion that you can offer to those in school leadership positions or just for educators in general?
Sara: Oh, that's a good one. Yes. And this is something I think about a lot in my role. I'm also I just enrolled in a doctoral program as well around educational leadership.
So this is like the topic of all of our conversations in class, too. So I'm I'm pulling information from grad school and also from being in in schools and in district and I think a lot of it really comes down to having a strong leader that really sets the tone about like, what is the culture at our school?
I think we can tell when the culture is like we really do include all students and it's something we believe in versus we're going to just include a few, but it's not something that we put emphasis on or something that we truly believe in.
Sara: I think a clear vision helps staff and teachers and families really know the direction, and I think it sets the tone for really all conversations around learning and curriculum and design.
So I think really just having a leader with a clear vision is really important. I think working on mindset with staff, especially resistant staff, right, because we need to really understand where they're coming from and understand their perspective. If we're going to really change minds, right, if we're going to really make this a shift. And we know that in New Jersey, we have a lot of work to do around this.
So I would say, you know, having a leader that is that is clear and also provides opportunities for their staff to, you know, talk about their feeling, receive the proper training, be able to ask questions. And really for us to be able to get to the bottom and work collaboratively with them around what is their goal for their school.
And we do a lot of writing a vision statement. And I think that's really important because once it's there on paper, right, it's something we can use and reflect on.
That's kind of how we for all of our grant schools where we're looking at creating a vision plan tied to their action plan, and that makes it like, okay, these are the steps we're taking. This is what we believe in as a school. Everyone kind of signs off on it, which is, which is nice.
Sara: I think, again, when the leader is clear on their vision and their mission for inclusive education, it helps the staff to know the direction that we're going.
Arthur: you started your doctoral program and that's how it,
Sara: it’s like my spare time, right? In my spare time that we mentioned,
Arthur: Right? Yeah. Yeah, that's great. But it's been great having this conversation with you and, to share this information about the specially designed instruction and just to, get all of this information and to share it with our listeners, It's been a great conversation with you today.
So thank you for taking the time to, you know, to do this and really I appreciate it. T
Sara: Thank you so much. Arthur, It was a pleasure talking with you again. This is one of my favorite topics. So any time you want to discuss SDI, you know where to find me, right? So I'm going to wrap this up and then but don't leave yet.
Arthur: So, Sara, thank you so much for joining us for this conversation today and enjoy the rest of your day.
Sara: Thank you. Is my pleasure. Thanks, Arthur.
Arthur: Oh, you're welcome.
Arthur: We thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast. This podcast is brought to you by All In for Inclusive Education. Be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or YouTube. Stay tuned for new episodes of the podcast premiering every two weeks.
We're all in. Are you?
On today's episode, I welcome my guest, Fred. Fred is the Chief Executive Officer of New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, which is now All In For Inclusive Education.
In our conversation today, Fred, shares the exciting news about our transition from New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education to All In For Inclusive Education, what that name change means and what you can expect from the organization going forward.
Pamela Donovan, the founder, President, and CEO of the board of Ethan and the Bean, discusses how their organization collaborates with local schools and businesses to create an inclusive work environment outside of the classroom for students with disabilities.
Today I continue my conversation with Anjali, a parent advocate. As we conclude our discussion, Anjali shares what message she would like all educators and school districts to know about autism.
TranscriptArthur: This is the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, where we talk about inclusive education, why it works, and how to make it happen. This is part 1 of my conversation with Anjali. Anjali is a parent of two children who were diagnosed with Autism and Fragile X Syndrome. She shares what their family’s journey has been like working toward inclusion in their school district.
Arthur: I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by the New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. I am back with a brand-new episode. I am your host, Arthur Aston. My guest today is Anjali and I am happy to have you on as a guest today to share your story and your family's story with us for this episode.
Anjali: Sure. Yes,
Arthur: So to get started, can you just share a little bit about yourself and about your family with us?
Anjali: So my name is Anjali, and I live in New Jersey with my husband and two kids. I have a ten-year-old girl and I have a seven-year-old boy.
Both of them are diagnosed with autism and they were recently diagnosed with Fragile X. They go to the public school in Berkeley Heights. And that's so family kind of and what I am afraid to say something about me I have been as a software professional for 14 years. Then I took a break after my little one.
And then I've taken a lot of programs in advocacy and stuff. And then I went to school and graduated in special education. And so right now that is what I have done and I mostly have kind of done volunteering things and all-around inclusion stuff. So that is and that is all about me.
Arthur: That’s awesome. I like for people to share their stories from their perspectives. It's better than any introduction I could ever do, for the guests. So that's why I always try to start off with a version of that question, allowing my guests to share information that they would like to share with everyone.
As you mentioned, your two children have an autism diagnosis and also a Fragile X diagnosis.
Can you talk about the diagnosis that your children received and the difficulty you had with getting the correct diagnosis?
Anjali: Yeah, I think that was the biggest journey for us because getting the diagnosis was not that easy for us. If I had to talk about my daughter, my daughter was not like she was mostly on all her milestones on time, except when it came to speech.
When she was speech delayed, we come from a multilingual family. I speak a different language my husband speaks a different one. And when together, a different one. So just like that, we and my pediatrician always used to say it's a multilingual family, so it's all the language delay was attributed to that. I think the most important thing that when people look for autism, all these diagnoses are the stereotypes.
And she didn't have those things. And so my pediatrician was I don't know, wasn’t worried., or they had less information about a profile like her to have autism. And so we didn't have anything. And even my pediatrician did not tell me anything about early intervention. So I found it from a colleague of mine.
Then we went through that road and meanwhile, I had my little one after that is when my daughter got the diagnosis and then two years down the line, then my son followed the same journey and got this diagnosis. But for him, he had a few more things that were kind of standing out. And like my daughter was just the profile was a little more different.
But the one year there was nothing kind of but so getting the diagnosis was not very easy. Maybe now I could relate to so many things because I said about the Fragile X diagnosis, I could relate some of the things because the fragile X have a very different profile. Maybe that was one reason my daughter was not kind of say they have a lot of autistic traits and sometimes they don't have it.
So it's like a very much different one than fragile X. So but the fragile X diagnosis came very like late. I got the fragile X, They were they had an autism diagnosis for some time and I got the fragile X diagnosis only last year. So we lived with the autism diagnosis for almost four or five years.
I don't know, does it change anything? I would not say not in that huge way. But not knowing this profile would have helped about how the learning things were so always a diagnosis. What I would see as a diagnosis is something to know them a little better so that you can profile them a little more better, then give them the accommodations and you know the learning style and help them through that way.
Anjali: So I felt having the diagnosis a little early would have helped me in those things. But either way, I don't know for me, but maybe for someone else in my daughter’s case. But for my son, I would say there are so many things that I face difficulties and everyone pointed it out to so many autistic stereotypes that was explained well as a medical situation in Fragile X
Anjali: because of something like I would say, there were frequent ear infections and I felt okay my son could see, but still I felt that he had struggling, focusing to read. And that is sometimes explained by a condition called strabismus that is very common in Fragile X.
But when I took my child to doctors with an autism diagnosis, they will always say, Well, this is a stereotype. This is like something that autistic children do. It's everything was kind of, I think, bundled up in that way instead, which explains much because now I have research papers devastating this condition exists.
That condition exists. So there was something that we can narrow down. So I feel there was a lot of so knowing a diagnosis help that in matter. I mean if I got that earlier it would have been better. But going through that medical process also so very difficult. I mean, so I don't know that was the process.
It was quite a process. I would say like getting that one. Even my when my first born, if they have even tested me, we would have known that Fragile X diagnosis. diagnosis. And Fragile X is one genetic noncondition for autism. Knowing those things would have helped and I feel that lack of awareness in those areas about the diagnosis.
Anjali: So it was difficult. If you get to the right people you get that one. But otherwise sometimes it's a journey. And mine was, I would say I always had the people who didn't know about it, but then I met someone at a later point. And so that is where all of our diagnosis journey was.
Arthur: Yes. And I appreciated what you said about, when you have the right diagnosis that leads to receiving the right assistance, the right help and to help out, the children with the diagnosis and the journey that it takes some time to get to the proper diagnosis is quite draining at times, I'm sure, and it's just to stick with it and how things are often grouped together. But, every child is an individual and that is what is, I think, so important to remember that every child is an individual.
And like you said, you would take your children and they would say, oh, that's because of the autism diagnosis. And, and it's like, yes, and maybe not.
Anjali: So you would like people to listen to you a little more because, and I feel like, you know, the friend I like to diagnose, even though it's not something that I wanted, but I say it gives a little more answers.
But then I feel okay when that autism spectrum is too wide. Like, I think some of the people might not get the right answers because it is like too big to kind of narrow down some of those things.
Arthur: So yes, So I would like to switch the conversation just a little bit and talk about inclusion and how you view inclusion and what your experience has been, with having your children included in the classroom.
And why do you feel it is important?
Anjali: So I would say, I will tell you, I think that inclusion part thing is a more matter down into what my personality is kind of. If you asked me to introduce myself I find I find it always struggling to say what pieces to say so in an inclusion that I think I would say that.
So for me, even before receiving any diagnosis or not knowing that my children are different in their own ways, inclusion was very important for me. I didn't know the benefit of it. I would be very honest. Like now I know the benefit of it and I very research base boy and then so many other things.
But at that point when initially the first place where I decided that inclusion part, I didn't know the benefit of it, I just felt that I needed that inclusion because I did not feel that my children should be separated in any means from their peers.
Anjali: So for my daughter, I would just kind of see as a story storyline for that that this like my daughter, she was having early intervention.
Then she went to school and she was in an inclusion classroom at that time in a pre-K inclusion classroom. And I liked it for that part at that point because we only have an IEP and for people an IEP, is an Individualized Education Plan. And what it was not at that point, she didn't have a diagnosis, so it was all well and good. We were in a regular classroom. We received all the extra support and stuff.
Everything changed the moment we received a diagnosis that when we got the diagnosis of autism from the day, the previous day to the next day, what happened in the IEP meeting was that they decided this class is no more right for my child something that I was not prepared for.
I have heard stories, but I didn't know anything when that first meeting. I still know that how ignorant I was about the system and how it works kind of thing. And when my child was asked to move to a classroom, she was three, four years at that point. And it was so difficult for me.
And only difference was I always tell anyone I said that the only difference was getting a diagnosis. And that time they said, okay, your kid would do better over here. So there is a lot of discussion that happened that something that was right for my child changed overnight like the educational situation changed. Like they cannot learn any more in this class.
Anjali: Everything just changed with that. And I remembered some of the things that I always looked at. A lot of that is what is in now code seeing that, okay, the use of supplemental like, you know, aid and services kind of a thing. And I remember taking my code book, I like it a friend of my administrative code book and talking to them that, hey, we can do all these things.
But I would say that at that time I didn't know. Well, to explain that much, but I know that this could exist. But at that time, the conversation didn't go well. It was all everyone making me believe that this is not right anymore.
Anjali: And at that point, inclusion was very important for me because I felt if she is a child who talks less does not have that language, why would you put her in another place and where everyone is learning to speak or talk, Why would you put them in an environment there, and not among the people who have more like language and stuff from them so that they can learn.
So it was like a different the body kind of say that that logical sense of you doesn't accept that part. That doesn't make sense to me. Whatever you're talking. Look it maybe other than your experience of it, but nothing makes sense to me.
So for me, that inclusion, that benefit of inclusion, what I was thinking is you always have appropriate peers to learn from. You always have a situation, and also your comparison of learning. We all say everything is relative. So for you, it is related to what everyone else is learning. Maybe your pace is different and I was okay to accept.
Not being unrealistic, but it was okay if my child learns a little slower. I was okay with that, but I just didn't feel well. I will still not be teaching them the same things. Why would you kind of think that is? A separate classroom would work. So for me, inclusion was important like to me because I was always seeing things through how, oh, the reality of our world is like.
If I'm if I'm considering myself as a person with without disability and how would my reality be that I am in the real world doing stuff and kind of doing them? Why would my child not able to do that? Or why would my child be not taught to do that? So for me it was just experience that you need to experience the same things, even though your experience feels different.
And that is how every one of us that even though if we are with disability, without disabilities, our experience is different.
Anjali: So I for me that inclusion, that is one reason why that inclusion was so important, because that was closest that you are going to be to real reality, your real life, what we call it, or our real experiences, what we call it. So and what I see is benefits is like what all of us think of like that's the same even my child.
Children with disability or without disability, this is what I would kind of want them to be independent, get a job, and do their own stuff. And if you have to navigate all those things, you have to have that experience of it, not in a separate place. Because if you have all of those separate experiences, how will you bring it together?
So, those are the things I had, I feel is common sense, that those are the things that you see as benefits. You don't have to have research or you don't have to have like, you know, people writing papers about it. It's just common sense that this is the normal experience that people should be having. So I think that is what I want.
And now I would say as a fear of a parent, I like as a spirit because I have two children with disabilities, that is, when I'm not around, they should be able to navigate. And I feel if they're not included, I don't think they will know how to navigate. So these are all benefits and I think they overweigh everything that people think of so that is why inclusion is very important for me.
Arthur: I loved what you said and I was holding on until you were finished to respond,
Anjali: I could talk a lot about inclusion.
Arthur: It was so great though. I love what you said that we have. They should have the same experiences although our experiences are different. Oh gosh, that was so good. I enjoyed that. We have to, and I love the thought that you said about, you know, for a child that is, not expressing themselves, with language, why wouldn't you put them in a class in a position where they could possibly learn more language from their peers?
I was like, oh, my gosh, that's so true. And something I never thought of in that way. That was like so well said. I really appreciated breaking it down in the way that you did. That was that was that was great. I was like, yes, that was so good.
So important to mention. And again, like all parents, you want those same things for your children and like you said, for them to when you're not around, for them to still be able to navigate and, experience the world and things around them when you're not around, that's the wish for every parent and for every person.
I think that our children and our loved ones can experience the world and get around in a world even if we're not around that. So well said.
Anjali: This is just so kind of to add to that. The first place kids, everyone sees each other is in school system Like they see that in the school. They are young. They understand, and they grow with that. They are kids. Then we become adults. And it's like that is that cycle of life. So I feel that younger kids, they should see they should know this is how to be. That is, with disabilities or without. People without disabilities should see them to see how different they are or how different they think.
And we are all different in our own ways. So I feel it grows together like be kind of that is what we are. A society like that we have to kind of that neurodiversity should be there kind of and if we are not seeing them as adults.
I have still people who don't know how to respond when we talk, when I talk about disability of my kids, that is because that is not the norm. People become uncomfortable and I feel that we if we normalize those conversations, it will become normal like it is playing. And I always bring that common sense. And it that is that is what is the importance of inclusion that we feel that it is normal to be different.
Arthur: Yes, it is. And as you said, we're all different. We all have different experiences. And the earlier that we can experience those differences, it makes it better for, as you said, when the children grow up to be teenagers, when they grow up to be adults living out in the real world on their own and their places of employment and college and,, beyond. The earlier we can make this happen and the earlier that the younger children can, you know, can experience diversity and differences, the better the world will be.
I'm so glad you took the time to really break it down that she did. That was really, really impressive. I really appreciated that.
Arthur: So, what are some important messages you would like to send to teachers and to school districts in general about children with an autism diagnosis?
Arthur: This concludes part 1 of my conversation with Anjali. Join us again in two weeks when our conversation continues and Anjali shares advice for school districts on how to effectively include students with an autism diagnosis. Be sure to subscribe on Youtube, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts, and don’t forget to follow us on social media At NJCIE. Until next time.
Arthur continues his conversation with Arvin. Arvin shares how he can adapt his dance classes to be accessible and inclusive for his disabled students.
On today’s episode, I welcome my guest Arvin Arjona, a fine arts teacher of dance. This is part one of our conversation where Arvin shares what inclusive education means to him, and the benefit that inclusive education can have on all students.
On today’s episode, I welcome Vikas back for part 2 of our conversation. Vikas is a parent advocate, and as we continue our conversation Vikas shares what advice he has for schools and for parents who are on this inclusive education Journey.
This is Part 1 of my conversation with Vikas, a parent advocate who shares his family’s story of working toward inclusion in his daughter’s school district.
This is part two of Arthur's conversation with Maureen from IncludeNJ and a parent who is advocating for her child to be included in the classroom. Listen to find out what advice our guest has for districts and other parents who are working toward a more inclusive environment for their students.
TranscriptArthur: This is the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, where we talk about inclusive education, why it works, and how to make it happen. Join me today as I welcome Maureen from IncludeNJ and a parent advocate who shares her family’s experience of what inclusive education looks like in two different states where they have lived.
Arthur: I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. I am your host, Arthur Aston. And today I am joined by my co-host today, Maureen from Include NJ. And our guest today is a parent of a child who receives special education services, who will be sharing their family's experience of fighting for inclusive education.
So thank you both for joining me today for this episode.
Parent: Thanks for having me.
Arthur: So to begin our conversation, your family has had two very unique experiences with school districts related to inclusive education. Can you share what those two experiences were like for your family?
Parent: Yeah. Our Family’s had the experience of a public education system into different states where the approach towards Neurodivergent children with IEPs and their education in school environments couldn't be more different.
I would say that our perspective on inclusion in our current district in New Jersey has really deteriorated over the last year. As I explained to Maureen when I first reached out to IncludeNJ about the special services in our district. A lot of things here made me feel very uneasy and I had come from a district where my child got everything they needed and was very included to a place where the first thing they wanted to do was separate and segregate them in a separate classroom, separate hallway, separate everything.
And the moment we came here from that district, it was really interesting because the two were so different. We never knew how good it was, in our other district, in our other state, from where we moved, because we never heard words like inclusion and Gen-Ed and everything was fine. And we had been used to the whole special education environment, special services and having an IEP.
I'd even know how the whole thing went, even what an IEP was when we had actually started this journey and I didn't realize how much how much we had to pay attention to it. And when we were in our other state, I never really had to think twice about it. My child was in an integrated classroom, and any modifications or accommodations, any support happened within the classroom.
It looked great. It was wonderful. I didn't think twice about it. I didn't have to. And then when we moved back to New Jersey, the first thing that happened, like as I mentioned, was they suggested separating my child. So our first IEP meeting, I felt very kind of dismissed. And my concerns about why are you trying to separate my child when you come from an integrated setting for the last year?
And they convinced us it was going to be really supporting to look get all the services. They sold it to us, and it hasn't been the greatest experience for us. And just to be honest, I have just felt here versus there just very almost as a separate community of people.
Parent: I didn't even know what their classroom looked like until we got to have a meet and greet when at the start of this year.
And it just broke my heart because it was a completely different environment than what we had just come from. It was small. If the tables were all separated from each other, there was very little social interaction for the kids. And it just broke my heart to kind of see that they were not getting the experience of school and the social aspect of it and the academic aspect of it, for that matter.
So it was just very, very, very different experience and not a positive one here.
Maureen: And one of the things that that that kind of spoke to my heart when I first talked to this mom about inclusion was that she was explaining how her child in the other school was out on the playground playing with all the other kids, had friends, was part of the community.
And when she came to this new district, she went to the playground and her child was kind of standing alone, and didn't know anybody. And the other thing that was really kind of appalling to me was that the children with IEPs the segregation was so much that to the point where they came in separate doors, their classrooms were all in a separate hallway.
So they were in a public school building, but they were in a separate hallway. And one of the things that her child did, which I thought was really cool, was asked the teacher if I could go eat lunch with all the other kids, meaning go into the cafeteria and eat lunch with the kids. And so as this story kind of unfolded, I just felt that, child deserved the same things that he had been afforded in the other state.
IncludeNJ came into the picture and said, we're going to make this work. We're going to make this work, we're going to make this happen. And that was just really important to me on a professional level, but also, quite honestly, on an emotional level.
Parent: Yeah. I also want to add that it was just so nice watch them kind of playing in the playground and being happy and then coming here and just kind of witnessing this kind of change in the demeanor of like, you know, coming home from school, being frustrated.
And I never really understood what was going on, where these were things that didn't even cross my mind in our other state. And one of the things like when my child got their diagnosis, I remember going into the classroom super, the teacher in our other state, and I said, Oh my God, what changes? What changes? Day to day activities?
I'm just worried about this. And she looked at me and said, Nothing. Nothing changes. Everything in the classroom is already modified or accommodated. And the only thing that really changes is a little word on IEP, and that's it. And tomorrow we just continue as we've been going.
Parent: And the other thing, when we had our meetings that I didn't think of at the time, we would meet in the classroom, all the team, the therapist, the case manager would meet in the classroom, they'd look around and say, This is what the kids have been doing.
This is what your child does. And it was just very informal and calming. And as a parent who worries about their child, especially if you get a diagnosis of any kind of neurodivergent, anything neuro neurodivergent diagnosis of any sort, you already worry, right? Like, how is this going to separate my child or how is this going to separate my child from their just from experiencing things?
And they're they just created this atmosphere of just like you're just part of this and this is what we do here and we're here. It was very I don't know if this is in our districts, of course, but like here, it was just very we're in a conference room. We're standing there and we're sitting there and they're just talking about your child and a lot of jargon and terms you don't understand.
And as a parent, if you're not educated and all of this and you know, this is the first time coming around and being like, oh my gosh, and IEP, will have to do special services. You're already worried about everything. From how different, how different are they going to be to the other children? Is this is going to highlight their differences even further, and you don't really know what's going on in the kind of community of like, oh, this is going to be good for your kid.
It's going to be good for your kids. Doesn't even feel like a like a conversation, like a back and forth. Like you're just kind of like dismissed because they just do what they do with all of these kids. They just seem to lump them over in this classroom over here. It doesn't matter what their individual needs are. And I mean, just I don't feel relaxed here I feel stressed all the time here where I didn't even think of these things in my other state.
in our other state where we live. Right. These are things that didn't even cross my mind. So, I mean, the difference was very like just day and night there.
Arthur: There was so much of what you said there that, you know, really caught my attention. And Maureen, I'm really happy that you're here for this conversation as well.
The segregation part that you mentioned where like everything was just totally separate and the last part of toward what you were saying about, you know, the language that is being used. And if you're a parent who is not familiar with that, and that's where, I'm glad that you your family connected with IncludeNJ because they can, help with assisting you through all of this and, help you understand better because a lot of times, like you said, if it's your first experience, with this inclusive education and you don't know the right words and all the words that are being said to you.
Arthur: So it’s really, really great that you're connected with include and to have through all of all of this process and this journey that you're on now with your family.
Arthur: So the next question I have is why do you feel that inclusive education is important and beneficial for not just students with disabilities, but for all students?
Parent: This I feel really strongly about and this is what gets me to like, so passionate about this because I feel like in our current district, the segregated environment from the Gen-ED children feels like, like I mentioned before, we're a separate community. And it begs the question, how does the how do the Gen-Ed kids learn and understand children who are different in some way, Right?
I mean, everybody's different, so we should start there. But if your child is neurodivergent, how if you don't start young, especially, this is coming from my background as I used to teach little kids tennis and I really like teaching kids between like the six and nine years of age. They were very innocent and accepting younger as well.
But I just like that I could actually teach proper things as opposed to super basic things for younger, younger kids. But the younger they were, the more accepting they were. They didn't have preconceived notions about things right. What's normal, what's not normal, what's typical, what's not typical? I always think of this example of like, if young toddler saw somebody all of a sudden float in the air and go away, they would probably be like, This is great.
Where everyone else would be like, Oh my gosh, nobody does that. Why are you, like, floating, right? Because to them they have no notion of what is typical. So to me, the earlier you introduce children with differences, the earlier you start educating and producing, i don’t know the word, maybe not producing, but the sooner you do it, the more you're going to have these kind of children that are growing up to become more open-minded teenagers, adults.
And on top of that, if social behaviors are so integral to daily life of any neurodiverse child or person, why aren't these children in a setting that models what is considered typical behavior and then vice versa? Why aren't Gen-Ed kids learning to understand neurodivergent behaviors?
Parent: To me, learning is understanding, and understanding leads to this kind of acceptance. And we believe this environment.
My husband and I believe that this kind of environment only furthers the divide in the long run for my child project. And I think that we need to provide the experience and tools for neurodivergent and or typical children to navigate the real world where they're not sheltered from the differences of others. And the sooner we do that, the better for everyone.
And ultimately this just feels and this is totally my personal life, like a breeding ground for bullying because these differences, if they aren't highlighted early enough, it just creates this chasm between children who are different or, those kids, those kids that enter through that door or those kids that take the shortcut or whatever it is that kids will say about each other, it just creating this divide that we could be working on so early.
My child is pretty young. They're five. And I'm already worried that this divide has grown even in the past year just because of being here and how worried and described how I talked about going out to the playground. And it's like, why create the divide when there's always going to be a divide? We're always going to feel the differences whether we want to or not.
We are already worried about our kids all the time. And this kind of environment does nobody any favors.
Maureen: And yes, I think I think one of the other things that that we always talk about is that there when kids graduate from high school, there's no special ed world. There is the world. And I think that we have to start at a really young age, teaching kids about diversity, teaching kids about acceptance and what's the best way to do that.
It's not sitting and lecturing them and talking to them about it. It's showing them. It's showing them that we're all different. We all have, different attributes. And learning to accept those attributes is just a such a critical thing for especially the younger kids to learn and grow up with.
Arthur: That’s so true. Maureen, I've met you before, but I didn't share with you that I also have a disability.
So, I was born with spina bifida. I use a wheelchair and crutches and braces to walk. But I've shared it on this podcast before. I love that my friends allow me to spend time with their children from their earliest days through now that some of them are nine and ten years old. So it's no big deal that I have to use a wheelchair.
The first time, usually I'll I'll use my crutches if I go to their house. But if we go out in public, I use a wheelchair because it's easier for me to get around. So sometimes the child might be like, okay, like that's different. I don't know what that is, but like you said, you have to show them the experience and just talk them through it.
Arthur: It’s a wheelchair, nothing's wrong. I'm fine. I'm the same person. I just have to use it because it's easier for me to walk long distances. You know, we're walking in the mall or out in the in the city or at the zoo or whatever. And it's, it's just it's no big deal to them.
And again, after like you said, after high school, there's no you know, there's no separate worlds. It's just the world. And we're all, you know, out here together.
So the earlier we can share these experiences of differences and diversity with children, it's definitely more beneficial for them as they continue to go through school and then as they get older and go out into the real world and, they're more aware of things and you know, and aware of people and their differences that exist in the world around them.
Arthur: So, it's really, really important to start this whole thing early of inclusion and, you know, educating about differences. I think that's so important to mention.
Parent: Yeah. And one of the things that we were told actually some of our meetings was, your child is not always necessarily be in the separate classroom. We're working towards including them, working towards integrating them.
And to me it's how are you working towards that if they're not present around the typical behavior that is expected of them in the Gen-Ed class or wherever, they're not even aware of what is expected of them. And then they use an example like, Oh, well, we put them in this integrated class and they didn't do too well.
And I'm thinking, well, if you keep segregating it to separate their expectations with what the expectation is of them is so like they have no idea, and to me as a child, as children get older, they just become more self-conscious about their own differences, whatever they may be. Neurotypical at every minute, you're going to feel differences.
And I feel like I hear from other parents, as they get as they're getting older, they're going to incorporate them more in the genetic environment. And I'm thinking, well, when all of these kids are so self-conscious about themselves and this is kind of what leads to that kind of bullying that I'm thinking of, where children will point out differences of other people to almost like deflect off of their own discomfort with themselves or their self-consciousness.
And why? Why put a neurodivergent child in that same line of fire at these older ages when the kids,, are they're trying to deflect attention off of themselves? That doesn't help anyone either. It certainly doesn't help. The Neurodivergent child is only going to feel uncomfortable with the settings moving forward, but also the neurotypical children will always kind of just see them as them.
Parent: It will be like he or she is a peer of mine and this is just this is how they do things. This is normal for them, right? To me, it's just this whole excuse of waiting until they're ready. It doesn't sit well with me.
Maureen: Yeah, that's ready or not. Here we come. That's what I say. That's my motto.
Arthur: That was good. That was funny. So we've shared already that you have been working with Maureen and the team there at IncludeNJ, can you share how working with include MJ has been beneficial for your family?
Parent: Well specifically for me it well Maureen, Monica, they really just showed me that my concerns for inclusion here were justified, that when I was being told all of this to the meeting at meetings with the schools or the IEP meetings, where I honestly kind of felt like I didn't know what was going on and I shouldn't feel that way, they agreed with me, too. Like, yes, you should know that if you're in a meeting as a parent and you're being included in it, you should know the words and the jargon, what they mean. They should be explained when they're talking to you. You should feel included in your school community. You shouldn't feel this sort of separateness, this kind of segregation.
Your children treat your child can be like highlighting this way. And I know it just kind of justified. All right. But it's not just me in my head that thinks that.
Maureen: Can I just say something? When we talk about inclusion and we see this with lots of parents, it's not just about the inclusion or exclusion of their child, but,
So where do parents, where does the parent community come from? The parent’s own community. And typically it comes from schools in,, in the PTO’s and in all the school activities and all of those other things. So if a parent if parents of children who have IEPs are also not included, they're not part of the school culture, the school community, I think that,, a lot of parents feel disenfranchised from the school.
And so where is their community? And I think that's a really important thing that parents need to understand, is that it's not just your child being separated, but It's you as a parent who's being separated from the school community and and and that that's that's just not right.
Arthur: My next question is what have been some challenges that you have faced when working for inclusion for your child?
I was kind of made that point where I was justified in how I felt. But I agree because it didn't feel this way from our other state. But here just the fact that, I'm watching all of these parents all talking to each other and the kids, they're kind of interacting. And I'm thinking like, if my child keeps getting like separate, like kids being treated like separately, they don't know they're peers.
It just starts from the classroom, right? Like, this is where they meet each other. This is where their friendships grow, their groups grow. This leads to what activities? After school, setting up playdates, parents getting to know each other, parents doing things together. Like Maureen mentioned the PTO of the community. And honestly, like here, I have just felt as a lone parent standing there waiting for my kid at the separate entrance exits.
And, half the time it's like some kind of aide helps block out my child who has shown them that they can actually do this on their own. So me, it's like, well, this is like the normal this is supposed to be some kind of excuse me, this is like not normal, but like, this is what a typical behavior should be anyway.
If they can walk themselves on a door, why are they walking out this door or why I don't know if that makes any sense, but it's just, so separate, and then it comes out. I can't even find out what they did during the day because I have to talk to the teacher. And then we just go and there's really no one I can relate to because I honestly feel like these other parents that are around me might feel the same way, a little lost and just also confused as to what's happening because, your child goes to the school, but the activities don't seem like catered to you or you just kind of feel separate. And even when it comes to planning things and, you know, or planning events or activities, when they do consider the children that are neurodivergent or whatever they may be right of their ADHD are on the spectrum. It's constantly like they are reaching out to us as their parents to say like, it's nice, there's like kind of an approach.
There's an attempt at an approach to try to make this more inclusive, and yet we get called out on it all the time, where I feel like as an explanation to that in our other state headphones would be provided for our kids that they needed or don't need it, and this was provided for everyone. A separate area, a walking path, a sensory path was there for kids that just needed a body break.
Parent: This wasn't kind of directed at anyone, but it was just directed at everyone, right? So instead of sitting and making meetings about what can we do to make this easier for your child, why don't we just create that environment for any kid that uses you know what I mean? Let's say there's an activity after school and it might be loud, it could be some kind of, I don't know, pizza, afternoon playground and stuff.
Why is it like, let's highlight this classroom for those children if they need a quiet space, Like it'd just be the quiet space for any kid that might need a quiet space? Why can't their headphones, noise-canceling headphones be They're good for a child if they need them. And even this here, this effort at trying to be inclusive still makes me, as a parent feel separate still. Even as they try to bring us in, I just feel like they're still creating like this a separate community of people to still exist.
Maureen: I think one of the things that was that was great was when we when we first got the when we first got the referral, when we first got the call, it was just such a refreshing she was so refreshing to work with because she was a parent who came knowing having her child had been included, knowing what it looked like, and she came knowing what she wanted.
So for us at IncludeNJ, It was easier for us to work with with her and her district to make that a reality for her child, so that her child was no longer in a separate, self-contained class, moved into the gender class. And it took it took meetings. It took a lot of work.
It took a lot of determination. But, we had a parent who strongly believed in this and really wanted it. So it has just been a pleasure working with her family and, just seeing her child now be included and just knowing that. I always say this is not the end point.
Maureen: This is the journey that we're on. And, it's we still have a lot of tweaking to do. But I think the thing that I'm most proud of is that we were able to help move from a separate, self-contained class into a gender class with the appropriate supports and accommodations and all of the services that her child needs.
So, to me, through IncludeNJ has just been just such an A-plus. She’s like my best friend now. My IncludeNJ mother, my poster child.
Arthur: And I think, Maureen, I think what you said there was very important about it being a journey of, you're on a journey and it takes time.
Unfortunately, like a lot of things, it takes time and to have the connection and to be connected with you all there at IncludeNJ is you know I'm sure it's very helpful and you know I'm happy to hear that you’re working and it's a journey that continues so, I'm glad that we are having this conversation today.
Parent: But one thing I will definitely add is that all of this obviously is very challenging, but when you're when it feels like you're fighting for inclusion for your child, make a kind of a difference in the community or make a difference in how people see this in your community, You need other parents of other neurodivergent children or neurotypical children on board with you as well.
I find a little bit of the challenge, another little challenge, very little kind of a vision that I feel like I'm facing is when I speak to other parents. I have had parents say, Oh, this is the inclusion. Girls are very inclusive. They integrate everything. And it just boggles my mind that they think that this is what inclusive looks like because I you know, I know what it looks like.
You know, I came from what that looks like to a place where the littlest accommodation for our children is made and all of a sudden it's being praised as this inclusive environment when it really isn't. If we're parents who have neurodivergent children who need a lot of support. Right. I think a lot of the services and just the education that is provided in this particular district, there's a lot of these services provided.
Parent: So I think we're so grateful for that help that they don't even stop To think that their child is segregated, is separate, and they're not in the environment and it doesn't do their child any favors. When I talk to some of these parents who think that this is so great, they have all the services they need, I struggle with the parents who don't understand how important it is to get their children into the neurotypical.
I’m using neurotypical in this case, but the genetic environment is seen as possible. You know, I'm so grateful for every little thing that they don't understand the social aspect and how important it is in the long run. So I find that a little bit challenging, too, with the parents that think this is okay.
Arthur: You know, it's interesting how people view inclusion and different, you know, in different ways and what it means to them and based off of your previous experience and the previous school district and what you're experiencing now, it’s two totally different things.
And for the parents you may be talking to, this may be their only experience of what it inclusion is. So this is they have nothing else to compare it to like you do.
Parent: Yeah. And they don't they don't have the experience of it. And I don't want to sound like, oh I know it all. I really don't.
I didn't know that that was the experience I was having when I was having it. When I moved here, when we moved back here, it was really like highlighted to me how great it was before, because I didn’t have to think about it, and I'm here and it's like, if we want to fight for some kind of change in inclusion for our children, we need the support of those parents.
So that's a little frustrating because, I talk to parents, I don't exist to kind of like change their minds only. But I wish they could experience what we experienced. So they would know what it could be, how much better it could be, or at least what I think is better.
Arthur: Yes. So the last question I have, it's kind of a two-part question, and that is what advice would you offer to districts and what advice would you offer to parents who are seeking to have a more inclusive school environment?
This concludes part 1 of my conversation with our guests. Join us again in two weeks when we find out what advice our parent advocate has for districts and for other parents who are working toward an inclusive school environment for their students. In the meantime, be sure to catch up on all previous episodes of the podcast on our website www.njcie.org/podcast, and to follow us on social media @NJCIE. Until next time.
Transcript Arthur: This is the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast, brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, where we talk about inclusive education, why it works, and how to make it happen. On Today’s Episode, I welcome my guest Lauren Tyndrof. Lauren is an Inclusion Facilitator with NJCIE. Today, we talk about how physical education classes can be adapted to include all students, including those students with disabilities.
Arthur: I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast. I'm your host, Arthur Aston, and I am excited to welcome my guest on today's podcast, Lauren Tyndorf.
So, Lauren, thank you for joining me today.
Lauren: Thank you so much for having me. I am super excited to be a part of this.
Arthur: Yes. So to start off the podcast, I always ask a form of this question, and that is for my guests to share a little bit about themselves with us. So can you share, things you like to do for fun a little bit about your educational background and, all those kinds of things?
Lauren: Of course. So I received my undergrad degree in health and physical education. I was a high school health and P. E. teacher for about five years. I started as adapted B and then we got it into an inclusive P.E. program. I received my Masters in Motor Learning and Control, and I did my thesis on children with cerebral palsy and the connections that can be remade between the brain and their affected hands.
And then I received my doctorate in curriculum and teaching and phys. ed., with a focus on how students with disabilities perceive inclusive physical education. So really trying to see if there's a disconnect between how students with disabilities experience physical education to help improve our teaching practices. I've worked for Special Olympics for a number of years. I volunteered. I have always wanted to, and I've always loved working with teachers on creating these inclusive environments so that we can have all of our students succeed.
Things that I like to do for fun, oh that’s a tough one, I don't know how much time I have on the side, and I do enjoy reading. I love reading books. I love watching true crime. That's probably the biggest thing that I do in my free time. And then spending a lot of time with my rescue dog. She's taking a lot of work out of me. So working with her.
Arthur: Great! Yes. I also enjoy reading. It's so interesting. I moved recently and I have a huge bookshelf and my friends who are helping me move, they said, Have you read all of these books? I said, Yeah, at one point or another. Yeah, I did. So, it's really great that you like to read and you have a rescue dog.
I appreciate what you said about working with the teachers to make the inclusive environment work for everybody. That is. I say it a lot in this podcast, but that is something that a lot of people bring up, who I have as guests on the podcast. They talk about collaborating and making sure that everybody is involved and everybody is on the same page about the inclusion and what it is that you want to see happen in that school environment. So that's great, that you mention that as well.
Arthur: So the next question I have for you is how would you define inclusive education?
Lauren: So I would define inclusive education as looking in our classrooms that all students of all ability levels, disabilities, lower skills, higher skills, everybody is working together for the common goal. So whatever our lessons are trying to focus on, but really including every every student, every body inside of our classrooms so that all of our students can succeed.
As teachers, we are teaching all students. There is not we're not focused on one group. We are focused on educating all of our students. So if we can really create these environments where all students are together and we can provide the modifications that we may need or different changes to rules, whatever it can be, so that all of our students can be successful, learn in the same environment together.
Arthur: That’s great. You're like you said, you're educating everybody. That's the that's the key thing. It's not a separate thing, for students with disabilities over here and everybody else over there. Yeah. So that's that's really awesome that you mentioned that.
And as a follow up question to that, was there a particular something that happened in your life that made you interested in the world of inclusive education? How did you choose this path?
Lauren: Yeah, so that's a loaded question. I feel like I've my career path has changed so many times that when I started out teaching, I didn't have a background of working with kids with disabilities in my family. I don't have anybody who has a disability. I wasn't around them. And throughout my student teaching experiences, I really started to find my passion working with kids with disabilities and learning and seeing the milestones be accomplished and getting through challenging tasks and life was giving me all these opportunities when I went for my master's and my advisor was a big researcher in the field with cerebral palsy.
So he took me under his wing and I got to learn all the intricacies that he had known and the knowledge. And then when I started teaching, I did not feel as prepared, looking back as I should have been to working with kids with disabilities. So it was a lot of me doing research and sometimes it was a total failure on my end as a teacher with different things that I was trying to do.
But I didn't want my kids by themselves. I knew that they should not be. Why are my kids disabilities not included for sports? Sport is sport. And that was kind of where I started to change where my path was going to be and really focus on inclusive education and working with teachers that I didn't feel that teachers always felt prepared to work with kids with disabilities in the gym setting.
Lauren: that’s why my doctorate had changed for what I initially wanted to do with the focus on curriculum and in our curriculum and teaching, and with that focus on inclusive education so that I had the knowledge for curriculums. And how can we write curriculums, how can we develop curriculums and how can we work with teachers to say, Hey, kids with disabilities are supposed to be in the gym and working together with their peers?
Sport is sport and I will continue to work and help teachers at whatever facet they need to really promote inclusive education because it is so important and vital. We know what the benefits are. Being in the realm of inclusive education. So trying to get everybody else to understand that and so that they can see the differences that it does make in everybody's educational background and just in life in general.
Arthur: I’m enjoying this conversation so much because I when as soon as we were talking about like topics that we could talk about and you mentioned the physical education part and your background in physical education, and I immediately thought about myself as a wheelchair user all through my time in high school, the physical education teachers were always looking for ways to make sure I was included.
And being that I use a manual wheelchair, I pushed myself, you know, on the nice days, everybody had to do a mile out on the school track, and the physical education teacher looked at me and said, and you will too. You may not get a mile done. You don't have you can't physically run it, but you will go around as many times as you can in this time that we have with everybody else.
And then they would eventually say, well, we'll give you one or two friends that can go with you. So that was the big thing with everybody. Oh, I want to walk with Arthur! So they didn’t have to run it! So that was the really big thing. But just again, going back to, like you said, with the collaboration of how everybody just works together to make it happen to come together and just have, everybody included.
Arthur: And I graduated many years ago. And to think that maybe the conversation of inclusion wasn't like a really big thing then, but it's like they were they were doing it without knowing it probably at that time to say, okay, he can physically do certain things. So we're going to have him included in this gym class.
Thankfully I wasn't part of the dodgeball games or anything like that, but they did have me doing quite a bit of things, from the physical education classes. But I can remember.
Lauren: yeah, it's interesting. I had as I was doing my research on my dissertation, it was really understanding perspective. So I never had mentioned a disability. It was if the students brought it up, then we could talk about it, but if not, as an outsider and really trying to understand their perceptions, I didn't want to bring up a disability.
I wanted to see if they related to it that they identify with having one. What was the situation? Because I, as an able bodied person, I can see things, I see things differently than what my students were doing.
One of the things that had come up and when you had mentioned the wheelchair, it always resonates. I had one of the students who was involved in their warm up games that were outside on the turf, and for a portion of the game he would play, but then he would come and he would be on the sidelines and he would sit next to me and we would talk.
And I had asked him if he wanted to keep playing or why did he play for a little bit and sit on the side. And it had come out that the turf was so hard for him to move himself around, and it was for me as I was no longer teaching at the time, but it was, oh my goodness, I always thought as a teacher I was doing the best thing, and we're going outside and we're going on the turf.
Lauren: We’re taking advantage of the beautiful days. And then when he had said that the wheelchair was harder to roll on the turf, I was like, I never even thought about that. And then it even more started to get me into like, what are the what else can I do? Because I didn't think about things. And it was to me, it was a huge learning mode where it was, okay, we have more that we need to get out of our students with disabilities and their perceptions to see what they really need from me and what do they need from the rest of their teachers to help them.
Arthur: Wow, That is that's so interesting because it's,, like you said, you're thinking you're doing the best thing that's possible. And it's like, well, actually, like this is kind of hard.
Lauren: Yeah, yeah, I love learning from my students. Like you had your experience and you enjoyed doing that. I welcome all those perceptions and hearing it from the individual who are living in this moment.
Arthur: Yes. And again, it goes back to what we were saying before about the collaboration and involving everybody, including the students in these conversations, because they they have a voice. And like you said, their lived experience is the best education for everybody. It's the best learning experience for everybody to to hear from them themselves who are actually living, you know, the disabled experience.
And they can share what it is that they need, you know, to make it better for them and make it more inclusive for them so that that's great.
Arthur: So we've been talking about it, this whole conversation. But your dissertation, like you said, was on the perceptions of students with disabilities, in inclusive physical education settings, can you share with us because I off the top of my head, you're the first person that has a physical education background that I've had on the podcast to talk about this.
So which again, it's so important that children all the children in the class are included in physical education, including those with disabilities. So can you share what some of the modifications that physical education teachers can make to their classroom, to their class experiences, so that they are more inclusive for everyone?
Lauren: Yeah, absolutely. So I think first and foremost is equipment.
There's so much equipment that is out there. And I if I can find different ways to use standard equipment, I'm going to do that. So there's no reason to say that I can't use beach balls when we're playing handball or using beach balls for soccer or basketball. So changing just what piece of equipment you're using in your inclusive classes can really help the game for all students.
So a lighter ball is going to move a little bit slower or you can deflate a soccer ball if you don't have the slow roller soccer balls that exists. There's different pieces of equipment that have bells in them. So students who have visual impairments or need another focus, a different type of sensory item has a basket of oh my goodness, has a bell inside of it. So it can draw more attention to it.
Lauren: So equipment first and foremost, I think is huge to help create these more inclusive classrooms. The second is rules of the game. I have always said that I have. Am I going to have somebody come into my gym from the NBA watching to see if I'm playing basketball by what the NBA rules are?
And I then I laugh even more because they double dribble and they travel in the NBA. That doesn't get called. So and my kids are double dribbling and traveling. That's fine. So creating your own rules. And that's where I really would talk to my students about what modifications work for them. So I had when I taught and I had a student who was a wheelchair user, I had asked him because dribbling for him is going to look very different than how my students are who are running and walking.
So I asked them, I said, What modification do you want to do? So he said, I want to put the basketball on my lap and I want 3 seconds before a defense can get on me. I said, okay, let's do it. So we did. And the class was started to count down from three. So they got to the end.
So it was you got this sense he was building a self-esteem. Everybody was excited. So I was able to change the rules for what were for my individual students to make the class more fun and beneficial for them. And I think that just leads into a third point in just talking with your students. I can create modifications that I think work or that I have used that had words.
But students with disabilities also know they know what they can do and how they may be able to manipulate an object in a way that I haven't even thought of. Or they may create a modification that actually is way better than anything I would have thought of. So they're being able to advocate for themselves as to what they need to be successful in the class.
Lauren: And then it in-turn benefits them because they're more engaged. We're building their self-confidence. They're able to really talk for themselves and not have me doing it for them. So working definitely with the students as to what other modifications are there, I love learning from them and if I could give back a portion of what my students with disabilities have taught me about my teachings and how to create these environments that I try to aim to give back some of it.
And I don't know if I ever will, because they've always taught me more things.
Arthur: When you have that some, that's usually how it goes. It's, you know, you're it's like you go into something expecting one thing and then like you said, you learn tenmore things and yeah,
Lauren: I always thought I would get some of the kids towards the end of the marking periods or let them create different obstacle courses.
So when we had all the gym space for their inclusive class, they can choose over equipment they want and they'd be split up into groups and do an obstacle course. And it was fun as you got to see them start to strategize for what their other peers were able to do. So if they knew some of their students were really quick, they would try to figure out, okay, how can we slow them down in this obstacle course?
Or they would they would take into consideration are wheelchair user and okay, well, he's not going to be able to go under this hula hoop or through it. So how can we create something that he's able to do? So then I got to see more. It was kind of a second objective for what the lesson was, but how they were able to modify and adapt other equipment which we then we can use for other activities or other games that they were doing, but they were doing it all on their own.
Arthur: And it's so amazing how fast other children pick up on things and understand things.
Lauren: Yeah, that really is incredible.
Arthur: I feel sometimes like we don't give children much credit for those kinds of things. They, t's like, okay, so, this child who's a wheelchair user has to he won't be able to dribble the ball. So we have to have the ball on his lap.
Okay, No big deal.
Lauren: Yeah.
Arthur: Like you said, they make it part of the whole experience. Okay. He needs 3 seconds before we can actually try to get the ball or whatever from it. So. All right, let's all count down and then let's all go get it.
Lauren: Yeah, that's what it would be, and he would start laughing like, I can picture it. He, loved it. And it was I got him. He was not a student who always and not everybody loves PE. This is it's not a secret. We have a good number of kids who like it. Other kids don't want for whatever reasons there are.
And he for him was hard. And this class, anytime there was basketball he would crack up like he loved it because he thought it was so funny that after 3 seconds of what his rule was, everybody was coming. They were getting to him!
Arthur: And then, like you said, if you you know, if you had a certain activity where the other children realized that, like, okay, this would be difficult for my classmate to get through, like, how can we help figure this out for, you know, for them?
It just makes everything so much better. And, for everyone and especially like at a young age, for elementary school children to have these experiences is interacting with, people their age, children, and other children their age who have disabilities so that when they get older and get out into the real world, it's like, oh, I remember Johnny, who was in my third-grade class, it's no big deal.
Arthur: That’s what I say all the time about my friends and their children and spending time with them and letting them being able to ask me questions about my wheelchair or about my braces, my like braces and my crutches or if take my braces off, why can't I walk? Why do I have to crawl around?
So it's not a big deal to them when they start school, when they go to school and see that the new student who just moved into town has to use a wheelchair, they can say, Oh, a guy comes to the house all the time in a wheelchair. it's no big deal.
Arthur: Yeah, just this past weekend I was at an event and one of my friends who I've known since we were in ninth grade, I was telling the story about her, and I met her my very first day of ninth grade.
She walks up to me and tells me her name and she says, My brother uses a wheelchair. I know how to help transfer. I know how to do this. And you know, if you need help, everybody knows me. You know, go to the office. They can find out what class I'm in. Whatever you need, find me, and we're 42 this year, and we're still the best of friends.
And it's it's just great because it does provide that connection. And it lets the other children know, like in the class that like, okay, they have to do things differently, but they can still participate, and we can all still participate too. And like you said, you give them the three-second countdown and then we can go get him. Like we would just get everybody else,
Lauren: It all goes in together like with equipment there’s what I always call adjusted nubby ball because it makes me think of it. It's not a dog toy but there's a stuffed toy and it has little spikes.
It's going to sound like it's dangerous. And I promise it's not what it is. It's like a rubber it's a rubber ball, but it gives a different texture. So for my students who are playing handball, the gator ball or what typically would be called the dodgeball back would be would be in P.E. it slips out of students hands. So they were catching it.
And it wasn't because they couldn't catch, but that material was too slippery for them. So when we changed the equipment with that ball, all the kids were able to catch it and it didn't matter if you had a disability or not. Everybody started the whole game, started to just increase in skill and teamwork and sportsmanship. Nobody's getting frustrated about what's happening because it's too slippery.
Lauren: They’re able to catch the ball and it it works for everybody and there is nobody that was singled out for whatever it could be. Everybody really was just working together to achieve that goal for handball for the class, which is what our goal is for inclusive education, is that everybody works together with whatever modifications are needed and everybody succeeds.
Arthur: Yeah, I again, I love this conversation because we haven't talked about this on the podcast yet and it's it's so important to talk about because like for myself I can't walk for long distances but I can push myself in my wheelchair for long distances. So physical activity is so important for people with physical disabilities. But then also just for everybody to break up the day, the school day to get out and have some activity, release some energy.
It’s so important for everybody. So I'm so glad that, we're having this conversation. That's cool. I'm excited about it.
Lauren: I love talking about it. I love movement. So any chance I can get anybody to get up and move and knowing that they can do it. And that's always my focus is focus on what people can do.
There are so many times people are hit. They know that they can't do certain things that we don't want to focus on, that we want to focus on, okay, we can this is what we can do. And we are going to we are going to go off of what we can do and we're going to keep building off of that, right?
Arthur: Yeah. Like you said, it's always like I like I know what I can't do, but I'm well aware of that. But to have someone, like yourself in a position of being like a PE teacher to show me like, okay, you can't do this, but here's what you can do to participate with everybody else is really awesome. Really great.
Arthur: So you are recently. Oh, sorry. Wow. I don't know what I was, but I just messed up. So you are an inclusion facilitator with NJCIE. Can you share with us what are some of your responsibilities in that role and what are you most looking forward to with this position?
Lauren: So my role for inclusion facilitator is I get to work with individual schools on different topics that they have applied for so it can be co-teaching or building inclusive environments and we work one one-on-one with each school.
I'm doing observation is going through training and really helping them create these more inclusive environments for things that they feel that their schools need. And then on the systemic change side of it, it's a three-year program right now and we really look at the data that's in the schools. So what are percentages that students are with their general education peers and how many students are out of district?
We try to really change where numbers are and how can we create these more inclusive environments, but really working individually with each school. I think one of the fun parts is that I've been involved in inclusive education and I love to work with kids with disabilities and how can we get them more involved in what is a typical school day in general education classes?
Lauren: And that's what I get to do, is every day I get to work up. It's something different. Each school has their own different needs and we get to be creative and find, okay, this works for here, but it may not work here and how can we change it? And that's what we're learning constantly as we're going through and working with each school.
So I just love being able to share my background and working with people to achieve something that's a greater good for everybody that's involved.
Arthur: Yes, I, I love what you said, that this position allows you to be creative because every setting is different. You know, you're going into these different schools and like you said, something that might work over here doesn't work over there. So you have to think of,a different way to approach, you know, what might be a theme, a similar topic or a similar challenge that the school is facing.
But because of each school having its own unique people and set of circumstances there, you have to approach it differently and you can,, forces you to be creative, to come up with different solutions for every school, every setting that you're in. So that's really yeah, that's cool. So it's like a new like every day is a new a new day like so you get to try some.
Lauren: Yeah. You're on your toes a lot.
Arthur: Well, Lauren, thank you so much for joining me for this conversation to share your story and your experience and to shed light on the world of physical education as it applies to inclusive education because it's a topic like I said, I've been doing this podcast for two years now and we have not really talked about that.
And it's again, it's so important because it is part of the school day for all students. And I love the suggestions that you gave about for the modifications that can be done because it's not if it's not costing a lot of money or any money at all to do those things that you said.
Yeah, it's just purchasing different balls. Like you said, instead of using a a soccer ball, you get a beach ball, you know, and if you get the right deal, you might be able to get a couple of beach balls, you know, and then save money. So yes I thank you again for this conversation. And it was great to meet you virtually. And I will be in touch with you.
Lauren: Of course. This was awesome. Thank you so much for having me on, Arthur. It was a great conversation. I'd be happy whenever you need me. I'm here.
Arthur: Great. Thank you. Oh, well, you have a great day.
Lauren: Yeah, you too!
TranscriptArthur: This is the inclusion Think Tank Podcast, where we talk about inclusive education, why it works, and how to make it happen. On today’s episode, I welcome my guest Amara. Amara is an inclusion facilitator with NJCIE. During our conversation, we discuss how Amara has been applying her over 10 years of experience in education, and her interest in servant leadership in her role as an inclusion facilitator, and also what she is most looking forward to in this position with NJCIE.
Arthur: I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the inclusion. Think Tank podcast. I am the host, Arthur Aston, and I am happy to welcome my guest to the podcast today, Amara. So thank you so much for joining me for this conversation.
AmaraL Thank you for having me.
Arthur: Yes, I ask all of my guests to introduce themselves and to share some fun facts about themselves. So if you'd like to do in your free time, if you have any, and a little bit about your background and and all of that. So if you could do that right now, that's great.
Amara: Thank you. So, yeah, my name is Amara. I'm a new inclusion facilitator with the New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. I consider myself a pretty feminine spiritual woman, and I'm in my early to mid-thirties.
I am a mom to a 15-month-old and actually, I have another one on the way in about four months. Five months. I love personal and spiritual development. I love those kinds of books and like aligning myself with the season. So like we're in fall right now, so I like to get more sleep If I can. Eat more seasonally and generally kind of slow down and kind of take a step back from everything I'm doing to kind of follow the season and just kind of rest as we're approaching winter, and that's here in the Northeast.
I've been an educator for ten years. I taught in Washington, D.C., where I spent the majority of my teaching career. I've also taught in Maryland and in Florida. I am duly certified in special ed in elementary education. And I've taught elementary school and high school special ed, general Ed. And I was also a reading specialist for a little bit.
Amara: my college career, I have a Bachelor of Science from Cornell University. I actually thought I was going to be a veterinarian, but that is obviously not the case anymore. And I had an education minor, which is really what introduced me to the world of education, but my mother is a teacher and has been in Asbury Park, New Jersey for like 23 years, I want to say she's close to retiring. and I have a certificate of administration and supervision as well.
As you said, I don't really have a lot of free time currently, with the little one when I do is probably reading something I like to read before bed or journaling. And I like yoga a lot when I get the opportunity to do that.
So that's a little bit about my background.
Arthur: Yay! Well, congratulations for the one on the way and awesome. Yeah, I, I also enjoy reading and journaling. So I, when you said that, I was like, yeah, that's really a cool thing to do. I've really gotten into audiobooks in the last few years. Listening to audiobooks and doing that right before bed is really been great or I can't listen to them in the car.
People are like, Oh, I listen to audiobooks in the car.
Amara: I’ve tried, I’ve tried the audiobook thing, but I really think, like my dad is a reader too, so he's just like, he likes to smell books and I think I got that from him. It's like, I need something in my hand if I want to go back and highlight or write notes, and I can’t always do that as efficiently with audio.
Arthur: Yeah, that is the great thing about having a real book, like you said. Yeah. You know, to fold the page back like, Oh, I love that. I think that that's really a good time to be able to hold a book. Yes, that's yeah, that for sure.
Arthur: So can you share with us what does inclusive education mean to you?
How would you define inclusive education?
Amara: So for me, inclusive education would mean giving all students, regardless of background, socioeconomic status, race, gender, or ability, an equitable opportunity to live out their greatest potential as their same-age peers and with their same-age peers in their classroom.
So for me, I think that equitable peace is really important because that means if we're thinking through a lens of equity, especially when it comes to special education, we're designing our classrooms, our curriculums, our lessons, thinking about our students furthest away from success. Due to some sort of barrier at designing our classroom from the outset to address said barriers so that they can be successful?
But what happens is when we do that, we find all students end up being successful. It's like the handicap ramp, for example. We put them in buildings expecting people who are in wheelchairs, who maybe might be pregnant, who are on crutches to use those ramps, but what do we see? Everybody uses those ramps or even whether they need it or not. And so I definitely think that we need to think about education in the same way so that we can ensure that every student has the opportunity to be as successful as they want to be in the classroom.
Arthur: I always use the example of the ramp, as I always do, because I'm like, everybody can use a right tomorrow no matter what. You can use the ramp. And it's like you said, with inclusive education, the equitable piece is the. So the most important part, it's just, you know, brings everybody together and everybody can learn and we can learn from each other.
You can learn from the children who have the disability needs and have those experiences, because in the real world, outside of school when they go on to graduate or go on to college or work in the workforce, they will be other people with disabilities.
Amara: Yeah, everybody is out there.
Arthur: Exactly. Everybody is out there. So you will, I think the earlier we can have these interactions and have the students together with their peers, no matter if they have a disability or not, I think the better society can be as a whole as they grow to be teenagers and older and into adulthood.
Yeah, it's really important to start that. So at an early age, which is, really important.
Amara I would add to that that the data supports that, right? The data that we've done within inclusive education shows that all students actually do better when everybody is included, both the students with disabilities and students without disabilities to everybody thrives and does better and are successful when everybody is included. Regardless of people's personal feelings about it, the data does support an inclusive classroom over a non-inclusive one.
Arthur: Yes, and the data has been the same consistently for 30 years. It's out there and it's, easy to find. The data supports that is inclusive setting is the better overall for everyone.
Arthur: So as you mentioned, you are an inclusion facilitator with NJCIE. Can you share with us some of your responsibilities in that role?
Amara: So far the biggest part of my role has been working with school teams on a long-term basis, talking to improve their inclusion rates.
So I know that I'll be with these schools for at least the next three years. These schools have been identified to receive a grant through the New Jersey Inclusion Project, and basically these schools, we want to serve as models within their districts of what inclusive education is and should look like. So basically, New Jersey has the worst inclusion rates in the country, where about 24% included students and national averages about 66%, with the goal obviously being 80%.
And so what this includes is that I meet with these school teams on a monthly basis for the entire school year, basically educating the team, and building capacity of these teams to create a more inclusive school environment for their students. So we do professional development, we do walkthroughs, we do observations, we do modeling, we also do professional development with their entire staff around things like inclusion 101, things like coach teaching, universal design for learning anything that would really be instrumental in creating an inclusive environment. We're going to be building the capacity of these school teams to be able to do that within their school environments.
Amara: And so we also help them with analyzing their own data, thinking about students who they're identifying for special ed and kind of making sure that they're included from the outset instead of having to go back to re-include them.
We help them create action plans, analyze the action plans, implement action plans, and even involve the school families when appropriate, to make sure that they're also considered a valuable stakeholder as well. So that's what my job is entailed, because also sometimes schools are require a one off training, like I did a training at a school not too far from here.
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That's not part of my official workload of schools. But they wanted a training on some behavior modifications and accommodations for students with ADHD. So I did some of like one-off trainings as well. I also have some walkthroughs on my calendar, so a school might request a walk-through for someone to come in to look at their inclusive classrooms or look at their self-contained classrooms and see what can be done to improve that within their school environment.
So that's what my role has consisted of as far.
Arthur: That’s awesome. You sound very busy.
Amara: That would be correct!
Arthur: So when we were planning to record, you shared with me that you have an interest in servant leadership.
And I did a little research on that and I found that listening, empathy, and awareness are three of the common characteristics of servant leadership. So can you share with us how these characteristics can be applied in the world of inclusive education?
Amara: So I got interested in servant leadership and I was doing my certificate of admin supervision. It was through Loyola University and it's a Jesuit-affiliated university.
And so that was kind of the foundation with which our program was based on. And so for me, those characteristics are really just part of a humane, just equitable society, not just inclusive education. But if we're looking at inclusive education honestly and any really any other societal system, we're thinking about, we'd make the jump more readily to an inclusive education, educational environment because we'd be able to empathize with students who are not included and really think about the barriers that they're facing from the jump and be able to create our classrooms, our schools, our buildings, our what am I thinking of, like our social systems from the outset to make sure that everybody has what they need to survive and to thrive.
So, basically, it just means to me that we're really taking a humane, humanistic approach to what we're doing with students in the classrooms every day and every part of it, from them arriving in the morning to eating lunch, to how they're learning the material, to interacting with their peers, to the behavior systems we use, we would really create really humane, very kind, compassionate classroom environments from all aspects.
So it just means that, we're giving students what they need to in order to survive and to thrive in our classrooms.
Amara: I had done some work in DC through a program called City Bridge, and at that time that program was focused on people who were interested in founding their own schools in the city. And we worked with somebody named Caroline Hill, who is the founder of something called the 228 Accelerator.
And it was basically a community of practice centered around a theory called Equity by Design. I'm bringing it up because something that stuck with me from that training was that she had a theory that we called designing from the margins. So thinking from the student, thinking about the students who are furthest away from success or furthest away from opportunity, because that was most focused on the opportunity gap.
But what can we put in place from the outset to have these students fill these gaps so that they are closer to the success that is required or that they would like to achieve for themselves?
Amara: And so for me, it's very applicable to inclusive education because it's the same thing. We're thinking about the margins, students furthest away from opportunity, furthest away from being included, furthest away from being successful in our school environment.
What is missing? Why aren't they being successful and how can we put those things in place to help eliminate those barriers in order for them to be successful?
And, ultimately, when we create these kinds of environments, we then help to create a better world and a better society because students take that with them as they graduate, as they go out into the world, as they do their jobs, as they are creating more things for our society, we end up affecting the world as a whole or the country as a whole.
Arthur: I agree with everything that you that you just said. I think for those were just three of the many characteristics of servant leadership that I found.
They all like you said, they applied to society as a whole and not just inclusive education and, you know, I think the big thing is listening, because inclusive education takes work from a lot of different people that are involved. From the top levels of the school board all the way down to, you know, the people in the lunchroom and the custodian building, It involves everybody, including the students themselves.
So, listening and realizing what needs to be done and hearing all sides of everything. I think that's a really big part of it. And then just having empathy and awareness, that's so important. You don't it's like you can't fix what you don't know kind of thing. Exactly. So being aware of what the challenges are can help you arrive at solutions and, so I think those are, really big things for applying and being able to apply this to the inclusive education world.
Arthur: So to wrap up our conversation, can you share with us something that you are looking forward to in your role as an inclusion facilitator?
Amara: I think what I'm looking forward to the most would probably be seeing the transformation of the school communities, and I hope it's like palpable because like data will be one thing, like to say, Oh, we have like instead of, 20% or 30%, that's cool.
But I also want to be able to like, feel it when I walk in the classrooms and throughout the school, like seeing all kinds of students in one classroom, working together, creating together, laughing together. I think that would be the thing they looking forward to the most, because ultimately this work is going to require a paradigm shift, and we know that that is really hard to do no matter what we're talking about.
And so this is going to require us to look at education in a whole new way. And there are going to be some people who are going to be able to understand it and get with it and some people who aren't going to be able to, and maybe they'll transition to do something else.
But ultimately, as our world gets more diverse, we're going to have to shift this anyway in how we're doing education and the US, New Jersey. We're not the only ones grappling with this. Other countries are also doing this as well. We have pretty decent data about how other countries are educating all students in an inclusive environment, and they're doing a lot better job than we are.
Amara: So we know it's possible. And so I think for me, you know, the future of the world literally depends on it, because we want to be able to create a world that works for everybody. And starting at our schools is one way of us to be able to accomplish that. So being able to see that happening, I think in real time would be the thing I'm looking forward to most.
Arthur: That’s great. Yes, It's always it's always fun to know that you're part of making the change and then being able to see the change that has taken place. That’s really great and rewarding for, you know, for everybody to to have that happen.
So, Amara, thank you so much for your time for having this conversation with me on the podcast and, wishing you the best and all of the things that you're doing and now I will be in touch with you soon.
Amara: Sounds good. Thank you so much for the invitation.
Arthur: We thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast. This podcast is brought to you by the New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education NJCIE. Be sure to subscribe on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple Podcast, and don't forget to follow us on social media @NJCIE. Until next time.
The Inclusion Think Tank Podcast is back with a brand new episode. Today, Arthur is joined by his guests Brittany Seeley and Dr. Kelli Petrone. Brittany and Kelli discuss the New Jersey Inclusion Project (NJIP) grant. If you are a school administrator in New Jersey, you can sign up for NJCIE’s Community of Practice meeting, training, and discussion session here: https://www.njcie.org/cop
TranscriptArthur: This is the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by the New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE, where we talk about inclusive education, why it works, and how to make it happen. On today's episode, I welcome, I guess, Dr. Kelli Petrone and Brittany Seeley.
Join our conversation as we discuss the New Jersey Inclusion Project, NJIP, a program collaboration between the New Jersey Department of Education and the New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, that offers free technical assistance, long-term systemic change projects, leadership development events and additional materials and resources to support inclusive education.
Arthur: I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. I'm your host, Arthur Aston, and I am happy to welcome my two guests on the podcast today, Brittany Seeley and Dr. Kelli Petrone. So thank you both for joining me for this conversation today.
Kelli: Thanks for having us.
Arthur: Yes. So to start off, can you each share a little bit about yourself, who you are, what your titles and responsibilities are working with NJCIE, and also something or some things that you'd like to do in your free time if you have any. And we can start with KellI and then Brittany, You can follow.
Kelli: Sure. So I am Kelli Petrone. I am a Program Director at NJCIE. I primarily do I work with systemic change in schools. And then I also work with a few other grants as well as we work with individuals on different needs that they have that they may contract with us for. In terms of what I like to do, possibly in my free time, my family and I like to go hiking and I also go to a ton of pro sporting events.
So that seems to be what occupies most of our time.
Brittany: And hello, I’m Brittany Seeley I am also one of the Program Directors at NJCIE. And kind of following what Kelly had said, we both oversee the New Jersey Inclusion Project grant work, which is throughout the state of New Jersey. We are making sure deliverables are met, and data is collected, and we are supporting the work around inclusion across the state and, supporting our amazing inclusion facilitators who are regionally based.
Something I guess I enjoy doing when I'm not working is traveling or in the summers being up on the lake where I grew up and being out in the boat as much as I can be with family and friends.
Arthur: Awesome. I love both of your answers for what you like to do in your free time.
Being on a boat is one of my favorite things. I don't get to do it too often, but I definitely enjoy it, and being anywhere outdoors is always fun and sporting events. I have definitely become more interested in those and have attended more of those in more recent years with some friends and family.
So it's always a good time to take a break, like you said when you're not working If you have any free time to spend time with family and friends.
Arthur: So this conversation will center around the New Jersey Inclusion Project, also known as NJIP, which is a collaboration between the New Jersey Department of Education and the New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. This project is described as a program that offers free technical assistance longer-term systemic change projects, leadership development events, and additional materials and resources to support inclusive education.
So can you share with us why it was important to create this project and some of the goals that have been created for the project store?
Kelli: So according to a report published by the Law Center. New Jersey is currently the least inclusive state in the country, with an inclusion rate defined as students with disabilities, included with general education peers, 80% or more of the day with the inclusion rate of 45.2%.
So that means that of the 225,447 students with this service in the state, currently 101,902 students are included 80% or more of the day. And I know that's a lot of numbers, but it's a pretty low rate. So if if New Jersey included students at the national rate of 66.2%, 149,246 students would be included. So this means that there are about 47,000 students currently excluded who could otherwise be serviced in their general education classrooms along with their peers, which yields many benefits not just for students with disabilities, but for all students.
So NJCIE’s inclusion facilitators will provide strategic and targeted support to educators and school leaders serving students with disabilities and grades. Kindergarten through Grade 12. So support will be provided to schools from districts demonstrating a need through the New Jersey Department of Education, least restrictive environment data, and will include technical assistance for 15 sites every year and systemic change facilitation for 48 sites throughout this entire project.
Kelli: So support will also include leadership development through conferences and community practice activities and the development and dissemination of universal resources and guidance. So the wide array of support that will be provided will help administrators and staff members acquire the knowledge and skills necessary to meet the needs of all learners.
Arthur: I shared with both of you before we started recording that, and I've been doing this for two years with NJCIE already, which is wild to believe.
We use a lot of acronyms and sometimes I myself have to ask what they mean. So I've been familiar with this, the NJIP. And what you all are doing, But I wanted to make sure that we took some time out for an episode that was dedicated just to this to share the important information. Just because it is important to the work that you all are doing to help increase the inclusion rate here in New Jersey, as you mentioned, it is at the lowest in the country.
So, having something like this getting started is really important to help with t raising that inclusion rate.
Arthur: So for someone who might be listening to the podcast and may be interested in possibly having these services for their own school district, can you provide some information about what NJIP and each of the areas of programming provides?
Brittany: Absolutely. So there's a lot, as Kelly mentioned before. So this grant, it's a multifaceted plan, really intended to support and facilitate and enhance already in place current initiatives through the Department of Education in New Jersey, such as the NJTSS, which is the New Jersey tiered system of supports as well as the PBSIS The Positive Behavior Supports in New Jersey Public Schools.
And we're really looking to develop, expand, and improve inclusive practices within all of the schools in New Jersey. The vision and the collaboration is an effort between NJCIE as well as the New Jersey Department of Education, Office of Special Education. And the goal together is really to increase the number of students who attend the school they would attend if they did not have the support needs. If they weren't assigned to age-appropriate gen-ed grades and classes and instructed with this core curriculum, based on research and principles of universal design for learning, really that is furthering the differentiation for diverse learners in each classroom.
So the first portion of the grant that we have is called technical assistance, which Kelli had meant, and we are targeting 15 sites yearly through this three-year grant and NJCIE team of inclusion facilitators has developed both synchronous and asynchronous materials and resources through pamphlets and webinars and different Moodle courses to deliver support for approved topics such as inclusion in 1 to 1 or building an inclusive culture, Universal Design for Learning, Co-Teaching differentiation. Development of IEP’s, positive behavior and modifications and accommodations. And how it's structured is we have its five sessions. If you receive the grant for technical assistance, it's targeted technical assistance provided in five sessions where the first session is specific for administrators so that they can really hear and understand the content that their staff will be receiving in Session two, so that they can continue monitoring and checking and conducting walkthroughs to make sure these practices are followed through.
Brittany: The Session two is the participants. They're receiving the content and then the sessions three and four are really specific to two classrooms where there's the inclusion facilitator is coming in, observing coaching, and providing individualized feedback right in the classrooms with staff and then the follow-up session, that session five is the wrap-up session. And then we're really tracking a lot of data through a pre and a post to see the growth from sessions to all the way through session five with the main participants.
I may throw it over to Kelli to talk a little bit more about the other piece of the grant, which is the systemic change portion.
Kelli: So systemic change implementation is a science-based systemic change process for building and sustaining inclusive schools. So if you're selected to participate in this longer-term partnership and JCT is regionally based inclusion facilitators will provide three years of implementation, science-based systemic change-facilitation.
So the ultimate goal of the systemic change process is to support schools in their improvement of school-based LRE data or at least restrictive environment data and practices that support sustainable and effective inclusion inclusive school communities. So the process includes support by creating awareness and commitment to improving your LRE data, working on collaborative decision making, fostering greater awareness and curriculum and instructional adaptations, building capacity for individualized support, using like doing some trainer model, cultivating in an inclusive school community, and then allocating necessary resources and inclusive scheduling.
And it sounds like we're doing a lot because we are, but this is not done all at once. Of course, this is over the course of three years, but all of the school we work on throughout the three years. So a lot of times what we're doing is we're working with the schools on, you know, developing and allocating time and resources for the work of school-based implementation team.
Kelli: So which will include, monthly meetings, there's other activities such as we do walkthroughs, but we also do like a coaching model with some teachers working with the team on overall school staff. So looking at it as the whole school in smaller groups as well, and to gather information to the current functioning of the school building and understanding built growing knowledge and then working on best practices in an inclusive environment.
We will work collaboratively with them on gathering and interpreting a bunch of different data that we collect the data, but we work with the schools on interpreting it and understanding it. So we typically will gather their LRE data and making sure that it's specific to their school site. We survey the whole staff, but we do a lot of collection of other data pieces as well.
We create opportunities for best practices in an inclusive education to be woven into the current diversity. So again, we don't want them to like not work on other components to the change process. So we try to collaborate with whatever initiatives they're working with.
Kelli: We try to select a support as a liaison at the school site that can help build capacity so that when we're no longer there and three years after we've done all of this work together, that they can continue the efforts towards their inclusive practices. We will try to work on advocating for inclusive education within their school and then within the district by encouraging an open dialog, fostering a culture of inclusion, and then working towards removing barriers to the development of a full, inclusive school community.
A lot of times what we do is we evaluate efforts to ensure the goals of the school are continuously alined with the NJIP components and also to determine readiness for change and continued engagement and systemic change. So it's a lot of different pieces and we do these through monthly meetings.
We do this through training. We talked about we do synchronous and asynchronous training, but we also do the trainer train or model monthly, which is a great way for the trainers at each school site to work with other school sites and to learn what they're doing to make their practices work at their school sites. And Brittany, did you want to talk about leadership?
Brittany: Yeah. So the the last piece of this multifaceted grant is really the leadership development. And JCI team members are planning and facilitating various opportunities for leadership development and stakeholder engagement, which includes two regionally based leadership development conferences, one that typically in the South and one in the North. Our first one will be January 19th down in the southern region, which will give you information to find that on our website shortly, as well as community practice opportunities.
Right now we by the end of the year will have held and conducted nine community practice opportunities for leaders across the state with the topics and the regionally based. So we would have three in the north, three central and three south. The first topic is inclusive master scheduling. The second topic is inclusive hiring practices, retention and recruitment. And the third topic is mental health foundations, as well as culturally responsive teaching practices.
So these leadership development activities are really helping to support the capacity building, creating systems to ensure each child with a disability has that equitable access to all the resources needed to achieve the optimal outcomes.
Brittany: The targeted attendees of the Inclusion Leadership Conference include school administrators who are actually offered free registration, other school faculty, staff, parents, students and self-advocates.
And opportunities even include breakfast, lunch, and meet and greets. And we will be providing attendees to build these connections with other educators in their fields. Field of study and more information. And information is on our website at nicie.org/Conference. And you could actually sign up now for the Southern Conference on January 19th. Registration is available.
Arthur: Thank you both for that Great answer, and Kelli, as you said, it sounds like you're doing a lot and you are. It's you know, I felt it was really important, again, to just share what this is all about, and thank you both for providing all of that information and also the information about the upcoming conference that's taking place in January. So to wrap up our conversation, for schools and districts who are interested, how can they go about inquiring or applying for the NJIP services?
Kelli: So you can learn more on our website, you can go to www.njcie.org/njip, is a great place to start. Applications for next year will begin probably in March or April, but you can also look to apply, that’s for formal application, but you can also just see what we're doing if you just go to NJIP.
So any additional questions, please feel free to reach out to our email at Team@njcie.org.
Arthur: Thank you both so much for this great conversation. I appreciate you taking the time to talk and to share about the New Jersey Inclusion Project. And I hope you have a great rest of your day.
Brittany & Kelli: Thank you Arthur.
Arthur: We thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast. This podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education NJCIE. Be sure to subscribe on YouTube, Spotify or Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to follow us on social media @NJCIE, Until next time.
This is part two of my conversation with Monica Ahern and Maureen Holly Kerne. The conversation continues as Monica and Maureen share what they wish districts knew about inclusive education and some of the success stories they have seen over the years.
Watch the Webinar here: https://www.facebook.com/IncludeNJ/videos/734331308528353
TranscriptArthur: This is the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education NJCIE, where we talk about inclusive education why it works and how to make it happen. This is part two of my conversation with Monica Ahern and Maureen Holly Kerne. The conversation continues as Monica and Maureen share what they wish districts knew about inclusive education and some of the success stories they have seen over the years.
Arthur: So the next part of the conversation I would like to talk about what do you wish districts would understand about inclusive education and the importance of working collaboratively with parents?
Maureen: I think what I would hope that districts would understand about inclusive education is that it is based in research, it is based in theory, and it has been demonstrated over to improve students progress.
I also wish that districts would understand that all students can learn in inclusive environments with the appropriate supports and accommodations and that districts would create cultures that accept diversity and that accept all children as equals in their school district.
Monica: That it's a win-win situation for everyone because all children can learn best when they're in a classroom filled with diversity.
Right? We all learn from each other. So our neurotypical peers are students with IEPs. We all learn from each other. I always and I'm going to show my age. I talk about when we used to track students, right when we used to have the high track, the middle track, the low track of students, we knew that didn't work.
We proved that didn't work right because we learn from each other. And we all have different strengths and weaknesses. So when we put students together, we have students who want to put in self-contained classes or in resources. And those students bring so much to the conversation and to the classroom, and then they in turn learn from their peers.
So it is really a win-win situation. And the world is not segregated. Right? We all have to come together in the workplace and in the community and work together. So we need to learn that from when we start preschool. We need to learn how to accept each other and work together and be together, and the best place to do that is in preschool and through school. So everyone wins.
Maureen: I think the other thing that I think that districts need to understand is inclusion is not about opening a class. Inclusion is about a cultural shift in this school, including everybody in the school, the principal the assistant principal, the teachers, the janitors, the people in the lunchroom.
So it's really about creating a culture of acceptance in your school, in your district. And inclusion is never going to work by just opening by simply opening a class. Because, again, what we're doing is we have the inclusive class instead of looking at the entire school and saying, how do we become a culture that accepts diversity, that embraces diversity, that is able to appropriately address diversity? How do we become that?
When you start asking those hard questions, then I think you're starting to create a culture of inclusion.
Arthur: Yes, that is the culture of inclusion. I love that. That's another common topic that comes up in these conversations. And it goes beyond just the one inclusive classroom. It's not just a classroom. It's not a place, it's a whole culture of the school.
As you said again, including everyone from the top administration level down in the district, it really does take, like the village. It takes the whole the whole village every everybody to participate, make this a success. So thank you both for sharing that.
Arthur: So the next question, I know it can be hard to choose just one, because as you said, you've been in this, you know, in this profession for so long, for so many years, but was there a positive interaction that either one or both of you have had with the district as it relates to inclusive education that you can describe and share with us?
I think we've both had them. Maureen, do you want to start or do you want me?
Maureen: You can do yours. We practiced this already. We went over these.
Monica: Most recently, I had a really good experience with a family that I was working with. And the family had been in a district and I went to the district, of course, so actually the family was in a district and they had a really good experience.
Their child was completely included and doing great and then they moved into another district and things just went downhill. And the kid is amazing. He's an amazing musician and he's just a great kid. They moved into the new district. He started high school and the district immediately put him in a self-contained class, which he had never been in. For close to a year, we tried to work collaboratively with the district and have him included, and it just didn't work.
The reason I tell the story, because we want to show how we parents become so desperate to do what's right for their kids. They moved. They actually moved from one town to another and moved into a district where the students started his second year of high school and he is 100% included in high school. Went from a self-contained class, an M.D., self-contained class, multiply-disabled to full inclusion.
He's in the band. He is in the play in the crew. He doesn't like to act, but he's in the crew in the back. He is so happy. I got his first day of school picture, just so thrilled. I receive pictures of him playing in the band He's joined and just so thrilled and 100% included.
When he was in the other high school, he wasn't allowed to choose any of his electives because he had to go where the self-contained class chose all his own elective. SAT with him at his IEP meeting, sat with him with the guidance counselor. He was able to choose all his own electives. He's doing woodworking because his dad's in construction and he works with his dad. Just amazing.
The difference for this kid is just like so night and day, I can't even explain it. He literally went from a self-contained multiple-disabled class to full inclusion just by moving one town over. So if this town can do it, the town next door should be able to do it.
Maureen: And I'm going to tell you, I actually am going to deviate. I'm going to tell a totally different story. One of the things that I have been adamant about is transition. So students who are getting ready to move from school to adult life. So I've had many students who spent their life and their days in self-contained classes. And the parent expectation for one of the kids was that he was going to go into what's called a day program.
So in the adult world, that is a separate, self-contained program that students will go into if they need those supports and I met with the parent. And I met with the student and we did something called person-centered planning. And when we started to talk, it became very clear that the student wanted to go out and work. And I said to the mom, let's go for it. Let's go for it, and we did go for it. It was a long road. It was a hard road.
Maureen: But at the end of the day, this student has been working now for I'm going to now I'm going to age myself. I'm probably about ten years. He is the happiest. He is part of his community. He is employed. He goes to company picnics, he goes to company parties. So this is a child to the district. So I needed to be in a separate, self-contained class for his whole life. And the community took a chance on this child and said, we're going to hire him. He's going to become one of us. And he is just doing I still go and visit him at work.
He is just the happiest person in the world because he is out there, He's earning money. He's doing all of the things that we want to do. He had all of the same hopes and dreams that we did, and we were able to help him realize those dreams, and it was just an absolutely amazing experience.
Arthur: Thank you both for those great stories and listening to both of them, it it showed to me like what people are capable of when given the opportunity to be placed in specific settings. And they surprise people all the time. And it's just, you don't know what someone is capable of until you give them a chance to see what they can do.
So these are really great examples. And Monica, in the story that you shared, thinking about how just that one town over a few towns over, you can change and see something totally different than what you saw previously. And as you said, if one district can do it everyone should be able to do it, in their own way, because districts are different, they're different sizes and have different resources available to them and things like that.
But it can all be done, and can all be done successfully, matching up with your district and the needs of those students within that district. So thank you both for sharing those stories.
Arthur: And to wrap up this conversation, I would like for you to share what you feel makes you different. And other advocates, other parents advocates.
Maureen: We’re better!
Arthur: Perfect. Yes.
Maureen: I mean, I don't want to say it, but, I think I think and I'll start and Monica will chime in. I think what makes us not necessarily better, but different is that we have lived this our whole professional careers. We've lived in on both sides of the fence, meaning that we've been in the system and now we're working outside the system.
So we have a very good working knowledge of how the system works. I think the other thing is that both Monica and I and Monica has mentioned it before, have known each other for forever. We are both extremely passionate about what we do. We believe in what we do and we believe strongly believe that all kids can be included if we can figure out the right way to support them.
So I think with that belief and with that passion, we could change the world. We could take a world one kid at a time.
Monica: Absolutely. And I think for us, as a former director, I have dealt with advocates and like in any profession, some are good and some are not so good. But for us, it's not about the fight, it's about doing what's right for the kid.
So, again, you know, as both of us former directors, we understand both sides of the fence, but we also believe in going we're not going to go in there, you know, yelling and screaming. We're going to go in there trying to collaborate and make the relationship work, always thinking about what's in the best interest of the child, which is inclusion.
We're going to try get what we want because it's right for the kid, but it's not going to be an adversarial thing. We were going to try and work and again, I'm going to age us both, Maureen, but we've been around a long time and we know a lot of people.
Monica: So usually we can go in and have like a really professional conversation and say, hey, listen, let's sit down, let's talk. Here's how the parent is feeling, Here's what we know is right, Here's all the resources we can give you.
We can write goals. We can set somebody up a DVR or DVRS or a case manager. We can assist the district and assist the parent. So I think that’s it, and we're just better
Arthur: Oh gosh, that was funny.
Yeah, that's it's great. And I really appreciate this conversation with you both. And it's it's funny, it reminded me of a friend of mine who was a teacher, and I came to do a presentation for one of her classes. She was an English teacher. And what I didn't share with you both is that I. I also have a disability.
I was born with spinal bifida and I went and spoke to her classroom one day, and it was the day that she was getting observed by her principal. This is someone I've known since middle school at the conversation with you both in the way that you've known each other for so long reminded me of that day because her principal said, I don't know what you two just did, but it was like, magnificent, and you need to take the show on the road like this. It was so good!
Arthur: She would ask, or she would say like a few words to me, and I would have a whole story about something that we did. So it just reminded me, you know, listening to you both talk and, as you said, you've known each other for so long and have worked together on inclusion and getting inclusion into schools in New Jersey and helping parents and working for that collaborative relationship between districts and parents is so important.
So thank you both for joining me for this episode and sharing your story and your experiences. thank you.
Monica: Thank you for having us.
Arthur: Yes. So I will be in touch with you soon.
Monica: sounds great. Thank you.
Arthur: Have a good day. Take care.
We thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast.
This podcast is brought to you by the New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education NJCIE. Be sure to subscribe on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple Podcast, and don't forget to follow us on social media @NJCIE. Until next time.
On today's episode, I welcome my guests Monica Ahern and Maureen Picolli-Kerne, in this part one of our conversation, Monica and Maureen, share what has surprised them most having both worked in school districts and now as parent advocates. They also share some of the common challenges that parents face when they are pushing toward an inclusive education environment for their children.
On Today’s episode, I welcome my guest Katherine Kelly. Katherine is the Executive Director of IncludeNJ. Join us as we discuss why it is important to include parents and caregivers in the inclusive education conversation.
TranscriptArthur: This is the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE. Where we talk about inclusive education, why it works, and how to make it happen. On Today’s episode, I welcome my guest Katherine Kelly. Katherine is the Executive Director of IncludeNJ. Join us as we discuss why it is important to include parents and caregivers in the inclusive education conversation.
Arthur I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by the New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. I'm your host, Arthur Aston, and I am happy to welcome my guest to the podcast today, Katherine Kelly. So, Katherine, thank you for joining me for this episode.
Katherine: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Arthur: Yes. So, we talked a few minutes before I started recording and, let you know a little bit about myself, and so I'm excited to hear about you and to learn all of the great things you all are doing there at IncludeNJ, so again, thank you for joining me.
Katherine: Yeah. Thank you. I can just jump into it and let you know a little bit about myself and a little bit about the organization.
Arthur: Yeah, that would be great, can you tell us who you are and what you do? And I always like to know how people became interested in the world of inclusive education. And also if you could share something fun you'd like to do in your free time.
Katherine: Thanks. Yeah, that's a lot. I'm a full person, so I've got a lot to share with you, but I'll pick one.
Arthur: Great.
Katherine: Okay, So again, my name is Katherine Kelly. I am the executive director of IncludeNJ, and we are a brand-new organization that seeks to help parents and caregivers of students, 3 to 21. So running the whole gamut of pre-K all the way to transition. We are here to help those parents really navigate the school system and work towards an inclusive education for the students that they care for and the students in their families.
Myself, I have a background in nonprofit marketing. I have been doing nonprofit marketing for too many years, so I come to the organization through a different organization that I worked at previously. It seems like many of my roles in the past have always gravitated toward students and towards education. So I have worked for the Muscular Dystrophy Association and I've worked for Little Kids Rock I have worked for Eye2Eye.
I have worked for all these organizations that are kind of looking to have the same end goal, and that is to create a society that we want to have. We want our kids to grow up and model the society that we want to build for them. So that is what lands me here IncludeNJ is my background in nonprofits and my background in marketing.
Katherine: And really, when I talk about myself as a marketer, I like to think of myself more as kind of a storyteller of the organization that I work for. So I really have to have that kind of passion in me to be able to share those stories, and finding out about NJCIE, and finding out about the drive for inclusive education just was a natural fit in all of the work that I've been doing for over a decade now in nonprofits.
Arthur: Wow, that's great. I love that you said, you’re being A storyteller for the organization, that is it's so true because you really are. You’re putting out to the world what the organization does, telling their story. You are the storyteller. That's a great way to explain it. That's cool.
Katherine: So I am actually a part of a community chorus here in my hometown of Jersey City. So I love that's what I'm doing in my free time is just belting out Broadway and American songs from the American Songbook.
Arthur: Oh, that's great. That's so cool. I love Broadway. I love going to shows in New York. And I recently saw Fat Ham on Broadway before it closed.
it was a really fun show. But wow, that's great. So you're a singer. that's cool.
Arthur: So can you tell us what does inclusive education mean to you?
Katherine: Absolutely. So inclusive education, I can tell you from my own perspective as a parent, I discovered I found out a lot more about what goes on in a special education setting versus a general education setting, when my child was diagnosed with ADHD at a very young age. I got to learn the ins and outs of students being pulled out of their classrooms and being segregated for their special time with their paraprofessionals and with their special education educators. I also got a really good understanding of what that felt like. On the other side of it.
I was diagnosed myself through having my child diagnosed with ADHD, which is how it happens these days as especially as women. We are diagnosed much later in life and people find out, Hey, this whole time I've had ADHD that answers so many questions, so I was diagnosed later in life. And looking back at my own education back in the nineties, aging myself here. But I would have had such an easier time had I known that at the time.
I think that it would been great if other students around me also had an understanding of what was going on with me and that would have prepared them to be able to collaborate better with me and prepared me to be able to work in the classroom with everyone around me.
So that's my back story. And then as coming up and being the mama bear and fighting for your kids and fighting for the education that they're entitled to, I ran into so many roadblocks just as a mom, and I'm just a mom with a kid with ADHD. And I know that it's neurodiversity that a lot of us have and a lot of us are being we're getting more precise in how we diagnose that now.
So a lot of us are coming up and a lot of our children are coming up with ADHD. And so it is just generally out there and a lot of information is out there on how to teach children with those different learning differences that we have. Yet you still run into the walls in the general education classrooms.
Katherine: As a mom, just coming up in IEP meetings and 504 meetings, just like I don't understand why we can't have these accommodations for my kid. That's just going to make it easier on everybody involved. It was always a fight with my school district, and that was in everything I tried from pulling out of public school into charter systems and going back into the public school system.
I never encountered any collaboration as a parent in the school district that I'm in. So that's where I'm coming to this from, and seeing students that are completely pulled out of the system and watching how they don't have that integration with their peers and their peers don't have the integration either. That’s a problem on the other side like it's not like they’re living in a society where everyone is sitting exactly the same at a desk and everyone is, you know, and learns exactly the same way.
So these people are going to have to graduate from school at some point and work with tons of different people with tons of different learning styles, and we're not preparing our general students to do that either.
Arthur: Yeah, I really appreciate what you said about if you had known about ADHD earlier, your peers would have been able to better collaborate with you and understand and you would have a better understanding of them as well.
I think that's the the good thing about the early diagnosis and the early integration of both classes to have, people with disabilities in the general education setting to have everybody just understands everyone a lot better.
it makes it okay because as you said, eventually these children who are now in kindergarten or first or second grade, eventually they're going to graduate high school and be out in the working world where people like you said, they learn differently and they will have to work side by side and on teams with people who learn differently and have different styles of learning and ways of doing things, and the earlier we can have them working together and understanding each other better, I think that really sets everyone up for, a better future.
Katherine: Completely agree. And this is a party that we're trying to build. And I think that every generation does that, trying to build a better society for our children and the generation after us, and if we want to build that society, we have to model it in our education system.
Arthur: Wow.So true. You started talking a little bit about IncludeNJ when you were introducing yourself. Can you share a little bit more about the organization with us? Things like their mission and vision and the core values of includeNJ
Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. So as I said, IncludeNJ is a fairly new organization and we are coming into New Jersey as the least inclusive of all of the school districts, all the states. We're coming in as a tool for parents. We're supporting and empowering the family so all the families of students with disabilities because we feel like we need that kind of networking and advocacy to come from a kind of a groundswell of parents and caregivers and all of the people basically in the students lives that are fighting for their right to a free and appropriate public education.
So our mission is to support parents, and guardians. And I'm reading it because we just updated it and I'm so excited that we did. Support parents, guardians, caregivers, and their families to advocate for inclusion, equity and belonging and education. So that's for students with disabilities from age 3 to 21.
So like I said, we want to run the gamut from pre-K all the way to transition planning.
We want to ensure that the parents have someone they can go to, or community, that they can go to that also agrees that inclusive education is research-backed and is the way to go.
Arthur: Yeah, I love that a recurring theme is collaboration through this conversation and so many other conversations I've had on the podcast. It’s so true because I can remember as I've shared with you and other guests, I was born with a disability, so I've had it my whole life and going to school, I can remember what you said about advocating for your own child. I can remember my parents doing the same thing and, the mama and papa bear came out of them to make sure that I had what I was supposed to have in the general education setting.
Arthur: I was young, so I don't of course, I don't know everything that was going on. But from my perception, I can recall that it just seemed like, it was just my parents. There were never other parents that were involved.
Like I said, having a collaborative effort to make a change. So to hear that organizations like IncludeNJ and others like NJCIE are working together to make sure that, as you said, everyone in that child's life is on the same page to really move that child forward to reach their full potential.
It is really encouraging to hear. Really great to hear, and I'm proud to really be a part of NJCIE, and the work that they are doing to make these changes happen. And in our great state of New Jersey.
Katherine: Well, NJCIE is an amazing organization and they are what I'm seeing with NJCIE is that they are really going in at the school level, at the district level. So going in on that side of it
What IncludeNJ does is give a voice to the parents on the other side of it and really give them a friend on the inside that knows like knows what's happening. I know when I first started meeting with the school and started having these special education meetings for my own child, I had no idea and I had no idea where to look and what were my rights as a parent.
Katherine: Am I allowed to come in and see what's happening in the classroom? Am I allowed to get any kind of information from the school? And the school wasn't forthcoming on giving me like, here's what you can do. The school wasn't forthcoming on telling me like, this is your right to be able to have all of this information on what's happening with your student throughout the year and all of this collaboration.
So going into it, we actually have former special education leaders that help out and speak directly with parents and review their IEPs or review their final four designations and give advice and advice on how to advocate for their own students. And if that's exhausted that the parent is not able to do that on their own.
We have special education professionals that have been in districts for years and years that are now retired from the districts that can come in and advocate for the student and be there as a support for the parent so that they're getting all of the information they need to really collaborate with the school, which is what we all want. We just want to come in and be able to work with the school as a partner to come in and ensure that the student has the education that they deserve.
Arthur: Yes, the partnership is key. It's so important to have those partnerships with everyone nvolved, because it takes everybody to move hat student forward and to again, have that collaboration with everybody is really key.
Katherine: right
Arthur: Yes. So my last question I have for you is: Why do you feel it is important to include parents and caregivers in the inclusive education conversation? And the second part of that group, this question is what positive impact do you feel that parents or caregivers can bring to the inclusive education conversation?
Katherine: Well, yeah, that definitely goes off more into what I was just alluding to about the partnership, right? So having the parents at the table and having them working directly with the educators and being really involved in the student's care and the students education moving forward, that ensures that at home they are learning as well that the education doesn't stop when they walk out of the school building, that education continues and it's all coming from different directions, but leading the student to the same place and giving the student education that they deserve and that they are entitled to.
It's also important that parents are educated on what their rights are in the state of New Jersey. And a lot of that information is buried. And it's not easy to go just Google and figure it out because everything is in legalese and it's all there's so much out there that sifting through it can be time-consuming.
And on top of that, it's just confusing different directions that you can go in with your own student's education.
Katherine: So being able to sit down with the school and come up with a plan and have that plan agreed to by everyone in the room, that is just that is exactly what our students need. So that's the importance of having parents in there for inclusive education.
Also, some parents don't understand the research behind inclusion. Some parents will be told, you know, the best thing for your student is to be pulled out. The best thing for your student is to be in a segregated space and that's not the case. We've got years and years of research backing that up, that that is not what's best for the students.
It's not what's best for the students on either side of it. The general education students that aren't dealing with the special education and the special education students, it doesn't work for anybody.
What works is to have everyone working together in the classroom because everyone is learning from everyone else in that setting. And it's a shame that that information isn't as readily available to parents.
Katherine: So that's another reason that they should be fully engaged and present and asking for inclusive education, because our laws say that we have we're supposed to be delivering a least restrictive environment to all students and the least restrictive environment isn't segregation in any way, the least restrictive environment is keeping them with their peers in their general education classroom.
Arthur: Right. Yeah, That is, like you said, the research and the law are, you know, everything is there. It's written out that, inclusive education is, the best way to go. And, it's really great. Again, all the work that you all are doing there to make sure that the parents are educated about inclusion, inclusive education, they can figure it out together with you all and the other people and the other people involved in their child's education, like what's best for their child.
And I can definitely relate to, as you said, how information is just not out there. It's not easy to find sometimes. I can remember that again with my parents just looking for things and trying to figure things out. And this was I was a child in the eighties and nineties. And so, you know, the Internet wasn’t, Google wasn't there really when I was younger.
Arthur: So it was even a little more difficult to find information, I'm sure, for my parents. But, I'm glad that parents have that resource, the resources available to them through IncludeNJ, and the great work you're doing there.
Katherine: So back in August as school is just kind of ramping up to get started, we did a webinar for parents on our Facebook page and we've left that there as just a resource for parents so that if they have questions about going into IEP meetings and things like that, we're a resource for them.
So that recording is available on our Facebook page.
Arthur: Great. Thank you so much for mentioning that. We will be sure to include the link to your Facebook page in the show notes so everyone can go view that webinar with the much needed information to get the school year started. So school is up in full force at this point.
So it would be a great resource for parents to have access to that. So thank you for bringing that up.
Katherine: Absolutely.
Arthur: So thank you. Thank you for this conversation and again, for sharing your information with us about yourself and IncludeNJ and looking forward to connecting with you again at some point for some other projects and things.
So I hope you enjoy the rest of your day and we will be in touch soon.
Katherine: Okay. Thank you so much for having me.
Arthur: Yes, you're welcome. And thank you,
Today, I welcome you back for part two of my conversation with Christopher Conklin On this episode, Chris tells us how he defines inclusive education and shares why he is not a fan of the pull-out resource room model for special education.
On today's episode, I welcome my guest, Christopher Conklin. Chris is the superintendent of the Caldwell-West Caldwell Public School District in New Jersey. This is part one of our conversation.
Join me as I welcome Chris along with Fred from NJCIE. We discussed Chris's 30 years as an educator and we found out his thoughts on the topic of what characteristics make a good leader.
On today’s episode, I welcome my guest Dr. Jessica Neu. Jessica is one of the NJCIE Honors recipients of 2023. Jessica is the Director of Curriculum and Instruction for the Perth Amboy School District. Join our conversation as we discuss some of the inclusive programs Perth Amboy has implemented to create a district-wide culture of inclusion.
TranscriptArthur: This is the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education NJCIE, where we talk about inclusive education, why it works, and how to make it happen. The NJCIE Honors recognizes local champions who are making a difference in inclusive education for schools, children and families in New Jersey. On today's episode, I welcome my guest, Dr. Jessica Neu.
Jessica is one of the NJCIE honors recipients of 2023. Jessica is the director of Curriculum and Instruction for Perth Amboy School District. Join our conversation as we discuss some of the inclusive programs Perth Amboy has implemented to create a district-wide culture of inclusion.
Arthur: So I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by the New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. I'm your host, Arthur Aston, and I am happy to welcome my guest on today's show, Dr. Jessica Neu. So, Jessica, thank you for joining me today for this podcast in this conversation.
Jessica: Oh, thank you for having me. Glad to be here.
Arthur Yes. So you are one of the 2023 NJCIE honors recipients. So congratulations on that. And we were just talking about the videos that we create for our honors recipients. And I was just telling you how I really enjoyed your video.
Jessica: Thank you. They are so beautifully done. Yes.
Arthur: So to start the conversation, can you just share a little bit with us about yourself, who you are, what you do? And I always like to ask people to include something fun that you like to do in your free time. If you have any.
Jessica: Well, thank you for the introduction. I am Dr. Jessica Neu, and I'm a very proud New Jersey educator who has a passion for equity and inclusive education.
I earned an undergraduate degree in special education from Penn State University. I earned a master's in Seton Hall in leadership management and policy. I have a graduate certificate from Rutgers in Applied Behavior Analysis and a Ph.D. from Columbia University in teaching as applied behavior analysis. I was a general and special education teacher, and I am now going on nine years of central office leadership experience, formerly as a special education director and now as the director of Curriculum and Instruction.
So, I have some free time. I really do enjoy my work. So I do put a lot of time into the work, but I do exercise often. I love to travel, and I just love hanging out with my husband, spending time with my friends and family.
Arthur: Yes, that's always fun. Hanging out with friends and family and the summertime here in Jersey is always a good time.
Yeah. So that's great. Can you share with us what inclusive education means to you?
Jessica: So inclusive education, to me, is the greatest equalizer in education. It means providing individualized, authentic, sustained and really meaningful educational experiences in the general education setting for all students. I believe that it is the core belief that everybody really belongs. So what better way to prepare students for post-secondary than providing them with inclusive educational opportunities that mirror the diverse world that we live in?
I truly believe that that is the ultimate role of any educator.
Arthur: Yeah, that is so, so true, like the diverse world that we live in. As I shared with you and, I've shared on the podcast before that I have a disability, I was born with it and just realizing that I, as a person with a disability, have a place in the world and, need to be included.
Especially thinking back to my school years, elementary and middle school and high school, and how I was thankfully always included in things because in society outside of that, after college, like you're expected to be included in the workplace and, all those other spaces out in the real world outside of the classroom.
So it's great to be able to have that experience start when you're young in the classroom and just give for those students with disabilities and the students without to have that experience of all being together. And, just figuring things out together is really important.
Jessica: Yeah, that's what we're preparing all students for. We're preparing them for post-secondary where they want to go on to college or join the workforce. They have to be ready and have the skills that they need to be successful in whatever it is that they want to do. And a part of that is being included in society. And our society is extremely diverse.
Arthur: Yes, absolutely. And as you mentioned, when you were introducing yourself, you are the director of curriculum and instruction for the Perth Amboy Public Schools, which is the most inclusive urban district in New Jersey. That's really great to hear.
Jessica: Yes! yes! yes! yes!
Arthur: That’s really great. So can you share some of the things that you and your colleagues there have implemented in the district to try to promote inclusion?
I'm thinking of like your Panther Life program and the unified sports Program. And I'm sure you've done a few other things there as well.
Jessica: Yeah, we are so, so proud of this accomplishment and being the largest urban, inclusive school district, public school district in the state of New Jersey is something that we hold near and dear to our hearts.
I have the fortunate opportunity to work alongside many like-minded leaders and staff, so I'm very lucky in Perth Amboy. We have expanded our inclusion opportunities for all students at the elementary level and we provided specialized research-based instructional supports, especially in the area of reading, to help promote inclusive practices for all students.
Yes. So our Panther Life program is something that we are very proud of. Students at the high school level are able to engage in meaningful work-based learning experiences and community-based instruction to really prepare them for post-secondary. We have three seasons of unified sports, which is competitive in which non-disabled than disabled peers compete. We have a soccer, basketball, and spring track program in our entire high school community really rallies around that program.
We have a very skilled and dedicated teacher, Dr. Amanda Martin, who is also the coach of many of these seasons and we wouldn't be where we are with this program without the support of all of those staff members and leaders at that high school.
Arthur: That’s so great to hear of so many programs that you have. I love the Panther Life program concept of working, just really having something to do there in the school and, you know, learning the ins and outs of all.
All of that goes into work and running a business. In the video, I think it was like a coffee shop or something.
Jessica: Yes a little pop-up that we do to expand upon that when we move into our new high school in 24-25 to open up a cafe. But the students really are in the community working in Walgreens or the Salvation Army or the Housing Authority.
We've got many community businesses that we partner with to provide students with those experiences so that they have multiple opportunities to practice different career skills throughout their high school career with us, to really prepare them for anything that they would want to do when they graduate. So we like having the students out in the community for those authentic natural experiences as best as possible.
But of course, we love having them in the building too, because the coffee's great and in the winter they have hot chocolate and so there's never a bad day with coffee and hot chocolate.
Arthur: That’s right. That is right. I'm not much of a coffee drinker, but I can agree when I do have coffee, it's like, okay, this is good. This is a good day.
Jessica: One of the best things I love about the program, too, is that they partner with the YMCA in town. And so instead of taking a traditional P.E. class at the high school, the students go to the YMCA at least one day a week, and some students go for a work experience. But everybody goes to learn about physical fitness and to maintain healthy bodies.
And so that partnership has also been really important to us.
Jessica: Wow, that's really great. Having partnerships within the community is very helpful. I think one of the things that I have learned in my life, being in my forties now, is a lot of the, I guess, misunderstandings about those who have, who live with disabilities comes from the lack of knowledge that people have and the lack of conversation that happens.
There's not much conversation about people with disabilities. So the more that we can expose the outside world to disabilities and have these conversations and have these partnerships and relationships with companies and organizations like you mentioned the YMCA, that's really, really great.
Arthur: And it builds the relationship. And it also, raises the awareness of disability.
Jessica: It raises the capacity of our community members. They're learning right alongside of us and the students. And, there are lots of times when we have to provide some friendly reminders, please talk to the student, not to not to the job coach. And but having those conversations has been very helpful to us and the partner and most importantly, to the student.
Arthur: Yes. Yeah. And to move on to our next question, I think through doing this podcast and interviewing different guests and having these conversations, one thing that comes up quite often is how are individualistic, and individualized, each case is for people who have disabilities, and inclusion looks different for every district and again, look different for every student. So can you share some of the success stories you have had with non-English speaking students who are classified for special education?
And can you also describe some of the particular challenges that may have come up?
Jessica: Mm hmm. So certainly one of the biggest challenges that have faced us and probably many districts out there is the challenge with hiring Spanish-speaking and bilingual certified special education teachers, especially at the secondary level, when we're also looking for content certification, content expertise.
So that has been a barrier. certainly. We have a beautiful dual language program in which we service over a thousand students pre-K through grade eight. We do have students with disabilities, those in the preschool dual language program, and we are looking this year to finally expand and launch a special education program at the dual language school starting kindergarten and at the elementary level.
We wanted to start this years ago and then Covid happened and then it became very difficult to find again a bilingual certified special education teacher. But we feel like we are ready with personnel this year and we're ready to launch. And we have a fantastic director of Special Services and an equally great and dynamic principal of the Rose Lopez School who are both really committed to this work and ensuring that students with disabilities will be successful in the dual language program.
Jessica: The goal of a dual language program is for students to be able to be bi-literate in that they are reading, writing, speaking and listening in more than one language. So in our district, the other language that we teach in is Spanish. So students will be bi-literate in both English and Spanish by the time that they have left our middle school, which is eighth grade and usually many years before that.
So we're hoping to provide students with disabilities that same opportunity this year as we have in our preschool level and working to expand that.
Arthur: Wow. That's really great. I love that.
Jessica: I love that too! I love it so much, because it's equity. It's just it goes beyond providing the services you're required to provide in an IEP.
I think that the IEP is a great start, but we should be doing so much more like we talked earlier about the playgrounds. There is a difference between access and inclusion and what inclusion really means is that students have opportunities to meaningfully participate in all programs that we offer, and it's our role and responsibility to help the student get there and make sure that he or she has what he needs to be successful.
So I love that I have all of my faith in our director as special services, in our principal of the Rose Lopez School to launch this to this year.
Arthur: Yes. And I like what you said that, you know, the IEP is a great place to start. Going above and beyond that is so important because you never know, what each child is capable of achieving until you raise that bar and you really, push them and challenge them to, you know, meet those goals and to, keep pushing them.
I think that's a really great thing to mention, You know, IEP is a great, great place to start, but to go above and beyond
Jessica: I feel like compliance and the special education code and the administrative code that's the minimum that's the minimum of what we're expected to do. I think ethically, as educators, we should be doing much more and going beyond compliance.
Arthur: Yes, we should. you're right about that. It's so it's so great.
Again, I shared with you and before on the podcast, just seeing how far things have come since I was a child and going to school and seeing where they're heading and, having this conversation with you now to, you know, hear about the goals there for your school district. It's really encouraging and really makes me happy to hear that this type of work is being done and people are committed to it, to making it happen.
Arthur: You talked a little bit about your time in your studies at Columbia University. Can you talk a little bit more about that and the research work that you did there on topics related to the science of teaching and more specifically the implementation of Applied Behavior analytic teaching strategies for all students?
A message from your host, in the following answer Jessica mentions she graduated in 2023, when the actual year is 2013
Jessica: I really, really was so fortunate to be a part of that program. And I graduated in 2023. The teaching as Applied Behavior Analysis Program at Columbia University provides graduate level students both theoretical coursework during the evening at the university and during the day provides practical experience in partner lab classroom sites. The comprehensive application of behavior analysis to schooling, or what we call CABAS
This was founded by Dr. Robert Douglas Greer over 40 years ago, and it's an instructional technology based on data. So CABAS is a learner-driven, scientifically validated instructional set of procedures. And we implement those procedures to address student learning and performance behaviors.
So in the CABAS classrooms, generally, a master's level university student is assigned as a teaching assistant and the PhD students are assigned as the teachers of the classrooms.
All students are provided with university-level supervisory support and in we apply the tactics, behavior, analytic tactics and strategies when students are experiencing learning difficulties. And we also conduct study replication and new research as it applies to learning procedures implemented with students with and without disabilities. So my research was on observational learning and in fact there were no disabled students in my dissertation, which was published in a couple of years after I graduated.
I don't recall the year, but I just find that remarkable. It's just how it ended up. It wasn't intended to be that way, but the teaching tactics and strategies of applied Behavior analysis are really applicable to all learners. We measure teacher performances, we measure each student's response. Each student response data are collected and those data are graphed and they are analyzed using a decision tree protocol, which is a research-based algorithm for analyzing student data.
Jessica: And when we identify a problem in the context of learning, we go to the research and the literature, and we select a research-based tactic to help the student acquire that skill that we're working on. So we measure the learn units, we call them that teacher-student back and forth interactions, and and we tie them to the state standards.
So we measure the number of student learning objectives met and the number of New Jersey student learning standards also met. So students are successful. And when I taught a fifth grade class in the CABAS program, students at that level of verbal behavior were also collecting and recording their own data. They were using the decision tree protocol themselves and some of them were even selecting research-based tactics to implement.
So CABAS is usually what people sometimes don't think it is. They hear the word applied behavior analysis and they assimilate it with a self-contained autism program usually, and they assimilate it with discrete trial instruction. But it is so much more than that programed instruction, personalized system of instruction and direct instruction all come out of the applied behavior analytic research.
And with the CABAS program, a lot of the students that we have worked with, like I said, our general education students.
Arthur: What advice can you give to school districts that may think that inclusion is difficult to achieve?
Jessica: I don’t know, if it's inclusion or it's just anything new or different, I would take the approach the same approach with inclusion as I would most other things that I may want to change from an organizational structure standpoint.
So what I did when I first came to Perth Amboy, certainly with also the help of the NJCIE, thankfully you guys are around to help with this. I prepared and presented the data to all of our key stakeholders and I think presenting the data and sharing information and knowledge is very powerful and most of the time and in many of the cases when I was working with stakeholders in Perth Amboy, people were just weren't aware of the data and they weren't aware of the research on inclusion.
Jessica: So those are sort of two, first easy steps; is gathering information and data, sharing it with key stakeholders, and then taking a look at the research and also sharing that with key stakeholders. So to me, that's the first step in the process. I think when you are wanting to make any type of systematic change, certainly from that point, hearing the concerns, the needs, the strengths of the key stakeholders and what they think that we would need to move forward in terms of resources, professional development, different types of applications, personnel is also really important.
So hearing folks and their potential concerns and needs that they may have currently in the classroom and struggles and ideas and coming up with solutions together and always trying to keep the conversation solution-oriented is a very important part of the process and coming up with a common understanding of a core set of values and beliefs that everybody can then hang their hat on.
So it's a multilayered process to get to really where you want to be. But I think if you skip any of those steps along the way, you may have some disgruntled folks that you're working with. I do feel that everybody should have a voice in the process. I have learned so much more when I have genuinely included other people in the process, because that's the beauty of working with a team of stakeholders. Not one person can ever think of anything on their own.
And so always having a team behind you and beside you and in front of you is so important to help you reach that goal. And then as the leader sharing out the goals and a timeline of when you want to meet those goals is also really important. So guiding with a clear vision is really, really critical.
Arthur: Yes, having the right people involved and I like what you said, keeping things solution-oriented. like, keep your eye on the prize and what the end goal is. Because also, as you mentioned, anything where you're trying to change has challenges. It's going to be difficult and hard to change it.
Jessica: Yes, it's hard.
Arthur: So anything that you're trying to accomplish is, you're going to come up with the roadblocks and, you have to detour a little bit and, but always remaining the solution focused is, great, great advice. So thank you.
Jessica: Yeah. Like I appreciate when people identify the challenges. I think the challenge is or when folks try to identify, you know, things along the way that may pose a challenge to what we're trying to get to is great because that will only make for a smoother process in the end. I would hate to have somebody say, Well, I probably should have told you six months ago, we don't have the money for this.
Or, you know, I probably should have told you three months ago, we've never been trained in X, so knowing barriers up front is important. But then coming up with some solutions to help with those barriers I think is equally as important.
Jessica: So I'm here, I'm all ears. Come to me with your problems and your challenges, but also come to me with your solutions.
And your idea is for moving forward.
Arthur: Yes. So important! So as we wrap up this conversation, can you share how the curriculum and instruction department can support inclusive education?
Jessica: in every way. I’m hoping are there at some point while we're still here on this beautiful earth we won't even have a special education department any longer.
It should just be the office of Curriculum and Instruction, and we support all learners. But everything that we do through the Office of Curriculum and Instruction certainly does include our multilingual learners, our students with disabilities. And it may be as simple as a presentation to staff on a new reading program. But that new reading program also has to provide accommodations and modifications for students with disabilities.
For students who are multilingual learners, staff presentations, family presentations, curriculum guides, resources that we adopt all have to have all students in mind. We're no longer talking about most. We're talking about all.
Arthur: Yes, everyone. everybody. Yes, that is so true, and that is inclusion. Like you said, it doesn't say most, it says all.
Jessica: Yeah. Perth Amboy has always done a great job with that. They have always done a fantastic job with that and that's why I, I'm fortunate to be in the position that I'm in I'm so grateful that they have given me this opportunity to be on the curriculum side because now I'm I'm challenging myself to continue to take what they have done that's been so great and to continue to enhance it and make it better.
So they've gone beyond compliance. But I want to continue pushing myself to push them to go further beyond compliance. Compliance.
Arthur: Yes. Dr. Jessica Nu, thank you for this time, this conversation, sharing the great things you all are doing there in your district to promote inclusion. And, I'm very happy that we actually met in person before I interviewed you.
We met at the summer conference a few weeks ago, so it was great to introduce myself to you then and to have a more in-depth conversation with you now during this podcast. So thank you so much for your time and best of luck to you all there and I will definitely be in touch with you soon.
Jessica: Okay Thank you so much.
Arthur: Great. We thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast. This podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE. Be sure to subscribe on YouTube, Spotify or Apple Podcasts, and don't forget to follow us on social media at @NJCIE. Until next time.
On today’s episode, I welcome my guest Alison Zylinski. Alison is the Director of Special Services for Bradley Beach School District. She is one of NJCIE’s Honors recipients of 2023. Join our conversation as we explore what inclusive education means to Alison, and what advice she has for districts that think inclusion is difficult to achieve.
Transcript Arthur: This is the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education NJCIE, where we talk about inclusive education why it works and how to make it happen. The NJCIE Honors recognizes local champions who are making a difference in inclusive education for schools. Children and families in New Jersey. On today's episode, I welcome my guest, Alison Zylinski.
Alison is the director of Special services for Bradley Beach School District. She is one of NJCIE honors recipients of 2023. Join our conversation as we explore what inclusive education means to Alison and what advice she has for districts that think inclusion is difficult to achieve.
Arthur: I would like to welcome everyone back to the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. I'm your host, Arthur Aston, and I am happy to welcome my guest to the podcast today, Alison Zylinski.
And thank you for joining me today for this episode and to share your story and your experience.
Alison: Well, thanks for inviting me. I'm very excited to talk about inclusion today.
Arthur: Yes. So we have you on as a guest today because you were recently awarded with the NJCIE Honors as one of the recipients for this year.
And so we are really excited about that and the work that you're doing. So I'm looking forward to having you, you know, share all the great things you're doing there in your school district.
Alison: Thank you.
Arthur: Yes. So to start off the conversation, can you just share a little bit with the audience about yourself, who you are, what you do, and some things you like to do in your free time? If you have any free time.
Alison: So I am a social worker. I started in community mental health. I started my career working with families and children involved in the Division of Youth and Family Services, which is now our division of child protection and permanency. And so I used to do what's called family preservation. I used to go into families and try to help the families maintain custody of their children.
So whatever needed to happen happened. And so that really started my career working with families and working with children. I've always been really excited about education. I've always enjoyed being a student.
And so when the opportunity came to go into school social work, it was a natural fit for me. And so I've been a school social worker for probably almost 25 years, and I've been at Bradley Beach here for 18 years.
And I never thought I'd be here that long. I started as a part-time school social worker here and just worked and just fell in love with the community and serving this community, it's really been sort of like my passion, my life's work. And so this is where I chose to stay for that long. And I don't know where my path will take me in the future, but here I am.
Alison: I have four children at home, so I don't have a lot of free time. So when I'm not working because work takes up a lot of my time, I'm trying to be a mom to them and spend time with my family. Fun fact is, I'm a snowboarder, so you might not think that, but I started snowboarding in my twenties and my husband and I still enjoy doing it. So all my kids, I taught all my kids how to snowboard, so that was fun.
Arthur: Oh, that's fun. Yeah, it is. It's a lot of fun. My friends, they always find, like, random things on Instagram or TikTok of, like, accessible extreme sports. And they're just like, You have to try it.
Alison: Yeah. I am not extreme. My board does not leave the snow,
Arthur: They are like, you have to try it. Look, it's accessible. And I'm like, Yeah, okay.
So yeah that seems like a lot of fun. I'll definitely be checking that out, one of these days for sure.
Arthur: So I always like to ask this question of our guest and that is what does inclusive education mean to you?
Alison: It means equality.
It means everyone having equal access to good instruction and to the general education curriculum. And I feel like that's the starting point. Here we have a mindset that when we do have a child that's eligible for services, we go with what do they need? Not where or what placement are we putting or what program are we putting them in?
Because here it's assumed they're staying in their current class, in their current program. Where we going to fill in those needs and help them access what they need to access to progress and to support them.
Alison: So it's equality and over the years seeing comparing because I worked in schools for a long time and I've worked in schools with self-contained classrooms and I've worked with pull-out resource classrooms and seeing that and honestly, the progression of students educational skills and abilities, it doesn't really change whether you're in a smaller class or a larger class.
But what does change is their ability to form relationships with their typical developing peers and their friends in the general education classroom.
Alison: It limits their ability to access rich conversation and really hear from a wide range of students with a wide range of abilities. And so so we're removing those limits and just giving students what they need and it's not always, it's sometimes it's a challenge sometimes.
But when you have students with learning challenges, it's filling in where they have those weaknesses and working with their strengths. When you have students with behavioral challenges, it's a lot of work in trying to support them and have them correct them, which is difficult because sometimes it can, disrupt the classroom and what's going on.
But we've had great success here because we are very like a family here. And it's all about relationships. And I truly believe I know that we've saved lives because some of my students that we've been able to maintain in general education if they were in another district, they probably would have been placed out of district.
When you when you change a child's trajectory and put them in an out of district, then their their path back is very long and difficult. And whether it would even happen. So I don't know. It's one case at a time. It's one student at a time. Everybody's different. General education. Kids are different as much as special education students.
Alison: And I also supervise our English Language Learner program. And so it's the inclusion is about them, too. It's about, although they are learning English as a second language, they should also have access to general education just like everybody else and then filling in what they need.
Arthur: I love that you've said that every individual is that, they're an individual.
So, inclusion may look different for them and it may look different for the next student. And that's just so true. And it's so important to mention. So I'm glad that you brought that up.
And also the students who are learning English and the challenges they may face making things inclusive for them and helping them learn is also, you know, really important to mention.
So I'm glad you brought those those two things up.
Arthur: Also in your introduction of yourself, you mentioned that you are working with the Bradley Beach School District and you are the director of special services there. So can you share with us some of the ways that you and your colleagues there have worked to make your school more inclusive?
Alison: It's been it's been a process, but I feel like it's become part of our culture here. And it started not when I was in this position. I certainly did not ignite this, but I've really supported it and made it sort of my vision to extend it and, grow it.
One of the things is when you start in preschool and you have all kids coming into preschool and you're saying all your kids belong in a preschool class together, there shouldn't be a separate class for preschool because they're all learning how they're learning social and emotional skills and some academic readiness skills.
But just learning how to be a learner is what they're doing in preschool. And so all children come into preschool and some are ready to be learners and some don't even know where to begin. And then we're supporting them through that process. But that’s where we start. And then so when we start with preschool and we support them and we give them what they need, they're then that naturally progresses into kindergarten.
And you certainly need the support of resources. You need the support of your board. And our Board of Education here at Bradley Beach has been very supportive of making sure that we have the resources that we need. And because, I mean, in reality, if I just said a bunch of like all our resource classes, I could take my students out of Gen-Ed, and I can service them with much less staff, you know, and but that's really not in their benefit. That's not what they need.
Alison: That’s not life. When they leave, when they leave education, they're not going to have somebody make accommodations for them in different settings. And in the workplace. And so it's really it's really kind of continuing and growing. You know, some of the foundations that we had here and having an administration team that is in favor of inclusion and having a board of education, of favor and willing to support those resources and seeing what a difference it makes in our students because you can see it everywhere when you see it on the playground because students that have they have a disability, but they're socializing and interacting with their peers just like anybody else.
They're forming those relationships. It makes it all worthwhile. And I see it every day, so it makes it really special.
Arthur: What you just said is really special that, you know, you have all of the support, like you said, from the school board to the administration level down to all of the people you work with and see every day in your school building.
And the fact of starting it, like you said from the very beginning and preschool that this is what a classroom looks like. And most importantly, this is what the world looks like when you're outside of the classroom. Everybody is together and, having that, visual at such a young age that, everybody belongs here together is very strong and very powerful to to see.
The students will remember that for sure, as they grow older and the experiences they've had there.
Arthur: So you mentioned that you have been at Bradley Beach for so many years. Can you share just one of the many student success stories that you have seen during your time there at the District?
Alison: Just one?
Arthur: Well, you can share a few if you'd like.
Alison: I’m passionate about reading. I think reading is essential for all students, all individuals to be able to function in our world. And so when I do when we do have struggling readers, it's it is a big concern.
And that's really where I'm going to focus a lot of attention on is to see those students progress in that area. And we have great reading specialists here. We have some good investments, a good programs. We have great special education teachers here that are supporting those students and developing those skills. And I've seen I've seen pretty incredible cases of students.
A lot of times we get students that are that are identified as eligible for special education. They come in from different districts and they might come in at third grade or fourth grade, and they're reading on a first-grade level. And so we we put them in, we give them intervention and we monitor their progress. And I've seen I've seen a handful of students move up three or four grade levels and get right near like right near below grade level in their reading, which is which is tremendous.
So The good thing about us is we're small. I know every student's first name and so you're not going to fall through the cracks and we're going to and everyone's going to do our best to make sure that you have everything that we can provide you before you leave here, for our students.
We are a pre-K to 8 District. So then they do go on to high school. So that's really our focus.
Alison: So I've had students that have said I remember when I came here and I couldn't read and now I can read. They say I remember when I couldn't read and because I came here, you know, later on, like in their mid-primary years and they remember struggling with that and now they can and I can probably name right now, five different students that have just made incredible growth in that area and so that's really great.
I have five students on the spectrum that we have in our Gen-Ed classroom who are with very social peers. And so they become part of their classroom. And they develop social relationships. And we know that that's one of the areas where students on the spectrum with autism they struggle with that social piece, that communication piece.
And so I always think to myself, like if you're in an autism program, and you're you struggle with that socialization, communication and you're in a classroom with other students that are likely struggle with socialization and communication, and how is that going to help support your socialization of communication? If everyone else is struggling and maybe the teacher doesn't struggle, maybe the teacher can do that for you, but that's not natural.
And so I don't know. I feel like looking at those those students with deficits in their communication and their socialization and their language is they need to be in language-rich environments. And that's Gen-Ed, and that's not self-contained. So just those are a couple of examples of what we do as far as academics.
Alison: And then we've had really significant behavioral challenges. We've had students that came here and we worked really hard to get their behavior under control and then they would leave. They left and in their new district, they were put in a classroom and then they came back to us. We put them right back into Gen-Ed, and it and it and it worked.
And we were able to give them what they needed emotionally, and socially. And so for them to function and, at times it's a lot of work and you question it and you wonder how long to go on, but those are just some examples of what we're able to do here.
Alison: And I know one of your questions was, are we able to do it because we're small?
Yes or no.
I don't think it's impossible at other places. But I just feel like you have to be dedicated to the cause. You have to be dedicated. You have to be you have to have the resources to be able to do that. And you have to know that it’s worth it. It's all that effort and energy is certainly benefits these students.
Arthur: Yes. Yes. To everything that you've said. It's great. It's really great. It has to be rewarding for you all to hear, like you said, those stories of students who have gone on to high school and beyond to come back and say, I remember like you said, when I couldn't read, but, I worked with you all and you all worked with those students and, taught them how to read and things like that.
And that's just it's really, really heartwarming for me to hear like those types of success stories because that's what they really are. It's a true success and I think a testament to, as you mentioned before, the dedication that you have from everybody in the district at all levels who are so committed to helping to make these changes happen and then to make the inclusion, part of the culture of the district and of what the students see and experience every day.
Alison: And we definitely set up a structure like that. We have tried to develop, and one of my focuses is, providing time within the school day to give students what they need. So when they do need more they're not missing something to get something.
And it doesn't always work that some of our students need a lot. And there's not only great time within the schedule to a certain amount right? Because there's a lot that we have to fill within a student's schedule. But even given a little bit of that time so that when we do include kids, we are able to give them supplemental instruction.
In the middle school, there are a lot of times they're not working on those basic skills anymore. But if that's what they need, then we kind of deliver that through a supplemental instruction type of program in that is what I need period to support their learning.
And our teachers are great with that because we have a strong M.T.S.S. program, too. So even before they get to special education, we're doing intervention with them.
We're doing tier one, two, three, or we're getting them, when they're not making progress, we move on, and then sometimes they do come to me. But when they come to special ed, when we do test them and we evaluate them, it might change the sum of the services that we give them. But it doesn't change their placement or their program.
Alison: We just provide them with additional programming. So that kind of strategic planning in your master schedule in seeing how that you can accommodate has to be a priority of everybody’s. Your district has to allow you to do that, and be okay with that.
I feel like it's good for all students because even students who might not need reading intervention at that time. Some students are high fliers and they can get enrichment. They can be pushed a little further. Or sometimes students need a lot of remediation. They might not need consistent intervention, but maybe they are having trouble comprehending a certain lesson or unit, and the teacher had the opportunity to come back to them and work with them on areas where they're struggling.
So it's really it's really beneficial for all learners, as far as I'm concerned. And so it allows that time.
My teachers are fantastic. My, instructional days are fantastic. They, make sure the students have what they need. They're always coming to me. I want to pull Johnny out and I want to I want to I want to work with him during during the period because I feel like he needs help in this area.
I’m not having to go look for them. They're coming to me. And this is what I want to do. And I'm like, Yeah, go. Yeah. So it's good stuff.
Arthur: Yeah, That's so great to hear. Everybody is so together with making it happen. And, what advice can you give to schools and districts that may believe that inclusion is difficult to achieve?
Alison: Oh, I would probably agree that it is. It's not easy. It's easy to stay status quo. It's easy to continue on with your current levels of programming. And but I would say that it's worth the efforts and it's worth the commitment and it's worth it for the students and their experience.
Alison: I feel like if the district is trying to take that on, I feel that the first place to start is preschool, and eliminating self-contained classrooms from preschool, and starting to allow all students to be together in the classroom and and and strategic and develop that. I mean, certainly they the state rightfully so, talk about having, a ratio. You don't want to have a preschool classroom with 15 kids and have 7 of them be in high need of service.
That's not going to be good for anybody. So being are changing and allowing having integrated classrooms in every classroom so you can spread the needs out and make it more like a universal ratio that you see in society.
So just starting there, starting in your early childhood education, I think is a good place to start with inclusion.
Arthur: That was a really good answer that you said, you will agree, that it's not it's not easy. It’s not easy, but it is worth it. And to stick with it and to stay moving in that direction toward being fully inclusive, I think is a good thing to say.
Like anything can be challenging, but you just have to stick with it and know that it will be worth it in the end. And what you will see and achieve in the end is worth all of the trouble and challenges you may face along the way of the journey.
So you touched on this a little bit earlier in one of your answers, and I know in the NJCIE Honors video, you mentioned it as well, that you know, all of the students’ names, and I think that is so impressive.
I try to do okay with learning people's names, with some of the things that I but I do but it's like if I'm in the context of seeing them in a certain place, I can tell if I see them outside of it, it's like, Oh, no, I know where I might know you from, but I have no idea what their name is.
So, again, you touched on it a little bit, but I wanted to see if you had anything else to say about it. Do you believe it is easier to make change in a smaller district versus a larger district?
Alison: Since it's been a really long time since I've been in a big district, I can only go for my experience in a small district and imagine that it's difficult, but not impossible.
When you have a small school and I'm not the only that knows most of the students by name you create an environment where teachers are all about the students and creating these really close relationships because in primary grades you're with your teacher all day and everything else.
But then our kids don't go to a large middle school, they stay there in a pre-K to eight sort of school setting. They stay a little bit younger.
Within our middle school, they have teachers maybe for two years so they might have the same math teacher for two years or the same English teacher for two years, and so in that looping they really get to know the students and it enables that report to be there, and those relationships which are essential to then having students engage in learning and being ready to learn.
You can't do it without that relationship. So we excel at that. That's something that occurs just naturally because we have awesome staff here and because of the size of our school. So that foundation and that kind of culture then sets us up for success when we do have initiatives such as inclusion.
Alison: Once you start, there are things that happen that confirm your belief that this is the right thing to do. I see it all the time.
Because you do question And,, there are some students that need something different because it's certainly not a one size fits all. I have all my students in my school currently are included, but it doesn't mean that I won't have a student involved that might need something different, but for now, that's where we are.
And I see it even when we move students. Last year I moved a couple of my students out of a resource and I got rid of that class and I moved them into the general education classroom. And then at the middle school level and in sitting down the teacher or the teacher being surprised at what that student was able to do when they had that access to that general education curriculum.
And for the teacher to get excited about that. And so those are the little signs that you're like, yeah, this is this is why this is good stuff. This is what we should be doing. Because sometimes we create expectations, and it’s not with any malintent.
Alison: We have all the information and evaluations and data and we kind of have an expectation of where the student can perform. But when you went and you raise that ceiling and you give them opportunities to exceed what your expectations are, which is what students get in general education is they say they have those ceilings raised.
It's amazing sometimes what can happen because of that. So those are the opportunities that occur when you when you are able to do inclusion.
Arthur: Yes. That's like you said, to keep raising that ceiling and being impressed and surprised at what they can achieve because that new bar has been set for them.
And it's it's all great. And I really enjoyed this conversation with you, Alison.
So I thank you again for joining us for this episode of the podcast and sharing your own journey, your own story of working in the education world and working there in Bradley Beach to make the district and your school inclusive and keep up the great work you and all of your colleagues and coworkers there, it’s really great.
And again, it's a heartwarming thing to hear that, you know, districts are committed to making these changes to make inclusive classrooms a real thing, a true thing, and part of the culture. I love that you mentioned that. And just from the very beginning of preschool and making it something that the students see every day from the very beginning, is really helpful, Really important.
So thank you for joining us for this episode. And you take care.
Alison: Well, thanks for having me. And I just want to say that, the work that the NJCIE does, it provides the resources to our districts is incredible. I've taken advantage of the resources in my own district to make sure that my teachers are supported.
And I really would encourage other districts to do so as well. They are fabulous organization and New Jersey is at an advantage having that resource within our state. And again, if anyone ever needs any support or has any questions, they're free to reach out to me. And I appreciate the work that you're doing in promoting inclusion and providing information to people.
It’s a great thing. So thank you. Thank you for having me.
Arthur: Yes, you're welcome. And we will be in touch.
Alison: Okay, great. Thank you.
Arthur: You’re welcome. Thank you, too.
We thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast. This podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE.
Be sure to subscribe on YouTube, Spotify or Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to follow us on social media @NJCIE, Until next time.
On this episode of the podcast, I welcome my guest Dr. Teresa Herrero-Taylor. Teresa is the Director of Special Services In Jackson New Jersey. During our conversation, we discuss the challenges and barriers of inclusion from a statewide perspective, and also how schools can support parents who believe that separate placement is better for their children who have disabilities.
On this episode, I welcome my guest Deirdre Azzopardi. Deirdre is an Occupational Therapist, and during our conversation, we discuss how mindfulness and social-emotional learning can break down the barriers to create a more inclusive environment for all students.
MaryAnn Joseph joins me on this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast.. MaryAnn is a National Board Certified teacher, and is a teacher-leader as a current college professor and a former special education consultant with the New Jersey Department of Education. During our conversation, we discuss some important characteristics of what makes someone a leader, and the three essential leadership components of inclusive education
TranscriptArthur: This is the inclusion think tank podcast Brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education NJCIE. Where we talk about inclusive education, why it works, and how to make it happen.
On today’s episode, I welcome my guest, MaryAnn Joseph. MaryAnn is a National Board, Certified teacher, who has spent more than 40 years in the classroom throughout the nation, in both special education and general education settings. She is a teacher-leader as a current college professor and a former special education consultant with the New Jersey Department of Education.
During our conversation, we discuss some important characteristics of what makes someone a leader, and the three essential leadership components of inclusive education.
Arthur: I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. I am your host, Arthur Aston, and I am very happy to welcome my guest on the show today, MaryAnn Joseph.
MaryAnn, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm glad to speak with you again and to have you on as a guest today.
MaryAnn: My pleasure. Arthur, it's good to talk with you.
Arthur: Yes. So I start off every episode by asking a form of this question which is to ask my guest to introduce themselves. So can you share a little bit about your story and how you became interested in the world of inclusive education?
MaryAnn: So my story goes way back, Arthur. There are over 40 years of experience that I have clocked in this area of education, leaving high school in the seventies to pursue a degree in special education at Southern Connecticut State at that time, College, now a university. I was always interested in teaching, but I wondered what it would be like to teach kids with disabilities and what would that job look like.
And so I spent time in education preparing to teach. And as I did that, I realized that I was getting to know a lot about disabilities. In the seventies, we were all about labeling kids. Kids were kids with cognitive disabilities. Kids were kids with physical disabilities. We just labeled lots of things in regard to what kids might need or what kids had gaps in.
And I started doing that, being able to see different kinds of kids and worked with a lot of different kinds of kids at the quality Center in New Haven, in schools in New Haven. But I started wondering what I was going to do with them once I figured out what was wrong with them or what was right with them.
So I went over to the Department of Elementary Education and I said, Hey, I'm a student in the Special Education Department, and I take some classes in elementary ed, and believe it or not, that was not a common thing to happen in the seventies. They said, Oh, no, you get your classes in special ed. That's another building down on the other side of campus.
MaryAnn: After a lot of conversation and adding additional classes to my five-class load, to figure out not just what disabilities meant or what kids needed in terms of their gaps, but what they might learn.
That would be the education with everybody else who was learning mostly areas of reading and math, but I did that so that I could know as a teacher what to plan for, what to teach those kids in rooms that weren't in the same room as kids without disabilities.
That's where we were in the seventies, but that's where my first questions began.
Arthur: Wow. That's really great to hear that you were, interested right away when you were, taking college courses and just really interested in seeing how you can help those students with disabilities just to learn like everybody else and to even though they were in separate classrooms back then, and, you saw the need to, make that happen and to help them out.
I like what you said to find out what was right and what they could do and just really focus on that and make it happen. I love hearing the beginnings of people's journey into the world of inclusive education and to just seeing how they got to where they are.
And as you said, that's over 40 years ago, it’s just really, really cool.
MaryAnn: Well, thanks. Thanks. It was just a good, honest quest. Yes. To try and make classrooms the best they could for kids with disabilities.
Arthur: Yeah. So my next question is, how would you define inclusive education? What does inclusive education mean to you?
MaryAnn: Well, I think the first word that comes to mind is difficult. I think inclusive education is difficult. My role right now as a consultant and I work with school districts to try to include kids with disabilities, to try to build inclusive programming. I have to tell you it's not easy. It takes boldness, it takes patience, it takes lots of different pieces. And so I think it's hard to do or have inclusive education. That's the first word that comes to mind.
The second word that comes to mind is belonging. We want everybody to belong. We talk about these communities that we have as schools. We talk about schools as families, in fact, there is a school that in South Jersey has a big banner that you walk in that says, we are a family.
That's what schools are building these days, But we want it in an authentic way, not in a mascot way, not in an oh, it's so nice to take care of this person who looks different way, but a real true, authenticity. So words that are key to me when I think about inclusion is that it's difficult, is that it's about belonging, and is that it's about authenticity. Those three things are important.
Arthur: I love the authenticity part. That is, so true. It's not just we’re doing it because it's the thing that that's in right now. The cool thing to do, to really be authentic about it and to really, you know, just be true to what it is and really bring a sense, like you said, a sense of family, a sense of belonging and just true inclusion. That’s really great. I love that you mentioned the banner that hangs at the school.
MaryAnn: Yeah, it's great that I just love that banner. It's a great banner.
Arthur: Yeah, that really helps set the tone for, when you go in there and you see it, I'm sure it really helps set the tone for what that community means.
And that's I think the other thing about this community and, like I said, to go along with the belonging, it builds a sense of community and togetherness for everybody.
MaryAnn: Well,you make me wonder, you know, people will be listening to this podcast and thinking, what's my next step? What can I do?
Again, I work with a lot of schools like call School that a lot of people. And one of the things that has started to impress me is the way that people answer their phones, not the part that says we have currently changed our extensions, please listen carefully to the following absence. That part always cracks me up because it seems like everybody is changing their options.
But the thing that really gets me is we'll open up to a school district that will say ‘where all children read,’ ‘where all children can learn.’ Committed to quality and improving learning for all students. These kinds of statements may sound cliche, but they really set a tone. So we get introduced to a district in that first phone message or the first way that we are welcomed into their family or into their community.
So it is true, there are a lot of signs you can buy and Etsy is making a lot of money on things that tell us what inclusion might look like. But the truth is, in order to live it, we have to get it into our practice. So even the way that we answer our phones, the way that we sign our emails becomes a way that we can spread this mission. The importance of being inclusive.
Arthur: That is so very true. And I love what you said about the last part of signing your emails, the little quotes that people have and at the end of their signatures, like those are really, you know, you might think people don't pay attention to it, but a lot of people do.
And as you said, when you make a phone call someplace, how they start that conversation off with the voicemail. That is really, really true. And I think for me, I would say it's, you know, kind of just because it happens, I guess so often, as you said, it might sound cliche, some of them, because you hear those phrases often and all the time, but it really does.
it really does make a difference in how you are set, sets the tone for, you know, for of that experience with that school or that area, wherever you may be calling.
MaryAnn everything has to be complicated. We can make small steps in our personal patterns that can really influence in a big way.
Arthur: So this season of our podcast, we are focusing on school leadership and the role that those in leadership positions can play in creating an inclusive environment in the school. How can you share with us some important characteristics of what makes someone a leader?
MaryAnn: There's a great book out that I want to reference and I realize everybody's auditory as they listen to this, but this book is an easy title to remember. It's called Reimagining Special Education. I'll say it again, Reimagining Special Education, and it's written by two women; Jenna Rufo and Julie Causton. So Rufo and Causation have generated a great conversation around reimagining special education, and as I read through this book and I've read through it a few times, my puppy's a little dog-eared at this point.
It reminded me of the importance of the role of a leader. We are faced here in New Jersey with a mandatory responsibility. It's not something that we can choose to do or not do these days. Jersey's ranking as a state in the national rankings regarding inclusion was a sobering last in terms of 50, not 50, but 52 territories and states in the United States.
MaryAnn: Leaders in schools today face this data face this stark reality in a way that calls us to action. We have to do something about this. So we talk about leaders and inclusion here. We don't have a choice. And what we need to reimagine special education in terms of 21st century learning, in terms of the civil rights that students have to be in classrooms that are inclusive, where they are genuinely included as a part of that family and belong in that family.
So leaders, we just need to be aware of this huge responsibility laid before us that things need to change and change in New Jersey toward inclusion.
MaryAnn: So what makes a leader with that kind of stark reality facing us? Leaders have to have clear expectations, really define and understand what they are looking for in their schools so that they can build environments that are indeed inclusive.
Leaders have to be able to provide feedback that dedicates all to the mission, not just one or person, but really reads within an authority that says We are on this journey together, and that feedback that they provide in the hallway is part of a teacher observation at a board meeting has to be clearly closer to this important task of being inclusive in New Jersey, schools.
Leaders also have to believe that change can happen. Believe that they are part of that change. And finally, change-makers to make that work so that they can see and celebrate the change. Being a leader means knowing that there is work to be done and rolling your sleeves up and getting to the work so that we can make a difference.
Students are that important and students deserve the education that we offer to everyone as a civil right.
Arthur: That is that's great. I love the believe. Like they have to believe and feedback to. I think that is a really, really great thing to mention.
MaryAnn: The message there Arthur is not to be passive. You can't put a statement forward and say this is what we believe and then not live it every day. And again, the living it every day from the small things we do and the things we do. It's in the way we hire, it's in the way we organize our schools, it's in the way we're staff, it's in the way we build classrooms. It's a material we buy in all of those little pieces, but it's also in the way we say hello and good job in the hallway.
So leaders feedback is what keeps the wheels rolling toward the vision of that leader has. Otherwise, everybody just passively puts a checkmark next to something that they theoretically believe, but don’t see in action.
Arthur: It starts at the top, so for the leaders of the school districts to really believe in what they are, you know what they're putting out there, I think it's you know, it's really important to making everyone else come along and join that journey of making an inclusive environment in the school. I wanted to make sure that we touched on that and, you know, and to really share that information.
Arthur: My last question for you is again, for following along with the previous question about leadership, what would you say are three essential leadership components of inclusive education?
MaryAnn: Yeah, let's talk about that a little bit. I've had the pleasure of working with some districts in areas of reform and change. I give them credit for being ready for change, but in each of these areas, the first characteristic that just jumps off a page is that leaders are bold leaders are bold.
So we talk about leaders like in Haddonfield, New Jersey. Who boldly drew a plan to change the organizational style of programming in the district. This did not come without questions, without maybe some critical eye, but then boldness cut through because she was clearly dedicated to her mission.
Looking at districts like Cherry Hill, huge, twelfth largest in the entire state again, the bold of the director to be able to really know that they saw what could be better, and move toward that goal, never losing sight, never losing sight and keeping the target clear on what change could look like.
This is a characteristic I see. I see often with boldness, and I don't see often. I'm sorry, I don't see often. Oftentimes it's easy to shrink away from a bold step forward. It's hard sometimes to stand out there on your own and wait until everybody catches up.
MaryAnn: But leaders are bold. Leaders are bold enough to say what we're doing is good, but it can be better or what we're doing really needs a change. Those kinds of things, when we see them in leaders, they stand out.
We see them on a national level. We see leaders who rise to the forefront. We say to ourselves, How do they have the guts to do that? Why are they so committed? Now we see some of these leaders rise to the fore in the the turmoil and they captured our imagination and they capture our awe and wonder.
They make us rethink ourselves and what we are here for. That's the kind of boldness I see in some of the places that I’ve been. to really make the next step forward. So the first thing I would say is leaders are bold. I list, or name two people, but there are more.
And this is in my small world. So I don't mean to be exclusive to anyone, but I do mean to say that they are really out there. So I share the leaders that I talk about in order to say I'm not saying this in a vacuum, I'm saying it because we've seen and can find people that have made these bold steps.
And for those of you who are in education, maybe some of you are those both leaders, for those of us who've been around education for a while, that too, we found those leaders. But those kinds of leaders, they are the bold ones who step forward because they know where they're going. They want people to catch up with them.
MaryAnn: The second thing I would say and I say this from my passion, a place of passion as a former employee in the New Jersey Department of Education, we have made real knowledge that fake knowledge, not somebody else's knowledge, not book knowledge, but they need real knowledge of the New Jersey law and code. I might go so far as to say not just the New Jersey line, but the federal law and code, the statutes, that we live under.
Though code has always been sort of a beginning of where we can go, and what we can do for kids. It isn't meant to be exclusive, like the only thing we can do. It’s meant to give us direction. Leaders who don't want well grounded in those foundational pieces often get themselves mixed up. Maybe don't take steps forward that are cemented, maybe build a structure that has fractures and cracks.
Before you can be bold, you have to be knowledgeable. You have to know enough so that when you're making changes, you're making them strong footing and foundation. The other thing is, it’s hard to argue when the work comes from a good and clear direction as our IDEA code and our NJ administrative code. So I would say the second thing that we really need is knowledge of the law and code.
There's a lot of ways to get that. You can certainly study it. There are classes at Rutgers. I teach one of them. I'm sure a lot of our universities have law and code classes, but we find that in community as well. There's some really neat things happening in our counties where people come together and they ask themselves questions about law and code. It’s community that kind of brings life to the statutes that we can read that sometimes don't make much sense or don't give us real fruitful ways to embody the code.
MaryAnn: So it's the knowledge of law and code, but the application comes alive in talking about talking through it. What I love doing this in places that want to change. There's some leaders out there that give me a call from time to time. Tiffany in Mount Holly is one, I’m thinking of Katie. Those people want to make a change, but they want to be sure that they're walking in the right way, and so, this knowledge of law and code is something they check in on.
Again, that's building community. It's built with people who've been around world invested or been around since the inception of IDEA in the 70’s, right. But we need this real knowledge of law and code. We need to flesh it out, think about it, so that how we move forward is grounded in the true that national IDEA and statewide NJAC gives us the ability to do.
So going back, leaders and bold, leaders need real knowledge, so that they can make strong foundational change, and then leaders need to find success in small moments.
They need to realize that change needs at least three years sometimes to come to fruition. It doesn’t happen overnight. And if it doesn't happen overnight, good for you, and if you have been the recipient of that, you're lucky, because it's hard work, this thing called change. Leading, and leading to strength means that we have to take the part in small successes.
I work with leaders who sometimes are frustrated that everybody doesn't come in at the same time that there's questions that we find a gap, that we find something we didn't plan for. We get overwhelmed with that and say, forget it, we're not going to move forward. It's just too hard. Or, we can take time each day to find a success in the small moments.
MaryAnn: I want to think about kids that are sometimes a challenge. They are hard to handle. They are hard to include. We have to be honest and say that. This isn't easy work. Kids come with lots of need.
Sometimes it feels overwhelming to figure out how we can actually provide inclusion for them. that if we can take small successes, if we don't have to do all of it. Take as they say, small bites of the elephant, instead of trying to swallow the whole thing, maybe what we can do is be a success with the small successes.
I’m thinking of a school with a student who was challenged by some behavior regulation, this little boy would often just have meltdowns, sometimes it involved throwing things, sometimes breaking the glass window of the door that separated the classroom from the hallway. And you know those have thin laid wire in them. So breaking that glasses pretty hard to do.
This leader didn’t give up. This leader did not say, okay, this students needs to be somewhere else. Even though the safety of the students were his priority. He certainly emptied the classroom while helping the student regulate. We have lots of dedicated staff. He shared with parents that his desire was to include this student, using supports to make this work. We can imagine not everybody being on the same page, but in a supportive community where a mission has been established that we all belong, that we are family.
The boy went on to be included in that classroom, and the general ed classroom the next school year, with the dedication of staff, students and teachers who are able to put the pieces together. This what I mean by finally success in the small moments.
MaryAnn: Did he still have a plan that sometimes gave him time out of the classroom. Sure. Did he still have people that came into the classroom and a special signal to have that be an immediate call to action. Sure.
But instead of the easier result of putting him somewhere else, this success, even though it was hard to do, continued to build and breed a success, that was monumental. Certainly for this young man, but perhaps for all the students and teachers and the staff at this school.
So leaders are bold. They know where they're going, as they know where they're going, they settle soundly on the law and code that gives them direction to do that. but they also find the success.
I was class optimist in high school. For those people that know me, those who recognize my voice on this podcast. They'll probably recognize that as one of the ways that I see life. But I will say this as well. Sometimes I think voting being voted class optimist in high school is the one thing that brings me back to this work every single day with a way of looking at what works, not a way of looking at what didn’t work.
I pend time with lots and lots of districts that tell me what doesn't work. Here's the truth. We don't have a choice. We just have to be something we are all wrapped around as leaders is mandatory and I told you about the battle in New Jersey. So you can't keep finding a reason it doesn’t work.
We have to build those moments when we really can make a change happen in the state of New Jersey, make a change in schools.
Arthur: I love finding success and the little things. And I think that is true for the work of inclusion and just in life in general. I think that's a great advice. And as you said, being the optimist,
MaryAnn: There’s rough days Arthur. I got to go with it. It’s good that we remember the good days, so that we wake up the next morning.
Arthur: That's right. Yeah. That is such just great life advice in general to celebrate and find success in the little things. And like you said, it doesn't happen overnight, this inclusion, that it's not a big overnight success kind of thing that you'll see.
But in the small things, you can see that, this school year, you're not where you were last school year and not even last month. And just to keep moving forward and, just keep looking toward that end goal and knowing that you're headed in the right direction and like you said, to focus on what's going right and what works instead the things that don't work.
And yeah, you tried it. It didn't work, but you have to keep moving forward and, try other things and it's all going to work out. Although it may be slow and it may seem slow, the process and the journey, but it's all it's all worth it in the end to make sure that everybody is included and, a part of the whole community and the family that is the school and all of that.
So, yeah, that's really great.
Arthur: So, Marianne, thank you so much for this conversation. I really enjoyed this conversation. I enjoyed speaking with you a few weeks ago to plan this this conversation. And a lot of the schools that you mentioned are in the area that I grew up in. So I'm very familiar with the work that they're doing and, the work that they have done.
I was actually in a school in Cherry Hill yesterday. Cherry Hill High School East. So. Yeah, Yeah. So I'm very familiar with these. What the districts in this Camden County area of New Jersey. So it's great to see and take care of the work that they that those districts and so many other districts are doing to, you know, make inclusion a a true and authentic experience in their districts for their students and the families.
I love what you said about the being authentic to it. That is so true and so important with, again, not just in the work of inclusion, but in life in general. It's just a great life Advice.
MaryAnn: We’ll just call this life lessons. It was a leasure talking with you. I hope you hear my passion. I think that we’re all put here for a purpose in this life. the conversation around inclusion is is really purposeful. It wakes me up in the morning. It keeps me up at night sometimes, but it certainly gives me energy. It's a passion that I like to share with those who are ready to do the hard work. We have a call to action in New Jersey. I really want to stress that this isn't just a nice conversation.
It's so important for leaders to really start thinking about what the future can be. Small changes, little steps forward. This is what we need to do in New Jersey. We can't stand on the sidelines anymore and wait for something to happen. Make it happen. So those kinds of conversations, we should be at the ready for, to advantage of and move forward with real conviction so that we can be more to those with disabilities in New Jersey, so that we can we lead to be at a place that's not at the bottom of the pack.
MaryAnn: and say that New Jersey can make a difference.
Arthur: Yes, I agree. It's been great talking with you. And thank you again for your time
MaryAnn: You take care.
Arthur: Yes, you too. And I'll be in touch soon.
MaryAnn: All right. Goodbye.
Arthur: Great. Bye bye. Bye.
Michael McSheehan and I continue our conversation and get into why implementation science can assist with influencing change in the school setting, and the importance of implementing a strategic plan that involves all the correct stakeholders.
TranscriptArthur: This is the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE, where we talk about inclusive education, why it works, and how to make it happen.
On this episode I welcome back to the podcast, my guest, Michael McSheehan. Today we continue our conversation and get into why implementation science can assist with influencing change in the school setting, and the importance of implementing a strategic plan that involves all the correct stakeholders.
Arthur: So to switch gears a little bit, you and I had some pre-conversations about recording this and topics to discuss.
And one of the things that we discussed is implementation science. So can you share with us what implementation of science is, how it is used to create change in schools, and why you feel it is important in the sustainability of inclusion?
Michael I'm going to geek out again. Here we go.
Arthur: Great.
Michael: I love me some implementation science. So basically, implementation science is a study of change. It's a study of change with a focus on how we adopt, integrate really effective practices and policies.
And it's a field of science in health care and education, in community change. It's in public health. It's really spreading all over. There is a huge strand of it focused solely in the field of education.
Right. Implementation science is a method of improvement that really focuses on how education changes are carried out. Right. With attention to all the local variables that come to bear within a school or district.
All we know, all the dynamics and culture that builds over time in a school or district. Putting that in the context of state and professional priorities, in the context of the broader society or culture that we live in. Regional influences.
Michael: So it's a method of improvement that focuses on effective practices and acknowledges the context, their influences and how to navigate to get things fully implemented, fully used so that children can benefit. There's a lot of educational practices that kind of get partially put in place, sort of put in place, and others that get up and running, and then, our principal left, our superintendent changed, and so now we don't do that anymore. Right. Practices that just get abandoned.
And so what implementation science helps us do is to really look at what's going to work, to get to a place where we can get that full implementation in the full benefit from our practice and have it just become that second-order deep change like this is just how we do it now versus this is a special initiative that we're trying out. Like there's a long distance between beginning to try it out and actually having it just be how we do school.
Arthur: I’ve heard in my conversations I've doing this podcast, I've heard a lot of people say, that like an inclusive education is not just something, not a one-time thing. It's not just something that we are trying out, it is something that you have to do over time, and keep going at it and like you said, then it just becomes, it's what we do. It's what we're doing. And it's not an initiative to meet something, a goal, or something like that.
So it's just really just becomes part of the whole environment, the school environment. And that's really, really cool. I was really interested in that. And so I'm glad that you wanted to talk about that. So thank you.
Michael: Yeah, one of the big contributing forces in implementation science is this idea of braiding and coherence. So teachers experience a flood of initiatives flying at them Monday through Friday, and they're expected to just like put it all together and make it happen in my class.
And what implementation science brings is a set of tools and methods for school and district leaders and community leaders to engage and look carefully at all the different things that are going on and find ways to braid those together and put them into a coherent framework.
I’m working with the district not far from my hometown right now, and we just did a little inventory. Like, let me know how many different initiatives are underway right now and what they intend to accomplish and who's working with you on those different initiatives, and are they fully in place yet.
And they came back in their inventory. They had 43 different initiatives across five schools. It's a lot. That's too much. So how do we braid all of those different initiatives together, some of which have really similar aims?
Michael: So you're working on competency-based education, multi-tiered system of support, universal design for learning, competency-based grading and reporting. You have this vision of what's called Portrait of a Learner. You have all these things that really have some common destinations.
Can we break them down to their core elements? Put it into a framework that's understandable and usable for teachers on Monday, such that they're not always completely overwhelmed, and that when they hear of practice, they know where it fits into the broader framework.
And that will help leaders also better target and focus resources so that they're not just sending a bunch of people off to various conferences. I mean, I love coming to an institute that's focused on these issues.
I love doing trainings and workshops. But those only get you to an awareness level. There's still a huge gap between that initiative to awareness and being able to do it in your classroom. So if we really care about teachers and all the things that are on the administrator's plates, We can draw from some of the tools and practices in implementation science to make things not only more efficient but more effective.
All right. I could geek out about this all day long. If there is a particular aspect of this you want me to drill down into. I am happy to do so.
Arthur: I think what you said is all great. And, it's so important that we share this. And like you said, going from the awareness piece of going to workshops and conferences and all of that, to learn about and educate yourself about it.
But to actually put that work to use for the things that you've learned to use and implement them, that’s a whole different ballgame and can really take some, some time to do, and, so it's necessary to get that awareness and education piece, but to put it in action is the real important part.
Michael: Yeah, right. Like, I think I can't remember his name. He's one of the big leaders in the field of implementation science, and I'm drawing a blank on his name because I'm horrible with nouns, but it will come to me. His line is kids do not benefit from interventions that they do not experience.
Arthur: Wow.
Michael: Right. Like, if we don't get the actual instructional practice as it's intended for kids, we can't expect them to benefit from it.
And it seems like it's painfully obvious, right? Like, my car does not benefit from a car wash it does not go through, right? That seems kind of obvious, but we keep thinking we're doing the car wash. Like, we're not really just, like spraying the water into the air near the car, but not like actually doing the thing that we intended to do.
I want to go back because part of your question I think was why is implementation science so important for the sustainability of our work in inclusive education? And I don't know that I completely answered you and I really want to.
I started to go there and I didn't bring it back around. It's this focus on braiding that's important to sustain the work in inclusive education. Right? Because if you see kind of inclusion as an initiative, as a siloed effort, separate from how we're designing curriculum, right?
Michael: If we're doing understanding by design and curriculum or universal design for learning and curriculum, but we're not talking about equity issues for kids with significant disabilities, then that's not getting infused and it's still one step away. Like I stopped do my inclusion work while I'm doing my UBD work, while I'm doing my grading and reporting work, and that's not helpful.
Teachers need us to look at all the initiatives we have underway and administrators need us to work with them to say, okay, where does consideration for students with significant disabilities being in general education classrooms come into all of these different initiatives?
Michael: So what will quality curriculum design look like when it considers this population of learners? What will screening as part of your MTSS framework, What will screening or progress monitoring need to look like in order to include this population of learners with the most extensive support needs?
What will grading and reporting need to look like? I see districts that have these report card systems that in no way, shape or form could be used, as is to report on students with complex support needs who take alternate assessments.
Because altering assessment doesn't mean you're doing alternate curriculum, right? You're still working on the same standards, but it's not tied back through the reporting system. So the braiding piece of implementation science, I think, could really reduce the effort, and increase the sustainability of inclusive education because we can be braiding things in as we go.
I told you I can geek out on this for a long time Arthur, really, I could’ve done an hour just on that.
Arthur: I love it, though.
It's great information to have because it all makes sense. It all makes sense in the way that you're explaining it. It's in a way that everybody can understand why and how it can make sense so easily, and just with a little bit of effort from everybody, it can all be done.
Michael: Yeah, well, a little bit of effort and a long-term plan.
Arthur: Yes. Yes.
Michael: People think we're going to get this done in a year or two, no, we need to help manage your expectations. Not going to happen in just a year or two. It’s going to take five.
Arthur: Yes. That's a great segway into our next question, actually, of strategic planning.
Can you share with us why it is important to create a strategic plan that engages the correct stakeholders for an inclusive education goal?
Michael: Wow. I love that you ask such light questions. That's great. So take that in two parts, because I was kind of already speaking to the strategic planning part. Right? Like you want to create a plan so that you can manage your workloads so that you don't have 43 initiatives underway across your five schools.
So you want to create a strategic plan that says, here's how we're going to bring coherence to all of the work that we're doing. You want to create a strategic plan that maps out and acknowledges that implementation, and getting stuff in place happens in stages of work, and you want your plan to be developmentally responsive to where people are in their implementation effort.
Early on, people are asking, Well, why should we do this and should we do this, and if we do this, what will that involve? What are the roles and responsibilities? Right? And then you get into doing it. And when you get to that, that part of it, people are going to want to know, like, what are all the support structures for doing this work?
What is job-embedded coaching? What are the meeting structures? What are the data systems? What policies have to change now that we're doing this work? And then you're moving forward again to say right now, if we want to sustain this and fully integrate this, we're going to make sure it's completely braided with other work.
What's our long-term funding for the various elements of this work? So a strategic plan helps you communicate thoughtfully and honestly the nature of the work, and coherence for that work to be doable over time.
Michael: The latter part of your question, engages all the correct stakeholders and I would say, well, all the stakeholders are the correct ones. Let’s get them all in there in some way. And this would be going back to your first question, some things that are changed in the way that we approach the work.
And in terms of engaging stakeholders in this changing process around inclusive education. We used to take an approach that was very directed. Here's what you have to do. Here's how you do it. We provide the training and the coaching and the job-embedded tools, and you go do it.
And this kind of change is not going to happen with a very technical approach, because it's not a technical problem. A technical problem is discrete and bounded. You can see it and name it and say, Oh, four teachers who don't know how to do this thing, we can provide training and coaching. If it's known and you can see the solutions, it’s a technical problem. This idea of really engaging as equal members, students with significant disabilities in our public schools, that’s what we call an adaptive problem.
Michael: It’s messy. There are all kinds of isms floating around with that one. There are all kinds of challenges to our system floating around with that one. And if you bring in outsiders who are just going to tell you how to do it, it's not going to change.
So you've got to engage the internal stakeholders in your system, your staff, your administrators, your board, community members, families, and the students themselves all need to be engaged so that they own the problem.
The kind of tagline phrase is called psychological ownership, where individuals see and recognize that there is a problem that they want to change, that there's a more preferred, more desirable future. And they then generate the solutions for that work. Now, of course, you can go visit some places and see some elements of the work that are common that could be helpful locally, but the local group really needs to figure out exactly what it's going to look like in our context if it's going to sustain over time.
So engaging the stakeholders, all of them, with the information that they need, right?
Probably not every family wants to hear the ins and outs of implementation, science or the change process. As much as I would love to have coffee with them and tell them all about implementation science, but you do need to have a district leadership team or a district implementation team who is building their capacity with things like implementation science so that they can thoughtfully lead the change process.
Michael: So different stakeholders may have at different times, different pieces of communication that there that are most important for them to know about and act on. But you want them all engaged in the change process so we can manage everybody's expectations and get there.
Arthur: I like what you said that they're all the correct stakeholders because it isn't just the teachers that are involved in this process. It's like you said, it's the community, it’s all the staff and the faculty of the schools that are involved in making these changes. And that's something so important to mention.
So to conclude our conversation, just one last question for you, and that is what schools or states, what you choose as examples that show great inclusive education and why?
Michael: Short answer first. None. And it's not that there aren't good people doing good things in schools, in states across this country, because there are lots of amazing things happening. You can go to websites like SwiftSchools.org, The Swift Education Center.
You can go tiescenter.com. The Time. Instruction. I can't remember all their letters Engagement and Supports. Tiescenter.org and the swiftschools.org And you'll see lots of examples.
I was part of the Swift Education Center for what, five, six, seven years? You'll see videos from schools in Maryland and Oregon and Mississippi. All doing great stuff. And I want to be really careful that there are schools each doing great stuff, but maybe not one school has everything that you would want to know or see around inclusive education.
And you can't just look at one school and how they do it and neatly import that to your school. And I was referring to this earlier. Like, you can go to different states and schools and see particular elements that are very strongly in place in different schools, and you can see common threads of staffing arrangements and service delivery models and school-wide schedules and curriculum design approaches that are common across these. And yet they're slightly different in each context.
Michael: And that's part of what helps them sustain that element, it's been tailored to the context. So I wouldn't say kind of in a status report, you can go here to see a great conclusion because that may not be how it's going to look like in your school.
All those all those different elements are definitely integrated, but they're also compensatory. They're playing out in different ways. I know it's not a popular answer. Like, I've been asked this before, like, can you send us a list of great inclusive schools?
And in part I also say none, because I've had enough experience now to have worked with some schools that were doing amazing things and people found out they were doing amazing things, and then everybody started to move there and visit there and look there, and eventually the system imploded because of all the pressure.
When you see families who are like, no, I want my kid included, I'm moving to this town. Well, when you do so, now it's a different population. Right.
Michael: I saw a high school get built as an inclusive high school, structurally, physically and programmatically. And within a few years, they had trailers of where students and teachers were working in trailers because everybody just moved there and it was too much, too much.
Michael: So I'm really hesitant to do that.
Arthur: I think you definitely answered the question because it's what works in one district might not work in your district. So you can take pieces of something that you see, something that you like that's working, but you also have to tailor it to your specific needs at your school and your district and your students.
Michael: I hope it’s helpful.
It’s not always a pleasant answer to hear. But I want to be honest from my perspective.
Arthur: Right, right. And I think for me, I always say, I have spinal bifida, and if you've meet me, you've met one person with spinal bifida because the next person you meet might not have to use a wheelchair, might not have to use crutches like I do. It looks different for everybody.
And I think the same can be applied to inclusive education. It has to be tailored to your community, to what your student's needs are.
And what works over in this town might not translate and work too well in your town. So again, we can all look at different places and see things that we like and things that we want to incorporate and include and implement in our district but, it has to be tailored and structured in a way that works for us.
Michael: Yep. I strongly agree. Absolutely. Common elements, but when they come together, it's going to look a little different over here.
Think about it as like a mosaic. Like this tile is going to be bigger in your town, then that tile will be in the other town. Then going to have a ripple effect out.
Or think about it as a kaleidoscope. Like certain colors are going to come together in your town that are not going to come together in that place that you’ve visited. It's just not going to look that obviously replicable.
Arthur: Wow. Two great examples of the mosaic. And if you're like, wow, And that's so true. That's so true. It will look different in every place, every person that looks at it from their perspective and from their vantage point, looks different. So. Wow.
Michael, this conversation has been just great. I've really enjoyed speaking with you and having you share your story and your knowledge about the world of inclusion and the changes and work that you and your team are doing to make changes in the world of inclusive education. So thank you for your time today and we will be in touch soon.
Michael: Thank you for all that you're doing. Thank you so much, Arthur.
Arthur: Oh, you're welcome. And have a good day.
Michael: Okay. Bye bye.
Arthur: We thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast. This podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE. Be sure to subscribe on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts. And don’t forget to follow us on social media, @NJCIE. Until next time.
On this episode, I welcome my guest Michael McSheehan. Michael is the owner and lead consultant of Evolve & Effect, a company that assists education agencies on how they can evolve their practices to increase positive effects for learners. On this, part 1 of our conversation, we discuss what changes he has seen in the world of inclusive education in his more than 30 years of working in the field, and how a specific court case in his hometown had a lasting impact on his career path.
Transcript Arthur: This is the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE, where we talk about inclusive education why it works, and how to make it happen.
On this episode, I welcome my guest Michael McSheehan. Michael is the owner and lead consultant of Evolve & Effect, a company that assists education agencies on how they can evolve their practices to increase positive effects for learners. On this, part 1 of our conversation, we discuss what changes he has seen in the world of inclusive education in his more than 30 years of working in the field, and how a specific court case in his hometown had a lasting impact on his career path.
Arthur: I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. I'm your host, Arthur Aston, and I'm happy to welcome my guest on the show today, Michael McShane.
And I am so happy to talk with you again and to see you virtually. So thank you for being here, Michael.
Michael: My pleasure. Thank you so much, Arthur, for inviting me.
Arthur: Yes, you and I, we met over the summer of last year at the New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, had a summer conference, and you and I, we met there. So it's good to see you again, virtually, and to hear a little bit of, you know, your story and your journey and what you're doing in the world of inclusive education.
Michael: Sure. Happy to be here. Let’s do it.
Arthur: So to get started, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself? Things like how long have you been in the field of inclusive education? And also, what led you to create your company Evolve in Effect?
Michael: Okay. So all of that. Let's see. Some stuff about me that's relevant that you want to know. Born and raised in the same town as my parents. Well, my father was born someplace else, but was really raised in Rochester, New Hampshire.
Just three houses down from where my mother was born and raised, and her only brother lived in that same neighborhood. So Rochester, New Hampshire is kind of our family's hometown Most of the family is here within a few miles of each other.
It's funny, growing up in that situation when I applied to college, because I was the first person in our family to go to college, and I thought, Oh my God, I'm never coming back to this town.
I’m never coming back to this town, and lo and behold, I came back to this town. But that’s a later part of the story.
Michael: I have been working in this field for, gosh, I guess a little over 30 years now. So I've been around for a while and sequel to things. I originally was going to be a veterinarian, but I had developed severe allergies. So after several years of going down a path to become a veterinarian, I had to rethink things, and so this seemed like a logical alternative.
Michael: I looked at a lot of different options; psychology, and I did some informational interviewing with people in our Department of Communication Disorders. I did my undergraduate work at the University of New Hampshire and met with some faculty in that department and just kind of said, So what is this field about?
Speech, language, something, pathology? What do they do? And the more I learned about the field, I was really interested, and as part of my coursework, my, advisor, Dr. Stephen Calculator, who is a forerunner in the field of augmentative communication, working with people with significant disabilities.
He was my advisor and he said, there are these classes being taught by these people out of the Institute on Disability that are introductory courses to exceptionality, just special education, and you really should take their courses. So I took courses with Jan Nesbitt and Cheryl Jorgensen and got exposed to things I had just never experienced before.
I remember in Jan's class, Jan was really good at getting other people to teach her class, she had a lot of guest lecturers. And about halfway through the course, we've been, reading about people with significant disabilities and hearing from doctors and professors, and then suddenly I was coming into class and I saw this guy in a wheelchair, kind of a scooter, and he had a helper dog and he had a person helping him.
Michael: And I heard him make some sounds, but they didn't sound like words. And I thought, Oh, that's a person with a severe disability. Jan's going to talk about him today, and in fact, that guy gave the lecture.
Michael: He wheeled up to the front of the class and pulled out a communication board and started tapping away at letters and words and gave the lecture for the class. And they sat there at the back of the class just beside myself, not knowing what was going on and completely hooked. I was like, I need to understand this.
And that really became kind of the drive of my work from that moment forward was understanding communication differences for people who had limited or complicated speech and then kind of got pulled into the education arena and it just all kept going from there.
Sorry, what question was answering again? How long have I been in the field? A long time, and that's what led me to this part of the work.
What led me to start my company is when I left U Of H, I thought as an undergrad when I left and went to Syracuse to do grad work, I thought, oh, I’m never going back to New Hampshire. And it seems like every time I say that statement, it comes back around at me.
Michael: As I was wrapping up my graduate work, Jan Nesbitt, the director of the Institute on Disability, asked me to come for an interview and I ended up going back to work at the University of New Hampshire. Then I left for a little while, and did some private consulting and then came back, I think in early 2000, just came back to just do one project for four years and, stayed another 15 years.
So after 20 years, it was time to get out again from the university setting and I started the company, and I draw on lots of different people's work. And I had worked with National Technical Assistance Centers on these very targeted projects, and I just I wanted to more flexibility. I wanted to choose who I was going to work with.
I'm old and. Grumpy. So I want to find good people to work with. I wanted greater choice and control over that, over who I would serve.
Michael: And so I started the company thinking, I want to work with schools in districts who are just asking hard questions and who really want really significant change in education for all students, especially those with disabilities and those who have been historically marginalized.
And I thought this will be how I kind of just fade into the sunset. This will be my slow retirement. I'll start this little company just me consulting, and now the company, I've got, what, three-four employees. And we've got eight different subcontractors and partners that work on the right project, and I'm bringing on another full-time employee in July.
The company just keeps expanding because I think the more clear I got about the kind of work I wanted to do and the kind of people I wanted to work with, those people now, I’m finding those people more and more, and those systems more and more that are asking really hard questions and want to do good stuff.
So we're trying to put together a team of really good people to do that with them.
Michael: So I did want to go back. Just to tell you a little bit, one more thing about the company and what we're doing. Because this is just kind of evolved.
I mean, like the company's name is Evolve and Effect. I’m really interested in, as I said, like the really hard, messy stuff like that just gets me charged up. And a school district approached me, gosh, about a year ago to completely rethink how they were teaching autistic learners.
And we started a pilot in one school and they had been running this autism program that was very much driven by ABA, discrete trial training, and token economies, and it wasn't being responsive to who autistic learners actually were.
And so both undoing this program and supporting these learners to be part of the school community in small steps, we're getting there. But like, that's the kind of messy work that that the company’s involved with now, that's just so exciting, and the outcomes we get are just incredible.
Michael: At this point last year in that program, in that school, they had had by this point in the year, hundreds of behavioral incidents with these students, such that they were using restraint and seclusion.
So 250 different incidents of restraint and seclusion from the beginning of school till now. A year ago, since we've started working with them, beginning the school to now, we've had two incidents where a child needs to be restrained.
Michael: And that was really just to keep them safe in that circumstance. It's really messy. It's really hard work. And, the school just really wants to do better. And so they're asking these really hard questions.
And now the district is aiming to expand that to all of their elementary schools where they have these other kinds of very much behaviorally driven programs. They're now going to switch to being very responsive to what is autism and what do these autistic learners need, and how do we do that in a way that's centered on equity and inclusion at the same time.
Michael: And it's just. When I started the company. It's not what I thought it would be doing and I'm loving it. It's great.
Arthur: That's great. And I love that you said once you became more clear about, what it is you want to do, those people found you and you found them. And it's like it's expanding. That's really, really cool.
Arthur: For those who are not watching this on YouTube, I love the excitement I see on your face when you talk about it.
I think that's what is really important because, to me, that shows that you're in it for the right reasons and you're doing it because you believe in it and you know that there needs to be some changes made and to actually see the changes being made, as you said, you went from all of the incidences that they had before and now they're working with you and they've had two.
Michael: Yes me and a team.
Arthur: Yes, yes.
Michael: That one is actually done in partnership with a wonderful group called Autism Level Up.
My wonderful colleagues, Amy Lorent, and Jacqueline Feady, they are incredible partners in this work. So I really don't want to say, like Michael went in with a bunch of special dust, and just made a great happen.
There's a team of us and now our challenge is we need to work ourselves out of a job, right Like we need to build the capacity and get out of there. They had contracts with these behavioral agencies for six years and we're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars every year, and I look at it and it's like, well, that should come back. You all should be able to do whatever Amy and Jacqueline and I come in and do. We want to support them to do that. There's plenty of work to happen in the world. We don't need a district to be paying us forever.
Michael: Which may maybe unpopular and probably not a really great business plan on my part. But I want to work myself out of a job.
Arthur: Yes, right. Oh, wow, that's that's a good one. So I guess kind of like a follow-up question to that.
You've mentioned that you have been doing this work for 30 years or for over 30 years. What are some of the changes you have seen in those years of working? And I guess where would you say improvements still needs to be made?
Michael: Loaded questions.
Arthur: Yes!
Michael: Gosh, what's changed? We've really shifted, in the area of inclusive education, and I'm not sure that that's a helpful thing to call it anymore, but that’s probably another podcast.
But we've really shifted from this one child-at-a-time work to a more system-wide school and district and state capacity building. And I think that that's been a really important change in the field. We need to kind of look at the broader systems and structures that have maintained separateness for kiddos, and we weren't getting to some of those kinds of systemic barriers, that kind of institutionalized ableism that has played out in schools.
And there's been a shift now to attend to that much more so that if you make these changes school-wide, it can lift up many more students than just trying to do one student at a time.
That said, we still do one student at a time because each kiddo is going to need really specific supports.
Michael: Other changes in the field over time, alignment with these school-wide frameworks like Multi-Tiered System of Supports, Universal Design for Learning.
Oh my gosh. When we started this work, we didn't have Universal Design for Learning. And wow, how helpful is that in terms of thinking about curriculum design that's built for all of the learners that you have to know that that's achievable, that we have seen it happen in schools in really great ways, and when that's in place, so many barriers come down and there's still more to remove, but that's such a central one around curriculum design, and that's something that really works well.
Michael: Something that has not changed. This is going to sound weird, but research outcomes have not changed in the 30-plus years that I've been in the field, right? In my time in the field, the research outcomes have held constant. Right. It keeps showing that, yes, we should be putting kids with significant disability labels into general education classrooms.
Yes, we should be teaching them general curriculum and we can. And that's better than the alternative of being in separate settings.
So last year, I don't know, you probably did a podcast on this. I haven't listened to all your podcasts, but like last year there were a series of huge studies that came out that once again reinforced this large-scale studies looking at students with significant disabilities across 11 states. All of their outcomes, point to more time in general and results in higher scores on reading and math. Better social relationships, and better opportunities for employment, and this is for students with the most significant disabilities. So like. At some point, it's no longer about, like, do some more research. It's really about how we did this, and I think that that is a thing that's also changed in the field.
Michael: We’re thinking differently about the how piece of this work and how are we going to partner with schools and districts to do this long-term heavy lift change, right? Like you think about all the work we still have to do in the area of racism and schooling. We've got as much, if not more work to still do around ableism and schooling.
Michael: And we've got schools leaning into that conversation across the country. Sorry, I may have gone off to a shiny object. Did I answer your question?
Arthur: You answered it. Fantastic. I loved that the research hasn't changed.
I said, whoa. It’s so true.
Michael: It hasn’t, No, but, you would expect in most endeavors in education, we expect to get lots of mixed results. But if you’re 40 years into the work and all the studies that compare outcomes, tracking kids across different settings, if all of those comparative studies keep pointing in the same direction, at some point you say, okay, so maybe we should follow the research. Hmm. Like, maybe that's a good thing to do.
Arthur: Yeah, maybe it's actually saying something. Wow.
Yeah, that was a great, great answer.
Arthur So, as you mentioned, you grew up in Rochester, New Hampshire. And after we met over the summer, it was my first time meeting you and learning about the work that you do.
So I did some research and looked up some things that you've done, and I've listened to some podcasts and things that you've been on before then and since then. And something that I heard you speak about that I would like for you to discuss here as well is the court case of Timothy versus Rochester, which took place in your hometown.
So can you share with us what that court case was about and how and why it profoundly had an impact on you?
Michael: Glady, because it really has become this driving force in my life, and it's in part how the company came to be named.
So fun story or not So fun story. So Timothy W. was a student born in Rochester, New Hampshire, in December of 1975, born with multiple disabilities. Lots of things going on for him. He had attended a local child care development center in his early years, 3 to 5 years old or so.
And, we're going back now, way back when, right. Public law 94 142 had just come into effect. And here's this kiddo in Rochester, New Hampshire whose being, whose life existence will put the challenge out there for folks like did we really mean all learners with disabilities when we said public law 94 142?
So in the kind of early childhood and preschool arena, they started doing some work with him and coming to school. But when it came time for him to transition into the public school system K through 12, the school district decided that Timmy, Timothy was not educationally handicapped. Because, since his handicap was so severe and I'm using the language of the time since his disabilities were so severe, he was not, quote, capable of benefiting from an education and therefore was not entitled to one. Now. Let's just sit in for a second.
Arthur: Wow.
Michael: Here we are. We're around 1980 now, 1981, right now he’s five or six years old, about to enter the public school system. And the school system said, you are so disabled, you're not going to benefit from anything we should have to offer. Stay home.
Horrifying. And we know that this story was taking place across our country for decades, and it's still happening in some other ways. So the school district said, we're not going to provide you with any educational program.
They were back and forth with the State Department saying, yes, you really do need to provide educational programming to this student. Other programs evaluated him. Other consultants came in all saying yes, in fact. Timmy W. can learn some things.
We don't know what those are, but here's what we're seeing that lets us know this and this back and forth went on for six years. And finally, in 1988, Rochester School District appealed the decision that just kept coming back against them to the US District Court.
And again they were arguing Timmy W. was not capable of benefiting from special education and so we're not obligated to provide him with special education under that public law. So that's huge now.
Michael: Parallel lines here. Right. So at that time, I am now realizing that I am changing my field of study at the University of New Hampshire. I start taking these courses, with Jan Nesbit and Cheryl Jorgensen, and that's where I learn about the Timmy W. case.
I don't learn about it in my hometown news. I learned that this kiddo has been systematically excluded from public education by going to college. That's why I learned about it. And I was really, quite frankly, pissed off.
Like, who is this district to decide who can and can't go to school with? Who is this district to say that any child is not capable of benefiting from education? Now we've got decades have passed.
Right. So maybe there are some people now in the Rochester school system who would no longer believe that, but that's my hometown. So I know that the town put in all this effort and energy to keep a kid out, and that just continues to fuel me.
The case also came back with a huge decision that set a precedent for our field in special education. Timmy’s case raised the question of do you have to prove that you can benefit before you can get an education. And so there's this phrasing in special ed called the Zero Reject Policy, meaning you don't have to demonstrate this capacity to benefit in order to be eligible for education and special education services.
Michael: So that zero reject policy is huge and is the counterpoint to what the school system was saying. And this is where the company name comes in.
In the decision for this case, the judges wrote that educational methodologies are not static but are going to constantly be evolving and improving and that school districts, in Rochester, are responsible to avail themselves of the new approaches.
Michael: So that's part of what I want to recognize in entering this and starting this company, right?
That our educational methodologies do continue to evolve and we want to select those that have positive effects, that create a positive effect for our learners. And I'm really interested in working with the districts who want to figure out how all that comes together.
So that's why that case is so important to me. Was that more than you wanted to know?
Arthur: No, that was great. And one of the things that I wanted to point out because again, I heard you talk about that before, and looking up the case like this happened in my lifetime.
I was born in 1981.
So it really hit me hard, and I have a physical disability, I have spina bifida. But it was just like, wow, like this is not something that happens so far in the past.
I think a lot of things people like to think of as happening like, oh, that was so long ago.
That doesn't happen that much anymore. And that's just like, oh, it still happens
Michael: So not in that way. Right now It's become a little bit more covert and subtle, or not so subtle.
For ten years, we've seen no change in educational placement for kids with significant disabilities. I mean, just a flatline for ten years now across all of our states.
So clearly, we've got some work to do when we've got that high percentage of the population of students with disabilities still systematically excluded from general education settings in
general education teachers who are the content experts who can do the best teaching in reading and writing and math and science. Us special educators like I can give you something in that arena, but I'm not trained as a person who will teach the fundamentals of reading and writing and math and science.
And that's we need our general educators. Sorry, I'm on a pedestal again. I will step down here.
Arthur: You’re Fine. You're good. Again, I enjoy having these conversations because it really it's something that shows you're passionate, and the passion is what drives you to keep going when things get rough and you have a real determination and force behind you pushing you to help make these changes. So it's really, really important to talk about and to share these things.
Michael: There’s a lot of people in this work asking very similar and hard questions. And we will keep learning and we will keep doing.
Arthur: Yes. Yeah, exactly.
On this episode, I welcome back for part two of our conversation, Dr. Jessica McQueston, assistant professor at Sam Houston State University. Our discussion continues with how implementing a disability-inclusive curriculum can be beneficial to all students.
TranscriptArthur: This is the inclusion Think Tank podcast brought you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE, where we talk about inclusive education, why it works, and how to make it happen.
On this episode, I welcome back for part two of our conversation, Dr. Jessica McQueston, assistant professor at Sam Houston State University. Our discussion continues with how implementing a disability-inclusive curriculum can be beneficial to all students. Let’s get into the conversation.
Arthur: So you've recently presented a workshop at the TASH conference called How to Include Disability Inclusive Curriculum in the K to 12 Classroom. Can you tell us what a disability-inclusive curriculum is and what that looks like?
Jessica: Yeah. So, I think I've kind of hit on this already, but really, we talk about disability, we have to think about intersectionality and, the way that people with disabilities have made huge contributions to society, and some of these, like famous people from the past, all had disabilities, but they weren't seen as others, or maybe they weren't diagnosed at the time.
And so we've been able to kind of look back and diagnose them, but, there’s if you look in the media right now, there are tons of portrayals of, negative portrayals of people with disabilities. And so I think when we try to eliminate these stereotypes, we have to examine these assumptions and beliefs and everything else that they're based on and I think part of that starts with what is taught in schools.
And right now, disability is missing from the curriculum, and, people with disabilities are one of the largest minority groups in the U.S., and yet we're not part of the curriculum. We're ignored.
And so I have a few steps that you can take to kind of think about developing and looking at your curriculum and making it more disability inclusive. And so when I say that, I really think about like, how are we recognizing people with disabilities throughout the curriculum?
And so one thing that I like to recommend first is to really think about evaluating what curriculum you're using and really checking it for ableism. I'm sure most of us can think about like, Oh, we've read a book and the person with a disability is like this hero, right?
They are a hero, because they did a normal everyday tasks. Right? And so, and then also like there's some like attitudes and beliefs and other ablest remarks in the curriculum.
Jessica: And so I think when we think about doing that, we have to not only be open to changing what we've done in the past, like breaking out of the status quo. And I feel like over the last three years, especially, I've said that I don't know, probably 9 million times that we have to kind of break out of the status quo and be open to change.
But I think really start with looking at it, looking at whatever curriculum you're using and it might not even be the whole year. So maybe even just pick one unit or one topic that you're doing and say like, is there any mention of disability present?
Is it superficial? Is it actually deep? Is it just a brief mention of one line? And then also think about how are people with disabilities portrayed. Does it further perpetuate stereotypes about people with disabilities?
So I think that the first step is really taking a hard and honest look at what you're using and kind of evaluating it for ableism, embedded throughout.
Jessica: And then I think the next part is really this like design and design component.
Really think about what are the units that allow students to learn, I like to say about and from and with people with disabilities. And so again, recognizing that people with disabilities are the experts and they should be leading this conversation.
And so it's moved beyond just like a Disability Awareness Day, which is great. And that means you still have ten miles to go on this journey, but what you might do is include some outside materials.
So maybe you're doing a unit on, I don't know, the Civil War or something. And so not only do you take the textbook that you have, but also that needs to be, I'm sure, some added materials, but also like bring in some other materials and you might look at like some curriculums, have these like supplemental texts or resources maybe on their website or like might be sitting in your storage closet at a school.
Jessica: I worked with the students at NDSU, my previous institution, and she was doing she was a student teaching in seventh grade. I think a seventh-grade classroom might have been eighth-grade, but, a middle school classroom in history. They were talking about the civil rights movement, and she looked and this curriculum had these like extra kind of like short little like 20, 30-page readers on different topics that had just been sitting in a closet. She pulled one out and it was on the disability rights movement. And so she was able, which is like fascinating. Right? And so she was able to bring it into the classroom and like have this rich conversation and like a whole week-long unit on it.
And it was like, wow, this is something that would have never happened if she would have gone looking for it. Right. So it was purposely excluded from the main curriculum. And so that's another thing to kind of take in.
I know that a student was really incredible and she ended up taking like an extra class just to learn more about people with disabilities and special ed with me. And she took a grad class and it was fascinating, talk about a change-maker in the field.
Jessica: So you might also, if you’re talking about activism, for example, like have you brought in the Capital Crawl of 1990? There are tons of ways to do this.
I also think about, we have the Internet now, which is a fantastic resource. Over the past year, I've just started Googling random things. People with disabilities in ancient Egypt, people with disabilities in or that are biologists just to say like what are some people that we could highlight? What experiences could we highlight? Because again, one in four people throughout their lifetime are going to have a disability. So we need to address this.
Jessica: There’s also and I have a list, I'm going to read it, but the Museum of Disability History has tons of lesson plans out there across different grade bands and then some other things to think about of like there's different like councils and museums that are great opportunity to look at. Most are virtual. The Minnesota Council on Developmental Disabilities has some. The Museum of DisAbility History and ‘Ability’ is like capitalized on that.
The Disability History Museum, which again is different from the Museum of Disability History. And then Every Body it's an Artifact History of Disability in America by this Smithsonian Institute, which is it is a little bit older, but you can also incorporate some of that.
Jessica: So like even just looking at What was happening at this time and how can we bring in these artifacts? But really, I think. Really starting with like just a simple Google search. You can learn so much like there are a ton of other resources.
I could talk on this for another 10 minutes. It's like, what resources are out there? There are whole units on ableism that are out there. There are tons out there. I think you just have to look for it and really think about including that in your curriculum.
Jessica: And then also, be open to connecting with your local disability resource center or community resource center or other self-advocates. So I taught two to three, multi-age classrooms one year, and I connected with the Disability Resource Center in Albuquerque, New Mexico.
And they actually came and did like a presentation for not only my class but the whole school on disability. Yeah, it was really cool.
To have like self-advocates really like talking about, what does it mean to have a disability. What is it? it's not something to be scared of. Right. And it's just natural and doesn't mean that you can't do anything. And so really connecting with them, too. I mean, most communities will have this.
Jessica: After the pandemic started, we’ve really embraced this idea of virtual. So if you don't have a local resource community center, connecting with one maybe in your state or locally or not local, but like a little bit broader of a local circle.
Arthur: The resources are out there like you said. It's really just to find it. I know for me personally, we're recording this in February and it's Black History Month. So going back to something you mentioned earlier about intersectionality. So, I Googled being black and disabled and the list of people that show up and the different things, the different fields that they're in and just learning about different people. So that's something that I've been highlighting on my personal social media accounts this month.
So it's really like Google is there and it's very helpful when used correctly, to find out such great information and the resources that you mentioned. Some of which I haven't even heard of. So I will definitely be looking into this as well.
It’s so, so useful and so helpful like you said, to identify the ablest language in the curriculum that you may be using, the books that the students may be reading. And to open up that conversation, to start having a conversation about why this is ableist, why is this an outdated way of thinking or how can we possibly change this story a little bit to make the person with a disability a little bit, like you said, to not look as scary because that's a lot of things.
A lot of times that happens in movies and books and, they're thought of as the scary person, so it's like, how can we get away from that and, going back to, improving the language that we use when we talk about those who have who are disabled and have disabilities.
Arthur: It's really interesting. When you think about it. I think about the books that I read, coming up in school that had the disability represented in the stories.
And it's like, oh, wow, that was supposed to be the scary character and the person everybody stayed away from. And they didn’t look in their direction and it's like, Oh, wow,
Jessica: that’s really good. And I think like, that's also like a great point is like, not all materials are created equal, right?
And so, like, what, what are actually in the books like let's say you're bringing in books to your classroom. What are the characters doing? Are they just there to say, like, we have this representation? Or are they like the scary character?
Is it a true thing? Or are they just seen as a hero? Is it…why are they included? Is it for the right reasons, or are the books kind of perpetuating this idea of ableism?
And so I think that's also important. I'm glad you mention that. Because we all deserve to have, to see ourselves in books and in the curriculum. And so, if not, like we as a student, as K-through-12 student, as parents, as families, like we might have to step in and like call the staff and faculty and whoever in versus out and just say like, hey, here's this great resource. I know you're doing something for Black History Month and you also feature, someone who's black and has a disability. I love that idea. That’s just something quick and easy to do and it's not a huge change.
Jessica: I think when we think about disability inclusive a curriculum, we think like, oh gosh, I have to redo everything. I have to do that. It can be minor tweaks to make sure that people are represented and, you know, not only the students themselves, but, also their family members, their parents, or anyone else like anyone in their kind of group, or circle is represented and part of the curriculum that they're seeing and receiving.
Arthur: Yes. And that leads to like my last question, which we are already talking about almost.
And that is, how can using a disability-inclusive curriculum, support all learners? Again, I think we have already…
Jessica: Transitioned to that.
Arthur: Yeah, we already talked about that already. So that's a good thing.
Jessica: I do think like,, I work with a lot of general educators, current teachers that are in the field, and also like pre-service educators or, people that basically are going to school to be special educators or aren't special educators.
And some of them think like, oh, this doesn't really apply to me. Like, I'm not going to be a special ed teacher. Oh, I won't have those students, right. “Those students” in my classroom.
And so I always like to remind people, 14% of the school-age population has a disability and receives special education services. And so this statistic comes from NCeS, the National Center for Educational Statistics. I probably butchered that, but NCES just last year. So we're talking about 7.3 million students in K through 12 schools.
Jessica: So when you think about it like that, this is a huge group of students. It's a huge population that are not currently in most schools being represented in their curriculum. And so we really have to kind of push back and say, how can we include students not only in our schools but also in our curriculum?
Because this is going to not only help with representation, but it will also help kind of normalize the idea of a disability, that it's not this other-ing thing, it's not this thing to be scared of. And, again, that statistically, people will, experience disability throughout their lifetime at some point.
I will also say, like, it can also help with this idea of inspiration porn of like, oh, just oh, they are so special. There's this and like, wow, we're going to change the whole football game. And yes, they're included. And it's like, that's not really inclusion. We just put a fake time and a fake score on the on the field so that they could be in the game one time.
And, like, that's not inclusion. Um, it's nice, but. Exactly. Yeah, it's great. And I'm sure that kid really enjoyed it. Yeah, but it's not inclusive. And so, we don't need to, I always think of like prom season, like how many videos are we going to see of this person asks someone with a disability to prom. They’re such a great person. I'm like to stop! So ableist. it’s so bad.
Arthur: Yeah. And I and I think again, it goes back to the way that disability is talked about and portrayed in the world at large, in the media, and as a bad thing. And, as you said, that that, you know, people with disabilities are in this other group. And, rather than thinking of,, people, disabled people, as being just part of human diversity and, they are just diverse and another aspect of diversity.
And so it's not a big,, wouldn't be such a big thing that, a person without a disability is asking someone who is disabled to the prom. It's just like, yeah, as a disabled person, I, yeah I went to my prom and,, and I like to do things and go to parties and participate in events that, my classmates are participating in. It's not right now. It's nothing special about that. And yeah, I just want to do what my classmates are doing.
Arthur: So I think again, when like you said, that things have come a long way and there's a long way to go and a lot of these areas. But as we continue to have these conversations like this about the importance of language and the way that we discuss disabilities with the children in our lives.
And just as you're doing with the future educators that are coming through your courses at the college level. We can hope to start seeing a bigger change in the way that disability is discussed and portrayed in movies, books, in the media, in the news, and wherever we, have these interactions with people who have disabilities because we are everywhere, and like we said, we are not going anywhere. We're here to stay.
Jessica: Exactly. Exactly. And again, like, it not only is like 14% of the school population, not only did they receive special education services or, you know, 504 plans, but I also think, if we think about mental health and the amount of disability that has happened in the last few years from like long COVID and the effects of it on the body like. This is only becoming a bigger and bigger issue.
And so we just have to address it. The CDC has said that one in five students has, you know, is diagnosed with a mental illness and struggles with their mental health, but yet only 10% receive support.
So again, we kind of have to normalize this conversation around disability, around mental health, around intersectionality to really move this conversation forward. And yes, we can do that at the college level, but also with our K-through-12 students like they are the ones that are going to take the next generation and make this change.
So we have to kind of guide them and let them know that this exists and it can be in small ways. It doesn't have to be this huge thing. Although would be great if you had a whole unit on ableism. I’m not stopping you if you want to do that, but like go for it, please do it!
Jessica, even just having a book for read-aloud, that features someone with a disability is a great starting point. So starting small, I think, can really make this huge impact going forward if we all do our little small part.
Arthur: Yes. And with that, I will say thank you, Jessica. This was a great conversation. I really enjoyed this.
Jessica: Thanks for having me.
Arthur: you’re welcome. This was a good conversation to have and it brought up a lot of memories and things for me.
And it's really great to talk and to share these things out loud and just recognize,, where things need to be improved and how that's not always a difficult thing to do. I think that's the important thing to mention that,, changes can be made and they won't cost a lot of money and they won't disrupt your, you know, your lesson plan too much. If you're a teacher, it can easily be brought in as part of what you're already teaching and just adding a few things.
And, you know, to talk about disabilities a little bit more and to talk about them in the right and correct ways. And yeah. So thank you so much for joining me today. And I'm very happy that we were able to have this conversation.
Jessica: Yeah, thanks for having me.
Arthur: You’re welcome. Thanks.
Arthur: We thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast. This podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE. Be sure to subscribe on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts. And don’t forget to follow us on social media, @NJCIE. Until next time.
On today’s episode, I welcome my guest, Dr. Jessica McQueston. Dr. McQueston is an assistant professor at Sam Houston State University. On this episode, which is part one of our conversation, Jessica and I discuss the important role that higher education professionals have in educating future educators about inclusive education, and why it is important to use the appropriate language when discussing disabilities.
TranscriptArthur: This is the inclusion Think Tank podcast brought you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE, where we talk about inclusive education, why it works, and how to make it happen.
On today’s episode, I welcome my guest, Dr. Jessica McQueston. Dr. McQueston is an assistant professor at Sam Houston State University. On this episode, which is part one of our conversation Jessica and I discuss the important role that higher education professionals have in educating future educators about inclusive education, and why it is important to use the appropriate language when discussing disabilities.
Arthur: I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. I am your host, Arthur Aston, and I am happy to have my guest today with me, Dr. Jessica McQueston.
So, Jessica, thank you for joining me today. It is a pleasure to have you on and to see you again.
Jessica: Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm happy to be on here.
Arthur You and I, had a chance to talk a few weeks ago about this conversation.
And I'm really excited for the information that we will be sharing and discussing today on the podcast.
So to get started, can you share with us a little bit about yourself and tell us who is Jessica? And also, can you share with us how you became interested in the world of inclusive education?
Jessica: Yeah. So I'm Dr. Jessica McQueston, but I go by Jessica. I even tell my students something like just it's fine. I'm not concerned about a title.
And so I'm currently an assistant professor at Sam Houston State University, which is about an hour north of Houston, Texas. And so I just joined the faculty here this year, and so I was at a previous institution for two years.
So, definitely fun to start during COVID as a faculty member. Prior to this, I was a K through six special educator, and general educator. Even a literacy interventionist for a bit. I just feel like, it depended on the week, and what my job title was, and as special educators, I feel like that's kind of the name of the game we are flexible, we do what needs to happen for our students.
I also am someone with a disability and so I know we'll talk about language a little bit later, but I experienced disability about ten years ago. And so, one thing that I think is important is, I was always seen as like, I embraced this mentality of like, oh, I'm helping others. I don't need accommodations. I don't need support. And, again, about ten years ago, life happened, this diagnosis, that diagnosis, whatever. And so I've had to kind of adjust and, like, view my change or like kind of process this change of, like, accepting help and needing help and like navigating that.
Jessica: And so I will say, in the last like 3 to 4 years, I've really started to embrace my identity as someone with a disability and, I would say around that time, too, I started to kind of really take ownership and say like, no, I'm disabled.
And again, I know we'll talk about the power of language in a little bit, but, I view it as a positive and it's part of my identity. And I share that with my students, and with anyone I work with.
I'm pretty open about it, because I think there's nothing to hide about it. Like I'm not ashamed of my disability at all. So what really drove me to inclusive education? Well, it really stems honestly from my childhood.
So I went to school in Texas, in the Houston area, like my K-through-12 schooling. And we didn't really have students with disabilities around. And so I know, some of this is shifting, but students, especially with the most extensive or complex support needs, they were in a totally different wing.
Like they were not allowed, quote-unquote, “allowed” to come out and be with anyone else without a disability. I think there was this fear that they may get us sick or like they can't handle it. And I know we still see that today with segregation, but, really just seeing students excluded in schools.
And then I think what really hit home of why we need inclusive education for me was in middle school. My mom was a special education paraprofessional and I started volunteering with Special Olympics because several of her students were participating in Special Olympics.
And so all of a sudden, I realized that there were students that I had gone to school with, since I was like in kindergarten in first grade that I had never known. And they literally lived in my neighborhood. Right. And I had no idea they were the same grade as me. And so that was really kind of eye-opening to me of like, wow, this is problematic. Even as a 12, 13-year-old, I recognized that like, this should not be happening.
Jessica: And so what I started to look for colleges. I wanted to look at both special education and general education and specifically elementary education. Because of those experiences, because of realizing that this is still happening, students are still segregated.
And, so I ended up going to the University of New Mexico for their dual license program. So I was able to graduate with a general education and special education license to teach. And so I really enjoyed that because it focused in on inclusive education, and I felt like I could kind of bridge that gap between these like often like siloed communities in schools. And so I thought that I could help bridge that gap.
Then of course, then I got into schools as a new teacher and realized, wow, this is still happening. It's not just from when I was a kid in the nineties, like the early nineties, late eighties, and all that. This is still happening in 2009 is when I started teaching.
So yeah, I just see the value in it. I've advocated for that with my students with disabilities as a teacher, and so I just really am very passionate about inclusive education.
All right. There's a very long answer to that.
Arthur: It was great, though. And it showed that I always say it's so interesting how kids, children understand things a lot better sometimes than adults do.
As a child, you realized like, hey, wait, this is a whole group of people that live in my neighborhood that are the same age as me, that I don't know that I've ever seen before.
And like, what is that about? Like you had questions about that and that was that. When you said that, I was like, wow, like that's really wild to think about. And but the fact that you noticed it as a child yourself to say, like, wait, something, something's not right here.
What is and how can we fix it? And how can you be a part of making that change is really impressive to have those thoughts as a child and to really recognize that, again, something that's just not right about this. There's something that needs to be done.
Arthur: Yeah. So, yeah, I'm glad that you did give that answer and shared so much of your own story because I think, in sharing these stories, I say all the time, but the guests that we have, your passion, and your dedication to making the world more inclusive in education it really shows. And then, when you tell your story, it's like, okay, because you've been thinking about this for a very long time.
Yeah. So, like, it makes sense.
Jessica: Yeah, absolutely.
Arthur: It’s not just something that just popped into your head like, Oh, I want to do this. And it's like, no, you really notice the need for the change and, then you made it your career path and you're doing great things.
Jessica: I mean, I try.
Arthur: Yes, As we all do. Right?
Jessica: Yes. We're all giving our best
Arthur: So this season on the podcast, we're focusing on those in school leadership positions and how they can impact and influence the inclusive school environment.
So as a professor who is educating the next generation of educators, what role and influence do you feel higher education professionals have on the future of inclusive education?
Jessica: Oh, I feel like that's a huge question.
And. I really view it as like, wait let me backup. In society, we obviously know what we want, so many of us are, fighting for inclusive education, inclusive housing, inclusive environment and communities, And yet we still are having this fight.
And so one of the things that I think about as a professor is that we have that impact on future educators that are going out in the field and, can ultimately be the people that advocate for inclusive education for students with disabilities, and so I really view it as like we're setting the tone in higher ed.
So what we allow students to and when I say students, I mean university students, but what we allow university students to submit for their classes and how they talk about students with disabilities and how we perpetuate or address language on how we talk about students with disabilities. It really sets the tone for their career.
So if we as higher ed professionals, if we don't kind of set that tone, set that expectation and kind of address that, they're going to hear some negative remarks in schools. They're going to hear some outdated language. They're going to hear and see these things. But here's how they can advocate for it and here's how they can change.
Jessica: I really feel like what we do is so important because not only do we have the ability to change the future for a group of students like K through 12 students each year. But really, when I'm preparing pre-service educators, if I'm like, for example, I'm working with between my two undergrad classes, I have, I think like 45 to 50 students.
And so I'm ultimately impacting 50 times 25 students that they'll have each year, and so what we do here in higher ed, I think, is so important. Like, we're the starting point and we have to kind of open their eyes to the value of inclusive education and really being advocates for students with disabilities.
I also think, and most, many programs for pre-service teachers might only have one class on special education. And so, especially if they're general educators, they might have that one class. And so when we think about it, we have this one opportunity, we have this 15 weeks, this one semester to make this change, in how they think. Because, again, I can't control what other professors are teaching, not only at my institution, but all institutions across the U.S. like I don't have that ability. I would love to have a magic wand and just say like teach inclusive education and teach the power of language. Teach this. But I don’t, right?
Jessica: So I really think that we are the starting point where we set the tone for how they talk about students because we're not kind of fixing issues. We're like teaching them from the ground up.
And so that's one thing that keeps me in higher education because, yes, I do miss being in the classroom. Even with all the chaos the last few years, there are times I'm like, I wish I could just go back in the classroom. I really miss it. I miss working with the kids and I love it. And then I think about like, okay, but I’m not only impacting one class over this year like I'm impacting hundreds if not thousands of students every year because I'm teaching their future teachers.
Arthur: Wow, that's so true. Like you said, for however many students they're teaching each year, you have an impact because they're taking the knowledge that you gave them in their courses and they're taking it with them into their professions.
And again, you said, it's very interesting that you said they may only have one special education course, and they're expected to learn so much in just a 15-week semester when there's so much information there.
And you can hope that students will continue to learn on their own and educate themselves about certain topics and look more, to look deeper into certain things that are covered in the class. But just the fact that they only are required to take one course in special education, that’s a lot to take in. And as I said, in just one short semester, 15 weeks go by very quickly.
Jessica: Well, there are also programs that don't even have a whole class. My previous institution, it was just a few weeks of one class.
And so, imagine, we as professors, have to make such a big impact when we only have one class or only one part of a class. Like it's so important.
And so I just really feel like if we want to make this change. We talk about how many students are excluded. I know we had talked about this on our like before our meeting of how many students are still excluded and segregated from their peers without disabilities, and so if we want to change that, we have to kind of get this new generation that are going out into the field and really make this impact and really be strong advocates.
Arthur: Yes, for sure. And again, I just kind of like visualize what you were saying, you’re teaching this group of current university students, but then they'll go on to teach for years.
I know teachers that have been teaching for 30 and 40 years. So just to think of that greater impact that you have on, students and it's really it made me think of myself honestly because I also have a disability, and the children that I interact with, with my friends who have
kids and my niece and my nephew and just people that I encounter out in the world and the experience that I can give them of learning about my disability and what it means and why I have to use a wheelchair or why I have to use crutches.
Arthur: It can make them a kind person to someone they meet in school who has a disability and, not think that it's strange that they have to use crutches and they can think of me and say, it's not a problem. It's not a big deal that Johnny, in my class, has to use a wheelchair. So that it's all in the interactions that we have with people that can really have an impact on the broader community around us, and, beyond what we can even reach ourselves as just one person.
Jessica: Yeah. I also think about like, obviously, like I went to school, this wasn't that long ago, right? Like, well, maybe I'm a little bit old, but, the early nineties, like I was in schools and so like I think about like that's really not that long ago and that's still happening, right? And so we still know what's happening by data, and think about people who went to school 30, 40, 50, 60 years ago.
They had no experience with people with disabilities. And so despite their age, like if they just happened to be in a segregated kind of school community or state that has a lot of segregation of students with disabilities and like, they really don't have this exposure, this knowledge, this firsthand experience about people with disabilities or they don't know they have experience because disabilities aren't all visible. l present as someone without a disability, which I understand and recognize the privilege of having invisible disabilities, but that's not the case for everyone.
And so I think we have to also recognize and kind of have that conversation with people. Disability doesn't have a look, right? Disability can be any person.
Arthur: True that is so true and so, so important to bring up.
And something else that you brought up which leads into my next question is language. And I know I have been a part of many conversations, especially in the last few years. A lot of conversations have taken place online.
I was a part of an app called Clubhouse, which is just a big, it's voice chat. So you go into the chat rooms, but everybody kind of talks, they talk, they don't type anything. So it's actually you're hearing people's voices that really picked up over the last few years with the pandemic. So there have been a lot of conversations on that app and other places, and in the news, as it relates to language that is used, as the language relates to those who have disabilities.
A few of the conversations that I can think of that have been fairly popular are; not saying the R-word and not using euphemisms like differently-abled or handi-capable. And a big one is the person-first versus identity-first language. So those are all conversations that I've seen and have had with certain people.
So can you talk about the importance of using appropriate language and the effect it can have when we're talking about people with disabilities?
Jessica: Yeah, I think this is so important. And I think first we have to really recognize that diversity is a natural form of human diversity.
And I think when we recognize that, we have to then kind of normalize the conversation around disability. So I think for so long it's sort of like disability is like, oh, they're unique, they're special, they're this, they're that, right, because they're not human-like. And so we might think of them as like babies like perpetual babies. We are created to protect them and this and that.
And so I think we've kind of come a long way, but we still have a long way to go because, again, when we recognize it's a normal part of a normal form of human diversity, we kind of recognize that people's disabilities are human, right? They're not like this other.
And so, you know, I also think that disability is not a bad word. And I think so many people often think, oh, I can't say disability.
I'm going to say like, oh, they're handi-capable instead. And it kind of that I think a lot of people, including myself, we really push back against that because it's like disability is not a bad word. You can say it, it's not something to be ashamed of.
I know some different cultures have different views on it, but I think, it's important. Like I said, it's part of human diversity. People with disabilities have existed since the beginning of time. And guess what?
They're going to keep existing, Right? Like they're not going to disappear tomorrow. Right?
Arthur: Yeah. We're not going anywhere. We're here stay!
Jessica: We’re here to stay! And, let's also think about it throughout someone's lifetime, they have a statistically good chance of experiencing disability at some point in their life.
And so I, I also think, like one other thing that I think about is we have to kind of push back on these euphemisms and also like SPED like I think that's a big one. Oh, they're a SPED student.
They're in SPED. A lot of people in the community really push back on that and even go as far as to say it's a slur. And personally, I agree.
But I think kind of one of the big debates that I'm sure you've seen on Clubhouse and other apps is this idea of identity-first versus person-first.
And so, for a long time, we had identity first, but it was seen as like this othering thing, like, oh, it's the disabled, right? Like this other group of people, they're not included, and not us. And then. And then this like person-first language came around like, oh, I'm a person with a disability, it's a person with Down's syndrome. And that's great, right? It respects the human first as it's just the disability that is just part of them.
Jessica: And then I think in the last few years, this really there's really been a push with some people, again, not all like the disability community, not a monolith. And so there's really been this like push of like no, it's part of my identity is who I am. Personally, I've come to embrace it about myself that I'm disabled.
And again, I know not everyone uses that. And so I think it goes back into like choice, so there's not this like hard and fast rule.It's like, Oh, you have to do this or you have to do that because again, we're not a monolith.
So, we have to respect what each person wants. But I do think it's important to note that, like, we have some people that don't yet, they’re not able to yet communicate their needs. They might not even know that they have a disability.
If you have a first grader, they might not understand or yet be told that they have a disability, And so they haven't had that chance to kind of identify and look at their own identity and see what do I want to be called. How do I want to think about this, and recognize this within myself?
And so. I think it's just something to ask. I know a lot of my university students are like, oh, I would just want a hard and fast rule. And so I always tell them, to start with the person first.
If the person doesn't want that, they'll tell you or you can ask. But especially when you're working with young kids, like you should start with person-first. But again, just ask I think of it as it should just be a question, like pronouns, like what are your pronouns?
Jessica: If someone says they have a disability, then just ask them like, how do you like to refer to yourself, person-first or identity-first? But I, really, this is such a huge topic in the field, and
I think. Yes, it's very important.
Jessica: One thing I will say is that I think how we talk about people, disabilities or disabled people is more important. So are we using deficit-based language? Or are we using strengths-based language?
So I think about the school setting like a K through 12. It's like, I’m sure many of us have looked at IEPs and said like, wow, I just read this entire document and there's not a single thing that they can do in according to this IEP.
It’s all what they can't do. They can't do this, they can't do that. They can't do this. And so, yes, language not only relates to this, like identity first and person first, but also how we talk about people, and so we really have to be respectful. And again, it's part of human diversity.
Jessica: So people with disabilities are people. It seems like a simple concept and yet we still see that, right? We still see people saying like, oh, it’s oh they are just differently abled and it’s like no! Stop with the euphemisms!
Arthur: Like you said, it's part of diversity. And as the saying goes, I'm sure I've used it on this podcast and I know I heard it many times before. If you met one person with a disability, you've met one person with a disability.
So where you prefer identity-first language, I might prefer a person-first language. And that's okay. And I love how you said, you know, the conversations and how we're talking about those who have disabilities and is it a strength or a deficit-based approach.
And that really, truly makes a big difference.
Jessica: Yeah. Well, I think that can also frame so for me I just started kind of using identity-first language. If you were to ask me three or four years ago, I didn't.
So of course, that can evolve over time too. But there are people that I've worked with or talked with or whatever over the years, and they used really harmful language about people with disabilities. And so like with them, I might not use identify with them because you really don't understand that you are really thinking that disability is bad and it's only who I am and, that it makes me be seen as different. And so that's something else to consider too, is like where is the respect? Like, do they understand that disability is just a natural form of diversity, just like anything else? And, that can impact how we talk about our own identity and how we think about students, too, or how they think about students.
Arthur: Thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. This concludes part 1 of my conversation with Dr. Jessica McQueston. Join us again next time when we continue our conversation to discuss how an inclusive curriculum can be beneficial to all students. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and to follow us on social media @NJCIE, until next time
On today's episode, we welcome our guest, Nicole Eredics. During our conversation, we discuss how a truly inclusive school environment goes beyond the regular hours of the school day, and the importance of training educators on what inclusion looks like in real life.
TranscriptArthur: This is the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE, where we talk about inclusive education, why it works and how to make it happen.
On today’s episode we welcome our guest Nicole Eredics. Nicole is an educator and an author who advocates for inclusion of students with disabilities in the general education classroom. During our conversation today, we discuss why it is important that the school culture reflect an inclusive culture.
Arthur: I would like to welcome everyone back to a brand new episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast brought to you by the New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education.
I'm your host, Arthur Aston, and I am happy to welcome my guest to today's episode, Nicole Eredics. So Nicole, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm very happy to have you as a guest and to meet you virtually.
Nicole: Thank you so much for having me. I am thrilled to be here and excited to talk about inclusion.
Arthur: Yes. Yes. So, I start off the podcast with every guest asking a version of this first question. So can you share with us who is Nicole Eredics, and can you share just some parts of your journey of becoming an educator and how you became interested in the world of inclusive education?
Nicole: Of course, yes. One of my favorite topics to talk about. Not me, I mean, inclusion. Yeah. Born and raised in Canada. I'm a Canadian transplant. I live here in the U.S. now and part of living in Canada for much of my earlier years. I went to university there and I was trained as an inclusion teacher at the time, we didn't really call it inclusion teacher.
You were just a general education teacher. But our province, which is the province, British Columbia, had mandated that all of our schools become fully inclusive. So they took away the segregated classrooms and, created classrooms with children of all abilities.
And so, my teacher training reflected that shift to fully inclusive classrooms. So that's all I've ever known as an educator. And I did that, I was in the elementary system as an inclusion teacher, which is basically a gen-ed teacher with students of all abilities.
Nicole: I Did that for, oh gosh, about 15 years and found myself in Southern California one day and noticed that things were a little different. And so, I decided to put my time and energy into just raising awareness for ways in which education can be done differently and, serve the needs of our students, especially those with disabilities.
So and aside from that, in addition to that, I've got a master's in Special Education, and wrote a book a couple of years ago. So been busy. Yeah, but I do teacher training and workshops and all kinds of stuff. So that's kind of a snapshot, of who I am and what I do.
Arthur: That’s great. I always love hearing people's stories and to see how they arrive to where they are, and it's great that you said it's, inclusion is all that you really have known, and yet it was adapted, and adopted in Canada at such an early time. So that's really always, always great to hear.
So I did some research about you and looked up some things and some podcasts and things that you have been on and discussions that you have had, and I came across one of your posts that you wrote on your blog that was called How to Include Students with Disabilities by Modifying Curriculum in Three Easy Steps.
Arthur: I was drawn to the third step, which was to use instructional strategies such as deletions, substitutions, and additions to make necessary changes to the lesson. Can you share with us a little bit more about that, and give some examples of how this can be done in the real world?
Nicole: Definitely. Yeah. Well, first of all, the purpose of doing that really is to, of course, provide our students with the same content from the general education curriculum, which is something that we do in our schools. We're providing quality general education curriculum to all of our students, and so some of our students, of course, are not yet working at the grade level that that that their peers are working.
So we want to provide them with an opportunity to experience and to access and achieve that material, but at their level, they’re present or their level of performance or ability. And so what we can do is we can look at the content and the curriculum for that particular grade level or age level and then manipulate it to make it so that it's more appropriate for a student who is working at a different level of ability.
And so you can do that by, changing the educational outcomes of the activities. So for example, if it's a complex topic like plant biology, you can break that down and make it more appropriate by having this student grow plants, or observe plant growth, or take care of plants. So you're still working within that theme of plants. You're still addressing that content, but you're making it suitable for the student who is as I mentioned, working at a different level.
Nicole: You can so you can simplify the content. You can change those educational outcomes. So if there's a math question and the idea is to solve this complex algorithm, then you can take that and change the type of algorithm that it is, perhaps maybe using the same numbers or maybe using, an operation there or breaking it down into steps and outlining the steps for the student to solve the algorithm.
So it's essentially just taking, what is happening in the classroom and making some adjustments to it, deleting the material that isn't necessary, prioritizing content that we want our students to know and to be able to have and achieve.
So that's essentially the approach a very, broad approach to modifying curriculum. And it's just going in with that premise of, okay, what am I going to do to make this accessible and achievable for my student?
Arthur: I really love that because I, know for myself, growing up a subject like math was not my thing. So to have that type of adaptation to the lesson in such a way that I would be able to learn was always helpful.
And, or even just something just as simple as having another classmate explain something to me versus having the teacher explain it, all of a sudden it was like, oh, that's what it means. It was really much easier to see it in a different way.
And I love the example you used of the plant. If you're having a subject, dedicated to plants, actually having a person go through that process of planting a seed, and watching it grow and learning that way.
I could see how that would be very beneficial for somebody who learns in that specific style.
Nicole: Exactly. Yeah, or it was learning differently or has different educational outcomes that are more meaningful to them.
More appropriate to them, because, it's about taking, like you said, material and making it not just being able to access it and help the student learn, but also to help the student understand, right? And be able to think deeply about it and apply it so there's more to learning than just being able to read the material. You need to understand it as well.
Arthur: Yes, and like you said, apply it. That is so important. I'm so glad you brought that up. I love that you used that word.
So this season, it's our second season of the podcast. And this season we are focusing on school leadership and how those in-school leadership positions can have an impact on inclusive schools, and the environment in inclusive schools.
As you mentioned, you did write a book that is titled Inclusion and Action Practical Strategies to Modify Your Curriculum. And as part of that book, you discuss the role that school leadership and staff have in making schools inclusive.
Arthur: So, that is why you are on this episode with us today. So can you share a little bit more of that with us and how you feel that school leadership and staff, have an impact on the inclusive school environment?
Nicole: Of course. And first of all, congratulations on this being the second year of the podcast. I'm a big fan of podcasts.
Arthur: Yay! Thank you.
Nicole: That’s wonderful, such a great way to share information.
So school leadership is so essential because really, I mean, they set the tone. They're the ones that are the model or the face of the school community. And so, in my experience with school leadership in inclusive schools, there's a lot of conversation and a lot of behavior that reflects inclusion.
And I can remember, so many times our principal during staff meetings, and announcements, just reiterating the fact that these are all of our students. We're here to educate all of them, to provide them with a meaningful curriculum. How are we going to do that? We're going to ensure that they're involved in all school activities.
If a student can't, for example, attend a field trip due to mobility issues, how can we facilitate that? Right? Like, how can we make that happen? Or what can we do to include the students so that every student can participate in that activity? Events, all of our dances, graduation ceremonies, parent-teacher things going on in the school, and student leadership opportunities. It included all of our students, not just a certain population.
Nicole: A lot of those activities, like extracurricular clubs, and sports happened at lunchtime, not after school, because, we have a lot of students who use buses and that would eliminate their opportunity to participate if it was held after school. So we had those activities at lunchtime.
So scheduling was a big thing. What do our schedules look like in our school? And then of course, the resources to support that. How do we allocate staff and personnel? Because, inclusion isn't something that happens in isolation. It just doesn't happen in one classroom, and it's not the sole responsibility of the general education teacher. It takes a partnership with specialists, whether they're education specialists or, physical therapy or speech-language professionals. A teacher needs to have that collaboration in order to help our students succeed.
Nicole: So, the leadership is so essential because really, as I mentioned, they're providing that message. They're providing opportunities for us to follow through on what we say we are and what our purpose is as leaders and as education staff and then the resources.
So it's definitely it's not a one-time thing. It's not a one time. Like we're an inclusive school and that's it. No, it's a day-in and day-out, consistent way of being and behaving.
It's and it's so essential. And, the impact that it has on the school community is phenomenal.
Arthur: Yes. And I like that you said consistent. That's the key. It's not a one-time thing. It's something that is consistent and it goes on and it continues.
And starting at the top with the leadership is so important, and I love that you mentioned the dances and after-school activities and things like that because that's still part of the school environment and the school culture, but it might be outside of the regular school day hours of, the 7 a.m. to 3, or whatever the hours are at a particular school, and it's still part of that school environment, the school culture.
So those are areas that need attention as well. To be mindful of the inclusion aspects of those activities. So I'm glad that you brought that up.
Nicole: Yeah, and one other quick thing I want to mention, too, and I'll speak more about it in a minute, but also providing your staff with training. Making sure that they have the skills necessary and the knowledge necessary in order to facilitate and be inclusive because that training is a big issue and a big barrier to inclusive schools, the lack of training.
Yeah, that's definitely a priority in an inclusive school, is to have good training.
Arthur: Yeah. And as you mentioned, you do some training and seminars and workshops and things. So in your work, what is the most common challenge that you find teachers have with include with including students with disabilities?
Nicole: Lack of knowledge. I think a lot of times there are just some misunderstandings and there are some concerns and fear, but a lot of that boils down to just not knowing how that or what inclusion looks like in real life.
What does that mean? What is the impact on my schedule or my daily routine when in fact, inclusion, for the most part, is good teaching, it's just good teaching. And so teachers out there are already doing a fantastic job and they're already providing many opportunities for all students to participate.
But, there is that extra step that's required. There is just becoming more knowledgeable about learning differences and learning needs. So I really think that that's definitely one of the biggest issues that are the biggest barriers that I see is just having that, I don't want to say same mindset, just having that perception or misconception that inclusion is hard and we need to break that down and provide our teachers with the resources and the knowledge and the skills in order to not have it be perceived as being hard.
Arthur: Yes. Yeah. And I think it goes back to what you were saying about it being consistent. And, that can be very helpful with doing it more and engaging, in the conversations and to learn about what inclusion actually is.
Can be very helpful to take away that stigma and the misconception of it, of it being difficult and being hard to have inclusion in our schools.
Nicole: Yeah, it's actually a very collaborative experience, very rewarding as a professional, to be able to have the supports in the school for your students.
I could go on, but in the interest of time, I'll wrap that answer up. It’s a big hot topic for me.
Arthur: It is, and it really does need to be discussed and addressed.
So I'm glad that you brought it up and that you are bringing that to this conversation.
Arthur: So and also, another work-related question for you. So in your work that you do, have you found an example of student inclusion that was done well where the student had more significant support needs?
Nicole: Well, in honesty, I've had a lot of those situations and seen a lot of that because that happened routinely in my previous job as a teacher. But, one situation that stands out for me is probably in the early years of teaching, one of the students in my class had mobility challenges and was working below grade level, and had some expressive and receptive communication challenges.
And so, we really worked hard to ensure that she was able to participate in various activities, and we made sure that she did have a para-educator, of course, with her to help facilitate inclusion. But we made sure that the students were aware of her, not, everything about her, but just aware of her. Certain ways of expressing herself. One of them was that when she wanted our attention, she liked to hit the side of her wheelchair.
And so, once we explained that to the students, rather than seeing it as a disruption, they saw it as a form of communication. And so, they would alert me, Mrs. Eredics, so-and-so wants your attention.
Right? So it didn't become a negative event in the classroom. We also ensured that she could access all of our class activities and field trips. I spoke about that earlier.
Nicole: On one field trip, we were going to walk to a certain location and it wasn't wheelchair friendly, the pathway. But, we ensured that she got there and we had some peers accompany her. So she chose her friends. They went by vehicle and met us there.
So it was just, we really worked hard to ensure that she didn't stand out in a way that was, ‘here we have to help her', it was a very natural experience.
We tried to make it as natural as possible, essentially. And in her work was modified, of course, and her para-educator was just fantastic. She was very well trained. And, she and I constantly collaborated in order to provide the student with opportunities and meaningful work and experiences in our classroom.
Yeah. And yes, she was one of many different students that I worked with over the years. But she stands out just because, every child has their own uniqueness and ways of communicating, ways of moving, and ways of working.
Nicole: And, once we understand and we're familiar and we're aware of what our differences are in our uniquenesses are, then, it's no big deal. It's like, it is what it is, and that's how we're going to work with it. So yeah, that's definitely an example that stands out for me.
Arthur: Yes, I truly enjoy having these conversations because it always brings up memories of my own story and my own life of living as someone with a disability. And a few months ago I was in a store and I came around the corner, I was in my wheelchair, and I came around the corner going down an aisle, and a little girl, she was maybe four years old. She jumped back and said, Oh, that's so scary.
And her mom immediately got down on the floor on her knees in front of her daughter, and she said, no, it is not scary. She said that is how he moves. That's how he gets around you. Your legs are strong.
His legs are not strong like yours. So he has to use that, that's the way he walks. He has to use that chair. It just happens to have wheels. As soon as she said that, the little girl said. ‘Oh. Okay.’
Arthur: And when you were talking about how you explained to the students the student hitting the side of her chair as a way of communicating, then all of a sudden, the students starts saying, oh, they're hitting their chair, they want your attention. They need something.
Nicole: Exactly.
Arthur: It’s so amazing how kids just get it right away.
Nicole: They’re fine with it, because we all have our uniqueness.
And I mean, I had students, I can’t tell you, I probably had more students in my classrooms over the years who were”neurotypical” in general education, but they were leaning back on their chairs, tapping on their desks, kicking their, constantly shuffling their feet.
I mean, people, we’re human, right? And they all express and move and communicate in various ways. And it's just becoming exposed to that and being comfortable with the various differences that we have. And how do we do that?
Well, we interact. We engage with people and try to understand what it is, and what the root of it is. And even if you're younger, we're not going to understand that, but at least have people around us, people around them to support that understanding of the differences that we all have.
Arthur: So it's really important that we do talk about these things with the students in the classroom and in the school and just help break down all those stereotypes and stigmas and misconceptions about inclusion and disabilities in general.
Nicole: Exactly. Yep. And sometimes it's just a matter of giving children those actionable steps because they just don't know. Right. They haven't been exposed or they haven't interacted with anybody who has different needs, and so it's just giving them that language and those actions and behaviors and modeling for them.
Arthur: So I have one final question for you, and that is, we sometimes see that parents of children with disabilities, especially those with autism, appear to be more reluctant or adverse to inclusive education settings.
How is it that we can reach those parents who feel that a segregated placement has more benefits than an inclusive one?
Nicole: That is such a great question and it's a big one to tackle just simply because a lot of that is fear. Not knowing how their child will be supported in a general education setting, especially depending on the child's needs, sensory needs, mobility needs, and emotional needs. So having conversations, modeling what that would look like, ensuring that teachers have training, the appropriate training. Again, this goes back to creating an environment that is safe and is educational, obviously.
And I mean, outside of that, it's just really having discussion and showing examples and providing resources, providing staffing. And those are some big asks for both teachers and parents that requires an investment of time and energy.
It's not a quick fix, but as parents, I think we just really want to make sure that our kids are safe and learning. And if if schools can. Provide that. Environment for our kids. Especially students with autism, then I think you might see more parents leaning towards inclusive models.
The other piece of that, too, is having somebody having a parent or a family who has experienced successful inclusion and having them speak to the experience. Right? So they're being they're the ones that are validating and being kind of a testament to yeah when it's done properly, it can be done really well.
Nicole: So having a parent and a child speak to that experience, that successful experience that they've had, having the opportunity to see classrooms, the inclusive classrooms in action would be another one, encouraging conversations between the teacher and the parents setting up means of communication and sharing that that's going to be in place.
So lots of planning and lots of preparation, lots of reassurance, I think is really kind of the first step. And it's not an overly tangible one at that point, but once I think educators and schools understand the initial fears and concerns, they can start to have those conversations on how to address them and what the school can do to provide those supports and ensure that, the students are going to have a successful, safe experience in the general education classroom.
And I think it's huge when they look at that flip side, and I’m not speaking to every segregated special education classroom, but I think it's really important to mention that in our segregated special education classrooms, you've got a lot of students in there for the most part, with a wide range of needs, and several adults to support them. Those classrooms can be very overwhelming themselves in that aspect.
So, the general education classroom, Yes, there are a lot of kids in there as well, but it’s just it's a different type of environment. It doesn't mean it's bad, it’s just it offers a different level of activity and a different environment that may not necessarily be bad.
Nicole: So that's kind of my broad answer. It's a very difficult question because I think everyone brings their own experiences to the table and what they've heard and what they've seen. And it's hard, it’s a process to change attitudes and mindsets and definitely with parents to kind of ease their minds and. So yeah, that's my very long answer to your short question.
Arthur: Well, I appreciated that answer and I appreciated t this conversation with you. And thank you so much for taking the time to join me to have this conversation today. It was really, really great to speak with you and to learn about you and hear your background and all the great work that you're doing and the changes that that you've seen and that are being made through the work that we are all doing to bring inclusive education to the world at large.
Nicole: And having these conversations are so important and I appreciate the opportunity to be here and speak with you and a pleasure to meet you, and I'm honored to be on the podcast. So thank you.
Arthur: Yes, and thank you as well, Nicole, and you have a great day and we will be in touch.
On today's episode, we welcome our guest, Doctor Jennifer Spencer-Iiams. During our conversation, we discuss Leading for All: How to Create Truly Inclusive and Excellent Schools, a book she co-wrote with Josh Flosi, and why it is important for everyone at all levels in the school district, including the students, to be part of the inclusive education initiatives.
TranscriptArthur: This is the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE, where we talk about inclusive education, why it works, and how to make it happen. On today's episode, we welcome our guest, Doctor Jennifer Spencer-Iiams.
During our conversation, we discuss Leading for All: How to Create Truly Inclusive and Excellent Schools, a book she co-wrote with Josh Flosi, and why it is important for everyone at all levels in the school district, including the students, to be part of the inclusive education initiatives.
Arthur: So I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast presented by the New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. I'm your host, Arthur Aston, and I am joined today by my guest Jennifer Spencer-Iiams. And thank you so much for joining me today. Jennifer, it's great to see you again virtually.
Jennifer: It's great to see you as well. Arthur, thanks so much.
Arthur: Yes. Yeah. So you and I, we met in person over the summer when you were here in New Jersey doing a presentation during our summer conference for the New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, and I had the honor of sitting in on both of your sessions for that conference and learned so much. So I'm really excited for you to be a guest on the podcast today and to share your story with everyone.
Jennifer: Well, it was so much fun for me to get to actually trek back to New Jersey. I had the opportunity to speak with folks right in the height of COVID as a plenary speaker, but it was virtual, and the summer was so much more fun to be there in person.
I got to meet some of my own heroes and the work of inclusion there and get to know some new people who were new to me, such as yourself, and just to share that common vision of all students being included and successful and having lots of belonging. So it was really a pleasure.
Arthur: Yes. Yeah, it was. That was a fun, fun day. And, you know, it's great to meet you and so many other people and to learn all about your journey and your story.
So thank you again for joining us. And we can get started and into the first question, which is, can you tell us about yourself? Can you tell us who you are and what you do? And I like to ask people to tell us something fun that they like to do in their free time, which nobody seems to have much of.
Jennifer: Well, that's true in education. I think free time is quite limited. But I live here in the Pacific Northwest in the Willamette Valley, which is quite famous for its local wines, Pinot Noir in particular.
So that's a fun thing I like to do. I like to visit local wineries sometimes on the weekend and get to know the people who work there and their passion for cultivation and their attention to detail. And yeah, it's just interesting, their connection with the land and I don't like to drink wine if I don't know who made it. So it's a fun way to connect and really hear the stories of folk. So that's my little fun connection there.
Arthur: That's great. And for your profession, you are the assistant superintendent for school districts there.
Jennifer: Yeah, right now I have the pleasure of being assistant superintendent for the West Linn-Wilsonville School District, which is on the south side of the Portland metro area. So most people around the country will know where Portland is, and it's one of the medium-sized districts on the south end of that metro area.
And I've been there for 11 years and it's a terrific place to be a wonderful community. And it's been quite a journey to land in that district. But that's where I am now. And I get to support our high schools, support our student services, lots of amazing things that are happening right now in our school district.
Arthur: That's great. again, I sat in both of your sessions during that conference and just hearing all of the great work that you all are doing there is really impressive. And I always bring it up in the podcast, growing up with a disability myself to see the way that education has changed in such a positive direction for those living with disabilities. Those young people living with disabilities is really encouraging to see, and it really does make me happy too, to know that these changes are being made. And, it's just really rewarding to be a part of, you know, just hosting a podcast and sharing people's experiences and stories.
So it's great to know that you're doing that work out there in the Portland area. And I went there once and it was great. It was amazing. I can't wait to get back out there sometime soon.
Jennifer: We would love you to come. We'd love to host you. I think I appreciate you sharing a little bit about your story, your experience. And I think, you know, when I was going to school a million years ago, similarly, I had a couple of experiences around how we include or exclude students with disabilities. We had, I can remember in kindergarten, a student with some physical disabilities and differences being part of our class right from the beginning and how important that was and how it was just not ever questioned in terms of the work there.
And yet at the same time, there was a separate building with some students with intellectual and other sorts of disabilities where they weren't even in the school. And so I remember that and I remember the difference of what it's like to grow up with what is just assumed to be who belongs and what are the barriers that we put up or the beliefs that allow us to still have some students who ‘don't belong’ in many school districts?
So I think those early experiences that we have can impact us to want to push for change. But it's also one of the things that keeps perpetuating segregated schooling.
As people grew up with it that way, they assume that's the way it is. And so trying to interrupt that generational way that students experience school is a big part of this work.
Arthur: Yes, that is so important. What you just said, that our experiences can take us in one direction or the other. It can lead us to continue to leave things the way they are, because that's what people are used to. It seems to work. So that's what we will stick with. Or it can also draw attention to, like you said, who belongs and who you know ‘doesn't belong.’ Or that's how they would like you to view that and make you want to make a change in that in that way.
So that was there when you said that? I was like, ‘oh, my goodness. Wow!”
Arthur: So our next question is about a book that you recently co-wrote with Josh Flossie called “Leading for All How to Create Truly Inclusive and Excellent Schools.”
The book focuses on the why, the how and what of inclusion. And in that book, you share components of inclusive and equitable learning communities. Can you share with us just two of those components of the inclusive and equitable learning communities?
Jennifer: Absolutely. And I will take a moment and just give a shout out to my co-author, Josh. Josh is currently in Tanzania working at an international school and he is leading the work for inclusion there. International schools have not always been inclusive of students who experience disability and he is really doing the work.
He recently spoke at a conference in Dubai for Inclusive Education, so it's just exciting to see how when you really see the importance of this work and the different ways that we're all working together to create change.
So that's a little shout out to Josh there. And Josh and I worked closely together here in the West Linn-Wilsonville school district. And as we made change and started saying every student should be at their neighborhood school, we shouldn't have any self-contained classrooms at their neighborhood school.
Every student should experience belonging and acceptance in the general ed classroom, and with the IEP process, some students can have some differing levels of support or schedules or things, whatever it is they need. We can continue to individualize as students need those things, while at the same time creating general education environments that more students' needs are met in and without specialized accommodations or schedules or things like that.
Jennifer: So it's kind of a both-and there, and we started making the shift without necessarily having a clear framework that we were living into and quickly realized as we want this to be long-term, sustainable, and as we bring new teachers into the work, how do we kind of centralize the main things to be thinking about in every classroom so that every classroom is a place where all students can belong? And that's how we came up with our seven components of inclusive and equitable learning communities.
Folks that look at that will say, maybe say, they will likely recognize a lot of the principles in there. I say there's nothing there's no new rocket science in there, but it's how do we put things together and use a framework so that we essentialize within our district and have a common vocabulary to think about what all students need.
Jennifer: And you've asked me to highlight just two of them. I will say they all work together. You can't just do part of it and you need to work all together. But one of them I'm going to highlight one on rituals, routines, and recognition.
We just actually did some learning walks last week where we were in and out of classrooms. And one of the things we were looking at was the presence of routines, rituals, and recognition and how those can facilitate inclusion and student independence.
And it was quite powerful. We were in some third grade classrooms and seen some of the routines and rituals that were in place for literacy learning. It really allowed all students to engage because they know what to expect.
There's sort of a template of: this is the routine that we do. Everyone's doing that routine. And then within there, if you have a student who maybe experiences an intellectual developmental disability, you can build some things into that routine that allow access points.
So you're not reinventing the wheel every day, and so that the student knows what more to expect. It really helps staff approach this work of: how do I plan for all students with lots of variability around what students need each and every day?
Having routines that are familiar to students helps it be sustainable for the teachers and helps it be accessible for the students. So I think that's an incredibly important part of the work.
Jennifer: The other one I would highlight is relationships with high expectations.
So one of the challenges of the old model, and I started out as a general education teacher. I worked as a special education teacher for a while in a self-contained classroom, and I always tried to be inclusive with my students, maybe mainstreaming, quote unquote, into a classroom for part of the day.
But the students knew that wasn't really their class, that the special ed classroom was their class. And so as we shift this thinking and we have students really experience that belonging in the general ed class, they may also still work with a special education teacher, or there may be a paraeducator who's providing some supports, or an occupational therapist who's coming in to provide some some instruction or thinking or adaptations as we go.
But, we have to really invest in that relationship with the classroom teacher and the student who experiences disability because that teacher is leading that classroom, and so we have to shift some of the things that we do to allow that teacher to build relationships and to hold those high expectations that this student can learn. The student can learn at high levels. And I'm never going to put a cap on what their experiences might be.
So I'll give you an example of this. A couple of years ago, when we were early in this journey where it was now, luckily we've been in this a while, so it's very expected and our teachers are all connected to this work in really deep ways.
Jennifer: But when we were early in this journey and we had a student who had some significant educational support needs and had some significant communication challenges, and we were having him in a fifth-grade classroom because he's a fifth grader and he's part of the fifth-grade class.
The fifth-grade teacher met with us and said, ‘I'm open to this, but I don't know what to do. I have never worked with a student like this before,’ and the way this student was, especially early on, where he was still getting used to the rituals and the routines in the classroom. The way he expressed himself was pretty different from other students, and it was not in this general ed teacher's experience to have worked with a student like this before.
So one of the things we did was we got a substitute for that teacher. Because the teacher believed the paraeducator knew the student more than he did, which was probably true.
And so he just deferred to the parent educator on everything. And he hadn't developed a relationship with that student because he didn't know him. So we got a substitute and so just spent the day shadowing and getting to know this student.
It made such a difference. After that day, he greeted and connected with that student in new ways. He was not fearful of connecting with that student. He had some different ways of engaging. He had that ownership of this student is just as much a part of my class as everyone else, and I need some help from the learning specialist to continue to find ways for him to have access points to learning and shadow his learning. And so that partnership really flourished with that teacher and the special education teacher, the learning specialist. But what really shifted was the relationship with that general education teacher and that student and how it raised expectations for him.
And it changed the status in the classroom because now other students see that teacher connecting with that student as a human being instead of kind of being afraid or deferring. He really brought him into the classroom. So that's just one example around how we have to support and encourage relationships.
Jennifer: We all need that. We learn with people that we feel safe with, that we feel care about us and that believe in us. So every student needs that, and we need to empower our teachers to invest in those relationships and hold those high expectations for all students.
Arthur: That is so true. The relationships are so important. I shared on an earlier podcast: As adults, we can all think back to like those few teachers who really, took an interest in us and got to know us and understand us.
And for me, like, math wasn't my strong subject. And I can remember those math teachers that were like, “Okay, come in before class, stay after class. Like, we'll help you figure this out.” Like, we all have those teachers that we can remember from our childhood that really invested in us and got to know us and, really took the time to help us learn.
Arthur: So thank you for sharing those two things and especially about the relationships and relationship building, because that is such a valuable component to making things work and inclusive education and just in education in general, I think. I appreciated that.
Arthur: So our season for the podcast or I should say, our goal for the podcast this season is to highlight leadership roles. And as a leader in your district, what can you say that you found to be the most challenging with getting your district to being more inclusive?
Jennifer: I have to say it has been a challenging journey and the most rewarding thing I've ever done. School districts are giant cruise ships. You know, they are big organizations that have many parts and many people.
And it is hard to turn a cruise ship. Right. It takes planning. It takes all the equipment in the equipment room working the right way. It takes the people who are in the pilots and their captains of the ship moving things in the right way.
It just takes a lot of effort. And so. I know I have so many colleagues around that are in that work and sometimes can get frustrated when they aren't feeling the movement going fast enough.
And that's a good thing. We should be dissatisfied with schools that are not inclusive, and we need to recognize that it takes time, it takes effort, and be kind to ourselves as leaders as we do this work.
Jennifer: I think what's so incredibly important is that one person is not shifting that cruise ship.
It is an entire crew. So I have had the joy of getting to document our journey and to have sometimes been the face of some of the work. But it's not my work as a solo person out there kind of trying Don Quixote style to change things.
It has been absolutely teaming, teaming, teaming 100% of the time. So as a leader, you have to constantly be looking for how are you bringing folks in to the learning, helping everyone connect with their own why.
Jennifer: Because the great thing is with trying to make change around inclusive education is educators all went into this work because they care about kids. They all went into this work because they want to make the world a better place. So when you can connect them with, ‘Oh, my goodness, did you know that there's 35-40 years of research around inclusive education?’
Did you know that it actually benefits the students who experience disabilities and the students who don't experience disabilities? Did you know? So when you connect people with that way of understanding and give them permission to try something differently, to change roles to sometimes shift a unit personnel and it most people I'm finding that people get excited we get on board.
Jennifer: Our role as leaders to continue to highlight that continue to bring the celebrations forward help people develop that sense of collective efficacy, that we can change this because we are changing it.
So you can see those efforts. You see those efforts work and you reflect it back, which gets people more excited to keep on that change. It is challenging. You got to stay focused. You have to continue to be laser-like focused on the mission.
And there are many educators that will talk about things like initiative fatigue, like, oh, our district was committed to PBIS and now they're not, or we developed this new reading program and now we did it. And so there can be this sense of, Oh, I'll just stay in my classroom and wait this initiative out.
This, too, shall pass. It is critical that we don't think about inclusive education as an initiative or this new thing we're trying out. It has to be at the core of your district's mission as important as anything else that you are committed to.
As important as making sure all students are readers. Right. It has to be right there in the core. So I think the challenge is continuing to do that, continuing to bring folks into the understanding of why thinking about all the stakeholders that are involved.
Sometimes when people start this work, they're thinking about the special education teachers, huge stakeholders in this group, but not more important than the general education teachers. And what about the parents of students who experience disability that maybe in the past the IEP team has said it's best for this child to be in a self-contained classroom and now suddenly they're saying it's not! It’s best for this child to be included. So we can't be surprised that parents might say, wait a minute, so you're really changing what you thought. Yes, we are, based on everything we know. But equally important are parents of students who don't experience disability.
Jennifer: How are they being brought into this conversation about how this is a value add for their children? And I will tell you, I've had a couple of families that have reached out to me. We've had many families that have reached out to us of children who experience disability, who have moved to our district to make sure their children are included, which makes me both happy and sad.
I'm so happy to welcome families, but also people should not have to move for their child to be included. Should not depend on your zip code. So that's another story, but we've also had some families that have moved here whose children don't experience disability, but they've moved here because we're inclusive. And that's a powerful statement.
It's as families recognize the value of just embracing all students to think about all of us have strengths, all of us have things we're working on and learning, and we can do that work together.
Arthur: Wow. That is a really powerful statement that they're moving there because of, you know, that their child doesn't experience disability, but they're moving there for the inclusivity of your district. That is great.
And that's the world that we want to live in where everybody is included. And as a person with a disability, I'm right next to someone without a disability. And that's really great.
And for our last question, I think we touched on it a little bit already, but after I met you, I was really interested in the work that you do there. And I began looking up things about your district, and I read an article in which you were quoted as saying:
“Students, no matter what their learning style or why they are receiving special education, they need to feel like they belong with their peers. They need to feel part of the work. They need to be engaged and challenged, all students.”
Arthur: I read that and I was like, Oh my gosh. Like it's so simple what you said, but it's like, it's great. So I wanted you to touch on why you feel that it is important to have everyone at all levels within the district on board for inclusion, including the students too.
Jennifer: Wow. Yeah. And it's such a simple statement and such a hard-to-achieve statement at the same time. And that's why we have lots of job security and education, because the work is ongoing, aspirational in many ways, because kids, naturally, a part of their development is learning where they fit with the world, and that can sometimes be a painful process for any young person they go through moments of this is the best thing and this is challenging and do my friends really like me? And, where do I fit and who are my people?
And that part of that is that developmental road that students are on. What's really important, and as we think about being an inclusive district, is how do we have factors of identity, such as disability or race or home language, not overshadow that natural process that students are going through around trying to figure out where they fit with the world and how they connect with peers, and what are their interests and how are they developing.
Where we have those beliefs or underlying biases around those factors of identity overshadow and kind of derail that natural process of kids trying to figure out how they fit and where they belong
Jennifer: You talk about why is it so important to have everyone on board? It's just so critical. The more that we're in this work, the more I see the inter-relationship. So an example. Was thinking about our business office. Very early in this work you discover if people can talk about the importance of inclusive education and overall, I think money shouldn’t be a yes or a no for inclusion. Right. And depending on how you set things up, it could be more or less expensive.
That’s not the that's not the variable we're focused on, we're focusing on what's right for kids. But there can be some shifts in costs for sure. Some things go up and some things go down as you reorganize your schools.
And if your business department isn't fully invested in this work, there may be barriers to moving forward in things that you know is right. We're very, very lucky. We talk about and include questions about your beliefs around inclusion for every employee, every employee, our business director, our custodial staff, our H.R. Department, math teachers, grounds crew. Everybody is asked about their beliefs or at least their openness to inclusion and then helping folks find their connection to that work. So that connection can happen in a lot of different ways in our operations department.
Really shifting that belief and inclusive education has helped us ramp up when we need a ramp or, you know, sometimes when we need something. I think I told this story in the book. I actually saw this student, she’s not a student anymore, a graduate that comes back and is now in college. We hope we're going to hire her as special ed teacher soon. She uses a wheelchair. And she was very involved in high school. Just a student who really found a great peer group and really connected. And one of the things they do is go to football on the Friday nights.
Jennifer: That was part of her peer group’s connection is just being part of the student body and getting into those fun activities. And we had a stadium that was ADA compliant, quote unquote, but the seating that was wheelchair accessible was nowhere near the student section.
It was in a different space than the stadium. And she. She came to us and she brought forward why this was not working for her, and we were able to get our physical therapist, operations chief, and her and the building principal out there that evening.
The next day on a Thursday afternoon, looking at another possible solution that because the maintenance department was fully on board, they diverted all their resources from other projects that next day they built a new platform Friday morning. So on Friday evening, she was at the game with her friends.
And that matters. It matters that students are on board with this in that it was a big deal not only to her but to her friends, that she had accessibility. We've had students be part of our leadership team in this work, and I think we could even do a better job at continuing to think about how do we listen more to the voices of students in this.
Jennifer: I was on a learning walk the other day. We were in an elementary school and I had a student, I believe a second grade student, maybe third. And I said to him, Do you know that we're out here today because we're bringing some people from other districts, because in other districts not all kids are included in the same classrooms, and sometimes students with disabilities in other districts have to be in a separate classroom, and they can't be in the classroom with their friends and their peers.
And that student looked at me and he said, ‘What do you mean, in Oregon, nowadays?’ He was shocked because it has become so expected that of course everyone belongs and of course everyone should be in together. So I think it's critical.
I think it's ongoing work that in some ways the more you're in this work, everyone, it’s shifts that work. What I'm excited about is we're going to have a generation of students, in another year that will have never seen anything else but inclusive education.
And what does that mean for employment? What does that mean for colleges, universities? What does that mean for just our communities? When students experience an education, an inclusive world, how will they bring that out into their next steps as well?
Arthur: Yes, I'm so glad you shared the story about the student with the accessible seating at the football game. I was going to ask you if you could share that story, but I'm so glad you did, because it really is, like you said, ADA compliant means one thing. It just means that there has to be accessible seating. It doesn't say where it has to be. And, you know, and a lot of times designs just put them in the easiest place they can, you know, fit it into the design.
But if that's away from where everybody else is sitting, it's not fun to sit by myself, you know, at a game or something like that. So to have the student speak up and be comfortable enough to say something about it, that's really great.
That's fantastic. So that's I was going to ask you to share that story. I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm so glad she's talking about it.
Jennifer: Well, she is. She's just as I said, she's worked on our leadership team for inclusive schools. She's now interested. She wants to become an educator. She's in school now and is getting her degree and is coming back and is doing student teaching right now in one of our schools. And so I'm just waiting for the day when I can hire her.
She's truly amazing.
Arthur: That's great. And the other story you shared about the student you met the other day, and it's so interesting how children, like you said, they don't know anything else but inclusion. So when they see it, when they see that it's not happening, other places, they're just like, wait, what?
Like, I don't I don't understand. I've had experiences with that with my friend’s children who go to our local playgrounds that are inclusive playgrounds. And when I share with them, when I was your age, they didn't have these and I wasn't able to use my wheelchair on the playground.
They are just like, ‘Huh? Like you didn't?’ I said, Well, I was able to walk with my crutches, but it wasn't, you know, it wasn't easy for me. Like, but they didn't have this nice surfacing here, so I can really get around on my wheelchair. And you're just like, Well, why not?
Jennifer: And they're just indignant. Right. That's not fair. Kids have a strong sense of fairness. Yes. So when we can nurture and hope and include that disability in that same conversation, then they won't accept that unfairness, the challenges.
And in the olden times or sadly, in many districts nowadays, students are being brought into schools that are segregated, and so they think that's normal or typical. And again, I think there are for the adults who are still…
Back to a previous question. We talked about what's challenging in this work. What's challenging is the underlying beliefs because people go into education for the right reasons. I truly believe that they want to help, and help students. And when things are hard, it's easy to think there's someone out there that could probably do this better than I could.
Jennifer: So for example, back to the teacher I talked about earlier in the fifth grade class who ended up developing that strong relationship with that student. In the old model, that student would have been taken to a different classroom with someone with great expertise in supporting students who don't use oral language, who have developmental disabilities, things like that, and that was the model that we in this country engaged in for so long. Of you, General Ed teacher, you don't have the expertise. Someone else has the expertise. So there's still when things get hard because sometimes they're hard, right?
Jennifer: Sometimes we don't understand our students trying to express with the behaviors that they are expressing or we haven't found a good entry point for our students or they're not feeling very connected. So it's very easy when things get hard to go back to that model.
Surely there's someone else out there, some magical place out there where the student would be better served. And I think that is what continues to perpetuate segregated classrooms. I don't think it's nefarious. I think people that are in education, want to do what's best for kids.
But we need to take stock and stop thinking magically about this and really look at the data. And the data is, when we do it well, they're much better served in their neighborhood school, in the general classroom, with supports, variations, adaptations, schedule changes as an individual child needs.
But that magical thinking about when it's hard, there's someone else out there that could do this better really needs to shift, because it's not true. We look at the outcomes of segregated classrooms. They're not good. And so we just need to be honest about that.
Not shame people for having had those beliefs, but call them in with some honesty about what is true, what we are seeing. By and large, for poor students as we move forward.
Arthur: Well, Jennifer, I think you have said it all. I enjoyed our conversation today and thank you for taking the time to meet with me. And with the time difference, you being on the West Coast and me on the East Coast and making it work. Thank you so much for that. And I look forward to working with you again and talking with you and seeing you sometime soon, hopefully.
Jennifer: Sounds great. Thank you so much, Arthur. It's been a pleasure.
Arthur: Oh, you're welcome. And you have a good day and a good weekend.
Jennifer: All right, thanks.
Arthur: We thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast.
This podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education NJCIE. Be sure to subscribe on YouTube, Spotify or Apple Podcasts, and don't forget to follow us on social media @NJCIE, Until next time.
On today's episode, we welcome our guest, Bonni Rubin-Sugarman. During our conversation today, we will discuss the evolution of inclusive education and what motivates Bonni to continue her passion for bringing more inclusive schools to the state of New Jersey.
TranscriptArthur: This is the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE, where we talk about inclusive education, why it works, and how to make it happen. On today's episode, we welcome our guest, Bonni Rubin-Sugarman.
Bonni is a retired educator, a former director of special education, and is currently an inclusive education consultant with NJCIE. During our conversation today, we will discuss the evolvement of inclusive education and what motivates Bonni to continue her passion of bringing more inclusive schools to the state of New Jersey.
Arthur: I would like to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Inclusion Think Tank podcast brought to you by the New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education. I am your host, Arthur Aston, and I am happy to welcome my guest to the podcast today, Bonni Rubin-Sugarman.
So Bonni thank you for joining me today for this episode.
Bonni: Thank you so much for having me.
Arthur: You and I, I've said this a lot this season, but you and I met over the summer at the NJCIE conference and it was great to meet you in person and to hear a little bit about your story. We met at dinner that night, and I'm really excited for you to share your story with everyone here on the podcast today.
Bonni: It’s wonderful to be here.
Arthur: Yes. So to get started, can you just share with us a little bit about yourself and tell us who is Bonni?
Bonni: Well, so I am Bonni Rubin-Sugarman. I'm a wife, a mother, a stepmother, a bubbe, which is a very important role in my world, and in addition to that, a very new golfer and a lifelong educator. I began my career as a general education teacher way back when, and we'll probably talk about that.
And then became a special education teacher. I was a learning disabilities teacher consultant on a child study team for several years. I've done pre-referral intervention for a number of years at the elementary and at the middle school level, and I was the Director of Special Education in two New Jersey school districts.
I retired from my full-time work in 2014, and have been a consultant for the NJCIE since 2014 and have probably been with the organization for about 25 years.
Arthur: Wow, that's great. I love that you said you are a new golfer and a Bubbe. That's really fun. Yes. Yes, definitely. I guess it was over in the spring. I went to—not golfing—but to Top Golf.
And they're very accessible for as a person being a wheelchair user, I found them to be very accessible and very knowledgeable, the people that we were paired with to help us out. They were very helpful with showing me how to use the clubs and everything from my wheelchair from a seated position. So I've definitely taken a liking to that style of golf.
Bonni: That’s a place I have to go. I have not been there yet. So it's on the list to do that.
Arthur: Yes. That's a lot of fun. We went for somebody’s birthday and tried it out and it was really great. So that made me when you said golfing, it made me think of that.
So as you mentioned, you've been an educator, a lifelong educator, which is really great. Can you just share with us how inclusive education became a personal goal for you?
Bonni: Wow, thank you for asking that question, because it actually started, believe it or not, soon after I started teaching. I started teaching in 1974, and I was an elementary teacher in Montgomery County, Maryland.
And as you well know, in 1975, things started to change dramatically with the inception of the Education for All Handicapped Children Act, which was obviously the forerunner of IDEA. And in my school in Montgomery County, Maryland, that was taken very seriously.
I taught in a team taught, multi-aged setting with another general education teacher. So we had the classroom setting was actually three classrooms with the walls opened and a multi-age group first and second grade, and this school encouraged these multi-age classes, team teaching, open space classroom, creative strategies, small group instruction, and collaboration. All the underpinnings of what good inclusive practice looks like.
I had a remarkable principal who was way ahead of his time. As a result of this, after the federal law changed, we had many children who would leave our classroom and go to a recess room for things like subjects like reading and language arts and math and that kind of thing, and our resource room, where a special education teacher informed us that now she could come into the classroo,m and we thought, ‘Oh, my goodness, this is wonderful.’ So now we have another professional in the classroom with the children that certainly she was working with, and she was able to have small group instruction with not only the children that she was taking out, but children in our classroom who benefited from the strategies that she had in her arsenal that we didn't.
So when you think about that, and again, this is 1975, not only did the children benefit and our students benefit from what she brought into the classroom as a special educator, but we benefited as well.
Bonni: At that point, we were in the right place at the right time. Now we know we were doing the right thing, and you know, Arthur, we were building the plane as we were flying it.
We were trying to figure out for ourselves and for our class and for our students what would work best. There was no training. There was no road map. But, we knew in our heart of hearts that this had significant benefits to everybody involved.
And, at the end of the day, these ladies that I started working with in 1974 and 1975 continue to be my dearest friends in the world today. So that was an added bonus.
Arthur: That’s great. I love that it started so long ago for you. Like right away when you started teaching. That’s really great to hear. And I love that you said how everybody benefited, not just the students, but also the other educators in the room, benefitted from the special education teacher coming in.
And it's interesting to me because every student learns differently. So, the way that you may have been teaching something a student in your class might not have picked up on the material, but having that additional person come in and show a different way and they say like, ‘Oh, wow, I get it.’ That always is very helpful. I always think that, like you said, everybody benefits from it. So that's a really good thing to hear and to hear that it started for you back in 1975. That's really great.
Bonni: And it also gave us the opportunity to reinforce that we're with those students all day. Our special educator came in, certainly at various times in the day, and just through watching those strategies, we were able to reinforce what worked for those students.
Certainly students with IEPs at the time, but also our other students. So it was such a win-win.
Arthur: Yes, a win-win for everybody. That's always great when it works out that way.
Arthur So can you, I want to, I guess, talk about the changes that you have seen.
Being an educator for so long, how has teaching and the state of inclusion changed over the times that you began up through the present or until when you retired?
Bonni: Well. Yeah. I see those, to a certain extent they are separate but also that they're, the strategies, the teaching strategies and inclusive practice, certainly go hand in hand.
As far as teaching is concerned. There are probably three things that come to mind that have changed dramatically, I think, over the years.
The first is technology. I think we would all agree that technology has to stand out in terms of educational practice when used well, and that's the operative term. When used well, it is such an incredible tool that supports learning needs for all students. Certainly, students with disabilities benefit significantly from technology. And that includes areas like individualizing instruction, a whole host of accommodating our students and certainly communication.
So it has become and this is certainly we learned a lot during the pandemic, but of what we're capable of. And I see such tremendous differences in the use of technology now than I even saw pre-pandemic. Highly skilled at using technology to enhance their student’s achievement. So that's probably the first one.
Bonni: The second area that I think is UDL, Universal Design for Learning, which certainly didn't exist when I started teaching, but as a planning tool, when used well as a planning tool, it just enables teachers to meet the needs of a significantly dispersed population.
And that is how instruction is delivered in areas of delivery as well as in areas of how students can demonstrate their learning. So I think that's the second important change.
Bonni: Then also the importance of data collection. That wasn't something that was used well or universally necessarily, certainly when I started teaching, and how data collection informs teaching and individual student progress. You can't measure anything objectively, obviously, without good data collection. And I think teachers and certainly in their pre-service training, that's emphasized in so many areas.
So those have been three major changes, I think, in terms of teaching. And then in terms of inclusion, when I was thinking about this, I was going to say write books about this.
Bonni: So, I've been teaching in New Jersey since 1989. So it's kind of, that's a while as well. And although I'm an optimist by nature, I really am, as far as inclusion is concerned, I think many districts that I've worked in and that I continue to be part of have made significant gains in inclusion. So that's a good thing. But I also think that as far as we're concerned, in New Jersey, we have a way to go and our data supports that.
So it's reflected in our data, and there are areas that create a pretty significant challenge for districts and for schools.
Bonni: What I see is students with learning disabilities, students with ADHD, ADD and even speech and language needs are certainly included at a much higher rate than students with intellectual disabilities or autism and certainly behavioral needs. Unfortunately, in many cases where you have students who are included it is a result of an administrative law judge or parents who have been very insistent on having their children included.
And my experience has been that sometimes we are there as consultants with NJCIE, because of that. So I think that although we have come a long way there, there's work to be done when it comes to inclusive practice more universally.
Arthur: So well said. I’m 40 years old now. I'll be 41 next week actually.
Bonni: Happy almost birthday.
Arthur: Thank you. So to hear what you were saying about the changes in education with technology and UDL and those things coming, happening over time.
It's really been great to see, and as you mentioned, during the pandemic, seeing the capabilities and what we are able to achieve with technology when it works correctly, has really been great and it's really been great for people with disabilities and students with disabilities to be able to use the technology for educational purposes and to really, I guess, to really, be able to succeed using technology that is available to them.
Bonni: And I think, just to piggyback on what you're saying, it's about access, and for some of our students, technology has provided significant access to that general education curriculum that had, you know, certainly years and years ago we didn't have and we didn't have universally.
I think what's in addition to what we just talked about, I think the one of the additional areas that's changed significantly is parents’ involvement, in not only the individual student process and how important that involvement is and how more consistent parent involvement is. But also, parents having a voice in their district practices when it comes to special education and inclusion through their SEPAC committees.
Having had that experience as a director as those SEPAC committees were evolving was an incredibly positive experience for me and I would like to think added greatly to how we approached inclusion and other areas of special education needs in the district.
Arthur: Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that. That's a really good, good addition to mention for sure.
So we've talked about the benefits of inclusion and how everyone has benefited positively from inclusion. But can you share with us what are some of the things that make inclusion challenging to achieve?
Bonni: I think that the first thing and the most significant thing that I continue to see in many of the districts that I've worked in is overcoming a belief that a more restrictive environment provides greater academic benefit. And first of all, that's a myth.
And it continues to be something that people talk about, professionals talk about, parents talk about, students talk about, and there isn't any real basis or data that supports that idea because it's not.
I've observed students—and this is an interesting phenomenon—I have observed students in general education classes and then observed the same student in, say, a more restrictive environment or resource center classroom. And quite honestly, other than the fact that I can identify that it is the same student, there are so many aspects of the student's behavior, the student's engagement, and the student's motivation that is so different in a more restrictive setting. And when I talk about this to whether it be parents or whether it be administrators, and teachers, people still believe that the opportunities for that student are greater in the more restrictive environment. So I think that's one of the issues that probably are on top of that question of what is challenging for us in terms of moving forward and inclusion.
Bonni: So that's the first one. I think the second one I would want to talk to you about is the rationale for removal in IEPs, which is a significant conversation at IEP meetings as to why we need to remove this student in order for this student to benefit from this educational program.
And in many schools and in many districts, if you look at the rationale for removal, they're basically the same. People talk about the same issues. Pacing, they talk about small class sizes, they talk about repetition, the need for modifications, and significant accommodations.
And when you really drill that down, those are areas of need that can be and should be supported in a general education classroom. We've talked about special education being services, a group of services that are provided for a student, not necessarily in a place.
And I think that that's a recurring theme for many of our students. I sometimes say lower and slower doesn't mean better. And sometimes it’s more than not, conducive to educational progress for our students.
Bonni: And I guess number three, which I'm finding is a huge issue in many of our secondary schools, especially at the high school level, and that's how to design and implement curricular modifications for students. That area seems to be the continuing source of challenge for teachers and certainly for administrators.
When that area is consistently implemented and I'm speaking to curriculum modifications. What happens is, for those students, those modifications lead to more appropriate assignments, whether that be classroom assignments, homework assignments and then assessments, and then grades, they are all linked.
So when modifications are provided and they are provided appropriately, everything else kind of falls into place in a more consistent way for our students.
Bonni: So I think that's probably the third area that I would emphasize.
Arthur: You shared that, you've been doing this work for so long and you've seen a lot of changes take place and specifically in one of the districts you worked in Haddonfield.
Can you share what you see as a critical component for more inclusive practices to happen as it did in districts like Haddonfield?
Bonni: Well, I want to preface this by saying I was very fortunate when I joined the Haddonfield Administrative Team, and when I say fortunate, there was an inclusive mindset in hand. However, we needed to continue to enhance that. And I think that for me as a director Haddonfield was a good match. So we'll leave it there for now.
So what are critical components? I think philosophy and leadership are right up there, and communication. Communication with all stakeholders, certainly parents, teachers, staff, and administrative colleagues. Those ongoing conversations about where we are and where we're going.
The next thing that I think is critical within that context of communication is identifying barriers. What is getting in the way of more inclusive practice in your school district? And I ask that question as a consultant, I ask it in schools, and then I ask it in a broader sense, in a school district.
It's so important for us to try to identify what's getting in the way. And through conversations like what's working here? What are we doing that works for our students when it comes to inclusive practice?
I'm an optimist by nature. I love to start with that question. And let's get as many of the things that work up and on a chart. Let's talk about it. Let's celebrate what we do well. The flip side of that is, let's identify what's getting in the way.
Bonni: Hopefully, our what's getting in the way list is shorter than our celebration list. But I think it's important for all of us to agree that these areas or these elements get in the way of us moving forward.
Once we have identified those areas, then I think what follows in a very consistent way is training and support. Once we've identified it, let's do our best to provide more support to whatever group of individuals requires that support from us as administrators.
And that could be positive for behavioral supports, it could be technology, it could be curricular modifications. So many of the things that we've just talked about and co-teaching. So once those are identified and we implement this professional development and continue, it's not just one and done, continue to provide support in those areas to our teachers and our staff members. And that's through brainstorming, communication availability, whether it be our child study teams, our case managers, myself as a director. That ongoing support and the notion that I'm in this with you.
Bonni: If I were to talk about a message that I hope I gave to the folks I work with; we’re in this together. And that's the kind of thing that I think is vitally important when it comes to, you know, certainly moving forward.
The other thing is hiring practices. As districts, whether we do this in small groups or larger groups, depending upon the need and the staff members that need to be employed, I think that notion of an inclusive mindset is important. Somehow that has to be part of the process of hiring, the questioning and the interview, has to include the priority that the district has set in terms of inclusion.
Bonni: And then, you know, Arthur, the last thing I would say is stay the course! It can be a bumpy road. This was not necessarily a straight shot to where you're going. And, there's ebbs and flows and we're going to be taking some side trips and having some hard conversations. And those districts that have been the most successful that I've had an opportunity to work with have been those districts who have stayed the course during some pretty hard conversations.
Arthur: I think what you said is so true. It's especially that last part. It's not, it's not going to be easy all the time and they're going to be bumps and detours you have to make, but to remain focused on that goal and communication.
I love when you said that as well. That was so true. And acknowledging what you're doing right, and working on the things that you're not doing so well. That's all really important.
And I think what struck me the most in what you said was, it's like everybody is in this together. You even as the role you had as a director like you're working this with everybody, and, that's important for everybody that's involved to know that they have a leader, who supports them and is dedicated to reaching the inclusion goal, and just sticking with it until you get there.
Bonni: Thank you for saying that. And when I look back on my career, from the time I was a teacher and in the seventies, there have been instances where including that student, whether it be in the classroom, in a special subject area or an after school activity, has become the focus of a great many people in order to have that child be successful.
I remember, we had one student and if I remember correctly, at the time the student was a middle school student, and he had more significant needs and he was a runner. And he and his dad ran at home and through the community, and he loved it. And he wanted to be on the track team, and run with his, certainly with his peers.
And what we were able to set up for him, a group of us and this was case manager, the principal, myself as a director, we actually got on a schedule because the student didn't have support, in order to support that student needs, I shouldn’t say they didn't have support because he did, but he didn't necessarily have somebody who could run with him.
So we got together and talked about how we could support his need and be there to support him and the team, through running. We had actually been on a schedule to run with the track team through the community when they were practicing. So, for us, that was one of the highlights, and I look back at those times, and I say to myself how wonderful it was for us to have had the opportunity to do that with him.
Arthur: Wow. That's a great story. Wow. And it's one of those things that you recognize something that the student liked and you said, okay, how can we all become a part of this, and make this happen for that student? To make things better for them and you made it happen.
Wow. That's really great.
Bonni: He kept us all running.
Arthur: Yeah. Yeah. Got everybody active, right?
Bonni: That’s another win-win.
Arthur: Yeah. So to wrap up our conversation, it really ties into the last thing that you said there where, reaching the inclusion goal is not always a straight path and you have to go take some detours and there are some bumps and things in the road. And you have been at this inclusive education as your passion, as your career for over 40 years. What drives you to continue?
Bonni: You know something, Arthur? The same thing that drove me in the beginning, as in the beginning, you know, the ‘Genesis’ of all of this. And that was what we and I say ‘we,’ because, I think I have always been a ‘we,’ those educational, social, those community benefits to our students, our students, and to our school community and to our staff. That's honestly, that's the home run. That has always been the home run. I have had teachers say to me, he or she, meaning the student, has made me a better teacher.
I still get goosebumps when I see that, and honestly when a teacher says that to me. And in many cases, I have worked with teachers who have not had any experience with students who have a particular disability.
They don't have family members. They've not had a student who has had this particular need throughout their career. I think to a great extent, there's some fear, and ‘am I going to be able to do this?’
And when they discover that, how effective, how incredibly effective they are, because why? They're effective teachers, and they become more effective teachers because they have students who have greater needs. So that keeps my drive that keeps me going with all of this.
Bonni: And you know something, at the end of the day, Arthur, the great joy. Number one, the joy and the professional and personal benefit that my profession has brought to me as a person I will always be grateful for it.
I will always be grateful for this. And I have said to my own children, I hope you find that passion in the work that you do. I have been very fortunate to have found that in the work that I do and that is why I continue to do it.
And I am so grateful to be able to be part of the NJCIE community and be able to continue this work that we started all those many years ago.
Arthur: I love that you said it. It brings you joy.
I think that's what we all aim for in life, to find something, that we do for a living and to make a living, but it brings us joy. I think that is something we all should strive for.
And that is great, and I think that is a great way to wrap up our conversation today.
So, Bonni, thank you so much for joining me today for this conversation and sharing your journey of working in the world of inclusive education and for the change you are helping to make.
Even now, as a retired educator, you're still working in the field and consulting. So thank you so much for the work that you do and for taking the time today to join me for this episode of the podcast.
Bonni: Arthur, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
Arthur: Yes. So you take care.
We thank you for listening to this episode of the Inclusion Think Tank Podcast. This podcast is brought to you by New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, NJCIE.
Be sure to subscribe on YouTube, Spotify or Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to follow us on social media @NJCIE. Until next time.
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